March 25, 2025 • 46 mins
Empathy advocate and author of The Empathy Dilemma, Maria Ross discusses how empathy fosters transparency in leadership. Learn practical strategies to build trust, improve communication, and inspire teams by leading with empathy. Explore how transparent leadership creates stronger connections, boosts morale, and drives organizational success.
In this episode:
- How the definition of empathy has changed over time
- What empathy means in today's workplace
- What to do when empathy has been weaponized
- The 5 pillars of empathetic leadership
Show Guest:
Maria Ross is a speaker, author, strategist, and empathy advocate. She has spoken in front of TED stages and at top conferences and companies, and she’s been featured in NPR, Entrepreneur, and Forbes. Her newly-released book, The Empathy Dilemma, is described as “refreshing” by Dan Pink and a powerful “balance of empathy and accountability” by Dorie Clark. Maria lives in Northern California where you may find her sipping red wine, doing CrossFit, or indulging in a British crime drama.
Jill Griffin, host of The Career Refresh, delivers expert guidance on workplace challenges and career transitions. Jill leverages her experience working for the world's top brands like Coca-Cola, Microsoft, Hilton Hotels, and Martha Stewart to address leadership, burnout, team dynamics, and the 4Ps (perfectionism, people-pleasing, procrastination, and personalities).
Visit JillGriffinCoaching.com for more details on:
- Book a 1:1 Career Strategy and Executive Coaching HERE
- Build a Leadership Identity That Earns Trust and Delivers Results.
- Gallup CliftonStrengths Corporate Workshops to build a strengths-based culture
- Team Dynamics training to increase retention, communication, goal setting, and effective decision-making
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey there, I'm Jill Griffin.
I'm a career strategist andexecutive coach and I am here
today with Maria Ross, who I am.
Listen, I read a lot of books.
I read a book or more a week,and this book I was not only
highlighting and underlining andlike talking about, but her
book the Empty Dilemma, which weare going to talk about today,
is phenomenal and this is a realtreat everyone.
(00:20):
So, whether you're watching orlistening, I would like to
introduce you to Maria.
Hello, hello, real treateveryone.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So, whether you're watching or listening, I would
like to introduce you to Maria.
Hello, hello, thank you so muchfor having me.
It warms my heart when I hearpeople saying they've
highlighted and posted, notedand all the things on my book.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And yelled out loud yes, preach, yeah.
So Maria, why don't you let ourlisteners and viewers know a
little bit more about yourselfand give them a brief overview?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Sure, I am Maria Ross .
I am an empathy advocate.
I like to say, I'm a speaker,I'm an author, I'm a podcast
host.
My podcast is called theEmpathy Edge, and I come from
the world of brand strategy andmarketing, and so my whole
career has really been about howto help people connect and
engage with their audience.
(01:04):
Now, what I'm all about ishelping people understand the
power and the strength ofempathy as a lever for achieving
radical success, whether it'sfor your own leadership, to
build a thriving culture or tobuild an engaging brand, and
that's what I'm all about.
I give keynotes, I giveleadership trainings, I'm a TEDx
speaker and, like I said, I gotmy podcast, which I love.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I love talking to other experts.
Awesome, Okay, so I'm the nerd.
Like I said, highlighted pagenumbered, all of that and I want
to jump right in.
So on page two, which is whereit started, I was like you talk
about a bit around empathy andyou say a lack of empathy did
not seem to be the issue.
(01:51):
To me, it seemed that they hadbeen conflating empathy with a
need for more trust.
Take us through, tell us whatthat is in context that people
are definitely going to want tohighlight and bookmark this part
of it.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, I mean a lot of my work is about helping people
understand what empathy is andwhat it isn't, because there's a
lot of misunderstanding thateither burns us out because we
don't understand what empathymeans, or it causes us to shy
away from empathy in theworkplace.
So empathy through the workthat I do is about being able to
see, understand and, whereappropriate, feel another
(02:27):
person's perspective.
It doesn't mean you have to becrying on the floor with your
employees, but then you use thatinformation.
It's sort of a method ofinformation gathering of
someone's context and wherethey're coming from, so then you
can use that information to actwith compassion, and compassion
is really empathy in action.
What is my next right step totake with compassion and
compassion is really empathy inaction.
What is my next right step totake with this person?
(02:48):
It doesn't necessarily mean toget into some of the myths.
It doesn't mean I'm just beingnice because you can be nice,
but it doesn't mean you see mypoint of view.
It doesn't mean I cave intounreasonable demands.
Right, that's people pleasing,that's submission.
That's not empathy, that's notperspective taking to find a way
forward.
And it also doesn't meanagreeing with someone.
You can have an empatheticconversation with someone to
(03:10):
understand their point of viewand why they think the way they
do, and you can walk away sayingI really don't, I still don't
agree, but I see how you gotthere and so maybe we can find
common ground together.
So really, that's about helpingpeople understand that.
It is like I said with some ofmy very analytical left brain
(03:30):
leaders who are not too into theemotional side of it helping
them understand.
Hey, think of it as informationgathering, think of it as a way
to embrace curiosity, find outwhat's going on for someone else
, because you may find a goodidea.
You may find a good idea, youmay find an interesting
rationale for why they feel theway they do.
You might be able to address aproblem, a root cause that you
(03:51):
didn't see and that really helpsthem embrace empathy.
As you know, there's cognitiveempathy and there's emotional
empathy.
Cognitive is using your head toimagine what something is like
for someone.
Emotional is when you actuallycan share the emotions.
You're sad, I start tearing up,you're really anxious and upset
, my palms start getting sweaty,whatever it is, but both of
(04:14):
those things you can accessempathy through either door to
lead to an act of compassion.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
So you've said so many things in there, but the
one thing that's sticking in mymind first is the part around
empathy and compassion, and it'smaking me think that, you know,
empathy without leadershipgives you connection but no
solutions, exactly.
And then leadership withoutempathy is sort of that toxic
old power over versus power with.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And that it's that compassion and the connection
that we need to.
I'm guessing we can teach.
Like some people are born withit, other people we can teach
and teach them how to.
It's a very coachy term, but wewould say hold space and let
the individual expressthemselves without stepping on
them or telling them Right.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Or trying to solve their problems.
Yeah, and actually, you know,actually science shows we are
actually born with empathy.
So I kind of call BS on someleaders of not embracing their
empathy, because we're born withit, it's innate to us, it's
barring certain pathologicalconditions, that's outlying
right.
For the most part, humans areborn with it.
There's studies that have beendone on babies and on children
(05:23):
and we're born with it.
But for some of us, the muscleatrophies.
So whether we grow up in orwe're in a work environment that
doesn't celebrate it, reward it, model it, acknowledge it.
That muscle, just like anyother muscle, when we don't go
to the gym or don't work outwith weights, it atrophies.
So the great news is to yourpoint, it can be strengthened,
(05:45):
but it has to be moreintentional if your muscle has
gotten weak, and that justrequires you to really be
thinking about thoseinteractions.
Maybe it's not your standardoperating procedure right now to
be a good listener or to becurious or to be able to put ego
aside, but all of those thingscan be learned if you decide
that's the kind of leader youwant to be.
(06:05):
And given what the data and theresearch show about how being
an empathetic leader improvesperformance, retention, loyalty,
innovation, customer revenue,it's in your best interest to
try to build that empathy muscleas a leader, even if you're
like well, I'm just not reallytouchy-feely.
You don't have to be touchyfeely to be empathetic and see
(06:26):
someone else's point of view.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right, Right.
And you know, one of the themesthat to me was really obvious
throughout the book was thebalance of empathy and
accountability right.
That empathy and I think we getconfused because we have our own
opinions and then there's a lotin our face around media about
how to walk that line, Like,yeah, and as a leader?
(06:48):
Today we're hearing you know,there's a lot of discussion
around return to office, whetherI should work from home, the
hybrid, what's the rightapproach?
I'd love for you to explain topeople a little bit around how a
leader can walk that linebetween empathy and
accountability.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, I'm definitely pro both and leadership.
Not either or right so it's.
We don't have to choose betweenbeing empathetic or
high-performing, beingempathetic or holding people
accountable, and especially,being empathetic or being, you
know, maintaining our own strongboundaries, and I think that's
the false narrative we giveourselves.
(07:23):
And and it's really about both.
And how can I be empathetic andbe there for my employees and
support them to deliver the workat the level I need them to
deliver?
Like that's the part peopleleave out right, and so you're
not when you're trying toapproach, maybe an
underperformer, let's say, orsomeone who has an issue or has
(07:44):
an interpersonal conflict withsomeone else that they're
working with.
The goal that we need to keepin mind as leaders is we want to
up-level their performance.
So what needs to be done toup-level their performance?
We can guess, we can makeassumptions, we can say, well,
this is what would motivate me,but none of that is empathetic.
What's empathetic is tell mewhat's going on for you, tell me
(08:09):
what your vision is, tell mewhat motivates you, what are you
passionate about, andleveraging that to meet your
goal as a leader, which is toget the best level of
performance, get the best levelof engagement and, quite frankly
, if you want your bonus at theend of the year, you want your
employees to be operating attheir optimum level, and the way
(08:29):
to get them at their optimumlevel is through empathy.
So they're not mutuallyexclusive things of.
You know, if I'm empathetic,that means my performance will
slip.
That's what I hear all the time, but that's because of what you
think empathy is and notengaging it in a way where
you're understanding thatempathy is about helping you
both reach a goal not loweringyour standard down to the other
(08:51):
person, but helping the otherperson raise their standard up
so that the team can perform.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay.
So you and I joked before thisconversation that we were going
to be probably threading theneedle back and forth from the
employer to the employee.
Yes, so from the employee sideof what you just said, what I
know when I work with my privateclients or when I work within
organizations is the lack oftrust and transparency.
(09:20):
Yes, I've also been insituations where there is no way
I am telling that person any ofmy needs because it's going to
come back in six months in adifferent way, served in a dish
that I don't want to eat.
Say to someone who's like, butI don't know if I trust my
leader enough to share with them.
You know, my child's sick, Ihave an aging parent, my own
(09:45):
health issues or I'm justfeeling burnt out.
Without it being against me.
What would you say to someone?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, what I would say is, first of all, it depends
again, it depends on yoursituation.
And are you able to be in asituation where, if you had to,
you could leave that job for adifferent job?
And if there's some sort ofsafety around, I have agency to
make my own decisions about ifthis leader or this organization
(10:12):
aligns with my values or not.
Then my first thing would be tosay have a conversation and say
look this behavior or whateverit is, I have this situation
going on at home and bring itback to the business, especially
if there is a lack of trust andthere's not really a close
relationship.
(10:32):
Bring it back to businessperformance and what's the
shared goal.
I know that we need to deliverX.
Here's what's getting in theway of me delivering X.
This is what's going on for meat home.
You don't have to get weepy, youdon't have to get emotional.
You can just make a statementand say and I've been holding
out on telling you that to getwhat I need to actually complete
(10:55):
the project or get to the goal,meet the KPI, because I didn't
feel like I could tell you thatNow one of two things could
happen.
One is that's actuallyeye-opening for the leader of.
I didn't realize that youcouldn't trust me with that kind
of information.
Of course you could trust me,like let's figure out together
what we can do again bringing itback to meet the common goal,
(11:19):
right, I don't have tocompletely off track and then
start providing delivered mealsto your family or whatever.
I don't have to get into thepersonal if we don't want to go
there.
But if we can bring it back tothe goal, and that's where we go
wrong is we end up holding itin, holding it in, holding it in
until we do have an emotionaloutburst at our leader, and now
(11:41):
they're just surprised, right?
So that's one way it can go.
At our leader, and now they'rejust surprised, right.
So that's one way it can go.
The other way it could go,which I would probably place
money on a bet, that this wouldbe a minuscule percentage of
bosses, and even I will say thiseven one of my most
psychologically abusive bosses.
I know for a fact that whensomeone was in need of something
(12:04):
from a personal perspective,she was the first person to step
up.
So, even though her behaviordidn't engender trust and she
wreaked havoc on ourorganization, there was like she
had humanity in her, and sowhen someone did and I would say
because she could be the heroin some way, but and she could
be the hero.
Yeah, that's anotherconversation.
(12:26):
Different conversation, buteither way, you're saying even
in there, but yeah, and I'msaying it would be a minuscule
percentage of people that wouldsay I don't care, right, get it
done, because that doesn'tactually meet their goal.
So that's actually not goodleadership, right?
Right, so you know, take thechance of having the
(12:52):
conversation, but if you havethe conversation, keep it
focused on shared goals and keepit focused on how it's
impacting the work and yourdesire and your willingness to
find a way to find a strategy toadapt so that you can help
complete the goal.
That's a completely differentconversation than just falling
apart in your boss's office whoyou don't trust, right?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
It's also making me think from the other thing you
said about like having aconversation.
You know, I often suggest topeople that you took a job
because the data points that weknew right what you were going
to be doing, who you're going tobe doing it for potentially
shared values, the salary youwere getting the data points
(13:26):
worked that might shift right.
Completely For any of us thatwere working with an
organization pre-COVID.
We shifted in those earlymonths of COVID and many of us
are seeing a shift to what isthe next thing they're becoming.
So I think what's important is,just as your organization is
doing their own strategicplanning, you need to be doing
(13:46):
that too and you need to look.
You know what for a year or two, this was the right place for
me, and it doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with the place.
It means that your values haveshifted and you need to take
care of yourself.
Well, if you do have, you know,important things going on with
the members of your family orpeople that you live with, that,
maybe it's also time to checkin of what is.
What does the job look like, orwhat does work look like for me
(14:09):
now?
Yeah, it doesn't always have tobe that way either.
I love the concept of aportfolio career where maybe for
this time, I need to takesomething that's a little bit
different and I have the agencyto do that.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
I was just going to say.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Come back to another opportunity, another time.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, it's about remembering we have agency, and
this is why clarity is one ofthe five pillars in the new book
, because if you can be crystalclear as a leader and even as an
organization, about what ourmission is, what our values are,
what they look like in practiceand what we believe, how we
treat each other, then now I canmake a better decision as an
(14:45):
employee to say, great, is thiswhat I want to sign up for or
stay signed up for?
The company can run itselfhowever it wants to run itself.
They actually have that right.
And if they're making businessdecisions about return to office
, about job hours, whateverthey're doing, whether that's
(15:06):
well-informed or not.
That's sort of like what youand I are working with leaders
on.
But if you're talking to anemployee, they've clearly stated
what's happening.
You can give feedback, you cangive it constructively, you can
give it in a way.
That's here's why this is againgoing to impact the work.
If they don't budge, they don'thave to.
So now it's on you to have someagency.
(15:28):
If you are not necessarilytrying to change them now you
have to figure out is this aplace where I still want to be,
and that doesn't have to be acontentious conversation.
This is like my whole point,where it's like if you're a
leader and someone's coming toyou demanding I don't want to
come back into the office fourdays a week, the empathetic
response as a leader is to say Ihear you and I understand.
(15:49):
I understand that this might bedifficult for you in this
season, as you're talking aboutof your career, your life, I get
it and it might not be theplace for you anymore.
You're right, it might notalign with your values and your
needs right now.
So what can I do to support youto move on?
What can I do to support you tofind a different role?
How can I?
Can I provide references?
Can I provide some contacts foryou?
(16:10):
It doesn't have to be anargument.
It doesn't have to be likeultimatum slamming doors, like
it can be an empatheticconversation.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
And what I was reading and the part again it
gets right in there on pagethree going about empathy being
weaponized, which I want to diginto a bit.
But what I was reading thereand you know, if you talk to
people who are in a return tooffice situation that are
unhappy about it, is they reallythink that they are going to
(16:40):
win.
So the thing and and look, Iwant you to win, but I also
respect that an organization hasbeen able to say our values,
our productivity, our creativity, our innovation, it's slipped,
it's fallen.
We need to have you all comeback in, if that's, you know
what their needs are.
But in that conversation, if Igo to you and say this doesn't
(17:01):
work for me, I think what I'mhearing is the shock from the
employee.
When an empathetic leader saysI'm so sorry to hear that.
How can I help you exit withgrace and excellence, that
they're expecting to win, yeah,to your point, as if it's an
argument and look, sometimes youwill and, like I'm rooting for.
But the company also gets tomake a decision to their how
(17:25):
they want to run, and I thinkthat's a bit of the challenge
that I'm thinking is thatthere's a lot of people.
There's a large organizationthat you and I both know that
has their employees writing apetition right now trying to
overturn the return to officefor four days a week, and I
don't know how many thousands ofpeople are on it, but it's a
(17:45):
small percentage based on thenumbers of employees that they
have idea that in this market atthis time, with our current
level of workplace dynamics,that I think a lot of these
people think that their seatisn't going to be quickly filled
(18:06):
.
We know that there are peoplewho are ready and willing and
able to do those jobs and stepin roles and that would be easy
and unfortunate.
But I mean, I'm sure from yourside of the table you're seeing
a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I am, and you know.
This is where now I'm going to.
I'm going to talk to theleaders and the companies here
of that.
You know.
We need to remember thatinnovation doesn't happen inside
four walls, like we proved it.
We proved it during thepandemic, when we had to that
your company could still operate, it could still produce, and
there's so many benefits toopening up the talent pool,
(18:42):
being able to retain employeesthat otherwise wouldn't have
been able to keep working.
Moms who have to deal withtheir kids, or people dealing
with elder care or whatever,having a disability all of those
things are good, and so I would.
You know, the one side of mymouth is like are you sure you
really want to do this?
Like, why are you doing it?
If you're doing it because yourleaders are scared and they
(19:04):
don't know how to lead peopleunless they can see them, then
that's a problem.
That's on you.
You guys need to work on that.
If you're doing this becausethere's legal requirements,
because there's, you know, likeyou said, productivity has been
slipping, all of these thingsthen yeah, that could be a good
decision.
So I would say make sure you'remaking this decision from the
(19:25):
right place and not just because, oh, you had your fun being
treated like humans during thepandemic.
Now it's time to get back towork, because I'm scared as a
leader that if I can't see you,you're not doing the work and I
don't know how to lead in ahybrid and remote environment
and I don't want to learn.
That's not an excuse to bringeverybody back to work.
So that's the argument I havebehind closed doors with leaders
(19:46):
, right.
But then when I'm talking tothe employees, it's also they're
telling you how they're goingto move forward.
They're telling you what theyneed and how they want to
operate their company and theirculture.
Now you have a decision to makeand somehow if those two things
can meet in the middle but withyour work too, it depends on the
company, it depends on theindustry, it depends on the role
(20:07):
, and this is why I had a greatconversation on my podcast with
the head of HR at Box, the filesharing company, and what I
loved about their approach isthey said no one knows the
answer.
There's no one right answer forevery company she's like.
So we're experimenting, we'retrying different models, we're
trying different things.
We're trying a few days back inthe office, a few days out.
(20:29):
We're doing a lot of listening,we're getting a lot of feedback
, we're making tweaks.
That's the mindset we need tohave, like a design thinking
mindset, when it comes to returnto office, and we need to look
at what is driving the decision,because if it's because the
leaders just don't want to deal,that's not an excuse.
(20:51):
Or because I have a buildingwith rent to pay and I need or I
have a building with rent topay, like, my husband joined a
company in the pandemic where alot of their workforce was
remote anyway, but they werelike, yeah, we're letting the
lease lapse.
This is ridiculous.
We clearly can produce andinnovate.
Now you can be strategic aboutwhen you bring people together
in person.
(21:11):
Right, we are wired to be inperson and touch and see and
read body language and all ofthat.
So be strategic.
Do you need to be in person andtouch and see and, like you
know, read body language and allof that?
So be strategic.
Do you need to be in the sameoffice every day for status
calls every week?
You don't, right.
Right, you need to be togetherwhen you're doing a, you know, a
yearly strategic planningsession or a quarterly review.
Yes, of course.
So be be intentional andstrategic about when you get
(21:33):
people together, if that's yourconcern.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yes, and I think also the thing that I've seen most
recently and I don't know thatthey would want to be named, so
I'm not going to name thecompany they are in the
financial space and what theyhave done really, really well is
you are in the office for oneweek a quarter and what they do
is it's conjoining teams, so itmight be that the engineering
(21:57):
team and the product team arealigned, and from Monday through
Friday, for that quarter youwere in the office.
Oh, I like that.
I think there's some balance ofdepending on proximity, whether
or not you're commuting,whether or not you're getting a
stipend for the hotel room, butyou were in the office.
So you know, then the next weekit might be finance and
marketing.
So you know, then the next weekit might be finance and
(22:17):
marketing the next week, so thatyou, it is one week of full
working, full connection.
Your nights are not your nights,your nights are team dinners
and then we will see you inthree months.
Yeah, so that it is giving thebalance of because, even coming
in that one day a week we'vealso heard so many people talk
about I come in but then I siton a Zoom call.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
But the office is empty.
Exactly also heard so manypeople talk about I come in but
then I sit on a Zoom call.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
The office is empty, exactly, exactly.
Which would be maddening if Ijust made a two-hour commute in,
so I think that model of whatI'm hearing, and they're in
their third year of that andthat seems working well and
again you get the immersive withyour Zoom, and then we'll see
in 13 more weeks.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And I have a question for you, like if we can have a
little little back and forth onthis.
One of the things I have heardabout the negative is which is
kind of shocking is that andkind of shocking and kind of not
is that there are many Gen Z,younger millennials especially
those who don't have familiesyet they don't have families of
their own who are wanting to beback in the office because it's
(23:23):
their social system, and I canattest I made all my best
friends at work.
When I was in my 20s.
I met my husband at work.
There's something to be said,and so they feel like they're
not getting the FaceTime and theserendipity and the social
interaction that you get in anoffice.
I'm wondering, you know and Ihaven't looked into enough
reports on this, but I hearthese little anecdotes here and
(23:47):
there what are you seeing aroundthat?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, it's definitely nuanced.
So for our listeners, this isnot fact, this is not data, this
is not statistics.
This is what we're seeing inour own bubbles.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yes, exactly, exactly .
Yeah, I don't have a date, Idon't have a report to point out
to you.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, but I think it also comes back to the age of
the children in the household orthe age of the aging parent and
proximity to where that agingparent is to the worker Right.
So that's where, if I was tosummarize, so it is exactly true
that that the that based on GenX.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Like the early in their career people, the people
who it's like their first jobyeah, First jobs.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
They there's some of them because of their college
experience with COVID.
They don't even know what thepotential is that they're
missing.
So I'm sorry and I hope thatyou get that some point but if
it wasn't for, like you said,some of your best friends and
even today, some of my closestfriends, if it wasn't for those
people, the network that Icreated, my COVID experience
(24:52):
would have been a lot morementally damaging to me, a lot
harder.
I had 20 years of working andmeeting people and, like every
day, called two or three peoplejust to connect right.
So that's there.
And there is something aboutmaking a relationship that's not
just through social media right, making a relationship because
you sat in the workstation orthe cube farm or a period table
(25:16):
and working together and beingin proximity.
So I'm seeing that the peoplewhose obligations are less want
to come in.
And especially, we know thattwo out of three relationships
start.
Romantic relationships startbecause of the office, and I
don't mean that in aninappropriate way, meaning I
introduced you to one of myfriends who works someplace else
, but you met that personbecause we all went out for
happy hour together or we wenton a weekend Right.
(25:38):
So that part and where I look atit is from a loneliness.
If we know that they do, thatloneliness is to a level that is
worse than smoking.
And if we're young people, andeven if they are living with
their parents because ofeconomic or choice.
If they're still alone all day,working all day in front of a
screen and not having any output, you can see where, like a
(25:59):
workplace, could really do theirhead and heart to well.
So I'm seeing it's that younger.
And then I'm seeing on theother side again, it depends on
the age of the children.
But if you're on the older side, where your children are more,
they have more agency andthey're more functioning on
their own and you're like, wait,so my life is sitting at a desk
and then sitting at the kitchentable and then going to bed and
starting it again.
(26:20):
You're like, no, I would loveto.
You know, I want to gosomewhere.
Yeah, let's, let's meet inperson.
Let's, let's meet.
So I, I think and again, don'tknow statistically I think those
of us that have had it see thebenefits of it.
Those of us that haven't had itdon't understand what the
benefit could be.
It's not a right or wrong thing, but you see that, you know
(26:44):
it's that middle tier that havechildren, I'm going to say, that
are elementary school andyounger, that are like you have
no idea the pressure on me to beable to make this work, and we
know that that's absolutely true.
We also know from you know Iidentify with a disability we
also know from a disabilitystandpoint that when you are
able to hire the person who isdisabled, you raise the whole
(27:05):
family, because otherwise thefamily has to use their own
resources to help the person whocan't get a job.
And if you have to, if there isa physical disability and
therefore you have to go into anoffice that can also be
challenging, no-transcript andthe money and then an
(27:46):
opportunity to almost likeon-ramp and off-ramp into areas
Again it's sort of a dream.
I don't know that it wouldhappen, but to me that feels
like it would fulfill the needs,and you understand that there
are trade-offs if you're notever coming into an office when
the company is requiring you tobe in an office For sure.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I mean.
I think this is like all ofthis is solvable with empathetic
leadership, because the wholepoint is have conversations, get
curious, ask for your peoplewhat's working for them and
what's not right.
And you can do that team byteam.
You can do that if you're asmall enough company.
But the point is, I think whata lot of leaders are trying to
(28:25):
do is who's figured it out?
I'm going to do what they'regoing to do and no one's figured
it out, because it's differentdepending on your company,
depending on your industry,depending on what city you're in
, whether you're in the suburbsor in the city proper, whether
you have public transportationavailable or not.
There's so many factors.
So there's no easy pill toswallow.
(28:46):
It's going to have to beconversations, listening
sessions, what do my best peopleneed?
What do they want?
How can we structure this andwhat can we test and tweak as we
go along.
And I know that sounds like alot of effort when you're like,
okay, well, when are we going toactually get our work done?
But this is what I say to everyleader and, believe me, I've
(29:06):
led teams like I get it.
But this is why you're a leaderand you're not a doer.
The whole point is that you'releading people, yes, not just
managing tasks.
So it you know, I hate to sayit, but it's it.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
That is the work, right now, yeah, and I think
it's also important forcompanies and whoever is
responsible for training,upskilling and learning and
development in differentorganizations A hundred percent.
But it's also important thatjust because you are a subject
matter expert does not mean thatyou are the right leader 100%,
(29:41):
and we need to either upskillyou, train you to understand
leadership and I see thishappening a lot in sales where
somebody in sales is a topfinancial performer, they get
tapped to lead the team.
Yeah, suddenly, not only dothey not know how to lead the
team, but they're competingagainst their team because
they're still holding a number.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Exactly Because the skills they needed to be a
successful salesperson are verymuch individualistic, not
collaborative.
And then now, all of a sudden,you get promoted to a position
where you need to fostercollaboration, camaraderie,
support.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
But you got a number, they didn't take away your
number, so you're exactly sharpelbow with the person that's
reporting to you and then theycall me and we have
conversations and executivespeaking, all of that, but so
okay.
So two things I want to touchon.
One is I do because it was juicyI want you to talk about the
(30:35):
empathy hijacking concept,because this is the one that I
really was yelling out and thenjust to let our listeners know
is I want you to touch on thefive pillars and then I want to
get on like two of them.
Okay, great, great, yeah.
Tell everybody about thisempathy hijacking.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So empathy hijacking is something I experienced very
starkly when and we were talkingabout this earlier I almost
died from a brain aneurysm in2008.
And I luckily survived.
I'm so fortunate I had such amiraculous recovery and I'm high
functioning now.
I deal with my own cognitivedeficits, but I find strategies
(31:14):
around them.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
That's why we get along so well.
That's why we get along.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
We're both brain people yes, exactly, brain
people, but anyway, the desirefor people to connect.
They think it's empathetic whenthey say, oh, I know exactly
how you feel, because one timethis thing happened to me and
here's what I did and here's howit impacted me, yada, yada,
yada.
We're doing that with the bestof intentions, you know, like it
(31:40):
was happening to me of like Iknow how you feel.
I can't remember anythingeither and I have to write
everything down and great, Iwasn't like that, like two
months ago, like it's differentyeah exactly what it does is
number one.
It, instead of being empatheticand letting the person talk or
vent or feel what they feel, itkind of silences the feelings,
(32:04):
right.
The other form of this well, atleast right the fires in LA.
Well, at least your family'sall safe.
I still have trauma.
My house just burned down.
I'm still having trauma, rightLike.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I don't need.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Pollyanna right now, Right.
But empathy hijacking is againdone with all good intentions to
make people feel like they'renot alone.
But what it does is itde-centers the narrative from
the person that needs theempathy now to you.
And now you're also in advicegiving mode and they might not
be ready for advice right now.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
The better thing is to ask for consent.
Excuse me a second the pointthat you said around the houses
burning in LA, I think also forlisteners that are in the
workplace when your colleaguehas gone through a loss, and
whether it's a pregnancy, aparent, a family member, a pet,
it's the same thing where you.
I see this happening a lot,where instantly it's like, oh
(32:57):
well, when my insert person died, dah, dah, dah, dah dah, and
it's like that person has justgone through a major grief.
Yeah, two ears, one mouth.
Use them proportionally, shush.
This is not the time to beletting.
Let them have the space toexpress, and I just want to say
that because I think aroundgrief and bereavement it's
especially egregious.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yes, yes, for sure and I think that's the point is
that again it's done with goodintentions of I'm trying to make
this person feel less alone orless like something's wrong.
I want to take away their pain,right, so I go into telling
them my story or problem solvingfor them, and now I've just
taken away their ability toprocess, their ability to speak
(33:40):
or have space, or you know, nowit's about me.
So we want to avoid empathyhijacking and so there's a time
and a place where you can sayyou know, this must be really
tough for you and you know, I'mhappy to share what I went
through when, whatever, whenyou're ready to hear it and they
may come to you later.
Of like, yeah, I'm ready, I'mhappy to share what I went
(34:00):
through when, whatever, whenyou're ready to hear it and they
may come to you later.
Of like, yeah, I'm ready, I'mready for some advice.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I'd like to hear what you did or how you solved this
problem.
Right, right, yes, beautifully.
I mean it's like I want tounderline and highlight when
we're in the office and we're ina workplace, we do have these
false, like formed relationshipsthat sometimes they might be
legitimate friendships,sometimes they might just be
friendly relationships.
So you don't want to put yoursmall intestines on the table,
you don't want the world to know, but at the same time you're
(34:25):
like grieving over or whatever,this situation.
Yeah, right, you're in a placeand having someone I sometimes
call them conversationalnarcissists but this idea of
like redirecting back to yourexperience and we have to
remember we don't all have thesame socioeconomic background
you also might be at a differentpay scale, where you're able to
(34:45):
hire that person to help youwith that thing, where I'm not
in that situation right.
Just understanding the differentlayers and nuances.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
The best phrase I heard during the pandemic was we
might all be in the same storm,but we're not in the same boat,
and that's what we have toremember for any trauma, any
ordeal, any issue that someone'shaving is it might be the same
storm, but they're in adifferent boat.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And I love what you said about saying.
You know I can relate to thatand at some point, if you ever
want to talk about how I managedit, I'm here for you.
Just something like that is away to validate what they're
saying, but not bring it onyourself.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Right after I really started researching empathy,
that the appropriate responsewhen someone shares something
tough or terrible or whatever isjust to say, yeah, that sounds
really tough, and that's evenwhen I've had friends that have
lost parents, for example.
I'll even.
You know, there's nothing I cansay.
(35:51):
This sucks.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
This is terrible, right, and they're like yeah,
and we feel like we don't wantto say that because we think
we're going to send them into adownward spiral.
They're already in the downwardspiral.
They want to be acknowledged,they want to know that they're
not losing their mind becausethey feel this way, right, so
sometimes that's enough is justto say I see you, and that
(36:17):
sounds really hard right now.
Yeah, yeah, what can I do?
What do you need?
What do you?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
need.
Yes, yes, yeah, all right,moving to our last section, I
want if you could hit on thefive pillars, and I think I want
to go deeper or get a littlemore information on two of them.
But Okay, great yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So the pillars are what I call the five pillars of
empathetic and effectiveleadership, and I was trying to
deconstruct the recipe fromthese leaders that, seemingly
with no effort, are bothempathetic and high-performing.
And so I did hundreds ofinterviews through my podcast.
I did lots of research andthese were the five common
threads that came up over andover again.
So they're meant to be aframework, not for strengthening
(36:55):
your empathy.
That was the previous book, theEmpathy Edge.
But if you are trying to be anempathetic leader and you feel
or you know that performance isslipping, people are walking all
over you, you're losing yourown personal boundaries.
Look to the pillars to see ifone of them might need to be
strengthened, because that mightbe a clue as to what's going on
about how you're not able tohave that balance.
(37:17):
So the five pillars areself-awareness, self-care,
clarity, decisiveness and joy.
So real, quick, self-awarenessyou need to know what you're
bringing to the interaction andyou need to put your ego aside
and say it doesn't matter if youhave been a CEO for 20 years.
You always have more to learn.
(37:37):
So what are your strengths,what are your blind spots, what
are your challenges, what areyour emotional triggers, so that
you know what you're bringinginto the interaction and you can
adjust accordingly and manageaccordingly.
Right Self-care is not manisand pedis.
It's being able to rechargeyour battery and fill your
(37:58):
capacity, because if you are athalf capacity, you are not able
to be empathetic without, you'renot able to take in other
points of view withoutdefensiveness or fear, take in
other points of view withoutdefensiveness or fear.
So how are you recharging, howare you resting?
How are you taking care of yourmind, your body, your soul?
And that could be anything frompaid time off and making sure
(38:19):
you're taking it and modeling itfor your team.
By the way, right, it could besomething very calming.
It could be yoga or meditationor reading.
For some people it's somethingvery active to recharge their
brain.
It's like rock climbing ortraining for a marathon.
So self-awareness helps tounderstand what you need for
self-care right.
Clarity is really not just aboutbeing kind.
(38:43):
It's about keeping people in astate where they're not anxious,
they're not fearful.
They're not anxious, they'renot fearful, they're not under
stress.
Are you being clear aboutvalues, norms, expectations, the
mission, the purpose, feedbackAre you giving actionable
feedback, like you're doing agreat job or you could be doing
better is not actionablefeedback.
(39:03):
So making sure that we arecrystal clear when we're
communicating, because you can'thold someone accountable to an
expectation you've never set.
So what I hear sometimes is youknow, I'm a really empathetic
leader, I listen to my team, I'malways there for them, but like
they're just not accountable.
Take a look at clarity.
I spoke to one leader of a verylarge global advertising agency,
(39:26):
a very young, hungry workforce.
The minute they got clear oncareer progression, career
advancement, mission values,entitlement went away.
This idea of constantly askingfor more went away, because they
knew where they stood rightDecisiveness.
Don't let things linger.
(39:47):
Don't keep people in limboforever, even in the name of.
I'm trying to get everyone'sopinion about everything.
Yes, you want to synthesizemultiple points of view.
You don't want to be a dictator, but learn to synthesize
quickly and transparently andmake a call and then communicate
that back to the team.
Here's why this decision wasmade.
Jill, we loved your idea aboutX.
(40:09):
It actually provoked a reallygreat conversation, but here's
why we're not going to be ableto include that in the proposal.
But please keep those ideascoming, jill, because it really
sparked a great conversation.
Now I've encouraged you tocontinue giving feedback, but
I've also explained why thedecision was made.
So now you can disagree, butcommit to the decision right,
(40:30):
and then joy is just you know,kind of what we were talking
about earlier.
It's not just about being funnyas a leader.
It's about and it doesn't meanthe work's going to be joyful
every moment, like we 'll stillhave to do budget spreadsheets
and all that kind of jazz, butit's although for some people
that is joy, I should say, youknow, to each their own.
But it's really about creatinglevity, even especially when the
(40:52):
work gets hard.
Is there camaraderie?
Are you encouraging workplacefriendships?
You know, you spoke earlier thedata around friends at work.
If you have a friend at work,your engagement is higher, your
performance is higher,absenteeism is lower all of
these great things right.
So are you encouraging somelevity?
And you don't have to think ofit all yourself.
Let your team get involved.
(41:13):
You might have people that wantto start a really fun Slack
channel, or it's not a waste oftime.
Those moments are what enableus to engage and be there for
each other.
So when the work gets tough,we're in it with each other and
we want to show up for eachother.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, and I also think about my own experiences.
The experiences clients sharewith me is that it is that
connection around sometimes theinsanity of what we're doing,
even though there is a clear endgoal, but in order to get there
you have to do it this way, andsome of the jokes that come out
(41:51):
of that are, I mean, water outyour nose because you're like
laugh out loud kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
I was in a really negative culture multiple times,
but one particular time but myimmediate team.
We built a micro culture ofbeing very close, having a lot
of levity, a lot of camaraderie,and one of the things that was
like our calm in the storm ofthat environment was a bunch of
us went to lunch every daytogether Like no matter what.
(42:21):
We might've taken a little bitlonger than we should have, but
that was actually like a joythat kept us going.
It powered us through the restof the stuff we had to deal with
so that we could perform.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Right, I love it.
I love it.
So my last question is whatadvice would you give to a
worker who isn't in a position,for various reasons, that they
can leave and clearly have foundthemselves with an unempathetic
leader?
Should they go to HR?
Should they not?
(42:53):
Like that's always a sticky,sticky one?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
I know Well your thoughts on that.
Yeah Well, I mean, it dependson what's happening, right?
If it's something where you'rephysically or psychologically in
danger, you should go to HR,but if it's just, I don't know,
if it's an HR violation thatyou're not empathetic.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Unfortunately, that's not an HR violation yet being a
jerk is not a fireball.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Unfortunately, yeah, it's not.
But I would say I actually gavethis advice to a friend of mine
like a year ago who was dealingwith someone who, just as an
example, completely talked overher, wouldn't take her ideas,
was constantly like, let's do itthis way.
Let's do it this way, just verydifficult to work with.
(43:34):
And I said did you try, like alittle Jedi mind trick of like
practicing empathy with thatperson?
You don't have to tell thisperson you're practicing empathy
, but what would happen in yourstatus meetings if you just let
her talk and you supported everyone of her ideas?
So, like Jill, that sounds likea really interesting idea.
(43:54):
Tell me more about that.
Tell me more, okay, interesting, and actually just not push
against it anymore.
Right, what would happen?
Like, just see what wouldhappen.
Maybe she's coming on so strongbecause she feels like you're
not valuing or listening to herideas and maybe there's a little
bit of insecurity about, well,I'm just going to keep pushing
(44:18):
this because I can, because I'min the.
So that's what I would say istry to do this little Jedi trick
of responding with empathy toyour boss and asking questions,
instead of always giving them awall to push against and just
get curious.
Do it for a week.
They might think something'swrong with you, I don't know.
(44:39):
But do it for a week and seewhat happens.
You don't have to support whatthey're saying if you don't
agree with it, but if they are,you know, it depends on what the
issue is.
If they're always talking overyou, if they're always
poo-pooing your ideas, getcurious and start asking them
questions and actively listeningto them and see how it changes
(45:00):
the tenor of the relationship.
Because if we're not empathetic, that could be ego, that could
be insecurity, that could befear driving that.
And if you show up in theinteraction as the empathetic
one, you are actually settingthe tone, even if they never
acknowledge it that that's whatyou're doing.
(45:21):
Try it for a week and see whathappens.
That would be my best advicefor that, because it's not your
job to change the other person.
All you can do is show up howyou show up, and if you are an
empathetic colleague, if you arean empathetic worker, you tend
to be able to build engagementand buy-in because of that
(45:44):
behavior.
So try it on that person thatyou're pushing up against,
instead of trying to make themchange for you, and see what
happens I think that is aperfect spot to leave this.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
So, maria, thank you so much for being here.
I will put all of yourinformation in the show notes
where to get maria's book, whereto follow her on the socials
and where she puts out greatwork.
And if you have questions,always email me at hello at
jillgriffincoachingcom.
We will get those questions tomaria.
We will bring her back and haveher answer questions.
If that'd be great, and themall we'd love to have you back.
(46:17):
So until next time, I'm goingto tell all of you embrace
empathy be intentional and kind.
I'll see you soon.
Hey there, I'm Jill Griffin.
I'm a career strategist andexecutive coach and I am here
today with Maria Ross, who I am.
Listen, I read a lot of books.
I read a book or more a week,and this book I was not only
highlighting and underlining andlike talking about, but her
book the Empty Dilemma, which weare going to talk about today,
is phenomenal and this is a realtreat everyone.
(00:20):
So, whether you're watching orlistening, I would like to
introduce you to Maria.
Hello, hello, real treateveryone.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So, whether you're watching or listening, I would
like to introduce you to Maria.
Hello, hello, thank you so muchfor having me.
It warms my heart when I hearpeople saying they've
highlighted and posted, notedand all the things on my book.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And yelled out loud yes, preach, yeah.
So Maria, why don't you let ourlisteners and viewers know a
little bit more about yourselfand give them a brief overview?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Sure, I am Maria Ross .
I am an empathy advocate.
I like to say, I'm a speaker,I'm an author, I'm a podcast
host.
My podcast is called theEmpathy Edge, and I come from
the world of brand strategy andmarketing, and so my whole
career has really been about howto help people connect and
engage with their audience.
(01:04):
Now, what I'm all about ishelping people understand the
power and the strength ofempathy as a lever for achieving
radical success, whether it'sfor your own leadership, to
build a thriving culture or tobuild an engaging brand, and
that's what I'm all about.
I give keynotes, I giveleadership trainings, I'm a TEDx
speaker and, like I said, I gotmy podcast, which I love.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I love talking to other experts.
Awesome, Okay, so I'm the nerd.
Like I said, highlighted pagenumbered, all of that and I want
to jump right in.
So on page two, which is whereit started, I was like you talk
about a bit around empathy andyou say a lack of empathy did
not seem to be the issue.
(01:51):
To me, it seemed that they hadbeen conflating empathy with a
need for more trust.
Take us through, tell us whatthat is in context that people
are definitely going to want tohighlight and bookmark this part
of it.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, I mean a lot of my work is about helping people
understand what empathy is andwhat it isn't, because there's a
lot of misunderstanding thateither burns us out because we
don't understand what empathymeans, or it causes us to shy
away from empathy in theworkplace.
So empathy through the workthat I do is about being able to
see, understand and, whereappropriate, feel another
(02:27):
person's perspective.
It doesn't mean you have to becrying on the floor with your
employees, but then you use thatinformation.
It's sort of a method ofinformation gathering of
someone's context and wherethey're coming from, so then you
can use that information to actwith compassion, and compassion
is really empathy in action.
What is my next right step totake with compassion and
compassion is really empathy inaction.
What is my next right step totake with this person?
(02:48):
It doesn't necessarily mean toget into some of the myths.
It doesn't mean I'm just beingnice because you can be nice,
but it doesn't mean you see mypoint of view.
It doesn't mean I cave intounreasonable demands.
Right, that's people pleasing,that's submission.
That's not empathy, that's notperspective taking to find a way
forward.
And it also doesn't meanagreeing with someone.
You can have an empatheticconversation with someone to
(03:10):
understand their point of viewand why they think the way they
do, and you can walk away sayingI really don't, I still don't
agree, but I see how you gotthere and so maybe we can find
common ground together.
So really, that's about helpingpeople understand that.
It is like I said with some ofmy very analytical left brain
(03:30):
leaders who are not too into theemotional side of it helping
them understand.
Hey, think of it as informationgathering, think of it as a way
to embrace curiosity, find outwhat's going on for someone else
, because you may find a goodidea.
You may find a good idea, youmay find an interesting
rationale for why they feel theway they do.
You might be able to address aproblem, a root cause that you
(03:51):
didn't see and that really helpsthem embrace empathy.
As you know, there's cognitiveempathy and there's emotional
empathy.
Cognitive is using your head toimagine what something is like
for someone.
Emotional is when you actuallycan share the emotions.
You're sad, I start tearing up,you're really anxious and upset
, my palms start getting sweaty,whatever it is, but both of
(04:14):
those things you can accessempathy through either door to
lead to an act of compassion.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
So you've said so many things in there, but the
one thing that's sticking in mymind first is the part around
empathy and compassion, and it'smaking me think that, you know,
empathy without leadershipgives you connection but no
solutions, exactly.
And then leadership withoutempathy is sort of that toxic
old power over versus power with.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And that it's that compassion and the connection
that we need to.
I'm guessing we can teach.
Like some people are born withit, other people we can teach
and teach them how to.
It's a very coachy term, but wewould say hold space and let
the individual expressthemselves without stepping on
them or telling them Right.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Or trying to solve their problems.
Yeah, and actually, you know,actually science shows we are
actually born with empathy.
So I kind of call BS on someleaders of not embracing their
empathy, because we're born withit, it's innate to us, it's
barring certain pathologicalconditions, that's outlying
right.
For the most part, humans areborn with it.
There's studies that have beendone on babies and on children
(05:23):
and we're born with it.
But for some of us, the muscleatrophies.
So whether we grow up in orwe're in a work environment that
doesn't celebrate it, reward it, model it, acknowledge it.
That muscle, just like anyother muscle, when we don't go
to the gym or don't work outwith weights, it atrophies.
So the great news is to yourpoint, it can be strengthened,
(05:45):
but it has to be moreintentional if your muscle has
gotten weak, and that justrequires you to really be
thinking about thoseinteractions.
Maybe it's not your standardoperating procedure right now to
be a good listener or to becurious or to be able to put ego
aside, but all of those thingscan be learned if you decide
that's the kind of leader youwant to be.
(06:05):
And given what the data and theresearch show about how being
an empathetic leader improvesperformance, retention, loyalty,
innovation, customer revenue,it's in your best interest to
try to build that empathy muscleas a leader, even if you're
like well, I'm just not reallytouchy-feely.
You don't have to be touchyfeely to be empathetic and see
(06:26):
someone else's point of view.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Right, Right.
And you know, one of the themesthat to me was really obvious
throughout the book was thebalance of empathy and
accountability right.
That empathy and I think we getconfused because we have our own
opinions and then there's a lotin our face around media about
how to walk that line, Like,yeah, and as a leader?
(06:48):
Today we're hearing you know,there's a lot of discussion
around return to office, whetherI should work from home, the
hybrid, what's the rightapproach?
I'd love for you to explain topeople a little bit around how a
leader can walk that linebetween empathy and
accountability.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, I'm definitely pro both and leadership.
Not either or right so it's.
We don't have to choose betweenbeing empathetic or
high-performing, beingempathetic or holding people
accountable, and especially,being empathetic or being, you
know, maintaining our own strongboundaries, and I think that's
the false narrative we giveourselves.
(07:23):
And and it's really about both.
And how can I be empathetic andbe there for my employees and
support them to deliver the workat the level I need them to
deliver?
Like that's the part peopleleave out right, and so you're
not when you're trying toapproach, maybe an
underperformer, let's say, orsomeone who has an issue or has
(07:44):
an interpersonal conflict withsomeone else that they're
working with.
The goal that we need to keepin mind as leaders is we want to
up-level their performance.
So what needs to be done toup-level their performance?
We can guess, we can makeassumptions, we can say, well,
this is what would motivate me,but none of that is empathetic.
What's empathetic is tell mewhat's going on for you, tell me
(08:09):
what your vision is, tell mewhat motivates you, what are you
passionate about, andleveraging that to meet your
goal as a leader, which is toget the best level of
performance, get the best levelof engagement and, quite frankly
, if you want your bonus at theend of the year, you want your
employees to be operating attheir optimum level, and the way
(08:29):
to get them at their optimumlevel is through empathy.
So they're not mutuallyexclusive things of.
You know, if I'm empathetic,that means my performance will
slip.
That's what I hear all the time, but that's because of what you
think empathy is and notengaging it in a way where
you're understanding thatempathy is about helping you
both reach a goal not loweringyour standard down to the other
(08:51):
person, but helping the otherperson raise their standard up
so that the team can perform.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Okay.
So you and I joked before thisconversation that we were going
to be probably threading theneedle back and forth from the
employer to the employee.
Yes, so from the employee sideof what you just said, what I
know when I work with my privateclients or when I work within
organizations is the lack oftrust and transparency.
(09:20):
Yes, I've also been insituations where there is no way
I am telling that person any ofmy needs because it's going to
come back in six months in adifferent way, served in a dish
that I don't want to eat.
Say to someone who's like, butI don't know if I trust my
leader enough to share with them.
You know, my child's sick, Ihave an aging parent, my own
(09:45):
health issues or I'm justfeeling burnt out.
Without it being against me.
What would you say to someone?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Well, what I would say is, first of all, it depends
again, it depends on yoursituation.
And are you able to be in asituation where, if you had to,
you could leave that job for adifferent job?
And if there's some sort ofsafety around, I have agency to
make my own decisions about ifthis leader or this organization
(10:12):
aligns with my values or not.
Then my first thing would be tosay have a conversation and say
look this behavior or whateverit is, I have this situation
going on at home and bring itback to the business, especially
if there is a lack of trust andthere's not really a close
relationship.
(10:32):
Bring it back to businessperformance and what's the
shared goal.
I know that we need to deliverX.
Here's what's getting in theway of me delivering X.
This is what's going on for meat home.
You don't have to get weepy, youdon't have to get emotional.
You can just make a statementand say and I've been holding
out on telling you that to getwhat I need to actually complete
(10:55):
the project or get to the goal,meet the KPI, because I didn't
feel like I could tell you thatNow one of two things could
happen.
One is that's actuallyeye-opening for the leader of.
I didn't realize that youcouldn't trust me with that kind
of information.
Of course you could trust me,like let's figure out together
what we can do again bringing itback to meet the common goal,
(11:19):
right, I don't have tocompletely off track and then
start providing delivered mealsto your family or whatever.
I don't have to get into thepersonal if we don't want to go
there.
But if we can bring it back tothe goal, and that's where we go
wrong is we end up holding itin, holding it in, holding it in
until we do have an emotionaloutburst at our leader, and now
(11:41):
they're just surprised, right?
So that's one way it can go.
At our leader, and now they'rejust surprised, right.
So that's one way it can go.
The other way it could go,which I would probably place
money on a bet, that this wouldbe a minuscule percentage of
bosses, and even I will say thiseven one of my most
psychologically abusive bosses.
I know for a fact that whensomeone was in need of something
(12:04):
from a personal perspective,she was the first person to step
up.
So, even though her behaviordidn't engender trust and she
wreaked havoc on ourorganization, there was like she
had humanity in her, and sowhen someone did and I would say
because she could be the heroin some way, but and she could
be the hero.
Yeah, that's anotherconversation.
(12:26):
Different conversation, buteither way, you're saying even
in there, but yeah, and I'msaying it would be a minuscule
percentage of people that wouldsay I don't care, right, get it
done, because that doesn'tactually meet their goal.
So that's actually not goodleadership, right?
Right, so you know, take thechance of having the
(12:52):
conversation, but if you havethe conversation, keep it
focused on shared goals and keepit focused on how it's
impacting the work and yourdesire and your willingness to
find a way to find a strategy toadapt so that you can help
complete the goal.
That's a completely differentconversation than just falling
apart in your boss's office whoyou don't trust, right?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
It's also making me think from the other thing you
said about like having aconversation.
You know, I often suggest topeople that you took a job
because the data points that weknew right what you were going
to be doing, who you're going tobe doing it for potentially
shared values, the salary youwere getting the data points
(13:26):
worked that might shift right.
Completely For any of us thatwere working with an
organization pre-COVID.
We shifted in those earlymonths of COVID and many of us
are seeing a shift to what isthe next thing they're becoming.
So I think what's important is,just as your organization is
doing their own strategicplanning, you need to be doing
(13:46):
that too and you need to look.
You know what for a year or two, this was the right place for
me, and it doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with the place.
It means that your values haveshifted and you need to take
care of yourself.
Well, if you do have, you know,important things going on with
the members of your family orpeople that you live with, that,
maybe it's also time to checkin of what is.
What does the job look like, orwhat does work look like for me
(14:09):
now?
Yeah, it doesn't always have tobe that way either.
I love the concept of aportfolio career where maybe for
this time, I need to takesomething that's a little bit
different and I have the agencyto do that.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
I was just going to say.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Come back to another opportunity, another time.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Yeah, it's about remembering we have agency, and
this is why clarity is one ofthe five pillars in the new book
, because if you can be crystalclear as a leader and even as an
organization, about what ourmission is, what our values are,
what they look like in practiceand what we believe, how we
treat each other, then now I canmake a better decision as an
(14:45):
employee to say, great, is thiswhat I want to sign up for or
stay signed up for?
The company can run itselfhowever it wants to run itself.
They actually have that right.
And if they're making businessdecisions about return to office
, about job hours, whateverthey're doing, whether that's
(15:06):
well-informed or not.
That's sort of like what youand I are working with leaders
on.
But if you're talking to anemployee, they've clearly stated
what's happening.
You can give feedback, you cangive it constructively, you can
give it in a way.
That's here's why this is againgoing to impact the work.
If they don't budge, they don'thave to.
So now it's on you to have someagency.
(15:28):
If you are not necessarilytrying to change them now you
have to figure out is this aplace where I still want to be,
and that doesn't have to be acontentious conversation.
This is like my whole point,where it's like if you're a
leader and someone's coming toyou demanding I don't want to
come back into the office fourdays a week, the empathetic
response as a leader is to say Ihear you and I understand.
(15:49):
I understand that this might bedifficult for you in this
season, as you're talking aboutof your career, your life, I get
it and it might not be theplace for you anymore.
You're right, it might notalign with your values and your
needs right now.
So what can I do to support youto move on?
What can I do to support you tofind a different role?
How can I?
Can I provide references?
Can I provide some contacts foryou?
(16:10):
It doesn't have to be anargument.
It doesn't have to be likeultimatum slamming doors, like
it can be an empatheticconversation.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
And what I was reading and the part again it
gets right in there on pagethree going about empathy being
weaponized, which I want to diginto a bit.
But what I was reading thereand you know, if you talk to
people who are in a return tooffice situation that are
unhappy about it, is they reallythink that they are going to
(16:40):
win.
So the thing and and look, Iwant you to win, but I also
respect that an organization hasbeen able to say our values,
our productivity, our creativity, our innovation, it's slipped,
it's fallen.
We need to have you all comeback in, if that's, you know
what their needs are.
But in that conversation, if Igo to you and say this doesn't
(17:01):
work for me, I think what I'mhearing is the shock from the
employee.
When an empathetic leader saysI'm so sorry to hear that.
How can I help you exit withgrace and excellence, that
they're expecting to win, yeah,to your point, as if it's an
argument and look, sometimes youwill and, like I'm rooting for.
But the company also gets tomake a decision to their how
(17:25):
they want to run, and I thinkthat's a bit of the challenge
that I'm thinking is thatthere's a lot of people.
There's a large organizationthat you and I both know that
has their employees writing apetition right now trying to
overturn the return to officefor four days a week, and I
don't know how many thousands ofpeople are on it, but it's a
(17:45):
small percentage based on thenumbers of employees that they
have idea that in this market atthis time, with our current
level of workplace dynamics,that I think a lot of these
people think that their seatisn't going to be quickly filled
(18:06):
.
We know that there are peoplewho are ready and willing and
able to do those jobs and stepin roles and that would be easy
and unfortunate.
But I mean, I'm sure from yourside of the table you're seeing
a lot of that.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I am, and you know.
This is where now I'm going to.
I'm going to talk to theleaders and the companies here
of that.
You know.
We need to remember thatinnovation doesn't happen inside
four walls, like we proved it.
We proved it during thepandemic, when we had to that
your company could still operate, it could still produce, and
there's so many benefits toopening up the talent pool,
(18:42):
being able to retain employeesthat otherwise wouldn't have
been able to keep working.
Moms who have to deal withtheir kids, or people dealing
with elder care or whatever,having a disability all of those
things are good, and so I would.
You know, the one side of mymouth is like are you sure you
really want to do this?
Like, why are you doing it?
If you're doing it because yourleaders are scared and they
(19:04):
don't know how to lead peopleunless they can see them, then
that's a problem.
That's on you.
You guys need to work on that.
If you're doing this becausethere's legal requirements,
because there's, you know, likeyou said, productivity has been
slipping, all of these thingsthen yeah, that could be a good
decision.
So I would say make sure you'remaking this decision from the
(19:25):
right place and not just because, oh, you had your fun being
treated like humans during thepandemic.
Now it's time to get back towork, because I'm scared as a
leader that if I can't see you,you're not doing the work and I
don't know how to lead in ahybrid and remote environment
and I don't want to learn.
That's not an excuse to bringeverybody back to work.
So that's the argument I havebehind closed doors with leaders
(19:46):
, right.
But then when I'm talking tothe employees, it's also they're
telling you how they're goingto move forward.
They're telling you what theyneed and how they want to
operate their company and theirculture.
Now you have a decision to makeand somehow if those two things
can meet in the middle but withyour work too, it depends on the
company, it depends on theindustry, it depends on the role
(20:07):
, and this is why I had a greatconversation on my podcast with
the head of HR at Box, the filesharing company, and what I
loved about their approach isthey said no one knows the
answer.
There's no one right answer forevery company she's like.
So we're experimenting, we'retrying different models, we're
trying different things.
We're trying a few days back inthe office, a few days out.
(20:29):
We're doing a lot of listening,we're getting a lot of feedback
, we're making tweaks.
That's the mindset we need tohave, like a design thinking
mindset, when it comes to returnto office, and we need to look
at what is driving the decision,because if it's because the
leaders just don't want to deal,that's not an excuse.
(20:51):
Or because I have a buildingwith rent to pay and I need or I
have a building with rent topay, like, my husband joined a
company in the pandemic where alot of their workforce was
remote anyway, but they werelike, yeah, we're letting the
lease lapse.
This is ridiculous.
We clearly can produce andinnovate.
Now you can be strategic aboutwhen you bring people together
in person.
(21:11):
Right, we are wired to be inperson and touch and see and
read body language and all ofthat.
So be strategic.
Do you need to be in person andtouch and see and, like you
know, read body language and allof that?
So be strategic.
Do you need to be in the sameoffice every day for status
calls every week?
You don't, right.
Right, you need to be togetherwhen you're doing a, you know, a
yearly strategic planningsession or a quarterly review.
Yes, of course.
So be be intentional andstrategic about when you get
(21:33):
people together, if that's yourconcern.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yes, and I think also the thing that I've seen most
recently and I don't know thatthey would want to be named, so
I'm not going to name thecompany they are in the
financial space and what theyhave done really, really well is
you are in the office for oneweek a quarter and what they do
is it's conjoining teams, so itmight be that the engineering
(21:57):
team and the product team arealigned, and from Monday through
Friday, for that quarter youwere in the office.
Oh, I like that.
I think there's some balance ofdepending on proximity, whether
or not you're commuting,whether or not you're getting a
stipend for the hotel room, butyou were in the office.
So you know, then the next weekit might be finance and
marketing.
So you know, then the next weekit might be finance and
(22:17):
marketing the next week, so thatyou, it is one week of full
working, full connection.
Your nights are not your nights,your nights are team dinners
and then we will see you inthree months.
Yeah, so that it is giving thebalance of because, even coming
in that one day a week we'vealso heard so many people talk
about I come in but then I siton a Zoom call.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
But the office is empty.
Exactly also heard so manypeople talk about I come in but
then I sit on a Zoom call.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
The office is empty, exactly, exactly.
Which would be maddening if Ijust made a two-hour commute in,
so I think that model of whatI'm hearing, and they're in
their third year of that andthat seems working well and
again you get the immersive withyour Zoom, and then we'll see
in 13 more weeks.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
And I have a question for you, like if we can have a
little little back and forth onthis.
One of the things I have heardabout the negative is which is
kind of shocking is that andkind of shocking and kind of not
is that there are many Gen Z,younger millennials especially
those who don't have familiesyet they don't have families of
their own who are wanting to beback in the office because it's
(23:23):
their social system, and I canattest I made all my best
friends at work.
When I was in my 20s.
I met my husband at work.
There's something to be said,and so they feel like they're
not getting the FaceTime and theserendipity and the social
interaction that you get in anoffice.
I'm wondering, you know and Ihaven't looked into enough
reports on this, but I hearthese little anecdotes here and
(23:47):
there what are you seeing aroundthat?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, it's definitely nuanced.
So for our listeners, this isnot fact, this is not data, this
is not statistics.
This is what we're seeing inour own bubbles.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yes, exactly, exactly .
Yeah, I don't have a date, Idon't have a report to point out
to you.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Yeah, but I think it also comes back to the age of
the children in the household orthe age of the aging parent and
proximity to where that agingparent is to the worker Right.
So that's where, if I was tosummarize, so it is exactly true
that that the that based on GenX.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Like the early in their career people, the people
who it's like their first jobyeah, First jobs.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
They there's some of them because of their college
experience with COVID.
They don't even know what thepotential is that they're
missing.
So I'm sorry and I hope thatyou get that some point but if
it wasn't for, like you said,some of your best friends and
even today, some of my closestfriends, if it wasn't for those
people, the network that Icreated, my COVID experience
(24:52):
would have been a lot morementally damaging to me, a lot
harder.
I had 20 years of working andmeeting people and, like every
day, called two or three peoplejust to connect right.
So that's there.
And there is something aboutmaking a relationship that's not
just through social media right, making a relationship because
you sat in the workstation orthe cube farm or a period table
(25:16):
and working together and beingin proximity.
So I'm seeing that the peoplewhose obligations are less want
to come in.
And especially, we know thattwo out of three relationships
start.
Romantic relationships startbecause of the office, and I
don't mean that in aninappropriate way, meaning I
introduced you to one of myfriends who works someplace else
, but you met that personbecause we all went out for
happy hour together or we wenton a weekend Right.
(25:38):
So that part and where I look atit is from a loneliness.
If we know that they do, thatloneliness is to a level that is
worse than smoking.
And if we're young people, andeven if they are living with
their parents because ofeconomic or choice.
If they're still alone all day,working all day in front of a
screen and not having any output, you can see where, like a
(25:59):
workplace, could really do theirhead and heart to well.
So I'm seeing it's that younger.
And then I'm seeing on theother side again, it depends on
the age of the children.
But if you're on the older side, where your children are more,
they have more agency andthey're more functioning on
their own and you're like, wait,so my life is sitting at a desk
and then sitting at the kitchentable and then going to bed and
starting it again.
(26:20):
You're like, no, I would loveto.
You know, I want to gosomewhere.
Yeah, let's, let's meet inperson.
Let's, let's meet.
So I, I think and again, don'tknow statistically I think those
of us that have had it see thebenefits of it.
Those of us that haven't had itdon't understand what the
benefit could be.
It's not a right or wrong thing, but you see that, you know
(26:44):
it's that middle tier that havechildren, I'm going to say, that
are elementary school andyounger, that are like you have
no idea the pressure on me to beable to make this work, and we
know that that's absolutely true.
We also know from you know Iidentify with a disability we
also know from a disabilitystandpoint that when you are
able to hire the person who isdisabled, you raise the whole
(27:05):
family, because otherwise thefamily has to use their own
resources to help the person whocan't get a job.
And if you have to, if there isa physical disability and
therefore you have to go into anoffice that can also be
challenging, no-transcript andthe money and then an
(27:46):
opportunity to almost likeon-ramp and off-ramp into areas
Again it's sort of a dream.
I don't know that it wouldhappen, but to me that feels
like it would fulfill the needs,and you understand that there
are trade-offs if you're notever coming into an office when
the company is requiring you tobe in an office For sure.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
I mean.
I think this is like all ofthis is solvable with empathetic
leadership, because the wholepoint is have conversations, get
curious, ask for your peoplewhat's working for them and
what's not right.
And you can do that team byteam.
You can do that if you're asmall enough company.
But the point is, I think whata lot of leaders are trying to
(28:25):
do is who's figured it out?
I'm going to do what they'regoing to do and no one's figured
it out, because it's differentdepending on your company,
depending on your industry,depending on what city you're in
, whether you're in the suburbsor in the city proper, whether
you have public transportationavailable or not.
There's so many factors.
So there's no easy pill toswallow.
(28:46):
It's going to have to beconversations, listening
sessions, what do my best peopleneed?
What do they want?
How can we structure this andwhat can we test and tweak as we
go along.
And I know that sounds like alot of effort when you're like,
okay, well, when are we going toactually get our work done?
But this is what I say to everyleader and, believe me, I've
(29:06):
led teams like I get it.
But this is why you're a leaderand you're not a doer.
The whole point is that you'releading people, yes, not just
managing tasks.
So it you know, I hate to sayit, but it's it.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
That is the work, right now, yeah, and I think
it's also important forcompanies and whoever is
responsible for training,upskilling and learning and
development in differentorganizations A hundred percent.
But it's also important thatjust because you are a subject
matter expert does not mean thatyou are the right leader 100%,
(29:41):
and we need to either upskillyou, train you to understand
leadership and I see thishappening a lot in sales where
somebody in sales is a topfinancial performer, they get
tapped to lead the team.
Yeah, suddenly, not only dothey not know how to lead the
team, but they're competingagainst their team because
they're still holding a number.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Exactly Because the skills they needed to be a
successful salesperson are verymuch individualistic, not
collaborative.
And then now, all of a sudden,you get promoted to a position
where you need to fostercollaboration, camaraderie,
support.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
But you got a number, they didn't take away your
number, so you're exactly sharpelbow with the person that's
reporting to you and then theycall me and we have
conversations and executivespeaking, all of that, but so
okay.
So two things I want to touchon.
One is I do because it was juicyI want you to talk about the
(30:35):
empathy hijacking concept,because this is the one that I
really was yelling out and thenjust to let our listeners know
is I want you to touch on thefive pillars and then I want to
get on like two of them.
Okay, great, great, yeah.
Tell everybody about thisempathy hijacking.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
So empathy hijacking is something I experienced very
starkly when and we were talkingabout this earlier I almost
died from a brain aneurysm in2008.
And I luckily survived.
I'm so fortunate I had such amiraculous recovery and I'm high
functioning now.
I deal with my own cognitivedeficits, but I find strategies
(31:14):
around them.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
That's why we get along so well.
That's why we get along.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
We're both brain people yes, exactly, brain
people, but anyway, the desirefor people to connect.
They think it's empathetic whenthey say, oh, I know exactly
how you feel, because one timethis thing happened to me and
here's what I did and here's howit impacted me, yada, yada,
yada.
We're doing that with the bestof intentions, you know, like it
(31:40):
was happening to me of like Iknow how you feel.
I can't remember anythingeither and I have to write
everything down and great, Iwasn't like that, like two
months ago, like it's differentyeah exactly what it does is
number one.
It, instead of being empatheticand letting the person talk or
vent or feel what they feel, itkind of silences the feelings,
(32:04):
right.
The other form of this well, atleast right the fires in LA.
Well, at least your family'sall safe.
I still have trauma.
My house just burned down.
I'm still having trauma, rightLike.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I don't need.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
Pollyanna right now, Right.
But empathy hijacking is againdone with all good intentions to
make people feel like they'renot alone.
But what it does is itde-centers the narrative from
the person that needs theempathy now to you.
And now you're also in advicegiving mode and they might not
be ready for advice right now.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
The better thing is to ask for consent.
Excuse me a second the pointthat you said around the houses
burning in LA, I think also forlisteners that are in the
workplace when your colleaguehas gone through a loss, and
whether it's a pregnancy, aparent, a family member, a pet,
it's the same thing where you.
I see this happening a lot,where instantly it's like, oh
(32:57):
well, when my insert person died, dah, dah, dah, dah dah, and
it's like that person has justgone through a major grief.
Yeah, two ears, one mouth.
Use them proportionally, shush.
This is not the time to beletting.
Let them have the space toexpress, and I just want to say
that because I think aroundgrief and bereavement it's
especially egregious.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yes, yes, for sure and I think that's the point is
that again it's done with goodintentions of I'm trying to make
this person feel less alone orless like something's wrong.
I want to take away their pain,right, so I go into telling
them my story or problem solvingfor them, and now I've just
taken away their ability toprocess, their ability to speak
(33:40):
or have space, or you know, nowit's about me.
So we want to avoid empathyhijacking and so there's a time
and a place where you can sayyou know, this must be really
tough for you and you know, I'mhappy to share what I went
through when, whatever, whenyou're ready to hear it and they
may come to you later.
Of like, yeah, I'm ready, I'mhappy to share what I went
(34:00):
through when, whatever, whenyou're ready to hear it and they
may come to you later.
Of like, yeah, I'm ready, I'mready for some advice.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I'd like to hear what you did or how you solved this
problem.
Right, right, yes, beautifully.
I mean it's like I want tounderline and highlight when
we're in the office and we're ina workplace, we do have these
false, like formed relationshipsthat sometimes they might be
legitimate friendships,sometimes they might just be
friendly relationships.
So you don't want to put yoursmall intestines on the table,
you don't want the world to know, but at the same time you're
(34:25):
like grieving over or whatever,this situation.
Yeah, right, you're in a placeand having someone I sometimes
call them conversationalnarcissists but this idea of
like redirecting back to yourexperience and we have to
remember we don't all have thesame socioeconomic background
you also might be at a differentpay scale, where you're able to
(34:45):
hire that person to help youwith that thing, where I'm not
in that situation right.
Just understanding the differentlayers and nuances.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
The best phrase I heard during the pandemic was we
might all be in the same storm,but we're not in the same boat,
and that's what we have toremember for any trauma, any
ordeal, any issue that someone'shaving is it might be the same
storm, but they're in adifferent boat.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
And I love what you said about saying.
You know I can relate to thatand at some point, if you ever
want to talk about how I managedit, I'm here for you.
Just something like that is away to validate what they're
saying, but not bring it onyourself.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Right after I really started researching empathy,
that the appropriate responsewhen someone shares something
tough or terrible or whatever isjust to say, yeah, that sounds
really tough, and that's evenwhen I've had friends that have
lost parents, for example.
I'll even.
You know, there's nothing I cansay.
(35:51):
This sucks.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
This is terrible, right, and they're like yeah,
and we feel like we don't wantto say that because we think
we're going to send them into adownward spiral.
They're already in the downwardspiral.
They want to be acknowledged,they want to know that they're
not losing their mind becausethey feel this way, right, so
sometimes that's enough is justto say I see you, and that
(36:17):
sounds really hard right now.
Yeah, yeah, what can I do?
What do you need?
What do you?
Speaker 1 (36:19):
need.
Yes, yes, yeah, all right,moving to our last section, I
want if you could hit on thefive pillars, and I think I want
to go deeper or get a littlemore information on two of them.
But Okay, great yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
So the pillars are what I call the five pillars of
empathetic and effectiveleadership, and I was trying to
deconstruct the recipe fromthese leaders that, seemingly
with no effort, are bothempathetic and high-performing.
And so I did hundreds ofinterviews through my podcast.
I did lots of research andthese were the five common
threads that came up over andover again.
So they're meant to be aframework, not for strengthening
(36:55):
your empathy.
That was the previous book, theEmpathy Edge.
But if you are trying to be anempathetic leader and you feel
or you know that performance isslipping, people are walking all
over you, you're losing yourown personal boundaries.
Look to the pillars to see ifone of them might need to be
strengthened, because that mightbe a clue as to what's going on
about how you're not able tohave that balance.
(37:17):
So the five pillars areself-awareness, self-care,
clarity, decisiveness and joy.
So real, quick, self-awarenessyou need to know what you're
bringing to the interaction andyou need to put your ego aside
and say it doesn't matter if youhave been a CEO for 20 years.
You always have more to learn.
(37:37):
So what are your strengths,what are your blind spots, what
are your challenges, what areyour emotional triggers, so that
you know what you're bringinginto the interaction and you can
adjust accordingly and manageaccordingly.
Right Self-care is not manisand pedis.
It's being able to rechargeyour battery and fill your
(37:58):
capacity, because if you are athalf capacity, you are not able
to be empathetic without, you'renot able to take in other
points of view withoutdefensiveness or fear, take in
other points of view withoutdefensiveness or fear.
So how are you recharging, howare you resting?
How are you taking care of yourmind, your body, your soul?
And that could be anything frompaid time off and making sure
(38:19):
you're taking it and modeling itfor your team.
By the way, right, it could besomething very calming.
It could be yoga or meditationor reading.
For some people it's somethingvery active to recharge their
brain.
It's like rock climbing ortraining for a marathon.
So self-awareness helps tounderstand what you need for
self-care right.
Clarity is really not just aboutbeing kind.
(38:43):
It's about keeping people in astate where they're not anxious,
they're not fearful.
They're not anxious, they'renot fearful, they're not under
stress.
Are you being clear aboutvalues, norms, expectations, the
mission, the purpose, feedbackAre you giving actionable
feedback, like you're doing agreat job or you could be doing
better is not actionablefeedback.
(39:03):
So making sure that we arecrystal clear when we're
communicating, because you can'thold someone accountable to an
expectation you've never set.
So what I hear sometimes is youknow, I'm a really empathetic
leader, I listen to my team, I'malways there for them, but like
they're just not accountable.
Take a look at clarity.
I spoke to one leader of a verylarge global advertising agency,
(39:26):
a very young, hungry workforce.
The minute they got clear oncareer progression, career
advancement, mission values,entitlement went away.
This idea of constantly askingfor more went away, because they
knew where they stood rightDecisiveness.
Don't let things linger.
(39:47):
Don't keep people in limboforever, even in the name of.
I'm trying to get everyone'sopinion about everything.
Yes, you want to synthesizemultiple points of view.
You don't want to be a dictator, but learn to synthesize
quickly and transparently andmake a call and then communicate
that back to the team.
Here's why this decision wasmade.
Jill, we loved your idea aboutX.
(40:09):
It actually provoked a reallygreat conversation, but here's
why we're not going to be ableto include that in the proposal.
But please keep those ideascoming, jill, because it really
sparked a great conversation.
Now I've encouraged you tocontinue giving feedback, but
I've also explained why thedecision was made.
So now you can disagree, butcommit to the decision right,
(40:30):
and then joy is just you know,kind of what we were talking
about earlier.
It's not just about being funnyas a leader.
It's about and it doesn't meanthe work's going to be joyful
every moment, like we 'll stillhave to do budget spreadsheets
and all that kind of jazz, butit's although for some people
that is joy, I should say, youknow, to each their own.
But it's really about creatinglevity, even especially when the
(40:52):
work gets hard.
Is there camaraderie?
Are you encouraging workplacefriendships?
You know, you spoke earlier thedata around friends at work.
If you have a friend at work,your engagement is higher, your
performance is higher,absenteeism is lower all of
these great things right.
So are you encouraging somelevity?
And you don't have to think ofit all yourself.
Let your team get involved.
(41:13):
You might have people that wantto start a really fun Slack
channel, or it's not a waste oftime.
Those moments are what enableus to engage and be there for
each other.
So when the work gets tough,we're in it with each other and
we want to show up for eachother.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
Yeah, and I also think about my own experiences.
The experiences clients sharewith me is that it is that
connection around sometimes theinsanity of what we're doing,
even though there is a clear endgoal, but in order to get there
you have to do it this way, andsome of the jokes that come out
(41:51):
of that are, I mean, water outyour nose because you're like
laugh out loud kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
I was in a really negative culture multiple times,
but one particular time but myimmediate team.
We built a micro culture ofbeing very close, having a lot
of levity, a lot of camaraderie,and one of the things that was
like our calm in the storm ofthat environment was a bunch of
us went to lunch every daytogether Like no matter what.
(42:21):
We might've taken a little bitlonger than we should have, but
that was actually like a joythat kept us going.
It powered us through the restof the stuff we had to deal with
so that we could perform.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Right, I love it.
I love it.
So my last question is whatadvice would you give to a
worker who isn't in a position,for various reasons, that they
can leave and clearly have foundthemselves with an unempathetic
leader?
Should they go to HR?
Should they not?
(42:53):
Like that's always a sticky,sticky one?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
I know Well your thoughts on that.
Yeah Well, I mean, it dependson what's happening, right?
If it's something where you'rephysically or psychologically in
danger, you should go to HR,but if it's just, I don't know,
if it's an HR violation thatyou're not empathetic.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Unfortunately, that's not an HR violation yet being a
jerk is not a fireball.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Unfortunately, yeah, it's not.
But I would say I actually gavethis advice to a friend of mine
like a year ago who was dealingwith someone who, just as an
example, completely talked overher, wouldn't take her ideas,
was constantly like, let's do itthis way.
Let's do it this way, just verydifficult to work with.
(43:34):
And I said did you try, like alittle Jedi mind trick of like
practicing empathy with thatperson?
You don't have to tell thisperson you're practicing empathy
, but what would happen in yourstatus meetings if you just let
her talk and you supported everyone of her ideas?
So, like Jill, that sounds likea really interesting idea.
(43:54):
Tell me more about that.
Tell me more, okay, interesting, and actually just not push
against it anymore.
Right, what would happen?
Like, just see what wouldhappen.
Maybe she's coming on so strongbecause she feels like you're
not valuing or listening to herideas and maybe there's a little
bit of insecurity about, well,I'm just going to keep pushing
(44:18):
this because I can, because I'min the.
So that's what I would say istry to do this little Jedi trick
of responding with empathy toyour boss and asking questions,
instead of always giving them awall to push against and just
get curious.
Do it for a week.
They might think something'swrong with you, I don't know.
(44:39):
But do it for a week and seewhat happens.
You don't have to support whatthey're saying if you don't
agree with it, but if they are,you know, it depends on what the
issue is.
If they're always talking overyou, if they're always
poo-pooing your ideas, getcurious and start asking them
questions and actively listeningto them and see how it changes
(45:00):
the tenor of the relationship.
Because if we're not empathetic, that could be ego, that could
be insecurity, that could befear driving that.
And if you show up in theinteraction as the empathetic
one, you are actually settingthe tone, even if they never
acknowledge it that that's whatyou're doing.
(45:21):
Try it for a week and see whathappens.
That would be my best advicefor that, because it's not your
job to change the other person.
All you can do is show up howyou show up, and if you are an
empathetic colleague, if you arean empathetic worker, you tend
to be able to build engagementand buy-in because of that
(45:44):
behavior.
So try it on that person thatyou're pushing up against,
instead of trying to make themchange for you, and see what
happens I think that is aperfect spot to leave this.
Speaker 1 (45:56):
So, maria, thank you so much for being here.
I will put all of yourinformation in the show notes
where to get maria's book, whereto follow her on the socials
and where she puts out greatwork.
And if you have questions,always email me at hello at
jillgriffincoachingcom.
We will get those questions tomaria.
We will bring her back and haveher answer questions.
If that'd be great, and themall we'd love to have you back.
(46:17):
So until next time, I'm goingto tell all of you embrace
empathy be intentional and kind.
I'll see you soon.
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