March 21, 2023 • 28 mins
Today we're talking with Dr. Tracy Donohue. Join our guest as they reflect on their professional experiences and how they have prepared them to work with teacher education students who are learning to teach through play. As you listen, we invite you to also reflect on the background you bring to education, how you value play and what you would be willing to investigate to challenge yourself in these areas.
Introduction Music: David Biedenbender
Find us on social media:
Instagram: cmichcese
Facebook: cmich_cese
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tracy Donohue (00:00):
We have this big conversation over and over
(00:02):
again. It is not a dichotomylearn versus play that actually
learning is play.
Ashley O'Neil (00:09):
Okay, now we're recording
Julie Cunningham (00:14):
so welcome to Teach Wonder!
Ashley O'Neil (00:20):
Yes, Welcome to teach wonder podcast hosted by
Ashley O'Neill and JulieCunningham.
My freshman year of college Ihad two roommates. Roommate one
had goals of going pre med. Soshe was taking zero writing
courses her first semester, buthad Calc, bio and chemistry all
(00:43):
at the same time. Roommate twoand I both wanted to be
teachers. So we had a broaderarray of classes, including
history and communications andSpanish. And we were both also
in this introductory teacher. Ofcourse, the bulk of our homework
actually came from that teachercourse we'd been pretty familiar
with school, and had a handle onour other classes we'd never
(01:03):
taught before and this teacherclass had us in first grade
classrooms the second week doing30 minute lessons on social
studies. So every week we werepreparing new lessons for them.
I'll never forget the dichotomyof homework in our tiny dorm
room. So roommate one headerstacks of calc notes and
flashcards for bio and abulletin board of equations.
(01:24):
Roommate two, and they wereusing markers on the back of
cereal boxes to make houses forlesson as neighborhoods. You'd
often walk into a room and seeroommate two and I practicing
our lessons with each other Ohroommate one borrowed our
pencils to color codeflashcards. But you'd also often
see roommate to an eye on thecouch. Using those color coded
flashcards to quiz roommate oneeye she colored streetlamps, and
(01:45):
stop signs to go with our cerealbox houses. Now College
definitely became more rigorousfor me in that traditional
sense. I'm no stranger toflashcards and late night study
sessions myself and roommate onedid take an art class that
resulted in her creating a wiresquirrel that was so intense it
affected our TV signal. But thatfirst semester of freshman year,
that scene of studying for biolesson planning for first grade
(02:08):
of my roommate coloring whiledoing flashcard review, it is
one of my strongest memories ofthat year. And it rather
perfectly sets the stage for ourconversation this week. We're
about to jump into thisinterview, and spoiler it's
about learning and play. Thisconversation talks about the
tenants of play, why it's vitalfor all people, regardless of
our age or grade. We talkedabout how students at CMU are
(02:32):
learning to incorporate play asfuture educators. And we hear so
many thoughtful and helpfulexamples of play in the
classroom. But before we dothat, we're starting this
interview by having our guestsshare her background. And we're
doing that because itillustrates a point that matters
in this conversation. Ourbackground and history create a
lens for us. And new experiencesand opportunities can sharpen,
(02:54):
adjust and filter that lens. Asyou listen to the experiences
and opportunities that build ourguests professional career.
Think about your own and how itmay shape the way you are
currently viewing your classroomand this interview. Here's
Julie.
Tracy Donohue (03:09):
So Tracy, if you would please introduce yourself
and tell us a little bit aboutyour background as a faculty
member here.
Okay, so my name is TracyDonahue and I this is my second
year as an assistant professorhere at Central Michigan
University. And I think it wouldbehoove myself to get tell you
like pre central if that's okay.
So I started I as a third gradeteacher in Raleigh, North
(03:33):
Carolina. I've only ever taughtin title one magnet schools. So
I started at the visual andperforming arts, school teaching
third grade, and we got to teachelectives. So I taught the basic
core curriculum and then fourdays a week, our children,
actually k five, but myelectives were three, five, they
would switch classes, they wouldsign up for electives and
(03:54):
change. And so I taught a sewingelective. I taught a history
elective, I taught a shaping upelective, all kinds of different
things. It was super fun,because you also got to know
kids around the school, outsideof your classroom. And so in
that process with a good friendof mine, who we grew up in
teaching together, we got ourmasters and reading education, I
(04:14):
thought I wanted to be a smallgroup literacy teacher. And we
got our masters at NC Statetogether. And during that time,
because funding changes everyyear with Title One, I became a
part time math coach and parttime literacy intervention
teacher. So I was going fromteaching small group,
(04:34):
kindergarten literacy to fifthgrade classroom math coaching,
and every year it kind ofshifted, and I got to play
within my work in terms of coteaching. Everyone is on a
continuum of where they'll beaccepting of that. I worked at
Powell at that one school forabout 10 years. Ironically,
we're talking about play today.
(04:55):
I've been looking back into myold stomping grounds to share
with the press sentation withstudent group here on campus,
and now they are not a visualand performing arts school.
They're building ingenuitythrough play school. And they're
the only kid elementary schoolin the country, I think with
that theme. So I reached out tothem because the assistant
principal is a good a formerfriend of mine. And so they have
(05:18):
a play integration specialistswith her PhD that works on
stuff. So I was like, put, Ijust wanted to reconnect with
them. So I'm hoping to talk withher. But I started there and
worked in some capacity ininstructional coaching after my
years in third grade, andrealized I really liked working
with adult learners. And then Imoved to a different magnet
(05:40):
school within Raleigh to for oneyear, and then we moved out of
state, but it was connected withNC State, and it was an
engineering magnet school. Andthey had allocated it was a low,
I've only worked at lowperforming schools, but it they
allocated a quarter of theirRace to the Top funds to the
school and clean slate startedall kinds of new things. I was
the intervention coordinator forthat school. So I worked with
(06:02):
the teachers, K five, and then Iwas also a literacy coach with
that. So during that time, Ialso had the opportunity to
teach at a community collegedevelopmental reading, I also
thought I like to dabble soundslike let me try this. Again,
working with adult learnersdoing a lot of similar things we
do in third grade readingclassrooms with adults, I would
(06:22):
make these adults who Some areolder than me act out work new
vocabulary words. And I learnedit feels silly, but it's an
element of play in that as well.
We moved for family reasons toIowa for a couple of years. And
I taught a community collegeclass on developmental reading
there. And then I startedlooking and kind of wanting to
spread my wings a little bit.
(06:44):
And I got a job as a literacyconsultant for the Iowa reading
research center. And so there Icaught I did a lot of things.
One big project is working withfamilies in literacy and trying
to I blogged about literacypractices with my children, you
know, bird watching, readingabout birds, all kinds of
things. I also met a lot ofreally smart people around the
(07:05):
state who had their doctoratedegrees. And I was like, I don't
know if I could do that. Andthen I couldn't put I can't pile
up any more student debt. Andthey they all were like, well,
you should look intofellowships, and you should look
into this. So then two yearslater, we moved here, I had
three kids, a tiny newborn. AndI was I worked for them doing
(07:25):
their social media for a whileand I was like, What am I going
to do with my life? I don't knowany. I have no teaching network
here in Michigan. And so Iapplied to some programs, and I
got into Michigan State. Andthankfully, it was the best
place for me to be because Itaught one early literacy class.
And then I was a fieldinstructor. So I got to go in
schools and support studentteachers. And you know, watched
(07:49):
one of them put worms in kidshands and get my hands dirty,
which felt good to be back inschools. I spent five years at
Michigan State, I got to teachus a lot of different courses in
literacy. And then I realized,oh, no, I really like teaching
early math. So I went to thatside. And so I'm I'm kind of
dabble in a lot of subject areasas a as a elementary, early
(08:14):
childhood teacher does anyway.
And so I'm honored to be here.
Now this position came availablewith the new banding, there's a
pre K through third grade band.
And so this job came availableand my advisor was like this is
like made for you. And so I Ifeel so honored to be here
because one of the things in thejob description was talking
about using developmentallyappropriate practices,
(08:35):
especially with a focus on pre Kthrough third grade across
content areas. And so I was ableto hone in on teaching pre
service teachers those skills atMichigan State and then here we
are. And so with that they wereasked me what I wanted to teach.
And luckily enough I have togive a shout out to Joellen Lu
Seder, Dr. Lu Seder, creat hadjust created this learning the
(08:58):
content areas through play. Ibelieve she had taught it online
once but nobody had taught itface to face first. And so I
they had me less classes. Thiswas one that appealed to me. And
so I have been lucky enough andbecause of like shuffling
around, I've actually been theone to teach it the only person
to teach it. This is my thirdtime on campus. She has taught
(09:21):
the online version. And so Ihave built upon her work and I
think of her often I like toshare when I have pictures of my
students work with her becauseit brings me joy. And I hope it
brings her joy as well. So
Ashley O'Neil (09:38):
So all of these diverse experiences give Tracy
insight into the students thatshe impacts at all levels, the
Early Childhood elementarystudents, her undergrad pre
service teachers, both as thestudents they are now and as the
teachers that they're going tobe. Our conversation pivoted
here and we're going to get intothe work that Tracy does with
students. And it's focusedheavily on Les, but Julian, I
(10:01):
know that that word has a ton ofpersonal contextual meaning for
everyone, your own childhoodmovies, commercials, toys, your
own kids, potentially, they allmix together in your brain to
create this definition of play.
So I asked Tracy to think abouthow she defines play to set the
tone for our conversation.
Tracy Donohue (10:21):
I so it's funny, because I'm sitting, that
training that I had to push thisback for is positive psychology.
And we were talking about flowtheory today. And so that's
where I think of play. For me, Itell my students I play when I
drive, I play looking at exits,I'm just fiddling around,
tinkering, in my mind. So playcan be tinkering, it can be I'm
(10:44):
fully on flow mode and focusedin something, it can be as much
or as little at different times.
So it, it's hard for me todefine exactly what it is. And
it doesn't always, it sometimesis hard. And I think sometimes
we think of play is just playingwith dolls, like you said, are
plays playing and dramatic play.
(11:05):
And I have to dress up and Ihave to look silly to play. But
actually, some of us are justsitting, I'm going how many more
exits do I have, okay, if I goup one speed, you know, one mile
per hour how many either and I'mjust sitting there problem
solving in my mind that hasplayed to me. So I'm not sure if
that's a textbook definition.
Ashley O'Neil (11:22):
What we love about this definition is that
it's not tidy, and textbook. Andin this instance, that's really
helpful. You see, there's nomention of specific tip
materials or age here in thisconversation. And the definition
that Dr. Donahue gave us isremoved from a specific tool or
program or toy. In fact, thatwhole playing with the speed and
(11:43):
location to make a game out ofthe commute home, that is all in
your head, really. So what Tracyis talking about here is an
approach to an activity insteadof a specific magic activity
itself. I remember my new parentbrain looking for the perfect
example of play on Instagram.
And that was often brought tothese pretty open ended toys or
these activity ideas. Andsometimes they worked for my
(12:05):
child and sometimes not, becausethrough lots of trial and error
with my own kid, I realized thatyou can have the same materials
and same steps for an activity.
But doing that activity in andof itself does not guarantee
that it's play. For example, thedays when I'm singing and
auditioning for Broadway while Idust, my house does something
(12:25):
different in my brain than whenI'm aggressively wiping the
bookshelves before a guestarrives. Both are cleaning, both
use the same tools, but they arenot both play. So now let's talk
a little bit more about thattextbook definition. With as a
mindset or an approach, Tracy isgoing to share the five
characteristics of play that sheuses in her class. And she'll
(12:45):
share them with examples. Solet's list them on their own.
First, we have joy, meaningfullearning, iteration, social
interaction, and activeengagement. Back to Tracy,
Tracy Donohue (12:58):
I'm digging deeper in these what I call
characteristics of play. And Ilook at them as my students I
say, Okay, pull out a literacyactivity, find one online. And
let's look at where are thesecharacteristics of play? And if
they're not there, or they can'tcome from this? How could you
modify that task? Because weknow they're all going to go on
Google and find stuff I do allthe time. And but how can I
(13:21):
tinker with this play with thisto make it have more playful
opportunity? So there's joy. SoI think there's a lot of number
of things that can bring us joythat might not look like what we
consider plays being a childbased thing, meaningful
learning? Am I learningsomething from this? I mean, if
we think about mountain biking,we've talked about mountain
biking before that is play,you're playing in the woods,
(13:43):
you're like, Okay, I can't godown this rock formation today.
But next time, I might try thisone rock, and then the next
time, you know, and then thatbrings me to iteration. So and
I'm sure in the makerspace,you'll see a lot of iterative
processes. But let me try itthis time, see what happens. Let
me try it this time and see whathappens. And then social
interaction. I mean, we playwith our friends, even if we're
(14:05):
just sitting on a couch talking,and then active engagement, am I
actively engaged. And there's awhole continuum I just had in
this positive psychologytraining about what that can
look like, too. So yeah, playlooks different for everybody.
And it also makes me think of mystudents, sometimes, especially
at the beginning of thesemester, I'll take in a bunch
(14:26):
of tubs I think you've seen mewith my cafeteria card. I'll
take in tubs Magna tiles, oranimals or just anything because
I have access to all these greatthings. And I'll say, Okay,
we're gonna have unstructuredplay. I'm gonna turn music on
and y'all just play. And itdepends on the students. Last
semester, I had people that goyes. And they just dive right in
(14:47):
this semester. I have a biggerclass, and maybe that leads them
to be more reticent. But I havesome that just look at me, and
they're like, can she just geton with it? Like we're adults
here, you know, and I can seethat and then so then we talk
Talk about that. And does itfeel weird to sit here and play?
Okay, let me get the tiles out.
And let me just pretend to play.
And some of them still don'tkind of get past that even. But
(15:08):
it's nice to watch them kind ofgrow and realize, like, oh, I
should be playing in my life,too. And that was going to be
sort of my follow up questionis, when you set up scenarios in
your classrooms, students, doyou look for your scenarios that
you offer them to have thosefive components, the joy and the
iteration and the engagement andthe missing two of them. But
(15:29):
those 5am When they offeropportunities to young children,
do you expect them to cooperate,or five, or some of the five or
or I sounds like open playwithout necessarily calling out
those five areas is fine aswell.
So I have a hard- So this is athere's like a balance to it.
(15:52):
Because once you start saying, Ineed you to incorporate all five
of that my Type A students wantto go check, check check, and
what sounds like meaningfullearning might not quite be
meaningful learning. So I, I doask them to reflect on them for
sure. And I'm evolving with thisframework. It's I've adapted
some pieces here and there withthat, but what I do is in their
(16:15):
assignments, they have theirfirst assignment, the only one
that we've turned in so far isthis game transfiguration that
Joellen designed, and it is sucha beautiful opportunity, they
take a game, it could be beerpong, it could be monopoly, and
they adapt it to bedevelopmentally appropriate and
kid friendly for a child thatthey're working with. So I
(16:37):
should show I have so manybeautiful photos, and I can show
you another time. But Show andTell is easier when I can just
show you what I have. Theycreated. One of my students did
this. She's working with a thirdgrader, this Kingdom Hearts
monopoly, she painted thisboard. So even that was played
in itself. And then this is moresimple, but she created a
(17:00):
multiplication golf game. Andthis one I love if you've played
What do you mean, she createdshe took photos and different
things. But the question waswhen you get to be the line
leader for the day, but then sheplayed that with kids and
realize they don't even get thatlike this the sarcasm and stuff.
So so then we reflect on thatgetting to know you Jenga she
(17:22):
painted and and so they do this,and then they implement it, and
then they reflect on that. Andthat is kind of before we really
get into a lot of content. Sothey're really I'm really just
looking to see can they look atwhat is and and I don't like
putting developmental things ina box. So we look at like
generally, would this work for athree year old, but all three
(17:45):
year olds are different,especially some kids in the CLL
are going to I watched onelittle boy Count 14. And then
she goes what would one more andhe goes 50. And I wouldn't
expect if I don't know if he'sforeign yet to be able to do
that. But you know, they arepretty sophisticated counters.
And so then they do four major,I don't want to say major
(18:07):
foreign learning activities. AndI think from being in the
makerspace y'all have inspiredme to not quite make them so
discreet in terms of literacy,math, science, social studies.
So while they do these four,they have to design a learning
activity. And so my firstsemester I did that, they
created this, they implementedit, they reflected the typical
(18:29):
teacher assignment. I havechanged this, modified it a
little bit because I want themto develop fun learning
opportunities. But I also wantthem to see that that can happen
in any moment, like we weresaying, in thick conversations
is what we call it or openconversations or extended
however you want to do it. So wedo a lot of practice of I've
(18:51):
been doing fish bowls, and sothey'll be playing magnet tiles
and I'll say okay, for myoutsiders, what skill Do you
want me to focus on in here? Andthen I go in and say, Okay, we
were doing rhyming, okay, I seean orange tile. Can you tell me
something that rhymes withorange? And they always look at
me, I'm like, it doesn't have tobe a real word. And we're just
(19:14):
implementing whatever literacyskill they choose. And we talk
about how that can be that isjust as meaningful as this
activity that I planned. And alot of times those ones that I
plan fail or not, or the kidgoes, No, I want to do it this
way. And so you're off. So Idon't I want them to learn some
flexibility and fluidity. And sothey do one of those for each.
(19:37):
And then when when they reflectthey have to think of those
characteristics of play. Andthen also, especially in math, I
have attributes of high qualitymath tasks, and these are things
I want to be looking for becausemy early childhood people they
love some patterning. They loveit. They love some colors. They
love some shapes. They don'tlove doing number activity. So I
(20:00):
am making them do numberactivities. Because what I see,
as I look at just people I'veworked with, in general is
number sense, opportunities aremissing, kids are gonna get
patterning, they're gonna getall those things. But the number
is huge. So I just kind of, likewe do shapes, we do those
things, but I say no patterns.
And anyway, so high qualitytasks. And I asked them to
(20:22):
reflect like how, or think aboutthat when they're planning and
then science, I have them thinkabout the characteristics of
play, but our big mantra isnotice and wonder. And then you
inspire me to think about storythroughout. And so when we were
here last semester, is create astory for what you built, create
a story for this. So we'vereally incorporating literacy
(20:45):
throughout. And then my take onsocial studies, because their
take is Social Studies isgovernment social studies is
communities. So we talk about, Ithink of social studies as
listening to other people andlearning from them. So come in
your community and just otherpeople's stories.
Ashley O'Neil (21:06):
They have a lot of thick and actionable
suggestions and ideas from Dr.
Donahue in the form of thesekinds of stories and examples
from her class, which is great.
She discusses thinking aboutplay in different content areas
across different contexts, andthe considerations that go into
all of these things. Now, she'sgoing to talk about another key
consideration. Our content
Tracy Donohue (21:27):
is heavily focused on equitable and
inclusive play as well. So Ishould say that all of our work
in this semester is grounded inis this accessible? I'm working
with Mason, I know Mason can dothis activity. But I want to
think about if I'm in aclassroom with a bunch of three
year olds, would all three yearolds be able to do this? And
what modifications might I haveto make? And we did an activity,
(21:48):
we do an activity, I think thevery first day where they we
build with spaghetti, OldSpaghetti and old marshmallows.
But you know, it occurred to meor maybe from my reading, I
don't know that actually,children with food insecurities
that can be harmful to somechildren. So it's not necessary.
Like I said, my dad would laughat me and be like, Okay, you
can't play with food. No, it'snot that it's knowing the people
(22:10):
I'm working with. And knowing,okay, this is harmful for this
one kid. We're going to usetoothpicks and playdough this
time, you know, stufflike that. And that's fine for
all kids done, right? Like,okay, it has to be right, and
marshmallows.
And if it's harmful for one kid,it's not worth it,
I won't do it. Right. I justwant to say I appreciate how
much you're modeling for yourstudents what you want them to
(22:32):
do when they work with children,because I think that doesn't
always happen when we'retraining new teachers, and so
not as a criticism of anyoneelse on this program. But I
just, I just think that's reallynice when you say, and then we
do fish bowls, and we talk aboutus and ask them to reflect on I
think that that's so importantfor them to see, I think often
(22:54):
in education has been myexperience that we don't make
our thought processes, explicitto people that are learning to
teach. And in doing so we makesome of it look easier or
simpler than it is. Becausewe've learned how to do it
already. And probably that'strue of any skill, right? Like
(23:15):
lots of people make mountainbiking look super easy. And it's
probably true of any skill. ButI just think that's really nice
that all the modeling and theexplicit decision making that
you're doing withthem, thank you. And I'm lucky I
get to teach something fun, too.
So I, my class is fun. But alsothe topic is fun. And I, I tried
(23:37):
to in this, another class Iteach is it's such a loaded
title. It's called BestPractices of early childhood
settings. I tried to model asmuch as I can in a bear
classroom out there, what it'slike to experience. So we have
morning meeting every time wehave class. And it might seem
silly after a while, we haveread aloud every time because I
(23:57):
tell him if I drop that thanthat. What does that say to you?
Ashley O'Neil (24:01):
So you mentioned you just touched on earlier
about making play inclusive andaccessible. So can you talk a
little bit about whatconversations you have with
students? I'm particularlythinking of like a narrow,
diverse population. So that's mylike angle for this. But maybe
maybe that's not what you'retalking about. But how do you
have conversations with themabout honoring the type of play
(24:22):
that they might do? So thatyou've got your bubble of
generally and then a guy orother bubble? How do you have
conversations about the type ofplay that they do and honoring
that and working? I hear a lotof you saying like developing
flexibility with for the adultstudents, right like for your
future teachers, developing thatflexibility. So how do you have
that conversation with themabout following suit children's
Tracy Donohue (24:44):
needs, so we do have some specific conversations
to maybe underrepresentedpopulations especially I teach
in a very not diverse racially,population here, but we talk
about inclusivity Inaccessibility for all, but I
don't know who they're going tointeract with. So it's more of a
(25:05):
big ideas that I'm thinking of.
And the point I try to stress isyou have to know who you're
working with first, you wouldn'tjust like the food insecurity
thing. And it's getting to knowyour students and what their
needs are getting to know thechildren and their families,
learning about the childrenlearning what works at home. So
I would, we haven't had specificconversations to nourish
(25:30):
neurodivergent populations,however, I hope that by me
stressing the importance ofunderstanding their needs and
what they need, that they areable to translate that to really
anybody.
Ashley O'Neil (25:44):
Sure. One of the next questions that we asked
Tracy was about the differencesshe noticed in pre service
teachers, and their mindsetgoing into this class, based on
the grade levels that theythought they were going to
teach. So for example, thenstudents who anticipated
teaching preschool, kindergartenin first grade approach things a
little bit differently thanstudents who planned on teaching
(26:06):
an older grade level,
Tracy Donohue (26:07):
we have this big conversation over and over
again, it is not a dichotomy,learn versus play, that actually
learning is play. And so if youthink about Minecraft, older
kids like Minecraft, it'sbuilding, it's got playful
opportunities. And so helpingthem kind of open up what we
said about like that definitionof play, I think is important. I
(26:31):
personally am on a mission forpeople to also see early
childhood as through thirdgrade, because a lot of times we
hear early childhood, oh, that'splay, and we think of birth
through five. And the definitionis up to eight years old, which
is that through third grade, inmy opinion, and then I would
argue adults like to playbecause I see it in my class all
(26:53):
the time. I think high school. Ithink my middle schoolers that
they're middle school, my ownchildren play more than they did
in fifth grade. Just you know, Ithink you have to be silly to
appeal to them, I'm guessing.
And they I think all of us needan element of shake off the
seriousness and have some joyand some silliness.
Ashley O'Neil (27:12):
Some joy and some silliness. That's the ask this
week. Remember those fivetenants, joy, meaningful
learning, iteration, socialinteraction, and active
engagement? Let's focus on tohow are you going to approach or
infuse a task with joy andactive engagement this week, it
could be your Monday morningcommute your phonics lesson or
(27:33):
that will last 30 minutes beforethe end of the day with your
students. We'll be back with therest of our interview with Tracy
in two weeks, but we'd love tohear what you've been up to
always feel free to email us atcs@cms.edu ce se at C M I C
h.edu. In two weeks stay tunedto hear more examples and some
(27:54):
explicit design choices that setTracy students up for meaningful
and iterative interactions. Thishas been teach wonder
We have this big conversation over and over
(00:02):
again. It is not a dichotomylearn versus play that actually
learning is play.
Ashley O'Neil (00:09):
Okay, now we're recording
Julie Cunningham (00:14):
so welcome to Teach Wonder!
Ashley O'Neil (00:20):
Yes, Welcome to teach wonder podcast hosted by
Ashley O'Neill and JulieCunningham.
My freshman year of college Ihad two roommates. Roommate one
had goals of going pre med. Soshe was taking zero writing
courses her first semester, buthad Calc, bio and chemistry all
(00:43):
at the same time. Roommate twoand I both wanted to be
teachers. So we had a broaderarray of classes, including
history and communications andSpanish. And we were both also
in this introductory teacher. Ofcourse, the bulk of our homework
actually came from that teachercourse we'd been pretty familiar
with school, and had a handle onour other classes we'd never
(01:03):
taught before and this teacherclass had us in first grade
classrooms the second week doing30 minute lessons on social
studies. So every week we werepreparing new lessons for them.
I'll never forget the dichotomyof homework in our tiny dorm
room. So roommate one headerstacks of calc notes and
flashcards for bio and abulletin board of equations.
(01:24):
Roommate two, and they wereusing markers on the back of
cereal boxes to make houses forlesson as neighborhoods. You'd
often walk into a room and seeroommate two and I practicing
our lessons with each other Ohroommate one borrowed our
pencils to color codeflashcards. But you'd also often
see roommate to an eye on thecouch. Using those color coded
flashcards to quiz roommate oneeye she colored streetlamps, and
(01:45):
stop signs to go with our cerealbox houses. Now College
definitely became more rigorousfor me in that traditional
sense. I'm no stranger toflashcards and late night study
sessions myself and roommate onedid take an art class that
resulted in her creating a wiresquirrel that was so intense it
affected our TV signal. But thatfirst semester of freshman year,
that scene of studying for biolesson planning for first grade
(02:08):
of my roommate coloring whiledoing flashcard review, it is
one of my strongest memories ofthat year. And it rather
perfectly sets the stage for ourconversation this week. We're
about to jump into thisinterview, and spoiler it's
about learning and play. Thisconversation talks about the
tenants of play, why it's vitalfor all people, regardless of
our age or grade. We talkedabout how students at CMU are
(02:32):
learning to incorporate play asfuture educators. And we hear so
many thoughtful and helpfulexamples of play in the
classroom. But before we dothat, we're starting this
interview by having our guestsshare her background. And we're
doing that because itillustrates a point that matters
in this conversation. Ourbackground and history create a
lens for us. And new experiencesand opportunities can sharpen,
(02:54):
adjust and filter that lens. Asyou listen to the experiences
and opportunities that build ourguests professional career.
Think about your own and how itmay shape the way you are
currently viewing your classroomand this interview. Here's
Julie.
Tracy Donohue (03:09):
So Tracy, if you would please introduce yourself
and tell us a little bit aboutyour background as a faculty
member here.
Okay, so my name is TracyDonahue and I this is my second
year as an assistant professorhere at Central Michigan
University. And I think it wouldbehoove myself to get tell you
like pre central if that's okay.
So I started I as a third gradeteacher in Raleigh, North
(03:33):
Carolina. I've only ever taughtin title one magnet schools. So
I started at the visual andperforming arts, school teaching
third grade, and we got to teachelectives. So I taught the basic
core curriculum and then fourdays a week, our children,
actually k five, but myelectives were three, five, they
would switch classes, they wouldsign up for electives and
(03:54):
change. And so I taught a sewingelective. I taught a history
elective, I taught a shaping upelective, all kinds of different
things. It was super fun,because you also got to know
kids around the school, outsideof your classroom. And so in
that process with a good friendof mine, who we grew up in
teaching together, we got ourmasters and reading education, I
(04:14):
thought I wanted to be a smallgroup literacy teacher. And we
got our masters at NC Statetogether. And during that time,
because funding changes everyyear with Title One, I became a
part time math coach and parttime literacy intervention
teacher. So I was going fromteaching small group,
(04:34):
kindergarten literacy to fifthgrade classroom math coaching,
and every year it kind ofshifted, and I got to play
within my work in terms of coteaching. Everyone is on a
continuum of where they'll beaccepting of that. I worked at
Powell at that one school forabout 10 years. Ironically,
we're talking about play today.
(04:55):
I've been looking back into myold stomping grounds to share
with the press sentation withstudent group here on campus,
and now they are not a visualand performing arts school.
They're building ingenuitythrough play school. And they're
the only kid elementary schoolin the country, I think with
that theme. So I reached out tothem because the assistant
principal is a good a formerfriend of mine. And so they have
(05:18):
a play integration specialistswith her PhD that works on
stuff. So I was like, put, Ijust wanted to reconnect with
them. So I'm hoping to talk withher. But I started there and
worked in some capacity ininstructional coaching after my
years in third grade, andrealized I really liked working
with adult learners. And then Imoved to a different magnet
(05:40):
school within Raleigh to for oneyear, and then we moved out of
state, but it was connected withNC State, and it was an
engineering magnet school. Andthey had allocated it was a low,
I've only worked at lowperforming schools, but it they
allocated a quarter of theirRace to the Top funds to the
school and clean slate startedall kinds of new things. I was
the intervention coordinator forthat school. So I worked with
(06:02):
the teachers, K five, and then Iwas also a literacy coach with
that. So during that time, Ialso had the opportunity to
teach at a community collegedevelopmental reading, I also
thought I like to dabble soundslike let me try this. Again,
working with adult learnersdoing a lot of similar things we
do in third grade readingclassrooms with adults, I would
(06:22):
make these adults who Some areolder than me act out work new
vocabulary words. And I learnedit feels silly, but it's an
element of play in that as well.
We moved for family reasons toIowa for a couple of years. And
I taught a community collegeclass on developmental reading
there. And then I startedlooking and kind of wanting to
spread my wings a little bit.
(06:44):
And I got a job as a literacyconsultant for the Iowa reading
research center. And so there Icaught I did a lot of things.
One big project is working withfamilies in literacy and trying
to I blogged about literacypractices with my children, you
know, bird watching, readingabout birds, all kinds of
things. I also met a lot ofreally smart people around the
(07:05):
state who had their doctoratedegrees. And I was like, I don't
know if I could do that. Andthen I couldn't put I can't pile
up any more student debt. Andthey they all were like, well,
you should look intofellowships, and you should look
into this. So then two yearslater, we moved here, I had
three kids, a tiny newborn. AndI was I worked for them doing
(07:25):
their social media for a whileand I was like, What am I going
to do with my life? I don't knowany. I have no teaching network
here in Michigan. And so Iapplied to some programs, and I
got into Michigan State. Andthankfully, it was the best
place for me to be because Itaught one early literacy class.
And then I was a fieldinstructor. So I got to go in
schools and support studentteachers. And you know, watched
(07:49):
one of them put worms in kidshands and get my hands dirty,
which felt good to be back inschools. I spent five years at
Michigan State, I got to teachus a lot of different courses in
literacy. And then I realized,oh, no, I really like teaching
early math. So I went to thatside. And so I'm I'm kind of
dabble in a lot of subject areasas a as a elementary, early
(08:14):
childhood teacher does anyway.
And so I'm honored to be here.
Now this position came availablewith the new banding, there's a
pre K through third grade band.
And so this job came availableand my advisor was like this is
like made for you. And so I Ifeel so honored to be here
because one of the things in thejob description was talking
about using developmentallyappropriate practices,
(08:35):
especially with a focus on pre Kthrough third grade across
content areas. And so I was ableto hone in on teaching pre
service teachers those skills atMichigan State and then here we
are. And so with that they wereasked me what I wanted to teach.
And luckily enough I have togive a shout out to Joellen Lu
Seder, Dr. Lu Seder, creat hadjust created this learning the
(08:58):
content areas through play. Ibelieve she had taught it online
once but nobody had taught itface to face first. And so I
they had me less classes. Thiswas one that appealed to me. And
so I have been lucky enough andbecause of like shuffling
around, I've actually been theone to teach it the only person
to teach it. This is my thirdtime on campus. She has taught
(09:21):
the online version. And so Ihave built upon her work and I
think of her often I like toshare when I have pictures of my
students work with her becauseit brings me joy. And I hope it
brings her joy as well. So
Ashley O'Neil (09:38):
So all of these diverse experiences give Tracy
insight into the students thatshe impacts at all levels, the
Early Childhood elementarystudents, her undergrad pre
service teachers, both as thestudents they are now and as the
teachers that they're going tobe. Our conversation pivoted
here and we're going to get intothe work that Tracy does with
students. And it's focusedheavily on Les, but Julian, I
(10:01):
know that that word has a ton ofpersonal contextual meaning for
everyone, your own childhoodmovies, commercials, toys, your
own kids, potentially, they allmix together in your brain to
create this definition of play.
So I asked Tracy to think abouthow she defines play to set the
tone for our conversation.
Tracy Donohue (10:21):
I so it's funny, because I'm sitting, that
training that I had to push thisback for is positive psychology.
And we were talking about flowtheory today. And so that's
where I think of play. For me, Itell my students I play when I
drive, I play looking at exits,I'm just fiddling around,
tinkering, in my mind. So playcan be tinkering, it can be I'm
(10:44):
fully on flow mode and focusedin something, it can be as much
or as little at different times.
So it, it's hard for me todefine exactly what it is. And
it doesn't always, it sometimesis hard. And I think sometimes
we think of play is just playingwith dolls, like you said, are
plays playing and dramatic play.
(11:05):
And I have to dress up and Ihave to look silly to play. But
actually, some of us are justsitting, I'm going how many more
exits do I have, okay, if I goup one speed, you know, one mile
per hour how many either and I'mjust sitting there problem
solving in my mind that hasplayed to me. So I'm not sure if
that's a textbook definition.
Ashley O'Neil (11:22):
What we love about this definition is that
it's not tidy, and textbook. Andin this instance, that's really
helpful. You see, there's nomention of specific tip
materials or age here in thisconversation. And the definition
that Dr. Donahue gave us isremoved from a specific tool or
program or toy. In fact, thatwhole playing with the speed and
(11:43):
location to make a game out ofthe commute home, that is all in
your head, really. So what Tracyis talking about here is an
approach to an activity insteadof a specific magic activity
itself. I remember my new parentbrain looking for the perfect
example of play on Instagram.
And that was often brought tothese pretty open ended toys or
these activity ideas. Andsometimes they worked for my
(12:05):
child and sometimes not, becausethrough lots of trial and error
with my own kid, I realized thatyou can have the same materials
and same steps for an activity.
But doing that activity in andof itself does not guarantee
that it's play. For example, thedays when I'm singing and
auditioning for Broadway while Idust, my house does something
(12:25):
different in my brain than whenI'm aggressively wiping the
bookshelves before a guestarrives. Both are cleaning, both
use the same tools, but they arenot both play. So now let's talk
a little bit more about thattextbook definition. With as a
mindset or an approach, Tracy isgoing to share the five
characteristics of play that sheuses in her class. And she'll
(12:45):
share them with examples. Solet's list them on their own.
First, we have joy, meaningfullearning, iteration, social
interaction, and activeengagement. Back to Tracy,
Tracy Donohue (12:58):
I'm digging deeper in these what I call
characteristics of play. And Ilook at them as my students I
say, Okay, pull out a literacyactivity, find one online. And
let's look at where are thesecharacteristics of play? And if
they're not there, or they can'tcome from this? How could you
modify that task? Because weknow they're all going to go on
Google and find stuff I do allthe time. And but how can I
(13:21):
tinker with this play with thisto make it have more playful
opportunity? So there's joy. SoI think there's a lot of number
of things that can bring us joythat might not look like what we
consider plays being a childbased thing, meaningful
learning? Am I learningsomething from this? I mean, if
we think about mountain biking,we've talked about mountain
biking before that is play,you're playing in the woods,
(13:43):
you're like, Okay, I can't godown this rock formation today.
But next time, I might try thisone rock, and then the next
time, you know, and then thatbrings me to iteration. So and
I'm sure in the makerspace,you'll see a lot of iterative
processes. But let me try itthis time, see what happens. Let
me try it this time and see whathappens. And then social
interaction. I mean, we playwith our friends, even if we're
(14:05):
just sitting on a couch talking,and then active engagement, am I
actively engaged. And there's awhole continuum I just had in
this positive psychologytraining about what that can
look like, too. So yeah, playlooks different for everybody.
And it also makes me think of mystudents, sometimes, especially
at the beginning of thesemester, I'll take in a bunch
(14:26):
of tubs I think you've seen mewith my cafeteria card. I'll
take in tubs Magna tiles, oranimals or just anything because
I have access to all these greatthings. And I'll say, Okay,
we're gonna have unstructuredplay. I'm gonna turn music on
and y'all just play. And itdepends on the students. Last
semester, I had people that goyes. And they just dive right in
(14:47):
this semester. I have a biggerclass, and maybe that leads them
to be more reticent. But I havesome that just look at me, and
they're like, can she just geton with it? Like we're adults
here, you know, and I can seethat and then so then we talk
Talk about that. And does itfeel weird to sit here and play?
Okay, let me get the tiles out.
And let me just pretend to play.
And some of them still don'tkind of get past that even. But
(15:08):
it's nice to watch them kind ofgrow and realize, like, oh, I
should be playing in my life,too. And that was going to be
sort of my follow up questionis, when you set up scenarios in
your classrooms, students, doyou look for your scenarios that
you offer them to have thosefive components, the joy and the
iteration and the engagement andthe missing two of them. But
(15:29):
those 5am When they offeropportunities to young children,
do you expect them to cooperate,or five, or some of the five or
or I sounds like open playwithout necessarily calling out
those five areas is fine aswell.
So I have a hard- So this is athere's like a balance to it.
(15:52):
Because once you start saying, Ineed you to incorporate all five
of that my Type A students wantto go check, check check, and
what sounds like meaningfullearning might not quite be
meaningful learning. So I, I doask them to reflect on them for
sure. And I'm evolving with thisframework. It's I've adapted
some pieces here and there withthat, but what I do is in their
(16:15):
assignments, they have theirfirst assignment, the only one
that we've turned in so far isthis game transfiguration that
Joellen designed, and it is sucha beautiful opportunity, they
take a game, it could be beerpong, it could be monopoly, and
they adapt it to bedevelopmentally appropriate and
kid friendly for a child thatthey're working with. So I
(16:37):
should show I have so manybeautiful photos, and I can show
you another time. But Show andTell is easier when I can just
show you what I have. Theycreated. One of my students did
this. She's working with a thirdgrader, this Kingdom Hearts
monopoly, she painted thisboard. So even that was played
in itself. And then this is moresimple, but she created a
(17:00):
multiplication golf game. Andthis one I love if you've played
What do you mean, she createdshe took photos and different
things. But the question waswhen you get to be the line
leader for the day, but then sheplayed that with kids and
realize they don't even get thatlike this the sarcasm and stuff.
So so then we reflect on thatgetting to know you Jenga she
(17:22):
painted and and so they do this,and then they implement it, and
then they reflect on that. Andthat is kind of before we really
get into a lot of content. Sothey're really I'm really just
looking to see can they look atwhat is and and I don't like
putting developmental things ina box. So we look at like
generally, would this work for athree year old, but all three
(17:45):
year olds are different,especially some kids in the CLL
are going to I watched onelittle boy Count 14. And then
she goes what would one more andhe goes 50. And I wouldn't
expect if I don't know if he'sforeign yet to be able to do
that. But you know, they arepretty sophisticated counters.
And so then they do four major,I don't want to say major
(18:07):
foreign learning activities. AndI think from being in the
makerspace y'all have inspiredme to not quite make them so
discreet in terms of literacy,math, science, social studies.
So while they do these four,they have to design a learning
activity. And so my firstsemester I did that, they
created this, they implementedit, they reflected the typical
(18:29):
teacher assignment. I havechanged this, modified it a
little bit because I want themto develop fun learning
opportunities. But I also wantthem to see that that can happen
in any moment, like we weresaying, in thick conversations
is what we call it or openconversations or extended
however you want to do it. So wedo a lot of practice of I've
(18:51):
been doing fish bowls, and sothey'll be playing magnet tiles
and I'll say okay, for myoutsiders, what skill Do you
want me to focus on in here? Andthen I go in and say, Okay, we
were doing rhyming, okay, I seean orange tile. Can you tell me
something that rhymes withorange? And they always look at
me, I'm like, it doesn't have tobe a real word. And we're just
(19:14):
implementing whatever literacyskill they choose. And we talk
about how that can be that isjust as meaningful as this
activity that I planned. And alot of times those ones that I
plan fail or not, or the kidgoes, No, I want to do it this
way. And so you're off. So Idon't I want them to learn some
flexibility and fluidity. And sothey do one of those for each.
(19:37):
And then when when they reflectthey have to think of those
characteristics of play. Andthen also, especially in math, I
have attributes of high qualitymath tasks, and these are things
I want to be looking for becausemy early childhood people they
love some patterning. They loveit. They love some colors. They
love some shapes. They don'tlove doing number activity. So I
(20:00):
am making them do numberactivities. Because what I see,
as I look at just people I'veworked with, in general is
number sense, opportunities aremissing, kids are gonna get
patterning, they're gonna getall those things. But the number
is huge. So I just kind of, likewe do shapes, we do those
things, but I say no patterns.
And anyway, so high qualitytasks. And I asked them to
(20:22):
reflect like how, or think aboutthat when they're planning and
then science, I have them thinkabout the characteristics of
play, but our big mantra isnotice and wonder. And then you
inspire me to think about storythroughout. And so when we were
here last semester, is create astory for what you built, create
a story for this. So we'vereally incorporating literacy
(20:45):
throughout. And then my take onsocial studies, because their
take is Social Studies isgovernment social studies is
communities. So we talk about, Ithink of social studies as
listening to other people andlearning from them. So come in
your community and just otherpeople's stories.
Ashley O'Neil (21:06):
They have a lot of thick and actionable
suggestions and ideas from Dr.
Donahue in the form of thesekinds of stories and examples
from her class, which is great.
She discusses thinking aboutplay in different content areas
across different contexts, andthe considerations that go into
all of these things. Now, she'sgoing to talk about another key
consideration. Our content
Tracy Donohue (21:27):
is heavily focused on equitable and
inclusive play as well. So Ishould say that all of our work
in this semester is grounded inis this accessible? I'm working
with Mason, I know Mason can dothis activity. But I want to
think about if I'm in aclassroom with a bunch of three
year olds, would all three yearolds be able to do this? And
what modifications might I haveto make? And we did an activity,
(21:48):
we do an activity, I think thevery first day where they we
build with spaghetti, OldSpaghetti and old marshmallows.
But you know, it occurred to meor maybe from my reading, I
don't know that actually,children with food insecurities
that can be harmful to somechildren. So it's not necessary.
Like I said, my dad would laughat me and be like, Okay, you
can't play with food. No, it'snot that it's knowing the people
(22:10):
I'm working with. And knowing,okay, this is harmful for this
one kid. We're going to usetoothpicks and playdough this
time, you know, stufflike that. And that's fine for
all kids done, right? Like,okay, it has to be right, and
marshmallows.
And if it's harmful for one kid,it's not worth it,
I won't do it. Right. I justwant to say I appreciate how
much you're modeling for yourstudents what you want them to
(22:32):
do when they work with children,because I think that doesn't
always happen when we'retraining new teachers, and so
not as a criticism of anyoneelse on this program. But I
just, I just think that's reallynice when you say, and then we
do fish bowls, and we talk aboutus and ask them to reflect on I
think that that's so importantfor them to see, I think often
(22:54):
in education has been myexperience that we don't make
our thought processes, explicitto people that are learning to
teach. And in doing so we makesome of it look easier or
simpler than it is. Becausewe've learned how to do it
already. And probably that'strue of any skill, right? Like
(23:15):
lots of people make mountainbiking look super easy. And it's
probably true of any skill. ButI just think that's really nice
that all the modeling and theexplicit decision making that
you're doing withthem, thank you. And I'm lucky I
get to teach something fun, too.
So I, my class is fun. But alsothe topic is fun. And I, I tried
(23:37):
to in this, another class Iteach is it's such a loaded
title. It's called BestPractices of early childhood
settings. I tried to model asmuch as I can in a bear
classroom out there, what it'slike to experience. So we have
morning meeting every time wehave class. And it might seem
silly after a while, we haveread aloud every time because I
(23:57):
tell him if I drop that thanthat. What does that say to you?
Ashley O'Neil (24:01):
So you mentioned you just touched on earlier
about making play inclusive andaccessible. So can you talk a
little bit about whatconversations you have with
students? I'm particularlythinking of like a narrow,
diverse population. So that's mylike angle for this. But maybe
maybe that's not what you'retalking about. But how do you
have conversations with themabout honoring the type of play
(24:22):
that they might do? So thatyou've got your bubble of
generally and then a guy orother bubble? How do you have
conversations about the type ofplay that they do and honoring
that and working? I hear a lotof you saying like developing
flexibility with for the adultstudents, right like for your
future teachers, developing thatflexibility. So how do you have
that conversation with themabout following suit children's
Tracy Donohue (24:44):
needs, so we do have some specific conversations
to maybe underrepresentedpopulations especially I teach
in a very not diverse racially,population here, but we talk
about inclusivity Inaccessibility for all, but I
don't know who they're going tointeract with. So it's more of a
(25:05):
big ideas that I'm thinking of.
And the point I try to stress isyou have to know who you're
working with first, you wouldn'tjust like the food insecurity
thing. And it's getting to knowyour students and what their
needs are getting to know thechildren and their families,
learning about the childrenlearning what works at home. So
I would, we haven't had specificconversations to nourish
(25:30):
neurodivergent populations,however, I hope that by me
stressing the importance ofunderstanding their needs and
what they need, that they areable to translate that to really
anybody.
Ashley O'Neil (25:44):
Sure. One of the next questions that we asked
Tracy was about the differencesshe noticed in pre service
teachers, and their mindsetgoing into this class, based on
the grade levels that theythought they were going to
teach. So for example, thenstudents who anticipated
teaching preschool, kindergartenin first grade approach things a
little bit differently thanstudents who planned on teaching
(26:06):
an older grade level,
Tracy Donohue (26:07):
we have this big conversation over and over
again, it is not a dichotomy,learn versus play, that actually
learning is play. And so if youthink about Minecraft, older
kids like Minecraft, it'sbuilding, it's got playful
opportunities. And so helpingthem kind of open up what we
said about like that definitionof play, I think is important. I
(26:31):
personally am on a mission forpeople to also see early
childhood as through thirdgrade, because a lot of times we
hear early childhood, oh, that'splay, and we think of birth
through five. And the definitionis up to eight years old, which
is that through third grade, inmy opinion, and then I would
argue adults like to playbecause I see it in my class all
(26:53):
the time. I think high school. Ithink my middle schoolers that
they're middle school, my ownchildren play more than they did
in fifth grade. Just you know, Ithink you have to be silly to
appeal to them, I'm guessing.
And they I think all of us needan element of shake off the
seriousness and have some joyand some silliness.
Ashley O'Neil (27:12):
Some joy and some silliness. That's the ask this
week. Remember those fivetenants, joy, meaningful
learning, iteration, socialinteraction, and active
engagement? Let's focus on tohow are you going to approach or
infuse a task with joy andactive engagement this week, it
could be your Monday morningcommute your phonics lesson or
(27:33):
that will last 30 minutes beforethe end of the day with your
students. We'll be back with therest of our interview with Tracy
in two weeks, but we'd love tohear what you've been up to
always feel free to email us atcs@cms.edu ce se at C M I C
h.edu. In two weeks stay tunedto hear more examples and some
(27:54):
explicit design choices that setTracy students up for meaningful
and iterative interactions. Thishas been teach wonder
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.