February 21, 2023 • 39 mins
We talked with Instructrional Coach Megan Nix. This conversation includes insights into project-based learning, how we think about students and their voice and choice, and the experiences that change us as teachers. Megan's answers are full of reflection and insight; they are an expression of how much she values students and giving them meaningful and authentic learning experiences.
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Episode Transcript
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Introduction (00:01):
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to Teach
Wonder.
Unknown (00:12):
Yes, Welcome to teach wonder
Introduction (00:15):
A podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neal and Julie
Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:22):
Do you look back on your first year teacher self
with kindness, or cringe, ormaybe a mix of both. I finished
my undergrad at CMU in 2010. AndI left college ready to
transform the educational worldhate. Much of my first years of
teaching are a total blur ofsomatic units and small group
(00:43):
planning. And feeling like I wasadding things to my to do list
at a faster rate than I waschecking them off. But it was
also full of so much joy. If Icould go back and talk to my
first year teacher self, I wouldtell her to slow down, I'd
recommend less coffee, I'drecommend more grace and I would
recommend fewer colorcoordinated book bins. But
(01:04):
seriously, something I reallyenjoyed about getting older is
getting the chance to reflect onthe ways that I've changed
professionally and personally.
We often send her a podcastaround growth and around change
and this episode is nodifferent. But it resonates in a
particular way for me, becausewe're interviewing a former
college classmate and co workerof mine.
Julie Cunningham (01:26):
On today's podcast, you'll hear our
interview with Meghan nicks,Meghan has worked in education
since 2010. Our interview withMegan focuses on project based
learning, student engagement,and the significant ways in
which Megan has changed sincebeginning her career. And one
last note, we give youpermission.
Ashley O'Neil (01:50):
Okay, Megan, welcome to the podcast. Can you
start by introducing yourself?
Megan Nix (01:55):
Sure. I am officially an instructional coach and PBL
consultant at Renaissance publicschool academy.
Ashley O'Neil (02:06):
Okay, so I am going to ask that you start
telling us a little bit aboutyour teaching journey if that's
okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Megan Nix (02:14):
Um, it I have been officially I suppose in
education for 12 years now. I,you know, went to college at CMU
and pursued a degree inelementary ed and special
education with an EIcertification student taught at
(02:36):
Renaissance where I'm at rightnow and stayed. And so in that
12 years, I Gosh, I don't knowit's quite the tail. I started
out teaching first grade,actually, with Ashley as my
first teaching partner. And thenwe, a couple of years in the
school decided to adopt a multiage approach. So did first and
(02:59):
second grade and kind of helpedwith getting that figured out at
the time. And then switched tothird and fourth grade with the
same kind of thought, I guess,work looking at how multi age
learning might look at that agelevel and spent a couple of
years there and then kept movingand taught that didn't sixth
(03:21):
grade for three years before Imoved out of the classroom and
into an instructional coachingrole. And so that's kind of
where I am right now. So acrossa lot and now my primary focus
is project based learning for myschool, as well as in struggled
(03:43):
for fifth through eighth gradesand of course, in the world of
education that looks completelydifferent from year to year. So
right now I am supporting ourteachers K in my building with
pretty much anything andeverything curriculum related
PBL math, literacy, newresources, all of the things so
Ashley O'Neil (04:04):
perfect. Yeah, I we talk to each other for just
one year. I can't remember if itwas one or if it was two.
Megan Nix (04:09):
No, I'm pretty sure.
I think it was two. Yep. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (04:14):
Yeah, those those years like blur together just a
little bit because I think wewere both so early in our
careers that everything felt newall the time. And both. So Megan
and I have this similar or wehad this similar personality
where like, we were going toreinvent all the wheels. Being a
first year teacher wasn't trickyenough. So we were just gonna,
like go really had to likereinventing the curriculum and
(04:37):
everything. So I feel like eachyear felt a little bit like a
new year because we were justdoing a lot of new things every
time
Megan Nix (04:43):
for sure. And I wish that I could say that that has
like changed but if I'm beingcompletely honest, I don't feel
like that has really changed andI don't know if it's just me.
And like you said like alwaysreinventing things or if it's
just that every year bringssomething new as like, I think
something new in me as well asnew with kids and new with my
(05:05):
role. And so I don't know. Yeah,I think about those early years,
and it does all kind of blurtogether. Because I think
exactly what you said though,like every, every single year
has just brought something newand it all kind of blends
sometimes.
Ashley O'Neil (05:18):
Can you this was not a question. So I'm already
breaking rules. But I am alittle bit curious about how you
think about, could you talk alittle bit about how you and
your school think about PBL?
Because some people are superfamiliar, some people are not.
And then some people havedifferent definitions.
Julie Cunningham (05:34):
That was my follow up question.
Megan Nix (05:38):
You're gonna have to be careful with that one,
though. Because once you get mestarted, I might not stop. So
write me and if you need to. Butwe we think about project based
learning as a instructionaltechnique or strategy, I suppose
for helping kids engage with allof the learning and things they
(05:59):
need to do in school in the mostauthentic way possible. So when
I say project based learning, Ipicture, a backwards design
process that looks at what kidsneed to have mastered in, you
know, three weeks or six weeksfrom now. And then working from
there and thinking about whatmight be some experiences we can
(06:20):
help provide them and someopportunities for them to ask
questions and dig into thingsand kind of drive learning for
the next few weeks that will endus in some sort of place, or
that will have some sort ofauthentic purpose. So thinking
about what would be somethingthat would people would really
do with this knowledge? And howcan we guide students towards
(06:42):
working with that? And so yeah,so that's where it comes in. So
the learning happens in orderfor them to be successful with
whatever that end goal might be.
Julie Cunningham (06:51):
Okay, can I ask a follow up question? We do
this all the time. Usually, it'snot the same follow up question,
though. That sounds fabulous.
Everything you said soundsfabulous. And And why wouldn't
we want kids to be authenticlearners. But sometimes the way
it plays out in a traditional K12 school setting can be a
little bit of a struggle fordepending on plan, right? What
(07:14):
parameters are in place tosupport that. So if you can just
give our listeners just asnapshot of the kind of things
that you think you'vespecifically had to support for
classroom teachers to be able todo that. So I don't know if you
have like an example. Or if youcan think about when you think
(07:36):
about your instructionalcoaching, like where do most
supports come in? Where wouldpeople look remote, the most
supports when they think aboutproject based learning
Megan Nix (07:46):
right now. And I want to caveat that by saying we are
in year five of a journey inthis direction, so my teachers
are not generally coming in toproject based learning like new
right now. Or if they are new,they're coming in, in a
structure that's already inplace to kind of help that be
successful. So I guess I want totalk about what is the focus
(08:09):
mostly now, compared to what itwas when we first started? If
that's okay,
Julie Cunningham (08:13):
yeah. And I think that's a great context.
And that, that's really tellingthat you've been at it for five
years. Like it's not a finishedproduct, right, even Oh, number.
So I think that's, I thinkthat's really important message
as well.
Unknown (08:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And that's where, you know, right
now, I think faces of theteachers that I support every
day, and some of them have beenon this journey, right along
with me, you know, in the lastfive years, and some of them are
either brand new to us, or brandnew to teaching and all of the
above so, but because we are ina place where, you know, our
(08:48):
curriculum, our pacing, ourpriority standards have all been
structured to lend themselvestowards using project based
learning. The thing that Isupport teachers with most right
now is just the it's theorganization of it, it's been
figuring out how to take thisreally big and really cool and
exciting idea and take all ofthat excitement and bring it
down to a place where you canlook at your lesson plans, and
(09:11):
okay, what does Monday need tolook like? And what this Tuesday
need to look like? Which I mean,and that's, I think that's the
reality of what teachers live inwhatever structure is like, yes,
it's all well and great, butwhat does it look like when I
have 25? Kids right in front ofme? And how do I be ready for
that? So that's where I spendmost of my time supporting is
meeting with teams and teachersand talking about like, our, you
(09:33):
know, a great example right nowour first graders are digging
into light and sound and one ofthe standards Well, the
standards all have to do withplaying with light and sound
learning about that, but one ofthem specifically has to do with
using light and sound tocommunicate in some way. And so
we you know, we have met severaltimes and thrown out all of the
ideas possible under the sun andall these really cool things
(09:55):
that would be so fun to let themjust give them these materials
and let them explore and seewhat They found in talking about
it and, and how you know, andgetting them to a point of like
they could communicate theirclassrooms right across the
hall. So all of these super funideas. And now I take all of
that and start to put it intothis like unit plan that helps
them think about how does theday to day happen. But how does
(10:17):
that day to day continue to worktowards that end goal and make
sure that it's left open enoughthat the kids have time and
space to ask questions, and wecan like change course partway
through them. And that likethat's probably the trickiest
piece, once you get going withit is knowing like I have full
permission to do this. I haveschedule that allows me to do
it. I know what standards arethe priority. But then in
(10:40):
reality, like, still figuringout exactly what that looks
like, each day is tricky. Sothat's where Focus comes from
right now like primarily,thinking about, you know, five
years ago, or even three yearsago, when we were first starting
with this and supportingteachers, it looks different
than that, because it still wasin the early phases of I think
(11:02):
focusing a lot on permission,per like, not where I'm at not
permission from like a schoolleadership place, but more of
permission like from ourselvesand what traditional structures
of schooling have taught us thatit's supposed to look like. So
supporting my teachers withbeing comfortable with thinking
outside of the box. And beingcomfortable with thinking like,
(11:24):
it would be amazing if we justthrew some pails and sand and a
ton of different size speakersat them and saw what happened.
And being comfortable with that.
Because it is such a change fromwhat it looked like when we were
in school, it's a change fromwhat it probably looks like up
till then it's a change frommaybe what it looks like in
classrooms that they'd worked inprior. And that's like that
was for sure, in those earlyyears, the majority of what we
(12:02):
were talking about and workingon and we've just come a long
way since then, as a school, butthat doesn't mean there aren't a
lot of people who are still, youknow, in those early phases of
thinking about how it just itcan look different. And there's
got to be permission there. So
Julie Cunningham (12:18):
I love that response. Thank you, Megan. And
I think that will really helpour listeners think even more
deeply about what you mean byPBL. Right. I think that that
was great. Thank you. Thanks forarticulating it just
Ashley O'Neil (12:35):
I, I want it we I'm sure it will come back to
PBL. And I think that's great.
But selfishly, I Brian again onmy podcast for very selfish
reasons in that she is myeducational twin. Because we
were born, I mean, like a dayapart. I think our birthdays are
very close to the same age. Wegraduated at the same time, we
ended up teaching at the sameschool. And we I would say that
(12:56):
we probably were quite similarback in time. And I would say
that I have changed quite a bitsince we were teaching together.
And I imagine that you have alsochanged quite a bit since our
first year teaching first gradetogether. And I want to hear a
little bit about how you lookback at your career. We talk a
lot in this space about beingreflective as teachers. And I
(13:18):
just think that exercise withyou would be really interesting.
So would you talk a little bitabout how you would describe
your self as a teacher backthen? And now? And a little bit
about maybe that shift?
Megan Nix (13:34):
Sure, absolutely. Um, it is, it is such a weird thing
to think about. And I do feellike every time I actually you
and I get together like I youknow, flooded with all these
memories of like, who we wenttoward what that looked like, it
was wonderful, wonderful. Don'tget me wrong. But yeah, I think
I often think like, if I couldreverse time, there's so many
(13:56):
things I would do differently.
And it's not even just 12 yearsago to the beginning. It's I
think about three years ago whenI was still in my own classroom
or you know. So that's it's sucha big question to answer. But I
think when I think about it,when I first started teaching, I
had this image of what it wasgoing to look like and what it
was going to be. And if I'mbeing totally honest, it was an
(14:17):
event driven by what I thoughtit meant to be teacher and how
cute and organized the classroomcould be and how sweet those
little faces were and how fun itwould be when we were all making
the same, you know, bat crap,are just some of those things
that come to mind that like, Ithink I was, you know, I was
eager and excited andpassionate. And I think I would
(14:40):
say all of those same thingsabout myself. But I think what I
thought that that looked like orwhat I was passionate about was
very different. I didn't have astrong understanding of what
different individuals kidsinside of my classroom were
like, you know, I would spend somuch time Setting up the space
and all of these perfect littlethings and desks and groups. And
(15:01):
I definitely, I valued lettingthe kid you know, asking them
questions as their time withthem. But I didn't have as
strong of an understanding as Ido now of the fact that like,
they come to you as theseindividual little human beings,
and not that you're turning theminto human beings, if that makes
any type of sense. And so thatthat, for me is a huge
(15:25):
difference. And then you add tothat, just all of the new
knowledge like just I mean, whenyou first come out of college,
you, you think you know how todo it, and then you go in, and
it's like, oh, my, but I alsothink that like we the world of
education itself has learned somuch since I, you know, first
entered the classroom just aboutteaching, reading, and about the
(15:48):
way kids learn, and all that haschanged. And this, you know, I
think it's probably prettyobvious at this point that I am
really passionate about schoollooking different than it did
when I was in school, when youknow, we were younger, I'm
really passionate about lookingfor non traditional ways to let
kids just be people and becurious and stay curious
(16:13):
forever. And I didn't have asmuch of a value or even an
understanding that it could lookdifferent at that time, like I
do now.
Ashley O'Neil (16:24):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense when
you were talking. I think if Icould like label an area of
change, for me, it was about theword management, we talked so
much in our classes about likeclassroom management, and
behavior management. And now Icringe at this idea of like
managing other people,especially managing young
(16:45):
people. And I, when you talkabout thinking about children,
as individuals who come fullyformed with their own history
and their own context, beingwilling to see all of your
students with all of theirlayers is complicated. And I
don't think I had the lifeexperience to fully like,
(17:05):
conceptualize that when I was23. And teaching first grade,
but I hear you, and you say likethat, that has become far more
paramount to me. And I think mybeginning career, I was really
into, like literacy andengagement and creating like
differentiated centers. And Ithought that by doing that, I
could like, just throw out allof this stuff that I knew is
(17:29):
good. And maybe it's still good,maybe. But it was very
disconnected from my actualaudience, because I didn't have
the practice of tuning into whothe learners were in my room and
actually being responsive totheir teaching or to like, what
they were trying to tell me withtheir bare like communication.
So that's, that's superinteresting. Do you have any
(17:50):
questions? Yeah, sorry.
Julie Cunningham (17:52):
Well, I think I have a question for both of
you. And so do you think that Imean, we say that to pre service
teachers, I feel like whenthey're in college courses,
right, like, I don't think thatthat message isn't? I don't
think the message is, is absentfrom college teaching courses,
but maybe the where, and I don'twant to get into how college
(18:15):
students are taught whetherthat's right or wrong. But what
I hear you saying is, even as ayoung teacher, you're not sure
if your experiences will allowyou to see that until you
experience teaching. And yet Iwonder like, how can we get
students to recognize thatsooner and preserve and insert
sorry, pre service teachers torecognize that sooner? So that,
(18:39):
right, so that were there forthe children? Earlier in our
careers? Like, do you thinkthere's a way that that can
happen that can be bettersupported?
Megan Nix (18:51):
I, I think it comes from a couple of things. One,
like, I spent some time, youknow, in classrooms like going
through there were required timeto spend with kids and observing
in rooms. And then there weresome, you know, where I had
chosen, obviously, I enjoyedworking with kids. So I had
chosen some jobs and experiencesthat led to that stuff. But I
(19:12):
don't think enough to havereally, like understood, like, I
think part of it is the moretime that you can spend
interacting with kids and likejust that's where that
realization that like they are,you know, they're just as much
human beings and people and havetheir own personalities and
experiences as the other adultsthat we walk our life with. And
(19:34):
I didn't, it's hard to explainbecause it's like, you know, I
knew that they were allindividuals, but just that
understanding grows, the moretime that you spend working with
kids. And then I also thinkit's, it's getting those
experiences that pre serviceteachers have outside of just
traditional places to like, Iwould love to see more
(19:58):
opportunities to work with kids.
I'm in after school programs andhave that count towards, you
know, schooling and summer campprograms and count towards
schooling and some of thatstuff. Because I that probably
lends to my own bias that like,education does should not look
like so traditional, and socookie cutter. But I think the
more than they can see andexperience kids and realize that
(20:19):
kids learn in those places, andhow they just step up
experiences in differentenvironments, would be really
beneficial. Because that's thenwhen you look at a classroom,
and you start to kind of turnyour head and think like, like,
why do these four walls look sodifferent than a summer camp
program or daycare or like wherethese kids are truly spending
life? You know, but you have tosee it a little bit more.
Ashley O'Neil (20:42):
I think that's a great response. And I, so I'm
teaching a couple of undergradsright now in a an online class,
which is presenting its ownunique challenges. But that's a
great like, your question iswell timed, because we're doing
this section all about, like,balance look like a literacy
classroom, and what your idealclassroom would look like, which
to me was like the most fun,let's dream up our great
classroom and their dreams wereall like, before I even read
(21:07):
their papers, there was a lot ofcrossover in their dreams,
because they very much soundedlike the classrooms that maybe I
had grown up in, maybe they hadgrown up in. And the other thing
I think is interesting is like,sometimes I think we as maybe
more practiced teachers, we cantake these really big concepts,
and we break them down into intolingo. But we aren't as great at
onboarding people into thenuances of what that language
(21:30):
is. And my example for this aswe were talking about sharing
control of a classroom, and thetrue nuanced, like conversation
was really about giving studentsmeaningful choice in a
classroom, which is important,which matters, right, like
giving them a sense of like,this is their space as much as
they adults, but then, when thatwas reflected back to some of my
students, their immediate go tois what that word control. And
(21:51):
so they thought only in terms ofhow like, children should be in
control of their bodies,teachers who would give children
security by being in control ofthe classroom. And so like, this
big nuanced concept, because Ihadn't spent enough time kind of
breaking down all the layers ofthat. They imparted a bunch of
their own context onto thatword. And I think sometimes we
(22:12):
do that in education, wherelike, we shorthand stuff, and we
don't realize that we do it. Andthen as we have these pre
service teachers coming in, theyjust get the short handed
version of all of thatcomplicated meaning. So that's
my, like, add on to that.
Megan Nix (22:27):
Yeah, that makes me think of the term like right
now, it's, you hear iteverywhere, like it's about
relationships, buildrelationships with your
students, like, you know,relationships have to come
first, which I totally agreewith. But I think that there are
differences in the nuances ofwhat that actually means and
what that word means insometimes, like, when a brand
new teacher walks into aclassroom, and you know, in
(22:49):
there, and they're strugglingwith behaviors, or management,
or just, you know, all sorts ofthings, or kids pushing back,
and people say to them, like,just really keep it in that
relationship. And then sometimesthey reach a point, and they're
like, I had lunch with them. AndI've done all these things that
like, you know, are great, butit just kind of shows there's a
difference and understanding,even with that term that we you
(23:09):
know, don't it like, yeah,there's just so many layers to
that, that I think that's agreat point.
Ashley O'Neil (23:15):
Yeah, and their life experience, I think just
brings a lot to the table, like,we talked about this in a lunch
meeting we had last week wherethey may have to unlearn a lot
of examples from their ownupbringing. And we know ACU as a
project based teacher know thepower of like test experiences
of experiencing something andthen applying that knowledge to
(23:35):
like a link of vocabulary terms.
So if you've experiencedstations for six years in
elementary school, and it meantsomething really like
structured, and really kind of,you know, driven, then when I
say, Okay, we're going to trysome stations, your default mode
is going to be to go back towhat you experience for all of
those really formative years.
And, like the education system,is having to fight all of these
(24:00):
competing experiences thatteachers have to and I think
that remembering that andremembering like, Are you
struggling with like what isperceived as chaos here? Because
you had a lot of control in yourupbringing and like in your own
classroom experience, or arethings out of hand and like,
reflecting back to self is notsomething we always talk about
in terms of like, like, youcould, it could be your opinion,
(24:25):
and maybe you need to thinkthrough why you're thinking
things that way versus I'm theteacher I know the right way.
This is what we're doing thishow we're moving forward because
I'm supposed to be the expert inthis space. I'm the grown up.
But that's complicated. Yeah.
Okay, so what are some nonnegotiables now that guide your
practice?
Megan Nix (24:49):
Oh, I'm one of them is that the kids kids come
first, always 100% In allhonesty, You're making like what
is best for the kids as a wholeand the student as an
individual. And it's not always,even, in fact, rarely the same.
(25:12):
And choice is probably anotherone. For me, I think it's
incredibly important that kidshave choice in not just how
they're learning, but whatthey're learning how it's like
how they're being assessed howthey're being asked to share
(25:32):
what they're learning, I thinkit's really important that they
have some choice in that andthat that individuality is
respected. And I think that evengoes as far as choice in, in
where they're at in theclassroom and how they you know,
where they sit, or how theirbody space is, in order to allow
them to function. Now, it goesback to that like thinking, you
(25:53):
know, everybody has to sit inyour chair to, to read this
book, or to do this thing andjust realizing that, like, they
deserve to have choice andwhat's comfortable for them. So
even into the little things, andtrying to think of the right
word for this next that like, Iguess what comes to mind first
(26:14):
is respect. I, I think it'ssuper important that in all
decisions that are being made inthe classroom in regards to like
everything from planning unitsto what we're asking kids to do
to how the classroom is managed.
It's respecting the students ashuman beings, not the opposite
of just like assuming like I am,I am the teacher, I am the coach
(26:36):
walking into the room, I amwhatever and that like, you
know, it's respecting the factthat there are people who can
make choices to and even thoughsometimes those like, choices
might result in someconsequences or things like
that, but like they still havethe right to make choices and
not have things forced uponthem. So I guess,
Ashley O'Neil (26:55):
yeah, those responses that you've shared,
were really thoughtful andworking with teachers in the way
that we do. Oftentimes, we getthe the not pushback, per se,
but maybe question or concern oflike, well, doesn't, isn't that
a binary like, this will resultin chaos? If we give students
choice? Like, the outcome ofthis is chaos, and you're in a
(27:18):
space right now, where you haveyou work with students, and I'm
assuming if that's your kind oflike front philosophy, then
that's the way you interact withstudents. And that's the way to
encourage you know, some of yourfellow teachers to interact with
students. What do you see as theoutcomes like when you give
students a lot of flexibilityand space and choice in the
classroom? Is the result chaos?
Or how could you How would youkind of express that
Megan Nix (27:40):
I like fully would say, if you just walk in and say
everybody just gets to dowhatever you want, then you
probably are aligning yourselfto that, I think there are ways
to give choice and still be aguide in that because they are
like they are still kids, right?
So there's that that framingthinking of like when I say,
choice for students, I don'tmean that they just always get
(28:01):
to pick whatever they want. Andhowever they want to do it. And
but that's different, right. Andthat can give we were just
talking about language like thatcan give that perception. So but
I think when choice is given tokids in a supported and
scaffolded way, when it's givento them with you there as
guidance, and having made clearthat you trust, like they've got
to trust for you that you'regoing to catch them if their
(28:24):
choice doesn't work, right, andthat the environment is safe for
them to make that choice becauseit's supported and encouraged.
And, you know, we're all askingquestions and being curious and
things like that. I've seen itresults in so much just
engagement and ownership oflearning for kids like where
then they they are coming backto you and asking questions that
you never would have thought of,and they're coming back to you
(28:46):
with ideas and things they wantto do, or they're coming to you
and telling you about somethingthey just went off and did
completely on their own. That isjust so amazing and so
impressive. I think when youstart to let them have choice,
it that equals ownership ofthemselves, which then it equals
ownership of their learning. Andso you're getting so much more
out of their schoolingexperience for them because of
(29:09):
that, because now, they're notjust they're learning because
you told them, This is what itis. And this is how you're going
to do it. And this is what it'sgoing to look like when you're
done. When all of that is openedup for them. There's just so
much more invested in what it isthat they're learning and that
they're doing while they're atschool. And so the payoff is
tenfold and I have seen it inkids that it lasts a lot longer
(29:31):
too.
Ashley O'Neil (29:35):
Yeah, I had a conversation actually with my
spouse. And we were talking alittle bit about something like
that. Like what if there is atime when it's like choice is
not on the table right like timeis finite. So sometimes there is
a hard end like a hard end tothings are like there are some
physical limitations to learningand I said, you know, I wonder
what it looks like then, if youcan be really transparent about
(29:58):
the things that cannot beadjusted and then offer room for
choices and give them all theflexibility within those
parameters while recognizinglike, here are the non
negotiables. Do you see thatwith some of your PBL stuff
where like, there are some hardlines, and I don't mean hard
lines like this has to be doneby this thing, but like time is
finite, like, things need to bewrapped up before winter break
(30:20):
type stuff. And then do you havethose types of conversations
when it comes to your PBL? Unit?
Megan Nix (30:26):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a kind of a robust, ready
to go PBL unit is going toinclude all of those things like
it's going to, you know, it'sframed by a driving question
that in itself gives someconstraint to that choice,
because, like, the end goal isset for you, right, so that in
itself kind of brings choice alittle bit back in. And it like,
(30:48):
always includes many deadlines,or check in points, like
feedback and peer interactionand critique is those that are
all huge through lines withproject based learning. So
that's always there, it's the,it's, it creates, for them, this
sense of like, what the realworld really does look like, you
know, like today's perfectexample of like, knowing we're
(31:10):
gonna, you know, sit down, and Ihave this thing that I'm doing
today, and it's scheduled atthis time to have this
conversation. But like, I gotcomplete choice in how I wanted
that to look, right, like thistime that we're sitting in right
now, like, I got to choose whereI was going to be, to be here
and be successful with it, andlike all of these things, but I
still I didn't get to just havethe choice of like, I'm gonna
(31:31):
wait and like do that next week,right. So like, when you're
creating a PBL unit, or I mean,even not a project based
learning unit, it's possible todo this just with when you are
looking at content, if you sayto the kids, like, you know,
we're gonna free explore aboutthis, or we're gonna explore and
I'm gonna give you six or sevenchoices of like, what material
you might look at, to learnabout this concept. But there
(31:53):
can't there's has to be an anglewith that there has to be like,
and tomorrow, we're going tohave a discussion. So you get
choice today, and how you wouldlike to learn about this to get
yourself ready for this goal.
And that's where it becomes likenot chaos, right is in your
guiding them by giving realworld expectations like life, it
comes with deadlines, it comeswith things that you need to be
ready and prepared for ahead oftime. So we can still create
(32:16):
those situations for kids thatgive those parameters and
success criteria. But open it,when you're more clear about
that stuff, I think it makes iteasier to open it up to let them
decide how they want to getthere.
Julie Cunningham (32:31):
It's funny that you gave that example about
yourself again, because I wasthinking that same thing. Like
as adults, if we lost all thecontrol that we like to take
from students, all theparameters that we like to say,
are constraints we'd like to puton students, if we did that to
one of our work days, we'd belike, Oh, my gosh, what just
happened here, somebody asked mewhat to do all day. Like, I
(32:54):
think I would lose it right. Sowhy we think that that that's
okay for to do to another evensmall human being right. And
other human being period is justkind of amazing, because most of
us would be very unhappy in thatsituation.
Megan Nix (33:08):
Well, and adding to that, though, I think a lot of
us could probably think about atime in our life where we
suddenly had all of thisfreedom, and we were not quite
ready for it yet. I mean, I knowI can think of examples where I
was like, all sudden, here youare, and like, you know, and my
life experiences had not I had,you know, you fail in those
early years, because that's myfiguring out. So the other thing
(33:30):
that I that I definitely embracenow and didn't early on in my
career is that fact that like,by giving these things to kids,
by giving that choice by openingthings up a little bit by
respecting their own, just humanuniqueness earlier on, we're
providing them a safeenvironment to start to learn
(33:50):
how to handle when things don'twork out when they missed that
deadline, when the choice theymade didn't get them to where
they want it to be. Before theylike it's much higher stakes.
Right. So I think, you know, wehear stories all the time about
kids heading off to college andnot being quite ready for all of
that or heading out into thereal world or, you know, I just
as adults, we can we have allseen those examples where we've
(34:13):
been those examples. And so Ithink part of thinking about
school and education andreframing a little bit to focus
more on these things. We'resetting them up for greater
success when it's their turn tohead out into the world and be
tackling all of the things.
Julie Cunningham (34:29):
That's a good point. And that kind of
scaffolds for them right alongthe age appropriate. I know age
appropriate way along along thepath. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (34:40):
So I think the last question that I wanted to
touch on today was some likeresources or mentors or
experiences that have been likeformative to your teaching,
because I think we'veestablished our learning as
educators does not stop when wegraduate with our degree. And so
I would just like to hear alittle bit from you about what
those things Have been for you?
Megan Nix (35:03):
Sure, um, I, a lot of that, for me has like, It's come
a lot from the world of projectbased learning, and that some of
the learning there hasdefinitely, it's carried over
into a lot of places, right, theidea of, I've started thinking
about, it's not even justproject based learning, like,
it's just it's inquiry, it'strue curiosity. So I had was
(35:26):
very lucky and got to visit HighTech High in San Diego. And
watch, there's a film called whomost likely to succeed. But, and
it just that was my firstexperience with seeing that,
like school, didn't have to looklike everybody inside of this
(35:48):
classroom at this time, likedoing all of the exact same
things following the sameschedule some of that, like I,
you know, some real actual lifeexamples of standing in the
middle of a hallway and watchinglike, kids come out of four
different classrooms and allover this, like common area that
they had. And they, they alljust like came out, no adults
present got together, andthey're like, boom, like more
focused than I had probablylike, seeing myself and some of
(36:10):
my colleagues be in somedowntime. And just like, I
distinctly remember a momentwho's standing in the middle of
the hallway there on that visit,and looking around and thinking
like, This is amazing. Like,they almost don't, you know, and
so it just kind of grew, it grewfrom there. So a lot of work
around project based learningwith some of those like,
influences. John Spencer isanother one, I've spent a lot of
(36:33):
time just kind of following hiswork around choice and inquiry
and letting kids like exploretheir passions in the classroom.
And there's just some reallypowerful stuff there. And have
been lucky enough to kind ofbuild a professional connection
with him as well. And he's donesome work with our school. So
that has definitely continued togrow my just thinking around a
(36:56):
lot of these things. And then ifI'm being completely like, open
and honest, the idea of justacknowledging and seeing kids,
as human beings really like hascome from my own two kiddos, my
youngest looks at the worlddifferently than a lot of kids
(37:18):
sitting inside of his classroomdo. And that has been just a
really interesting journey, notjust as a mom, but to think
about as a teacher, like kidswithin my building. And where I
work in classrooms where I am,are thinking about kids in
classrooms that I had at onepoint that just see the world
differently, approach thingsdifferently. And so that that
(37:42):
has been just kind of huge andeye opening for me too, in
realizing that like, just seeingthe world through his eyes, and
some of his experiences hasshaped a lot of what I see in
regards to kids being people andthat uniqueness and that just
appreciating their humaneness alittle bit.
Ashley O'Neil (38:02):
I think that goes a lot back to what you were
saying about informal time withkids, right? Like you didn't
start off with your youngest sonin a classroom like trying to
teach him how to read a phonicsreader. And you had a lot of
really informal, non pressuredtime to just observe and view
and I like that idea abouttaking the time to observe
(38:23):
students without like a specificoutcome in mind. Because then
that's when you really get tosee the opportunity. We have a
couple of our stomach scholarswho regularly volunteered after
school programs or have beensummer camp counselors, and we
have noticed just within us asa, as a whole center, we've said
Man, those students just getkids in a way that's so mature
(38:46):
or so beyond what we wouldexpect it like a 19 or 20 year
old and I think it comes from alittle bit of that of like that,
that time with kids that timeaway from the pressure of an
assessment or grade or somethingthat lets you really view them.
Julie Cunningham (39:02):
This has been an episode of teach wonder.
Thank you for listening. You canfind links in the show notes and
a full transcript of thisepisode is available on our
site.
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to Teach
Wonder.
Unknown (00:12):
Yes, Welcome to teach wonder
Introduction (00:15):
A podcast hosted by Ashley O'Neal and Julie
Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:22):
Do you look back on your first year teacher self
with kindness, or cringe, ormaybe a mix of both. I finished
my undergrad at CMU in 2010. AndI left college ready to
transform the educational worldhate. Much of my first years of
teaching are a total blur ofsomatic units and small group
(00:43):
planning. And feeling like I wasadding things to my to do list
at a faster rate than I waschecking them off. But it was
also full of so much joy. If Icould go back and talk to my
first year teacher self, I wouldtell her to slow down, I'd
recommend less coffee, I'drecommend more grace and I would
recommend fewer colorcoordinated book bins. But
(01:04):
seriously, something I reallyenjoyed about getting older is
getting the chance to reflect onthe ways that I've changed
professionally and personally.
We often send her a podcastaround growth and around change
and this episode is nodifferent. But it resonates in a
particular way for me, becausewe're interviewing a former
college classmate and co workerof mine.
Julie Cunningham (01:26):
On today's podcast, you'll hear our
interview with Meghan nicks,Meghan has worked in education
since 2010. Our interview withMegan focuses on project based
learning, student engagement,and the significant ways in
which Megan has changed sincebeginning her career. And one
last note, we give youpermission.
Ashley O'Neil (01:50):
Okay, Megan, welcome to the podcast. Can you
start by introducing yourself?
Megan Nix (01:55):
Sure. I am officially an instructional coach and PBL
consultant at Renaissance publicschool academy.
Ashley O'Neil (02:06):
Okay, so I am going to ask that you start
telling us a little bit aboutyour teaching journey if that's
okay. Yeah, absolutely.
Megan Nix (02:14):
Um, it I have been officially I suppose in
education for 12 years now. I,you know, went to college at CMU
and pursued a degree inelementary ed and special
education with an EIcertification student taught at
(02:36):
Renaissance where I'm at rightnow and stayed. And so in that
12 years, I Gosh, I don't knowit's quite the tail. I started
out teaching first grade,actually, with Ashley as my
first teaching partner. And thenwe, a couple of years in the
school decided to adopt a multiage approach. So did first and
(02:59):
second grade and kind of helpedwith getting that figured out at
the time. And then switched tothird and fourth grade with the
same kind of thought, I guess,work looking at how multi age
learning might look at that agelevel and spent a couple of
years there and then kept movingand taught that didn't sixth
(03:21):
grade for three years before Imoved out of the classroom and
into an instructional coachingrole. And so that's kind of
where I am right now. So acrossa lot and now my primary focus
is project based learning for myschool, as well as in struggled
(03:43):
for fifth through eighth gradesand of course, in the world of
education that looks completelydifferent from year to year. So
right now I am supporting ourteachers K in my building with
pretty much anything andeverything curriculum related
PBL math, literacy, newresources, all of the things so
Ashley O'Neil (04:04):
perfect. Yeah, I we talk to each other for just
one year. I can't remember if itwas one or if it was two.
Megan Nix (04:09):
No, I'm pretty sure.
I think it was two. Yep. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (04:14):
Yeah, those those years like blur together just a
little bit because I think wewere both so early in our
careers that everything felt newall the time. And both. So Megan
and I have this similar or wehad this similar personality
where like, we were going toreinvent all the wheels. Being a
first year teacher wasn't trickyenough. So we were just gonna,
like go really had to likereinventing the curriculum and
(04:37):
everything. So I feel like eachyear felt a little bit like a
new year because we were justdoing a lot of new things every
time
Megan Nix (04:43):
for sure. And I wish that I could say that that has
like changed but if I'm beingcompletely honest, I don't feel
like that has really changed andI don't know if it's just me.
And like you said like alwaysreinventing things or if it's
just that every year bringssomething new as like, I think
something new in me as well asnew with kids and new with my
(05:05):
role. And so I don't know. Yeah,I think about those early years,
and it does all kind of blurtogether. Because I think
exactly what you said though,like every, every single year
has just brought something newand it all kind of blends
sometimes.
Ashley O'Neil (05:18):
Can you this was not a question. So I'm already
breaking rules. But I am alittle bit curious about how you
think about, could you talk alittle bit about how you and
your school think about PBL?
Because some people are superfamiliar, some people are not.
And then some people havedifferent definitions.
Julie Cunningham (05:34):
That was my follow up question.
Megan Nix (05:38):
You're gonna have to be careful with that one,
though. Because once you get mestarted, I might not stop. So
write me and if you need to. Butwe we think about project based
learning as a instructionaltechnique or strategy, I suppose
for helping kids engage with allof the learning and things they
(05:59):
need to do in school in the mostauthentic way possible. So when
I say project based learning, Ipicture, a backwards design
process that looks at what kidsneed to have mastered in, you
know, three weeks or six weeksfrom now. And then working from
there and thinking about whatmight be some experiences we can
(06:20):
help provide them and someopportunities for them to ask
questions and dig into thingsand kind of drive learning for
the next few weeks that will endus in some sort of place, or
that will have some sort ofauthentic purpose. So thinking
about what would be somethingthat would people would really
do with this knowledge? And howcan we guide students towards
(06:42):
working with that? And so yeah,so that's where it comes in. So
the learning happens in orderfor them to be successful with
whatever that end goal might be.
Julie Cunningham (06:51):
Okay, can I ask a follow up question? We do
this all the time. Usually, it'snot the same follow up question,
though. That sounds fabulous.
Everything you said soundsfabulous. And And why wouldn't
we want kids to be authenticlearners. But sometimes the way
it plays out in a traditional K12 school setting can be a
little bit of a struggle fordepending on plan, right? What
(07:14):
parameters are in place tosupport that. So if you can just
give our listeners just asnapshot of the kind of things
that you think you'vespecifically had to support for
classroom teachers to be able todo that. So I don't know if you
have like an example. Or if youcan think about when you think
(07:36):
about your instructionalcoaching, like where do most
supports come in? Where wouldpeople look remote, the most
supports when they think aboutproject based learning
Megan Nix (07:46):
right now. And I want to caveat that by saying we are
in year five of a journey inthis direction, so my teachers
are not generally coming in toproject based learning like new
right now. Or if they are new,they're coming in, in a
structure that's already inplace to kind of help that be
successful. So I guess I want totalk about what is the focus
(08:09):
mostly now, compared to what itwas when we first started? If
that's okay,
Julie Cunningham (08:13):
yeah. And I think that's a great context.
And that, that's really tellingthat you've been at it for five
years. Like it's not a finishedproduct, right, even Oh, number.
So I think that's, I thinkthat's really important message
as well.
Unknown (08:27):
Yeah, absolutely. And that's where, you know, right
now, I think faces of theteachers that I support every
day, and some of them have beenon this journey, right along
with me, you know, in the lastfive years, and some of them are
either brand new to us, or brandnew to teaching and all of the
above so, but because we are ina place where, you know, our
(08:48):
curriculum, our pacing, ourpriority standards have all been
structured to lend themselvestowards using project based
learning. The thing that Isupport teachers with most right
now is just the it's theorganization of it, it's been
figuring out how to take thisreally big and really cool and
exciting idea and take all ofthat excitement and bring it
down to a place where you canlook at your lesson plans, and
(09:11):
okay, what does Monday need tolook like? And what this Tuesday
need to look like? Which I mean,and that's, I think that's the
reality of what teachers live inwhatever structure is like, yes,
it's all well and great, butwhat does it look like when I
have 25? Kids right in front ofme? And how do I be ready for
that? So that's where I spendmost of my time supporting is
meeting with teams and teachersand talking about like, our, you
(09:33):
know, a great example right nowour first graders are digging
into light and sound and one ofthe standards Well, the
standards all have to do withplaying with light and sound
learning about that, but one ofthem specifically has to do with
using light and sound tocommunicate in some way. And so
we you know, we have met severaltimes and thrown out all of the
ideas possible under the sun andall these really cool things
(09:55):
that would be so fun to let themjust give them these materials
and let them explore and seewhat They found in talking about
it and, and how you know, andgetting them to a point of like
they could communicate theirclassrooms right across the
hall. So all of these super funideas. And now I take all of
that and start to put it intothis like unit plan that helps
them think about how does theday to day happen. But how does
(10:17):
that day to day continue to worktowards that end goal and make
sure that it's left open enoughthat the kids have time and
space to ask questions, and wecan like change course partway
through them. And that likethat's probably the trickiest
piece, once you get going withit is knowing like I have full
permission to do this. I haveschedule that allows me to do
it. I know what standards arethe priority. But then in
(10:40):
reality, like, still figuringout exactly what that looks
like, each day is tricky. Sothat's where Focus comes from
right now like primarily,thinking about, you know, five
years ago, or even three yearsago, when we were first starting
with this and supportingteachers, it looks different
than that, because it still wasin the early phases of I think
(11:02):
focusing a lot on permission,per like, not where I'm at not
permission from like a schoolleadership place, but more of
permission like from ourselvesand what traditional structures
of schooling have taught us thatit's supposed to look like. So
supporting my teachers withbeing comfortable with thinking
outside of the box. And beingcomfortable with thinking like,
(11:24):
it would be amazing if we justthrew some pails and sand and a
ton of different size speakersat them and saw what happened.
And being comfortable with that.
Because it is such a change fromwhat it looked like when we were
in school, it's a change fromwhat it probably looks like up
till then it's a change frommaybe what it looks like in
classrooms that they'd worked inprior. And that's like that
was for sure, in those earlyyears, the majority of what we
(12:02):
were talking about and workingon and we've just come a long
way since then, as a school, butthat doesn't mean there aren't a
lot of people who are still, youknow, in those early phases of
thinking about how it just itcan look different. And there's
got to be permission there. So
Julie Cunningham (12:18):
I love that response. Thank you, Megan. And
I think that will really helpour listeners think even more
deeply about what you mean byPBL. Right. I think that that
was great. Thank you. Thanks forarticulating it just
Ashley O'Neil (12:35):
I, I want it we I'm sure it will come back to
PBL. And I think that's great.
But selfishly, I Brian again onmy podcast for very selfish
reasons in that she is myeducational twin. Because we
were born, I mean, like a dayapart. I think our birthdays are
very close to the same age. Wegraduated at the same time, we
ended up teaching at the sameschool. And we I would say that
(12:56):
we probably were quite similarback in time. And I would say
that I have changed quite a bitsince we were teaching together.
And I imagine that you have alsochanged quite a bit since our
first year teaching first gradetogether. And I want to hear a
little bit about how you lookback at your career. We talk a
lot in this space about beingreflective as teachers. And I
(13:18):
just think that exercise withyou would be really interesting.
So would you talk a little bitabout how you would describe
your self as a teacher backthen? And now? And a little bit
about maybe that shift?
Megan Nix (13:34):
Sure, absolutely. Um, it is, it is such a weird thing
to think about. And I do feellike every time I actually you
and I get together like I youknow, flooded with all these
memories of like, who we wenttoward what that looked like, it
was wonderful, wonderful. Don'tget me wrong. But yeah, I think
I often think like, if I couldreverse time, there's so many
(13:56):
things I would do differently.
And it's not even just 12 yearsago to the beginning. It's I
think about three years ago whenI was still in my own classroom
or you know. So that's it's sucha big question to answer. But I
think when I think about it,when I first started teaching, I
had this image of what it wasgoing to look like and what it
was going to be. And if I'mbeing totally honest, it was an
(14:17):
event driven by what I thoughtit meant to be teacher and how
cute and organized the classroomcould be and how sweet those
little faces were and how fun itwould be when we were all making
the same, you know, bat crap,are just some of those things
that come to mind that like, Ithink I was, you know, I was
eager and excited andpassionate. And I think I would
(14:40):
say all of those same thingsabout myself. But I think what I
thought that that looked like orwhat I was passionate about was
very different. I didn't have astrong understanding of what
different individuals kidsinside of my classroom were
like, you know, I would spend somuch time Setting up the space
and all of these perfect littlethings and desks and groups. And
(15:01):
I definitely, I valued lettingthe kid you know, asking them
questions as their time withthem. But I didn't have as
strong of an understanding as Ido now of the fact that like,
they come to you as theseindividual little human beings,
and not that you're turning theminto human beings, if that makes
any type of sense. And so thatthat, for me is a huge
(15:25):
difference. And then you add tothat, just all of the new
knowledge like just I mean, whenyou first come out of college,
you, you think you know how todo it, and then you go in, and
it's like, oh, my, but I alsothink that like we the world of
education itself has learned somuch since I, you know, first
entered the classroom just aboutteaching, reading, and about the
(15:48):
way kids learn, and all that haschanged. And this, you know, I
think it's probably prettyobvious at this point that I am
really passionate about schoollooking different than it did
when I was in school, when youknow, we were younger, I'm
really passionate about lookingfor non traditional ways to let
kids just be people and becurious and stay curious
(16:13):
forever. And I didn't have asmuch of a value or even an
understanding that it could lookdifferent at that time, like I
do now.
Ashley O'Neil (16:24):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense when
you were talking. I think if Icould like label an area of
change, for me, it was about theword management, we talked so
much in our classes about likeclassroom management, and
behavior management. And now Icringe at this idea of like
managing other people,especially managing young
(16:45):
people. And I, when you talkabout thinking about children,
as individuals who come fullyformed with their own history
and their own context, beingwilling to see all of your
students with all of theirlayers is complicated. And I
don't think I had the lifeexperience to fully like,
(17:05):
conceptualize that when I was23. And teaching first grade,
but I hear you, and you say likethat, that has become far more
paramount to me. And I think mybeginning career, I was really
into, like literacy andengagement and creating like
differentiated centers. And Ithought that by doing that, I
could like, just throw out allof this stuff that I knew is
(17:29):
good. And maybe it's still good,maybe. But it was very
disconnected from my actualaudience, because I didn't have
the practice of tuning into whothe learners were in my room and
actually being responsive totheir teaching or to like, what
they were trying to tell me withtheir bare like communication.
So that's, that's superinteresting. Do you have any
(17:50):
questions? Yeah, sorry.
Julie Cunningham (17:52):
Well, I think I have a question for both of
you. And so do you think that Imean, we say that to pre service
teachers, I feel like whenthey're in college courses,
right, like, I don't think thatthat message isn't? I don't
think the message is, is absentfrom college teaching courses,
but maybe the where, and I don'twant to get into how college
(18:15):
students are taught whetherthat's right or wrong. But what
I hear you saying is, even as ayoung teacher, you're not sure
if your experiences will allowyou to see that until you
experience teaching. And yet Iwonder like, how can we get
students to recognize thatsooner and preserve and insert
sorry, pre service teachers torecognize that sooner? So that,
(18:39):
right, so that were there forthe children? Earlier in our
careers? Like, do you thinkthere's a way that that can
happen that can be bettersupported?
Megan Nix (18:51):
I, I think it comes from a couple of things. One,
like, I spent some time, youknow, in classrooms like going
through there were required timeto spend with kids and observing
in rooms. And then there weresome, you know, where I had
chosen, obviously, I enjoyedworking with kids. So I had
chosen some jobs and experiencesthat led to that stuff. But I
(19:12):
don't think enough to havereally, like understood, like, I
think part of it is the moretime that you can spend
interacting with kids and likejust that's where that
realization that like they are,you know, they're just as much
human beings and people and havetheir own personalities and
experiences as the other adultsthat we walk our life with. And
(19:34):
I didn't, it's hard to explainbecause it's like, you know, I
knew that they were allindividuals, but just that
understanding grows, the moretime that you spend working with
kids. And then I also thinkit's, it's getting those
experiences that pre serviceteachers have outside of just
traditional places to like, Iwould love to see more
(19:58):
opportunities to work with kids.
I'm in after school programs andhave that count towards, you
know, schooling and summer campprograms and count towards
schooling and some of thatstuff. Because I that probably
lends to my own bias that like,education does should not look
like so traditional, and socookie cutter. But I think the
more than they can see andexperience kids and realize that
(20:19):
kids learn in those places, andhow they just step up
experiences in differentenvironments, would be really
beneficial. Because that's thenwhen you look at a classroom,
and you start to kind of turnyour head and think like, like,
why do these four walls look sodifferent than a summer camp
program or daycare or like wherethese kids are truly spending
life? You know, but you have tosee it a little bit more.
Ashley O'Neil (20:42):
I think that's a great response. And I, so I'm
teaching a couple of undergradsright now in a an online class,
which is presenting its ownunique challenges. But that's a
great like, your question iswell timed, because we're doing
this section all about, like,balance look like a literacy
classroom, and what your idealclassroom would look like, which
to me was like the most fun,let's dream up our great
classroom and their dreams wereall like, before I even read
(21:07):
their papers, there was a lot ofcrossover in their dreams,
because they very much soundedlike the classrooms that maybe I
had grown up in, maybe they hadgrown up in. And the other thing
I think is interesting is like,sometimes I think we as maybe
more practiced teachers, we cantake these really big concepts,
and we break them down into intolingo. But we aren't as great at
onboarding people into thenuances of what that language
(21:30):
is. And my example for this aswe were talking about sharing
control of a classroom, and thetrue nuanced, like conversation
was really about giving studentsmeaningful choice in a
classroom, which is important,which matters, right, like
giving them a sense of like,this is their space as much as
they adults, but then, when thatwas reflected back to some of my
students, their immediate go tois what that word control. And
(21:51):
so they thought only in terms ofhow like, children should be in
control of their bodies,teachers who would give children
security by being in control ofthe classroom. And so like, this
big nuanced concept, because Ihadn't spent enough time kind of
breaking down all the layers ofthat. They imparted a bunch of
their own context onto thatword. And I think sometimes we
(22:12):
do that in education, wherelike, we shorthand stuff, and we
don't realize that we do it. Andthen as we have these pre
service teachers coming in, theyjust get the short handed
version of all of thatcomplicated meaning. So that's
my, like, add on to that.
Megan Nix (22:27):
Yeah, that makes me think of the term like right
now, it's, you hear iteverywhere, like it's about
relationships, buildrelationships with your
students, like, you know,relationships have to come
first, which I totally agreewith. But I think that there are
differences in the nuances ofwhat that actually means and
what that word means insometimes, like, when a brand
new teacher walks into aclassroom, and you know, in
(22:49):
there, and they're strugglingwith behaviors, or management,
or just, you know, all sorts ofthings, or kids pushing back,
and people say to them, like,just really keep it in that
relationship. And then sometimesthey reach a point, and they're
like, I had lunch with them. AndI've done all these things that
like, you know, are great, butit just kind of shows there's a
difference and understanding,even with that term that we you
(23:09):
know, don't it like, yeah,there's just so many layers to
that, that I think that's agreat point.
Ashley O'Neil (23:15):
Yeah, and their life experience, I think just
brings a lot to the table, like,we talked about this in a lunch
meeting we had last week wherethey may have to unlearn a lot
of examples from their ownupbringing. And we know ACU as a
project based teacher know thepower of like test experiences
of experiencing something andthen applying that knowledge to
(23:35):
like a link of vocabulary terms.
So if you've experiencedstations for six years in
elementary school, and it meantsomething really like
structured, and really kind of,you know, driven, then when I
say, Okay, we're going to trysome stations, your default mode
is going to be to go back towhat you experience for all of
those really formative years.
And, like the education system,is having to fight all of these
(24:00):
competing experiences thatteachers have to and I think
that remembering that andremembering like, Are you
struggling with like what isperceived as chaos here? Because
you had a lot of control in yourupbringing and like in your own
classroom experience, or arethings out of hand and like,
reflecting back to self is notsomething we always talk about
in terms of like, like, youcould, it could be your opinion,
(24:25):
and maybe you need to thinkthrough why you're thinking
things that way versus I'm theteacher I know the right way.
This is what we're doing thishow we're moving forward because
I'm supposed to be the expert inthis space. I'm the grown up.
But that's complicated. Yeah.
Okay, so what are some nonnegotiables now that guide your
practice?
Megan Nix (24:49):
Oh, I'm one of them is that the kids kids come
first, always 100% In allhonesty, You're making like what
is best for the kids as a wholeand the student as an
individual. And it's not always,even, in fact, rarely the same.
(25:12):
And choice is probably anotherone. For me, I think it's
incredibly important that kidshave choice in not just how
they're learning, but whatthey're learning how it's like
how they're being assessed howthey're being asked to share
(25:32):
what they're learning, I thinkit's really important that they
have some choice in that andthat that individuality is
respected. And I think that evengoes as far as choice in, in
where they're at in theclassroom and how they you know,
where they sit, or how theirbody space is, in order to allow
them to function. Now, it goesback to that like thinking, you
(25:53):
know, everybody has to sit inyour chair to, to read this
book, or to do this thing andjust realizing that, like, they
deserve to have choice andwhat's comfortable for them. So
even into the little things, andtrying to think of the right
word for this next that like, Iguess what comes to mind first
(26:14):
is respect. I, I think it'ssuper important that in all
decisions that are being made inthe classroom in regards to like
everything from planning unitsto what we're asking kids to do
to how the classroom is managed.
It's respecting the students ashuman beings, not the opposite
of just like assuming like I am,I am the teacher, I am the coach
(26:36):
walking into the room, I amwhatever and that like, you
know, it's respecting the factthat there are people who can
make choices to and even thoughsometimes those like, choices
might result in someconsequences or things like
that, but like they still havethe right to make choices and
not have things forced uponthem. So I guess,
Ashley O'Neil (26:55):
yeah, those responses that you've shared,
were really thoughtful andworking with teachers in the way
that we do. Oftentimes, we getthe the not pushback, per se,
but maybe question or concern oflike, well, doesn't, isn't that
a binary like, this will resultin chaos? If we give students
choice? Like, the outcome ofthis is chaos, and you're in a
(27:18):
space right now, where you haveyou work with students, and I'm
assuming if that's your kind oflike front philosophy, then
that's the way you interact withstudents. And that's the way to
encourage you know, some of yourfellow teachers to interact with
students. What do you see as theoutcomes like when you give
students a lot of flexibilityand space and choice in the
classroom? Is the result chaos?
Or how could you How would youkind of express that
Megan Nix (27:40):
I like fully would say, if you just walk in and say
everybody just gets to dowhatever you want, then you
probably are aligning yourselfto that, I think there are ways
to give choice and still be aguide in that because they are
like they are still kids, right?
So there's that that framingthinking of like when I say,
choice for students, I don'tmean that they just always get
(28:01):
to pick whatever they want. Andhowever they want to do it. And
but that's different, right. Andthat can give we were just
talking about language like thatcan give that perception. So but
I think when choice is given tokids in a supported and
scaffolded way, when it's givento them with you there as
guidance, and having made clearthat you trust, like they've got
to trust for you that you'regoing to catch them if their
(28:24):
choice doesn't work, right, andthat the environment is safe for
them to make that choice becauseit's supported and encouraged.
And, you know, we're all askingquestions and being curious and
things like that. I've seen itresults in so much just
engagement and ownership oflearning for kids like where
then they they are coming backto you and asking questions that
you never would have thought of,and they're coming back to you
(28:46):
with ideas and things they wantto do, or they're coming to you
and telling you about somethingthey just went off and did
completely on their own. That isjust so amazing and so
impressive. I think when youstart to let them have choice,
it that equals ownership ofthemselves, which then it equals
ownership of their learning. Andso you're getting so much more
out of their schoolingexperience for them because of
(29:09):
that, because now, they're notjust they're learning because
you told them, This is what itis. And this is how you're going
to do it. And this is what it'sgoing to look like when you're
done. When all of that is openedup for them. There's just so
much more invested in what it isthat they're learning and that
they're doing while they're atschool. And so the payoff is
tenfold and I have seen it inkids that it lasts a lot longer
(29:31):
too.
Ashley O'Neil (29:35):
Yeah, I had a conversation actually with my
spouse. And we were talking alittle bit about something like
that. Like what if there is atime when it's like choice is
not on the table right like timeis finite. So sometimes there is
a hard end like a hard end tothings are like there are some
physical limitations to learningand I said, you know, I wonder
what it looks like then, if youcan be really transparent about
(29:58):
the things that cannot beadjusted and then offer room for
choices and give them all theflexibility within those
parameters while recognizinglike, here are the non
negotiables. Do you see thatwith some of your PBL stuff
where like, there are some hardlines, and I don't mean hard
lines like this has to be doneby this thing, but like time is
finite, like, things need to bewrapped up before winter break
(30:20):
type stuff. And then do you havethose types of conversations
when it comes to your PBL? Unit?
Megan Nix (30:26):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, a kind of a robust, ready
to go PBL unit is going toinclude all of those things like
it's going to, you know, it'sframed by a driving question
that in itself gives someconstraint to that choice,
because, like, the end goal isset for you, right, so that in
itself kind of brings choice alittle bit back in. And it like,
(30:48):
always includes many deadlines,or check in points, like
feedback and peer interactionand critique is those that are
all huge through lines withproject based learning. So
that's always there, it's the,it's, it creates, for them, this
sense of like, what the realworld really does look like, you
know, like today's perfectexample of like, knowing we're
(31:10):
gonna, you know, sit down, and Ihave this thing that I'm doing
today, and it's scheduled atthis time to have this
conversation. But like, I gotcomplete choice in how I wanted
that to look, right, like thistime that we're sitting in right
now, like, I got to choose whereI was going to be, to be here
and be successful with it, andlike all of these things, but I
still I didn't get to just havethe choice of like, I'm gonna
(31:31):
wait and like do that next week,right. So like, when you're
creating a PBL unit, or I mean,even not a project based
learning unit, it's possible todo this just with when you are
looking at content, if you sayto the kids, like, you know,
we're gonna free explore aboutthis, or we're gonna explore and
I'm gonna give you six or sevenchoices of like, what material
you might look at, to learnabout this concept. But there
(31:53):
can't there's has to be an anglewith that there has to be like,
and tomorrow, we're going tohave a discussion. So you get
choice today, and how you wouldlike to learn about this to get
yourself ready for this goal.
And that's where it becomes likenot chaos, right is in your
guiding them by giving realworld expectations like life, it
comes with deadlines, it comeswith things that you need to be
ready and prepared for ahead oftime. So we can still create
(32:16):
those situations for kids thatgive those parameters and
success criteria. But open it,when you're more clear about
that stuff, I think it makes iteasier to open it up to let them
decide how they want to getthere.
Julie Cunningham (32:31):
It's funny that you gave that example about
yourself again, because I wasthinking that same thing. Like
as adults, if we lost all thecontrol that we like to take
from students, all theparameters that we like to say,
are constraints we'd like to puton students, if we did that to
one of our work days, we'd belike, Oh, my gosh, what just
happened here, somebody asked mewhat to do all day. Like, I
(32:54):
think I would lose it right. Sowhy we think that that that's
okay for to do to another evensmall human being right. And
other human being period is justkind of amazing, because most of
us would be very unhappy in thatsituation.
Megan Nix (33:08):
Well, and adding to that, though, I think a lot of
us could probably think about atime in our life where we
suddenly had all of thisfreedom, and we were not quite
ready for it yet. I mean, I knowI can think of examples where I
was like, all sudden, here youare, and like, you know, and my
life experiences had not I had,you know, you fail in those
early years, because that's myfiguring out. So the other thing
(33:30):
that I that I definitely embracenow and didn't early on in my
career is that fact that like,by giving these things to kids,
by giving that choice by openingthings up a little bit by
respecting their own, just humanuniqueness earlier on, we're
providing them a safeenvironment to start to learn
(33:50):
how to handle when things don'twork out when they missed that
deadline, when the choice theymade didn't get them to where
they want it to be. Before theylike it's much higher stakes.
Right. So I think, you know, wehear stories all the time about
kids heading off to college andnot being quite ready for all of
that or heading out into thereal world or, you know, I just
as adults, we can we have allseen those examples where we've
(34:13):
been those examples. And so Ithink part of thinking about
school and education andreframing a little bit to focus
more on these things. We'resetting them up for greater
success when it's their turn tohead out into the world and be
tackling all of the things.
Julie Cunningham (34:29):
That's a good point. And that kind of
scaffolds for them right alongthe age appropriate. I know age
appropriate way along along thepath. Yeah.
Ashley O'Neil (34:40):
So I think the last question that I wanted to
touch on today was some likeresources or mentors or
experiences that have been likeformative to your teaching,
because I think we'veestablished our learning as
educators does not stop when wegraduate with our degree. And so
I would just like to hear alittle bit from you about what
those things Have been for you?
Megan Nix (35:03):
Sure, um, I, a lot of that, for me has like, It's come
a lot from the world of projectbased learning, and that some of
the learning there hasdefinitely, it's carried over
into a lot of places, right, theidea of, I've started thinking
about, it's not even justproject based learning, like,
it's just it's inquiry, it'strue curiosity. So I had was
(35:26):
very lucky and got to visit HighTech High in San Diego. And
watch, there's a film called whomost likely to succeed. But, and
it just that was my firstexperience with seeing that,
like school, didn't have to looklike everybody inside of this
(35:48):
classroom at this time, likedoing all of the exact same
things following the sameschedule some of that, like I,
you know, some real actual lifeexamples of standing in the
middle of a hallway and watchinglike, kids come out of four
different classrooms and allover this, like common area that
they had. And they, they alljust like came out, no adults
present got together, andthey're like, boom, like more
focused than I had probablylike, seeing myself and some of
(36:10):
my colleagues be in somedowntime. And just like, I
distinctly remember a momentwho's standing in the middle of
the hallway there on that visit,and looking around and thinking
like, This is amazing. Like,they almost don't, you know, and
so it just kind of grew, it grewfrom there. So a lot of work
around project based learningwith some of those like,
influences. John Spencer isanother one, I've spent a lot of
(36:33):
time just kind of following hiswork around choice and inquiry
and letting kids like exploretheir passions in the classroom.
And there's just some reallypowerful stuff there. And have
been lucky enough to kind ofbuild a professional connection
with him as well. And he's donesome work with our school. So
that has definitely continued togrow my just thinking around a
(36:56):
lot of these things. And then ifI'm being completely like, open
and honest, the idea of justacknowledging and seeing kids,
as human beings really like hascome from my own two kiddos, my
youngest looks at the worlddifferently than a lot of kids
(37:18):
sitting inside of his classroomdo. And that has been just a
really interesting journey, notjust as a mom, but to think
about as a teacher, like kidswithin my building. And where I
work in classrooms where I am,are thinking about kids in
classrooms that I had at onepoint that just see the world
differently, approach thingsdifferently. And so that that
(37:42):
has been just kind of huge andeye opening for me too, in
realizing that like, just seeingthe world through his eyes, and
some of his experiences hasshaped a lot of what I see in
regards to kids being people andthat uniqueness and that just
appreciating their humaneness alittle bit.
Ashley O'Neil (38:02):
I think that goes a lot back to what you were
saying about informal time withkids, right? Like you didn't
start off with your youngest sonin a classroom like trying to
teach him how to read a phonicsreader. And you had a lot of
really informal, non pressuredtime to just observe and view
and I like that idea abouttaking the time to observe
(38:23):
students without like a specificoutcome in mind. Because then
that's when you really get tosee the opportunity. We have a
couple of our stomach scholarswho regularly volunteered after
school programs or have beensummer camp counselors, and we
have noticed just within us asa, as a whole center, we've said
Man, those students just getkids in a way that's so mature
(38:46):
or so beyond what we wouldexpect it like a 19 or 20 year
old and I think it comes from alittle bit of that of like that,
that time with kids that timeaway from the pressure of an
assessment or grade or somethingthat lets you really view them.
Julie Cunningham (39:02):
This has been an episode of teach wonder.
Thank you for listening. You canfind links in the show notes and
a full transcript of thisepisode is available on our
site.
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