Transforming Judgment: A Path to Growth in Men's Work

Judgment is a natural human response, but how often do we pause to examine its impact on our lives? In this episode, Eric and Tim go all in on the role of judgment in men's work, exploring how it can disrupt presence and hinder personal growth. They discuss the nuances of self-judgment and the fear of being judged by others, particularly within the queer community. By sharing personal experiences and insights, they offer strategies to transform judgment from a reactive habit into a conscious tool for self-awareness and connection. Tune in to learn how embracing curiosity and compassion can reshape the way we perceive ourselves and others, turning judgment into an opportunity for deeper understanding and growth.

Episode Transcript

Eric Bomyea (00:06):
Welcome back to the circle. We all judge ourselves,
others, the world around us. Ithappens fast, often without us
even realizing it most of thetime. Today, we're exploring how
men can work with judgment, howto notice it, understand it, and
transform it into a tool ofgrowth. Tim, are you ready to go
all in?
I'm ready. Let's go. So in men'swork, we talk a lot about

(00:29):
presence, about being thewitness, fully seeing what's in
front of us. But judgment canuproot us, pulling us from
observation into reaction. Howdo you see judgment showing up
in men's lives, and how does ithow does it affect their ability
to stay present?

Timothy Bish (00:45):
For me, I think that judgment is challenging
because it is so interwoven intoour lives and our culture. This
idea that there is a right wayor a standard that we're all
supposed to know and be able toachieve, and there's often a lot

(01:09):
of assumption around that. Andso I was thinking about this
earlier when I thought tomyself, oh, one of the
challenges of judgment and thisidea that there's a right way
and then therefore a wrong wayis that a lot of times there's
actually one right way and manywrong ways depending on your
perspective or your, you know,your upbringing, your culture,

(01:31):
but you know whatever. And sothis sort of threat of getting
it wrong is pervasive. I thinkit weighs heavily, and then we
live in a culture where it'shard for us to ask for help or
for clarification or forquestions, which is what part of
men's work does.
So I think, you know, whenpeople when men come to men's

(01:54):
work wanting fuller expression,one of the first things we need
to do is shine the light ofawareness on areas where they
where people feel stuck or heldor paralyzed in some way because
they feel that they need to doit right, and they don't

(02:15):
entirely know what that means.And I think I've seen a lot of
men with that experience.

Eric Bomyea (02:20):
Absolutely. And and I when the admitting that you're
wrong, right, that, like, if youare going through the world with
this sense of there's a rightway and a wrong way, and if one
of the first steps is to just,like, ask for help, you have to
admit that you're wrong. That isa super vulnerable thing. But if
we can reframe it into, like, II need a little bit of help
because I'm I'm struggling withsomething very specific, and I

(02:43):
think that that could be alittle helpful as well as

Timothy Bish (02:45):
Yeah. I think asking for help is a really
powerful thing. It also makes methink about the queer experience
and this idea that being wrongcould question your safety.
Being wrong could be dangerousto you, so I think that's one
slice of it for a for a queerperson in particular. Oh, if I'm

(03:07):
wrong, I could get yelled at, Icould get made fun of, I could
get singled out, I could getbeaten up, I could, you know,
any number of things.
And then I think number two iswith certain aspects, oh, I can
never be right in the context ofwhat I'm being told right is.
So, you know, the most obviousexample is don't be queer. And,

(03:31):
you know, when you come to therealization that that isn't a
choice you can make, you have towrestle with this idea, well,
there's a right way and a wrongway. And according to this
manner of thinking, I can neverbe right, which I think is then
hard to, work with.

Eric Bomyea (03:53):
Yeah. That's been a big part of my self work and
self reflection lately is divinginto judgment and that fear,
that threat of getting thingswrong, and what does that mean?
And so I have really been kindof, like, paralyzed in certain
situations of, like, oh, am Igonna do this right? Mhmm. And I

(04:17):
think that it comes from veryearly on, like, being so afraid
that, like, I'm not right, thatthere's something about me that
is incorrect, that it's wrong,that, like, I'm not gonna fit
the mold of what my upbringingwas telling me was the right way
to be, right, that I was gonnagrow up and and be a father and

(04:38):
be a husband and, like, have,you know, the kind of that
classic life.
I was like, well, that's not me.And so I really thought I was
like, oh, then I'm wrong. Right?If that's the right way to be,
then I'm wrong. So themoralistic judgment was very,
like, I was internalizing.

Timothy Bish (04:54):
And I don't think there's a lot of areas, or at
least in my experience, wherethis allowance to be wrong is
welcomed, but I feel compellednow to say I feel fortunate that
I was an artist. I was a dancerand a choreographer, and I I
studied and immersed myself inthat. And so there are so many

(05:14):
books, but one in particular,written by Twyla Tharp, The
Creative Habit, and Twyla Tharpwas the director and
choreographer of my firstBroadway show, Moving Out. She's
a a genius and a and a force ofmodern dance, and she wrote this
self help book helping peopleget connected to their
creativity, but some of thecreativity required an allowance

(05:39):
for what we might describe as amistake. Now she I don't think
she said it that way, and it'sbeen a long time since I read
that book, but not even mistakesbut what in the process of
finding whatever it is you'recreating, there can be a
messiness.
So for example, you know, whenwe think about baking and I
don't know why I'm making thismetaphor because I don't bake

(06:01):
and I should learn, but youthink about the kitchen and and
what we end up judging iswhatever the end product is and
we never beat up the, you know,the baker for, oh, there was
flour on the counter or therewas, you know, eggshell and, you
know, that isn't how we do it.Right? But in other aspects of
our lives, that's exactly whatwe do. Like, oh, I'm gonna judge

(06:22):
you. You your hands are coveredin flour.
You're dirty. You're messy.Like, I'm gonna judge you right
now. And a person who's aware ofthe process would say, well, I'm
in the middle of doing thething. You know, potters get
dirty.
Dancers get sweaty. You know,makeup artists get powder on,
you know, their their shirts arecovered in makeup. That's how

(06:45):
it, you know, no one judgesthat. So honoring that process,
I think, is part of what we needto do as a society and part of
what we do in men's work becausewe're allowed to be a little
messy. We're allowed to be atthat point where we start to
shake or tremble, and it isn't ajudgment of you're doing it

(07:05):
wrong.
It's a judgment of you're stilldoing it. Like or it's a it's a
celebration of you're stilldoing it.

Eric Bomyea (07:10):
Yeah. There's there's a couple things that I
I'm hearing when I hear you talkabout that. There's one, there's
a there's a physicality orthere's a physical rightness,
wrongness of, like, oh, if wewant something to be good, then
it has to be clean. Right? So,like, if if somebody is messy,
they're not good.
They're not right. There'ssomething they are messy, not
clean. So in that, there is ajudgment. Right? And what does

(07:32):
messiness, what does sloppiness,what does that invoke?
So that's one part of it. Andthen the other part of it is
kind of this this being okaywith being in the process and
not getting something right. Butin pursuit of many things, the
end goal may be a right thing ora right way to do something. So,

(07:53):
like, I I have baked a lot, andso there is a pursuit of, like,
getting a recipe right. Like,having followed the correct
steps.
And I can imagine in dance,there are certain dance types
that it's like getting the movesright Mhmm. Technically. Sure.
Right? Yeah.
Yeah. And so I think that'swhere sometimes there is a lot
of, like, judgment built intothings is because we're we have

(08:15):
so many, like, analytical thingsin our lives of, like, this is
how you do things.

Timothy Bish (08:21):
I'm gonna just jump. I was fortunate enough to
be watching the New York CityBallet. I can't remember how
long ago this was at LincolnCenter. And Wendy Whelan was,
doing this contemporary balletpiece with, I think, seven other
unbelievably talented dancers.And they were going for it, and
I I would describe it in greaterdetail.
But if you don't know dance, youknow anyway, going for it, going

(08:43):
for it. And so she was too, andshe is a superstar, by the way.
If you don't know Wendy Wayland,I think it's called Wounded
Creature. Watch her documentary.Unbelievable.
Anyway, she fell. She was goingfor it so hard that she slipped
off her point point shoe andfell down for a second, jumped
right back up, kept going, andit almost made it better. It

(09:07):
kind of reminded us, oh, thesepeople are at the edge. That is,
like, that is the intensity ofwhat they're doing. And I think
it's easier sometimes again.
I'm gonna talk about theOlympics. We talk about the
gymnasts and Simone Biles andwhatnot. We know that they're at
their edge. They make a mistake.We can be disappointed, but we
don't we don't, like, judge it.

(09:29):
And it was that moment of, oh,you fell down,

Eric Bomyea (09:32):
but it's okay. I would say probably most people
aren't gonna judge it. They'regonna see the humanity, but
there might be a critic in thecrowd, somebody who is not not
necessarily, like, the job ofcritic, but there could be
somebody who is very criticalthat could say, like, oh, she
messed up. She's not good.

Timothy Bish (09:49):
Totally. I, I Right? Like I mean, we're
talking about Wendy Whelan. Sobut, yes, like yeah. No.
Yeah. You're absolutely right. Ithink that there and I think
that that sort of archetype ofcritic, that critical person has
come from having beencriticized. And so you're kind
of constantly on the lookoutfor, moments and and situations

(10:13):
in which you can be criticized.It's so uncomfortable, And then
you just become highly attunedto it.
For you know, I have a speechimpediment. I, it's been a thing
I've had my whole life, and sowhen another person has one I
pick up on it almostimmediately. It's just because
it's a thing I've paid attentionto. So I think that's an that's

(10:37):
prevalent in our society, and itisn't really serving us because
in this example, the dance piecewas amazing. I actually thought
as a dancer it made it moreexciting because I understood
how much they were doing.
But there are people who arethere's a there's the way or not

(10:58):
the way. Right.

Eric Bomyea (10:58):
But and then also, like, if I don't have the,
awareness, if I don't have thethe studiedness of seeing, like,
if Wendy is the first dancerI've ever seen. Mhmm. Right?
Like, I don't know that, like,she's that excellent. I really
don't.

Timothy Bish (11:13):
I don't I don't have nothing to concern to.

Eric Bomyea (11:15):
When I see if I see her fall, like, she just fell.
Right? And that that to me,like, is the difference of,
like, I could notice that shefell observation versus she
fell, she's a bad dancerjudgment.

Timothy Bish (11:25):
So I wanna go into that because we talked about
that in circle. You did such agreat job. But before we do
that, it's so prevalent, thisidea recently, during the last
Olympics, there was a sort ofjoke going around about, having
one average person in everyOlympic final. Because you know

(11:47):
you like you look at like theseeight swimmers and you're like,
oh, that guy in lane six isfalling behind, and the idea
was, oh, but if you put aregular person in there, you'd
still realize they're all so sogood. Mhmm.
And this is like fractions ofexcellence that we're really
looking at. But we have thatcritical like, oh, you you just

(12:07):
lost by a lot. You're like,well, there's 35 people that
didn't even make it into thefinal, and there are hundreds
and thousands of people whonever even made it to the
Olympics.

Eric Bomyea (12:17):
I think this invites in a relative of
judgment, which is comparison,which I think can just be can be
valuable. So I think all thatwe're talking about with
judgment and comparison and allthis stuff, like, these are
natural human tendencies. We gothrough the world and have
evolved through the world torecognize, oh, something may be
bigger than I am. Right? Somaybe I have to, like like, take

(12:39):
that awareness and do somethingwith it.
Mhmm. Right? I think it's whenwe say that, like, bigger is
better. Yeah. Right?
That's when that that judgmentgets a little bit tricky and
critical. So I would say, like,even in the swimming situation,
the swimming example, like, whywhy are we saying that? Like,
oh, if you swim fast, you'regood. Right? It's it's in

(13:01):
pursuit of excellence of, like,striving for some sort of end
goal, right, versus, like, canwe be a little bit more, like
like, sterile about it maybe andsay, like, that person swam
however many meters in thisamount of time.
And in comparison to the rest incomparison to the average, you

(13:23):
know, pace of a swimmer, thatperson is x longer. That's not
as sexy to say. You'd rathersay, they're the fucking best.
Right? They're the best.
Look look how good they are.

Timothy Bish (13:33):
That is not a sexy

Eric Bomyea (13:34):
It's not a sexy way to say it. Right? But then
that's kind of how, like like

Timothy Bish (13:39):
Yeah. It's so I think when we think about it in
our daily lives, that's a greatpractice to start recognizing
when we are putting values onthings. Is this better or worse,
stronger or weaker, like, thosesorts of things, especially if
they don't serve us. And then Ithink there are moments where,
okay, you're in the Olympics.Everyone wants to do their very

(14:00):
best.
Just go for the gold. I get thatwe are Best being defined as.
Right?

Eric Bomyea (14:05):
Like Right.

Timothy Bish (14:06):
Right. Right. But, you know, so we can we can wrap
our head around there is ashared goal. In the in an
Olympic final, there is a sharedgoal.

Eric Bomyea (14:14):
Yeah.

Timothy Bish (14:16):
And could we bring to that an appreciation for how
much unbelievable talent thereis? I think that's the missing
piece. Oh, they won the gold,they won the silver, they won
the bronze. That's amazing.Right?
Like, you get on the podium, youhave that minute moment, but
everyone else who was even inthe building as a competitor is,

(14:42):
like, at the top point 2% oftheir, you know Sport.

Eric Bomyea (14:47):
Right. Minowie, I think of, like, even drag race
because this could be somesimilar. Right? Like Okay.

Timothy Bish (14:51):
This is a great race. Like, if

Eric Bomyea (14:53):
we think about the the current season, right, and,
like, it's it's completelystacked with talent. Right? We
still look at those bottomqueens like like, at least I do.
Like, I judge them so quickly.I'm like, ugh.
How did you even get on theshow? Right? Like, oh, that's
what you brought. That's whatyou did. And I'm like, I have to
catch myself all the time.
I'm like, they made it throughan intensive casting process.

(15:15):
They had to put themselves outthere. They had to go through
the interviews. They had to dothe thing. And they have been
deemed the best drag queens inAmerica to compete in this
current season.
Mhmm. And I'm like, I forgetthat. Right? Because I'm just
looking at them, like, on thesurface. And so I think that's a
lot of what maybe judgment is.
Judgment is very surface level.Right? It's like a quick

(15:36):
immediate reaction. It's that,like, I'm comparing it to
something, and in my judgment,in my bias, I am saying it is
good, bad, you know, right orwrong.

Timothy Bish (15:47):
Yeah. And we've we've seen on a lot of reality
TV shows, contestants will sayall the time, it's not as easy
as it looks. Yeah. And, youknow, with Drag Race as the
example, you think they aregiven a list of possible
categories. There's a lot ofcontext they don't have.

(16:08):
So

Eric Bomyea (16:09):
And a lot of time did you not have a lot of time
either?

Timothy Bish (16:11):
Right. And then you think, okay. Well, I show up
with what I thought was gonna bethe best. Now in context, it
isn't really the best. Do I havethe time or the skill set to
take what I thought was gonnawork and make it what it is
gonna work?
Oftentimes, no, I have to I haveto wear what I brought. And and
then we can all sit at home onour couch or in the local bar.

(16:32):
And judging. It's so easy. Thebond bond.
You're like, yeah, I would havedone it differently. Well, with
all this context

Eric Bomyea (16:38):
I'm Kathy Siegel sitting on the couch for Married

Timothy Bish (16:40):
and Children just Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well, this
is why judgment is so, I thinkthat judgment is really baked in
to our culture, and so it willcome kind of easily. And
everyone's been judged, andeveryone's watched people

(17:01):
judging, so the compassion justtakes a lot more work.
The the pausing for a moment ofconsideration is a lot harder.
And then final thing I would sayis I think in our culture at
least, it feels like there'sthis value to it would it would

(17:22):
it's easier and better to thinksomething's bad than it is to
think it's good. Mhmm. So Idon't know what the word is for
that, but this idea of, like,ugh, that's you know, that that
movie wasn't, you know, thatpiece of art, you know, being
critical. It almost feels alittle bit like, well, I'm I'm
trying to put myself up in thisposition as the the connoisseur

(17:44):
of, like, the highest form ofwhatever I'm looking at.
And so even if I don't knowanything about the art, if I
pretend to be like, ugh, it's ait's fine, then then you're
gonna perceive me to be a personwho's above it. And I think that
does a real disservice because alot of times, you're like, you
don't even know what you'retalking about.

Eric Bomyea (18:01):
But, like, if somebody can if somebody can if
somebody can convince you thatthey're an expert, then they
can't be wrong. Right? Theycan't have that vulnerability.
They can't have that, like, likeI I've noticed this sometimes
that when when people are put onthe spot, if they don't know the
answer, I've seen this so manytimes in corporate America. If
somebody doesn't know the answerand they don't have the

(18:22):
humility, they will just sitthere on the spot and start
making shit up.
Yeah. Right? Because they arethey I've attached themselves so
much to being an expert, andthey've, like, they're like, oh,
crap. Like, if I don't get thisright, right, if I don't say the
right thing right now, then,like, I might lose my job. I
might get a demotion or somebodymight get a promotion over me.
Like, all these things thatcould happen to somebody, right,

(18:44):
instead of saying, like, I don'thave the answer to that right
now, but I'll get back to you.

Timothy Bish (18:47):
Well, that was built into my acupuncture
education. We were trained froma very early point in the
program, never tell a patientsomething you don't know. And
there's a real freedom in thatto say, oh, I I know a lot of
stuff, and I can offer you whatI know. Well, I actually don't
know that. I'll look for it.

(19:07):
I'll try to figure it out. Or Imight even know that I'll I'll
never be able to know it, orit's not my job to know it, and
someone else should know it. AndI'll refer you to the person who
you should be speaking to. But,yeah, this, I don't know has I
don't know has a lot of powerbecause this idea that we're
supposed to know everything iscrazy. Think about think about

(19:30):
the Internet and all the youknow, like like there's no way
that you know everything abouteverything.
It just it does it it isimpossible, and there's
something really trustworthywhen, oh, I, like, I know a lot
about yoga, and I know a lotabout, you know, some other
things, but there's a lot ofstuff I don't know about. I

(19:51):
think we can all relate to that.

Eric Bomyea (19:52):
Absolutely. And, like, there's also one of the
practices that I had or one ofthe sits that I had at a recent
meditation retreat was aroundthis concept of, like, the
layers of I don't know. And Ihadn't ever clicked the
confidence that you can feelfrom saying, okay. Well, if I'm
floating through space, then Idon't know something. I'm like,

(20:13):
oh, well, like, that could beterrifying.
But then I can hold on tosomething. Is that, like, I do
know. I do know that I don'tknow. And I was like, that
little, like, simplerealization, I was like,

Timothy Bish (20:24):
woah.

Eric Bomyea (20:24):
There's so much power in that. Right? And, like,
I think that bringing it back tojudgment is like, you know,
like, instead of judging thingsso quickly, like, I can, you
know, start to admit when Imight not know something or I
might not be fully confidentabout something, and I might
not, like, understand, like,something completely. And
instead of it being my initialreaction, right, like, where in

(20:48):
the opener, I talked about,like, you know, we talk about
presence and being the witness.Right?
Like, I can get pulled out ofbeing the witness of observing
what's in front of me if I judgeit. I'm judging it super
quickly. And I can pull myselfback by saying, like, oh, well,
okay. I went to that point ofjudgment because I didn't know
something. And then I was or Iwasn't familiar with something

(21:09):
or someone, and so I judgedthem.
Mhmm. And now I'm pulling myselfback, and I'm gonna say, like,
okay, like, now can I, like, setthat judgment aside and actually
observe what's in front of meand then start to, like, bring
in a little bit more curiosityaround it?

Timothy Bish (21:23):
Yeah. This is bringing up for me the the
teaching of emptiness, right,and, how the content of our mind
and our perspectives and ourperceptions are projected onto
everything, and just bringing alittle bit of awareness to that,

(21:44):
I think, can help us to pauseinto I'm gonna think it's good
or bad, right or wrong, valuableor not valuable, and instead let
me just have a minute withwhatever it is and then decide
from there. Well, what like, howdo I wanna engage or not engage

(22:05):
with whatever? Yeah.

Eric Bomyea (22:06):
I think there's there's so many examples. Like,
you you talked about, like,good, bad, like, right, wrong. I
think there's also, like, youknow, there's so many layers to
to judgment. There's so manydifferent ways that we can judge
things. Like, I even think of,like, if there's a couple,
right, and, like, one person isa little bit more, like, wanting

(22:27):
of attention than the other,then one case, that person could
be needy.
And on the other case, like, ifthat person isn't willing to,
like, give that attention, theycould be aloof. Right? And just
how quickly we are to, like,label, to classify, to
categorize, and, like, evenunder that, if we, like, think
of neediness or aloofness, like,we've now said, oh, there's a

(22:48):
right way to be.

Timothy Bish (22:49):
But this all also has a standard. Right? So in the
example that you just gave,which I really appreciate, each
of them comes from theperspective. So like, you know,
you talked about like the needyperson, but that person might be
judged as needy from theperspective of someone who
doesn't want to give as much asthat person is looking to have,

(23:09):
right, or to take or to youknow, or asking for, right? The
the person who is judged forbeing aloof, they're probably
judged from the perspective of aperson who is wanting more from
them.
So, oh, you're not giving me allthat I want. You are aloof. Now

(23:29):
is that true? You know, it'shard to say. You know, it's not
that there's anything wrong withthat evaluation, but is it
actually true?
Like what is the fact there and,is jumping to a you are this or
you are that helping you orwhomever you've just labeled?

Eric Bomyea (23:52):
I think this is where, like, I've I've studied
nonviolent communication alittle bit, and this is the
foundation of it. It's like, canwe be aware of when we're
bringing in the judgment andthen start to say, like, okay.
Like, now let me make anobservation of it and and and
saying, okay. Like, if mymoralistic judgment right now is
that my partner is aloof or isneedy, Can I now classify into

(24:16):
an observation of, like, hey, mylove? Like, you know, I'm I'm
hoping that, like, I would liketo spend, you know, an hour with
you today.
Right? And just, like, kind ofstarting to quantify and saying
like, okay. The last time Iasked for this, I didn't get it.
Right? And so now we start to,like, look at what it is that we

(24:36):
might be needing.
Because what judgment does is itit focuses so much on the what
is what or who is who ratherthan what's alive inside of us.
Right? It's very

Timothy Bish (24:48):
What is happening?

Eric Bomyea (24:49):
Yeah. So this goes

Timothy Bish (24:51):
I love that example. I am also curious. Is
that how you talk? Do you say,hey, my love? Or what did you
say?

Eric Bomyea (24:56):
Hey, my love. Yeah.

Timothy Bish (24:59):
This is making me think about my yoga mentor,
Nirani, who I've mentionednumerous times and on this
podcast. I love you, Nirani.

Eric Bomyea (25:07):
I'm on the show.

Timothy Bish (25:08):
Pardon? Oh, come on the show. Nirani, come on the
show, please. We want you here.An incredible woman, yogi and
Buddhist, and she said one ofthe thing we should never
complain about the weatherbecause it's just kind of
railing against what ishappening.
And based on what you're saying,instead of being like, oh, it's

(25:29):
the rain is bad. The rain isgood. You know, the snow,
whatever the thing is, just, oh,it's raining. And because it's
raining, I should get anumbrella or a raincoat or, you
know, take the car, not my bike,whatever the thing, you know.
And there's a whole differentfeeling around the approach to I

(25:53):
need to get a different jacketthan can you believe that this
is happening to me.
Yeah. You know, and and there'sa freedom in, well, it's raining
and it rains. And then if we goto the emptiness thing, there'd
be sometimes rain is good. Ifyou're in LA right now, rain is
good. Right?
So so the the the value canchange based on context

Eric Bomyea (26:14):
and perspective. Absolutely. I think that, like,
there can be a preference.Right? Like, I can prefer

Timothy Bish (26:20):
that Not wetness? Not wetness. Yeah. I prefer not
wetness, generally speaking.Generally like that, that is a
preference.
Right?

Eric Bomyea (26:28):
But it's like, can I communicate that preference?
Yeah. Rather than assigning ajudgment to something.

Timothy Bish (26:35):
Right. So it sounds like we're getting, like,
this idea that judgment, a lotof times, can be an attachment
to our preference. So when Ithink of situation x, I think it
should happen this way, and thenif it doesn't happen that way, I
assign a value to it. And thenthe the question really becomes,

(26:58):
is that in service to us in anyway? Does that make us happier?
Does it make us more productive,more relaxed, more engaging,
more authentic? Whatever thething is we're trying to be. And
I would argue that I can't thinkof a time when it does. When I
think, oh, when I said that thatperson was, a bad person, that
made me have a better day. Ican't I can't imagine I I don't

(27:20):
remember one time in my lifewhere that's been the truth for
me.

Eric Bomyea (27:23):
I think there can be an honor in, like, you know,
connecting to what it is youvalue in this life. So let's go
back to the couple example. Ifperson a values more connection,
more quality time, more physicaltouch, Right? And person b
doesn't share those same values.They have a value misalignment.

Timothy Bish (27:43):
Mhmm.

Eric Bomyea (27:44):
Right? And so instead of bringing in the
moralistic judgment of aloofnessor neediness, have a
conversation based on needs,right, and based off of core
values and what's important tous. And then making a decision
that, like, okay. If I hadlabeled that that person bad,
needy, or aloof, right, like,maybe my action moving forward,

(28:05):
if I can't get my needs metthrough this person, maybe my
choice is I have to go myseparate ways, right? Like, so
the badness of that judgment ofsomething being bad, like, can
be a signal.
Right? To, like, step back, beaware of it, and then make
decisions from there just likerain.

Timothy Bish (28:24):
Right.

Eric Bomyea (28:24):
So I'm gonna make a decision to, like, put on a
jacket or grab an umbrella.

Timothy Bish (28:28):
Right. So it it feels like from that place, we
have two options. One is I canbreak up with you because you're
an asshole.

Eric Bomyea (28:35):
Judgment. Judgment.

Timothy Bish (28:36):
Right. Or I can break up with you because we
don't have shared values and myneeds aren't being met.

Eric Bomyea (28:42):
That's correct.

Timothy Bish (28:42):
And I don't need you to be the villain, and I
don't need to be the villain.There doesn't have to be there
doesn't have to be a right or awrong or a good or bad. It can
just be what is. I really needthis. You don't need that.
You don't like you needsomething else. I've seen that a
lot that, you know, there's alot of relationship stuff, where

(29:06):
it's easy to fall into that.It's also easy because, oh, if I
have emotions of feeling hurt,then saying goodbye to something
might be easier if I'm mad atit. If I if I decide that it's
bad, may maybe it makes iteasier. But I think there's more
power in a recognition.

(29:27):
You have a set of needs, and sodo I, and now they are not in
alignment. Is it more powerfulfor us to to move in the
direction of what where we canfind those things?

Eric Bomyea (29:40):
It makes it much less about, like, you know, what
is what rather than what ishappening. Right. Like

Timothy Bish (29:49):
So what's happening is a relationship
where the two people aren'thaving their needs met, and that
does not mean that any of thosepeople in that relationship are
bad or failing or, you know, itdoesn't mean that people can't
be bad or failing inrelationships. It just means
that it doesn't always have tobe that. It can be

Eric Bomyea (30:07):
And subjectively speaking, right, like what that
might mean for a person basedoff of what they value.

Timothy Bish (30:11):
Exactly. Right. Right. Well, I mean, I think we
could say yeah.

Eric Bomyea (30:16):
I think there are some things. There are some
values that, like, many peopleshare. Right? There are there
are values around, like, how wetreat one another. Mhmm.
Right? And that is where amoralistic judgment of, like, if
you don't treat people the waythat we think that we all are
valuing how we think we shouldtreat people, then that is where
badness can come from. That'swhere villain

Timothy Bish (30:38):
villainry? Villain Villainess. Villainessness.
Villainessness. Villainessness.
Villill vilification? I don'tknow. Is

Eric Bomyea (30:54):
that vilification?

Timothy Bish (30:54):
Vilification. There we go. That's where

Eric Bomyea (30:57):
the vilification of something can come from. Right?

Timothy Bish (31:00):
Someone please recommend us a podcast about
words and grammar. Yeah. Yeah.Yeah. I mean, right.
Grammarly, do

Eric Bomyea (31:08):
you wanna sponsor this podcast?

Timothy Bish (31:11):
Word of the day, vilification. It might be a real
word.

Eric Bomyea (31:14):
I'm gonna make it a real word.

Timothy Bish (31:15):
I mean, it is right now.

Eric Bomyea (31:17):
I'm gonna incorporate it into the episode
description.

Timothy Bish (31:20):
Yeah, so I hear what you're saying, and so I
think when we think aboutjudgment and men's work, we have
to realize that we have a lot ofjudgments about other people,
and we've talked about that alot, but we also judge
ourselves. And the practices andthe and the approach of men's

(31:43):
work, you know, the physicalpractices, the breath, the
inquiry, the conversations arean attempt to show up as we are,
and as we are isn't perfect andsort of recognizing that. And so
when we talk about our edges,when we talk about our strong
suits and our weaknesses, ourtriggers, our shadows, all these

(32:08):
things, each time we kind of getinto that material, we allow
ourselves an opportunity torecognize what is without
without judging it or practicingtrying not to judge it. So when
we think about our shadow,shadow, loosely defined as parts
of ourselves that we are, like,unwilling to look at in

(32:30):
ourselves or or trying to hidefrom ourselves or from other
people, they often look likethings we might describe as bad,
but part of the work is to notstart at that place and rather,
oh, there there's a there's anangry part of me.

(32:50):
Like, what like what were youhere to do angry part? And kind
of investigated from that.Chances are that angry part of
you was there to protect you.Well, chances are most of your
shadow is there to protect youin some way or the other. And,
the practice of trying to meetit without being your bad.

(33:11):
The reason we the reason itbecomes a shadow, the reason we
shove it away is because we'velabeled it as not good or or or
not welcomed or unacceptable toour community or, you know.

Eric Bomyea (33:23):
I think a big part of the practice is, again, like
like, can we notice it withoutgetting fully swept up into it?
Right? Like, can I can I beaware of where I might be
falling into that rather thanfully getting swept into it and
getting pulled out of mygroundedness? And I think that
when I'm in practice and I'mstarting to have a lot of those

(33:45):
those judgments, it pulls mecompletely out of being present.
I'm no longer present.
I'm ruminating in the past orfuture casting. Right? But I'm
definitely not present. Can you

Timothy Bish (33:54):
give us an example? Like, you're in you're
in the middle of

Eric Bomyea (33:58):
some practice and something. Can you? Yeah. So I
would say even in, like,synchronized breath practices,
like, it can it can happen veryquickly because I'm like, oh, I
I'm not inhaling as big as thatother person. And so I'm like,
should I be inhaling bigger?
Like, are my lungs not ascapable as that person's? Am I

(34:19):
doing this the right way? I'mnot vocalizing as much as that
person. Or in some cases, like,oh, am I vocalizing too much? Is
my breath too big?
Is my is my breath is biggerthan that person? Oh, like, am I
doing it wrong? Am I going toomuch? Am I too much right now?
Right?
Like, all these things that willtake me away from my practice.

Timothy Bish (34:38):
So I'll just I'm gonna jump on this because
partner practice where we dosome eye gazing and synchronize
our breath, my teacher, ourteacher, Amir Khalighi, will
sometimes say, these are not hisexact words. I don't wanna get
it wrong, but he'll he'llsometimes say the the person
with the bigger breath will beholding the masculine pole. You

(35:00):
know, so talking about

Eric Bomyea (35:01):
Oh, you

Timothy Bish (35:01):
So yeah. So so so this polarity idea, there's
nothing wrong with there'snothing wrong with what he said.
But I remember thinking, like,the first few times I heard it,
then I started sensing aroundthe room, oh well now everyone's
trying to have the biggestbreath because no one wants to
have be holding the femininepull because we have a judgment
about what the feminine pullmeans as a man in this world and

(35:25):
this is among men who are doingconscious men's work, right? So,
oh, still deep down there's ajudgment to be feminine as a man
is I'm gonna say bad but I'msure that we come up with a
bunch of different words, youknow, and therefore I'm gonna
deepen my breath to try to makeit bigger than yours so that I'm
holding the masculine so thatyou're holding the feminine and
I don't think you're bad forholding the feminine, I just

(35:46):
know that I can't. And that tome is sort of fascinating
because that's how that's howdeeply woven it is.
Instead of, well, someone'sgotta be the feminine pull.
Like, when you think aboutmagnets, you're like, if you
want those two things to pulltogether, the one's gotta be
plus and one's gotta be minus.Like, we're not judging the
minus. You know what I'm talkingabout with, like, yeah. Yeah.

(36:07):
Yeah. Positive positivenegative. We're not we're not
judging it. It's like withoutit, there is no connection. And
yet, from our perspective, well,I'm like, my my breath is
bigger.
Like, I'm holding the masculinepole, you know? And you're like,
okay. Okay. Easy, everybody.

Eric Bomyea (36:24):
The amount of times that I've been in that exact
moment,

Timothy Bish (36:28):
and I've been like,

Eric Bomyea (36:30):
and this this this even goes into some, like, some
some gay programming for myself.

Timothy Bish (36:35):
I was just supposed to bring it up.

Eric Bomyea (36:36):
Yeah. Like like bottom shaming or, like, the
shame that I feel sometimes if Ibottom. Right? Is that like like
I'm like, I'm not gonna be thebottom. Like, I can get very,
like, defensive very quickly.

Timothy Bish (36:47):
So this is the crazy thing for me about this,
and we have to, like, unpack it,you know, for for everyone, but
for our community. If you thinkabout two straight couples, man
and a woman. Right? A man and awoman. And there are two of
them.
So a man and a woman and a manand a woman. And we say couple
A, their favorite sexualposition is missionary and

(37:07):
couple B likes, you know,cowgirl or whatever, you know. I
do not immediately jump to like,well this means this about this
couple and that means that aboutthem. Right? But in our
community, we get to this, oh,you're the receptive partner and
that immediately means that youare submissive, weak, you know,

(37:32):
the one who's, out of controland you're like, what?
It's crazy. It's this weirdperception. It doesn't serve us
at all. It's a little bit likesome people like getting neck
massages and some people don't.Yeah.

Eric Bomyea (37:47):
What does

Timothy Bish (37:47):
that mean about you? It doesn't mean anything
about you except you like or youdislike a neck massage.

Eric Bomyea (37:51):
Right. But I think if we bring it to the breath
practice of, like, those men inthat space, myself included,
Like, as soon as you tell mewhoever has the biggest breath
is holding the masculine pull,I'm like, well, I'm not gonna be
the feminine partner.

Timothy Bish (38:02):
Well, and I'm I'm

Eric Bomyea (38:02):
not gonna be the feminine partner because being
feminine is bad.

Timothy Bish (38:05):
Well, well, well and I would say that I have felt
and so maybe there's a slice ofthis with you too, that it's
like well as one of the fewqueer people in this space, I
definitely can't be the femininepartner right now because you
all expect me to be. Even thoughI don't know that to be true,
it's like and I've I've actuallyshared about this in a, in a in
a really powerful circle. Peoplehave mentioned this later, but I

(38:27):
shared something along thoselines where I'm like, I'm like I
said to the the whole group ofstraight men where I'm like, I
don't think about the sex youhave. I don't think about it. I
don't think about your favoriteposition or, like, what you're
into.
I'm like, but I think you thinkI think about the sex you have.

(38:48):
And then I carry that with me,because they like to
hypersexualize queer people andso that was the thing I had to
start working through becauseI'm like, oh, I think you
believe that I'm sexualizingyou. I'm not sexualizing you,
but you think I am. And now I'mgonna compensate so that you're
certain I'm not sexualizing you,Which meant at one point, this,

(39:08):
man in in the in the work, wewere at a retreat center and he
came up and he put his armaround me. I was so
uncomfortable.
I was so uncomfortable in myphysical body in that moment,
not because I didn't want hisarm around me or I I feared a
closeness with him. It wasbecause I didn't know what he
thought I thought about it. Andthen I was like, if he thinks

(39:31):
that I'm in this moment, like,sexually, like, aroused and, you
know, in my feminine whatever,that I was like, that that makes
me uncomfortable. And so I endedup, like, moving out of it. It's
a thing we have

Eric Bomyea (39:44):
to work on. Mhmm. There's a lot of judgment to
unpack there.

Timothy Bish (39:48):
Well, this is the right episode.

Eric Bomyea (39:49):
Yeah. I mean, like, on a lot of these sides, right?
Like, the idea that aheterosexual person is thinking
about homosexual or queer sex,they may be judging it because
they don't know. There's maybethere is a curiosity of, like,

(40:12):
that's where their brain goesto, and now they're they're
judging it. Because I know I'veI did that for a long time
before I, like, like, trulyunderstood my sexuality.
Like, I was there. I was, like,I was judging it too because I
was like, I just didn't know.Mhmm. I didn't know, like, like,
how gay worked. Okay.
Right? And so, like, I did I didhave a lot of judgment around

(40:35):
it. And I had a lot of, like,also curiosity, and that would
be a lot of the things that Ifocused on. Like, gay wasn't
necessarily a lifestyle. Gay wasa, like, a a sexual thing.
It was a behavior. It's abehavior. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
So, like, I think that wassomething that I had to, like,
come to terms with over time andunderstand a little bit more
about of for myself, of myself.

Timothy Bish (40:55):
Well, in the in this conversation, yes, it's
important for me to start tothink about, what's actually
happening versus like what Ithink might be happening, but
we're living in a moment where,we we have plenty of proof that
people are jumping toconclusions about queer people
and how they are and whatthey're doing. I mean, this

(41:16):
entire conversation about, transpeople in bathrooms is born of
this I'm jumping to conclusionsabout who you are and what
you're doing. Right? You and Iboth know that it's an absurd
thing. There isn't there isn'tany trans people are not in
bathrooms doing terrible things.
Right? It but it's thatassumption and I think so so as

(41:39):
a queer person to walk into aspace and wonder or be afraid
that that is being projectedonto you shouldn't be surprising
because it has been projectedonto us so many times, and it
and it's continuing to happen.Right? Does that make sense?

Eric Bomyea (41:54):
It does, and I think that's where that
internalized shame comes fromsometimes for myself of, like,
it's been projected onto me sooften, you know, growing up
that, like, it is really hardfor me to, like, break apart
from it. Mhmm. And that is a bigpart of my, like, therapy work,
my own personal practices is,like, can I start to untether
from these these, like, shamesthat were given to me at some

(42:19):
point along the road?

Timothy Bish (42:21):
And I would you would you agree with me in
saying that one step, maybe oneof the early steps I almost said
step one,

Eric Bomyea (42:27):
but it may not be step one. Go down there.

Timothy Bish (42:29):
This is not officially step one, but is to
is to start to try to be aware,to become aware of moments when
it is operating or wanting tooperate. Oh, there there was an
indication that I might bedescribed or perceived as being
feminine, and I had a feelingabout that. And just

(42:49):
recognizing, oh, I see you. Isee that thing.

Eric Bomyea (42:52):
Mhmm.

Timothy Bish (42:53):
I just wanna say because there's this, you know,
masculine feminine. I was raisedby women, and I also love animal
nature documentaries. Thefeminine is fucking awesome. And
now any any comparison to theincredible feminine beings that

(43:15):
exist in my life to me is acompliment. But there was a time
when that when that comparisonmeant danger.
And so we have to we have to dothe work to start to unpack that
because, oh, well, when I was inmiddle school, when I was such a
small person, the comparison tome being feminine meant, like,

(43:35):
maybe a body check, a tackle, apunch, or whatever was just
around the corner. You know? Sothese things start to shift. So
it's a tricky so if you're stillstruggling it with it as as I
think I am and we all do, you'renot alone Yeah. Because safety
first.

Eric Bomyea (43:55):
I mean, as much as I I love, like, like queer
interactions, especially here inProvincetown of like being able
to like call each other ma'amand girl and like all these
things. Oh, cool. Like, there isa playfulness that comes with

(44:15):
it, but, like, it still pricklesme. Right? Like, when somebody
comes up and says, girl, I'mlike, like, it but it's gotten
like, I understand now whereit's coming from.
Sure. But there's still a partof me just based off of years
and years and years ofconditioning that, like, it
still it still has that littlebite to it. You know? And even

(44:37):
though I love to to do it withmy friends and be like, ma'am,
really? Right?
Like, it's still like, I knowthat it can have that, like, a
little bit to it.

Timothy Bish (44:44):
It's funny. I was, in I was in a bar. This was, I
don't know, a few years ago,talking to someone, and I kept
using I was talking to a gayman. We were in a gay bar. I you
know, two gay men in a gay barhaving a conversation.
And I It

Eric Bomyea (45:00):
started with a really good joke right there.

Timothy Bish (45:02):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And, I was speaking aboutsomething probably something
along these lines, and I keptusing the word queer. And he
finally admitted he's like, I'mI'm having trouble with your
continued use of that word. Isaid, oh, okay. Well, you know,
tell me about that. And so heexplained that it had been

(45:25):
weaponized against him so muchthat he it was he he couldn't
identify as queer, and thehearing of it, especially in the
casual way that I was saying it,was very uncomfortable probably
because it was very new.
I explained to him that I nowuse the word queer because I
want to signal that everybodyunder the umbrella of queer,

(45:49):
which is all LGBTQIA two s plus,you know, people are safe with
me. So I'm a gay man, but I usethe word queer because I think
it it serves that purpose.Brings more people in, but

Eric Bomyea (46:05):
it doesn't stop it from being riddled with
judgment. Right?

Timothy Bish (46:09):
Right. And then this idea that so then I might
use the word queer or I mightuse the word like, I'm like,
yes, mama, or whatever word, youknow, as ways of reclaiming this
sort of shared experience. Ithink a lot of queer people have
had these sorts of things, youknow, and words weaponized
against them. And so then, youknow, if you're a gay man or a

(46:32):
trans person or a lesbian, likelike, the words weaponized
against you may be a littledifferent, but we've probably
all had some version of thatexperience.

Eric Bomyea (46:41):
Absolutely. And I think that's where it's like
just bringing online thecuriosity of, like, like, is
this something that is is this alabel that is something that's
bringing up a reaction in me?And can I then bring online my
awareness again to pull backfrom my reaction and and sit
with what is? Yeah. That's

Timothy Bish (47:05):
Say that one more time because that feels like if
if you're listening to thepodcast right now and you're
like, okay. Well, how do I startto work with my judgment and so
that I can create the spacebetween, like, the emotional
reaction and, like, theobjective what is, and this
feels like one way they could doit. So would you say that one
more time? Like, that process?So for me, a

Eric Bomyea (47:28):
lot of judgment manifests itself in my body as
almost like a prickly reaction.I like somebody called me like a
cat the other day. Like, that ismy, like, my signal. That is my
somatic bodily signal. When Istart to, like, tense up, when I
start to, like, when the quillson my back start to get or the
hair on the back of my neckstarts to get like that, then I

(47:51):
know that's my trigger.
And that's my opportunity tosay, like, okay. Like, what has
just triggered me about this? Isit that, oh, it's this use of
the word queer, and it'sbringing me back to, middle
school where I was being labeledas a queer, as a bad thing, and
now I am reacting to it. And sonow from my reaction, okay, the

(48:12):
awareness, the reaction isconnected to the bodily
sensation of the, then I canstart to pull back a little bit
and and say, okay. Let me try tofind out, like, what is
happening here Mhmm.
And starting to separate, like,my reaction from what is.

Timothy Bish (48:25):
So I'm gonna pause you there. So this is this is
really great. So the first thingI heard was that you had, a
physical somatic experience thatyou became aware of. So step
one, become aware of yourphysical sensations and like
awarenesses in your own feltsense. This is why embodiment is
important.
This is why we practice so thatwe can know that's coming up.
So, that's an important step oneand a layered step one because

(48:49):
people are gonna have differentabilities to do that based on,
if they've what their practiceis or whatnot. But so once you
have that that physicalsensation, that felt sense, that
somatic, signal is sent to you,sounds like you then became
aware of it and paused. And thenin that moment of pause, you

(49:10):
then shine the light of yourcurious awareness onto what is
happening. So if we had, like, athree step process, it was like
it was notice the physicalsensation, pause, shine my light
of awareness, and become curiousabout what just happened.

Eric Bomyea (49:27):
This is where I believe observation can be so
helpful. And so just just takingand breaking apart a judgment
and saying, like, okay. Like,instead of saying, that person
is lazy, Can I bring in anawareness of, like, that person
has, from what I've seen, fromwhat I've witnessed, from what

(49:50):
I've observed, that person didnot complete this task when they
said they were going to completethis task by? So that's the
observation. My judgment is thatperson's lazy.

Timothy Bish (50:04):
Mhmm.

Eric Bomyea (50:04):
Right? So, like, that's kind of that step work of
saying, like, okay. Reaction orbodily sensation, something just
came up. Okay. Now I'm going topause, and now I'm going to look
at it.
And then from there, start to toseparate it out a little bit.

Timothy Bish (50:18):
So if we use the other example of someone calling
you girl or mama or whatever,You have a physical reaction,
you pause, you notice that youwere triggered by that, and then
you start to become like, wellwhat what happened? Oh, they
called me this word. I I have afeeling or a previous experience

(50:38):
of this word, and that makes mefeel unsafe or spotlit or, you
know, whatever the thing is. Isthat

Eric Bomyea (50:48):
Yeah. And then the opportunity of saying, okay.
Like, do I trust this person? DoI understand where they're
coming from? Can I have adialogue with them to
understand, am I safe?
Right? Because I think that'sthat's really what judgment is.
It's just it it really is. It'sa natural human thing in service
of safety. Mhmm.

(51:08):
Right? I've just spent so muchof my life, like, fearing for
safety that, like, the the workis now to, like, remind myself
that I am safe. And, like, so,like, in those moments of, like,
reaction, I'm just like, okay.Like, am I safe? Am I safe with
this person?
Like, this person is calling mema'am, girl, queer, whatever it

(51:29):
might be. And, like, okay. Like,I have a I have a somatic
experience, and then I'mnoticing my reaction. Now I'm
pausing, and I'm saying, okay.Like, am I safe?

Timothy Bish (51:38):
Right. Well, that's what we were saying
earlier. You know, when I wasyoung and a lot of people, I
never I never thought that womenwere bad, but I knew that the
comparison to me being a womanmeant that I was unsafe. And so
I think what you just said is sogreat because I think a lot of
people, a lot of queer people inparticular, have had to wonder

(52:02):
about their safety. And I thinkthat's happening now too.
A moment where we are unclearhow safe we might be, and so
bringing this awareness of, oh,I'm feeling unsafe. And then
recognizing is that is that alegitimate lack of safety? In
which case, you would starttaking action. Maybe I need to

(52:26):
leave here. Maybe I need to, youknow, or is it a lack of safety
because of decades of bullyingor misunderstanding?
In which case, you may be ableto have a really fruitful, deep
experience where you are if youcan let that go. So thank you
for shining the light on thatprocess a little bit, but it

(52:47):
sounds like continuous work asas are most things. Right? Mhmm.
Why we do a practice.
Let's call it a practice. That'sright.

Eric Bomyea (52:55):
Not a

Timothy Bish (52:55):
perfect, a practice. That's right. Thank
you for that. That's great.That's a really great thing.
Yeah.

Eric Bomyea (53:01):
I think that reminder of of safety and, like,
when I was hearing you talkabout, like, where we're at
today and the amount of the lackof safety for so many, Like, I
can relate a little bit becauseI've like, I know what it feels

(53:21):
like in my body to, like, walkthrough this world feeling so
unsafe so often of my day and,like, the the havoc that it
wreaks on me. And one of thethings that it can do to me is
it like, if I'm going throughthe world constantly afraid of
being judged, what I end up thendoing is judging the world.

Timothy Bish (53:45):
As a defensive mechanism.

Eric Bomyea (53:46):
As a defense mechanism. Right? And, like, I'm
not my highest self in thosemoments, like, because I'm in a
state of, like, fear. I'm in astate of feeling unsafe. And so
if I'm walking through the worldin that state, then I'm not
vibrating at a high frequency.
I am, like, I'm gonna be judgingso much.

Timothy Bish (54:08):
Well, this is another another example then of,
like, why embodiment practice,why yogic practices are so
beneficial because most of themhave a direct impact on our
nervous system. And so if we arewalking around the world in this
sympathetic fight or flight,state, we are gonna be hyper

(54:29):
vigilant for danger. And we allknow that if I walk around the
world looking for something, orit's deeply in my awareness, I'm
gonna probably see more of it.Right? So it feels like a
snowball kind of thing.
And these practices can give usthe opportunity to turn the
volume down just enough to get alittle bit of clarity. And I

(54:53):
would say this when I workedwith my acupuncture patients,
like do these practicesespecially when you're not in
pain or when you're not, in thatheightened state so that they
you start to build that, neuropathway. It gets more and more
powerful. But just turning downthe volume can help us create
the necessary space between,feeling really unsafe and then

(55:16):
having to judge or be aware ofjudgment for our own protection
and, well, how is it I actuallywant to be right now? How is it
I want to feel?
How is it I want to engage? Sofriendly reminder this will be
an ongoing process especially ifyou're starting right now.
You're gonna you're gonna tryand there are gonna be moments

(55:36):
when it works and moments whenit doesn't work and moments when
you are falling back intopatterns of judgment or feeling
really judged by other peopleand having that reaction. Be
gentle with yourself. That'sanother aspect of men's work, of
yogic work, of shamanic work, isit's a process and it's a slow
sort of unfolding and allowingyourself to have that.

(55:58):
It is not a light switch. So itisn't stop judging. It's become
aware of when you judge, how youjudge, if it serves you, and and
go from there. So bit by bit,bit by bit, putting it together.

Eric Bomyea (56:14):
Judgment isn't bad, y'all. Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna
put a judgment on judgment.Mhmm. But, like, how can we use
it for our benefit?
Right. Just, like, quick quicklittle story of this week. So
the one of the biggest fearsthat I've been working through

(56:35):
recently is the fear ofjudgment, of being judged by
others, and how that createssuch a, like, physical reaction
in me. And, like, it definitelyit just comes down to, like, if
I'm being judged by others, thatmeans I'm under their spotlight
and I'm at their, like, whim ofwhether or not I belong, whether

(56:57):
or not I'm accepted. And, like,that to me is, like can feel
like death sometimes.
And so, like, there have beenmoments over the last, I would
say, like, four or five days,like, as I've been thinking
about, like, the the practicethat I wanted to bring for the
sharing circle and theembodiment circle this past week

(57:19):
of, like, going through so muchself doubt, so much self
sabotage, so much self judgmentbased off of what I thought,
like, other people were gonnajudge me by. And so, like, by
putting these practicestogether, I was going through my
own practice. Mhmm. Right? Andit was just, like, the amount of
journaling that I was doing and,like, resentment clearing

(57:39):
practices and, like, fearlessand all these things of, like,
just trying to, like, workthrough my own shit.
My own fear of judgment is whatreally inspired this week. You
know? Because it is it's such a,like, such a powerful thing to
recognize in us because itreally can be so prohibitive. It

(58:03):
can be so preventative of whatwe do in our lives, the actions
that we take that could lead usto feeling better, to healing,
to processing. And a lot of thetimes for me, that comes from a
very vulnerable state where I'mgonna have to put myself into a

(58:23):
position of being judged.

Timothy Bish (58:25):
Yeah. Well and that's, like, the journey of the
artist. Right? You have to bewilling to try some things and
see how they work and see howthey fit, and and I would argue
that some of the greatest piecesof art that have been created
came from a process that had tobe a little messy or go a little

(58:46):
wrong at times or, you

Eric Bomyea (58:49):
know, have its own evolution. Yeah. Well, thank you
for sharing the space with metoday. You feel complete?

Timothy Bish (58:55):
I feel complete. Alright. Will you take us out? I
will. Let's close our eyes.
Take a deep inhale. Soft exhalethrough the mouth. And with deep
appreciation and gratitude forthe shared space, the sacred
circle, this conversation, anyinsights that came, any
awarenesses. I wish all of thelisteners safety, community,

(59:16):
brotherhood, love. And withthese words, our container is
open, but not broken.
Uh-huh.