September 1, 2025 • 50 mins
Today I’m joined by Permission to Be group co-creators Sabrina Belo and Connie Marasco, to talk about what it’s like to be stuck with ourselves … knowing something in your relationships or life needs to change, but not knowing how to make it happen, or feeling discouraged after past attempts have failed.
We explore how the contemplation stage of change can be a powerful place to begin when supported in the right way. You’ll hear how understanding your nervous system, learning to set healthy boundaries, and building self-trust can help you move from frustration to clarity.
Together, we discuss how slowing down, getting curious, and creating safety in connection with others can help you navigate change without losing yourself.
Whether you’re facing burnout, identity shifts, or ongoing relationship stress, this conversation offers a compassionate roadmap to help you go from stuck to steady, at your own pace.
Resources for After the Show:
Check out Permission to Be, and sign up for the next available session.
Our Resources: The Dig Deeper Blog.
About our Guests: Sabrina Belo, a trauma-informed counsellor, conscious parenting coach, and somatic practitioner, helps people navigate life’s transitions with clarity and compassion. From healing generational wounds to finding presence in parenting, or processing grief and identity shifts, Sabrina creates a supportive space for deep, lasting change. With certifications in somatic therapy, grief work, and conscious parenting, she blends science and soul to guide clients back to their true selves. Find Sabrina: Website | Instagram
Connie Marasco, Registered Psychotherapist, helps individuals and couples deepen connection, navigate conflict, and build more fulfilling relationships. With training in emotionally focused therapy (EFT) and a warm, culturally informed approach, Connie supports clients in understanding how their thoughts, attachment patterns, and past experiences shape how they relate to others. Find Connie: Website | Instagram
Find Christina (CRPO #3908): Website | Find a Therapist | Instagram | Podcast page
A gentle reminder that this is not therapy, and Christina is not your therapist. If you would appreciate one on one support or treatment, please check out the links posted above or our Resources page on our website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
Welcome to the Christina Crow Podcast where we connect the
dots and search for more balanced mental health.
Today I am talking to the Co creators of the Permission to Be
Group workshop, Sabrina Bello and Connie Marasco about the
inspiration for the group and with the experience of healing
and relationship within a group of people offers us what that
can bring to your mental health journey.
(00:31):
Sabrina Bello is a trauma informed counselor, conscious
parenting method coach and somatic practitioner who helps
people navigate life's transitions with clarity and
compassion. From healing generational wounds
to finding presence in parentingor processing grief and identity
shifts, Sabrina creates A supportive space for deep and
(00:52):
lasting change. With certifications and somatic
therapy, grief work, and conscious parenting, she blends
science and soul to guide clients back to their true
selves. And Connie is a registered
psychotherapist who helps individuals and couples deep in
connection navigate conflict andbuild more fulfilling
relationships. With training and emotionally
(01:13):
focused therapy and a warm, culturally informed approach,
Connie supports clients in understanding how their
thoughts, attachment patterns, and past experiences shape how
they relate to others. Welcome to the show, Connie and
Sabrina. It's always a pleasure to have
you both as returning guests. Thank you for having us fun to
do this together. Tell us, why don't you tell our
(01:35):
audience a little bit about whatthis group is, the origin story,
why you guys wanted to do it andwhat it was like.
So the origin story of this, I think me and Sabrina were
sitting there just kind of rainstorming ideas for a group
because we really wanted to get together and make that happen.
(01:57):
And we start to see a lot of similarities in what our clients
were bringing in, in terms of relationships.
They were in this place where they knew that something didn't
feel right, but they weren't really sure what to do about it.
And so we call that space, and we'll get into that a bit later.
We call that space the contemplation phase, which is a
term that therapists use often. Mean, Connie, I'm totally
(02:21):
interrupting your train of thought, but I no, no, no, thank
you. Yeah.
So when you're in the field of psychotherapy, you're working
with clients and you're kind of looking to see where they might
be at in terms of changing gross.
And one place where a lot of people, and this is a totally
normal place to be, but it feelssuper uncomfortable.
(02:41):
One place that we find ourselvesin quite often is that
contemplation phase, which is the place where I know that
there's an issue and I'm thinking about what to do about
it. And that space.
Can be real uncomfortable because it's the place where we
start to open up a bunch of boxes.
(03:02):
We are like, oh, something doesn't feel right.
Is it under here? Is it under here a bunch of
boxes? We know what everyone else
should do about it. We just don't know what we're
supposed to do about it. Or maybe we know.
Yeah, we're afraid to. It's too scary to even go there,
right? So I mean, we were sitting
there, we were thinking about those clients of ours and how
(03:23):
they get that place where they get stuck.
And we were thinking about how do we help them through that
stage of contemplation within their relationship dynamics.
Not just the relationships they have with their spouse, but
their friends, their family, even the relationship they have
with themselves, where they're starting to change and
transition maybe into a different version of themselves.
(03:44):
And they're not sure that that version can still be in the
relationships as they are today,if that makes sense.
I think you did great. Yeah, no, I emphasize that whole
commonality in our clients stories, right themes around.
I'm. In this place, I've called you.
I know I need some support. I know I need some help.
I don't know exactly what this is or what to do or I do know
(04:06):
what to do and I'm terrified of doing it.
And what we noticed is just veryfamiliar in our culture as it is
today is that everything is so rushed, so fast-paced.
And it feels like this invasion of that timeline, like the
(04:28):
pressure from making decisions, creating also maybe some radical
decisions, like really things that people look back on and
said, maybe if I slowed it down,you know, it wouldn't have
impacted this decision as greatly as it did because now
I'm thinking back and I could have handled it differently.
So we want to honor that, the reflection period.
(04:48):
We want to take people through an understanding of how their
body is informing them of what'sgoing on, how to really get to
know what is in alignment with themselves, what is true for
them at whatever decision they end up eventually in whatever
time that they're comfortable with that decision.
(05:11):
Yeah. I mean, I think if I understand
what you're saying is that like this, when people are in this
place, it's often a common thingPeople say.
They feel stuck, like they know something has to change.
You don't know quite what to do or if they think they know what
it might be, they don't want to do it, or they're not ready to
do it, or they don't like the outcomes of having to do it.
Just nobody wants to be the cause of hurt or unrest or
(05:32):
making other people uncomfortable.
Often some people are very comfortable with more often than
people that are stuck are the ones that we're seeing.
So they're the ones that are uncomfortable with it.
So whether that's like you don't, you don't actually just
know the technique you need to know or a perspective shift or
you feel really weighed down by like people pleasing maybe or by
(05:54):
being just afraid, like not actually knowing that, you know,
as humans, we're all going to hurt people whether we like it
or not through life. So not that it's OK to hurt
people, but that like, going through life and never hurting
someone is not feasible. Like it's not compatible with
being a human being who's like, functioning and moving forward,
right? So coming to terms with how you
do that in a compassionate and ethical and least collateral
(06:17):
damage way is the skill to reflect, I think, and to know
what you're supposed to pay attention to.
So it sounds like you're saying this workshop series actually
helps teach you that skill? You think so?
Run it before and saw like, you know, everyone left feeling far
(06:39):
more grounded, far more connected to who they are in
order to proceed and whatever isthey want to proceed with.
And that's what we noticed wherepeople maybe were informed by
even environmental factors, where they thought, oh, I have
to decide this because this is what society tells me or this is
how I've been conditioned. Yeah.
(07:01):
Your own unique perspective of the situation where you're at,
your own relationship. We evaluate costs and gains so
people become familiar with the art of processing.
What will my decisions do for me?
How will they impact other people?
And what's it costing me to do those things or what do I gain
from doing this? And to your point earlier when
(07:23):
you said about hurting others, we've noticed and we know this
to be true. There are many people who are so
caught up in the responsibility of others while hurting
themselves at that cost. So this is for those people,
right? Like.
(07:43):
Yeah, I'm stuck because, you know, I'm stuck.
I don't know what to do. I have been conditioned.
You know, Connie and I come fromItalian backgrounds.
Like, you know, we are very familiar with the particular
conditions of that. Viva Italia guys.
Yeah, there is it cultural backgrounds, right?
Where there's a very strong, I don't know if collectivist is
(08:06):
the right word, but there's a, it's a unique diaspora, right?
Like a unique insular, we do this this way, doesn't matter
what happens how other people doit.
Therefore you just do it and shut up and get along, that kind
of thing. Real Italian.
So I'm looking at it from other diaspora that I come from in my
(08:27):
background, but looking at it asan outsider, looking in at
knowing you guys pretty intimately.
But I see a lot of that too, right?
I think a little bit. I think the one great thing
about me and Sabrina working together is that we come from a
different lens, whether that be generationally or even whether
that's culturally, because I'm third generation, so I'm pretty
(08:49):
Canadian. Third or second, I don't even
know, but I'm pretty. Yeah, I'm a federation Canadian.
Yeah. So I think it's a little bit
different depending. But I do think that one thing
that has passed down and I thinkthis is true for a lot of like
really like family oriented cultures is like we're talking
(09:11):
about values, which we talked about in the workshop.
And we, I think and we maybe we could talk, but I think that was
like the biggest part of the workshop when we did it last
time. One value that I think passes
down is family. Is everything family first.
So what does that mean then, when now the thing that the
(09:32):
person that you are becoming is this person who now wants to
maybe put yourself first sometimes?
Like imagine. Or just even what you want is in
conflict with what someone else in the family wants.
Yes. What do you want?
Age. Yeah, Prince.
Yeah. Responsibility, Right.
(09:53):
Wait a minute. I have a very busy life with
young children and my parents need me and I can't asset any
boundaries. I can't assert anything because
they need me. I have to be there.
And now I'm going to burn myselfout because I spread myself so
thin. That's not a radical like
decision around conflict in terms of like losing each other
(10:15):
or ending this relationship. This is the contemplation about
even getting to the place of us being able to communicate.
Hey, I recognize you need a lot of me.
I also want you to know my kids need a lot of me too.
And I need to take care of myself to be available for
everyone. There's it plays into so many
different relationships. We see it with women driven by
(10:39):
careers that consume them, and they're challenged by being a
mom. And this career or sibling
dynamics or romantic relationships really brushes
through everywhere. It does.
And I'm curious about something you guys said a little bit
earlier. So speaking to the generational
piece, so we're like we've got 2Gen.
(11:00):
Xers here in a millennial, right?
The only difference that I thinkthat's interesting that for
immediately comes to mind for meis the pressure and influence of
what you should or shouldn't be doing from social media.
I'm assuming you know, Connie, your generation can manage that.
However they manage it, whether it's managing exposure to social
(11:25):
media by staying off of it or whatever.
But I didn't grow up with that. So I grew up with literally the
people in my real life, like some sort of standard of how you
should or shouldn't do things, not people I didn't know online
or influencers telling me that Ishould or shouldn't do something
or telling me not to settle in arelationship.
(11:45):
Or if he's not doing this, he doesn't care about you.
Oh, those, that stuff drives me crazy.
There's a lot that drives me crazy that I don't rant and rave
about online because I don't want to contribute to the
negative noise and negative energy that's out there.
But there's so much judgement that comes across to women in
(12:06):
particular, but I think to men too, about how you're living
your life, how you're making your decisions, what you're
doing. And it's just, it's obnoxious.
I feel like on some level. And so I really like, I feel
like what you guys were saying is like, let's pump the brakes a
little bit on all of that. Let's think about what we really
(12:29):
should be thinking about and go from there.
Bang on. That's exactly it.
Slow it down. So we do emphasize regulation.
So we do a lot of psycho Ed on like the nervous system and
helping people understand their own physical response to things
(12:49):
and understand that not all of it is in your head and not all
of it is, you know, just here where you can turn on, turn
these switches on and off like. This is very.
Much passed down through experiences we've had, and it's
also living in our body. So sometimes when we're not
identifying the parts in our body, the noise that's happening
(13:13):
inside of it that we're like, oh, this is just stress or this
is just this. We need to take the opportunity
to slow it down to connect to our internal system.
Yeah, that to your point, when that judgement exists, which I
feel right now, we live in such a culture that is dense.
(13:33):
You know it's constant. That means that our nervous
system is hyper aroused. We're always feeling threat,
threat, threat, threat. And so are are sometimes our
reaction in order to protect ourselves is very, very not
thought through. Like it's it's very sudden.
It can be from a dysregulated place.
And so we want to preserve the relationships where people just
(13:56):
are owning. This is the piece where I feel
like I'm not heard, I'm not accepted.
I want to get to this place where I can just feel peaceful
about these relationships. Maybe they're not quite happy.
Happy is another thing that I feel like is just over saturated
(14:19):
because we're just driven. To. 1 area There's so much more,
can we? Say, what do you mean?
If you're not happy all the timein your marriage, that means you
should get divorced, right? Exactly 100%.
If you listen to social media, Imean, it doesn't care, right?
Like, Oh my gosh. So coming back to self is really
the goal for coming to remind people that it is OK, it is
(14:43):
natural be in these stages between these changes in life to
take a moment to pause that I'm OK, I'm OK in this discomfort,
I'm OK feeling hurt, and I'm OK taking the time to process what
to do about it. So I know you can't run me
(15:05):
through the protocol as an example or anything in this
podcast episode, so I'm not going to provide you personal
examples. But you know, if I were
listening to this as a viewer, Imight say like, well, you know,
it's easy to think about some eternal conflict you've got with
someone, say in your extended family or the family you grew up
(15:27):
with, or maybe your current romantic relationship, or maybe
it's it's between adult siblings, who knows, right?
Like those are some common things that come up all the time
and therapy. And often it's just like they
don't see it the way I see it. And maybe it feels like they
don't take the time to care about how I see it.
(15:48):
Is that something that you guys help people through?
Yes, I think that that was one of the big things actually.
I think that that's kind of whatkicked us off a little bit too.
It's. One of the questions that I know
we had from the very beginning is, is that true?
I think we struggle with that a lot.
It feels that way. That's where we get to that
(16:10):
nervous system regulation place.Because what's coming up for me
when I say something and I don'tknow my adult sibling or my
parent makes a sound or a sigh or looks away, do I immediately
fall right back into that narrative or, oh, I know what
this is? This relationship will always be
this way. I could never be myself.
(16:32):
Is there room for change, though?
And we can't know that until we ground ourselves, until we get
to that place where we're regulated, where we know what
the trigger is. So when it comes up, I can say,
OK, what is this actually? Because it's possible that the
relationship could be different.Well, we've never approached it
(16:54):
differently because we haven't been able to up until now maybe.
Yeah, I saw something great the other day.
That was this statement. That is, why don't my adult
siblings, like, see me for the adult that I am now, they still
treat me like I'm the kid version of myself.
And then I was like, yeah, damn right.
And I'm not. Oh, wait a minute.
(17:14):
I do the same thing. I think about them as the much
younger version of themselves. That is, in fact, probably not
at all who they are today. And it's because, you know, we
had get together for a family, get together and boop, everyone
reverts back to their like, teenage self, right?
It's comical. That would make a great stage
(17:35):
play if no one's done that yet. And it would be comical, I
guess, if it wasn't so painful in some ways too, because
there's a lot of patterns and wounds that get constantly that
scabs getting picked off becausewe haven't been able to say,
hey, let's actually both try something different.
Exactly, Yeah. And we love like, you know, you
(17:55):
actually one of the big things is for Connie and I is that
ability to be self aware, which was your point Like, hey, wait a
minute, that's what I do too, right?
Being able to see yourself. That is not only an objective
like it happens in art workshop have learned more about
themselves in terms of where they're at and what they have
(18:17):
tolerance to continue to work through or not like measuring
that regulation piece bridging that gap between an action
right. But but that the pause, the
taking that opportunity to just slow down and think about what
is next. And it helps with everything, of
(18:39):
course, but with the body, with the mind and then getting to
that place where they can rebuild trust.
And I think a lot of people overlook and bypass steps in
rebuilding trust because many are skipping the part of the
awareness. And how do I also contribute to
building that trust? But how do I build trust within
(18:59):
myself? What does safety feel like?
How do I know that if I've neverexperienced it or I can't
actually get my system to know what online feels like?
Every store of that online system we.
Can't actually evaluate how wellwe're providing it ourselves.
Providing, sitting back and waiting, waiting, waiting.
Or receive it. We might not even know how to
(19:21):
receive it. We can have expectations to
receive it. It might be actually around us.
We're actually not picking up the voice.
Yeah. That's so fascinating.
Yeah, yeah, I really like that example.
Yeah, and we do a lot of exercises within.
So Connie and I do a lot of communicating upfront, doing the
psycho education. Like we said, we talked to
people through week to week, certain subjects and themes.
(19:45):
And then we offer practices we do together.
We offer a workbook where peoplecan take the practices and do
them independently if they'd like.
Then we offer also an opportunity for people to check
in with each other. Now is I think one of the most
unexpected unique moments from last group is to see and witness
(20:07):
that coming together. And of course, post pandemic
world where we are so disconnected from each other to
see these. Women reaching out, supporting
one another to let each other know that they're familiar with
that pain or they're familiar with their stories and seeing
that just happened without our guidance, like it was just
(20:29):
reaching just, you know it. Remember I remembered it now,
like thinking back when you asked like, what are some of the
things you know that came from last group?
And that was one of the most special, I think, and unexpected
I got from that because they didn't feel alone anymore.
And that is one of the reasons we created this group is because
(20:50):
people need to feel that there are others.
Connection is so, so important as a human.
Well, yeah, like so from this experiential point of because
both of you work a lot with individuals as well as do I and,
and I work with couples and, andboth of you also work with
couples and parents and I've done groups before too.
(21:10):
And I, I can't stress enough thehealing power of being in
community with other people who are walking a similar path with
you in life. And I think sometimes people
think, well, if they're in the same position I'm in, what am I
going to learn from them? And they, they immediately might
dismiss the idea that a group will be beneficial.
And I think what that doesn't allow for is the thing that no
(21:33):
one has to try out, which is humans wake up every day with
brains that are interested in knowing more and learning more
and moving forward. Like we don't have to
manufacture that. Like that's, that's what the
human condition is, right? So to be able to put that
together in one room with some structured guidance and
experienced, you know, group leaders who know how to help
facilitate that, it's cool in couples therapy.
(21:56):
That's why we say in couples therapy that you don't have to
solve a couples all their problems, but when you catch a
moment and you can facilitate a shift in the session room, then
they know, oh, they can do it now they can go replicate that
and they can be the ones to replicate that through all the
other areas of their life. And you keep working on building
(22:17):
those. But it's about catching these
moments and that when you're working with people individually
is you're creating capacity and awareness for however the client
wants to regard this thing that they've come to talk about,
whether it's like change the waythey feel about it, how they
approach it, invite other peoplein to help them with it.
Like whatever that change quote,UN quote is that they want to do
(22:41):
because that's what coming to. Therapy is about.
That we never get to see them. What happens when they go home
and then we hear about it when they come back in two weeks, but
we don't get to actually watch it happen in real time.
And that's the cool thing about Group, is it not?
I think so. I love group.
Group is my gym. I've always loved group.
OK. Yeah, I do not like group, but
(23:03):
I, well, no, I liked this group,but I was not.
Sabrina knows it took a while for me to come.
Around did. You know, I wanted it to be just
a straight, just a workshop we bought.
You know, it was a lot of peopleand then I wasn't sure how it
was going to go over. I didn't know how much
confidence I had in myself. But that's one thing too.
(23:24):
I think that in working, me and Sabrina work really well with
this. That, and I think I've said this
before, but Sabrina's like a very like, I don't know, I don't
know how to describe it. Like just like a very smooth,
like it comes, it'll come, it'llbe OK.
Everything will come together. Like butter?
Like yes, and I'm like, how do you know where is the proof?
(23:46):
What the? Which is what a lot of our
clients say to. Us, yes.
And so I felt that us doing thistogether is kind of nice because
we bring that I want to lean into a logical space and Sabrina
wants to lean into a heart space.
And I think when you bring thosetwo things together to create a
(24:06):
workshop and to create a group. Yeah, science.
Oh I love. It nice.
Yeah, I think it. It's always wonderful.
I love to learn. Yeah, I was trained in my early
training and my practicum, I hadthe honor of being a Co
facilitator for a pretty intensegroup.
And I think the important thing about a group being led by two
(24:27):
people is that since the group'sabout relational dynamics and
you guys both come at it from different angles and lenses,
you're Co modeling what great healthy relational dynamics are
every step of the way for all the participants as well by how
you relate together. Because people will just be with
you for 15 minutes and understand that you come at it
(24:51):
from a different lens, but you have the same kind of goal in
mind, right? Absolutely.
That is, yes, something we got very good feedback on and thank
you, Connie, because you know, you'd bring me also such unique
perspectives, which is all like that benefits me because I love
to learn. I love looking through these
(25:13):
situations, these things that come up through different
perspectives because I don't believe there's only one way of
looking at something there. You know, it's fascinating to me
how. Yeah.
Our nervous systems have that impact, but also how things, you
know, get filtered in and our experiences and the benefit of
being also from different generations.
(25:35):
We were speaking earlier, I was saying to Connie, you know, I
don't know about you, but my clients don't understand some of
the language that we use. Yeah.
Exactly, right. And then Connie's like, well,
you know, my clients do Gen. Z's, right?
And how this language is just happening, like taking place in
(25:56):
culture and social media and stuff.
And then we get to the same place.
They can hear these words. They can hear what life
transition is like, what people know what life transition like.
You can assume what you know about it.
Most people think it's death. It's not just death.
It's. Every change, we're just.
Menopause, which means, like, death, something.
(26:17):
And then we have burnout. We were talking about burnout,
we were talking about words. And so we were.
It was just really funny becausewe bring it together.
Like you said, like that's what's great.
Like, I love working with Kanye because we have so many various
backgrounds and perspectives, and we just know that at the end
of the day, what we really want for people is to reconnect to
(26:42):
themselves. So Connie, you're a convert now
because you're running the groupagain.
Here I am, yeah. I understand you're the one that
actually drove wanting to run itagain this time.
I really enjoyed was. Was it me?
I'm just waiting. For you, I'm like, crossing my
fingers over here, going OK, OK,Connie, whenever you're ready.
(27:06):
Yeah. I really enjoyed it.
I think Sabrina's right in termsof seeing the group work with
one another. But I think one thing that
really blew my mind was seeing and registering my clients like
or the the clients that were part of the group think like I
said before, thinking about their value system.
How do I engage in these relationships that I'm in within
(27:30):
my value system? Because oftentimes we might show
up at family gatherings and I think that this happens a lot.
We can't be ourselves and. Watching as therapists or.
As club general, just in general, like I think it was
really interesting to me to watch people explore their value
system. And I remember telling Sabrina
(27:50):
we decided to put that piece in.I was like, oh, I don't think
this is going to take long. It blew people's minds.
I think you. Think yeah, because I would.
I am. So a lot of my work is based on
value, symptoms and act. People actually think they know
what their values are, but they are not embodying the values.
(28:11):
And there's so many more values than just the top five things
that you think. And once you start to embody
values, you start to judge less and criticize less.
Connie and I can have eight out of like 12 values that are the
same, and still out of those, they're ranked differently.
(28:31):
But it doesn't mean that we don't get along.
It doesn't mean that we are perfectly aligned.
We can see each other through this.
And what I always find is when you see who you are through
values and when you see what's important to you and to be led
by those values, you can start to soften your judgement and
(28:52):
criticism of other people because all it could mean is
that they have those similar values, but maybe in a different
priority, maybe in a different order.
So now with that information, oh, I can soften this
relationship with you. I can soften my expectations
with you because you're not a complete a hole.
It's not working. Listen.
(29:12):
We just don't have this common ground and that's OK because for
everything else I appreciate. You.
Yeah, it facilitates I think a really important part of working
with someone in relationship which is not taking it
personally. They disagree with you because
when you identify that there's actually core values like the
(29:34):
roots of a tree or like the alignment in your car that you
know unconsciously Dr. you everyday, then it's not that other
people don't have values to yourpoint, it's that they have
different ones and that's OK because those ones are just as
cool too. It's not that you don't have any
overlapping values or there's not umbrella or connected
(29:55):
values, just that the one that shines for you, it is a bit
stronger in one area and it may not be shared by the other
person. So it allows you to make more
space for other people doing their own thing that even if it
grates against you, it's actually not because of you,
because they were trying to, youknow, make your life difficult.
(30:16):
They're not trying to. They just look at it differently
and that's OK. Yeah, that's so.
It's very true. And I think that's one thing
about the whole social media. I love the way that social media
personally can. Teach.
People and bring people to an understanding that's different.
Than the one that they had. I think that there's a lot of
(30:38):
really good. One thing I think that it can
hurt is that there's a lot of language around what boundaries
are. That is not what boundaries are,
not what boundaries are. No weird.
It's so weird what a narcissist is.
Wounding. Why you should cut people out of
your life. Yeah, it's so harsh that.
(30:59):
Whole no contact thing is not tosay that there's not times when
you should walk away. There are absolutely times when
you should walk away, but that is far and away a very, I would
think, more rare occurrence. And there's so many things to
explore before you get there. I have just heard so many
(31:20):
stories of people identifying that their own needs weren't
met, that the other person can'tmeet their needs, and then they
see no point in continuing theirrelationship.
Therefore, boom, we do this thing called no contact.
And and in the same story I've heard this person can say, well,
(31:41):
I know they mean well. I had a wonderful childhood.
I had I didn't want for like anything.
And there wasn't even emotional neglect.
Like there was emotional attention And it's kind of like,
oh, sorry, what's the problem? Like just because someone
couldn't meet you here at this particular time in your life,
but it's done. We're throwing away the
(32:01):
relationship and, and Sabrina, Idon't know if that's maybe what
you were hinting at about making.
You didn't use the word hasty. I'm using that word like a hasty
decision about what you should or shouldn't do in a
relationship because the sittingwith the discomfort of I'm not
getting what I need. And that is whether that's OK or
(32:23):
not that that doesn't mean I'm going to walk away.
Like that takes up a lot of emotional space and time and
energy. And, and I think a lot of people
have no idea how to cope with that, how to cope with that.
That emotional uncertainty is quite devastating.
And, and the closer to the center of your core of a primary
relationship, it is, it's more devastating.
(32:46):
But that doesn't mean necessarily I think, and I
really don't want this to sound like preemptively judgmental to
anyone that's had to do this because I most certainly have
people in my life that are no longer in my life anymore.
So I'm, I'm, I'm looking at it from, from both ends of it and I
wouldn't change any of those decisions.
But none of them came like lightly and none of them came
(33:10):
quickly. And there's this just this place
where the rush to make a whole decision with the information we
have without acknowledging all the information we don't have.
And that you're not even allowedto explore that because that
must mean you don't believe the person or you're shaming them or
(33:31):
what have you. It's like what?
No. Like it's this is how you, this
is how you walk through making avery difficult decision.
It's a really sacred journey. It's an important journey.
It's an important task of adult development, a relationship with
yourself, right? And I feel like it's a task that
(33:55):
is totally off the radar and some pockets of our culture just
blows my mind. But yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty much what we're doing.
It's interesting because you summed it up really there is
this. Sacred base of.
Contemplating what is this decision that I'm about to make?
Can I be myself? What's this relationship going
(34:18):
to look like? Can I test out my theory that
this is never going to change? Yeah, we got to.
Test it out. We have to test it out.
You can test it out without having agreement from the other
side that they're accepting thisproposal.
Or do you know what it's going to look like yet?
Just start doing it, see what happens.
(34:39):
Collect real time data, do your experiment as an end of one out
there in the world, and we'll collect the data and we'll look
at it together. Maybe you were right that.
Yeah, like, good. Now you know, you'll never have
to second guess this decision. Right.
For others, can they see an improvement of flexibility?
(35:01):
Are there moments of thinking back so as your experience as
facilitators, thinking back to the first group experience that
you had and any other groups you've had in the past?
But I guess this particular permission to be group, which I
love that name that were particularly powerful for you
guys to witness without betraying any group confidences
or anything like that from I guess maybe a process point of
(35:23):
view, but you'd like to share. Sabrina, do you have something?
Go ahead. Well, mine I think was we just
so happened to have moms. It just happened that way.
OK, And I think one thing that was really powerful for me was
watching moms like new moms and moms that have been added a
(35:49):
while had work St. kind of come together in this like I don't I
can't explain it. Just kind of like, you know,
this idea of it takes a village,just kind of.
Watching OK and. That was really powerful.
Parenting shows up a lot with women right as the dynamic that
(36:12):
is in question because they so much want to be a very specific
type of mom and. Yep.
They're contemplating how to show up, what's happening.
This is the role that I want to prioritize and make this happen.
In terms of your question or so many, what I think I love most
is now following through in individual sessions, listening
(36:38):
to some of them refer back to the tools and some of that
information that they rememberedin terms of their nervousness.
I know what's happening now, but.
No. It works.
It works. I'm able to witness in my body
that this is how I'm reacting because of such and such.
(36:58):
So it's really rewarding to hearand see and witness.
And then they are connecting thedots themselves, right?
Like OK, now I see it in action and now I'm applying it and it
informs me. Yeah, there's a parallel here.
So I don't know how often folks in groups just in general get to
(37:22):
then go do individual therapy after for the rubber hits the
road work because it's one thingto learn about stuff and the
experiential part of group I think takes it a notch higher.
But then to now go and work withsomeone individually on the
stuff you worked on, to now implement it and change it and
tweak things and experiment and try different things in your
(37:45):
life, that's where the real change happens, right?
And so, you know, the parallel I'm thinking of is like, you
know, as therapists, we do a lotof continuing education and
training. And so many people do training
and then they go use a techniqueor a modality or a new framework
with their clients, but then they don't come back to
(38:06):
supervision to talk about how they've used that technique and
all of its different components throughout different parts of
the work with somebody, with a supervisor and with peers and in
consultation. And that's almost more important
than the initial training that you did because that's like the
real world application of the data and it's so important.
(38:28):
And it I guess, you know, the same thing happens then in
therapy from group to individual.
So I think that's really cool that people are able to do that
because that's got to be pretty powerful.
Yeah. I think one thing that has
changed that I think it's important to say is we were
doing this shorter previously. It was less weeks.
(38:49):
We've extended them because, like I'm said, that values
piece, the piece about values, the piece about actually
identifying our boundaries, really blew people's minds.
The difference between aggressive and assertive
communication? I love blowing people's minds
about that. I.
Don't want to be? Do you have an example to share
(39:10):
with the audience? Sure.
I'll share one. I think often times a lot of
people, I hear this all the time.
Well, I don't want to be too assertive.
And that's what I noticed. They don't actually know what
assertive is, which is kind of Fair.
I didn't either. So I really love getting to that
place where I'm like, OK, well, what do you think?
Assertive communications and realizing that they've aligned
(39:31):
it with aggressive. So being honest can feel
aggressive if you've never done it before.
Saying saying it's harsh. Harsh.
Yes it can if you've always but and one thing I don't think
people consider is though passive aggressive communication
(39:53):
could be just as harsh. But painful.
Just as painful to leave somebody not really knowing how
you selfed, but knowing that something felt weird in the way
you responded. Very confusing versus just
saying. You know what?
I didn't really like that joke or I didn't really like that
comment. And you don't have to say it
(40:13):
like that. You could just, I don't know,
not. Laugh.
That could be enough. You don't have to pretend you.
Don't have to pretend. Yeah, like it's not your job to
make other people who don't tellgood jokes more comfortable.
Or knowing what is your job and what isn't.
And you're so important, so yourfingers in life would be easier
(40:34):
with role clarity. Yeah, Yeah.
That's actually one of the week.So we had.
Yeah, it's like coming, Yeah, getting more clarification,
improved communication. And.
Alignment with values, feeling more empowered with boundaries.
And I know empowered is another word that you know, people love
to use, but it means just havingthe confidence and the ability
(41:01):
to lean into like saying, hey, like this is my limit.
Developing self compassion, resilience.
And we want people to take this away to have lasting change.
And I think what we maybe haven't emphasized enough is
being in Group and knowing that there are other people
struggling, you might not see itthat could be invisible once
(41:25):
your, you know, day-to-day life that there are others that are
in similar situations, are having similar feelings.
And group really allows for thisenergy of bonding and greater
permission to just simply be andlean into more of that.
Yeah, and other people have great ideas.
(41:46):
Someone could say something that's about the same issue that
you have, and you've never heardanyone say it that way before,
and now you have an opportunity to practice saying something.
So it's not about taking someoneelse's words.
It's about understanding and seeing in real time how you're
here and they're there and you've got the same problem and
they approach it from a different way.
(42:09):
And your brain all of a sudden like neuroplasticity is
happening, neurons that fire together, a wiring together in
real time. And you're like, wait a minute,
wait a minute, what if I said that or I said it in the way
that I say it And then you have an opportunity to practice that.
That's pretty powerful. So this one is 10 weeks because
last time you guys did 6 or 8 weeks last?
(42:31):
Was 8. Now what are you doing?
Time. It's Tuesday nights.
Yeah, it's just actually September 23rd.
It runs 10 sessions, so it ends November 25th.
And this is in person or via zoom?
Via Zoom. Yeah, We found to honor the time
frame, people weren't really making it in person, so we just
(42:52):
made this an online. True.
Yeah. And it's in the evening, right?
So if you look and have dinner and then your tea and go sit
down somewhere. 7 to 830. Considering all those, you know,
Mamas that you put their kids tobed, they're not.
That's very considerable. And I want to also say this
wasn't a workshop that came justoff the cuff.
(43:15):
Connie and I worked about 8 months in this curriculum, like
the structure in the curriculum in the workbook, there's a 65
page workbook that comes with this and we're so proud of it.
We are excited to share it, and I think that is one of the other
things that we can take away on the personal take away gain is
(43:38):
that you and I worked really hard and we're really, really
proud of what we are offering here as tools to follow these
steps. They don't have to go in order,
but they're definitely tools that can help reshape some of
the ways that you are strugglingright now.
(44:00):
Yeah, group is open to just people from Ontario currently.
People. From Ontario, I would say we're
kind of marketing the group to like 30 and up.
The reason that we're doing thatis we're marketing the group
with this idea in mind that if we're all kind of in the same
(44:20):
place in terms of what transitions we're experiencing,
that makes the work itself a little bit more powerful.
Sure. So that those are the types of
people that we're. Marketing to right Gen.
Z Don't get mad. Don't e-mail Connie the Gen.
Z version. I'll totally do a Gen. you.
Have to take the language coursethough.
(44:43):
I take it with my little sister all the time.
Yeah. It's just constantly correct me
and tell me I'm old. You can learn my language.
All right, so we'll wrap up herebecause I think you guys have
done a really good job and I feel the vibe even just
witnessing the smiles on your faces and the warmth that you
both have for talking about thisprocess.
(45:05):
This is the kind of healing and real time stuff that's really
fun. It's such a privilege to have
that unfold in front of you and it's really fun.
And I think that people are quite lucky to find the two of
you as facilitators putting thison.
And we'll certainly mention the workbook because a 65 page
workbook is is a pretty valuableresource.
(45:26):
It's something you'll have forever.
Folks, those of you that are interested in this, we've got
the event listed on our website at Dig a Little Deeper.
I'll make sure I link it again in the show notes for people
that are interested. If this round doesn't work for
you, I'm sure they'll run it again.
Maybe in the winter. If there's any kind of list for
the next class that's going to start, you'll be able to get
that information. They'll get back to you right
(45:47):
away. And any last minute words of
wisdom from the two of you for people that are listening that
are kind of interested in whether this might be right for
them or not, because they will have a consult with you before
enrolling in the group. Yes.
So you don't just get thrown in to the deep end here.
You'll have a chance to talk to one of the facilitators here and
(46:08):
make sure it's the right choice for you at this time.
Yeah. If you're thinking about the
group and then you're kind of a bit uncomfortable because it is
a group and you think, oh, I don't know if I'm ready to
share. Just know that just because it
is a group space, it doesn't necessarily, of course, grid
sharing. We think that that would be
helpful, but you're not forced to do anything.
(46:32):
This is entirely your journey totake.
It's your 10 weeks. And so however you want to
engage in the work is good enough.
OK. For me, I would call out to the
spirits of all those people who are really, really stressed out
and overwhelmed with all these questions in their mind and in
(46:57):
their heart to really just remember to take an opportunity
that whatever they put into themselves right now to do for
themselves again will help them maybe in a few years are in the
future at some point. It's not everything is about
this instantaneous change, but one step forward in recognizing
(47:22):
something is stirring in me. I'm interested.
It could just very well be the gateway to a full other level of
fulfilment, peace and calm. Like I think that everyone's
desiring this ease in this worldthat we're living today.
(47:44):
So just slowing down, just offering yourself that trust
within to know something's calling.
Listen. Pay attention.
As an adult with ADHDI appreciate hearing that because
a lot of our audience is really interested in that lens as well.
Do you do a good job of describing things that confound
(48:07):
us, like time blindness? We often don't want to spend
time doing something that is notgoing to benefit us right away
or we don't need to do it right away.
So there's a lot of pressure to get it done because what you're
doing when you invest in something like this is kind of
ensuring five years from you now.
And the you that's 10 years fromnow and the you that's 20 years
from now is going to look back and be like, you know, thank
(48:28):
goodness, 2025 me did that thingbecause that kick started a
whole bunch of stuff that was very grounding when you start to
really trust yourself and the decisions that you're making.
So I think it's really importantto point that out because it's
easy to let that go by. And then if it's something that
feels kind of ambiguous, like you're like, what, what am I
like, what does it mean to feel empowered?
(48:49):
Like I don't know what that wordreally means.
Like what's the, the tactical thing that's going to happen in
my life when that happens. I think you guys have done a
good job kind of describing thatlike you know you go through a
lot of very specific curriculum in these 10 weeks because
there's a 65 page work like linked you through it that's
very specific. So there's nothing ambiguous in
(49:10):
the actual workshop. And so I appreciate you guys
mentioning those things because I think that's important to
recognize it. Just because you can't see it
doesn't mean it's not there. It doesn't mean it's not tying
your shoelaces together and justcuz you know, it's something you
don't have to think about for 10years or five years or two years
or six months, doesn't mean it isn't something you should pay
attention to. It was a lot of invisible
(49:31):
processes that, as you know on this show, we want to shine a
light on. And so thank you very much cuz I
think you guys did a great job. Doing that, it's always a
pleasure to have these conversations and share time
with you guys. Thanks guys.
Everyone can check the show notes in the follow up for
details about this group and forways to get in touch with Connie
and Sabrina.
Welcome to the Christina Crow Podcast where we connect the
dots and search for more balanced mental health.
Today I am talking to the Co creators of the Permission to Be
Group workshop, Sabrina Bello and Connie Marasco about the
inspiration for the group and with the experience of healing
and relationship within a group of people offers us what that
can bring to your mental health journey.
(00:31):
Sabrina Bello is a trauma informed counselor, conscious
parenting method coach and somatic practitioner who helps
people navigate life's transitions with clarity and
compassion. From healing generational wounds
to finding presence in parentingor processing grief and identity
shifts, Sabrina creates A supportive space for deep and
(00:52):
lasting change. With certifications and somatic
therapy, grief work, and conscious parenting, she blends
science and soul to guide clients back to their true
selves. And Connie is a registered
psychotherapist who helps individuals and couples deep in
connection navigate conflict andbuild more fulfilling
relationships. With training and emotionally
(01:13):
focused therapy and a warm, culturally informed approach,
Connie supports clients in understanding how their
thoughts, attachment patterns, and past experiences shape how
they relate to others. Welcome to the show, Connie and
Sabrina. It's always a pleasure to have
you both as returning guests. Thank you for having us fun to
do this together. Tell us, why don't you tell our
(01:35):
audience a little bit about whatthis group is, the origin story,
why you guys wanted to do it andwhat it was like.
So the origin story of this, I think me and Sabrina were
sitting there just kind of rainstorming ideas for a group
because we really wanted to get together and make that happen.
(01:57):
And we start to see a lot of similarities in what our clients
were bringing in, in terms of relationships.
They were in this place where they knew that something didn't
feel right, but they weren't really sure what to do about it.
And so we call that space, and we'll get into that a bit later.
We call that space the contemplation phase, which is a
term that therapists use often. Mean, Connie, I'm totally
(02:21):
interrupting your train of thought, but I no, no, no, thank
you. Yeah.
So when you're in the field of psychotherapy, you're working
with clients and you're kind of looking to see where they might
be at in terms of changing gross.
And one place where a lot of people, and this is a totally
normal place to be, but it feelssuper uncomfortable.
(02:41):
One place that we find ourselvesin quite often is that
contemplation phase, which is the place where I know that
there's an issue and I'm thinking about what to do about
it. And that space.
Can be real uncomfortable because it's the place where we
start to open up a bunch of boxes.
(03:02):
We are like, oh, something doesn't feel right.
Is it under here? Is it under here a bunch of
boxes? We know what everyone else
should do about it. We just don't know what we're
supposed to do about it. Or maybe we know.
Yeah, we're afraid to. It's too scary to even go there,
right? So I mean, we were sitting
there, we were thinking about those clients of ours and how
(03:23):
they get that place where they get stuck.
And we were thinking about how do we help them through that
stage of contemplation within their relationship dynamics.
Not just the relationships they have with their spouse, but
their friends, their family, even the relationship they have
with themselves, where they're starting to change and
transition maybe into a different version of themselves.
(03:44):
And they're not sure that that version can still be in the
relationships as they are today,if that makes sense.
I think you did great. Yeah, no, I emphasize that whole
commonality in our clients stories, right themes around.
I'm. In this place, I've called you.
I know I need some support. I know I need some help.
I don't know exactly what this is or what to do or I do know
(04:06):
what to do and I'm terrified of doing it.
And what we noticed is just veryfamiliar in our culture as it is
today is that everything is so rushed, so fast-paced.
And it feels like this invasion of that timeline, like the
(04:28):
pressure from making decisions, creating also maybe some radical
decisions, like really things that people look back on and
said, maybe if I slowed it down,you know, it wouldn't have
impacted this decision as greatly as it did because now
I'm thinking back and I could have handled it differently.
So we want to honor that, the reflection period.
(04:48):
We want to take people through an understanding of how their
body is informing them of what'sgoing on, how to really get to
know what is in alignment with themselves, what is true for
them at whatever decision they end up eventually in whatever
time that they're comfortable with that decision.
(05:11):
Yeah. I mean, I think if I understand
what you're saying is that like this, when people are in this
place, it's often a common thingPeople say.
They feel stuck, like they know something has to change.
You don't know quite what to do or if they think they know what
it might be, they don't want to do it, or they're not ready to
do it, or they don't like the outcomes of having to do it.
Just nobody wants to be the cause of hurt or unrest or
(05:32):
making other people uncomfortable.
Often some people are very comfortable with more often than
people that are stuck are the ones that we're seeing.
So they're the ones that are uncomfortable with it.
So whether that's like you don't, you don't actually just
know the technique you need to know or a perspective shift or
you feel really weighed down by like people pleasing maybe or by
(05:54):
being just afraid, like not actually knowing that, you know,
as humans, we're all going to hurt people whether we like it
or not through life. So not that it's OK to hurt
people, but that like, going through life and never hurting
someone is not feasible. Like it's not compatible with
being a human being who's like, functioning and moving forward,
right? So coming to terms with how you
do that in a compassionate and ethical and least collateral
(06:17):
damage way is the skill to reflect, I think, and to know
what you're supposed to pay attention to.
So it sounds like you're saying this workshop series actually
helps teach you that skill? You think so?
Run it before and saw like, you know, everyone left feeling far
(06:39):
more grounded, far more connected to who they are in
order to proceed and whatever isthey want to proceed with.
And that's what we noticed wherepeople maybe were informed by
even environmental factors, where they thought, oh, I have
to decide this because this is what society tells me or this is
how I've been conditioned. Yeah.
(07:01):
Your own unique perspective of the situation where you're at,
your own relationship. We evaluate costs and gains so
people become familiar with the art of processing.
What will my decisions do for me?
How will they impact other people?
And what's it costing me to do those things or what do I gain
from doing this? And to your point earlier when
(07:23):
you said about hurting others, we've noticed and we know this
to be true. There are many people who are so
caught up in the responsibility of others while hurting
themselves at that cost. So this is for those people,
right? Like.
(07:43):
Yeah, I'm stuck because, you know, I'm stuck.
I don't know what to do. I have been conditioned.
You know, Connie and I come fromItalian backgrounds.
Like, you know, we are very familiar with the particular
conditions of that. Viva Italia guys.
Yeah, there is it cultural backgrounds, right?
Where there's a very strong, I don't know if collectivist is
(08:06):
the right word, but there's a, it's a unique diaspora, right?
Like a unique insular, we do this this way, doesn't matter
what happens how other people doit.
Therefore you just do it and shut up and get along, that kind
of thing. Real Italian.
So I'm looking at it from other diaspora that I come from in my
(08:27):
background, but looking at it asan outsider, looking in at
knowing you guys pretty intimately.
But I see a lot of that too, right?
I think a little bit. I think the one great thing
about me and Sabrina working together is that we come from a
different lens, whether that be generationally or even whether
that's culturally, because I'm third generation, so I'm pretty
(08:49):
Canadian. Third or second, I don't even
know, but I'm pretty. Yeah, I'm a federation Canadian.
Yeah. So I think it's a little bit
different depending. But I do think that one thing
that has passed down and I thinkthis is true for a lot of like
really like family oriented cultures is like we're talking
(09:11):
about values, which we talked about in the workshop.
And we, I think and we maybe we could talk, but I think that was
like the biggest part of the workshop when we did it last
time. One value that I think passes
down is family. Is everything family first.
So what does that mean then, when now the thing that the
(09:32):
person that you are becoming is this person who now wants to
maybe put yourself first sometimes?
Like imagine. Or just even what you want is in
conflict with what someone else in the family wants.
Yes. What do you want?
Age. Yeah, Prince.
Yeah. Responsibility, Right.
(09:53):
Wait a minute. I have a very busy life with
young children and my parents need me and I can't asset any
boundaries. I can't assert anything because
they need me. I have to be there.
And now I'm going to burn myselfout because I spread myself so
thin. That's not a radical like
decision around conflict in terms of like losing each other
(10:15):
or ending this relationship. This is the contemplation about
even getting to the place of us being able to communicate.
Hey, I recognize you need a lot of me.
I also want you to know my kids need a lot of me too.
And I need to take care of myself to be available for
everyone. There's it plays into so many
different relationships. We see it with women driven by
(10:39):
careers that consume them, and they're challenged by being a
mom. And this career or sibling
dynamics or romantic relationships really brushes
through everywhere. It does.
And I'm curious about something you guys said a little bit
earlier. So speaking to the generational
piece, so we're like we've got 2Gen.
(11:00):
Xers here in a millennial, right?
The only difference that I thinkthat's interesting that for
immediately comes to mind for meis the pressure and influence of
what you should or shouldn't be doing from social media.
I'm assuming you know, Connie, your generation can manage that.
However they manage it, whether it's managing exposure to social
(11:25):
media by staying off of it or whatever.
But I didn't grow up with that. So I grew up with literally the
people in my real life, like some sort of standard of how you
should or shouldn't do things, not people I didn't know online
or influencers telling me that Ishould or shouldn't do something
or telling me not to settle in arelationship.
(11:45):
Or if he's not doing this, he doesn't care about you.
Oh, those, that stuff drives me crazy.
There's a lot that drives me crazy that I don't rant and rave
about online because I don't want to contribute to the
negative noise and negative energy that's out there.
But there's so much judgement that comes across to women in
(12:06):
particular, but I think to men too, about how you're living
your life, how you're making your decisions, what you're
doing. And it's just, it's obnoxious.
I feel like on some level. And so I really like, I feel
like what you guys were saying is like, let's pump the brakes a
little bit on all of that. Let's think about what we really
(12:29):
should be thinking about and go from there.
Bang on. That's exactly it.
Slow it down. So we do emphasize regulation.
So we do a lot of psycho Ed on like the nervous system and
helping people understand their own physical response to things
(12:49):
and understand that not all of it is in your head and not all
of it is, you know, just here where you can turn on, turn
these switches on and off like. This is very.
Much passed down through experiences we've had, and it's
also living in our body. So sometimes when we're not
identifying the parts in our body, the noise that's happening
(13:13):
inside of it that we're like, oh, this is just stress or this
is just this. We need to take the opportunity
to slow it down to connect to our internal system.
Yeah, that to your point, when that judgement exists, which I
feel right now, we live in such a culture that is dense.
(13:33):
You know it's constant. That means that our nervous
system is hyper aroused. We're always feeling threat,
threat, threat, threat. And so are are sometimes our
reaction in order to protect ourselves is very, very not
thought through. Like it's it's very sudden.
It can be from a dysregulated place.
And so we want to preserve the relationships where people just
(13:56):
are owning. This is the piece where I feel
like I'm not heard, I'm not accepted.
I want to get to this place where I can just feel peaceful
about these relationships. Maybe they're not quite happy.
Happy is another thing that I feel like is just over saturated
(14:19):
because we're just driven. To. 1 area There's so much more,
can we? Say, what do you mean?
If you're not happy all the timein your marriage, that means you
should get divorced, right? Exactly 100%.
If you listen to social media, Imean, it doesn't care, right?
Like, Oh my gosh. So coming back to self is really
the goal for coming to remind people that it is OK, it is
(14:43):
natural be in these stages between these changes in life to
take a moment to pause that I'm OK, I'm OK in this discomfort,
I'm OK feeling hurt, and I'm OK taking the time to process what
to do about it. So I know you can't run me
(15:05):
through the protocol as an example or anything in this
podcast episode, so I'm not going to provide you personal
examples. But you know, if I were
listening to this as a viewer, Imight say like, well, you know,
it's easy to think about some eternal conflict you've got with
someone, say in your extended family or the family you grew up
(15:27):
with, or maybe your current romantic relationship, or maybe
it's it's between adult siblings, who knows, right?
Like those are some common things that come up all the time
and therapy. And often it's just like they
don't see it the way I see it. And maybe it feels like they
don't take the time to care about how I see it.
(15:48):
Is that something that you guys help people through?
Yes, I think that that was one of the big things actually.
I think that that's kind of whatkicked us off a little bit too.
It's. One of the questions that I know
we had from the very beginning is, is that true?
I think we struggle with that a lot.
It feels that way. That's where we get to that
(16:10):
nervous system regulation place.Because what's coming up for me
when I say something and I don'tknow my adult sibling or my
parent makes a sound or a sigh or looks away, do I immediately
fall right back into that narrative or, oh, I know what
this is? This relationship will always be
this way. I could never be myself.
(16:32):
Is there room for change, though?
And we can't know that until we ground ourselves, until we get
to that place where we're regulated, where we know what
the trigger is. So when it comes up, I can say,
OK, what is this actually? Because it's possible that the
relationship could be different.Well, we've never approached it
(16:54):
differently because we haven't been able to up until now maybe.
Yeah, I saw something great the other day.
That was this statement. That is, why don't my adult
siblings, like, see me for the adult that I am now, they still
treat me like I'm the kid version of myself.
And then I was like, yeah, damn right.
And I'm not. Oh, wait a minute.
(17:14):
I do the same thing. I think about them as the much
younger version of themselves. That is, in fact, probably not
at all who they are today. And it's because, you know, we
had get together for a family, get together and boop, everyone
reverts back to their like, teenage self, right?
It's comical. That would make a great stage
(17:35):
play if no one's done that yet. And it would be comical, I
guess, if it wasn't so painful in some ways too, because
there's a lot of patterns and wounds that get constantly that
scabs getting picked off becausewe haven't been able to say,
hey, let's actually both try something different.
Exactly, Yeah. And we love like, you know, you
(17:55):
actually one of the big things is for Connie and I is that
ability to be self aware, which was your point Like, hey, wait a
minute, that's what I do too, right?
Being able to see yourself. That is not only an objective
like it happens in art workshop have learned more about
themselves in terms of where they're at and what they have
(18:17):
tolerance to continue to work through or not like measuring
that regulation piece bridging that gap between an action
right. But but that the pause, the
taking that opportunity to just slow down and think about what
is next. And it helps with everything, of
(18:39):
course, but with the body, with the mind and then getting to
that place where they can rebuild trust.
And I think a lot of people overlook and bypass steps in
rebuilding trust because many are skipping the part of the
awareness. And how do I also contribute to
building that trust? But how do I build trust within
(18:59):
myself? What does safety feel like?
How do I know that if I've neverexperienced it or I can't
actually get my system to know what online feels like?
Every store of that online system we.
Can't actually evaluate how wellwe're providing it ourselves.
Providing, sitting back and waiting, waiting, waiting.
Or receive it. We might not even know how to
(19:21):
receive it. We can have expectations to
receive it. It might be actually around us.
We're actually not picking up the voice.
Yeah. That's so fascinating.
Yeah, yeah, I really like that example.
Yeah, and we do a lot of exercises within.
So Connie and I do a lot of communicating upfront, doing the
psycho education. Like we said, we talked to
people through week to week, certain subjects and themes.
(19:45):
And then we offer practices we do together.
We offer a workbook where peoplecan take the practices and do
them independently if they'd like.
Then we offer also an opportunity for people to check
in with each other. Now is I think one of the most
unexpected unique moments from last group is to see and witness
(20:07):
that coming together. And of course, post pandemic
world where we are so disconnected from each other to
see these. Women reaching out, supporting
one another to let each other know that they're familiar with
that pain or they're familiar with their stories and seeing
that just happened without our guidance, like it was just
(20:29):
reaching just, you know it. Remember I remembered it now,
like thinking back when you asked like, what are some of the
things you know that came from last group?
And that was one of the most special, I think, and unexpected
I got from that because they didn't feel alone anymore.
And that is one of the reasons we created this group is because
(20:50):
people need to feel that there are others.
Connection is so, so important as a human.
Well, yeah, like so from this experiential point of because
both of you work a lot with individuals as well as do I and,
and I work with couples and, andboth of you also work with
couples and parents and I've done groups before too.
(21:10):
And I, I can't stress enough thehealing power of being in
community with other people who are walking a similar path with
you in life. And I think sometimes people
think, well, if they're in the same position I'm in, what am I
going to learn from them? And they, they immediately might
dismiss the idea that a group will be beneficial.
And I think what that doesn't allow for is the thing that no
(21:33):
one has to try out, which is humans wake up every day with
brains that are interested in knowing more and learning more
and moving forward. Like we don't have to
manufacture that. Like that's, that's what the
human condition is, right? So to be able to put that
together in one room with some structured guidance and
experienced, you know, group leaders who know how to help
facilitate that, it's cool in couples therapy.
(21:56):
That's why we say in couples therapy that you don't have to
solve a couples all their problems, but when you catch a
moment and you can facilitate a shift in the session room, then
they know, oh, they can do it now they can go replicate that
and they can be the ones to replicate that through all the
other areas of their life. And you keep working on building
(22:17):
those. But it's about catching these
moments and that when you're working with people individually
is you're creating capacity and awareness for however the client
wants to regard this thing that they've come to talk about,
whether it's like change the waythey feel about it, how they
approach it, invite other peoplein to help them with it.
Like whatever that change quote,UN quote is that they want to do
(22:41):
because that's what coming to. Therapy is about.
That we never get to see them. What happens when they go home
and then we hear about it when they come back in two weeks, but
we don't get to actually watch it happen in real time.
And that's the cool thing about Group, is it not?
I think so. I love group.
Group is my gym. I've always loved group.
OK. Yeah, I do not like group, but
(23:03):
I, well, no, I liked this group,but I was not.
Sabrina knows it took a while for me to come.
Around did. You know, I wanted it to be just
a straight, just a workshop we bought.
You know, it was a lot of peopleand then I wasn't sure how it
was going to go over. I didn't know how much
confidence I had in myself. But that's one thing too.
(23:24):
I think that in working, me and Sabrina work really well with
this. That, and I think I've said this
before, but Sabrina's like a very like, I don't know, I don't
know how to describe it. Like just like a very smooth,
like it comes, it'll come, it'llbe OK.
Everything will come together. Like butter?
Like yes, and I'm like, how do you know where is the proof?
(23:46):
What the? Which is what a lot of our
clients say to. Us, yes.
And so I felt that us doing thistogether is kind of nice because
we bring that I want to lean into a logical space and Sabrina
wants to lean into a heart space.
And I think when you bring thosetwo things together to create a
(24:06):
workshop and to create a group. Yeah, science.
Oh I love. It nice.
Yeah, I think it. It's always wonderful.
I love to learn. Yeah, I was trained in my early
training and my practicum, I hadthe honor of being a Co
facilitator for a pretty intensegroup.
And I think the important thing about a group being led by two
(24:27):
people is that since the group'sabout relational dynamics and
you guys both come at it from different angles and lenses,
you're Co modeling what great healthy relational dynamics are
every step of the way for all the participants as well by how
you relate together. Because people will just be with
you for 15 minutes and understand that you come at it
(24:51):
from a different lens, but you have the same kind of goal in
mind, right? Absolutely.
That is, yes, something we got very good feedback on and thank
you, Connie, because you know, you'd bring me also such unique
perspectives, which is all like that benefits me because I love
to learn. I love looking through these
(25:13):
situations, these things that come up through different
perspectives because I don't believe there's only one way of
looking at something there. You know, it's fascinating to me
how. Yeah.
Our nervous systems have that impact, but also how things, you
know, get filtered in and our experiences and the benefit of
being also from different generations.
(25:35):
We were speaking earlier, I was saying to Connie, you know, I
don't know about you, but my clients don't understand some of
the language that we use. Yeah.
Exactly, right. And then Connie's like, well,
you know, my clients do Gen. Z's, right?
And how this language is just happening, like taking place in
(25:56):
culture and social media and stuff.
And then we get to the same place.
They can hear these words. They can hear what life
transition is like, what people know what life transition like.
You can assume what you know about it.
Most people think it's death. It's not just death.
It's. Every change, we're just.
Menopause, which means, like, death, something.
(26:17):
And then we have burnout. We were talking about burnout,
we were talking about words. And so we were.
It was just really funny becausewe bring it together.
Like you said, like that's what's great.
Like, I love working with Kanye because we have so many various
backgrounds and perspectives, and we just know that at the end
of the day, what we really want for people is to reconnect to
(26:42):
themselves. So Connie, you're a convert now
because you're running the groupagain.
Here I am, yeah. I understand you're the one that
actually drove wanting to run itagain this time.
I really enjoyed was. Was it me?
I'm just waiting. For you, I'm like, crossing my
fingers over here, going OK, OK,Connie, whenever you're ready.
(27:06):
Yeah. I really enjoyed it.
I think Sabrina's right in termsof seeing the group work with
one another. But I think one thing that
really blew my mind was seeing and registering my clients like
or the the clients that were part of the group think like I
said before, thinking about their value system.
How do I engage in these relationships that I'm in within
(27:30):
my value system? Because oftentimes we might show
up at family gatherings and I think that this happens a lot.
We can't be ourselves and. Watching as therapists or.
As club general, just in general, like I think it was
really interesting to me to watch people explore their value
system. And I remember telling Sabrina
(27:50):
we decided to put that piece in.I was like, oh, I don't think
this is going to take long. It blew people's minds.
I think you. Think yeah, because I would.
I am. So a lot of my work is based on
value, symptoms and act. People actually think they know
what their values are, but they are not embodying the values.
(28:11):
And there's so many more values than just the top five things
that you think. And once you start to embody
values, you start to judge less and criticize less.
Connie and I can have eight out of like 12 values that are the
same, and still out of those, they're ranked differently.
(28:31):
But it doesn't mean that we don't get along.
It doesn't mean that we are perfectly aligned.
We can see each other through this.
And what I always find is when you see who you are through
values and when you see what's important to you and to be led
by those values, you can start to soften your judgement and
(28:52):
criticism of other people because all it could mean is
that they have those similar values, but maybe in a different
priority, maybe in a different order.
So now with that information, oh, I can soften this
relationship with you. I can soften my expectations
with you because you're not a complete a hole.
It's not working. Listen.
(29:12):
We just don't have this common ground and that's OK because for
everything else I appreciate. You.
Yeah, it facilitates I think a really important part of working
with someone in relationship which is not taking it
personally. They disagree with you because
when you identify that there's actually core values like the
(29:34):
roots of a tree or like the alignment in your car that you
know unconsciously Dr. you everyday, then it's not that other
people don't have values to yourpoint, it's that they have
different ones and that's OK because those ones are just as
cool too. It's not that you don't have any
overlapping values or there's not umbrella or connected
(29:55):
values, just that the one that shines for you, it is a bit
stronger in one area and it may not be shared by the other
person. So it allows you to make more
space for other people doing their own thing that even if it
grates against you, it's actually not because of you,
because they were trying to, youknow, make your life difficult.
(30:16):
They're not trying to. They just look at it differently
and that's OK. Yeah, that's so.
It's very true. And I think that's one thing
about the whole social media. I love the way that social media
personally can. Teach.
People and bring people to an understanding that's different.
Than the one that they had. I think that there's a lot of
(30:38):
really good. One thing I think that it can
hurt is that there's a lot of language around what boundaries
are. That is not what boundaries are,
not what boundaries are. No weird.
It's so weird what a narcissist is.
Wounding. Why you should cut people out of
your life. Yeah, it's so harsh that.
(30:59):
Whole no contact thing is not tosay that there's not times when
you should walk away. There are absolutely times when
you should walk away, but that is far and away a very, I would
think, more rare occurrence. And there's so many things to
explore before you get there. I have just heard so many
(31:20):
stories of people identifying that their own needs weren't
met, that the other person can'tmeet their needs, and then they
see no point in continuing theirrelationship.
Therefore, boom, we do this thing called no contact.
And and in the same story I've heard this person can say, well,
(31:41):
I know they mean well. I had a wonderful childhood.
I had I didn't want for like anything.
And there wasn't even emotional neglect.
Like there was emotional attention And it's kind of like,
oh, sorry, what's the problem? Like just because someone
couldn't meet you here at this particular time in your life,
but it's done. We're throwing away the
(32:01):
relationship and, and Sabrina, Idon't know if that's maybe what
you were hinting at about making.
You didn't use the word hasty. I'm using that word like a hasty
decision about what you should or shouldn't do in a
relationship because the sittingwith the discomfort of I'm not
getting what I need. And that is whether that's OK or
(32:23):
not that that doesn't mean I'm going to walk away.
Like that takes up a lot of emotional space and time and
energy. And, and I think a lot of people
have no idea how to cope with that, how to cope with that.
That emotional uncertainty is quite devastating.
And, and the closer to the center of your core of a primary
relationship, it is, it's more devastating.
(32:46):
But that doesn't mean necessarily I think, and I
really don't want this to sound like preemptively judgmental to
anyone that's had to do this because I most certainly have
people in my life that are no longer in my life anymore.
So I'm, I'm, I'm looking at it from, from both ends of it and I
wouldn't change any of those decisions.
But none of them came like lightly and none of them came
(33:10):
quickly. And there's this just this place
where the rush to make a whole decision with the information we
have without acknowledging all the information we don't have.
And that you're not even allowedto explore that because that
must mean you don't believe the person or you're shaming them or
(33:31):
what have you. It's like what?
No. Like it's this is how you, this
is how you walk through making avery difficult decision.
It's a really sacred journey. It's an important journey.
It's an important task of adult development, a relationship with
yourself, right? And I feel like it's a task that
(33:55):
is totally off the radar and some pockets of our culture just
blows my mind. But yeah.
Yeah, that's pretty much what we're doing.
It's interesting because you summed it up really there is
this. Sacred base of.
Contemplating what is this decision that I'm about to make?
Can I be myself? What's this relationship going
(34:18):
to look like? Can I test out my theory that
this is never going to change? Yeah, we got to.
Test it out. We have to test it out.
You can test it out without having agreement from the other
side that they're accepting thisproposal.
Or do you know what it's going to look like yet?
Just start doing it, see what happens.
(34:39):
Collect real time data, do your experiment as an end of one out
there in the world, and we'll collect the data and we'll look
at it together. Maybe you were right that.
Yeah, like, good. Now you know, you'll never have
to second guess this decision. Right.
For others, can they see an improvement of flexibility?
(35:01):
Are there moments of thinking back so as your experience as
facilitators, thinking back to the first group experience that
you had and any other groups you've had in the past?
But I guess this particular permission to be group, which I
love that name that were particularly powerful for you
guys to witness without betraying any group confidences
or anything like that from I guess maybe a process point of
(35:23):
view, but you'd like to share. Sabrina, do you have something?
Go ahead. Well, mine I think was we just
so happened to have moms. It just happened that way.
OK, And I think one thing that was really powerful for me was
watching moms like new moms and moms that have been added a
(35:49):
while had work St. kind of come together in this like I don't I
can't explain it. Just kind of like, you know,
this idea of it takes a village,just kind of.
Watching OK and. That was really powerful.
Parenting shows up a lot with women right as the dynamic that
(36:12):
is in question because they so much want to be a very specific
type of mom and. Yep.
They're contemplating how to show up, what's happening.
This is the role that I want to prioritize and make this happen.
In terms of your question or so many, what I think I love most
is now following through in individual sessions, listening
(36:38):
to some of them refer back to the tools and some of that
information that they rememberedin terms of their nervousness.
I know what's happening now, but.
No. It works.
It works. I'm able to witness in my body
that this is how I'm reacting because of such and such.
(36:58):
So it's really rewarding to hearand see and witness.
And then they are connecting thedots themselves, right?
Like OK, now I see it in action and now I'm applying it and it
informs me. Yeah, there's a parallel here.
So I don't know how often folks in groups just in general get to
(37:22):
then go do individual therapy after for the rubber hits the
road work because it's one thingto learn about stuff and the
experiential part of group I think takes it a notch higher.
But then to now go and work withsomeone individually on the
stuff you worked on, to now implement it and change it and
tweak things and experiment and try different things in your
(37:45):
life, that's where the real change happens, right?
And so, you know, the parallel I'm thinking of is like, you
know, as therapists, we do a lotof continuing education and
training. And so many people do training
and then they go use a techniqueor a modality or a new framework
with their clients, but then they don't come back to
(38:06):
supervision to talk about how they've used that technique and
all of its different components throughout different parts of
the work with somebody, with a supervisor and with peers and in
consultation. And that's almost more important
than the initial training that you did because that's like the
real world application of the data and it's so important.
(38:28):
And it I guess, you know, the same thing happens then in
therapy from group to individual.
So I think that's really cool that people are able to do that
because that's got to be pretty powerful.
Yeah. I think one thing that has
changed that I think it's important to say is we were
doing this shorter previously. It was less weeks.
(38:49):
We've extended them because, like I'm said, that values
piece, the piece about values, the piece about actually
identifying our boundaries, really blew people's minds.
The difference between aggressive and assertive
communication? I love blowing people's minds
about that. I.
Don't want to be? Do you have an example to share
(39:10):
with the audience? Sure.
I'll share one. I think often times a lot of
people, I hear this all the time.
Well, I don't want to be too assertive.
And that's what I noticed. They don't actually know what
assertive is, which is kind of Fair.
I didn't either. So I really love getting to that
place where I'm like, OK, well, what do you think?
Assertive communications and realizing that they've aligned
(39:31):
it with aggressive. So being honest can feel
aggressive if you've never done it before.
Saying saying it's harsh. Harsh.
Yes it can if you've always but and one thing I don't think
people consider is though passive aggressive communication
(39:53):
could be just as harsh. But painful.
Just as painful to leave somebody not really knowing how
you selfed, but knowing that something felt weird in the way
you responded. Very confusing versus just
saying. You know what?
I didn't really like that joke or I didn't really like that
comment. And you don't have to say it
(40:13):
like that. You could just, I don't know,
not. Laugh.
That could be enough. You don't have to pretend you.
Don't have to pretend. Yeah, like it's not your job to
make other people who don't tellgood jokes more comfortable.
Or knowing what is your job and what isn't.
And you're so important, so yourfingers in life would be easier
(40:34):
with role clarity. Yeah, Yeah.
That's actually one of the week.So we had.
Yeah, it's like coming, Yeah, getting more clarification,
improved communication. And.
Alignment with values, feeling more empowered with boundaries.
And I know empowered is another word that you know, people love
to use, but it means just havingthe confidence and the ability
(41:01):
to lean into like saying, hey, like this is my limit.
Developing self compassion, resilience.
And we want people to take this away to have lasting change.
And I think what we maybe haven't emphasized enough is
being in Group and knowing that there are other people
struggling, you might not see itthat could be invisible once
(41:25):
your, you know, day-to-day life that there are others that are
in similar situations, are having similar feelings.
And group really allows for thisenergy of bonding and greater
permission to just simply be andlean into more of that.
Yeah, and other people have great ideas.
(41:46):
Someone could say something that's about the same issue that
you have, and you've never heardanyone say it that way before,
and now you have an opportunity to practice saying something.
So it's not about taking someoneelse's words.
It's about understanding and seeing in real time how you're
here and they're there and you've got the same problem and
they approach it from a different way.
(42:09):
And your brain all of a sudden like neuroplasticity is
happening, neurons that fire together, a wiring together in
real time. And you're like, wait a minute,
wait a minute, what if I said that or I said it in the way
that I say it And then you have an opportunity to practice that.
That's pretty powerful. So this one is 10 weeks because
last time you guys did 6 or 8 weeks last?
(42:31):
Was 8. Now what are you doing?
Time. It's Tuesday nights.
Yeah, it's just actually September 23rd.
It runs 10 sessions, so it ends November 25th.
And this is in person or via zoom?
Via Zoom. Yeah, We found to honor the time
frame, people weren't really making it in person, so we just
(42:52):
made this an online. True.
Yeah. And it's in the evening, right?
So if you look and have dinner and then your tea and go sit
down somewhere. 7 to 830. Considering all those, you know,
Mamas that you put their kids tobed, they're not.
That's very considerable. And I want to also say this
wasn't a workshop that came justoff the cuff.
(43:15):
Connie and I worked about 8 months in this curriculum, like
the structure in the curriculum in the workbook, there's a 65
page workbook that comes with this and we're so proud of it.
We are excited to share it, and I think that is one of the other
things that we can take away on the personal take away gain is
(43:38):
that you and I worked really hard and we're really, really
proud of what we are offering here as tools to follow these
steps. They don't have to go in order,
but they're definitely tools that can help reshape some of
the ways that you are strugglingright now.
(44:00):
Yeah, group is open to just people from Ontario currently.
People. From Ontario, I would say we're
kind of marketing the group to like 30 and up.
The reason that we're doing thatis we're marketing the group
with this idea in mind that if we're all kind of in the same
(44:20):
place in terms of what transitions we're experiencing,
that makes the work itself a little bit more powerful.
Sure. So that those are the types of
people that we're. Marketing to right Gen.
Z Don't get mad. Don't e-mail Connie the Gen.
Z version. I'll totally do a Gen. you.
Have to take the language coursethough.
(44:43):
I take it with my little sister all the time.
Yeah. It's just constantly correct me
and tell me I'm old. You can learn my language.
All right, so we'll wrap up herebecause I think you guys have
done a really good job and I feel the vibe even just
witnessing the smiles on your faces and the warmth that you
both have for talking about thisprocess.
(45:05):
This is the kind of healing and real time stuff that's really
fun. It's such a privilege to have
that unfold in front of you and it's really fun.
And I think that people are quite lucky to find the two of
you as facilitators putting thison.
And we'll certainly mention the workbook because a 65 page
workbook is is a pretty valuableresource.
(45:26):
It's something you'll have forever.
Folks, those of you that are interested in this, we've got
the event listed on our website at Dig a Little Deeper.
I'll make sure I link it again in the show notes for people
that are interested. If this round doesn't work for
you, I'm sure they'll run it again.
Maybe in the winter. If there's any kind of list for
the next class that's going to start, you'll be able to get
that information. They'll get back to you right
(45:47):
away. And any last minute words of
wisdom from the two of you for people that are listening that
are kind of interested in whether this might be right for
them or not, because they will have a consult with you before
enrolling in the group. Yes.
So you don't just get thrown in to the deep end here.
You'll have a chance to talk to one of the facilitators here and
(46:08):
make sure it's the right choice for you at this time.
Yeah. If you're thinking about the
group and then you're kind of a bit uncomfortable because it is
a group and you think, oh, I don't know if I'm ready to
share. Just know that just because it
is a group space, it doesn't necessarily, of course, grid
sharing. We think that that would be
helpful, but you're not forced to do anything.
(46:32):
This is entirely your journey totake.
It's your 10 weeks. And so however you want to
engage in the work is good enough.
OK. For me, I would call out to the
spirits of all those people who are really, really stressed out
and overwhelmed with all these questions in their mind and in
(46:57):
their heart to really just remember to take an opportunity
that whatever they put into themselves right now to do for
themselves again will help them maybe in a few years are in the
future at some point. It's not everything is about
this instantaneous change, but one step forward in recognizing
(47:22):
something is stirring in me. I'm interested.
It could just very well be the gateway to a full other level of
fulfilment, peace and calm. Like I think that everyone's
desiring this ease in this worldthat we're living today.
(47:44):
So just slowing down, just offering yourself that trust
within to know something's calling.
Listen. Pay attention.
As an adult with ADHDI appreciate hearing that because
a lot of our audience is really interested in that lens as well.
Do you do a good job of describing things that confound
(48:07):
us, like time blindness? We often don't want to spend
time doing something that is notgoing to benefit us right away
or we don't need to do it right away.
So there's a lot of pressure to get it done because what you're
doing when you invest in something like this is kind of
ensuring five years from you now.
And the you that's 10 years fromnow and the you that's 20 years
from now is going to look back and be like, you know, thank
(48:28):
goodness, 2025 me did that thingbecause that kick started a
whole bunch of stuff that was very grounding when you start to
really trust yourself and the decisions that you're making.
So I think it's really importantto point that out because it's
easy to let that go by. And then if it's something that
feels kind of ambiguous, like you're like, what, what am I
like, what does it mean to feel empowered?
(48:49):
Like I don't know what that wordreally means.
Like what's the, the tactical thing that's going to happen in
my life when that happens. I think you guys have done a
good job kind of describing thatlike you know you go through a
lot of very specific curriculum in these 10 weeks because
there's a 65 page work like linked you through it that's
very specific. So there's nothing ambiguous in
(49:10):
the actual workshop. And so I appreciate you guys
mentioning those things because I think that's important to
recognize it. Just because you can't see it
doesn't mean it's not there. It doesn't mean it's not tying
your shoelaces together and justcuz you know, it's something you
don't have to think about for 10years or five years or two years
or six months, doesn't mean it isn't something you should pay
attention to. It was a lot of invisible
(49:31):
processes that, as you know on this show, we want to shine a
light on. And so thank you very much cuz I
think you guys did a great job. Doing that, it's always a
pleasure to have these conversations and share time
with you guys. Thanks guys.
Everyone can check the show notes in the follow up for
details about this group and forways to get in touch with Connie
and Sabrina.
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