February 6, 2025 • 51 mins
In this episode of The Circle, the Podcast for Queer Men's Embodiment, we take a deep dive into the strong man archetype—the societal expectation that men must always have the answers, never ask for help, and handle everything alone. These pressures often lead to overwhelm, isolation, and burnout, especially for queer men navigating mental, emotional, and spiritual growth.
Tim and Eric explore how men’s work and embodiment practices provide essential tools for managing stress, recognizing when we’re overwhelmed, and learning to ask for support. We discuss how the false ideal of relentless self-sufficiency can keep men from experiencing deeper connection, trust, and personal expansion. Through real-life stories, including Eric’s struggles with overachieving and avoidance behaviors, we unpack the power of awareness, pacing, and community in navigating the inevitable pressures of life.
If you’ve ever felt like you’re carrying too much alone or struggling to keep up with impossible expectations, this conversation is for you. Tune in to discover how queer men’s embodiment, men’s work, and conscious masculinity can help you move from burnout to balance—and why the strongest thing you can do is lean into support.
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Episode Transcript
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Timothy Bish (00:04):
Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's
conversation about men's work,men's embodiment practice, men's
spirituality, and men's personalgrowth with an emphasis on how
queer men can participate,benefit, serve, and lead in
these spaces. My name is TimothyBish.
Eric Bomyea (00:19):
My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to the
circle. In this episode, wecontinue our exploration of the
strong man archetype and thepressures it places on men to do
it all, have all the answers,and never ask for help. These
expectations can leave menfeeling isolated and
overwhelmed. We'll explore howmen can handle these feelings,
create support systems, and moveaway from harmful stereotypes
(00:41):
towards a more balanced andauthentic way of being.
Tim, are you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (00:45):
I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea (00:46):
Let's go. So a couple episodes ago, we talked
about authentic power and theconcept of the strong man came
up. Tim, can you give us arefresher on the strong man
archetype and share yourperspective on why it creates so
much pressure for men?
Timothy Bish (00:59):
I believe the strong man archetype is the
epitome of the challenge thatmen are having today. This
Marlboro man, John Wayne kind ofperson who is always in charge,
strong, has the answers, doesn'treally need help, lone wolf. So
(01:23):
many of these things, and welook at it. And what happens in
these movies, you know, JamesBond or whatever, you're like,
oh, you have money, you lookcool, you get laid by incredible
people. I want to be that.
And what it doesn't do is itdoesn't, represent the authentic
(01:44):
human experience. So I thinkwhat happens is that we see this
idea and we try for it, and westruggle, but then we are prone
to admiring or idealizing aperson who seems to have it even
(02:05):
though, no one does because it'snot real. Every person has
needed help, has, needed toreflect. They've needed to
pause. They've needed to wrestlewith, a failure whether it was
(02:26):
like big or small.
And, you know, we've talkedabout it so many times. Every
Olympic athlete that we've everrevered as a gold medalist, they
needed a coach. They neededsomeone. They've all had them. I
don't think I know any I can'tthey've changed them maybe, but
I don't know anyone who didn'thave one.
(02:48):
Giving them feedback from theoutside in. Right? And in my
dance career, same idea. Like, Ineeded people who had been there
and who had done it to tell methings I couldn't quite see
because I was so busy doingother things. That ability to
rely on people and to know thatwe need that support is the
(03:11):
opposite of this idea that Ineed nothing.
So when we think about thestrong man archetype, we think
about, I don't need that coach.I don't need that help. I don't
need that lesson. I don't needthat time. But that isn't the
human experience.
And so when we think about men'swork and what we're doing, we're
(03:34):
thinking about how do I allowmyself the thing I need to be
that person? Because there is aJohn Wayne. There is a Michael
Phelps. They're like thesepeople exist, but, like, what
did it take to actually getthere? What did they actually
(03:54):
need?
They needed this humility to notalways be the best. They needed
the humility, and we've all seenthis, to say I need to get, I
need to put my, I'm the best inmy school. I'm the best in my
region maybe. And now I need tofind the pool where there are
people who are as good or betterthan me or I'm never going to
(04:17):
get better. The humility, thevulnerability, the courage, the
bravery, that is the, the magicthat takes those people from the
best in your and then fill itin.
In your in your league, in yourschool, in your district, in
your, you know, in your stateand takes them to, like, oh,
you're the best in the world andhonoring that. I don't know if I
(04:42):
answered your question.
Eric Bomyea (04:43):
Well, so I want to unpack a couple of things here.
1 I just had an insight thatlike so going from like high
school and up right? Like solike I was an overachiever
achiever in high school where Iwas like, I need to be, I wasn't
the best in the class, but I waslike striving my way towards the
top. And I really like wasputting myself forward
intellectually. And I thoughtlike, oh, I'm gonna apply to a
(05:05):
great school, get in and like,you don't do that.
I'm gonna go up to the biggerpool. When I got to the bigger
pool, I realized, oh, wow. Iused to be the big fish in the
little pond. Now I'm a verylittle fish in a very big pond.
And there are some very big fishin this pond.
And it actually didn't inspireme. It actually did the
opposite. My after my 1stsemester, I crumbled. And, like,
(05:25):
I said, well, guess I'm justgonna give up then. Right?
Because, like, I was surroundedby all these, like, very
ambitious high achieving peopleand I was like well I can never
be that. And so I actually likelike got to a point where I was
like almost started flunkingbecause I just like started to
like give up. And so part ofpart of it is this this
(05:46):
archetype, this this I can dothings on my own and I'm not
gonna ask for help. In thatmoment, I needed to ask for
help. Mhmm.
And I didn't have the humilityto do it.
Timothy Bish (05:56):
But is that what stopped you? I'm gonna I'm gonna
jump in. Is that what stoppedyou? Because I wonder, like, the
the motivating factor, was itwere you motivated by being the
best or were you motivated bypursuing the thing you wanted to
pursue?
Eric Bomyea (06:11):
I'm not quite sure in this moment.
Timothy Bish (06:13):
Because I think if you're motivated, if one is
motivated by being the best Ijust wanna be the best. And it
felt good to be the best, and Iwas the best in high school. So
I'm gonna try to be the besthere. And so I go to be the
best, but then there are peoplewho are better than me and I
can't be the best. I'm gonnafall away.
Well, like, my example is like adancer. I was good, but I wasn't
(06:35):
the best. But I loved it so muchthat I was continually inspired
to to try to continue to be mybest and maybe the best. At some
point, I I think I hopefully gotto the point of, like, I'm not
interested in the best, butbeing my best. And to be clear,
(06:55):
I was never the best dancer.
I was a good dancer, and, Ithink there was a moment when I
was my best dancer. But I thinkthat's a really important
distinction. So, it is alluringto feel like, oh, I'm really
good at this. So maybe this iswhat I should do. I think men's
(07:18):
work helps us to understand,well, is that really what you
you should do?
Or like, what is your heart andsoul wanting you to do? And if
you're pursuing what it is youwant to do, purpose, mission,
intention, then you'll likelystick with it because you're
like, well, I can't imagine mylife without it. I was always a
(07:38):
dancer until I wasn't. Yeah. Ifthat makes sense.
Eric Bomyea (07:42):
Yeah. I think, like, I don't know. I mean, I
was 17, 18 years old. Right?Like, I don't know that I had a
clear idea of my purpose.
I was kind of just, like, goingalong with it. Like, it was
like, I think this is the rightnext move. Right? And I remember
very strong feelings of beingoverwhelmed in college of like,
oh my gosh. Like, I have takenon too much.
(08:04):
I think at one point, I, like,thought it was a great idea to
try to take 21 credits. And,wait.
Timothy Bish (08:09):
Just to for clarity, for me and for our
listeners, what is a typical 12or 16?
Eric Bomyea (08:15):
12 to 15, I think.
Timothy Bish (08:17):
Is a lot.
Eric Bomyea (08:17):
I think that's like
Timothy Bish (08:18):
Well, 15 to 16 is 4 full full credit classes in
the semester. Yes.
Eric Bomyea (08:24):
It's a lot.
Timothy Bish (08:25):
Yes. With a lot of homework and reading and yeah.
Eric Bomyea (08:27):
Okay. Yeah. And so, like, I was trying to do like a
double major, double minor,like, all these things. I would
like have this idea of like thislike very specific degree
program that I wanted to likecreate for myself And I was just
like I, you know, I had thecurse of more before I even
realized it. Right?
Like, I have always been that,like, just pile it on. And I
(08:48):
remember distinctly, like, thesefeelings of overwhelm of, like,
not being good enough, not beingable to, like, do it on my own.
Like, I would even go to officehours and, like, you know, I was
so ashamed to go to office hoursto, like, ask for help. You
know, I was trying, but, like, Ireally, like, I don't think I
had the humility then to reallytruly say, like, I can't do this
on my own and I need help andsupport. Yeah.
(09:10):
So I think, like, I was veryearly on, like, trying to model
these strong man archetypal andstereotypes of, like, I can do
this on my own. And if I can'tdo it on my own, then I'm not
good enough. I'm a failure. Andso I mean, I struggle with that
even today, but like back thendefinitely it was like very
clear that I had these thesechallenges.
Timothy Bish (09:35):
You know, the strong man archetype is a tricky
one because it doesn't allow forreally any part of our human
experience. So imagine you andI, I'm like, let's go for a jog.
Right? And even if we were likeI have friends who were like
(09:55):
very, practiced runners who liketo do half marathons and
marathons, you know, whatever.The idea that you would like
maybe like slow down or take abreak during your jog is, like,
not unheard of.
But when we think about, like,the representation of this
archetype, like, when when doyou remember Superman having,
(10:19):
like, taking a break? And Idon't. I I remember him, like,
being chained with kryptoniteand then, like, starting to
crumble. But there was never amoment where, like, I just flew,
like, around the earth, like, 25times really fast in order to,
like, reverse time. Right?
That scene I'm trying toremember now, like, where he we
(10:40):
never, we never watched himcatch his breath.
Eric Bomyea (10:43):
Right.
Timothy Bish (10:44):
So, but we're all trying to be that. And so when I
stop and catch my breath, am I afailure? And I think the
question is legitimate because,well, if I believe these images
where I'm never supposed to haveto do that, then probably. But
we're all human. And you'relike, of course, we watch again,
(11:09):
I'm gonna go back to I I wannatalk about the Olympics
Eric Bomyea (11:12):
Let's go.
Timothy Bish (11:12):
Just all the time. Like, can we change the name of
this podcast? I you watchOlympians at the end of whatever
they've done, and they collapsebecause they're exhausted. And
there's something so beautifulabout that. We and that's, I
think, part of the magic of theOlympics.
Like, oh, you just like crosscountry skiers, like falling
(11:34):
down at the end of their racesbecause they've just used every
ounce of what they've got. Howunbelievable. And yet we can't
somehow bring that into ourdaily life to be like, oh, if I
do something really big andreally, you know, I get to have
a moment where I collapse andrecover and, you know, and yes,
(11:57):
the difference would be there'slike media and people that like
flags and, you know, whatever.But like, can we create that for
ourselves when you finish aproject that you've been working
on for 2 weeks or a month orwhatever, and you're and you,
you know, and, like, it ends upgoing great. Like, can you give
yourself that?
We should all learn how to giveourselves that.
Eric Bomyea (12:17):
To Volley, you I just heard you say, like, finish
the race, finish the project.
Timothy Bish (12:21):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (12:22):
For me, like, I've gotta learn to take breaks
during the race, during theproject. Because what ends up
happening is I burn myself outbecause I'm I'm I'm sprinting to
the finish line. I'm trying toget to the finish line. So,
like, when I run, I'm asprinter, right? Like I'm a 6 6
and a half minute mile sprinter.
I want to get it done. I want togo fast. I want to go hard and
(12:46):
like I don't take breaks duringthat. I push myself to the point
of like when I finish my thing.I'm like I'm I fall on the
ground But what ends uphappening is I'm now sustaining
a knee injury that I've beennursing for several months now
Yeah.
That, like, comes and goes comesand goes. I think that it's
getting better and then all of asudden I do something and I
tweak it. Right? And it'sbecause I tried to push myself
(13:07):
too hard and I don't take thebreaks that I need to avoid that
moment of collapse at the end.
Timothy Bish (13:13):
I love what you're saying because we've seen it in
the Olympics a 100 times, a 1000times where there's a person who
was like gung ho and they areleading the whole time. But the
person who will ultimately endup winning that gold medal is
the one who understands thatpacing, that that like, oh, this
(13:34):
is not a bullet being fired outof a gun. This is an ebb and
flow. And can you imagine themental discipline it takes to be
the eventual gold medalist andsee that person darting in front
of you and they are 200 metersin front of you. Right?
And you have to remind yourself,I've trained. I've trained. I
(13:56):
know. I know how this goes. Iknow what I can do, and I cannot
try to chase that person rightnow.
And then we've seen it, and it'sa little bit heartbreaking for
the person who is doing it, butthey will often get eclipsed.
And it was and I think I sawthis on Instagram, like, when
(14:16):
we, something about, like,leaving our goals, we follow our
systems and, like, that system,that practice. Well, I've
practiced this. I know what Ihave to do to get to this place.
And so that's like the skill ofmen's work.
Can I learn my pacing? Can Ilearn can I understand the arc
(14:40):
of the experience? Can Iunderstand to the best of my
ability what it is I'm trying tocreate and what is reasonable in
the creation of that thing,which will inevitably mean
spikes of hard work, spikes ofrest and reflection, spikes of
editing, you know, whatever thething is? So I love that because
(15:01):
yes, I think we need thatability to, it's like active
recovery. Can I rest withoutstopping?
Eric Bomyea (15:14):
Yeah. I also have been starting to think now like
the tortoise and the hare aswell. Right? Boom. Like, the the
hare was a sprinter, but thehare would get distracted,
right, or do certain things.
I think there was some, like,moments where they're, like, off
like, you know, being a braggerto showboat. Maybe they're
they're like
Timothy Bish (15:32):
They were like showing off.
Eric Bomyea (15:33):
Right? Maybe they're like, you know, taking a
full rest to pause becausethey're like, oh, that that
tortoise, he's so far behindwith the tortoise. It's like,
no. I'm just gonna keep at mypace, my own steady pace where
I'm not burning myself
Timothy Bish (15:44):
out,
Eric Bomyea (15:45):
but I'm consistently moving forward.
Right? And the hair was the thespikes. Right? Spike fast, come
down.
Spike fast, come down. Spikefast, come down. Spike fast,
come down. And then lost trackof time and ultimately got
eclipsed by the the tortoise.And so, I think there's a couple
things here.
And I think it might be it mightbe based off of, like, a little
(16:06):
bit of, like, just personalityand personal preference. Right?
Like, you know, for me, mychallenge is to, you know, go
hard, go fast but give myselfrest and breaks when I need.
There's also an opportunity thatinstead of going so big so fast,
(16:26):
I could also slow down my paceand stretch out the time frame.
Right?
So both of those are options forme and figuring out which one is
best for me maybe situationalmight depend on the project or
the person or whatever it is,you know, that is, you know,
causing me to, like, go at thatvelocity. Right? Just, you know,
you have to, like, consider. AndI think that it create it
(16:46):
requires an awareness of what itis that I'm working towards and
how much capacity energy is inmy reserves.
Timothy Bish (16:53):
How much capacity and energy is in my reserves or
do I have, I think is a hugepart of what we're talking about
in overwhelm because I think sofrequently we will have this
idea of, well, my capacityshould be close to unlimited. I
should be Superman all the time.Right? I can, you know and I
(17:15):
think the conscious man is theman who understands, oh, I have
an ebbing and flowing capacitydepending on a number of
factors. Did I sleep?
Did I eat? Did I have a fightwith my partner? Like, do I have
children? You know, any numberof things. And then with that
understanding of, like, well,where am I on my on my scale?
(17:37):
Am I at a 100%? Which, I mean,when was the last time you were
at a 100%. I mean, right? But,like, or am I at 20%. And then
with that, you can start to makereally empowered decisions about
if I'm at 20% and I still havea, b, and c to do, then I
(17:59):
probably can't add d.
And I shouldn't be surprisedwhen in the completion or the
doing of c, I'm feeling avariety of things. Discontented,
exhausted, edgy, you know. Theawareness of those things can
help you mitigate them so theydon't come out sideways so you
(18:22):
don't end up screaming at yourkids. I remember as a kid, like,
getting screamed at and beinglike, I don't even like, I don't
know. And you look back laterand you're like, oh, my my
guardian in this moment was attheir wit's end, but without
tools.
So they were just kind offlaring, you know? And imagine
(18:44):
if you're like, hey, everybody.Come into the car. Let's all be
a little quiet because, youknow, give some context and what
that might have done. Yeah.
The awareness of your capacityis a huge thing in men's work
and an overwhelm.
Eric Bomyea (19:02):
Yeah. Absolutely. And, like, when I heard you
talking about, like, you know,potentially taking on that that
4th item, that d. Right? Like,I'm I'm that person that I'm
like,
Timothy Bish (19:16):
I'm that person. Welcome to the Circle.
Eric Bomyea (19:17):
Welcome to the Circle. I'm that person where
Wait up. Sorry. I'm in the Tell
Timothy Bish (19:23):
us more about taking on the
Eric Bomyea (19:24):
I'm gonna take on that d.
Timothy Bish (19:26):
Yeah. Take on that d. And when you take on the d
Eric Bomyea (19:28):
What ends up happening? What
Timothy Bish (19:29):
do you do?
Eric Bomyea (19:30):
I get overwhelmed.
Timothy Bish (19:31):
Oh, it's like this d. It's overwhelming me. I get
it. I get it. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (19:38):
So A
Timothy Bish (19:38):
lot of people could relate. Is this where we,
like, put in an advertisement?Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (19:51):
Yeah. So, like, I get to that point of like taking
on more more more more more andmy overwhelm manifests itself
and like the inability toactually now do anything. I get
to a point of like I hit a wallwith everything. I get so easily
distracted. My energy isdepleted and I can't figure out
(20:13):
where to focus.
I lose focus when I getoverwhelmed with too many
things, too many options, or toomany things in the air at any
given time. Yeah. And it hasbecome part of my practice now
to, like, can I, like, groundmyself if in a situation I have
no choice but to like continueon with all the things that I've
(20:34):
taken on? An example being I wasjust visiting my mother. I was
helping her out.
She just gotten out of thehospital and I had like 20
things in my brain juggling oflike things that I needed to get
done, things that I needed tohelp her out with, like running
to the pharmacy, going groceryshopping, meal prepping, like
all these things while alsotrying to like be present for my
(20:55):
mother, right? And I I think ina I think in an effort to
protect myself emotionally from,like, what I was being there to
do, I was taking on more tasks,more micro responsibilities like
meal prep. Mhmm. Right? Shedidn't ask for it.
I just was doing it because Ithink I was trying to distract
myself. And so I was just pilingmore on my plate. And I remember
(21:18):
coming back from the grocerystore and just like having these
bags of groceries being in hervery small kitchen for the first
time and like not really knowingthe organizational system like
all these things and like I gotto a place of like complete
overwhelm where I all of asudden my brain was trying to go
in 50 different directions and Icouldn't focus on anything.
Timothy Bish (21:36):
You talked about this in the circle, didn't you?
Eric Bomyea (21:38):
And typically. Right? What yeah. And typically
what used to happen in momentslike that is I would reach for
alcohol.
Timothy Bish (21:45):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (21:45):
Or I would go smoke a cigarette or something that I
would use to, like, numb myselfto calm myself down. And instead
of doing that, and I was temptedbecause my mom had vodka in the
fridge. And I was like, I wassuper tempted to grab that
bottle. And some people arelike, oh, you probably would
have just had a drink. I waslike, no.
No. No. I would have had thebottle.
Timothy Bish (22:04):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (22:04):
Right? That bottle would have been go go go go
down. And so I, like, in thatmoment, actually use some of our
practices from circle and, like,just, like, felt my feet on the
ground, grounded myself, didquick breath practice
Timothy Bish (22:16):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (22:17):
And, like, recentered. I didn't, like stop
doing the things that I hadsigned up to do, but I was able
to then do them 1 at a time alittle bit more mindfully.
Timothy Bish (22:26):
What a beautiful example. I wanna talk a little
bit about because you and I havevery different experiences of
how we deal with overwhelm.
Eric Bomyea (22:37):
How do you experience that?
Timothy Bish (22:38):
Would you agree would you agree with that?
Eric Bomyea (22:39):
Well, tell me how you're experiencing
Timothy Bish (22:40):
it. I'm going to. Well, would you agree with it
before I tell you? Okay. Yeah.
We've talked about this. I amthe person who when I feel
overwhelmed, when I feelanxious, whatever, I completely
lose my appetite. I stop eating.I couldn't eat if I wanted to or
I can only eat sporadically.And, I have to be mindful about,
(23:06):
like, my energy because I alsodo a ton of fitness.
So, like, am I getting enough,you know, and all that. And
there are other people who havethe opposite experience. And is
it fair to say based on whatyou've told me that like your
experience is different thanmine?
Eric Bomyea (23:21):
Yeah. I mean, it it it depends like so in some
moments I am a binger. I'm aperson that like if I'm starting
to feel overwhelmed I go intolike manic panic. And like the
only thing that will like helpcalm me down is a binge. And
that used to be alcohol.
Sometimes now it's candy or icecream. You know, where I like I
(23:42):
can't focus. If I can't focus onanything, there is one thing
that I can focus on and that'sadvice.
Timothy Bish (23:47):
Like but like food?
Eric Bomyea (23:49):
Right now, yes. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah. So I bring it up because I have to
imagine that the experience ofoverwhelm, which for me has
always been, a physiologicalone. So yes, of course, when
anyone's overwhelmed, I have 5or 6 things to do. I don't have
enough time to do them.
There's a mental component toit. But for me, it's always then
(24:12):
started in my body and I'm likeI start to feel a tightening, a
heat, my elevated heart rate,you know, sweating, whatever the
things are. And they canmanifest in very different ways.
And I'm bringing it up because,if I'm trying to figure out if
someone in my life isoverwhelmed, I have to
(24:33):
understand, well, how did theyexperience overwhelm? Because
they may or may not experienceit like I do.
And you know, I can't tell youhow many times people have said,
you know, why aren't you eating?And it's like, well, I I just
like, I I I can't right now. Andthen and then in that moment
(24:55):
you're like, well, am I supposedto tell you, oh, I'm, I feel
totally alone in this world andno one understands me and I
don't belong here. Like or orwhat, you know, like, what am I
supposed to say? And I think thealternative would be and I'd be
interested to hear, like, ifyou're that other person, why
are you eating so much?
Like, what's the right answer?You know?
Eric Bomyea (25:17):
Because like I said, like, if my brain isn't
able to focus on anything, ifI've got 5 things that I'm
trying to do at any given point,my brain has gotten to a point
of overwhelm.
Timothy Bish (25:27):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (25:27):
I have too many things to do. So my body says,
well, there's one thing you canfocus on. And now I'm gonna
point you and, like, laser pointyou, like, super focused. You
can't do anything else but this.And that thing for me for a long
time was vice.
Right? Whether that was drugsand alcohol or, like, binge
(25:49):
eating. And so my question toyou is, so, like, how does that
manifest? If you've got 5 thingsin front of you, you're telling
me that like it you you'refeeling it physiologically but
is that like how mentally areyou processing it as well?
Timothy Bish (26:03):
How am I mentally processing?
Eric Bomyea (26:07):
So again, my my example is that like I've got 5
things. Yeah. My brain's tellingme you can't focus on any of
these. Mhmm. So instead you'regonna focus on this one thing.
Oh, right. This one thing isadvice.
Timothy Bish (26:16):
Oh, right. So yeah. I I it's a different
version for me. It's a differentversion of hyperfocus. But for
me it's a hyper focus on whatisn't working in a way that's,
that kind of shuts me down.
So it doesn't take me to, well,eat that donut and you'll feel
(26:39):
better. Usually it takes me to,I think for me it's taken me to
this place of, well, you can'tchange it. So what can you do?
And I and so this is when welike, so we come back to men's
work and I think this is why somany spiritual and personal
(27:02):
growth systems, talk about thevalue of a daily practice. So
now you and I, I don't know ifwe've talked about it on the
podcast yet or not, we'vestarted the morning pages,
right?
We do 3 pages of stream ofconsciousness writing. Then I
(27:22):
write out my 10 affirmations or10 things I'm grateful for, 3
people I want to send love andcompassion to. I do it like
another thing. I know you haveother, you know, we do this
stuff. I also have like myphysical practice and, and I
rely on those things so thatwhen I am confronted with the
(27:42):
intensity of what could beoverwhelm, I have greater
capacity.
So I think the idea being thatif I wake up and I'm full, I'm a
cup and I'm full, then if thatday wants to pour any more into
my cup, I'm overflowing. And Ithink spiritual practice,
(28:04):
personal growth practice does 2things. It, a, empties some of
the overwhelm you might alreadybe holding and it, b, expands
your capacity It makes your cupbigger. You there's a spiritual
teaching about like expandingyour vessel. It's very kabbalah,
kabbalah, kabbalah.
(28:25):
It's however you pronounce it,Expanding your vessel. How like,
how how much more can youexpand? So how much light can
you hold? Right? And I thinkthat's what our our daily
practice does for us so that,okay, well, I have greater
capacity.
(28:45):
It is like a preemptive orpreventative measure to
overwhelm. Because the timesthat I've been overwhelmed, and
I'd love to hear your thoughtson this, like I've almost never
been able to plan them. I mean,obviously, there are some days
where you're like, oh.
Eric Bomyea (29:02):
I could see it coming from a mile away.
Timothy Bish (29:04):
Well, because you're like you're like, today,
I have, like, 8 things I need todo because I'm in a program.
Right? I'm like I'm I'm likefinishing a thing or there's
like this project and, like,you've had, like, the warnings.
But sometimes you're like, Iwoke up to do, like, my regular
thing and then a 100 thingshappened that I did not expect.
That I think is the overwhelmthat messes with people because
(29:27):
you're like, oh, I went to thegas station thinking I was gonna
get a soda and and gas.
And instead I got a mouthfulfrom some person who I bumped
into accidentally when they weregetting their coffee. What do
you do with that? And then youadd that on to like, then I got
to the I got to work and mycolleague was upset because I
had left. I'm not I mean, I'm atyou know, it's just like and
(29:49):
it's sort of like buying lunch,you've had 4 things and you're
like, I don't know what to do.And then you're like, now I'm
eating the donut or I'm noteating the donut.
Eric Bomyea (29:58):
And if we think about the cup analogy of the
vessel, right? So I think thereare ways in which we can, like,
expand our vessel. We talk aboutour our daily practices. Those
are ways that expand ourcapacity to hold. Then there is,
(30:18):
like releasing some of the thevolume inside of our container,
our vessel.
Right? Doing that throughreleasing of things whether that
is through, you know, journalingor just like some sort of
surrender. Right? And you'rejust like, okay, like, I'm
Timothy Bish (30:36):
just moving, moving, screaming. Yeah.
Breathing.
Eric Bomyea (30:39):
Getting it out.
Timothy Bish (30:39):
Like expressing. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (30:41):
A, then I think too, like, when there are those
unexpected things that could endup filling your vessel to the
point of overflow. There's alsoacceptance. Acceptance has a
secret weapon that can, be afilter or some sort of blockage
to how much then comes in toyour container. Right? Like,
(31:03):
maybe it's like a nozzle.
Right? Acceptance could be likea nozzle like if it's a if if
that, running into that personat the gas station is this big
like drop that's about to comein or this stream that's about
to come into your vessel. Like,acceptance can kind of be a
nozzle that kind of like reduceshow much comes in. Mhmm. Right?
Be like, I'm just accepting,like, I didn't expect this to
(31:24):
happen, but I accept that ithappened and we're moving on.
Timothy Bish (31:27):
Well, how many times in your life have you had
the experience? I've done this.Where you walk into a situation
with tools and you tell someonefeeling really overwhelmed. I
mean, you and I actually hadthis earlier today, right? We
were going to meet and then abunch of stuff happened and now
I'm like, now I feel reallyoverwhelmed.
(31:49):
I had two choices. I couldeither acknowledge what I was
feeling and then we could, like,talk about it, which we did.
Thank you, by the way. You'rewelcome. Or I could have
pretended and then tried to gothrough a series of interactions
and and behaviors and whatever,kind of carrying this weight and
(32:12):
not really being there fully foreither of us.
And so the practice has, like,led me to telling you, but it
required me to be able to be alittle embarrassed. I'm like,
oh, I just these three thingshappened and now I feel
overwhelmed and I had to likesit with, is there going to be a
(32:36):
judgment about that? Now luckilyI'm talking to you and there
wasn't one and thank you forthat. But, like, that's why we
do this work because the truthis most of us would have been
overwhelmed. Yeah.
And, like, the three thingscould be different. Right? Like,
depending on who you are andwhere you are. So maybe it has
something to do with things thataren't in my sphere at all. But
(32:57):
if they matter to you, which isreally the criteria, like it
doesn't matter if it's we'retalking about men's work or
we're talking about whateverminutiae of your job?
You're an engineer. You're amechanic. You're a pilot.
Whatever you are. You know?
You've got things that youprobably care about and then if
(33:18):
they don't go well, you probablyhave a feeling about that. Can
we create the space where we canbe like, well, I don't know your
pilot stress, but I can relateto stress. Mhmm. So can we join
on that? And the I think theanswer is yes if we have enough
awareness.
Right?
Eric Bomyea (33:32):
And you said it too. It's like it's situational
too. It's daily that it it justdepends on how like it's the
perfect storm of things. Right?Like someday you may not have
slept well.
And so something that wouldn'thave bothered you on another day
can all of a sudden fill yourvessel up to overflow super
quickly. Yeah. Right? Becauseyou you just just because?
Timothy Bish (33:54):
I I didn't I didn't know.
Eric Bomyea (33:55):
Right? There's no valueless. There's no judgment
to the things that can fill youup, but the awareness that you
are getting filled up to thatbrink of pour over is important.
Timothy Bish (34:05):
And some days are bubbles intact and some days it
isn't. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (34:08):
And I think today what you demonstrated too by
being able to like express youroverwhelm is the power of
sharing it with somebody and thepower of community as a tool.
You know, we have a lot of toolsthat we can work on our
individualistically of thingsthat we can do in the moment or
things that we can do for selfcare, things that we can do to
(34:28):
expand our our own containersbut there is that that secret
weapon that a lot of men, myselfincluded, are really, against
and that is asking for help fromothers.
Timothy Bish (34:42):
But it required trust and so this is if people
are listening now, what is thevalue of men's work or one of
the values of men's work is thecreation of community with men
you trust so that you can havethat experience. If I didn't
trust you, I never would havetold you. I would have, I would
(35:03):
have immediately gone back intomy old ways of being, in service
to my own survival and therewould have been, you know, a
ripple effect. Maybe I wouldhave talked later to people in
my life differently and, youknow, whatever it might have
been. So can we can we start tocreate relationships of trust so
(35:27):
that I can bring overwhelm toyou because I've seen you be
willing to bring overwhelm tome?
This is like when we're in men'swork and in men's retreats, and
you're like, I can I canobserve, I can see, I can hear,
I can witness another man havinghis experience? It not only will
(35:49):
it inspire, it gives permission.I mean, like, oh, I'm not so
alone and I felt that too. Sonow maybe I can show you that.
And then when we all show eachother, you're like, okay.
Well, now it can exist as partof our experience that includes
the moments when we feel reallyproficient and sexy and fun and,
like, lighthearted and relaxedand, you know, all that other
(36:12):
stuff that we wanna be. You'relike, well, sometimes those
people are stressed or tired oroverwhelmed or, you know,
lonely. And you're like, oh,okay.
Eric Bomyea (36:26):
I'm not so alone in this. And, like, when Yeah. I
recognize that I'm not so alonein my struggles, I can create
powerful connections with peoplethat allow me like, it builds
that trust. Right? And now Ihave a powerful connection with
somebody that allows me anoutlet to transform what used to
be a weakness asking for helpinto something that creates a
(36:49):
powerful connection and apowerful bond in a mutual
reciprocated way.
That's like, you know, it'shelpful to me and it could be
helpful for the other person aswell because now they're also
realizing they're not alone.They're like, oh, I see you.
Yeah. Right? You see me.
Okay. Now I can also So
Timothy Bish (37:05):
I wanna go back to something I said earlier, which
was that for me, overwhelm ismainly like a a physical
physiological, sensationalexperience. Because when we talk
about the value of men's work,part of that is the the real
practice of asking ourselves andlooking into what is it I'm
(37:28):
feeling in any given moment.Because I believe that a lot of
people who do not have thatpractice experience overwhelm
and they're it's kindadisconnected. So it's almost as
if you're sort of like I'm in abubble of, storm clouds or or
whatever the image might be, butI but I'm like but I I can I can
(37:52):
feel it sort of happening aroundme, but I'm not connected to it?
And so I don't really know whatto do with it.
And then I try tointellectualize it, which isn't
really gonna help. And so thethe practices of men's work,
breath, movement, you know,posture, sound, visualization,
attention, etcetera, etcetera,help us so that, oh, now I can
(38:15):
start to feel in my own body.Oh, I feel that tension. And I
don't I don't want, you know,because everyone feels it
differently. I I often get it inmy in my in my gut and I
personally get it in my gut andin my midline, sometimes in my
throat, and then heat in myface.
But when I feel these things,I'm like, oh, something's up.
(38:36):
And it it becomes like a, likea, a flag, like a, a signal.
Tim, start to pay attentionbecause you are moving in this
direction. And what anunbelievably valuable tool that
is because it gives me a headsup of like, oh, instead of
finding myself in the depth ofoverwhelm, I can see myself
(38:59):
heading there and I can start totake some action so that I don't
get in over my head.
Eric Bomyea (39:08):
I think that the awareness of it, right, is like
the the core root of of men'swork and, like, building on that
daily, right, through all sortsof different practices, formal
and informal, just like startingto really listen to ourselves
and understanding what'sarising. What are the warning
(39:29):
signs so that we don't get tothat point of my my cup is now
overflowing and like I'm now ina full reactionary state.
Timothy Bish (39:38):
And Yeah. So I, you know, I've had the
experience as a facilitator ofasking men, like, how they're
feeling, and sometimes it is sofar away that they don't know
what to do. And so I've heardpeople be like, I feel fine.
Like, I'm like, well, how doesyour body feel? I feel fine.
(40:00):
So if you are a person listeningright now and you like that
experience is far away from you,then I would recommend this
gentle practice, which would bewhen you're able, definitely not
if you're driving, when you areable, sit down, stand if it's
comfortable, lay down, but startto scan through your body and
(40:26):
notice how you're feeling. And Iwould say begin by doing a
gentle scan in whatever way youwould. But when you are complete
with that scan, start to askyourself about how you feel in
places you don't often thinkabout. So if you're listening
now, I imagine you're not askingyourself how you feel behind
(40:50):
your ears or on the back of yourneck, unless your neck hurts.
You're probably not askingyourself, like, what the, what
the back, like the tips of myelbows feel like or my Achilles
tendons or the arch of my footthat isn't touching the ground.
And if you start to draw yourawareness, and it won't happen
(41:13):
immediately, but if you start todraw your awareness there,
you'll notice that actuallythere is sensation everywhere.
So you and I are in these chairsright now. Like, if I asked you
to, like, think about the creasebetween your arms and your back
and the back of your shoulderand feel what's happening there
(41:34):
through practice, it may be hardto find the right word, but do
you feel something there? Okay.Yeah.
Yeah. And if I asked you to feellike what's happening, in the
back of your calf muscle rightnow, do you feel something
there?
Eric Bomyea (41:50):
I do.
Timothy Bish (41:51):
Yeah. So when we start to develop that skill,
then typically with things likeoverwhelm, we're gonna feel it
in our core. We're gonna feel itin our heart. We're gonna feel
it in our gut. We're gonna feelit in our pelvis sometimes.
Like, we're gonna feel it in ourjaw or in our shoulders. Like
these places where we typicallyfeel tension. So it can be
(42:13):
different for everyone. Butyou're like, oh, I'm starting to
clench my jaw again and I have atendency of TMJ. Well, that that
might not just be like aphysiological issue that you
need to talk to your doctorabout.
It might be a sign that you'refeeling overwhelmed. So A, can
you relax your jaw? And then B,can you shine your light of
awareness on, well, what'scausing me to tighten my jaw or
(42:36):
lift my shoulders or, you know,on and on and on.
Eric Bomyea (42:41):
So as you were asking me to detect what I was
feeling, I was able toexperience or feel the
experience of, like, my clothes,like, on my body.
Timothy Bish (42:50):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (42:50):
Right? So I can feel my jeans on the back of my
calves right now. Right? And I'mable to do that because I'm
developing, not a great, butdeveloping a vocabulary of
sensation. Mhmm.
These are things that I was nottaught. I was not taught a
vocabulary of, bodily sensationsthat made it easy or accessible
(43:16):
for me to communicate even tomyself. Right? Like, let alone
to somebody else. What it is I'mfeeling in my body?
And so what I've had to do isactually study lists of words
and make flashcards and writeout lines so that I can start to
say, oh, tingling is asensation. I can start to now
(43:36):
use tingling in a sentence.Right? As I describe my body.
But before the last coupleyears, these words were not
readily accessible to me becauseI wasn't taught this vocabulary,
and many of us are not.
And now add emotions in there.My rudimentary understanding of
emotions is, like, happy, sad,angry. Right? Like, that was
(43:58):
Yeah. That was the the extentof, like, how I was able to
describe emotions.
And so now I'm, like, studyingemotions and I'm saying, okay,
like, I can start to expand outand, like, understand there are,
several different ways that Ican explain the the the emotion
that's going on in my body.Right? So that's also
encouragement that I would giveto folks is, like, if these
(44:20):
words aren't readily accessibleto you. So if you do that body
scan and you're like, I don'tfucking know. I don't I'm fine.
Right? Fine might be because youdon't have the words to put to
the sensation. Mhmm. So you maywant to, as I'm doing, study the
words. Teach yourself the wordsas an act of service.
And it can be part of your dailypractice. So that's part of my
(44:41):
daily practice. And write outsome lines. And I say okay I'm
gonna go through like right nowI'm gonna go through the somatic
experience for like anythingrelated to fire or temperature.
So it's like hot, cold, cool,warm.
Right? Like, I'm just startingto, like, get an understanding
of these different sensations.
Timothy Bish (45:03):
Right. So I was just, reminding myself of, the 5
core emotions, which are youmentioned 3 of them. Like so
glad, sad, mad, fearful, orscared, and disgust. Right? And,
like, but from those, there is awhole wheel of nuance about like
(45:29):
what that can be or how the andand then the combinations of
those.
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (45:34):
And and studying uncomfortable and comfortable
emotions. Right? That's kind oflike where I start. Right? If
I'm experiencing something, isthis a comfortable thing or an
uncomfortable thing?
If I can start there, then I canexpand out or neutral. Is it
comfortable? Uncomfortable.Neutral. Okay.
If it's uncomfortable, nextlayer down.
Timothy Bish (45:52):
Why
Eric Bomyea (45:52):
is it uncomfortable? So my fingers
right now, it's a littleuncomfortable because they're
cold. Now I can ask myself,okay, my fingers are cold
without assigning story to it.Oh, I have bad circulation. So
like my fingers are cold.
I can just say like, do I havean emotion here? Just like just
like sit, chill, like relax. Isanything coming up? No. Neutral.
(46:14):
So then I don't have to attachto it. Mhmm. Right? I'm just
like, okay, I do have a littleuncomfortable sensation going
on, but there's no emotionsconnected to it. As I can tell
right now, it's a neutralexperience so I can just
continue to accept that that'swhat's happening.
Maybe I'll take a sip of my tea.Maybe I'll put on some gloves
right now so to remedy it thatway.
Timothy Bish (46:31):
Mhmm. So We should continue this on another episode
because then there's all theseblends of emotion, which can
include bittersweet Mhmm. Whichis both comfortable or lovely
and uncomfortablesimultaneously. So let's but so
with the idea of overwhelm, Ithink any person listening, 1st
and foremost, you have to startto ask yourself, inquire how
(46:55):
you're feeling as often as youcan. So and I said this with my
patients when I was anacupuncturist, like, we
shouldn't only do our use ourtools in the moments when we
desperately need them.
We should like look at them whenwe don't so we start to create a
scale, a gamut of like, well,what does it feel like over this
(47:16):
range? Right? And you start tothink about how am I feeling in
any given moment? And thenyou'll start to clue into when I
start to feel overwhelmed, thesecertain things are my pattern.
And I think each of us I I thinkthere are general common
patterns.
I think my abdominal digestivepattern is pretty common, but
(47:37):
it's mine. And I know otherpeople who are like, I have all
this, like, shoulder, neck, youknow, stuff or I have all this,
like, jaw stuff. I'm like, well,that isn't my journey. I don't I
don't have TMJ. That's not how Ido it.
But I can relate to, like, ifyour jaw stuff is the same thing
as my digestive stuff, I get it.Does that make sense? You know?
(47:58):
So the, so the invitation tolook at it in that way, and it
will inform everything else youdo. So how are you feeling
physically is such a powerfultool in all of men's work, but
specifically with overwhelm.
Because if you're overwhelmed, Ican almost guarantee you you're
feeling something. And if you'renot feeling something, it's
(48:22):
probably because you don't knowhow to look for it or you don't
know how to label it andidentify it as you just
beautifully said.
Eric Bomyea (48:30):
Alright. Well, we covered a lot of ground today.
Timothy Bish (48:33):
I think we did.
Eric Bomyea (48:33):
Yeah. We introduced overwhelm. Starting to feel
overwhelmed right now becauseI'm like, wow. I'm like, wow. We
actually went through a lot.
And I'm like, okay. Like, how doI how do I wrap this up? So,
again, real time processingy'all happening here on the
circle. So we talked about theexpectations that society puts
(48:53):
on men to have all the rightanswers, to do it by ourselves,
to, like, be the best ateverything that we do, never
asking for help, and how thatcan ultimately manifest if not
put in check into overwhelm andcollapse. And and whether that
is through isolation or, youknow, unhealthy behaviors, like,
(49:18):
yes.
Yes.
Timothy Bish (49:19):
I hear you. Yeah. So there there's all these ways
in which we can fall intooverwhelm, and there's all these
tools, practices, and supportsystems in which men's work can
support us through this prepthis process, this very human
process that belongs to allhumans, which is the essence of
(49:39):
men's work as I've defined it.Men's work is just human work in
the context. All humans arecapable of being overwhelmed, so
we are not alone when we feeloverwhelmed.
And then can we start to engagetools and practices to help us
manage it so that we don'tbecome a reaction, a trigger,
(49:59):
have it come out sideways. Ithink we covered a lot of it,
but luckily, this podcast is newand we are on a journey, and we
can revisit it over and over andover deeper and deeper and
deeper. Do do you feel complete?
Eric Bomyea (50:12):
Well, I just wanna say one last thing. Yeah.
Please. That, like, I think inthis moment, we also got to
witness I hope you all got towitness that, like, I was
experiencing overwhelm.
Timothy Bish (50:22):
I was
Eric Bomyea (50:22):
like, I have too much going on in my brain right
now, and I'm feeling trapped at,like, how do I communicate this?
And I was able to pass the batonover to Tim, and he was able to
recognize it. And, basically, Iasked for silent help.
Timothy Bish (50:36):
Mhmm. Where I
Eric Bomyea (50:36):
was like, can you can you come in? And he was able
to, like, come in and help me.And I didn't didn't let my ego
take over to be like, damn it. Ishould've had that. I was like,
no.
I need help right now. Yeah.And, like, was able to, like,
say, please please help. And hedid. And it was very nice.
And now I feel really, reallycomplete.
Timothy Bish (50:55):
And I also feel complete. And I adore you.
Eric Bomyea (50:58):
Adore you too. Alright. Will you take so?
Timothy Bish (51:00):
I will. So, with deep appreciation and gratitude
for this conversation that we'vehad for the insights that we may
have ex experienced and theconnection, the brotherhood, the
love, the openness, thevulnerability, the authenticity,
(51:23):
but these words are container isopen, but not broken. Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (51:27):
Uh-huh.
Timothy Bish (51:30):
Thank you so much for joining us here in the
circle. If you'd like to stayconnected to us between
episodes, please follow us onInstagram at queer men's
embodiment. Like, subscribe,rate, and review wherever you
find podcasts. And as we leavenow, I wish you brotherhood,
connection, authenticity,vulnerability, safety, and love.
(51:51):
And with these words, ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Uh-huh.
Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's
conversation about men's work,men's embodiment practice, men's
spirituality, and men's personalgrowth with an emphasis on how
queer men can participate,benefit, serve, and lead in
these spaces. My name is TimothyBish.
Eric Bomyea (00:19):
My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to the
circle. In this episode, wecontinue our exploration of the
strong man archetype and thepressures it places on men to do
it all, have all the answers,and never ask for help. These
expectations can leave menfeeling isolated and
overwhelmed. We'll explore howmen can handle these feelings,
create support systems, and moveaway from harmful stereotypes
(00:41):
towards a more balanced andauthentic way of being.
Tim, are you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish (00:45):
I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea (00:46):
Let's go. So a couple episodes ago, we talked
about authentic power and theconcept of the strong man came
up. Tim, can you give us arefresher on the strong man
archetype and share yourperspective on why it creates so
much pressure for men?
Timothy Bish (00:59):
I believe the strong man archetype is the
epitome of the challenge thatmen are having today. This
Marlboro man, John Wayne kind ofperson who is always in charge,
strong, has the answers, doesn'treally need help, lone wolf. So
(01:23):
many of these things, and welook at it. And what happens in
these movies, you know, JamesBond or whatever, you're like,
oh, you have money, you lookcool, you get laid by incredible
people. I want to be that.
And what it doesn't do is itdoesn't, represent the authentic
(01:44):
human experience. So I thinkwhat happens is that we see this
idea and we try for it, and westruggle, but then we are prone
to admiring or idealizing aperson who seems to have it even
(02:05):
though, no one does because it'snot real. Every person has
needed help, has, needed toreflect. They've needed to
pause. They've needed to wrestlewith, a failure whether it was
(02:26):
like big or small.
And, you know, we've talkedabout it so many times. Every
Olympic athlete that we've everrevered as a gold medalist, they
needed a coach. They neededsomeone. They've all had them. I
don't think I know any I can'tthey've changed them maybe, but
I don't know anyone who didn'thave one.
(02:48):
Giving them feedback from theoutside in. Right? And in my
dance career, same idea. Like, Ineeded people who had been there
and who had done it to tell methings I couldn't quite see
because I was so busy doingother things. That ability to
rely on people and to know thatwe need that support is the
(03:11):
opposite of this idea that Ineed nothing.
So when we think about thestrong man archetype, we think
about, I don't need that coach.I don't need that help. I don't
need that lesson. I don't needthat time. But that isn't the
human experience.
And so when we think about men'swork and what we're doing, we're
(03:34):
thinking about how do I allowmyself the thing I need to be
that person? Because there is aJohn Wayne. There is a Michael
Phelps. They're like thesepeople exist, but, like, what
did it take to actually getthere? What did they actually
(03:54):
need?
They needed this humility to notalways be the best. They needed
the humility, and we've all seenthis, to say I need to get, I
need to put my, I'm the best inmy school. I'm the best in my
region maybe. And now I need tofind the pool where there are
people who are as good or betterthan me or I'm never going to
(04:17):
get better. The humility, thevulnerability, the courage, the
bravery, that is the, the magicthat takes those people from the
best in your and then fill itin.
In your in your league, in yourschool, in your district, in
your, you know, in your stateand takes them to, like, oh,
you're the best in the world andhonoring that. I don't know if I
(04:42):
answered your question.
Eric Bomyea (04:43):
Well, so I want to unpack a couple of things here.
1 I just had an insight thatlike so going from like high
school and up right? Like solike I was an overachiever
achiever in high school where Iwas like, I need to be, I wasn't
the best in the class, but I waslike striving my way towards the
top. And I really like wasputting myself forward
intellectually. And I thoughtlike, oh, I'm gonna apply to a
(05:05):
great school, get in and like,you don't do that.
I'm gonna go up to the biggerpool. When I got to the bigger
pool, I realized, oh, wow. Iused to be the big fish in the
little pond. Now I'm a verylittle fish in a very big pond.
And there are some very big fishin this pond.
And it actually didn't inspireme. It actually did the
opposite. My after my 1stsemester, I crumbled. And, like,
(05:25):
I said, well, guess I'm justgonna give up then. Right?
Because, like, I was surroundedby all these, like, very
ambitious high achieving peopleand I was like well I can never
be that. And so I actually likelike got to a point where I was
like almost started flunkingbecause I just like started to
like give up. And so part ofpart of it is this this
(05:46):
archetype, this this I can dothings on my own and I'm not
gonna ask for help. In thatmoment, I needed to ask for
help. Mhmm.
And I didn't have the humilityto do it.
Timothy Bish (05:56):
But is that what stopped you? I'm gonna I'm gonna
jump in. Is that what stoppedyou? Because I wonder, like, the
the motivating factor, was itwere you motivated by being the
best or were you motivated bypursuing the thing you wanted to
pursue?
Eric Bomyea (06:11):
I'm not quite sure in this moment.
Timothy Bish (06:13):
Because I think if you're motivated, if one is
motivated by being the best Ijust wanna be the best. And it
felt good to be the best, and Iwas the best in high school. So
I'm gonna try to be the besthere. And so I go to be the
best, but then there are peoplewho are better than me and I
can't be the best. I'm gonnafall away.
Well, like, my example is like adancer. I was good, but I wasn't
(06:35):
the best. But I loved it so muchthat I was continually inspired
to to try to continue to be mybest and maybe the best. At some
point, I I think I hopefully gotto the point of, like, I'm not
interested in the best, butbeing my best. And to be clear,
(06:55):
I was never the best dancer.
I was a good dancer, and, Ithink there was a moment when I
was my best dancer. But I thinkthat's a really important
distinction. So, it is alluringto feel like, oh, I'm really
good at this. So maybe this iswhat I should do. I think men's
(07:18):
work helps us to understand,well, is that really what you
you should do?
Or like, what is your heart andsoul wanting you to do? And if
you're pursuing what it is youwant to do, purpose, mission,
intention, then you'll likelystick with it because you're
like, well, I can't imagine mylife without it. I was always a
(07:38):
dancer until I wasn't. Yeah. Ifthat makes sense.
Eric Bomyea (07:42):
Yeah. I think, like, I don't know. I mean, I
was 17, 18 years old. Right?Like, I don't know that I had a
clear idea of my purpose.
I was kind of just, like, goingalong with it. Like, it was
like, I think this is the rightnext move. Right? And I remember
very strong feelings of beingoverwhelmed in college of like,
oh my gosh. Like, I have takenon too much.
(08:04):
I think at one point, I, like,thought it was a great idea to
try to take 21 credits. And,wait.
Timothy Bish (08:09):
Just to for clarity, for me and for our
listeners, what is a typical 12or 16?
Eric Bomyea (08:15):
12 to 15, I think.
Timothy Bish (08:17):
Is a lot.
Eric Bomyea (08:17):
I think that's like
Timothy Bish (08:18):
Well, 15 to 16 is 4 full full credit classes in
the semester. Yes.
Eric Bomyea (08:24):
It's a lot.
Timothy Bish (08:25):
Yes. With a lot of homework and reading and yeah.
Eric Bomyea (08:27):
Okay. Yeah. And so, like, I was trying to do like a
double major, double minor,like, all these things. I would
like have this idea of like thislike very specific degree
program that I wanted to likecreate for myself And I was just
like I, you know, I had thecurse of more before I even
realized it. Right?
Like, I have always been that,like, just pile it on. And I
(08:48):
remember distinctly, like, thesefeelings of overwhelm of, like,
not being good enough, not beingable to, like, do it on my own.
Like, I would even go to officehours and, like, you know, I was
so ashamed to go to office hoursto, like, ask for help. You
know, I was trying, but, like, Ireally, like, I don't think I
had the humility then to reallytruly say, like, I can't do this
on my own and I need help andsupport. Yeah.
(09:10):
So I think, like, I was veryearly on, like, trying to model
these strong man archetypal andstereotypes of, like, I can do
this on my own. And if I can'tdo it on my own, then I'm not
good enough. I'm a failure. Andso I mean, I struggle with that
even today, but like back thendefinitely it was like very
clear that I had these thesechallenges.
Timothy Bish (09:35):
You know, the strong man archetype is a tricky
one because it doesn't allow forreally any part of our human
experience. So imagine you andI, I'm like, let's go for a jog.
Right? And even if we were likeI have friends who were like
(09:55):
very, practiced runners who liketo do half marathons and
marathons, you know, whatever.The idea that you would like
maybe like slow down or take abreak during your jog is, like,
not unheard of.
But when we think about, like,the representation of this
archetype, like, when when doyou remember Superman having,
(10:19):
like, taking a break? And Idon't. I I remember him, like,
being chained with kryptoniteand then, like, starting to
crumble. But there was never amoment where, like, I just flew,
like, around the earth, like, 25times really fast in order to,
like, reverse time. Right?
That scene I'm trying toremember now, like, where he we
(10:40):
never, we never watched himcatch his breath.
Eric Bomyea (10:43):
Right.
Timothy Bish (10:44):
So, but we're all trying to be that. And so when I
stop and catch my breath, am I afailure? And I think the
question is legitimate because,well, if I believe these images
where I'm never supposed to haveto do that, then probably. But
we're all human. And you'relike, of course, we watch again,
(11:09):
I'm gonna go back to I I wannatalk about the Olympics
Eric Bomyea (11:12):
Let's go.
Timothy Bish (11:12):
Just all the time. Like, can we change the name of
this podcast? I you watchOlympians at the end of whatever
they've done, and they collapsebecause they're exhausted. And
there's something so beautifulabout that. We and that's, I
think, part of the magic of theOlympics.
Like, oh, you just like crosscountry skiers, like falling
(11:34):
down at the end of their racesbecause they've just used every
ounce of what they've got. Howunbelievable. And yet we can't
somehow bring that into ourdaily life to be like, oh, if I
do something really big andreally, you know, I get to have
a moment where I collapse andrecover and, you know, and yes,
(11:57):
the difference would be there'slike media and people that like
flags and, you know, whatever.But like, can we create that for
ourselves when you finish aproject that you've been working
on for 2 weeks or a month orwhatever, and you're and you,
you know, and, like, it ends upgoing great. Like, can you give
yourself that?
We should all learn how to giveourselves that.
Eric Bomyea (12:17):
To Volley, you I just heard you say, like, finish
the race, finish the project.
Timothy Bish (12:21):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (12:22):
For me, like, I've gotta learn to take breaks
during the race, during theproject. Because what ends up
happening is I burn myself outbecause I'm I'm I'm sprinting to
the finish line. I'm trying toget to the finish line. So,
like, when I run, I'm asprinter, right? Like I'm a 6 6
and a half minute mile sprinter.
I want to get it done. I want togo fast. I want to go hard and
(12:46):
like I don't take breaks duringthat. I push myself to the point
of like when I finish my thing.I'm like I'm I fall on the
ground But what ends uphappening is I'm now sustaining
a knee injury that I've beennursing for several months now
Yeah.
That, like, comes and goes comesand goes. I think that it's
getting better and then all of asudden I do something and I
tweak it. Right? And it'sbecause I tried to push myself
(13:07):
too hard and I don't take thebreaks that I need to avoid that
moment of collapse at the end.
Timothy Bish (13:13):
I love what you're saying because we've seen it in
the Olympics a 100 times, a 1000times where there's a person who
was like gung ho and they areleading the whole time. But the
person who will ultimately endup winning that gold medal is
the one who understands thatpacing, that that like, oh, this
(13:34):
is not a bullet being fired outof a gun. This is an ebb and
flow. And can you imagine themental discipline it takes to be
the eventual gold medalist andsee that person darting in front
of you and they are 200 metersin front of you. Right?
And you have to remind yourself,I've trained. I've trained. I
(13:56):
know. I know how this goes. Iknow what I can do, and I cannot
try to chase that person rightnow.
And then we've seen it, and it'sa little bit heartbreaking for
the person who is doing it, butthey will often get eclipsed.
And it was and I think I sawthis on Instagram, like, when
(14:16):
we, something about, like,leaving our goals, we follow our
systems and, like, that system,that practice. Well, I've
practiced this. I know what Ihave to do to get to this place.
And so that's like the skill ofmen's work.
Can I learn my pacing? Can Ilearn can I understand the arc
(14:40):
of the experience? Can Iunderstand to the best of my
ability what it is I'm trying tocreate and what is reasonable in
the creation of that thing,which will inevitably mean
spikes of hard work, spikes ofrest and reflection, spikes of
editing, you know, whatever thething is? So I love that because
(15:01):
yes, I think we need thatability to, it's like active
recovery. Can I rest withoutstopping?
Eric Bomyea (15:14):
Yeah. I also have been starting to think now like
the tortoise and the hare aswell. Right? Boom. Like, the the
hare was a sprinter, but thehare would get distracted,
right, or do certain things.
I think there was some, like,moments where they're, like, off
like, you know, being a braggerto showboat. Maybe they're
they're like
Timothy Bish (15:32):
They were like showing off.
Eric Bomyea (15:33):
Right? Maybe they're like, you know, taking a
full rest to pause becausethey're like, oh, that that
tortoise, he's so far behindwith the tortoise. It's like,
no. I'm just gonna keep at mypace, my own steady pace where
I'm not burning myself
Timothy Bish (15:44):
out,
Eric Bomyea (15:45):
but I'm consistently moving forward.
Right? And the hair was the thespikes. Right? Spike fast, come
down.
Spike fast, come down. Spikefast, come down. Spike fast,
come down. And then lost trackof time and ultimately got
eclipsed by the the tortoise.And so, I think there's a couple
things here.
And I think it might be it mightbe based off of, like, a little
(16:06):
bit of, like, just personalityand personal preference. Right?
Like, you know, for me, mychallenge is to, you know, go
hard, go fast but give myselfrest and breaks when I need.
There's also an opportunity thatinstead of going so big so fast,
(16:26):
I could also slow down my paceand stretch out the time frame.
Right?
So both of those are options forme and figuring out which one is
best for me maybe situationalmight depend on the project or
the person or whatever it is,you know, that is, you know,
causing me to, like, go at thatvelocity. Right? Just, you know,
you have to, like, consider. AndI think that it create it
(16:46):
requires an awareness of what itis that I'm working towards and
how much capacity energy is inmy reserves.
Timothy Bish (16:53):
How much capacity and energy is in my reserves or
do I have, I think is a hugepart of what we're talking about
in overwhelm because I think sofrequently we will have this
idea of, well, my capacityshould be close to unlimited. I
should be Superman all the time.Right? I can, you know and I
(17:15):
think the conscious man is theman who understands, oh, I have
an ebbing and flowing capacitydepending on a number of
factors. Did I sleep?
Did I eat? Did I have a fightwith my partner? Like, do I have
children? You know, any numberof things. And then with that
understanding of, like, well,where am I on my on my scale?
(17:37):
Am I at a 100%? Which, I mean,when was the last time you were
at a 100%. I mean, right? But,like, or am I at 20%. And then
with that, you can start to makereally empowered decisions about
if I'm at 20% and I still havea, b, and c to do, then I
(17:59):
probably can't add d.
And I shouldn't be surprisedwhen in the completion or the
doing of c, I'm feeling avariety of things. Discontented,
exhausted, edgy, you know. Theawareness of those things can
help you mitigate them so theydon't come out sideways so you
(18:22):
don't end up screaming at yourkids. I remember as a kid, like,
getting screamed at and beinglike, I don't even like, I don't
know. And you look back laterand you're like, oh, my my
guardian in this moment was attheir wit's end, but without
tools.
So they were just kind offlaring, you know? And imagine
(18:44):
if you're like, hey, everybody.Come into the car. Let's all be
a little quiet because, youknow, give some context and what
that might have done. Yeah.
The awareness of your capacityis a huge thing in men's work
and an overwhelm.
Eric Bomyea (19:02):
Yeah. Absolutely. And, like, when I heard you
talking about, like, you know,potentially taking on that that
4th item, that d. Right? Like,I'm I'm that person that I'm
like,
Timothy Bish (19:16):
I'm that person. Welcome to the Circle.
Eric Bomyea (19:17):
Welcome to the Circle. I'm that person where
Wait up. Sorry. I'm in the Tell
Timothy Bish (19:23):
us more about taking on the
Eric Bomyea (19:24):
I'm gonna take on that d.
Timothy Bish (19:26):
Yeah. Take on that d. And when you take on the d
Eric Bomyea (19:28):
What ends up happening? What
Timothy Bish (19:29):
do you do?
Eric Bomyea (19:30):
I get overwhelmed.
Timothy Bish (19:31):
Oh, it's like this d. It's overwhelming me. I get
it. I get it. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (19:38):
So A
Timothy Bish (19:38):
lot of people could relate. Is this where we,
like, put in an advertisement?Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (19:51):
Yeah. So, like, I get to that point of like taking
on more more more more more andmy overwhelm manifests itself
and like the inability toactually now do anything. I get
to a point of like I hit a wallwith everything. I get so easily
distracted. My energy isdepleted and I can't figure out
(20:13):
where to focus.
I lose focus when I getoverwhelmed with too many
things, too many options, or toomany things in the air at any
given time. Yeah. And it hasbecome part of my practice now
to, like, can I, like, groundmyself if in a situation I have
no choice but to like continueon with all the things that I've
(20:34):
taken on? An example being I wasjust visiting my mother. I was
helping her out.
She just gotten out of thehospital and I had like 20
things in my brain juggling oflike things that I needed to get
done, things that I needed tohelp her out with, like running
to the pharmacy, going groceryshopping, meal prepping, like
all these things while alsotrying to like be present for my
(20:55):
mother, right? And I I think ina I think in an effort to
protect myself emotionally from,like, what I was being there to
do, I was taking on more tasks,more micro responsibilities like
meal prep. Mhmm. Right? Shedidn't ask for it.
I just was doing it because Ithink I was trying to distract
myself. And so I was just pilingmore on my plate. And I remember
(21:18):
coming back from the grocerystore and just like having these
bags of groceries being in hervery small kitchen for the first
time and like not really knowingthe organizational system like
all these things and like I gotto a place of like complete
overwhelm where I all of asudden my brain was trying to go
in 50 different directions and Icouldn't focus on anything.
Timothy Bish (21:36):
You talked about this in the circle, didn't you?
Eric Bomyea (21:38):
And typically. Right? What yeah. And typically
what used to happen in momentslike that is I would reach for
alcohol.
Timothy Bish (21:45):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (21:45):
Or I would go smoke a cigarette or something that I
would use to, like, numb myselfto calm myself down. And instead
of doing that, and I was temptedbecause my mom had vodka in the
fridge. And I was like, I wassuper tempted to grab that
bottle. And some people arelike, oh, you probably would
have just had a drink. I waslike, no.
No. No. I would have had thebottle.
Timothy Bish (22:04):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (22:04):
Right? That bottle would have been go go go go
down. And so I, like, in thatmoment, actually use some of our
practices from circle and, like,just, like, felt my feet on the
ground, grounded myself, didquick breath practice
Timothy Bish (22:16):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (22:17):
And, like, recentered. I didn't, like stop
doing the things that I hadsigned up to do, but I was able
to then do them 1 at a time alittle bit more mindfully.
Timothy Bish (22:26):
What a beautiful example. I wanna talk a little
bit about because you and I havevery different experiences of
how we deal with overwhelm.
Eric Bomyea (22:37):
How do you experience that?
Timothy Bish (22:38):
Would you agree would you agree with that?
Eric Bomyea (22:39):
Well, tell me how you're experiencing
Timothy Bish (22:40):
it. I'm going to. Well, would you agree with it
before I tell you? Okay. Yeah.
We've talked about this. I amthe person who when I feel
overwhelmed, when I feelanxious, whatever, I completely
lose my appetite. I stop eating.I couldn't eat if I wanted to or
I can only eat sporadically.And, I have to be mindful about,
(23:06):
like, my energy because I alsodo a ton of fitness.
So, like, am I getting enough,you know, and all that. And
there are other people who havethe opposite experience. And is
it fair to say based on whatyou've told me that like your
experience is different thanmine?
Eric Bomyea (23:21):
Yeah. I mean, it it it depends like so in some
moments I am a binger. I'm aperson that like if I'm starting
to feel overwhelmed I go intolike manic panic. And like the
only thing that will like helpcalm me down is a binge. And
that used to be alcohol.
Sometimes now it's candy or icecream. You know, where I like I
(23:42):
can't focus. If I can't focus onanything, there is one thing
that I can focus on and that'sadvice.
Timothy Bish (23:47):
Like but like food?
Eric Bomyea (23:49):
Right now, yes. Yeah.
Timothy Bish (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah. So I bring it up because I have to
imagine that the experience ofoverwhelm, which for me has
always been, a physiologicalone. So yes, of course, when
anyone's overwhelmed, I have 5or 6 things to do. I don't have
enough time to do them.
There's a mental component toit. But for me, it's always then
(24:12):
started in my body and I'm likeI start to feel a tightening, a
heat, my elevated heart rate,you know, sweating, whatever the
things are. And they canmanifest in very different ways.
And I'm bringing it up because,if I'm trying to figure out if
someone in my life isoverwhelmed, I have to
(24:33):
understand, well, how did theyexperience overwhelm? Because
they may or may not experienceit like I do.
And you know, I can't tell youhow many times people have said,
you know, why aren't you eating?And it's like, well, I I just
like, I I I can't right now. Andthen and then in that moment
(24:55):
you're like, well, am I supposedto tell you, oh, I'm, I feel
totally alone in this world andno one understands me and I
don't belong here. Like or orwhat, you know, like, what am I
supposed to say? And I think thealternative would be and I'd be
interested to hear, like, ifyou're that other person, why
are you eating so much?
Like, what's the right answer?You know?
Eric Bomyea (25:17):
Because like I said, like, if my brain isn't
able to focus on anything, ifI've got 5 things that I'm
trying to do at any given point,my brain has gotten to a point
of overwhelm.
Timothy Bish (25:27):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (25:27):
I have too many things to do. So my body says,
well, there's one thing you canfocus on. And now I'm gonna
point you and, like, laser pointyou, like, super focused. You
can't do anything else but this.And that thing for me for a long
time was vice.
Right? Whether that was drugsand alcohol or, like, binge
(25:49):
eating. And so my question toyou is, so, like, how does that
manifest? If you've got 5 thingsin front of you, you're telling
me that like it you you'refeeling it physiologically but
is that like how mentally areyou processing it as well?
Timothy Bish (26:03):
How am I mentally processing?
Eric Bomyea (26:07):
So again, my my example is that like I've got 5
things. Yeah. My brain's tellingme you can't focus on any of
these. Mhmm. So instead you'regonna focus on this one thing.
Oh, right. This one thing isadvice.
Timothy Bish (26:16):
Oh, right. So yeah. I I it's a different
version for me. It's a differentversion of hyperfocus. But for
me it's a hyper focus on whatisn't working in a way that's,
that kind of shuts me down.
So it doesn't take me to, well,eat that donut and you'll feel
(26:39):
better. Usually it takes me to,I think for me it's taken me to
this place of, well, you can'tchange it. So what can you do?
And I and so this is when welike, so we come back to men's
work and I think this is why somany spiritual and personal
(27:02):
growth systems, talk about thevalue of a daily practice. So
now you and I, I don't know ifwe've talked about it on the
podcast yet or not, we'vestarted the morning pages,
right?
We do 3 pages of stream ofconsciousness writing. Then I
(27:22):
write out my 10 affirmations or10 things I'm grateful for, 3
people I want to send love andcompassion to. I do it like
another thing. I know you haveother, you know, we do this
stuff. I also have like myphysical practice and, and I
rely on those things so thatwhen I am confronted with the
(27:42):
intensity of what could beoverwhelm, I have greater
capacity.
So I think the idea being thatif I wake up and I'm full, I'm a
cup and I'm full, then if thatday wants to pour any more into
my cup, I'm overflowing. And Ithink spiritual practice,
(28:04):
personal growth practice does 2things. It, a, empties some of
the overwhelm you might alreadybe holding and it, b, expands
your capacity It makes your cupbigger. You there's a spiritual
teaching about like expandingyour vessel. It's very kabbalah,
kabbalah, kabbalah.
(28:25):
It's however you pronounce it,Expanding your vessel. How like,
how how much more can youexpand? So how much light can
you hold? Right? And I thinkthat's what our our daily
practice does for us so that,okay, well, I have greater
capacity.
(28:45):
It is like a preemptive orpreventative measure to
overwhelm. Because the timesthat I've been overwhelmed, and
I'd love to hear your thoughtson this, like I've almost never
been able to plan them. I mean,obviously, there are some days
where you're like, oh.
Eric Bomyea (29:02):
I could see it coming from a mile away.
Timothy Bish (29:04):
Well, because you're like you're like, today,
I have, like, 8 things I need todo because I'm in a program.
Right? I'm like I'm I'm likefinishing a thing or there's
like this project and, like,you've had, like, the warnings.
But sometimes you're like, Iwoke up to do, like, my regular
thing and then a 100 thingshappened that I did not expect.
That I think is the overwhelmthat messes with people because
(29:27):
you're like, oh, I went to thegas station thinking I was gonna
get a soda and and gas.
And instead I got a mouthfulfrom some person who I bumped
into accidentally when they weregetting their coffee. What do
you do with that? And then youadd that on to like, then I got
to the I got to work and mycolleague was upset because I
had left. I'm not I mean, I'm atyou know, it's just like and
(29:49):
it's sort of like buying lunch,you've had 4 things and you're
like, I don't know what to do.And then you're like, now I'm
eating the donut or I'm noteating the donut.
Eric Bomyea (29:58):
And if we think about the cup analogy of the
vessel, right? So I think thereare ways in which we can, like,
expand our vessel. We talk aboutour our daily practices. Those
are ways that expand ourcapacity to hold. Then there is,
(30:18):
like releasing some of the thevolume inside of our container,
our vessel.
Right? Doing that throughreleasing of things whether that
is through, you know, journalingor just like some sort of
surrender. Right? And you'rejust like, okay, like, I'm
Timothy Bish (30:36):
just moving, moving, screaming. Yeah.
Breathing.
Eric Bomyea (30:39):
Getting it out.
Timothy Bish (30:39):
Like expressing. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (30:41):
A, then I think too, like, when there are those
unexpected things that could endup filling your vessel to the
point of overflow. There's alsoacceptance. Acceptance has a
secret weapon that can, be afilter or some sort of blockage
to how much then comes in toyour container. Right? Like,
(31:03):
maybe it's like a nozzle.
Right? Acceptance could be likea nozzle like if it's a if if
that, running into that personat the gas station is this big
like drop that's about to comein or this stream that's about
to come into your vessel. Like,acceptance can kind of be a
nozzle that kind of like reduceshow much comes in. Mhmm. Right?
Be like, I'm just accepting,like, I didn't expect this to
(31:24):
happen, but I accept that ithappened and we're moving on.
Timothy Bish (31:27):
Well, how many times in your life have you had
the experience? I've done this.Where you walk into a situation
with tools and you tell someonefeeling really overwhelmed. I
mean, you and I actually hadthis earlier today, right? We
were going to meet and then abunch of stuff happened and now
I'm like, now I feel reallyoverwhelmed.
(31:49):
I had two choices. I couldeither acknowledge what I was
feeling and then we could, like,talk about it, which we did.
Thank you, by the way. You'rewelcome. Or I could have
pretended and then tried to gothrough a series of interactions
and and behaviors and whatever,kind of carrying this weight and
(32:12):
not really being there fully foreither of us.
And so the practice has, like,led me to telling you, but it
required me to be able to be alittle embarrassed. I'm like,
oh, I just these three thingshappened and now I feel
overwhelmed and I had to likesit with, is there going to be a
(32:36):
judgment about that? Now luckilyI'm talking to you and there
wasn't one and thank you forthat. But, like, that's why we
do this work because the truthis most of us would have been
overwhelmed. Yeah.
And, like, the three thingscould be different. Right? Like,
depending on who you are andwhere you are. So maybe it has
something to do with things thataren't in my sphere at all. But
(32:57):
if they matter to you, which isreally the criteria, like it
doesn't matter if it's we'retalking about men's work or
we're talking about whateverminutiae of your job?
You're an engineer. You're amechanic. You're a pilot.
Whatever you are. You know?
You've got things that youprobably care about and then if
(33:18):
they don't go well, you probablyhave a feeling about that. Can
we create the space where we canbe like, well, I don't know your
pilot stress, but I can relateto stress. Mhmm. So can we join
on that? And the I think theanswer is yes if we have enough
awareness.
Right?
Eric Bomyea (33:32):
And you said it too. It's like it's situational
too. It's daily that it it justdepends on how like it's the
perfect storm of things. Right?Like someday you may not have
slept well.
And so something that wouldn'thave bothered you on another day
can all of a sudden fill yourvessel up to overflow super
quickly. Yeah. Right? Becauseyou you just just because?
Timothy Bish (33:54):
I I didn't I didn't know.
Eric Bomyea (33:55):
Right? There's no valueless. There's no judgment
to the things that can fill youup, but the awareness that you
are getting filled up to thatbrink of pour over is important.
Timothy Bish (34:05):
And some days are bubbles intact and some days it
isn't. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (34:08):
And I think today what you demonstrated too by
being able to like express youroverwhelm is the power of
sharing it with somebody and thepower of community as a tool.
You know, we have a lot of toolsthat we can work on our
individualistically of thingsthat we can do in the moment or
things that we can do for selfcare, things that we can do to
(34:28):
expand our our own containersbut there is that that secret
weapon that a lot of men, myselfincluded, are really, against
and that is asking for help fromothers.
Timothy Bish (34:42):
But it required trust and so this is if people
are listening now, what is thevalue of men's work or one of
the values of men's work is thecreation of community with men
you trust so that you can havethat experience. If I didn't
trust you, I never would havetold you. I would have, I would
(35:03):
have immediately gone back intomy old ways of being, in service
to my own survival and therewould have been, you know, a
ripple effect. Maybe I wouldhave talked later to people in
my life differently and, youknow, whatever it might have
been. So can we can we start tocreate relationships of trust so
(35:27):
that I can bring overwhelm toyou because I've seen you be
willing to bring overwhelm tome?
This is like when we're in men'swork and in men's retreats, and
you're like, I can I canobserve, I can see, I can hear,
I can witness another man havinghis experience? It not only will
(35:49):
it inspire, it gives permission.I mean, like, oh, I'm not so
alone and I felt that too. Sonow maybe I can show you that.
And then when we all show eachother, you're like, okay.
Well, now it can exist as partof our experience that includes
the moments when we feel reallyproficient and sexy and fun and,
like, lighthearted and relaxedand, you know, all that other
(36:12):
stuff that we wanna be. You'relike, well, sometimes those
people are stressed or tired oroverwhelmed or, you know,
lonely. And you're like, oh,okay.
Eric Bomyea (36:26):
I'm not so alone in this. And, like, when Yeah. I
recognize that I'm not so alonein my struggles, I can create
powerful connections with peoplethat allow me like, it builds
that trust. Right? And now Ihave a powerful connection with
somebody that allows me anoutlet to transform what used to
be a weakness asking for helpinto something that creates a
(36:49):
powerful connection and apowerful bond in a mutual
reciprocated way.
That's like, you know, it'shelpful to me and it could be
helpful for the other person aswell because now they're also
realizing they're not alone.They're like, oh, I see you.
Yeah. Right? You see me.
Okay. Now I can also So
Timothy Bish (37:05):
I wanna go back to something I said earlier, which
was that for me, overwhelm ismainly like a a physical
physiological, sensationalexperience. Because when we talk
about the value of men's work,part of that is the the real
practice of asking ourselves andlooking into what is it I'm
(37:28):
feeling in any given moment.Because I believe that a lot of
people who do not have thatpractice experience overwhelm
and they're it's kindadisconnected. So it's almost as
if you're sort of like I'm in abubble of, storm clouds or or
whatever the image might be, butI but I'm like but I I can I can
(37:52):
feel it sort of happening aroundme, but I'm not connected to it?
And so I don't really know whatto do with it.
And then I try tointellectualize it, which isn't
really gonna help. And so thethe practices of men's work,
breath, movement, you know,posture, sound, visualization,
attention, etcetera, etcetera,help us so that, oh, now I can
(38:15):
start to feel in my own body.Oh, I feel that tension. And I
don't I don't want, you know,because everyone feels it
differently. I I often get it inmy in my in my gut and I
personally get it in my gut andin my midline, sometimes in my
throat, and then heat in myface.
But when I feel these things,I'm like, oh, something's up.
(38:36):
And it it becomes like a, likea, a flag, like a, a signal.
Tim, start to pay attentionbecause you are moving in this
direction. And what anunbelievably valuable tool that
is because it gives me a headsup of like, oh, instead of
finding myself in the depth ofoverwhelm, I can see myself
(38:59):
heading there and I can start totake some action so that I don't
get in over my head.
Eric Bomyea (39:08):
I think that the awareness of it, right, is like
the the core root of of men'swork and, like, building on that
daily, right, through all sortsof different practices, formal
and informal, just like startingto really listen to ourselves
and understanding what'sarising. What are the warning
(39:29):
signs so that we don't get tothat point of my my cup is now
overflowing and like I'm now ina full reactionary state.
Timothy Bish (39:38):
And Yeah. So I, you know, I've had the
experience as a facilitator ofasking men, like, how they're
feeling, and sometimes it is sofar away that they don't know
what to do. And so I've heardpeople be like, I feel fine.
Like, I'm like, well, how doesyour body feel? I feel fine.
(40:00):
So if you are a person listeningright now and you like that
experience is far away from you,then I would recommend this
gentle practice, which would bewhen you're able, definitely not
if you're driving, when you areable, sit down, stand if it's
comfortable, lay down, but startto scan through your body and
(40:26):
notice how you're feeling. And Iwould say begin by doing a
gentle scan in whatever way youwould. But when you are complete
with that scan, start to askyourself about how you feel in
places you don't often thinkabout. So if you're listening
now, I imagine you're not askingyourself how you feel behind
(40:50):
your ears or on the back of yourneck, unless your neck hurts.
You're probably not askingyourself, like, what the, what
the back, like the tips of myelbows feel like or my Achilles
tendons or the arch of my footthat isn't touching the ground.
And if you start to draw yourawareness, and it won't happen
(41:13):
immediately, but if you start todraw your awareness there,
you'll notice that actuallythere is sensation everywhere.
So you and I are in these chairsright now. Like, if I asked you
to, like, think about the creasebetween your arms and your back
and the back of your shoulderand feel what's happening there
(41:34):
through practice, it may be hardto find the right word, but do
you feel something there? Okay.Yeah.
Yeah. And if I asked you to feellike what's happening, in the
back of your calf muscle rightnow, do you feel something
there?
Eric Bomyea (41:50):
I do.
Timothy Bish (41:51):
Yeah. So when we start to develop that skill,
then typically with things likeoverwhelm, we're gonna feel it
in our core. We're gonna feel itin our heart. We're gonna feel
it in our gut. We're gonna feelit in our pelvis sometimes.
Like, we're gonna feel it in ourjaw or in our shoulders. Like
these places where we typicallyfeel tension. So it can be
(42:13):
different for everyone. Butyou're like, oh, I'm starting to
clench my jaw again and I have atendency of TMJ. Well, that that
might not just be like aphysiological issue that you
need to talk to your doctorabout.
It might be a sign that you'refeeling overwhelmed. So A, can
you relax your jaw? And then B,can you shine your light of
awareness on, well, what'scausing me to tighten my jaw or
(42:36):
lift my shoulders or, you know,on and on and on.
Eric Bomyea (42:41):
So as you were asking me to detect what I was
feeling, I was able toexperience or feel the
experience of, like, my clothes,like, on my body.
Timothy Bish (42:50):
Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea (42:50):
Right? So I can feel my jeans on the back of my
calves right now. Right? And I'mable to do that because I'm
developing, not a great, butdeveloping a vocabulary of
sensation. Mhmm.
These are things that I was nottaught. I was not taught a
vocabulary of, bodily sensationsthat made it easy or accessible
(43:16):
for me to communicate even tomyself. Right? Like, let alone
to somebody else. What it is I'mfeeling in my body?
And so what I've had to do isactually study lists of words
and make flashcards and writeout lines so that I can start to
say, oh, tingling is asensation. I can start to now
(43:36):
use tingling in a sentence.Right? As I describe my body.
But before the last coupleyears, these words were not
readily accessible to me becauseI wasn't taught this vocabulary,
and many of us are not.
And now add emotions in there.My rudimentary understanding of
emotions is, like, happy, sad,angry. Right? Like, that was
(43:58):
Yeah. That was the the extentof, like, how I was able to
describe emotions.
And so now I'm, like, studyingemotions and I'm saying, okay,
like, I can start to expand outand, like, understand there are,
several different ways that Ican explain the the the emotion
that's going on in my body.Right? So that's also
encouragement that I would giveto folks is, like, if these
(44:20):
words aren't readily accessibleto you. So if you do that body
scan and you're like, I don'tfucking know. I don't I'm fine.
Right? Fine might be because youdon't have the words to put to
the sensation. Mhmm. So you maywant to, as I'm doing, study the
words. Teach yourself the wordsas an act of service.
And it can be part of your dailypractice. So that's part of my
(44:41):
daily practice. And write outsome lines. And I say okay I'm
gonna go through like right nowI'm gonna go through the somatic
experience for like anythingrelated to fire or temperature.
So it's like hot, cold, cool,warm.
Right? Like, I'm just startingto, like, get an understanding
of these different sensations.
Timothy Bish (45:03):
Right. So I was just, reminding myself of, the 5
core emotions, which are youmentioned 3 of them. Like so
glad, sad, mad, fearful, orscared, and disgust. Right? And,
like, but from those, there is awhole wheel of nuance about like
(45:29):
what that can be or how the andand then the combinations of
those.
Yeah.
Eric Bomyea (45:34):
And and studying uncomfortable and comfortable
emotions. Right? That's kind oflike where I start. Right? If
I'm experiencing something, isthis a comfortable thing or an
uncomfortable thing?
If I can start there, then I canexpand out or neutral. Is it
comfortable? Uncomfortable.Neutral. Okay.
If it's uncomfortable, nextlayer down.
Timothy Bish (45:52):
Why
Eric Bomyea (45:52):
is it uncomfortable? So my fingers
right now, it's a littleuncomfortable because they're
cold. Now I can ask myself,okay, my fingers are cold
without assigning story to it.Oh, I have bad circulation. So
like my fingers are cold.
I can just say like, do I havean emotion here? Just like just
like sit, chill, like relax. Isanything coming up? No. Neutral.
(46:14):
So then I don't have to attachto it. Mhmm. Right? I'm just
like, okay, I do have a littleuncomfortable sensation going
on, but there's no emotionsconnected to it. As I can tell
right now, it's a neutralexperience so I can just
continue to accept that that'swhat's happening.
Maybe I'll take a sip of my tea.Maybe I'll put on some gloves
right now so to remedy it thatway.
Timothy Bish (46:31):
Mhmm. So We should continue this on another episode
because then there's all theseblends of emotion, which can
include bittersweet Mhmm. Whichis both comfortable or lovely
and uncomfortablesimultaneously. So let's but so
with the idea of overwhelm, Ithink any person listening, 1st
and foremost, you have to startto ask yourself, inquire how
(46:55):
you're feeling as often as youcan. So and I said this with my
patients when I was anacupuncturist, like, we
shouldn't only do our use ourtools in the moments when we
desperately need them.
We should like look at them whenwe don't so we start to create a
scale, a gamut of like, well,what does it feel like over this
(47:16):
range? Right? And you start tothink about how am I feeling in
any given moment? And thenyou'll start to clue into when I
start to feel overwhelmed, thesecertain things are my pattern.
And I think each of us I I thinkthere are general common
patterns.
I think my abdominal digestivepattern is pretty common, but
(47:37):
it's mine. And I know otherpeople who are like, I have all
this, like, shoulder, neck, youknow, stuff or I have all this,
like, jaw stuff. I'm like, well,that isn't my journey. I don't I
don't have TMJ. That's not how Ido it.
But I can relate to, like, ifyour jaw stuff is the same thing
as my digestive stuff, I get it.Does that make sense? You know?
(47:58):
So the, so the invitation tolook at it in that way, and it
will inform everything else youdo. So how are you feeling
physically is such a powerfultool in all of men's work, but
specifically with overwhelm.
Because if you're overwhelmed, Ican almost guarantee you you're
feeling something. And if you'renot feeling something, it's
(48:22):
probably because you don't knowhow to look for it or you don't
know how to label it andidentify it as you just
beautifully said.
Eric Bomyea (48:30):
Alright. Well, we covered a lot of ground today.
Timothy Bish (48:33):
I think we did.
Eric Bomyea (48:33):
Yeah. We introduced overwhelm. Starting to feel
overwhelmed right now becauseI'm like, wow. I'm like, wow. We
actually went through a lot.
And I'm like, okay. Like, how doI how do I wrap this up? So,
again, real time processingy'all happening here on the
circle. So we talked about theexpectations that society puts
(48:53):
on men to have all the rightanswers, to do it by ourselves,
to, like, be the best ateverything that we do, never
asking for help, and how thatcan ultimately manifest if not
put in check into overwhelm andcollapse. And and whether that
is through isolation or, youknow, unhealthy behaviors, like,
(49:18):
yes.
Yes.
Timothy Bish (49:19):
I hear you. Yeah. So there there's all these ways
in which we can fall intooverwhelm, and there's all these
tools, practices, and supportsystems in which men's work can
support us through this prepthis process, this very human
process that belongs to allhumans, which is the essence of
(49:39):
men's work as I've defined it.Men's work is just human work in
the context. All humans arecapable of being overwhelmed, so
we are not alone when we feeloverwhelmed.
And then can we start to engagetools and practices to help us
manage it so that we don'tbecome a reaction, a trigger,
(49:59):
have it come out sideways. Ithink we covered a lot of it,
but luckily, this podcast is newand we are on a journey, and we
can revisit it over and over andover deeper and deeper and
deeper. Do do you feel complete?
Eric Bomyea (50:12):
Well, I just wanna say one last thing. Yeah.
Please. That, like, I think inthis moment, we also got to
witness I hope you all got towitness that, like, I was
experiencing overwhelm.
Timothy Bish (50:22):
I was
Eric Bomyea (50:22):
like, I have too much going on in my brain right
now, and I'm feeling trapped at,like, how do I communicate this?
And I was able to pass the batonover to Tim, and he was able to
recognize it. And, basically, Iasked for silent help.
Timothy Bish (50:36):
Mhmm. Where I
Eric Bomyea (50:36):
was like, can you can you come in? And he was able
to, like, come in and help me.And I didn't didn't let my ego
take over to be like, damn it. Ishould've had that. I was like,
no.
I need help right now. Yeah.And, like, was able to, like,
say, please please help. And hedid. And it was very nice.
And now I feel really, reallycomplete.
Timothy Bish (50:55):
And I also feel complete. And I adore you.
Eric Bomyea (50:58):
Adore you too. Alright. Will you take so?
Timothy Bish (51:00):
I will. So, with deep appreciation and gratitude
for this conversation that we'vehad for the insights that we may
have ex experienced and theconnection, the brotherhood, the
love, the openness, thevulnerability, the authenticity,
(51:23):
but these words are container isopen, but not broken. Uh-huh.
Eric Bomyea (51:27):
Uh-huh.
Timothy Bish (51:30):
Thank you so much for joining us here in the
circle. If you'd like to stayconnected to us between
episodes, please follow us onInstagram at queer men's
embodiment. Like, subscribe,rate, and review wherever you
find podcasts. And as we leavenow, I wish you brotherhood,
connection, authenticity,vulnerability, safety, and love.
(51:51):
And with these words, ourcontainer is open but not
broken.
Uh-huh.
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