Nick makes the link between continued education and leadership explicit.
We talk about ROI and other traditional tangible outcomes, but we also talk about other benefits of lifelong learning - including more diverse and more capable workplaces.
What else?
Nick chats with us about rethinking the traditional bachelor's degree required approach. Why?
Well, a lot of really intelligent, really motivated folks can bring a lot of good to your organization if we unpack what we assume comes along with an individual who has a degree in hand.
Here are the links to some of the success stories we talk about:
- Ashley (we discuss specifically): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuaKvvj21Wo
- Additional learner success stories: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLenXzvOJi0EkRLPPmRRy3JKskCMgA-zHt
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Nik grief is a VP of go to market strategy and
communications at instride. Nickknows his stuff. He specializes
in developing initiatives thatdrive organizational growth,
social responsibility and bottomline results. Nick talks to us
about the intersection ofleadership and education and
(00:20):
helps us to consider innovativeways to improve organizational
culture and enhance diversity inorganizations. Hello, and
welcome to the communicativeleader hosted by me, Dr. Leah
Omilion-Hodges. My friends callme Dr. OH. I'm a professor of
communication and leadershipcommunication expert, and the
(00:41):
communicative leader. We'reworking to make your work life
what you want it to be. Nick,I'm really excited to chat with
you today and explore thatintersection of leadership and
education and communication. Andbefore we do that, can you give
us some background, maybe whatled you to where you are today?
Nick Greif (01:03):
Yeah, happy to and really appreciate you having me
on today. Docker. So my journeyhas mostly been about following
interesting leadershipopportunities. Now you could see
that Curiosity has been woventhe whole way through. So I
began my career in managementconsulting, because I knew that
that would expose me to a lot ofdifferent projects and
challenges, and helping me builda wide foundation of knowledge.
(01:26):
And then from there, I movedover into public policy, which
had long been a passion of mine.
So I became an economic adviserto the mayor of Los Angeles, and
then later spent time as apolicy director, and finally,
Chief of Staff for a citylegislator. And working with
elected leaders in particularwas definitely a crash course in
both leadership andcommunication. So after about
eight years in government, Ithen stepped back into the
(01:49):
private sector to seek newchallenges, and ended up in
social impact technology. And socurrently, that's where I work,
I work at a company calledinstride. Where a social impact
at tech startup educationtechnology, that is changing how
employees upskill and attaineducation, like getting their
employers to offer tuition freeeducation to their staff.
Dr. Leah OH (02:12):
Yeah, really, really cool. Nick, and I love
what really stuck with me wasthat curity city driven career,
because then you're engaged,you're having fun, you're
learning. And I think that helpsto guard us against so many of
you know, not feeling motivated,not feeling driven, not not
knowing what's next. But by kindof tugging on that curiosity.
(02:35):
Thread. You know, you you've hadan incredible career and so much
to go, yeah. So we've kind ofhinted on your organization's
you're within stride, and it'sreally innovative. So instead of
in, this is my take, so let meknow, if I if I'm not quite
hitting the nail on the head. Soinstead of that traditional
(02:56):
tuition benefit that many don'ttake advantage of your
organization offers theseprofessional customized
development programs foremployees. So a two parter can
talk to us about this. And whythis approach over the
traditional model?
Nick Greif (03:13):
Yeah, you're, you've got 100%, right. So traditional
tuition reimbursement, which forthose that aren't familiar, is
where you know, you as anemployee are offered this
benefit from your company. Andthey're essentially going to
repay you for some or all of thetuition you spend on your
education. But it's on you to gofigure out where you want to
study what you want to study howto find the cash to pay up
(03:35):
front, and then get the rightgrades, you need to then submit
for reimbursement which couldtake six to nine to 12 months
after you initially spend thatmoney. And so the main problems
with that model, and what we'retrying to fix, in addition to
the fact that only one to 2% ofemployees, and of using that
benefit in a given year, is thatit puts up a lot of walls, a lot
of barriers to, frankly, theexact employees that really
(03:58):
could use his benefit and makethe most out of it. In
particular, the fact that you'vegot to shell out 1000s of
dollars for your tuition aheadof time means that you're
already locking out everybodywho doesn't have 1000s of
dollars in their pocket thatthey can, you know, spend and
wait six months to get back.
You're also telling people whohave had either, you know, what
we call educational trauma had atough experience the education
world, you're saying, hey,you've got to go and figure this
(04:21):
all out. Maybe Maybe maybe thecomplexity of the system didn't
make you feel very good lasttime. And now we're saying
again, if you want to use thisbenefit, you've got to go figure
it out, figure out all theapplications get it figured out
the forms, you get to decidewhat you want to take. So we
take all that and we say okay,let's if we were to redesign
this from bottom to top, howwould we make this as accessible
and open to employees aspossible to get that education
(04:42):
so we do a few things. One, wework with education providers,
ranging from skills providers,like simply learn high school
diploma providers, like CareerOnline High School, all the way
to doctorates degrees, Mastersbachelors places like Arizona
State University And we create adirect billing model where the
employer, the company paysdirectly to the academic
(05:03):
provider, the employee never hasto pay any money out of pocket.
The second thing we do is we putall those options together into
a marketplace, it's gotten, youknow, up to 3000 plus options
for the employee to really lookinto, and it's all in one place,
easy for them to figure out,okay, I'm looking for, you know,
XYZ learning opportunity. Andyou could filter by all those
(05:23):
things, there's even apathfinder that will ask you
questions, you know, what areyou looking for in education
journey, and spit out, you know,the types of programs that align
with your interests. And thenthe final thing we do is we have
academic coaches, who will reachout to and talk to, you know,
registered participantsemployees at these companies,
and, and understand their needs,and help them understand their
(05:45):
benefit. And so they've gotsomeone holding their hand the
whole way, you know, in cases isa daunting experience, which I
know attaining education is formany.
Dr. Leah OH (05:55):
Yeah, I just so much of what you said really
resonated, because I think, likemy educator heart is just so
excited right now. Because whatyou're saying, I experienced
that with the traditional model,the students, and I don't know
what to do here, I don't havethe time with us. And even when
I was doing my master's, I wasworking full time, but I just
(06:16):
got my foot in industry. And Iactually had asked my brother to
pay for my class upfront becauseof that tuition benefit, you
know, it didn't come in untilafter I submitted the grade. So
again, all of this to streamlineand to and to remove those
barriers. And to I'm thinkingyou so only one to 2% of
(06:37):
employees typically take thetraditional route.
Nick Greif (06:41):
Yep, that's correct.
And we, we have, you know, withour, with our corporate
partners, you know, we've seenparticipation rates up to 30% in
a given year, because of howeasy you make that on ramp. And
at the end of the day, it'sreally a question that you know,
the companies do you want peopleto use this benefit, because,
frankly, a lot of times, we lookat the benefits suites that we
see when we go to our HRbenefits page, some of those
(07:01):
things are there becauseemployees want them. And some of
them are just there, because itfeels like they should be and no
one actually really wants you touse it because it cost the
company money. And so for us, alot of our conversations with
corporations is about how thisis a strategic benefit. This is
not just me, look, obviously I'dlove all day just to be here to
get companies to pay for freeeducation for their employees,
(07:22):
my social impact publicpolicies, you know, my
background is all for that. But,you know, obviously, that's not
going to get a company to sayyes, and it's really about,
look, this is better for yourcompany, you're gonna retain
more of your employees, you'regonna be able to hire better
caliber of employees, you'regonna get a more engaged
workforce. And so all of that,you know, comps to make it a
really a win win for both sides.
(07:45):
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (07:46):
exactly. And if you're seeing up to 30%
engagement, and you're thinking,a department of ton, if three of
them are in there, and learningwe recognize it's probably going
to start rubbing off on others.
And if we're thinking of thatreturn on investment, if we have
people retooling and continuingto engage in this, then the
quality of what we're doing isbetter. So yeah, thanks. So
(08:06):
when, when, when I'm biased, I'man educator. But still, it's
really hard to see a downsidehere. And another thing I found
that your organization's doing,I really feel strongly about
this too, as stars are skilledworker, or skilled through
alternative routes. And and youtalk about how hard it can be to
(08:27):
get hired without a bachelor'sand that is just, that's just
the truth right now, it mightchange, but that's where we are.
And so this program, it helps toenrich people who are interested
in developing more skills. Sowhen I was thinking about this,
it was wondering, and this isprobably a question that you and
(08:47):
your team get. But how we'll dowhen we take individuals who go
through a program like stars?
How are they enrichingworkplaces organizations in a
way that maybe are traditionalthat bachelor's to industry that
route? Maybe that that those newhires might not necessarily be
(09:08):
able to do?
Nick Greif (09:10):
Yeah, I mean, look, all the research shows that
diverse workplaces create betteroutcomes, create more profit for
companies, you know, becausediversity of experience is
diversity of thought, right? Andyou're gonna get different
perspectives that are gonna helpyou catch, you know, pitfalls
you would have otherwise notnoticed. And so, what we see on
the kind of the skills basedhiring front, we're big
(09:30):
proponents of doing this, weactually work with, you know,
sort of our corporate partnersto help them translate what is
currently bachelor's degreerequired to the actual relevant
skills that are needed. So youknow, an example of that as
we've worked with Medtronic andmajor medical device
organization with 60 of theirdifferent job families, you
know, looking at skillstaxonomies doing the external
(09:52):
and internal research andstakeholder interviews to figure
out okay, what actually do youneed to do these roles
successfully, and then takingthat One line that says
bachelor's degree requiredactually breaking down, its into
its component skills. What thatallows you to do is open up your
hiring pool, you're going tohave more people eligible for
those roles, which when it's atight labor market, as it has
been the last few years, it'sreally valuable. But it's also
(10:16):
going to mean that you can bringin individuals that maybe
otherwise wouldn't be able tojoin your organization, because
they're locked out because ofthat requirement. And
unfortunately, through you know,the way that our country in its
social fabric or you know, thestruggles that we've had with
that often means thatunderrepresented groups, low
income individuals, tend to havea lower rate of bachelor's
(10:38):
degree attainment. And so you'reessentially locking out your
organization from a lot of itsdei goals. But the key here is
that we see this sometimes wherecompanies have D goals, and they
tend to try to accomplish them,or they don't try to But what
ends up happening as they, theymake progress on it, but often
at the entry level. And then asyou go further up the
(10:59):
organization, the organizationlooks less and less diverse. So
it's critical here is that itdidn't strike, we're not saying
bachelor's degrees aren'tvaluable, they're incredibly
valuable. They're as valuable asthey've ever been, if not more.
So all the research shows thatyou're going to get a much
greater career progression moretake home pay over time, you
know, if you have that degree,but should that be the barrier
(11:22):
to get in the door? Or shouldyou be able to have relevant
skills that you could havegotten all sorts of different
ways to get in the door, andthen internally, that company
invests in you helps you getyour bachelor's degree helps you
get the education, you need tocontinue to move up that career
and that career ladder. And nowwhat you've done is you've
actually created a workforcethat has diversity of thought,
diversity of experience, andit's going to be able to then
(11:45):
also be a really strong futureproofed talent pipeline that you
can ensure and, and growinternally. Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (11:54):
and there's so many I, I'm thinking about a culture
of an organization like that isone I want to be a part of one
that recognizes, you know,Strength isn't just tied to this
very traditional and limitingroute, one that prizes, and
supports ProfessionalDevelopment and Diversity in
(12:14):
different ways. And anotherthing I like that you brought up
in the answers kind of unpackingthat bachelor degree
requirements. So I think that'ssomething we use these HR
templates that have already beenthrough legal, and we don't
think about it again, we'redoing this for decades. Right?
So just taking a minute to stepback and saying, Well, what
(12:37):
really goes into this? What isit that we're expecting as part
of this, and a lot of times likecritical thought, right?
Reasoning, the ability to playnicely in the sandbox with
others, those are things likeyou're saying that we can
demonstrate in other ways. Soreally, really powerful work. So
my next question, and we've kindof hinted on this, but I'm
(12:58):
thinking about kind of thequestions you get about return
on investment are those tangibleoutcomes? So I bet employers you
get them and maybe potentialvendors collaboratives that
you're working with? So how doyou respond to those questions
about essentially, from theorganizational standpoint?
(13:20):
What's in it for me? Yeah,
Nick Greif (13:22):
definitely, you know, we're a social impact
company, and the companies wework with, often, you know,
we're aligned on mission, butnobody's a charity here, right?
The end of the day, it's like,if you're not going to find a
way to make the your investmentin any HR benefit worth your
while, as a company, you're notgoing to do it. And so for us,
you know, it's critical thatcompanies understand how this
(13:43):
investment is financiallybeneficial to them, because
otherwise they won't do it. Andif we're not going to be able to
accomplish that goal of gettingthat tuition free education
provided to individuals acrossthe country and, and the world.
And so there's kind of a fewmain components that, you know,
through our research and ourwork with, you know, corporate
partners, we've seen reallysignificant returns on
investment. The first and andsort of largest is around
(14:07):
retention. And I mentioned thisa little bit earlier, but
retaining your employeesincredibly valuable turnover is
so costly, the the cost to hirethe cost to train, the cost of
not having someone in that roleduring that interim period, is
really substantial. Way morethan what it costs to provide
somebody education, you know,and so what we see is that
participants in our educationprograms at the corporate
(14:29):
partners we work with retaininga 90 plus percent level versus
an average of 16%. So you'reseeing a 3x reduction in
attrition. So right there,you're basically paying for your
program just to your retentionbenefits alone. The more
importantly, an organizationwith low turnover as an
organization with a lot ofinstitutional knowledge, you've
got the ability to have peoplethat stay inside the company
(14:51):
that know that business, whothen can grow and promote into
greater roles and havingeducation and training along the
way enables us Those individualsto get those skills to be
eligible for those promotions.
And so what we also see isprogram participants are
promoted up to 2.5 to 3.5x, therate of non participants. The
other thing that we see, it'sbeen really exciting. And a few
(15:11):
of our corporate partners, wherewe are able to get some
demographic data is that, youknow, individuals from under
underrepresented backgroundstend to participate in these
programs at often double theirrate proportional to population
within the company. And so whatyou're seeing there is that
individuals who didn't reallyhave access to the traditional
(15:31):
formal education system, oftenprobably due to cost and the
fact that tuition costs haveincreased double inflation for
the last like 40 years. Now, itwasn't because he didn't want to
go to school, it's because therewere barriers in the way. So he
dropped those barriers, andthey're going to participate,
and thus be able to, you know,be promoted and work up the
career ladder. And then thefinal, you know, kind of big
(15:53):
three that we like to talk aboutis just, you know, future
proofing your workforce. And so,we've got, you know, everyone's
of course, going to talk abouttechnological innovation and AI
and how that's changing thenature of work and changing the
roles that, you know, that willneed to be that will need to
exist in the future. All of thatjust still boils down to, if you
don't have broad sets of skills,if you don't have the
(16:14):
opportunity to rescale orupskill, in a way that keeps
your talent, knowledge relevant,you know, it's gonna be really
hard for you to, you know,continue to to work in certain
segments of the workforce. Butfor companies, that's a that's
an existential threat, right.
And so, helping your employeesmanage that transition
transition isn't just for them,it's also for you as the
(16:34):
business. And so those are thekind of the main three areas
that we see really significantROI that usually leads to think
it's a 226% return oninvestment. So essentially,
you're getting $3 For everydollar you put in. Wow,
Dr. Leah OH (16:51):
that's incredible, right. And if we're thinking
about managing an organizationand large organizations from
that to a device manufacturer,if you tell me I can up my
retention for employees, thatthey're more likely to get
promoted. We have diversity andthinking, let's dei and also
future proofing. Like, well, sowhat's the catch? Right? And I'm
(17:15):
not asking you to tell me, Idon't think there's a catch.
Again, I am fully behind all ofthis. But it just, you know, it
makes sense for the social good.
And if that is not, like yousaid, are not running nonprofits
here. But at the same time, youhave such concrete positive
outcomes, it's really hard tosee a drawback to this. Yeah.
Nick Greif (17:41):
And that's, you know, that's why we see with, I
think, at least half of ourcorporate partners, you know,
within that first year that welaunched the program, half of
those partners then expand theprogram. And we've had zero
attrition in terms of corporatepartners that had lost the
program. So we've never had acorporate partner that lost the
program and later said, youknow, what, I don't want to do
this anymore. So the that showsyou that like, you know, once
(18:01):
once someone says, Oncesomeone's binding and says, Yes,
I think this makes sense. Ithink there's there's a return
here. But then you get toactually prove it in the
pudding. Right? They launch thatprogram. And then they all say,
yep, this was worth it. And manyof them say, it was worth it.
How do we go further? How do weincrease the intuition? How do
we allow? How do we enable aemployee to gift this benefit to
a dependent? Right? You know,there's all these different ways
(18:22):
you can Yeah, yeah, very
Dr. Leah OH (18:25):
cool. And listeners 100% of maintaining these
partnerships is literallyunheard of. So, so well done.
You know, you're doing it right.
So my follow up question again,a I'm an educator, I'm a
leadership communicationscholar. So for me this link
between learning and leadingthese are these are so tightly
(18:46):
wound, right, we can't untanglethem. So again, in my mind, at
least, we can't have one withoutthe other. But can you talk to
me about how your organization Ibet you have some great
conversations about thisconnection between learning
professional development andleadership? Yeah,
Nick Greif (19:08):
first 100% agree with you. We talked about
lifelong learning at instrideall the time. You know, we we
don't just offer the programs weoffer to corporate partners that
we work with, we also offerinternally, so we have our own
program called step forward. Wecover 100% of tuition and over
3000 different learning options,you know, all the way up to
doctor's degrees, you know, forall of our employees, and that's
(19:31):
because we believewholeheartedly in lifelong
learning and the value ofeducation and in particular,
around leadership. You know,frankly, if you're not a curious
person, and you're notinterested in continued
learning, I don't believe youcan be a really strong leader. I
just I don't I haven't seen it,right. Listening and curiosity
are key elements of successfulleadership. A leader isn't the
(19:53):
person who walks in the room andsays, here's what we do. A
leader is the person who walksin the room and says, What's the
All, what what are you seeing?
Tell me your thoughts. And theysit back and they wait. And when
everyone's had their chance totalk, and importantly, usually,
you make sure that the threepeople who didn't talk you at
you ask, Hey, Jane, Jan, whatwas your What was your thought,
(20:15):
and pull out the introverts aswell, then you've got all the
information to make areasonable, you know, reasonable
decision and take a leadershipaction. That's critical and
curiosity about your employees,your asking about their
experience, is also a huge partof leadership, you know, as you
leaders tend, of course, to skewa little older, for obvious
(20:36):
reasons, right? You don't getinto a leadership position,
usually at the first stage inyour career. But if you're not
thinking about and learning andreading about what's happening
for the experiences of thegenerations below you, then
you're not going to understandthem. And so that's all part of
the culture of lifelonglearning. And internally, it is
right. To go back to yourquestion more directly. We do
(20:58):
career boot camps, you know,within our company, we do career
asked me anything's with ourexecutives, you know, where it's
just an intimate group, weusually cap it at, like 20
participants, so that it can bea really authentic, honest
conversation, you know, andit's, it's literally ask me
anything, you know, whatever youwant to talk about, from a
(21:19):
career point of view. And so wedefinitely believe that that
accessibility, that openness andtalking about the hard topics is
also it's also critical. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (21:29):
Yeah. And so, so important, right. So even if you
have this leadership, formalleadership role, if we're not
continuing to learn, you know,kind of going back to this, that
we're not future proofingourselves, right, this idea of
being open and flexible, andrecognizing when you've never
arrived, because it's alwaysongoing, that if we're not doing
(21:50):
those things, then that tenureis going to be short lived, and
likely pretty rocky, as well. SoNick, another thing I was
thinking about, and gettingready to chat with you today,
and this is something I reallylove about what I get to do are
the success stories. So I betyou hear some neat ones, and B
individuals. And that might evenbe from folks in your
(22:12):
organization outside theorganization, or maybe from
employers. So I'm wondering ifyou have one or two of these
that really stand out to you.
Nick Greif (22:20):
I do and it's actually really one of the best
parts of the job and workinghere. So we actually do this
series of learner videos that weput together. And we first
released them internally, youknow, at our all company
meetings, and then we releasedthem externally. And it just
helps remind us as well as thepeople we talked to externally,
how important our mission is,you know, working in a corporate
(22:41):
role, sometimes you can losesight of the day to day impact
you're having on an individual'slife, you know, you're thinking
about strategy, or, you know,you're working on an op ed or a
press release, and you know,whatever it is, you're doing
your day to day, and you forgetsometimes that you know, you're
having these these big programsthat are growing and having
impact. But at the end of theday, it's an individual life
(23:03):
that's being changed by tuition,free education. And that's
having ripple effects in theirpersonal life, their family's
life and their community. Andso, you know, I can send you
some of these links to theselearning videos as you show us
later. Yeah, one of the videosthat I really enjoyed, that I
saw recently, it was about awoman named Ashley, who took
(23:23):
advantage lab corpse advantageeducation program offered
through inscribe, so she's amother of two and was feeling
fairly stagnant in her career,until LabCorp, offered their
education program that meantthat she could of course pursue
her education for free. So sheenrolled in a it focus program
and graduated I believe thispast May. And a few months
(23:44):
later, she was promoted to be anIT Business Analyst at at
LabCorp. And so what that storytells me is it's really impact
on both sides. So for her, ofcourse, she's growing her career
increased take home pay, youknow, helpful for her family,
and her feeling of self worthand what her career goals are.
But for LabCorp it rolls are inhot demand, they are hard to
(24:06):
fill, it is it is a verychallenging place to to hiring.
And so through this program,whatever that costed that it you
know, certain certificate ordegree that you know that she
enrolled, and they didn't haveto hire a new person to do that
they were able to upskillsomebody internally, that person
already knew the businessalready adopted all the
(24:26):
trainings, and the proceduresand HR and all that stuff
immediately could transition andstart day one essentially having
impact. And so you're seeingthat where that Win Win comes in
internally. The other quickexample I give you is for a
organization calledIntermountain Health and so
Intermountain is a health systemin what I've learned recently is
called the intermountain west,which apparently are the states
(24:49):
to the west of the West Coaststates, but east of the Midwest.
So all those states learnsomething new. I didn't know
that there was another phrasewhat was between the Midwest and
the west coast, but I alwayswondered cuz you've really
lovely states there that soapparently is the intermountain
west. So anyway, they're a majorhealth provider there. And they
have just incredible resultswith their program. And, in
(25:13):
particular, you know, at thistime, we've got a national
nursing shortage, hmm, you'veprobably heard about how
traveling nurses can make justincredibly high salaries, as you
can imagine the ability to solveto do the mission, I guess I
said earlier, you know, we'renot all charities here, but
technically, they are nonprofit.
And so you know, for them, 100%of their registered nurses that
(25:34):
have enrolled in bachelors ofscience in nursing degrees, 100%
of men retain, since the startof the program, whether they
finished the program, they'restill in the program. And so
when you think about the valueof having trained nurses at your
health system to be able todeliver health care to people
who need it, and accomplish yourmission as a health system. I
mean, it's just, it's juststaggering. But that's what
(25:55):
happens when you invest in yourpeople they invest.
Dr. Leah OH (26:00):
Yeah, and it's, it's just so powerful, because
they think the the Atmelantiquated but pretty
traditional view isorganizations were like, Why am
I going to do this for myemployees, right? Like it is,
I'm not a charity, butrecognizing that if we just take
one step back a little bit moremacro approach and recognizing
we're retaining theserelationships they have, we're
(26:22):
retaining the organizationalknowledge. Right, and we're able
to use you're saying upskillthem at the same point, then
then, as you know, that iswhat's in it for you
organization. So, yeah, really,really phenomenal how it's so
mutually beneficial there. SoNick, I have two final questions
(26:43):
for you. They're related. Andthis is a way we always and the
communicative leader, because Ithink that there are so many
folks who want to make theirwork life what they want it to
be. And with leadership adviceand communication, these are
things we don't need to spendyears necessarily working on, we
can make small changes that willlead to big differences. And
(27:06):
it's clear, you're immersed inthis field, you know,
leadership, you're incommunications, this framing,
these talking points probablyfall to you and your team. So
I'm wondering, you know,considering all of your, your
wealth of experience, what aresome recommendations you have
for our title leaders out thereand managers, directors, maybe
at the C suite? What what do youwant to leave them with?
Nick Greif (27:30):
Yeah, there's, there's kind of a give you the
big three, sort of leadershipand management mantras that I
try to live by. One is, youknow, create psychological
safety. The other is make itclear what the commander's
intent is. And the third isfoster autonomy and ownership
and your people sort of breakeach of those down.
(27:51):
psychological safety, hopefully,your listeners have heard about,
but if they haven't, it's reallyjust about making sure that
people feel comfortable in yourorganization, sharing their
ideas, pointing out problems,and having respectful
disagreements, we all know andhave worked for or seen leaders
that are sort of command andcontrol, you know, do it do it
(28:14):
how I say, individuals, or tryto shift blame to others, you
know, to shifted away fromthemselves, that is incredibly
short sighted, and leads to anorganization that is brittle,
and is unlikely to succeed. Andthe reason for that is, I think,
quite obvious, which is that ifpeople won't speak up, you're
never gonna get their bestideas, you're not tapping into
(28:34):
and maximizing their potential,you're actually minimizing their
potential because all they'regoing to do is paint within the
lines you give them. But yourlines and what you think the
right lines are, are alwaystrue. And they're often limited
by your own personalexperiences. Each of us is just
a vessel for what we've gottenso far in our X number of years
on this earth. And the idea thatyou wouldn't want to maximize
that by adding the years ofexperience of all the people on
(28:56):
your team by making itpsychologically safe for them to
share and speak up. Is is ashame online, so empower people
to feel psychologically safe.
And the way to do that, ofcourse, is, you know, not to
shame people not to, you know,ship when your team like as a
leader, it's your job to fall onthe grenade, and it's your job
to provide praise, and pass onthe great work that your team
(29:18):
does. At the end of the day,even if you want to be totally
selfless about it, that's gonnaget you promoted far faster, you
know, this one, this one wasthis is a slight digression.
But, you know, my philosophy hasalways been like, I want to make
myself replaceable, and alsoknow who my replacement is
because the only way you'removing up the career ladder is
if you've got somebody ready totake your shoes, because if
(29:39):
you've made yourselfindispensable in your role, and
you've pushed down or worse,denigrated those people in the
eyes of upper management, thenthey're not going to feel
comfortable moving you from thatspot. You want the view. So
that's, that's one psychologicalsafety commander's intent and
other one, you know, it's aoriginally military concept, but
it's absolutely migrated over inthe privates. vector as it
(29:59):
should. And that's the idea thatyour people should understand
not just what you want them todo, but why you want them to do.
And that's because at the end ofthe day, you know, in a battle,
right on the military side, aplan is only as good as the
first shot that's fired. Andthis is true in the corporate
and the corporate world, too. Soif people understand what the
goal is, then when they actuallygo out in the world to do it,
(30:22):
they don't have to come back toyou every time, there's a slight
change, to say, hey, what do Ineed to do it this way, or what
do I do next, which, of course,as a manager would suck up all
your time, and micro managershave this problem. You want
people to know, okay, I knowwhere the goal is. And I can
make my own decisions on how toget there, while checking back
occasionally to make sure thatthey're not, you know, off the
reservation. And the third isrelated to that, which is
(30:43):
autonomy, and ownership, peopleon your team are going to hit,
you know, whatever theirequivalent of 100 110% is, if
you've given them some amount ofautonomy and ownership, pride in
their work to make sure thatthey know Hey, you you own this
project, I the buck may stopwith me. But at the end of the
day like this is this is yourarea. And when you do well, and
(31:05):
when this area does, well, I'mgoing to make sure people know
that it was about you. So forme, personally, I make this
clear. And I manage two teamsand instruct one around revenue
operations, which includes youknow, responding to requests for
proposal and, and others rampcommunications. And so, you
know, with my team members onboth sides, I make it very clear
to them that, you know, I've gotlimited attention span, I get
(31:26):
pulled in a lot of things like Ineed them to really own their
areas of operation. And it'syour job to make sure that that
RFP is going to be reallystrong, and I'm going to come
back, I'm going to review it,and I'm going to be your
support, and I'm here to bounceideas off. But you're you're the
one who has to figure out how tomake this happen. Same on the
communication side. And thatallows those individuals to rise
to their best level. And it alsofrees you up as a manager to do
(31:50):
the things that frankly, you'reyou know, being paid to do,
which is to think strategicallytake time to work cross
functionally, not just to managethe things that are you know,
that your team has been set upto do to long long answer your
question, but hopefully,hopefully helpful.
Dr. Leah OH (32:06):
No, I really, really thoughtful response. I
love to I mean, these all tiedtogether so nicely, right? I
think if we're thinking aboutthis, giving authority and
ownership, I think so manyemployees really just want to be
seen and valued for what theywere hired to do. And when
(32:26):
you're giving them thatopportunity, then that should be
tied into that psychologicalsafety as well. And recognizing
that I have a place here, I amvalued here. Right? All right,
people are going to look to mefor these things. And to with
the with the intent, it's onething to know what we're doing
(32:47):
now. But having that deeperlevel understanding, like you
said, when something changeswhen we need to shift a little
when someone needs a decisionand a meeting and you aren't
physically there, then employeesable with some, you know,
relative degree of competence tobe able to to make that
decision. Yeah.
Nick Greif (33:08):
And the thing I'd say is, it all ties back to
learning as well, right? If youhave a good employee, you don't
want them to leave. And the waythat they're not going to leave
is if they continue to learn andgrow. And so that autonomy and
ownership allows them to stretchtheir wings and allows them to
learn new things. You know,you're you're there to help
guide them and make sure theydon't, you know, they don't fly
too close to the sun. Right. Butyou know, at the end of the day,
(33:29):
that's how they learn. And theirlearning is going to benefit
you. But also keep theminterested and keep them around
and not have them say okay, I'mstunted here, and I'm gonna
leave. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (33:40):
Yeah. So all things that I mean, that's going to be
helpful these tips helpful nomatter what. And so I'm
wondering now my follow up tothat is now we're thinking about
employees all ranks allindustries. So maybe we don't
have that formal title. Andmaybe we don't want that formal
title. But regardless, what whatadvice do you want to leave
(34:01):
those friends with? Yeah,
Nick Greif (34:04):
it's easily my easily my favorite question. And
simply simply stay curious. Makesure you're always learning. And
the one that I think prompts themost introspection when I say is
don't get too comfortable. Andwhat I mean by that is, you
know, there are a lot of peopleI see that gets stagnant in
their career because they getinto a role that they're good
(34:26):
at, and they do a good job. Andthey get comfortable. Once they
understand all the facets of thejob, they know how to execute
it, day in day out, they can doyou know, they can do a passable
job, people to get praise, theyget, you know, that 3% annual
raise. But if you're toocomfortable and you aren't
stretching into new roles,you're not stretching into new
projects, occasionally changingcompanies, you know, if you're
(34:48):
not finding ways to do newthings, you're not learning
anymore. If you're not learninganymore. You're not going to
advance in your career becausethe folks that did Side
promotions that do that seevalue, they see the people that
go above and beyond. And thatdon't mean that in terms of
amount of hours worked, right?
This isn't about work 100 hoursa week that actually is often
(35:09):
not correlated, if notnegatively, to promotion. It's
about the people that lookaround and ask curious questions
and say, why does this work thatway? And should it? And the
thing that often happens is yousee people that ask that
question, they take step one,they don't take step two, which
is to go learn the answer. Andthen they don't take step three,
which is to say, hey, I havesome ideas about how we could
(35:31):
how we could change that, evenif it's not in your lane, might
be someone else's land. Andthat's okay, as long as you do
go through the right channels,you've worked with that person.
And then you guys together cango up to management, say, hey,
we had this idea, we think thiscould work. And, you know, two
times out of three, managementmay say, we already thought
about it, we don't want to doit. But one time out to three,
it's going to be important, it'sgoing to make a difference. And
(35:52):
you got to learn all three ofthose. And the one of the three
that actually makes realdifference highlights your value
to management in a way thatmakes you much more likely to
move upwards in your career.
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (36:04):
it's so thoughtful, too. And there's this whole line
of literature out there thatwhen we're engaged, when we're
curious, that spills over intohome life, right, so whether it
is the version of us that comeshome to dinner, and that is his
energy to hang out with thefamily or the kids or to, you
(36:25):
know, engage in recognizedsports, or are the one who's
not, you know, stagnant at work,and kind of brings that a home
because things just aren't quiteas exciting as they once were.
So their curiosity is a greatway to keep kind of plugged in
there, Nick, thank you, oh, I'msorry, go ahead.
Nick Greif (36:46):
say one last thing, you know, I find that it's, it's
a manager's job, it's yourmanager's job to find
interesting things for you todo. And maybe that's only 20% of
your of your job. But the thingthat I've always told my bosses
is, if I get bored, I will tellyou, if I'm still bored, six
months after I tell you, I won'tbe here anymore. And I think
(37:06):
that's a mantra that anyemployee should feel comfortable
having a conversation with theirboss, and that's going to
highlight to them. One that theyhave to keep them interested by
giving them giving themassignments, it's not something
else that was saying, hey,entertaining with toys, it's
like, yeah, hey, understand, youknow, which today's means you're
taking on a little bit morework. But it also highlights to
your to your direct report toyour manager, that I'm hungry, I
(37:30):
want to do I want to grow, thatis helpful, because that will
keep them focused on you andyour development. Yeah, I
Dr. Leah OH (37:36):
really love that.
And that's something I'm gonnathink about when I'm coaching my
students who are neargraduation. Because I think that
as an employee coming in saying,I'm gonna let you know, and then
I'm gonna give it six months.
But I think that demonstrates somuch to the manager about what a
price employee they have therewho is communicative and, you
(38:01):
know, wants to be engaged, andreally clear about what
boundaries might be becauseit's, it's not going to be the
right environment for them.
Yeah, well, thank you, Nick.
This was really a funconversation. I love this
intersection of leading andeducation. I've learned so much
(38:21):
and thank you to the work thatyou do with your team, with your
organization and withincommunities.
Nick Greif (38:27):
It's my it's my absolute pleasure. Really
appreciate you having me on hereto talk about my leadership
journey and the work that we'redoing here at Instagram.
Dr. Leah OH (38:36):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. Lookingforward to chatting with you
again soon on the communicativeleader.
Nik grief is a VP of go to market strategy and
communications at instride. Nickknows his stuff. He specializes
in developing initiatives thatdrive organizational growth,
social responsibility and bottomline results. Nick talks to us
about the intersection ofleadership and education and
(00:20):
helps us to consider innovativeways to improve organizational
culture and enhance diversity inorganizations. Hello, and
welcome to the communicativeleader hosted by me, Dr. Leah
Omilion-Hodges. My friends callme Dr. OH. I'm a professor of
communication and leadershipcommunication expert, and the
(00:41):
communicative leader. We'reworking to make your work life
what you want it to be. Nick,I'm really excited to chat with
you today and explore thatintersection of leadership and
education and communication. Andbefore we do that, can you give
us some background, maybe whatled you to where you are today?
Nick Greif (01:03):
Yeah, happy to and really appreciate you having me
on today. Docker. So my journeyhas mostly been about following
interesting leadershipopportunities. Now you could see
that Curiosity has been woventhe whole way through. So I
began my career in managementconsulting, because I knew that
that would expose me to a lot ofdifferent projects and
challenges, and helping me builda wide foundation of knowledge.
(01:26):
And then from there, I movedover into public policy, which
had long been a passion of mine.
So I became an economic adviserto the mayor of Los Angeles, and
then later spent time as apolicy director, and finally,
Chief of Staff for a citylegislator. And working with
elected leaders in particularwas definitely a crash course in
both leadership andcommunication. So after about
eight years in government, Ithen stepped back into the
(01:49):
private sector to seek newchallenges, and ended up in
social impact technology. And socurrently, that's where I work,
I work at a company calledinstride. Where a social impact
at tech startup educationtechnology, that is changing how
employees upskill and attaineducation, like getting their
employers to offer tuition freeeducation to their staff.
Dr. Leah OH (02:12):
Yeah, really, really cool. Nick, and I love
what really stuck with me wasthat curity city driven career,
because then you're engaged,you're having fun, you're
learning. And I think that helpsto guard us against so many of
you know, not feeling motivated,not feeling driven, not not
knowing what's next. But by kindof tugging on that curiosity.
(02:35):
Thread. You know, you you've hadan incredible career and so much
to go, yeah. So we've kind ofhinted on your organization's
you're within stride, and it'sreally innovative. So instead of
in, this is my take, so let meknow, if I if I'm not quite
hitting the nail on the head. Soinstead of that traditional
(02:56):
tuition benefit that many don'ttake advantage of your
organization offers theseprofessional customized
development programs foremployees. So a two parter can
talk to us about this. And whythis approach over the
traditional model?
Nick Greif (03:13):
Yeah, you're, you've got 100%, right. So traditional
tuition reimbursement, which forthose that aren't familiar, is
where you know, you as anemployee are offered this
benefit from your company. Andthey're essentially going to
repay you for some or all of thetuition you spend on your
education. But it's on you to gofigure out where you want to
study what you want to study howto find the cash to pay up
(03:35):
front, and then get the rightgrades, you need to then submit
for reimbursement which couldtake six to nine to 12 months
after you initially spend thatmoney. And so the main problems
with that model, and what we'retrying to fix, in addition to
the fact that only one to 2% ofemployees, and of using that
benefit in a given year, is thatit puts up a lot of walls, a lot
of barriers to, frankly, theexact employees that really
(03:58):
could use his benefit and makethe most out of it. In
particular, the fact that you'vegot to shell out 1000s of
dollars for your tuition aheadof time means that you're
already locking out everybodywho doesn't have 1000s of
dollars in their pocket thatthey can, you know, spend and
wait six months to get back.
You're also telling people whohave had either, you know, what
we call educational trauma had atough experience the education
world, you're saying, hey,you've got to go and figure this
(04:21):
all out. Maybe Maybe maybe thecomplexity of the system didn't
make you feel very good lasttime. And now we're saying
again, if you want to use thisbenefit, you've got to go figure
it out, figure out all theapplications get it figured out
the forms, you get to decidewhat you want to take. So we
take all that and we say okay,let's if we were to redesign
this from bottom to top, howwould we make this as accessible
and open to employees aspossible to get that education
(04:42):
so we do a few things. One, wework with education providers,
ranging from skills providers,like simply learn high school
diploma providers, like CareerOnline High School, all the way
to doctorates degrees, Mastersbachelors places like Arizona
State University And we create adirect billing model where the
employer, the company paysdirectly to the academic
(05:03):
provider, the employee never hasto pay any money out of pocket.
The second thing we do is we putall those options together into
a marketplace, it's gotten, youknow, up to 3000 plus options
for the employee to really lookinto, and it's all in one place,
easy for them to figure out,okay, I'm looking for, you know,
XYZ learning opportunity. Andyou could filter by all those
(05:23):
things, there's even apathfinder that will ask you
questions, you know, what areyou looking for in education
journey, and spit out, you know,the types of programs that align
with your interests. And thenthe final thing we do is we have
academic coaches, who will reachout to and talk to, you know,
registered participantsemployees at these companies,
and, and understand their needs,and help them understand their
(05:45):
benefit. And so they've gotsomeone holding their hand the
whole way, you know, in cases isa daunting experience, which I
know attaining education is formany.
Dr. Leah OH (05:55):
Yeah, I just so much of what you said really
resonated, because I think, likemy educator heart is just so
excited right now. Because whatyou're saying, I experienced
that with the traditional model,the students, and I don't know
what to do here, I don't havethe time with us. And even when
I was doing my master's, I wasworking full time, but I just
(06:16):
got my foot in industry. And Iactually had asked my brother to
pay for my class upfront becauseof that tuition benefit, you
know, it didn't come in untilafter I submitted the grade. So
again, all of this to streamlineand to and to remove those
barriers. And to I'm thinkingyou so only one to 2% of
(06:37):
employees typically take thetraditional route.
Nick Greif (06:41):
Yep, that's correct.
And we, we have, you know, withour, with our corporate
partners, you know, we've seenparticipation rates up to 30% in
a given year, because of howeasy you make that on ramp. And
at the end of the day, it'sreally a question that you know,
the companies do you want peopleto use this benefit, because,
frankly, a lot of times, we lookat the benefits suites that we
see when we go to our HRbenefits page, some of those
(07:01):
things are there becauseemployees want them. And some of
them are just there, because itfeels like they should be and no
one actually really wants you touse it because it cost the
company money. And so for us, alot of our conversations with
corporations is about how thisis a strategic benefit. This is
not just me, look, obviously I'dlove all day just to be here to
get companies to pay for freeeducation for their employees,
(07:22):
my social impact publicpolicies, you know, my
background is all for that. But,you know, obviously, that's not
going to get a company to sayyes, and it's really about,
look, this is better for yourcompany, you're gonna retain
more of your employees, you'regonna be able to hire better
caliber of employees, you'regonna get a more engaged
workforce. And so all of that,you know, comps to make it a
really a win win for both sides.
(07:45):
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (07:46):
exactly. And if you're seeing up to 30%
engagement, and you're thinking,a department of ton, if three of
them are in there, and learningwe recognize it's probably going
to start rubbing off on others.
And if we're thinking of thatreturn on investment, if we have
people retooling and continuingto engage in this, then the
quality of what we're doing isbetter. So yeah, thanks. So
(08:06):
when, when, when I'm biased, I'man educator. But still, it's
really hard to see a downsidehere. And another thing I found
that your organization's doing,I really feel strongly about
this too, as stars are skilledworker, or skilled through
alternative routes. And and youtalk about how hard it can be to
(08:27):
get hired without a bachelor'sand that is just, that's just
the truth right now, it mightchange, but that's where we are.
And so this program, it helps toenrich people who are interested
in developing more skills. Sowhen I was thinking about this,
it was wondering, and this isprobably a question that you and
(08:47):
your team get. But how we'll dowhen we take individuals who go
through a program like stars?
How are they enrichingworkplaces organizations in a
way that maybe are traditionalthat bachelor's to industry that
route? Maybe that that those newhires might not necessarily be
(09:08):
able to do?
Nick Greif (09:10):
Yeah, I mean, look, all the research shows that
diverse workplaces create betteroutcomes, create more profit for
companies, you know, becausediversity of experience is
diversity of thought, right? Andyou're gonna get different
perspectives that are gonna helpyou catch, you know, pitfalls
you would have otherwise notnoticed. And so, what we see on
the kind of the skills basedhiring front, we're big
(09:30):
proponents of doing this, weactually work with, you know,
sort of our corporate partnersto help them translate what is
currently bachelor's degreerequired to the actual relevant
skills that are needed. So youknow, an example of that as
we've worked with Medtronic andmajor medical device
organization with 60 of theirdifferent job families, you
know, looking at skillstaxonomies doing the external
(09:52):
and internal research andstakeholder interviews to figure
out okay, what actually do youneed to do these roles
successfully, and then takingthat One line that says
bachelor's degree requiredactually breaking down, its into
its component skills. What thatallows you to do is open up your
hiring pool, you're going tohave more people eligible for
those roles, which when it's atight labor market, as it has
been the last few years, it'sreally valuable. But it's also
(10:16):
going to mean that you can bringin individuals that maybe
otherwise wouldn't be able tojoin your organization, because
they're locked out because ofthat requirement. And
unfortunately, through you know,the way that our country in its
social fabric or you know, thestruggles that we've had with
that often means thatunderrepresented groups, low
income individuals, tend to havea lower rate of bachelor's
(10:38):
degree attainment. And so you'reessentially locking out your
organization from a lot of itsdei goals. But the key here is
that we see this sometimes wherecompanies have D goals, and they
tend to try to accomplish them,or they don't try to But what
ends up happening as they, theymake progress on it, but often
at the entry level. And then asyou go further up the
(10:59):
organization, the organizationlooks less and less diverse. So
it's critical here is that itdidn't strike, we're not saying
bachelor's degrees aren'tvaluable, they're incredibly
valuable. They're as valuable asthey've ever been, if not more.
So all the research shows thatyou're going to get a much
greater career progression moretake home pay over time, you
know, if you have that degree,but should that be the barrier
(11:22):
to get in the door? Or shouldyou be able to have relevant
skills that you could havegotten all sorts of different
ways to get in the door, andthen internally, that company
invests in you helps you getyour bachelor's degree helps you
get the education, you need tocontinue to move up that career
and that career ladder. And nowwhat you've done is you've
actually created a workforcethat has diversity of thought,
diversity of experience, andit's going to be able to then
(11:45):
also be a really strong futureproofed talent pipeline that you
can ensure and, and growinternally. Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (11:54):
and there's so many I, I'm thinking about a culture
of an organization like that isone I want to be a part of one
that recognizes, you know,Strength isn't just tied to this
very traditional and limitingroute, one that prizes, and
supports ProfessionalDevelopment and Diversity in
(12:14):
different ways. And anotherthing I like that you brought up
in the answers kind of unpackingthat bachelor degree
requirements. So I think that'ssomething we use these HR
templates that have already beenthrough legal, and we don't
think about it again, we'redoing this for decades. Right?
So just taking a minute to stepback and saying, Well, what
(12:37):
really goes into this? What isit that we're expecting as part
of this, and a lot of times likecritical thought, right?
Reasoning, the ability to playnicely in the sandbox with
others, those are things likeyou're saying that we can
demonstrate in other ways. Soreally, really powerful work. So
my next question, and we've kindof hinted on this, but I'm
(12:58):
thinking about kind of thequestions you get about return
on investment are those tangibleoutcomes? So I bet employers you
get them and maybe potentialvendors collaboratives that
you're working with? So how doyou respond to those questions
about essentially, from theorganizational standpoint?
(13:20):
What's in it for me? Yeah,
Nick Greif (13:22):
definitely, you know, we're a social impact
company, and the companies wework with, often, you know,
we're aligned on mission, butnobody's a charity here, right?
The end of the day, it's like,if you're not going to find a
way to make the your investmentin any HR benefit worth your
while, as a company, you're notgoing to do it. And so for us,
you know, it's critical thatcompanies understand how this
(13:43):
investment is financiallybeneficial to them, because
otherwise they won't do it. Andif we're not going to be able to
accomplish that goal of gettingthat tuition free education
provided to individuals acrossthe country and, and the world.
And so there's kind of a fewmain components that, you know,
through our research and ourwork with, you know, corporate
partners, we've seen reallysignificant returns on
investment. The first and andsort of largest is around
(14:07):
retention. And I mentioned thisa little bit earlier, but
retaining your employeesincredibly valuable turnover is
so costly, the the cost to hirethe cost to train, the cost of
not having someone in that roleduring that interim period, is
really substantial. Way morethan what it costs to provide
somebody education, you know,and so what we see is that
participants in our educationprograms at the corporate
(14:29):
partners we work with retaininga 90 plus percent level versus
an average of 16%. So you'reseeing a 3x reduction in
attrition. So right there,you're basically paying for your
program just to your retentionbenefits alone. The more
importantly, an organizationwith low turnover as an
organization with a lot ofinstitutional knowledge, you've
got the ability to have peoplethat stay inside the company
(14:51):
that know that business, whothen can grow and promote into
greater roles and havingeducation and training along the
way enables us Those individualsto get those skills to be
eligible for those promotions.
And so what we also see isprogram participants are
promoted up to 2.5 to 3.5x, therate of non participants. The
other thing that we see, it'sbeen really exciting. And a few
(15:11):
of our corporate partners, wherewe are able to get some
demographic data is that, youknow, individuals from under
underrepresented backgroundstend to participate in these
programs at often double theirrate proportional to population
within the company. And so whatyou're seeing there is that
individuals who didn't reallyhave access to the traditional
(15:31):
formal education system, oftenprobably due to cost and the
fact that tuition costs haveincreased double inflation for
the last like 40 years. Now, itwasn't because he didn't want to
go to school, it's because therewere barriers in the way. So he
dropped those barriers, andthey're going to participate,
and thus be able to, you know,be promoted and work up the
career ladder. And then thefinal, you know, kind of big
(15:53):
three that we like to talk aboutis just, you know, future
proofing your workforce. And so,we've got, you know, everyone's
of course, going to talk abouttechnological innovation and AI
and how that's changing thenature of work and changing the
roles that, you know, that willneed to be that will need to
exist in the future. All of thatjust still boils down to, if you
don't have broad sets of skills,if you don't have the
(16:14):
opportunity to rescale orupskill, in a way that keeps
your talent, knowledge relevant,you know, it's gonna be really
hard for you to, you know,continue to to work in certain
segments of the workforce. Butfor companies, that's a that's
an existential threat, right.
And so, helping your employeesmanage that transition
transition isn't just for them,it's also for you as the
(16:34):
business. And so those are thekind of the main three areas
that we see really significantROI that usually leads to think
it's a 226% return oninvestment. So essentially,
you're getting $3 For everydollar you put in. Wow,
Dr. Leah OH (16:51):
that's incredible, right. And if we're thinking
about managing an organizationand large organizations from
that to a device manufacturer,if you tell me I can up my
retention for employees, thatthey're more likely to get
promoted. We have diversity andthinking, let's dei and also
future proofing. Like, well, sowhat's the catch? Right? And I'm
(17:15):
not asking you to tell me, Idon't think there's a catch.
Again, I am fully behind all ofthis. But it just, you know, it
makes sense for the social good.
And if that is not, like yousaid, are not running nonprofits
here. But at the same time, youhave such concrete positive
outcomes, it's really hard tosee a drawback to this. Yeah.
Nick Greif (17:41):
And that's, you know, that's why we see with, I
think, at least half of ourcorporate partners, you know,
within that first year that welaunched the program, half of
those partners then expand theprogram. And we've had zero
attrition in terms of corporatepartners that had lost the
program. So we've never had acorporate partner that lost the
program and later said, youknow, what, I don't want to do
this anymore. So the that showsyou that like, you know, once
(18:01):
once someone says, Oncesomeone's binding and says, Yes,
I think this makes sense. Ithink there's there's a return
here. But then you get toactually prove it in the
pudding. Right? They launch thatprogram. And then they all say,
yep, this was worth it. And manyof them say, it was worth it.
How do we go further? How do weincrease the intuition? How do
we allow? How do we enable aemployee to gift this benefit to
a dependent? Right? You know,there's all these different ways
(18:22):
you can Yeah, yeah, very
Dr. Leah OH (18:25):
cool. And listeners 100% of maintaining these
partnerships is literallyunheard of. So, so well done.
You know, you're doing it right.
So my follow up question again,a I'm an educator, I'm a
leadership communicationscholar. So for me this link
between learning and leadingthese are these are so tightly
(18:46):
wound, right, we can't untanglethem. So again, in my mind, at
least, we can't have one withoutthe other. But can you talk to
me about how your organization Ibet you have some great
conversations about thisconnection between learning
professional development andleadership? Yeah,
Nick Greif (19:08):
first 100% agree with you. We talked about
lifelong learning at instrideall the time. You know, we we
don't just offer the programs weoffer to corporate partners that
we work with, we also offerinternally, so we have our own
program called step forward. Wecover 100% of tuition and over
3000 different learning options,you know, all the way up to
doctor's degrees, you know, forall of our employees, and that's
(19:31):
because we believewholeheartedly in lifelong
learning and the value ofeducation and in particular,
around leadership. You know,frankly, if you're not a curious
person, and you're notinterested in continued
learning, I don't believe youcan be a really strong leader. I
just I don't I haven't seen it,right. Listening and curiosity
are key elements of successfulleadership. A leader isn't the
(19:53):
person who walks in the room andsays, here's what we do. A
leader is the person who walksin the room and says, What's the
All, what what are you seeing?
Tell me your thoughts. And theysit back and they wait. And when
everyone's had their chance totalk, and importantly, usually,
you make sure that the threepeople who didn't talk you at
you ask, Hey, Jane, Jan, whatwas your What was your thought,
(20:15):
and pull out the introverts aswell, then you've got all the
information to make areasonable, you know, reasonable
decision and take a leadershipaction. That's critical and
curiosity about your employees,your asking about their
experience, is also a huge partof leadership, you know, as you
leaders tend, of course, to skewa little older, for obvious
(20:36):
reasons, right? You don't getinto a leadership position,
usually at the first stage inyour career. But if you're not
thinking about and learning andreading about what's happening
for the experiences of thegenerations below you, then
you're not going to understandthem. And so that's all part of
the culture of lifelonglearning. And internally, it is
right. To go back to yourquestion more directly. We do
(20:58):
career boot camps, you know,within our company, we do career
asked me anything's with ourexecutives, you know, where it's
just an intimate group, weusually cap it at, like 20
participants, so that it can bea really authentic, honest
conversation, you know, andit's, it's literally ask me
anything, you know, whatever youwant to talk about, from a
(21:19):
career point of view. And so wedefinitely believe that that
accessibility, that openness andtalking about the hard topics is
also it's also critical. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (21:29):
Yeah. And so, so important, right. So even if you
have this leadership, formalleadership role, if we're not
continuing to learn, you know,kind of going back to this, that
we're not future proofingourselves, right, this idea of
being open and flexible, andrecognizing when you've never
arrived, because it's alwaysongoing, that if we're not doing
(21:50):
those things, then that tenureis going to be short lived, and
likely pretty rocky, as well. SoNick, another thing I was
thinking about, and gettingready to chat with you today,
and this is something I reallylove about what I get to do are
the success stories. So I betyou hear some neat ones, and B
individuals. And that might evenbe from folks in your
(22:12):
organization outside theorganization, or maybe from
employers. So I'm wondering ifyou have one or two of these
that really stand out to you.
Nick Greif (22:20):
I do and it's actually really one of the best
parts of the job and workinghere. So we actually do this
series of learner videos that weput together. And we first
released them internally, youknow, at our all company
meetings, and then we releasedthem externally. And it just
helps remind us as well as thepeople we talked to externally,
how important our mission is,you know, working in a corporate
(22:41):
role, sometimes you can losesight of the day to day impact
you're having on an individual'slife, you know, you're thinking
about strategy, or, you know,you're working on an op ed or a
press release, and you know,whatever it is, you're doing
your day to day, and you forgetsometimes that you know, you're
having these these big programsthat are growing and having
impact. But at the end of theday, it's an individual life
(23:03):
that's being changed by tuition,free education. And that's
having ripple effects in theirpersonal life, their family's
life and their community. Andso, you know, I can send you
some of these links to theselearning videos as you show us
later. Yeah, one of the videosthat I really enjoyed, that I
saw recently, it was about awoman named Ashley, who took
(23:23):
advantage lab corpse advantageeducation program offered
through inscribe, so she's amother of two and was feeling
fairly stagnant in her career,until LabCorp, offered their
education program that meantthat she could of course pursue
her education for free. So sheenrolled in a it focus program
and graduated I believe thispast May. And a few months
(23:44):
later, she was promoted to be anIT Business Analyst at at
LabCorp. And so what that storytells me is it's really impact
on both sides. So for her, ofcourse, she's growing her career
increased take home pay, youknow, helpful for her family,
and her feeling of self worthand what her career goals are.
But for LabCorp it rolls are inhot demand, they are hard to
(24:06):
fill, it is it is a verychallenging place to to hiring.
And so through this program,whatever that costed that it you
know, certain certificate ordegree that you know that she
enrolled, and they didn't haveto hire a new person to do that
they were able to upskillsomebody internally, that person
already knew the businessalready adopted all the
(24:26):
trainings, and the proceduresand HR and all that stuff
immediately could transition andstart day one essentially having
impact. And so you're seeingthat where that Win Win comes in
internally. The other quickexample I give you is for a
organization calledIntermountain Health and so
Intermountain is a health systemin what I've learned recently is
called the intermountain west,which apparently are the states
(24:49):
to the west of the West Coaststates, but east of the Midwest.
So all those states learnsomething new. I didn't know
that there was another phrasewhat was between the Midwest and
the west coast, but I alwayswondered cuz you've really
lovely states there that soapparently is the intermountain
west. So anyway, they're a majorhealth provider there. And they
have just incredible resultswith their program. And, in
(25:13):
particular, you know, at thistime, we've got a national
nursing shortage, hmm, you'veprobably heard about how
traveling nurses can make justincredibly high salaries, as you
can imagine the ability to solveto do the mission, I guess I
said earlier, you know, we'renot all charities here, but
technically, they are nonprofit.
And so you know, for them, 100%of their registered nurses that
(25:34):
have enrolled in bachelors ofscience in nursing degrees, 100%
of men retain, since the startof the program, whether they
finished the program, they'restill in the program. And so
when you think about the valueof having trained nurses at your
health system to be able todeliver health care to people
who need it, and accomplish yourmission as a health system. I
mean, it's just, it's juststaggering. But that's what
(25:55):
happens when you invest in yourpeople they invest.
Dr. Leah OH (26:00):
Yeah, and it's, it's just so powerful, because
they think the the Atmelantiquated but pretty
traditional view isorganizations were like, Why am
I going to do this for myemployees, right? Like it is,
I'm not a charity, butrecognizing that if we just take
one step back a little bit moremacro approach and recognizing
we're retaining theserelationships they have, we're
(26:22):
retaining the organizationalknowledge. Right, and we're able
to use you're saying upskillthem at the same point, then
then, as you know, that iswhat's in it for you
organization. So, yeah, really,really phenomenal how it's so
mutually beneficial there. SoNick, I have two final questions
(26:43):
for you. They're related. Andthis is a way we always and the
communicative leader, because Ithink that there are so many
folks who want to make theirwork life what they want it to
be. And with leadership adviceand communication, these are
things we don't need to spendyears necessarily working on, we
can make small changes that willlead to big differences. And
(27:06):
it's clear, you're immersed inthis field, you know,
leadership, you're incommunications, this framing,
these talking points probablyfall to you and your team. So
I'm wondering, you know,considering all of your, your
wealth of experience, what aresome recommendations you have
for our title leaders out thereand managers, directors, maybe
at the C suite? What what do youwant to leave them with?
Nick Greif (27:30):
Yeah, there's, there's kind of a give you the
big three, sort of leadershipand management mantras that I
try to live by. One is, youknow, create psychological
safety. The other is make itclear what the commander's
intent is. And the third isfoster autonomy and ownership
and your people sort of breakeach of those down.
(27:51):
psychological safety, hopefully,your listeners have heard about,
but if they haven't, it's reallyjust about making sure that
people feel comfortable in yourorganization, sharing their
ideas, pointing out problems,and having respectful
disagreements, we all know andhave worked for or seen leaders
that are sort of command andcontrol, you know, do it do it
(28:14):
how I say, individuals, or tryto shift blame to others, you
know, to shifted away fromthemselves, that is incredibly
short sighted, and leads to anorganization that is brittle,
and is unlikely to succeed. Andthe reason for that is, I think,
quite obvious, which is that ifpeople won't speak up, you're
never gonna get their bestideas, you're not tapping into
(28:34):
and maximizing their potential,you're actually minimizing their
potential because all they'regoing to do is paint within the
lines you give them. But yourlines and what you think the
right lines are, are alwaystrue. And they're often limited
by your own personalexperiences. Each of us is just
a vessel for what we've gottenso far in our X number of years
on this earth. And the idea thatyou wouldn't want to maximize
that by adding the years ofexperience of all the people on
(28:56):
your team by making itpsychologically safe for them to
share and speak up. Is is ashame online, so empower people
to feel psychologically safe.
And the way to do that, ofcourse, is, you know, not to
shame people not to, you know,ship when your team like as a
leader, it's your job to fall onthe grenade, and it's your job
to provide praise, and pass onthe great work that your team
(29:18):
does. At the end of the day,even if you want to be totally
selfless about it, that's gonnaget you promoted far faster, you
know, this one, this one wasthis is a slight digression.
But, you know, my philosophy hasalways been like, I want to make
myself replaceable, and alsoknow who my replacement is
because the only way you'removing up the career ladder is
if you've got somebody ready totake your shoes, because if
(29:39):
you've made yourselfindispensable in your role, and
you've pushed down or worse,denigrated those people in the
eyes of upper management, thenthey're not going to feel
comfortable moving you from thatspot. You want the view. So
that's, that's one psychologicalsafety commander's intent and
other one, you know, it's aoriginally military concept, but
it's absolutely migrated over inthe privates. vector as it
(29:59):
should. And that's the idea thatyour people should understand
not just what you want them todo, but why you want them to do.
And that's because at the end ofthe day, you know, in a battle,
right on the military side, aplan is only as good as the
first shot that's fired. Andthis is true in the corporate
and the corporate world, too. Soif people understand what the
goal is, then when they actuallygo out in the world to do it,
(30:22):
they don't have to come back toyou every time, there's a slight
change, to say, hey, what do Ineed to do it this way, or what
do I do next, which, of course,as a manager would suck up all
your time, and micro managershave this problem. You want
people to know, okay, I knowwhere the goal is. And I can
make my own decisions on how toget there, while checking back
occasionally to make sure thatthey're not, you know, off the
reservation. And the third isrelated to that, which is
(30:43):
autonomy, and ownership, peopleon your team are going to hit,
you know, whatever theirequivalent of 100 110% is, if
you've given them some amount ofautonomy and ownership, pride in
their work to make sure thatthey know Hey, you you own this
project, I the buck may stopwith me. But at the end of the
day like this is this is yourarea. And when you do well, and
(31:05):
when this area does, well, I'mgoing to make sure people know
that it was about you. So forme, personally, I make this
clear. And I manage two teamsand instruct one around revenue
operations, which includes youknow, responding to requests for
proposal and, and others rampcommunications. And so, you
know, with my team members onboth sides, I make it very clear
to them that, you know, I've gotlimited attention span, I get
(31:26):
pulled in a lot of things like Ineed them to really own their
areas of operation. And it'syour job to make sure that that
RFP is going to be reallystrong, and I'm going to come
back, I'm going to review it,and I'm going to be your
support, and I'm here to bounceideas off. But you're you're the
one who has to figure out how tomake this happen. Same on the
communication side. And thatallows those individuals to rise
to their best level. And it alsofrees you up as a manager to do
(31:50):
the things that frankly, you'reyou know, being paid to do,
which is to think strategicallytake time to work cross
functionally, not just to managethe things that are you know,
that your team has been set upto do to long long answer your
question, but hopefully,hopefully helpful.
Dr. Leah OH (32:06):
No, I really, really thoughtful response. I
love to I mean, these all tiedtogether so nicely, right? I
think if we're thinking aboutthis, giving authority and
ownership, I think so manyemployees really just want to be
seen and valued for what theywere hired to do. And when
(32:26):
you're giving them thatopportunity, then that should be
tied into that psychologicalsafety as well. And recognizing
that I have a place here, I amvalued here. Right? All right,
people are going to look to mefor these things. And to with
the with the intent, it's onething to know what we're doing
(32:47):
now. But having that deeperlevel understanding, like you
said, when something changeswhen we need to shift a little
when someone needs a decisionand a meeting and you aren't
physically there, then employeesable with some, you know,
relative degree of competence tobe able to to make that
decision. Yeah.
Nick Greif (33:08):
And the thing I'd say is, it all ties back to
learning as well, right? If youhave a good employee, you don't
want them to leave. And the waythat they're not going to leave
is if they continue to learn andgrow. And so that autonomy and
ownership allows them to stretchtheir wings and allows them to
learn new things. You know,you're you're there to help
guide them and make sure theydon't, you know, they don't fly
too close to the sun. Right. Butyou know, at the end of the day,
(33:29):
that's how they learn. And theirlearning is going to benefit
you. But also keep theminterested and keep them around
and not have them say okay, I'mstunted here, and I'm gonna
leave. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (33:40):
Yeah. So all things that I mean, that's going to be
helpful these tips helpful nomatter what. And so I'm
wondering now my follow up tothat is now we're thinking about
employees all ranks allindustries. So maybe we don't
have that formal title. Andmaybe we don't want that formal
title. But regardless, what whatadvice do you want to leave
(34:01):
those friends with? Yeah,
Nick Greif (34:04):
it's easily my easily my favorite question. And
simply simply stay curious. Makesure you're always learning. And
the one that I think prompts themost introspection when I say is
don't get too comfortable. Andwhat I mean by that is, you
know, there are a lot of peopleI see that gets stagnant in
their career because they getinto a role that they're good
(34:26):
at, and they do a good job. Andthey get comfortable. Once they
understand all the facets of thejob, they know how to execute
it, day in day out, they can doyou know, they can do a passable
job, people to get praise, theyget, you know, that 3% annual
raise. But if you're toocomfortable and you aren't
stretching into new roles,you're not stretching into new
projects, occasionally changingcompanies, you know, if you're
(34:48):
not finding ways to do newthings, you're not learning
anymore. If you're not learninganymore. You're not going to
advance in your career becausethe folks that did Side
promotions that do that seevalue, they see the people that
go above and beyond. And thatdon't mean that in terms of
amount of hours worked, right?
This isn't about work 100 hoursa week that actually is often
(35:09):
not correlated, if notnegatively, to promotion. It's
about the people that lookaround and ask curious questions
and say, why does this work thatway? And should it? And the
thing that often happens is yousee people that ask that
question, they take step one,they don't take step two, which
is to go learn the answer. Andthen they don't take step three,
which is to say, hey, I havesome ideas about how we could
(35:31):
how we could change that, evenif it's not in your lane, might
be someone else's land. Andthat's okay, as long as you do
go through the right channels,you've worked with that person.
And then you guys together cango up to management, say, hey,
we had this idea, we think thiscould work. And, you know, two
times out of three, managementmay say, we already thought
about it, we don't want to doit. But one time out to three,
it's going to be important, it'sgoing to make a difference. And
(35:52):
you got to learn all three ofthose. And the one of the three
that actually makes realdifference highlights your value
to management in a way thatmakes you much more likely to
move upwards in your career.
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (36:04):
it's so thoughtful, too. And there's this whole line
of literature out there thatwhen we're engaged, when we're
curious, that spills over intohome life, right, so whether it
is the version of us that comeshome to dinner, and that is his
energy to hang out with thefamily or the kids or to, you
(36:25):
know, engage in recognizedsports, or are the one who's
not, you know, stagnant at work,and kind of brings that a home
because things just aren't quiteas exciting as they once were.
So their curiosity is a greatway to keep kind of plugged in
there, Nick, thank you, oh, I'msorry, go ahead.
Nick Greif (36:46):
say one last thing, you know, I find that it's, it's
a manager's job, it's yourmanager's job to find
interesting things for you todo. And maybe that's only 20% of
your of your job. But the thingthat I've always told my bosses
is, if I get bored, I will tellyou, if I'm still bored, six
months after I tell you, I won'tbe here anymore. And I think
(37:06):
that's a mantra that anyemployee should feel comfortable
having a conversation with theirboss, and that's going to
highlight to them. One that theyhave to keep them interested by
giving them giving themassignments, it's not something
else that was saying, hey,entertaining with toys, it's
like, yeah, hey, understand, youknow, which today's means you're
taking on a little bit morework. But it also highlights to
your to your direct report toyour manager, that I'm hungry, I
(37:30):
want to do I want to grow, thatis helpful, because that will
keep them focused on you andyour development. Yeah, I
Dr. Leah OH (37:36):
really love that.
And that's something I'm gonnathink about when I'm coaching my
students who are neargraduation. Because I think that
as an employee coming in saying,I'm gonna let you know, and then
I'm gonna give it six months.
But I think that demonstrates somuch to the manager about what a
price employee they have therewho is communicative and, you
(38:01):
know, wants to be engaged, andreally clear about what
boundaries might be becauseit's, it's not going to be the
right environment for them.
Yeah, well, thank you, Nick.
This was really a funconversation. I love this
intersection of leading andeducation. I've learned so much
(38:21):
and thank you to the work thatyou do with your team, with your
organization and withincommunities.
Nick Greif (38:27):
It's my it's my absolute pleasure. Really
appreciate you having me on hereto talk about my leadership
journey and the work that we'redoing here at Instagram.
Dr. Leah OH (38:36):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. Lookingforward to chatting with you
again soon on the communicativeleader.
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