Christian Chronicle Podcast partner Freed-Hardeman University sponsored this special episode to be an open invitation to you to visit the Bible lands.
If you're a longtime listener to The Christian Chronicle Podcast, you've heard the advertisements that promote the opportunity for all students in the Freed-Hardeman University Graduate School of Theology to work an archaeological dig in the Bible lands...for just $500 out of pocket.
In this episode, you'll find out how this opportunity open to everyone (even those who are not students at Freed-Hardeman University).
Why is this important? Our guests, Dr. Rick Brumback and Dr. Jonathan Moore make the case for how visiting the places where the Bible stories took place builds personal faith and empowers and enriches Christian preachers and teachers for their ministry work.
This is your chance to deepen your faith and widen your imagination as a Christian by visiting the Bible lands with Freed-Hardeman University.
Take your first step to the Bible lands at travel.fhu.edu and learn more at seeinghisworld.com and contact this episode's guests at rbrumback@fhu.edu and jmoore@fhu.edu.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
BT Irwin (00:03):
Family and friends, neighbors, and most of all,
strangers, welcome to theChristian Chronicle Podcast
special partner edition.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
If you are a longtime listenerto the Christian Chronicle
Podcast, you know that FreedHardman University is one of our
excellent sponsors who makes itpossible for you to enjoy the
(00:24):
content we put out for you on aregular basis.
Because of that partnership,Freed Hardeman University
reached out to us aboutsponsoring a special episode
about a program that can bringthe Bible to life, as in it can
take you to the places where theBible stories happened.
Now, we're not talking aboutflannel board or veggie tales or
(00:45):
the best vacation Bible schoolskit ever.
We're not even talking aboutthe chosen.
We're talking about youstanding on the very ground
where David, Samuel, and Jesusstood.
How might that change yourexperience and understanding of
Scripture?
The folks at the Fried HardemanUniversity Graduate School of
Theology think that visiting theBible lands can be so
(01:06):
enriching, so formative, and soilluminating to those who preach
and teach the Bible, they madeit part of the program for the
students who study there.
This is not your typical bustour.
The main event of the trip isan archaeological dig at the
site where scholars believe thetabernacle stood for almost 300
years.
So Fried Hardeman graduatestudents in theology get to dig
(01:27):
in biblical soil for what couldturn out to be artifacts that
are left behind by one of themost important structures in
Scripture.
They visit other sites as well.
In this interview, you'll hearabout trips to Egypt, to Greece,
to Jerusalem, and to Nazareth,Jesus' hometown, here today to
tell us why they believe thechurch all over the world
benefits so much when itspreachers and teachers explore
(01:50):
and study the Bible in the Biblelands are Dr.
Rick Brumbach and Dr.
Jonathan Moore.
Dr.
Brumbach is professor of Bibleand historical theology at Freed
Hardaman University, where heis the Earl D.
Edwards Director of theGraduate School of Theology.
He's the minister with theChristian Chapel Church of
Christ in Wildersville,Tennessee, and is Secretary
Treasurer for the North AmericanPatristics Society, which I'm
(02:13):
sure has some wild meetings.
Dr.
Jonathan Moore is an adjunctprofessor in the Freed Hardaman
University Graduate School ofTheology.
His PhD is in biblicalarchaeology, and he's been
digging around in the biblicaldirt since 2018.
Biblical archaeology andteaching at the Freed Hardaman
University Graduate School ofTheology are not even his day
job.
He is a podiatrist who runs a12-office regional foot and
(02:35):
ankle practice.
I feel like we could just scraptalking about the Bible lands
and focus on how y'all manage tohave two or three full-time
careers going at the same time.
Dr.
Brumbach, Dr.
Moore, welcome to the show.
So, first of all, this trip tothe Bible lands is not like a
bus tour to Branson or a VikingRiver cruise down the Jordan.
It's a serious academicexpedition.
(02:55):
Tell us what grad students whogo on this trip should expect to
do and see.
Jonathan Moore (03:08):
We're studying the biblical world through
archaeology, geography,scripture.
So these students are reallyseeing the Bible come to life,
which is kind of a cliche, butit's more than that.
Because I mean ultimately thesestudents are able to hold these
things in their hand, and Ithink it validates a lot of what
they're aiming to do and whatthey're seeing in the scripture.
(03:30):
And so I love the fact thatwe're able to let them see these
places and connect the physicalobjects, the material culture
with the scripture.
And and as someone of science,myself, and someone who believes
in science, I think that everytime you know each strata we
dig, each museum that we go to,it it over and over again
(03:53):
validates scripture and itshistoricity, which is so
awesome.
Rick Brumback (03:57):
But one of the things I really appreciate is
that we go to these locationsand we realize that they are not
just historical sites.
We are in the middle of aliving and vibrant culture.
And you know, sometimes the thestudy of an Old Testament text
or a New Testament text orsomething, that's what we're so
focused on.
But I think travelers,including myself in the times
I've gone, have been so thrilledto get to see.
(04:18):
Here are people living, rearingtheir children, going to work,
you know, just living theirlives in a place that is also
historically significant.
So there's a layered sense tothat that I think is very
helpful to the traveler to beable to appreciate.
BT Irwin (04:33):
The main part is the archaeological dig, right?
That's the that's the mainscholarly part of the the trip
to the Bible lands.
And tell us about tell us aboutthat archaeological dig.
What do students do?
I mean, they're they're notarchaeologists, they're they're
preachers, you know, andministers, but here they are
doing archaeology like IndianaJones.
(04:55):
How does that work?
Jonathan Moore (04:56):
We we have kind of connected the students to the
archaeological dig that'sassociated with the the
Associates of Biblical Researchor ABR.
And this is a a group of uhit's a Christian organization
that's been digging in the HolyLand for over 20 years.
They've dug at uh KirbetMakatir, which is the ancient
city of I.
(05:16):
And they've they've been inShiloh since 2017.
So you're right.
I mean, we we have anopportunity to take students and
they are assigned to a square,and they are literally digging,
and of course, they're orientedevery night by where they're at
and the stratigraphy of wherethey're at.
And of course, in Shiloh,what's so unique is that we
(05:38):
have, of course, a lot ofstratigraphy that dates back to
the late Bronze I and II era,where when the Israelites
arrived, when Joshua arrives inaround 1400, 1406 BC, I mean,
we're in that strata and we areseeing and seeing objects and
pottery that is from that layer.
(05:59):
And so we see when theIsraelites came and adopted that
site as the as a as a culticsite, of course, that's where
the tabernacle was.
That was the where worship toYahweh was for 300 years.
And so, yeah, they're doingreal archaeology.
This isn't this isn't themgoing and looking at pottery or
going to a museum.
They they are digging, theyhave gloves, they're on their
hands and knees, they're movingstones because shallow is
(06:22):
surrounded by a middle bronzewall.
And the middle bronze era is,of course, the Abrahamic era.
So, you know, when you readabout Abraham and you read about
Joshua, they're seeing thatstratigraphy, and they're
they're literally touching thoseobjects from that era.
And so it's a really uniqueopportunity.
It's fantastic.
Rick Brumback (06:39):
Jonathan does a great job of preparing them
before they leave a number ofweeks.
They have some readings,they'll have some conversations
and things together to prep themfor when they get there.
And then, of course, there'sthe on-the-job training portion
that they do.
But when they arrive, they'vealready been introduced to a lot
of these things so that theyfeel at least a little bit, you
know, prepared for what they'regoing to do.
(07:00):
And then, as far as it being acourse, you know, this is an
elective for all of them, butit's a graduate course.
So when they come back, theyare writing essentially a
research paper or a project thatmight even turn into a
publication, but they're doingso based upon the things that
they saw and did while they werethere at the dig site.
BT Irwin (07:20):
I just have to say, I'm in Detroit, and we have part
of the Ishtar gate from Babylonat the Detroit Institute of
Arts.
And every time I go there, Iwant to go see it because I
think, you know, did Daniel, didDaniel see this thing that I'm
looking at right now?
It's an amazing, amazingfeeling.
And and one of the most amazingthings about this experience
that Fried Hardeman gradstudents get, we've been
(07:43):
advertising this on theChristian Chronicle podcast for
a long time, is that it's it's$500.
Is it really just $500, or isit $500 plus you know, airfare
and all that other stuff?
How does that work?
Jonathan Moore (07:57):
And this this entire experience is part of
really a vision that my wife andI had when we committed this
this endowment, if you will, toFried Hardman.
To for this really to be oflittle to no cost to them, the
$500 really comes back to themin the form of a food voucher.
So the $500 is really just tokind of get them to commit.
(08:17):
So really, this trip for gradstudents is virtually at no cost
to them.
And uh, of course, we wanttheir spouses to come, we want
family members to come, andtheir elders to come.
And so we we we want this to bean experience where it's not
just the grad students, but it'sothers as well.
And I and I'm excited to tellyou that there is just recently
(08:37):
an opportunity that's opened upfor us to take uh and offer dual
credit for high school kids aswell through a special
opportunity at Freed.
And uh we we are going to Egyptthis upcoming May and taking
grad students there.
And you know, that's a wholedifferent experience than having
your hands in the ground, butit's equally enriching and
awesome.
(08:57):
But we're gonna be taking somestudents that uh some high
school students that that wantto get that college credit and
then have this experience inEgypt seeing the the these Bible
lands.
So it's really Freed is reallydoing a fantastic job of
connecting students toexperience and not just the
typical traditional classroom.
(09:18):
And that's why I'm so excitedto be part of what Freed is
doing.
Rick Brumback (09:22):
We want to offer these as really a kind of
enhanced education, right?
So not just the classroom, butwhere possible and appropriate,
where people get to experiencesomething that lends itself to
the learning, enhances it.
And a part of making thatavailable is trying to arrange
it so that cost is not a barrierto participation.
(09:42):
And that doesn't meaneverything can always be
removed, but we always have thatin mind because if we're going
to offer it to our student body,uh we want to make it something
that they really have a chanceto participate in.
And of course, the generosityof Jonathan and Kim and the
Moore Discipleship missions isfantastic with regard to this
trip.
And we're incredibly gratefulto them for that generosity.
BT Irwin (10:02):
So I, you know, I think it goes without saying
that any graduate-level Bibleprogram will prioritize
immersive study of the Bible.
Why does yours at FriedHardeman University also
prioritize immersive study ofthe Bible lands?
Rick Brumback (10:16):
But the fact is that there's nothing like being
in the place where these typesof things happened or unfolded.
But I think even more thanthat, especially for us, you
know, traveling as Christians,we get there, and this is not
just history, but it hasspiritual significance.
And so to be standing andsaying, I am I am on the street
where Jesus walked, you know, orI may be standing in the very
(10:40):
place where he was traveling,you know, moving with his cross
toward, you know, Calvary.
So there's not just the data,but but there's a really strong
spiritual component with theexperience of being there.
And I think it has a gravitasto help make all of that other
rise above just data.
Jonathan Moore (11:00):
We live in a in a in an age of extreme
skepticism, of course, at uh inhigher learning in general.
And so I think that the bestthing that we could do at at
Fried Hardeman is prepare theseyoung preachers and leaders in
the church to addressskepticism, modernism.
And I think that every trip wetake, every dig, every field
(11:23):
survey, all of those I thinkjust really, I think firmly not
only validate what the Biblesays because they're able to see
it, but I think it builds atremendous amount of faith that
I think that exists andcontinues to grow even in their
ministry when they come back.
And I I think that Freed does agreat job, I think among the
(11:44):
best at preparing these guys tonot not only stand for truth,
but to also be able to defendthe scriptures.
And let me just give you anexample of that.
You go to any modern universityand in any any secular
university, you'll find someonesay that the Exodus didn't
happen.
You'll find someone say thatMoses didn't write the
Pentateuch.
And so, or you know, the ideaof a group of uh two million
(12:06):
people coming out of you knowEgypt and coming into Canaan
that's pure myth.
We address those things head onand we look at the evidence for
why we believe, what does thearchaeology say about there
being Asiatics in Egypt?
What does the archaeology sayabout them wondering for 40
years about the conquest?
You know, does the evidencestack up archaeologically with
(12:27):
what the Bible claims?
And I think over and over,demonstrate for these guys and
for every who for everyone whocomes that what scripture claims
is true, based not upon ourfaith, but upon uh evidence.
Rick Brumback (12:39):
When we went to Egypt, I took photos, I was
learning, I was listening, evenwith the things that I already
knew.
When I came back, I sharedthose things in my sermon and my
Bible class teaching.
And the members, they loved it,you know.
And I could speak with agreater sense of knowledge and
certainty, if you will, justabout these things because I've
been able to dig in and and showand give significance.
(13:00):
It it just multiplies, it's noteven just limited to the
travelers themselves.
BT Irwin (13:05):
So, could you tell us some stories about how exploring
and studying the Bible in theBible lands has affected some of
your students?
Rick Brumback (13:14):
I mentioned the uh the trip to Egypt uh for this
archaeology class, and so wevisited a number of significant
sites, just um extraordinary tobe able to see and do.
So I had a student in thatclass, one of the ones that
traveled with us.
When he came back, he wascompleting a Master of Divinity
program, and that has requiredinternship as a part of the
(13:36):
program.
And so he we designed it at hisdecision making.
He was going to teach an adultBible class in looking at the
Old Testament and using thethings that we covered in in our
travels to Egypt.
Well, a part of the project forthis internship was that he had
to do a survey at theconclusion of the class and
asking for feedback from themembers.
(13:56):
And then he shared those withme since I supervised his
internship.
And I know for a fact, I mean,I read the comments where they
said it was clear that visitingthese sites had a tremendous
impact on him.
Another one said it was obviousthat he understood the material
well, having been there, and itmade a benefit for us, the
adult attendees in his class.
(14:18):
That's just one illustration ofthe fact that, again, it was
able not only to affect him, butthen expand into reaching the
people that he that he preachesand teaches with and uh
ministers to.
BT Irwin (14:29):
As these students go with you to the to the Bible
lands, you know, they've beenreading the Bible, they've been
studying the Bible, they'veprobably, you know, watched, you
know, Bible stories and moviesor TV shows or whatever.
What have you discoveredsurprises them the most when
they're actually there in theBible lands?
What have you what have youseen them discover and just you
(14:52):
know it becomes their favoritepart of the trip, but it's not
what they expected when theywent.
Jonathan Moore (14:57):
But I think that one of the things that's most
astounding is to the there's a amuseum that's called the the
the Egyptian Museum ofCivilization.
It's in Cairo, and it's a it'swhere most of the mummies that
have been found in the Valley ofthe Kings have are displayed.
But when we talk about who thePharaoh of the Exodus was and
who likely who, you know, thewho Pharaoh's daughter who drew
(15:17):
Moses, and when you're standingand you're looking face to face
down at pr probably the face ofthe man who looked and and
talked with Moses, orHatshepsut, the queen who is
most likely the Pharaoh'sdaughter who who took Moses out
of the water, and you're you'reliterally looking down through a
glass and looking at the peoplewho looked upon Moses, that
(15:40):
hits you.
It and it hits you really well.
And also to be in Shiloh and tobe sitting at the gate where
Eli likely sat, or to be nearwhere the tabernacle was where
Daniel came.
Rick Brumback (15:53):
And one of the things that I found the most
amazing, and I this is also truein the perspective of other
travelers I've talked to, isthat when we read the stories,
both Old Testament and you know,certainly the gospel accounts,
the beginning of the book ofActs, you know, everything is
situated essentially in the landof Israel, you know, today.
And and you have all theselayers, and not just the
(16:16):
stratigraphy part or whatever,but I'm just talking about in
general, you know, of story ontop of story on top of story.
And all these stories tookplace in a land area that is
really of no bigger than aboutthe state of New Hampshire.
unknown (16:30):
Wow.
Rick Brumback (16:31):
And it is, it's amazing.
And and so that's why, youknow, especially for an
archaeologist like John, youknow, to look and to see if you
just sort of peel back a layerin the same, you know, footprint
of ground, there's somethingsignificant that happened
underneath that, and underneaththat.
And so that concentration ofearth-shaking significant events
that took place just right herein this little land between, is
(16:55):
it's it's extraordinary torealize that.
BT Irwin (16:57):
You've both brought up Egypt now.
When we've advertised thisprogram on the Christian
Chronicle podcast, we're mostoften talking about Israel.
So I have to ask whateveryone's likely thinking.
How are conditions in Israeland Palestine affecting this
program these days?
How are you able to continueeven during wartime?
Jonathan Moore (17:16):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And I'll I'll start off bysaying that the archaeological
dig has for the most partcontinued through much of the
conflict.
However, as you would imagine,Fried Hardeman hasn't been in
the position to allow studentsto allow grad students to be
involved in an official capacityfor the last two years.
(17:37):
And so our first year we werein Shiloh, and as part of the
dig team, I still go and I take,I actually take students, I
still take groups and studentsto go and dig, and we tour, but
but Freed has not beenunderstandably in the position
to allow that to be in anofficial capacity.
So we have been to Egypt once.
(17:58):
We went to Greece last year andfollowed the footsteps of Paul,
literally from the the northand Philippi, Thessalonica, all
the way down to Corinth.
And and for this next year, weare going back to Egypt and
again studying the Bible landsin Egypt.
This year we're taking thestudents to Mount Sinai, St.
Catharines, and the SinaiPeninsula.
(18:19):
So they'll be climbing MountSinai, which takes about six
hours.
BT Irwin (18:22):
Wow.
Jonathan Moore (18:23):
And so we'll we'll be doing that this year.
The grad students didn't didn'tget to do that last the time
before, but they they will thisyear.
So here's the thing.
I I mean it's it's it I I willtell you, it's worse in Chicago,
I think, in some areas than itis in Israel.
I I think it's relatively safe.
And I I think that that anyplace you shouldn't be, they
(18:46):
will no one will let you getthere.
There'll be checkpoints andother things.
But for the most part, 90% ofIsrael, it's safe to drive
around, it's safe to move about.
You know, obviously, you know,the it hasn't affected the dig.
I mean, it has affected the digsomewhat.
I mean, especially last yearwhen there was bombs going off.
I thankfully got home beforethey really sealed off the
(19:07):
country.
But some of my colleagues hadto it's interesting, they
couldn't fly out of Tel Aviv,they couldn't fly out of Tel
Aviv, but they they theyactually had to do a reverse
exodus.
They had to leave Israel, gothrough the Egyptian border in
the north at a lot, and thenleave Cairo.
So they did a reverse exodus toget out of the country.
Rick Brumback (19:26):
But for the most part, it's it's it's very safe
for university-sanctioned classand enrollment and all of that.
They're just very careful aboutthat.
And I can appreciate that.
We love the discretion and thesafety of the students, is
paramount.
However, as Jonathan mentioned,he has been there back to
Shiloh a couple of times or youknow, each year.
And so what he's put togetherthat students can take advantage
(19:50):
of as individuals, is that theycan do, let's, it's either a
pre or a post, just depends onthe year, trip to Shiloh to
participate in the dig that's anadd-on for them to the class
trip that was, say, Greece lastyear, for example.
And so if an individual feelscomfortable doing that and wants
to, then they just work withDr.
(20:10):
Moore and they make thearrangements and they can end up
going there to Shiloh as anindividual and participating.
BT Irwin (20:16):
So, what do you hope are the long-range, long-term
outcomes of this program?
Rick Brumback (20:22):
We are trying to provide this, these
opportunities at all threelevels.
So the dual enrollment, juniorand senior and high school
level, the undergraduate levelas well as the graduate level.
And so we want to see thesethings continue and maybe even
add.
We've added some travel that'sassociated to church history
courses, for example, that ourstudents are going to take
(20:42):
advantage of this coming springbreak, as a matter of fact.
But the other thing I would saywith that is that these are not
just students that are going,and that's something that we've
mentioned.
If there's someone else whowould like to go along, they get
the benefit.
They get to sit in the samelectures, they are listening to
the same explanations, they'reseeing the same things.
(21:02):
And so I love the fact thatthis is not just limited to
students.
Non-students, family, friends,and others are very much welcome
to participate.
And, you know, we're justreally trying to be a kind of a
lead, if you will, in being ableto provide this enhanced
education.
Yeah.
Jonathan Moore (21:21):
Yeah, it's a beautiful answer, and I totally
agree.
But I I think that uh, youknow, for me, I want to see this
next generation of Christians,uh, especially these grad
students.
I mean, they are they are ourfuture of the church.
These high school kids that maybe involved in dual credit, the
undergrads, I mean, they theyare the future of the church.
And I would love to see thisgeneration of Christian scholars
(21:44):
and ministers really to be ableto be convicted about their
faith and to know that there'scredibility in their faith.
We need defenders of scripture.
We need we need we need membersof the church who who
understand and really trulybelieve that the Bible is
inspired and that it's based onan historical foundation and not
(22:06):
a myth.
And I I think that Freed isreally doing a beautiful job of
seeing this and I mean they'reinvesting in the church, I
think.
I think they're investing inthe church and its intellectual
future as well as its spiritualfuture.
I mean, the church just can'tafford to abandon the world of
ideas and scholarship, and andthat's why I wanted to be
(22:27):
involved.
And I I know that's what Rickis passionate about is is
entering into this world ofideas faithfully, intelligently,
scholarly.
BT Irwin (22:36):
I want to ask each of you to to to provide what I'll
call a testimony.
You know, testimony is when youexperience something, you see
something, and it changes yourlife, and you're so excited to
share it with someone else, toshow it to someone else.
And so you've both gone to theBible lands many times.
What's something that you'veencountered there that made a
(22:58):
really big impression on you?
Something you're always excitedto share with others every time
you go back.
Jonathan Moore (23:04):
One of the things that I loved, it's our
favorite thing to do.
So we we go into the city.
So when we take students toIsrael, we we stay not far from
the old city.
It's walking distance.
So what we do is we go into theold city at night.
And you may be thinking, well,that's isn't that dangerous to
go?
That's probably the safest timeto go because it it's not as
crowded and and it's it's quiet,and yet that's when we go to
(23:27):
the Church of the HolySepulchre.
And the Church of the HolySepulchre is a very famous, very
old church.
It's built in the Crusadertimes, but I I believe it to be
the real true site.
I think archaeology has bornethis out.
I think there's lots of reallygood scholarly evidence to
support that that is the factwhere Golgotha was.
And that's where that's whereJesus went up on the cross, and
(23:48):
that's where his tomb is.
And you can go to a site thathas that links back all the way
to the fourth century AD to itbeing the site where Jesus was
buried.
I love going there at night.
And every time I go there, Ilove seeing the look, the
expressions, I love seeing theemotion of of walking at this
(24:10):
site and being at this placewhere our God was killed and
where he was laid to rest andwhere he's resurrected.
And so I that to me is the mostpowerful.
Uh, if you go to the Church ofthe Holy Sepulchre during the
day, you can't hardly move.
It's crowded, it's there'syelling and there's crying.
And but going there at night,you go downstairs downstairs to
(24:30):
a chapel that's called thechapel of Helena, and we sing,
and right above us where wesing, is the clear remnant of a
it's a stone stone quarry, andsinging and singing praise to
God right at that site is justamazing.
Rick Brumback (24:45):
I'll mention two things very briefly.
Number one was I was surprisedwhen we were filming.
This is when John and I firstmet, and we were filming with
World Video Bible School toproduce Bible land passages,
these um 15 to 20 minute longvideos filmed on location in
Israel, Old Testament and NewTestament stories.
Anyway, so we went to thenorthern part of Israel to tell
(25:08):
Dan area.
And we had been down in thecentral and the southern part,
and it's dry, it's arid, and allof that.
And we got up there, and thiswas in the springtime, right
about Easter time, and it wasrainy and it was wet.
And if you had if you hadblindfolded me and dropped me
off and then said, Hey, you'rein Seattle, Washington, I would
have absolutely believed you.
(25:30):
It was such a difference, andso in that little New
Hampshire-sized country, thereis such a variety of things, and
you know, so I can understandwhy the Bible talks about the
Old Testament, it talks aboutpeople choosing to move to
different regions or differentareas because it is really quite
diverse, as you know, anecological area.
But the one thing I'll mention,the second thing is when we
(25:51):
went to Karnak in Egypt a yearand a half ago, and we are
seeing the wall, and there arethese cartouches, the the little
labels that talked about thecities that were conquered by
the Egyptians in and aroundEgypt or in and around Israel,
and the list of names that weknow from our Bibles.
I took pictures, did all that.
When we got back, I wassupposed to be speaking on a
(26:13):
Wednesday night uh summerseries, and I had I had already
given them my topic a couple ofmonths prior and things.
And so I called the preacherand I said, Is it too late for
me to change?
And the reason because the thetopic for the entire thing,
every every speaker was asked totalk, you know, your favorite
sermon.
And I got back and I said,Okay, I have a new favorite and
(26:35):
I'd like to do this.
And it was really profiling thethings that we saw at Karnak
and elsewhere and tying themdirectly to the Bible text and
in a way to be able to say, youcan trust what your Bible says
and make sense out of thedetails.
And there is externalconfirmation of these things,
not by people who want to makeit true for their own story.
(26:55):
No, we are looking at therecords of the Egyptians
themselves that are confirmingthese kinds of things, and the
audience just really engaged.
I think they found that, youknow, quite impressive, amazing,
and that that was a great, agreat teaching and moment.
BT Irwin (27:10):
Well, Dr.
Rick Brumbach and Dr.
Jonathan Moore lead theBiblical Archaeology Expedition
for the Freed HardamanUniversity Graduate School of
Theology.
Freed Hardeman University issponsoring this episode because
Dr.
Brumbach and Dr.
Moore want you to considerenrolling in their graduate
programs and going with them tothe Bible lands.
It sounds like you don't evenhave to be enrolled to go if
you're related to someone who isgoing.
(27:30):
Dr.
Brumbach, Dr.
Moore, how can folks get intouch or learn more if they want
to explore this program withyou?
Rick Brumback (27:38):
Anybody is welcome to go on these trips.
Maybe there's a spacelimitation on the number of
persons that can get into a digsite, but anybody is welcome.
Don't even have to be related.
So if there's somebody outthere who says, I'd love to
travel with fellow Christians,I'd like to go on something
that's educational,faith-affirming, and with
persons who know.
I mean, they're going to be agreat guide.
We would love to hear fromthem.
(27:58):
And you can certainly email meat rbrumbach, my first initial
last name, rbrumbach at fu.edu.
Jonathan is J Moore at Fhu.edu.
There's a website that isdedicated for the university to
these study abroad type ofopportunities, and it's
travel.fhu.edu.
(28:19):
And if if someone visits thatsite and says it clicks explore
the trips, you will see themlisted, the ones that Dr.
Moore is associated with, onethat I'm going to be doing this
spring in the Swiss ReformationHistory Tour.
Anyone is welcome to go.
We'd love to have you.
But you can see all the studyabroad opportunities for
undergraduates, for graduatestudents, and even for the dual
(28:42):
enrollment students as well.
Jonathan Moore (28:43):
So my wife and I, through our foundation and
through our mission, we have awebsite called
seeinghisworld.com.
And that's where we post ourtrips.
And again, many of them, ormost of them, are connected to
Freed and can be found on thatFHU travel website as well.
Right.
But we uh listen, we we lovethe Bible, we love to teach, and
(29:04):
that's our passion.
And there's no better way tolearn when they're than when
you're on the site, you'relooking at the looking at these
places in person.
And so we we just encourageanyone and everyone to join us.
Most especially, we would loveto see young people that want to
that have interest in in theministry and that want to learn
and be part of really, I think,the best university for for uh
(29:26):
post-grad studies.
And so we hope that those youngpeople will join uh in our
studies at the graduate uhgraduate school of theology and
be part of uh getting credit forthose classes.
BT Irwin (29:36):
Well, we will put uh contact information and links in
the show notes.
I bet people are going to wantto check those out.
And Dr.
Brumbach, Dr.
Moore, thank you for leadingour imaginations on an
expedition to the Bible landstoday.
It was good to have you.
Rick Brumback (29:50):
Thank you.
Thank you very, very much.
BT Irwin (29:51):
Thank you to this episode's sponsor, Freed Hardman
University, a proud partner ofthe Christian Chronicle Podcast,
located in Henderson,Tennessee.
Hardeman University is aprivate institution of higher
education with deep roots andstrong ties in the Church of
Christ.
It's been providing Christianhigher education for over 150
years.
Today it enrolls more than1,800 undergraduate and 500
(30:14):
graduate students in programslike Arts and Humanities,
Behavioral Sciences, BiblicalStudies, Biological, Physical,
and Human Sciences, Business,Communication and Literature,
Creative and Communication Arts,Education, History, Philosophy,
and Political Studies,Mathematics, Engineering, and
Computer Science, Nursing, and awhole slate of pre-professional
programs.
(30:34):
The foundation, of course, forevery student who matriculates
at Freed Hardeman is requiredclasses in Bible, along with
Daily Chapel, keeping God at thecenter of campus culture and
scholarship.
If you're looking for aChristian college for you or for
someone you know, FreedHardaman University is a
community where your life inChrist will form and mature in
ways that will surprise you.
(30:55):
Go to FHU.edu slash chronicle.
That's FHU.edu slash chronicleto start your exploration of
Freed Hardeman University.
And if this is your first timelistening to this show, we
invite you to check out our fullcatalog of episodes at
ChristianCronicle.org orwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
Family and friends, neighbors, and most of all,
strangers, welcome to theChristian Chronicle Podcast
special partner edition.
May what you are about to hearbless you and honor God.
If you are a longtime listenerto the Christian Chronicle
Podcast, you know that FreedHardman University is one of our
excellent sponsors who makes itpossible for you to enjoy the
(00:24):
content we put out for you on aregular basis.
Because of that partnership,Freed Hardeman University
reached out to us aboutsponsoring a special episode
about a program that can bringthe Bible to life, as in it can
take you to the places where theBible stories happened.
Now, we're not talking aboutflannel board or veggie tales or
(00:45):
the best vacation Bible schoolskit ever.
We're not even talking aboutthe chosen.
We're talking about youstanding on the very ground
where David, Samuel, and Jesusstood.
How might that change yourexperience and understanding of
Scripture?
The folks at the Fried HardemanUniversity Graduate School of
Theology think that visiting theBible lands can be so
(01:06):
enriching, so formative, and soilluminating to those who preach
and teach the Bible, they madeit part of the program for the
students who study there.
This is not your typical bustour.
The main event of the trip isan archaeological dig at the
site where scholars believe thetabernacle stood for almost 300
years.
So Fried Hardeman graduatestudents in theology get to dig
(01:27):
in biblical soil for what couldturn out to be artifacts that
are left behind by one of themost important structures in
Scripture.
They visit other sites as well.
In this interview, you'll hearabout trips to Egypt, to Greece,
to Jerusalem, and to Nazareth,Jesus' hometown, here today to
tell us why they believe thechurch all over the world
benefits so much when itspreachers and teachers explore
(01:50):
and study the Bible in the Biblelands are Dr.
Rick Brumbach and Dr.
Jonathan Moore.
Dr.
Brumbach is professor of Bibleand historical theology at Freed
Hardaman University, where heis the Earl D.
Edwards Director of theGraduate School of Theology.
He's the minister with theChristian Chapel Church of
Christ in Wildersville,Tennessee, and is Secretary
Treasurer for the North AmericanPatristics Society, which I'm
(02:13):
sure has some wild meetings.
Dr.
Jonathan Moore is an adjunctprofessor in the Freed Hardaman
University Graduate School ofTheology.
His PhD is in biblicalarchaeology, and he's been
digging around in the biblicaldirt since 2018.
Biblical archaeology andteaching at the Freed Hardaman
University Graduate School ofTheology are not even his day
job.
He is a podiatrist who runs a12-office regional foot and
(02:35):
ankle practice.
I feel like we could just scraptalking about the Bible lands
and focus on how y'all manage tohave two or three full-time
careers going at the same time.
Dr.
Brumbach, Dr.
Moore, welcome to the show.
So, first of all, this trip tothe Bible lands is not like a
bus tour to Branson or a VikingRiver cruise down the Jordan.
It's a serious academicexpedition.
(02:55):
Tell us what grad students whogo on this trip should expect to
do and see.
Jonathan Moore (03:08):
We're studying the biblical world through
archaeology, geography,scripture.
So these students are reallyseeing the Bible come to life,
which is kind of a cliche, butit's more than that.
Because I mean ultimately thesestudents are able to hold these
things in their hand, and Ithink it validates a lot of what
they're aiming to do and whatthey're seeing in the scripture.
(03:30):
And so I love the fact thatwe're able to let them see these
places and connect the physicalobjects, the material culture
with the scripture.
And and as someone of science,myself, and someone who believes
in science, I think that everytime you know each strata we
dig, each museum that we go to,it it over and over again
(03:53):
validates scripture and itshistoricity, which is so
awesome.
Rick Brumback (03:57):
But one of the things I really appreciate is
that we go to these locationsand we realize that they are not
just historical sites.
We are in the middle of aliving and vibrant culture.
And you know, sometimes the thestudy of an Old Testament text
or a New Testament text orsomething, that's what we're so
focused on.
But I think travelers,including myself in the times
I've gone, have been so thrilledto get to see.
(04:18):
Here are people living, rearingtheir children, going to work,
you know, just living theirlives in a place that is also
historically significant.
So there's a layered sense tothat that I think is very
helpful to the traveler to beable to appreciate.
BT Irwin (04:33):
The main part is the archaeological dig, right?
That's the that's the mainscholarly part of the the trip
to the Bible lands.
And tell us about tell us aboutthat archaeological dig.
What do students do?
I mean, they're they're notarchaeologists, they're they're
preachers, you know, andministers, but here they are
doing archaeology like IndianaJones.
(04:55):
How does that work?
Jonathan Moore (04:56):
We we have kind of connected the students to the
archaeological dig that'sassociated with the the
Associates of Biblical Researchor ABR.
And this is a a group of uhit's a Christian organization
that's been digging in the HolyLand for over 20 years.
They've dug at uh KirbetMakatir, which is the ancient
city of I.
(05:16):
And they've they've been inShiloh since 2017.
So you're right.
I mean, we we have anopportunity to take students and
they are assigned to a square,and they are literally digging,
and of course, they're orientedevery night by where they're at
and the stratigraphy of wherethey're at.
And of course, in Shiloh,what's so unique is that we
(05:38):
have, of course, a lot ofstratigraphy that dates back to
the late Bronze I and II era,where when the Israelites
arrived, when Joshua arrives inaround 1400, 1406 BC, I mean,
we're in that strata and we areseeing and seeing objects and
pottery that is from that layer.
(05:59):
And so we see when theIsraelites came and adopted that
site as the as a as a culticsite, of course, that's where
the tabernacle was.
That was the where worship toYahweh was for 300 years.
And so, yeah, they're doingreal archaeology.
This isn't this isn't themgoing and looking at pottery or
going to a museum.
They they are digging, theyhave gloves, they're on their
hands and knees, they're movingstones because shallow is
(06:22):
surrounded by a middle bronzewall.
And the middle bronze era is,of course, the Abrahamic era.
So, you know, when you readabout Abraham and you read about
Joshua, they're seeing thatstratigraphy, and they're
they're literally touching thoseobjects from that era.
And so it's a really uniqueopportunity.
It's fantastic.
Rick Brumback (06:39):
Jonathan does a great job of preparing them
before they leave a number ofweeks.
They have some readings,they'll have some conversations
and things together to prep themfor when they get there.
And then, of course, there'sthe on-the-job training portion
that they do.
But when they arrive, they'vealready been introduced to a lot
of these things so that theyfeel at least a little bit, you
know, prepared for what they'regoing to do.
(07:00):
And then, as far as it being acourse, you know, this is an
elective for all of them, butit's a graduate course.
So when they come back, theyare writing essentially a
research paper or a project thatmight even turn into a
publication, but they're doingso based upon the things that
they saw and did while they werethere at the dig site.
BT Irwin (07:20):
I just have to say, I'm in Detroit, and we have part
of the Ishtar gate from Babylonat the Detroit Institute of
Arts.
And every time I go there, Iwant to go see it because I
think, you know, did Daniel, didDaniel see this thing that I'm
looking at right now?
It's an amazing, amazingfeeling.
And and one of the most amazingthings about this experience
that Fried Hardeman gradstudents get, we've been
(07:43):
advertising this on theChristian Chronicle podcast for
a long time, is that it's it's$500.
Is it really just $500, or isit $500 plus you know, airfare
and all that other stuff?
How does that work?
Jonathan Moore (07:57):
And this this entire experience is part of
really a vision that my wife andI had when we committed this
this endowment, if you will, toFried Hardman.
To for this really to be oflittle to no cost to them, the
$500 really comes back to themin the form of a food voucher.
So the $500 is really just tokind of get them to commit.
(08:17):
So really, this trip for gradstudents is virtually at no cost
to them.
And uh, of course, we wanttheir spouses to come, we want
family members to come, andtheir elders to come.
And so we we we want this to bean experience where it's not
just the grad students, but it'sothers as well.
And I and I'm excited to tellyou that there is just recently
(08:37):
an opportunity that's opened upfor us to take uh and offer dual
credit for high school kids aswell through a special
opportunity at Freed.
And uh we we are going to Egyptthis upcoming May and taking
grad students there.
And you know, that's a wholedifferent experience than having
your hands in the ground, butit's equally enriching and
awesome.
(08:57):
But we're gonna be taking somestudents that uh some high
school students that that wantto get that college credit and
then have this experience inEgypt seeing the the these Bible
lands.
So it's really Freed is reallydoing a fantastic job of
connecting students toexperience and not just the
typical traditional classroom.
(09:18):
And that's why I'm so excitedto be part of what Freed is
doing.
Rick Brumback (09:22):
We want to offer these as really a kind of
enhanced education, right?
So not just the classroom, butwhere possible and appropriate,
where people get to experiencesomething that lends itself to
the learning, enhances it.
And a part of making thatavailable is trying to arrange
it so that cost is not a barrierto participation.
(09:42):
And that doesn't meaneverything can always be
removed, but we always have thatin mind because if we're going
to offer it to our student body,uh we want to make it something
that they really have a chanceto participate in.
And of course, the generosityof Jonathan and Kim and the
Moore Discipleship missions isfantastic with regard to this
trip.
And we're incredibly gratefulto them for that generosity.
BT Irwin (10:02):
So I, you know, I think it goes without saying
that any graduate-level Bibleprogram will prioritize
immersive study of the Bible.
Why does yours at FriedHardeman University also
prioritize immersive study ofthe Bible lands?
Rick Brumback (10:16):
But the fact is that there's nothing like being
in the place where these typesof things happened or unfolded.
But I think even more thanthat, especially for us, you
know, traveling as Christians,we get there, and this is not
just history, but it hasspiritual significance.
And so to be standing andsaying, I am I am on the street
where Jesus walked, you know, orI may be standing in the very
(10:40):
place where he was traveling,you know, moving with his cross
toward, you know, Calvary.
So there's not just the data,but but there's a really strong
spiritual component with theexperience of being there.
And I think it has a gravitasto help make all of that other
rise above just data.
Jonathan Moore (11:00):
We live in a in a in an age of extreme
skepticism, of course, at uh inhigher learning in general.
And so I think that the bestthing that we could do at at
Fried Hardeman is prepare theseyoung preachers and leaders in
the church to addressskepticism, modernism.
And I think that every trip wetake, every dig, every field
(11:23):
survey, all of those I thinkjust really, I think firmly not
only validate what the Biblesays because they're able to see
it, but I think it builds atremendous amount of faith that
I think that exists andcontinues to grow even in their
ministry when they come back.
And I I think that Freed does agreat job, I think among the
(11:44):
best at preparing these guys tonot not only stand for truth,
but to also be able to defendthe scriptures.
And let me just give you anexample of that.
You go to any modern universityand in any any secular
university, you'll find someonesay that the Exodus didn't
happen.
You'll find someone say thatMoses didn't write the
Pentateuch.
And so, or you know, the ideaof a group of uh two million
(12:06):
people coming out of you knowEgypt and coming into Canaan
that's pure myth.
We address those things head onand we look at the evidence for
why we believe, what does thearchaeology say about there
being Asiatics in Egypt?
What does the archaeology sayabout them wondering for 40
years about the conquest?
You know, does the evidencestack up archaeologically with
(12:27):
what the Bible claims?
And I think over and over,demonstrate for these guys and
for every who for everyone whocomes that what scripture claims
is true, based not upon ourfaith, but upon uh evidence.
Rick Brumback (12:39):
When we went to Egypt, I took photos, I was
learning, I was listening, evenwith the things that I already
knew.
When I came back, I sharedthose things in my sermon and my
Bible class teaching.
And the members, they loved it,you know.
And I could speak with agreater sense of knowledge and
certainty, if you will, justabout these things because I've
been able to dig in and and showand give significance.
(13:00):
It it just multiplies, it's noteven just limited to the
travelers themselves.
BT Irwin (13:05):
So, could you tell us some stories about how exploring
and studying the Bible in theBible lands has affected some of
your students?
Rick Brumback (13:14):
I mentioned the uh the trip to Egypt uh for this
archaeology class, and so wevisited a number of significant
sites, just um extraordinary tobe able to see and do.
So I had a student in thatclass, one of the ones that
traveled with us.
When he came back, he wascompleting a Master of Divinity
program, and that has requiredinternship as a part of the
(13:36):
program.
And so he we designed it at hisdecision making.
He was going to teach an adultBible class in looking at the
Old Testament and using thethings that we covered in in our
travels to Egypt.
Well, a part of the project forthis internship was that he had
to do a survey at theconclusion of the class and
asking for feedback from themembers.
(13:56):
And then he shared those withme since I supervised his
internship.
And I know for a fact, I mean,I read the comments where they
said it was clear that visitingthese sites had a tremendous
impact on him.
Another one said it was obviousthat he understood the material
well, having been there, and itmade a benefit for us, the
adult attendees in his class.
(14:18):
That's just one illustration ofthe fact that, again, it was
able not only to affect him, butthen expand into reaching the
people that he that he preachesand teaches with and uh
ministers to.
BT Irwin (14:29):
As these students go with you to the to the Bible
lands, you know, they've beenreading the Bible, they've been
studying the Bible, they'veprobably, you know, watched, you
know, Bible stories and moviesor TV shows or whatever.
What have you discoveredsurprises them the most when
they're actually there in theBible lands?
What have you what have youseen them discover and just you
(14:52):
know it becomes their favoritepart of the trip, but it's not
what they expected when theywent.
Jonathan Moore (14:57):
But I think that one of the things that's most
astounding is to the there's a amuseum that's called the the
the Egyptian Museum ofCivilization.
It's in Cairo, and it's a it'swhere most of the mummies that
have been found in the Valley ofthe Kings have are displayed.
But when we talk about who thePharaoh of the Exodus was and
who likely who, you know, thewho Pharaoh's daughter who drew
(15:17):
Moses, and when you're standingand you're looking face to face
down at pr probably the face ofthe man who looked and and
talked with Moses, orHatshepsut, the queen who is
most likely the Pharaoh'sdaughter who who took Moses out
of the water, and you're you'reliterally looking down through a
glass and looking at the peoplewho looked upon Moses, that
(15:40):
hits you.
It and it hits you really well.
And also to be in Shiloh and tobe sitting at the gate where
Eli likely sat, or to be nearwhere the tabernacle was where
Daniel came.
Rick Brumback (15:53):
And one of the things that I found the most
amazing, and I this is also truein the perspective of other
travelers I've talked to, isthat when we read the stories,
both Old Testament and you know,certainly the gospel accounts,
the beginning of the book ofActs, you know, everything is
situated essentially in the landof Israel, you know, today.
And and you have all theselayers, and not just the
(16:16):
stratigraphy part or whatever,but I'm just talking about in
general, you know, of story ontop of story on top of story.
And all these stories tookplace in a land area that is
really of no bigger than aboutthe state of New Hampshire.
unknown (16:30):
Wow.
Rick Brumback (16:31):
And it is, it's amazing.
And and so that's why, youknow, especially for an
archaeologist like John, youknow, to look and to see if you
just sort of peel back a layerin the same, you know, footprint
of ground, there's somethingsignificant that happened
underneath that, and underneaththat.
And so that concentration ofearth-shaking significant events
that took place just right herein this little land between, is
(16:55):
it's it's extraordinary torealize that.
BT Irwin (16:57):
You've both brought up Egypt now.
When we've advertised thisprogram on the Christian
Chronicle podcast, we're mostoften talking about Israel.
So I have to ask whateveryone's likely thinking.
How are conditions in Israeland Palestine affecting this
program these days?
How are you able to continueeven during wartime?
Jonathan Moore (17:16):
Yeah, that's a great question.
And I'll I'll start off bysaying that the archaeological
dig has for the most partcontinued through much of the
conflict.
However, as you would imagine,Fried Hardeman hasn't been in
the position to allow studentsto allow grad students to be
involved in an official capacityfor the last two years.
(17:37):
And so our first year we werein Shiloh, and as part of the
dig team, I still go and I take,I actually take students, I
still take groups and studentsto go and dig, and we tour, but
but Freed has not beenunderstandably in the position
to allow that to be in anofficial capacity.
So we have been to Egypt once.
(17:58):
We went to Greece last year andfollowed the footsteps of Paul,
literally from the the northand Philippi, Thessalonica, all
the way down to Corinth.
And and for this next year, weare going back to Egypt and
again studying the Bible landsin Egypt.
This year we're taking thestudents to Mount Sinai, St.
Catharines, and the SinaiPeninsula.
(18:19):
So they'll be climbing MountSinai, which takes about six
hours.
BT Irwin (18:22):
Wow.
Jonathan Moore (18:23):
And so we'll we'll be doing that this year.
The grad students didn't didn'tget to do that last the time
before, but they they will thisyear.
So here's the thing.
I I mean it's it's it I I willtell you, it's worse in Chicago,
I think, in some areas than itis in Israel.
I I think it's relatively safe.
And I I think that that anyplace you shouldn't be, they
(18:46):
will no one will let you getthere.
There'll be checkpoints andother things.
But for the most part, 90% ofIsrael, it's safe to drive
around, it's safe to move about.
You know, obviously, you know,the it hasn't affected the dig.
I mean, it has affected the digsomewhat.
I mean, especially last yearwhen there was bombs going off.
I thankfully got home beforethey really sealed off the
(19:07):
country.
But some of my colleagues hadto it's interesting, they
couldn't fly out of Tel Aviv,they couldn't fly out of Tel
Aviv, but they they theyactually had to do a reverse
exodus.
They had to leave Israel, gothrough the Egyptian border in
the north at a lot, and thenleave Cairo.
So they did a reverse exodus toget out of the country.
Rick Brumback (19:26):
But for the most part, it's it's it's very safe
for university-sanctioned classand enrollment and all of that.
They're just very careful aboutthat.
And I can appreciate that.
We love the discretion and thesafety of the students, is
paramount.
However, as Jonathan mentioned,he has been there back to
Shiloh a couple of times or youknow, each year.
And so what he's put togetherthat students can take advantage
(19:50):
of as individuals, is that theycan do, let's, it's either a
pre or a post, just depends onthe year, trip to Shiloh to
participate in the dig that's anadd-on for them to the class
trip that was, say, Greece lastyear, for example.
And so if an individual feelscomfortable doing that and wants
to, then they just work withDr.
(20:10):
Moore and they make thearrangements and they can end up
going there to Shiloh as anindividual and participating.
BT Irwin (20:16):
So, what do you hope are the long-range, long-term
outcomes of this program?
Rick Brumback (20:22):
We are trying to provide this, these
opportunities at all threelevels.
So the dual enrollment, juniorand senior and high school
level, the undergraduate levelas well as the graduate level.
And so we want to see thesethings continue and maybe even
add.
We've added some travel that'sassociated to church history
courses, for example, that ourstudents are going to take
(20:42):
advantage of this coming springbreak, as a matter of fact.
But the other thing I would saywith that is that these are not
just students that are going,and that's something that we've
mentioned.
If there's someone else whowould like to go along, they get
the benefit.
They get to sit in the samelectures, they are listening to
the same explanations, they'reseeing the same things.
(21:02):
And so I love the fact thatthis is not just limited to
students.
Non-students, family, friends,and others are very much welcome
to participate.
And, you know, we're justreally trying to be a kind of a
lead, if you will, in being ableto provide this enhanced
education.
Yeah.
Jonathan Moore (21:21):
Yeah, it's a beautiful answer, and I totally
agree.
But I I think that uh, youknow, for me, I want to see this
next generation of Christians,uh, especially these grad
students.
I mean, they are they are ourfuture of the church.
These high school kids that maybe involved in dual credit, the
undergrads, I mean, they theyare the future of the church.
And I would love to see thisgeneration of Christian scholars
(21:44):
and ministers really to be ableto be convicted about their
faith and to know that there'scredibility in their faith.
We need defenders of scripture.
We need we need we need membersof the church who who
understand and really trulybelieve that the Bible is
inspired and that it's based onan historical foundation and not
(22:06):
a myth.
And I I think that Freed isreally doing a beautiful job of
seeing this and I mean they'reinvesting in the church, I
think.
I think they're investing inthe church and its intellectual
future as well as its spiritualfuture.
I mean, the church just can'tafford to abandon the world of
ideas and scholarship, and andthat's why I wanted to be
(22:27):
involved.
And I I know that's what Rickis passionate about is is
entering into this world ofideas faithfully, intelligently,
scholarly.
BT Irwin (22:36):
I want to ask each of you to to to provide what I'll
call a testimony.
You know, testimony is when youexperience something, you see
something, and it changes yourlife, and you're so excited to
share it with someone else, toshow it to someone else.
And so you've both gone to theBible lands many times.
What's something that you'veencountered there that made a
(22:58):
really big impression on you?
Something you're always excitedto share with others every time
you go back.
Jonathan Moore (23:04):
One of the things that I loved, it's our
favorite thing to do.
So we we go into the city.
So when we take students toIsrael, we we stay not far from
the old city.
It's walking distance.
So what we do is we go into theold city at night.
And you may be thinking, well,that's isn't that dangerous to
go?
That's probably the safest timeto go because it it's not as
crowded and and it's it's quiet,and yet that's when we go to
(23:27):
the Church of the HolySepulchre.
And the Church of the HolySepulchre is a very famous, very
old church.
It's built in the Crusadertimes, but I I believe it to be
the real true site.
I think archaeology has bornethis out.
I think there's lots of reallygood scholarly evidence to
support that that is the factwhere Golgotha was.
And that's where that's whereJesus went up on the cross, and
(23:48):
that's where his tomb is.
And you can go to a site thathas that links back all the way
to the fourth century AD to itbeing the site where Jesus was
buried.
I love going there at night.
And every time I go there, Ilove seeing the look, the
expressions, I love seeing theemotion of of walking at this
(24:10):
site and being at this placewhere our God was killed and
where he was laid to rest andwhere he's resurrected.
And so I that to me is the mostpowerful.
Uh, if you go to the Church ofthe Holy Sepulchre during the
day, you can't hardly move.
It's crowded, it's there'syelling and there's crying.
And but going there at night,you go downstairs downstairs to
(24:30):
a chapel that's called thechapel of Helena, and we sing,
and right above us where wesing, is the clear remnant of a
it's a stone stone quarry, andsinging and singing praise to
God right at that site is justamazing.
Rick Brumback (24:45):
I'll mention two things very briefly.
Number one was I was surprisedwhen we were filming.
This is when John and I firstmet, and we were filming with
World Video Bible School toproduce Bible land passages,
these um 15 to 20 minute longvideos filmed on location in
Israel, Old Testament and NewTestament stories.
Anyway, so we went to thenorthern part of Israel to tell
(25:08):
Dan area.
And we had been down in thecentral and the southern part,
and it's dry, it's arid, and allof that.
And we got up there, and thiswas in the springtime, right
about Easter time, and it wasrainy and it was wet.
And if you had if you hadblindfolded me and dropped me
off and then said, Hey, you'rein Seattle, Washington, I would
have absolutely believed you.
(25:30):
It was such a difference, andso in that little New
Hampshire-sized country, thereis such a variety of things, and
you know, so I can understandwhy the Bible talks about the
Old Testament, it talks aboutpeople choosing to move to
different regions or differentareas because it is really quite
diverse, as you know, anecological area.
But the one thing I'll mention,the second thing is when we
(25:51):
went to Karnak in Egypt a yearand a half ago, and we are
seeing the wall, and there arethese cartouches, the the little
labels that talked about thecities that were conquered by
the Egyptians in and aroundEgypt or in and around Israel,
and the list of names that weknow from our Bibles.
I took pictures, did all that.
When we got back, I wassupposed to be speaking on a
(26:13):
Wednesday night uh summerseries, and I had I had already
given them my topic a couple ofmonths prior and things.
And so I called the preacherand I said, Is it too late for
me to change?
And the reason because the thetopic for the entire thing,
every every speaker was asked totalk, you know, your favorite
sermon.
And I got back and I said,Okay, I have a new favorite and
(26:35):
I'd like to do this.
And it was really profiling thethings that we saw at Karnak
and elsewhere and tying themdirectly to the Bible text and
in a way to be able to say, youcan trust what your Bible says
and make sense out of thedetails.
And there is externalconfirmation of these things,
not by people who want to makeit true for their own story.
(26:55):
No, we are looking at therecords of the Egyptians
themselves that are confirmingthese kinds of things, and the
audience just really engaged.
I think they found that, youknow, quite impressive, amazing,
and that that was a great, agreat teaching and moment.
BT Irwin (27:10):
Well, Dr.
Rick Brumbach and Dr.
Jonathan Moore lead theBiblical Archaeology Expedition
for the Freed HardamanUniversity Graduate School of
Theology.
Freed Hardeman University issponsoring this episode because
Dr.
Brumbach and Dr.
Moore want you to considerenrolling in their graduate
programs and going with them tothe Bible lands.
It sounds like you don't evenhave to be enrolled to go if
you're related to someone who isgoing.
(27:30):
Dr.
Brumbach, Dr.
Moore, how can folks get intouch or learn more if they want
to explore this program withyou?
Rick Brumback (27:38):
Anybody is welcome to go on these trips.
Maybe there's a spacelimitation on the number of
persons that can get into a digsite, but anybody is welcome.
Don't even have to be related.
So if there's somebody outthere who says, I'd love to
travel with fellow Christians,I'd like to go on something
that's educational,faith-affirming, and with
persons who know.
I mean, they're going to be agreat guide.
We would love to hear fromthem.
(27:58):
And you can certainly email meat rbrumbach, my first initial
last name, rbrumbach at fu.edu.
Jonathan is J Moore at Fhu.edu.
There's a website that isdedicated for the university to
these study abroad type ofopportunities, and it's
travel.fhu.edu.
(28:19):
And if if someone visits thatsite and says it clicks explore
the trips, you will see themlisted, the ones that Dr.
Moore is associated with, onethat I'm going to be doing this
spring in the Swiss ReformationHistory Tour.
Anyone is welcome to go.
We'd love to have you.
But you can see all the studyabroad opportunities for
undergraduates, for graduatestudents, and even for the dual
(28:42):
enrollment students as well.
Jonathan Moore (28:43):
So my wife and I, through our foundation and
through our mission, we have awebsite called
seeinghisworld.com.
And that's where we post ourtrips.
And again, many of them, ormost of them, are connected to
Freed and can be found on thatFHU travel website as well.
Right.
But we uh listen, we we lovethe Bible, we love to teach, and
(29:04):
that's our passion.
And there's no better way tolearn when they're than when
you're on the site, you'relooking at the looking at these
places in person.
And so we we just encourageanyone and everyone to join us.
Most especially, we would loveto see young people that want to
that have interest in in theministry and that want to learn
and be part of really, I think,the best university for for uh
(29:26):
post-grad studies.
And so we hope that those youngpeople will join uh in our
studies at the graduate uhgraduate school of theology and
be part of uh getting credit forthose classes.
BT Irwin (29:36):
Well, we will put uh contact information and links in
the show notes.
I bet people are going to wantto check those out.
And Dr.
Brumbach, Dr.
Moore, thank you for leadingour imaginations on an
expedition to the Bible landstoday.
It was good to have you.
Rick Brumback (29:50):
Thank you.
Thank you very, very much.
BT Irwin (29:51):
Thank you to this episode's sponsor, Freed Hardman
University, a proud partner ofthe Christian Chronicle Podcast,
located in Henderson,Tennessee.
Hardeman University is aprivate institution of higher
education with deep roots andstrong ties in the Church of
Christ.
It's been providing Christianhigher education for over 150
years.
Today it enrolls more than1,800 undergraduate and 500
(30:14):
graduate students in programslike Arts and Humanities,
Behavioral Sciences, BiblicalStudies, Biological, Physical,
and Human Sciences, Business,Communication and Literature,
Creative and Communication Arts,Education, History, Philosophy,
and Political Studies,Mathematics, Engineering, and
Computer Science, Nursing, and awhole slate of pre-professional
programs.
(30:34):
The foundation, of course, forevery student who matriculates
at Freed Hardeman is requiredclasses in Bible, along with
Daily Chapel, keeping God at thecenter of campus culture and
scholarship.
If you're looking for aChristian college for you or for
someone you know, FreedHardaman University is a
community where your life inChrist will form and mature in
ways that will surprise you.
(30:55):
Go to FHU.edu slash chronicle.
That's FHU.edu slash chronicleto start your exploration of
Freed Hardeman University.
And if this is your first timelistening to this show, we
invite you to check out our fullcatalog of episodes at
ChristianCronicle.org orwherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts.
Until next time, may grace andpeace be yours in abundance.
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