Mountaineer Jenn Drummond shares her journey from finance executive to world record holder, revealing how a near-fatal car accident transformed her definition of success into one focused on experiences rather than achievements. Her powerful "people over peaks" philosophy guides her approach to leadership, family life, and setting world records.
• Discovered mountaineering after a life-changing car accident redirected her priorities
• Set the world record as first woman to climb all seven second summits
• Chose her team over her summit attempt on K2 after a tragic avalanche
• Developed "Break Proof" resilience strategies applicable to business and personal goals
• Approaches failure as an opportunity that often leads to unexpected positive outcomes
• Uses "acclimatization" as a metaphor for sustainable personal growth
• Transformed her approach to motherhood while pursuing world-class mountaineering
• Created intentional pattern interruptions like "trigger meditation" and "gratitude light"
• Emphasizes the importance of honesty in high-pressure communication
• Believes making challenging pursuits fun dramatically increases endurance
Jenn's book "Break Proof: Seven Strategies to Build Resilience and Achieve Your Life Goals" is available now wherever books are sold.
Hey leader! Thanks for listening. For more leadership communication tips, check out https://www.thecommunicativeleader.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we have the honor of
speaking with Jen Drummond, apioneering adventurer,
motivational speaker and thefirst woman to scale all seven
summits of the world's secondhighest peaks.
In this episode, entitledBreaking Boundaries, resilience
and Leadership, we're going todive deep into Jen's journey of
(00:23):
transformation and theincredible power of resilience.
Following a life-changing caraccident in 2018, Jenn turned
her challenges into catalystsfor growth, embracing a journey
that blends adventure withpersonal development.
As the author of BreakproofSeven Strategies to Build
Resilience and Achieve your LifeGoals, Jenn shares her insights
(00:45):
on cultivating resilience,leadership and the courage to
pursue your dreams.
Currently training to conquerMount Denali this May, jen's
experiences in mountaineeringand business equip her to
inspire individuals and teams toovercome obstacles and embrace
their potential.
In this conversation, sherecounts her incredible journey,
(01:08):
explains the strategies shedeveloped to build resilience
and sheds light on how tocultivate a fearless mindset in
the face of adversity.
Jen is a wealth of wisdom andjust a whole lot of fun too.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and I know that you
will as well.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
(01:30):
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert On theCommunicative Leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Jen, welcome to theCommunicative Leader.
(01:53):
I'm so excited for ourconversation today, but before
we dive in, I was hoping youcould share a bit about your
background for our listeners.
So, specifically, how did youget into mountaineering and what
are some of your careerhighlights?
Jenn Drummond (02:07):
Yeah.
So I was in finance and ran acompany there, hired myself out
of a job so I could be astay-at-home mom Once my kids
got into school full-time.
I was kind of likesoul-searching what do I want to
do now that I have some morefree time ahead?
And I actually got into a caraccident that should have killed
(02:28):
me and thankfully didn't, whichsent me on this trajectory of,
instead of maybe, success in thetraditional sense.
I was like I want to know whatit feels like to swim in the
Great Barrier Reef or to tastepasta in Italy, or to climb a
mountain or like just moreexperience-based, and so I
(02:49):
decided to climb a mountain formy 40th birthday.
My son increased that goal toclimbing Everest, and then my
coach increased that goal tosetting a world record.
So things got big fast.
Dr. Leah OH (03:03):
That is absolutely incredible and I love that it is
so experience-based and not theoh, I've got to go from this
position in the corporatehierarchy to this where it's
like let's expand that.
Jenn Drummond (03:16):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's just so easy totake society's definition of
success and then we really justneed to pause and be like well,
what does it mean to me and whatdo I want my life to look like?
Because I don't live on thisplanet forever, so how do I
maximize my time here to livethe best life that I feel?
Dr. Leah OH (03:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, that is beautiful, jen.
So let's think about yourleadership philosophy.
So you are clearly a leader inboth mountaineering and business
, and I'm wondering how yourleadership style, how this, has
evolved over time and what aresome of those principles that
you consider foundational toyour approach?
Jenn Drummond (03:56):
Yeah, this has been tested multiple times, but
I really feel I have the sayingthat people over peaks right.
So when you're on the mountain,when you're building a company,
when you're raising your family, just making sure you're always
putting the people first.
When I was climbing K2, whichis one of the deadliest
(04:16):
mountains in the world, we did.
We had a tragedy, we had anavalanche.
Take out one of my team membersand you read about it, but you
don't expect it to happen to you.
And so this event happens.
And I actually wasn't.
I was a day ahead of the teamat this point, so I wasn't at
the scene of the accident.
But I was given a choice toeither continue to climb or to
(04:41):
come back down.
And I just remember sittingthere thinking you know, I'm a
day from the summit and I'vebeen here for weeks and it's
money and training and all thethings, but there's no way I can
climb this mountain Like I needto go down and take care of my
team, like this mountain willalways be here.
I can always come back to climbit, but who I show up as is way
(05:04):
more important than what Iachieve.
So how am I showing up?
So I went down to take care ofmy team member and, you know,
had like an impromptu funeral,flew home and my kids came home
from camp a couple of days laterand I'll never forget.
They're like, mom, mom, did yousummit?
And I'm like, no, I didn't, butI had success.
(05:26):
They looked at me confused,like what do you mean?
And I'm like, well, success ishow we show up.
What people are going toremember about us, who we are as
individuals, what our valuesare and are we going to live
them when we're tested.
And so I'm proud of the personthat I showed up as.
So to me, that's success.
Like, well, you're going tohave to go back and climb the
mountain.
I'm like, yeah, I am going toneed to go back and climb the
(05:48):
mountain, and that's okaybecause mountains will always be
there.
And so if we build companies orwe lead where people know that
they're more important than thepeak or the profit that we're
making, like the game changes.
Dr. Leah OH (06:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And what a beautiful thing tomodel for, of course, your team
and for your children.
And I think peopleunderestimate how much that
modeling kind of has roots andgoes out, because then your kids
too.
They might not say people overpeaks, but I'm sure you see
instances when they're makingthat right choice, and your team
(06:26):
members too, the way thatthey're showing up and caring
for others.
So I really want to raise upthat amazing leadership example,
jen.
Jenn Drummond (06:35):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, Thank you.
Dr. Leah OH (06:38):
So let's talk about your book.
So Break Proof.
Seven Strategies to BuildResilience and Achieve your Life
Goals.
Jenn Drummond (06:49):
Can you kind of talk us through the inspiration
for this?
Yeah, you know, I think whathappens is you have this
life-altering event, which forme was the car accident.
For other people it could belike a job change or kids
exiting the home or having kids.
You know, like there's thesepivotal moments in our lives
that are like lines in the sand,and when I was building on this
world record, I realizedthere's so many analogies from
(07:13):
mountaineering that go intoregular life and building a
business, and so I wrote thebook to the me before and just
said, okay, listen, here'sthings that if you were to set
out and start a company or builda family or you're going to
achieve an Everest-like goal,there's these things that are
going to happen on every journeyand if you're prepared for them
(07:35):
, then you're going to be betterable to handle them.
When it shows up You're like,oh okay, this is why I'm feeling
this.
Here's what somebody else didto get through this section.
Maybe that will work for me.
Dr. Leah OH (07:46):
Yeah, yeah, that is so powerful, those lessons you
wish you knew, but then alsohelping people.
You know it doesn't mean thatmoment is going to be magically
easy or not feel like achallenge, but you're not
blindsided, so going in, you'reso much better positioned to be
(08:08):
successful.
Jenn Drummond (08:09):
Yeah, Well, just like, I think the unknown is
scary, right.
So when you have that unknownyou're just like, ah, what do I
do?
But then if you read thatunknown in somebody else's story
, now you can reflect it intoyour own and you're like, oh,
this is scary, but this isnormal.
And somehow normal makes iteasier to metabolize.
Dr. Leah OH (08:30):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And when you're not alone likeyou say, it's more like.
This is not just me and otherpeople have overcome it.
I remember my dissertation.
It's just there's so muchwriting and it's at the end.
But I would look at my facultymembers on my committee and all
my great professors.
I'm like they did it.
You can do this too.
Doesn't mean it's going to beeasy, but it is achievable.
Jenn Drummond (08:53):
Yeah, no, definitely, and like one of the
key points out of the book wasbig mountains take big teams
right, Like I think we set theseEverest like goals and expect
ourselves to like get our bunsup the mountain.
Well, guess what?
Like when I climbed Everest, Iwas shocked at how many people
(09:15):
were part of that pursuit.
Right, there's teams managingthe ropes, there's team managing
the tents, the food, the oxygen, the weather.
There's so many people playingtheir little role that I have to
wake up and just walk.
Well, if I only have to wake upand walk and I don't have to
consider the weather or theoxygen or the food or the tent
or whatever, I have way moreenergy and it's a lot easier for
(09:39):
me to climb because I'm notbeing pulled in all these
directions.
And so I just tell people, like, hey, when you hit that moment
of frustration and you're tryingto negotiate with yourself and
say maybe I took on too big of achallenge, maybe you didn't,
maybe you just need more peopleto help you get to the top of
the mountain, yeah, that is sopowerful.
Dr. Leah OH (09:58):
And let's think about resilience, because I know
in your book you discuss anumber of strategies and I was
hoping you could highlight acouple of these for us and kind
of explain how we could use thisprofessionally or even in our
personal lives when things arefeeling just too much yeah.
Jenn Drummond (10:15):
You know, the big thing about resilience is
always being able to come fromour center right.
So if you're coming from anexposed area and then you're
going to keep going more exposed, it's hard to be resilient,
because you're like on thebranch of the tree instead of
the trunk when you're climbing amountain.
There's this thing calledacclimatizing, and so what
(10:36):
happens when you acclimatize isthat, like, so say, you're at
Everspace Camp and you hike upto Camp 1.
Well, when you get up to campone, you're struggling, and the
reason why you're struggling isthere's not enough oxygen in the
air for your body to operateand so you can't go any higher.
Like you literally are tellingyour muscle I need to take a
step, and the muscles like I'mnot getting the signal right, I
(10:59):
don't know what you're talkingabout.
And so you sit like we'd get upto camp one, we would eat lunch
and then we would go all theway back down to base camp,
which at first is sodisheartening.
You're like no, no, no, likeI'm going the wrong direction.
What's going on?
But here's the thing.
Like you get back down to basecamp and over the next three
(11:20):
days that stress causes yourbody to physiologically change
and it makes more red bloodcells.
So then after three days you go, hike up to camp one and you're
like, oh, this isn't bad, I gotthis, we're good, this is easy.
And then you get to camp twoand you start feeling that
(11:40):
feeling of exhaustion, likeyou're a little foggy in the
brain and whatever.
And you sit at camp two and yougo all the way back down to
base camp and that's the thing.
Like we acclimatize.
I think a lot of us think thatwe're going to set this goal and
you just go from base camp tothe top and that's what you do
and it's not really how it worksin life.
(12:01):
Like, how it works in life isyou get to this point where it's
new territory or you'restretched to new, like edges,
and you need to come back to theboardroom or to the kitchen or
to the base camp and say whatdid I learn?
What do I know now that Ididn't know that I've been in
that territory, and what can Iimplement and integrate?
So when I go back there, I'mbetter and it's easier and I'm
(12:26):
stronger, and that's resilienceLike, resilience is being able
to climb down, to climb up andnot lose that momentum because
you understand.
It's part of the process.
Dr. Leah OH (12:36):
Yeah, that is such a powerful illustration.
And I imagine too, with everynew mountain, every summit you
reach, I imagine there aremoments where, like you said
disheartening and that'sprobably a very light word, a
mild word You're like oh, we'vegotten here, we got to go back
down, but what a beautifulillustration for what that looks
(12:56):
like across the board, forwhatever that mountain is we're
working toward.
Jenn Drummond (13:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (13:03):
Wow, that's incredible, jen, and so,
speaking of incredible as afirst woman to conquer the seven
second summits, what were someof the biggest challenges you
faced during these climbs?
And then after that?
I'd love to hear about you know, how overcoming some of those
challenges helped to shape orreshape your approach to life
(13:23):
and leadership.
Jenn Drummond (13:25):
Yeah, you know, I think we get married to
concepts.
So for me, my biggest strugglewith setting this world record
wasn't even the climbing themountains, it was being away
from my children and still beinga good mom, yeah Right.
So, like I had equated being agood mom with time with them,
(13:49):
and the reality is is likethere's people out there that
are home full time with theirkids, but when their kids are
home, they're doing, you know,laundry or cooking dinner or
putting it away, or they'rereally busy with a whole bunch
of things.
And so for me, I had toredefine what a good mom was,
and in that redefinition I hadto be like, okay, well, how am I
(14:11):
going to be a present mom anddo this athletic pursuit that's
going to pull me out of thehouse for two weeks sometimes at
a time.
And so it just got reallyintentional with my time making
sure I did one-on-one time withthe kids, and there was no phone
involved, there was no otheractivity involved.
We were just very much talkingto each other and building that
(14:32):
relationship, and I had torealize like, hey, I'm going to
do life in parallel with them,so they don't want to do their
homework, I don't want to do myworkout.
Like we can talk about thingsthat we both feel the same
frustration.
It just manifests a little bitdifferent based on our ages and
our activities that we're in.
And so the interesting thing isis, like Everest was again.
(14:55):
I wasn't afraid of the mountain, I was afraid of being away
from home.
And so then I, like you do allthe things that a mom does,
right, like you line up, helpyou get carpool figured out,
here's what they're doing.
You have like a 20 pagedocument of like what to do
while I'm gone, and that's dayone, right, and here's how it's
going to go down.
And so then I go to the kid'sschool and I tell the teachers
(15:19):
I'm like, hey, I'm going to begone, I'm climbing Everest, I
have everything lined up.
But can you give my kids alittle bit of grace?
They might not be on their Agame with things chicken up at
home.
And this teacher came back tome and she's like, oh my gosh,
this is amazing.
Would you mind coming in andtalking to the kids about
setting an Everest-like goal,like a hundred percent?
(15:41):
So I went into the school, Ihelped the kids like set these
goals.
They colored little hikers andthey had their flags, and the
flags said I wanted to make likea black diamond ski team or I
wanted to bike to grandma's orget an A on a test or whatever
it was Right.
And then in the front of theschool we put this big mountain
and we had a little hiker.
That was me, because I had atracking device on me so then
(16:05):
the kids could track me andwhere I was going and what I was
doing.
And then at Everest Base Camp Ihad Wi-Fi so I could Zoom, call
into the classrooms and talk tothem about, like, what was
working and what wasn't, andwhere I pooped and what I ate.
You know, like and so like itwas this thing where, sure, I
(16:27):
wasn't the Pinterest mom or thePTA mom or the mom that like,
made every single soccer gamethat season, but I was a mom who
set goals and involved her kidsand, like, the community got
involved.
So, when I climbed Everest,like my kids were so loved on
and so seen and they felt thesupport of a community that if
(16:49):
I'd been home probably wouldn'thave been able to show up the
same way that they did.
And so it just, I think, forany of us setting goals or
trying to achieve big things orleading a team, really question
what your definition of that isand how can you expand that to
include what you're doing andfeel good about it.
Dr. Leah OH (17:13):
Yeah, I love that I'm writing all of these notes
down, jen.
So I just I love that howintegrated that you you brought
your, your children and theirschool and your community into
your goal setting and this giantundertaking and bringing in how
(17:33):
to make your life parallel,like I don't want to do this
workout, you don't want to dothe homework, it's okay, cause a
lot of times we just needsomeone to say like yeah, it
feels really tough right now, orlike that stinks, but we can
still do this.
And then the support, because,like you were saying before, I
think, for whatever reason, itis so hard for us in this
Western society to ask forsupport and to lean on it Right,
(17:58):
like it's a four letterletterword.
Jenn Drummond (18:00):
That's a terrible thing to say right.
And it's crazy when you arewilling to say here's where I'm
at, here's what I'm trying to do, I'm not quite sure how to get
there and I want things to be acertain way.
Then other people get to stepup and be like well, come in and
talk about this or let's dothat, or like it's amazing, when
(18:22):
we're willing to be vulnerablewith where we're like weak or
concerned, how people can fillin the gaps.
Dr. Leah OH (18:29):
Yeah, and I just keep thinking again modeling.
So much of my brain is aboutmodeling leadership.
Right, because a lot of peoplesay I'm not a leader, I'm like,
but you are, whether you'reacknowledging this and embracing
it or not, but showing them thevalue of support, and not just
your children and your family,but the whole school and what
this means for the classmatesand other families going through
(18:51):
things, recognizing that if Isay hey, we've got this or this,
that people will show up andsupport and celebrate them.
Jenn Drummond (18:59):
Yeah, most definitely.
We love to cheer people on,right.
I mean, it's such an honor.
We forget that people love tocheer us on too.
Dr. Leah OH (19:08):
Yes, yes.
So let's shift gears a littlebit and thinking about failure,
which, for a lot of people,again another one of those
four-letter words where a lot ofpeople are like, oh, please
don't say it.
But we know that these can bereally amazing opportunities for
growth.
And you know, every climb comeswith risks and not all climbs
(19:30):
are successful.
And when I was getting readyfor our chat, I was thinking
what a great metaphor for life.
But I was wondering if youcould share a setback you
experienced in climbing or yourcareer, and of how you shifted
that.
How did you turn that into anopportunity for learning or
growth?
Jenn Drummond (19:48):
Yeah, I have the most amazing story that happened
with failure One.
There's failure all the time onthe mountains.
So I had to climb ninemountains to set this world
record, because there's adispute on continents.
So when I climbed nine, it tookthree of them, took twice right
, so I had to go back more thanonce to do them, just because of
weather conditions or my friendthat passed away in the
(20:11):
avalanche and all the littlevariables that are outside of
our control.
The goal is always to come homeright.
When you're building a business, if you're launching a product,
the goal is always come backand still have a business, even
if the product doesn't go.
And so for me, when I failed K2and I needed to go back, I was
(20:31):
not excited about going back.
Now I had this negativeexperience.
So not only do I have to goback into this harsh environment
, but I have to overcome anexperience that was not awesome
and go make it different.
And so, like I'm training, I'mtraining, I'm training, I'm
doing all the things, eventhough I'm not a hundred percent
engaged, because I'm just likeI don't want to go, but I have
(20:53):
to put myself in a position togo.
So I'm going to keep doing thething.
And two weeks before I had toleave for this climb, I got a
phone call.
And the phone call was from anindividual who had been training
to climb the mountain butdidn't have the resources to
make it happen.
And I'm like you know what.
It's so easy for us to getthese things in the United
(21:14):
States.
I'm happy to bring them over.
I'll call my guide, we'll putyou on my team.
This will be fine.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so, all of a sudden, now Ihad a reason bigger than myself
to go back, and this person wason my team and blah, blah, blah,
blah blah.
So I became the third Americanfemale to stand on top of K2 in
2022, which was super exciting.
(21:35):
But even more exciting was, 30minutes later, the first
Pakistani female stood on top ofour country's prize peak.
I had met this individual theyear before and we just stayed
in touch on WhatsApp and I'mlike you know just train like
someday the opportunity willshow up.
So she had been training, andtraining, and training and did
(21:57):
not have the financial resourcesor the things to be able to
make that climb happen.
And because I failed the firsttime and came back and knew her
and was willing to go back andclimb the failed mountain again.
I got to be a part of her story, which was so much more
significant than my own becauseI have twin daughters.
(22:18):
I know how important it is forthem to see people that look
like them in these environments,because it creates this
opportunity in their mind orcuriosity gets planted.
And so now there's a wholebunch of little Pakistani girls,
a whole bunch of little Muslimgirls all over the world that
see somebody that looks likethem on top of one of the most
(22:39):
dangerous peaks in the world andit allows them to say like, wow
, what is possible for me?
And so like, failure a lot oftimes is just this thing that is
either slowing us down to bringother people with us, causing
us to be like, hey, maybethere's a redirect, or maybe we
need to come back with moreresources, more knowledge, a
(23:01):
different day.
It truly is a stepping stone onour journey, and when you can
keep stories on speed dial ofwhere failure has been actually
a good thing for you, it allowsit to be less overwhelming when
it shows up again.
Dr. Leah OH (23:17):
Yeah yeah, I have goosebumps, john, in listening
to that.
And that last phrase let's keepa few stories of failure on
speed dial because, you're right, these happen and they feel so
big and we're like, of courseI'm going to remember that
feeling, but a lot of times wedon't, because we kind of get
lost, we get bogged down in thecurrent failure or hardship or
(23:39):
obstacle and we can't seeclearly.
So I love that idea of kind ofkeeping that on the ready, just
in case to remind yourself thatthis is probably going to be a
springboard.
We might not see how now, butit's likely going to help us get
a place we did not anticipatebefore.
Jenn Drummond (23:58):
Yeah, definitely.
You know, I always think oflike the arrow and the bow right
.
It gets pulled back and thenshot forward, and so just maybe
we're in that section of beingpulled back a second.
Dr. Leah OH (24:10):
Yeah, oh, that's awesome, and so thinking about
kind of diving more into thisarea.
I want to think about risk andreward, and this is when we know
you know, just like failure, alot of people have a hard time
with the word risk and thefeeling of risk, and we know
that what you do involves asignificant level of risk.
(24:31):
So I'm wondering, as someonewho has probably made friends
with risk and reward, I imagine,by this point how do you assess
and manage your risk, both inclimbing endeavors and even in
business, and what advice do youhave for others who are trying
to figure out?
How do I balance this?
You know, taking risks but alsomaking sure that I'm most
(24:54):
likely positioned to come outokay on the other end.
Jenn Drummond (24:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The climbing metaphors are soeasy, but we can apply these to
business.
So for me, when you're climbing, you always have to come home
right.
Getting to the top doesn't meanyou won, like getting home
means you won, and so the top ishalfway right.
So I think a lot of times, ifwe just think of risk and reward
and we are checking in withourselves, do I have enough
(25:20):
runway to make it home?
Do I have enough runway to makeit home?
And that's like a check-inwe're always doing.
The nice thing about climbing isyou're climbing with ropes.
So when you're climbing withropes, that rope might be 120
feet long, okay, so the firstperson goes, they set the rope,
and then the next person comesto them and now you have, like,
(25:40):
all the rope together again.
When you're together again,you're now at a position where
is the weather still favorable?
How are we doing energy wise?
Do we have enough fuel?
Do we have enough Like, isthere enough daylight?
It gives you this automaticcheck in before you go, pull the
rope, taunt again for 120 feetand then do the next section.
And so in business, I think it'sdoing those check-ins.
(26:03):
What does it look like at theend of the week or the end of
the month or the end of thequarter.
There's spaces that we can seeif things are starting to get
derailed and we want to makesure that we're making those
corrections early and often tostay on direction.
If you think of an airplane andit's going from Salt Lake City
to Detroit, if it gets off onedegree early on flight, like
(26:25):
it's not landing in Detroitanymore, right, so it has to
keep course correcting based onwhat's the weather doing, what's
the wind doing, is it blowingme off course, and can you like
just readjust.
And so I think it's thosecheck-ins that we build,
climbing, has it automaticallywith ropes.
We have to set it up weekly,quarterly, monthly to make sure
that we're on track and keepevaluating our risk reward.
Dr. Leah OH (26:49):
Yeah, yeah, that is so helpful and I think you're
right.
I think there are other areasof our life.
When you were talking I wasthinking about years ago with
our first child, brand newparents.
We'd be like the wheels arecoming off and that was our
phrase to be like are theyhungry?
Do they need to be changed?
Like, what did we forget?
Are they cold?
But in work, like you're saying, a lot of times we don't
(27:12):
recognize until like the wheelsare completely off, we skid it
out in this fantastic failure.
But I think it's figuring out.
Is it at the end of each weekwhere I do a quick check-in, is
it in our meetings, adding in adevil's abdicate to say what are
some potential consequences?
(27:33):
But it is funny when you saidthat that I'm realizing that,
yeah, there are a lot of areasin our life where we do
naturally have these check-ins,but we tend to overlook that in
traditional business settings.
Jenn Drummond (27:46):
Yeah, In my personal life I have this little
thing I call it a triggermeditation and every single time
I touch a doorknob, I stop andI take a deep breath and I ask
myself am I on autopilot rightnow, or am I on intention right
now?
And I think so often we justget on autopilot because that's
(28:06):
what we've done and that's whatwe're doing, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah that we forgetto like, get curious and be like
is this even what I want to bedoing?
You know, that's like thebeauty of vacations is you break
, you break pattern, and so thenyou come back and you're like
okay, well, wait a minute, whywere we doing it that way?
Or whatever.
So I do think that intentionalbreak of pattern allows you to
evaluate the pattern and see ifyou want to continue it.
Dr. Leah OH (28:28):
Yeah, yeah.
And I love bringing in thecuriosity too, because I think
that so many times we fallvictim to shame.
Then like why, why would I havedone that?
Why did I?
And being curious is what's abetter approach?
Or how can I do thisdifferently?
Or if I am on autopilot, whyright?
Jenn Drummond (28:45):
How do I change that yeah?
Dr. Leah OH (28:47):
I love that, that with the doorknob I'm going to
be, I'm going to be thinkingabout that and I imagine it'll
probably take me a few days andthen I will be doing it.
Jenn Drummond (29:01):
Yeah, no, it's fine, like, we even do it, as we
have this red light by ourhouse and I'm on the short side
of the red light, so I alwaysgot the red light and I'd be so
angry and bitter Like oh my God,I got the red light again.
And then, finally, one day, Ihad the aha moment of the red
light.
Doesn't care that it's red,only I care that it's red.
And I'm writing this storythat's keeping me stuck and
miserable.
Every single time I hit it red,I'm like I'm going to change
this, and so we now call it ourgratitude light.
(29:23):
And so now, every single timewe hit that light red, it's a
cue to be okay, what am Igrateful for right now in my
life?
And we all have to say it outloud, whoever's in the car.
And then we go to the pointwhere sometimes, if we hit it
green, the kids are like, oh, wedon't get to do our gratitude.
We hit it green, the kids arelike, oh, we don't get to do it
green.
That's what I was just thinking.
How did that narrative change?
So it's just that interruptionto keep us on track.
Dr. Leah OH (29:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love that, and such a great gift to
give to others around you andyourself, yeah.
So, jen, let's dive more deeplyinto communication and
leadership.
Communication is my happy,happy place and I know
communication, especially inhigh pressure situations, is
(30:07):
critical.
So how has effectivecommunication, how has it,
played a role in your climbing,partnership and teams?
And then after that, what aresome of your takeaways for
professionals?
What can they learn from yourexperience with communication?
Jenn Drummond (30:24):
Right.
Well, I'm in life or deathsituations with communication,
so it's critical.
And what it has really taughtme is to just be raw and honest,
right, because then everybodyknows what they're dealing with.
So, for example, I need to knowif you're cold, I need to know
if you're tired or sore orthirsty, because we need to
(30:47):
address that before it becomes aproblem.
And if somebody's gone beforeyou, they'll be like okay,
around this corner the windcomes.
So do you have enough layers onright now?
Are you ready to handle thewind, because we're going to be
in it for this amount of time?
So maybe layer up or layer downor do whatever.
And when you are climbing likeI'm 115 pounds, I am not able to
(31:11):
carry a whole bunch of weightup the mountain.
There's just no way.
I don't have a big enough frameto do it, but I am short, so I
do have a low center of gravityand I can dig.
I can dig out a flat tentground like nobody's business, a
lot easier than somebody who'slike six foot 180, right.
And so just being really honestwith here's what I'm good at,
(31:32):
here's what I'm not good at,here's how I'm feeling right now
and we're ready to go.
And I think when we do that inbusiness too, and we have the
courage to say I'm really goodat making the PowerPoint, I'm
not good at doing thecopywriting, so can somebody
else do that piece?
Or I'm really good at this, canyou do that and just really let
(31:54):
everybody play a piece to thepuzzle.
Dr. Leah OH (31:58):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that, because theneveryone's shining in the areas
that they are, you know, atopstrengths, and not feeling like
they're trying to limp throughan area that they're already
uncomfortable with.
Jenn Drummond (32:11):
Yeah, and when you're in your zone of genius,
like life's good, it's fun, likethis is where I'm at.
So how can you build your day tohave more of your life in that
zone of genius, and who else cancompliment you so that as a
team?
You know, I have a podcast andI interviewed an astronaut a
little bit ago and it wasinteresting.
There was 18,000 people thatapplied to be an astronaut in
(32:34):
her astronaut class and theytake 18.
Okay, and they take 18, andit's like they always have to
have a doctor on the team.
They always have to have amechanical engineer on the team.
They always have to like youcould be the most amazing person
ever, but if they alreadypicked the type of doctor they
(32:54):
need, you're not on the teambecause they filled that spot,
and so it doesn't mean you'rebad, it just means like it
wasn't the synergies of theskill sets that everybody needed
to do.
So the more honest you are, themore you're going to be able to
line up with people that fittogether with you to get things
done.
Dr. Leah OH (33:13):
Yeah, exactly, and I think that's such a powerful
realization that it's not.
Maybe it's not me or it's likeyou said.
I don't have that exactspecialization, but at the same
time, we wouldn't want itbecause we'd be trying to mold
and fit something we're not orthat isn't our top skill, and
that just doesn't make sense foranyone.
Jenn Drummond (33:35):
Yeah, I mean, when we built our Mount Logan
team of three people, there wasno choice, like our third person
had to be a tall, strong personbecause we had there's X number
of weight, and that person hadto be a tall, strong person
because we had there's X numberof weight and that weight had to
get up the mountain.
So at the end of the day, it'slike, okay, here's what I can do
, here's what you can do.
Now we know who we need to hire, because that's the person that
can do that piece, and we can'tget up if we don't get that
(33:57):
settled.
Dr. Leah OH (34:06):
Yeah, exactly, and and so that was already.
That's a great segue.
Jenn Drummond (34:07):
So I want to think about empowering others,
and I know that you aim toencourage others to push beyond
these perceived limitations, andI was hoping you could share an
example with us where eitheryou've seen someone really
transform that mindset andachieve their goals, or, if you
wanted to share a personalexample, if you wanted to share
a personal example, yeah, so Ihave a client who had a
(34:28):
restaurant failure, right, had asuccess with a restaurant, then
had a failure with a restaurantand was looking to get into
starting a new restaurant andkept replaying the tape of the
failure, because it was morerecent, instead of the tape of
the success.
(34:50):
And so we would sit down andwe'd be like, okay, but is that
the old version or is that thenew version?
And being very clear of what isnew and unique about this
situation.
So we weren't bringing theenergy of the old situation in
and I think a lot of times wethink it's a one-time decision.
It is never a one-time decision, okay, like when you're
climbing the mountain and it's20,000 steps to the top, it is
(35:12):
that same decision 20,000 times,okay.
And so for these people, likewhen you're doing something, it
is that decision every step,every day, multiple times, to
get to where you're going andwhatever you need to do to
remember that or to do that orto whatever.
But this now third restaurant,most successful of all of them,
(35:36):
right, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (35:37):
Yeah, because we're taking our successes, we're
taking the lessons that welearned when it didn't go the
way that we had anticipated, andwe're just armed with so much
more knowledge.
Jenn Drummond (35:48):
So much more knowledge right.
Definitely, and you just haveto give yourself permission to
succeed and you have to be yourbiggest cheerleader because
things are going to come at you.
It's going to be hard.
You can't be hard on yourselfLike.
You need to build yourself upso that you're ready to handle
what comes your way.
Dr. Leah OH (36:06):
Yes, I love that.
So I always tell my kids it'shard enough out there, we don't
need to do this to ourselves.
You need to go in like fullypresent, yeah, so this question,
this should be.
I'm really excited.
This is a fun one because weknow that you're preparing to
climb Mount Denali this May andI'm wondering what are some of
(36:27):
your key goals or intentions forthis particular climb and how
does it fit into your broadervision of personal growth?
Jenn Drummond (36:35):
Yeah, so Denali is.
I'm so excited about this climbbecause it's the highest point
in North America and to have aworld record and to have like
the highest point in your homebase feels, so good.
Um, it's fun because now I'vekind of built a name for myself
and the industry and so peoplewant to climb with you.
(36:57):
You know, when you first startyou're like oh yeah, here's who.
I am Like, please, like, Ipromise I'm a hard worker.
Yeah, and so now it's fun to beon the other side of the table
where people are like I'll do it, or I want to be on your team,
or whatever.
So that's cool.
And here's the thing.
Like I know I'm going to get tothe top of Denali, maybe not
(37:19):
this year.
Okay, like I'm not going to bearrogant and fight mother nature
or whatever delivers that waybut, I know I'm going to get to
the top of that mountain and so,since I'm committed to getting
to the top of that mountain, nowmy energy is focused on how do
I make it fun, how do I bringother people along, how do I
like, what can I do to expandthis experience?
(37:41):
So it's not just mine?
And I think when we don't havethat commitment, then we're like
constantly negotiating withourselves Should we turn around?
Should I go to the top?
Should we turn around?
Should I go to the top?
No, no, no.
That decision's been made.
So when that decision's made,now all my energy is how do I
make it fun?
How do I elevate others?
How do I bring you along on thejourney?
(38:01):
How do you learn from me?
So this experience is all ofours, not just mine.
And that's where the real joyand fun comes.
Dr. Leah OH (38:10):
Yeah, and I really I love that, so I think so many
of us it's.
Can I get there?
I want to get there.
Will I get there?
I'm trying so hard to get there.
But I love when you say no,that's going to happen, and
recognize maybe not this year,but that will happen.
And fun isn't a word that Ithink a lot of us are used to
integrating when we're thinkingabout reaching these big goals.
(38:33):
It's work, it's hard, it'schallenge, it's sacrifice.
Right, those are the words, butwhat an amazing idea to bring
fun in.
Honestly, if we're not havingsome fun along the way, why are
we doing this?
Why are we doing it?
Jenn Drummond (38:48):
And like, show me .
So there's this section ofMount Everest called the Lhotse
Face, and I'm not kidding you,it is like a 3,700-foot outdoor
Stairmaster exposed in theelements, right?
So if you ask most teams, it'severybody's least favorite
section of Everest.
Okay, we, like you, have to gothrough it.
(39:10):
So we knew we were goingthrough it and we knew it's
everybody's least favoritesection.
So that was a challenge to me.
I'm like, okay, how do we makethis a fun section?
Right?
And so we each took turnsleading in that area, and
whoever was at the front of theline had to tell jokes, had to
sing songs, had to tell storiesfrom their childhood, like had
(39:33):
to entertain us, to break themonotony of the task of one foot
in front of the other.
And then when they got tired,they went to the back of the
line and then somebody elsewould like lead with song or
jokes or stories or whatever itwas Right To.
Just it kept the morale up.
We were giggling, we werehaving fun, and I'm telling you
the team who's having fun versusthe team who's like we got to
(39:56):
do this Like let's go.
It's a different energy andit's like you have so much more
endurance when you're having fun.
Dr. Leah OH (40:03):
Yeah, fun, yeah, and I'm sure it's like creating
extra reserves of energy andjust thinking about the power of
the mind.
When it's not, how am I gettingmy next foot literally in front
of the other foot and you'rethinking about telling a joke
and laughing about a bad joke?
That is a fundamentallydifferent experience.
Jenn Drummond (40:23):
Definitely joke.
Dr. Leah OH (40:26):
That is a fundamentally different
experience.
Definitely, and I love too,when you were sharing that I was
thinking about.
You know, I think so many timeskids get it right, right, they
know how to.
I mean, they're out there inrecess when it is freezing, but
they're still having fun, or inthe rain, or in the mud and
they're, you know, navigatingfriendship dynamics where their
teeth are falling out, which isso hard, but they're still
(40:48):
finding a way to have a blastwhile doing it.
And I think that's amazing thatyou're able to do that,
recapture that as adults inarguably one of the hardest,
hardest situations that there is.
Jenn Drummond (41:01):
So, yeah, and you just have to catch yourself
Like believe me, I'm not perfectat it because, like on Mount
Logan, you have to make igloosaround your tent because
otherwise the wind will rip yourtent and it will, like you'll
die, right.
So I was like I have to make anigloo to protect the tent from
the wind, like.
So at first you're like oh myGod, this is so exhausting.
(41:25):
I'm cutting out ice blocks, I'mstacking them, I'm freezing,
I'm mad and blah, blah, blah,blah, and I had to.
I'm like wait a minute, if Iwas five years old, this would
be the coolest thing ever.
Like I get to play outside andmake snow forts Are you kidding
me right now?
And so like you.
And then you're so then whenyou go into it, you're like okay
, I'm making a snow fort.
That's a different energy andit makes this task that's
(41:46):
miserable at least a little moretolerable.
Dr. Leah OH (41:49):
Yeah, oh, that is amazing.
Yes, I love that.
So, jen, I have our two finalquestions for you, which I've
just really enjoyed thisconversation, and I'm sad we're
coming to end, but this is theway we end all of our episodes
of the communicative leader.
So we think about a pragmaticleadership or communication tip,
(42:09):
advice or challenge, and thefirst part is for our titled
leaders out there, our managers,directors, ceos, and then the
second part of the question iskind of advice, the tip or
challenge for employees at alllevels, across all industries.
Jenn Drummond (42:28):
Okay, so, as the leader, I think if you give
yourself, like, before you gointo the meeting with the people
, get really clear on theintention of the meeting.
Not only what do you want todeliver, but how do you want
people to feel and I think thatmakes a big difference in how
(42:50):
the meeting goes.
And when you consider how youwant them to feel, like say,
it's constructive feedback, butyou want them to feel empowered,
that's going to help youdeliver it in a way where you're
getting the message across butyou're letting them leave
empowered, not defeated.
And then, as a employee, saywhere you want to go or what
(43:15):
direction you want to be, likehey, someday I want to be a
manager, or someday I want to godo this, or I'm really
interested in learning aboutthis field, because people need
to know they don't get to livein your head and understand that
.
So, as I know, as I'm a leader,I like to know what my employees
are interested in or whatthey're curious about or what
(43:38):
gets them excited.
But it's hard for me, with allthe things going on, to remember
to ask I love it when theyshare it like, hey, this is what
I'm doing this weekend, or thisis what I'm excited about,
because then I can file that inmy brain and be like, oh, guess
what So-and-so likes TaylorSwift, so that if something
comes up in the future and I seesomething and I whatever and I
(43:58):
can like accuse me to think ofthem, then I can show them that
I care about them in ways that Iwouldn't if I didn't know that.
But as the employee, you needto lead with that information
and when you start leading withthat information, you start
becoming more of a leader.
Dr. Leah OH (44:14):
Yes, and I love these.
What I really love about these,jen, is that I think the best
advice is the simplest.
It is clear, it is actionable.
So I think too often,especially in our society, we're
really obsessed with leadership, which can be a really great
thing, but you don't need a16-point plan to lead a good
(44:36):
meeting, but you do needintention and thinking about how
you want people to leave, howyou want them to feel when they
leave.
So that is so beautiful and sosimple and it's going to be so
effective.
Just a game changer, jen.
Thank you for sharing your time, your experiences, these
(44:58):
beautiful, vibrant illustrationswith us.
I know that I've thoroughlyenjoyed this conversation.
I've gotten so much out of it,and I know that our listeners
will as well.
Jenn Drummond (45:09):
Well, thank you for the opportunity to share my
story.
I appreciate it.
Dr. Leah OH (45:14):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
Welcome to another episode of the Communicative
Leader.
I'm your host, Dr Leah OH, andtoday we have the honor of
speaking with Jen Drummond, apioneering adventurer,
motivational speaker and thefirst woman to scale all seven
summits of the world's secondhighest peaks.
In this episode, entitledBreaking Boundaries, resilience
and Leadership, we're going todive deep into Jen's journey of
(00:23):
transformation and theincredible power of resilience.
Following a life-changing caraccident in 2018, Jenn turned
her challenges into catalystsfor growth, embracing a journey
that blends adventure withpersonal development.
As the author of BreakproofSeven Strategies to Build
Resilience and Achieve your LifeGoals, Jenn shares her insights
(00:45):
on cultivating resilience,leadership and the courage to
pursue your dreams.
Currently training to conquerMount Denali this May, jen's
experiences in mountaineeringand business equip her to
inspire individuals and teams toovercome obstacles and embrace
their potential.
In this conversation, sherecounts her incredible journey,
(01:08):
explains the strategies shedeveloped to build resilience
and sheds light on how tocultivate a fearless mindset in
the face of adversity.
Jen is a wealth of wisdom andjust a whole lot of fun too.
I really enjoyed thisconversation and I know that you
will as well.
Let's dive in and have some fun.
(01:30):
Hello and welcome to theCommunicative Leader hosted by
me, Dr Leah Omilion- Hodges.
My friends call me Dr OH.
I'm a professor ofcommunication and a leadership
communication expert On theCommunicative Leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Jen, welcome to theCommunicative Leader.
(01:53):
I'm so excited for ourconversation today, but before
we dive in, I was hoping youcould share a bit about your
background for our listeners.
So, specifically, how did youget into mountaineering and what
are some of your careerhighlights?
Jenn Drummond (02:07):
Yeah.
So I was in finance and ran acompany there, hired myself out
of a job so I could be astay-at-home mom Once my kids
got into school full-time.
I was kind of likesoul-searching what do I want to
do now that I have some morefree time ahead?
And I actually got into a caraccident that should have killed
(02:28):
me and thankfully didn't, whichsent me on this trajectory of,
instead of maybe, success in thetraditional sense.
I was like I want to know whatit feels like to swim in the
Great Barrier Reef or to tastepasta in Italy, or to climb a
mountain or like just moreexperience-based, and so I
(02:49):
decided to climb a mountain formy 40th birthday.
My son increased that goal toclimbing Everest, and then my
coach increased that goal tosetting a world record.
So things got big fast.
Dr. Leah OH (03:03):
That is absolutely incredible and I love that it is
so experience-based and not theoh, I've got to go from this
position in the corporatehierarchy to this where it's
like let's expand that.
Jenn Drummond (03:16):
Yeah, definitely.
I think it's just so easy totake society's definition of
success and then we really justneed to pause and be like well,
what does it mean to me and whatdo I want my life to look like?
Because I don't live on thisplanet forever, so how do I
maximize my time here to livethe best life that I feel?
Dr. Leah OH (03:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, that is beautiful, jen.
So let's think about yourleadership philosophy.
So you are clearly a leader inboth mountaineering and business
, and I'm wondering how yourleadership style, how this, has
evolved over time and what aresome of those principles that
you consider foundational toyour approach?
Jenn Drummond (03:56):
Yeah, this has been tested multiple times, but
I really feel I have the sayingthat people over peaks right.
So when you're on the mountain,when you're building a company,
when you're raising your family, just making sure you're always
putting the people first.
When I was climbing K2, whichis one of the deadliest
(04:16):
mountains in the world, we did.
We had a tragedy, we had anavalanche.
Take out one of my team membersand you read about it, but you
don't expect it to happen to you.
And so this event happens.
And I actually wasn't.
I was a day ahead of the teamat this point, so I wasn't at
the scene of the accident.
But I was given a choice toeither continue to climb or to
(04:41):
come back down.
And I just remember sittingthere thinking you know, I'm a
day from the summit and I'vebeen here for weeks and it's
money and training and all thethings, but there's no way I can
climb this mountain Like I needto go down and take care of my
team, like this mountain willalways be here.
I can always come back to climbit, but who I show up as is way
(05:04):
more important than what Iachieve.
So how am I showing up?
So I went down to take care ofmy team member and, you know,
had like an impromptu funeral,flew home and my kids came home
from camp a couple of days laterand I'll never forget.
They're like, mom, mom, did yousummit?
And I'm like, no, I didn't, butI had success.
(05:26):
They looked at me confused,like what do you mean?
And I'm like, well, success ishow we show up.
What people are going toremember about us, who we are as
individuals, what our valuesare and are we going to live
them when we're tested.
And so I'm proud of the personthat I showed up as.
So to me, that's success.
Like, well, you're going tohave to go back and climb the
mountain.
I'm like, yeah, I am going toneed to go back and climb the
(05:48):
mountain, and that's okaybecause mountains will always be
there.
And so if we build companies orwe lead where people know that
they're more important than thepeak or the profit that we're
making, like the game changes.
Dr. Leah OH (06:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And what a beautiful thing tomodel for, of course, your team
and for your children.
And I think peopleunderestimate how much that
modeling kind of has roots andgoes out, because then your kids
too.
They might not say people overpeaks, but I'm sure you see
instances when they're makingthat right choice, and your team
(06:26):
members too, the way thatthey're showing up and caring
for others.
So I really want to raise upthat amazing leadership example,
jen.
Jenn Drummond (06:35):
Yeah, thank you, thank you, Thank you.
Dr. Leah OH (06:38):
So let's talk about your book.
So Break Proof.
Seven Strategies to BuildResilience and Achieve your Life
Goals.
Jenn Drummond (06:49):
Can you kind of talk us through the inspiration
for this?
Yeah, you know, I think whathappens is you have this
life-altering event, which forme was the car accident.
For other people it could belike a job change or kids
exiting the home or having kids.
You know, like there's thesepivotal moments in our lives
that are like lines in the sand,and when I was building on this
world record, I realizedthere's so many analogies from
(07:13):
mountaineering that go intoregular life and building a
business, and so I wrote thebook to the me before and just
said, okay, listen, here'sthings that if you were to set
out and start a company or builda family or you're going to
achieve an Everest-like goal,there's these things that are
going to happen on every journeyand if you're prepared for them
(07:35):
, then you're going to be betterable to handle them.
When it shows up You're like,oh okay, this is why I'm feeling
this.
Here's what somebody else didto get through this section.
Maybe that will work for me.
Dr. Leah OH (07:46):
Yeah, yeah, that is so powerful, those lessons you
wish you knew, but then alsohelping people.
You know it doesn't mean thatmoment is going to be magically
easy or not feel like achallenge, but you're not
blindsided, so going in, you'reso much better positioned to be
(08:08):
successful.
Jenn Drummond (08:09):
Yeah, Well, just like, I think the unknown is
scary, right.
So when you have that unknownyou're just like, ah, what do I
do?
But then if you read thatunknown in somebody else's story
, now you can reflect it intoyour own and you're like, oh,
this is scary, but this isnormal.
And somehow normal makes iteasier to metabolize.
Dr. Leah OH (08:30):
Oh, a hundred percent.
And when you're not alone likeyou say, it's more like.
This is not just me and otherpeople have overcome it.
I remember my dissertation.
It's just there's so muchwriting and it's at the end.
But I would look at my facultymembers on my committee and all
my great professors.
I'm like they did it.
You can do this too.
Doesn't mean it's going to beeasy, but it is achievable.
Jenn Drummond (08:53):
Yeah, no, definitely, and like one of the
key points out of the book wasbig mountains take big teams
right, Like I think we set theseEverest like goals and expect
ourselves to like get our bunsup the mountain.
Well, guess what?
Like when I climbed Everest, Iwas shocked at how many people
(09:15):
were part of that pursuit.
Right, there's teams managingthe ropes, there's team managing
the tents, the food, the oxygen, the weather.
There's so many people playingtheir little role that I have to
wake up and just walk.
Well, if I only have to wake upand walk and I don't have to
consider the weather or theoxygen or the food or the tent
or whatever, I have way moreenergy and it's a lot easier for
(09:39):
me to climb because I'm notbeing pulled in all these
directions.
And so I just tell people, like, hey, when you hit that moment
of frustration and you're tryingto negotiate with yourself and
say maybe I took on too big of achallenge, maybe you didn't,
maybe you just need more peopleto help you get to the top of
the mountain, yeah, that is sopowerful.
Dr. Leah OH (09:58):
And let's think about resilience, because I know
in your book you discuss anumber of strategies and I was
hoping you could highlight acouple of these for us and kind
of explain how we could use thisprofessionally or even in our
personal lives when things arefeeling just too much yeah.
Jenn Drummond (10:15):
You know, the big thing about resilience is
always being able to come fromour center right.
So if you're coming from anexposed area and then you're
going to keep going more exposed, it's hard to be resilient,
because you're like on thebranch of the tree instead of
the trunk when you're climbing amountain.
There's this thing calledacclimatizing, and so what
(10:36):
happens when you acclimatize isthat, like, so say, you're at
Everspace Camp and you hike upto Camp 1.
Well, when you get up to campone, you're struggling, and the
reason why you're struggling isthere's not enough oxygen in the
air for your body to operateand so you can't go any higher.
Like you literally are tellingyour muscle I need to take a
step, and the muscles like I'mnot getting the signal right, I
(10:59):
don't know what you're talkingabout.
And so you sit like we'd get upto camp one, we would eat lunch
and then we would go all theway back down to base camp,
which at first is sodisheartening.
You're like no, no, no, likeI'm going the wrong direction.
What's going on?
But here's the thing.
Like you get back down to basecamp and over the next three
(11:20):
days that stress causes yourbody to physiologically change
and it makes more red bloodcells.
So then after three days you go, hike up to camp one and you're
like, oh, this isn't bad, I gotthis, we're good, this is easy.
And then you get to camp twoand you start feeling that
(11:40):
feeling of exhaustion, likeyou're a little foggy in the
brain and whatever.
And you sit at camp two and yougo all the way back down to
base camp and that's the thing.
Like we acclimatize.
I think a lot of us think thatwe're going to set this goal and
you just go from base camp tothe top and that's what you do
and it's not really how it worksin life.
(12:01):
Like, how it works in life isyou get to this point where it's
new territory or you'restretched to new, like edges,
and you need to come back to theboardroom or to the kitchen or
to the base camp and say whatdid I learn?
What do I know now that Ididn't know that I've been in
that territory, and what can Iimplement and integrate?
So when I go back there, I'mbetter and it's easier and I'm
(12:26):
stronger, and that's resilienceLike, resilience is being able
to climb down, to climb up andnot lose that momentum because
you understand.
It's part of the process.
Dr. Leah OH (12:36):
Yeah, that is such a powerful illustration.
And I imagine too, with everynew mountain, every summit you
reach, I imagine there aremoments where, like you said
disheartening and that'sprobably a very light word, a
mild word You're like oh, we'vegotten here, we got to go back
down, but what a beautifulillustration for what that looks
(12:56):
like across the board, forwhatever that mountain is we're
working toward.
Jenn Drummond (13:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (13:03):
Wow, that's incredible, jen, and so,
speaking of incredible as afirst woman to conquer the seven
second summits, what were someof the biggest challenges you
faced during these climbs?
And then after that?
I'd love to hear about you know, how overcoming some of those
challenges helped to shape orreshape your approach to life
(13:23):
and leadership.
Jenn Drummond (13:25):
Yeah, you know, I think we get married to
concepts.
So for me, my biggest strugglewith setting this world record
wasn't even the climbing themountains, it was being away
from my children and still beinga good mom, yeah Right.
So, like I had equated being agood mom with time with them,
(13:49):
and the reality is is likethere's people out there that
are home full time with theirkids, but when their kids are
home, they're doing, you know,laundry or cooking dinner or
putting it away, or they'rereally busy with a whole bunch
of things.
And so for me, I had toredefine what a good mom was,
and in that redefinition I hadto be like, okay, well, how am I
(14:11):
going to be a present mom anddo this athletic pursuit that's
going to pull me out of thehouse for two weeks sometimes at
a time.
And so it just got reallyintentional with my time making
sure I did one-on-one time withthe kids, and there was no phone
involved, there was no otheractivity involved.
We were just very much talkingto each other and building that
(14:32):
relationship, and I had torealize like, hey, I'm going to
do life in parallel with them,so they don't want to do their
homework, I don't want to do myworkout.
Like we can talk about thingsthat we both feel the same
frustration.
It just manifests a little bitdifferent based on our ages and
our activities that we're in.
And so the interesting thing isis, like Everest was again.
(14:55):
I wasn't afraid of the mountain, I was afraid of being away
from home.
And so then I, like you do allthe things that a mom does,
right, like you line up, helpyou get carpool figured out,
here's what they're doing.
You have like a 20 pagedocument of like what to do
while I'm gone, and that's dayone, right, and here's how it's
going to go down.
And so then I go to the kid'sschool and I tell the teachers
(15:19):
I'm like, hey, I'm going to begone, I'm climbing Everest, I
have everything lined up.
But can you give my kids alittle bit of grace?
They might not be on their Agame with things chicken up at
home.
And this teacher came back tome and she's like, oh my gosh,
this is amazing.
Would you mind coming in andtalking to the kids about
setting an Everest-like goal,like a hundred percent?
(15:41):
So I went into the school, Ihelped the kids like set these
goals.
They colored little hikers andthey had their flags, and the
flags said I wanted to make likea black diamond ski team or I
wanted to bike to grandma's orget an A on a test or whatever
it was Right.
And then in the front of theschool we put this big mountain
and we had a little hiker.
That was me, because I had atracking device on me so then
(16:05):
the kids could track me andwhere I was going and what I was
doing.
And then at Everest Base Camp Ihad Wi-Fi so I could Zoom, call
into the classrooms and talk tothem about, like, what was
working and what wasn't, andwhere I pooped and what I ate.
You know, like and so like itwas this thing where, sure, I
(16:27):
wasn't the Pinterest mom or thePTA mom or the mom that like,
made every single soccer gamethat season, but I was a mom who
set goals and involved her kidsand, like, the community got
involved.
So, when I climbed Everest,like my kids were so loved on
and so seen and they felt thesupport of a community that if
(16:49):
I'd been home probably wouldn'thave been able to show up the
same way that they did.
And so it just, I think, forany of us setting goals or
trying to achieve big things orleading a team, really question
what your definition of that isand how can you expand that to
include what you're doing andfeel good about it.
Dr. Leah OH (17:13):
Yeah, I love that I'm writing all of these notes
down, jen.
So I just I love that howintegrated that you you brought
your, your children and theirschool and your community into
your goal setting and this giantundertaking and bringing in how
(17:33):
to make your life parallel,like I don't want to do this
workout, you don't want to dothe homework, it's okay, cause a
lot of times we just needsomeone to say like yeah, it
feels really tough right now, orlike that stinks, but we can
still do this.
And then the support, because,like you were saying before, I
think, for whatever reason, itis so hard for us in this
Western society to ask forsupport and to lean on it Right,
(17:58):
like it's a four letterletterword.
Jenn Drummond (18:00):
That's a terrible thing to say right.
And it's crazy when you arewilling to say here's where I'm
at, here's what I'm trying to do, I'm not quite sure how to get
there and I want things to be acertain way.
Then other people get to stepup and be like well, come in and
talk about this or let's dothat, or like it's amazing, when
(18:22):
we're willing to be vulnerablewith where we're like weak or
concerned, how people can fillin the gaps.
Dr. Leah OH (18:29):
Yeah, and I just keep thinking again modeling.
So much of my brain is aboutmodeling leadership.
Right, because a lot of peoplesay I'm not a leader, I'm like,
but you are, whether you'reacknowledging this and embracing
it or not, but showing them thevalue of support, and not just
your children and your family,but the whole school and what
this means for the classmatesand other families going through
(18:51):
things, recognizing that if Isay hey, we've got this or this,
that people will show up andsupport and celebrate them.
Jenn Drummond (18:59):
Yeah, most definitely.
We love to cheer people on,right.
I mean, it's such an honor.
We forget that people love tocheer us on too.
Dr. Leah OH (19:08):
Yes, yes.
So let's shift gears a littlebit and thinking about failure,
which, for a lot of people,again another one of those
four-letter words where a lot ofpeople are like, oh, please
don't say it.
But we know that these can bereally amazing opportunities for
growth.
And you know, every climb comeswith risks and not all climbs
(19:30):
are successful.
And when I was getting readyfor our chat, I was thinking
what a great metaphor for life.
But I was wondering if youcould share a setback you
experienced in climbing or yourcareer, and of how you shifted
that.
How did you turn that into anopportunity for learning or
growth?
Jenn Drummond (19:48):
Yeah, I have the most amazing story that happened
with failure One.
There's failure all the time onthe mountains.
So I had to climb ninemountains to set this world
record, because there's adispute on continents.
So when I climbed nine, it tookthree of them, took twice right
, so I had to go back more thanonce to do them, just because of
weather conditions or my friendthat passed away in the
(20:11):
avalanche and all the littlevariables that are outside of
our control.
The goal is always to come homeright.
When you're building a business, if you're launching a product,
the goal is always come backand still have a business, even
if the product doesn't go.
And so for me, when I failed K2and I needed to go back, I was
(20:31):
not excited about going back.
Now I had this negativeexperience.
So not only do I have to goback into this harsh environment
, but I have to overcome anexperience that was not awesome
and go make it different.
And so, like I'm training, I'mtraining, I'm training, I'm
doing all the things, eventhough I'm not a hundred percent
engaged, because I'm just likeI don't want to go, but I have
(20:53):
to put myself in a position togo.
So I'm going to keep doing thething.
And two weeks before I had toleave for this climb, I got a
phone call.
And the phone call was from anindividual who had been training
to climb the mountain butdidn't have the resources to
make it happen.
And I'm like you know what.
It's so easy for us to getthese things in the United
(21:14):
States.
I'm happy to bring them over.
I'll call my guide, we'll putyou on my team.
This will be fine.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And so, all of a sudden, now Ihad a reason bigger than myself
to go back, and this person wason my team and blah, blah, blah,
blah blah.
So I became the third Americanfemale to stand on top of K2 in
2022, which was super exciting.
(21:35):
But even more exciting was, 30minutes later, the first
Pakistani female stood on top ofour country's prize peak.
I had met this individual theyear before and we just stayed
in touch on WhatsApp and I'mlike you know just train like
someday the opportunity willshow up.
So she had been training, andtraining, and training and did
(21:57):
not have the financial resourcesor the things to be able to
make that climb happen.
And because I failed the firsttime and came back and knew her
and was willing to go back andclimb the failed mountain again.
I got to be a part of her story, which was so much more
significant than my own becauseI have twin daughters.
(22:18):
I know how important it is forthem to see people that look
like them in these environments,because it creates this
opportunity in their mind orcuriosity gets planted.
And so now there's a wholebunch of little Pakistani girls,
a whole bunch of little Muslimgirls all over the world that
see somebody that looks likethem on top of one of the most
(22:39):
dangerous peaks in the world andit allows them to say like, wow
, what is possible for me?
And so like, failure a lot oftimes is just this thing that is
either slowing us down to bringother people with us, causing
us to be like, hey, maybethere's a redirect, or maybe we
need to come back with moreresources, more knowledge, a
(23:01):
different day.
It truly is a stepping stone onour journey, and when you can
keep stories on speed dial ofwhere failure has been actually
a good thing for you, it allowsit to be less overwhelming when
it shows up again.
Dr. Leah OH (23:17):
Yeah yeah, I have goosebumps, john, in listening
to that.
And that last phrase let's keepa few stories of failure on
speed dial because, you're right, these happen and they feel so
big and we're like, of courseI'm going to remember that
feeling, but a lot of times wedon't, because we kind of get
lost, we get bogged down in thecurrent failure or hardship or
(23:39):
obstacle and we can't seeclearly.
So I love that idea of kind ofkeeping that on the ready, just
in case to remind yourself thatthis is probably going to be a
springboard.
We might not see how now, butit's likely going to help us get
a place we did not anticipatebefore.
Jenn Drummond (23:58):
Yeah, definitely.
You know, I always think oflike the arrow and the bow right
.
It gets pulled back and thenshot forward, and so just maybe
we're in that section of beingpulled back a second.
Dr. Leah OH (24:10):
Yeah, oh, that's awesome, and so thinking about
kind of diving more into thisarea.
I want to think about risk andreward, and this is when we know
you know, just like failure, alot of people have a hard time
with the word risk and thefeeling of risk, and we know
that what you do involves asignificant level of risk.
(24:31):
So I'm wondering, as someonewho has probably made friends
with risk and reward, I imagine,by this point how do you assess
and manage your risk, both inclimbing endeavors and even in
business, and what advice do youhave for others who are trying
to figure out?
How do I balance this?
You know, taking risks but alsomaking sure that I'm most
(24:54):
likely positioned to come outokay on the other end.
Jenn Drummond (24:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The climbing metaphors are soeasy, but we can apply these to
business.
So for me, when you're climbing, you always have to come home
right.
Getting to the top doesn't meanyou won, like getting home
means you won, and so the top ishalfway right.
So I think a lot of times, ifwe just think of risk and reward
and we are checking in withourselves, do I have enough
(25:20):
runway to make it home?
Do I have enough runway to makeit home?
And that's like a check-inwe're always doing.
The nice thing about climbing isyou're climbing with ropes.
So when you're climbing withropes, that rope might be 120
feet long, okay, so the firstperson goes, they set the rope,
and then the next person comesto them and now you have, like,
(25:40):
all the rope together again.
When you're together again,you're now at a position where
is the weather still favorable?
How are we doing energy wise?
Do we have enough fuel?
Do we have enough Like, isthere enough daylight?
It gives you this automaticcheck in before you go, pull the
rope, taunt again for 120 feetand then do the next section.
And so in business, I think it'sdoing those check-ins.
(26:03):
What does it look like at theend of the week or the end of
the month or the end of thequarter.
There's spaces that we can seeif things are starting to get
derailed and we want to makesure that we're making those
corrections early and often tostay on direction.
If you think of an airplane andit's going from Salt Lake City
to Detroit, if it gets off onedegree early on flight, like
(26:25):
it's not landing in Detroitanymore, right, so it has to
keep course correcting based onwhat's the weather doing, what's
the wind doing, is it blowingme off course, and can you like
just readjust.
And so I think it's thosecheck-ins that we build,
climbing, has it automaticallywith ropes.
We have to set it up weekly,quarterly, monthly to make sure
that we're on track and keepevaluating our risk reward.
Dr. Leah OH (26:49):
Yeah, yeah, that is so helpful and I think you're
right.
I think there are other areasof our life.
When you were talking I wasthinking about years ago with
our first child, brand newparents.
We'd be like the wheels arecoming off and that was our
phrase to be like are theyhungry?
Do they need to be changed?
Like, what did we forget?
Are they cold?
But in work, like you're saying, a lot of times we don't
(27:12):
recognize until like the wheelsare completely off, we skid it
out in this fantastic failure.
But I think it's figuring out.
Is it at the end of each weekwhere I do a quick check-in, is
it in our meetings, adding in adevil's abdicate to say what are
some potential consequences?
(27:33):
But it is funny when you saidthat that I'm realizing that,
yeah, there are a lot of areasin our life where we do
naturally have these check-ins,but we tend to overlook that in
traditional business settings.
Jenn Drummond (27:46):
Yeah, In my personal life I have this little
thing I call it a triggermeditation and every single time
I touch a doorknob, I stop andI take a deep breath and I ask
myself am I on autopilot rightnow, or am I on intention right
now?
And I think so often we justget on autopilot because that's
(28:06):
what we've done and that's whatwe're doing, and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah that we forgetto like, get curious and be like
is this even what I want to bedoing?
You know, that's like thebeauty of vacations is you break
, you break pattern, and so thenyou come back and you're like
okay, well, wait a minute, whywere we doing it that way?
Or whatever.
So I do think that intentionalbreak of pattern allows you to
evaluate the pattern and see ifyou want to continue it.
Dr. Leah OH (28:28):
Yeah, yeah.
And I love bringing in thecuriosity too, because I think
that so many times we fallvictim to shame.
Then like why, why would I havedone that?
Why did I?
And being curious is what's abetter approach?
Or how can I do thisdifferently?
Or if I am on autopilot, whyright?
Jenn Drummond (28:45):
How do I change that yeah?
Dr. Leah OH (28:47):
I love that, that with the doorknob I'm going to
be, I'm going to be thinkingabout that and I imagine it'll
probably take me a few days andthen I will be doing it.
Jenn Drummond (29:01):
Yeah, no, it's fine, like, we even do it, as we
have this red light by ourhouse and I'm on the short side
of the red light, so I alwaysgot the red light and I'd be so
angry and bitter Like oh my God,I got the red light again.
And then, finally, one day, Ihad the aha moment of the red
light.
Doesn't care that it's red,only I care that it's red.
And I'm writing this storythat's keeping me stuck and
miserable.
Every single time I hit it red,I'm like I'm going to change
this, and so we now call it ourgratitude light.
(29:23):
And so now, every single timewe hit that light red, it's a
cue to be okay, what am Igrateful for right now in my
life?
And we all have to say it outloud, whoever's in the car.
And then we go to the pointwhere sometimes, if we hit it
green, the kids are like, oh, wedon't get to do our gratitude.
We hit it green, the kids arelike, oh, we don't get to do it
green.
That's what I was just thinking.
How did that narrative change?
So it's just that interruptionto keep us on track.
Dr. Leah OH (29:46):
Yeah, yeah, I love that, and such a great gift to
give to others around you andyourself, yeah.
So, jen, let's dive more deeplyinto communication and
leadership.
Communication is my happy,happy place and I know
communication, especially inhigh pressure situations, is
(30:07):
critical.
So how has effectivecommunication, how has it,
played a role in your climbing,partnership and teams?
And then after that, what aresome of your takeaways for
professionals?
What can they learn from yourexperience with communication?
Jenn Drummond (30:24):
Right.
Well, I'm in life or deathsituations with communication,
so it's critical.
And what it has really taughtme is to just be raw and honest,
right, because then everybodyknows what they're dealing with.
So, for example, I need to knowif you're cold, I need to know
if you're tired or sore orthirsty, because we need to
(30:47):
address that before it becomes aproblem.
And if somebody's gone beforeyou, they'll be like okay,
around this corner the windcomes.
So do you have enough layers onright now?
Are you ready to handle thewind, because we're going to be
in it for this amount of time?
So maybe layer up or layer downor do whatever.
And when you are climbing likeI'm 115 pounds, I am not able to
(31:11):
carry a whole bunch of weightup the mountain.
There's just no way.
I don't have a big enough frameto do it, but I am short, so I
do have a low center of gravityand I can dig.
I can dig out a flat tentground like nobody's business, a
lot easier than somebody who'slike six foot 180, right.
And so just being really honestwith here's what I'm good at,
(31:32):
here's what I'm not good at,here's how I'm feeling right now
and we're ready to go.
And I think when we do that inbusiness too, and we have the
courage to say I'm really goodat making the PowerPoint, I'm
not good at doing thecopywriting, so can somebody
else do that piece?
Or I'm really good at this, canyou do that and just really let
(31:54):
everybody play a piece to thepuzzle.
Dr. Leah OH (31:58):
Yeah, yeah.
I love that, because theneveryone's shining in the areas
that they are, you know, atopstrengths, and not feeling like
they're trying to limp throughan area that they're already
uncomfortable with.
Jenn Drummond (32:11):
Yeah, and when you're in your zone of genius,
like life's good, it's fun, likethis is where I'm at.
So how can you build your day tohave more of your life in that
zone of genius, and who else cancompliment you so that as a
team?
You know, I have a podcast andI interviewed an astronaut a
little bit ago and it wasinteresting.
There was 18,000 people thatapplied to be an astronaut in
(32:34):
her astronaut class and theytake 18.
Okay, and they take 18, andit's like they always have to
have a doctor on the team.
They always have to have amechanical engineer on the team.
They always have to like youcould be the most amazing person
ever, but if they alreadypicked the type of doctor they
(32:54):
need, you're not on the teambecause they filled that spot,
and so it doesn't mean you'rebad, it just means like it
wasn't the synergies of theskill sets that everybody needed
to do.
So the more honest you are, themore you're going to be able to
line up with people that fittogether with you to get things
done.
Dr. Leah OH (33:13):
Yeah, exactly, and I think that's such a powerful
realization that it's not.
Maybe it's not me or it's likeyou said.
I don't have that exactspecialization, but at the same
time, we wouldn't want itbecause we'd be trying to mold
and fit something we're not orthat isn't our top skill, and
that just doesn't make sense foranyone.
Jenn Drummond (33:35):
Yeah, I mean, when we built our Mount Logan
team of three people, there wasno choice, like our third person
had to be a tall, strong personbecause we had there's X number
of weight, and that person hadto be a tall, strong person
because we had there's X numberof weight and that weight had to
get up the mountain.
So at the end of the day, it'slike, okay, here's what I can do
, here's what you can do.
Now we know who we need to hire, because that's the person that
can do that piece, and we can'tget up if we don't get that
(33:57):
settled.
Dr. Leah OH (34:06):
Yeah, exactly, and and so that was already.
That's a great segue.
Jenn Drummond (34:07):
So I want to think about empowering others,
and I know that you aim toencourage others to push beyond
these perceived limitations, andI was hoping you could share an
example with us where eitheryou've seen someone really
transform that mindset andachieve their goals, or, if you
wanted to share a personalexample, if you wanted to share
a personal example, yeah, so Ihave a client who had a
(34:28):
restaurant failure, right, had asuccess with a restaurant, then
had a failure with a restaurantand was looking to get into
starting a new restaurant andkept replaying the tape of the
failure, because it was morerecent, instead of the tape of
the success.
(34:50):
And so we would sit down andwe'd be like, okay, but is that
the old version or is that thenew version?
And being very clear of what isnew and unique about this
situation.
So we weren't bringing theenergy of the old situation in
and I think a lot of times wethink it's a one-time decision.
It is never a one-time decision, okay, like when you're
climbing the mountain and it's20,000 steps to the top, it is
(35:12):
that same decision 20,000 times,okay.
And so for these people, likewhen you're doing something, it
is that decision every step,every day, multiple times, to
get to where you're going andwhatever you need to do to
remember that or to do that orto whatever.
But this now third restaurant,most successful of all of them,
(35:36):
right, yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (35:37):
Yeah, because we're taking our successes, we're
taking the lessons that welearned when it didn't go the
way that we had anticipated, andwe're just armed with so much
more knowledge.
Jenn Drummond (35:48):
So much more knowledge right.
Definitely, and you just haveto give yourself permission to
succeed and you have to be yourbiggest cheerleader because
things are going to come at you.
It's going to be hard.
You can't be hard on yourselfLike.
You need to build yourself upso that you're ready to handle
what comes your way.
Dr. Leah OH (36:06):
Yes, I love that.
So I always tell my kids it'shard enough out there, we don't
need to do this to ourselves.
You need to go in like fullypresent, yeah, so this question,
this should be.
I'm really excited.
This is a fun one because weknow that you're preparing to
climb Mount Denali this May andI'm wondering what are some of
(36:27):
your key goals or intentions forthis particular climb and how
does it fit into your broadervision of personal growth?
Jenn Drummond (36:35):
Yeah, so Denali is.
I'm so excited about this climbbecause it's the highest point
in North America and to have aworld record and to have like
the highest point in your homebase feels, so good.
Um, it's fun because now I'vekind of built a name for myself
and the industry and so peoplewant to climb with you.
(36:57):
You know, when you first startyou're like oh yeah, here's who.
I am Like, please, like, Ipromise I'm a hard worker.
Yeah, and so now it's fun to beon the other side of the table
where people are like I'll do it, or I want to be on your team,
or whatever.
So that's cool.
And here's the thing.
Like I know I'm going to get tothe top of Denali, maybe not
(37:19):
this year.
Okay, like I'm not going to bearrogant and fight mother nature
or whatever delivers that waybut, I know I'm going to get to
the top of that mountain and so,since I'm committed to getting
to the top of that mountain, nowmy energy is focused on how do
I make it fun, how do I bringother people along, how do I
like, what can I do to expandthis experience?
(37:41):
So it's not just mine?
And I think when we don't havethat commitment, then we're like
constantly negotiating withourselves Should we turn around?
Should I go to the top?
Should we turn around?
Should I go to the top?
No, no, no.
That decision's been made.
So when that decision's made,now all my energy is how do I
make it fun?
How do I elevate others?
How do I bring you along on thejourney?
(38:01):
How do you learn from me?
So this experience is all ofours, not just mine.
And that's where the real joyand fun comes.
Dr. Leah OH (38:10):
Yeah, and I really I love that, so I think so many
of us it's.
Can I get there?
I want to get there.
Will I get there?
I'm trying so hard to get there.
But I love when you say no,that's going to happen, and
recognize maybe not this year,but that will happen.
And fun isn't a word that Ithink a lot of us are used to
integrating when we're thinkingabout reaching these big goals.
(38:33):
It's work, it's hard, it'schallenge, it's sacrifice.
Right, those are the words, butwhat an amazing idea to bring
fun in.
Honestly, if we're not havingsome fun along the way, why are
we doing this?
Why are we doing it?
Jenn Drummond (38:48):
And like, show me .
So there's this section ofMount Everest called the Lhotse
Face, and I'm not kidding you,it is like a 3,700-foot outdoor
Stairmaster exposed in theelements, right?
So if you ask most teams, it'severybody's least favorite
section of Everest.
Okay, we, like you, have to gothrough it.
(39:10):
So we knew we were goingthrough it and we knew it's
everybody's least favoritesection.
So that was a challenge to me.
I'm like, okay, how do we makethis a fun section?
Right?
And so we each took turnsleading in that area, and
whoever was at the front of theline had to tell jokes, had to
sing songs, had to tell storiesfrom their childhood, like had
(39:33):
to entertain us, to break themonotony of the task of one foot
in front of the other.
And then when they got tired,they went to the back of the
line and then somebody elsewould like lead with song or
jokes or stories or whatever itwas Right To.
Just it kept the morale up.
We were giggling, we werehaving fun, and I'm telling you
the team who's having fun versusthe team who's like we got to
(39:56):
do this Like let's go.
It's a different energy andit's like you have so much more
endurance when you're having fun.
Dr. Leah OH (40:03):
Yeah, fun, yeah, and I'm sure it's like creating
extra reserves of energy andjust thinking about the power of
the mind.
When it's not, how am I gettingmy next foot literally in front
of the other foot and you'rethinking about telling a joke
and laughing about a bad joke?
That is a fundamentallydifferent experience.
Jenn Drummond (40:23):
Definitely joke.
Dr. Leah OH (40:26):
That is a fundamentally different
experience.
Definitely, and I love too,when you were sharing that I was
thinking about.
You know, I think so many timeskids get it right, right, they
know how to.
I mean, they're out there inrecess when it is freezing, but
they're still having fun, or inthe rain, or in the mud and
they're, you know, navigatingfriendship dynamics where their
teeth are falling out, which isso hard, but they're still
(40:48):
finding a way to have a blastwhile doing it.
And I think that's amazing thatyou're able to do that,
recapture that as adults inarguably one of the hardest,
hardest situations that there is.
Jenn Drummond (41:01):
So, yeah, and you just have to catch yourself
Like believe me, I'm not perfectat it because, like on Mount
Logan, you have to make igloosaround your tent because
otherwise the wind will rip yourtent and it will, like you'll
die, right.
So I was like I have to make anigloo to protect the tent from
the wind, like.
So at first you're like oh myGod, this is so exhausting.
(41:25):
I'm cutting out ice blocks, I'mstacking them, I'm freezing,
I'm mad and blah, blah, blah,blah, and I had to.
I'm like wait a minute, if Iwas five years old, this would
be the coolest thing ever.
Like I get to play outside andmake snow forts Are you kidding
me right now?
And so like you.
And then you're so then whenyou go into it, you're like okay
, I'm making a snow fort.
That's a different energy andit makes this task that's
(41:46):
miserable at least a little moretolerable.
Dr. Leah OH (41:49):
Yeah, oh, that is amazing.
Yes, I love that.
So, jen, I have our two finalquestions for you, which I've
just really enjoyed thisconversation, and I'm sad we're
coming to end, but this is theway we end all of our episodes
of the communicative leader.
So we think about a pragmaticleadership or communication tip,
(42:09):
advice or challenge, and thefirst part is for our titled
leaders out there, our managers,directors, ceos, and then the
second part of the question iskind of advice, the tip or
challenge for employees at alllevels, across all industries.
Jenn Drummond (42:28):
Okay, so, as the leader, I think if you give
yourself, like, before you gointo the meeting with the people
, get really clear on theintention of the meeting.
Not only what do you want todeliver, but how do you want
people to feel and I think thatmakes a big difference in how
(42:50):
the meeting goes.
And when you consider how youwant them to feel, like say,
it's constructive feedback, butyou want them to feel empowered,
that's going to help youdeliver it in a way where you're
getting the message across butyou're letting them leave
empowered, not defeated.
And then, as a employee, saywhere you want to go or what
(43:15):
direction you want to be, likehey, someday I want to be a
manager, or someday I want to godo this, or I'm really
interested in learning aboutthis field, because people need
to know they don't get to livein your head and understand that
.
So, as I know, as I'm a leader,I like to know what my employees
are interested in or whatthey're curious about or what
(43:38):
gets them excited.
But it's hard for me, with allthe things going on, to remember
to ask I love it when theyshare it like, hey, this is what
I'm doing this weekend, or thisis what I'm excited about,
because then I can file that inmy brain and be like, oh, guess
what So-and-so likes TaylorSwift, so that if something
comes up in the future and I seesomething and I whatever and I
(43:58):
can like accuse me to think ofthem, then I can show them that
I care about them in ways that Iwouldn't if I didn't know that.
But as the employee, you needto lead with that information
and when you start leading withthat information, you start
becoming more of a leader.
Dr. Leah OH (44:14):
Yes, and I love these.
What I really love about these,jen, is that I think the best
advice is the simplest.
It is clear, it is actionable.
So I think too often,especially in our society, we're
really obsessed with leadership, which can be a really great
thing, but you don't need a16-point plan to lead a good
(44:36):
meeting, but you do needintention and thinking about how
you want people to leave, howyou want them to feel when they
leave.
So that is so beautiful and sosimple and it's going to be so
effective.
Just a game changer, jen.
Thank you for sharing your time, your experiences, these
(44:58):
beautiful, vibrant illustrationswith us.
I know that I've thoroughlyenjoyed this conversation.
I've gotten so much out of it,and I know that our listeners
will as well.
Jenn Drummond (45:09):
Well, thank you for the opportunity to share my
story.
I appreciate it.
Dr. Leah OH (45:14):
All right, my friends.
That wraps up our conversationtoday.
Until next time, communicatewith intention and lead with
purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon on the
Communicative Leader.
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