Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to the
Changing State of Talent
Acquisition, where your hosts,graham Thornton and Martin Credd
, share their unfiltered takeson what's happening in the world
of talent acquisition today.
Each week brings new guests whoshare their stories on the
tools, trends and technologiescurrently impacting the changing
state of talent acquisition.
Have feedback or want to jointhe show?
(00:21):
Head on over to changestateio.
And now on to this week'sepisode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome back to
another episode of the Changing
State of Talent ActivationPodcast.
You know this week we're goingto take a little bit of a
different approach.
You know we've had a number offolks reach out, you know,
asking us to wax poetic on howwe approach HR tech, selection,
recruitment process optimization, what's programmatic
advertising, and so we're goingto drop a series of shorter
(00:50):
episodes really focused onbroader education on how we
approach specific tools in ourmetaphorical toolkit in support
of Change State as a recruitmentmarketing agency.
So today's episode is going tobe a little bit shorter in
nature and we're going to diveinto what is an employer brand,
what's an EVP, how are theydifferent?
You know, really focused onbetter understanding how we
(01:13):
approach and how companiesapproach some of the tools in
the metaphorical toolkit forrecruitment marketing.
So on to this week's episode.
So let's get into it, marty.
So we'll start with.
It's probably not the softball,but what is an employer brand
to you, marty?
What's an EVP, maybe?
You know.
Let's explore how they'redifferent.
(01:33):
So, what's an employer brand?
Go, you're up.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Great question.
Yeah, I think these terms getconfused a lot.
So I think it's a helpful placeto start, because I think
having a clear understanding anddefinitions about these terms
and the differences between themhelps us figure out how to
define an EVP.
So generally we think of anemployer brand as sort of a
company's reputation as anemployer.
That's kind of anoversimplification, but that's
(02:02):
the idea and I think the pointthere is.
Reputation is perception-based.
It exists in the minds of youremployees, current and past
employees, as well as candidatesand the wider communities that
the business operates in.
So we always remind our clientsthat everyone has an employer
brand, whether you're payingattention to it or not.
And in fact you don't reallyown your employer brand, but you
can help kind of curate it ormanage it by participating in
(02:25):
that conversation withcandidates and employees.
Which brings us to what an EVPis, which is certainly part of
that ongoing conversation.
But it's really just acrystallization or distillation
of the unique why behind whysomeone would choose to work for
your company.
And we encourage our clientswhen we engage in these projects
(02:45):
, to really engage in thatproject.
To simplify it, because I thinkwe've all seen these very
extensive PowerPoint decks thathave all these frameworks and
pillars and all these greatthings on them.
But then if you just stopsomeone in the elevator and say,
hey, what's our EVP?
Nobody knows what to saybecause they'd have to pull out
that slide, and we think itshould be.
(03:05):
If it's done right, you shouldbe able to summarize it in one
or two sentences.
Of course you're not going toget all the details in there,
but you should be able to have asuccinct answer to the question
of why should someone work here?
So hopefully that makes alittle bit of sense.
The EVP is kind of ourcontribution to that
conversation.
We're certainly trying to moldthe perceptions that people have
, but ultimately it's what theythink we are as an employer and
(03:28):
that's what the brand represents.
So how?
Speaker 2 (03:30):
do you think about
your employer brand, or how
should companies think of theiremployer brand as it relates to
their consumer brand?
Is this something where youknow?
I guess this is a leadingquestion.
I know how you feel.
Are these two different things?
Are the consumer brand andemployer brand related?
(03:51):
What should that look like orwhat does that?
Speaker 3 (03:52):
look like in most
organizations.
Yeah, I think one of thechallenges in this space is that
there's a lot of differentwords and nomenclature that
aren't necessarily being usedconsistently and people can get
worked up about thosedifferences and really what's
important, of course, is theideas themselves, not what we're
calling them.
So I think it is just worthpointing out to everyone who may
not be familiar.
Employer brand is a pretty newconcept.
(04:12):
It's been around I don't know,20, 30 years in the business
world and the idea of brandingmore broadly has been around
probably since anyone startedselling any products on the
street side.
It's just this concept of what'syour reputation as a company in
a consumer-facing context, andI tend to think of it as there's
(04:34):
one brand for the organization.
That has different faces andthe most important face is
probably the consumer-facingbrand.
But we also have a reputationto our talent pools and our
employees and our candidates,and that's just sort of another
face of that master brand, ifyou will.
Now I think a lot of peoplethink of employer brand as
something that's a separateentity altogether and, to my
(04:54):
point earlier, I don't think itreally matters.
If you want to think of it as aseparate entity, that's fine,
but certainly when we arebuilding out an EVP, the
conversation involves the folkson the consumer brand side of
the house and we really pushhard to make sure that there's a
nice intimate connectionbetween what the consumer brand
represents and what we're sayingto our employer brand facing
audiences, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, I think that's
a great segue.
So you Well, I think that's agreat segue.
So I want to talk about how weapproach brand projects, how we
think about defining an EVP.
But before we get to that,marty, so what do you think
makes a strong EVP?
What are some of theconsiderations that companies
should be thinking about whenthey're thinking about what goes
into an authentic, strong EVP?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Yeah, I think that's
a great question.
Obviously, most people wouldprobably agree with my general
definition of an EVP.
I think they might phrase it indifferent ways or they might
add more complexity to it.
But I don't think many peoplewould balk at the notion that an
EVP is an answer to thisquestion of why should you work
for this company.
And once you start there, thenpeople kind of branch off.
(06:01):
There's various differentframeworks that people use to
try to define an EVP, and againI just want to say that there's
not like one right or wrongframework.
What's most important is thecore ideas, and so that brings
up this question of what makes astrong EVP.
As we're engaging with ourclients to build these out, what
are the criteria that we use todetermine whether we've found a
(06:22):
good one?
And we think of it in terms offour big ideas.
To be an effective EVP, to bean effective answer to that
question of why should you workfor us, the EVP needs to be
number one, relevant, which isto say it needs to be appealing
to the external talent market.
You know, I think this is apretty obvious statement.
We can say things aboutourselves, but if nobody cares,
(06:45):
we've kind of you know, stalledbefore we even got out of the
gate.
So that's an obvious one.
But more than that, it needs tobe credible, which is to say,
we have to be able to actuallyown that.
You know, people have to beable to believe us when we say
that this is why we're so great,this is why you should work for
us, and we need to be able tosupport that with reasons to
believe.
So you say that you're a superinnovative company great, but
(07:07):
you got to be prepared to followit up with a why and some
examples.
And that's what we mean bycredibility.
The number three big idea isthat it also needs to be
differentiating.
So we could say something tothe talent market that's
extremely appealing and it'scredible.
People believe that we can sayit.
But if every other employer intown can also make the same
claim, it doesn't also do usmuch good in terms of getting a
(07:27):
competitive advantage.
So we want our EVP to besomewhat different.
You know, ideally it would becompletely unique, which is to
say one of a kind that's hard todo.
But be completely unique, whichis to say one of a kind that's
hard to do, but at the veryleast, we don't want to be
putting out the exact sameanswer to that.
Why question as everyone else?
So that's what we mean bydifferentiating.
(07:48):
And then, last, certainly notleast, is this idea of
authenticity.
I kind of wish we had adifferent word for it because I
feel like that word has gottenoverused in the space, but it is
a very core and important ideaand it's just this notion that
our EVP is aligned with whatemployees say about the employee
experience.
So, again, if we say that weare a company that really values
work-life balance and we'resuch a great place to work for,
(08:10):
having a healthy balance likethat, it needs to actually be
something that our employeeswould also agree is true about
us.
Otherwise we get into thisrealm of aspirational EVPs,
which, you know, it's okay to beaspirational to some extent,
but you can't be so far afieldfrom what actual employees say
about your experience.
Otherwise it's just a recipe,of course, for disappointment.
(08:31):
So, yeah, the big ideas thereagain are credibility, or rather
, I'm sorry, relevance or appeal, credibility and
differentiation and authenticity.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yeah, I think that's
great and so all right.
When we're looking at thosefour pillars right, or four
components, how do we getstarted?
So, if we're an organization,we're in the process of
identifying or defining our EVPwho gets involved?
How do we get groups involved?
Maybe let's talk through, as wedo through these projects.
(09:02):
What's the first step?
Sure, yeah, where do we begin?
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Yeah well, how to get
people, Maybe let's talk
through, as we do through, theseprojects.
What's the first step?
Sure, when do we begin?
Yeah Well, how to get peopleinvolved, that might be a whole
other episode.
But who to get involved?
You know, there's some obviouswell, at least obvious to us,
but let's list them outStakeholder groups that
definitely need to be involvedin an EVP project.
You know, we always start anEVP project with an initial
phase that we call discovery andideation, and this is a process
(09:32):
of inviting members of theexecutive team from any and all
departments that want to join.
There's certainly a few thatmust join.
I mean, we can't force them,but it would be pretty
concerning if we didn't havesomebody from senior leadership
involved with the consumer,brand side of the house or
marketing.
But beyond that, we really wantto have a wide tent and invite
people into a brainstormingsession about what are some
different answers to that whywork for us question that we
(09:54):
could credibly own.
And this serves two functions.
One, it gives us some ideasthat we can take forth into some
different stakeholder groupsand say, hey, here's some ideas,
what do you think?
So that's great, but it's alsoreally a bridge building
activity and a team buildingactivity, because if you're
going to take the time todevelop an EVP and you do it
behind closed doors and spendseveral months and lots of money
(10:16):
trying to figure it out andthen the first that other people
in the organization hear of itis just this big unveil, you're
going to have a much harder timeactivating the brand and
getting people to buy in acrossthe board.
So phase one is really allabout that engaging all these
people, and when we end at theend of this process and say
here's our EVP, nobody'ssurprised and everyone kind of
(10:36):
felt like they co-authored it insome extent, because they did
the first stakeholder group.
I think that's really critical.
Of course, the other two bigones are ones we've referenced
already candidates and employees.
We usually follow that initialphase with two subsequent phases
of research, and we start withemployees.
You know employees can tell usa lot and of course you know is
helping us understand what iscredible and what is authentic.
(10:59):
Who's better positioned to tellus if what we're saying about
why we're so great is true ornot than the people who are
actually living that experience?
And so that usually takes theform of a survey and we try to
get as many people involved aswe can and we put some of those
(11:20):
ideas that we developed in thatfirst phase in front of them and
say what do you think howappealing is this?
Does this accurately describethe reason why you like working
for us?
And of course, we can slicethat and dice that data by
industry or by department,rather, or by tenure, all kinds
of things like that.
But it helps us get a prettyclear understanding of which of
those initial ideas we developedin that ideation session are
(11:43):
worth taking to market, which isto say worth testing with the
external talent market.
And we do the employees beforethe candidates on purpose,
because if you just started withcandidates, you could find out
that some EVP is extremelyappealing and think this is the
direction we want to head, onlyto find out later that your
employees say it's not authentic, that's not actually what it's
like to work here.
So it's strategic.
(12:11):
You can start with employeesand hone those initial EVP ideas
that you had and then you takeit to candidates and by that
time you may have narrowed itdown to one or two big ideas in
terms of directions to head withyour EVP.
Candidates will tell you hey,this is appealing.
Hey, this is different thanwhat other employers in the
space are saying.
Yes, this would get me to clickapply, and then you can make a
decision.
With all of those stakeholdergroups, having put their input
in here, you know which way dowe want to head, and usually you
(12:33):
get a pretty clear decision bylooking at all three of those
groups.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah.
So I'm just curious you know alot of surveying, right?
A lot of conversations likewhat makes a good survey, marty?
Or maybe you know a lot ofsurveying, right?
A lot of conversations likewhat makes a good survey, marty,
or maybe you know.
Maybe a better question is likewhat have we seen as gaps when
people try to do this themselves, right?
I think we see a lot, likeanyone could say.
I've always said anyone cansend a survey.
You know, I think there's a lotof nuance to structuring
(12:59):
surveys, interpreting data.
So you know, maybe just at ahigh level, you know how do you
think about the approach toanalyzing data, some of the
important pieces for just howyou structure data collection in
general?
Are there certain rules orthings that are incredibly
important that we should beconsidering or clients should
(13:20):
consider if they're embarking onthis on their own?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Yeah, I mean I think
your point is well taken.
Surveys have become kind of acommodity in the business world.
In fact you could argue thereare too many surveys.
We hear that from a lot of ourclients.
They're constantly pushingemails to their employees, say,
give us an NPS score, how arethings going?
Or rate this idea, or what kindof snacks do you want in the
break room, and I think there issurvey fatigue.
But those kinds of automatedsurveys are really not a
(13:46):
substitute for what I would callmore strategic market research
kind of surveys, and that's whatwe do.
So it's hard to answer theabstract like what makes a good
questionnaire, I suppose.
But there are establishedconsumer marketing methodologies
for evaluating theeffectiveness of a concept In
the consumer marketing worldthat would be a product or
service.
Here, of course, we're talkingabout jobs, but the same
(14:07):
principles apply and so you cantake a really kind of scientific
or rigorous approach tomeasuring the differences
between how each one of thoseEVPs performs.
Is it rocket science?
Could someone figure it out?
Probably, but if you don't knowthose frameworks and
methodologies and how to readthe data with confidence, I
think a lot of organizationsjust get jammed up.
(14:27):
Yeah, they conducted a survey,but they get stuck in terms of
the analysis and how to actuallyactivate the insights, if that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah, no, I think it
does, and I guess you know.
The last question I'll leaveyou with or maybe comment you
know, before we close is we'vespent a lot of time talking
about how we define an EVP, whatmakes a strong EVP, all the
data and surveys that goes intounderstanding your supporting
pillars and what opportunitiesyou're going to bring forward to
(14:57):
test with employees andcandidates.
We've talked very little aboutactivation.
Is it worth talking about whatwe've seen as gaps with other
EVP projects?
Is it fair to say that we'veseen other starting points
started activation with theflash, and how do you feel about
that?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Yeah, well, I know
we've touched on this quite a
bit with some of our guests onthe main podcast.
But yeah, it is worth statingthat employer brand is a
strategic activity.
That's why it starts withresearch and these core insights
among those stakeholder groups.
Now plenty of organizationsskip the strategy piece and go
to the exciting stuff, which isa career site, testimonial
(15:36):
videos, other recruitmentmarketing collateral.
That's exciting, that is thefun, sexy stuff, no doubt about
it, and it's incrediblyimportant.
That is the final sort ofexecution that gets brought to
market.
But, of course, if it's notrooted in the strategy and in
that kind of framework that Iwas just talking about, you're
really just kind of guessing andmaybe you'll guess right.
(15:56):
But that's why we emphasizedoing the research first and
then the output of those threephases that I talked about is
kind of what we've called anemployer brand playbook.
It answers that question that weset out to answer very clearly,
in a short way why work for us?
There's one or two sentences,remember, but then it goes into
a lot more detail in terms oflike.
Here are the messages that willappeal most to different
(16:19):
subgroups, different types ofemployees you might be trying to
attract, and here's how youshould emphasize and communicate
with them, and that reallyserves as a springboard for that
activation phase, which is thecreative phase.
So now we have a really greatunderstanding of what the
message should be from all thisgreat research we just did.
Now let's bring it to life withsome appealing creatives and
(16:40):
interesting videos, that sort ofthing.
But I think this is a bigdifference here to start with
strategy, rather than justskipping straight to the visuals
, which you know, frankly, hasbeen common in industry,
although I do think it'schanging, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah Well.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I think that's a good
place to.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You know, put a pin
in.
You know, our first educationalepisode, you know.
I'll just say I know.
You know, one of my more recentfavorite books is that
scientific advertising.
And you know it's 101 years oldnow and it's not rocket science
.
But if you're going to spendthousands of dollars advertising
a product, you'd probably testdifferent ads and see what
(17:17):
worked best.
If it costs you 50 cents to buya widget versus $5 to buy a
widget, there's probably a lotof value in testing two
different messages to see whichone is going to be cheaper to
convert, and the same goes forfinding the right talent and
understanding how you speaktheir language too.
And I think that, in a sense,approaching an EVP project, an
(17:38):
employer brand project, withdata is arguably a bit more
scientific than maybe theindustry has been used to, at
least over the last couple ofdecades.
All right, thanks for tuning in.
As always, head on over tochangestateio or shoot us a note
on all the social media.
We'd love to hear from you andwe'll check you guys next week.
(18:01):
You.