January 15, 2024 • 45 mins
Pia Wendelbo is the CEO of Scandinavian Change Agents.
She is dynamic and a wealth of expertise. Pia helps coach individuals and organizations on something that is really really hard for many of us – change.
Through her person-centered approach, Pia leaves us with really thoughtful actions we can enact right now.
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Pia Wendelbo is the CEO of Scandinavian change
agents. She is dynamic and awealth of expertise. Pia helps
coach individuals andorganizations on something that
is really really hard for somany of us change. Pia takes a
person centered focus andintegrates research from
neuroscience and behavioralscience to offer data driven
(00:23):
solutions. Today, Pia chats withus about the intersection of
leadership innovation andawareness.
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges, myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert.
(00:46):
And the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
So, Pia, I'm so excited to haveyou on the communicative leader
at you and your company, youhave done so much. But before we
dive in, can you give me alittle bit of background on on
yourself?
Pia Wendelbo (01:06):
Yes, for sure I can do so thank you so much for
having me on there. I'm reallylooking forward to our chat
here. And so yes, right now I'mChange Catalyst, and a
consultant in my own company.
But before I was that, I haveactually been working in the
corporate world for quite manyyears. So it's not unfamiliar
for me to talk about change, Iwill say, Yeah, excellent.
Dr. Leah OH (01:33):
And one thing so I was preparing for this interview
and looking at what you're whatyou're doing now. And right now
you founded this consultingfirm, you specialize in helping
businesses navigate this everevolving technology landscape,
and to achieve digitaltransformation. So in thinking
(01:53):
about this, can you kind ofdefine digital transformation
for us? And then help usunderstand? How do we know we've
done it? Or how do we knowwe're, you know, we're moving in
the right direction?
Pia Wendelbo (02:03):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. So you're fully right,digital transformation is a it's
a huge word, right. But to me,digital transformation has a lot
to do with with, of course, theas the word is saying, change,
but what has changed then, sochanges, of course, are often
seen as something to do withtechnology, right. And that is,
of course, part of a digitaltransformation. But for me, and
(02:25):
what I focus a lot about isactually the human side of this
transformation. So I think it'sjust as important to look at
what's happens in anorganization with the people
inside the organization and theleaders of this organization,
when you're trying to changesomething. Because from my
perspective, when you're tryingto implement a new piece of
software, or a new process, orwhatever it is, you also have to
(02:47):
look at how does this thenimpact the whole organization,
the people in it?
Dr. Leah OH (02:56):
I really, that speaks to me as an
organizational scholar, becauseI think, as of late, many
organizations still price ortechnology over their people.
And I understand this as a hugefinancial commitment. But at the
same time, what is thatcommunicating to your to your
workforce? So I love that youput people first.
Pia Wendelbo (03:17):
Exactly, exactly.
And I think also for havingsuccess with with your
transformation. You You stillneed people, right? So it's
awesome to have new technology,but you still need people. So to
act, and if they don't know howto then implement the new stuff,
then you won't have success withyour digital transformation
transformation, as I see. So Sofor me, it is the sort of the
(03:39):
people are in the center of thistransformation. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (03:46):
And so my next question, so of course, you've
already talked about being achange catalysts. And when we're
embarking on thesetransformations, we know that
part and parcel with change. SoI imagine you encounter a number
of clients, and then you have tohelp them work through limiting
beliefs or old behavior patternsthat are kind of holding them
(04:06):
back. Can you kind of talk to usabout how you do that?
Pia Wendelbo (04:10):
Yes, and of course, like recognizing also
that to even get to the point totalk about these limiting
beliefs, you need to build trustfirst, right? Because this is
quite personal also for peopleto get to a point where they
actually willing or to kind oftalk to something about this. So
So usually, I always start byfiguring out where people
(04:33):
actually are when I indicatewith with a new company a new
consulting situation so so whatI know this was this was not
really good. And sorry for forbeing here because I thought
that we actually skipped thequestion before, so I didn't
actually answer on how weachieve this. Oh, yeah, sorry. I
(04:53):
was kept going in my mind. SoI'm really sorry. So it kind of
yeah, my mind thinking I'mreally sorry.
Dr. Leah OH (05:02):
Oh, good. So do you want to? Do you want to speak to
that first? So, I mean, do weever really arrive at digital
transformation? Or is just justalways ongoing? Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (05:14):
you're, you're on the right area, Leah, because I
see it exactly the same way.
Because of course, small stepsforward is, is a success. But
how can you how can you exactlymeasure how, how have you
arrived, you know, on a digitaltransformation, and to me, you
can't as such, you can never saythat you're done, right? Because
you aren't, it's got to besomething that will keep
(05:35):
evolving. So for me, it's moreabout looking at how you can
constantly be in a mode whereyou are actually capable of
changing so. So it's aboutactually implementing both
innovation and transformation aspart of the the way that you
work as an organization. So it'sa lot about how you actually are
capable of adapting over andover again. But then in terms of
(05:58):
how you measure it, there'sdefinitely ways that you can
measure. And I would suggest todo that, always. So, for
instance, when I kick somethingoff, I always start with a point
of departure. Where at some ofthe stuff that we talked about
there is how do we see ourselvessucceed? And also, how would it
(06:20):
look like if we failed, becausethose two questions kind of give
quite broad perspectives onwhere we're going. And then from
that on, then we can starttalking more specifically about
what kind of goals are we thenlooking for, and then we can
start is sort of creating somesub achievements that we can
then run for. So it's veryimportant, of course, to have
(06:42):
these discussions. And it'simportant to measure. But being
finished, I would say I wouldsay never.
Dr. Leah OH (06:52):
Yeah. And I love that point of departure and kind
of doing that initial roleplaying almost that forecasting
to say, this is ideally where wewant to go, this is a success.
And this would be a failure, andyou kind of have these bumpers,
than to kind of help guide andcheck in throughout that. That
process. Exactly.
Pia Wendelbo (07:14):
And also, when you ask a question to a team, you
will also get very diverseperspectives on this particular
topic. And that means that youalso get the chance to actually
align between each personbecause if you're not aligned in
the team who's running aroundthis, then you're not succeeding
either. So it's very important,actually, also to have that
alignment, both with theinternal and the external
(07:36):
experts. Yeah. Right. Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (07:40):
And when you're talking about this as being
ongoing, and kind of thinkingback to that, limiting beliefs
or behavior patterns, is that ahard sell? Sometimes I imagined
for some people I know incorporate it's check, and then
moving on to the next. So ifthis is something that we have
to, I mean, I'm sure there aresmall checkmarks along the way,
(08:01):
but essentially saying we wejust need to be adaptable, we
need to be open, I bet you haveto do some work there with
people. Definitely.
Pia Wendelbo (08:12):
So I actually in the beginning of a corporation,
I always spend some time onactually interviewing people. So
I usually have quite opendialogue to begin with, just to
figure out whether we areactually in the same place and
what they are actuallyexpecting. So So being very open
about what do you actuallyexpect to get out of this
because I want to be very openabout where we're going. And
(08:34):
also to see if they're actuallywilling to do what it takes
because of working withtransformation also means that
you as a one initiating needs tobe quite openly around what you
are expecting, and where you areretrieving things and also
changing yourself, because youmight figure it out along the
way that things needs to be verydifferent from what you sort of
(08:56):
expected in the beginning. Soyou yourself also needs to kind
of be willing to go on a on akind of a change journey as
well. And then on top of that, Ialways discuss partnership,
because to me, this is not justas you were saying before, some
kind of supplier that comes inand just deliver something to
me, this is a true partnership.
So we actually need to work onthat trust. And when you kind of
(09:17):
have that, then it's way easieralso to then start talking about
this limiting beliefs, right. Soit's about discussing how that
happens. And I think like thelimiting belief in itself, it's
something that happens to all ofus, I think, at some point, we
all feel that feeling. So it'salso about making it general
(09:38):
making it something that you arenot alone, right. So so
basically going into theneuroscience part of it, and you
want the sense of belonging andwhen you know that this is not
weird, or not something thatanybody else feels then it's
safer to say it out loud. Soit's about giving those examples
and actually to Walking aroundit in such a way that people
(10:00):
feel comfortable in actuallyputting those things on the
table. So it's a lot about theempathy and how you approach it,
I would say, Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (10:10):
And I'm listening to you, and I'm just thinking, I
want you to come to myorganization, any organization,
I work in just that, the factthat you have these
conversations, and they're notdone, it's this ongoing and
recognizing, you know, no onelikes to feel isolated. No one
No really thrives when they'resiloed. And this helps, you
(10:32):
know, in addition to the digitaltransformation, just the, the
human communication aspect ofyour work is really phenomenal.
So thank you for that. Yeah. Youjust kind of touched on that
neuroscience. And my nextquestion. I really love this,
that you're integratingneuroscience and behavioral
(10:53):
factors. So can you discuss withus any specific techniques or
strategies you use with yourcoaching or mentoring that are
grounded in neuroscience orbehavioral research? Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (11:05):
for sure. That's quite many different models. Of
course, it depends a lot on thespecific situation, what I
choose to bring in. But onesimple model that I usually use,
at some point, at least is whatI call the Bf, a model behavior
friction solution. And thatmeans that when we're kicking
off this transformation, thenquite many leaders, they don't
(11:30):
really realize, you know, whatis it actually that we are off
that we just want some some newsprocess to work very nicely,
right, on your system to worknicely. But then we end up
looking behind the wheels ofeverything. So what I'm trying
to put on the table here wouldactually be, what kind of
behaviors? are we actuallylooking for here? To really dig
down and then see, okay, whatdid we do before? What would
(11:52):
what do we want people to do nowfor for for the future? So being
quite specific, I would say,actually, but what happens when
you are actually really diggingdeeper and trying to understand
these behavioral things, then itmakes it more obvious for you to
then go to the next point,looking for frictions, because
that's very important, right?
You need to understand exactlywhat kind of frictions could
(12:13):
there actually be forimplementing this particular
thing. It can be a customerjourney, it can be something
internal in their in theorganization, because that's
another thing, I also see thatof course, it's very popular to
look at the customer journeys,which are super important, of
course, right. But what I oftensee lacking is then when you are
then really focusing on creatingthe best possible customer
(12:35):
journey, then you kind of tendto forget what's going on behind
the wheels, right? So theemployee journeys are just as
important in this as well. Andfor managers, and sea levels as
well, they need to understandthat just putting a new system
or a new function or newculture, whatever it is that
you're trying to transform here,it will have a huge impact on
each person in the organization.
(12:59):
So understanding those smokefrictions is very important. So
really going down andunderstanding, asking, being
curious, investigating, sittingin the same chair, as those
people understanding the processis quite important. And then
when we have the frictions, thenyou can start figuring out
concrete solutions for eachfriction. So even though it
(13:20):
might seem Whoa, this is, thisis this takes some time. Yes, it
does. But it's slow is fast. Inthis case, I would say, because
that's actually where you findyour success. If you really
understand those frictions. Andthen you are able to find
solutions for each one of them,then you have a far better
chance of having a long termsustainable change.
Dr. Leah OH (13:42):
Yes. And I love that approach slowest fast in
this case, because you're right,when you're doing it right,
there are more steps. But whenwe're thinking about the system
as a whole and thinking aboutall of the pieces in the system,
I think you are finding you'remore likely to have success.
Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (14:00):
exactly. Yeah. And forcing yourself to go into
those details. Like really,okay, what is it actually, we
want to get out of this, youknow, many times it's, it can be
quite fluffy and very strategicor superficial here, beginning,
right. But really forcingyourself to go back and go back
and go back until you findsomething that is concrete
enough that you can stopmeasuring on it. It helps you a
(14:22):
lot in this process. Yep.
Dr. Leah OH (14:25):
Excellent. And I love that connection with the
measurement plus also beingthere the field and just really
capturing in a holistic way.
What's going on, follow upquestion to that. And I think
this will be a fun one for youwith thinking about some of the
significant changes or successstories that result of
incorporating this neuroscienceand behavioral factors into your
(14:47):
coaching and consulting.
Pia Wendelbo (14:51):
Yeah, so one thing is definitely better decision
making because the more you gointo the distance and you start
understanding what how do youactually take decisions how to
human people actually takedecisions. And here we are back
to some another theory actuallyof behavioral design called the
dual process theory, I'm notsure if you know that one. But
it's system one and two, forinstance. So so being able to
(15:14):
navigate around that also helpsyou understand how people take
decisions. And that is quiteimportant also, in terms of
getting everybody to onboard toa change. So better decision
making is definitely one thingyou get our, I would also say
better empowerment and clearsights, in terms of your next
moves, because understanding andalso starting to teach each
(15:37):
person in the organizationaround how you navigate in this
change, a gives gives everybodymore empowerment. So a lot of
this also, instead of you may betrying to push something is sort
of on top of your organization.
This is also a lot about as westarted talking about listening
in understanding, investigating,you know, looking at the
(15:57):
different processes and stuffthat people are doing. And by
sitting there listening andwatching, then you also interact
with each person in theorganization and then feel
listened to right. And they feelthat they are obligated and
allowed to come with ideas andhow this can improve, because
those are the specialists, theyare the specialist that sits
with the day to day tasks. So soa lot of beautiful things
(16:18):
happens actually, when you startreally engaging with the persons
in the organization. So thiswhole empowerment and the
feeling of you being part ofthis change, really completely
change the way that the wholeorganization actually sort of
empower themselves into thisworking. Yeah, a couple of
Dr. Leah OH (16:40):
examples. And I was thinking when you were talking
what a gift to give employees.
Right empowerment. And with thatbetter decision making. So I
think that so often, especiallywhen we become adults, you you
don't get a lot of those gifts,you're out of the classroom or
out of these kind of moretraditional systems that kind of
(17:01):
applaud you and check in and,and there's some things that
people do for retooling, butjust as a whole, if I felt my
voice mattered, people want tolisten, I'm empowered and safe
to speak up. And I feel like Ican trust my decision making
processes in a more solid way. Imean, wow, that's really
(17:25):
incredible for the employeeexperience. Exactly.
Pia Wendelbo (17:31):
So that's another thing here, so so definitely
also see happier employees,because they exactly are way
more engaged, and they have ahigher sense of belonging. And
going back again, actually, tothe neuroscience, we all want to
be belonging, right, we want tohave that sense of belonging. So
that's quite important actually,is so Yep, definitely a very
(17:53):
positive upside as well for thisone. And then high performance
teams as well, because you kindof also create the trust, right.
And in this process, when you'rereally digging deeper, and
you're also talking about thesefrictions. And even in the
beginning, as we were talkingabout, like, how does failure
look like? How does success looklike? You already are showing
the team that you know, it'sokay to talk about things that
(18:15):
could go wrong as well, right.
And if you want to build highperformance teams, the trust
there in the team needs to bethere to tell exactly what's
going on. So if you don'tbelieve in the timeline, if you
don't believe that thisparticular thing we are trying
to develop right now works, youshould be able to say it out
loud, right? Because if you doso then you will avoid a huge
disaster, you can take them, youknow, in the run, which is much
(18:38):
faster, cheaper and better interms of change. Right? Exactly,
Dr. Leah OH (18:45):
exactly. Gosh, I just I'm struck by how so often,
the simplest things are the mostimpactful. But we tend to make
everything so complicated, orlike, oh, no, I'm gonna blow
past that red flag or thatinternal, like you said, like if
I'm in charge of a process, andI think there's no way this
timeline is going to work. Butif I don't say that, we get to a
(19:08):
point where maybe it works, butI am definitely worse for where,
because of it. Or more likely itdoesn't work. And then we're
back at ground. Ground oneagain. Exactly,
Pia Wendelbo (19:21):
exactly. But that's a lot to do with what I
do, because it's not necessarilylike, difficult as such. But But
yeah, it's the simple things,but it's just how we work right,
huh?
Dr. Leah OH (19:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. So another thing when
I was preparing I was I wasthinking about how you work with
clients that maybe struggle withself awareness, or maybe they've
had challenges and working wellwith others. So from you know,
with your mentor, coach, youryour mentor hat, your coaching
(19:54):
hat, how do you approach thoseinteractions?
Pia Wendelbo (19:59):
Yes. also a very good question. And I do a lot of
different things. I will say, ofcourse, this is also very much
to do with the particular personis standing there. But again, I
try to, to talk to people aroundhow we actually work at first
and so so is it actuallyconfronting that person, if
there's a limiting belief, orsome some particular thinking
(20:21):
that they are stuck with, youknow, trying to figure out what
is actually behind that. Sowhere does that actually comes
from? You know, why do weactually sit with that limiting
belief? And can you actuallyprove it? Because often what I
see when you start askingquestions around that, it's more
in our minds, that it'ssomething that we can actually
prove, we're just thinking thatpeople perceive us in a certain
(20:42):
way, or this, there's thisparticular thing blocking us. So
most of the time, it's just inour mind. So it's about
understanding that it's you whocan control your feelings, you
know, in the end of it, eventhough you don't feel like in
the situation. So so it's, it's,it's about learning those
triggers, you know, when thisparticular flag pops up and say,
(21:04):
Hey, you shouldn't do that, thator you're not good enough, or
whatever it is that this voiceis telling you, then, you know,
hey, there's a flag. And thenyou should you allow yourself to
say, okay, maybe let's pause fora second here and say, who's
actually in charge hates mewho's in charge of my feelings?
So what where is this actuallycoming from? And another very
(21:25):
effectful thing you can actuallydo when these things pop up is,
is something quite funny, that Iusually also introduce is, it's
this worrying boutique? So it'sa fatigue of worries, and how
our mind works, right? We pop upwith lots of questions and
doubts and stuff going aroundand round around in our head,
right? But if we can kind ofallow them still to be there,
(21:47):
but not deal with them right nowin the situation, because you
actually need your mind to focuson something else. Right now.
Right? That is more eventful. Soyou can start to say to
yourself, Okay, it's fine thatyou are feeling this right now.
But the boutique of worries arenot open before six o'clock
tonight, for instance. And itmight sound a bit funny, but
(22:10):
actually, what your mind will dothen is that it accepts that,
okay, we're not going to dealwith this particular feeling
right? Now we can actually skip.
And then for a week or two, youopen your boutique at some
particular point A during theday, and then what happens
beautifully, is that over a veryshort period of time, you stop
having those worries, becausewhen you then stop and really
look at them, they're like, Whydo I actually feel like that?
(22:34):
Okay, maybe it's not that bad,you know? So so they become
smaller and smaller and smaller.
And then in the end, you can youcan really manage it doesn't
make sense. It does.
Dr. Leah OH (22:46):
I'm just thinking about how, and I imagine part of
why they become more minimal tois they just need to be
acknowledged and validated.
Like, yes, I hear youinadequacy, I hear you fear. But
my boutique isn't open untilSunday at six. So check in then.
And then it's like, oh, okay,I've already acknowledged that.
(23:07):
And then the time i Yeah, yeah,I really, really liked that
idea. That's in your right, andit frees you up and, you know,
the meeting or the presentationor whatever decision making is
going on. And
Pia Wendelbo (23:24):
the beautiful part of this is that you're not
you're not not acknowledgingyour feeling, right, because
that's not good. If you don't,then he so rightly. So. The
beauty here is that you willacknowledge but not dealing with
it right now.Yeah. Yeah, that'sthe trick. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (23:40):
Excellent. I am 100% going to use that. So my
follow up question is prettysimilar. So with this work that
you're doing, I imagine a lot ofpeople are connecting with you
about career goals, aspirationalfuture places, but how do you
kind of help them identify thesefuture places where maybe
(24:01):
they're unsure of where theywant to go? It's not clear to
them? Yeah.
Pia Wendelbo (24:06):
Yeah, exactly. So usually, what I do in those
cases is that I start to talkingto people about what do they
actually see as stuff theyreally love doing? Because
that's quite an easy place tostart. So we usually start
ticking into that and thentrying to identify what kind of
tasks what kind of particularjobs do you actually really love
(24:26):
doing? Like when you really feelyou're in flow. And then I
usually ask them maybe for overa week or two to kind of monitor
ties, everything they do andthen say, Okay, this is
something where I really feelI'm in flow. And when I'm
talking about flow, I mean,you're completely lost in the
job, right? You don't exist intime and space. It's just really
(24:46):
good fun to do this and you feelthat you can just, you know,
keep on floating that that'swhen we fill in flow. And what I
often see around this, which isquite interesting is that a lot
of people, they're very good ata lot of stuff right? And
They're maybe partners, theirbosses or their colleagues or
whoever in the company, theyforced them to do stuff, because
(25:08):
they are good at this, Oh,you're so good with this itself,
please take this task, right.
But that doesn't necessarilymean that you love doing it.
Right. And that's a hugedifference here. So what I'm
after in this particularexercise is what do you really
like to do what gives you flowmotivation. So that's where we
start. And then we also talkabout the strength that you
(25:30):
have, there's actually some somesome exercises, I can give you
links to this afterwards. So youcan share that in the podcast.
But there's a quite a cool tool,American tool, actually, where
you can actually have a view ofwhat are your top strengths. And
then the beauty of this is thatyou connect your strengths with
(25:51):
what you are then really lovingdoing, because that's what you
should have more of. And thenwhen you're starting to get a
picture of that, then it's goingto be so much easier for you
then to connect that to whatkind of tasks and jobs careers
are you then looking for. Andthen I mix it with with kind of
your visions, and also what youwere taught what what you really
(26:14):
love doing in general, like whatare your activities, your sort
of hobbies, and that kind ofthing. So So you kind of have a
full map of everything. And thenit's really fun, because then
you can start playing around andthen saying, Why am I actually
stuck in this particularposition or job? It's not, it's
maybe 30% of my time that Iactually spend on stuff I really
(26:36):
love doing right? It should bethe other way around. Yes,
Dr. Leah OH (26:40):
exactly. And I love that that. Because I think for
so many people, it probablyfeels too heavy and too
abstract. But when you think ofthat as a little bit like a
puzzle that you can puttogether, we have some, you
know, strategies, you can use aStrengths Finder, just daily
(27:01):
checking in what did I reallyenjoy today. And I think that is
so powerful in helping people torecognize there are things that
I enjoy, there are things I canlean into.
Pia Wendelbo (27:13):
Oh, yeah. And another beautiful thing about
this also is that sometimes Ihave people coming in and then
say, I hate my job, I'm sodemotivated, I don't like what
I'm doing. But then when we havehad all these exercises and gone
through this, then they actuallyfigure out hey, why don't I ask
my boss? For instance? Or ifit's a year? Why don't I? Why
don't I just remake my own sortof daily routines, right?
(27:36):
Because why should I do thiswhen I can do that, and then
start interacting with people,because what you find out in a
team often is that the thingsthat you might love to do might
not be the same things that theother person's love to do. So
then in a team's thoughtsswitching, and talking about
these things, and actuallybuilding on top of each other's
strengths, then it's so powerfulin terms of teamwork as well,
(27:59):
because then everybody starts toreally do what they love to do
and are in flow, and then theproductivity and the quality of
what you're building or doingtogether. It erases
tremendously, actually. So thereare a lot of upsides in this.
And then maybe you don't evenwant to shift your job. Maybe it
was just because you were doingdifferent tasks that you didn't
love doing. You actuallygenuinely love your job. You
(28:20):
just did didn't spend time withthe right things.
Dr. Leah OH (28:24):
And what a powerful message if you can go to your
manager and say, you know, Irealized I really like a I don't
like B so much. And they sayhere, you're so wonderful. We
want to keep you let's figureout how we can get you doing
more a and accepting thoseconversations. I mean, I'm just
like, Yes, I am valued. I'mappreciated here what I do
(28:45):
matters. And that transformsthat workgroup.
Pia Wendelbo (28:50):
Exactly. Plus, you are also the proactive person,
right? So which many doesn'tlove that, you know, you're not
coming complaining in any wayyou actually coming with a
solution. So you are comingshowing, okay, I think we should
move around this, you will, youwill actually get better result
out of me if I get to do thisand this and this. And I have an
idea that maybe this can betaken and done over here or this
(29:12):
can be done here. Or maybe weshould even stop doing because
that's another interesting thinghere as well. What should we
stop doing? Because there's alsoa lot of stuff that we probably
shouldn't spend time on. Right.
But that's another that'sanother dialogue. Yeah, but
topic, but but. But yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (29:29):
Excellent. And my follow up question, which is
kind of, we've touched on this alittle bit. But one thing I'm
realizing and I think this ispost, you know, the surge of the
pandemic, in finding I'm havinga lot of conversations with
people who feel stuck or theyfeel a lack of motivation in
their current career. So arethere additional things that
(29:51):
they can do to help themrediscover that passion or drive
or kind of next steps?
Pia Wendelbo (29:58):
Yeah, I would, I would Definitely I would suggest
them to start where we justdiscussed, like, what do I
actually really love to do,because as you said, our minds
that's actually going back againto neuroscience. So when you are
trying to step out of somethingwhere you don't really know
where you're going, right, itcan be tremendously hard. And
that taking that first step issometimes really tough, right?
(30:20):
So what you have to do is thatyou have to trigger your mind
into allowing you to take thatfirst step. And the smaller, you
can make that first step, thebetter. So the smaller, you can
kind of tell yourself, okay,this is just a little thing I
need to go forward, the betterso so. So try to think of how
you can trunk whatever you arelooking for here, how can you
(30:43):
chunk it up into small, small,small pieces. So what would be
the first little tiny thing youcould do to take the first step
in the direction you want to goin, that's one thing you could
do. And other tool that I alsothink is quite interesting is
actually looking at what you'reafter so many people, they, they
tend to create their goalsaround a certain thing. Now,
(31:06):
very simple, simple example,here, I want to run a marathon,
right? Instead, I would go withtrying to force yourself into
identity goals instead. And thensaying, I don't want to run a
marathon, I want to be asibylline runner, right? Because
the other way you can kind offeel the difference here, here,
(31:26):
you're just looking towards acertain specific goal, what
happens then when you have runthat marathon? What will you
then do? Whereas if you aresupreme runner, then you you
kind of can evolve around it,right? And you can build all
your habits around that identitygoal as well. Because then you
can start asking yourself, okay,to become a supreme runner, what
what do I need to do, maybe Ineed to do a different training,
(31:47):
maybe I need to eat differently,or sleep differently, or
something else like that. So youcan kind of angle all the habits
and all the stuff you do back tothis identity goal. So is it
quite interesting, also, from afrom, from an organizational
point of view, like to lookdifferently on, on how we
actually achieve our goals. Thisis something that James clear
(32:10):
from atomic habits. I know him,he talks a lot about so I think
he has some really brillianttools in terms of working with
these identity based goalsinstead.
Dr. Leah OH (32:21):
Yes, I love that. I am familiar with the book, I've
read the book, and I forgotabout the shift to identity
rather than behavioral goals.
And when you're saying I'm like,Yes, this is this is brilliant.
And, you know, I think of thesecommitments as growing lakes. So
it's one thing like you said, ifit's just a marathon, I run and
around and around a little more,and I check off the marathon,
(32:45):
and then maybe, maybe I'm stuckbecause I achieved that one
goal. But you're right, whenyou're thinking about being a
really excellent runner, there'sa lot more that goes into that
than just this one outcome atthe end.
Pia Wendelbo (33:03):
Plus, it's also easy when you have these
different identity goals in yourlife, then you can also measure
everything up against it. So youcan kind of say, okay, the
direction I'm going in rightnow, here, that's not really
helping my identity goal, right.
So maybe I should do somethingdifferently. And what also
happens is that when you reallygo deep, and then it's something
you identify yourself with, thenit's also easier for you to hold
(33:23):
on to whatever happens and stuffyou need to do to go in that
direction. Because we know allof us knows, right, that there
will be days where you don't youfall in, you fall in. And that's
an other very important thingelse. From an observational
point of view. I see so manytimes, not any kinds of slack,
or any kind of behavioralframework in place to actually
(33:47):
help people bounce back to thegood, right. So that's another
reason why we often fail inthese transformations. Because
we don't have that framework inplace. So so but back to these
identity goals. If you'reactually working with that, then
it's going to be easier for youto bounce back because it's
something you really deeplydesire and want to do, right.
Dr. Leah OH (34:09):
Okay, so my next question is for you personally,
because I just You are soaccomplished. You do such
(34:29):
incredible work. And I'm justwondering, so What tips do you
have to You're staying currenton all of these industry trends,
these skills, whether it'stechnology or like you're
reading these latest books thatcome out, so What tips do you
have for for clients for usabout how to keep up with
(34:50):
everything?
Pia Wendelbo (34:53):
I listened to podcast Yeah, but I'm telling
him that I Of course, also booksand newsletters and that useful
stuff, networking events. Andthen a very important thing for
me, actually, I surround myselfwith people who also innovative
and eager to learn. So I thinkthe ecosystem here is very
(35:16):
important actually. And then Ialso pick out education. So I
continuously also take time outto educate myself continuously.
So basically, what I do is thatI have a system. So I work in
flow myself, I have to take myown medicine, right. So I work
in flow. So I'm very, veryconscious about what kind of
(35:37):
tasks I do throughout my day. SoI have specific time schedules
during the day where I do deepwork. And I know don't allow
meetings in that period, becauseI want to do deep work. And
then, as part of my system, aswell, I also have weekly, time
set off for for education. Andthat can be reading certain
articles that can be doing someschool stuff, or whatever it is.
(36:00):
But I think with the stuff thatis going on right now, with so
much change coming in, I thinkit's so so important that we
actually take time off toconstantly learn, because we
need to adapt quickly, all thetime. And I think, for me, at
least, one of the very importantmeta skills of the future is
(36:21):
quickly adapting and beingcapable of engaging and
interacting with new knowledgeall the time and applying it
into something concrete. Soreally taking time off is
important. And as we were justdiscussing, you know, our brains
need the slack also to learn, wecan't expect to take something
in just and then move on witheverything else going on the
(36:43):
sciences. So so we need to havecertain slack to actually take
it in, and then you need to workwith it. Right. So So that's
very important. And don't taketoo much in that at once. So I
also sometimes have, you know, abucket list of a lot of stuff I
want to do or learn or listeningto, but then I tried to
prioritize and then saying,Okay, today, on this my learning
(37:06):
Friday, I'm going to concentrateon this particular topic. And
then that's what I'm crunchingon.
Dr. Leah OH (37:12):
Yeah, and I've never thought of it as an
ecosystem. And that is, I'mreally visual. I imagine many of
the listeners are too, but kindof thinking about how all these
webs are tied together andimpacting one another. From
having a learning Friday toblacking time on our calendar
(37:32):
for work. And like you said,surrounding yourself with others
who just always want to becurious, always want to be
learning. Exactly. And
Pia Wendelbo (37:41):
it is actually yeah, people. It's really funny,
because, as you know, I'veworked many years with the
innovation and the creativityand product development and
everything. That's where I comefrom, right. And people are kind
of afraid, Oh, you're socreative. So you have no
systems, you have nothing right.
But it's exactly the opposite.
We have a lot of systems,because that's what frees our
minds to be creative andinnovative. So it's the
(38:03):
opposite. So yes, I have asystem and I have sit down and I
have my calendar. And I block mythings in so and then I've just
have a promise to myself thatthis is my square, you know,
where I'm deep working. So nomeetings there. And if it stands
there in front of you, it'seasier for you to say no, to
(38:23):
person, right? And then if it'snot in your calendar, because if
it's not in your calendar, thenit doesn't exist. And especially
in a big organization, right? Ifpeople actually make time in the
calendars for certain things,then it's harder to book.
Because most of the meetingsthat can wait a day or some
hours or a week even, it's notthat important. It's more to
(38:44):
talk about, you know, what ismost important right now, right?
We just need to navigate witheach other. So yeah, I'm a big
fan of learning sessions. I'm abig fan of Monday, free
meetings. Days, for instance,which we have also played a lot
around within teams, bi weeklyco sessions where we just
(39:04):
creative where you have sometime set off to actually just be
creative, innovative, thinkdeep. You know, do whatever
feels interesting for you.
Because that also recharges youbecause if you're working
especially within I would saythat the teams I mainly work
with is within eitherdevelopment or innovation or
(39:24):
combination of that and it'squite brain heavy, lots of
stuff. So also freeing up yourmind and having time for
actually just flying high isquite liberal.
Dr. Leah OH (39:38):
Yeah, so I was just thinking like that would be
really energizing. And thensomething I'm going to to be
thinking about as a plan for mynext semester and figuring out
that boost and that flexibilityand that creativity. Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (39:54):
and then also imagine, you know, because one
thing is that you do ityourself. But then if you can
get the whole team or theapartments to actually do it.
Imagine the power you gettogether of actually doing this
together. And then of course,what you as the manager of this
team, what is really important,what I try to then teach there
is that you give them autonomyto actually make that happen. So
you need to, of course, feel,you know, keep the pressure
(40:16):
away. So, so he's quiteinteresting. But it's, it's
actually interesting how fastthat goes. Because if you keep
saying, No, you can't book thisteam, you can't book us for
meetings on Mondays because wedo that, then most people
actually accept it. So it's justabout the way you tell the story
and how you see it play right.
Dr. Leah OH (40:36):
Yeah, yep. So powerful change makers. Exactly.
So I have two final questionsfor you. And they're related.
And so on the communicativeleader, we really like to leave
our listeners with the pragmaticleadership or communication
tips, advice and challenge. Forour titled, leaders out there
(40:57):
are managers, supervisors, allthe way up to the C suite. What
advice do you have for thosefolks?
Pia Wendelbo (41:05):
Yeah, I think one thing that I would like to have
people reflect on is actuallywhat can you let go off today to
make room for your owntransformation? In terms of what
we were just talking, right? Andalso, you know, ask the same
questions to your team. So whatcan you actually let go off
(41:25):
today to make room for for forthis transformation? And what
will be the first little stepthat you can take to start
acting on, on your dream or yourgoal?
Dr. Leah OH (41:38):
Yeah, I'm writing I'm writing notes, because I
just it's so powerful, andfreeing to think sometimes we
need someone to actually posethe question. To us, we have
someone who has given uspermission to do it. And then to
also give that grace to our teamas well. That's, that's really
(42:00):
communicating a lot.
Pia Wendelbo (42:03):
And then another interesting angle. So this could
also be sure to ask yourself, ifyou have a partner in change,
because that's another verypowerful thing here. To actually
have, as we were discussing, youknow, a lot happens when you are
more people around it. So who doyou have as a partner in change,
and that can be an internalperson, or in my case, like, I'm
(42:24):
often that person also to bethat argument, in change for
especially the managers, becausethey are often flying a bit
around, they're alone in inthese transformations. But also,
for teams, it's very powerfulwhen you set up IT teams, so you
kind of have a body in your teamthat supports you with these
change things. Because you know,as a team, you also fall back,
(42:47):
if you have a new system you'retrying to learn or relearn, or
you're trying to implement agileworking, or whatever it is, it's
a lot of new stuff you need totake in and there'll be days
where you're just bouncing back.
So having a buddy kind of helpsyou right to keep you on track
as well, because hopefully, thatperson can then draw you up. And
then when you have a bad day,and then the other way around.
Right,
Dr. Leah OH (43:07):
exactly. And with that in mind. So we talked about
our titled leaders. So whatabout all of the other employees
across industries across ranks?
One, what do you want to leavethem with?
Pia Wendelbo (43:22):
I think that generally, I think it's very
important to be curious and stayopen. So the more curious you
are, the more you can actuallystay open, the more you can
investigate and research. Thebetter. So, so slow, as fast as
we kick this conversation offwith right? I think is it's so
(43:43):
important. I think my mostimportant tool is actually my
curiosity. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (43:49):
And what I love about that, is that something
that we can start right now, wedon't need to spend a bunch of
time and trainings, we don'tneed new technology. It's not
expensive, you know, in terms ofa financial or even a time cost
just to say, Huh, I'm wonderingabout that, or what is causing
(44:10):
this feeling. And then I thinkto the empowerment of being an
investigator, being thatresearcher is letting you know,
you're not just stuck, you havesome autonomy and agency here.
Pia Wendelbo (44:25):
Exactly. And that's actually also tools in
terms of the behavior, right,because if you feel that you are
in control, then you always cando stuff. You know, you're not
in a position where you feelstuck, or you feel that you're
out of sort of lack of beingable to react, right. So so it's
about giving the control back toyourself.
Dr. Leah OH (44:49):
Yeah, well, Pia thank you for sharing your
expertise, your time. This hasbeen so insightful and so
valuable. I know I'm going tocome back to this in a Your many
times and I know it will reallyhelp listeners as well.
Pia Wendelbo (45:04):
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure to talk toyou.
Dr. Leah OH (45:09):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, you indicate with
intention and lead with purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon. I'm the
communicative leader.
Pia Wendelbo is the CEO of Scandinavian change
agents. She is dynamic and awealth of expertise. Pia helps
coach individuals andorganizations on something that
is really really hard for somany of us change. Pia takes a
person centered focus andintegrates research from
neuroscience and behavioralscience to offer data driven
(00:23):
solutions. Today, Pia chats withus about the intersection of
leadership innovation andawareness.
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges, myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert.
(00:46):
And the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
So, Pia, I'm so excited to haveyou on the communicative leader
at you and your company, youhave done so much. But before we
dive in, can you give me alittle bit of background on on
yourself?
Pia Wendelbo (01:06):
Yes, for sure I can do so thank you so much for
having me on there. I'm reallylooking forward to our chat
here. And so yes, right now I'mChange Catalyst, and a
consultant in my own company.
But before I was that, I haveactually been working in the
corporate world for quite manyyears. So it's not unfamiliar
for me to talk about change, Iwill say, Yeah, excellent.
Dr. Leah OH (01:33):
And one thing so I was preparing for this interview
and looking at what you're whatyou're doing now. And right now
you founded this consultingfirm, you specialize in helping
businesses navigate this everevolving technology landscape,
and to achieve digitaltransformation. So in thinking
(01:53):
about this, can you kind ofdefine digital transformation
for us? And then help usunderstand? How do we know we've
done it? Or how do we knowwe're, you know, we're moving in
the right direction?
Pia Wendelbo (02:03):
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. So you're fully right,digital transformation is a it's
a huge word, right. But to me,digital transformation has a lot
to do with with, of course, theas the word is saying, change,
but what has changed then, sochanges, of course, are often
seen as something to do withtechnology, right. And that is,
of course, part of a digitaltransformation. But for me, and
(02:25):
what I focus a lot about isactually the human side of this
transformation. So I think it'sjust as important to look at
what's happens in anorganization with the people
inside the organization and theleaders of this organization,
when you're trying to changesomething. Because from my
perspective, when you're tryingto implement a new piece of
software, or a new process, orwhatever it is, you also have to
(02:47):
look at how does this thenimpact the whole organization,
the people in it?
Dr. Leah OH (02:56):
I really, that speaks to me as an
organizational scholar, becauseI think, as of late, many
organizations still price ortechnology over their people.
And I understand this as a hugefinancial commitment. But at the
same time, what is thatcommunicating to your to your
workforce? So I love that youput people first.
Pia Wendelbo (03:17):
Exactly, exactly.
And I think also for havingsuccess with with your
transformation. You You stillneed people, right? So it's
awesome to have new technology,but you still need people. So to
act, and if they don't know howto then implement the new stuff,
then you won't have success withyour digital transformation
transformation, as I see. So Sofor me, it is the sort of the
(03:39):
people are in the center of thistransformation. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (03:46):
And so my next question, so of course, you've
already talked about being achange catalysts. And when we're
embarking on thesetransformations, we know that
part and parcel with change. SoI imagine you encounter a number
of clients, and then you have tohelp them work through limiting
beliefs or old behavior patternsthat are kind of holding them
(04:06):
back. Can you kind of talk to usabout how you do that?
Pia Wendelbo (04:10):
Yes, and of course, like recognizing also
that to even get to the point totalk about these limiting
beliefs, you need to build trustfirst, right? Because this is
quite personal also for peopleto get to a point where they
actually willing or to kind oftalk to something about this. So
So usually, I always start byfiguring out where people
(04:33):
actually are when I indicatewith with a new company a new
consulting situation so so whatI know this was this was not
really good. And sorry for forbeing here because I thought
that we actually skipped thequestion before, so I didn't
actually answer on how weachieve this. Oh, yeah, sorry. I
(04:53):
was kept going in my mind. SoI'm really sorry. So it kind of
yeah, my mind thinking I'mreally sorry.
Dr. Leah OH (05:02):
Oh, good. So do you want to? Do you want to speak to
that first? So, I mean, do weever really arrive at digital
transformation? Or is just justalways ongoing? Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (05:14):
you're, you're on the right area, Leah, because I
see it exactly the same way.
Because of course, small stepsforward is, is a success. But
how can you how can you exactlymeasure how, how have you
arrived, you know, on a digitaltransformation, and to me, you
can't as such, you can never saythat you're done, right? Because
you aren't, it's got to besomething that will keep
(05:35):
evolving. So for me, it's moreabout looking at how you can
constantly be in a mode whereyou are actually capable of
changing so. So it's aboutactually implementing both
innovation and transformation aspart of the the way that you
work as an organization. So it'sa lot about how you actually are
capable of adapting over andover again. But then in terms of
(05:58):
how you measure it, there'sdefinitely ways that you can
measure. And I would suggest todo that, always. So, for
instance, when I kick somethingoff, I always start with a point
of departure. Where at some ofthe stuff that we talked about
there is how do we see ourselvessucceed? And also, how would it
(06:20):
look like if we failed, becausethose two questions kind of give
quite broad perspectives onwhere we're going. And then from
that on, then we can starttalking more specifically about
what kind of goals are we thenlooking for, and then we can
start is sort of creating somesub achievements that we can
then run for. So it's veryimportant, of course, to have
(06:42):
these discussions. And it'simportant to measure. But being
finished, I would say I wouldsay never.
Dr. Leah OH (06:52):
Yeah. And I love that point of departure and kind
of doing that initial roleplaying almost that forecasting
to say, this is ideally where wewant to go, this is a success.
And this would be a failure, andyou kind of have these bumpers,
than to kind of help guide andcheck in throughout that. That
process. Exactly.
Pia Wendelbo (07:14):
And also, when you ask a question to a team, you
will also get very diverseperspectives on this particular
topic. And that means that youalso get the chance to actually
align between each personbecause if you're not aligned in
the team who's running aroundthis, then you're not succeeding
either. So it's very important,actually, also to have that
alignment, both with theinternal and the external
(07:36):
experts. Yeah. Right. Exactly.
Dr. Leah OH (07:40):
And when you're talking about this as being
ongoing, and kind of thinkingback to that, limiting beliefs
or behavior patterns, is that ahard sell? Sometimes I imagined
for some people I know incorporate it's check, and then
moving on to the next. So ifthis is something that we have
to, I mean, I'm sure there aresmall checkmarks along the way,
(08:01):
but essentially saying we wejust need to be adaptable, we
need to be open, I bet you haveto do some work there with
people. Definitely.
Pia Wendelbo (08:12):
So I actually in the beginning of a corporation,
I always spend some time onactually interviewing people. So
I usually have quite opendialogue to begin with, just to
figure out whether we areactually in the same place and
what they are actuallyexpecting. So So being very open
about what do you actuallyexpect to get out of this
because I want to be very openabout where we're going. And
(08:34):
also to see if they're actuallywilling to do what it takes
because of working withtransformation also means that
you as a one initiating needs tobe quite openly around what you
are expecting, and where you areretrieving things and also
changing yourself, because youmight figure it out along the
way that things needs to be verydifferent from what you sort of
(08:56):
expected in the beginning. Soyou yourself also needs to kind
of be willing to go on a on akind of a change journey as
well. And then on top of that, Ialways discuss partnership,
because to me, this is not justas you were saying before, some
kind of supplier that comes inand just deliver something to
me, this is a true partnership.
So we actually need to work onthat trust. And when you kind of
(09:17):
have that, then it's way easieralso to then start talking about
this limiting beliefs, right. Soit's about discussing how that
happens. And I think like thelimiting belief in itself, it's
something that happens to all ofus, I think, at some point, we
all feel that feeling. So it'salso about making it general
(09:38):
making it something that you arenot alone, right. So so
basically going into theneuroscience part of it, and you
want the sense of belonging andwhen you know that this is not
weird, or not something thatanybody else feels then it's
safer to say it out loud. Soit's about giving those examples
and actually to Walking aroundit in such a way that people
(10:00):
feel comfortable in actuallyputting those things on the
table. So it's a lot about theempathy and how you approach it,
I would say, Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (10:10):
And I'm listening to you, and I'm just thinking, I
want you to come to myorganization, any organization,
I work in just that, the factthat you have these
conversations, and they're notdone, it's this ongoing and
recognizing, you know, no onelikes to feel isolated. No one
No really thrives when they'resiloed. And this helps, you
(10:32):
know, in addition to the digitaltransformation, just the, the
human communication aspect ofyour work is really phenomenal.
So thank you for that. Yeah. Youjust kind of touched on that
neuroscience. And my nextquestion. I really love this,
that you're integratingneuroscience and behavioral
(10:53):
factors. So can you discuss withus any specific techniques or
strategies you use with yourcoaching or mentoring that are
grounded in neuroscience orbehavioral research? Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (11:05):
for sure. That's quite many different models. Of
course, it depends a lot on thespecific situation, what I
choose to bring in. But onesimple model that I usually use,
at some point, at least is whatI call the Bf, a model behavior
friction solution. And thatmeans that when we're kicking
off this transformation, thenquite many leaders, they don't
(11:30):
really realize, you know, whatis it actually that we are off
that we just want some some newsprocess to work very nicely,
right, on your system to worknicely. But then we end up
looking behind the wheels ofeverything. So what I'm trying
to put on the table here wouldactually be, what kind of
behaviors? are we actuallylooking for here? To really dig
down and then see, okay, whatdid we do before? What would
(11:52):
what do we want people to do nowfor for for the future? So being
quite specific, I would say,actually, but what happens when
you are actually really diggingdeeper and trying to understand
these behavioral things, then itmakes it more obvious for you to
then go to the next point,looking for frictions, because
that's very important, right?
You need to understand exactlywhat kind of frictions could
(12:13):
there actually be forimplementing this particular
thing. It can be a customerjourney, it can be something
internal in their in theorganization, because that's
another thing, I also see thatof course, it's very popular to
look at the customer journeys,which are super important, of
course, right. But what I oftensee lacking is then when you are
then really focusing on creatingthe best possible customer
(12:35):
journey, then you kind of tendto forget what's going on behind
the wheels, right? So theemployee journeys are just as
important in this as well. Andfor managers, and sea levels as
well, they need to understandthat just putting a new system
or a new function or newculture, whatever it is that
you're trying to transform here,it will have a huge impact on
each person in the organization.
(12:59):
So understanding those smokefrictions is very important. So
really going down andunderstanding, asking, being
curious, investigating, sittingin the same chair, as those
people understanding the processis quite important. And then
when we have the frictions, thenyou can start figuring out
concrete solutions for eachfriction. So even though it
(13:20):
might seem Whoa, this is, thisis this takes some time. Yes, it
does. But it's slow is fast. Inthis case, I would say, because
that's actually where you findyour success. If you really
understand those frictions. Andthen you are able to find
solutions for each one of them,then you have a far better
chance of having a long termsustainable change.
Dr. Leah OH (13:42):
Yes. And I love that approach slowest fast in
this case, because you're right,when you're doing it right,
there are more steps. But whenwe're thinking about the system
as a whole and thinking aboutall of the pieces in the system,
I think you are finding you'remore likely to have success.
Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (14:00):
exactly. Yeah. And forcing yourself to go into
those details. Like really,okay, what is it actually, we
want to get out of this, youknow, many times it's, it can be
quite fluffy and very strategicor superficial here, beginning,
right. But really forcingyourself to go back and go back
and go back until you findsomething that is concrete
enough that you can stopmeasuring on it. It helps you a
(14:22):
lot in this process. Yep.
Dr. Leah OH (14:25):
Excellent. And I love that connection with the
measurement plus also beingthere the field and just really
capturing in a holistic way.
What's going on, follow upquestion to that. And I think
this will be a fun one for youwith thinking about some of the
significant changes or successstories that result of
incorporating this neuroscienceand behavioral factors into your
(14:47):
coaching and consulting.
Pia Wendelbo (14:51):
Yeah, so one thing is definitely better decision
making because the more you gointo the distance and you start
understanding what how do youactually take decisions how to
human people actually takedecisions. And here we are back
to some another theory actuallyof behavioral design called the
dual process theory, I'm notsure if you know that one. But
it's system one and two, forinstance. So so being able to
(15:14):
navigate around that also helpsyou understand how people take
decisions. And that is quiteimportant also, in terms of
getting everybody to onboard toa change. So better decision
making is definitely one thingyou get our, I would also say
better empowerment and clearsights, in terms of your next
moves, because understanding andalso starting to teach each
(15:37):
person in the organizationaround how you navigate in this
change, a gives gives everybodymore empowerment. So a lot of
this also, instead of you may betrying to push something is sort
of on top of your organization.
This is also a lot about as westarted talking about listening
in understanding, investigating,you know, looking at the
(15:57):
different processes and stuffthat people are doing. And by
sitting there listening andwatching, then you also interact
with each person in theorganization and then feel
listened to right. And they feelthat they are obligated and
allowed to come with ideas andhow this can improve, because
those are the specialists, theyare the specialist that sits
with the day to day tasks. So soa lot of beautiful things
(16:18):
happens actually, when you startreally engaging with the persons
in the organization. So thiswhole empowerment and the
feeling of you being part ofthis change, really completely
change the way that the wholeorganization actually sort of
empower themselves into thisworking. Yeah, a couple of
Dr. Leah OH (16:40):
examples. And I was thinking when you were talking
what a gift to give employees.
Right empowerment. And with thatbetter decision making. So I
think that so often, especiallywhen we become adults, you you
don't get a lot of those gifts,you're out of the classroom or
out of these kind of moretraditional systems that kind of
(17:01):
applaud you and check in and,and there's some things that
people do for retooling, butjust as a whole, if I felt my
voice mattered, people want tolisten, I'm empowered and safe
to speak up. And I feel like Ican trust my decision making
processes in a more solid way. Imean, wow, that's really
(17:25):
incredible for the employeeexperience. Exactly.
Pia Wendelbo (17:31):
So that's another thing here, so so definitely
also see happier employees,because they exactly are way
more engaged, and they have ahigher sense of belonging. And
going back again, actually, tothe neuroscience, we all want to
be belonging, right, we want tohave that sense of belonging. So
that's quite important actually,is so Yep, definitely a very
(17:53):
positive upside as well for thisone. And then high performance
teams as well, because you kindof also create the trust, right.
And in this process, when you'rereally digging deeper, and
you're also talking about thesefrictions. And even in the
beginning, as we were talkingabout, like, how does failure
look like? How does success looklike? You already are showing
the team that you know, it'sokay to talk about things that
(18:15):
could go wrong as well, right.
And if you want to build highperformance teams, the trust
there in the team needs to bethere to tell exactly what's
going on. So if you don'tbelieve in the timeline, if you
don't believe that thisparticular thing we are trying
to develop right now works, youshould be able to say it out
loud, right? Because if you doso then you will avoid a huge
disaster, you can take them, youknow, in the run, which is much
(18:38):
faster, cheaper and better interms of change. Right? Exactly,
Dr. Leah OH (18:45):
exactly. Gosh, I just I'm struck by how so often,
the simplest things are the mostimpactful. But we tend to make
everything so complicated, orlike, oh, no, I'm gonna blow
past that red flag or thatinternal, like you said, like if
I'm in charge of a process, andI think there's no way this
timeline is going to work. Butif I don't say that, we get to a
(19:08):
point where maybe it works, butI am definitely worse for where,
because of it. Or more likely itdoesn't work. And then we're
back at ground. Ground oneagain. Exactly,
Pia Wendelbo (19:21):
exactly. But that's a lot to do with what I
do, because it's not necessarilylike, difficult as such. But But
yeah, it's the simple things,but it's just how we work right,
huh?
Dr. Leah OH (19:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. So another thing when
I was preparing I was I wasthinking about how you work with
clients that maybe struggle withself awareness, or maybe they've
had challenges and working wellwith others. So from you know,
with your mentor, coach, youryour mentor hat, your coaching
(19:54):
hat, how do you approach thoseinteractions?
Pia Wendelbo (19:59):
Yes. also a very good question. And I do a lot of
different things. I will say, ofcourse, this is also very much
to do with the particular personis standing there. But again, I
try to, to talk to people aroundhow we actually work at first
and so so is it actuallyconfronting that person, if
there's a limiting belief, orsome some particular thinking
(20:21):
that they are stuck with, youknow, trying to figure out what
is actually behind that. Sowhere does that actually comes
from? You know, why do weactually sit with that limiting
belief? And can you actuallyprove it? Because often what I
see when you start askingquestions around that, it's more
in our minds, that it'ssomething that we can actually
prove, we're just thinking thatpeople perceive us in a certain
(20:42):
way, or this, there's thisparticular thing blocking us. So
most of the time, it's just inour mind. So it's about
understanding that it's you whocan control your feelings, you
know, in the end of it, eventhough you don't feel like in
the situation. So so it's, it's,it's about learning those
triggers, you know, when thisparticular flag pops up and say,
(21:04):
Hey, you shouldn't do that, thator you're not good enough, or
whatever it is that this voiceis telling you, then, you know,
hey, there's a flag. And thenyou should you allow yourself to
say, okay, maybe let's pause fora second here and say, who's
actually in charge hates mewho's in charge of my feelings?
So what where is this actuallycoming from? And another very
(21:25):
effectful thing you can actuallydo when these things pop up is,
is something quite funny, that Iusually also introduce is, it's
this worrying boutique? So it'sa fatigue of worries, and how
our mind works, right? We pop upwith lots of questions and
doubts and stuff going aroundand round around in our head,
right? But if we can kind ofallow them still to be there,
(21:47):
but not deal with them right nowin the situation, because you
actually need your mind to focuson something else. Right now.
Right? That is more eventful. Soyou can start to say to
yourself, Okay, it's fine thatyou are feeling this right now.
But the boutique of worries arenot open before six o'clock
tonight, for instance. And itmight sound a bit funny, but
(22:10):
actually, what your mind will dothen is that it accepts that,
okay, we're not going to dealwith this particular feeling
right? Now we can actually skip.
And then for a week or two, youopen your boutique at some
particular point A during theday, and then what happens
beautifully, is that over a veryshort period of time, you stop
having those worries, becausewhen you then stop and really
look at them, they're like, Whydo I actually feel like that?
(22:34):
Okay, maybe it's not that bad,you know? So so they become
smaller and smaller and smaller.
And then in the end, you can youcan really manage it doesn't
make sense. It does.
Dr. Leah OH (22:46):
I'm just thinking about how, and I imagine part of
why they become more minimal tois they just need to be
acknowledged and validated.
Like, yes, I hear youinadequacy, I hear you fear. But
my boutique isn't open untilSunday at six. So check in then.
And then it's like, oh, okay,I've already acknowledged that.
(23:07):
And then the time i Yeah, yeah,I really, really liked that
idea. That's in your right, andit frees you up and, you know,
the meeting or the presentationor whatever decision making is
going on. And
Pia Wendelbo (23:24):
the beautiful part of this is that you're not
you're not not acknowledgingyour feeling, right, because
that's not good. If you don't,then he so rightly. So. The
beauty here is that you willacknowledge but not dealing with
it right now.Yeah. Yeah, that'sthe trick. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (23:40):
Excellent. I am 100% going to use that. So my
follow up question is prettysimilar. So with this work that
you're doing, I imagine a lot ofpeople are connecting with you
about career goals, aspirationalfuture places, but how do you
kind of help them identify thesefuture places where maybe
(24:01):
they're unsure of where theywant to go? It's not clear to
them? Yeah.
Pia Wendelbo (24:06):
Yeah, exactly. So usually, what I do in those
cases is that I start to talkingto people about what do they
actually see as stuff theyreally love doing? Because
that's quite an easy place tostart. So we usually start
ticking into that and thentrying to identify what kind of
tasks what kind of particularjobs do you actually really love
(24:26):
doing? Like when you really feelyou're in flow. And then I
usually ask them maybe for overa week or two to kind of monitor
ties, everything they do andthen say, Okay, this is
something where I really feelI'm in flow. And when I'm
talking about flow, I mean,you're completely lost in the
job, right? You don't exist intime and space. It's just really
(24:46):
good fun to do this and you feelthat you can just, you know,
keep on floating that that'swhen we fill in flow. And what I
often see around this, which isquite interesting is that a lot
of people, they're very good ata lot of stuff right? And
They're maybe partners, theirbosses or their colleagues or
whoever in the company, theyforced them to do stuff, because
(25:08):
they are good at this, Oh,you're so good with this itself,
please take this task, right.
But that doesn't necessarilymean that you love doing it.
Right. And that's a hugedifference here. So what I'm
after in this particularexercise is what do you really
like to do what gives you flowmotivation. So that's where we
start. And then we also talkabout the strength that you
(25:30):
have, there's actually some somesome exercises, I can give you
links to this afterwards. So youcan share that in the podcast.
But there's a quite a cool tool,American tool, actually, where
you can actually have a view ofwhat are your top strengths. And
then the beauty of this is thatyou connect your strengths with
(25:51):
what you are then really lovingdoing, because that's what you
should have more of. And thenwhen you're starting to get a
picture of that, then it's goingto be so much easier for you
then to connect that to whatkind of tasks and jobs careers
are you then looking for. Andthen I mix it with with kind of
your visions, and also what youwere taught what what you really
(26:14):
love doing in general, like whatare your activities, your sort
of hobbies, and that kind ofthing. So So you kind of have a
full map of everything. And thenit's really fun, because then
you can start playing around andthen saying, Why am I actually
stuck in this particularposition or job? It's not, it's
maybe 30% of my time that Iactually spend on stuff I really
(26:36):
love doing right? It should bethe other way around. Yes,
Dr. Leah OH (26:40):
exactly. And I love that that. Because I think for
so many people, it probablyfeels too heavy and too
abstract. But when you think ofthat as a little bit like a
puzzle that you can puttogether, we have some, you
know, strategies, you can use aStrengths Finder, just daily
(27:01):
checking in what did I reallyenjoy today. And I think that is
so powerful in helping people torecognize there are things that
I enjoy, there are things I canlean into.
Pia Wendelbo (27:13):
Oh, yeah. And another beautiful thing about
this also is that sometimes Ihave people coming in and then
say, I hate my job, I'm sodemotivated, I don't like what
I'm doing. But then when we havehad all these exercises and gone
through this, then they actuallyfigure out hey, why don't I ask
my boss? For instance? Or ifit's a year? Why don't I? Why
don't I just remake my own sortof daily routines, right?
(27:36):
Because why should I do thiswhen I can do that, and then
start interacting with people,because what you find out in a
team often is that the thingsthat you might love to do might
not be the same things that theother person's love to do. So
then in a team's thoughtsswitching, and talking about
these things, and actuallybuilding on top of each other's
strengths, then it's so powerfulin terms of teamwork as well,
(27:59):
because then everybody starts toreally do what they love to do
and are in flow, and then theproductivity and the quality of
what you're building or doingtogether. It erases
tremendously, actually. So thereare a lot of upsides in this.
And then maybe you don't evenwant to shift your job. Maybe it
was just because you were doingdifferent tasks that you didn't
love doing. You actuallygenuinely love your job. You
(28:20):
just did didn't spend time withthe right things.
Dr. Leah OH (28:24):
And what a powerful message if you can go to your
manager and say, you know, Irealized I really like a I don't
like B so much. And they sayhere, you're so wonderful. We
want to keep you let's figureout how we can get you doing
more a and accepting thoseconversations. I mean, I'm just
like, Yes, I am valued. I'mappreciated here what I do
(28:45):
matters. And that transformsthat workgroup.
Pia Wendelbo (28:50):
Exactly. Plus, you are also the proactive person,
right? So which many doesn'tlove that, you know, you're not
coming complaining in any wayyou actually coming with a
solution. So you are comingshowing, okay, I think we should
move around this, you will, youwill actually get better result
out of me if I get to do thisand this and this. And I have an
idea that maybe this can betaken and done over here or this
(29:12):
can be done here. Or maybe weshould even stop doing because
that's another interesting thinghere as well. What should we
stop doing? Because there's alsoa lot of stuff that we probably
shouldn't spend time on. Right.
But that's another that'sanother dialogue. Yeah, but
topic, but but. But yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (29:29):
Excellent. And my follow up question, which is
kind of, we've touched on this alittle bit. But one thing I'm
realizing and I think this ispost, you know, the surge of the
pandemic, in finding I'm havinga lot of conversations with
people who feel stuck or theyfeel a lack of motivation in
their current career. So arethere additional things that
(29:51):
they can do to help themrediscover that passion or drive
or kind of next steps?
Pia Wendelbo (29:58):
Yeah, I would, I would Definitely I would suggest
them to start where we justdiscussed, like, what do I
actually really love to do,because as you said, our minds
that's actually going back againto neuroscience. So when you are
trying to step out of somethingwhere you don't really know
where you're going, right, itcan be tremendously hard. And
that taking that first step issometimes really tough, right?
(30:20):
So what you have to do is thatyou have to trigger your mind
into allowing you to take thatfirst step. And the smaller, you
can make that first step, thebetter. So the smaller, you can
kind of tell yourself, okay,this is just a little thing I
need to go forward, the betterso so. So try to think of how
you can trunk whatever you arelooking for here, how can you
(30:43):
chunk it up into small, small,small pieces. So what would be
the first little tiny thing youcould do to take the first step
in the direction you want to goin, that's one thing you could
do. And other tool that I alsothink is quite interesting is
actually looking at what you'reafter so many people, they, they
tend to create their goalsaround a certain thing. Now,
(31:06):
very simple, simple example,here, I want to run a marathon,
right? Instead, I would go withtrying to force yourself into
identity goals instead. And thensaying, I don't want to run a
marathon, I want to be asibylline runner, right? Because
the other way you can kind offeel the difference here, here,
(31:26):
you're just looking towards acertain specific goal, what
happens then when you have runthat marathon? What will you
then do? Whereas if you aresupreme runner, then you you
kind of can evolve around it,right? And you can build all
your habits around that identitygoal as well. Because then you
can start asking yourself, okay,to become a supreme runner, what
what do I need to do, maybe Ineed to do a different training,
(31:47):
maybe I need to eat differently,or sleep differently, or
something else like that. So youcan kind of angle all the habits
and all the stuff you do back tothis identity goal. So is it
quite interesting, also, from afrom, from an organizational
point of view, like to lookdifferently on, on how we
actually achieve our goals. Thisis something that James clear
(32:10):
from atomic habits. I know him,he talks a lot about so I think
he has some really brillianttools in terms of working with
these identity based goalsinstead.
Dr. Leah OH (32:21):
Yes, I love that. I am familiar with the book, I've
read the book, and I forgotabout the shift to identity
rather than behavioral goals.
And when you're saying I'm like,Yes, this is this is brilliant.
And, you know, I think of thesecommitments as growing lakes. So
it's one thing like you said, ifit's just a marathon, I run and
around and around a little more,and I check off the marathon,
(32:45):
and then maybe, maybe I'm stuckbecause I achieved that one
goal. But you're right, whenyou're thinking about being a
really excellent runner, there'sa lot more that goes into that
than just this one outcome atthe end.
Pia Wendelbo (33:03):
Plus, it's also easy when you have these
different identity goals in yourlife, then you can also measure
everything up against it. So youcan kind of say, okay, the
direction I'm going in rightnow, here, that's not really
helping my identity goal, right.
So maybe I should do somethingdifferently. And what also
happens is that when you reallygo deep, and then it's something
you identify yourself with, thenit's also easier for you to hold
(33:23):
on to whatever happens and stuffyou need to do to go in that
direction. Because we know allof us knows, right, that there
will be days where you don't youfall in, you fall in. And that's
an other very important thingelse. From an observational
point of view. I see so manytimes, not any kinds of slack,
or any kind of behavioralframework in place to actually
(33:47):
help people bounce back to thegood, right. So that's another
reason why we often fail inthese transformations. Because
we don't have that framework inplace. So so but back to these
identity goals. If you'reactually working with that, then
it's going to be easier for youto bounce back because it's
something you really deeplydesire and want to do, right.
Dr. Leah OH (34:09):
Okay, so my next question is for you personally,
because I just You are soaccomplished. You do such
(34:29):
incredible work. And I'm justwondering, so What tips do you
have to You're staying currenton all of these industry trends,
these skills, whether it'stechnology or like you're
reading these latest books thatcome out, so What tips do you
have for for clients for usabout how to keep up with
(34:50):
everything?
Pia Wendelbo (34:53):
I listened to podcast Yeah, but I'm telling
him that I Of course, also booksand newsletters and that useful
stuff, networking events. Andthen a very important thing for
me, actually, I surround myselfwith people who also innovative
and eager to learn. So I thinkthe ecosystem here is very
(35:16):
important actually. And then Ialso pick out education. So I
continuously also take time outto educate myself continuously.
So basically, what I do is thatI have a system. So I work in
flow myself, I have to take myown medicine, right. So I work
in flow. So I'm very, veryconscious about what kind of
(35:37):
tasks I do throughout my day. SoI have specific time schedules
during the day where I do deepwork. And I know don't allow
meetings in that period, becauseI want to do deep work. And
then, as part of my system, aswell, I also have weekly, time
set off for for education. Andthat can be reading certain
articles that can be doing someschool stuff, or whatever it is.
(36:00):
But I think with the stuff thatis going on right now, with so
much change coming in, I thinkit's so so important that we
actually take time off toconstantly learn, because we
need to adapt quickly, all thetime. And I think, for me, at
least, one of the very importantmeta skills of the future is
(36:21):
quickly adapting and beingcapable of engaging and
interacting with new knowledgeall the time and applying it
into something concrete. Soreally taking time off is
important. And as we were justdiscussing, you know, our brains
need the slack also to learn, wecan't expect to take something
in just and then move on witheverything else going on the
(36:43):
sciences. So so we need to havecertain slack to actually take
it in, and then you need to workwith it. Right. So So that's
very important. And don't taketoo much in that at once. So I
also sometimes have, you know, abucket list of a lot of stuff I
want to do or learn or listeningto, but then I tried to
prioritize and then saying,Okay, today, on this my learning
(37:06):
Friday, I'm going to concentrateon this particular topic. And
then that's what I'm crunchingon.
Dr. Leah OH (37:12):
Yeah, and I've never thought of it as an
ecosystem. And that is, I'mreally visual. I imagine many of
the listeners are too, but kindof thinking about how all these
webs are tied together andimpacting one another. From
having a learning Friday toblacking time on our calendar
(37:32):
for work. And like you said,surrounding yourself with others
who just always want to becurious, always want to be
learning. Exactly. And
Pia Wendelbo (37:41):
it is actually yeah, people. It's really funny,
because, as you know, I'veworked many years with the
innovation and the creativityand product development and
everything. That's where I comefrom, right. And people are kind
of afraid, Oh, you're socreative. So you have no
systems, you have nothing right.
But it's exactly the opposite.
We have a lot of systems,because that's what frees our
minds to be creative andinnovative. So it's the
(38:03):
opposite. So yes, I have asystem and I have sit down and I
have my calendar. And I block mythings in so and then I've just
have a promise to myself thatthis is my square, you know,
where I'm deep working. So nomeetings there. And if it stands
there in front of you, it'seasier for you to say no, to
(38:23):
person, right? And then if it'snot in your calendar, because if
it's not in your calendar, thenit doesn't exist. And especially
in a big organization, right? Ifpeople actually make time in the
calendars for certain things,then it's harder to book.
Because most of the meetingsthat can wait a day or some
hours or a week even, it's notthat important. It's more to
(38:44):
talk about, you know, what ismost important right now, right?
We just need to navigate witheach other. So yeah, I'm a big
fan of learning sessions. I'm abig fan of Monday, free
meetings. Days, for instance,which we have also played a lot
around within teams, bi weeklyco sessions where we just
(39:04):
creative where you have sometime set off to actually just be
creative, innovative, thinkdeep. You know, do whatever
feels interesting for you.
Because that also recharges youbecause if you're working
especially within I would saythat the teams I mainly work
with is within eitherdevelopment or innovation or
(39:24):
combination of that and it'squite brain heavy, lots of
stuff. So also freeing up yourmind and having time for
actually just flying high isquite liberal.
Dr. Leah OH (39:38):
Yeah, so I was just thinking like that would be
really energizing. And thensomething I'm going to to be
thinking about as a plan for mynext semester and figuring out
that boost and that flexibilityand that creativity. Yeah,
Pia Wendelbo (39:54):
and then also imagine, you know, because one
thing is that you do ityourself. But then if you can
get the whole team or theapartments to actually do it.
Imagine the power you gettogether of actually doing this
together. And then of course,what you as the manager of this
team, what is really important,what I try to then teach there
is that you give them autonomyto actually make that happen. So
you need to, of course, feel,you know, keep the pressure
(40:16):
away. So, so he's quiteinteresting. But it's, it's
actually interesting how fastthat goes. Because if you keep
saying, No, you can't book thisteam, you can't book us for
meetings on Mondays because wedo that, then most people
actually accept it. So it's justabout the way you tell the story
and how you see it play right.
Dr. Leah OH (40:36):
Yeah, yep. So powerful change makers. Exactly.
So I have two final questionsfor you. And they're related.
And so on the communicativeleader, we really like to leave
our listeners with the pragmaticleadership or communication
tips, advice and challenge. Forour titled, leaders out there
(40:57):
are managers, supervisors, allthe way up to the C suite. What
advice do you have for thosefolks?
Pia Wendelbo (41:05):
Yeah, I think one thing that I would like to have
people reflect on is actuallywhat can you let go off today to
make room for your owntransformation? In terms of what
we were just talking, right? Andalso, you know, ask the same
questions to your team. So whatcan you actually let go off
(41:25):
today to make room for for forthis transformation? And what
will be the first little stepthat you can take to start
acting on, on your dream or yourgoal?
Dr. Leah OH (41:38):
Yeah, I'm writing I'm writing notes, because I
just it's so powerful, andfreeing to think sometimes we
need someone to actually posethe question. To us, we have
someone who has given uspermission to do it. And then to
also give that grace to our teamas well. That's, that's really
(42:00):
communicating a lot.
Pia Wendelbo (42:03):
And then another interesting angle. So this could
also be sure to ask yourself, ifyou have a partner in change,
because that's another verypowerful thing here. To actually
have, as we were discussing, youknow, a lot happens when you are
more people around it. So who doyou have as a partner in change,
and that can be an internalperson, or in my case, like, I'm
(42:24):
often that person also to bethat argument, in change for
especially the managers, becausethey are often flying a bit
around, they're alone in inthese transformations. But also,
for teams, it's very powerfulwhen you set up IT teams, so you
kind of have a body in your teamthat supports you with these
change things. Because you know,as a team, you also fall back,
(42:47):
if you have a new system you'retrying to learn or relearn, or
you're trying to implement agileworking, or whatever it is, it's
a lot of new stuff you need totake in and there'll be days
where you're just bouncing back.
So having a buddy kind of helpsyou right to keep you on track
as well, because hopefully, thatperson can then draw you up. And
then when you have a bad day,and then the other way around.
Right,
Dr. Leah OH (43:07):
exactly. And with that in mind. So we talked about
our titled leaders. So whatabout all of the other employees
across industries across ranks?
One, what do you want to leavethem with?
Pia Wendelbo (43:22):
I think that generally, I think it's very
important to be curious and stayopen. So the more curious you
are, the more you can actuallystay open, the more you can
investigate and research. Thebetter. So, so slow, as fast as
we kick this conversation offwith right? I think is it's so
(43:43):
important. I think my mostimportant tool is actually my
curiosity. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (43:49):
And what I love about that, is that something
that we can start right now, wedon't need to spend a bunch of
time and trainings, we don'tneed new technology. It's not
expensive, you know, in terms ofa financial or even a time cost
just to say, Huh, I'm wonderingabout that, or what is causing
(44:10):
this feeling. And then I thinkto the empowerment of being an
investigator, being thatresearcher is letting you know,
you're not just stuck, you havesome autonomy and agency here.
Pia Wendelbo (44:25):
Exactly. And that's actually also tools in
terms of the behavior, right,because if you feel that you are
in control, then you always cando stuff. You know, you're not
in a position where you feelstuck, or you feel that you're
out of sort of lack of beingable to react, right. So so it's
about giving the control back toyourself.
Dr. Leah OH (44:49):
Yeah, well, Pia thank you for sharing your
expertise, your time. This hasbeen so insightful and so
valuable. I know I'm going tocome back to this in a Your many
times and I know it will reallyhelp listeners as well.
Pia Wendelbo (45:04):
Thank you so much.
It was a pleasure to talk toyou.
Dr. Leah OH (45:09):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, you indicate with
intention and lead with purpose.
I'm looking forward to chattingwith you again soon. I'm the
communicative leader.
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