September 15, 2021 • 38 mins
In this episode we discuss how often children's lives are lost to history, and then celebrate one particular child who defied the odds. James McCune Smith went on to become the first African American to earn an M.D., but before that he impressed his teachers, met the Marquis de Lafayette in New York City, and joined other African American students for advocating for change—all nearly forty years before the Emancipation Proclamation. For related materials, including a reading list, please visit childrenstablepodcast.com.
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Episode Transcript
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Anna Mae Duane (00:03):
Welcome to the Children's Table, a podcast
dedicated to the idea that youngpeople have always been
participants in history,inliterature in art and in
politics.
Victoria Ford Smith (00:13):
As three professors have spent our
careers studying the history andculture of childhood, we want to
share the questions we haveabout how adults have imagined
what childhood means, and howthose ideas have shaped the
lives of children, for betterand for worse.
Kate Capshaw (00:28):
Along the way, we will share the stories of some
brilliant, brave andgroundbreaking young people
we've gotten to know.
Victoria Ford Smith (00:36):
I'm Victoria,
Anna Mae Duane (00:38):
I'm Anna Mae
Kate Capshaw (00:39):
I'm Kate. And let's head to the children's
table.
Victoria Ford Smith (00:48):
Today's podcast is focusing on one
student at one school that wethink should be better known in
the history of the UnitedStates. This one little kid
prompts us to ask some bigquestions. Why do we know so
little about children inhistory? Is it because they
didn't do anything historicallyimportant? (hint: they did.) Or
is it because we don't trust therecords that children leave us?
(01:10):
As so often happens when weexamine our common- sense ideas
about children and childhood,we find that our assumptions
reinforce false, and evendamaging, ideas about who counts
as important, and whose ideas weshould take seriously.
Kate Capshaw (01:25):
So Anna Mae, who are we talking about today?
Anna Mae Duane (01:28):
Okay. I'm gonna set the stage. It's a September
day in 1824. An 11 year oldAfrican American boy is making
his way to the Five pointsneighborhood in New York City.
He has an appointment with theMarquis de Lafayette,
Revolutionary war hero, friendof Alexander Hamilton. And if
the crowds were any indication,the 19th century equivalent
(01:51):
about rock star. The child'sname is James McCune Smith; he
was born to an enslaved mother.
And thus, under the laws of NewYork City, technically insulate
himself. In spite of this start,young James goes on to become
the first African American toearn an MD. He would write the
introduction to FrederickDouglass' second autobiography.
And he would be a leader inrebutting the emerging racist
(02:14):
scientific arguments of theearly to mid 19th century. So
he's, he's amazing. But before Igo further, to add sort of what
we know about his adult life andhis later life, I want to stop
for a second and reflect aboutwhat we don't know about his
childhood, or the childhood oflots of other children in the
(02:35):
18th and 19th centuries. Whydon't we have more stories like
this of what children weredoing, what their days were,
like. Victoria, I know you'vedone a lot of work, researching
the lives of 19th centuryBritish children who we wouldn't
otherwise know about and weabsolutely need to know about.
So what are your thoughts aboutwhy we still have all these
(02:57):
surprises that when we find aremarkable child in history,
everyone's, oh, I had no ideathat this person was there. This
was something that we couldfind.
Victoria Ford Smith (03:09):
Yeah, I think one of the first reasons
we don't know a lot about thesekids--and I think all three of
us know this--is that learningabout them is really hard. So
traditionally, adults haven'tfound the lives of children
important enough to preserve inthe archives and what has been
preserved. those documents areabout really particular types of
(03:30):
children who are living inparticular contexts and
situations. So for example,often when you see an image of a
child, before the late 19thcentury, that child was probably
dead. I mean, now they'redefinitely dead because they
were in the 19th century, buteven at the time, they were
probably dead. Paintings werecommissioned by wealthy parents
(03:51):
to memorialize their lostchildren. And if you find
documents about a child in alibrary, or the archives of a
historical society, then moreoften than not, that kid was
really rich, or that kid wasrelated to a celebrity. So
wealthy families, or families ofwell known authors or artists,
(04:11):
other cultural figures, thosefamilies might donate materials
to local historical societies orarchives or universities. And
then later historians canrecover materials related to
childhood in particular fromthose family papers. So that
happens sometimes too. And thensometimes institutions like
(04:31):
schools or hospitals ororphanages keep records. And so
we'll have, you know, acollection of documents about
children, so assignments, orhealth records or, you know,
photographs of children who arepart of these organizations. But
for the most part, so unless afamily was marked by loss or
(04:54):
wealth or fame, or all of theabove, a lot of people just
didn't find it necessary. todocument the details of kids
lives/
Kate Capshaw (05:03):
Here, I mean, I think that's all really true.
It's it's so difficult,especially when you're thinking
about children who lived inspaces that weren't recognized
by, you know, schools orauthorities or wealth, to even
register the details of theirlives in any way. It's just
really hard. So I think we doneed to talk about, you know,
(05:23):
what gets preserved and whatappears in the archive,
especially, I mean, my ownresearch interest is in
communities of color. So, forinstance, in the 19th century,
the first black essayist isactually a 16 year old girl, Ann
Plato, who was a black girl andI did a lot of research trying
to find something about herchildhood. And what we found, in
(05:47):
addition to the book, isaccounts from white people who
were surveying her classroom,which when she was a student
teacher, and assessing her as ateacher. So it's really
interesting, what, what doesn'tappear in the archives?
Victoria Ford Smith (06:00):
Yeah, and I think that the idea of the
documents are about a child, butinterpreted by somebody else.
Like, I think that's somethingto really keep in mind. Like I
just started looking atdocuments of poor children from
the 19th century. And, you know,it's really famous guy, Dr.
Barnardo, who ran a lot ofcharitable organizations would
(06:21):
take photographs of thechildren, at his organizations,
but, you know, there's a lot oftalk like, well, he would make
them more ragged than they were,in order to present a particular
narrative of poor childhood,often, for benevolent reasons.
But so like, is this actually arecord of this child or not? I
think is a difficult question.
Anna Mae Duane (06:41):
Yes. I mean, it's so often it's whatever
narratives adults want us to seein the records of the children
that they're preserving. Andthat certainly is the case with
James McCune Smith, and hisschoolmates, right, we know
about them because they weredoing things that adults thought
were important and marked down.
Kate Capshaw (07:02):
So to recap, we see that if you were not from a
wealthy or historicallyprominent family, as Victoria
was discussing, chances are thatyour childhood would pass with
virtually no record left for usin the contemporary moment.
Maybe birth records, maybebaptismal records, but very
little trace of, of individualchildren. And if you were poor,
(07:26):
and especially if you were thechild of enslaved parents, or if
you were enslaved, both ofwhich, James McCune Smith was,
there's very little chance,right that historians will get
to know much about you,especially your childhood,
right? And so, we do have quitea bit of material about the
childhood of James McCune Smith,who did go on to become wealthy
(07:47):
and quite influential on theabolitionist movement, and in
the scientific conversations ofthe time. But in James's case, I
think this is important isbecause his position as a free
child, in a city poised to endslavery, placed him in the
middle of some of the nation'smost heated debates, and they
were carried out by some of thenation's most influential
political and historicalfigures.
Victoria Ford Smith (08:09):
Yeah, like, like Lafayette, so ao why was he
meeting the Marquis on the daythat you, you're talking about,
Anna Mae?
Anna Mae Duane (08:15):
This was part of Lafayette'a nationwide tour of
the country. It's 1824. Thecountry's coming up on its 50th
anniversary. There's lots ofanxiety about how we're going to
remember the origins and theRevolutionary era. And so he
gets invited back, and it justis incredibly exciting across
(08:38):
the country. He visits each ofthe American states at the time.
He travels 1000s of miles bystagecoach, horseback,
steamboat, the works everywherehe goes, there are crowds,
waving handkerchiefs and doingother various 19th century
things like being very excited(laughter). And they held
parades, they had militarysalutes and exercises. In
(09:02):
Philadelphia, for instance,there was a 6000 man military
parade to welcome him. If you'vebeen to Independence Hall, it's
partially so beautiful becausethey refurbished it because
Lafayette was coming
Kate Capshaw (09:15):
Was he played by daveed Diggs in this moment, or
no? ,
Anna Mae Duane (09:18):
In my mind, he is and everyone saying,
"Lafayette!" (laughter) and it'sreally fun. Yeah, so I mean, he
was this, you know, thistouchstone, this vision of what
the nation's ideals were, but ofcourse, he's also quite old. So
it's this really exciting momentof sort of looking back and
(09:39):
looking forward at the same timeand also, you know, historians
see it as one of the firstmoments of real celebrity
culture in the 19th century,like everyone wants to see him.
Victoria Ford Smith (09:50):
So this is like a huge deal. Why did James
McCune Smith, why was his schoolpart of this moment?
Anna Mae Duane (09:56):
Right this school and you know, lower
Manhattan-not the greatestneighborhood gets a visit from
Lafayette and James McCune Smithis the kid who gets to greet him
and say hello and welcome to theschool. For one thing, the
school had been created not toolong after the Revolution by
Lafayette's friend and colleagueand I'll not sing it, but it's
(10:18):
Alexander Hamilton, AlexanderHamilton and other members of
what was called the New YorkManumission Society, which was a
group of elite, powerful whitemen who were dedicated to
furthering anti-slavery laws.
Part of that conversation at thetime was this belief that school
was really important, thateducation was deeply important
(10:39):
for the process of manumission,
for for emancipation (10:44):
you couldn't have one without the
other. And, you know, once wereally start digging in on how
it was first imagined in thenorth, how anti slavery laws
were crafted, we see thatchildren, children like James,
were at the heart of the debateand really animated how they
were imagining what freedommight look like.
Kate Capshaw (11:05):
Now, when we look back across history, we kind of
think of anti-slavery laws asbeing pretty cut and dried. So
what what are you seeing aboutchildren at the heart of these
kind of complicated laws?
Anna Mae Duane (11:17):
Right, I think most of us think of the
Emancipation Proclamation, orlaws like that, that come much
later, where, you know, boom,everyone who was enslaved is
free. That isn't, that's not howit worked at all in the north at
first, almost. Massachusetts issort of an outlier. But states
like New York, New Jersey, theyput freedom in the future, they
(11:42):
free newborn children first. Sofor instance, in New York, the
law is anyone born after July4th on 1799. I believe, anyone
after that point is free. Ifyou're born before that point,
too bad, right? They're onlyinvested in the young. But of
course, the young aren't freedimmediately. Often, they have to
(12:05):
stay in enslavement, often totheir mid 20s. And the logic
behind this, I mean, there's onelogic in which it was that
everybody postponed the cost ofemancipation, right, everybody
got 25 more years of free labor.
But the philosophical argumentbehind it. What they said was,
the reason behind it was thatthey felt that freedom was
(12:25):
something you had to becultivated into, you had to be
educated into. If you had hadbad habits, by being in slavery
as if that was your fault,right. But you couldn't just be
free. It was it had to besomething that you were taught
to do that you had to sort oframp up to. Of course, this was
never applied to white children.
(12:48):
But that was the sense thatchildren were were all the
potential were children werewearable, the hope was and
children were also the testcase, right? This is going to be
the first generation how arethey going to manage it?
Victoria Ford Smith (13:03):
So how are children supposed to prove this?
Anna Mae Duane (13:07):
I mean. and now we're back to the New York
African free school and why he'smeeting Lafaytte. Lots of
schools in the 19th century, asschools do, to some extent
today, would have events ,wouldhave showcases the equivalent
today might be school plays ortalent showst. In the 19th
century these were a bigger dealpeople would come just for
(13:29):
something to do like it was partof your civic engagement is to
come by and see what the localschools were doing. Ben Franklin
talks about it, he would go to aschool and sort of see how the
youth were prospering.
Victoria Ford Smith (13:45):
That would be so creepy now, . . if you
just stopped by a school to see
Anna Mae Duane (13:50):
really what, Ben Franklin? I don't know. I don't
know. I mean, that's such aninteresting point with the
difference of sort of like, whatchild's schooling is who's who
it's for. There was definitely abigger sense that children had
to be used to public speaking,that was part of democracy. So
they had to get used to bigaudiences. And that, yeah, that
(14:11):
everyone was invested. And nowYeah, it would be so weird if
you just started.
Kate Capshaw (14:15):
Yeah, I mean, kids already feel a lot of pressure
when they're on the stage infront of just their families.
These kids must have feltextraordinary pressure, because
they were representing sort ofthe success of this freedom
project, as well, as you know,entertaining Ben Franklin and
Lafayette. There's a lot ofpressure on these guys.
Anna Mae Duane (14:35):
Absolutely. I can't . . I mean, and that's
where in terms of the records,we I have the record of what
James McCune Smith says to theMarquis de Lafayette. We don't
have any records of how he feltthat morning, or what he said to
his friends, which is you know,what I in some ways, I really
would like to know, but thepressure was amazing. They had .
(14:56):
. they called them examinationdays, which gives you the sense
of . . . it was a test and thesekids who are middle school aged,
James McCune Smith is 11 when hemeets when he greets the
Lafayette. Kids in the schoolwere basically from nine to 14.
And so you would have anyonefrom the neighborhood maybe Ben
Franklin stopping by. So he'sgone by 1824. But you know,
(15:18):
local politicians absolutelystopped by, local newspapers and
national newspapers would stopby, because it was a deep sense
that these children and whatthey were capable of, were a
leading data point or leadingpiece of evidence in debates
about freedom and education andthe nation's future. Just as one
(15:43):
example, in 1824, a newspapercalled the Commercial
Advertiser, runs a long pieceand it reproduces, which again,
like can you imagine, like theNew York Times reproducing
whatever speech was given at PS54. It's the equivalent of that,
that's how important that theyfelt this material was. And this
(16:04):
was the commentary. So theCommercial Advertiser runs a
long piece, after theperformances, saying that they
had "never seen a white schoolof the same age, where there was
more order, neatness of dress,and cleanliness of person." The
editor points out that there"had been a few Southern
gentlemen," that's the words heuses, in the audience and he
(16:26):
wishes that there had been moreright. But the implication that
Southern gentleman would beconvinced of the wrong of
slavery by watching these kids.
So yeah, the pressure isenormous. And they knew what
there's one moment in thearchives where one of the
younger kids talks about if Imess up, please don't hold it
against my race. When he's nineyears old, right?
Kate Capshaw (16:50):
Yeah, that's so tough.
Anna Mae Duane (16:51):
Yeah.
Kate Capshaw (16:51):
I mean, I remember in, in looking at Ann Plato's
school records or records whereshe was teaching, she's the
essayist, who's, you know, 16years old, and it's kind of a
student teacher in the, in theblack school in Hartford,
Connecticut. And the whiteexaminer comes in, and the
notes, obviously, are going tohave racial bias. And there's
they're charting how many kidswere absent and how many kids
(17:13):
are present, and reallypejorative ways. And then his
comment, and believe me, it'sbeen like 20 years since I
looked at this, but it struck meit's he said, they were well
behaved and they sang likeblackbirds. And I just felt
like, ugh, it's, it's so hard toescape, there's no escaping,
right? That racial bias from thewhite examiner of the crowd of
(17:35):
black children who areperforming, but this sounds like
very similar sorts of pressuresand expectations on this on this
group and even more because ofthe national spotlight with
Lafayette and, and just thelocation of the school.
Victoria Ford Smith (17:49):
I think to that, the idea that I noticed
when you were reading thatnewspaper account, Anna Mae,
was this idea of orderliness andcleanliness, too, which also has
these biases underneath it,right that How surprising it is
that these children are wellbehaved and clean.
Kate Capshaw (18:04):
Exactly.
Victoria Ford Smith (18:04):
And it seems almost, I mean, I haven't
read the entire account, right.
But I feel like there's oftenthese types of reports like an
emphasis more on behavior thanon academics, right, because the
idea that this is like a, adocile population, in a way, I
don't know if that's what'shappening here. But these are,
these are children who can bewell behaved and controlled and
(18:27):
orderly, right . . .
Anna Mae Duane (18:30):
Which is so much a part of it. The skits were
often written by the whiteadministrators. And often they
would be about things like whyit's important to come to school
on time and punctuality, andthey would give notices to the
parents about how they shouldbehave. So there was a lot, you
(18:51):
know, that these were the sortof well intentioned white
reformers.
Kate Capshaw (18:55):
(laughter) Can you imagine?
Anna Mae Duane (18:57):
The Failure of imagination! This is as good as
it got, that that's what theywere concerned about, like that
was part of what was requiredfor citizenship. But I think
also there's, this is, you know,coming up on Jacksonian America,
that's a big anxiety across theboard, right for immigrants and
(19:17):
for all these sort of newpeople. What, you know, how are
they going to deport themselves?
How are they going to manage thevote, right and have that kind
of political power? So it's bothI think, absolutely a racial
conversation, but it's also anongoing, larger conversation
about what do we need to trainchildren to do? And control is a
(19:37):
lot of it.
Kate Capshaw (19:41):
Yes, control and it's also documentation of, you
know, white benevolence andpatting themselves on the back
and things like that. So whatabout Lafayette and how did that
sort of performance of Americanback patting happen? (laughter)
How did that go?
Anna Mae Duane (20:00):
Well, by all accounts is a big success, the
speech James McCune Smith givesis, you know, three or four
sentences long and it's recordedthat Lafayette says "thank you
my dear child." And I can onlyimagine the crowd goes wild. But
it gets recorded three differenttimes in the records right they
keep writing and over and overin nicer penmanship. So there's
(20:22):
a real sense that this was ahistoric moment. You know,
again, it gives us a glimpse ofthis one moment. And when I came
across this, I had no idea whoJames McCune Smith was. And if
you didn't go on to be famousand fairly wealthy and well
known, I would never knowanything else about it. But it
was sort of these moments, itwas such an invitation to do
(20:44):
detective work, like what isgoing on here? Who is this kid?
Why would they ask him to meetthis revolutionary war hero and
sort of like digging there, yousort of uncovered more and more
of who he is. And I think one ofthe things, I realized that even
with all the, as we've sort ofdiscussed the bias and the
constraints around what, youknow, we're getting what they
(21:05):
say, on the examination days, wedon't get the notes that they
pass to each other in class. Butwe do still get a sense that
these middle school childrenwere players in national
conversations, were rubbing upagainst historical figures, you
know, of national importance,right? That they were part of
(21:29):
the conversation that . . Howmuch freedom they had to sort of
exert their own influence, wecan discuss, but they were still
there. Right, this conversationwas happening because of them.
Kate Capshaw (21:41):
It is totally fascinating in terms of their
visibility in that kind ofpunctual moment. And then sort
of the absence in the archivefor most of the people except
for if they became famous, likeJames McCune Smith, on growing
up. So we'll keep that in mindas we take a break.
Victoria Ford Smith (22:04):
So when we left James's school, the
students-- basically middleschoolers-- are demonstrating
their talents at a school eventthat received national attention
for examination day. But I'mcurious, Anna Mae. what
happened most of the time, likeevery other day of the year
where they weren't being visitedby these enormous historical
(22:25):
figures?
Anna Mae Duane (22:25):
Yeah, they had, and we do have some records of
this, again, from theschoolmaster, but they had a
curriculum that was reading andwriting and arithmetic. There
were classes in navigation forthe boys and classes and sewing
for the girls. So in some ways,a very standard curriculum, and
actually a pretty elite one,these kids were doing school
(22:47):
work that lots of kids acrossthe country weren't getting
close to. So they were theeducation itself was quite
remarkable. But one of thethings I find most exciting and
remarkable about this school,the more I dug into, it is not
necessarily what they weretaught in class, but how they
were taught it.
Kate Capshaw (23:04):
So what what do you mean by how they were
taught.
Anna Mae Duane (23:06):
So they used what was called a Lancasterarian
method, which I think I'vetalked about on other episodes,
cuz I'm obsessed with it. But itwas in vogue, towards the end of
the 18th century and throughoutthe first few decades of the
19th century. And the ideabehind this method is that
(23:28):
students should teach each otherthat someone has described it as
sort of an ongoing spelling bee,which one kid is designated as
the leader of a pod, right, agroup of five or six kids. So
you would compete to be amonitor, which is basically an
(23:49):
assistant teacher, and then youas assistant teacher are
responsible for getting yourgroup through that day's
lessons. And there were it wasvery synchronized, you would
sort of move around the classand do different things. But the
monitor at examination day, theywould have these really
elaborate sort of handwritingplaques, or they'd have these
(24:12):
really elaborate pieces of artthat would were dedicated to the
monitors, like the teller was ahuge honor, they would get
special badges or sashes sayingthat they were the monitor, but
they were assistant teachers.
And one of the things I think isremarkable about this is that
these kids who no one thought,right, again, they're poor.
(24:33):
They're black. They have nopolitical power. They're
technically--many of them--stillenslaved, but they're getting to
be leaders, right. They're theones teaching each other. And I
just think that that whetherthat was the school's intention
or not, was sort of thisremarkable democratic
distribution of power.
Kate Capshaw (24:53):
Do you have any sense of which children were
allowed to go to this school.
There have to be many, many moreenslaved and free children at
this time in that area. So doyou know how the kids ended up
there?
Anna Mae Duane (25:10):
it I mean, at its height, it had over 500
students on the rolls. So that'sbig. Yeah. And there was more
than one of these schools. JamesMcCune Smith went to African
Free School number two, butthere were like five of them.
But to answer your questionabout who was allowed to go, I
think a lot of it was word ofmouth. There was the first black
(25:35):
newspaper. Freedom's Journal wasa big recruiter and cheerleader
of the school. So they too,would publish the records of the
examination days, but they wouldalso reach out to parents, the
editors of that newspaper wouldalso go knock on doors. And
that's tricky, like historiansaren't quite sure what that
(25:56):
involves, because I've readaccounts in which knocking on
the doors was to sort ofevaluate whether students were
worthy. Whether their parentswere the right, yeah, yeah, a
lot of that, whether they werethe right sort of up and coming
family. But then I've read otheraccounts where they were really
recruiting people, and theyreally wanted kids in the door
(26:18):
for their own numbers, amongother things. So I don't know
how hard it was to get in, Ithink another, you know, real
limiting factor is that it's NewYork City, it's a tough
neighborhood. If you live toofar, you can't get to the
school, right? You don't havemoney for the public
transportation, such as it was,and often you're not allowed on
it. So you have to be walkingdistance from the school. So if
(26:42):
somehow your way uptown, youjust don't have access to the
school.
Kate Capshaw (26:45):
You have to have parents who can sacrifice your
presence for the school day.
That would be huge. Right?
Anna Mae Duane (26:51):
Yes. So yeah.
Victoria Ford Smith (26:53):
I mean, I'm interested to and, like, what
the Lancasterian and method doesfor kids and to kids, sort of
like I, in a way, I'm like, it'ssuper exciting, because it puts
children in positions of respectand authority, you know, it
within their child community,and also that's conferred by an
(27:14):
adult. But at the same time,it's definitely on the practical
level, if I understand itcorrectly, a way to just manage
a lot of children. And so it'slike, we don't have the
resources to have a teacher, foreveryone. And so you have to
(27:35):
like find a way to make childrenwork within the school space,
which is, you know, definitely adouble edged sword, I think.
Yeah,
Anna Mae Duane (27:45):
no, I mean, it was free labor. This was sort of
outsourced. It was alwaysdesigned for poor children. And
those are the schools it getsused in schools for indigenous
people out west, it gets used incolonial schools and South
America, the British colonies.
Yeah, absolutely. Right. And soit's both the free labor. And
you know, he would boast thatyou only need one school master
(28:07):
for school of 500 students. Andthat's in the records of the of
the school that that somebodycame to visit. And the school
was running like a Swissrailroad. And there was no, I
always joke that like the guywas in the bar. Was the school
principal that day? But whoknows, right? He wasn't
Victoria Ford Smith (28:28):
Can you imagine being the one adult?
Like, with 500 children?
Kate Capshaw (28:33):
And I've one last question about this. The
monitors, are they older thanthe people? They're the kids,
they're supervising? Are theythe same age, though? Like,
what? They're the same age?
Anna Mae Duane (28:44):
Yeah. No, and it was competitive, like you could
lose your spot. If somehow youyou know, whatever, test or, you
know, examination is happeningthat day, and a kid who's your
student does better than you,boom, he's the monitor.
Kate Capshaw (29:03):
Oh, wow.
Anna Mae Duane (29:04):
So there was also I mean, another part of
this, it's like, it's trainingfor capitalism, it's training
for factory labor, right? Thatyou have these, these sort of
autonomous, everyone knows theirjob, and they have to be trusted
to do it. And if someone elsecan do it better, then they get
your job.
Victoria Ford Smith (29:22):
I mean, you can start to imagine the
different types of relationshipsthat that would create among
children, right? Because in someways, it's like, I am invested
in your success, because itkeeps me where I am. If I'm a
monitor, like, I want you to dowell, because I want to remain
in charge, but also like thissort of competitive hope that
(29:45):
another child will not succeed,like it just creates these weird
emotional structures within aschool.
Kate Capshaw (29:52):
Yeah, yeah. I want to read about that. Where's the
record of that? Let's have themiddle schoolers who were the
mean, guys were the Heather's(laughter)
Anna Mae Duane (30:02):
Sorry, and it's Middle School. You know, that's
gotta be tough.
Kate Capshaw (30:06):
I mean, yeah.
Victoria Ford Smith (30:08):
I mean, who gets the sash? That's what
everyone wanted to know.
Everyone wants the monitor sash.
Anna Mae Duane (30:14):
Yes, they totally do. And there was also
he called it a class of merit,which I'm imagining is like, all
the monitors get their ownspecial award. Yeah, those are
the records that I really want.
But I do know that one of JamesMcCune Smith's classmates was
not a monitor, because he wasn'ta great student, he was kind of
a rebellious student. But hewould lead a group of which
(30:37):
James McCune Smith was a part,in which they would basically
make plans for what to do withtheir education. They were
organizing, okay, we're going toget our education, we're going
to go down South, and we'regoing to spread freedom in our
own way. So I do think rightthere is both this
competitiveness with each other,but also the sense that they're
(30:57):
willing to leave, or they sortof are practicing leadership,
and they're willing to look upto each other. Yeah, and make
their own plans.
Kate Capshaw (31:07):
I'm really interested in the school in
black schooling in general,during this period in terms of
prefacing the emergence of ablack middle class and this
commitment to education,especially in the south. That
happens later in the post CivilWar. So I think it's really
fascinating. And I know thatyou've talked a little bit about
(31:29):
what James McCune Smithaccomplished, right? Could you
remind us about his glories? Andare there anybody else who
achieved such glories afterattending this school?
Anna Mae Duane (31:39):
Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing again,
when I stumbled on theserecords, I was just looking for
like, " I want to look up kidsin history, and this is a school
so let me give it a try." Butthen, once I, you know, started
looking up these names, we haveJames McCune Smith, who again,
goes to the University ofGlasgow and gets an MD, no
African American had done it. Hehis friend, Henry Highland
(32:01):
Garnet, who again was sort oforganizing when he was 14 years
old, becomes a world famousorator. He speaks to 1000s of
people, he becomes the firstAfrican American to address the
House of Representatives. IraAldridge also went to the
school, I mean, just thisclassroom was amazing. And these
are all really within the same.
They knew each other, they kneweach other as kids, whether they
(32:22):
were in the exact same grade is.
.. I'm not clear about but IrAAldridge who was the first
American of any race, but he wasAfrican American, to play
Shakespeare in London. And hesort of tours Europe throughout
and was famous throughoutEurope. And then there's other
people like Alexander Cromwell,who W.E.B. Dubois talks about
(32:48):
meeting, he was the statesman,he was also an orator and
administer the girls that wentto this school. And this is we
haven't talked about this,right, another limit on getting
the records or the lives ofchildren in history, excavated
is gender, both because the oddsof them going on to be being
(33:09):
famous in their own right ismuch smaller, but also because
of name changes, but the ones Ihave been able to trace often
went into careers in educationthemselves. So you know, there's
artists, there's collegeadministrators, it's just an
incredible class of studentsthat come out of here.
Kate Capshaw (33:27):
So this returns to question I asked earlier, is
this typical? Like, why do youthink the school is producing so
many exceptional people?
Anna Mae Duane (33:36):
Yeah I mean, I've, I still wonder about that.
Because there were otherremarkable schools for African
American students and Boston andPhiladelphia and other places, I
think it is partially the systemand how they taught each other
and relied on each other asleaders. But I also think, you
know, it might be just one ofthose, you know, let you think
(33:58):
of sort of the Revolutionaryera, and you just had sort of
this incredible rash ofbrilliant people showing up all
at once. And that seemed to bewhat was happening with this
school, a combination of the waythey, they they served each
other, but also, maybe anawareness that you were the
first generation to inheritfreedom, and that you need to
make the most of it, I think wasalso part of it. But again, that
(34:21):
was the case, all over theNortheast. So I just think they
were remarkable. And I thinktheir friendship was a big part
of helping each other succeed.
Victoria Ford Smith (34:30):
I love that too. Because often when we think
about famous people as kids, wethink of them as these like,
remarkable individuals who aredifferent from everyone around
them. Right, this idea thatJames McCune Smith was great
from the beginning and went onto achieve great things. But the
picture of the African freeschool that you're suggesting is
(34:51):
more like no, these were kidswho were working together and
collaborating and learningtogether and supporting one
another. And so it just makesmakes me think that for every
child that we can find in thearchive who becomes remarkable,
they were surrounded often byother young people who helped
make that happen, who we can'tsometimes can see, and sometimes
(35:12):
can't.
Kate Capshaw (35:13):
Yeah, I agree with that so much, especially in
terms of your comment earlierAnna Mae about gender, that
there are so many reallyspectacular individuals in
history who have been lost orerased or, or don't register in
the archive in the way thatsometimes boys do.
Anna Mae Duane (35:29):
Totally. Yeah.
And I think, you know, perhapsmore positive things we can take
from this is that children, evenif you can't find them in the
archives, right, that, in someways, this is a remarkable
cohort. But it's another exampleof how young people support one
another, are very aware of theirpolitical power, or are very
aware of being kept frompolitical power and are willing
(35:51):
to organize to develop more. AndI think we have, in our own
moment, there seems to be thissurprise, when we see people
like Greta Thunberg, or MariCopney, who is an advocate for
clean water in Flint, and shestarted I think she was like 11,
or 12. She's a presence onTwitter. . That somehow, oh,
this is a new thing, kids today,what's happening, you know, and
(36:15):
this is big backlash. But Ithink, looking at this school,
and again, that is, you know,you both pointing out with this
collective of youth organizingand youth leadership and
cooperation is something thathas been there, and we just
haven't known how to look forit, or historians haven't
thought it was important. Or,again, we think of sort of the
(36:37):
history as the end result. Soyou know, if it if they win the
argument, or if they becomefamous, then it's important. And
I don't think we do enough to,to sort of look at the social
history of childhood and the waythat that shapes whether or not
they become famous, or whetheror not they win their arguments
that shapes the conversationshapes what's possible, right?
(37:01):
The school closes down by 1833.
And they go on to other things.
But that moment, I think, led todevelopments in abolitionist
history, right? Because theytalked to each other as children
as political agents, they werethat much more capable of making
political change both aschildren and later on.
Kate Capshaw (37:24):
Yeah, that's just it's just a fascinating story
Anna Mae, thank you for yourwork on James McCune Smith and
her introducing us to thisimportant school in this
community of children who arereally, you know, helping to
shape reshape the world. So Ithink it's just a wonderful
story. Thanks to you all, we'dlove to hear your thoughts about
(37:44):
school records about studentsteaching one another, or about
the lives of other remarkablechildren we think we should know
about. So tweet us at theChildren's Table Podcast. If
you'd like to see some images ofthe New York African free school
and James McCune Smith. Comecheck out Children's Table
Podcast on Instagram. Until nexttime, we'll see you at the
(38:07):
Children's table.
Guest speaker (38:08):
The Children's Table is written by Anna Mae,
Duane Kate Capshaw, and VictoriaFord Smith. They are grateful
for the assistance of CarlyWanner-Hyde who wears many hats:
editor, producer andcollaborator and creative
genius. Our theme music is byKen Comier. The podcast enjoys
(38:32):
the support of Green HouseStudios in the College of
Liberal Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Connecticut
Welcome to the Children's Table, a podcast
dedicated to the idea that youngpeople have always been
participants in history,inliterature in art and in
politics.
Victoria Ford Smith (00:13):
As three professors have spent our
careers studying the history andculture of childhood, we want to
share the questions we haveabout how adults have imagined
what childhood means, and howthose ideas have shaped the
lives of children, for betterand for worse.
Kate Capshaw (00:28):
Along the way, we will share the stories of some
brilliant, brave andgroundbreaking young people
we've gotten to know.
Victoria Ford Smith (00:36):
I'm Victoria,
Anna Mae Duane (00:38):
I'm Anna Mae
Kate Capshaw (00:39):
I'm Kate. And let's head to the children's
table.
Victoria Ford Smith (00:48):
Today's podcast is focusing on one
student at one school that wethink should be better known in
the history of the UnitedStates. This one little kid
prompts us to ask some bigquestions. Why do we know so
little about children inhistory? Is it because they
didn't do anything historicallyimportant? (hint: they did.) Or
is it because we don't trust therecords that children leave us?
(01:10):
As so often happens when weexamine our common- sense ideas
about children and childhood,we find that our assumptions
reinforce false, and evendamaging, ideas about who counts
as important, and whose ideas weshould take seriously.
Kate Capshaw (01:25):
So Anna Mae, who are we talking about today?
Anna Mae Duane (01:28):
Okay. I'm gonna set the stage. It's a September
day in 1824. An 11 year oldAfrican American boy is making
his way to the Five pointsneighborhood in New York City.
He has an appointment with theMarquis de Lafayette,
Revolutionary war hero, friendof Alexander Hamilton. And if
the crowds were any indication,the 19th century equivalent
(01:51):
about rock star. The child'sname is James McCune Smith; he
was born to an enslaved mother.
And thus, under the laws of NewYork City, technically insulate
himself. In spite of this start,young James goes on to become
the first African American toearn an MD. He would write the
introduction to FrederickDouglass' second autobiography.
And he would be a leader inrebutting the emerging racist
(02:14):
scientific arguments of theearly to mid 19th century. So
he's, he's amazing. But before Igo further, to add sort of what
we know about his adult life andhis later life, I want to stop
for a second and reflect aboutwhat we don't know about his
childhood, or the childhood oflots of other children in the
(02:35):
18th and 19th centuries. Whydon't we have more stories like
this of what children weredoing, what their days were,
like. Victoria, I know you'vedone a lot of work, researching
the lives of 19th centuryBritish children who we wouldn't
otherwise know about and weabsolutely need to know about.
So what are your thoughts aboutwhy we still have all these
(02:57):
surprises that when we find aremarkable child in history,
everyone's, oh, I had no ideathat this person was there. This
was something that we couldfind.
Victoria Ford Smith (03:09):
Yeah, I think one of the first reasons
we don't know a lot about thesekids--and I think all three of
us know this--is that learningabout them is really hard. So
traditionally, adults haven'tfound the lives of children
important enough to preserve inthe archives and what has been
preserved. those documents areabout really particular types of
(03:30):
children who are living inparticular contexts and
situations. So for example,often when you see an image of a
child, before the late 19thcentury, that child was probably
dead. I mean, now they'redefinitely dead because they
were in the 19th century, buteven at the time, they were
probably dead. Paintings werecommissioned by wealthy parents
(03:51):
to memorialize their lostchildren. And if you find
documents about a child in alibrary, or the archives of a
historical society, then moreoften than not, that kid was
really rich, or that kid wasrelated to a celebrity. So
wealthy families, or families ofwell known authors or artists,
(04:11):
other cultural figures, thosefamilies might donate materials
to local historical societies orarchives or universities. And
then later historians canrecover materials related to
childhood in particular fromthose family papers. So that
happens sometimes too. And thensometimes institutions like
(04:31):
schools or hospitals ororphanages keep records. And so
we'll have, you know, acollection of documents about
children, so assignments, orhealth records or, you know,
photographs of children who arepart of these organizations. But
for the most part, so unless afamily was marked by loss or
(04:54):
wealth or fame, or all of theabove, a lot of people just
didn't find it necessary. todocument the details of kids
lives/
Kate Capshaw (05:03):
Here, I mean, I think that's all really true.
It's it's so difficult,especially when you're thinking
about children who lived inspaces that weren't recognized
by, you know, schools orauthorities or wealth, to even
register the details of theirlives in any way. It's just
really hard. So I think we doneed to talk about, you know,
(05:23):
what gets preserved and whatappears in the archive,
especially, I mean, my ownresearch interest is in
communities of color. So, forinstance, in the 19th century,
the first black essayist isactually a 16 year old girl, Ann
Plato, who was a black girl andI did a lot of research trying
to find something about herchildhood. And what we found, in
(05:47):
addition to the book, isaccounts from white people who
were surveying her classroom,which when she was a student
teacher, and assessing her as ateacher. So it's really
interesting, what, what doesn'tappear in the archives?
Victoria Ford Smith (06:00):
Yeah, and I think that the idea of the
documents are about a child, butinterpreted by somebody else.
Like, I think that's somethingto really keep in mind. Like I
just started looking atdocuments of poor children from
the 19th century. And, you know,it's really famous guy, Dr.
Barnardo, who ran a lot ofcharitable organizations would
(06:21):
take photographs of thechildren, at his organizations,
but, you know, there's a lot oftalk like, well, he would make
them more ragged than they were,in order to present a particular
narrative of poor childhood,often, for benevolent reasons.
But so like, is this actually arecord of this child or not? I
think is a difficult question.
Anna Mae Duane (06:41):
Yes. I mean, it's so often it's whatever
narratives adults want us to seein the records of the children
that they're preserving. Andthat certainly is the case with
James McCune Smith, and hisschoolmates, right, we know
about them because they weredoing things that adults thought
were important and marked down.
Kate Capshaw (07:02):
So to recap, we see that if you were not from a
wealthy or historicallyprominent family, as Victoria
was discussing, chances are thatyour childhood would pass with
virtually no record left for usin the contemporary moment.
Maybe birth records, maybebaptismal records, but very
little trace of, of individualchildren. And if you were poor,
(07:26):
and especially if you were thechild of enslaved parents, or if
you were enslaved, both ofwhich, James McCune Smith was,
there's very little chance,right that historians will get
to know much about you,especially your childhood,
right? And so, we do have quitea bit of material about the
childhood of James McCune Smith,who did go on to become wealthy
(07:47):
and quite influential on theabolitionist movement, and in
the scientific conversations ofthe time. But in James's case, I
think this is important isbecause his position as a free
child, in a city poised to endslavery, placed him in the
middle of some of the nation'smost heated debates, and they
were carried out by some of thenation's most influential
political and historicalfigures.
Victoria Ford Smith (08:09):
Yeah, like, like Lafayette, so ao why was he
meeting the Marquis on the daythat you, you're talking about,
Anna Mae?
Anna Mae Duane (08:15):
This was part of Lafayette'a nationwide tour of
the country. It's 1824. Thecountry's coming up on its 50th
anniversary. There's lots ofanxiety about how we're going to
remember the origins and theRevolutionary era. And so he
gets invited back, and it justis incredibly exciting across
(08:38):
the country. He visits each ofthe American states at the time.
He travels 1000s of miles bystagecoach, horseback,
steamboat, the works everywherehe goes, there are crowds,
waving handkerchiefs and doingother various 19th century
things like being very excited(laughter). And they held
parades, they had militarysalutes and exercises. In
(09:02):
Philadelphia, for instance,there was a 6000 man military
parade to welcome him. If you'vebeen to Independence Hall, it's
partially so beautiful becausethey refurbished it because
Lafayette was coming
Kate Capshaw (09:15):
Was he played by daveed Diggs in this moment, or
no? ,
Anna Mae Duane (09:18):
In my mind, he is and everyone saying,
"Lafayette!" (laughter) and it'sreally fun. Yeah, so I mean, he
was this, you know, thistouchstone, this vision of what
the nation's ideals were, but ofcourse, he's also quite old. So
it's this really exciting momentof sort of looking back and
(09:39):
looking forward at the same timeand also, you know, historians
see it as one of the firstmoments of real celebrity
culture in the 19th century,like everyone wants to see him.
Victoria Ford Smith (09:50):
So this is like a huge deal. Why did James
McCune Smith, why was his schoolpart of this moment?
Anna Mae Duane (09:56):
Right this school and you know, lower
Manhattan-not the greatestneighborhood gets a visit from
Lafayette and James McCune Smithis the kid who gets to greet him
and say hello and welcome to theschool. For one thing, the
school had been created not toolong after the Revolution by
Lafayette's friend and colleagueand I'll not sing it, but it's
(10:18):
Alexander Hamilton, AlexanderHamilton and other members of
what was called the New YorkManumission Society, which was a
group of elite, powerful whitemen who were dedicated to
furthering anti-slavery laws.
Part of that conversation at thetime was this belief that school
was really important, thateducation was deeply important
(10:39):
for the process of manumission,
for for emancipation (10:44):
you couldn't have one without the
other. And, you know, once wereally start digging in on how
it was first imagined in thenorth, how anti slavery laws
were crafted, we see thatchildren, children like James,
were at the heart of the debateand really animated how they
were imagining what freedommight look like.
Kate Capshaw (11:05):
Now, when we look back across history, we kind of
think of anti-slavery laws asbeing pretty cut and dried. So
what what are you seeing aboutchildren at the heart of these
kind of complicated laws?
Anna Mae Duane (11:17):
Right, I think most of us think of the
Emancipation Proclamation, orlaws like that, that come much
later, where, you know, boom,everyone who was enslaved is
free. That isn't, that's not howit worked at all in the north at
first, almost. Massachusetts issort of an outlier. But states
like New York, New Jersey, theyput freedom in the future, they
(11:42):
free newborn children first. Sofor instance, in New York, the
law is anyone born after July4th on 1799. I believe, anyone
after that point is free. Ifyou're born before that point,
too bad, right? They're onlyinvested in the young. But of
course, the young aren't freedimmediately. Often, they have to
(12:05):
stay in enslavement, often totheir mid 20s. And the logic
behind this, I mean, there's onelogic in which it was that
everybody postponed the cost ofemancipation, right, everybody
got 25 more years of free labor.
But the philosophical argumentbehind it. What they said was,
the reason behind it was thatthey felt that freedom was
(12:25):
something you had to becultivated into, you had to be
educated into. If you had hadbad habits, by being in slavery
as if that was your fault,right. But you couldn't just be
free. It was it had to besomething that you were taught
to do that you had to sort oframp up to. Of course, this was
never applied to white children.
(12:48):
But that was the sense thatchildren were were all the
potential were children werewearable, the hope was and
children were also the testcase, right? This is going to be
the first generation how arethey going to manage it?
Victoria Ford Smith (13:03):
So how are children supposed to prove this?
Anna Mae Duane (13:07):
I mean. and now we're back to the New York
African free school and why he'smeeting Lafaytte. Lots of
schools in the 19th century, asschools do, to some extent
today, would have events ,wouldhave showcases the equivalent
today might be school plays ortalent showst. In the 19th
century these were a bigger dealpeople would come just for
(13:29):
something to do like it was partof your civic engagement is to
come by and see what the localschools were doing. Ben Franklin
talks about it, he would go to aschool and sort of see how the
youth were prospering.
Victoria Ford Smith (13:45):
That would be so creepy now, . . if you
just stopped by a school to see
Anna Mae Duane (13:50):
really what, Ben Franklin? I don't know. I don't
know. I mean, that's such aninteresting point with the
difference of sort of like, whatchild's schooling is who's who
it's for. There was definitely abigger sense that children had
to be used to public speaking,that was part of democracy. So
they had to get used to bigaudiences. And that, yeah, that
(14:11):
everyone was invested. And nowYeah, it would be so weird if
you just started.
Kate Capshaw (14:15):
Yeah, I mean, kids already feel a lot of pressure
when they're on the stage infront of just their families.
These kids must have feltextraordinary pressure, because
they were representing sort ofthe success of this freedom
project, as well, as you know,entertaining Ben Franklin and
Lafayette. There's a lot ofpressure on these guys.
Anna Mae Duane (14:35):
Absolutely. I can't . . I mean, and that's
where in terms of the records,we I have the record of what
James McCune Smith says to theMarquis de Lafayette. We don't
have any records of how he feltthat morning, or what he said to
his friends, which is you know,what I in some ways, I really
would like to know, but thepressure was amazing. They had .
(14:56):
. they called them examinationdays, which gives you the sense
of . . . it was a test and thesekids who are middle school aged,
James McCune Smith is 11 when hemeets when he greets the
Lafayette. Kids in the schoolwere basically from nine to 14.
And so you would have anyonefrom the neighborhood maybe Ben
Franklin stopping by. So he'sgone by 1824. But you know,
(15:18):
local politicians absolutelystopped by, local newspapers and
national newspapers would stopby, because it was a deep sense
that these children and whatthey were capable of, were a
leading data point or leadingpiece of evidence in debates
about freedom and education andthe nation's future. Just as one
(15:43):
example, in 1824, a newspapercalled the Commercial
Advertiser, runs a long pieceand it reproduces, which again,
like can you imagine, like theNew York Times reproducing
whatever speech was given at PS54. It's the equivalent of that,
that's how important that theyfelt this material was. And this
(16:04):
was the commentary. So theCommercial Advertiser runs a
long piece, after theperformances, saying that they
had "never seen a white schoolof the same age, where there was
more order, neatness of dress,and cleanliness of person." The
editor points out that there"had been a few Southern
gentlemen," that's the words heuses, in the audience and he
(16:26):
wishes that there had been moreright. But the implication that
Southern gentleman would beconvinced of the wrong of
slavery by watching these kids.
So yeah, the pressure isenormous. And they knew what
there's one moment in thearchives where one of the
younger kids talks about if Imess up, please don't hold it
against my race. When he's nineyears old, right?
Kate Capshaw (16:50):
Yeah, that's so tough.
Anna Mae Duane (16:51):
Yeah.
Kate Capshaw (16:51):
I mean, I remember in, in looking at Ann Plato's
school records or records whereshe was teaching, she's the
essayist, who's, you know, 16years old, and it's kind of a
student teacher in the, in theblack school in Hartford,
Connecticut. And the whiteexaminer comes in, and the
notes, obviously, are going tohave racial bias. And there's
they're charting how many kidswere absent and how many kids
(17:13):
are present, and reallypejorative ways. And then his
comment, and believe me, it'sbeen like 20 years since I
looked at this, but it struck meit's he said, they were well
behaved and they sang likeblackbirds. And I just felt
like, ugh, it's, it's so hard toescape, there's no escaping,
right? That racial bias from thewhite examiner of the crowd of
(17:35):
black children who areperforming, but this sounds like
very similar sorts of pressuresand expectations on this on this
group and even more because ofthe national spotlight with
Lafayette and, and just thelocation of the school.
Victoria Ford Smith (17:49):
I think to that, the idea that I noticed
when you were reading thatnewspaper account, Anna Mae,
was this idea of orderliness andcleanliness, too, which also has
these biases underneath it,right that How surprising it is
that these children are wellbehaved and clean.
Kate Capshaw (18:04):
Exactly.
Victoria Ford Smith (18:04):
And it seems almost, I mean, I haven't
read the entire account, right.
But I feel like there's oftenthese types of reports like an
emphasis more on behavior thanon academics, right, because the
idea that this is like a, adocile population, in a way, I
don't know if that's what'shappening here. But these are,
these are children who can bewell behaved and controlled and
(18:27):
orderly, right . . .
Anna Mae Duane (18:30):
Which is so much a part of it. The skits were
often written by the whiteadministrators. And often they
would be about things like whyit's important to come to school
on time and punctuality, andthey would give notices to the
parents about how they shouldbehave. So there was a lot, you
(18:51):
know, that these were the sortof well intentioned white
reformers.
Kate Capshaw (18:55):
(laughter) Can you imagine?
Anna Mae Duane (18:57):
The Failure of imagination! This is as good as
it got, that that's what theywere concerned about, like that
was part of what was requiredfor citizenship. But I think
also there's, this is, you know,coming up on Jacksonian America,
that's a big anxiety across theboard, right for immigrants and
(19:17):
for all these sort of newpeople. What, you know, how are
they going to deport themselves?
How are they going to manage thevote, right and have that kind
of political power? So it's bothI think, absolutely a racial
conversation, but it's also anongoing, larger conversation
about what do we need to trainchildren to do? And control is a
(19:37):
lot of it.
Kate Capshaw (19:41):
Yes, control and it's also documentation of, you
know, white benevolence andpatting themselves on the back
and things like that. So whatabout Lafayette and how did that
sort of performance of Americanback patting happen? (laughter)
How did that go?
Anna Mae Duane (20:00):
Well, by all accounts is a big success, the
speech James McCune Smith givesis, you know, three or four
sentences long and it's recordedthat Lafayette says "thank you
my dear child." And I can onlyimagine the crowd goes wild. But
it gets recorded three differenttimes in the records right they
keep writing and over and overin nicer penmanship. So there's
(20:22):
a real sense that this was ahistoric moment. You know,
again, it gives us a glimpse ofthis one moment. And when I came
across this, I had no idea whoJames McCune Smith was. And if
you didn't go on to be famousand fairly wealthy and well
known, I would never knowanything else about it. But it
was sort of these moments, itwas such an invitation to do
(20:44):
detective work, like what isgoing on here? Who is this kid?
Why would they ask him to meetthis revolutionary war hero and
sort of like digging there, yousort of uncovered more and more
of who he is. And I think one ofthe things, I realized that even
with all the, as we've sort ofdiscussed the bias and the
constraints around what, youknow, we're getting what they
(21:05):
say, on the examination days, wedon't get the notes that they
pass to each other in class. Butwe do still get a sense that
these middle school childrenwere players in national
conversations, were rubbing upagainst historical figures, you
know, of national importance,right? That they were part of
(21:29):
the conversation that . . Howmuch freedom they had to sort of
exert their own influence, wecan discuss, but they were still
there. Right, this conversationwas happening because of them.
Kate Capshaw (21:41):
It is totally fascinating in terms of their
visibility in that kind ofpunctual moment. And then sort
of the absence in the archivefor most of the people except
for if they became famous, likeJames McCune Smith, on growing
up. So we'll keep that in mindas we take a break.
Victoria Ford Smith (22:04):
So when we left James's school, the
students-- basically middleschoolers-- are demonstrating
their talents at a school eventthat received national attention
for examination day. But I'mcurious, Anna Mae. what
happened most of the time, likeevery other day of the year
where they weren't being visitedby these enormous historical
(22:25):
figures?
Anna Mae Duane (22:25):
Yeah, they had, and we do have some records of
this, again, from theschoolmaster, but they had a
curriculum that was reading andwriting and arithmetic. There
were classes in navigation forthe boys and classes and sewing
for the girls. So in some ways,a very standard curriculum, and
actually a pretty elite one,these kids were doing school
(22:47):
work that lots of kids acrossthe country weren't getting
close to. So they were theeducation itself was quite
remarkable. But one of thethings I find most exciting and
remarkable about this school,the more I dug into, it is not
necessarily what they weretaught in class, but how they
were taught it.
Kate Capshaw (23:04):
So what what do you mean by how they were
taught.
Anna Mae Duane (23:06):
So they used what was called a Lancasterarian
method, which I think I'vetalked about on other episodes,
cuz I'm obsessed with it. But itwas in vogue, towards the end of
the 18th century and throughoutthe first few decades of the
19th century. And the ideabehind this method is that
(23:28):
students should teach each otherthat someone has described it as
sort of an ongoing spelling bee,which one kid is designated as
the leader of a pod, right, agroup of five or six kids. So
you would compete to be amonitor, which is basically an
(23:49):
assistant teacher, and then youas assistant teacher are
responsible for getting yourgroup through that day's
lessons. And there were it wasvery synchronized, you would
sort of move around the classand do different things. But the
monitor at examination day, theywould have these really
elaborate sort of handwritingplaques, or they'd have these
(24:12):
really elaborate pieces of artthat would were dedicated to the
monitors, like the teller was ahuge honor, they would get
special badges or sashes sayingthat they were the monitor, but
they were assistant teachers.
And one of the things I think isremarkable about this is that
these kids who no one thought,right, again, they're poor.
(24:33):
They're black. They have nopolitical power. They're
technically--many of them--stillenslaved, but they're getting to
be leaders, right. They're theones teaching each other. And I
just think that that whetherthat was the school's intention
or not, was sort of thisremarkable democratic
distribution of power.
Kate Capshaw (24:53):
Do you have any sense of which children were
allowed to go to this school.
There have to be many, many moreenslaved and free children at
this time in that area. So doyou know how the kids ended up
there?
Anna Mae Duane (25:10):
it I mean, at its height, it had over 500
students on the rolls. So that'sbig. Yeah. And there was more
than one of these schools. JamesMcCune Smith went to African
Free School number two, butthere were like five of them.
But to answer your questionabout who was allowed to go, I
think a lot of it was word ofmouth. There was the first black
(25:35):
newspaper. Freedom's Journal wasa big recruiter and cheerleader
of the school. So they too,would publish the records of the
examination days, but they wouldalso reach out to parents, the
editors of that newspaper wouldalso go knock on doors. And
that's tricky, like historiansaren't quite sure what that
(25:56):
involves, because I've readaccounts in which knocking on
the doors was to sort ofevaluate whether students were
worthy. Whether their parentswere the right, yeah, yeah, a
lot of that, whether they werethe right sort of up and coming
family. But then I've read otheraccounts where they were really
recruiting people, and theyreally wanted kids in the door
(26:18):
for their own numbers, amongother things. So I don't know
how hard it was to get in, Ithink another, you know, real
limiting factor is that it's NewYork City, it's a tough
neighborhood. If you live toofar, you can't get to the
school, right? You don't havemoney for the public
transportation, such as it was,and often you're not allowed on
it. So you have to be walkingdistance from the school. So if
(26:42):
somehow your way uptown, youjust don't have access to the
school.
Kate Capshaw (26:45):
You have to have parents who can sacrifice your
presence for the school day.
That would be huge. Right?
Anna Mae Duane (26:51):
Yes. So yeah.
Victoria Ford Smith (26:53):
I mean, I'm interested to and, like, what
the Lancasterian and method doesfor kids and to kids, sort of
like I, in a way, I'm like, it'ssuper exciting, because it puts
children in positions of respectand authority, you know, it
within their child community,and also that's conferred by an
(27:14):
adult. But at the same time,it's definitely on the practical
level, if I understand itcorrectly, a way to just manage
a lot of children. And so it'slike, we don't have the
resources to have a teacher, foreveryone. And so you have to
(27:35):
like find a way to make childrenwork within the school space,
which is, you know, definitely adouble edged sword, I think.
Yeah,
Anna Mae Duane (27:45):
no, I mean, it was free labor. This was sort of
outsourced. It was alwaysdesigned for poor children. And
those are the schools it getsused in schools for indigenous
people out west, it gets used incolonial schools and South
America, the British colonies.
Yeah, absolutely. Right. And soit's both the free labor. And
you know, he would boast thatyou only need one school master
(28:07):
for school of 500 students. Andthat's in the records of the of
the school that that somebodycame to visit. And the school
was running like a Swissrailroad. And there was no, I
always joke that like the guywas in the bar. Was the school
principal that day? But whoknows, right? He wasn't
Victoria Ford Smith (28:28):
Can you imagine being the one adult?
Like, with 500 children?
Kate Capshaw (28:33):
And I've one last question about this. The
monitors, are they older thanthe people? They're the kids,
they're supervising? Are theythe same age, though? Like,
what? They're the same age?
Anna Mae Duane (28:44):
Yeah. No, and it was competitive, like you could
lose your spot. If somehow youyou know, whatever, test or, you
know, examination is happeningthat day, and a kid who's your
student does better than you,boom, he's the monitor.
Kate Capshaw (29:03):
Oh, wow.
Anna Mae Duane (29:04):
So there was also I mean, another part of
this, it's like, it's trainingfor capitalism, it's training
for factory labor, right? Thatyou have these, these sort of
autonomous, everyone knows theirjob, and they have to be trusted
to do it. And if someone elsecan do it better, then they get
your job.
Victoria Ford Smith (29:22):
I mean, you can start to imagine the
different types of relationshipsthat that would create among
children, right? Because in someways, it's like, I am invested
in your success, because itkeeps me where I am. If I'm a
monitor, like, I want you to dowell, because I want to remain
in charge, but also like thissort of competitive hope that
(29:45):
another child will not succeed,like it just creates these weird
emotional structures within aschool.
Kate Capshaw (29:52):
Yeah, yeah. I want to read about that. Where's the
record of that? Let's have themiddle schoolers who were the
mean, guys were the Heather's(laughter)
Anna Mae Duane (30:02):
Sorry, and it's Middle School. You know, that's
gotta be tough.
Kate Capshaw (30:06):
I mean, yeah.
Victoria Ford Smith (30:08):
I mean, who gets the sash? That's what
everyone wanted to know.
Everyone wants the monitor sash.
Anna Mae Duane (30:14):
Yes, they totally do. And there was also
he called it a class of merit,which I'm imagining is like, all
the monitors get their ownspecial award. Yeah, those are
the records that I really want.
But I do know that one of JamesMcCune Smith's classmates was
not a monitor, because he wasn'ta great student, he was kind of
a rebellious student. But hewould lead a group of which
(30:37):
James McCune Smith was a part,in which they would basically
make plans for what to do withtheir education. They were
organizing, okay, we're going toget our education, we're going
to go down South, and we'regoing to spread freedom in our
own way. So I do think rightthere is both this
competitiveness with each other,but also the sense that they're
(30:57):
willing to leave, or they sortof are practicing leadership,
and they're willing to look upto each other. Yeah, and make
their own plans.
Kate Capshaw (31:07):
I'm really interested in the school in
black schooling in general,during this period in terms of
prefacing the emergence of ablack middle class and this
commitment to education,especially in the south. That
happens later in the post CivilWar. So I think it's really
fascinating. And I know thatyou've talked a little bit about
(31:29):
what James McCune Smithaccomplished, right? Could you
remind us about his glories? Andare there anybody else who
achieved such glories afterattending this school?
Anna Mae Duane (31:39):
Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing again,
when I stumbled on theserecords, I was just looking for
like, " I want to look up kidsin history, and this is a school
so let me give it a try." Butthen, once I, you know, started
looking up these names, we haveJames McCune Smith, who again,
goes to the University ofGlasgow and gets an MD, no
African American had done it. Hehis friend, Henry Highland
(32:01):
Garnet, who again was sort oforganizing when he was 14 years
old, becomes a world famousorator. He speaks to 1000s of
people, he becomes the firstAfrican American to address the
House of Representatives. IraAldridge also went to the
school, I mean, just thisclassroom was amazing. And these
are all really within the same.
They knew each other, they kneweach other as kids, whether they
(32:22):
were in the exact same grade is.
.. I'm not clear about but IrAAldridge who was the first
American of any race, but he wasAfrican American, to play
Shakespeare in London. And hesort of tours Europe throughout
and was famous throughoutEurope. And then there's other
people like Alexander Cromwell,who W.E.B. Dubois talks about
(32:48):
meeting, he was the statesman,he was also an orator and
administer the girls that wentto this school. And this is we
haven't talked about this,right, another limit on getting
the records or the lives ofchildren in history, excavated
is gender, both because the oddsof them going on to be being
(33:09):
famous in their own right ismuch smaller, but also because
of name changes, but the ones Ihave been able to trace often
went into careers in educationthemselves. So you know, there's
artists, there's collegeadministrators, it's just an
incredible class of studentsthat come out of here.
Kate Capshaw (33:27):
So this returns to question I asked earlier, is
this typical? Like, why do youthink the school is producing so
many exceptional people?
Anna Mae Duane (33:36):
Yeah I mean, I've, I still wonder about that.
Because there were otherremarkable schools for African
American students and Boston andPhiladelphia and other places, I
think it is partially the systemand how they taught each other
and relied on each other asleaders. But I also think, you
know, it might be just one ofthose, you know, let you think
(33:58):
of sort of the Revolutionaryera, and you just had sort of
this incredible rash ofbrilliant people showing up all
at once. And that seemed to bewhat was happening with this
school, a combination of the waythey, they they served each
other, but also, maybe anawareness that you were the
first generation to inheritfreedom, and that you need to
make the most of it, I think wasalso part of it. But again, that
(34:21):
was the case, all over theNortheast. So I just think they
were remarkable. And I thinktheir friendship was a big part
of helping each other succeed.
Victoria Ford Smith (34:30):
I love that too. Because often when we think
about famous people as kids, wethink of them as these like,
remarkable individuals who aredifferent from everyone around
them. Right, this idea thatJames McCune Smith was great
from the beginning and went onto achieve great things. But the
picture of the African freeschool that you're suggesting is
(34:51):
more like no, these were kidswho were working together and
collaborating and learningtogether and supporting one
another. And so it just makesmakes me think that for every
child that we can find in thearchive who becomes remarkable,
they were surrounded often byother young people who helped
make that happen, who we can'tsometimes can see, and sometimes
(35:12):
can't.
Kate Capshaw (35:13):
Yeah, I agree with that so much, especially in
terms of your comment earlierAnna Mae about gender, that
there are so many reallyspectacular individuals in
history who have been lost orerased or, or don't register in
the archive in the way thatsometimes boys do.
Anna Mae Duane (35:29):
Totally. Yeah.
And I think, you know, perhapsmore positive things we can take
from this is that children, evenif you can't find them in the
archives, right, that, in someways, this is a remarkable
cohort. But it's another exampleof how young people support one
another, are very aware of theirpolitical power, or are very
aware of being kept frompolitical power and are willing
(35:51):
to organize to develop more. AndI think we have, in our own
moment, there seems to be thissurprise, when we see people
like Greta Thunberg, or MariCopney, who is an advocate for
clean water in Flint, and shestarted I think she was like 11,
or 12. She's a presence onTwitter. . That somehow, oh,
this is a new thing, kids today,what's happening, you know, and
(36:15):
this is big backlash. But Ithink, looking at this school,
and again, that is, you know,you both pointing out with this
collective of youth organizingand youth leadership and
cooperation is something thathas been there, and we just
haven't known how to look forit, or historians haven't
thought it was important. Or,again, we think of sort of the
(36:37):
history as the end result. Soyou know, if it if they win the
argument, or if they becomefamous, then it's important. And
I don't think we do enough to,to sort of look at the social
history of childhood and the waythat that shapes whether or not
they become famous, or whetheror not they win their arguments
that shapes the conversationshapes what's possible, right?
(37:01):
The school closes down by 1833.
And they go on to other things.
But that moment, I think, led todevelopments in abolitionist
history, right? Because theytalked to each other as children
as political agents, they werethat much more capable of making
political change both aschildren and later on.
Kate Capshaw (37:24):
Yeah, that's just it's just a fascinating story
Anna Mae, thank you for yourwork on James McCune Smith and
her introducing us to thisimportant school in this
community of children who arereally, you know, helping to
shape reshape the world. So Ithink it's just a wonderful
story. Thanks to you all, we'dlove to hear your thoughts about
(37:44):
school records about studentsteaching one another, or about
the lives of other remarkablechildren we think we should know
about. So tweet us at theChildren's Table Podcast. If
you'd like to see some images ofthe New York African free school
and James McCune Smith. Comecheck out Children's Table
Podcast on Instagram. Until nexttime, we'll see you at the
(38:07):
Children's table.
Guest speaker (38:08):
The Children's Table is written by Anna Mae,
Duane Kate Capshaw, and VictoriaFord Smith. They are grateful
for the assistance of CarlyWanner-Hyde who wears many hats:
editor, producer andcollaborator and creative
genius. Our theme music is byKen Comier. The podcast enjoys
(38:32):
the support of Green HouseStudios in the College of
Liberal Arts and Sciences at theUniversity of Connecticut
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