March 13, 2022 • 54 mins
Brandis Ansley is a faculty member at Central Michigan University in the special education department. Prior to getting her PhD, Brandis worked in the mental health field and as a special education teacher. This podcast explores the ways in which stress affects, students, teachers, and the education system.
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Episode Transcript
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Introduction (00:00):
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to teach
wonder. Wonder podcast hosted byAshley O'Neill and Julie
Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:19):
When I was a young teacher, I answered emails
late at night, I wrappedstations home to cut out on the
weekends and spent much of mysummer organizing my classroom
space and researching new andeffective strategies for my
students. I would get to schoolat least an hour before the day
started. Because the small timesof prep that I had, would give
(00:42):
me time to lesson plan, orgrade, or make copies and run to
the restroom or work with astudent one on one. Never all
those things though. Andhonestly, it didn't truly touch
on the pile of work that I wouldneed to do to feel ready to lead
a group of kids for seven hoursa day. I always thought okay,
once I've been doing this for awhile, it would start to become
less consuming. And after a fewyears it did. And it didn't.
(01:05):
Because with every new class,there were new things to learn,
the more comfortable I got withmy curriculum, and the more
committees I was assigned togiven teachers to mentor new
projects to do. I've told you Iwas handling it all just fine.
And I thought that it was Ididn't mind grading papers in
the couch with a coffee. Mysocial circle was mostly
teachers, so I didn't have thecomparison of another way to be.
And then I watched one of mydearest friends leave teaching
(01:28):
after a few years. She had moretalent and passion than anybody
I knew. And the education systemis still missing out on her
skills today. The reason sheleft are hers, but they're
related to our conversationtoday. My own last year in the
classroom was as a new parent.
Our baby was on a healthjourney. And it meant that I was
missing a lot of work fordoctor's appointments and
unknowns. Our situation wouldhave been difficult in a lot of
(01:50):
professions and impossible inmany. I had a wonderfully
supportive administrator andhelpful union rep who got me to
understand the logistics ofborrowing days and asking for
extended time off. But as ateacher- it meant that I was
leaving five year olds in a veryunpredictable schedule. And I
was giving worksheets becausethey were easier to plan for
subs and stations and hands onactivities. And I was forced to
(02:12):
really look at how I madeteaching work and how the stress
and pressure I put on myself wasnot working for anybody that
year. And there were thingswithin my control that I could
have changed that would havebeen better for me and my family
and students. And there are alsothings out of my control that
heavily impacted my ability tobe effective and healthy that
year. I share this today to helphighlight the personal nature of
(02:33):
teaching and the topic ofstress. Caregiving and
relationship- based professionsrequire a lot of emotional
input. So today, we asked brandyAinslie, a faculty member here
at CMU. To talk to us more aboutthis topic. Brittany has made
much of her professionalresearch about stress and mental
health and education. A quicknote before the interview,
(02:54):
around the 25 minute mark,you'll hear a brief reference to
school violence. I'll shareinstructions just before that
section to let you know how youcan avoid it if you'd like.
...Welcome. We're really glad tobe talking with you today. And
can you start by telling us alittle bit about yourself?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (03:12):
All right, well, I'm in my fourth year as
an assistant professor ofspecial education at CMU. And I
actually I came here fromGeorgia, at Georgia State
University is where I got myPhD. And I, before doing that
was a special education teacherin Georgia, taught in middle and
(03:35):
high school settings, but mostlyhigh school for eight years. And
prior to that my career wasactually in mental health care.
And so I have some experiencewith both individual and group
therapies, but also being acommunity based instructor on
mental well beingissues.
Ashley O'Neil (03:57):
So I already have a question that's not on our
list. Because what I have aspecial ed degree as well, and I
taught for a couple of years inthe classroom. And now I
obviously work at CMU, but whatmade you your career is kind of
the foot flap, what made you gofrom the community therapy and
group therapy back into specialeducation in the classroom?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (04:19):
Well, there were actually a number of
factors that encouraged me totake that route. One of them was
at the time I had youngchildren, and I raised them
mostly by myself. And so thejobs that I was looking at at
the time of finishing mymaster's degree would have had
(04:40):
me working till like seven oreight at night. And while we
know that teachers easily canwork that late too, you can at
least you know, go home and bewith your kids if need be. But
also another thing is that oneof my biggest frustrations in
the Mental health care field andthis may have changed since then
(05:03):
it was over 20 years ago. But atthe time, it it's like, you
know, when people come totherapy, and they're not
necessarily doing well, and youknow, which is what a therapist
is there to help with. But thenwhen they start to feel a little
bit better, they tend to dropout, and then relapse. And then
(05:28):
also, with, I guess, with thingslike, time, or whatever, it
seems like people's mentalhealth pursuits, would be the
first to go in a hectic world,which would likely come up in
the conversation about ineducation as well. But one thing
(05:53):
I liked about the idea of beinga teacher was a bit more
consistency and continuity. Andthat even includes students who
tend to be absent a bit, I feltlike I still had a bit more
consistency with them, thenwith, like in clinical settings.
Ashley O'Neil (06:14):
Absolutely. That makes that makes a ton of sense.
I think we talk often thatthat's the thing we all miss the
most not being directly in theclassroom anymore is that I
don't have a whole year or twoyears or three years to build
relationships with students tobecome a constant for them. And
when he talks about when youtalk about building good
relationships with kids, itoften means time, and regular
(06:36):
touch points. And you can dokitschy one off things to kind
of build camaraderie but truerelationships take a long time.
And that's, that's hard to do.
So in addition to teaching yourclasses, I know that you have a
research area of interest or atopic that you kind of have a
lot of passion and put a lot oftime and energy into. And it
focuses a lot on teacher burnoutand develop. I'm just
summarizing so you can clarify.
(06:59):
But Teacher burnout anddeveloping resilience, thinking
about how stress and trauma playinto the classroom. What led you
to focusing on those areas? I'msure a little bit was your
community background. But canyou talk a little bit more about
that?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (07:14):
Absolutely, I can talk all day about it. So
from the beginning, you know,like you said, I did have a
different professionalbackground in working on
different topics related tomental and emotional well being.
But I probably should addthat...(fade out)
Ashley O'Neil (07:34):
Brandis has a diverse set of experiences
working in the mental healthfield that came prior to
teaching and prior to her timeas a professor. This includes
providing mental health supportfor individuals and things like
cardiac rehab group classes thatbuild new habits and stress
management for individualslooking for change, long term
support for ongoing mentalhealth concerns, and one on one
sessions and a universityclinic. And these diverse
(07:56):
experiences revealed animportant common thread.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (07:59):
one of the main things is that whether it
was someone who was beingtreated for having an adjustment
disorder, or working through apersonal crisis at that time, or
someone with a, a chronic mentalhealth issue, that the one key
(08:21):
thing to managing all of it,that they all had in common was
the importance of managingstress. And that if you manage
your stress, you go really farto manage just about any other
condition, physical, mental,emotional, and nature. And so
(08:41):
that always stuck with me. Butthen when I became a teacher, I
pretty quickly saw that theculture is very different for
education than it is for otherhuman services providers. Now,
yes, it is stressful to everyonewho provides Human Services. So
(09:02):
I definitely am not trying todiminish the stress that happens
to that to therapists to socialworkers, and so forth. But one
key difference is that ineducation that was almost
ignored, whereas in likepsychology and social work, one
(09:23):
of the big things in preparationis you must take care of your
well being in order to take careof others in the education
field. And like in schoolsettings, there wasn't a lot of
talk about issues of stress orhow it's affecting one's well
being or one's performance, orin a lot of cases, the students
(09:47):
and how it affects our students.
And so I was so surprised to seea very essential psychological
factor left out of that. Ieventually started having issues
with burnout. And it's like, Iknew better from my previous
experience, but it's like Istill forgot. I'm also I should
(10:09):
add that it's not justexperience as a, as a
professional from the psychologyfield, but also for as long as I
can remember having my ownmental health battles. And so
it, so it's professional, butit's also personal to me. And I
(10:30):
will say that, probably right,right in that last year that I
was a teacher, I didn't know itwas going to be my last year
because the opportunity topursue my PhD and go, the route
of higher education was acomplete surprise to me. But
after having some experienceswhere it had a very, very
(10:53):
deleterious effect on my wellbeing and my self esteem, but
also my physical health, and soI knew that I needed to go back
to that aspect that I was veryfamiliar with. And, you know,
start practicing again, what Ireally, truly believe in, and I
(11:16):
did start to feel better. Butthen I, then I went on to the
Ph. D. program. And so I like toadd that in, especially when I'm
working in a professionaldevelopment setting. Because if
I'm working on this topic withpeople, I tried to like, like, I
want to relate to them. And thatyes, I have experienced it as
(11:40):
well. But by no means do I wantanyone to misunderstand that I
left teaching because ofburnout, because that would,
that would not be veryencouraging. So that's not the
case at all. But as I wentthrough my PhD program, of
course, you know, at some pointhaving to form your professional
(12:01):
identity as a as an aspiringhigher educator. And so I always
had the interest in mentalhealth. And it, it did take a
little bit of convincing of myadvisor at the time. But
fortunately, due to thefellowship I was on my co
(12:21):
advisor is a schoolpsychologist. And she really did
a lot to help me advocate forbeing able to focus on mental
well being and the impact ofstress and burnout on teachers
and other school personnel. Butthen also, what was not as
(12:43):
understood at the time, but isgetting a lot more attention now
is traumatic stress. And so thatis a different experience, from
the everyday stress have got alot on my plate, and I'm doing a
lot versus the impact oftraumatic stress and how that
(13:04):
can absolutely impact anindividual
Julie Cunningham (13:10):
Brandis, are there some- for everyday stress,
just I have too much on my platekind of things? If there's
teachers who are listening? Arethere some things that you
recommend that they do to- And Iknow, it's got to be in within
reason, right? Like everybodyonly has so many hours in the
day, but are there somerecommendations you can give?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (13:31):
Absolutely.
And so most of the time, thatsort of stress, the way to work
with that, you know, to one'sbenefit, it almost has a lot
more to do with internal thansomething someone can do
externally. Because a hugemisconception out there is that
someone like me is saying, Well,hey, you know, if you take
(13:55):
better care of yourself, you'renot going to burn out or you're
not going to experience anyissues. And that that would be
completely false, and alsooffensive to teachers and other
personnel who are having so manydemands placed on them. And so I
do want to make sure I emphasizethat. That is not my philosophy
(14:18):
at all. So I would be the lastperson to say, Well, hey, why
won't you go take a bath andyou'll be great. But what I do
recommend it, the part that hasto start from within. And so the
question I like to ask in, likeworkshops and sessions, whether
(14:38):
it's with student teachers orveterans out in the field is
what is your relationship, thestress because we have
relationships to things andconditions the same as we do to
people. And so, it but if youmake that parallel with
relationships with people,that's where you get into things
(14:58):
Like, how do you treat others,but also what treatment Do you
accept from others. And so inthe case of the relationship to
stress, there's so manydifferent viewpoints and and
well, relationships, the stressthat can either serve as a
benefit, or it can exacerbateour situation. So, like, if our
(15:22):
relationship distress is like,it's a badge of honor, or like
we have to be stressed out inorder to be important enough,
then that's going to beproblematic and maintain the
issue, you know, having thecourage to make sure to make
yourself a priority. So that'salso going to mean having that
(15:46):
courage to say no, honestly, alot of my suggestions aren't
necessarily popular with peoplewho supervise or train or
otherwise are connected, like ina vertical relationship to
teachers and school personnel,because I'm going to encourage
(16:08):
them to draw the line and setboundaries and be real about a
manageable workload. And, and bewilling to say, I did the best I
could. Sometimes that doesn'tgain favor with the people who
you know, and I also suspectthat it's not something to say
(16:31):
like if principals we're goingto have me talk to their staff
and whatnot, that would be areason not to have me talk to
them. Because, because, yes, beunafraid to say no, and be very
selective about what you agreeto and say yes to it. Teachers
(16:51):
also tend to be achievers. Andso there's a lifelong track
record of not just doing well,but often doing better than
their peers with like anacademic settings, but also,
like some a bit of thatcompetitive spirit. So there's
(17:13):
also the self comparison thatgoes on, that's not necessarily
good for us. And also, well,just a history of people being
happy with them. And so thatperpetuates this tendency to
agree to take on things or tofeel liketo feel like everyone
(17:35):
else's situation is yourresponsibility to maintain.
Also, teachers tend to have alot of empathy. And that's also,
you know, in addition to somebeing people pleasers, and not
wanting to lose favor withsomeone that they are
subordinate to, but also, justbecause when you don't do what
(18:01):
other people want you to do, andyou have a lot of empathy. Well,
you feel their unhappiness too.
And so, um, so when I saysetting boundaries, it Yes, it
is external in terms of notagreeing to certain things or,
or saying to someone, look, thisis what I did on like XYZ
(18:25):
situation. This is the most Icould come up with, with what
I'm balancing all at once. It islargely that, but it's also
those boundaries internally, andbeing being comfortable enough
with yourself that that you willput yourself first. Because
(18:50):
other people and I'm not evensaying people are, I guess being
mean to you or mistreating you.
I mean, I think this also comesfrom well intentioned people.
And it's just this tendency thatthe more a person does for you,
the more we expect from them,versus appreciation. So the
appreciation tends to go downwhile the expectations go up.
(19:14):
And so that's why it's soimportant to be okay with
knowing that everyone else isnot going to be happy. And if
anyone's listening if theyhappen to be working on on that
aspect of themselves working onprioritizing their own needs,
then they might find that peopleand even loved ones, they might
(19:38):
find that their response to themis not very favorable at first.
And sometimes things when youset a new boundary and work on
something to ultimately makethings better for yourself. The
conditions feel worse beforethey feel better.
Ashley O'Neil (20:00):
My goodness that- yeah, I, I had to mute myself
because I find myself likenodding along verbally with you.
And I agree. And I think thattolerating other people's maybe
disappointment's too strong aword but tolerating other
people's reaction to yourboundary, because you are you
are maybe putting someone elseout or not, you didn't get that
(20:23):
done. So someone else has to doit or someone else is gonna be
on the committee because you'renot. You have to tell it like
tolerate that discomfort, whichcan be really hard when you're
used to caring about everybody,and you got into the profession
because you care. And you wantto help and you want to be
helpful. But yeah, so so great.
So spot on.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (20:45):
Thank you.
Well, and also adding to thatpoint about, if you're not the
person agreeing to do it, thatmeans someone else has to do it,
which I know that's half thebattle is the guilt you feel
because, well, if I would justdo this, I would make someone
else's life much easier. But toadd to that, especially right
(21:05):
now, it is important to remindeveryone that, you know,
sometimes there's that feelingof "Well, I have to do it,
because there's only so manyother people, there's no one
else to do it but me." But eventhough issues like being short
staffed and whatnot are I mean,it's not something that has been
(21:29):
controllable, and it probablywill take some time to remedy
that situation. But it is alsonot solely your responsibility
to try to be two or threedifferent people, because we're
short staffed, it's just notreasonable. And it's definitely
not sustainable for the longrun.
Ashley O'Neil (21:54):
And you picking up this the the empty spots, and
taking every prep and recess andlunch break to do that. There
are things that are within yourrealm of control. And then there
are the system, the systemsproblems, right like that we
don't have an infrastructure tosupport. The school system has
been surviving, becauseeverybody's overcompensating for
(22:16):
its own systems failures. Andthat's not sustainable either.
But that's hard when you'relooking into the eyes of a six
year old or a 15 year old, it's,it's it's hard to be in that
tense space.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (22:28):
Oh, yeah.
And that is what gets those ofus as educators sometimes would
be that, as we're settingboundaries, the group of people
that we don't want to, to hinderwould be our students, because
they are only going to be inthat phase of life for that
period of time. So thatprobably, I would argue, is the
(22:52):
most challenging group toprioritize ourselves over. But
at the same time, if, if wearen't putting our needs first,
we don't have anything to giveall those many cliches now about
the oxygen mask on the airplane,or the pouring from the empty
(23:14):
cup or whatever, that those areall absolutely true.
Julie Cunningham (23:21):
I Brandis I love your how you started the
conversation regarding having arelationship with stress because
so much about teaching andeducation is built on
relationships with ourcolleagues or our students or
the parents that we work with orwhomever our audiences and I
never really thought abouthaving a relationship. I mean,
(23:42):
certainly you think about havinga relationship with yourself,
but never how my relationshipwith stress or some something
else along those lines, affectsme and how it could be depending
upon how you see yourselfhandling stress or or inviting
stress or, or reveling instress. Right? Maybe I don't
(24:03):
know, how that affects one.
That's really an interestingthing to think about.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (24:09):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and even the
part about, like stress, like,like, let's say, the reveling in
stress, another part of it toois the wind stress has become a
conditioned habit. And someaning that people who you know
(24:30):
get to a point where theyrealize that this was not the
way they wanted to live theirlife or or the way that they had
been, which by now might be fora couple of years, I mean even
before COVID If these habitshave been established, and you
realize, Well I never wanted tolive a life where I'm working
(24:51):
all the time and do very littlefor me or or find that I'm
struggling to find time with myfamily and and so forth.
Ashley O'Neil (25:00):
So you talked a little-Brandis I want to pivot
because you did bring uptraumatic stress a little bit.
And we've talked about day today stress. And I think that
it'd be fair to say that pre2020, teachers had a mix of
traumatic stress and day to daystress. And I think that 2020
has probably moved a lot morepeople toward having some very
(25:23):
traumatic teaching experiencesor personal experiences. So I
wonder if you could talk alittle bit, like define that a
little bit, and then maybe talka little bit more of what that
looks like with your research.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (25:35):
Okay, and, yes, the part about there being
more of that from the pandemiconward. Yes. Um, though, I would
also say that there was morethat before that went
unrecognized or unidentified.
But as far as traumatic stress,and what distinguishes that from
(25:57):
the stress of the day to daygrind, and such, is that
traumatic stress can result fromeither a single event, or a
complex series of traumaticevents.
Ashley O'Neil (26:15):
If you'd like to avoid the topic of school
violence in this conversation,skip to the 30 minute mark now.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (26:23):
And so the part about direct trauma, when I
say it's easy, not an easysituation, just easy to
recognize. So like in, say, likethe unfortunate case of like
school violence, that is veryeasily recognized that you and
the other students, anyoneinvolved, especially if they
(26:47):
witnessed it, but really, ifthey're, you know, in the
building at all, and got anyportion of that even hearing
things, then that is prettywidely recognized as a traumatic
experience. And you're going tohave traumatic stress, and it's
going to affect you in asignificant way. Because
(27:11):
traumatic stress is a normal andvalid response to an
extraordinary and not normalevent. And so, but something
that has been recognized inother behavioral health
settings, even like modernmedicine, like health care, even
(27:36):
law enforcement and such, butwas not given as much
recognition and education wouldbe secondary traumatic stress.
And so, by secondary traumaticstress, you are experiencing
that by getting the details ofthe traumatic event. So you
weren't present for it. But youget that information. And it
(27:59):
haunts you, or teachers andschool personnel have vicarious
traumatic stress, very similarto secondary and that it's
indirect, but the vicarious partmeaning that you are
experiencing a traumaticresponse, because of the
manifestations of another personwho has experienced trauma. So
(28:24):
let's say the student has facedtrauma, especially in cases of
complex and ongoing trauma. Andthat comes out in the form of
behavior problems, behavior thatis, perhaps verbally and
physically abusive to schoolstaff, which may be behavior
(28:46):
that that student has been onthe receiving end of, but that
exposure to all thosemanifestations, would also be a
type of traumatic stress. And soby, by recognizing that, I mean,
sometimes that is the key firststep in taking care of yourself,
(29:09):
because we'll just say, youknow, I referred to a school
shooting I know that's, youknow, pretty widely known, have
an event here in Michigan withus. And I had, I mean, just one
example would be a graduatestudent who did not teach at
that school, but she taught in anearby school and has
(29:32):
connections to that community.
And she was so apologetic aboutnot being able to come to an
optional live session andneeding an extension on
assignments needing someflexibility. And she even
included the statement. I knowthat sounds silly. And so I very
quickly did everything I couldto validate her, her condition,
(29:55):
her experience But, but I alsothink, you know, this example is
reflective of how quick we maybe to dismiss our own experience
of trauma. And in order to healfrom it, we have to really
recognize it, though and acceptthat it's okay that we are not
(30:18):
okay. Um,
Ashley O'Neil (30:23):
I was thinking about I did have a question,
Julie, before we move on, ifthat's okay, so I was thinking
about the trip stress relatedtrauma. And I think it's tough
because we're teachers are in aunique position, I think from
other jobs, where people areoften pouring out into them,
(30:44):
right, like these little peopleare these big people that are so
little people are coming intotheir, their classrooms every
day and are relying on them tobe a source of content and
structure. And so often we hear,we either hear stories that are
very traumatic, that havehappened to those students and
or we're on the receiving end ofsome behaviors that result from
the trauma in their lives. Andit's our job to kind of maintain
(31:05):
composure and to be the grownupor to have to maintain calm in
that situation to help thatstudent navigate through it. But
then there's nobody there tohelp us navigate through the
emotions that we're feeling. Atthe end of the day, I remember
going home a lot, and not reallywanting to talk at home, but
feeling really drainedemotionally, and really sad and
(31:27):
tired, because there was nobodyto help me process all of the
things that I help that childprocess, is that what you're
talking about?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (31:53):
Well, that would definitely be part of it.
And, you know, when I became ateacher, that was the first time
in my life that I startedignoring my phone, and not
taking calls, and like lettingit go to voicemail. And so you
know, and at that point, peoplewere still using the phone to
(32:13):
talk on. So that that was onefactor. But, um, but yeah, I can
remember feeling like, I justneeded to not speak to anyone
for a while, or like, I neededto not have so much output for
me, because there was the outputearlier on. Or even times I can
(32:38):
remember when my kids were inmiddle school, and you know, I
can't get these years back. Butif I could, I definitely would
have been more patient. But thelast thing I wanted to do was,
was work on homework, afterworking with kids all day, and I
loved my students, I, you know,I always had that's been the
(33:02):
best part about teaching andabout being a professor. But
after working with students allday, who, who had very
particular learning needs, andthen to go home and having
nobody, when you are theteacher, like that cliche
phrase, the buck stops here. Andthen it's like, so where does
(33:25):
the teacher go. And it doeshelp. Of course, it's always
great to have a strong socialsupport network. But at the same
time, we also have to be awarethat people who are not
educators, they don't quiteunderstand. If we have like a
social network of other teacherswho understand, then that that
(33:50):
part is absolutely great. And Ithink it is nice to lean on each
other. But we also have to makesure we understand the line
between supporting each otherand becoming just an outright
gripe session and making us feelworse and nothing getting
better.
Ashley O'Neil (34:09):
This part rings so true. On top of having a
social system that may not trulyunderstand the education system
from the inside out. We oftenhave sensitive information that
can be tangled up in our stress.
And so we lean on otherteachers, and the familiarity of
that group of fellow teacherscan mean the honesty is there,
but she's right. I was in toomany situations where I would
leave more fired up about asituation after talking to a
(34:31):
group of coworkers. And that wasno one's fault. So how do we
reframe our approach to stressin a way that is helpful to us
and maintains the privacy of ourstudents?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (34:44):
Something that I've included in my
intervention that I've, whichI've, it's got limited research
behind it, but some of thepreliminary feedback I've
received that they say hashelped is It doesn't even
involve another person. It'sjust the part about de
(35:04):
escalating ourselves. We're deescalating students all day. And
maybe at times, we're deescalating other staff. But the
part about self de escalationwould mean that after a
particularly stressful day,which seems to have gotten to be
almost every day now would bethings like doing the absolute
(35:30):
minimum that you have to do thatday, it's so important that that
after school time is restoritiveto you. I know that's hard to
sell that on, say, like parentsof young children, because you
do have responsibilities whenyou get home. But I was, I was
there before too. And into that,I would say, make sure to at
(35:54):
least, you know, include somefun family time and it not all
having to be about getting thistest done that test done, the
dishes can stay in the sink alittle bit longer. I mean, if
you have to get to where you'rejust watching it, because you
need it, there's no more cleandishes left. It's not, maybe
(36:16):
it's not ideal, but it's not theworst thing in the world when
your health needs are morepressing than the need to have a
perfectly clean house.
Julie Cunningham (36:29):
I was wondering Brandis, it seems that
and probably mental health stillis not getting enough attention.
And there certainly are notenough providers, especially I
know, for adolescents right now.
But nonetheless, it seems likemental health gets a little bit
more attention than maybe it hasover the last 10 years. And
there is there also the shift toit being okay to look for
(36:50):
services or to ask for help.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (36:54):
I believe that we have come very far. And
I say this as someone who is inthe mental health care field at
I like to get dramatic and sayat the turn of the century. But
but you know, even from say,like the early 2000s. And I
would say even from when I waslast in the classroom, 2012.
(37:17):
That was 10 years ago. And wehave really come a long way as
a, I mean, I guess at least indeveloped nations, and
recognizing mental health asbeing a factor that's just as
real, even if it doesn't show upon like a concrete assessment,
(37:38):
or you can't see a picture of itor doesn't necessarily show up
on a blood test. I mean, it cando to its connection to physical
well being. But as far asdirectly, things like
depression, anxiety, not onlyare they real, but they're also
pretty common. And so I do thinkthat things have gotten much
(38:02):
better. I would say also as ahigher ed faculty, with students
who are mostly of traditionalcollege student age, so they are
mostly Generation Z. And thatgeneration is less deterred by
stigma. And they do very well inrecognizing the legitimacy of
(38:28):
mental health. And so it youknow, and as their professor, I
support it, and like I accept ifyou have to miss class from a
mental health episode, just asmuch as if you have COVID. And
so there is that but but alsogoing a little further than
(38:51):
that, not just say like youngergeneration recognizing it, but
even people of my generationGeneration X and, and it does
seem mostly women areidentifying that more freely now
being more open about mentalhealth experiences. And I know I
(39:14):
mentioned something earlier inthe conversation about me having
lifelong mental healthchallenges. And I, I would say
that I well, I sometimes saythat I was built for these
times, so I could be present forpeople because these past few
years have definitely not beenmy hardest. And so I you know, I
(39:39):
have beliefs about it being likea purpose driven thing. But also
what I want to add is I was notalways so open about it, and I
did have a period of time whereI worried about appearing
incompetent, or like I've I havehad people who were aware of
different diagnoses I had? Oftenquestion my decision making or
(40:06):
question. I mean, even somethingas simple as showing a little
bit of agitation or aggravationwith someone, and then that
turned into, Oh, am I having anepisode? And, and no, I, I can
still be a legitimate person whoexperiences the range of
emotions that are pretty common.
And, and so I think we know thatbetter now, on the flip side of
(40:32):
it, because a response like thatis usually followed with, but we
still have far to go. And, um,you know, anytime we talk about
progress on any topic, and justlike any topic, same thing here,
we do still have far to gothere. You know, I make the
mistake very often of readingcomments on social media. And,
(40:56):
but also, that's where peopleare not being filtered. And you
see, like, how does the publicperceive these different topics,
and there are so many notsympathetic to the challenges of
educators and and I suspect thatthey not only don't have that
(41:18):
experience, but can't possiblybe close to anyone who does to
have to share that perspective,or like anyone can be a teacher
or are teachers knew what theysigned up for? No, there's so
much going on that they did notsign up for. And, and so I know
that there still is...therestill are perceptions out there.
(41:42):
And still far too many that arenot supportive of mental health
and mental well being. And,therefore can be a hindrance to
either getting help that'sneeded such as, like
professional help, or even ourown pursuits of taking care of
ourselves. It's a hindrance, ifyou let it get to you that
(42:05):
there's a number of people whostill who still confuse
vulnerability with weakness, orbeing genuine and authentic with
being too soft.
Ashley O'Neil (42:19):
I would also say it's important to - and this is
coming from my own experience, Ihad to remind myself that I'm
not my kids' teacher. And so therelationship I can have with
them can be more familiar, lessformal, less goal-oriented, more
relationship-based, right? Like,I'm invested in a different way.
And it's okay if I cash it in,and where we're not doing
(42:41):
homework tonight. And I say, youknow, what, if you want to do
it, great, but I can't be thereand help you in that right now.
Or our relationship is moreimportant. And I know that I'm
gonna tank this with you if Itried to help you with your math
problems. And I think that's,that's hard to turn that off.
Because we have that pressure.
And often times our colleaguesare teaching our kids and so
that just one more closed loopin this goldfish are like this,
(43:02):
this fishbowl bubble ofeverybody having their their
eyes on our family. But that isreally important.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (43:12):
Well, why it does matter to them. And this is
whether they have children ornot, is that education, that is
the one issue that affectseverybody. And it ultimately
does whether you're closelyconnected, because you have a
child in the local public schoolsystem, or if you never have
(43:32):
kids at all. And so ironically,even when it comes to elections,
and such, education may get somemention, but it's never like the
top issue. And, but of allissues, everybody benefits when
everyone around them, or mostpeople around them have a solid
(43:55):
education.
Ashley O'Neil (43:57):
Absolutely. And like I think about even you may
not have children, but you'reyou request services on a
regular basis from people whohave children or were children
and grew up in the educationsystem in your neighborhood.
And, and those childreneventually become the real
estate agents and the grocersand the the doctors in the
(44:17):
sanitation department. And andwe are community and that way. I
want to make sure I get a chanceto address all these things. I
think we've talked about this alittle bit, but is there
anything else you wanted to addabout how you would address
pushback or different opinions?
And maybe this time, and you candisagree with me, but maybe this
(44:38):
time, like even differentdifferent opinions from that
kind of vertical alignment sidebecause there are things that
teachers themselves can addressand then there's a bigger system
that needs to support supportthis topic too.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (44:50):
Yes, it is definitely a thing that I
definitely have a response butit's another response that I
have trouble just getting rightto the point on because it's
really loaded. Because whenpeople say that we need systemic
changes, we need better policy.
teachers and other schoolpersonnel deserve a very viable
(45:10):
work context where they canperform at their best. And, you
know, a naturally studentsgetting the best quality
possible. And I wholeheartedlyagree. And often, that would
make the biggest difference ofthe people who have the most
(45:33):
power, would listen to peopledoing the work, and make
policies and such consistentwith what the people who are
doing these things every day aresaying, because who better to
inform them. But at the sametime, just, you know, from my
perspective, as a former mentalhealth professional is that
(45:59):
ultimately, we do still have anindividual responsibility to
take care of ourselves, I wouldnever go as far as to say, a
teacher or staff member who'shaving either a miserable
experience or they don't feelwell, or they're overworked, I
would not blame it on them, ifthat's happening to them. And it
(46:24):
actually infuriates me a bitwhen I find out that people in
power, use things like self careand well being as a weapon
against their staff. Becausethat's absolutely not the
intention of those of us tryingto promote it. But as far as the
individual level, at the end ofthe day, it is the only thing
(46:47):
that someone can control. Imean, I would say we do need to
keep advocating for betterpolicies and those changes at
the top. But we also can't waiton that. And for anyone who's
working in a situation. And, youknow, like I said, it doesn't
(47:10):
have to be, like super dramatic,such as a horrible admin to work
for. I mean, you can evenexperience this if you're
working with wonderful peopleand, and taking on the demands.
And so really, after all theseyears, I mean, there's about 40
(47:30):
years of research on teacherburnout, and what this, what
this does, and it's, I mean, ofcourse, the nature of it, and
what that looks like has changedover the years. But it's been an
issue for years. And so I thinkwe're long overdue for trusting
that things are going to changein our favor. And we're going to
(47:54):
have to try and shift thisculture from the ground up.
There are also way more manyteachers, staff, members, other
educational professionals thanthere are people in charge.
Julie Cunningham (48:09):
So Brandis, then are there ways that we can
or should be or do teach thatfor pre service teachers.
Besides I know you mentionedmodeling for your students,
right, that the empathy thatthey acknowledging the trauma
that they have, and allowingthem some flexibility in terms
of assignments and things, butbesides the modeling, or in
(48:32):
addition to the modeling, isthere another way in which we
can offer them that?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (48:38):
Yes, and this is not necessarily a
popular opinion, at this point.
I do hope it can be moreunderstood. But certainly as
teacher educators, we also havea responsibility to our
contribution to the culture ofthe education field, even though
(48:58):
we're not in the K 12 schools,you know, other than if you have
a supervisory role, but but wealso have a responsibility in
what do we promote to our preservice teachers, but but also,
and this might be more of whatwe're talking about here is our
(49:21):
practices as teacher educators,and I think we need to look at
how much do we promote growingculture and external indicators
of achievement or appearancesversus the well being of our
students, candidates, and evenin like our programming, which
(49:44):
we have great programs at CMUand we put some of the best
teachers in Michigan and thewhole United States they come
from us. So we are doing a lotof things right When I say this
teacher educators overall,whether here whether elsewhere,
we do have to ask ourselves ifwe're promoting grind culture,
(50:06):
are we? are we sending a messagethat the volume of work or
stress as a badge of honor,sometimes candidates tell me
that they hear things like,like, well, oh, well, that
you're drowning in all thesedemands, because that's how the
field is. And from myperspective, just because the
(50:31):
fields that way doesn't mean wehave to promote it, we have an
opportunity to help shift theculture with by training
teachers who have a well beingmindset and prioritize their
needs, knowing that it isparamount to be able to meet the
(50:52):
needs of everyone else. And sowe can be part of the shift.
Even things like programrequirements, I, I would love
it, it can be argued that thisis my bias, because that's what
I study, or that's what I like.
(51:14):
But I'm also saying this as aresearcher who has data, who is
familiar with other researchersand their data, and even outside
of education, what I know aboutmental and emotional well being
is that if I think we probablycould scale back some of the on
(51:38):
paper requirements and make moreroom for wellbeing, promoting or
the teacher as a person, even ifwe don't talk about it in like
well being every single time,but even how they as a teacher,
are empowered to be the bestthey can even different
(52:00):
personalities of teachers andhow different ones contribute
versus trying to fit into apreconceived idea that other
people have what a teachershould be. So just focusing on
the teacher as a human being andhaving more of that and our
programming, I think, could Isay our again, I want to say,
(52:23):
I'm even saying outside of CMU,just the field overall, I think
that that would go very far. Andmaybe even force changes,
because the people coming intothe field, that's what they're
demanding.
Ashley O'Neil (52:37):
I want to end this episode with a question to
you the listener, how does thisconversation relate to the
teacher shortage that we'recurrently experiencing? Now,
before you get too far down thatroad, I want to think about
something else with you. Whenproblems show up in a community,
(52:57):
it's easy to point fingers andplace blame and to pick a reason
is easy to take our ownexperiences and declare them to
be the experiences of themajority. And when it comes to
education, it's extra trickybecause most community members
are involved or have aperception of being involved in
that system. Every adult is aformer child and will have
memories and a history withschool, which is great and not
(53:20):
the full picture. I know what itwas like to be a student in my
county in the window of timethat I attended. More
specifically, I know what it waslike to be a white female, who
loved music and did well onschool assessments in that time
in my community. So even my ownexperiences can't encompass the
reality of what everyone wasfeeling and going through at
that time. As community memberswere close enough to education
(53:42):
to feel like we get it and farenough from it to truly
understand. So it's easy to saythings like well, if we just or
if they could only spout offI'll be solutions to what we
think the problem is. So as youconsider how this conversation
relates the teacher shortage andthe future of education and what
it's like to be a student rightnow. I'm going to ask you to
consider your relationship toschool in the past and the
(54:04):
present and the future. We'dlove to hear your thoughts on
this episode. You can email usat cese at cmich.edu If you
learned something today, pleasefeel free to share this with a
friend or colleague. Teachwonder is brought to you by the
Center for Excellence in STEMEducation.
Okay, now we're recording so welcome to teach
wonder. Wonder podcast hosted byAshley O'Neill and Julie
Cunningham.
Ashley O'Neil (00:19):
When I was a young teacher, I answered emails
late at night, I wrappedstations home to cut out on the
weekends and spent much of mysummer organizing my classroom
space and researching new andeffective strategies for my
students. I would get to schoolat least an hour before the day
started. Because the small timesof prep that I had, would give
(00:42):
me time to lesson plan, orgrade, or make copies and run to
the restroom or work with astudent one on one. Never all
those things though. Andhonestly, it didn't truly touch
on the pile of work that I wouldneed to do to feel ready to lead
a group of kids for seven hoursa day. I always thought okay,
once I've been doing this for awhile, it would start to become
less consuming. And after a fewyears it did. And it didn't.
(01:05):
Because with every new class,there were new things to learn,
the more comfortable I got withmy curriculum, and the more
committees I was assigned togiven teachers to mentor new
projects to do. I've told you Iwas handling it all just fine.
And I thought that it was Ididn't mind grading papers in
the couch with a coffee. Mysocial circle was mostly
teachers, so I didn't have thecomparison of another way to be.
And then I watched one of mydearest friends leave teaching
(01:28):
after a few years. She had moretalent and passion than anybody
I knew. And the education systemis still missing out on her
skills today. The reason sheleft are hers, but they're
related to our conversationtoday. My own last year in the
classroom was as a new parent.
Our baby was on a healthjourney. And it meant that I was
missing a lot of work fordoctor's appointments and
unknowns. Our situation wouldhave been difficult in a lot of
(01:50):
professions and impossible inmany. I had a wonderfully
supportive administrator andhelpful union rep who got me to
understand the logistics ofborrowing days and asking for
extended time off. But as ateacher- it meant that I was
leaving five year olds in a veryunpredictable schedule. And I
was giving worksheets becausethey were easier to plan for
subs and stations and hands onactivities. And I was forced to
(02:12):
really look at how I madeteaching work and how the stress
and pressure I put on myself wasnot working for anybody that
year. And there were thingswithin my control that I could
have changed that would havebeen better for me and my family
and students. And there are alsothings out of my control that
heavily impacted my ability tobe effective and healthy that
year. I share this today to helphighlight the personal nature of
(02:33):
teaching and the topic ofstress. Caregiving and
relationship- based professionsrequire a lot of emotional
input. So today, we asked brandyAinslie, a faculty member here
at CMU. To talk to us more aboutthis topic. Brittany has made
much of her professionalresearch about stress and mental
health and education. A quicknote before the interview,
(02:54):
around the 25 minute mark,you'll hear a brief reference to
school violence. I'll shareinstructions just before that
section to let you know how youcan avoid it if you'd like.
...Welcome. We're really glad tobe talking with you today. And
can you start by telling us alittle bit about yourself?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (03:12):
All right, well, I'm in my fourth year as
an assistant professor ofspecial education at CMU. And I
actually I came here fromGeorgia, at Georgia State
University is where I got myPhD. And I, before doing that
was a special education teacherin Georgia, taught in middle and
(03:35):
high school settings, but mostlyhigh school for eight years. And
prior to that my career wasactually in mental health care.
And so I have some experiencewith both individual and group
therapies, but also being acommunity based instructor on
mental well beingissues.
Ashley O'Neil (03:57):
So I already have a question that's not on our
list. Because what I have aspecial ed degree as well, and I
taught for a couple of years inthe classroom. And now I
obviously work at CMU, but whatmade you your career is kind of
the foot flap, what made you gofrom the community therapy and
group therapy back into specialeducation in the classroom?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (04:19):
Well, there were actually a number of
factors that encouraged me totake that route. One of them was
at the time I had youngchildren, and I raised them
mostly by myself. And so thejobs that I was looking at at
the time of finishing mymaster's degree would have had
(04:40):
me working till like seven oreight at night. And while we
know that teachers easily canwork that late too, you can at
least you know, go home and bewith your kids if need be. But
also another thing is that oneof my biggest frustrations in
the Mental health care field andthis may have changed since then
(05:03):
it was over 20 years ago. But atthe time, it it's like, you
know, when people come totherapy, and they're not
necessarily doing well, and youknow, which is what a therapist
is there to help with. But thenwhen they start to feel a little
bit better, they tend to dropout, and then relapse. And then
(05:28):
also, with, I guess, with thingslike, time, or whatever, it
seems like people's mentalhealth pursuits, would be the
first to go in a hectic world,which would likely come up in
the conversation about ineducation as well. But one thing
(05:53):
I liked about the idea of beinga teacher was a bit more
consistency and continuity. Andthat even includes students who
tend to be absent a bit, I feltlike I still had a bit more
consistency with them, thenwith, like in clinical settings.
Ashley O'Neil (06:14):
Absolutely. That makes that makes a ton of sense.
I think we talk often thatthat's the thing we all miss the
most not being directly in theclassroom anymore is that I
don't have a whole year or twoyears or three years to build
relationships with students tobecome a constant for them. And
when he talks about when youtalk about building good
relationships with kids, itoften means time, and regular
(06:36):
touch points. And you can dokitschy one off things to kind
of build camaraderie but truerelationships take a long time.
And that's, that's hard to do.
So in addition to teaching yourclasses, I know that you have a
research area of interest or atopic that you kind of have a
lot of passion and put a lot oftime and energy into. And it
focuses a lot on teacher burnoutand develop. I'm just
summarizing so you can clarify.
(06:59):
But Teacher burnout anddeveloping resilience, thinking
about how stress and trauma playinto the classroom. What led you
to focusing on those areas? I'msure a little bit was your
community background. But canyou talk a little bit more about
that?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (07:14):
Absolutely, I can talk all day about it. So
from the beginning, you know,like you said, I did have a
different professionalbackground in working on
different topics related tomental and emotional well being.
But I probably should addthat...(fade out)
Ashley O'Neil (07:34):
Brandis has a diverse set of experiences
working in the mental healthfield that came prior to
teaching and prior to her timeas a professor. This includes
providing mental health supportfor individuals and things like
cardiac rehab group classes thatbuild new habits and stress
management for individualslooking for change, long term
support for ongoing mentalhealth concerns, and one on one
sessions and a universityclinic. And these diverse
(07:56):
experiences revealed animportant common thread.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (07:59):
one of the main things is that whether it
was someone who was beingtreated for having an adjustment
disorder, or working through apersonal crisis at that time, or
someone with a, a chronic mentalhealth issue, that the one key
(08:21):
thing to managing all of it,that they all had in common was
the importance of managingstress. And that if you manage
your stress, you go really farto manage just about any other
condition, physical, mental,emotional, and nature. And so
(08:41):
that always stuck with me. Butthen when I became a teacher, I
pretty quickly saw that theculture is very different for
education than it is for otherhuman services providers. Now,
yes, it is stressful to everyonewho provides Human Services. So
(09:02):
I definitely am not trying todiminish the stress that happens
to that to therapists to socialworkers, and so forth. But one
key difference is that ineducation that was almost
ignored, whereas in likepsychology and social work, one
(09:23):
of the big things in preparationis you must take care of your
well being in order to take careof others in the education
field. And like in schoolsettings, there wasn't a lot of
talk about issues of stress orhow it's affecting one's well
being or one's performance, orin a lot of cases, the students
(09:47):
and how it affects our students.
And so I was so surprised to seea very essential psychological
factor left out of that. Ieventually started having issues
with burnout. And it's like, Iknew better from my previous
experience, but it's like Istill forgot. I'm also I should
(10:09):
add that it's not justexperience as a, as a
professional from the psychologyfield, but also for as long as I
can remember having my ownmental health battles. And so
it, so it's professional, butit's also personal to me. And I
(10:30):
will say that, probably right,right in that last year that I
was a teacher, I didn't know itwas going to be my last year
because the opportunity topursue my PhD and go, the route
of higher education was acomplete surprise to me. But
after having some experienceswhere it had a very, very
(10:53):
deleterious effect on my wellbeing and my self esteem, but
also my physical health, and soI knew that I needed to go back
to that aspect that I was veryfamiliar with. And, you know,
start practicing again, what Ireally, truly believe in, and I
(11:16):
did start to feel better. Butthen I, then I went on to the
Ph. D. program. And so I like toadd that in, especially when I'm
working in a professionaldevelopment setting. Because if
I'm working on this topic withpeople, I tried to like, like, I
want to relate to them. And thatyes, I have experienced it as
(11:40):
well. But by no means do I wantanyone to misunderstand that I
left teaching because ofburnout, because that would,
that would not be veryencouraging. So that's not the
case at all. But as I wentthrough my PhD program, of
course, you know, at some pointhaving to form your professional
(12:01):
identity as a as an aspiringhigher educator. And so I always
had the interest in mentalhealth. And it, it did take a
little bit of convincing of myadvisor at the time. But
fortunately, due to thefellowship I was on my co
(12:21):
advisor is a schoolpsychologist. And she really did
a lot to help me advocate forbeing able to focus on mental
well being and the impact ofstress and burnout on teachers
and other school personnel. Butthen also, what was not as
(12:43):
understood at the time, but isgetting a lot more attention now
is traumatic stress. And so thatis a different experience, from
the everyday stress have got alot on my plate, and I'm doing a
lot versus the impact oftraumatic stress and how that
(13:04):
can absolutely impact anindividual
Julie Cunningham (13:10):
Brandis, are there some- for everyday stress,
just I have too much on my platekind of things? If there's
teachers who are listening? Arethere some things that you
recommend that they do to- And Iknow, it's got to be in within
reason, right? Like everybodyonly has so many hours in the
day, but are there somerecommendations you can give?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (13:31):
Absolutely.
And so most of the time, thatsort of stress, the way to work
with that, you know, to one'sbenefit, it almost has a lot
more to do with internal thansomething someone can do
externally. Because a hugemisconception out there is that
someone like me is saying, Well,hey, you know, if you take
(13:55):
better care of yourself, you'renot going to burn out or you're
not going to experience anyissues. And that that would be
completely false, and alsooffensive to teachers and other
personnel who are having so manydemands placed on them. And so I
do want to make sure I emphasizethat. That is not my philosophy
(14:18):
at all. So I would be the lastperson to say, Well, hey, why
won't you go take a bath andyou'll be great. But what I do
recommend it, the part that hasto start from within. And so the
question I like to ask in, likeworkshops and sessions, whether
(14:38):
it's with student teachers orveterans out in the field is
what is your relationship, thestress because we have
relationships to things andconditions the same as we do to
people. And so, it but if youmake that parallel with
relationships with people,that's where you get into things
(14:58):
Like, how do you treat others,but also what treatment Do you
accept from others. And so inthe case of the relationship to
stress, there's so manydifferent viewpoints and and
well, relationships, the stressthat can either serve as a
benefit, or it can exacerbateour situation. So, like, if our
(15:22):
relationship distress is like,it's a badge of honor, or like
we have to be stressed out inorder to be important enough,
then that's going to beproblematic and maintain the
issue, you know, having thecourage to make sure to make
yourself a priority. So that'salso going to mean having that
(15:46):
courage to say no, honestly, alot of my suggestions aren't
necessarily popular with peoplewho supervise or train or
otherwise are connected, like ina vertical relationship to
teachers and school personnel,because I'm going to encourage
(16:08):
them to draw the line and setboundaries and be real about a
manageable workload. And, and bewilling to say, I did the best I
could. Sometimes that doesn'tgain favor with the people who
you know, and I also suspectthat it's not something to say
(16:31):
like if principals we're goingto have me talk to their staff
and whatnot, that would be areason not to have me talk to
them. Because, because, yes, beunafraid to say no, and be very
selective about what you agreeto and say yes to it. Teachers
(16:51):
also tend to be achievers. Andso there's a lifelong track
record of not just doing well,but often doing better than
their peers with like anacademic settings, but also,
like some a bit of thatcompetitive spirit. So there's
(17:13):
also the self comparison thatgoes on, that's not necessarily
good for us. And also, well,just a history of people being
happy with them. And so thatperpetuates this tendency to
agree to take on things or tofeel liketo feel like everyone
(17:35):
else's situation is yourresponsibility to maintain.
Also, teachers tend to have alot of empathy. And that's also,
you know, in addition to somebeing people pleasers, and not
wanting to lose favor withsomeone that they are
subordinate to, but also, justbecause when you don't do what
(18:01):
other people want you to do, andyou have a lot of empathy. Well,
you feel their unhappiness too.
And so, um, so when I saysetting boundaries, it Yes, it
is external in terms of notagreeing to certain things or,
or saying to someone, look, thisis what I did on like XYZ
(18:25):
situation. This is the most Icould come up with, with what
I'm balancing all at once. It islargely that, but it's also
those boundaries internally, andbeing being comfortable enough
with yourself that that you willput yourself first. Because
(18:50):
other people and I'm not evensaying people are, I guess being
mean to you or mistreating you.
I mean, I think this also comesfrom well intentioned people.
And it's just this tendency thatthe more a person does for you,
the more we expect from them,versus appreciation. So the
appreciation tends to go downwhile the expectations go up.
(19:14):
And so that's why it's soimportant to be okay with
knowing that everyone else isnot going to be happy. And if
anyone's listening if theyhappen to be working on on that
aspect of themselves working onprioritizing their own needs,
then they might find that peopleand even loved ones, they might
(19:38):
find that their response to themis not very favorable at first.
And sometimes things when youset a new boundary and work on
something to ultimately makethings better for yourself. The
conditions feel worse beforethey feel better.
Ashley O'Neil (20:00):
My goodness that- yeah, I, I had to mute myself
because I find myself likenodding along verbally with you.
And I agree. And I think thattolerating other people's maybe
disappointment's too strong aword but tolerating other
people's reaction to yourboundary, because you are you
are maybe putting someone elseout or not, you didn't get that
(20:23):
done. So someone else has to doit or someone else is gonna be
on the committee because you'renot. You have to tell it like
tolerate that discomfort, whichcan be really hard when you're
used to caring about everybody,and you got into the profession
because you care. And you wantto help and you want to be
helpful. But yeah, so so great.
So spot on.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (20:45):
Thank you.
Well, and also adding to thatpoint about, if you're not the
person agreeing to do it, thatmeans someone else has to do it,
which I know that's half thebattle is the guilt you feel
because, well, if I would justdo this, I would make someone
else's life much easier. But toadd to that, especially right
(21:05):
now, it is important to remindeveryone that, you know,
sometimes there's that feelingof "Well, I have to do it,
because there's only so manyother people, there's no one
else to do it but me." But eventhough issues like being short
staffed and whatnot are I mean,it's not something that has been
(21:29):
controllable, and it probablywill take some time to remedy
that situation. But it is alsonot solely your responsibility
to try to be two or threedifferent people, because we're
short staffed, it's just notreasonable. And it's definitely
not sustainable for the longrun.
Ashley O'Neil (21:54):
And you picking up this the the empty spots, and
taking every prep and recess andlunch break to do that. There
are things that are within yourrealm of control. And then there
are the system, the systemsproblems, right like that we
don't have an infrastructure tosupport. The school system has
been surviving, becauseeverybody's overcompensating for
(22:16):
its own systems failures. Andthat's not sustainable either.
But that's hard when you'relooking into the eyes of a six
year old or a 15 year old, it's,it's it's hard to be in that
tense space.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (22:28):
Oh, yeah.
And that is what gets those ofus as educators sometimes would
be that, as we're settingboundaries, the group of people
that we don't want to, to hinderwould be our students, because
they are only going to be inthat phase of life for that
period of time. So thatprobably, I would argue, is the
(22:52):
most challenging group toprioritize ourselves over. But
at the same time, if, if wearen't putting our needs first,
we don't have anything to giveall those many cliches now about
the oxygen mask on the airplane,or the pouring from the empty
(23:14):
cup or whatever, that those areall absolutely true.
Julie Cunningham (23:21):
I Brandis I love your how you started the
conversation regarding having arelationship with stress because
so much about teaching andeducation is built on
relationships with ourcolleagues or our students or
the parents that we work with orwhomever our audiences and I
never really thought abouthaving a relationship. I mean,
(23:42):
certainly you think about havinga relationship with yourself,
but never how my relationshipwith stress or some something
else along those lines, affectsme and how it could be depending
upon how you see yourselfhandling stress or or inviting
stress or, or reveling instress. Right? Maybe I don't
(24:03):
know, how that affects one.
That's really an interestingthing to think about.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (24:09):
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and even the
part about, like stress, like,like, let's say, the reveling in
stress, another part of it toois the wind stress has become a
conditioned habit. And someaning that people who you know
(24:30):
get to a point where theyrealize that this was not the
way they wanted to live theirlife or or the way that they had
been, which by now might be fora couple of years, I mean even
before COVID If these habitshave been established, and you
realize, Well I never wanted tolive a life where I'm working
(24:51):
all the time and do very littlefor me or or find that I'm
struggling to find time with myfamily and and so forth.
Ashley O'Neil (25:00):
So you talked a little-Brandis I want to pivot
because you did bring uptraumatic stress a little bit.
And we've talked about day today stress. And I think that
it'd be fair to say that pre2020, teachers had a mix of
traumatic stress and day to daystress. And I think that 2020
has probably moved a lot morepeople toward having some very
(25:23):
traumatic teaching experiencesor personal experiences. So I
wonder if you could talk alittle bit, like define that a
little bit, and then maybe talka little bit more of what that
looks like with your research.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (25:35):
Okay, and, yes, the part about there being
more of that from the pandemiconward. Yes. Um, though, I would
also say that there was morethat before that went
unrecognized or unidentified.
But as far as traumatic stress,and what distinguishes that from
(25:57):
the stress of the day to daygrind, and such, is that
traumatic stress can result fromeither a single event, or a
complex series of traumaticevents.
Ashley O'Neil (26:15):
If you'd like to avoid the topic of school
violence in this conversation,skip to the 30 minute mark now.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (26:23):
And so the part about direct trauma, when I
say it's easy, not an easysituation, just easy to
recognize. So like in, say, likethe unfortunate case of like
school violence, that is veryeasily recognized that you and
the other students, anyoneinvolved, especially if they
(26:47):
witnessed it, but really, ifthey're, you know, in the
building at all, and got anyportion of that even hearing
things, then that is prettywidely recognized as a traumatic
experience. And you're going tohave traumatic stress, and it's
going to affect you in asignificant way. Because
(27:11):
traumatic stress is a normal andvalid response to an
extraordinary and not normalevent. And so, but something
that has been recognized inother behavioral health
settings, even like modernmedicine, like health care, even
(27:36):
law enforcement and such, butwas not given as much
recognition and education wouldbe secondary traumatic stress.
And so, by secondary traumaticstress, you are experiencing
that by getting the details ofthe traumatic event. So you
weren't present for it. But youget that information. And it
(27:59):
haunts you, or teachers andschool personnel have vicarious
traumatic stress, very similarto secondary and that it's
indirect, but the vicarious partmeaning that you are
experiencing a traumaticresponse, because of the
manifestations of another personwho has experienced trauma. So
(28:24):
let's say the student has facedtrauma, especially in cases of
complex and ongoing trauma. Andthat comes out in the form of
behavior problems, behavior thatis, perhaps verbally and
physically abusive to schoolstaff, which may be behavior
(28:46):
that that student has been onthe receiving end of, but that
exposure to all thosemanifestations, would also be a
type of traumatic stress. And soby, by recognizing that, I mean,
sometimes that is the key firststep in taking care of yourself,
(29:09):
because we'll just say, youknow, I referred to a school
shooting I know that's, youknow, pretty widely known, have
an event here in Michigan withus. And I had, I mean, just one
example would be a graduatestudent who did not teach at
that school, but she taught in anearby school and has
(29:32):
connections to that community.
And she was so apologetic aboutnot being able to come to an
optional live session andneeding an extension on
assignments needing someflexibility. And she even
included the statement. I knowthat sounds silly. And so I very
quickly did everything I couldto validate her, her condition,
(29:55):
her experience But, but I alsothink, you know, this example is
reflective of how quick we maybe to dismiss our own experience
of trauma. And in order to healfrom it, we have to really
recognize it, though and acceptthat it's okay that we are not
(30:18):
okay. Um,
Ashley O'Neil (30:23):
I was thinking about I did have a question,
Julie, before we move on, ifthat's okay, so I was thinking
about the trip stress relatedtrauma. And I think it's tough
because we're teachers are in aunique position, I think from
other jobs, where people areoften pouring out into them,
(30:44):
right, like these little peopleare these big people that are so
little people are coming intotheir, their classrooms every
day and are relying on them tobe a source of content and
structure. And so often we hear,we either hear stories that are
very traumatic, that havehappened to those students and
or we're on the receiving end ofsome behaviors that result from
the trauma in their lives. Andit's our job to kind of maintain
(31:05):
composure and to be the grownupor to have to maintain calm in
that situation to help thatstudent navigate through it. But
then there's nobody there tohelp us navigate through the
emotions that we're feeling. Atthe end of the day, I remember
going home a lot, and not reallywanting to talk at home, but
feeling really drainedemotionally, and really sad and
(31:27):
tired, because there was nobodyto help me process all of the
things that I help that childprocess, is that what you're
talking about?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (31:53):
Well, that would definitely be part of it.
And, you know, when I became ateacher, that was the first time
in my life that I startedignoring my phone, and not
taking calls, and like lettingit go to voicemail. And so you
know, and at that point, peoplewere still using the phone to
(32:13):
talk on. So that that was onefactor. But, um, but yeah, I can
remember feeling like, I justneeded to not speak to anyone
for a while, or like, I neededto not have so much output for
me, because there was the outputearlier on. Or even times I can
(32:38):
remember when my kids were inmiddle school, and you know, I
can't get these years back. Butif I could, I definitely would
have been more patient. But thelast thing I wanted to do was,
was work on homework, afterworking with kids all day, and I
loved my students, I, you know,I always had that's been the
(33:02):
best part about teaching andabout being a professor. But
after working with students allday, who, who had very
particular learning needs, andthen to go home and having
nobody, when you are theteacher, like that cliche
phrase, the buck stops here. Andthen it's like, so where does
(33:25):
the teacher go. And it doeshelp. Of course, it's always
great to have a strong socialsupport network. But at the same
time, we also have to be awarethat people who are not
educators, they don't quiteunderstand. If we have like a
social network of other teacherswho understand, then that that
(33:50):
part is absolutely great. And Ithink it is nice to lean on each
other. But we also have to makesure we understand the line
between supporting each otherand becoming just an outright
gripe session and making us feelworse and nothing getting
better.
Ashley O'Neil (34:09):
This part rings so true. On top of having a
social system that may not trulyunderstand the education system
from the inside out. We oftenhave sensitive information that
can be tangled up in our stress.
And so we lean on otherteachers, and the familiarity of
that group of fellow teacherscan mean the honesty is there,
but she's right. I was in toomany situations where I would
leave more fired up about asituation after talking to a
(34:31):
group of coworkers. And that wasno one's fault. So how do we
reframe our approach to stressin a way that is helpful to us
and maintains the privacy of ourstudents?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (34:44):
Something that I've included in my
intervention that I've, whichI've, it's got limited research
behind it, but some of thepreliminary feedback I've
received that they say hashelped is It doesn't even
involve another person. It'sjust the part about de
(35:04):
escalating ourselves. We're deescalating students all day. And
maybe at times, we're deescalating other staff. But the
part about self de escalationwould mean that after a
particularly stressful day,which seems to have gotten to be
almost every day now would bethings like doing the absolute
(35:30):
minimum that you have to do thatday, it's so important that that
after school time is restoritiveto you. I know that's hard to
sell that on, say, like parentsof young children, because you
do have responsibilities whenyou get home. But I was, I was
there before too. And into that,I would say, make sure to at
(35:54):
least, you know, include somefun family time and it not all
having to be about getting thistest done that test done, the
dishes can stay in the sink alittle bit longer. I mean, if
you have to get to where you'rejust watching it, because you
need it, there's no more cleandishes left. It's not, maybe
(36:16):
it's not ideal, but it's not theworst thing in the world when
your health needs are morepressing than the need to have a
perfectly clean house.
Julie Cunningham (36:29):
I was wondering Brandis, it seems that
and probably mental health stillis not getting enough attention.
And there certainly are notenough providers, especially I
know, for adolescents right now.
But nonetheless, it seems likemental health gets a little bit
more attention than maybe it hasover the last 10 years. And
there is there also the shift toit being okay to look for
(36:50):
services or to ask for help.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (36:54):
I believe that we have come very far. And
I say this as someone who is inthe mental health care field at
I like to get dramatic and sayat the turn of the century. But
but you know, even from say,like the early 2000s. And I
would say even from when I waslast in the classroom, 2012.
(37:17):
That was 10 years ago. And wehave really come a long way as
a, I mean, I guess at least indeveloped nations, and
recognizing mental health asbeing a factor that's just as
real, even if it doesn't show upon like a concrete assessment,
(37:38):
or you can't see a picture of itor doesn't necessarily show up
on a blood test. I mean, it cando to its connection to physical
well being. But as far asdirectly, things like
depression, anxiety, not onlyare they real, but they're also
pretty common. And so I do thinkthat things have gotten much
(38:02):
better. I would say also as ahigher ed faculty, with students
who are mostly of traditionalcollege student age, so they are
mostly Generation Z. And thatgeneration is less deterred by
stigma. And they do very well inrecognizing the legitimacy of
(38:28):
mental health. And so it youknow, and as their professor, I
support it, and like I accept ifyou have to miss class from a
mental health episode, just asmuch as if you have COVID. And
so there is that but but alsogoing a little further than
(38:51):
that, not just say like youngergeneration recognizing it, but
even people of my generationGeneration X and, and it does
seem mostly women areidentifying that more freely now
being more open about mentalhealth experiences. And I know I
(39:14):
mentioned something earlier inthe conversation about me having
lifelong mental healthchallenges. And I, I would say
that I well, I sometimes saythat I was built for these
times, so I could be present forpeople because these past few
years have definitely not beenmy hardest. And so I you know, I
(39:39):
have beliefs about it being likea purpose driven thing. But also
what I want to add is I was notalways so open about it, and I
did have a period of time whereI worried about appearing
incompetent, or like I've I havehad people who were aware of
different diagnoses I had? Oftenquestion my decision making or
(40:06):
question. I mean, even somethingas simple as showing a little
bit of agitation or aggravationwith someone, and then that
turned into, Oh, am I having anepisode? And, and no, I, I can
still be a legitimate person whoexperiences the range of
emotions that are pretty common.
And, and so I think we know thatbetter now, on the flip side of
(40:32):
it, because a response like thatis usually followed with, but we
still have far to go. And, um,you know, anytime we talk about
progress on any topic, and justlike any topic, same thing here,
we do still have far to gothere. You know, I make the
mistake very often of readingcomments on social media. And,
(40:56):
but also, that's where peopleare not being filtered. And you
see, like, how does the publicperceive these different topics,
and there are so many notsympathetic to the challenges of
educators and and I suspect thatthey not only don't have that
(41:18):
experience, but can't possiblybe close to anyone who does to
have to share that perspective,or like anyone can be a teacher
or are teachers knew what theysigned up for? No, there's so
much going on that they did notsign up for. And, and so I know
that there still is...therestill are perceptions out there.
(41:42):
And still far too many that arenot supportive of mental health
and mental well being. And,therefore can be a hindrance to
either getting help that'sneeded such as, like
professional help, or even ourown pursuits of taking care of
ourselves. It's a hindrance, ifyou let it get to you that
(42:05):
there's a number of people whostill who still confuse
vulnerability with weakness, orbeing genuine and authentic with
being too soft.
Ashley O'Neil (42:19):
I would also say it's important to - and this is
coming from my own experience, Ihad to remind myself that I'm
not my kids' teacher. And so therelationship I can have with
them can be more familiar, lessformal, less goal-oriented, more
relationship-based, right? Like,I'm invested in a different way.
And it's okay if I cash it in,and where we're not doing
(42:41):
homework tonight. And I say, youknow, what, if you want to do
it, great, but I can't be thereand help you in that right now.
Or our relationship is moreimportant. And I know that I'm
gonna tank this with you if Itried to help you with your math
problems. And I think that's,that's hard to turn that off.
Because we have that pressure.
And often times our colleaguesare teaching our kids and so
that just one more closed loopin this goldfish are like this,
(43:02):
this fishbowl bubble ofeverybody having their their
eyes on our family. But that isreally important.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (43:12):
Well, why it does matter to them. And this is
whether they have children ornot, is that education, that is
the one issue that affectseverybody. And it ultimately
does whether you're closelyconnected, because you have a
child in the local public schoolsystem, or if you never have
(43:32):
kids at all. And so ironically,even when it comes to elections,
and such, education may get somemention, but it's never like the
top issue. And, but of allissues, everybody benefits when
everyone around them, or mostpeople around them have a solid
(43:55):
education.
Ashley O'Neil (43:57):
Absolutely. And like I think about even you may
not have children, but you'reyou request services on a
regular basis from people whohave children or were children
and grew up in the educationsystem in your neighborhood.
And, and those childreneventually become the real
estate agents and the grocersand the the doctors in the
(44:17):
sanitation department. And andwe are community and that way. I
want to make sure I get a chanceto address all these things. I
think we've talked about this alittle bit, but is there
anything else you wanted to addabout how you would address
pushback or different opinions?
And maybe this time, and you candisagree with me, but maybe this
(44:38):
time, like even differentdifferent opinions from that
kind of vertical alignment sidebecause there are things that
teachers themselves can addressand then there's a bigger system
that needs to support supportthis topic too.
Dr. Brandis Ansley (44:50):
Yes, it is definitely a thing that I
definitely have a response butit's another response that I
have trouble just getting rightto the point on because it's
really loaded. Because whenpeople say that we need systemic
changes, we need better policy.
teachers and other schoolpersonnel deserve a very viable
(45:10):
work context where they canperform at their best. And, you
know, a naturally studentsgetting the best quality
possible. And I wholeheartedlyagree. And often, that would
make the biggest difference ofthe people who have the most
(45:33):
power, would listen to peopledoing the work, and make
policies and such consistentwith what the people who are
doing these things every day aresaying, because who better to
inform them. But at the sametime, just, you know, from my
perspective, as a former mentalhealth professional is that
(45:59):
ultimately, we do still have anindividual responsibility to
take care of ourselves, I wouldnever go as far as to say, a
teacher or staff member who'shaving either a miserable
experience or they don't feelwell, or they're overworked, I
would not blame it on them, ifthat's happening to them. And it
(46:24):
actually infuriates me a bitwhen I find out that people in
power, use things like self careand well being as a weapon
against their staff. Becausethat's absolutely not the
intention of those of us tryingto promote it. But as far as the
individual level, at the end ofthe day, it is the only thing
(46:47):
that someone can control. Imean, I would say we do need to
keep advocating for betterpolicies and those changes at
the top. But we also can't waiton that. And for anyone who's
working in a situation. And, youknow, like I said, it doesn't
(47:10):
have to be, like super dramatic,such as a horrible admin to work
for. I mean, you can evenexperience this if you're
working with wonderful peopleand, and taking on the demands.
And so really, after all theseyears, I mean, there's about 40
(47:30):
years of research on teacherburnout, and what this, what
this does, and it's, I mean, ofcourse, the nature of it, and
what that looks like has changedover the years. But it's been an
issue for years. And so I thinkwe're long overdue for trusting
that things are going to changein our favor. And we're going to
(47:54):
have to try and shift thisculture from the ground up.
There are also way more manyteachers, staff, members, other
educational professionals thanthere are people in charge.
Julie Cunningham (48:09):
So Brandis, then are there ways that we can
or should be or do teach thatfor pre service teachers.
Besides I know you mentionedmodeling for your students,
right, that the empathy thatthey acknowledging the trauma
that they have, and allowingthem some flexibility in terms
of assignments and things, butbesides the modeling, or in
(48:32):
addition to the modeling, isthere another way in which we
can offer them that?
Dr. Brandis Ansley (48:38):
Yes, and this is not necessarily a
popular opinion, at this point.
I do hope it can be moreunderstood. But certainly as
teacher educators, we also havea responsibility to our
contribution to the culture ofthe education field, even though
(48:58):
we're not in the K 12 schools,you know, other than if you have
a supervisory role, but but wealso have a responsibility in
what do we promote to our preservice teachers, but but also,
and this might be more of whatwe're talking about here is our
(49:21):
practices as teacher educators,and I think we need to look at
how much do we promote growingculture and external indicators
of achievement or appearancesversus the well being of our
students, candidates, and evenin like our programming, which
(49:44):
we have great programs at CMUand we put some of the best
teachers in Michigan and thewhole United States they come
from us. So we are doing a lotof things right When I say this
teacher educators overall,whether here whether elsewhere,
we do have to ask ourselves ifwe're promoting grind culture,
(50:06):
are we? are we sending a messagethat the volume of work or
stress as a badge of honor,sometimes candidates tell me
that they hear things like,like, well, oh, well, that
you're drowning in all thesedemands, because that's how the
field is. And from myperspective, just because the
(50:31):
fields that way doesn't mean wehave to promote it, we have an
opportunity to help shift theculture with by training
teachers who have a well beingmindset and prioritize their
needs, knowing that it isparamount to be able to meet the
(50:52):
needs of everyone else. And sowe can be part of the shift.
Even things like programrequirements, I, I would love
it, it can be argued that thisis my bias, because that's what
I study, or that's what I like.
(51:14):
But I'm also saying this as aresearcher who has data, who is
familiar with other researchersand their data, and even outside
of education, what I know aboutmental and emotional well being
is that if I think we probablycould scale back some of the on
(51:38):
paper requirements and make moreroom for wellbeing, promoting or
the teacher as a person, even ifwe don't talk about it in like
well being every single time,but even how they as a teacher,
are empowered to be the bestthey can even different
(52:00):
personalities of teachers andhow different ones contribute
versus trying to fit into apreconceived idea that other
people have what a teachershould be. So just focusing on
the teacher as a human being andhaving more of that and our
programming, I think, could Isay our again, I want to say,
(52:23):
I'm even saying outside of CMU,just the field overall, I think
that that would go very far. Andmaybe even force changes,
because the people coming intothe field, that's what they're
demanding.
Ashley O'Neil (52:37):
I want to end this episode with a question to
you the listener, how does thisconversation relate to the
teacher shortage that we'recurrently experiencing? Now,
before you get too far down thatroad, I want to think about
something else with you. Whenproblems show up in a community,
(52:57):
it's easy to point fingers andplace blame and to pick a reason
is easy to take our ownexperiences and declare them to
be the experiences of themajority. And when it comes to
education, it's extra trickybecause most community members
are involved or have aperception of being involved in
that system. Every adult is aformer child and will have
memories and a history withschool, which is great and not
(53:20):
the full picture. I know what itwas like to be a student in my
county in the window of timethat I attended. More
specifically, I know what it waslike to be a white female, who
loved music and did well onschool assessments in that time
in my community. So even my ownexperiences can't encompass the
reality of what everyone wasfeeling and going through at
that time. As community memberswere close enough to education
(53:42):
to feel like we get it and farenough from it to truly
understand. So it's easy to saythings like well, if we just or
if they could only spout offI'll be solutions to what we
think the problem is. So as youconsider how this conversation
relates the teacher shortage andthe future of education and what
it's like to be a student rightnow. I'm going to ask you to
consider your relationship toschool in the past and the
(54:04):
present and the future. We'dlove to hear your thoughts on
this episode. You can email usat cese at cmich.edu If you
learned something today, pleasefeel free to share this with a
friend or colleague. Teachwonder is brought to you by the
Center for Excellence in STEMEducation.
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