May 6, 2024 • 60 mins
"How will I be able to connect fully with my husband without alcohol?"
This is a question I get from nearly ALL of the married women that I work with and that is why I invited Ellen Holloway, from Vines in Full Bloom to be part of the discussion.
You'll learn that as a Catholic wife, you hold the sacred key to cultivating a thriving, God-centered marriage. One of deep love and mutual respect.
Let this video be your guide to embracing an alcohol-free approach to intimacy, one that draws you closer to your husband and to the heart of God.
Don't forget to like, share, and subscribe for more faith-inspired content designed to help you break free of the chaos that alcohol is causing in your life right now. Whether you choose to drinkless or not at all, you'll find lots of information to help you on your journey.
To learn more about Ellen check out her podcast Charting Toward Intimacy https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
And her on website
https://vinesinfullbloom.com/home
I'm here for you. I'm praying for you. You are NOT alone!
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Drink Less or Not at All FREE Guide: https://view.flodesk.com/pages/63a4abe81488000c28b9ba89
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the Catholic Sobriety Podcast, the
go-to resource for women seekingto have a deeper understanding
of the role alcohol plays intheir lives, women who are
looking to drink less or not atall for any reason.
I am your host, christi Walker.
I'm a wife, mom and ajoy-filled Catholic, and I am
(00:22):
the Catholic Sobriety Coach, andI am so glad you're here.
Are you worried that you won'tbe able to connect with your
husband fully once you reduce oreliminate alcohol from your
life?
Have you used alcohol as a wayto loosen up and get in the mood
(00:43):
for intimacy with your husband,and you're wondering what that
experience is going to be likewithout it?
If so, you are definitely notalone, because this is something
that comes up time and timeagain with the women that I work
with, and my guest today ishere and she is going to be able
(01:03):
to help.
My guest today is here and sheis going to be able to help.
So Ellen Holloway holds acertificate in the fundamentals
of sex therapy from BuellerInstitute and is in pursuit of
her Master's of Sacred Arts inTheology of the Body and New
Evangelization through thePontifex University.
In her work, ellen promotesnatural family planning and
(01:28):
Catholic teaching on sex andintimacy through her business
Vines in Full Bloom and throughher podcast Charting Toward
Intimacy Beyond NFP basics,ellen does one-on-one coaching
in sex and intimacy for Catholicwomen.
Thank you so much for beinghere, ellen.
(01:49):
I'm so happy to have you today.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I'm so happy to be here and talk about this topic.
This is a very, very importanttopic when it comes to sex and
intimacy that I think a lot oftimes, like just in the world,
we just get the wrong suggestion.
Oh yeah, when it comes toalcohol and sex.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yes, absolutely.
I wholeheartedly agree with youon that.
So that is why it's so greatthat you're here and, as I said
in the intro, this comes up somuch.
I just cannot believe it.
Actually, I can believe itbecause I understand why, but I
just feel like the moreinformation that a woman has,
(02:35):
the easier it's going to be tobe able to find ways to connect
that don't involve alcohol, andI know that you'll help us with
that.
So, to get started, why don'tyou tell us a little bit about
your journey and how you gotinto doing what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Absolutely yeah.
So when my husband and I firstgot married, when we first got
married, we were just veryuncatechized when it came to the
church's teaching on sex andintimacy and especially the
teaching on contraception, andultimately it led to a very
difficult first six months ofour marriage.
We both had a lot of woundswhen it came to sex and intimacy
(03:16):
and just starting off on thewrong foot with contraception in
our marriage really just putthings at rock bottom and it
took us years to get out of thathole.
And by the grace of God wefound NLP, we learned the church
(03:36):
teaching, we really embracedthat and then that led us to
just deeper understanding of thebeauty and the goodness of the
married sex relationship andjust what that really brings to
a marriage and what that reallybrings to the world.
And so once I kind of got overthe biggest hump of difficulty
there, I was like, wow, okay,now I need to help other women
(04:00):
who are struggling with sex andintimacy, whether it is from the
purity culture or just a reallysex negative culture where sex
was just it was bad, it wasdirty, it was oh, don't even
think or talk about it untilmarriage, or where it's just not
talked about at all.
There's just no speaking of sexor just like that pendulum swing
(04:23):
opposite of like, oh, sexdoesn't actually mean that much,
and having just more of thatopen sexual relationship and
then kind of coming to termswith realizing oh, that's
actually not how it works, andso that's really where I sit, is
that you know, there's just nota place for Catholic women to
(04:47):
find answers to practicalquestions about sex, like
there's plenty of answers aboutyou know what's what the church
teaches and you know what's OKand what's not OK and things
like that.
But when it comes topracticalities like, oh hey,
I've never actually experiencedsexual pleasure, but I don't
know what that is, or I've neveractually experienced sexual
pleasure, I mean, I don't knowwhat that is, or I'm scared to
(05:08):
death of sex and I just do itlike the bare minimum when my
husband wants to right, and justany of those kinds of
situations where it's like, okay, clearly this is not the
beautiful union that God reallycreated for husband and wife and
there's something missing here,and so that's where I sit and
those are the type of women thatI coach and the courses that's
(05:29):
what helps.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That's so great.
Yeah, it comes out like thework that I do, and I can hear
it from you.
The work that you do is like wewish that we had something like
this or someone speaking outthe way that you are about this
topic of you know when we, whenwe, were going through our
individual struggles, and so youknow, when you see a deficit,
(05:53):
then you want to still that andhelp people with what you've
learned and you know, sometimesit's with a lot of research and
trial and error and then you canbring that to others.
So I love the work that you'redoing.
I love that it's focused onCatholic marriage and intimacy
(06:14):
and, you know, just being asacrament in the world, because
marriage is so beautiful and soimportant to our world and our
culture.
So that leads me into those ofus who are married.
We know the importance ofconnecting with each other,
right, we know that to have agood relationship we need to
(06:37):
spend time together.
But so often I hear like womenwill come to me and say you know
, but, christy, like, my timewith my husband is like after
work, the kids go to bed, I pourmyself a wine, he has a whiskey
, we just talk.
You know, sometimes it hasnothing to do with the intimacy,
it's just that connection.
And they do it with alcohol andit even it accelerated even
(07:04):
more during the lockdowns andwhen everybody was home and they
didn't have to go anywhere.
And so I think that people kindof develop couples develop like
a habit or certain habits, andoftentimes it involves alcohol.
So that also leads to intimacyas well with alcohol.
(07:29):
So what can you tell us fromyour perspective about how
important intimacy is in themarriage and how it connects us
from our Catholic faithperspective?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know, and I think Ireally wanted to find a term
here for everyone listening,because a lot of times I hear
the word intimacy equated to sex.
That is not true.
Intimacy is so much more thansex and in fact, sex is simply a
fruit of a deeply intimaterelationship between husband and
(08:10):
wife.
Intimacy is not sex.
So if, if your immediatereaction to like intimacy with
my husband is like only sex,then we actually need to take a
step back and work on buildingintimacy outside of the bedroom
first.
I think that even just that iswhere sometimes we have this
(08:32):
issue with alcohol and sex isthat we don't have that
foundation of a strong, deepintimacy with our spouse, and
there's actually a little bit ofuncomfortability when it comes
to really I mean, just to speakbluntly getting naked in front
of our spouse.
Right, the act of sex is deeplyintimate.
(08:54):
That's why we need deepintimacy prior to even engaging
in sex with our spouse, and soif we don't have that foundation
of deep intimacy, alcohol canreally become a crutch to
letting those walls down andkind of allowing ourselves to
open up and be more comfortable,because ultimately we're
(09:17):
actually missing out on a levelof comfort that we should be
building with our spouse.
So I think one of the thingsthat is really important for
couples to just kind of takestock of is you know, am I
needing this alcohol in order tofeel close to my spouse?
(09:39):
In order or actually maybe evena better question is like am I
needing this time that we'resitting down having this glass
of wine, glass of whiskey,whatever?
Am I needing that in order tobe open enough with myself, to
share more deeply and or be opento having sex?
And if that answer is yes, oreven if that answer is sometimes
(10:05):
, then we need to take stock ofthe relationship itself, um, and
focus on building more of thatintimate relationship outside of
the bedroom.
One of the things I really liketo recommend to couples the five
love languages.
If you've never heard of it,it's a book by g Chapman.
He's got a ton of freeresources on his website.
(10:25):
You just if you is my spouse'slove language, then you can, you
(10:47):
know, step into filling theirtank and then your spouse in
turn is doing the same thing.
Right, and you're buildingintimacy by loving each other
and by you.
Know, if your love language isphysical touch, that doesn't
mean sex.
Physical touch means holdinghands and putting an arm around
(11:08):
you and giving a hug and givinga kiss, right?
If your love language is givinggifts, you know it doesn't have
to be big, extravagant gifts.
It can be a little note, youknow, in your husband's like
lunchbox or something right.
It can even be the gift ofpacking your husband's lunch for
him, right, like that's a gift.
I think sometimes we get alittle overwhelmed with the love
languages of like oh my gosh, Icouldn't possibly do all that.
(11:29):
It doesn't have to becomplicated.
But really focusing on thatfoundation of an intimate
relationship with husband andwife is absolutely key in a
marriage.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, I completely agree.
In a marriage yeah, Icompletely agree, and I so
appreciate the fact that youreally detailed that like that,
intimacy isn't just a sexual act, it's just kind of like the
prelude and what makes that Ilove that.
You said it's a fruit of thatintimacy between a husband and
wife and I can tell you like weused to have some issues, my
(12:07):
husband and I, but we went towhat's called a marriage
encounter it's a Catholicmarriage thing and we did that
like after 12 years of marriageand getting really honest with
each other and vulnerable.
It was worse than like gettingnaked in front of each other.
And vulnerable it was worsethan like getting naked it is.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It can be really scary to be that open and
vulnerable, and that's why werely on alcohol, because alcohol
easily puts us in that openspot where we're more
comfortable being vulnerable,like I think one of the most
interesting facts about alcoholis that, like, if you're trying
(12:47):
to learn a language, it'sactually easier to learn that
language if you've had a littlebit of alcohol, because what
alcohol does is it brings thosewalls down, doing if we're
(13:08):
relying on the alcohol to takeour walls down then in our
marriage, then we're actuallymissing out on a level of
intimacy.
Like when you're learning thatlanguage, you're afraid to make
mistakes, and so that's whybringing the walls down makes it
easier to learn a language,because you're not afraid of
making mistakes.
And I think and I think we'llget into this more later in our
conversation but there's so manyways to bring those walls down
(13:34):
that don't include alcohol, andthat is that's something that I
think everybody, everybody couldwork on whether or not you have
a difficult relationship withalcohol is that we don't need
alcohol to do that for us.
We can do that ourselves, butwe do need to focus on that
(13:54):
foundation of deep intimacyfirst and foremost.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, I agree, and it's a really slippery slope
with alcohol.
Right, it's not like horribleto do that, or you know, you go
out to dinner you like, are onvacation, you have you know
something to drink while you'reon the beach, and then it leads
to that.
So it's not that it shouldnever be part of the equation.
(14:19):
It's just that alcohol actuallynumbs the good with the bad, so
it inhibits your ability to befully present with your spouse
and really intimate, like youwere saying.
And so I really think that themore that we can have sex or
(14:42):
experience intimacy whetherthat's, like you said, holding
hands, cuddling, just beingtogether, being open with each
other, with our thoughts and ourdreams and our feelings and
emotions If we can do thatwithout alcohol, it's going to
be so much richer and producebetter fruits than when we're
(15:04):
numbed out, because it can bereally hard, even if you've had
a couple of glasses of wine, toreally maybe remember everything
or to have fully experiencedthat moment together.
And then again, I say it's aslippery slope, because if you
are relying on it as a crutch,then then pretty soon for some
(15:26):
women, then they think theycan't do it without it, they
can't connect and have reallyhonest conversations.
Without it, they don't thinkthat they can be vulnerable with
their husband.
Without it, and to be honestwith you, anybody can become
addicted to alcohol.
You don't have to have apredisposition, you don't have
(15:50):
to have a family history.
The more you drink, the moreoften you drink, the easier it
is to become dependent alcoholdependent.
We can just see that for whatit is now and not rely on it in
those situations, but use it for, you know, to enhance a moment,
(16:10):
or enhance, you know, whatever.
I don't drink at all, so Idon't use it.
But then there's other waysthat I do that.
You know that don't includealcohol.
Maybe it's a moth tail, maybeit's a non-alcoholic wine or
beer.
You know, it's just likecelebratory for me to do that
and not something I do all thetime, and the same thing with
(16:32):
alcohol.
So I think that that's reallyimportant to know as well.
Um, so, theology of the body Ilove, I love, love, love that
you're getting masters of that.
I mean, it's such such abeautiful uh doctrine is a
(16:53):
doctrine or teaching of thechurch.
What is it considered?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
so it's considered a, a papal teaching, um, which
means it's not a doctrine of thechurch.
So what Theology of the Body iswas a series of teachings that
Pope John Paul II gave over thecourse of five years.
There was breaks in between,but he broke this large book
(17:22):
that he had actually writtenprior to becoming Pope.
He broke it up into these smallchunks and he delivered them at
his Wednesday audiences.
All the Popes give a Wednesdayaudience, so he delivered them
kind of in sequence, with acouple of breaks for different
things over the course of fiveyears, and so it wasn't actually
(17:43):
until he finished deliveringthem and all of it was available
that then it kind of got putinto a book.
There was a new translation andnow we're just really starting
to get into the depth andgoodness and beauty that exists
within this beautiful peopleteaching.
But essentially it's a reallylong Bible study.
(18:06):
What Pope John Paul II did?
He took the Bible and he waslike let's learn about God
through the bodies that he madeus, because we're body, soul,
union and our body is part of us.
It's not just like the shellthat we're housed inside and
(18:27):
we're just waiting for our soulto be liberated from it.
That's not what we believe asCatholics.
We believe we are a body-soulunion, and so what happens to
our body is important.
What we do with our body isimportant.
It affects our soul.
That's why the relationship,the sexual relationship between
husband and wife is so deeplyintimate, because our bodies are
(18:49):
a part of us.
They're not just this thingthat we have, they are us, and
so what you do with your bodyand the way that you act
intimately with someone else ismassively affects your entire
self, your soul.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, thank you for breaking that out and
for noting that, because that isso important, because I do
think a lot of times peopleseparate the two.
But we are temples, right,temples of the Holy Spirit.
We are body, soul and, yeah,and in this culture, in today's
(19:36):
hookup culture, right, peopledon't realize what they're doing
when they're attachingthemselves to another person in
that way.
I certainly didn't, you know,and so it does cause a lot of,
you know, walls and trauma andwounds to form because of these,
and we see the why of it rightthrough these teachings, because
(19:58):
once you read it, you're like,oh well, that's why that's you
know.
You're like, oh well, that'swhy that's you know.
But can you so, elaborating ontheology of the body, how can it
guide couples to experiencing afulfilling and sacred intimacy
(20:19):
within their marriage?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Sure, yeah.
So you know, one of the thingsthat I like to kind of caveat
with Theology of the Body is, alot of times we see Theology of
the Body and we're like, oh,that's that thing over there,
and then the rest of Catholicismis over here, and really, what
Theology of the Body is?
A way to understand theentirety of the theology of the
(20:44):
Catholic Church through ourhumanity.
And so this was Pope John PaulII.
He was teaching us a new lens,a new pair of glasses through
which to view God and theologyand the church and just the
entire mystic life theology andthe church and just the entire
(21:09):
mystic life.
And so that's part of thereason why theology of the body
can actually just.
It can really influence everyaspect of our lives, but in
particular the union of husbandand wife.
When we look what the unionsignifies, it becomes pretty
deep, very, very quickly.
So the Trinity can be explainedin a lot of different ways, and
(21:36):
that's partially because wedon't fully understand the
Trinity right.
We're just not going tounderstand an incarnate,
ever-present, omnipotent,perfect God.
We're never going to understandeverything that goes on with
the Trinity, but we usedifferent images to help us
(21:57):
understand it.
So this is one image and thisis where we can see how the
marital union really impacts ourown theology is that the father
so we have the father, the sonand the spirit three persons of
the Trinity.
The father initiates the giftof love toward the son.
The son then receives, fullyreceives that gift from the
(22:22):
father, fully receives that giftfrom the father and in that
receiving of the gift becomes agift himself to give and give it
back to the father.
Then the father fully acceptsthat gift and further becomes a
gift back to the son.
So there's like this spiralthat is like ever deepening,
getting, it's getting bigger andbigger.
Thinking about about how theuniverse is ever-expanding.
(22:44):
The Trinity is also, in a way,ever-expanding and the Holy
Spirit is that love that isgoing between the Father and the
Son, that love that'sever-expanding.
(23:05):
Now let's look at the maritalrelationship and particularly
the act of intercourse and whatis biologically happening.
Because what theology of thebody allows us to do is we can
look at the biological and wecan help that can allow us to
inform the theological.
We can see how the biologicdesign that God has created in
our bodies helps us understandthese crazy deep concepts that
God has created in our bodieshelps us understand these crazy
(23:27):
deep concepts.
So what's happening in sex isthat the man initiates a gift of
himself.
He literally gives a part ofhimself to the woman and yeah,
I'm speaking really literallyhere and it might feel a little
uncomfortable, but I'm talkingabout firm he is physically
giving a part of himself to thewoman and the woman is
physically accepting like fullyaccepting that gift into herself
(23:52):
.
There's no deeper way that shecould accept the gift than by
actually bringing it intoherself.
And so, by accepting that gift,she is then becoming a gift of
herself back to her husband, andthen we see this same spiral
happening, is that then thehusband is receiving this gift
(24:15):
of his wife, this gift of herwhole person, and he's further
giving himself, his whole person, over to her and sometimes,
sometimes, that love turns intoa third person, right?
So we have this image of theTrinity happening every time
that a husband and wife cometogether, and I think it's also
(24:36):
important to kind of note that,like, even if a third person
doesn't result from that, thereis still a fruitful aspect to
every encounter, every sexualencounter that a husband and
wife have, if they're comingtogether freely, totally and
faithfully and giving themselvesfully to each other.
There is a fruitful aspect inthat the relationship is
(24:58):
deepening and that we'reactually opening ourselves up to
God even more, and that we'reactually opening ourselves up to
God even more.
So that's your quick version ofone tiny aspect of how Theology
of the Body can help usunderstand our marriages, and
then how our marriages can helpus understand God.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yes, oh my gosh.
I was like on the edge of myseat like I've never heard it
explained that before.
Very dynamic, I was like that'sso beautiful but, it really is.
It's so beautiful.
So I love your energy and Ilove the way that you explained
it, because I think that that issomething that, even if
(25:40):
somebody is not really sureabout theology of the body, but
has heard about it, I think thatthat is just a beautiful
imagery and an explanation thatcould really resonate with so
many of us.
So thank you for that.
So, with that in mind and youkind of touched on it earlier
(26:01):
when we were talking about someof the obstacles to intimacy
what are some misconceptionsabout sexual intimacy in
Catholic relationships?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Oh my gosh, the biggest one that I hear is a
misinterpretation of Ephesians 5, and it's the duty issue and
it's like it is the.
It's the duty of the wife togive sex to her husband and it's
just like there's so muchmissing in that interpretation.
(26:36):
Um, when we reduce the sexualrelationship to one of duty
because in in that case, then itjust becomes a checkbox, it
becomes something I have to do,it becomes it goes on the list
with the laundry and cleaningthe bathroom, and that is
probably the worst thing thatcould happen.
If sex goes on your likechecklist things I need to get
(27:00):
done this week list, itshouldn't.
Sex should be and I said thisbefore and this is just like
it's one of my lines that I sayall the time like it should be
the fruit of a deeply intimaterelationship.
And if you are solely havingsex out of this, just like
feeling of this is just what I'msupposed to do as a wife, then
(27:23):
we're missing out on theintimate aspect of sex.
It's like it's not an intimateact at that point.
It's simply just.
You're just trying to like takecare of something.
It's like you're trying to takecare of a dog and that's.
You know.
We're just, we're reallymissing something there.
(27:43):
Yeah, something, yeah, anothercommon one that I see and this
is going to bring us back alittle bit more into the alcohol
space is and this isn'tnecessarily with Catholic
marriages, but is that justcommon misconception of I can't
get relaxed enough for sexwithout that glass of wine.
(28:06):
I just need that glass of wineand I've been there.
That is part of my story.
I truly, truly believe thatthere was no way I could have
sex without having a glass ofwine or having a cocktail, and
it got to a point where that wasactually true, where I couldn't
(28:28):
, I could not relax enough, anda lot of that was due to issues
on a much deeper level that Ihad with sex and intimacy.
It actually had nothing to dowith relaxing enough.
That's what we tell ourselves.
We tell ourselves it's aboutrelaxing, but it's not.
(28:48):
It's not about relaxing.
What it ultimately is about ishealing our understanding and
relationship with sex and thenalso again building that
foundation of deep intimacy,because I had kind of again,
this is just part of my storyand I think a lot of women might
relate to it is that I had beenin sort of this understanding
(29:12):
of, okay, sex is just somethingthat my husband wants.
I don't really care about it.
I don't get any pleasure fromit.
I don't really care that muchabout it.
I could take it or leave it,but it's something he wants and
I'm supposed to give it to himbecause I'm married to him and
that's what a good Catholic wifedoes.
But I'm never interested in it,and so the only way I can get
there is buy a glass of wine,and so I have to have a glass of
(29:33):
wine in order to be a good wife.
And now suddenly we have justwrapped it up in our head into
something that is so not, andwe're missing out on love and
intimacy in that relationshipand really we're just kind of
again, we're checking the bar.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that part of it
and I have to tell you like yourenergy went from explaining
theology of the body and thewhole mystical union of the
trinity and you were like onfire.
It just like your energy was so.
And then when you were talkingabout duty, you're like, and
some women think it's so, youknow, and it really and that's
(30:15):
how it is.
If you think of it that way,then that's your energy as you
approach it.
But if you think about it inlike this is something so
beautiful and fruitful and youknow God created it for a reason
, then your energy is up andyou're more excited about that
(30:38):
and it isn't just then checkinga box.
So I love, I love that.
I was just like, I just noticedyour energy, just like.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
No, but it makes perfect sense.
Is that right, like, if wedon't have a full and true and
good understanding of like howamazing sex is like and I'm not,
I don't even talking about thepleasure aspect, I'm talking
about like just how amazing,like, theologically, sex is that
(31:08):
like?
There's just so much moreexcitement to coming into that,
and that's a lot of what I do incoaching with women and in some
of the courses that I have inthe podcast that I host is just
is building that understandingof like what we're coming into
and how good and beautiful it is.
Because, yeah, if it's notsomething that you enjoy, if
(31:32):
it's something that's painful,um, or it's just something that,
like, you just do to kind ofplacate your husband, yeah,
you're not going to come at itwith very much excitement
because that sounds terrible,like I don't want to have that
sex, like not at all, and Idon't want you to have that
either.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Which is why you do what you do.
I try to reach.
There's so much more.
There's so much more.
But I also appreciated the partof your story that illustrated,
like when you rely on alcoholas the crutch, or when you rely
on alcohol or lean into it atfirst to kind of help with that.
(32:17):
You know having sex with yourhusband or being open, but then
how it became, you know, a habitor something that you had to
have.
I think that so many womenlistening can just relate to
that.
So how did you get out of that?
Like how were you able to breakfree from the need for that
crutch and be able to reallyenjoy?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
being with your husband in all aspects.
Yeah, you know, it took.
It took a long time and it tooka lot of learning and as well
as like integrating thatlearning into myself.
One of the things I talk abouta lot is like we can learn.
We can learn a lot abouttheology and how great it you
know the marital act is and andwe can have that all up in our
(33:08):
head, but until we actuallyintegrate it into our life it's
gonna change anything.
Just knowing that sex likeimages, the trinity, that that's
great to know, but if you'renot integrating that actually
into the act itself and likeopening the act up to God and
the Holy Spirit and saying, makeup this act what you will, then
(33:32):
you know we brought me intoeven being willing to have sex
at the beginning Because I wasso deeply terrified of sex and
(33:56):
kind of honestly grossed out byit, just because of my
upbringing and a lot of shamethat had been built around sex
and intimacy, and so the onlyway that I could get past that
shame and that discomfort was, Ibelieved, through alcohol, as I
(34:19):
slowly learned more about thechurch teaching on contraception
.
I slowly learned more about thechurch teaching on contraception
and then that led me intobetter understanding, like just
the church's teaching on sex asa whole.
I really started digging intotheology of the body and
starting to understand some ofthose concepts as well.
(34:39):
When I started getting excitedabout really what sex was beyond
just this like thing I have todo, that's when alcohol just
dropped naturally for me out ofthe picture because it was like
it became something that Iwasn't forcing myself to do
anymore.
(34:59):
I was actually really excitedto do and excited to come
together with my spouse and openup to in that way.
And I think that for some womenlike that might be the journey,
that that might be theexperiential journey is that
alcohol just kind of naturallydrops out, like it did for
myself.
But I think in other cases itdoes need to be a cognitive
(35:24):
decision to say no, I'm notgoing to allow this to be a
crutch anymore.
I'm not because I don't need itto be, but I do recognize that
I'm going to have to work hard,I'm going to have to learn, I'm
going to have to pray, I'm goingto have to open up to my
husband, I'm going to have to bebrave.
I think that's something wedon't talk a lot about when it
(35:46):
comes to sex is that there'sbravery needed to open up and be
that vulnerable.
And if we've been relying onalcohol, then there's like even
more bravery that needs to bepresent, because how we act with
alcohol is so can be sodifferent than how we act
(36:06):
without alcohol and we might beembarrassed about things we've
said or done with alcohol withour husband that actually are
completely and totallyappropriate.
One example might be likewearing lingerie and giving a
little strip tease.
That is completely and totallyappropriate for a husband and
(36:28):
wife to do.
But if you're in a space whereyou're not quite comfortable
with your body in that way,you're not quite comfortable
with sex in that way and maybethere's still some fear of
vulnerability with your husband,if you're not in that place but
you've done something like thatunder the influence of a little
(36:49):
bit of alcohol or maybe a lotof alcohol, there might be a lot
of embarrassment and shame andyou might kind of feel like, oh
my gosh, do I always have to actlike that?
I'm not even comfortable doingthat and I just want to tell
anybody who's like feeling thatfear with like oh my gosh, if I
take alcohol away from the sexsituation like I don't know.
(37:12):
I don't know what I'm going todo.
I just want you to take a deepbreath.
Your husband loves you, heloves you and it's okay to tell
him you're embarrassed by whatyou did one time under the
influence of alcohol or a lot oftimes.
Right, it's okay to tell him.
(37:33):
And it's also okay to be likehey, I'm like I know you really
like it when I I'll go on thesame example of laundry.
I know you really like it whenI wear laundry.
But like I'm not there yet, I'mnot comfortable with that,
(37:53):
that's okay.
Like you're allowed to takeyour sexual relationship back a
couple of steps if alcohol kindof pushed it more forward than
where you're ready for, and thatis totally okay.
I just want to give youpermission for that.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Oh, I love that.
Thank you so much for that,because I think that that is
something that is so.
It is something that happensright, and it is something that,
where it can be, you know, youdon't you.
In marriage, you think, oh, youshouldn't be embarrassed by any
anything and everything shouldbe fine.
(38:25):
But there are times when it'slike you know, we did that, I
didn't really enjoy it, itdidn't really make me feel
comfortable.
Can we maybe not do that?
Or I'm not ready for that now.
So I am so glad that you liketouched on that and really
explained that and just gavewomen permission to be like you
know, just opening up andtalking about it, and that
(38:49):
actually is a great example ofintimacy, right, that you can
have that conversation.
And I'm sure a lot of womendon't necessarily think that
their husband wants to see thatreal part of them, but he does.
He wants the real you, he wantsthe authentic you.
(39:12):
He doesn't want the lubricatedor he doesn't.
You don't have to always be onfor him Like.
He wants you fully and you asyou, as you are, because that's
who he fell in love with you asyou as you are, because that's
who he fell in love with exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
No, that's so important, it's it.
It's something, too, that we aswomen we have to like tell
ourselves that probably everysingle day, like my husband
actually means it when he tellsme I love, that, he loves me.
And my husband actually meansit when he tells me that my body
is beautiful, even though Idon't think it is.
And you know, it's like, yeah,we have to constantly remind
ourselves of that.
But, guy, like ladies, yourhusband's not lying to you.
(39:53):
He loves you and he really does.
And once he wants you and youmight not, you know, might not
do strip teases in lingerie, andthat's okay.
Or you right now might not dothat, but maybe you, in five
(40:14):
years, stir a lot of work andhealing and loving between you
and your husband.
Maybe then you does stripteases in lingerie, but you
don't need to let that besomething that stops you from
just opening up to your husband.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, I think that that.
So I just there was a recentFather Mike Schmitz did a homily
on divine mercy and in it hetalked about our greatest wound
being a wound of distrust, right, and so that can be caused from
different types of trauma orexperiences that we've had, and
so I think that, as you'respeaking, it just reminded me of
(40:56):
you know, we have most of us,probably all of us have some
level of distrust, and so we'rethinking, oh, he's not happy
with me, he's not happy with me,he's not satisfied with me,
he's not, you know, but theseare just attack, right Of like
division.
So these thoughts are justattacks from the evil one that
(41:19):
are trying to divide you and,like you said, your husband
loves you and just believe thatand trust that and that is why
you're together, just believethat and trust that and that is
why you're together.
And the more intimacy that youhave, the easier it is to really
believe that, and then I thinkit just becomes a lot easier
just to be intimate and open.
(41:40):
So another thing that comes upis what if and I mean this
happens a lot so what if thereare different levels of comfort
with intimacy or desire?
So how do couples kind ofnavigate that?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Sure, yeah, when it comes to differing levels of
comfort with things, a coupleneeds to default to the person
who's least comfortable.
That is out of respect and lovefor the person who is still
like a little further back onthe journey, right?
So there's a wonderful bookwritten by Dr Gregory Popcak.
(42:23):
It's called Holy Sex.
It's a great, you know, justentry point into learning about
the goodness and the beauty ofsex.
And he gives a really goodexample in the book about.
He's talking about differentpositions and the wife is not
comfortable with that position.
She doesn't like it.
(42:45):
There's just she has lots offeelings about it and just
different reasons why shedoesn't like it.
But the husband really wants totry it and would really like to
do it.
And in conversation they havethis conversation and she's able
to open up to the husband andexplain this is why it feels
(43:06):
uncomfortable to me, this is whyI don't want it.
You know all of this kind ofthing.
And then the husband's able toopen up and say this is why I'm
interested in doing thisposition, this is why I want to.
And they come to terms with thefact that, like, she's still
very much uncomfortable with it,even though he has some really
beautiful good reason forwanting to try this position,
(43:27):
and so they don't.
But then, after a period oftime I don't remember if it was
several months or maybe evenyears but the wife had really
kept this in mind and hadbrought it to prayer and had
recognized that her husband didhave some really valid reason
for wanting to try this positionthat he wasn't comfortable with
.
Her husband did have somereally valid reason for wanting
(43:48):
to try this position that shewasn't comfortable with, and
eventually she did actually cometo a point where she was like
you know what, let's try it.
But they defaulted to her levelof comfort and let her take the
lead on this because it wassomething she was not
comfortable with yet.
And that has to happen becausethe act of sex is so vulnerable,
(44:09):
so vulnerable that we can't letcoercion into uncomfortable
acts or uncomfortable positionsor things like that.
We can't let that enter intothis vulnerable act, for else
the person who is uncomfortableis going to shut down even more,
(44:32):
and then it's like you're goingto be taking more steps back on
the journey, and so for wiveswho are in the position of being
more uncomfortable aboutcertain things, it actually
takes some assertion.
You need to be very clear andsay look, I'm not comfortable
with that.
(44:53):
I am totally willing to dothese things.
Maybe it's I'm not comfortablewith kissing your neck, I don't
know, but I'm willing to kissyou on the lips and I'm willing
to kiss you on the cheek andother places.
I'm just not comfortable withkissing your neck right now.
(45:14):
Right, and that has to be OK.
The husband in that situationcannot coerce or require her to
kiss his neck.
He has to be all right withthat, his neck.
He has to be all right withthat.
And so you know I think this issomething that the more
uncomfortable person will oftenbe kind of afraid to say
(45:35):
something or will just kind of,you know, just be on the more
meat side about the situationbecause of the discomfort.
And so this is again wherebravery is necessary that if
you're trying to get morecomfortable with sex, then at
this point you cannot do thingsyou're uncomfortable with,
because it's only going to makeyou more uncomfortable with sex
(45:57):
as a whole.
And so it's important that youcommunicate the things that you
are comfortable with.
You know, maybe, again, maybeit's like positions, you know,
maybe you're you're comfortablewith missionary, um, but but you
don't like the idea of aposition that's more upright.
Or or you you like man on top,but you're not comfortable with
(46:17):
women on top.
You know something like that.
I think there's a lot ofdiscomfort with certain
positions that happen.
You've got to say it out loudand then that has to be
respected.
And if it's not respected, thenyou know you as the person who
are who's uncomfortable withthat.
You have to stop the act atthat point and you say, look,
(46:39):
this has to be respected.
This is a boundary I have putdown and this is very important
to me, that we respect this.
So either we need to stop rightnow or we need to take a step
back, and I need you to respectmy position on my feelings about
this position.
Or you know this, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
That's so good and that gives people that is women
language and like a way toexpress that, because I think
that that comes up a lot withinthe act.
And so just knowing that it'sokay to stop and say like I'm
not comfortable with this, andknowing that sometimes, if we
push through, you know that'shorrible, it's not helpful,
(47:23):
pushing through is not gonnahelp.
Yeah, it's just gonna deepenthat you know anxiety and that
the desire not to do the act,not to have sex with your
husband, because you're havingto look forward to it, because
and you're going to be like, oh,do we have to do that thing
that I didn't like, that youknow.
So I think, like you weresaying, be bold, brave, speak up
(47:46):
and let him know, because,honestly, he doesn't know if you
don't tell him.
Right, it's like he won't knowif you don't tell him and he'll
just think it's fine.
So being able to speak up is agift to yourself, but it's also
a gift to him, so that hedoesn't.
You know, oftentimes they don'twant to do something that's
going to make you superuncomfortable because they love
(48:10):
you and this is a loving act andso by telling him that then
you're just going to enjoyhaving sex more and and that
strengthens the intimacy betweenyou because you've been open
and honest, and then it justhelps your relationship in
general.
I think absolutely, yeah.
(48:31):
So just before I tell everybody, how do you tell everybody
where they can find you and anyresources you have?
Is there anything else that youwant my listeners to know?
Or do you have anything else tooffer couples as their um, like
(48:52):
any other tips as couples aretrying to maybe just even have
those nightly moments togetherafter the kids go to bed without
alcohol?
Any tips and tricks that youhave in that regard, all any
tips and tricks that you have inthat regard?
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
You know.
One tip and this is just goingto sound so canned, but honestly
it's tried and true and itworks is just switching the
liquid, you know, switching itto tea or switching it to a
mocktail or some special fundrink.
That can be helpful as well,right, if you just have
something that is really setaside for that time with your
(49:31):
spouse as a special so-and-so orsomething that you have.
Another thing is you know thattime that you're spending
together, that is, it's a date,whether or not it like it's not
a date outright, but that youare dating your spouse when
you're just sitting chattingabout your day and whatever.
And so I think something thatwe need to reframe is what a
(49:57):
date is and when a date canhappen.
And a lot of times it's like,oh yeah, well, the only time I
see my husband is after the kidsgo to bed and then we can just
sit and chat for a little bit.
Well, there's a lot ofunderrated ways to date your
spouse.
One way is what if, instead ofstaying up a little bit later,
(50:17):
you just got up a half hourearlier and you had a date at 5
am Again?
with tea or coffee Not withalcohol at that time, right.
And then now you've put alcoholcompletely off the table here
in this opportunity to chat andget to know each other.
If you have younger kids, Ithink one of the best places to
(50:42):
date yourself is on the parkbench, because you take your
kids to the park, they go andplay with the other kids that
are there, and you're justsitting on the park bench
watching your kids and chitchatting about your day.
Going for a walk can be helpful, right, something that's
distracting the kid, you know,just going.
(51:04):
I think another one that can bereally helpful again this is
with younger kids, because Ihave younger kids, right is
going to the zoo or somethingsimilar, because they're, like,
very interested in the animalsand like seeing what's there, or
like a children's museum too.
That can be a great place tohave that connection time with
(51:25):
yourself, because, yeah, okay,animals, animals are cool.
But, like, you're probably notquite as interested as your
six-year-old in the giraffes,right, and so your six-year-old
can go be excited about thegiraffes and watch them eat
leaves for 10 minutes while youand your husband sit and chat on
the bench that's sitting rightthere, because zoos have a lot
of benches um they do and Ithink it's for reason.
(51:47):
I think it's for husband andwife to just know each other
more.
But just like reframing thatopportunity to connect that that
is not the only opportunity toconnect.
That time after your kids go tobed it might be the most
convenient, I will give you that.
But we're not looking forconvenience here.
(52:08):
We're looking forprioritization of something
that's really important anddating your spouse, getting to
know them, living in that.
You know that intimacy, thatdeep intimacy.
That is a priority and we needto make it a priority.
And so you know something thatthe reason I suggested getting
up early is that's actuallysomething that my husband and I
(52:30):
started doing about a year ago.
It took us a long time to getinto a groove of it, but we get
up early.
We get up about an hour beforethe kids get up and we just sit
and chat for about a half hourand then we go get ready for the
day and I have a cup of tea andwe just figure out what's going
(52:50):
on with our day.
We talk about the prior dayBecause a lot of times at night
I am way too tired to actuallyeven open up and connect or I'm
too stressed out from the day,and I think that's where alcohol
comes in.
A lot too, it've got, we've hada very high stress day and we
feel that need to bringourselves down and relax, and so
(53:13):
if you're connecting firstthing in the morning, you
haven't had the stress of theday yet and hopefully you had a
good night's sleep and soactually you're feeling the
least stressed that you're gonnabe all long and so you don't
need that helper in relaxation.
Another thing that I wanted tomention about alcohol and this
(53:34):
can be particularly helpful forthose of you who, just you know,
having a little bit of alcoholis fine in your life and it's
not something that you want tocompletely give up.
But you're just recognizing Ineed to take a step back from it
, and maybe after thisconversation you're like wow, I
really need to take a step backfrom it.
(53:54):
In my intimate life especiallyIs when you have a glass of wine
.
There really is, there is thatrelaxation effect in it and it
brings you into a very open andvulnerable state, and I think it
can actually be very helpfulfor us to take note what that
really feels like, what being inthat open and vulnerable space
(54:18):
really feels like, and maybeeven jotting down some feelings
that you had after having thatglass of wine and really like
you, you know, and just being ashonest as you can be, like, oh
I think my husband looks sexierafter I have a glass of right
right, and and just jotting downor or just cognitively thinking
(54:39):
what those feelings are, howyour body is feeling, because
your body changes as well.
Um, how much much looser areyour muscles feeling, or are you
more comfortable moving yourbody in different ways?
Because when we can notice whatalcohol really does to us, we
can actually bring ourselves tothat point without the help of
(55:01):
alcohol and we can just work ongetting that comfortability with
our body.
That's a really common one isthat alcohol will just, it'll
help us be more comfortable.
You see people right at a clubor a bar.
They're more comfortable likedancing and moving their body a
lot of ways because the alcoholis getting them in that
comfortability.
And so maybe that means doingsome body work, doing some just
(55:26):
really aware stretching andmovement of your body in like a
prayerful way that you're justlike getting to know your own
body, getting to know your hipsand your legs and your arms and
your breasts more, so thatyou're more comfortable moving
them in front of your husbandand without alcohol, right?
(55:49):
So you know, I think that wecan learn, we can actually learn
from the use of a glass of wine, and we can learn some ways
that we can be more comfortablein our own body and as well as
like be more comfortable justaround our husband and the way
that we speak and the way thatwe just interact and things like
(56:10):
that.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Well, those are some really awesome tips, Ellen.
Thank you so much.
So much good stuff there.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
I'm happy to share.
Yeah, so we have to wrap upjust for the sake of time, but
please tell my listeners wherethey can find you and any
resources that you have thatcould benefit them.
I mean, you've provided so muchamazing information on the
podcast today and I'm just sograteful for you, but let them
(56:43):
know where they can find outeven more, because I know
they're going to want to.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Absolutely so.
The first place to find me iswherever you listen to podcasts.
You're already listening to apodcast, so you can find me on
the current app that you areusing.
My podcast is charting towardintimacy.
It's toward, not towards.
Don't put an S on there,because sometimes search
(57:06):
functions don't find it.
Hindsight is 2020, naming mypodcast, that's for sure, but
Charting Toward Intimacy that'sthe name of my podcast.
Vines in Full Bloom is mycompany name, so Vines in Full
Bloom.
You can find the courses and thecoaching that I do.
I'm on Instagram at chartingtoward intimacy as well.
(57:29):
I have a course specifically onorgasms for Catholic women, for
women who rarely or never haveexperienced sexual pleasure, and
it's all about really like morethan just the physical aspect
the physical, mental,psychological and spiritual
aspects of sexual pleasure andthe goodness of it and why it's
(57:51):
worth looking for.
And I also have a brand newcourse brand spanking new, if
you're listening to this podcastin real time called the
Catholic Sex Course for Women,and it's really just a dive into
where we, as women, need tolike, feel when it comes to sex
(58:13):
and intimacy and understandinglike really what sex is, why we
need it, and then learning somemindset shifts that we might
need to make from a history of adifficult, you know,
relationship with sex whetherthat was purity of a difficult
you know relationship with sex,whether that was purity culture
side, or you know more that opensex culture, and then you know
(58:36):
how to integrate that into ourrelationship with our husband,
communication, things like that.
So you can find all of that onmy website,
mindswithpulledbloomcom, withthat on my website
findsofthefullbloomcom.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Thank you so much, and I will leave links to some
of that in my show notes so thatit'll make it easy for people
to find you and find youramazing podcast.
Ellen, thank you so much forthe work that you are doing.
First and foremost, I know thatit's going to help so many
Catholic women and just havingthis conversation I know that
it's going to help so manyCatholic women and just having
this conversation I know, hasbeen very enlightening for me as
(59:12):
well, and I know it will be forothers.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Thanks for having me.
Well, that does it for thisepisode of the Catholic Sobriety
Podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I would invite you to share
it with a friend who might alsoget value from it as well, and
make sure you subscribe so youdon't miss a thing.
(59:34):
I am the Catholic SobrietyCoach, and if you would like to
learn how to work with me orlearn more about the coaching
that I offer, visit my website,thecatholicsobrietycoachcom.
Follow me on Instagram at theCatholic Sobriety Coach.
I look forward to speaking toyou next time and remember I am
(01:00:00):
here for you.
I am praying for you.
You are not alone.
Welcome to the Catholic Sobriety Podcast, the
go-to resource for women seekingto have a deeper understanding
of the role alcohol plays intheir lives, women who are
looking to drink less or not atall for any reason.
I am your host, christi Walker.
I'm a wife, mom and ajoy-filled Catholic, and I am
(00:22):
the Catholic Sobriety Coach, andI am so glad you're here.
Are you worried that you won'tbe able to connect with your
husband fully once you reduce oreliminate alcohol from your
life?
Have you used alcohol as a wayto loosen up and get in the mood
(00:43):
for intimacy with your husband,and you're wondering what that
experience is going to be likewithout it?
If so, you are definitely notalone, because this is something
that comes up time and timeagain with the women that I work
with, and my guest today ishere and she is going to be able
(01:03):
to help.
My guest today is here and sheis going to be able to help.
So Ellen Holloway holds acertificate in the fundamentals
of sex therapy from BuellerInstitute and is in pursuit of
her Master's of Sacred Arts inTheology of the Body and New
Evangelization through thePontifex University.
In her work, ellen promotesnatural family planning and
(01:28):
Catholic teaching on sex andintimacy through her business
Vines in Full Bloom and throughher podcast Charting Toward
Intimacy Beyond NFP basics,ellen does one-on-one coaching
in sex and intimacy for Catholicwomen.
Thank you so much for beinghere, ellen.
(01:49):
I'm so happy to have you today.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
I'm so happy to be here and talk about this topic.
This is a very, very importanttopic when it comes to sex and
intimacy that I think a lot oftimes, like just in the world,
we just get the wrong suggestion.
Oh yeah, when it comes toalcohol and sex.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yes, absolutely.
I wholeheartedly agree with youon that.
So that is why it's so greatthat you're here and, as I said
in the intro, this comes up somuch.
I just cannot believe it.
Actually, I can believe itbecause I understand why, but I
just feel like the moreinformation that a woman has,
(02:35):
the easier it's going to be tobe able to find ways to connect
that don't involve alcohol, andI know that you'll help us with
that.
So, to get started, why don'tyou tell us a little bit about
your journey and how you gotinto doing what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Absolutely yeah.
So when my husband and I firstgot married, when we first got
married, we were just veryuncatechized when it came to the
church's teaching on sex andintimacy and especially the
teaching on contraception, andultimately it led to a very
difficult first six months ofour marriage.
We both had a lot of woundswhen it came to sex and intimacy
(03:16):
and just starting off on thewrong foot with contraception in
our marriage really just putthings at rock bottom and it
took us years to get out of thathole.
And by the grace of God wefound NLP, we learned the church
(03:36):
teaching, we really embracedthat and then that led us to
just deeper understanding of thebeauty and the goodness of the
married sex relationship andjust what that really brings to
a marriage and what that reallybrings to the world.
And so once I kind of got overthe biggest hump of difficulty
there, I was like, wow, okay,now I need to help other women
(04:00):
who are struggling with sex andintimacy, whether it is from the
purity culture or just a reallysex negative culture where sex
was just it was bad, it wasdirty, it was oh, don't even
think or talk about it untilmarriage, or where it's just not
talked about at all.
There's just no speaking of sexor just like that pendulum swing
(04:23):
opposite of like, oh, sexdoesn't actually mean that much,
and having just more of thatopen sexual relationship and
then kind of coming to termswith realizing oh, that's
actually not how it works, andso that's really where I sit, is
that you know, there's just nota place for Catholic women to
(04:47):
find answers to practicalquestions about sex, like
there's plenty of answers aboutyou know what's what the church
teaches and you know what's OKand what's not OK and things
like that.
But when it comes topracticalities like, oh hey,
I've never actually experiencedsexual pleasure, but I don't
know what that is, or I've neveractually experienced sexual
pleasure, I mean, I don't knowwhat that is, or I'm scared to
(05:08):
death of sex and I just do itlike the bare minimum when my
husband wants to right, and justany of those kinds of
situations where it's like, okay, clearly this is not the
beautiful union that God reallycreated for husband and wife and
there's something missing here,and so that's where I sit and
those are the type of women thatI coach and the courses that's
(05:29):
what helps.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That's so great.
Yeah, it comes out like thework that I do, and I can hear
it from you.
The work that you do is like wewish that we had something like
this or someone speaking outthe way that you are about this
topic of you know when we, whenwe, were going through our
individual struggles, and so youknow, when you see a deficit,
(05:53):
then you want to still that andhelp people with what you've
learned and you know, sometimesit's with a lot of research and
trial and error and then you canbring that to others.
So I love the work that you'redoing.
I love that it's focused onCatholic marriage and intimacy
(06:14):
and, you know, just being asacrament in the world, because
marriage is so beautiful and soimportant to our world and our
culture.
So that leads me into those ofus who are married.
We know the importance ofconnecting with each other,
right, we know that to have agood relationship we need to
(06:37):
spend time together.
But so often I hear like womenwill come to me and say you know
, but, christy, like, my timewith my husband is like after
work, the kids go to bed, I pourmyself a wine, he has a whiskey
, we just talk.
You know, sometimes it hasnothing to do with the intimacy,
it's just that connection.
And they do it with alcohol andit even it accelerated even
(07:04):
more during the lockdowns andwhen everybody was home and they
didn't have to go anywhere.
And so I think that people kindof develop couples develop like
a habit or certain habits, andoftentimes it involves alcohol.
So that also leads to intimacyas well with alcohol.
(07:29):
So what can you tell us fromyour perspective about how
important intimacy is in themarriage and how it connects us
from our Catholic faithperspective?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you know, and I think Ireally wanted to find a term
here for everyone listening,because a lot of times I hear
the word intimacy equated to sex.
That is not true.
Intimacy is so much more thansex and in fact, sex is simply a
fruit of a deeply intimaterelationship between husband and
(08:10):
wife.
Intimacy is not sex.
So if, if your immediatereaction to like intimacy with
my husband is like only sex,then we actually need to take a
step back and work on buildingintimacy outside of the bedroom
first.
I think that even just that iswhere sometimes we have this
(08:32):
issue with alcohol and sex isthat we don't have that
foundation of a strong, deepintimacy with our spouse, and
there's actually a little bit ofuncomfortability when it comes
to really I mean, just to speakbluntly getting naked in front
of our spouse.
Right, the act of sex is deeplyintimate.
(08:54):
That's why we need deepintimacy prior to even engaging
in sex with our spouse, and soif we don't have that foundation
of deep intimacy, alcohol canreally become a crutch to
letting those walls down andkind of allowing ourselves to
open up and be more comfortable,because ultimately we're
(09:17):
actually missing out on a levelof comfort that we should be
building with our spouse.
So I think one of the thingsthat is really important for
couples to just kind of takestock of is you know, am I
needing this alcohol in order tofeel close to my spouse?
(09:39):
In order or actually maybe evena better question is like am I
needing this time that we'resitting down having this glass
of wine, glass of whiskey,whatever?
Am I needing that in order tobe open enough with myself, to
share more deeply and or be opento having sex?
And if that answer is yes, oreven if that answer is sometimes
(10:05):
, then we need to take stock ofthe relationship itself, um, and
focus on building more of thatintimate relationship outside of
the bedroom.
One of the things I really liketo recommend to couples the five
love languages.
If you've never heard of it,it's a book by g Chapman.
He's got a ton of freeresources on his website.
(10:25):
You just if you is my spouse'slove language, then you can, you
(10:47):
know, step into filling theirtank and then your spouse in
turn is doing the same thing.
Right, and you're buildingintimacy by loving each other
and by you.
Know, if your love language isphysical touch, that doesn't
mean sex.
Physical touch means holdinghands and putting an arm around
(11:08):
you and giving a hug and givinga kiss, right?
If your love language is givinggifts, you know it doesn't have
to be big, extravagant gifts.
It can be a little note, youknow, in your husband's like
lunchbox or something right.
It can even be the gift ofpacking your husband's lunch for
him, right, like that's a gift.
I think sometimes we get alittle overwhelmed with the love
languages of like oh my gosh, Icouldn't possibly do all that.
(11:29):
It doesn't have to becomplicated.
But really focusing on thatfoundation of an intimate
relationship with husband andwife is absolutely key in a
marriage.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Yeah, I completely agree.
In a marriage yeah, Icompletely agree, and I so
appreciate the fact that youreally detailed that like that,
intimacy isn't just a sexual act, it's just kind of like the
prelude and what makes that Ilove that.
You said it's a fruit of thatintimacy between a husband and
wife and I can tell you like weused to have some issues, my
(12:07):
husband and I, but we went towhat's called a marriage
encounter it's a Catholicmarriage thing and we did that
like after 12 years of marriageand getting really honest with
each other and vulnerable.
It was worse than like gettingnaked in front of each other.
And vulnerable it was worsethan like getting naked it is.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
It can be really scary to be that open and
vulnerable, and that's why werely on alcohol, because alcohol
easily puts us in that openspot where we're more
comfortable being vulnerable,like I think one of the most
interesting facts about alcoholis that, like, if you're trying
(12:47):
to learn a language, it'sactually easier to learn that
language if you've had a littlebit of alcohol, because what
alcohol does is it brings thosewalls down, doing if we're
(13:08):
relying on the alcohol to takeour walls down then in our
marriage, then we're actuallymissing out on a level of
intimacy.
Like when you're learning thatlanguage, you're afraid to make
mistakes, and so that's whybringing the walls down makes it
easier to learn a language,because you're not afraid of
making mistakes.
And I think and I think we'llget into this more later in our
conversation but there's so manyways to bring those walls down
(13:34):
that don't include alcohol, andthat is that's something that I
think everybody, everybody couldwork on whether or not you have
a difficult relationship withalcohol is that we don't need
alcohol to do that for us.
We can do that ourselves, butwe do need to focus on that
(13:54):
foundation of deep intimacyfirst and foremost.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, I agree, and it's a really slippery slope
with alcohol.
Right, it's not like horribleto do that, or you know, you go
out to dinner you like, are onvacation, you have you know
something to drink while you'reon the beach, and then it leads
to that.
So it's not that it shouldnever be part of the equation.
(14:19):
It's just that alcohol actuallynumbs the good with the bad, so
it inhibits your ability to befully present with your spouse
and really intimate, like youwere saying.
And so I really think that themore that we can have sex or
(14:42):
experience intimacy whetherthat's, like you said, holding
hands, cuddling, just beingtogether, being open with each
other, with our thoughts and ourdreams and our feelings and
emotions If we can do thatwithout alcohol, it's going to
be so much richer and producebetter fruits than when we're
(15:04):
numbed out, because it can bereally hard, even if you've had
a couple of glasses of wine, toreally maybe remember everything
or to have fully experiencedthat moment together.
And then again, I say it's aslippery slope, because if you
are relying on it as a crutch,then then pretty soon for some
(15:26):
women, then they think theycan't do it without it, they
can't connect and have reallyhonest conversations.
Without it, they don't thinkthat they can be vulnerable with
their husband.
Without it, and to be honestwith you, anybody can become
addicted to alcohol.
You don't have to have apredisposition, you don't have
(15:50):
to have a family history.
The more you drink, the moreoften you drink, the easier it
is to become dependent alcoholdependent.
We can just see that for whatit is now and not rely on it in
those situations, but use it for, you know, to enhance a moment,
(16:10):
or enhance, you know, whatever.
I don't drink at all, so Idon't use it.
But then there's other waysthat I do that.
You know that don't includealcohol.
Maybe it's a moth tail, maybeit's a non-alcoholic wine or
beer.
You know, it's just likecelebratory for me to do that
and not something I do all thetime, and the same thing with
(16:32):
alcohol.
So I think that that's reallyimportant to know as well.
Um, so, theology of the body Ilove, I love, love, love that
you're getting masters of that.
I mean, it's such such abeautiful uh doctrine is a
(16:53):
doctrine or teaching of thechurch.
What is it considered?
Speaker 2 (16:57):
so it's considered a, a papal teaching, um, which
means it's not a doctrine of thechurch.
So what Theology of the Body iswas a series of teachings that
Pope John Paul II gave over thecourse of five years.
There was breaks in between,but he broke this large book
(17:22):
that he had actually writtenprior to becoming Pope.
He broke it up into these smallchunks and he delivered them at
his Wednesday audiences.
All the Popes give a Wednesdayaudience, so he delivered them
kind of in sequence, with acouple of breaks for different
things over the course of fiveyears, and so it wasn't actually
(17:43):
until he finished deliveringthem and all of it was available
that then it kind of got putinto a book.
There was a new translation andnow we're just really starting
to get into the depth andgoodness and beauty that exists
within this beautiful peopleteaching.
But essentially it's a reallylong Bible study.
(18:06):
What Pope John Paul II did?
He took the Bible and he waslike let's learn about God
through the bodies that he madeus, because we're body, soul,
union and our body is part of us.
It's not just like the shellthat we're housed inside and
(18:27):
we're just waiting for our soulto be liberated from it.
That's not what we believe asCatholics.
We believe we are a body-soulunion, and so what happens to
our body is important.
What we do with our body isimportant.
It affects our soul.
That's why the relationship,the sexual relationship between
husband and wife is so deeplyintimate, because our bodies are
(18:49):
a part of us.
They're not just this thingthat we have, they are us, and
so what you do with your bodyand the way that you act
intimately with someone else ismassively affects your entire
self, your soul.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, thank you for breaking that out and
for noting that, because that isso important, because I do
think a lot of times peopleseparate the two.
But we are temples, right,temples of the Holy Spirit.
We are body, soul and, yeah,and in this culture, in today's
(19:36):
hookup culture, right, peopledon't realize what they're doing
when they're attachingthemselves to another person in
that way.
I certainly didn't, you know,and so it does cause a lot of,
you know, walls and trauma andwounds to form because of these,
and we see the why of it rightthrough these teachings, because
(19:58):
once you read it, you're like,oh well, that's why that's you
know.
You're like, oh well, that'swhy that's you know.
But can you so, elaborating ontheology of the body, how can it
guide couples to experiencing afulfilling and sacred intimacy
(20:19):
within their marriage?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Sure, yeah.
So you know, one of the thingsthat I like to kind of caveat
with Theology of the Body is, alot of times we see Theology of
the Body and we're like, oh,that's that thing over there,
and then the rest of Catholicismis over here, and really, what
Theology of the Body is?
A way to understand theentirety of the theology of the
(20:44):
Catholic Church through ourhumanity.
And so this was Pope John PaulII.
He was teaching us a new lens,a new pair of glasses through
which to view God and theologyand the church and just the
entire mystic life theology andthe church and just the entire
(21:09):
mystic life.
And so that's part of thereason why theology of the body
can actually just.
It can really influence everyaspect of our lives, but in
particular the union of husbandand wife.
When we look what the unionsignifies, it becomes pretty
deep, very, very quickly.
So the Trinity can be explainedin a lot of different ways, and
(21:36):
that's partially because wedon't fully understand the
Trinity right.
We're just not going tounderstand an incarnate,
ever-present, omnipotent,perfect God.
We're never going to understandeverything that goes on with
the Trinity, but we usedifferent images to help us
(21:57):
understand it.
So this is one image and thisis where we can see how the
marital union really impacts ourown theology is that the father
so we have the father, the sonand the spirit three persons of
the Trinity.
The father initiates the giftof love toward the son.
The son then receives, fullyreceives that gift from the
(22:22):
father, fully receives that giftfrom the father and in that
receiving of the gift becomes agift himself to give and give it
back to the father.
Then the father fully acceptsthat gift and further becomes a
gift back to the son.
So there's like this spiralthat is like ever deepening,
getting, it's getting bigger andbigger.
Thinking about about how theuniverse is ever-expanding.
(22:44):
The Trinity is also, in a way,ever-expanding and the Holy
Spirit is that love that isgoing between the Father and the
Son, that love that'sever-expanding.
(23:05):
Now let's look at the maritalrelationship and particularly
the act of intercourse and whatis biologically happening.
Because what theology of thebody allows us to do is we can
look at the biological and wecan help that can allow us to
inform the theological.
We can see how the biologicdesign that God has created in
our bodies helps us understandthese crazy deep concepts that
God has created in our bodieshelps us understand these crazy
(23:27):
deep concepts.
So what's happening in sex isthat the man initiates a gift of
himself.
He literally gives a part ofhimself to the woman and yeah,
I'm speaking really literallyhere and it might feel a little
uncomfortable, but I'm talkingabout firm he is physically
giving a part of himself to thewoman and the woman is
physically accepting like fullyaccepting that gift into herself
(23:52):
.
There's no deeper way that shecould accept the gift than by
actually bringing it intoherself.
And so, by accepting that gift,she is then becoming a gift of
herself back to her husband, andthen we see this same spiral
happening, is that then thehusband is receiving this gift
(24:15):
of his wife, this gift of herwhole person, and he's further
giving himself, his whole person, over to her and sometimes,
sometimes, that love turns intoa third person, right?
So we have this image of theTrinity happening every time
that a husband and wife cometogether, and I think it's also
(24:36):
important to kind of note that,like, even if a third person
doesn't result from that, thereis still a fruitful aspect to
every encounter, every sexualencounter that a husband and
wife have, if they're comingtogether freely, totally and
faithfully and giving themselvesfully to each other.
There is a fruitful aspect inthat the relationship is
(24:58):
deepening and that we'reactually opening ourselves up to
God even more, and that we'reactually opening ourselves up to
God even more.
So that's your quick version ofone tiny aspect of how Theology
of the Body can help usunderstand our marriages, and
then how our marriages can helpus understand God.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yes, oh my gosh.
I was like on the edge of myseat like I've never heard it
explained that before.
Very dynamic, I was like that'sso beautiful but, it really is.
It's so beautiful.
So I love your energy and Ilove the way that you explained
it, because I think that that issomething that, even if
(25:40):
somebody is not really sureabout theology of the body, but
has heard about it, I think thatthat is just a beautiful
imagery and an explanation thatcould really resonate with so
many of us.
So thank you for that.
So, with that in mind and youkind of touched on it earlier
(26:01):
when we were talking about someof the obstacles to intimacy
what are some misconceptionsabout sexual intimacy in
Catholic relationships?
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Oh my gosh, the biggest one that I hear is a
misinterpretation of Ephesians 5, and it's the duty issue and
it's like it is the.
It's the duty of the wife togive sex to her husband and it's
just like there's so muchmissing in that interpretation.
(26:36):
Um, when we reduce the sexualrelationship to one of duty
because in in that case, then itjust becomes a checkbox, it
becomes something I have to do,it becomes it goes on the list
with the laundry and cleaningthe bathroom, and that is
probably the worst thing thatcould happen.
If sex goes on your likechecklist things I need to get
(27:00):
done this week list, itshouldn't.
Sex should be and I said thisbefore and this is just like
it's one of my lines that I sayall the time like it should be
the fruit of a deeply intimaterelationship.
And if you are solely havingsex out of this, just like
feeling of this is just what I'msupposed to do as a wife, then
(27:23):
we're missing out on theintimate aspect of sex.
It's like it's not an intimateact at that point.
It's simply just.
You're just trying to like takecare of something.
It's like you're trying to takecare of a dog and that's.
You know.
We're just, we're reallymissing something there.
(27:43):
Yeah, something, yeah, anothercommon one that I see and this
is going to bring us back alittle bit more into the alcohol
space is and this isn'tnecessarily with Catholic
marriages, but is that justcommon misconception of I can't
get relaxed enough for sexwithout that glass of wine.
(28:06):
I just need that glass of wineand I've been there.
That is part of my story.
I truly, truly believe thatthere was no way I could have
sex without having a glass ofwine or having a cocktail, and
it got to a point where that wasactually true, where I couldn't
(28:28):
, I could not relax enough, anda lot of that was due to issues
on a much deeper level that Ihad with sex and intimacy.
It actually had nothing to dowith relaxing enough.
That's what we tell ourselves.
We tell ourselves it's aboutrelaxing, but it's not.
(28:48):
It's not about relaxing.
What it ultimately is about ishealing our understanding and
relationship with sex and thenalso again building that
foundation of deep intimacy,because I had kind of again,
this is just part of my storyand I think a lot of women might
relate to it is that I had beenin sort of this understanding
(29:12):
of, okay, sex is just somethingthat my husband wants.
I don't really care about it.
I don't get any pleasure fromit.
I don't really care that muchabout it.
I could take it or leave it,but it's something he wants and
I'm supposed to give it to himbecause I'm married to him and
that's what a good Catholic wifedoes.
But I'm never interested in it,and so the only way I can get
there is buy a glass of wine,and so I have to have a glass of
(29:33):
wine in order to be a good wife.
And now suddenly we have justwrapped it up in our head into
something that is so not, andwe're missing out on love and
intimacy in that relationshipand really we're just kind of
again, we're checking the bar.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that part of it
and I have to tell you like yourenergy went from explaining
theology of the body and thewhole mystical union of the
trinity and you were like onfire.
It just like your energy was so.
And then when you were talkingabout duty, you're like, and
some women think it's so, youknow, and it really and that's
(30:15):
how it is.
If you think of it that way,then that's your energy as you
approach it.
But if you think about it inlike this is something so
beautiful and fruitful and youknow God created it for a reason
, then your energy is up andyou're more excited about that
(30:38):
and it isn't just then checkinga box.
So I love, I love that.
I was just like, I just noticedyour energy, just like.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
No, but it makes perfect sense.
Is that right, like, if wedon't have a full and true and
good understanding of like howamazing sex is like and I'm not,
I don't even talking about thepleasure aspect, I'm talking
about like just how amazing,like, theologically, sex is that
(31:08):
like?
There's just so much moreexcitement to coming into that,
and that's a lot of what I do incoaching with women and in some
of the courses that I have inthe podcast that I host is just
is building that understandingof like what we're coming into
and how good and beautiful it is.
Because, yeah, if it's notsomething that you enjoy, if
(31:32):
it's something that's painful,um, or it's just something that,
like, you just do to kind ofplacate your husband, yeah,
you're not going to come at itwith very much excitement
because that sounds terrible,like I don't want to have that
sex, like not at all, and Idon't want you to have that
either.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Which is why you do what you do.
I try to reach.
There's so much more.
There's so much more.
But I also appreciated the partof your story that illustrated,
like when you rely on alcoholas the crutch, or when you rely
on alcohol or lean into it atfirst to kind of help with that.
(32:17):
You know having sex with yourhusband or being open, but then
how it became, you know, a habitor something that you had to
have.
I think that so many womenlistening can just relate to
that.
So how did you get out of that?
Like how were you able to breakfree from the need for that
crutch and be able to reallyenjoy?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
being with your husband in all aspects.
Yeah, you know, it took.
It took a long time and it tooka lot of learning and as well
as like integrating thatlearning into myself.
One of the things I talk abouta lot is like we can learn.
We can learn a lot abouttheology and how great it you
know the marital act is and andwe can have that all up in our
(33:08):
head, but until we actuallyintegrate it into our life it's
gonna change anything.
Just knowing that sex likeimages, the trinity, that that's
great to know, but if you'renot integrating that actually
into the act itself and likeopening the act up to God and
the Holy Spirit and saying, makeup this act what you will, then
(33:32):
you know we brought me intoeven being willing to have sex
at the beginning Because I wasso deeply terrified of sex and
(33:56):
kind of honestly grossed out byit, just because of my
upbringing and a lot of shamethat had been built around sex
and intimacy, and so the onlyway that I could get past that
shame and that discomfort was, Ibelieved, through alcohol, as I
(34:19):
slowly learned more about thechurch teaching on contraception
.
I slowly learned more about thechurch teaching on contraception
and then that led me intobetter understanding, like just
the church's teaching on sex asa whole.
I really started digging intotheology of the body and
starting to understand some ofthose concepts as well.
(34:39):
When I started getting excitedabout really what sex was beyond
just this like thing I have todo, that's when alcohol just
dropped naturally for me out ofthe picture because it was like
it became something that Iwasn't forcing myself to do
anymore.
(34:59):
I was actually really excitedto do and excited to come
together with my spouse and openup to in that way.
And I think that for some womenlike that might be the journey,
that that might be theexperiential journey is that
alcohol just kind of naturallydrops out, like it did for
myself.
But I think in other cases itdoes need to be a cognitive
(35:24):
decision to say no, I'm notgoing to allow this to be a
crutch anymore.
I'm not because I don't need itto be, but I do recognize that
I'm going to have to work hard,I'm going to have to learn, I'm
going to have to pray, I'm goingto have to open up to my
husband, I'm going to have to bebrave.
I think that's something wedon't talk a lot about when it
(35:46):
comes to sex is that there'sbravery needed to open up and be
that vulnerable.
And if we've been relying onalcohol, then there's like even
more bravery that needs to bepresent, because how we act with
alcohol is so can be sodifferent than how we act
(36:06):
without alcohol and we might beembarrassed about things we've
said or done with alcohol withour husband that actually are
completely and totallyappropriate.
One example might be likewearing lingerie and giving a
little strip tease.
That is completely and totallyappropriate for a husband and
(36:28):
wife to do.
But if you're in a space whereyou're not quite comfortable
with your body in that way,you're not quite comfortable
with sex in that way and maybethere's still some fear of
vulnerability with your husband,if you're not in that place but
you've done something like thatunder the influence of a little
(36:49):
bit of alcohol or maybe a lotof alcohol, there might be a lot
of embarrassment and shame andyou might kind of feel like, oh
my gosh, do I always have to actlike that?
I'm not even comfortable doingthat and I just want to tell
anybody who's like feeling thatfear with like oh my gosh, if I
take alcohol away from the sexsituation like I don't know.
(37:12):
I don't know what I'm going todo.
I just want you to take a deepbreath.
Your husband loves you, heloves you and it's okay to tell
him you're embarrassed by whatyou did one time under the
influence of alcohol or a lot oftimes.
Right, it's okay to tell him.
(37:33):
And it's also okay to be likehey, I'm like I know you really
like it when I I'll go on thesame example of laundry.
I know you really like it whenI wear laundry.
But like I'm not there yet, I'mnot comfortable with that,
(37:53):
that's okay.
Like you're allowed to takeyour sexual relationship back a
couple of steps if alcohol kindof pushed it more forward than
where you're ready for, and thatis totally okay.
I just want to give youpermission for that.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Oh, I love that.
Thank you so much for that,because I think that that is
something that is so.
It is something that happensright, and it is something that,
where it can be, you know, youdon't you.
In marriage, you think, oh, youshouldn't be embarrassed by any
anything and everything shouldbe fine.
(38:25):
But there are times when it'slike you know, we did that, I
didn't really enjoy it, itdidn't really make me feel
comfortable.
Can we maybe not do that?
Or I'm not ready for that now.
So I am so glad that you liketouched on that and really
explained that and just gavewomen permission to be like you
know, just opening up andtalking about it, and that
(38:49):
actually is a great example ofintimacy, right, that you can
have that conversation.
And I'm sure a lot of womendon't necessarily think that
their husband wants to see thatreal part of them, but he does.
He wants the real you, he wantsthe authentic you.
(39:12):
He doesn't want the lubricatedor he doesn't.
You don't have to always be onfor him Like.
He wants you fully and you asyou, as you are, because that's
who he fell in love with you asyou as you are, because that's
who he fell in love with exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
No, that's so important, it's it.
It's something, too, that we aswomen we have to like tell
ourselves that probably everysingle day, like my husband
actually means it when he tellsme I love, that, he loves me.
And my husband actually meansit when he tells me that my body
is beautiful, even though Idon't think it is.
And you know, it's like, yeah,we have to constantly remind
ourselves of that.
But, guy, like ladies, yourhusband's not lying to you.
(39:53):
He loves you and he really does.
And once he wants you and youmight not, you know, might not
do strip teases in lingerie, andthat's okay.
Or you right now might not dothat, but maybe you, in five
(40:14):
years, stir a lot of work andhealing and loving between you
and your husband.
Maybe then you does stripteases in lingerie, but you
don't need to let that besomething that stops you from
just opening up to your husband.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, I think that that.
So I just there was a recentFather Mike Schmitz did a homily
on divine mercy and in it hetalked about our greatest wound
being a wound of distrust, right, and so that can be caused from
different types of trauma orexperiences that we've had, and
so I think that, as you'respeaking, it just reminded me of
(40:56):
you know, we have most of us,probably all of us have some
level of distrust, and so we'rethinking, oh, he's not happy
with me, he's not happy with me,he's not satisfied with me,
he's not, you know, but theseare just attack, right Of like
division.
So these thoughts are justattacks from the evil one that
(41:19):
are trying to divide you and,like you said, your husband
loves you and just believe thatand trust that and that is why
you're together, just believethat and trust that and that is
why you're together.
And the more intimacy that youhave, the easier it is to really
believe that, and then I thinkit just becomes a lot easier
just to be intimate and open.
(41:40):
So another thing that comes upis what if and I mean this
happens a lot so what if thereare different levels of comfort
with intimacy or desire?
So how do couples kind ofnavigate that?
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Sure, yeah, when it comes to differing levels of
comfort with things, a coupleneeds to default to the person
who's least comfortable.
That is out of respect and lovefor the person who is still
like a little further back onthe journey, right?
So there's a wonderful bookwritten by Dr Gregory Popcak.
(42:23):
It's called Holy Sex.
It's a great, you know, justentry point into learning about
the goodness and the beauty ofsex.
And he gives a really goodexample in the book about.
He's talking about differentpositions and the wife is not
comfortable with that position.
She doesn't like it.
(42:45):
There's just she has lots offeelings about it and just
different reasons why shedoesn't like it.
But the husband really wants totry it and would really like to
do it.
And in conversation they havethis conversation and she's able
to open up to the husband andexplain this is why it feels
(43:06):
uncomfortable to me, this is whyI don't want it.
You know all of this kind ofthing.
And then the husband's able toopen up and say this is why I'm
interested in doing thisposition, this is why I want to.
And they come to terms with thefact that, like, she's still
very much uncomfortable with it,even though he has some really
beautiful good reason forwanting to try this position,
(43:27):
and so they don't.
But then, after a period oftime I don't remember if it was
several months or maybe evenyears but the wife had really
kept this in mind and hadbrought it to prayer and had
recognized that her husband didhave some really valid reason
for wanting to try this positionthat he wasn't comfortable with
.
Her husband did have somereally valid reason for wanting
(43:48):
to try this position that shewasn't comfortable with, and
eventually she did actually cometo a point where she was like
you know what, let's try it.
But they defaulted to her levelof comfort and let her take the
lead on this because it wassomething she was not
comfortable with yet.
And that has to happen becausethe act of sex is so vulnerable,
(44:09):
so vulnerable that we can't letcoercion into uncomfortable
acts or uncomfortable positionsor things like that.
We can't let that enter intothis vulnerable act, for else
the person who is uncomfortableis going to shut down even more,
(44:32):
and then it's like you're goingto be taking more steps back on
the journey, and so for wiveswho are in the position of being
more uncomfortable aboutcertain things, it actually
takes some assertion.
You need to be very clear andsay look, I'm not comfortable
with that.
(44:53):
I am totally willing to dothese things.
Maybe it's I'm not comfortablewith kissing your neck, I don't
know, but I'm willing to kissyou on the lips and I'm willing
to kiss you on the cheek andother places.
I'm just not comfortable withkissing your neck right now.
(45:14):
Right, and that has to be OK.
The husband in that situationcannot coerce or require her to
kiss his neck.
He has to be all right withthat, his neck.
He has to be all right withthat.
And so you know I think this issomething that the more
uncomfortable person will oftenbe kind of afraid to say
(45:35):
something or will just kind of,you know, just be on the more
meat side about the situationbecause of the discomfort.
And so this is again wherebravery is necessary that if
you're trying to get morecomfortable with sex, then at
this point you cannot do thingsyou're uncomfortable with,
because it's only going to makeyou more uncomfortable with sex
(45:57):
as a whole.
And so it's important that youcommunicate the things that you
are comfortable with.
You know, maybe, again, maybeit's like positions, you know,
maybe you're you're comfortablewith missionary, um, but but you
don't like the idea of aposition that's more upright.
Or or you you like man on top,but you're not comfortable with
(46:17):
women on top.
You know something like that.
I think there's a lot ofdiscomfort with certain
positions that happen.
You've got to say it out loudand then that has to be
respected.
And if it's not respected, thenyou know you as the person who
are who's uncomfortable withthat.
You have to stop the act atthat point and you say, look,
(46:39):
this has to be respected.
This is a boundary I have putdown and this is very important
to me, that we respect this.
So either we need to stop rightnow or we need to take a step
back, and I need you to respectmy position on my feelings about
this position.
Or you know this, or whatever.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
That's so good and that gives people that is women
language and like a way toexpress that, because I think
that that comes up a lot withinthe act.
And so just knowing that it'sokay to stop and say like I'm
not comfortable with this, andknowing that sometimes, if we
push through, you know that'shorrible, it's not helpful,
(47:23):
pushing through is not gonnahelp.
Yeah, it's just gonna deepenthat you know anxiety and that
the desire not to do the act,not to have sex with your
husband, because you're havingto look forward to it, because
and you're going to be like, oh,do we have to do that thing
that I didn't like, that youknow.
So I think, like you weresaying, be bold, brave, speak up
(47:46):
and let him know, because,honestly, he doesn't know if you
don't tell him.
Right, it's like he won't knowif you don't tell him and he'll
just think it's fine.
So being able to speak up is agift to yourself, but it's also
a gift to him, so that hedoesn't.
You know, oftentimes they don'twant to do something that's
going to make you superuncomfortable because they love
(48:10):
you and this is a loving act andso by telling him that then
you're just going to enjoyhaving sex more and and that
strengthens the intimacy betweenyou because you've been open
and honest, and then it justhelps your relationship in
general.
I think absolutely, yeah.
(48:31):
So just before I tell everybody, how do you tell everybody
where they can find you and anyresources you have?
Is there anything else that youwant my listeners to know?
Or do you have anything else tooffer couples as their um, like
(48:52):
any other tips as couples aretrying to maybe just even have
those nightly moments togetherafter the kids go to bed without
alcohol?
Any tips and tricks that youhave in that regard, all any
tips and tricks that you have inthat regard?
Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
You know.
One tip and this is just goingto sound so canned, but honestly
it's tried and true and itworks is just switching the
liquid, you know, switching itto tea or switching it to a
mocktail or some special fundrink.
That can be helpful as well,right, if you just have
something that is really setaside for that time with your
(49:31):
spouse as a special so-and-so orsomething that you have.
Another thing is you know thattime that you're spending
together, that is, it's a date,whether or not it like it's not
a date outright, but that youare dating your spouse when
you're just sitting chattingabout your day and whatever.
And so I think something thatwe need to reframe is what a
(49:57):
date is and when a date canhappen.
And a lot of times it's like,oh yeah, well, the only time I
see my husband is after the kidsgo to bed and then we can just
sit and chat for a little bit.
Well, there's a lot ofunderrated ways to date your
spouse.
One way is what if, instead ofstaying up a little bit later,
(50:17):
you just got up a half hourearlier and you had a date at 5
am Again?
with tea or coffee Not withalcohol at that time, right.
And then now you've put alcoholcompletely off the table here
in this opportunity to chat andget to know each other.
If you have younger kids, Ithink one of the best places to
(50:42):
date yourself is on the parkbench, because you take your
kids to the park, they go andplay with the other kids that
are there, and you're justsitting on the park bench
watching your kids and chitchatting about your day.
Going for a walk can be helpful, right, something that's
distracting the kid, you know,just going.
(51:04):
I think another one that can bereally helpful again this is
with younger kids, because Ihave younger kids, right is
going to the zoo or somethingsimilar, because they're, like,
very interested in the animalsand like seeing what's there, or
like a children's museum too.
That can be a great place tohave that connection time with
(51:25):
yourself, because, yeah, okay,animals, animals are cool.
But, like, you're probably notquite as interested as your
six-year-old in the giraffes,right, and so your six-year-old
can go be excited about thegiraffes and watch them eat
leaves for 10 minutes while youand your husband sit and chat on
the bench that's sitting rightthere, because zoos have a lot
of benches um they do and Ithink it's for reason.
(51:47):
I think it's for husband andwife to just know each other
more.
But just like reframing thatopportunity to connect that that
is not the only opportunity toconnect.
That time after your kids go tobed it might be the most
convenient, I will give you that.
But we're not looking forconvenience here.
(52:08):
We're looking forprioritization of something
that's really important anddating your spouse, getting to
know them, living in that.
You know that intimacy, thatdeep intimacy.
That is a priority and we needto make it a priority.
And so you know something thatthe reason I suggested getting
up early is that's actuallysomething that my husband and I
(52:30):
started doing about a year ago.
It took us a long time to getinto a groove of it, but we get
up early.
We get up about an hour beforethe kids get up and we just sit
and chat for about a half hourand then we go get ready for the
day and I have a cup of tea andwe just figure out what's going
(52:50):
on with our day.
We talk about the prior dayBecause a lot of times at night
I am way too tired to actuallyeven open up and connect or I'm
too stressed out from the day,and I think that's where alcohol
comes in.
A lot too, it've got, we've hada very high stress day and we
feel that need to bringourselves down and relax, and so
(53:13):
if you're connecting firstthing in the morning, you
haven't had the stress of theday yet and hopefully you had a
good night's sleep and soactually you're feeling the
least stressed that you're gonnabe all long and so you don't
need that helper in relaxation.
Another thing that I wanted tomention about alcohol and this
(53:34):
can be particularly helpful forthose of you who, just you know,
having a little bit of alcoholis fine in your life and it's
not something that you want tocompletely give up.
But you're just recognizing Ineed to take a step back from it
, and maybe after thisconversation you're like wow, I
really need to take a step backfrom it.
(53:54):
In my intimate life especiallyIs when you have a glass of wine
.
There really is, there is thatrelaxation effect in it and it
brings you into a very open andvulnerable state, and I think it
can actually be very helpfulfor us to take note what that
really feels like, what being inthat open and vulnerable space
(54:18):
really feels like, and maybeeven jotting down some feelings
that you had after having thatglass of wine and really like
you, you know, and just being ashonest as you can be, like, oh
I think my husband looks sexierafter I have a glass of right
right, and and just jotting downor or just cognitively thinking
(54:39):
what those feelings are, howyour body is feeling, because
your body changes as well.
Um, how much much looser areyour muscles feeling, or are you
more comfortable moving yourbody in different ways?
Because when we can notice whatalcohol really does to us, we
can actually bring ourselves tothat point without the help of
(55:01):
alcohol and we can just work ongetting that comfortability with
our body.
That's a really common one isthat alcohol will just, it'll
help us be more comfortable.
You see people right at a clubor a bar.
They're more comfortable likedancing and moving their body a
lot of ways because the alcoholis getting them in that
comfortability.
And so maybe that means doingsome body work, doing some just
(55:26):
really aware stretching andmovement of your body in like a
prayerful way that you're justlike getting to know your own
body, getting to know your hipsand your legs and your arms and
your breasts more, so thatyou're more comfortable moving
them in front of your husbandand without alcohol, right?
(55:49):
So you know, I think that wecan learn, we can actually learn
from the use of a glass of wine, and we can learn some ways
that we can be more comfortablein our own body and as well as
like be more comfortable justaround our husband and the way
that we speak and the way thatwe just interact and things like
(56:10):
that.
Speaker 1 (56:13):
Well, those are some really awesome tips, Ellen.
Thank you so much.
So much good stuff there.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (56:22):
I'm happy to share.
Yeah, so we have to wrap upjust for the sake of time, but
please tell my listeners wherethey can find you and any
resources that you have thatcould benefit them.
I mean, you've provided so muchamazing information on the
podcast today and I'm just sograteful for you, but let them
(56:43):
know where they can find outeven more, because I know
they're going to want to.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Absolutely so.
The first place to find me iswherever you listen to podcasts.
You're already listening to apodcast, so you can find me on
the current app that you areusing.
My podcast is charting towardintimacy.
It's toward, not towards.
Don't put an S on there,because sometimes search
(57:06):
functions don't find it.
Hindsight is 2020, naming mypodcast, that's for sure, but
Charting Toward Intimacy that'sthe name of my podcast.
Vines in Full Bloom is mycompany name, so Vines in Full
Bloom.
You can find the courses and thecoaching that I do.
I'm on Instagram at chartingtoward intimacy as well.
(57:29):
I have a course specifically onorgasms for Catholic women, for
women who rarely or never haveexperienced sexual pleasure, and
it's all about really like morethan just the physical aspect
the physical, mental,psychological and spiritual
aspects of sexual pleasure andthe goodness of it and why it's
(57:51):
worth looking for.
And I also have a brand newcourse brand spanking new, if
you're listening to this podcastin real time called the
Catholic Sex Course for Women,and it's really just a dive into
where we, as women, need tolike, feel when it comes to sex
(58:13):
and intimacy and understandinglike really what sex is, why we
need it, and then learning somemindset shifts that we might
need to make from a history of adifficult, you know,
relationship with sex whetherthat was purity of a difficult
you know relationship with sex,whether that was purity culture
side, or you know more that opensex culture, and then you know
(58:36):
how to integrate that into ourrelationship with our husband,
communication, things like that.
So you can find all of that onmy website,
mindswithpulledbloomcom, withthat on my website
findsofthefullbloomcom.
Speaker 1 (58:49):
Thank you so much, and I will leave links to some
of that in my show notes so thatit'll make it easy for people
to find you and find youramazing podcast.
Ellen, thank you so much forthe work that you are doing.
First and foremost, I know thatit's going to help so many
Catholic women and just havingthis conversation I know that
it's going to help so manyCatholic women and just having
this conversation I know, hasbeen very enlightening for me as
(59:12):
well, and I know it will be forothers.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Thanks for having me.
Well, that does it for thisepisode of the Catholic Sobriety
Podcast.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I would invite you to share
it with a friend who might alsoget value from it as well, and
make sure you subscribe so youdon't miss a thing.
(59:34):
I am the Catholic SobrietyCoach, and if you would like to
learn how to work with me orlearn more about the coaching
that I offer, visit my website,thecatholicsobrietycoachcom.
Follow me on Instagram at theCatholic Sobriety Coach.
I look forward to speaking toyou next time and remember I am
(01:00:00):
here for you.
I am praying for you.
You are not alone.
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