E96: When Rest Feels Like Betrayal: How Living Between Two Cultures Shapes First-Generation Mental Health

Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to the Christina Crow Podcast, where we connect the
dots in search for more balancedmental health.
Today I'm your host psychotherapist Christina Crowe,
and I am talking to Jessica Batras, a therapist based in
Ontario specializing in supporting first generation
young adults, particularly thosenavigating anxiety and burnout

(00:27):
and identity struggles while living between cultures.
Jessica Batrez, I'm going to sayit properly, is a trilingual
therapist based in Ontario and the founder of Ross's Flourish
Counseling, which means roots. Jessica's path into mental
health is rooted in years of frontline work with people

(00:49):
experiencing homelessness, followed by roles in social
policy focusing on housing and immigration.
Today, she brings all of that insight into her therapy
practice, where she supports women, young adults, and the
Latin community and navigating anxiety, depression, and the
weight of cultural expectations.Her work blends clinical care,

(01:12):
cultural awareness, and compassion.
Welcome to the show, Jessica. I'm so excited to have you here
to talk about these things. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm very excited about this. Yeah, absolutely.
So Jessica, you found me from, Ithink hearing the podcast and
reached out to want to talk about these issues.

(01:32):
And as you and I, you know, chatted when we first met and
then I read some of the things that you've written, I was very
excited because I think a lot ofpeople are going to be easily
able to identify with what it's like to be, you know, a first
generation Canadian. I myself am a first generation
Canadian and have grown up in two different countries with two

(01:54):
different really different cultures between my parents.
And so is a like a bicultural person.
I've always felt like I could have one foot firmly in one
culture and I feel more like that culture.
And then when I'm with the otherside of my family I feel more
like that culture. And what I feel like when I'm
just on my own is some new version that no one in either

(02:16):
side of my family experiences other than my siblings.
Yeah, I'm all for sure. I saw a couple years ago in this
movie when I was a teenager, they had like this logo in the
back and it was the movie would be in Los Angeles.
So you said this graffiti. Watch that.
Not so. Yeah.
Yeah. Which means I'm not from here
and I'm not from there. And I think many of us

(02:37):
experience like right now, but where you don't really feel like
you're truly Latina for me and you don't really feel you're
needing either. You're like, like you said, like
this mix that you have invented because you're the first one.
And then that can be very hard because you want to, we love our
culture and so we do want to honor it that, but we are also

(02:58):
this new person, this new generation, and then in a
different culture than our parents did on top of being a
different generation than what they were.
Yeah. So it's hard sometimes to find
them at the middle ground or I guess help their families
understand who we are, why went this way and some things we need

(03:21):
to accept that we decide to leave some stuff behind that
what? Are some of the things
specifically from being Latina that your, your parents and your
grandparents would have you carry forward in terms of values
versus is it easy, Is it hard toimplement those things?
Do they work in Canadian culturetoday?

(03:43):
Did they cause conflicts? What are some of those things?
What's that been like for you? Yeah, I mean, that's a good
question. I think the first thing that
pops up for me is when we talk about Maria Nismo, which is like
this term about women, how they have to be self sacrificing.
And it's all with Maria because in the Latin culture, Virgin

(04:03):
Mary is something very big. The Catholic culture in itself
is something that's very big. I guess I think about novellas
like the female lead is always the one that's very close to the
priest, that she's the good daughter she saw sacrificing.
She's very chaste and virtuous and those are all pillars of
what we call machanismo. But I think like that.
But I was very much like that from my mom and my aunts and the

(04:26):
culture where I have to be common quote Lily and I have to
be chased and I have to be so sacrificing for my family and I
have to put them above version for all that.
I think about my dad's family, they're very, you know, our
family is very tight and whenever somebody needs
something and we're not allowed to say no one, which in itself

(04:47):
like, I think it's very helpful.It's been very helpful for me
growing up and now that I'm a parent too.
But there's other times when I was a kid where I don't want to
bring grandma and grandpa to thedoctor.
I want to go with my friends butI wasn't allowed to say no.
And now now I'm older, I'm like,I have that good issue with them
and I love them and I'm happy for it.

(05:07):
But as you are growing up, sometimes it's hard to explain
to your friends they go, Are youthe one that has to bring your
grandparents to the doctor? Why can they go on their own?
Right. It it's not everybody that had
their grandparents that don't know the language that have
their to translate from the doctor.
Then I had to read that message.My bad.
And my aunts and my uncles, Yeah.

(05:29):
I think too, like I appreciate you saying that when different
languages come into the mix because I think maybe what we
tell ourselves is like, oh, the reason I'm taking my grandma or
my grandpa to the doctor is because I'm the most proficient
person with English. I can understand the things, I
can take notes, I can translate for them back and forth.
So you're going almost as like atranslator in some ways.

(05:53):
And so that can be a heavy emotional burden because
depending on what you're translating, right, that could
be something that maybe a grandchild was never really
supposed to be a part of. But but that's like a very
Canadian view even that I have that I can say that I can hear
myself saying that because that I don't know if that really

(06:14):
exists necessarily in other cultures where the kids are
actually expected to grow up andtake care of their elderly
parents and grandparents. So it's not like we're not
worried. It's not that we're not worried
about traumatizing our kids. That's just not how it goes,
right? Yeah.
It's an honor to be able to takecare of your elders, not a
burden. Yeah, not exactly.

(06:34):
And like how you said it, because it's not that it's not
something that it's done in a malicious way and it's that it's
very much just out of survival. That's and so it wasn't supposed
to be harmful, but in some ways it might have been like you
said. I think what you brought up with
more what we now talk about parentification when you have a

(06:55):
child that's sticking up rules that maybe shouldn't have been
theirs because they were too young.
I think about my mom when she had her second marriage and she
had another daughter with her partner at the time and we were
13 years apart. And at that time he's not my
step dad anymore. So I don't know if it's like I
step that or former spots with my mom.

(07:16):
But at the time, like he would wake up like at 6:00 AM to go to
his work. My mom was a nighttime nurse.
And so I'd be the one who dropped who would be dropping
her off at at daycare. And there was a time where she
was sick and I was the one that was in the hostel bedroom at
night that making sure that she was OK.
So again, some responsibilities that weren't supposed to be mine
that done out of survival because they need their jobs to

(07:39):
pay their bills, which again, it's me having food in a roof if
if meeting some of my basic needs.
But me thinking to everything like that was also something
that was not meant to be. I was, we were 13 years of what
I was like 1518 at that time. Yeah, I, I feel like, so when
I'm listening to what you're saying, I, I feel like there is

(08:00):
this period of time where parents of past generations,
maybe of other cultures, it's not that you didn't consider
that your children shouldn't be hearing the adult conversations
and stuff like that. It's that I think the awareness
that there's developmental stages of development so that an

(08:21):
8 year old hearing things will make sense of it the way an 8
year old does. And they won't necessarily
internalize it the way a 25 yearold would because the 25 year
old knows more about life in theworld, right.
So some things might fly over the 8 year old's head.
However, I think we would like to think we tell ourselves that
as adults, right? That oh, they don't really know

(08:43):
what it means. So therefore it can't hurt them.
And I think part of the problem is, is that, you know, is, you
know, kids hang on to stuff. And so it's not, it's not what
like the words that are said so much as the context that happens
in. So that happens in a scary
context. There's a lot of like bright
lights and loud noises and there's not a safe adult around

(09:07):
who is OK, even though the otheradults I'm helping are not OK.
Like, if I could come home from that appointment with grandma
and grandpa and sit down with mymom in a pack and have a tea and
totally unload on her because she has time for me, then maybe
it wouldn't be so burdensome. But probably mom.
The reason I took them is because maybe mom's working a

(09:29):
second job somewhere and isn't actually available to me, not
because she was a wannabe, but because they're just trying to
survive, right? And so then you get resentful as
a teenager that like you see allmy friends doing this other
stuff, I don't have to do this, to your point earlier.
And then so now you're resentful.
You're hearing stuff that's overwhelming.

(09:50):
It might just feel like the things you're supposed to be
focusing on as a young person start to become not important or
they shrink away. The priorities change.
And then and a lot of like we'revulnerable to a lot of mental
illness at that point because wecan get really, it's heavy, it's
emotionally isolating. And unless you live in a

(10:11):
community where there's other people, either of your same
culture, but not even just of the same culture, but the same
age going through the same thing, then it might be hard to
feel like you even have a right to your feelings.
Because then you feel guilty because you're like, Oh my God,
like I should be grateful that Ihave this opportunity.
I have. What's wrong with me, right?

(10:32):
I don't know. Did you experience that as a
young person? I mean, I actually, I don't
think I told you or when you came here, but.
Yeah, No, I think you hit it runon the nail.
I think there's something that you asked me if it happened in
my head when you were talking, but you talked about how one is
the representment, right? Which is a big piece.

(10:52):
And then you start to kind of shrink yourself because your
needs doesn't feel as important.And then your parents are
dealing with so much. And like you said, the emotional
stage and the age. My parents didn't always
understand that. Like there was a lot of things
stand around me, like you said, when I was a kid, like I think I
was around 5-7, which because wewe studied psychology and, and

(11:15):
we know, we know as professional, that's when kids
start building memories. Around 57 is when my parents got
divorced. And there was a lot of
conversation thrown in the air about my parents, what was going
on and all was happening. And then I remember those.
And sometimes I told my dad and my mom and they're like, you
remember that? And I'm like, yeah, I did.

(11:37):
I do. I still remember that.
That didn't impact me. That was like, maybe I shouldn't
have been in the room, dude. I'm I think it's pretty great
that you could you guys talk about that?
I don't know if it goes well or not, but I just want you I
think. More my mom than my dad, but
like yeah, it's for him it's like some memories that we had

(11:58):
that I still live with him at the time where he like there
were other things that were funny, right.
We were driving with him and he would say how we need to go gas
because the car had done pee peeyet to go fill the car.
And then I mentioned to him one day like how he said that when I
was a kid I like was funny and just like remember that and yes,
I would be somewhere but yeah there were other things that I

(12:20):
remember very clearly that were that weren't so happy.
They were pretty sad and that again, my mom and my dad did
because they thought I wouldn't remember, but I do.
And then you grow up. But then like I said, it's the
resentment once and two eggs, the space that you don't really
have the space to talk about it because sometimes when you do,
then they get this defensive into I did my best.

(12:42):
I gave you everything I did too many sacrifices.
And it's just I'm not trying to train your face that you aren't
a good parent. I'm just trying to tell you that
I got hurt that with some of your decisions.
Here's how it affected me. There's something that you said
when we first met and then you wrote about it, which is why it

(13:02):
is rest feel so hard for first generation people.
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that,
because I think a lot of people will resonate with that.
Yeah, I know for sure. I think there's different layers
to it. I mean, we talked about the
privatification and then there'sa survival, right?
We saw our parents have more than one job, but when they had

(13:24):
one job or multiple jobs to justmake mean ends meet, that and
then sometimes they might have been in toxic jobs.
They might have worked really long hours and they got my mom
that might have done her shift and took on a double shift to
again, get money so that she could bring it home.
Yeah, my mom, my parents pray that she went back to school,

(13:46):
which with me that because her studies in what they might have
were not equivalent here. And then she was a teacher, but
that would take too much time and becoming a nurse in Quebec
was faster than getting a teaching degree.
So that decided to do and it wasneeded because that that helped
us financially eventually. But as a kid, I watched my mom

(14:08):
like going to school, trying to make new ends and again, the
parents vacation and her seeing her just work so much.
And like you said, we talked about like feeling shrinking
herself because we feel bad about asking about her needs.
And so to compensate for that work, like we also try to be as
productive as we can to help other parents as we grow up.

(14:29):
And then as adults, again, we try to just work, work, work and
do everything that we can. One we don't, we might be afraid
we have that scarcity in mind that what if I lose my job?
But if I don't have enough money, what if I miss on this
opportunity until we work, work and we keep pushing ourselves.
And again, even if we might not need, we might take on psychics

(14:51):
just because it feels safe. Yelling at me.
Yes, I know, you're right. It's the overwork over function.
I need one more degree. I need one more course.
I need one more to prove it to myself, to prove it to other
people to be productive. I hate productivity culture.

(15:13):
I hate it so much. Yeah.
And then I there, there's another thing that's very that
pushes it to because we're culture.
I mean, North America is very much on individualism and on
productivity, though on top of us seeing it all our lives with
our parents that tried to survive or slap, our society
also keeps dying. It's like you have to be
productive. You have to be to be a member of

(15:35):
society. You have to be productive and we
are rewarded by more and more creativity that we get there.
But that like the whole I want to climb the corporate ladder
like not based on your predictivity there's.
Like the The Gen. ZS are going to blame
capitalism, right? Well.
And I do. I don't imagine.
Yeah, you do. I'm the anti capitalist crowd.

(15:57):
I'm always wondering like what what's ethical capitalism?
Because I don't know that socialism or any of the other
stuff is the answer either, right?
I think it's like being in when you finally get to a place, OK,
this is a couple layers here. I want to slow down and distill,
right? Because you make my brain light
up on fire because this is so relevant in so many different
ways. So there is the generational

(16:18):
component of having watched exactly what you said.
Your parents basically give everything of the brightest part
of their adult years to survivaland then you watch that.
But in a country where you weren't supposed to have to
survive yet here they are right hand to mouth, paycheck to
paycheck, and it's all for us. Quote.

(16:39):
I'm doing your quotes. Quote UN quote.
So then you feel like, well, I better enjoy my life.
Like I better show that I was worth it.
So then it's almost like you're not a human anymore.
You're like a product of something.
So then everything you do has tobe show everybody that it was
worth it, what your parents wentthrough.
So it's almost like you lose your opportunity to just have a

(17:01):
life unencumbered, right? I mean, you could argue
philosophically, maybe nobody gets a life unencumbered.
I'm just saying ideally, it'd benice to not have strings
attached to who you become, you know, and what kind of job like
you get to do what you love. Now, we talk a lot about ADHD
because I want to talk about where the mental health troubles
come in. Because when you're going,

(17:23):
going, going, you know, people go until they hit a wall at some
point. And then if it's not OK to talk
about exhaustion or burnout or not having balance in your life,
like you can work hard. And it's not that you have to
work hard, play hard, any of that stuff, whatever it is that
you want to do. You just have to have like a
routine and balance. You have to take be able to take
care of yourself as a human being.

(17:44):
Because you know, as some wise person said once, we're not
human doings, we're human beings.
And what does that mean? There's a time in your life to
go hard. There's a time in your life to
reflect and there's a time in your life to give back and help
other people. And they're like stages of adult
development and maturity, right?And you could argue it's like a

(18:07):
luxury to sit back and look at that and feel that because
obviously you have the time to think about that.
Therefore you're not working hand to mouth.
Maybe, you know, so I get it. I get that it's complicated.
But the the upside, I say sometimes of ADHD and not
knowing that you have it, is if you're hyperactive and you're
propelled forward, whether it's externally or internally, it

(18:29):
keeps you moving. And that is one of the things
that keeps you from sliding downinto depression and doing
nothing. So it's not an upside.
Like, yeah, it's a superpower. It's certainly not a superpower,
but it's it's a factor that in the right circumstances can be
protective because what it protects you from is depression
until you stop. And then you stop probably

(18:52):
because you've been forced to stop from life, from sickness,
from illness, from divorce, fromwhatever.
And that's when the depression comes.
And then what happens? Like cult cultures.
I guess what I want to ask you is what have you seen happen?

(19:13):
And you don't have to share anything personal obviously
about your own family history, but just in general within the
community. How do the generations before us
cope with what we can clearly see is probably depression?
I think that when we think of their generations before, I
haven't always seen people cope.I mean, they try to ignore it.

(19:33):
And then like you said, people get they get sick.
And what we hear a lot is like, we have like this slogan that
just keeps saying Italy, which means they just keep trying and
just to push in. But again, people get sick.
And even when they get sick, it's like, OK, it's if the
depression, yes. And they won't say it's
depression. They'll call it stress.
They'll say I'm tired, they might say I'm exhausted.

(19:56):
That's. What depression feels like.
I think about my mom because shehad like severe, severe mental
health as I was growing up. She was actually diagnosed and
she has been followed for her mental health but it was worse.
She had an accident and then shehas to catch follow her for her
because she gained PTSD. But most people in the community
that were judged she acquitted towards her.

(20:16):
Because once she wasn't working anymore and she, she had mental
health and I think there was a time where I was, she wasn't
able to move and she wasn't doing well at home.
And it was like you're Lester, she wasn't working anymore.
But again, all of it follow me. And so at the time I was going
to church and so I had had the sisters to help with meals and

(20:38):
stuff. Then one of the sister which I
was resending because she was from that island community like
me, she came to me and she askedme what my mom and I told her
what was happening. And then she said also she's not
faking it. And I was just so angry inside.
I'm like, no, she thought like this is not she's not anything.

(20:58):
This is not easy. This has been very hard on it
was very hard on me and so I wasvery frustrated and very angry
towards the the reaction. And I wasn't very angry for my
mom because I'm like, instead ofyou maybe showing compassion,
you're being judgy towards her. But again, there's I haven't
seen growing up much space wouldbe able to talk about it and

(21:22):
heal. I think it's different with our
generation, where I see it more welcome or being slowly being
destigmatized. Yeah, be happy about that.
Or maybe it's the algorithm based on social media.
I know we get stuck in the weirdest algorithm sometimes.

(21:43):
So have you found ways in your own, your own personal life to
be able to try and make a littlebit more room to have
conversations like that? Yeah, I think.
My family again, I'm I think in a way I'm blessed because I'm
one of the first one that has completed studies and I went to
grad school so that there is a respect for my family behind

(22:05):
that to when I talk for most of the time I'm also the eldest.
So there is, I feel like I'm being listened now when not when
I was a kid, but now because of the experience that I have that
are mostly professional where ifthey say something about mental
health and I corrected, they won't be defensive like they
were when I was younger. Hallelujah, that's really great

(22:28):
to hear. But other things have happened
too. Like I think about my grandma,
she has Alzheimer's and that wasvery hard for me to accept it.
And it took forever for them to be comfortable talking about her
symptoms to the doctor because they just get minimizing it.

(22:49):
And I remember telling them a couple times, like, I don't
think that they can multiple pills the same day as normal.
You guys have to walk it that, do something.
She doesn't access it. That and I would try to have a
door situation with my dad at the time and he wasn't
understanding. And eventually when he got
supports, they actually did the recommendations I had given to

(23:12):
them. They was like, Oh well, all this
time to think I was right. And maybe that's why in power,
they're more. Old.
They don't even insure it. All this time I was arrested.
Yeah. Here.
When in doubt, reference the T-shirt.
It's real hard, right? Because it's like if you admit

(23:33):
that something's going on that'sinvisible, that you can't see,
we, we start to feel like we lose our power.
It's really scary. And then and then we're
vulnerable to the doctors and the system and everything right
Then that feels really scary to people because then you're
navigating also may be a culturally different healthcare

(23:55):
system then here may not respectyour values and you don't
necessarily get to choose who you get referred to.
No, no, here you get who you getand you don't get upset, right?
That's like the Ontario motto. It's like getting served
broccoli. And so you don't, you have to
make the. Best of what you have.
Right. So being able to, I think,

(24:17):
especially as a woman, like practice skills of no, here's
what I need and I just need you to slow down and listen to me.
Like to be able to say that to somebody in a position of power
and authority is got to be really hard if it's not
practiced, you know, whole life until suddenly you're an adult.

(24:39):
Exactly like if you grew up and you were a kid that wasn't
supposed to talk back, that was supposed to listen and obey, and
now as an adult you have needs, but you never voiced your needs
growing up. But how are you supposed to do
it at work? It's like you said, it's very
hard that sometimes it's also what are my needs like?

(25:00):
How can I learn to recognize them?
Like is it that I'm tired? Is it that I'm angry because
maids are not being mad? And then the resentment behind
that. And it may be different
complaints. They might be like a bias of at
work or at home. I think you're right and I think
so. I think one thing that's
important for us to talk about, so I can imagine anyone

(25:23):
listening to this conversation right now is like, yes, like
their fist pumping, like they get it.
And lots of different cultures will have similar.
On the outside it looks the same, but I wonder if on the
inside there's more barriers, whether it's like racism,
systemic, like whatever that that you know, you've even faced

(25:44):
personally or that is experienced in the Latina,
Latino, Latinas community. And can you talk a little bit
about that? Because, like, what do we need
to know to make sure that we're paying attention to all these
things because they might feel invisible to people who are not
from the same community? Yeah, I think you brought racism
because a lot of times it has animpact.

(26:07):
Where we talked about how we hadto push yourself because that's
all we saw growing up with our parents.
And we want to make sure that we're under under sacrifice.
And then there's also the reality that for racialized
people, immigrants, there's thislayer because opportunities

(26:30):
don't come around that often. Sometimes they might have been
very hard to get, might have worked very hard to get it and
in a way people might have thought at you or just not being
helpful in the way. You don't have to be too, too
vulnerable here, I'm sure, like even regardless of what you've
gone through, you've seen other people go through it.

(26:53):
Yeah, no. Well, let's say I think I'm my
best friend. She studied Med school.
And while she was completing herstudies, she had three kids.
And at some point, she had to do, I believe it was a resident
she at the time. And she was hoping to get some
accommodation because she was supposed to do her internship in

(27:14):
a particular place. And she was hoping to have a
little bit closer to home so shecould be with her spouse and the
kids. And there was no flexibility
around supporting her when she just had a kid.
And because she had, she could stay close to her family.
Yeah, she had to go during the week doing I think it was her

(27:37):
residency or something along an interesting where she had to do
some practical thing. And then on the weekend she will
come by and see her family. And then later on, I think it
was maybe one or two years, she got shared it with one of her
classmates and the classmate hadshared how like, Oh well, I
asked and they didn't make any fuss about it.

(28:00):
So obviously she was, she was already angry back then about
like having to do all. This was like a white classmate.
Yeah. And then my best friend is
black, so she knew that they were being rigid and then we're
going to be helpful. And then when that happened, it
was like a confirmation of what she already knew.
Feeling like you have to prove yourself or do twice the work in

(28:21):
order to get the same. Yeah.
Or like the whole idea of what she said was what we talked
about back then was the idea that because you're black, they
see you as if, but hard labor isnot hard for you.
It's just meant for hard labor. Oh my God.
Yeah, just like this there's different I don't know how much

(28:41):
we on this because we talked with her, but there's like idea
behind slavery that be like yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then they're like ready backthen as well.
That kind of proved that black people have more tolerance to
pain. And that has, well, the years it
has like this taken away some oftheir humanity because when

(29:03):
things are harder, it's like, oh, but you're black, you're
going to be OK when it's not like I'm human, like my skin
color has nothing to do with. It, it's so you're speaking to
something that's near and dear to my heart with this example,
which it's like an adjacent kindof topic, which is the issue of
psychological safety in medicine.

(29:24):
And psychological safety simply just means that you, you know,
even if what you have to say isn't pleasant, you're still OK
to say it because you know that at the end of the day, your
voice is respected and, and no one's going to punish you for
saying something. So psychological safety when you
know you have it doesn't necessarily mean it's.
Easy. Doesn't necessarily feel like a

(29:46):
warm blankie, but you, you don'thave to hide who you are in
order to survive in a system or in a team or in a company or
whatever, right. So in medicine in particular,
where all that's where all the research and psychological
safety originated actually was in examining medical teams who

(30:09):
had high rates of patient error versus low rates of patient
error and better outcomes. And so the teams with better
outcomes have more reported rates of error on paper, but
that's only because they actually freely talk about them
when there's low rates of patient error.
It doesn't mean it's not happening, it just means no
one's talking about it and they have poorer outcomes.

(30:31):
So then they went to look at, well, what are the conditions on
those teams that the people feelfree to speak up.
And traditionally in medicine, it's almost like the military,
like it's a command and control.You don't question authority
above you. The rules are in place for a
reason. You take your orders and you
carry them out. And that the spirit of that is
meant to keep people alive. That is for patient safety and

(30:54):
clarity. Right, But the problem comes
when, to your point, there's different things going on and
different variables that don't fit this clean cookie cutter
mold of how it was back in the day.
So you can't run a residency program as much as I'm sure a
lot of the old guard wants to like it's 1950 because it ain't

(31:15):
1950 anymore. People lead complicated lives.
And if you want talented people,you have to figure out how to
keep them right, which means being flexible and talking to
people about, you know, like people have babies at different
ages than they used to 20 years ago.
How do you figure that out? How do you speak to all of that
kind of stuff? And so when I do part of that

(31:36):
work, there is this hidden agenda, quote UN quote, in
medical curriculum that there's a lot of racism packed into the
system where whether it's patients in a waiting room
saying, I don't want to see, I only want to see a white doctor
or like that kind of stuff happens.
It happened a lot during COVID. It was terrible, some of the
stuff that people heard. And it's unbelievable to me that

(32:01):
we are not, like, laying down, kissing the floor, that these
doctors and nurses who continue to go to work to take care of
people who abuse them all day long.
And they come back again the next day, right, because they
believe so much in what they're doing.
And we can sit back and say, like, yeah, we just assume that

(32:22):
we're always going to have that talent, and we don't treat them
well all the way around. And now our healthcare system
feels like it's in shambles because so many people left
because they're tired of it. And now we're laying in the bed.
We all made, you know what I mean?
Everybody participated in this. And so we got to find our way
out of it. But I'm so sorry to hear that
that was the experience that your friend had and that that

(32:43):
you. Because it.
You must feel helpless watching it, too, as it's happening
because. Yeah, she couldn't speak up
because it didn't feel safe to speak up and say something, you
know? Yeah, I think when you have a
friend that you left early and you wish that you could be there
for them and there's nothing that you can do about it.

(33:04):
I mean, you feel their pain, youfeel their rage.
And I think for me, it's like one of the reasons why I always
see that special work if political, because whether it's
your friends or your client or the community organization that
you might be working in, well, Ithink they're always very much
involved system impact our everyday lives and different

(33:28):
spheres. And sometimes, obviously, if
you're part of a marginalized community, you'll see it more
than others, right. I mean, we're talking about how
racism implies you being able torest.
Sometimes opportunities not there.
You have to keep pushing the system that's just based on
clearance and that just doesn't value you as a human being.

(33:48):
Yeah. I think if you're a white or a
white passing person like me listening to this conversation
and your colleague, well, what, what can I do?
Like, what am I supposed to do? Like I was born into this body,
into the skin. So I think when I figured out
I'm supposed to do is I'm supposed to pay attention.
I'm supposed to recognize when there's extra work and burden

(34:09):
being done. To your point, it's a luxury to,
I think focus just on the work and light.
So I think if you know, when we say therapy is political, all
therapy is political, which is broad spectrum and populations
and it comes down to 1 by 1, thework we do with people.
So if we bring it back down to focus on that, and to your
point, sometimes things are going on that in the background

(34:33):
when we leave a session and, or even the work we're talking
about. We don't get the luxury of just
not talking about these broader issues and how they impact
clients and people and communities and everything that
people are going through becauseeveryone's doing the best that
they can with what they have. And, and we need people to be

(34:56):
able to like, I think I'm picturing, I don't know if you
were in a kid, you played that game at recess where you had
like a parachute and you flow itup and then everyone's right.
That was like an elementary school.
I feel like that's what you got to do white people.
You got to throw the parachute up and get underneath with
everybody and make space like you have to allow space because

(35:22):
it is easier for us. It is US meaning white or white
passing people. Because IA lot of the same
problems that any of my people of color peers have.
But the burden I don't have is proving that I have a right to
exist here, right? That the default of anything is

(35:45):
I'm the default of everything. I'm not a special new category
of anything, right? And and I get that just even
being in that place is so much emotional burden and weight and
work. And I applaud all the people
that talk to all the people in their communities and find a way
to get them to slow down and listen.

(36:06):
Because until you experience it,I think it's really hard to you
can, you can say all the right things and then it's really hard
when you're in it to be like, oh, oh, this is the shit I
learned about in that course. What do I do now?
Right. Yeah, yeah.
I like the press technology because it's something that is

(36:28):
very communal. If you want change, if that's
what you, yes, there's a whole other community.
That's how we change things. I can try to push the needle
alone, but if I'm alone and I'm the only one trying to, of
course that needle is not going to go very far.
Whereas it's just many of us. Then we can make it faster, make

(36:49):
it better, make it quicker. But then again, it's very
complex as human beings. And again, it's hard to Unsee it
sometimes when it doesn't affectyou.
And then it's also, like you said, like once, first when you
see it, like, what do I do? And then there may be some guilt
around it too, like, oh, all this happened and I hadn't done
anything or I've been part of it.

(37:11):
What I keep telling myself because we all have some
privilege. Like I think about me, I'm a
woman. I'm racialized, yes, but also
with only citizenship. I got what my parents went
through to be a citizen of Canada.
I haven't had to do with someoneof my cousins or sister-in-law
has to do to become a citizen. Like I grew, I was born with it.

(37:32):
I didn't do anything with it to get it.
It just I have it right. Absolutely.
And so, and we all have some privilege that we were born with
that we just happened to have and learn about it.
And being able to realize like, what is what are my privileges
and where can I pick up and where, what is the space that I
can take is pretty much what's the most important.

(37:57):
Yeah. Do you have any experiences that
you have that you can share, that you're comfortable sharing,
where people have really steppedup and surprised you?
A good one. I grew up in Quebec and in
Quebec I felt my regressions almost every day, especially
when I would go and look for a job.

(38:18):
But I would give up my resume, Iwould present myself and they
would still ask me like, do you speak French?
I'm like, I've been talking to you in French for at least 2
minutes. Like really that's that's your
first question, Not like when are you available?
Like what, Like what hours can you work?
Like your first question towardsme is do you know French?
And it was frustrating for me because first I would I would

(38:40):
vote that wage and at the time Ididn't have, I knew it racism,
but I couldn't like when the word micro regression came
about. I'm like, oh, that's what I felt
all those years without questions.
When I moved to Ontario, anotherreceipt didn't happen in Terry.
I just think that I didn't feel it at present and even though

(39:01):
like I did many social work backin Montreal, but when I did my
graduate studies in Ontario, like we had whole conversations
about racism and make regressions and how it impacts
our society in our systems. And I think that to me was very
impactful because I finally had language to what I was
experiencing for years. And again, like most of the

(39:24):
teachers were whites. The fact that they understood
what it was, they could talk about it.
They could give me language to the teacher that I really like.
When I went to her and I told her like, I really left your
classes, but every time I leave your class that I felt very
activated and I but with time I'm like, OK, that was just like
my body was going to something that I didn't know was there.

(39:45):
So how did that teacher respond that allowed you to continue?
Like, did you continue the conversation?
Yeah. Yeah, she was very warm and she
said that it was normal, that itmeant that I had to keep
ignoring it, that she was there for whatever I needed to talk
about that. I thought she was a really good
teacher. I enjoyed her class.

(40:06):
And again, I'm a big nerd. I enjoyed listening to teachers.
I might be waking up in the morning and having to get myself
there, but once I'm there and I'm missing it, I just don't
have the information. But that was like one of my
favorite classes when I was doing my grad school, and I
really enjoyed being able to have all those conversations
because it didn't happen in my undergrad.
And there was only one teacher in my whole four years that

(40:29):
mentioned how racialized people didn't have the same
opportunities as white people. And she was a white teacher and
she was talking about it and nobody did anything in the
class. You're kidding.
No. And that was like my.
Goodness. Hi.
In my years of underground in Quebec that I ever heard
somebody talk about how racialized people don't have the

(40:51):
same global opportunity. In a social work degree.
Anything and I think it just shows at like people might not
want to have a conversation. And then again, growing up in
Quebec, I heard a lot of people saying that recent didn't exist
anymore. There wasn't always the space.
And I still see it today, right?They have a my whole family is
there and I grew up there and I've been in September of been

(41:14):
10 years since I'm off to Ontario.
So whenever I go back, it's verynostalgic and I keep up with the
news. But there's a lot of new laws
that the government is implementing that they won't say
it, but when I see them, they are very specific towards
rationalized individual, yeah. QQ is a different place, I

(41:36):
think. I'm not a Quebecker.
I've known and loved lots of Quebeckers and the whole deal
there. It's not like it's super
different from the rest of what goes on in Canada.
It's just much more specific to the French language and French
culture, French Canadian culture.
And so I don't want to speak to it myself.
You're more of a Quebecker than I could ever be.

(41:56):
Is like, you've lived there, youwent to school there, you speak
French, you know, I don't. So what I, what I will say is
what you're making me think of is like, you know, as a kid.
And this is like in the experience, I'm sure other
people have experienced this, but you walk it, you're in a
friend group and people are talking and then you say
something and everyone just totally ignores you.

(42:16):
It's like you're not even there.And they're not doing it to be
mean. So it's not a malicious thing
that you're being ignored. It's just like a common
experience that you whether you came in a beat too late or it
doesn't make sense, or you're blurting it out.
And so they're actually ignoringyou because you're interrupting
and they're, they're just focused on the person that's
talking because 100% you didn't say the thing when there was

(42:40):
like a gap in the conversation. You said it while somebody else
was speaking, right. And so I feel like sometimes
when you navigate through different cultures, it's like
that. It's like you, you're here,
you're taking up space, you're aliving, breathing human being.
Somehow everybody is ignoring that you're there.
And it's like, why is that happening?

(43:01):
Right? That's, that's what it kind of
feels like. It's like you're there if you're
going to school, you're paying taxes, you're contributing to
the economy, to the culture, youspeak the language actually and
probably properly, right? Like probably.
Going to have a nice French. French, French first.
I didn't know what a French onceI started school.

(43:22):
Yeah. But I think with a little bit
back to what we talked in the beginning, where you don't feel
like you're part of the culture.I mean, people, Spanish people,
when they meet me and they know I speak Spanish, they're like,
oh, she doesn't have an accent. She speaks really good.
But if I will learn what in my life, they'll tell me, yeah, you
have a Canadian accent. And then to give it to people or
to fish people. I have an accent as well when I

(43:44):
speak. And so you never fit in.
Yeah, I've been told I have an Ontario accent.
What is that? I don't even know what that is,
right. But so like I grew up in Texas
and so Spanish is the other language if you're going to
learn another language, I grew up much closer to understanding
and speaking Spanish. And then in the ninth grade, I
finished that there. And then we moved back to Canada

(44:05):
so that it became about French. But my, so I took French in the
ninth grade. But like, you know, my French
was taught by like a retired American Airlines steward.
And so had a really thick Southern drawl.
Like a Texan accent is even a different accent than the rest
of the South. So I I learned I heard it in
that accent, so nobody wants to hear my French.
It's atrocious. Like if I go to Quebec, I'm like

(44:26):
my husband, I can talk. Like that's what they want.
I'm very self-conscious of it, but because of because I've been
told like that's atrocious. What's have what's coming out of
your mouth, You know, the very it's not even like they
appreciate you trying. It's like no, like no, stop

(44:48):
doing that. But it definitely feels like
it's another culture that I can't.
Access, yeah. And yeah, even even for me, like
I was born there when I grew up there, I didn't I don't remember
everything like I was at home, which is one of the reasons why
I left. It didn't feel like home.
It didn't feel like I would havea place career wise there.

(45:10):
And like I said like it was justfor me.
Microaggressions like there's a time we're talking about
healthcare. I think this memory is probably
ingrained in me because it was just awful.
I. Had I had a foot injury during
the trip and then when I came back home, my mom said OK, it's

(45:30):
been a week, you should be able to walk normally.
You're still injured. Let's go to the clinic, let's go
get some X-ray, let's see what'shappening.
We were trying to get some X-rays and obviously I was in
pain. The nerf wanted me to put my
feet in a certain position. I was struggling because I was
in pain. Her reaction was like geez the
friendship said yes, then I forced myself to put my foot in

(45:53):
the specific position even if I was in pain and then when she
had the X-ray she came back withher hand down and said you have
6 broken toes. My gosh.
Bones, not toes. But yeah, that's why I struggled
to put my foot in a certain position.
It's just I wasn't able at all. My body wasn't helping because

(46:14):
it just couldn't. And her reaction was to ask me
if I knew French. It wasn't that I didn't knew
French, it was that my body wasn't able to do it because it
wasn't functional at the time. And it just shows how well.
Yeah. So for me, it was just it was
things like that that would happen so often that just when I
think of by the love, this thought.
But there's those things that I love when I go back, specific

(46:37):
places that I love going, then Ialways try to make time for
going. And my whole family is there.
I'm the only one that moved whenI see my whole family.
Like I'm very fortunate because I have my parents.
My dad's family is very big, my grandparents are there.
My grandma had like 7 kids and they each had like 4 kids.
Wow. Very big family and so and I,

(46:58):
and sometimes I regret it cuz asa parent, like I would love to
have that support that I don't have here cuz they have much
people around. That's.
But then I think about like those incidents and I'm like, I
don't want, I don't want to liftthem again.
And I definitely don't want my kids to ever experience
something like that. So they're like this wallet that
is always. And then my husband, I mean, he

(47:18):
met me when I was like fed up with Quebec.
Yeah. I basically feel the deal where
he's like, I never want to move there.
I'm to Ontario, so has Ontario been softer experience then or
more welcome what's more like? I won't say that there has been
many reasons and there's definitely has been.
I mean, I'm never gonna escape or wherever I go in the world,
but I haven't felt that like I would say that Quebec, it was

(47:42):
almost daily. It's it's not that way, felt
that way here for me. I can't speak to others, but for
me it haven't felt that way. I remember like I moved to
Toronto and eventually wanted tobuy and we ended up buying in
Oshawa, but not as a versus Toronto.
And so that was a big fear for me right there.

(48:02):
Also drama was there. How white is it and is it gonna
be? And like, if there's gonna be,
what a bad experience. But so far, I mean, it's been
it's been good. I mean.
You are so good in the schwa. Schwa's treating you good.
OK, That's really that. I'm.
I'm not laughing at that, that you even had to have that
question. I'm laughing because I

(48:23):
understand Oshawa. Yeah, nice.
And like bigger in age ice. But then how the market is
squirting. That was like early 2020 when we
prices were really bad, especially for me because again,
I grew up in Quebec, prices weredifferent.
I never thought that I was struggle to get a forever home.
I mean, I grew up there. People buy one house that's your

(48:44):
forever home already. People buy different property
before getting your forever home.
And I didn't understand that like why?
And then again, the frustration,right?
You grew up, you did everything that your parents so should to
do. I work hard.
I got my degree, I got a career and I hit the for a home.
Yeah. I have to learn how to every
work. Yeah.

(49:05):
Yeah. It's like, there's when you
speak to like, growing up in a culture where there's like, a
way of doing things and it generally works.
And then you have to be in a place where, like, everything's
different, Everything's new. And your elders can't even give
you advice because the way they whine you will do it doesn't
work either. So unless you have, it's so
important to reach out to havingother peers.
There's just one more thing I want to touch on.

(49:27):
Very nice. And the thing I'm interested in
and curious about, and that is like the machismo culture
because you you mentioned it so.Yeah, and then and I love my
family, but I think that's something that I grew up a lot,
Sienna, I really like this book by Mickey Kendall and it's

(49:48):
called Hood Feminist Man. And I talked about recently in
one of my blogs that when I talked about madanismo, because
there's that there's a line there that taught me and I love
reading. I read a lot, but fiction books
are a little bit harder because I usually have to process them.
And the point like I read this line that said that I don't
remember word reward, which is along the lines how you face,

(50:11):
you learn about sexism from the people that you love.
And that I had to put the book down because that was that was
like 1 sentence. It was just one sentence, but
that touching the EV and I was like, what is this?
Maybe the break? Because, yeah, growing up, I
remember seeing it and what it was my mom was doing more

(50:34):
supposed to me than my brother because like poor David, he's
been through so much with a divorce.
Lily, I suffered it too. He needs a break.
He needs more time. And then that just it made me
irresible. But then it touched me.
But then I also grew up thinking, not that I had to do

(50:58):
it. Like I was very firm.
Like whenever I have a partner, I am not repeating this.
Yeah. One of the things that I like
with my partner, that was that the first time I saw his family
and his dad was in the kitchen, I'm like, OK, good.
Good. Son, because I didn't want to
replicate that. There's a time with my mom and
my setup at the time they went on a trip, but for a month and

(51:20):
my brother came to me. He's like, what are you going to
cook for me? I am not kidding you.
And then I told him where you'regoing to help me clean the house
and he. Really.
I never cook for him and he spent the whole.
He's not cooked for me. Fat food, it's my aunts to eat.
But again, like I saw my aunts, they were mostly the ones that

(51:41):
would stay at home while their husband would go and work.
I think as much as I left my dad, my dad, he's like very much
on brand for it that he like he's still the man that he come
from work. He sits down at the kitchen and
my stepmom brings him the food and his drink and all he has to

(52:01):
do is to sit down. And again, like he had a long
day at work. Again, it's not something that I
wanted to replicate that there was my first pregnancy.
He was trying to be nice and he was trying to make me some food,
and while he was making the egg,he was asking me how to make the
egg. I'm like, you're over 50.
I don't. Know how to.

(52:22):
Make an egg and again, it's it'svery normalized.
I think for me, I must have maybe with the frustration
growing up where I was like veryhard like this is not going to
be in the future. I don't want this to be for my
kids and then there's like a balance there because I was
parent to fight. So I don't want to prepare my
kids, but I also don't want to two boys and I want to make sure

(52:44):
that they're not going to grow up and think that they can
either to them like resident with the Fallon sometimes like
how old are you and what can youdo at your age that yeah.
It's the difference between wanting to dope on your kids as
a mother, regardless of the gender of your kids, but but
then also knowing that you've got to do it in a place where I,

(53:07):
I'll be damned if I'm going to raise sons that I'm going to
pass off helpless young men to, to a partner one day, right?
And it's like, I had this momentwhen the kids were little.
There's like 3 boys all under the age of say, like 10.
And I walked into the family room and I was like, look like a
Bob went off and I was crazy. Like it was stuff was

(53:29):
everywhere. And they were unbothered because
at that point, you know, we'd clean up after them and we'd
clean up together, clean up, clean up.
Like the clean up song, we wouldsing it and we'd all clean up,
but it was still on me to start the clean up song, right?
And I just kind of thought I, I will not survive this if I'm
like doing their laundry and doing everything because I had a
career, like a full time career at that point.

(53:51):
I was, you know, helping keep the roof over our heads as well.
And so we made this rule and it was a bit arbitrary.
Is that the day you turn 12 is when you start becoming
responsible for your own laundry.
Then that simple rule and and I as each of them turn 12.
I haven't touched their laundry ever since.
Occasionally they'll ask us to you move it from the watch of
the dryer for them. Sure, no problem.

(54:12):
But but we don't initiate any oftheir laundry and if they run
out of laundry, they got to figure it out right.
And that simple rule has a prevented me from ever having to
touch a sweaty teenage boy's anything, which is great, but
also like, it makes them feel good.
They can take care of themselves.
So like, you know, they're off going to university and moving

(54:33):
out and doing all these things and they feel functional.
Like I if if they're worried about, you know, what's going to
happen when they move out, a, they know they can come home for
their favorite meal, but they also have a sense of self
efficacy. They can take care of
themselves. So then when I do want to dote
on them or do something extra sweet for them, I can do it
without worrying about, you know, am I?

(54:53):
Well, you can't spoil a child with love, but you most
certainly can spoil a child by over functioning for them when
you do all their developmental tasks, right?
So there's tasks of development that young men need to learn and
moms need to let them learn theminstead of crowding out who
they're going to be as young menin the world, right?

(55:14):
Exactly. There's a lot of that.
That's tough to deal with because as much as you want to
be a progressive parent, I don'tknow what this is like for you.
Our guys are like 17 and up at this stage.
But that there's a place where when they first become
teenagers, like 1314, it's almost like you're so
progressive. And then all of a sudden they're
like dudes in a locker room again.

(55:35):
It's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.
That's the one I wanted, right? And you can kind of panic as a
mom. And there's some part of teenage
boy development that's unique tothem, and they'll come back to
you, but not if you squeeze the hell out of that process and try
to keep them young. You can't do that.
You have to let go so that they can go through that and then

(55:56):
come back to you, right? I think a lot of parents, really
young mothers in particular, really struggle with that.
Yeah, no, I think there's a couple of things that was made a
lot with me. I think one of them is how he
said functional. For me, I had to refrain some
stuff growing up, but because I think about cooking, I didn't
like cooking. I always a big cook.
She likes experiencing and like making the recipes and she knows

(56:19):
all of them. I never liked to cook.
And so the people would assume they didn't know how to cook
when I would say it. I don't like to cook it.
And then they would see me cook and they'd be like, oh, you know
how to. I never said I didn't like it.
I didn't know how to. I didn't like it.
They're two separate things. And that's when like I had to
start reforming for myself wherecooking is a survival skill.

(56:43):
It has nothing to do with gender.
And like you said, being able todo your laundry, being able to
clean, being able to pick up after yourself, being able to
cook, those are all skills that you need to function.
When I was a kids working mentalhealth and I were with people
experiencing homelessness, we would check do you know how to
do your laundry? Do you know how to clean an

(57:03):
apartment? Because those are the things
that will say whether or not youmight have issues with your
landlord. Yeah.
And the same like if you want your kids to be able to be
independent and have their own place, you do want to make sure
that they know how to do those kids those ask.
And maybe that's why I've been able to also reframe that
because I've had a word in the past where I had to make sure

(57:24):
that people knew how to do that and it was refrained for me that
way. But again, you want to make sure
like being a good parent is, I think for me means that one day
my kids are going to be able to go to life without me.
That's my whole. I have a seven and four year
old. So that's the point, right?

(57:46):
You do all all the things that you can and then sometimes that
like some locker boy talk that comes back.
There's a day that my my son came home.
We were talking and then he saidlike, but Mama, no, think it's
for girls and do it boys. And then I got mad.
I'm like if you and me, why did you learn girls?
We really know. Never said this at.

(58:07):
All woman, I think I'm getting into a fight with me because I
had bought him a pink shirt for like a awareness day and then
he'll wear it. But it's one of those things
where I went on and I got a bookand it was like, basically we
had to we went through the book and there was a lot that I
didn't realize that he had internal life from outside, like

(58:28):
boys are right? And and I was like did.
You cry all the time. And we never shame you for it.
Where is it that you, you got the idea that boys are not
supposed to cry? Yeah.
And again, to that it's hard to talk about it.
Cuz I remember cuz then I remember how there was one of
the ECS at his daycare when he was crying and she was starting

(58:48):
him like, don't cry, boys don't cry.
And I kind of browse. Because.
I like her and we had the relationship and I knew how much
she loved my son and I even likewhere I come in front of the
kids and her coworkers that whenI was like brain and sound like
don't say that to my kid. Don't say that.
Sometimes you have to correct people and there's there's a way

(59:10):
to do it in a loving way. I you're being very respectful
about it. But yeah, it that's tough.
Yeah. Yeah, someone saying that who's
in a position that should know better, that's like another
layer of. Yeah.
It's, I mean, you try to do as much as you can and then still
like they still will always come.
And I think just like it's like we grew up with our parents

(59:33):
culture and then we took also some Canadian cultures.
They'll grow up and take some from home and take some from the
world and they'll make it their own and create their own
identity. At some point, just like my
parents are going to have to go and be OK with whatever they
choose to be. Yeah.
You're, you're making me think of like a parallel, the way you
talk about this, where it's so something I say to parents all

(59:55):
the time who will come to me. And sometimes they'll be
frustrated because they'll feel like their kid is being very
ungrateful. And now they want to understand
because they, they had to be grateful growing up.
And I'm like, well, the reality is, is you've created a life for
your adolescent or teenager thatdoesn't have.

(01:00:16):
All the crap you had to grow up with, you're attentive and you
listen to them and you're open emotionally and you talk about
your feelings and you support everything they want to do.
And you let them sign up for a new sport even though they lose
interest and you lost your moneyon that deposit.
And you're, you're parenting in this emotionally responsive way.

(01:00:36):
So you actually, they don't knowwhat you grew up with.
So they can't be grateful for something.
They don't know what it's like to not have it.
And so it's not that you, you, you, your kids entitled and
annoying. And that's like, oh, great job,
mom and dad. I'm not saying that.
But what I'm saying is they're not going to be grateful because

(01:00:59):
they didn't live the life that you live.
Like they can't see what you've lived because you've done such
an outstanding job creating a different experience for them.
Now you want to teach relationalskills, right?
Like now you want to not be a human in the relationship with
your child. It's OK to let them know that
they said something that was kind of rude and it hurt your

(01:01:20):
feelings. And can you talk about that?
Now you can be in a relationship, not just think of
it as a job, that you're constantly making sure this
child never gets hurt. Our job isn't to make sure our
kids never get hurt. Our God is to let them know
they're built for this and it's OK and they can go through it.
And now we just want to make sure they have the skills to be
great in a relationship, whetherit's at work, at school, on a

(01:01:42):
team and sport and community andsiblings, you know, all kinds of
things like that, right? And so I feel like in the same
way, we can never know the sacrifice our parents and other
people made because we didn't live it and we went and saw it,
but we didn't live it first hand.
And So what we can do is remind them, but it's OK that I'm

(01:02:08):
sitting on the couch and not jumping out to clean when you
come home, because that's why you made the sacrifices you did
so I could. Relax and I hope you say it
because our parents had sacrifices.
They were in survival mode. And even though like we keep
telling ourselves that, like I have to do all these things to
repay their sacrifice, all theirwork, the truth is that they did

(01:02:33):
them so that we wouldn't have todo them.
I think there was a way how I wrote it yesterday.
They like if he had seen it somewhere.
You wrote to me. Resting is honoring their
sacrifice. Being able to live is their gift
to us. Yes, that that was the one I
remember. We're not going to live what we
watched them do growing up because that was the whole

(01:02:54):
point. Yeah.
And there's some guilt around itsometimes, like when you're
taking your rest, they're like you going on vacations and like
you're living the life that you wish your parents would have
lived, but they did it so that you could do it.
Yeah. It's OK to like learn from our
kids too, Like so to the older generation, like I got a kid

(01:03:15):
that's amazing at resting. This kid is very productive,
very routine, very scheduled, completely all on their own.
Like they have constructed this way of getting all the things
done that they need to get done that works for them.
And sometimes I'll come home andthey'll be sitting on the couch.
I'll be like, what are you doing?
And because, you know, there's stuff happening in the kitchen

(01:03:36):
that could be tended to, right? So as a girl, as a woman, I walk
in. I'm like, I got to do all these
things before I can do anything for myself.
Is immediately when my programming is.
And. He's like, I'm, I'm relaxing.
I'm like, oh, you're relaxing. So I immediately have this like
old like boomer response in my head that I heard growing up,
Like it's great that you get to relax, right?

(01:03:57):
And then and then so the new me,like the more evolved parent to
me is like, well, fuck, if you get to relax, why can't I relax?
I can relax too. And I'm actually like, that
child has taught me how to schedule in relaxation.
So the reason they're sitting and relaxing is because they
know that at some point they gotto get up and go do other things
that they've committed to. So they're actually just

(01:04:19):
scheduling and they're relaxing in the same way that they
schedule in going to work and taking care of themselves and
being active and making sure they have time to take a shower
and making sure they got time toeat.
Like it's quite impressive actually.
And I'm like, well, I guess thiskids taught me that and I have
myself on the back. We've created a home where
they've got the ability to figure that out for themselves

(01:04:41):
and honor it. I think that's pretty cool too.
We do have quite a few older people that listen to the
podcast. You know, you get like analytics
of the demographics of people and anyone listening or if you
get sent this conversation from your adult child who wants you
to listen to it. But it's OK to be like my kid,
my kids, all right? They figured out all this other
stuff and it that's pretty cool too.

(01:05:02):
That's pretty impressive. It's nice to tell people that.
Yeah, not for sure. And I think that for me, like
I've had to treat my brain wherewhenever I want to take a break,
I just saw myself like rest is productive.
I need to rest to keep functioning.
They're really like, it's betternow, but in the beginning it was
like, I sit down and I'm like, well, there's probably something

(01:05:26):
I should be doing. Especially because like for me,
for years it was work full time in school and then eventually
the kids came in the picture. It was just weird that for the
first time like OK, I finish work and that's it.
A lot of people need structure to rest, and sometimes people

(01:05:47):
don't do well without, like they'll start to spin.
And if you've got a fast brain, if you've got ADHD, you've got
to have the right balance of things that are good for you and
productive to keep you intriguedand moving forward.
Because if you have too much free time, you can get into
trouble. But then very quickly, if you
have too many things on your plate, then you can get
overwhelmed. And I always say everyone's got

(01:06:08):
a sweet spot between boredom andoverwhelm, and everyone uniquely
has to figure that out. Just specific to the context of
adults with ADHD and kids, too. It flows over time.
But I think this other layer, though, of not feeling like
you're allowed to rest, I think it's such an important thing
that you've brought in that I think everyone feels and
experiences in their bones. And so thank you for bringing

(01:06:30):
that to me, into this, to this audience because I think it's,
you know, really important. I really appreciate that.
Yeah, So, Jessica, thank you. I'm conscious of the time.
I know I've kept you over. I'm gonna link.
We'll tell everyone where they can find you.
Your website. My website israisesnourish.ca, I

(01:06:51):
also have an Instagram account. So it's on the what do you say?
Like in the eighth act. Yeah, but at races, period
flourish, period counseling. OK.
Those are the big ones where I'mposting at the moment.
I did just open a TikTok account.
I'm starting to post in there slowly.

(01:07:12):
Yeah, big ones. And I have a blog, A blog
weekly. And I'm hoping to do, I'm
planning to do a software seriesfor September.
Because you're going back to school.
And then what are your students a mom like us?
That means like lunch is again and rushing for the bus and put
it right and pick up. Yeah.

(01:07:33):
And something like that working might be a new quarter.
So September always makes a lot of changes and everybody's wife.
So I'll be doing a software series for the September when
the Epstein appearing because I also think that when we talk
about rest of self-care, it's been very commercialized, but we
think about like grab this smoothly, go to Pilates, do this

(01:07:53):
and that. But self-care is there's like
different spheres of self-care. You have emotional, you have
mental, you have spiritual and there's a lot of things they can
do that are basically free for you to take care of it all.
But you don't need the selling bag with the bubbles and the
salt, although those are amazing.
And I go into the squad, which is again, I enjoy it, but

(01:08:15):
there's other things that you can do that can easily feed into
your schedule to make sure that's what the day you're
taking rest and time for yourself.
They keep keep functioning. And that's something that like I
often say, especially it's like Latina moms from the elders in
the regions because they have the mentality of like, I have to
keep doing this for my family and I have to remind them like,
well, you need to fold your cup when I keep taking care of them.

(01:08:39):
Yeah, I'll make sure I link to your website and to your blog
and to where people can find youin the show notes for this
episode. Thank you so much for giving of
yourself, like sharing the stories that you've shared and
for reaching out to come onto the show and talk about these
things. I've thoroughly enjoyed this and
I've learned from you, so thank you very much.

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