Colleges and universities with roots and ties in the Church of Christ community have a strong history of seeking and welcoming international students to their campuses. Many of them see this as essential to their Christian mission to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Gospel of Matthew 28:19).
Rapid changes to federal policies, however, may be keeping some international students out of the United States and out of the Church of Christ colleges and universities they want to attend.
In this episode, one of The Christian Chronicle's 2025 interns, Kenzie James, talks about a recent story she reported on how federal policies are affecting these students and the colleges and universities that want to enroll them. She also talks about what it's like to be a college student herself, making plans for a career in journalism (in these wild times for journalists).
Link to an archive of Kenzie James's stories for The Christian Chronicle
Link to Kenzie James's true crime podcast, Case Closed
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:19):
Thank you.
My years of working innonprofit community development,
one of the questions I'velearned to insist that we answer
in any planning or strategymeeting is this one what are the
unintended consequences?
We need to take a good longlook at how what seems like a
good idea could lead toconsequences that are not good
or useful for our overallmission.
(00:40):
Once we have a handle on whatwe think could go wrong, we need
to weigh it against what couldgo right and ask the hardest
question Is the risk of whatcould go wrong worth what could
go right?
Jesus might call this countingthe cost.
Surveys show that nationalsecurity secure borders in
particular is of utmostimportance to many of those who
(01:02):
claim Christianity, especiallythe ones that researchers place
in the evangelical Christiansegment of the US population.
That segment includes those ofus in the Church of Christ.
This is one of the biggestreasons that evangelical
Christians report supporting thenew administration in
Washington DC.
That administration has beentrue to its word, fast-tracking
(01:23):
new federal policies with theintention that they will keep
the wrong people from enteringthe country.
But as with almost anything inthe public sector, there are
what could be unintendedconsequences.
For example, the ChristianChronicle recently reported how
new federal policies areaffecting international students
who want to get their educationat colleges and universities in
(01:45):
our Church of Christ heritage.
Some students who want to getto the United States to enroll
at these schools are now unable.
The reporter who wrote thatstory is Kinsey James, a senior
multimedia journalism major atHarding University in Searcy,
arkansas.
Kinsey is a native ofTallahassee, florida, and was
one of our two summer interns atthe Christian Chronicle this
(02:05):
year.
The other was Andrew Renaud,who you heard a few times this
summer as he recorded newsupdates that we played at the
top of our podcasts.
Kinsey is back at school forher senior year, but taking time
out to talk to us today.
Kinsey, hello.
Kenzie James (02:18):
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (02:19):
Okay, so a few episodes back, we had the
Christian Chronicle's ownincoming managing editor, calvin
Cockrell, and outgoing managingeditor Audrey Jackson I think
Calvin is 30 years old andAudrey is still in her 20s and
we kind of have joked about how,if a young person considers a
career in journalism these days,her parents are likely to say
are you crazy?
(02:39):
You're going to starve.
So I mean, if you're lookingfor stable employment and you
want to make a lot of money, Idon't think anybody's going to
tell you to give journalism atry.
So why are you at least open tojournalism, Kenzie?
What is the big draw for youtoward that career path?
Kenzie James (02:56):
Yes, well, right off the back.
I don't know, maybe my parentsare on the extreme of this, but
they never said that to me whenI told them I wanted to go to
journalism.
They've always been extremelysupportive of what I wanted to
do, so very grateful to them forthat Journalism.
Honestly, I started in highschool because I just wanted to
tell people stories, and that'sbeen.
The big draw for me is justmaking sure people's stories are
(03:19):
represented, that their storiesare told, because there's so
many cool stories out there thatare just really inspirational.
It's inspirational for me tolearn about, to report on, to
see people's passion for thingsand to really see the ministry
and how God works through themin the community.
But on the serious side,there's stuff that people just
(03:40):
need to know, whether it belegal or court cases or
government, just anything thathappens.
There's big things that justneed to know, whether it be
legal or court cases orgovernment, just anything that
happens.
Like there's big things thatpeople need to know that a lot
of times doesn't get reported on, and so that's just part of the
draw, for that is making surepeople are aware of information
they need to make decisionsabout how to interact with other
people.
BT Irwin (04:01):
Can you tell us about the first story?
You ever not like story story,but uh like what's the first
time you put on your reporterhat and went out and reported a
story on something oh gosh, umbaby.
Kenzie James (04:18):
high school yearbook was actually how I got
into journalism and just doingstories.
I did a lot of club storiesjust featuring some of the
different clubs around campus,but here at Harding I think the
first one I did was the firstbig one I did was Relay for Life
.
I was an assistant producer atthat point and I told my advisor
(04:39):
, who is the staff supervisorfor HCCN, that I wanted to do a
package about Relay for Life.
It's a fundraiser, all-nightfundraiser we do here.
I'm sure you're familiar withit.
Being a Harding alum, I canmake a joke here about curfew.
BT Irwin (04:58):
if you like, go for it .
All-night fundraiser.
Harding University curfew yes,people would sign out and sit
down on the front lawn all night.
Kenzie James (05:03):
Go for it All night fundraiser Harding
University curfew.
Yes, but I'd like people wouldsign out and sit down on the
front lawn all night which dothey actually, who knows.
But so I did that with one ofmy friends who was a reporter at
the time, and so we did kind ofa look live shot to where I
reported videos of her andhearing people on the front lawn
just reporting about what wasgoing on around us.
(05:24):
So that's kind of the first bigstory I did here.
BT Irwin (05:29):
Well, speaking of stories that you've written, you
got to spend your summer as anintern in a real award-winning
newsroom, at the ChristianChronicle.
How did that experience openyour eyes or surprise you?
Kenzie James (05:43):
Wow, it was an incredible experience.
I mean just the great staff,great people there.
I built great relationshipswith all of them and learned a
lot from everybody at the office.
I think the biggest way itchanged was my writing.
Honestly, when I'm editing nowand writing my stories, I can
still bobby and audrey's voicesin my head yeah, um and just.
(06:05):
And my brain will just go, oh,that's going to get edited out
or they're going to change it tosay this instead, um, so that's
just a little bit of a comedicbit, that kind of developed out
of the summer.
Um.
But honestly, the biggest thingwas it strengthened my feature
writing.
Um, I tend to write a lot ofhard news just working for hu
HG16, the broadcast here.
(06:26):
That's very hard, very fast.
You only have four sentences tosay the most important
information.
So it really is expanding mystorytelling skills with that.
But also a big lesson I learnedwas in that viewing those big
hard events through the lens ofone person's story, and the big
one with that.
An example was the Texas floods.
(06:47):
So I did a story on HenselYouth Christian Camp and Andrew
did one on Camp Bandino.
And so just really looking atthis big event but instead just
giving them the facts of.
This is what happened.
This is how many people werehurt.
It's taking the story of howare these people affected and
(07:08):
then expanding it to the biggerpicture, and that just really
changed how I view those events.
BT Irwin (07:13):
Yeah, can we go?
Let's go back to editing forjust a second here, because this
is something that people thatconsume news maybe never ever
think about.
They may assume that a reporterjust writes a story and puts it
out there and that's that.
But I had my first experiencewriting a story for the
Christian Chronicle just thismonth and it was fascinating to
(07:35):
see it go through the editingprocess.
So you said you can hearAudrey's and Bobby's voices in
your head now when you'rewriting stuff.
Can you give our non-newsreporter listeners an idea of
something you learned aboutediting this summer working at
the Christmas Chronicle?
Kenzie James (07:52):
Yeah, so one of the big pieces was just working
with.
The big thing about news that Ilearned this summer was person
first.
It's always been person firstand I've known that.
But just applying it to eventhat different level.
So there is one like my introarticle.
Actually I hate writing aboutmyself, health, and so I was
(08:18):
just thought one of the hardestparts for me is just making it
not sanitized.
And that was the big thing.
As I went in with Audrey, shewas like, yeah, it's good, but
we can make it much lesssanitized and just like,
completely get that, get yourvoice and your personality into
the writing.
And then the big one, likeBobby, doesn't like the word.
It.
BT Irwin (08:33):
Bobby doesn't like the word it.
Kenzie James (08:39):
In stories, like using that as a noun.
So it's like you write a storyor you write a sentence and then
end it, and then you start thenext sentence, still talking
about the same subject, butusing the word it.
No, it gets ended out everytime.
So that was one that I justautomatically not that it's like
taken out of my vocabularycompletely, but I definitely
don't use it nearly as much whenwriting.
BT Irwin (08:59):
All right, so this is a true story.
I went to Harding University inthe 1990s.
I was an advertising minor, soI had to take a bunch of.
I took journalism and PRclasses there and I had Dr Jack
Schock, who is still there atHarding, and one of the words to
(09:20):
this day that I do not use isthe word there T-H-E-R-E there.
I don't remember why, but it wasdrilled into my head don't ever
use the word there in a storythat you write, and so anything
I have written for 20 somethingyears now does not have the word
(09:40):
there in it, because of thatclass at Harding University,
true story.
So you mentioned a couple ofstories that you reported over
the summer.
Tell us which.
You wrote quite a few actually.
There's going to be a link inthis podcast to your archive.
You wrote a lot of stories forone summer, so can you tell us
(10:03):
which stories impacted you themost?
Kenzie James (10:13):
I'm not completely dead yet.
I think one of the biggest oneswas the campus ministry
conference.
I drove down to Denton, texas,just outside of Dallas, and
reported on that live, went tothe conference, interviewed
people there and that was a hugeexperience.
Just to be on ground reportingfor newspaper, because a lot of
(10:41):
the stuff we do here sometimeswe'll go to the events, but a
lot of the times you're writingit before or after the event.
Yeah, um, so the chance to bethere in the moment and just
like take down observationsabout it was really cool.
And also just traveling alonefor like work experience.
That's the first time I've everdone like a work trip like that
yeah so just personally, thatwas a huge learning curve.
There's one that hasn't beenpublished yet about a coffee
shop in Oklahoma and that onewas just fun.
(11:04):
That one was one of my favoritestories.
Just to see the ministry of thefounders and the executive team
and their passion for themission that they do was truly
just like really inspiring, justenergizing.
Andrew was actually with me forthose interviews and he took
our photos and also helped askquestions and had that
(11:27):
conversation, but just we bothcame away really inspired and
energized to go write that storyand tell the story of that
coffee shop.
So I'm really excited forpeople to see that one.
And then the the biggest one ofthe other big ones is actually
what we're going to talk abouttoday is the international
policies.
Yeah, um, one of my biginterests and just kind of like
(11:49):
side hobbies is, um, likereading is true crime and so
just deeping, just deep divewith the research and all that.
I love doing all the research.
So when I got this story, itwas just really fun to dive into
.
It's also just such animportant story that a lot of
people are like all this stuffis going on but we don't really
(12:10):
know what it means or how itaffects us.
BT Irwin (12:12):
Yeah, I want to get into that story in a minute, but
before I do I want to circleback to you're a multimedia
journalism major and you justreferenced true crime.
Christian Chronicle readers wholike read every story we put
out know that you did a truecrime podcast.
People who listen to this showmay not know that, so I bet we
(12:35):
have some true crime fans whoare listening to this.
So could you tell us aboutmaking an actual true crime
podcast?
What went into that and how didit turn out?
Kenzie James (12:50):
Yeah, it was for a class so I had about a month to
put together, where a lot oftrue crime podcasts will take
multiple months, so I wasalready kind of on an
abbreviated schedule with that.
That definitely added to thestress of making sure I got all
the information but also gettingit all right.
I reported on a cold case and aclosed case here in White
(13:12):
County over in Waldbaum and justthere's some circumstantial
evidence connecting the cases.
They were both murders of highschool girls so it was a very
heavy, very interesting topic tolearn about.
But also I just kind of alongthe same lines with the cold
case, like their stories thefull story was never completely
(13:35):
told, like there's just a lot ofinformation we still don't know
.
So just really being able tohelp tell their stories a little
bit more to keep that memory ofthe girls.
But it was fun I brought acouple of my friends onto the
podcast to read it with me, tokind of do a cold read, just so
I could get to see theirreactions and just like how
people's minds process this,because at that point I kind of
(13:58):
already knew everything.
But it was cool to see peoplestart from scratch and try to
build the case with me and Ialways said it helped them.
But it was good.
I think for the first time itturned out pretty okay.
I was happy with how the storyturned out.
The audio, some of thetechnical sides of it, aren't
exactly my strengths.
I'm definitely much more on thestorytelling.
(14:20):
That's why I'm in printjournalism yeah yeah, but um, I
don't, I mean, I don't thinkit's half bad, so I'm not
telling people to go listen toit, but if there are true crime
listeners and they're interestedin stories from arkansas,
they're welcome to go listen toit.
It's on spotify and YouTube.
BT Irwin (14:35):
We'll link it anyway.
It's called Case Closed right?
Yes, All right, Everybody gocheck out Kenzie's True Crime
Podcast Case Closed right afteryou're done listening to this.
Okay, so back to the last storythat the Christian Chronicle
published from you prior torecording this episode.
It's a story that rings all thebells for what we in the news
(14:57):
business call relevant andtimely.
You reported on how changes tofederal policies and the
execution of those policies isaffecting international students
who want to enroll and study atcolleges and universities in
our Church of Christ heritage.
How did this story come aboutfor you?
Kenzie James (15:15):
I honestly don't even remember.
We were sitting in a meeting inJune.
It was just after our Junedeadline, so we had just gotten
the July edition off the press.
Andrew and Audrey and I wentinto Bobby's office.
Andrew and I were kind of weneeded more story ideas to keep
looking into, and so we werejust sitting down going through
stories that people hadsubmitted to the Chronicle, just
(15:38):
kind of talking about the bignews events of the time and
looking for that Church ofChrist connection to could we
report on it.
And somehow I don't rememberwho brought it up I think it was
Audrey but we started talkingabout the countries being banned
because of that list.
At that point in time MarcoRubio had released a list of 36
(15:59):
countries that could be bannedif they didn't make some
adjustments to their security,and so we were talking about it.
And then it just kind ofsnowballed into the idea of well
, how is this affecting collegestudents with visas?
Because a lot of thosecountries their visas were also
restricted for who could comeinto the US.
And then I started thinkingabout well, harding has a
(16:20):
program that goes into Zambiaand Zambia is on that list.
So I was just kind of curiousabout looking into seeing how
other Christian universitieswere affected.
Were students being affected bythis?
And so Bobby and Audrey kind ofgave us the green flag to run
with it and we did it for awhile.
I actually didn't get a lot ofresponses back from the
(16:41):
universities and so I didn'teven know that there was going
to be a story, because that'swho there's still be impacted.
But if no one's going to talkto me about it, there's only so
much I can do.
And then I got off the phonewith I don't remember which one
it was, but one of theuniversity's primary designated
(17:02):
officials, their PDSO, and I gotoff the interview and I looked
at Andrew and I said there's astory here and I don't care how,
like.
I don't know how long it'sgoing to take, but we're going
to find it and we're going totell it.
BT Irwin (17:14):
So let's talk about that story as it unfolded and
again it will be linked in theshow notes to this episode you
interviewed, I think.
In the story you said youreached out to 14 colleges and
universities and it seems likeyou were able to interview maybe
not all of them, but quite afew of them, and there were
officials.
There are officials, it seemslike and this is where the
(17:37):
education curve comes in forpeople in our audience.
It seems to me like a collegeor university has to designate a
certain official to work withinternational students and
getting them into the countryand onto campus, and so those
are the officials that youinterviewed for the story.
Kenzie James (17:57):
Is that right?
Yes, for most of theuniversities A couple of them I
talked to the head ofinternational education, but I
did try to speak to theofficials, mostly because
they're the ones who deal withthe I-24s and the visas and all
the paperwork to get studentshere.
BT Irwin (18:15):
So a lot of times they're that first line of
contact for those students atthe university.
They're that first line ofcontact for those students at
the university.
Yeah, so what?
The gist?
The headline of the story isthat international students that
either have been coming toschool in the United States or
want to come to school in theUnited States at one of these
Church of Christ colleges oruniversities, some of them were
not able to get into the country, or getting into the country
(18:35):
was delayed, which means theywould miss the start of the
school year.
So could you break it out forus?
First of all, what federalpolicy you mentioned that 36
countries were banned unlessthey improved their security
policies, or something like that.
What is the federal policy inplay here?
(18:56):
How is its execution affectingthese international students?
Kenzie James (19:00):
So there's actually a lot of federal
policies in place.
I'm just going to kind of startyou back at the beginning of
the year and walk through theones that are affecting the
Christian universities.
There are a lot in play, that alot are affecting public
universities.
We see the names like Harvardand Columbia in the news that
have a much bigger impact, butthat doesn't directly affect the
Christian universities.
(19:20):
So it all kind of started inJanuary when President Trump
re-entered office.
He revoked a policy from theBiden administration that the
ICE agents were not allowed oncollege campuses, churches and
some other locations that werekind of off-limits.
(19:41):
So President Trump's executiveorder revoked that so ICE agents
could go on campus.
And that's what we saw a lot ofthis spring, with students
getting their visas revoked,their international forms,
getting those canceled or denied.
And then we also saw a lot ofstudents were deported.
(20:02):
That was just all over thecountry, not at the Christian
universities were deported.
That was just all over thecountry, not at the Christian
universities.
There were two students over atOklahoma Christian in Oklahoma
City whose visas were revoked inApril and they were eventually
restored.
So as far as I know, thosestudents are still on campus.
But that was kind of the onlymajor effect with the Christian
(20:23):
universities we saw lastsemester.
So then come May the Departmentof State sent out a memo to all
of the consulates and embassies,pausing visa appointments, and
they said, hey, we're working onsome new vetting policies for
applicants.
Don't make any moreappointments, We'll let you know
when you can resume.
That was the gist of the memowith that and they sent a press
(20:46):
release out and then somehowsome newspapers got a leaked
cable just with a little bit ofmore of that information.
So then in the middle of thatpause, President Trump sent out
an executive order banning 12countries from entering the US
and then seven were restrictedwith whose visas could come in,
and a lot of those were thestudent visas and the business
(21:09):
visas were not allowed to comeback into the US.
And a lot of those citationscame from the overstay report
saying that immigrants ornon-immigrants who were visiting
the US on these visas werecoming into the country and then
staying longer than they wereallowed to, and just nobody was
catching it until they left whenwe had that documentation.
So that's what he said with alot of those, and then we didn't
(21:34):
really have many countriesaffected with that with students
at the Christian campuses, butthat's just kind of the basis
for that.
And then visa appointmentsresumed early mid-June and
another Department of Statecable was sent out to embassies
saying applicants' social mediahas to be made public.
And that was the big thing withvetting policy is now the
(21:57):
agents who are looking intoapplicants for visas go through
social media Just for any redflags.
There's not really a clear listthat was revealed of what
they're looking for, but justwhatever red flags when they're
like, hey, this person shouldprobably shouldn't come in,
they're now looking for that onInstagram, TikTok X, Facebook,
whatever social media that theapplicants have.
(22:19):
And that was a big thing.
But with that the visaappointments were also resumed.
But at this point there hadbeen a three-week delay of no
appointments, so that reallypushed a lot of students off.
And then Marco Rubio releasedthat cable with the 36 countries
and said, hey, there'ssomething that needs to be
(22:41):
changed here.
I looked into just kind of alot of the US relations with
those countries and it couldhave been like security.
It could be anything fromterrorism to just make how they
verify their identificationReally just a lot of things that
the US security was kind ofwary of that.
Ruby have said, hey, take 60days to implement any of these
(23:05):
two, or else you could be atrisk of being banned or
restricted like these other 19countries.
And that 60-day period actuallyended mid-August.
BT Irwin (23:14):
Okay.
Kenzie James (23:14):
So we are past that period at any point.
I looked shortly after thatperiod and there were no other
countries added to therestrictions list.
Whether that's happened now orcould happen, I have no idea,
but that time period, that graceperiod of hey start making
changes, is up, so we could beseeing more action in the future
.
(23:35):
The biggest thing that happened,though, was the visa delays,
and with that three week pause,a lot of students coming into
the US to attend Christiancolleges for the first time
could not get appointments untilmid-August, november.
Even Some of the officials atthe schools are telling me that
their students the firstavailable appointment was
(23:57):
mid-fall, and so I asked I waslike well, what does that mean
for them?
And students are allowed tocome in until they can get that
visa interview.
So they can't that visainterview, so they can't start
the semester.
So if they had an appointmentlike end of August or September,
I did talk with some of thePDSOs and they said students
still have to wait till January,just citing culture shock,
(24:20):
wanting to set the students upfor success, because trying to
come in in the middle of thesemester for the first time,
struggling to catch up inclasses, you're already a couple
weeks behind.
On top of culture shock andadjusting to a new culture for
the first time, the officialsdecided it's better for you to
transition at the semester andjust come in next semester, and
(24:41):
that's where a lot of them areoffering online classes.
A lot of them are offeringonline classes.
Some of the school, likeOklahoma Christian, has a
program in Rwanda for studentswho are stuck there to start
taking classes until they canmake it over to campus.
But the big thing is onlineschool doesn't require a visa,
so they don't need an F or a Jvisa to start taking classes
(25:03):
online.
So they can start online andthen just transition at the
early semester that they can getback into the US.
BT Irwin (25:09):
When students from other countries want to come to
the United States, theyobviously have to get a visa to
be here.
Is that something they have torenew each school year?
Kenzie James (25:21):
Yes, I don't know the exact timing, but I do know
that there is a renewal process.
One of I think it was itmight've been Freed Hardman One
of them one of the officialsrather was telling me about a
student who went home for thesummer and was trying to get his
visa renewed, but they wouldn'tapprove it.
Even though he's already beenin the country, they wouldn't
(25:42):
let him back in.
BT Irwin (25:43):
Yeah, and these visas- .
Kenzie James (25:44):
So it kind of depends.
So these visa interviews, theseare interviews the students have
with federal agents, from whatthe department of state yes, so
students will go through theapplication process and then
make an appointment with theconsulate or the embassy in
their country and the officialsthere with I don't remember it
(26:13):
might be Customs and BorderPatrol or Immigration and
Customs and whatever governmententity is over those in those
countries.
For the US They'll go in andmake an appointment with the
agent and then that is the nextstep to then vetting, to then
get approved for a visa.
BT Irwin (26:25):
And it sounds like the countries that there are.
You gave us several numbershere.
There was an executive orderbanning 12 countries and
restricting seven countries.
That was back earlier in thesummer and then it sounds like
the most recent the Secretary ofState.
There were 36 countries thatwere banned and the impetus
(26:48):
there is security right, it'snational security.
Kenzie James (26:50):
So these the they have not been banned yet.
They're at risk of being bannedif they don't make changes to
improving their securitymeasures.
BT Irwin (26:58):
Got it, and so students from these countries
are the ones that are havingtrouble getting their visas to
come study.
And yes, we actually.
Kenzie James (27:06):
I don't remember what all this are the ones that
are having trouble getting theirvisas to come study.
Yes, we actually I don'tremember what all these
countries are from.
A lot of the officials didn'tspecifically mention countries
that students were from.
I only had a few examples ofthat.
It was just, but I think someof them were just because some
schools, like Harding, we have alot of students from African
countries and there's a lot ofAfrican countries on that list.
(27:29):
Thankfully, harding has not.
BT Irwin (27:43):
And I spoke with, actually, our international
education about this that, asfar as we know, countries or is
it students that have, say,they've gone to school for two
years and they're coming backfor their third year and now
they're not able to get into thecountry because they're trying
to get a visa for the first time.
Kenzie James (28:04):
There is that one example that I mentioned earlier
of a student who went home andwas trying to get his visa
renewed and he couldn't.
But a lot of internationalstudents also stay in the US
over the summer and they'reeither working or they have
internships tour.
Some of them just don't leave,so they don't have to get their
visa renewed unless they were togo home or their visa expires.
(28:27):
But if they're already here ona valid visa, then that isn't a
problem.
BT Irwin (28:33):
Is there anything in particular that they're looking
for when they look at thesestudent applicants' social media
Like?
(28:56):
Have there been any kind ofguidelines that are released?
Kenzie James (28:58):
about.
These are the red flags thatwould make someone a national
security risk if we let theminto the country.
Versus family photos.
There is a list I don't haveaccess to it, as far as I could
find that was not leaked to thepress A lot of it a couple
examples I could find are thingsmaybe like anti-Semitism or
affiliations with terrorists, orjust posting about protesting
or ideologies that areanti-American or line up with
(29:19):
terrorist organizations or justkind of a red flag of then the
security is like maybe weshouldn't let this person into
this country if they have tiesto this group.
But that list was neverreleased and it's still pretty
tightly under wraps with thegovernment, so people can't.
I guess.
I don't know, maybe peoplecan't like scrub their social
(29:40):
media or anything, but they'vehad released it.
BT Irwin (29:44):
So do you get any sense of how many international
students this is affecting atcolleges and universities in our
Church of Christ circles, andhow many colleges and
universities said that they'rehaving to deal with this on some
level?
Kenzie James (30:00):
Yeah, I think all of them that have international
programs are experiencing it tosome degree.
There were a couple I spokewith that don't have
international programs yet, soobviously they're not feeling
the ramifications.
It really depends on the sizeof the school and their
international program.
Some of them, some of thesmaller schools, if they only
(30:22):
have a handful of students, theyare still experiencing it, but
not to the scale of a largerschool that might have um a
hundred or a couple hundredstudents, or maybe some of those
are experiencing it.
I think, trying to think of allthe numbers, I think a lot of
them on average were maybe like20 to 30, like definitely under
(30:42):
50, for most of them were just asmaller group because it is
mostly just this incoming classthat's affecting it and not
necessarily all the returningstudents.
So it's just a matter of howmany international students are
coming in for the first time andhow many of them had their quiz
delayed.
BT Irwin (30:59):
So you spoke to the people at these colleges and
universities whose job it is tohelp international students get
onto campus and enroll inclasses, and so did you get a
sense from them that this is ahiccup like this is just an
adjustment that's happening witha new administration and things
will normalize, or did you geta sense from them that it could
(31:22):
be more difficult in the future?
Or, you know, maybe they can'teven predict what's going to
happen in the future with theirinternational programs.
What kind of things did theyshare with you about how their
jobs are going and how theythink their jobs are going to
change in the years ahead?
Kenzie James (31:38):
It's honestly a mix of all of it.
I don't think per se their jobsare going to change very much.
We didn't really talk aboutthat.
(32:01):
A lot of it depends on theadministration, because we at
who gets elected to be in office.
A lot of them do think thatthey haven't seen this exactly
before, but there have beenissues or problems like holdups
like this, to where most of themare not worrying because it's
not affecting them on a largescale.
It's just kind of acase-by-case basis.
(32:24):
But one of the officials I spoketo said that he reached out to
the.
It was the program that is overall the documents that students
have to apply for, like theI-20 and all their forms to come
into the US.
He reached out to them and theysaid we don't know anything, we
don't know what's going on, andso there is a little bit of
(32:46):
uncertainty when those entitiesaren't getting information.
So the officials don't know howto help their students.
In some cases if they havequestions, the people above them
don't even have answers.
So most of them did think thatit would just kind of calm down.
I interviewed them all over thesummer so most students weren't
(33:06):
on campus, so a lot of themwere anticipating a little bit
more communication and strugglewith the semester starting in
August, but after that theydidn't seem too worried at the
moment that it would be longterm.
But as we've seen with some ofthese policies, we can see
anything change very quickly.
BT Irwin (33:25):
Last question here.
Let's talk about you.
You're a senior, so you're inyour last year there at Harding.
What do you hope is next foryou after your big summer at the
Christian Chronicle, your lastbig year at Harding?
Where do you hope you land next?
Kenzie James (33:40):
I honestly have no idea.
I don't graduate until nextDecember and December 26.
I'm actually going to graduatea semester earlier than my
projected track so I haven'treally thought about where
exactly I want to go.
I know I want to go to anewspaper and there's a couple
ideas I have of what I want todo.
(34:02):
Like dream job would be travel,Like Audrey.
I know a couple episodes agoyou guys talked about how she
traveled to 18 countries withthe Chronicle and if I could do
find a newspaper that lets me dothat, that would be awesome.
I love traveling, justexploring other cultures and
being able to report all that.
But I'm also just with the truecrime, with the research.
(34:24):
I do love the legal side ofreporting and just working with
covering court cases, kind of onthe crime beat a little bit.
So if I could find one of those, that would be great.
But just honestly open towherever that takes me.
BT Irwin (34:38):
All right.
Well, everyone who justlistened to this can say that
they knew Kinsey James Wynn.
So, whatever you do, you're offto a really great, great start
Everything you've done so farand that's pointing in a very
positive direction.
So Kinsey James is a seniormultimedia journalism major at
Harding University in Searcy,arkansas.
(34:59):
She was one of our summerinterns at the Christian
Chronicle.
We'll put a link to all of herstories, including her last one
about how federal policies areaffecting international students
at colleges and universities inthe Church of Christ Heritage.
Kinsey, great work and thankyou for being on our show.
Kenzie James (35:15):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (35:17):
It's a pleasure.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
(35:40):
at christianchronicleorg anddon't forget our ministry to
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world is a non-profit ministrythat relies on your generosity.
So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
(36:00):
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Calvin
Cockrell, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and president and CEO
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
(36:23):
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcaster Voice Studios in theMotor City, detroit, michigan,
usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Thank you.
My years of working innonprofit community development,
one of the questions I'velearned to insist that we answer
in any planning or strategymeeting is this one what are the
unintended consequences?
We need to take a good longlook at how what seems like a
good idea could lead toconsequences that are not good
or useful for our overallmission.
(00:40):
Once we have a handle on whatwe think could go wrong, we need
to weigh it against what couldgo right and ask the hardest
question Is the risk of whatcould go wrong worth what could
go right?
Jesus might call this countingthe cost.
Surveys show that nationalsecurity secure borders in
particular is of utmostimportance to many of those who
(01:02):
claim Christianity, especiallythe ones that researchers place
in the evangelical Christiansegment of the US population.
That segment includes those ofus in the Church of Christ.
This is one of the biggestreasons that evangelical
Christians report supporting thenew administration in
Washington DC.
That administration has beentrue to its word, fast-tracking
(01:23):
new federal policies with theintention that they will keep
the wrong people from enteringthe country.
But as with almost anything inthe public sector, there are
what could be unintendedconsequences.
For example, the ChristianChronicle recently reported how
new federal policies areaffecting international students
who want to get their educationat colleges and universities in
(01:45):
our Church of Christ heritage.
Some students who want to getto the United States to enroll
at these schools are now unable.
The reporter who wrote thatstory is Kinsey James, a senior
multimedia journalism major atHarding University in Searcy,
arkansas.
Kinsey is a native ofTallahassee, florida, and was
one of our two summer interns atthe Christian Chronicle this
(02:05):
year.
The other was Andrew Renaud,who you heard a few times this
summer as he recorded newsupdates that we played at the
top of our podcasts.
Kinsey is back at school forher senior year, but taking time
out to talk to us today.
Kinsey, hello.
Kenzie James (02:18):
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (02:19):
Okay, so a few episodes back, we had the
Christian Chronicle's ownincoming managing editor, calvin
Cockrell, and outgoing managingeditor Audrey Jackson I think
Calvin is 30 years old andAudrey is still in her 20s and
we kind of have joked about how,if a young person considers a
career in journalism these days,her parents are likely to say
are you crazy?
(02:39):
You're going to starve.
So I mean, if you're lookingfor stable employment and you
want to make a lot of money, Idon't think anybody's going to
tell you to give journalism atry.
So why are you at least open tojournalism, Kenzie?
What is the big draw for youtoward that career path?
Kenzie James (02:56):
Yes, well, right off the back.
I don't know, maybe my parentsare on the extreme of this, but
they never said that to me whenI told them I wanted to go to
journalism.
They've always been extremelysupportive of what I wanted to
do, so very grateful to them forthat Journalism.
Honestly, I started in highschool because I just wanted to
tell people stories, and that'sbeen.
The big draw for me is justmaking sure people's stories are
(03:19):
represented, that their storiesare told, because there's so
many cool stories out there thatare just really inspirational.
It's inspirational for me tolearn about, to report on, to
see people's passion for thingsand to really see the ministry
and how God works through themin the community.
But on the serious side,there's stuff that people just
(03:40):
need to know, whether it belegal or court cases or
government, just anything thathappens.
There's big things that justneed to know, whether it be
legal or court cases orgovernment, just anything that
happens.
Like there's big things thatpeople need to know that a lot
of times doesn't get reported on, and so that's just part of the
draw, for that is making surepeople are aware of information
they need to make decisionsabout how to interact with other
people.
BT Irwin (04:01):
Can you tell us about the first story?
You ever not like story story,but uh like what's the first
time you put on your reporterhat and went out and reported a
story on something oh gosh, umbaby.
Kenzie James (04:18):
high school yearbook was actually how I got
into journalism and just doingstories.
I did a lot of club storiesjust featuring some of the
different clubs around campus,but here at Harding I think the
first one I did was the firstbig one I did was Relay for Life
.
I was an assistant producer atthat point and I told my advisor
(04:39):
, who is the staff supervisorfor HCCN, that I wanted to do a
package about Relay for Life.
It's a fundraiser, all-nightfundraiser we do here.
I'm sure you're familiar withit.
Being a Harding alum, I canmake a joke here about curfew.
BT Irwin (04:58):
if you like, go for it .
All-night fundraiser.
Harding University curfew yes,people would sign out and sit
down on the front lawn all night.
Kenzie James (05:03):
Go for it All night fundraiser Harding
University curfew.
Yes, but I'd like people wouldsign out and sit down on the
front lawn all night which dothey actually, who knows.
But so I did that with one ofmy friends who was a reporter at
the time, and so we did kind ofa look live shot to where I
reported videos of her andhearing people on the front lawn
just reporting about what wasgoing on around us.
(05:24):
So that's kind of the first bigstory I did here.
BT Irwin (05:29):
Well, speaking of stories that you've written, you
got to spend your summer as anintern in a real award-winning
newsroom, at the ChristianChronicle.
How did that experience openyour eyes or surprise you?
Kenzie James (05:43):
Wow, it was an incredible experience.
I mean just the great staff,great people there.
I built great relationshipswith all of them and learned a
lot from everybody at the office.
I think the biggest way itchanged was my writing.
Honestly, when I'm editing nowand writing my stories, I can
still bobby and audrey's voicesin my head yeah, um and just.
(06:05):
And my brain will just go, oh,that's going to get edited out
or they're going to change it tosay this instead, um, so that's
just a little bit of a comedicbit, that kind of developed out
of the summer.
Um.
But honestly, the biggest thingwas it strengthened my feature
writing.
Um, I tend to write a lot ofhard news just working for hu
HG16, the broadcast here.
(06:26):
That's very hard, very fast.
You only have four sentences tosay the most important
information.
So it really is expanding mystorytelling skills with that.
But also a big lesson I learnedwas in that viewing those big
hard events through the lens ofone person's story, and the big
one with that.
An example was the Texas floods.
(06:47):
So I did a story on HenselYouth Christian Camp and Andrew
did one on Camp Bandino.
And so just really looking atthis big event but instead just
giving them the facts of.
This is what happened.
This is how many people werehurt.
It's taking the story of howare these people affected and
(07:08):
then expanding it to the biggerpicture, and that just really
changed how I view those events.
BT Irwin (07:13):
Yeah, can we go?
Let's go back to editing forjust a second here, because this
is something that people thatconsume news maybe never ever
think about.
They may assume that a reporterjust writes a story and puts it
out there and that's that.
But I had my first experiencewriting a story for the
Christian Chronicle just thismonth and it was fascinating to
(07:35):
see it go through the editingprocess.
So you said you can hearAudrey's and Bobby's voices in
your head now when you'rewriting stuff.
Can you give our non-newsreporter listeners an idea of
something you learned aboutediting this summer working at
the Christmas Chronicle?
Kenzie James (07:52):
Yeah, so one of the big pieces was just working
with.
The big thing about news that Ilearned this summer was person
first.
It's always been person firstand I've known that.
But just applying it to eventhat different level.
So there is one like my introarticle.
Actually I hate writing aboutmyself, health, and so I was
(08:18):
just thought one of the hardestparts for me is just making it
not sanitized.
And that was the big thing.
As I went in with Audrey, shewas like, yeah, it's good, but
we can make it much lesssanitized and just like,
completely get that, get yourvoice and your personality into
the writing.
And then the big one, likeBobby, doesn't like the word.
It.
BT Irwin (08:33):
Bobby doesn't like the word it.
Kenzie James (08:39):
In stories, like using that as a noun.
So it's like you write a storyor you write a sentence and then
end it, and then you start thenext sentence, still talking
about the same subject, butusing the word it.
No, it gets ended out everytime.
So that was one that I justautomatically not that it's like
taken out of my vocabularycompletely, but I definitely
don't use it nearly as much whenwriting.
BT Irwin (08:59):
All right, so this is a true story.
I went to Harding University inthe 1990s.
I was an advertising minor, soI had to take a bunch of.
I took journalism and PRclasses there and I had Dr Jack
Schock, who is still there atHarding, and one of the words to
(09:20):
this day that I do not use isthe word there T-H-E-R-E there.
I don't remember why, but it wasdrilled into my head don't ever
use the word there in a storythat you write, and so anything
I have written for 20 somethingyears now does not have the word
(09:40):
there in it, because of thatclass at Harding University,
true story.
So you mentioned a couple ofstories that you reported over
the summer.
Tell us which.
You wrote quite a few actually.
There's going to be a link inthis podcast to your archive.
You wrote a lot of stories forone summer, so can you tell us
(10:03):
which stories impacted you themost?
Kenzie James (10:13):
I'm not completely dead yet.
I think one of the biggest oneswas the campus ministry
conference.
I drove down to Denton, texas,just outside of Dallas, and
reported on that live, went tothe conference, interviewed
people there and that was a hugeexperience.
Just to be on ground reportingfor newspaper, because a lot of
(10:41):
the stuff we do here sometimeswe'll go to the events, but a
lot of the times you're writingit before or after the event.
Yeah, um, so the chance to bethere in the moment and just
like take down observationsabout it was really cool.
And also just traveling alonefor like work experience.
That's the first time I've everdone like a work trip like that
yeah so just personally, thatwas a huge learning curve.
There's one that hasn't beenpublished yet about a coffee
shop in Oklahoma and that onewas just fun.
(11:04):
That one was one of my favoritestories.
Just to see the ministry of thefounders and the executive team
and their passion for themission that they do was truly
just like really inspiring, justenergizing.
Andrew was actually with me forthose interviews and he took
our photos and also helped askquestions and had that
(11:27):
conversation, but just we bothcame away really inspired and
energized to go write that storyand tell the story of that
coffee shop.
So I'm really excited forpeople to see that one.
And then the the biggest one ofthe other big ones is actually
what we're going to talk abouttoday is the international
policies.
Yeah, um, one of my biginterests and just kind of like
(11:49):
side hobbies is, um, likereading is true crime and so
just deeping, just deep divewith the research and all that.
I love doing all the research.
So when I got this story, itwas just really fun to dive into
.
It's also just such animportant story that a lot of
people are like all this stuffis going on but we don't really
(12:10):
know what it means or how itaffects us.
BT Irwin (12:12):
Yeah, I want to get into that story in a minute, but
before I do I want to circleback to you're a multimedia
journalism major and you justreferenced true crime.
Christian Chronicle readers wholike read every story we put
out know that you did a truecrime podcast.
People who listen to this showmay not know that, so I bet we
(12:35):
have some true crime fans whoare listening to this.
So could you tell us aboutmaking an actual true crime
podcast?
What went into that and how didit turn out?
Kenzie James (12:50):
Yeah, it was for a class so I had about a month to
put together, where a lot oftrue crime podcasts will take
multiple months, so I wasalready kind of on an
abbreviated schedule with that.
That definitely added to thestress of making sure I got all
the information but also gettingit all right.
I reported on a cold case and aclosed case here in White
(13:12):
County over in Waldbaum and justthere's some circumstantial
evidence connecting the cases.
They were both murders of highschool girls so it was a very
heavy, very interesting topic tolearn about.
But also I just kind of alongthe same lines with the cold
case, like their stories thefull story was never completely
(13:35):
told, like there's just a lot ofinformation we still don't know
.
So just really being able tohelp tell their stories a little
bit more to keep that memory ofthe girls.
But it was fun I brought acouple of my friends onto the
podcast to read it with me, tokind of do a cold read, just so
I could get to see theirreactions and just like how
people's minds process this,because at that point I kind of
(13:58):
already knew everything.
But it was cool to see peoplestart from scratch and try to
build the case with me and Ialways said it helped them.
But it was good.
I think for the first time itturned out pretty okay.
I was happy with how the storyturned out.
The audio, some of thetechnical sides of it, aren't
exactly my strengths.
I'm definitely much more on thestorytelling.
(14:20):
That's why I'm in printjournalism yeah yeah, but um, I
don't, I mean, I don't thinkit's half bad, so I'm not
telling people to go listen toit, but if there are true crime
listeners and they're interestedin stories from arkansas,
they're welcome to go listen toit.
It's on spotify and YouTube.
BT Irwin (14:35):
We'll link it anyway.
It's called Case Closed right?
Yes, All right, Everybody gocheck out Kenzie's True Crime
Podcast Case Closed right afteryou're done listening to this.
Okay, so back to the last storythat the Christian Chronicle
published from you prior torecording this episode.
It's a story that rings all thebells for what we in the news
(14:57):
business call relevant andtimely.
You reported on how changes tofederal policies and the
execution of those policies isaffecting international students
who want to enroll and study atcolleges and universities in
our Church of Christ heritage.
How did this story come aboutfor you?
Kenzie James (15:15):
I honestly don't even remember.
We were sitting in a meeting inJune.
It was just after our Junedeadline, so we had just gotten
the July edition off the press.
Andrew and Audrey and I wentinto Bobby's office.
Andrew and I were kind of weneeded more story ideas to keep
looking into, and so we werejust sitting down going through
stories that people hadsubmitted to the Chronicle, just
(15:38):
kind of talking about the bignews events of the time and
looking for that Church ofChrist connection to could we
report on it.
And somehow I don't rememberwho brought it up I think it was
Audrey but we started talkingabout the countries being banned
because of that list.
At that point in time MarcoRubio had released a list of 36
(15:59):
countries that could be bannedif they didn't make some
adjustments to their security,and so we were talking about it.
And then it just kind ofsnowballed into the idea of well
, how is this affecting collegestudents with visas?
Because a lot of thosecountries their visas were also
restricted for who could comeinto the US.
And then I started thinkingabout well, harding has a
(16:20):
program that goes into Zambiaand Zambia is on that list.
So I was just kind of curiousabout looking into seeing how
other Christian universitieswere affected.
Were students being affected bythis?
And so Bobby and Audrey kind ofgave us the green flag to run
with it and we did it for awhile.
I actually didn't get a lot ofresponses back from the
(16:41):
universities and so I didn'teven know that there was going
to be a story, because that'swho there's still be impacted.
But if no one's going to talkto me about it, there's only so
much I can do.
And then I got off the phonewith I don't remember which one
it was, but one of theuniversity's primary designated
(17:02):
officials, their PDSO, and I gotoff the interview and I looked
at Andrew and I said there's astory here and I don't care how,
like.
I don't know how long it'sgoing to take, but we're going
to find it and we're going totell it.
BT Irwin (17:14):
So let's talk about that story as it unfolded and
again it will be linked in theshow notes to this episode you
interviewed, I think.
In the story you said youreached out to 14 colleges and
universities and it seems likeyou were able to interview maybe
not all of them, but quite afew of them, and there were
officials.
There are officials, it seemslike and this is where the
(17:37):
education curve comes in forpeople in our audience.
It seems to me like a collegeor university has to designate a
certain official to work withinternational students and
getting them into the countryand onto campus, and so those
are the officials that youinterviewed for the story.
Kenzie James (17:57):
Is that right?
Yes, for most of theuniversities A couple of them I
talked to the head ofinternational education, but I
did try to speak to theofficials, mostly because
they're the ones who deal withthe I-24s and the visas and all
the paperwork to get studentshere.
BT Irwin (18:15):
So a lot of times they're that first line of
contact for those students atthe university.
They're that first line ofcontact for those students at
the university.
Yeah, so what?
The gist?
The headline of the story isthat international students that
either have been coming toschool in the United States or
want to come to school in theUnited States at one of these
Church of Christ colleges oruniversities, some of them were
not able to get into the country, or getting into the country
(18:35):
was delayed, which means theywould miss the start of the
school year.
So could you break it out forus?
First of all, what federalpolicy you mentioned that 36
countries were banned unlessthey improved their security
policies, or something like that.
What is the federal policy inplay here?
(18:56):
How is its execution affectingthese international students?
Kenzie James (19:00):
So there's actually a lot of federal
policies in place.
I'm just going to kind of startyou back at the beginning of
the year and walk through theones that are affecting the
Christian universities.
There are a lot in play, that alot are affecting public
universities.
We see the names like Harvardand Columbia in the news that
have a much bigger impact, butthat doesn't directly affect the
Christian universities.
(19:20):
So it all kind of started inJanuary when President Trump
re-entered office.
He revoked a policy from theBiden administration that the
ICE agents were not allowed oncollege campuses, churches and
some other locations that werekind of off-limits.
(19:41):
So President Trump's executiveorder revoked that so ICE agents
could go on campus.
And that's what we saw a lot ofthis spring, with students
getting their visas revoked,their international forms,
getting those canceled or denied.
And then we also saw a lot ofstudents were deported.
(20:02):
That was just all over thecountry, not at the Christian
universities were deported.
That was just all over thecountry, not at the Christian
universities.
There were two students over atOklahoma Christian in Oklahoma
City whose visas were revoked inApril and they were eventually
restored.
So as far as I know, thosestudents are still on campus.
But that was kind of the onlymajor effect with the Christian
(20:23):
universities we saw lastsemester.
So then come May the Departmentof State sent out a memo to all
of the consulates and embassies,pausing visa appointments, and
they said, hey, we're working onsome new vetting policies for
applicants.
Don't make any moreappointments, We'll let you know
when you can resume.
That was the gist of the memowith that and they sent a press
(20:46):
release out and then somehowsome newspapers got a leaked
cable just with a little bit ofmore of that information.
So then in the middle of thatpause, President Trump sent out
an executive order banning 12countries from entering the US
and then seven were restrictedwith whose visas could come in,
and a lot of those were thestudent visas and the business
(21:09):
visas were not allowed to comeback into the US.
And a lot of those citationscame from the overstay report
saying that immigrants ornon-immigrants who were visiting
the US on these visas werecoming into the country and then
staying longer than they wereallowed to, and just nobody was
catching it until they left whenwe had that documentation.
So that's what he said with alot of those, and then we didn't
(21:34):
really have many countriesaffected with that with students
at the Christian campuses, butthat's just kind of the basis
for that.
And then visa appointmentsresumed early mid-June and
another Department of Statecable was sent out to embassies
saying applicants' social mediahas to be made public.
And that was the big thing withvetting policy is now the
(21:57):
agents who are looking intoapplicants for visas go through
social media Just for any redflags.
There's not really a clear listthat was revealed of what
they're looking for, but justwhatever red flags when they're
like, hey, this person shouldprobably shouldn't come in,
they're now looking for that onInstagram, TikTok X, Facebook,
whatever social media that theapplicants have.
(22:19):
And that was a big thing.
But with that the visaappointments were also resumed.
But at this point there hadbeen a three-week delay of no
appointments, so that reallypushed a lot of students off.
And then Marco Rubio releasedthat cable with the 36 countries
and said, hey, there'ssomething that needs to be
(22:41):
changed here.
I looked into just kind of alot of the US relations with
those countries and it couldhave been like security.
It could be anything fromterrorism to just make how they
verify their identificationReally just a lot of things that
the US security was kind ofwary of that.
Ruby have said, hey, take 60days to implement any of these
(23:05):
two, or else you could be atrisk of being banned or
restricted like these other 19countries.
And that 60-day period actuallyended mid-August.
BT Irwin (23:14):
Okay.
Kenzie James (23:14):
So we are past that period at any point.
I looked shortly after thatperiod and there were no other
countries added to therestrictions list.
Whether that's happened now orcould happen, I have no idea,
but that time period, that graceperiod of hey start making
changes, is up, so we could beseeing more action in the future
.
(23:35):
The biggest thing that happened,though, was the visa delays,
and with that three week pause,a lot of students coming into
the US to attend Christiancolleges for the first time
could not get appointments untilmid-August, november.
Even Some of the officials atthe schools are telling me that
their students the firstavailable appointment was
(23:57):
mid-fall, and so I asked I waslike well, what does that mean
for them?
And students are allowed tocome in until they can get that
visa interview.
So they can't that visainterview, so they can't start
the semester.
So if they had an appointmentlike end of August or September,
I did talk with some of thePDSOs and they said students
still have to wait till January,just citing culture shock,
(24:20):
wanting to set the students upfor success, because trying to
come in in the middle of thesemester for the first time,
struggling to catch up inclasses, you're already a couple
weeks behind.
On top of culture shock andadjusting to a new culture for
the first time, the officialsdecided it's better for you to
transition at the semester andjust come in next semester, and
(24:41):
that's where a lot of them areoffering online classes.
A lot of them are offeringonline classes.
Some of the school, likeOklahoma Christian, has a
program in Rwanda for studentswho are stuck there to start
taking classes until they canmake it over to campus.
But the big thing is onlineschool doesn't require a visa,
so they don't need an F or a Jvisa to start taking classes
(25:03):
online.
So they can start online andthen just transition at the
early semester that they can getback into the US.
BT Irwin (25:09):
When students from other countries want to come to
the United States, theyobviously have to get a visa to
be here.
Is that something they have torenew each school year?
Kenzie James (25:21):
Yes, I don't know the exact timing, but I do know
that there is a renewal process.
One of I think it was itmight've been Freed Hardman One
of them one of the officialsrather was telling me about a
student who went home for thesummer and was trying to get his
visa renewed, but they wouldn'tapprove it.
Even though he's already beenin the country, they wouldn't
(25:42):
let him back in.
BT Irwin (25:43):
Yeah, and these visas- .
Kenzie James (25:44):
So it kind of depends.
So these visa interviews, theseare interviews the students have
with federal agents, from whatthe department of state yes, so
students will go through theapplication process and then
make an appointment with theconsulate or the embassy in
their country and the officialsthere with I don't remember it
(26:13):
might be Customs and BorderPatrol or Immigration and
Customs and whatever governmententity is over those in those
countries.
For the US They'll go in andmake an appointment with the
agent and then that is the nextstep to then vetting, to then
get approved for a visa.
BT Irwin (26:25):
And it sounds like the countries that there are.
You gave us several numbershere.
There was an executive orderbanning 12 countries and
restricting seven countries.
That was back earlier in thesummer and then it sounds like
the most recent the Secretary ofState.
There were 36 countries thatwere banned and the impetus
(26:48):
there is security right, it'snational security.
Kenzie James (26:50):
So these the they have not been banned yet.
They're at risk of being bannedif they don't make changes to
improving their securitymeasures.
BT Irwin (26:58):
Got it, and so students from these countries
are the ones that are havingtrouble getting their visas to
come study.
And yes, we actually.
Kenzie James (27:06):
I don't remember what all this are the ones that
are having trouble getting theirvisas to come study.
Yes, we actually I don'tremember what all these
countries are from.
A lot of the officials didn'tspecifically mention countries
that students were from.
I only had a few examples ofthat.
It was just, but I think someof them were just because some
schools, like Harding, we have alot of students from African
countries and there's a lot ofAfrican countries on that list.
(27:29):
Thankfully, harding has not.
BT Irwin (27:43):
And I spoke with, actually, our international
education about this that, asfar as we know, countries or is
it students that have, say,they've gone to school for two
years and they're coming backfor their third year and now
they're not able to get into thecountry because they're trying
to get a visa for the first time.
Kenzie James (28:04):
There is that one example that I mentioned earlier
of a student who went home andwas trying to get his visa
renewed and he couldn't.
But a lot of internationalstudents also stay in the US
over the summer and they'reeither working or they have
internships tour.
Some of them just don't leave,so they don't have to get their
visa renewed unless they were togo home or their visa expires.
(28:27):
But if they're already here ona valid visa, then that isn't a
problem.
BT Irwin (28:33):
Is there anything in particular that they're looking
for when they look at thesestudent applicants' social media
Like?
(28:56):
Have there been any kind ofguidelines that are released?
Kenzie James (28:58):
about.
These are the red flags thatwould make someone a national
security risk if we let theminto the country.
Versus family photos.
There is a list I don't haveaccess to it, as far as I could
find that was not leaked to thepress A lot of it a couple
examples I could find are thingsmaybe like anti-Semitism or
affiliations with terrorists, orjust posting about protesting
or ideologies that areanti-American or line up with
(29:19):
terrorist organizations or justkind of a red flag of then the
security is like maybe weshouldn't let this person into
this country if they have tiesto this group.
But that list was neverreleased and it's still pretty
tightly under wraps with thegovernment, so people can't.
I guess.
I don't know, maybe peoplecan't like scrub their social
(29:40):
media or anything, but they'vehad released it.
BT Irwin (29:44):
So do you get any sense of how many international
students this is affecting atcolleges and universities in our
Church of Christ circles, andhow many colleges and
universities said that they'rehaving to deal with this on some
level?
Kenzie James (30:00):
Yeah, I think all of them that have international
programs are experiencing it tosome degree.
There were a couple I spokewith that don't have
international programs yet, soobviously they're not feeling
the ramifications.
It really depends on the sizeof the school and their
international program.
Some of them, some of thesmaller schools, if they only
(30:22):
have a handful of students, theyare still experiencing it, but
not to the scale of a largerschool that might have um a
hundred or a couple hundredstudents, or maybe some of those
are experiencing it.
I think, trying to think of allthe numbers, I think a lot of
them on average were maybe like20 to 30, like definitely under
(30:42):
50, for most of them were just asmaller group because it is
mostly just this incoming classthat's affecting it and not
necessarily all the returningstudents.
So it's just a matter of howmany international students are
coming in for the first time andhow many of them had their quiz
delayed.
BT Irwin (30:59):
So you spoke to the people at these colleges and
universities whose job it is tohelp international students get
onto campus and enroll inclasses, and so did you get a
sense from them that this is ahiccup like this is just an
adjustment that's happening witha new administration and things
will normalize, or did you geta sense from them that it could
(31:22):
be more difficult in the future?
Or, you know, maybe they can'teven predict what's going to
happen in the future with theirinternational programs.
What kind of things did theyshare with you about how their
jobs are going and how theythink their jobs are going to
change in the years ahead?
Kenzie James (31:38):
It's honestly a mix of all of it.
I don't think per se their jobsare going to change very much.
We didn't really talk aboutthat.
(32:01):
A lot of it depends on theadministration, because we at
who gets elected to be in office.
A lot of them do think thatthey haven't seen this exactly
before, but there have beenissues or problems like holdups
like this, to where most of themare not worrying because it's
not affecting them on a largescale.
It's just kind of acase-by-case basis.
(32:24):
But one of the officials I spoketo said that he reached out to
the.
It was the program that is overall the documents that students
have to apply for, like theI-20 and all their forms to come
into the US.
He reached out to them and theysaid we don't know anything, we
don't know what's going on, andso there is a little bit of
(32:46):
uncertainty when those entitiesaren't getting information.
So the officials don't know howto help their students.
In some cases if they havequestions, the people above them
don't even have answers.
So most of them did think thatit would just kind of calm down.
I interviewed them all over thesummer so most students weren't
(33:06):
on campus, so a lot of themwere anticipating a little bit
more communication and strugglewith the semester starting in
August, but after that theydidn't seem too worried at the
moment that it would be longterm.
But as we've seen with some ofthese policies, we can see
anything change very quickly.
BT Irwin (33:25):
Last question here.
Let's talk about you.
You're a senior, so you're inyour last year there at Harding.
What do you hope is next foryou after your big summer at the
Christian Chronicle, your lastbig year at Harding?
Where do you hope you land next?
Kenzie James (33:40):
I honestly have no idea.
I don't graduate until nextDecember and December 26.
I'm actually going to graduatea semester earlier than my
projected track so I haven'treally thought about where
exactly I want to go.
I know I want to go to anewspaper and there's a couple
ideas I have of what I want todo.
(34:02):
Like dream job would be travel,Like Audrey.
I know a couple episodes agoyou guys talked about how she
traveled to 18 countries withthe Chronicle and if I could do
find a newspaper that lets me dothat, that would be awesome.
I love traveling, justexploring other cultures and
being able to report all that.
But I'm also just with the truecrime, with the research.
(34:24):
I do love the legal side ofreporting and just working with
covering court cases, kind of onthe crime beat a little bit.
So if I could find one of those, that would be great.
But just honestly open towherever that takes me.
BT Irwin (34:38):
All right.
Well, everyone who justlistened to this can say that
they knew Kinsey James Wynn.
So, whatever you do, you're offto a really great, great start
Everything you've done so farand that's pointing in a very
positive direction.
So Kinsey James is a seniormultimedia journalism major at
Harding University in Searcy,arkansas.
(34:59):
She was one of our summerinterns at the Christian
Chronicle.
We'll put a link to all of herstories, including her last one
about how federal policies areaffecting international students
at colleges and universities inthe Church of Christ Heritage.
Kinsey, great work and thankyou for being on our show.
Kenzie James (35:15):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
BT Irwin (35:17):
It's a pleasure.
We hope that something youheard in this episode encouraged
, enlightened or enriched you insome way.
If it did, thanks be to God andplease pay it forward.
Subscribe to this podcast andshare it with a friend.
Recommend and review itwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Your subscription,recommendation and review help
us reach more people.
Please send your comments,ideas and suggestions to podcast
(35:40):
at christianchronicleorg anddon't forget our ministry to
inform and inspire Christiansand congregations around the
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So if you like the show and youwant to keep it going and make
it even better, please make atax-deductible gift to the
Christian Chronicle atchristianchronicleorg.
Slash donate.
(36:00):
The Christian Chronicle podcastis a production of the Christian
Chronicle Incorporated,informing and inspiring Church
of Christ congregations, membersand ministries around the world
since 1943.
The Christian Chronicle'smanaging editor is Calvin
Cockrell, editor-in-chief BobbyRoss Jr and president and CEO
Eric Trigestad.
The Christian Chronicle podcastis written, directed, hosted
(36:23):
and edited by BT Irwin and isproduced by James Flanagan at
Podcaster Voice Studios in theMotor City, detroit, michigan,
usa.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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