June 12, 2024 • 48 mins
We return this week with journalist Joan Baxter, who dives deeper into her work for the Deforestation Inc. investigative series that showcases reporting from 300 journalists worldwide. Joan shares with us her findings on ecologically destructive practices hidden behind sustainability claims.
We learn about how Joan's investigation into Canada’s logging industry helped uncover a web of corporate consolidation that has been aided by funding from taxpayers. We also discuss her book, The Mill: Fifty Years of Pulp and Protest, the story of taxpayer support for the Northern Pulp Mill in Nova Scotia and its history of “environmental racism” and public protests.
Check out The International Consortium of Investigative Journalists' Deforestation Inc. series and read Joan's article in the Halifax Examiner.
Make sure to check out the show notes on the podcast webpage for more links and helpful resources.
You can help this community grow by sharing the podcast with your friends.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jan Sumner (00:00):
Welcome to the Clear Cut.
Hi, I'm Janet Sumner, ExecutiveDirector at Wildlands League.
Kaya Adleman (00:08):
And I'm Kaya Adelman, Carbon Manager at
Wildlands League.
Jan Sumner (00:14):
Wildlands League is a Canadian conservation
organization working onprotecting the natural world.
Kaya Adleman (00:21):
The Clear Cut is bringing to you the much needed
conversation on Canadian forestmanagement and how we can better
protect one of Canada's mostimportant ecosystems, as our
forests are reaching a tippingpoint.
Jan Sumner (00:40):
Okay, this is episode two with Joan Baxter,
who hails from Nova Scotia, andshe's going to be talking quite
a bit about the issues that arerearing their heads in Nova
Scotia.
She's written a book about this, has done a lot of fact
checking about the issues.
I will say that we have notfact checked all of Joan's
(01:08):
issues.
We will post all of thearticles and the links to the
book and which include a lot offact checked, information for
you to go through, and werecommend that you do so if
you're interested in this andresearch a little bit more.
The podcast, the Clear Cut, ishere to give voice to people,
and we've given voice to, we'vegiven a platform for Joan Baxter
to speak about the issues thatshe's finding in in Nova Scotia,
(01:29):
but how these are also playingout at a global scale, when you
have companies like PaperExcellence that come in and buy
up various licensees and andmills, et cetera, and the
allocated fiber that goes alongwith those mills, and then what
happens at the local level orwhat she has experienced at the
(01:51):
local level.
This is not to make a grandstatement about it, but just as
an example, and so I think thatyou'll enjoy this episode for
all the richness of what she hasresearched and what she can
bring to the conversation, so Ilook forward to this dialogue.
Kaya Adleman (02:07):
Yeah, me too.
Definitely very, veryinteresting conversation and I
hope you enjoy it as much as Idid, and hopefully Jan did as
well.
Jan Sumner (02:16):
Yeah.
Kaya Adleman (02:20):
I was wondering if maybe we want to talk about
Deforestation Inc.
Joan Baxter (02:37):
Oh, which part did you want to talk about?
Kaya Adleman (02:38):
That's pretty broad or I don't know, maybe
like the Northern pulp mill inNova Scotia.
Maybe that's like a narrowerlens.
Joan Baxter (02:45):
Okay, well, I mean, that's something very near and
dear to my aching heart, thatstory, Because when I came back
from working for CIFOR actuallyin Kenya in 2016, I wrote a book
about a 50-year-old pulp millin Nova Scotia, in Pictou, nova
(03:08):
Scotia, which had been, as Ifound out, poll of the most
egregious cases of environmentalracism in Canada, in that the
(03:28):
provincial government back inthe 1960s basically lied to,
tricked in what has been calledalmost a criminal manner, the
chief and councillor from PictouLanding, first Nation into
signing over the use of theirprecious tidal estuary, which
they call ASEG, which means theother room, because it had so
(03:52):
many uses for them.
They fished there, theycollected medicine there, they
collected plants and food there.
They took their kids there tohide them when the RCMP came to
take them away to residentialschools.
They were convinced that ifthey signed that over for the
use of this pulp mill, which atthat time was Scott paper out of
(04:15):
Pennsylvania, they'd still beable to do everything except
drink the water, which was atotal lie.
Within days out, the fish weredead, it was completely
destroyed and they had to livewith that toxic pond in their
backyard from 1967 until thatmill stopped producing in 2020.
(04:39):
And I mean, it was just ahorrific story.
But that was just the waterpollution and of course that was
going out into theNorthumberland Strait.
They eventually dammed up thattidal estuary.
They also had to live with thestench of a very old, dirty
craft pulp mill that didn'tbother keeping their pollution
(05:03):
control mechanisms up to date atall.
They weren't even working,always exceeded their emissions
limits, even when they wereself-reporting, and was
purchased in 2011 by PaperExcellence.
At that time Paper Excellencewas very small in Canada, nobody
really knew who they were.
(05:24):
They realized they were relatedto Asia pulp and paper, which
has a horrendous credit andenvironmental record in Asia,
owned by the Indonesian Wijayafamily.
And they acquired the NovaScotia pulp mill in 2011, kept
it running and then they startedto expand in Canada and they
(05:50):
bought Catalyst in BritishColumbia.
They bought two mills inSaskatchewan.
That gave them three mills inBritish Columbia.
Then they bought Domtar, whichgave them a huge foothold in
North America, the States andCanada and all the mills and, of
course, all the associatedforest leases.
(06:11):
Then, most recently last year,they bought Resolute.
So that gave, and that was mylast communication, actually,
that I ever had from ForestProducts Association of Canada
because I was working on thisDeforestation Inc investigative
series on this company in Canada.
I asked how much land, how muchforest land that would give
(06:36):
paper excellence, ostensiblyowned by one single Indonesian
billionaire.
But we don't know because it'sa very complex, opaque corporate
structure and ownership andbasically it looks as if it's
all run by the same family,which is Asia Pulp and Paper
Sign, our mass corporation, hugein China, huge in Indonesia.
(06:57):
The FPAC made possibly themistake of actually answering a
question honestly and told me itwould give them control of 22
million hectares of Canadianforest land, which is an area
four times the size of NovaScotia, and we don't even really
know who owns it.
And they got through thecompetition bureau and were able
(07:23):
to make these takeovers.
They took those companiesprivate.
So again we lost any insight wehad into how things are being
run.
They also have been fighting toget hold of a massive pulp mill
and forest concession orplantation concession in Brazil
(07:44):
which is being they'recontesting in the courts and
this company, paper Excellence,has kind of.
They have a very interestingbusiness model.
They also operate in France.
They have two mills in Franceand they get grants from the
government to stay open forthose jobs and to support the
(08:09):
forestry sector industrialforestry sector and to clean up
their act because they polluteso terribly.
In Nova Scotia they've had $28million from the federal
government to clean up their actand they've had $111 million
from the government of NovaScotia also to purchase 475,000
(08:32):
acres of Nova Scotia which theystill own.
No-transcript.
(09:13):
And what we were told by manypeople who had worked for them
is that what's going on inCanada is a fiber grab.
That's why they just closethose mills and every time they
want more fiber.
For example, in Saskatchewanright now they keep saying
they're going to open one of themills that's been hibernating
if they get access to moreboreal forests in Saskatchewan.
There are people fighting thatin Saskatchewan who have been in
(09:35):
touch with me.
They feel like they're dealingwith the same company.
So they get government money,they close the mills anyway and
then they open it again if theyget more forests and that seems
to be the way that they operate.
And here in Nova Scotia becausewe had one premier who was a
(09:58):
very stubborn guy and didn'tlike being threatened told them
they had to close that effluentfacility which was called Boat
Harbor and didn't give in totheir pressure, and so they had
to close the pulp mill in 2020,at which point Northern Pulp,
(10:18):
owned by Paper Excellence, ownedby the Wijaya family that's
worth $10 billion, owned by theWijaya family that's worth $10
billion declared bankruptcy andwent into creditor protection in
the British Columbia SupremeCourt.
Their largest creditor isthemselves Paper Excellence, and
the second creditor is NovaScotia government, which is
(10:39):
still owed $86 million andthey're not repaying that while
they're in court.
Owed $86 million and they'renot repaying that while they're
in court.
Meanwhile, they continue toharvest on Nova Scotia Crown
land, on their own land thatthey haven't repaid the people
of Nova Scotia.
They got a loan of $75 millionfrom the people of Nova Scotia
to buy 475,000 acres.
(11:01):
They harvest on that land, butthey're not repaying that loan.
75,000 acres.
They harvest on that land, butthey're not repaying that loan.
And when you speak aboutcorporate capture in the
forestry industry, I think NovaScotia could actually could
write a whole monologue on it.
So the former premier of NovaScotia, progressive conservative
, john Hamm, in 2002, extendedthe lease with the company,
(11:28):
which has changed hands fivetimes.
It went through five Americanowners before it was bought by
Paper Excellence Gave thoseowners until he just extended
the lease on that pulp milleffluent facility until 2030,
like that.
When he left office he becamechair of the board, and he was
(11:48):
chair of the board of NorthernPulp from 2010 until 2020 when
the mill closed.
And former ministers whom Iinterviewed for the book I wrote
about this pulp mill told methat this former premier, john
Hamm, every time the governmentor minister changed, he would
just walk right through thedepartment introducing everybody
to the executives of thiscompany.
(12:10):
So it's serious corporatecapture plus our Department of
Natural Resources and Renewables.
Basically, all the three peopledeciding forestry policies in
Nova Scotia had come from pulpmills, one from Resolute, one
from the Stora Enso pulp mill inPort Hawkesbury, and those were
(12:31):
the people who basically havebeen making forestry policies in
Nova Scotia for the last fewyears.
And I suspect though I have nobasis to say this, but I have a
hunch if you look in otherprovinces you'll probably find
very similar patterns I feellike the forestry sector has had
(12:53):
even less scrutiny than the oiland gas sector in Canada.
Of all the extractive industries, I think even the mining sector
sometimes gets more scrutinythan the forestry sector does.
So that's kind of the NorthernPulp saga in a nutshell, I
should just add, if you want totalk about tactics and bullying,
(13:15):
after my book came out, theyrefused to allow me, they didn't
give me any interviews, paperexcellence and their
communications person,unbeknownst to me, a month or so
before the book was evenpublished, sent a letter out to
all former employees andemployees of the Northern Pult
Mill and it was a form letterwith a form for them to send off
(13:39):
to Chapters Indigo in Torontoand to the local bookstores,
saying that if I were allowed topromote my book in their stores
or do any signings, they wouldorchestrate a nationwide boycott
of those bookstores.
So my book signing wascancelled because the bookstore
(14:04):
owner was threatened.
And she was told by some of thepaper excellence employees that
they would come in and tear itup in the mall and destroy
everything.
So that's how they operate Ifthey don't get what they want,
they bully.
Which is why I say I feel likethe forestry sector has an
(14:25):
undeserved mythological goodreputation in Canada and as a
non-forestry expert, I am also amember, because I'm a woodlot
owner.
I'm a member of a forestrycooperative here in Nova Scotia
and I spend a lot of timetalking to the professionals who
(14:48):
work there, who do theecological forestry and who are
very much geared towards tryingto reestablish the Wabanaki
Indigenous Forest, and theyagree with me.
Actually, I'm learning fromthem.
A lot of this stuff doesn'tcome from me.
It comes from these people whohave worked inside the
industrial forestry sector andpretty are extremely
(15:10):
disillusioned by it.
I've been I'm not exaggeratingto say that I've been.
we now have qualified to beable to run commercials on our
(15:32):
podcast.
This may not seem like a goodthing for some people, but for
us at the clear cut, it's a verygood thing.
It means that you are public,are now downloading over a
thousand copies of each episodea month, which is fantastic, and
it puts us into a new bracketwhere people want to actually
advertise on the podcast.
(15:52):
We are going to do our verybest to make sure that the ads
that run on the podcast aresomething that may be of
relevance or of interest to you,and hope that you can listen to
these ads and see them as amarker of success and your faith
in the podcast.
So thank you so much forlistening to the Clear Cut.
I know that, kaya, and Iappreciate it, so very, very
(16:13):
much, thank you.
I want to provide a little bitof contrast, because I think
that there are companies outthere that Joan's talked about,
but I also know some companieswhere we've had progressive
companies who want to do some ofthe right things, and we've
seen some of them.
(16:34):
I know one company in Quebecwhere their chief forester went
to work for the crown or workfor the province, and she's
fantastic.
I think she's great, she knowswhat she's doing.
So we've seen, uh, really goodforesters move back and forth
between governments and industryand so just um, just to put
(16:55):
that into context a little bit,and then I would.
to speak to the lack of choicesfor small mafia.
, that between a rock and a hardplace when industries are.
Maybe it's a one-industry town,maybe it's a two-industry town,
(17:17):
but I mean the fact thatcompanies can ask for these
letters to be signed or forpeople.
We've had experiences inOntario where people get bused
from one location to another togo and protest against the
environmental groups coming intotown.
I've personally had people, youknow, yelling and screaming at
me, et cetera, even when you'rein there to try and actually do
(17:39):
a collaborative approach andwork with the company on a
forest management plan, and sothere is on a forest management
plan, and so there is thischallenge to livelihoods and to
people's existence that I think,also keeps them enthralled to
what industry wants or can maketheir demands very threatening
(18:02):
to their own lives.
So yeah, I just wanted tocomment on that.
Oh, I mean absolutely.
I have so much s ympathy forthe small operators and, as I
say, even 40 years ago everysmall town had a small mill that
was supplied by localcontractors and when this big
pulp mill came in, they actuallyhad their own hired contractors
(18:26):
.
So they took the load, theytook the responsibility and they
went out and they did theiroperations themselves.
Over the years they'veoutsourced it and, as we know,
if you're a forestry contractorand you want to operate in the
modern industrial sector, you'vegot to invest a million dollars
in machinery or two million,which means you're totally
(18:46):
beholden to the bank and ifyou're not going to have your
house and your machine seized,you have to run the thing 24/7.
And they are.
They're really caught in a verydifficult position because
that's what they've beenrelegated to, because the
industrial forestry sector, verymuch like agriculture, has
forced them to go into so muchdebt to compete and they
(19:09):
actually did decimate the jobs.
They've reduced the number ofjobs in the forestry sector in
Nova Scotia, absolutelyincredibly, by a factor of 10 or
100.
I can't remember the actualfigure, but there used to be so
many more people who couldactually make a living working
in the forest.
Who can't?
Now?
Because you can't unless youhave one of those giant machines
(19:31):
.
Now, as I say the forestry co-opwith whom I work they don't get
to tell landowners what they'regoing to do.
They offer them the options andthen it's up to the private
landowners to decide how they'regoing to manage the work done
on their land.
And the operators of thosemachines I mean the family that
(19:54):
actually did the work on ourproperty.
They're like ballet dancerswith those machines.
What they can do if they wantto and if they're allowed to is
amazing.
But very often they're notallowed to because it's not the
most profitable way to work inthe forest.
And they agonize over it aswell.
(20:15):
I don't want to.
Demon's small contractors arebeholden to their debts, while
the big companies seeminglyaren't.
That's interesting, and they'renot the members of FPAC who are
(20:39):
driving this stuff.
Jan Sumner (20:42):
I mean, FPAC has a lot of members, Just to be clear
.
There's quite a few membersacross Canada.
But I have a recent experiencewith a company that we worked
with last year in Ontario thathad Indigenous-owned contractors
who ran their machines andagain they had to mortgage
(21:04):
everything to get those machinesand it requires them to be run
at a fairly high rate and thenif one of them breaks down,
that's the livelihood, that'sall of their assets.
It's very, very difficult.
Joan Baxter (21:26):
Yeah, it's tough.
I mean this particular campaign.
I also wanted to mention to youthat I also lurk on Twitter X
(21:49):
and this article was tweeted outand I had a response from
somebody who is head of mediaand campaigns for energy cities
in Brussels in Europe, and hewrote we have similar campaigns
here in Europe.
The name of this one isalarmingly close the one that
they have there to the one youwrote about in Canada.
So this isn't even somethinglimited to Canada.
(22:13):
I think this is a worldwidephenomenon.
Kaya Adleman (22:18):
And I think there's a fiber shortage and so
there's a fiber grab going on.
Yeah, that's the informationthat you'll see on your social
media pages.
Is forestry for the future orwhatever other uh
industry-backed campaign, butnot journalist written pieces
like deforestation inc and yourwork in the halifax examiner
Joan Baxter (22:37):
Well, that's the frustrating irony, isn't it that
I dissected this campaign, butmy article can't be shared on
facebook.
But I still had to keep lookingat their posts, which can be.
Jan Sumner (22:49):
Yeah, and the one that you were talking about, the
broad campaign, but I guessinvestigation, was it
Deconstruction or DeforestationInc.
Joan Baxter (23:00):
Deforestation Inc and it was as I say, it was last
year.
It involved 350 media outletsaround the world, from Myanmar
to Brazil to Spain, everywherespearheaded by the International
Consortium of InvestigativeJournalists, and it was kind of
two-pronged.
They were looking atcertification schemes, schemes
(23:32):
so Forest Stewardship Council,sfi and really critical of FSC
actually, which is the goldstandard for certification
schemes but been very seriouslyweakened over the years, and
they found a lot of gaps wherethey weren't monitoring.
Even FSC was not monitoringthings.
So that's they and that wasworldwide, and it was called
Deforestation Inc.
(23:52):
There were literally thousandsof articles that emerged from it
.
But the articles that we, theCanadians and people in France
published actually led to and wewere focused much more on paper
excellence and the fiber grabin Canada and the origins of
paper excellence and thefinancing behind it, which had
(24:14):
been from China.
Back in the 2000s.
Our articles led NDP MP CharlieAngus to ask for an
investigation into paperexcellence in the Natural
Resources Standing Committee,which happened actually, and
(24:37):
they invited the ostensibleowner of paper excellence,
jackson Wijaya, who doesn't livein Canada, he has houses in
Indonesia and London and allsorts of places,
multi-multi-millionaire, part ofthis gazillionaire family.
They invited him to come andappear before the committee and
(25:00):
twice he declined, twice Infront of Canada's elected
parliamentarians.
The next step would have beento pass a resolution that would
have issued a summons, which isquite rare.
And if that happened whichdidn't happen because the
Conservative Party startedfilibustering that committee on
(25:22):
on Oil and Gas and TransitionAct acts bills then if Jackson
Wijaya set foot in Canada hecould have been officially
escorted into Canada's House ofCommons.
But that didn't go that farbecause, as I say, the committee
got distracted and filibusteredby the Conservatives on other
(25:46):
issues, got distracted andfilibustered by the
Conservatives on other issues,but it was still quite a snub by
a company that is now thebiggest, has the biggest market
share in Canada it is 21,.
22% of Canada's forestry sectoris in the hands of this one man
.
Supposedly that he snubbedCanada's elected officials and
wouldn't even appear in front ofthem to answer questions about
(26:07):
who owns what and what theirreal intentions are in Canada.
That didn't get much mediaagain, but it got some, and if
those media could be shared onFacebook and Instagram it would
have even more publicity andmaybe other media would have
picked it up.
Jan Sumner (26:32):
But yeah, well, it sounds pretty daunting even for
a province to take on some ofthat, because that's the other
thing is, much of this isdisaggregated across the country
and, as you're saying, hal, youknow, in Nova Scotia there was
a premier who said you know what, I'm not going to accept this
and decided to push back, yetstill it ends up in a court in
british columbia that's beingfought and they still don't have
the money.
And what was it?
(26:53):
173 million or something theystill owe.
Joan Baxter (26:57):
They owe 86, but I forgot to mention that actually
they're suing the province for450 million for premature,
premature closing of the pulpmill.
Gotcha Because they said theywere allowed to use that pulp
effluent treatment center until2030 because a former premier
had signed off on that.
So, in addition to the factthat they're not repaying the
(27:18):
debt, this gazillionaire company, they're also suing the
province of Nova Scotia for anamount that could exceed $450
million.
And all of that is behindclosed doors mediation in the
Supreme Court of BritishColumbia, which, as Nova
Scotians like to point out, isvery odd, since Northern Pulp is
(27:40):
in Nova Scotia.
Yeah, very odd, but again itspeaks to how much power and
money these corporations have
Jan Sumner (27:53):
And also how frustrating it must be.
I mean, those are taxpayerdollars that are going to fight
that lawsuit and every day incourt is going to cost you a lot
of money.
So it's not just what's owed,but it's also what you're being
sued for, and then all of theamount of time that you have to
spend doing that and it losescomplete sight of sustainability
.
And if we have good jobs, inthe forest
Joan Baxter (28:22):
I mean another angle of this PR thing ( and I'm
not sure, I see it a lot in thesort of small local
publications that still exist,media publications that still
exist, m any of them are kind ofa one-person or one-family
operation, but the way many ofthe large forestry corporations
operate and many of the largecorporations operate is, you
know, they suck up public moneyto the tune of tens, to the
(28:44):
hundreds of millions.
They sue when they don't getwhat they want.
I operation) paper excellence,has had nova scotia in court I
can't remember how many times Ithink six since about 2014
because they wanted them to useless water, they wanted them to
reduce their emissions, andevery time, every step of the
way, they go to court and fightit.
And at the same time, one ofthese Paper Excellence is a
(29:09):
master of this they'll hand out$25,000 to a local firefighter
group or they'll hand out$50,000 to one First Nation, and
that gets more headlines thantheir pollution.
And it works, unfortunately,because they hand out a press
(29:30):
release.
It gets printed in a localnewspaper and then it gets
picked up by the echo chamberand those things can show up on
Facebook and Meta.
So that's another angle tothese campaigns that works
really, really well and makespeople think that these are
benevolent just benevolentcorporations
Jan Sumner (29:52):
Or even say there's two sides to the equation.
They did this, but they alsodid this right, so it it sends a
mixed message into the uh tothe sphere
Joan Baxter (30:02):
And I mean these amounts of money they give out
is just it's not even pocketchange for them.
So it's the stuff that wouldfall out of their pockets if
they were walking down thestreet.
Jan Sumner (30:22):
But it's pretty incredible that you had 300
journalists, investigativejournalists, come together.
I mean while we've seen tTraditional media and the new,
newly coming to the fore mediathat is still fact-checked and
produces journalism in a goodway.
We're still seeing all of that,uh, now amalgamating, sometimes
in these ways that are reallypowerful, because that was.
I read a lot of the articles onthat deforestation,
(30:42):
deforestation inc and it you.
It really gives you a differentworldview and it's almost like
unchained right, because you'renot even you're allowed to
report on these things and getto others.
But 300 coming together is animmense opportunity.
Joan Baxter (30:58):
Those were very interesting Zoom meetings.
I bet, I bet, I betThe european media, I mean, um,
(31:19):
germany still has very goodpublicly funded media, um, and
people pay more taxes to getthat in in europe than they do
here.
So so the European media havenot been as badly decimated in
recent years as have NorthAmerican media, and I mean
Canada is in a particularly diresituation.
When I was in journalism schoolback decades ago, I can
(31:41):
remember the studies then, theThompson's report, you know,
saying that every town had tohave two different media outlets
or newspapers, and they wereconcerned then about the
concentration of ownership.
And now you look across thecountry and there's almost
nothing left except, you know,the hedge fund owned right wing
(32:04):
National Post, the globe andmail, which has always had a
certain line, and, in a very,very pro-business uh, the
toronto star, which was alsosold off, and then the closure
of all of these small mediaoutlets.
I know that this isn't specificto our forestry discussion, but
(32:25):
it's specific to every issue,really, because people aren't
informed anymore.
It used to be that the peopleeven when I was researching for
the pulp mill book and that wasin 2016-17, I would go into the
archives and find a little tinyNew Glasgow thing, evening news,
(32:45):
and it was as thick as atelephone directory.
Every single tiny community hadsomebody reporting from there.
So people knew what was goingon in their own community and in
their own local government,their own provincial government
and federal government andthat's gone.
And I find it really, reallyworrisome.
(33:06):
So even if you, no matter whatissue you're fighting and I'll
take the example again of ourpoor friends who are down there
camping out that was in thewinter, by the way, during that
big dump of snow we got, theywere still there they don't get
the media coverage they wouldhave got before because there's
so little left and I think, butthere they they are, they're
(33:32):
still out there.
I mean, I really have greatfaith in canadian
citizens
Jan Sumner (33:36):
yeah, and we turn increasingly to the social media
channels because we aren'tgetting the media from, uh you
know, sources that can be reliedon and that gets skewed, as you
said, by these uh big, uh pr
campaigns and a lot of sorry.
Joan Baxter (33:52):
Did you make yourself read any of the
comments?
Because the comments are in thethousands and actually I found
some of the comments quiteencouraging
Jan Sumner (34:00):
yeah, no, the comments are quite good.
um, I, I do find it, uh itencouraging that we're starting
to see this.
Journalists tackle this, and itis context setting.
Well, it's not all aboutforestry.
It does set the context, forhow does forestry get reported?
How do we hold forestrycompanies accountable?
(34:20):
How can governments be evenhelped in holding forestry
companies accountable?
Because corporate capturehappens a lot in the absence of
the public being able to seethis, and so if you have the
resources, if you have theability to go in and talk to
governments multiple times andthat transparency is not out
(34:42):
there in the public, thenobviously the politicians are
going to be listening to youbecause they hear you the most.
So it's all context setting allcontext setting
Joan Baxter (34:53):
Absolutely, and I don't know what's going on at
the level of all the differentprovinces.
I've kept close track.
I suspect that it's probablysomething that's a very similar
message with all the provincialforest associations in nova
scotia.
They they don't call themselvesthe nova scotia forest products
association anymore.
They now call themselves forestnova scotia, which is
(35:16):
delightfully benign, um, butthey also.
The first thing you see ontheir, their website is that
forestry combats climate change.
So there's certainly um peopleworking on fantastic rebrand
messaging therefore, their firstblog is, you know, forestry, a
(35:39):
proactive approach to wildlifeprevention.
So it's it.
You know, you can see that.
You can see they're workingwith professional message
massagers to get the samemessage out everywhere, and it's
very powerful again, becausethat's what people are hearing
(36:00):
and seeing.
Oh, and they're starting theirown podcast too, by the way
Forest.
Massage.
Oh fun Coming soon.
Jan Sumner (36:06):
Well, I think it's tough because people want you
know.
You look out at the forest andyou want it to be true.
You want it to be true thatforestry is going to help you
with climate change.
I do believe forests will helpus with climate change if we
don't manage them to death, andso forestry is a very different
(36:31):
kettle of fish.
Joan Baxter (36:35):
When the Northern Pulp Mill was fighting for its
life against the premier andthey were really trying to mount
a campaign to convince thepremier to extend their use of
that effluent facility so thatthey could keep running forest,
nova scotia came up with acampaign called nova scotia
needs forestry and the ecologyaction center made a little
(36:59):
sticker with an s on it so thatpeople were going around and
removing the ry at the end of itand putting an S on it.
Jan Sumner (37:10):
That's the thing is it gets translated in your head.
Is for us, Right?
And that's the that's, that'sthe difficulty.
So we're, we're almost out oftime, Joan.
I just wanted to ask are thereany things that so?
Why do you get up in themorning and write Cause, cause?
Do you have hope?
Do you?
Are you just sheerdetermination and anger and
(37:32):
stick-to-itiveness?
Is it just?
You know good, is it like?
What is it that motivates joanbaxter?
Is it?
Is it?
Uh, yeah, do you have hope?
Kaya Adleman (37:41):
yeah, and where can we?
Where can we read your work?
Um, not on meta platforms.
Joan Baxter (37:50):
Well, first of all, right now I mean, as I say,
I've been writing for theHalifax Examiner primarily, and
I've also been writing for theEnergy Mix, so on climate change
issues and on green hydrogenand associated issues, which
also then they all startoverlapping because the green
hydrogen would be producers herein Nova Scotia want to
basically cover the entireprovince with giant wind
(38:12):
turbines, which will reallyimpact the remaining forests.
So do I have hope?
I wouldn't do all this stuff ifI didn't have hope.
I would just stay in bed withthe pillow over my head.
But you have't have hope.
I would just stay in bed withthe pillow over my head, but you
have to have hope.
I think that's what makes humanbeings human beings, I mean,
(38:34):
from the beginning of time youalways have hope, doing this
again and again and again andbeing beaten down.
But then I look around me and Iam surrounded by and in touch
with all of the people who careabout the environment in Nova
Scotia do reach out to thejournalists and it's the amount
(38:58):
of caring that really keeps megoing.
And there's, you know, there'sa forest school not far from
where I live and I went andspent a day there with these
kids and I'm getting goosebumpstalking about it right now I
could probably start to cry.
That gave me hope.
(39:19):
If you take a kid into thewoods, they will never come out,
and they haven't said.
I said well, you know, aren'tyou bored here?
They said, no, we're bored whenwe're at home.
There's nothing boring in here.
So those are the things that dogive me hope.
And right across the countryI've been, you know, as I say,
I'm contacted by people inSaskatchewan and British
(39:41):
Columbia all facing the samething, and I see more and more
of the groups across the countrytrying to link up with each
other, which I find reallyencouraging.
So, yeah, I have hope.
There are definitely moments,I'm sure we all have them, but
yeah.
Jan Sumner (39:59):
I have hope.
Kaya Adleman (40:02):
And what's the title of your book?
Joan Baxter (40:04):
It's just called the Mill.
50 Years of Pulp, pulp andprotest, and it's time for a
sequel.
I thought I was finished withthe story, but it goes on.
It's a story that never ends,oh goodness so where?
Jan Sumner (40:21):
where can we get your book?
Joan Baxter (40:23):
that is a really good question.
I know that you can order itonline and it's available as an
e-book as well, and I know thatNimbus here in Nova Scotia was
distributing the hard copies.
But I suspect if you do somesearching online you'll find
it's available, hopefully.
I should probably find out ifit's gone out of print, but it
(40:46):
hadn't last time I checked.
It's gone out of print, but ithadn't last time I checked
Jan Sumner (40:49):
Well, I certainly signed up for the Halifax
Examiner.
As soon as I read your articleI was like, oh, I have to get
more of Joan.
Yeah, I absolutely have to getmore of Joan
Joan Baxter (40:57):
Well, I'm really pleased that you did.
I'm really grateful too, yeah,and I'm really grateful for all
the work that you do and foryour podcast which I've also
signed up for.
Jan Sumner (41:16):
Okay, one of the things I learned was Joan's also
a woodlot owner which.
I hadn't known when we starteddown this trail with Joan and
she speaks about her work thatshe did as part of Deforestation
Inc.
And 300 journalists, and Ithought it was funny when she
said those Zoom calls weresomething else.
I mean, you've got all thosedifferent time zones.
(41:37):
I remember just last week wewere trying to put together some
work with a time zonedifference with Central Europe
and Western Canada and mesitting here in Toronto and that
was a nightmare.
I can't imagine trying to do300 journalists around the world
and having a conversation aboutforestry.
(41:58):
It must have been anorganizational nightmare.
But kudos and if you haven'tseen the website, go check it
out there's lots of stories onthere.
Again, it's heavily researchedand it included the CBC and
others that participated in this, along with Joan who was
writing for the Halifax Examiner, and many others around the
(42:19):
globe.
So I think you'll find theinformation there really quite
enlightening.
And you know, I was really blownaway by all the research that
Joan has done the book thatshe's put out.
It was disheartening to hearabout some of the work that was
being done to block the bookbeing promoted or out there.
(42:42):
Yeah, it's unfortunate whencompanies have to resort to that
.
If they're feeling that they'rea great company and they're
doing good work, they should beproud to take on the criticism
and answer the questions.
So I'm surprised at that.
It's unfortunate.
Kaya Adleman (43:04):
Yeah, I think what stands out to me I don't think
we've talked about this in suchgreat detail, but it's this idea
that I guess in our currentsystem and the way that the
forest industry and a lot ofindustries are structured, is
that, as a smallholderespecially, it's only profitable
in its ecologically destructivestate, and the idea that if you
want to be a participant inthis forestry marketplace, you
(43:26):
have to go into up to millionsof dollars of debt and in order
to not default on those debts,you have to operate the
machinery you took out loans forat that max capacity.
That idea really stood out tome as a market inefficiency and
something that definitely Ithink needs to be addressed,
(43:46):
especially if we're going tomove forward and truly make
forestry more sustainable and,you know, be on track to meet
our climate and biodiversitycommitments.
Jan Sumner (43:57):
It's definitely something that needs to be yeah,
it gets to be a self-fulfillingproblem, right?
So, for example, if you've tobe able to qualify to harvest in
that area, you need to be ableto harvest at a certain level.
So you need certain equipmentthat can harvest at that rate of
harvesting, and that means youneed a feller, buncher and you
need the specialized equipment.
(44:18):
And these pieces of machineryare enormous right Standing next
to them.
They are much larger than anindividual and they have to be
able to reach out and grab agreat big group of trees and
pull them in all at the sametime.
So that's not something that youknow lightweight machinery can
do, and sometimes it stalls inthe middle of the day or you've
(44:39):
got a problem or something youknow your energy source might
have run dry, whatever it is.
You've got all kinds ofvariables and that cuts into
your profits, and if you'veliterally had to mortgage to get
that piece of machinery, it'syour lifeblood.
It basically is between asuccessful harvest and something
(45:02):
that can make money and not.
And that's because we have toharvest at that scale, and if we
weren't harvesting that scale,could we have machinery that had
a lighter touch at a differentapproach and what's also
interesting and I don't have thefacts right now to back me up
but I believe there has been atrend over many, many years that
(45:23):
we're actually harvesting, youknow, at a rate that is much
higher than we did at one time,but the number of jobs has
actually decreased because ofmechanization.
So we've been able to mechanizemany of these jobs, which has
decreased the number of jobs,even though we might be at the
same, or even increasedproduction.
(45:44):
So yeah, it's a challenge.
Kaya Adleman (46:02):
Yeah, and it does get back to these core themes.
So, yeah, it's a challenge forus to try to think of how to do
more sustainable, moreecologically sensitive second
growth harvesting.
It makes it hard to be aparticipant in that industry.
Jan Sumner (46:19):
Yeah, the money's just not there.
What I was left with is thisjust again creates the question
in my mind how could we actuallystart to change how we do
things?
And I've always thought of it,and I mentioned this a little
bit earlier is it's where weharvest, how we harvest and how
much we harvest?
And those are the questions Ithink the central questions that
(46:41):
we need to answer, especiallyas we reach.
In some areas, we've alreadyconverted the forest and so
we're now at second growth andwe need to be rethinking how
we're doing things.
Kaya Adleman (46:52):
Yeah, great conversation today.
Yeah, likewise, and if you wantto read any article further
articles about this you won'tfind them on Facebook or meta
platforms, but you can go to ourshow notes, where we will have
all the articles linked on ourweb page.
Yeah, feel free to share ourshow notes.
Jan Sumner (47:14):
Yes, I think you can share those, probably on social
media.
Yeah, definitely, definitelyyou can.
You can also share the podcast,obviously, and allow people to
listen to this and make theirown decisions.
I mean, you know, you are allreally intelligent people and
you'll make your own decisionsand you'll you'll either agree
or disagree and come to someother conclusions, but we wanted
to make sure we offer this sothat public relations materials
(47:36):
weren't landing in a in a voidof other information.
So thanks for listening.
Kaya Adleman (47:41):
Yeah, thanks Joan, and thanks Jan.
Jan Sumner (47:44):
If you like listening to the clear cut and
want to keep the content coming,support the show.
It would mean a lot to Kai andI.
The link to do so will be inthe episode description below.
Kaya Adleman (47:55):
You can also become a supporter by going to
our website atwwwwildlandsleagueorg.
Slash the clear cut and alsomake sure to leave us a review
on your favorite podcaststreaming platform.
It would really help thepodcast and stay tuned for new
episodes by following us onsocial media.
Jan Sumner (48:16):
That's at Wildlands League on Instagram, twitter and
Facebook or LinkedIn, of course.
Kaya Adleman (48:22):
See you next time.
Welcome to the Clear Cut.
Hi, I'm Janet Sumner, ExecutiveDirector at Wildlands League.
Kaya Adleman (00:08):
And I'm Kaya Adelman, Carbon Manager at
Wildlands League.
Jan Sumner (00:14):
Wildlands League is a Canadian conservation
organization working onprotecting the natural world.
Kaya Adleman (00:21):
The Clear Cut is bringing to you the much needed
conversation on Canadian forestmanagement and how we can better
protect one of Canada's mostimportant ecosystems, as our
forests are reaching a tippingpoint.
Jan Sumner (00:40):
Okay, this is episode two with Joan Baxter,
who hails from Nova Scotia, andshe's going to be talking quite
a bit about the issues that arerearing their heads in Nova
Scotia.
She's written a book about this, has done a lot of fact
checking about the issues.
I will say that we have notfact checked all of Joan's
(01:08):
issues.
We will post all of thearticles and the links to the
book and which include a lot offact checked, information for
you to go through, and werecommend that you do so if
you're interested in this andresearch a little bit more.
The podcast, the Clear Cut, ishere to give voice to people,
and we've given voice to, we'vegiven a platform for Joan Baxter
to speak about the issues thatshe's finding in in Nova Scotia,
(01:29):
but how these are also playingout at a global scale, when you
have companies like PaperExcellence that come in and buy
up various licensees and andmills, et cetera, and the
allocated fiber that goes alongwith those mills, and then what
happens at the local level orwhat she has experienced at the
(01:51):
local level.
This is not to make a grandstatement about it, but just as
an example, and so I think thatyou'll enjoy this episode for
all the richness of what she hasresearched and what she can
bring to the conversation, so Ilook forward to this dialogue.
Kaya Adleman (02:07):
Yeah, me too.
Definitely very, veryinteresting conversation and I
hope you enjoy it as much as Idid, and hopefully Jan did as
well.
Jan Sumner (02:16):
Yeah.
Kaya Adleman (02:20):
I was wondering if maybe we want to talk about
Deforestation Inc.
Joan Baxter (02:37):
Oh, which part did you want to talk about?
Kaya Adleman (02:38):
That's pretty broad or I don't know, maybe
like the Northern pulp mill inNova Scotia.
Maybe that's like a narrowerlens.
Joan Baxter (02:45):
Okay, well, I mean, that's something very near and
dear to my aching heart, thatstory, Because when I came back
from working for CIFOR actuallyin Kenya in 2016, I wrote a book
about a 50-year-old pulp millin Nova Scotia, in Pictou, nova
(03:08):
Scotia, which had been, as Ifound out, poll of the most
egregious cases of environmentalracism in Canada, in that the
(03:28):
provincial government back inthe 1960s basically lied to,
tricked in what has been calledalmost a criminal manner, the
chief and councillor from PictouLanding, first Nation into
signing over the use of theirprecious tidal estuary, which
they call ASEG, which means theother room, because it had so
(03:52):
many uses for them.
They fished there, theycollected medicine there, they
collected plants and food there.
They took their kids there tohide them when the RCMP came to
take them away to residentialschools.
They were convinced that ifthey signed that over for the
use of this pulp mill, which atthat time was Scott paper out of
(04:15):
Pennsylvania, they'd still beable to do everything except
drink the water, which was atotal lie.
Within days out, the fish weredead, it was completely
destroyed and they had to livewith that toxic pond in their
backyard from 1967 until thatmill stopped producing in 2020.
(04:39):
And I mean, it was just ahorrific story.
But that was just the waterpollution and of course that was
going out into theNorthumberland Strait.
They eventually dammed up thattidal estuary.
They also had to live with thestench of a very old, dirty
craft pulp mill that didn'tbother keeping their pollution
(05:03):
control mechanisms up to date atall.
They weren't even working,always exceeded their emissions
limits, even when they wereself-reporting, and was
purchased in 2011 by PaperExcellence.
At that time Paper Excellencewas very small in Canada, nobody
really knew who they were.
(05:24):
They realized they were relatedto Asia pulp and paper, which
has a horrendous credit andenvironmental record in Asia,
owned by the Indonesian Wijayafamily.
And they acquired the NovaScotia pulp mill in 2011, kept
it running and then they startedto expand in Canada and they
(05:50):
bought Catalyst in BritishColumbia.
They bought two mills inSaskatchewan.
That gave them three mills inBritish Columbia.
Then they bought Domtar, whichgave them a huge foothold in
North America, the States andCanada and all the mills and, of
course, all the associatedforest leases.
(06:11):
Then, most recently last year,they bought Resolute.
So that gave, and that was mylast communication, actually,
that I ever had from ForestProducts Association of Canada
because I was working on thisDeforestation Inc investigative
series on this company in Canada.
I asked how much land, how muchforest land that would give
(06:36):
paper excellence, ostensiblyowned by one single Indonesian
billionaire.
But we don't know because it'sa very complex, opaque corporate
structure and ownership andbasically it looks as if it's
all run by the same family,which is Asia Pulp and Paper
Sign, our mass corporation, hugein China, huge in Indonesia.
(06:57):
The FPAC made possibly themistake of actually answering a
question honestly and told me itwould give them control of 22
million hectares of Canadianforest land, which is an area
four times the size of NovaScotia, and we don't even really
know who owns it.
And they got through thecompetition bureau and were able
(07:23):
to make these takeovers.
They took those companiesprivate.
So again we lost any insight wehad into how things are being
run.
They also have been fighting toget hold of a massive pulp mill
and forest concession orplantation concession in Brazil
(07:44):
which is being they'recontesting in the courts and
this company, paper Excellence,has kind of.
They have a very interestingbusiness model.
They also operate in France.
They have two mills in Franceand they get grants from the
government to stay open forthose jobs and to support the
(08:09):
forestry sector industrialforestry sector and to clean up
their act because they polluteso terribly.
In Nova Scotia they've had $28million from the federal
government to clean up their actand they've had $111 million
from the government of NovaScotia also to purchase 475,000
(08:32):
acres of Nova Scotia which theystill own.
No-transcript.
(09:13):
And what we were told by manypeople who had worked for them
is that what's going on inCanada is a fiber grab.
That's why they just closethose mills and every time they
want more fiber.
For example, in Saskatchewanright now they keep saying
they're going to open one of themills that's been hibernating
if they get access to moreboreal forests in Saskatchewan.
There are people fighting thatin Saskatchewan who have been in
(09:35):
touch with me.
They feel like they're dealingwith the same company.
So they get government money,they close the mills anyway and
then they open it again if theyget more forests and that seems
to be the way that they operate.
And here in Nova Scotia becausewe had one premier who was a
(09:58):
very stubborn guy and didn'tlike being threatened told them
they had to close that effluentfacility which was called Boat
Harbor and didn't give in totheir pressure, and so they had
to close the pulp mill in 2020,at which point Northern Pulp,
(10:18):
owned by Paper Excellence, ownedby the Wijaya family that's
worth $10 billion, owned by theWijaya family that's worth $10
billion declared bankruptcy andwent into creditor protection in
the British Columbia SupremeCourt.
Their largest creditor isthemselves Paper Excellence, and
the second creditor is NovaScotia government, which is
(10:39):
still owed $86 million andthey're not repaying that while
they're in court.
Owed $86 million and they'renot repaying that while they're
in court.
Meanwhile, they continue toharvest on Nova Scotia Crown
land, on their own land thatthey haven't repaid the people
of Nova Scotia.
They got a loan of $75 millionfrom the people of Nova Scotia
to buy 475,000 acres.
(11:01):
They harvest on that land, butthey're not repaying that loan.
75,000 acres.
They harvest on that land, butthey're not repaying that loan.
And when you speak aboutcorporate capture in the
forestry industry, I think NovaScotia could actually could
write a whole monologue on it.
So the former premier of NovaScotia, progressive conservative
, john Hamm, in 2002, extendedthe lease with the company,
(11:28):
which has changed hands fivetimes.
It went through five Americanowners before it was bought by
Paper Excellence Gave thoseowners until he just extended
the lease on that pulp milleffluent facility until 2030,
like that.
When he left office he becamechair of the board, and he was
(11:48):
chair of the board of NorthernPulp from 2010 until 2020 when
the mill closed.
And former ministers whom Iinterviewed for the book I wrote
about this pulp mill told methat this former premier, john
Hamm, every time the governmentor minister changed, he would
just walk right through thedepartment introducing everybody
to the executives of thiscompany.
(12:10):
So it's serious corporatecapture plus our Department of
Natural Resources and Renewables.
Basically, all the three peopledeciding forestry policies in
Nova Scotia had come from pulpmills, one from Resolute, one
from the Stora Enso pulp mill inPort Hawkesbury, and those were
(12:31):
the people who basically havebeen making forestry policies in
Nova Scotia for the last fewyears.
And I suspect though I have nobasis to say this, but I have a
hunch if you look in otherprovinces you'll probably find
very similar patterns I feellike the forestry sector has had
(12:53):
even less scrutiny than the oiland gas sector in Canada.
Of all the extractive industries, I think even the mining sector
sometimes gets more scrutinythan the forestry sector does.
So that's kind of the NorthernPulp saga in a nutshell, I
should just add, if you want totalk about tactics and bullying,
(13:15):
after my book came out, theyrefused to allow me, they didn't
give me any interviews, paperexcellence and their
communications person,unbeknownst to me, a month or so
before the book was evenpublished, sent a letter out to
all former employees andemployees of the Northern Pult
Mill and it was a form letterwith a form for them to send off
(13:39):
to Chapters Indigo in Torontoand to the local bookstores,
saying that if I were allowed topromote my book in their stores
or do any signings, they wouldorchestrate a nationwide boycott
of those bookstores.
So my book signing wascancelled because the bookstore
(14:04):
owner was threatened.
And she was told by some of thepaper excellence employees that
they would come in and tear itup in the mall and destroy
everything.
So that's how they operate Ifthey don't get what they want,
they bully.
Which is why I say I feel likethe forestry sector has an
(14:25):
undeserved mythological goodreputation in Canada and as a
non-forestry expert, I am also amember, because I'm a woodlot
owner.
I'm a member of a forestrycooperative here in Nova Scotia
and I spend a lot of timetalking to the professionals who
(14:48):
work there, who do theecological forestry and who are
very much geared towards tryingto reestablish the Wabanaki
Indigenous Forest, and theyagree with me.
Actually, I'm learning fromthem.
A lot of this stuff doesn'tcome from me.
It comes from these people whohave worked inside the
industrial forestry sector andpretty are extremely
(15:10):
disillusioned by it.
I've been I'm not exaggeratingto say that I've been.
we now have qualified to beable to run commercials on our
(15:32):
podcast.
This may not seem like a goodthing for some people, but for
us at the clear cut, it's a verygood thing.
It means that you are public,are now downloading over a
thousand copies of each episodea month, which is fantastic, and
it puts us into a new bracketwhere people want to actually
advertise on the podcast.
(15:52):
We are going to do our verybest to make sure that the ads
that run on the podcast aresomething that may be of
relevance or of interest to you,and hope that you can listen to
these ads and see them as amarker of success and your faith
in the podcast.
So thank you so much forlistening to the Clear Cut.
I know that, kaya, and Iappreciate it, so very, very
(16:13):
much, thank you.
I want to provide a little bitof contrast, because I think
that there are companies outthere that Joan's talked about,
but I also know some companieswhere we've had progressive
companies who want to do some ofthe right things, and we've
seen some of them.
(16:34):
I know one company in Quebecwhere their chief forester went
to work for the crown or workfor the province, and she's
fantastic.
I think she's great, she knowswhat she's doing.
So we've seen, uh, really goodforesters move back and forth
between governments and industryand so just um, just to put
(16:55):
that into context a little bit,and then I would.
to speak to the lack of choicesfor small mafia.
, that between a rock and a hardplace when industries are.
Maybe it's a one-industry town,maybe it's a two-industry town,
(17:17):
but I mean the fact thatcompanies can ask for these
letters to be signed or forpeople.
We've had experiences inOntario where people get bused
from one location to another togo and protest against the
environmental groups coming intotown.
I've personally had people, youknow, yelling and screaming at
me, et cetera, even when you'rein there to try and actually do
(17:39):
a collaborative approach andwork with the company on a
forest management plan, and sothere is on a forest management
plan, and so there is thischallenge to livelihoods and to
people's existence that I think,also keeps them enthralled to
what industry wants or can maketheir demands very threatening
(18:02):
to their own lives.
So yeah, I just wanted tocomment on that.
Oh, I mean absolutely.
I have so much s ympathy forthe small operators and, as I
say, even 40 years ago everysmall town had a small mill that
was supplied by localcontractors and when this big
pulp mill came in, they actuallyhad their own hired contractors
(18:26):
.
So they took the load, theytook the responsibility and they
went out and they did theiroperations themselves.
Over the years they'veoutsourced it and, as we know,
if you're a forestry contractorand you want to operate in the
modern industrial sector, you'vegot to invest a million dollars
in machinery or two million,which means you're totally
(18:46):
beholden to the bank and ifyou're not going to have your
house and your machine seized,you have to run the thing 24/7.
And they are.
They're really caught in a verydifficult position because
that's what they've beenrelegated to, because the
industrial forestry sector, verymuch like agriculture, has
forced them to go into so muchdebt to compete and they
(19:09):
actually did decimate the jobs.
They've reduced the number ofjobs in the forestry sector in
Nova Scotia, absolutelyincredibly, by a factor of 10 or
100.
I can't remember the actualfigure, but there used to be so
many more people who couldactually make a living working
in the forest.
Who can't?
Now?
Because you can't unless youhave one of those giant machines
(19:31):
.
Now, as I say the forestry co-opwith whom I work they don't get
to tell landowners what they'regoing to do.
They offer them the options andthen it's up to the private
landowners to decide how they'regoing to manage the work done
on their land.
And the operators of thosemachines I mean the family that
(19:54):
actually did the work on ourproperty.
They're like ballet dancerswith those machines.
What they can do if they wantto and if they're allowed to is
amazing.
But very often they're notallowed to because it's not the
most profitable way to work inthe forest.
And they agonize over it aswell.
(20:15):
I don't want to.
Demon's small contractors arebeholden to their debts, while
the big companies seeminglyaren't.
That's interesting, and they'renot the members of FPAC who are
(20:39):
driving this stuff.
Jan Sumner (20:42):
I mean, FPAC has a lot of members, Just to be clear
.
There's quite a few membersacross Canada.
But I have a recent experiencewith a company that we worked
with last year in Ontario thathad Indigenous-owned contractors
who ran their machines andagain they had to mortgage
(21:04):
everything to get those machinesand it requires them to be run
at a fairly high rate and thenif one of them breaks down,
that's the livelihood, that'sall of their assets.
It's very, very difficult.
Joan Baxter (21:26):
Yeah, it's tough.
I mean this particular campaign.
I also wanted to mention to youthat I also lurk on Twitter X
(21:49):
and this article was tweeted outand I had a response from
somebody who is head of mediaand campaigns for energy cities
in Brussels in Europe, and hewrote we have similar campaigns
here in Europe.
The name of this one isalarmingly close the one that
they have there to the one youwrote about in Canada.
So this isn't even somethinglimited to Canada.
(22:13):
I think this is a worldwidephenomenon.
Kaya Adleman (22:18):
And I think there's a fiber shortage and so
there's a fiber grab going on.
Yeah, that's the informationthat you'll see on your social
media pages.
Is forestry for the future orwhatever other uh
industry-backed campaign, butnot journalist written pieces
like deforestation inc and yourwork in the halifax examiner
Joan Baxter (22:37):
Well, that's the frustrating irony, isn't it that
I dissected this campaign, butmy article can't be shared on
facebook.
But I still had to keep lookingat their posts, which can be.
Jan Sumner (22:49):
Yeah, and the one that you were talking about, the
broad campaign, but I guessinvestigation, was it
Deconstruction or DeforestationInc.
Joan Baxter (23:00):
Deforestation Inc and it was as I say, it was last
year.
It involved 350 media outletsaround the world, from Myanmar
to Brazil to Spain, everywherespearheaded by the International
Consortium of InvestigativeJournalists, and it was kind of
two-pronged.
They were looking atcertification schemes, schemes
(23:32):
so Forest Stewardship Council,sfi and really critical of FSC
actually, which is the goldstandard for certification
schemes but been very seriouslyweakened over the years, and
they found a lot of gaps wherethey weren't monitoring.
Even FSC was not monitoringthings.
So that's they and that wasworldwide, and it was called
Deforestation Inc.
(23:52):
There were literally thousandsof articles that emerged from it
.
But the articles that we, theCanadians and people in France
published actually led to and wewere focused much more on paper
excellence and the fiber grabin Canada and the origins of
paper excellence and thefinancing behind it, which had
(24:14):
been from China.
Back in the 2000s.
Our articles led NDP MP CharlieAngus to ask for an
investigation into paperexcellence in the Natural
Resources Standing Committee,which happened actually, and
(24:37):
they invited the ostensibleowner of paper excellence,
jackson Wijaya, who doesn't livein Canada, he has houses in
Indonesia and London and allsorts of places,
multi-multi-millionaire, part ofthis gazillionaire family.
They invited him to come andappear before the committee and
(25:00):
twice he declined, twice Infront of Canada's elected
parliamentarians.
The next step would have beento pass a resolution that would
have issued a summons, which isquite rare.
And if that happened whichdidn't happen because the
Conservative Party startedfilibustering that committee on
(25:22):
on Oil and Gas and TransitionAct acts bills then if Jackson
Wijaya set foot in Canada hecould have been officially
escorted into Canada's House ofCommons.
But that didn't go that farbecause, as I say, the committee
got distracted and filibusteredby the Conservatives on other
(25:46):
issues, got distracted andfilibustered by the
Conservatives on other issues,but it was still quite a snub by
a company that is now thebiggest, has the biggest market
share in Canada it is 21,.
22% of Canada's forestry sectoris in the hands of this one man
.
Supposedly that he snubbedCanada's elected officials and
wouldn't even appear in front ofthem to answer questions about
(26:07):
who owns what and what theirreal intentions are in Canada.
That didn't get much mediaagain, but it got some, and if
those media could be shared onFacebook and Instagram it would
have even more publicity andmaybe other media would have
picked it up.
Jan Sumner (26:32):
But yeah, well, it sounds pretty daunting even for
a province to take on some ofthat, because that's the other
thing is, much of this isdisaggregated across the country
and, as you're saying, hal, youknow, in Nova Scotia there was
a premier who said you know what, I'm not going to accept this
and decided to push back, yetstill it ends up in a court in
british columbia that's beingfought and they still don't have
the money.
And what was it?
(26:53):
173 million or something theystill owe.
Joan Baxter (26:57):
They owe 86, but I forgot to mention that actually
they're suing the province for450 million for premature,
premature closing of the pulpmill.
Gotcha Because they said theywere allowed to use that pulp
effluent treatment center until2030 because a former premier
had signed off on that.
So, in addition to the factthat they're not repaying the
(27:18):
debt, this gazillionaire company, they're also suing the
province of Nova Scotia for anamount that could exceed $450
million.
And all of that is behindclosed doors mediation in the
Supreme Court of BritishColumbia, which, as Nova
Scotians like to point out, isvery odd, since Northern Pulp is
(27:40):
in Nova Scotia.
Yeah, very odd, but again itspeaks to how much power and
money these corporations have
Jan Sumner (27:53):
And also how frustrating it must be.
I mean, those are taxpayerdollars that are going to fight
that lawsuit and every day incourt is going to cost you a lot
of money.
So it's not just what's owed,but it's also what you're being
sued for, and then all of theamount of time that you have to
spend doing that and it losescomplete sight of sustainability
.
And if we have good jobs, inthe forest
Joan Baxter (28:22):
I mean another angle of this PR thing ( and I'm
not sure, I see it a lot in thesort of small local
publications that still exist,media publications that still
exist, m any of them are kind ofa one-person or one-family
operation, but the way many ofthe large forestry corporations
operate and many of the largecorporations operate is, you
know, they suck up public moneyto the tune of tens, to the
(28:44):
hundreds of millions.
They sue when they don't getwhat they want.
I operation) paper excellence,has had nova scotia in court I
can't remember how many times Ithink six since about 2014
because they wanted them to useless water, they wanted them to
reduce their emissions, andevery time, every step of the
way, they go to court and fightit.
And at the same time, one ofthese Paper Excellence is a
(29:09):
master of this they'll hand out$25,000 to a local firefighter
group or they'll hand out$50,000 to one First Nation, and
that gets more headlines thantheir pollution.
And it works, unfortunately,because they hand out a press
(29:30):
release.
It gets printed in a localnewspaper and then it gets
picked up by the echo chamberand those things can show up on
Facebook and Meta.
So that's another angle tothese campaigns that works
really, really well and makespeople think that these are
benevolent just benevolentcorporations
Jan Sumner (29:52):
Or even say there's two sides to the equation.
They did this, but they alsodid this right, so it it sends a
mixed message into the uh tothe sphere
Joan Baxter (30:02):
And I mean these amounts of money they give out
is just it's not even pocketchange for them.
So it's the stuff that wouldfall out of their pockets if
they were walking down thestreet.
Jan Sumner (30:22):
But it's pretty incredible that you had 300
journalists, investigativejournalists, come together.
I mean while we've seen tTraditional media and the new,
newly coming to the fore mediathat is still fact-checked and
produces journalism in a goodway.
We're still seeing all of that,uh, now amalgamating, sometimes
in these ways that are reallypowerful, because that was.
I read a lot of the articles onthat deforestation,
(30:42):
deforestation inc and it you.
It really gives you a differentworldview and it's almost like
unchained right, because you'renot even you're allowed to
report on these things and getto others.
But 300 coming together is animmense opportunity.
Joan Baxter (30:58):
Those were very interesting Zoom meetings.
I bet, I bet, I betThe european media, I mean, um,
(31:19):
germany still has very goodpublicly funded media, um, and
people pay more taxes to getthat in in europe than they do
here.
So so the European media havenot been as badly decimated in
recent years as have NorthAmerican media, and I mean
Canada is in a particularly diresituation.
When I was in journalism schoolback decades ago, I can
(31:41):
remember the studies then, theThompson's report, you know,
saying that every town had tohave two different media outlets
or newspapers, and they wereconcerned then about the
concentration of ownership.
And now you look across thecountry and there's almost
nothing left except, you know,the hedge fund owned right wing
(32:04):
National Post, the globe andmail, which has always had a
certain line, and, in a very,very pro-business uh, the
toronto star, which was alsosold off, and then the closure
of all of these small mediaoutlets.
I know that this isn't specificto our forestry discussion, but
(32:25):
it's specific to every issue,really, because people aren't
informed anymore.
It used to be that the peopleeven when I was researching for
the pulp mill book and that wasin 2016-17, I would go into the
archives and find a little tinyNew Glasgow thing, evening news,
(32:45):
and it was as thick as atelephone directory.
Every single tiny community hadsomebody reporting from there.
So people knew what was goingon in their own community and in
their own local government,their own provincial government
and federal government andthat's gone.
And I find it really, reallyworrisome.
(33:06):
So even if you, no matter whatissue you're fighting and I'll
take the example again of ourpoor friends who are down there
camping out that was in thewinter, by the way, during that
big dump of snow we got, theywere still there they don't get
the media coverage they wouldhave got before because there's
so little left and I think, butthere they they are, they're
(33:32):
still out there.
I mean, I really have greatfaith in canadian
citizens
Jan Sumner (33:36):
yeah, and we turn increasingly to the social media
channels because we aren'tgetting the media from, uh you
know, sources that can be reliedon and that gets skewed, as you
said, by these uh big, uh pr
campaigns and a lot of sorry.
Joan Baxter (33:52):
Did you make yourself read any of the
comments?
Because the comments are in thethousands and actually I found
some of the comments quiteencouraging
Jan Sumner (34:00):
yeah, no, the comments are quite good.
um, I, I do find it, uh itencouraging that we're starting
to see this.
Journalists tackle this, and itis context setting.
Well, it's not all aboutforestry.
It does set the context, forhow does forestry get reported?
How do we hold forestrycompanies accountable?
(34:20):
How can governments be evenhelped in holding forestry
companies accountable?
Because corporate capturehappens a lot in the absence of
the public being able to seethis, and so if you have the
resources, if you have theability to go in and talk to
governments multiple times andthat transparency is not out
(34:42):
there in the public, thenobviously the politicians are
going to be listening to youbecause they hear you the most.
So it's all context setting allcontext setting
Joan Baxter (34:53):
Absolutely, and I don't know what's going on at
the level of all the differentprovinces.
I've kept close track.
I suspect that it's probablysomething that's a very similar
message with all the provincialforest associations in nova
scotia.
They they don't call themselvesthe nova scotia forest products
association anymore.
They now call themselves forestnova scotia, which is
(35:16):
delightfully benign, um, butthey also.
The first thing you see ontheir, their website is that
forestry combats climate change.
So there's certainly um peopleworking on fantastic rebrand
messaging therefore, their firstblog is, you know, forestry, a
(35:39):
proactive approach to wildlifeprevention.
So it's it.
You know, you can see that.
You can see they're workingwith professional message
massagers to get the samemessage out everywhere, and it's
very powerful again, becausethat's what people are hearing
(36:00):
and seeing.
Oh, and they're starting theirown podcast too, by the way
Forest.
Massage.
Oh fun Coming soon.
Jan Sumner (36:06):
Well, I think it's tough because people want you
know.
You look out at the forest andyou want it to be true.
You want it to be true thatforestry is going to help you
with climate change.
I do believe forests will helpus with climate change if we
don't manage them to death, andso forestry is a very different
(36:31):
kettle of fish.
Joan Baxter (36:35):
When the Northern Pulp Mill was fighting for its
life against the premier andthey were really trying to mount
a campaign to convince thepremier to extend their use of
that effluent facility so thatthey could keep running forest,
nova scotia came up with acampaign called nova scotia
needs forestry and the ecologyaction center made a little
(36:59):
sticker with an s on it so thatpeople were going around and
removing the ry at the end of itand putting an S on it.
Jan Sumner (37:10):
That's the thing is it gets translated in your head.
Is for us, Right?
And that's the that's, that'sthe difficulty.
So we're, we're almost out oftime, Joan.
I just wanted to ask are thereany things that so?
Why do you get up in themorning and write Cause, cause?
Do you have hope?
Do you?
Are you just sheerdetermination and anger and
(37:32):
stick-to-itiveness?
Is it just?
You know good, is it like?
What is it that motivates joanbaxter?
Is it?
Is it?
Uh, yeah, do you have hope?
Kaya Adleman (37:41):
yeah, and where can we?
Where can we read your work?
Um, not on meta platforms.
Joan Baxter (37:50):
Well, first of all, right now I mean, as I say,
I've been writing for theHalifax Examiner primarily, and
I've also been writing for theEnergy Mix, so on climate change
issues and on green hydrogenand associated issues, which
also then they all startoverlapping because the green
hydrogen would be producers herein Nova Scotia want to
basically cover the entireprovince with giant wind
(38:12):
turbines, which will reallyimpact the remaining forests.
So do I have hope?
I wouldn't do all this stuff ifI didn't have hope.
I would just stay in bed withthe pillow over my head.
But you have't have hope.
I would just stay in bed withthe pillow over my head, but you
have to have hope.
I think that's what makes humanbeings human beings, I mean,
(38:34):
from the beginning of time youalways have hope, doing this
again and again and again andbeing beaten down.
But then I look around me and Iam surrounded by and in touch
with all of the people who careabout the environment in Nova
Scotia do reach out to thejournalists and it's the amount
(38:58):
of caring that really keeps megoing.
And there's, you know, there'sa forest school not far from
where I live and I went andspent a day there with these
kids and I'm getting goosebumpstalking about it right now I
could probably start to cry.
That gave me hope.
(39:19):
If you take a kid into thewoods, they will never come out,
and they haven't said.
I said well, you know, aren'tyou bored here?
They said, no, we're bored whenwe're at home.
There's nothing boring in here.
So those are the things that dogive me hope.
And right across the countryI've been, you know, as I say,
I'm contacted by people inSaskatchewan and British
(39:41):
Columbia all facing the samething, and I see more and more
of the groups across the countrytrying to link up with each
other, which I find reallyencouraging.
So, yeah, I have hope.
There are definitely moments,I'm sure we all have them, but
yeah.
Jan Sumner (39:59):
I have hope.
Kaya Adleman (40:02):
And what's the title of your book?
Joan Baxter (40:04):
It's just called the Mill.
50 Years of Pulp, pulp andprotest, and it's time for a
sequel.
I thought I was finished withthe story, but it goes on.
It's a story that never ends,oh goodness so where?
Jan Sumner (40:21):
where can we get your book?
Joan Baxter (40:23):
that is a really good question.
I know that you can order itonline and it's available as an
e-book as well, and I know thatNimbus here in Nova Scotia was
distributing the hard copies.
But I suspect if you do somesearching online you'll find
it's available, hopefully.
I should probably find out ifit's gone out of print, but it
(40:46):
hadn't last time I checked.
It's gone out of print, but ithadn't last time I checked
Jan Sumner (40:49):
Well, I certainly signed up for the Halifax
Examiner.
As soon as I read your articleI was like, oh, I have to get
more of Joan.
Yeah, I absolutely have to getmore of Joan
Joan Baxter (40:57):
Well, I'm really pleased that you did.
I'm really grateful too, yeah,and I'm really grateful for all
the work that you do and foryour podcast which I've also
signed up for.
Jan Sumner (41:16):
Okay, one of the things I learned was Joan's also
a woodlot owner which.
I hadn't known when we starteddown this trail with Joan and
she speaks about her work thatshe did as part of Deforestation
Inc.
And 300 journalists, and Ithought it was funny when she
said those Zoom calls weresomething else.
I mean, you've got all thosedifferent time zones.
(41:37):
I remember just last week wewere trying to put together some
work with a time zonedifference with Central Europe
and Western Canada and mesitting here in Toronto and that
was a nightmare.
I can't imagine trying to do300 journalists around the world
and having a conversation aboutforestry.
(41:58):
It must have been anorganizational nightmare.
But kudos and if you haven'tseen the website, go check it
out there's lots of stories onthere.
Again, it's heavily researchedand it included the CBC and
others that participated in this, along with Joan who was
writing for the Halifax Examiner, and many others around the
(42:19):
globe.
So I think you'll find theinformation there really quite
enlightening.
And you know, I was really blownaway by all the research that
Joan has done the book thatshe's put out.
It was disheartening to hearabout some of the work that was
being done to block the bookbeing promoted or out there.
(42:42):
Yeah, it's unfortunate whencompanies have to resort to that
.
If they're feeling that they'rea great company and they're
doing good work, they should beproud to take on the criticism
and answer the questions.
So I'm surprised at that.
It's unfortunate.
Kaya Adleman (43:04):
Yeah, I think what stands out to me I don't think
we've talked about this in suchgreat detail, but it's this idea
that I guess in our currentsystem and the way that the
forest industry and a lot ofindustries are structured, is
that, as a smallholderespecially, it's only profitable
in its ecologically destructivestate, and the idea that if you
want to be a participant inthis forestry marketplace, you
(43:26):
have to go into up to millionsof dollars of debt and in order
to not default on those debts,you have to operate the
machinery you took out loans forat that max capacity.
That idea really stood out tome as a market inefficiency and
something that definitely Ithink needs to be addressed,
(43:46):
especially if we're going tomove forward and truly make
forestry more sustainable and,you know, be on track to meet
our climate and biodiversitycommitments.
Jan Sumner (43:57):
It's definitely something that needs to be yeah,
it gets to be a self-fulfillingproblem, right?
So, for example, if you've tobe able to qualify to harvest in
that area, you need to be ableto harvest at a certain level.
So you need certain equipmentthat can harvest at that rate of
harvesting, and that means youneed a feller, buncher and you
need the specialized equipment.
(44:18):
And these pieces of machineryare enormous right Standing next
to them.
They are much larger than anindividual and they have to be
able to reach out and grab agreat big group of trees and
pull them in all at the sametime.
So that's not something that youknow lightweight machinery can
do, and sometimes it stalls inthe middle of the day or you've
(44:39):
got a problem or something youknow your energy source might
have run dry, whatever it is.
You've got all kinds ofvariables and that cuts into
your profits, and if you'veliterally had to mortgage to get
that piece of machinery, it'syour lifeblood.
It basically is between asuccessful harvest and something
(45:02):
that can make money and not.
And that's because we have toharvest at that scale, and if we
weren't harvesting that scale,could we have machinery that had
a lighter touch at a differentapproach and what's also
interesting and I don't have thefacts right now to back me up
but I believe there has been atrend over many, many years that
(45:23):
we're actually harvesting, youknow, at a rate that is much
higher than we did at one time,but the number of jobs has
actually decreased because ofmechanization.
So we've been able to mechanizemany of these jobs, which has
decreased the number of jobs,even though we might be at the
same, or even increasedproduction.
(45:44):
So yeah, it's a challenge.
Kaya Adleman (46:02):
Yeah, and it does get back to these core themes.
So, yeah, it's a challenge forus to try to think of how to do
more sustainable, moreecologically sensitive second
growth harvesting.
It makes it hard to be aparticipant in that industry.
Jan Sumner (46:19):
Yeah, the money's just not there.
What I was left with is thisjust again creates the question
in my mind how could we actuallystart to change how we do
things?
And I've always thought of it,and I mentioned this a little
bit earlier is it's where weharvest, how we harvest and how
much we harvest?
And those are the questions Ithink the central questions that
(46:41):
we need to answer, especiallyas we reach.
In some areas, we've alreadyconverted the forest and so
we're now at second growth andwe need to be rethinking how
we're doing things.
Kaya Adleman (46:52):
Yeah, great conversation today.
Yeah, likewise, and if you wantto read any article further
articles about this you won'tfind them on Facebook or meta
platforms, but you can go to ourshow notes, where we will have
all the articles linked on ourweb page.
Yeah, feel free to share ourshow notes.
Jan Sumner (47:14):
Yes, I think you can share those, probably on social
media.
Yeah, definitely, definitelyyou can.
You can also share the podcast,obviously, and allow people to
listen to this and make theirown decisions.
I mean, you know, you are allreally intelligent people and
you'll make your own decisionsand you'll you'll either agree
or disagree and come to someother conclusions, but we wanted
to make sure we offer this sothat public relations materials
(47:36):
weren't landing in a in a voidof other information.
So thanks for listening.
Kaya Adleman (47:41):
Yeah, thanks Joan, and thanks Jan.
Jan Sumner (47:44):
If you like listening to the clear cut and
want to keep the content coming,support the show.
It would mean a lot to Kai andI.
The link to do so will be inthe episode description below.
Kaya Adleman (47:55):
You can also become a supporter by going to
our website atwwwwildlandsleagueorg.
Slash the clear cut and alsomake sure to leave us a review
on your favorite podcaststreaming platform.
It would really help thepodcast and stay tuned for new
episodes by following us onsocial media.
Jan Sumner (48:16):
That's at Wildlands League on Instagram, twitter and
Facebook or LinkedIn, of course.
Kaya Adleman (48:22):
See you next time.
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