February 28, 2025 • 47 mins
In this enlightening episode, we explore the profound yet often overlooked emotional impact of growing up with a narcissistic mother. Our guest, Cristy Murray, skillfully navigates her own journey of self-discovery, sharing valuable insights and tools that can empower women facing similar challenges. Discover the complexities of narcissism and learn practical strategies to set boundaries—essential techniques for those planning to attend family gatherings with potentially toxic dynamics.
Cristy's story illustrates the struggle of feeling inadequate and the silent battle many women endure when trying to cope with their mother's expectations. By acknowledging these patterns, we empower ourselves to reclaim our identities and prioritize our mental health.
Throughout our conversation, we highlight the importance of faith and community support for healing. Cristy emphasizes the impact of journaling and surrounding oneself with nurturing relationships that promote emotional wellness. This episode is an invitation to those grappling with their familial ties to recognize the need for their own emotional independence and resilience.
Are you ready to take the first step toward healing? Join us as we share empowering tools and valuable resources that can support your journey. Don’t forget— past experiences do not have to dictate your future. Be sure to subscribe for more empowering discussions and share this episode with anyone who can benefit!
Learn more about Cristy and the work she does at blueveilwellness.com, and check out her podcast Maternal Narcissism: Unmasked
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Catholic Sobriety Podcast, the
go-to resource for women seekingto have a deeper understanding
of the role alcohol plays intheir lives, Women who are
looking to drink less or not atall for any reason.
I am your host, Christi Walker.
I'm a wife, mom and ajoy-filled Catholic, and I am
(00:22):
the Catholic Sobriety Coach, andI am so glad you're here.
Do family gatherings leave youfeeling drained, anxious or
reaching for a drink just to getthrough them?
For many of my clients, thesemoments are especially tough
because of the emotional strainof navigating a narcissistic
(00:46):
mother.
If you've decided to cut backor eliminate alcohol, it can be
really hard to imagine coping insituations when you're going to
be around your mom without it.
But there is hope and my nextguest is here to guide you.
I am thrilled to welcome ChristyMurray, a certified Catholic
(01:07):
neurocoach and a compassionateexpert in helping daughters heal
from the pain of being raisedby narcissistic mothers.
Christy understands thisstruggle firsthand, having grown
up in a similar environmentherself.
Her personal experiences,combined with her deep expertise
, make her uniquely qualified toempower women to heal, reclaim
(01:33):
their identity and thrive.
Through her innovativeneurocoaching approach, Christy
equips her clients with thetools to break free from
limiting beliefs and unhealthypatterns, while building
emotional resistance and greaterself-awareness.
She is the founder of Blue VeilWellness and also hosts the
(01:54):
podcast Maternal NarcissistUnmasked, where she shares
strategies, inspiring storiesand actionable advice for
overcoming the challenges ofnarcissistic family dynamics.
welcome christy, it is so goodto have you here hi, christy,
thanks for having me before weget started, could you please
(02:17):
explain to my listeners whatnarcissism is and what it is not
?
I think we've all been hearinga lot about it.
The word comes up inconversation much more than it
used to, and it would be sohelpful to have some
clarification from you.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yes, definitely, and I think that is the first step,
just knowing what it is.
So the word narcissism, likeyou said, nowadays it's coming
up more and more.
It's because we are becomingmore aware of it.
So narcissist generallypertains to someone who is more
grandiose, someone who likes toput themselves on a pedestal,
always talks about me, me, me,all about me.
(02:58):
And you know, when you talk topeople like these the
conversation generally turnsback around to them Like you are
because of what they did, andyou wouldn't be where you are if
not for them.
Now the tricky part is there'stwo types of it, maybe even more
, but let's narrow it down totwo.
(03:19):
So the grandiose one is the oneI just talked about, and then
the other kind is the comfort.
The grandiose one is the one Ijust talked about and then the
other kind is the covert.
That is the more dangerous onebecause it's tricky to recognize
.
And it's more tricky if yourmother is a covert narcissist,
(03:49):
because this type of mother shewould do everything, seemingly
for you, but really she's doingit to put attention to herself.
Like they could be termed asthe helicopter parent.
You know, I'm just reallyconcerned about my daughter, but
really they're concerned fortheir daughter, because their
daughter is an extension of them.
Their daughter or their son isan extension of them.
It reflects back to them and itreally doesn't matter how the
children feel because once again, as a narcissist, it all comes
back around.
(04:10):
It's because of how it makesthe mother look, it's because of
how it makes the mother feeland like what the mother wants.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
So the children end up becoming just pawns in this
sick game.
But at the same time, if I'munderstanding you correctly,
it's that type of parent whoseemingly on the outside, does
all those things, but really isdoing it for selfish reasons.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yes, exactly.
If I can give an example rightnow, me and my colleague were
talking about sports yesterday.
You know about parents insports and how you cheer for
your children.
So there's a lot of parentsthat are on this side and will
really get excited in cheeringfor our kids and, you know,
motivating them, encouragingthem to keep going.
And then there's one of mycolleagues actually said that
(05:17):
her mom got really excited andlike she couldn't hear her
cheering and it embarrassed her.
So after the game she hadtalked to her mom and it
embarrassed her.
So after the game she hadtalked to her mom and said you
know, you embarrassed me, youwere really loud, I can hear you
there.
And the mom felt for herdaughter and she said I'm so
sorry that you were hurt by howI was acting.
I was just really excited.
Well, that is an example of agood non-narcissistic
(05:40):
relationship, because the motherwas actually open to listening
to her daughter.
Now, a narcissistic mother, youwould get a different response.
The narcissistic mom wouldrespond with well, you know, you
should have done better and Iwas being loud because I was
(06:03):
cheering for you and I reallydon't care what other people
think of me.
So that's like the bigdifference there.
So gaslighted the daughter,gaslighted the behavior and it's
like OK, never mind thedaughter's feelings.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I think I get that and I am one of those moms that
cheers for my kids, but I havebeen told by my kids to not do
that, so it makes me feel betterthat I didn't like keep doing
it, or make it seem like I hadto keep doing it.
It's just I am like I don'twant to be that, but I do
understand what you're sayingabout it being more.
(06:32):
I guess it would be moreprideful about them and what
their child's actions, how thatreflects on them, maybe.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, it's the motivation behind why you're
doing what you're doing for yourchildren.
If you truly want to do what'sgood for them and then include
them and really treat them aspeople, as your children,
individuals, children of God whohave their own feelings, then
that's different rather thanwell.
I really don't care what youthink, because I just want you
(07:03):
to do this and I just want youto do well.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Thank you so much forclarifying that.
So you've had your ownexperience with a narcissistic
mother.
This is going to be a reallydifficult conversation saying
that, but can you please shareyour experience and then how not
only you became aware of it,but then you were able to
(07:27):
overcome that?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
yeah.
So I was not aware of it untilI was like over 40 it was really
just recent and I realized itbecause I.
So the effect on me is thatbecause I became a high achiever
, I wanted to do, do and do andthen I went into people pleasing
(07:51):
mode and then I just wanted to.
I wanted to do it all because Iwas raised to to help people,
to give everything.
You know what I have, and to methat was normal and it took.
It's good to always be helpfulto people.
But then, because I was raisedby a narcissist, I had no
boundaries and I would feel badif, you know, like, like
(08:15):
people's problems became myresponsibility and I would feel
bad if I couldn't fix it forthem, because I was raised to to
be the fix to fix thenarcissist's needs and their
feelings, and I thought that wasjust the norm until it started
taking a toll on me.
So I actually just enrolled in aproductivity course because I
(08:38):
was launching an online healthbusiness and it's amazing how
God works to heal you um.
So how that, how that um coursewent, was you know, I couldn't
do this because of this.
And then, digging deeper, itall came down to well, the
(09:03):
barrier was because I was raiseda certain way and it all like
came to my mother.
So to me that was an aha momentthat I was like, oh my gosh,
everything I do and like all Ishouldn't say all the problems,
because there are some goodthings so she became the root
(09:23):
cause of the challenges and thedifficulties.
Then I did some more work andit became to like I was giving
everything because that's how Iwas conditioned to, but then my
own feelings and needs werenon-existent and I was made to
feel guilty if I would bring myown feelings and needs to the
(09:45):
table.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
That's.
That provides even more clarity, because it's almost like, yeah
, you're a high achiever, that'sgreat, but at the same time, it
wasn't like you wanting tonecessarily be that way.
It was you being that way solike to make your mom happy, to
ensure that she wasn't going tobe mad at you or feel let down
(10:08):
by you, or something like that.
So your performance, the wayyou acted, essentially was like
you said you were the one thathad to fix things.
So if your mom was unhappy, youhad to fix it with your
achieving, with your you know,doing and serving and all of
that.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yes, that's correct.
And then you know, being underthe constant scrutiny and
criticism, like if things don'tgo her way, then the tantrum
happens.
So I was just constantly likein the background, trying to
fight for her, fix things forher and do things for her too.
(10:49):
And then, now that I havechildren, I think the eye-opener
for me was my children.
Were she would start to treatmy children a certain way, to
where I started seeing that waita minute, that's how she
treated me when I was a kid.
And then I saw how my childrenwere acting and then I
remembered how it was when I wasa child.
So then that's when I decided,okay, this cycle needs to stop
(11:13):
and this is not reaching mychildren.
So I started my journey tohealing on my own, you know, and
it didn't happen overnight,because even like, the first
step is being aware of thingsand then the second step is
accepting things.
So then, even if you know whatit is, you've accepted them.
They're still that part of youbecause your neural pathways are
(11:36):
conditioned a certain way.
That's your norm, you're goingagainst your norm.
So really, you need God's grace, you need God to tell you that
no, that is not okay and this ishow I'll help you heal.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So how is your relationship with your mother
now?
Did you have to set boundariesto where you wouldn't see her as
often?
I mean, I love that you wereable to.
It's hard when you're the onegoing through it, but then when
you can see it on the outside,like you saw it happening from
the outside, as she was doingthe same thing to your children,
and then you're like wait asecond, and it kind of like gave
(12:16):
you those emotions, probablylike when you were a kid, and
you're like wait, no, this isnot happening.
Wait, no, this is not happening.
So how did your understandingof what was going on, seeing
that happening with your kids?
And then you know, I'm sure,that you still have a desire to
have a relationship with yourmom.
(12:36):
How did that setting boundariesand everything affect your
relationship?
And is it something that'sfixed today or is it ongoing?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And is it something that's fixed today or is that
ongoing?
It's about 90%, I mean.
It's not fixed.
It's better because people donot change their personalities
and people don't changeovernight and we only can take
care of ourselves.
So it was really helpful thatyou know she moved out, because
she used to live with me when Iwas seeing all these things.
(13:04):
She used to live with me.
So that was a big help.
And even then I didn't evenrealize.
I was still asking myself likewhy was she saying those things?
Why would she like do that?
And it was actually.
I was in adoration one day and Iwas really troubled and my
phone dinged and somethingpopped up.
I don't have my notificationson and at this time in iteration
(13:34):
it just popped up and someoneposted that for you, daughters
raised by narcissistic moms thisis the book that helped me.
I could have written the wholebook.
It like shed a light toeverything and actually I was
talking to a forgiveness coachin my podcast a few weeks back
and she helps daughters raisedby narcissistic moms all over
the world and she said itdoesn't matter what part of the
(13:55):
world you're from and whatculture you're from.
We all have the same stories.
So that really opened my eyes to, wow, this is real.
I'm not just making this upbecause I was feeling guilty
that, wow, I shouldn't feel thisway.
And why do I feel this way?
You know I'm a bad daughter andwhat's wrong with me.
But just hearing validationfrom other daughters who went
(14:19):
through the same thing, okay, soit's a thing.
So then I started doing moreresearch about it and, like the
first step with me was when shewould call and she would be in
panic and be in her emergencyand expecting me to jump up and
do the fixing for her, the firststep for me is to calm down and
just say, no, we are bothadults and I should not be your
(14:44):
fixer.
You're capable yourself.
It was really wonderful for me.
I just looked at the facts andI didn't get emotional about
things and I just said, okay,well, let me think about this.
So I hung up and then I thoughtabout things and then, before
the day ended, I just said, okay, this is what we're going to do
and I made her accountable forit and that's great that had to
(15:07):
be really hard and really scaryto do.
It was because then you feel theguilt that if things get messed
up, I mean you always feel likeit's your fault and you're the
one to be blamed for it, eventhough it's really not your
fault and it's you're not theonly person responsible for it.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
From your experience with helping women, other women
with this, with realizing andthen figuring out how to set
boundaries and do all of that?
Have you or I guess I havenoticed as a sobriety coach,
women coming to me where theyknow that they have a family
(15:49):
gathering to go to their mom isas you described, in whatever
way?
You know, everybody's different, but to some level and really
the only way that they feel likethey can even get through a
family situation with their momis to cope with alcohol.
You know, some people it's food, some people it's you know
(16:11):
other things, you know whateverit is.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So how would you tell a woman like if she's going
into a situation she's decidedthat she's not, she's not going,
not going to over drink, she'snot going to overeat, she's not
going to let her mom, you know,be that catalyst in damaging her
body like she wants to takecare of it, but yet she's still
like but then all the feelings.
(16:35):
So how can?
She go into those situationsand face that without those
coping mechanisms, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So realize you are your own individual person and
your mother is herself and she'salways going to be the way she
is and you can't tell her whatto do.
You cannot tell her what not tosay.
She's going to say whatever shewants and with you deciding in
advance, deciding that, okay,when she says this, I'm just not
(17:06):
going to say anything and youdon't have to engage.
So, like for me personally,when she started saying certain
things that would trigger me, Iwould just say, well, I have to
go Because you know I called youbecause of this.
Obviously you have a differentresponse to it.
So bye.
(17:27):
So just little things like that,and like throughout months for
me just saying standing up formyself because I would call her
every day and then I would.
After I hung up, I would justfeel so defeated and I'm like,
why do I even call?
But then there's always thatneed to reconnect with her.
So after a few times of mesaying you know I have to go, I
(17:47):
can't do that and you reallydon't have to, you don't have to
give a reason, you can just say, all right, that's how you feel
.
Then that's what it is andthere's no reason to keep the
conversation going.
You don't have to explainyourself, and it's you, I mean,
you hold that power If youchoose to take that power to
(18:10):
stop the conversation, insteadof feeling like, well, you know
they still want to talk to me,yeah, they would, but do you
want to still talk to them?
And you have every right andevery power to say I'm not going
to keep going with thisconversation and actually I want
to get some dessert in thekitchen and you can talk to
(18:30):
other people or eat whatever youwant right there.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, that's really good, because that's what I was
going to ask you next.
Like when I talk to women, alot of times, like with my
clients and things, we talk alot about planning in advance
for these situations, evenplanning for these conversations
, because she's your mom and youknow, you know pretty much like
what she's going to say, youknow like what conversation
(18:56):
she's going to try to loop youin on or where she's going to
try to guilt trip, you or youknow, all of those things.
I think one of the things thatis coming clear to me is like
when there is an issue, if youbring it up to her, she's going
to be like I don't know whatyou're talking about and then
put it on you.
That type of stuff.
So I think, like planning inadvance which I always tell my
(19:20):
clients as they're trying toreduce or eliminate alcohol
anyway but plan for thoseconversations like know what you
want to say, Know, have an exitstrategy.
And that doesn't necessarilymean like leaving the house,
although it can if it gets thatbad.
But having an exit strategykind of like what you said, like
(19:40):
I'm going own mental health andyourself in those situations so
that you can kind of calm down,of calm yourself or care for
(20:12):
yourself in those situations,just to kind of get through it
without some big you know blowup or you know whatever.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So then like when you said you know they gaslight you
and and the mothers would say,well, that's not how I remember
it.
So then at that point you cansay well, that's how you
remember, I just remember itdifferently.
And if they try to get thingsout of you, because they will
try to push your buttons,because they will try to get a
rise out of you, and then whenyou lose it, then they'll turn
(20:41):
the spotlight in the camera onyou, saying like look at how
she's acting.
So have these phrases of words,just say that, well, that's not
how I remember it, I've talkedto you about this and I'm not
going to go any further withthis.
And if that's what you want todo, that's on you, but I'm not
going to take part in it.
So if you end the conversationwith a period and not even
(21:06):
asking for what they want orasking them for their opinion,
and like this is how I feel andthat's done, and this is what I
want and that's done, hopefullyeventually they'll say okay,
we're done they'll get the hit.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes, they'll get used to the new normal exactly
that's the thing it's like.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You know, you have to make your own new normal,
because they're used to, they'relike puppet masters, they're
used to like knowing whatstrings to pull, but then your
job is really to strengthen yourown muscles and then cut those
strings.
So then you, just you can standup on your own and not depend
on them manipulating you.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And no, not depending on them manipulating you and
then so what are some ways?
Because you I'm assuming you'restill kind of going through
your own healing process.
It's like an ongoing thing.
But what would you recommend towomen to do or how to?
I don't you mentioned a book,and then I know you have your
podcast and you work with women.
I don't you mentioned a book,and then I know you have your
podcast and you work with women.
(22:08):
But what do you recommend forwomen as a way of healing those
wounds from childhood trauma ina healthy way, instead of, like,
turning to, you know,attachments like alcohol or
other?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
things.
Surround yourself with lovingrelationships.
So if you surround yourselfwith women who truly love their
mother and who arenon-narcissist, you would know
that.
And it's actually when you seethat kind of relationship
between them and their children,you realize that, wow, that's
(22:44):
kind of nice and that's not howI remember my childhood.
That's kind of nice and that'snot how I remember my childhood.
So then you'll start seeingthat what was normalized when
you're growing up is really notright.
So then you'll start like beingexposed to all these loving
(23:10):
relationships, more supportivewomen, women who just are there
truly to help, nurture you andnot ask for anything in return
and not make you feel bad if youdon't do what they want.
And then actually go intoadoration, if that's your time
with Jesus.
I can't even begin to explainhow many miracles and how it'll
affect you and your relationshipby just spending time with
Jesus in adoration.
And another thing is really so,knowing the science of things
like neurocoaching, I know whatwe're conditioned to and how
(23:33):
neural pathways work, but Istill question it because I was
raised catholic and I had thatguilt.
So I, you know, I had to talkto a priest and then it's really
, you know whether it'sconfession or spiritual
direction.
That's when, then, you'll saylike well, no, jesus doesn't
hate me just because I feel thisway about my mother.
And I know I talked aboutsetting boundaries.
(24:04):
If you look at boundaries aswalls, then it has the potential
of you staying in a box whenyou have all these four walls,
and then you're just isolatedand then you turn into either
the eating or other behaviors.
But if you see boundaries asgates, I mean you still see
(24:28):
what's happening on the otherside, but they can't get through
and you can step back, you cansee what's coming and you can
get closer when you feel safe,but it's a gate that you can see
through and then choose whatyou want to pass through or pass
out.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
That's really good.
That is really good.
I've never heard it explainedthat way, heard boundaries
explained that way, and I likethat, because I like it being
that you can still see it, thatyou are in control of how close
or how far you get.
You can open it if you want orkeep it closed.
I think that's a really really.
I'm such a visual person andthat's such a great visual on
(25:11):
that, so thank you for that.
So if somebody is anarcissistic parent, will they
always be a narcissisticgrandmother?
I mean, or you know, you saidthat you saw that in your mom,
with your kids, but do you findthat with your clients that that
happens often?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I find that it really depends on the degree of the
narcissism.
Like there's it's, it's like awide spectrum, like some would
would be open to change.
Some would kind of feel fortheir children that oh my gosh,
I didn't realize that I washurting you or I was even this
close children that oh my gosh,I didn't realize that I was
(25:51):
hurting you or I was even thisclose.
And some are just like that'swho they are and they're not
willing to just even accept thefact that they're hurting you.
Like they would say, well, youshouldn't be too sensitive.
That's why you're hurt.
But you know, as a mother, ifyour children are coming to you
hurt, you would feel for them,right, oh, like, you know, how
did you get?
Children are coming to you her,you would feel for them right.
oh, like you know how, did youget hurt or did I hurt you?
(26:12):
I'm sorry I did.
Um, I, I hear like varyingdegrees, like someone they're
made aware of how their childrenare feeling and then like, with
proper support, then they wouldslowly be open to have that
conversation and some are justlike, nope, that's a you problem
, not me, and then you shouldchange.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So it sounds like it's kind ofon a spectrum and that there's
some who may teeter on the vergeof being narcissistic or have
those tendencies, but once theyrealize they're like oh my gosh,
I didn't realize I was doingthat, I'm so sorry.
So maybe it was something withthe way that they were raised.
Like, do you find?
(26:56):
That women who are raised, andI don't know how your
grandmother was with your mom,but do you find that passed down
through generations?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yes, definitely.
That's why it is a cycle thatwe need to break, and then we
owe it to our children to learnabout it now and then start
breaking that cycle, because I Idon't remember where I heard it
from because, like, the battlesthat you don't fight for your
children now are the battlesthat your children are going to
fight later on, and that's thebattle that your mother didn't
(27:28):
fight for you.
That's why you're fighting iton your own right now.
So it's really up to us,knowing what it is, to take the
steps towards it.
So, like we become that shieldfor our children, so we hold
that shield and at the same time, I mean we have a tough job.
Sometimes ignorance is bliss,but then you know, once you know
(27:49):
you hold, use your other handto hold that shield and at the
same time, I mean we have atough job.
Sometimes ignorance is bliss,but then you know, once you know
you hold, use your other handto hold that shield and then the
other hand to either hold thatsword or, you know, protect you
from the other side.
Yeah, it is because they're notgoing to accept their fault
that they're wrong, becausethat's how their mothers raised
them and in their, their mind,they will say, well, I turned
(28:11):
out okay.
But not really.
If you don't have arelationship with you and like,
motherhood is really not aboutjust, you know, getting pregnant
, like giving birth and raisingkids, giving birth and raising
kids, the mother motherhood isabout having that relationship
with your children and beingthat mother, not just the
(28:34):
biological, I mean, you're justa surrogate, if that's all you
think motherhood is.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, yeah and I think that's important what you
said about breaking the cycle,because what we do is like we
see what things you know.
Nobody's perfect Everybody.
We parent out of our woundssometimes, but our job is to
find that healing, and once weare healed, then we can help
(28:59):
parent our children so that theydon't have to experience those
wounds.
Like my children have knownsince a very early age about my
struggles with alcohol and thatI don't drink.
And this is why and you know soit's one of those things,
because it was very much in myfamily.
You know, alcoholism was verymuch, especially on my dad's
(29:22):
side of the family, and so I'mlike it stops with me.
And this is how I'm going totake precautions to ensure that
my kids you know whether theydrink or don't drink, have
awareness around it and knowlike these are boundaries.
If you can't have theseboundaries, then it's best not
(29:43):
to start.
And so with narcissism, I thinkthat that's true too, because
you're modeling motherhood tothem.
You're modeling what it is tobe a loving, caring, very
involved parent, yet at the sametime letting them be their own
person and respecting theirfeelings person and respecting
(30:07):
their feelings.
So when they say that bothersme or I don't want to do that,
you know, like some like comingback to sports.
It's such a big one.
There was just a fight at myson's.
It wasn't their basketball game, but before their basketball
game.
And I'm just like parents, it'slike a basketball game, Like
what is not life or death.
This isn't like a thing, but Ithink that those can be the type
of parents that really are init for themselves, Make it seem
(30:33):
like they're in it for for theirchildren.
So I think if we show them likewe love you no matter what, yes
, we would love it if you do thething that you want to do, if
you excel, that's so awesome.
But really we just want to haveyou enjoy it, have a great
childhood and, you know, do doall those things.
(30:53):
But I think a lot of times it'shard because we do have some
children even if they aren'traised by a narcissist who are
harder on themselves.
you know, in that way?
To where do you?
Do you think that that is justlike a learned thing, or do you
think it is something from theparenting, like maybe they are
(31:16):
parenting in a way that's maybenot narcissistic but prideful,
if that makes sense, like like,if I don't do this, then people
won't think I'm a good parent.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
But yeah, it's that.
It's that shame that's comingfrom themselves because they
right, somehow in theirchildhood they were judged.
So then now they don't wanttheir children to be judged.
So they're stepping over theirparent, their children's
feelings.
That well you know, I don'twant you to.
Like you said, they're steppingover their children's feelings.
That well you know, I don'twant you to.
(31:48):
Like you said, they'reparenting from their wound.
Whether they realize it or not,they have the best intentions
for the children.
They don't want their childrenhurt like they were.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yes, so if there's a woman that's listening and she
is dealing with and she'srealizing like, oh, my goodness,
yeah, I was raised by anarcissistic parent, you know,
and I'm sure there'snarcissistic dads and all that,
but the maternal is reallyhurtful because that's our model
.
Right, she's realizing that.
(32:23):
What are what are her nextsteps really, really, and how
can she forgive, even?
And that's going to take timetoo, right, you need to heal
first and then forgive, so what?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
are your some of your best tips on that so, yeah,
first is really just journalingeverything, because it's all
going to be, it's all going toreplay in your head.
You, you're going to hear theirvoice in your head, just
writing things down, like evenif you can remember the date.
So then when you start toquestion yourself, like oh no,
it's just me, because yougaslight yourself as well,
(32:54):
because we were gaslightedgrowing up, you're always going
to blame yourself.
Oh, you know, I acted that way,that's why I was treated that
way.
You know it's me.
But if you have these records ofhow you know you remembered it
and like what the things thatwere said, and even if you tried
to stand up for yourself and itdidn't work, um, you know, just
(33:17):
keep speaking for yourself,really finding your own identity
, separate from your mother.
And someone had told me before,or I had read somewhere, that
before you were formed in yourmother's womb, god knows who you
are.
He knows, like everything aboutyou, how you're, what you're
going to say and even how youthink, even before you say it.
(33:39):
So, just taking comfort thatwell, I have my own identity,
and really asking God like whoam I and who you want me to be.
So then it's between you,between you and Jesus and you're
not.
Your behavior is not dependenton how your mom would make you
feel and what she would tell you.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, and I think that, like you mentioned before,
like taking that to adoration,like sitting with Jesus on that,
because, yeah, I'm sure you doquestion yourself Like did I
remember it that way?
Is it right?
Am I like making too, much ofit.
Am I overreacting, right,because, yeah, the mom probably
told you those things.
Like that didn't happen, or?
(34:25):
you know you never can rememberthings Right.
So if you take that toadoration and take it, sit with
Jesus and ask him to help youremember it and just write it
down and honor, honor the waythat you remembered it.
As that is it.
And just know, like I don'tknow.
(34:45):
I just just I feel like if youdo it that way, or do it in
prayer, or you know, however isbest, but really bringing jesus
into it is would be so, sopowerful.
It's very interesting becauseI've been doing um.
I am a student of encounterschool of ministries, and we
went through an inner healing.
We were taught an inner healingtool to help people and you can
(35:13):
walk through it with the HolyTrinity and so God, the Father,
is like when you have wound withyour earthly father, you speak
to Jesus and use that when youhave an issue with your mom.
So a lot of times, people thathave a hard time connecting with
Jesus and probably Mary forsure, mary as well but I thought
it was so interesting thatpeople would be afraid to
(35:37):
approach Jesus if they had awound with their mother, and so
this exercise helps them workthrough that and then the.
Holy Spirit is something thathelps with, like siblings and
other family members.
It's so interesting to me, andif I hadn't gone through it
myself and done an inner healingsession, I would have been like
what?
I don't understand it, but it'sso, so good, and it just comes
(36:02):
up a lot because you'vementioned Jesus so many times.
So that's why I think, takingit to adoration, sitting in
front of Jesus, gazing upon him,allowing him to gaze upon you
as you're writing these thingsdown, and healing could be so,
so powerful so powerful, yes,and then I really take great
(36:28):
comfort with the blessed virginmary and being almost I mean
really being remothered by her.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
So because when I realized that well, you know, my
mom is like this, I'm screwedup.
But really, no, we're not.
That's our earthly mother,she's also human, but we always
can take comfort in beingmothered by the Blessed Mary,
because she's Jesus' mother,she's our mother, and I mean we
can take our own mothers to hertoo and we can both be mothered
(36:54):
by the Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah, yes, that's such a great thing and she is.
Was it St Teresa or MotherTeresa that was saying, like you
say blessed mother, come and bea mother to me now, or
something like that?
I can't remember the exactphrasing of it, but it's so
beautiful and it's such a shortthing that you can say if you're
struggling with those thoughtsand you really are feeling maybe
(37:20):
like my mom doesn't understandme, but the Blessed.
Mother does, and she will wrapyou in her mantle praying the
rosary.
I heard somebody say one timelike praying the rosary and
holding the rosary beads in yourhand, or like holding the hands
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, andI was like that's so beautiful,
it's so like such a comfort.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I can see how that could be very healing.
Yeah, so don't feel bad about Imean, it's easy for me to say
that now, but because I'm likehalfway through my healing, but
you know, and I just keeptelling myself because, yeah, I
have felt bad, like I felt lost,like well, I don't have a mom,
or I have a mom, but it's she'snot really a mom.
(38:05):
But then I just started lookinginto the Virgin Mary as my mom.
So then it really it's almostlike being an orphan, like once
you realize that the mother thatyou looked up to all your life
is really just a shell and it'slike a fantasy mom that you made
up.
And then when you realize thatthat's not her, if you go into
(38:30):
this grieving phase that well,who am I if, like, it was a lie,
or who I believed I was growingup is not real, so then you
start looking for yourself andthen you you need that nurturing
, but like taking comfort thatwell, I do.
We, we have mom.
(38:50):
We have a mom.
It may not be the one here onearth.
The blessed virgin is our momand, just like you said, just
being wrapped up in her mantleand I don't know.
It's hard for me to explain,but just, it's almost like
you're, you're grounded.
Once you accept that, you knowit's okay if my earthly mom
(39:13):
fails me and I will pray for herhealing as well, and maybe she
can walk next to me and we canwalk to the blessed virgin Mary
so we can both be healed.
So then that you know you getyour path and you just sit with
the Virgin Mary and you know,really that's where the healing
starts to happen.
(39:34):
It's like accepting things andthen letting it go, not like
throwing it away.
You know, like your man, I feellike when you say like let it
go give it up, it's like okay.
Say like let it go give it up,it's like okay, just throw it.
No, it's like it's handing itover to Jesus and and the Virgin
Mary and then eventually youknow you'll get all the
resources that you need because,like for me, I really felt like
(39:57):
I've been provided.
Every time I need something,either someone will call me or
I'll meet someone and then, like, present things to me and
things just fall into place.
And I do believe that foreveryone, you know, ask and you
shall receive, you will be givenwhat you need at the right time
(40:18):
and all you have to do is justsurrender is just surrender.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, that's really.
The key is just surrender.
I love the visual of you andyour mom, you know, like going
hand in hand to the Virgin Maryand letting her heal you both.
I think that is so, sobeautiful because essentially,
even as daughters ofnarcissistic mothers, you know
there's still love there and youstill want the best for your
mom, and so just envisioningthat and just praying for her
(40:52):
and asking for you know, mary'sprotection over her probably be
something that feels like you'reable to do, something that's
helping her and then will helpyour relationship in the long
run, yes, and then you won'tfeel so guilty that you're
turning your back on your mom.
Yeah, are there situations whereit's inevitable break has to
(41:16):
come, or is it always redeemable?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I have heard there are some moms who can get
physical and be verbally andemotionally abusive.
At that point, as hard as it is, you have to make a choice of
what's more important, rightyour family, your children, or
your relationship with your momwhich I mean really what kind of
(41:43):
relationship it is and youcan't fix her.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
She's gonna want to be able to be fixed yeah,
anything that's going to put youor your children in a dangerous
situation or, you know, beingabused mentally or physically.
I guess that would bedefinitely the line where you
would have to step away and sayyou know someday, if you ever
(42:07):
heal.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
In the meantime, I can love you from the distance.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Exactly, exactly.
I'll call you.
Yes, so well.
This has been such a helpfulconversation, christy, I really
appreciate you being here.
So, before we close, why don'tyou just tell everybody where
they can find you and you knowif you have any resources?
If somebody is listening andthey're like, oh my gosh, I
(42:32):
didn't realize, but I think Imay have been raised by a
narcissistic mother, or maybethey're listening and they're
like, oh my gosh, am I anarcissistic mother?
So what resources do you havethat can help everyone who's
listening?
Speaker 2 (42:47):
well, so, first, if you questioned if you're a
narcissistic mother, you're not,because the fact that you're
even questioning yourself, oh,tell me, so you're okay yes,
tells me that you're not,because you care when someone
says, well, I'm not.
You know, I'm just like, okay,maybe question that.
But yeah, if you go to healmaternal woundscom, that's a
(43:10):
quiz and you know that will getyou thinking about like how you
feel and what's happening.
And then in the end it'll likegive you a score like your
readiness, like, okay, you'rejust seeking guidance right now,
or you, you're ready for help,and then that will get you to my
email list and then I, you knowwe can keep in touch.
That way I'll send resourcesand get on the wait list for a
(43:34):
course.
For, you know, let's rewriteyour story from trauma to
triumph that's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
and then, of course, there's your podcast as well, so
I'll leave all the links tothese things below, because you
got them to me and, yeah, we'lljust keep doing what you're
doing.
I think the more people thatspeak out about this, the more
awareness there will be and themore healing there will be.
So thank you so much.
Oh, can I just say something to?
Speaker 2 (43:59):
like Absolutely For sobriety, I mean.
(44:22):
So that's one way, like you hadmentioned.
You know, we all choose how wecope and for some women it's
like it's immersing themselvesin work, or for some people it's
drinking and it's that someonehad told me before.
It's the way you punishyourself.
It's like the poison that youdrink and they're not even
handing it to you, it you're theone who is like grabbing it and
giving it to yourself.
Yeah, so once you remember thatyou know, every time you you
pick up something or you knowit's destructive, I guess, like
(44:43):
if it's even fair to say thatyou know that's poison, because
essentially it is, if you thinkof it as poison, you know, just
imagine them handing it to youand you just hand it back to
them and just say, no, I'm notgoing to let you do this to me.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's a really good thing.
I like that, like they hand itto you and you hand it back to
them.
That's a really good thing tolike, visualize and think about.
But yes, it really is.
It's like if you're harmingyourself because of them, you
know, you're harming yourself,because you're trying to deal
(45:19):
with whatever the effects andthe wounds that they, you know,
inflicted on you, and so, yeah,I think that's such a good thing
.
So, thank you, I'm glad thatyou mentioned that.
All right, well, you have agreat day and I hope everybody
checks out your podcast and allof your resources and we'll talk
to you again soon.
Well, that does it for thisepisode of the Catholic sobriety
(45:43):
podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I would invite you to share
it with a friend who might alsoget value from it as well, and
make sure you subscribe so youdon't miss a thing.
I am the Catholic sobrietycoach, and if you would like to
learn how to work with me orlearn more about the coaching
(46:05):
that I offer, visit my website,thecatholicsobrietycoachcom.
Follow me on Instagram at theCatholic Sobriety Coach.
I look forward to speaking toyou next time and remember I am
here for you, I am praying foryou.
You are not alone.
Welcome to the Catholic Sobriety Podcast, the
go-to resource for women seekingto have a deeper understanding
of the role alcohol plays intheir lives, Women who are
looking to drink less or not atall for any reason.
I am your host, Christi Walker.
I'm a wife, mom and ajoy-filled Catholic, and I am
(00:22):
the Catholic Sobriety Coach, andI am so glad you're here.
Do family gatherings leave youfeeling drained, anxious or
reaching for a drink just to getthrough them?
For many of my clients, thesemoments are especially tough
because of the emotional strainof navigating a narcissistic
(00:46):
mother.
If you've decided to cut backor eliminate alcohol, it can be
really hard to imagine coping insituations when you're going to
be around your mom without it.
But there is hope and my nextguest is here to guide you.
I am thrilled to welcome ChristyMurray, a certified Catholic
(01:07):
neurocoach and a compassionateexpert in helping daughters heal
from the pain of being raisedby narcissistic mothers.
Christy understands thisstruggle firsthand, having grown
up in a similar environmentherself.
Her personal experiences,combined with her deep expertise
, make her uniquely qualified toempower women to heal, reclaim
(01:33):
their identity and thrive.
Through her innovativeneurocoaching approach, Christy
equips her clients with thetools to break free from
limiting beliefs and unhealthypatterns, while building
emotional resistance and greaterself-awareness.
She is the founder of Blue VeilWellness and also hosts the
(01:54):
podcast Maternal NarcissistUnmasked, where she shares
strategies, inspiring storiesand actionable advice for
overcoming the challenges ofnarcissistic family dynamics.
welcome christy, it is so goodto have you here hi, christy,
thanks for having me before weget started, could you please
(02:17):
explain to my listeners whatnarcissism is and what it is not
?
I think we've all been hearinga lot about it.
The word comes up inconversation much more than it
used to, and it would be sohelpful to have some
clarification from you.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yes, definitely, and I think that is the first step,
just knowing what it is.
So the word narcissism, likeyou said, nowadays it's coming
up more and more.
It's because we are becomingmore aware of it.
So narcissist generallypertains to someone who is more
grandiose, someone who likes toput themselves on a pedestal,
always talks about me, me, me,all about me.
(02:58):
And you know, when you talk topeople like these the
conversation generally turnsback around to them Like you are
because of what they did, andyou wouldn't be where you are if
not for them.
Now the tricky part is there'stwo types of it, maybe even more
, but let's narrow it down totwo.
(03:19):
So the grandiose one is the oneI just talked about, and then
the other kind is the comfort.
The grandiose one is the one Ijust talked about and then the
other kind is the covert.
That is the more dangerous onebecause it's tricky to recognize
.
And it's more tricky if yourmother is a covert narcissist,
(03:49):
because this type of mother shewould do everything, seemingly
for you, but really she's doingit to put attention to herself.
Like they could be termed asthe helicopter parent.
You know, I'm just reallyconcerned about my daughter, but
really they're concerned fortheir daughter, because their
daughter is an extension of them.
Their daughter or their son isan extension of them.
It reflects back to them and itreally doesn't matter how the
children feel because once again, as a narcissist, it all comes
back around.
(04:10):
It's because of how it makesthe mother look, it's because of
how it makes the mother feeland like what the mother wants.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
So the children end up becoming just pawns in this
sick game.
But at the same time, if I'munderstanding you correctly,
it's that type of parent whoseemingly on the outside, does
all those things, but really isdoing it for selfish reasons.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yes, exactly.
If I can give an example rightnow, me and my colleague were
talking about sports yesterday.
You know about parents insports and how you cheer for
your children.
So there's a lot of parentsthat are on this side and will
really get excited in cheeringfor our kids and, you know,
motivating them, encouragingthem to keep going.
And then there's one of mycolleagues actually said that
(05:17):
her mom got really excited andlike she couldn't hear her
cheering and it embarrassed her.
So after the game she hadtalked to her mom and it
embarrassed her.
So after the game she hadtalked to her mom and said you
know, you embarrassed me, youwere really loud, I can hear you
there.
And the mom felt for herdaughter and she said I'm so
sorry that you were hurt by howI was acting.
I was just really excited.
Well, that is an example of agood non-narcissistic
(05:40):
relationship, because the motherwas actually open to listening
to her daughter.
Now, a narcissistic mother, youwould get a different response.
The narcissistic mom wouldrespond with well, you know, you
should have done better and Iwas being loud because I was
(06:03):
cheering for you and I reallydon't care what other people
think of me.
So that's like the bigdifference there.
So gaslighted the daughter,gaslighted the behavior and it's
like OK, never mind thedaughter's feelings.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
I think I get that and I am one of those moms that
cheers for my kids, but I havebeen told by my kids to not do
that, so it makes me feel betterthat I didn't like keep doing
it, or make it seem like I hadto keep doing it.
It's just I am like I don'twant to be that, but I do
understand what you're sayingabout it being more.
(06:32):
I guess it would be moreprideful about them and what
their child's actions, how thatreflects on them, maybe.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, it's the motivation behind why you're
doing what you're doing for yourchildren.
If you truly want to do what'sgood for them and then include
them and really treat them aspeople, as your children,
individuals, children of God whohave their own feelings, then
that's different rather thanwell.
I really don't care what youthink, because I just want you
(07:03):
to do this and I just want youto do well.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, that makes total sense.
Thank you so much forclarifying that.
So you've had your ownexperience with a narcissistic
mother.
This is going to be a reallydifficult conversation saying
that, but can you please shareyour experience and then how not
only you became aware of it,but then you were able to
(07:27):
overcome that?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
yeah.
So I was not aware of it untilI was like over 40 it was really
just recent and I realized itbecause I.
So the effect on me is thatbecause I became a high achiever
, I wanted to do, do and do andthen I went into people pleasing
(07:51):
mode and then I just wanted to.
I wanted to do it all because Iwas raised to to help people,
to give everything.
You know what I have, and to methat was normal and it took.
It's good to always be helpfulto people.
But then, because I was raisedby a narcissist, I had no
boundaries and I would feel badif, you know, like, like
(08:15):
people's problems became myresponsibility and I would feel
bad if I couldn't fix it forthem, because I was raised to to
be the fix to fix thenarcissist's needs and their
feelings, and I thought that wasjust the norm until it started
taking a toll on me.
So I actually just enrolled in aproductivity course because I
(08:38):
was launching an online healthbusiness and it's amazing how
God works to heal you um.
So how that, how that um coursewent, was you know, I couldn't
do this because of this.
And then, digging deeper, itall came down to well, the
(09:03):
barrier was because I was raiseda certain way and it all like
came to my mother.
So to me that was an aha momentthat I was like, oh my gosh,
everything I do and like all Ishouldn't say all the problems,
because there are some goodthings so she became the root
(09:23):
cause of the challenges and thedifficulties.
Then I did some more work andit became to like I was giving
everything because that's how Iwas conditioned to, but then my
own feelings and needs werenon-existent and I was made to
feel guilty if I would bring myown feelings and needs to the
(09:45):
table.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
That's.
That provides even more clarity, because it's almost like, yeah
, you're a high achiever, that'sgreat, but at the same time, it
wasn't like you wanting tonecessarily be that way.
It was you being that way solike to make your mom happy, to
ensure that she wasn't going tobe mad at you or feel let down
(10:08):
by you, or something like that.
So your performance, the wayyou acted, essentially was like
you said you were the one thathad to fix things.
So if your mom was unhappy, youhad to fix it with your
achieving, with your you know,doing and serving and all of
that.
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yes, that's correct.
And then you know, being underthe constant scrutiny and
criticism, like if things don'tgo her way, then the tantrum
happens.
So I was just constantly likein the background, trying to
fight for her, fix things forher and do things for her too.
(10:49):
And then, now that I havechildren, I think the eye-opener
for me was my children.
Were she would start to treatmy children a certain way, to
where I started seeing that waita minute, that's how she
treated me when I was a kid.
And then I saw how my childrenwere acting and then I
remembered how it was when I wasa child.
So then that's when I decided,okay, this cycle needs to stop
(11:13):
and this is not reaching mychildren.
So I started my journey tohealing on my own, you know, and
it didn't happen overnight,because even like, the first
step is being aware of thingsand then the second step is
accepting things.
So then, even if you know whatit is, you've accepted them.
They're still that part of youbecause your neural pathways are
(11:36):
conditioned a certain way.
That's your norm, you're goingagainst your norm.
So really, you need God's grace, you need God to tell you that
no, that is not okay and this ishow I'll help you heal.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So how is your relationship with your mother
now?
Did you have to set boundariesto where you wouldn't see her as
often?
I mean, I love that you wereable to.
It's hard when you're the onegoing through it, but then when
you can see it on the outside,like you saw it happening from
the outside, as she was doingthe same thing to your children,
and then you're like wait asecond, and it kind of like gave
(12:16):
you those emotions, probablylike when you were a kid, and
you're like wait, no, this isnot happening.
Wait, no, this is not happening.
So how did your understandingof what was going on, seeing
that happening with your kids?
And then you know, I'm sure,that you still have a desire to
have a relationship with yourmom.
(12:36):
How did that setting boundariesand everything affect your
relationship?
And is it something that'sfixed today or is it ongoing?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
And is it something that's fixed today or is that
ongoing?
It's about 90%, I mean.
It's not fixed.
It's better because people donot change their personalities
and people don't changeovernight and we only can take
care of ourselves.
So it was really helpful thatyou know she moved out, because
she used to live with me when Iwas seeing all these things.
(13:04):
She used to live with me.
So that was a big help.
And even then I didn't evenrealize.
I was still asking myself likewhy was she saying those things?
Why would she like do that?
And it was actually.
I was in adoration one day and Iwas really troubled and my
phone dinged and somethingpopped up.
I don't have my notificationson and at this time in iteration
(13:34):
it just popped up and someoneposted that for you, daughters
raised by narcissistic moms thisis the book that helped me.
I could have written the wholebook.
It like shed a light toeverything and actually I was
talking to a forgiveness coachin my podcast a few weeks back
and she helps daughters raisedby narcissistic moms all over
the world and she said itdoesn't matter what part of the
(13:55):
world you're from and whatculture you're from.
We all have the same stories.
So that really opened my eyes to, wow, this is real.
I'm not just making this upbecause I was feeling guilty
that, wow, I shouldn't feel thisway.
And why do I feel this way?
You know I'm a bad daughter andwhat's wrong with me.
But just hearing validationfrom other daughters who went
(14:19):
through the same thing, okay, soit's a thing.
So then I started doing moreresearch about it and, like the
first step with me was when shewould call and she would be in
panic and be in her emergencyand expecting me to jump up and
do the fixing for her, the firststep for me is to calm down and
just say, no, we are bothadults and I should not be your
(14:44):
fixer.
You're capable yourself.
It was really wonderful for me.
I just looked at the facts andI didn't get emotional about
things and I just said, okay,well, let me think about this.
So I hung up and then I thoughtabout things and then, before
the day ended, I just said, okay, this is what we're going to do
and I made her accountable forit and that's great that had to
(15:07):
be really hard and really scaryto do.
It was because then you feel theguilt that if things get messed
up, I mean you always feel likeit's your fault and you're the
one to be blamed for it, eventhough it's really not your
fault and it's you're not theonly person responsible for it.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
From your experience with helping women, other women
with this, with realizing andthen figuring out how to set
boundaries and do all of that?
Have you or I guess I havenoticed as a sobriety coach,
women coming to me where theyknow that they have a family
(15:49):
gathering to go to their mom isas you described, in whatever
way?
You know, everybody's different, but to some level and really
the only way that they feel likethey can even get through a
family situation with their momis to cope with alcohol.
You know, some people it's food, some people it's you know
(16:11):
other things, you know whateverit is.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
So how would you tell a woman like if she's going
into a situation she's decidedthat she's not, she's not going,
not going to over drink, she'snot going to overeat, she's not
going to let her mom, you know,be that catalyst in damaging her
body like she wants to takecare of it, but yet she's still
like but then all the feelings.
(16:35):
So how can?
She go into those situationsand face that without those
coping mechanisms, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So realize you are your own individual person and
your mother is herself and she'salways going to be the way she
is and you can't tell her whatto do.
You cannot tell her what not tosay.
She's going to say whatever shewants and with you deciding in
advance, deciding that, okay,when she says this, I'm just not
(17:06):
going to say anything and youdon't have to engage.
So, like for me personally,when she started saying certain
things that would trigger me, Iwould just say, well, I have to
go Because you know I called youbecause of this.
Obviously you have a differentresponse to it.
So bye.
(17:27):
So just little things like that,and like throughout months for
me just saying standing up formyself because I would call her
every day and then I would.
After I hung up, I would justfeel so defeated and I'm like,
why do I even call?
But then there's always thatneed to reconnect with her.
So after a few times of mesaying you know I have to go, I
(17:47):
can't do that and you reallydon't have to, you don't have to
give a reason, you can just say, all right, that's how you feel
.
Then that's what it is andthere's no reason to keep the
conversation going.
You don't have to explainyourself, and it's you, I mean,
you hold that power If youchoose to take that power to
(18:10):
stop the conversation, insteadof feeling like, well, you know
they still want to talk to me,yeah, they would, but do you
want to still talk to them?
And you have every right andevery power to say I'm not going
to keep going with thisconversation and actually I want
to get some dessert in thekitchen and you can talk to
(18:30):
other people or eat whatever youwant right there.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, that's really good, because that's what I was
going to ask you next.
Like when I talk to women, alot of times, like with my
clients and things, we talk alot about planning in advance
for these situations, evenplanning for these conversations
, because she's your mom and youknow, you know pretty much like
what she's going to say, youknow like what conversation
(18:56):
she's going to try to loop youin on or where she's going to
try to guilt trip, you or youknow, all of those things.
I think one of the things thatis coming clear to me is like
when there is an issue, if youbring it up to her, she's going
to be like I don't know whatyou're talking about and then
put it on you.
That type of stuff.
So I think, like planning inadvance which I always tell my
(19:20):
clients as they're trying toreduce or eliminate alcohol
anyway but plan for thoseconversations like know what you
want to say, Know, have an exitstrategy.
And that doesn't necessarilymean like leaving the house,
although it can if it gets thatbad.
But having an exit strategykind of like what you said, like
(19:40):
I'm going own mental health andyourself in those situations so
that you can kind of calm down,of calm yourself or care for
(20:12):
yourself in those situations,just to kind of get through it
without some big you know blowup or you know whatever.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
So then like when you said you know they gaslight you
and and the mothers would say,well, that's not how I remember
it.
So then at that point you cansay well, that's how you
remember, I just remember itdifferently.
And if they try to get thingsout of you, because they will
try to push your buttons,because they will try to get a
rise out of you, and then whenyou lose it, then they'll turn
(20:41):
the spotlight in the camera onyou, saying like look at how
she's acting.
So have these phrases of words,just say that, well, that's not
how I remember it, I've talkedto you about this and I'm not
going to go any further withthis.
And if that's what you want todo, that's on you, but I'm not
going to take part in it.
So if you end the conversationwith a period and not even
(21:06):
asking for what they want orasking them for their opinion,
and like this is how I feel andthat's done, and this is what I
want and that's done, hopefullyeventually they'll say okay,
we're done they'll get the hit.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes, they'll get used to the new normal exactly
that's the thing it's like.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You know, you have to make your own new normal,
because they're used to, they'relike puppet masters, they're
used to like knowing whatstrings to pull, but then your
job is really to strengthen yourown muscles and then cut those
strings.
So then you, just you can standup on your own and not depend
on them manipulating you.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
And no, not depending on them manipulating you and
then so what are some ways?
Because you I'm assuming you'restill kind of going through
your own healing process.
It's like an ongoing thing.
But what would you recommend towomen to do or how to?
I don't you mentioned a book,and then I know you have your
podcast and you work with women.
I don't you mentioned a book,and then I know you have your
podcast and you work with women.
(22:08):
But what do you recommend forwomen as a way of healing those
wounds from childhood trauma ina healthy way, instead of, like,
turning to, you know,attachments like alcohol or
other?
Speaker 2 (22:22):
things.
Surround yourself with lovingrelationships.
So if you surround yourselfwith women who truly love their
mother and who arenon-narcissist, you would know
that.
And it's actually when you seethat kind of relationship
between them and their children,you realize that, wow, that's
(22:44):
kind of nice and that's not howI remember my childhood.
That's kind of nice and that'snot how I remember my childhood.
So then you'll start seeingthat what was normalized when
you're growing up is really notright.
So then you'll start like beingexposed to all these loving
(23:10):
relationships, more supportivewomen, women who just are there
truly to help, nurture you andnot ask for anything in return
and not make you feel bad if youdon't do what they want.
And then actually go intoadoration, if that's your time
with Jesus.
I can't even begin to explainhow many miracles and how it'll
affect you and your relationshipby just spending time with
Jesus in adoration.
And another thing is really so,knowing the science of things
like neurocoaching, I know whatwe're conditioned to and how
(23:33):
neural pathways work, but Istill question it because I was
raised catholic and I had thatguilt.
So I, you know, I had to talkto a priest and then it's really
, you know whether it'sconfession or spiritual
direction.
That's when, then, you'll saylike well, no, jesus doesn't
hate me just because I feel thisway about my mother.
And I know I talked aboutsetting boundaries.
(24:04):
If you look at boundaries aswalls, then it has the potential
of you staying in a box whenyou have all these four walls,
and then you're just isolatedand then you turn into either
the eating or other behaviors.
But if you see boundaries asgates, I mean you still see
(24:28):
what's happening on the otherside, but they can't get through
and you can step back, you cansee what's coming and you can
get closer when you feel safe,but it's a gate that you can see
through and then choose whatyou want to pass through or pass
out.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
That's really good.
That is really good.
I've never heard it explainedthat way, heard boundaries
explained that way, and I likethat, because I like it being
that you can still see it, thatyou are in control of how close
or how far you get.
You can open it if you want orkeep it closed.
I think that's a really really.
I'm such a visual person andthat's such a great visual on
(25:11):
that, so thank you for that.
So if somebody is anarcissistic parent, will they
always be a narcissisticgrandmother?
I mean, or you know, you saidthat you saw that in your mom,
with your kids, but do you findthat with your clients that that
happens often?
Speaker 2 (25:28):
I find that it really depends on the degree of the
narcissism.
Like there's it's, it's like awide spectrum, like some would
would be open to change.
Some would kind of feel fortheir children that oh my gosh,
I didn't realize that I washurting you or I was even this
close children that oh my gosh,I didn't realize that I was
(25:51):
hurting you or I was even thisclose.
And some are just like that'swho they are and they're not
willing to just even accept thefact that they're hurting you.
Like they would say, well, youshouldn't be too sensitive.
That's why you're hurt.
But you know, as a mother, ifyour children are coming to you
hurt, you would feel for them,right, oh, like, you know, how
did you get?
Children are coming to you her,you would feel for them right.
oh, like you know how, did youget hurt or did I hurt you?
(26:12):
I'm sorry I did.
Um, I, I hear like varyingdegrees, like someone they're
made aware of how their childrenare feeling and then like, with
proper support, then they wouldslowly be open to have that
conversation and some are justlike, nope, that's a you problem
, not me, and then you shouldchange.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah, yeah.
So it sounds like it's kind ofon a spectrum and that there's
some who may teeter on the vergeof being narcissistic or have
those tendencies, but once theyrealize they're like oh my gosh,
I didn't realize I was doingthat, I'm so sorry.
So maybe it was something withthe way that they were raised.
Like, do you find?
(26:56):
That women who are raised, andI don't know how your
grandmother was with your mom,but do you find that passed down
through generations?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yes, definitely.
That's why it is a cycle thatwe need to break, and then we
owe it to our children to learnabout it now and then start
breaking that cycle, because I Idon't remember where I heard it
from because, like, the battlesthat you don't fight for your
children now are the battlesthat your children are going to
fight later on, and that's thebattle that your mother didn't
(27:28):
fight for you.
That's why you're fighting iton your own right now.
So it's really up to us,knowing what it is, to take the
steps towards it.
So, like we become that shieldfor our children, so we hold
that shield and at the same time, I mean we have a tough job.
Sometimes ignorance is bliss,but then you know, once you know
(27:49):
you hold, use your other handto hold that shield and at the
same time, I mean we have atough job.
Sometimes ignorance is bliss,but then you know, once you know
you hold, use your other handto hold that shield and then the
other hand to either hold thatsword or, you know, protect you
from the other side.
Yeah, it is because they're notgoing to accept their fault
that they're wrong, becausethat's how their mothers raised
them and in their, their mind,they will say, well, I turned
(28:11):
out okay.
But not really.
If you don't have arelationship with you and like,
motherhood is really not aboutjust, you know, getting pregnant
, like giving birth and raisingkids, giving birth and raising
kids, the mother motherhood isabout having that relationship
with your children and beingthat mother, not just the
(28:34):
biological, I mean, you're justa surrogate, if that's all you
think motherhood is.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, yeah and I think that's important what you
said about breaking the cycle,because what we do is like we
see what things you know.
Nobody's perfect Everybody.
We parent out of our woundssometimes, but our job is to
find that healing, and once weare healed, then we can help
(28:59):
parent our children so that theydon't have to experience those
wounds.
Like my children have knownsince a very early age about my
struggles with alcohol and thatI don't drink.
And this is why and you know soit's one of those things,
because it was very much in myfamily.
You know, alcoholism was verymuch, especially on my dad's
(29:22):
side of the family, and so I'mlike it stops with me.
And this is how I'm going totake precautions to ensure that
my kids you know whether theydrink or don't drink, have
awareness around it and knowlike these are boundaries.
If you can't have theseboundaries, then it's best not
(29:43):
to start.
And so with narcissism, I thinkthat that's true too, because
you're modeling motherhood tothem.
You're modeling what it is tobe a loving, caring, very
involved parent, yet at the sametime letting them be their own
person and respecting theirfeelings person and respecting
(30:07):
their feelings.
So when they say that bothersme or I don't want to do that,
you know, like some like comingback to sports.
It's such a big one.
There was just a fight at myson's.
It wasn't their basketball game, but before their basketball
game.
And I'm just like parents, it'slike a basketball game, Like
what is not life or death.
This isn't like a thing, but Ithink that those can be the type
of parents that really are init for themselves, Make it seem
(30:33):
like they're in it for for theirchildren.
So I think if we show them likewe love you no matter what, yes
, we would love it if you do thething that you want to do, if
you excel, that's so awesome.
But really we just want to haveyou enjoy it, have a great
childhood and, you know, do doall those things.
(30:53):
But I think a lot of times it'shard because we do have some
children even if they aren'traised by a narcissist who are
harder on themselves.
you know, in that way?
To where do you?
Do you think that that is justlike a learned thing, or do you
think it is something from theparenting, like maybe they are
(31:16):
parenting in a way that's maybenot narcissistic but prideful,
if that makes sense, like like,if I don't do this, then people
won't think I'm a good parent.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
But yeah, it's that.
It's that shame that's comingfrom themselves because they
right, somehow in theirchildhood they were judged.
So then now they don't wanttheir children to be judged.
So they're stepping over theirparent, their children's
feelings.
That well you know, I don'twant you to.
Like you said, they're steppingover their children's feelings.
That well you know, I don'twant you to.
(31:48):
Like you said, they'reparenting from their wound.
Whether they realize it or not,they have the best intentions
for the children.
They don't want their childrenhurt like they were.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yes, so if there's a woman that's listening and she
is dealing with and she'srealizing like, oh, my goodness,
yeah, I was raised by anarcissistic parent, you know,
and I'm sure there'snarcissistic dads and all that,
but the maternal is reallyhurtful because that's our model
.
Right, she's realizing that.
(32:23):
What are what are her nextsteps really, really, and how
can she forgive, even?
And that's going to take timetoo, right, you need to heal
first and then forgive, so what?
Speaker 2 (32:33):
are your some of your best tips on that so, yeah,
first is really just journalingeverything, because it's all
going to be, it's all going toreplay in your head.
You, you're going to hear theirvoice in your head, just
writing things down, like evenif you can remember the date.
So then when you start toquestion yourself, like oh no,
it's just me, because yougaslight yourself as well,
(32:54):
because we were gaslightedgrowing up, you're always going
to blame yourself.
Oh, you know, I acted that way,that's why I was treated that
way.
You know it's me.
But if you have these records ofhow you know you remembered it
and like what the things thatwere said, and even if you tried
to stand up for yourself and itdidn't work, um, you know, just
(33:17):
keep speaking for yourself,really finding your own identity
, separate from your mother.
And someone had told me before,or I had read somewhere, that
before you were formed in yourmother's womb, god knows who you
are.
He knows, like everything aboutyou, how you're, what you're
going to say and even how youthink, even before you say it.
(33:39):
So, just taking comfort thatwell, I have my own identity,
and really asking God like whoam I and who you want me to be.
So then it's between you,between you and Jesus and you're
not.
Your behavior is not dependenton how your mom would make you
feel and what she would tell you.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, and I think that, like you mentioned before,
like taking that to adoration,like sitting with Jesus on that,
because, yeah, I'm sure you doquestion yourself Like did I
remember it that way?
Is it right?
Am I like making too, much ofit.
Am I overreacting, right,because, yeah, the mom probably
told you those things.
Like that didn't happen, or?
(34:25):
you know you never can rememberthings Right.
So if you take that toadoration and take it, sit with
Jesus and ask him to help youremember it and just write it
down and honor, honor the waythat you remembered it.
As that is it.
And just know, like I don'tknow.
(34:45):
I just just I feel like if youdo it that way, or do it in
prayer, or you know, however isbest, but really bringing jesus
into it is would be so, sopowerful.
It's very interesting becauseI've been doing um.
I am a student of encounterschool of ministries, and we
went through an inner healing.
We were taught an inner healingtool to help people and you can
(35:13):
walk through it with the HolyTrinity and so God, the Father,
is like when you have wound withyour earthly father, you speak
to Jesus and use that when youhave an issue with your mom.
So a lot of times, people thathave a hard time connecting with
Jesus and probably Mary forsure, mary as well but I thought
it was so interesting thatpeople would be afraid to
(35:37):
approach Jesus if they had awound with their mother, and so
this exercise helps them workthrough that and then the.
Holy Spirit is something thathelps with, like siblings and
other family members.
It's so interesting to me, andif I hadn't gone through it
myself and done an inner healingsession, I would have been like
what?
I don't understand it, but it'sso, so good, and it just comes
(36:02):
up a lot because you'vementioned Jesus so many times.
So that's why I think, takingit to adoration, sitting in
front of Jesus, gazing upon him,allowing him to gaze upon you
as you're writing these thingsdown, and healing could be so,
so powerful so powerful, yes,and then I really take great
(36:28):
comfort with the blessed virginmary and being almost I mean
really being remothered by her.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
So because when I realized that well, you know, my
mom is like this, I'm screwedup.
But really, no, we're not.
That's our earthly mother,she's also human, but we always
can take comfort in beingmothered by the Blessed Mary,
because she's Jesus' mother,she's our mother, and I mean we
can take our own mothers to hertoo and we can both be mothered
(36:54):
by the Virgin Mary.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Yeah, yes, that's such a great thing and she is.
Was it St Teresa or MotherTeresa that was saying, like you
say blessed mother, come and bea mother to me now, or
something like that?
I can't remember the exactphrasing of it, but it's so
beautiful and it's such a shortthing that you can say if you're
struggling with those thoughtsand you really are feeling maybe
(37:20):
like my mom doesn't understandme, but the Blessed.
Mother does, and she will wrapyou in her mantle praying the
rosary.
I heard somebody say one timelike praying the rosary and
holding the rosary beads in yourhand, or like holding the hands
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, andI was like that's so beautiful,
it's so like such a comfort.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I can see how that could be very healing.
Yeah, so don't feel bad about Imean, it's easy for me to say
that now, but because I'm likehalfway through my healing, but
you know, and I just keeptelling myself because, yeah, I
have felt bad, like I felt lost,like well, I don't have a mom,
or I have a mom, but it's she'snot really a mom.
(38:05):
But then I just started lookinginto the Virgin Mary as my mom.
So then it really it's almostlike being an orphan, like once
you realize that the mother thatyou looked up to all your life
is really just a shell and it'slike a fantasy mom that you made
up.
And then when you realize thatthat's not her, if you go into
(38:30):
this grieving phase that well,who am I if, like, it was a lie,
or who I believed I was growingup is not real, so then you
start looking for yourself andthen you you need that nurturing
, but like taking comfort thatwell, I do.
We, we have mom.
(38:50):
We have a mom.
It may not be the one here onearth.
The blessed virgin is our momand, just like you said, just
being wrapped up in her mantleand I don't know.
It's hard for me to explain,but just, it's almost like
you're, you're grounded.
Once you accept that, you knowit's okay if my earthly mom
(39:13):
fails me and I will pray for herhealing as well, and maybe she
can walk next to me and we canwalk to the blessed virgin Mary
so we can both be healed.
So then that you know you getyour path and you just sit with
the Virgin Mary and you know,really that's where the healing
starts to happen.
(39:34):
It's like accepting things andthen letting it go, not like
throwing it away.
You know, like your man, I feellike when you say like let it
go give it up, it's like okay.
Say like let it go give it up,it's like okay, just throw it.
No, it's like it's handing itover to Jesus and and the Virgin
Mary and then eventually youknow you'll get all the
resources that you need because,like for me, I really felt like
(39:57):
I've been provided.
Every time I need something,either someone will call me or
I'll meet someone and then, like, present things to me and
things just fall into place.
And I do believe that foreveryone, you know, ask and you
shall receive, you will be givenwhat you need at the right time
(40:18):
and all you have to do is justsurrender is just surrender.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah, that's really.
The key is just surrender.
I love the visual of you andyour mom, you know, like going
hand in hand to the Virgin Maryand letting her heal you both.
I think that is so, sobeautiful because essentially,
even as daughters ofnarcissistic mothers, you know
there's still love there and youstill want the best for your
mom, and so just envisioningthat and just praying for her
(40:52):
and asking for you know, mary'sprotection over her probably be
something that feels like you'reable to do, something that's
helping her and then will helpyour relationship in the long
run, yes, and then you won'tfeel so guilty that you're
turning your back on your mom.
Yeah, are there situations whereit's inevitable break has to
(41:16):
come, or is it always redeemable?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I have heard there are some moms who can get
physical and be verbally andemotionally abusive.
At that point, as hard as it is, you have to make a choice of
what's more important, rightyour family, your children, or
your relationship with your momwhich I mean really what kind of
(41:43):
relationship it is and youcan't fix her.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
She's gonna want to be able to be fixed yeah,
anything that's going to put youor your children in a dangerous
situation or, you know, beingabused mentally or physically.
I guess that would bedefinitely the line where you
would have to step away and sayyou know someday, if you ever
(42:07):
heal.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
In the meantime, I can love you from the distance.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Exactly, exactly.
I'll call you.
Yes, so well.
This has been such a helpfulconversation, christy, I really
appreciate you being here.
So, before we close, why don'tyou just tell everybody where
they can find you and you knowif you have any resources?
If somebody is listening andthey're like, oh my gosh, I
(42:32):
didn't realize, but I think Imay have been raised by a
narcissistic mother, or maybethey're listening and they're
like, oh my gosh, am I anarcissistic mother?
So what resources do you havethat can help everyone who's
listening?
Speaker 2 (42:47):
well, so, first, if you questioned if you're a
narcissistic mother, you're not,because the fact that you're
even questioning yourself, oh,tell me, so you're okay yes,
tells me that you're not,because you care when someone
says, well, I'm not.
You know, I'm just like, okay,maybe question that.
But yeah, if you go to healmaternal woundscom, that's a
(43:10):
quiz and you know that will getyou thinking about like how you
feel and what's happening.
And then in the end it'll likegive you a score like your
readiness, like, okay, you'rejust seeking guidance right now,
or you, you're ready for help,and then that will get you to my
email list and then I, you knowwe can keep in touch.
That way I'll send resourcesand get on the wait list for a
(43:34):
course.
For, you know, let's rewriteyour story from trauma to
triumph that's beautiful.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
and then, of course, there's your podcast as well, so
I'll leave all the links tothese things below, because you
got them to me and, yeah, we'lljust keep doing what you're
doing.
I think the more people thatspeak out about this, the more
awareness there will be and themore healing there will be.
So thank you so much.
Oh, can I just say something to?
Speaker 2 (43:59):
like Absolutely For sobriety, I mean.
(44:22):
So that's one way, like you hadmentioned.
You know, we all choose how wecope and for some women it's
like it's immersing themselvesin work, or for some people it's
drinking and it's that someonehad told me before.
It's the way you punishyourself.
It's like the poison that youdrink and they're not even
handing it to you, it you're theone who is like grabbing it and
giving it to yourself.
Yeah, so once you remember thatyou know, every time you you
pick up something or you knowit's destructive, I guess, like
(44:43):
if it's even fair to say thatyou know that's poison, because
essentially it is, if you thinkof it as poison, you know, just
imagine them handing it to youand you just hand it back to
them and just say, no, I'm notgoing to let you do this to me.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Oh, that's beautiful.
That's a really good thing.
I like that, like they hand itto you and you hand it back to
them.
That's a really good thing tolike, visualize and think about.
But yes, it really is.
It's like if you're harmingyourself because of them, you
know, you're harming yourself,because you're trying to deal
(45:19):
with whatever the effects andthe wounds that they, you know,
inflicted on you, and so, yeah,I think that's such a good thing
.
So, thank you, I'm glad thatyou mentioned that.
All right, well, you have agreat day and I hope everybody
checks out your podcast and allof your resources and we'll talk
to you again soon.
Well, that does it for thisepisode of the Catholic sobriety
(45:43):
podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I would invite you to share
it with a friend who might alsoget value from it as well, and
make sure you subscribe so youdon't miss a thing.
I am the Catholic sobrietycoach, and if you would like to
learn how to work with me orlearn more about the coaching
(46:05):
that I offer, visit my website,thecatholicsobrietycoachcom.
Follow me on Instagram at theCatholic Sobriety Coach.
I look forward to speaking toyou next time and remember I am
here for you, I am praying foryou.
You are not alone.
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