October 29, 2023 • 31 mins
Ulrike Seminati shines great insight into something all of us struggle with to some extent -- Procrastination.
We might find ourselves dragging our feet for a certain task we don't love, or we might find that procrastination has become our go-to.
Regardless, Ulrike provides some specific advice to help us get out of the mud and into the work.
She also leaves titled leaders with some specific tips for better understanding themselves which can help open the gates for stronger relationships and more effective output.
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Ulrike Seminati is a global leadership and
(00:03):
communication coach. But shebegan as an administrative
assistant and was a C levelexecutive when she left industry
to open her own consulting firm.
She provides thoughtful,pragmatic suggestions to help us
move from procrastination toaction. This is definitely an
episode I know I'm gonna findmyself returning to when I'm
(00:23):
feeling a little bit stuck, orcan't quite put my finger on why
I'm not getting going on thatproject that needs to be done.
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. Myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert,
(00:45):
and the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Thank you Ulrike for joining ustoday, I'm so excited to chat
with you about leadership andAvoiding Procrastination. But
before we dig in, can you tellus a little bit about yourself
maybe the path you took to getwhere you are today?
Ulrike Seminati (01:08):
Yes, so I'm coming actually from the
corporate world. I have spent 23years and I started as an
assistant and climbed up thewhole career ladder until I
became a C level executive. Andduring these different stages, I
was obviously then having allthe different experiences as a
junior manager, middle manager,and also a very senior executive
(01:28):
looking at an internationalorganization from the top. And
that came then when I thoughtnow I have to change something
in organizations becausewherever I have worked, people
are mostly unhappy and are notfeeling seen or not feeling
heard or not feeling like theirideas are taken into account.
And in worst case, don't eventreat it as humans, at least not
(01:51):
in their eyes. And I thought wehave to change something. And so
I stepped out of the corporateworld four years ago, and shake
my own company, because I alsomade the experience that when
you come in as an externalexpert, you are listened to much
more than if you're an internalexpert. And this is why I shaped
my own company. And today I amgiving trainings, one on one
(02:12):
coaching and also do consultingin terms of communicating with
impact leading withauthenticity. And ultimately,
that leads really to leadingchange in an effective way,
which is what every leader hasto do every day.
Dr. Leah OH (02:26):
Yes, and you hit on so many important things and
really infuriating things atpoints because like you said,
not treated like humans. And Ireally do I do think we we treat
our technology better than wetreat our employees often.
Right, we see that as a biggerand more important investment
than our human resources. Andthen also the fact that
(02:50):
unfortunately, like you said, alead is when your external, you
are listened to, you are seen asan expert, even if you have that
same degree of training andexpertise internally, as we you
know, hitting on those thingsthat can make being an employee
so challenging. Yeah. So we knowthat you are this
(03:11):
internationally renownedleadership communication expert,
you're a consultant, and aproductive leader, right? You're
juggling multi, multiple tasks.
And maybe some of these are evencompeting demands. And you don't
get here by dragging your feetor constantly Miss missing or
pushing deadlines. Soconsidering this, what can you
kind of tell us about theintersection of leadership and
(03:33):
procrastination.
Ulrike Seminati (03:39):
I think it has a lot to do with each other.
Because at the end, we allprocrastinate every day. And we
also all lead every day or tryto lead. First of all, we lead
ourselves every day, that's forsure. And then we also lead
others even if we don't have bigteams, but you are operating or
cooperating with yourcolleagues, for example, with
(03:59):
peers, and with people aroundyou. And we always can influence
others, and help them achievesomething. And that is leading
to me too. So when it comes toprocrastination, and leadership,
I think it's extremely importantfor any leader or all of those
who want to be leaders. And it'sclear that it's about that one
of the core things that you haveto do is is creating trust and
(04:21):
relationships with people. Andtrust and relationship is always
related to keeping your wordsticking to your words, being
consistent, showing somecontinuity. And this is what is
most of the times total oppositeof procrastination. Because it's
about over and over promising,for example, not sticking to
(04:43):
your word postponing thingseternally. And it's important
that you stick to your word as aleader and for yourself because
also, you tell yourself off whenyou do not stick to your word.
We all do that automaticallywithout realizing it. And that
doesn't help us to be fullypresent to be in our full power.
and all of that. So there's alot around procrastination I
could talk about. But I thinkthe most important thing is to
(05:06):
understand, why do Iprocrastinate? And first of all,
to admit that I procrastinate.
Yeah. And if people look back atjust what they have done over
the past four hours, forexample, just look at your past
four hours, what have youprocrastinated on? Which email?
Did you not send out and say, Ido this later? I do it tomorrow,
which meeting Have you not putinto your calendar, because for
some reason, you shy away fromdoing that. And sometimes, and
(05:29):
often we procrastinate on tasks,where we do not even know why.
Obviously, the tasks we don'tlike, and then it's obvious, but
they're much more task whereit's so obvious at all, where
it's very clear why we have todo that. And still we
procrastinate on that. And thatis something I'm really working
on to find that out and helppeople find out why they do that
against all logic against allthe rationale that we have
(05:53):
around our goals, and next stepsand all of that, why we still
know not take actionaccordingly. And by this, we are
not showing the best example wedo not walk the talk for others.
And this is how it ties in withleadership.
Dr. Leah OH (06:08):
Yeah. Yeah, you hit on so many important points in
can, what I'm hearing is, and weknow, this is leadership, you
know, kind of experts andscholars is the importance of
role modeling. In that so oftenthat's overlooked? Because they
think, no, it's what I'm saying.
And I told you to do this, butthen what are my actions?
(06:29):
Telling you? Right? So anythingof that in the workgroup, we can
think about that at home withkids in the community. So
really, really important things.
And another thing I had neverthought of procrastination as
over promising. And I reallyliked that take on it. So I'm
(06:50):
going to I'm going to ask you alittle bit more about this in
this follow up question. You'vekind of touched on some of
these. But I'm wondering, inyour experiences, either when
you are working in industry inthese different positions, or
more recently, as a consultantwith your organization, what do
you see most formal leaders,these title managers, directors,
supervisors? What do you seethem doing in terms of engaging
(07:15):
or managing theirprocrastination?
Ulrike Seminati (07:19):
I think most people, normal people, let's
say, who have not reallyreflected on that topic, yet
deeply, just act out of theirown perspective, which is always
a limited perspective. So youand I, we also have limited
perspectives of exactly the samething, we might have a different
opinion, a differentperspective. And most of the
(07:40):
times, and most people do notthink about that, they just take
this perspective, as thereality. And they take for
granted that everybody else willsee the same reality and
therefore fully understand whatthey are doing or saying or what
they want others to do, forexample, because for them, it's
crystal clear. And I think thatis the point that we we are
(08:04):
acting out of our own beliefsystem, which has been formed by
our upbringing by ourpersonality styles as well. All
of that plays a role in how wesee a situation and what is
logical for us a logical nextstep, what is attractive to us
why a goal is interesting, whyan action should be taken, for
example, and we believe that foreverybody else, it's the same.
(08:24):
And I think that is the pointwhere leaders who do not go this
extra mile into really eatingothers from another perspective,
where they just stick to theirown. And this is how
communication becomesinefficient as well and not
impactful at all. Why? Becausethey communicate out of their
perspective. And that means thatthe message is whatever they
(08:45):
say, whatever they write, isperfectly tailor made. And we're
the one and single person whowill never get it. Because it's
tailor made to themselves, notto anybody else.
Dr. Leah OH (08:56):
Yeah, oh, I really liked that. And I think too, as
made my master's PhD all incommunication, and the simplest
thing we can do is consider theaudience. And that's often the
last thing that we do when we'veexhausted all of these other
ways of trying to explain andprovide direction and
(09:18):
instruction. And then it's like,okay, where are you? How do I
get there? And we, if we startedthere, life would be so much
easier. But like you said, it's,it's, it's challenging to step
outside of your perspective, oneand then to to really consider
others perspectives around you.
Excellent. So our last question,we kind of talked about what
(09:41):
most leaders do, and I betyou've had the experience of
working with some really greatleaders like the ones who say,
Okay, Coach me, I want to getbetter. What do I need to do so
what are these what is that goldstandard? What are they doing in
terms of kind of interactingwith procrastination and
managing it in a healthy,productive way.
Ulrike Seminati (10:07):
So for me that two dimensions into that, that's
the AI dimension, okay? Or thebeing, you can also call it and
there's the we dimension, whichis rather than doing, and mostly
to stay in the weed I mentionedin the doing, because also they
have been trained and told sooften you have to care about
your teams and your teams andyour team. And I realized that,
first of all, people need tounderstand themselves. And that
(10:31):
is something that leaders do notdo. Excellent leaders do that
they have worked on themselves,they have found out first, and
it's so important to do thatfirst, before you think of your
team, that they have understoodhow they relate to a goal,
what's motivating them about agoal, and sometimes they're not
motivated by goals they're givento. Yeah, so that's also a good
(10:51):
question, how can I stillmotivate myself indirectly,
maybe for a goal that I don'tlike very much at first sight?
What's my relationship toeverything that I do to my tasks
to my actions? What is holdingme back usually, you know, what
are some of these very classicpatterns that I have me as a
leader as one single individualperson. And it's worth looking
(11:11):
into this and being very clear,because that gives leaders the
opportunity then, to no longerruminate about themselves, and
being stuck in their ownperspective. Because they are
clear about that. And they canmove their focus to the outside
world. This is when you startconnecting, because you if not,
you're just connected toyourself all the time. It sounds
(11:35):
a bit paradox. But being firstof all, connecting to yourself,
and understanding yourself helpsyou to be connected, then to
others and less to, you know,less concentrated on yourself
and say let's not thinking abouthow I should say that why I
should say to you, because youhave some clarity. So that's the
first very important step. Andwhat I then see, out of that
(11:56):
perspective, leaders canunderstand how they are
different to other people or totheir team members. And it's
really about changing thatperspective and understanding
that they have also because ofthe level where they are, they
have certainly a different viewon a team goal than their team
members. Yeah, even if it'sonly, let's say one hierarchy
(12:17):
step away, it is very, verydifferent. So they have another
knowledge, other backgroundinformation. And it can also be
that they have a totallydifferent personality. That's
why they are the leader.
Sometimes not always, but veryoften it's like that, and it's
really about them. Changing thisperspective and thinking about,
you can call it a dictionary,you know, if you use a typical
(12:41):
leader dictionary, you will findwords like growth opportunities,
performance, best practice, highperforming teams, you know,
agile, okay, all of that. Andevery organization wants that.
And 70% of the world'spopulation shiz away from that,
or even hates it or fears it.
(13:02):
Yeah. And that is the wholepoint that that those who like
these words, and not all leaderslike these words, but they think
they have to show up as if theyliked these words. So the first
thing is to admit that you mightnot like them yourself. Yeah.
Which doesn't mean that youcannot embrace it. But at least
you know, my heart is not inthese words, and change the
(13:24):
dictionary, you can explainexactly the same growth project,
or what for most people is wasthe same change or
transformation project, you'rejust ahead of them. By using
just not the words like growth,opportunity, performance, all of
these words, which are moreperformance and result driven.
And you can go into somethingelse we can say this brings us
(13:47):
more continuity, they can bringus on the midterm, more
stability in our jobs, somethingpeople can feel safe, because
most people feel extremelythreatened by this vocabulary.
And so you need to change thewording. But for that, you need
to understand that some peoplereally, really need that even if
you do not need that at all, andyou can't feel it. I think when
(14:10):
people hear that when theylisten now they might understand
like, yeah, right, I have somany people who should always
resistance. I don't know they'reprocrastinate on everything.
They do not do what I asked themto any three email reminders to
get them out of what they'redoing right now. And why is
that? Well, it's exactly becauseof this because you will most
likely have used words that arethat are frightening them and
(14:34):
most people used and more ofthese words because they think
it was not enough. And that'seven worse. At the end people do
it but they do it without joy.
They don't break their footideas in they do not use the
whole brain because they justare not in it at all. So they do
it because they're paid forthat.
Dr. Leah OH (14:52):
Yeah. Yeah. And you can see the like you said the
cycle that continues. You didn'trespond to my leader. dictionary
words, first time, so I'm gonnathrow more leader dictionary
words at you. And it's, youknow, we can sit and smile and
laugh about this because we'renot in the situation at this
given moment. But you're right,when you're on the receiving
(15:13):
end, that's really frightening,and not recognizing to what that
means for your job for yourstability, and maybe even for
the project. So, thank you,that's so insightful. I really,
really love thinking about it inthat way. The other thing that I
was thinking about when you'retalking is relationships, again,
(15:37):
like you said, even relationshipwith self in relation to to
project and relationship tocertain goals and recognizing
the importance of relationshipsare not just external. That if
we don't have that kind ofshored up and that self
reflection, you know, oursuccesses are likely to be short
(15:58):
lived, even if we
Ulrike Seminati (16:01):
Yeah, exactly.
Thank
Dr. Leah OH (16:02):
you. So I this next question is one that I imagine
you hear often, and I imaginethis is a lot of times what
clients come to you with is thisidea of this is costing us time
this is costing us money, thisineffectiveness. So what do you
see what is the you know, thecost of ineffective time and
(16:25):
project management and teams,leaders and organizations.
Ulrike Seminati (16:30):
So it's hard to say, because I always try also
to find studies about this, andthree, how to find those who are
compelling, but the number thatI use often, and then everybody
can calculate for themselves.
But it seems that 70% ofbusiness mistakes made in
organizations are due to poorcommunication. 70%, you know, a
(16:50):
client that you lose a clientthat is delivered too late,
where you have to pay fees, forexample, an opportunity is
completely lost for a merger andacquisition or something like
that, whatever. They can be big,big deals, 70% of business
mistakes. And poor communicationis a vast topic, obviously. But
(17:11):
it's always about assuming thatpeople understand what you want
from them, and just assuming itwithout knowing. And that's what
we do. And this is poorcommunication. Because at the
end, people do not understand.
And people always, because justbecause they are informed, they
will not take action. So wealways make this conclusion that
(17:35):
when we inform somebody aboutthe why or about what we think
is the why, again, it's alwaysfrom our perspective, then
people will take actionautomatically, how could they do
something different? And at theend? No, they don't, because the
Y is not compelling for them.
And somebody else or something,something else is holding them
back from taking that action,maybe they have just very
(17:58):
different priorities, maybe theyhave a lot of fear. And this is
why they don't even go for somesome action they need to take
because they think oh, if I dothat I might be rejected, I
might fail in this typicalfears. We do not take this into
consideration. And this is how alot of opportunities, business
opportunities are lost. Andthat's what you see at the end
the bottom line results of anyorganization. And I think the
(18:20):
trick is really that you can'tcalculate it mathematically,
like you can calculate how muchless cash flow you have when you
have a high inventory, forexample. Yeah, that's, you can
calculate that. And these, and Idon't really like that term, the
so called soft skills can neverbe really measured. That's why
(18:41):
they're called like that, thatat the end, in my opinion, the
difference that they make on thebottom line result is much
higher, like you said, In thebeginning, we take more more
time or more care of digitalsystems, or have developing
processes and methods and all ofthat. And never really think
about the fact that all theseperfect processes methods need
(19:02):
to be at the end used by people.
And if you don't take action,well then fine to have a great
process. But if nobody appliesit nothing happened.
Dr. Leah OH (19:15):
Yeah, exactly anything like that. The way you
framed it, the why is notcompelling. Me or we've made
some assumptions thatrecognizing to kind of going
back to the audience analysis,like you said, step out of our
perspective and figuring outwhat we're asking people and how
this impacts them in very realways. And maybe gasp asked for
(19:39):
their opinion. i Oh my gosh. Sothank you that I have so many
things to think about. I'mreally enjoying this and I have
two two final questions for you.
So this first one is kind ofreflecting on either your
experiences in organizations ornot out in owning your
(19:59):
organization and consulting. Butif you had two leadership
lessons, so what are these twothat either kind of you've
learned and you continue toreturn to? Or alternatively,
what are some lessons that youwish the leaders you worked
with? Or served under? What doyou wish they knew?
Ulrike Seminati (20:20):
It comes back to what I said earlier on is
these two dimensions I and thewe. So focus really on yourself
first, take time for that.
Whenever Yeah, but it's soimportant. I wish that I was
more aware, when I was a leader.
(20:40):
And I wasn't I was more or lessstumbling successfully through
my career more or less driven,because I wanted to learn and
because I wanted to have aninteresting profile. And so yes,
I tried a lot of new things. Andthat was great. But I could have
standard really differently.
Because very often, I feltawkward, no imposter syndrome in
place, not confident enough. Buton the outside Everybody thought
(21:01):
I was. But I was certainly notauthentic. And I was losing a
lot of power, a lot of energy inthat a lot of worry and anxiety
behind the scenes in myself. AndI think many people have that.
And just the first thing isreally to understand, who am I?
How did I do I relate to my jobto what I have to do. And
(21:21):
admitting also the things thatdon't work? Well, when you're
not perfect to yourself, I mean,really admit things to yourself.
Many people shy away from that,when I speak to leaders, they
have all these also, this kindof fear as if they couldn't
function anymore operateanymore, as soon as they see
something which they don't likein themselves. And I think it's
really important to get awayfrom that. You can only win if
(21:44):
you look into yourself, really.
And you can only develop likewith any project, you can only
develop something where you areaware with other development
areas. And so help yourselfreally to get out of this
anxiety mode and out of thismode of oh, I just somehow do
things and I don't really feelbeing myself, oftentimes, by
(22:07):
understanding who you are, Ithink that's the biggest task.
Because when you have done that,and then comes to second step,
and that is really about lookingat others and creating just much
more awareness about theirreactions and learning to be
emotionally intelligent and moreempathetic. Learning to
understand what triggers them.
Some are similar to me for sure.
(22:30):
But some are totally different.
They have Why the heck are theyinterested in that? Or why are
they not reacting to thiswonderful thing that is said
Yeah. And, and seeing this issomething that you can then grow
and really work with that muchmore deliberately and address it
as well with people thedifferences and value the
difference is there's no good orbad profile. So I think it's
(22:52):
really about understanding whatwe always call diversity. And
we'd love to have that. That'sThat's it understanding, first
of all, who you are, who are theothers? And how can we value all
of that how we can bring thesevery different strengths
together to create synergies,instead of trying to push
everybody into the same leadershape of being a perfect growth
(23:13):
mindset that loves agility?
Because it's really an illusion.
Some people cannot be theanswer, even if they wanted to,
but they can't.
Dr. Leah OH (23:24):
Exactly yeah. Gosh, it's so, so helpful. It reminds
me of advice. When I firstbecame a faculty member, my
current my previous director,she took me to lunch. And she's
like, you're not teachingyourself. And I was like, okay,
and she's like, No, stop,listen, you don't have a
(23:45):
classroom full of Leah's. And ittook a minute to set in them.
And it's been so helpful sincebecause things before be like, I
don't understand why you didn'tturn this assignment. And of
course, I've always lovedschool. That's why I'm still in
a school. Right? This is aprofessor. So it is so helpful
(24:08):
to return to that advice. Andremember, I'm not serving my
students, well, if I think I'monly teaching to myself, because
I am missing their goals andtheir needs and all of the
things that make them them. AndI can see that parallel to this
advice that you're offering us.
And again, it's helped metremendously, very humbling, but
(24:30):
also really helpful. It's helpedme to be a much better faculty
member because of that. Great.
And so my last question for you.
So this the previous question wekind of talked about from a
leader perspective. We know wespend more of our time and
follow our roles and even whenwe are a CEO, we might have a
(24:53):
board of directors to answer to.
So we're we're employees allranks levels industries, in
terms of embracing the unknown,becoming more comfortable with
pivots, anything related toleadership and procrastination,
what advice do you have forthese friends?
Ulrike Seminati (25:16):
Find out what is really important for you. It
can be your values, but it canalso be just needs that you
have, you know, some people havea need for status and power.
Some others have a need forstability and security, or for
for very connected socialrelationships, or for exploring
(25:37):
new things, and to end havingadventures all the time. These
are four very different types ofprofiles. Now, what are your
needs? What do you really,really need at work and newly at
home as well. And when youunderstand that, then you can
help yourself to betterunderstand how you relate to the
tasks that you're given to goalsthat you set yourself even in
(25:59):
your private life. And askyourself like a marketing
person, what's in it for me?
What's in it for me? And what'sin it for you? is probably not
what's in the FAQ that comesmaybe from the top of your
organization? Yeah, it's mostlikely not because somebody has
written that out of theirperspective. But you have
something particular what's init for you. And if you see, wow,
(26:21):
there's this huge organizationalchange, let's use that example.
Because that is very often verycommon. And I don't know, I
don't know if I can stay in myteam, I don't even know if I
keep my job or whatever. And youare somebody who has a strong
need for security and stability,then you're really in trouble.
And that's what most people facearound out there most of the
(26:43):
time. And it's really importantto start reflecting and you need
to become a bit creative aroundwhat's in it for me in this one.
So okay, first of all, Iacknowledge I'm frightened for
sure. This is really scary tome, I acknowledge that it's not
a weakness, because I have otherstrengths and maybe super
reliable, so I have otherstrengths. But so what's in it
(27:04):
for me, ultimately, and veryoften in things that we don't
like or don't like to do, we cansee that right away. And it's
not exactly in the thing, youwill not find something in the
organization, the reorganizationor the change as such. But you
might something, find somethingthat is behind that, or a side
effects are really think out ofthe box, think broader. If
(27:26):
there's something in it for yousomething that fits your needs.
And especially when it comes tothings where you have a strong
resistance, but no choice, thendoing it, because you're paid
for that because it's your job,let's say that if it thinks you
can, you can change that and notdo well and take the deliberate
decision to be bold enough tosay no, but sometimes you can't.
(27:49):
But if you really, really can't,then it's about finding a
motivation for yourself that isoutside of the obvious
motivation that people expectfrom you. And you don't have to
say that to anyone what it is,it's very personal. It's really
for you give yourself thatstrength, that gift, that you
have something else you can youcan hook yourself on somehow.
And that gives you this this,yeah, this power and this not
(28:13):
enthusiasm, but at least acertain will, to execute on
certain tasks to take certainactions with a bit less
resistance than you would haveif you hadn't thought about it
at all. And I think this isimportant in today's world, when
it comes to inner balance to bea bit more mentally healthy as
well. And not to run into theseextremely stressful situations
(28:34):
that we might face mentallywithout reflecting on this.
Dr. Leah OH (28:39):
Yes. And in love in your response. It's this idea. I
think so often we in thesepositions, we can feel like
we're just kind of being tossedup, tossed along and bobbing
along waiting for the next waveto hit. But when we kind of spin
it, we acknowledge how we'retruly feeling and like you said,
we don't have to verbalize thisto anyone else. We acknowledge
(29:02):
that and then think about towhat's in it. For me. I think
that's something that manyemployees don't often give
themselves the luxury, I don'teven know if we should call it a
luxury, the benefit of lookingat because there's so often just
to do this and this and this, Imight be losing my job. I don't
know what this big changecoming. I'm gonna keep doing
(29:23):
this. But like you said, Ireally love how much that
empowers an employee to say, youknow, I'm going to shift this
way and I'm gonna have this newperspective. Or I didn't realize
this was in it for me, but nowthis is something that I can
keep, you know, working towardas we navigate the situation.
Ulrike Seminati (29:46):
You know, for example, and it's just, it's
just came to my mind becauseoften people you know, they do
that job also because they havea family and they feel like oh
my god, I have to stick to it. Ihave to go through all these.
Let's call it bad exposure.
against those who are forcedinto things, I'm really, really
stressed. It's horrible. It'shorrible. It's horrible. And
this is this is the carousel ofwords, chatterbox in our head
all the time. And instead ofdoing that, for example, you
(30:09):
could more deliberately shiftyour focus and say what's in it
for me is that I can spendoutside of that job quality time
with my children, that we canstill I don't know afford this
really beautiful garden. Andinstead of when you are in that
garden with your children, thenruminating about your child, how
horrible it is, rather say, Ican enjoy that. And I'm grateful
(30:32):
because I am delivering thatthrough what I'm doing. You
know, you give it a differentquality. You give you work, a
different quality, give it adifferent sense, not like the
fear of losing something. Butrather like this creates the
power of creating something inmy life. That's valuable for me
and lets me in completelyoutside of your role of your
dress
Dr. Leah OH (30:54):
in such a powerful and empowering mind shift.
Exactly. Yeah, thank you. I havetruly enjoyed this conversation.
I've learned so much. I cannotwait to integrate it into my
classes and to continue kind ofthinking about this as I do my
own research and discovery. Sothank you for being here with us
(31:17):
today.
Ulrike Seminati (31:17):
Yeah, thank you. It was great to be with
you, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (31:23):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. Lookingforward to chatting with you
again soon on the communicativeleader.
Ulrike Seminati is a global leadership and
(00:03):
communication coach. But shebegan as an administrative
assistant and was a C levelexecutive when she left industry
to open her own consulting firm.
She provides thoughtful,pragmatic suggestions to help us
move from procrastination toaction. This is definitely an
episode I know I'm gonna findmyself returning to when I'm
(00:23):
feeling a little bit stuck, orcan't quite put my finger on why
I'm not getting going on thatproject that needs to be done.
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. Myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert,
(00:45):
and the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
Thank you Ulrike for joining ustoday, I'm so excited to chat
with you about leadership andAvoiding Procrastination. But
before we dig in, can you tellus a little bit about yourself
maybe the path you took to getwhere you are today?
Ulrike Seminati (01:08):
Yes, so I'm coming actually from the
corporate world. I have spent 23years and I started as an
assistant and climbed up thewhole career ladder until I
became a C level executive. Andduring these different stages, I
was obviously then having allthe different experiences as a
junior manager, middle manager,and also a very senior executive
(01:28):
looking at an internationalorganization from the top. And
that came then when I thoughtnow I have to change something
in organizations becausewherever I have worked, people
are mostly unhappy and are notfeeling seen or not feeling
heard or not feeling like theirideas are taken into account.
And in worst case, don't eventreat it as humans, at least not
(01:51):
in their eyes. And I thought wehave to change something. And so
I stepped out of the corporateworld four years ago, and shake
my own company, because I alsomade the experience that when
you come in as an externalexpert, you are listened to much
more than if you're an internalexpert. And this is why I shaped
my own company. And today I amgiving trainings, one on one
(02:12):
coaching and also do consultingin terms of communicating with
impact leading withauthenticity. And ultimately,
that leads really to leadingchange in an effective way,
which is what every leader hasto do every day.
Dr. Leah OH (02:26):
Yes, and you hit on so many important things and
really infuriating things atpoints because like you said,
not treated like humans. And Ireally do I do think we we treat
our technology better than wetreat our employees often.
Right, we see that as a biggerand more important investment
than our human resources. Andthen also the fact that
(02:50):
unfortunately, like you said, alead is when your external, you
are listened to, you are seen asan expert, even if you have that
same degree of training andexpertise internally, as we you
know, hitting on those thingsthat can make being an employee
so challenging. Yeah. So we knowthat you are this
(03:11):
internationally renownedleadership communication expert,
you're a consultant, and aproductive leader, right? You're
juggling multi, multiple tasks.
And maybe some of these are evencompeting demands. And you don't
get here by dragging your feetor constantly Miss missing or
pushing deadlines. Soconsidering this, what can you
kind of tell us about theintersection of leadership and
(03:33):
procrastination.
Ulrike Seminati (03:39):
I think it has a lot to do with each other.
Because at the end, we allprocrastinate every day. And we
also all lead every day or tryto lead. First of all, we lead
ourselves every day, that's forsure. And then we also lead
others even if we don't have bigteams, but you are operating or
cooperating with yourcolleagues, for example, with
(03:59):
peers, and with people aroundyou. And we always can influence
others, and help them achievesomething. And that is leading
to me too. So when it comes toprocrastination, and leadership,
I think it's extremely importantfor any leader or all of those
who want to be leaders. And it'sclear that it's about that one
of the core things that you haveto do is is creating trust and
(04:21):
relationships with people. Andtrust and relationship is always
related to keeping your wordsticking to your words, being
consistent, showing somecontinuity. And this is what is
most of the times total oppositeof procrastination. Because it's
about over and over promising,for example, not sticking to
(04:43):
your word postponing thingseternally. And it's important
that you stick to your word as aleader and for yourself because
also, you tell yourself off whenyou do not stick to your word.
We all do that automaticallywithout realizing it. And that
doesn't help us to be fullypresent to be in our full power.
and all of that. So there's alot around procrastination I
could talk about. But I thinkthe most important thing is to
(05:06):
understand, why do Iprocrastinate? And first of all,
to admit that I procrastinate.
Yeah. And if people look back atjust what they have done over
the past four hours, forexample, just look at your past
four hours, what have youprocrastinated on? Which email?
Did you not send out and say, Ido this later? I do it tomorrow,
which meeting Have you not putinto your calendar, because for
some reason, you shy away fromdoing that. And sometimes, and
(05:29):
often we procrastinate on tasks,where we do not even know why.
Obviously, the tasks we don'tlike, and then it's obvious, but
they're much more task whereit's so obvious at all, where
it's very clear why we have todo that. And still we
procrastinate on that. And thatis something I'm really working
on to find that out and helppeople find out why they do that
against all logic against allthe rationale that we have
(05:53):
around our goals, and next stepsand all of that, why we still
know not take actionaccordingly. And by this, we are
not showing the best example wedo not walk the talk for others.
And this is how it ties in withleadership.
Dr. Leah OH (06:08):
Yeah. Yeah, you hit on so many important points in
can, what I'm hearing is, and weknow, this is leadership, you
know, kind of experts andscholars is the importance of
role modeling. In that so oftenthat's overlooked? Because they
think, no, it's what I'm saying.
And I told you to do this, butthen what are my actions?
(06:29):
Telling you? Right? So anythingof that in the workgroup, we can
think about that at home withkids in the community. So
really, really important things.
And another thing I had neverthought of procrastination as
over promising. And I reallyliked that take on it. So I'm
(06:50):
going to I'm going to ask you alittle bit more about this in
this follow up question. You'vekind of touched on some of
these. But I'm wondering, inyour experiences, either when
you are working in industry inthese different positions, or
more recently, as a consultantwith your organization, what do
you see most formal leaders,these title managers, directors,
supervisors? What do you seethem doing in terms of engaging
(07:15):
or managing theirprocrastination?
Ulrike Seminati (07:19):
I think most people, normal people, let's
say, who have not reallyreflected on that topic, yet
deeply, just act out of theirown perspective, which is always
a limited perspective. So youand I, we also have limited
perspectives of exactly the samething, we might have a different
opinion, a differentperspective. And most of the
(07:40):
times, and most people do notthink about that, they just take
this perspective, as thereality. And they take for
granted that everybody else willsee the same reality and
therefore fully understand whatthey are doing or saying or what
they want others to do, forexample, because for them, it's
crystal clear. And I think thatis the point that we we are
(08:04):
acting out of our own beliefsystem, which has been formed by
our upbringing by ourpersonality styles as well. All
of that plays a role in how wesee a situation and what is
logical for us a logical nextstep, what is attractive to us
why a goal is interesting, whyan action should be taken, for
example, and we believe that foreverybody else, it's the same.
(08:24):
And I think that is the pointwhere leaders who do not go this
extra mile into really eatingothers from another perspective,
where they just stick to theirown. And this is how
communication becomesinefficient as well and not
impactful at all. Why? Becausethey communicate out of their
perspective. And that means thatthe message is whatever they
(08:45):
say, whatever they write, isperfectly tailor made. And we're
the one and single person whowill never get it. Because it's
tailor made to themselves, notto anybody else.
Dr. Leah OH (08:56):
Yeah, oh, I really liked that. And I think too, as
made my master's PhD all incommunication, and the simplest
thing we can do is consider theaudience. And that's often the
last thing that we do when we'veexhausted all of these other
ways of trying to explain andprovide direction and
(09:18):
instruction. And then it's like,okay, where are you? How do I
get there? And we, if we startedthere, life would be so much
easier. But like you said, it's,it's, it's challenging to step
outside of your perspective, oneand then to to really consider
others perspectives around you.
Excellent. So our last question,we kind of talked about what
(09:41):
most leaders do, and I betyou've had the experience of
working with some really greatleaders like the ones who say,
Okay, Coach me, I want to getbetter. What do I need to do so
what are these what is that goldstandard? What are they doing in
terms of kind of interactingwith procrastination and
managing it in a healthy,productive way.
Ulrike Seminati (10:07):
So for me that two dimensions into that, that's
the AI dimension, okay? Or thebeing, you can also call it and
there's the we dimension, whichis rather than doing, and mostly
to stay in the weed I mentionedin the doing, because also they
have been trained and told sooften you have to care about
your teams and your teams andyour team. And I realized that,
first of all, people need tounderstand themselves. And that
(10:31):
is something that leaders do notdo. Excellent leaders do that
they have worked on themselves,they have found out first, and
it's so important to do thatfirst, before you think of your
team, that they have understoodhow they relate to a goal,
what's motivating them about agoal, and sometimes they're not
motivated by goals they're givento. Yeah, so that's also a good
(10:51):
question, how can I stillmotivate myself indirectly,
maybe for a goal that I don'tlike very much at first sight?
What's my relationship toeverything that I do to my tasks
to my actions? What is holdingme back usually, you know, what
are some of these very classicpatterns that I have me as a
leader as one single individualperson. And it's worth looking
(11:11):
into this and being very clear,because that gives leaders the
opportunity then, to no longerruminate about themselves, and
being stuck in their ownperspective. Because they are
clear about that. And they canmove their focus to the outside
world. This is when you startconnecting, because you if not,
you're just connected toyourself all the time. It sounds
(11:35):
a bit paradox. But being firstof all, connecting to yourself,
and understanding yourself helpsyou to be connected, then to
others and less to, you know,less concentrated on yourself
and say let's not thinking abouthow I should say that why I
should say to you, because youhave some clarity. So that's the
first very important step. Andwhat I then see, out of that
(11:56):
perspective, leaders canunderstand how they are
different to other people or totheir team members. And it's
really about changing thatperspective and understanding
that they have also because ofthe level where they are, they
have certainly a different viewon a team goal than their team
members. Yeah, even if it'sonly, let's say one hierarchy
(12:17):
step away, it is very, verydifferent. So they have another
knowledge, other backgroundinformation. And it can also be
that they have a totallydifferent personality. That's
why they are the leader.
Sometimes not always, but veryoften it's like that, and it's
really about them. Changing thisperspective and thinking about,
you can call it a dictionary,you know, if you use a typical
(12:41):
leader dictionary, you will findwords like growth opportunities,
performance, best practice, highperforming teams, you know,
agile, okay, all of that. Andevery organization wants that.
And 70% of the world'spopulation shiz away from that,
or even hates it or fears it.
(13:02):
Yeah. And that is the wholepoint that that those who like
these words, and not all leaderslike these words, but they think
they have to show up as if theyliked these words. So the first
thing is to admit that you mightnot like them yourself. Yeah.
Which doesn't mean that youcannot embrace it. But at least
you know, my heart is not inthese words, and change the
(13:24):
dictionary, you can explainexactly the same growth project,
or what for most people is wasthe same change or
transformation project, you'rejust ahead of them. By using
just not the words like growth,opportunity, performance, all of
these words, which are moreperformance and result driven.
And you can go into somethingelse we can say this brings us
(13:47):
more continuity, they can bringus on the midterm, more
stability in our jobs, somethingpeople can feel safe, because
most people feel extremelythreatened by this vocabulary.
And so you need to change thewording. But for that, you need
to understand that some peoplereally, really need that even if
you do not need that at all, andyou can't feel it. I think when
(14:10):
people hear that when theylisten now they might understand
like, yeah, right, I have somany people who should always
resistance. I don't know they'reprocrastinate on everything.
They do not do what I asked themto any three email reminders to
get them out of what they'redoing right now. And why is
that? Well, it's exactly becauseof this because you will most
likely have used words that arethat are frightening them and
(14:34):
most people used and more ofthese words because they think
it was not enough. And that'seven worse. At the end people do
it but they do it without joy.
They don't break their footideas in they do not use the
whole brain because they justare not in it at all. So they do
it because they're paid forthat.
Dr. Leah OH (14:52):
Yeah. Yeah. And you can see the like you said the
cycle that continues. You didn'trespond to my leader. dictionary
words, first time, so I'm gonnathrow more leader dictionary
words at you. And it's, youknow, we can sit and smile and
laugh about this because we'renot in the situation at this
given moment. But you're right,when you're on the receiving
(15:13):
end, that's really frightening,and not recognizing to what that
means for your job for yourstability, and maybe even for
the project. So, thank you,that's so insightful. I really,
really love thinking about it inthat way. The other thing that I
was thinking about when you'retalking is relationships, again,
(15:37):
like you said, even relationshipwith self in relation to to
project and relationship tocertain goals and recognizing
the importance of relationshipsare not just external. That if
we don't have that kind ofshored up and that self
reflection, you know, oursuccesses are likely to be short
(15:58):
lived, even if we
Ulrike Seminati (16:01):
Yeah, exactly.
Thank
Dr. Leah OH (16:02):
you. So I this next question is one that I imagine
you hear often, and I imaginethis is a lot of times what
clients come to you with is thisidea of this is costing us time
this is costing us money, thisineffectiveness. So what do you
see what is the you know, thecost of ineffective time and
(16:25):
project management and teams,leaders and organizations.
Ulrike Seminati (16:30):
So it's hard to say, because I always try also
to find studies about this, andthree, how to find those who are
compelling, but the number thatI use often, and then everybody
can calculate for themselves.
But it seems that 70% ofbusiness mistakes made in
organizations are due to poorcommunication. 70%, you know, a
(16:50):
client that you lose a clientthat is delivered too late,
where you have to pay fees, forexample, an opportunity is
completely lost for a merger andacquisition or something like
that, whatever. They can be big,big deals, 70% of business
mistakes. And poor communicationis a vast topic, obviously. But
(17:11):
it's always about assuming thatpeople understand what you want
from them, and just assuming itwithout knowing. And that's what
we do. And this is poorcommunication. Because at the
end, people do not understand.
And people always, because justbecause they are informed, they
will not take action. So wealways make this conclusion that
(17:35):
when we inform somebody aboutthe why or about what we think
is the why, again, it's alwaysfrom our perspective, then
people will take actionautomatically, how could they do
something different? And at theend? No, they don't, because the
Y is not compelling for them.
And somebody else or something,something else is holding them
back from taking that action,maybe they have just very
(17:58):
different priorities, maybe theyhave a lot of fear. And this is
why they don't even go for somesome action they need to take
because they think oh, if I dothat I might be rejected, I
might fail in this typicalfears. We do not take this into
consideration. And this is how alot of opportunities, business
opportunities are lost. Andthat's what you see at the end
the bottom line results of anyorganization. And I think the
(18:20):
trick is really that you can'tcalculate it mathematically,
like you can calculate how muchless cash flow you have when you
have a high inventory, forexample. Yeah, that's, you can
calculate that. And these, and Idon't really like that term, the
so called soft skills can neverbe really measured. That's why
(18:41):
they're called like that, thatat the end, in my opinion, the
difference that they make on thebottom line result is much
higher, like you said, In thebeginning, we take more more
time or more care of digitalsystems, or have developing
processes and methods and all ofthat. And never really think
about the fact that all theseperfect processes methods need
(19:02):
to be at the end used by people.
And if you don't take action,well then fine to have a great
process. But if nobody appliesit nothing happened.
Dr. Leah OH (19:15):
Yeah, exactly anything like that. The way you
framed it, the why is notcompelling. Me or we've made
some assumptions thatrecognizing to kind of going
back to the audience analysis,like you said, step out of our
perspective and figuring outwhat we're asking people and how
this impacts them in very realways. And maybe gasp asked for
(19:39):
their opinion. i Oh my gosh. Sothank you that I have so many
things to think about. I'mreally enjoying this and I have
two two final questions for you.
So this first one is kind ofreflecting on either your
experiences in organizations ornot out in owning your
(19:59):
organization and consulting. Butif you had two leadership
lessons, so what are these twothat either kind of you've
learned and you continue toreturn to? Or alternatively,
what are some lessons that youwish the leaders you worked
with? Or served under? What doyou wish they knew?
Ulrike Seminati (20:20):
It comes back to what I said earlier on is
these two dimensions I and thewe. So focus really on yourself
first, take time for that.
Whenever Yeah, but it's soimportant. I wish that I was
more aware, when I was a leader.
(20:40):
And I wasn't I was more or lessstumbling successfully through
my career more or less driven,because I wanted to learn and
because I wanted to have aninteresting profile. And so yes,
I tried a lot of new things. Andthat was great. But I could have
standard really differently.
Because very often, I feltawkward, no imposter syndrome in
place, not confident enough. Buton the outside Everybody thought
(21:01):
I was. But I was certainly notauthentic. And I was losing a
lot of power, a lot of energy inthat a lot of worry and anxiety
behind the scenes in myself. AndI think many people have that.
And just the first thing isreally to understand, who am I?
How did I do I relate to my jobto what I have to do. And
(21:21):
admitting also the things thatdon't work? Well, when you're
not perfect to yourself, I mean,really admit things to yourself.
Many people shy away from that,when I speak to leaders, they
have all these also, this kindof fear as if they couldn't
function anymore operateanymore, as soon as they see
something which they don't likein themselves. And I think it's
really important to get awayfrom that. You can only win if
(21:44):
you look into yourself, really.
And you can only develop likewith any project, you can only
develop something where you areaware with other development
areas. And so help yourselfreally to get out of this
anxiety mode and out of thismode of oh, I just somehow do
things and I don't really feelbeing myself, oftentimes, by
(22:07):
understanding who you are, Ithink that's the biggest task.
Because when you have done that,and then comes to second step,
and that is really about lookingat others and creating just much
more awareness about theirreactions and learning to be
emotionally intelligent and moreempathetic. Learning to
understand what triggers them.
Some are similar to me for sure.
(22:30):
But some are totally different.
They have Why the heck are theyinterested in that? Or why are
they not reacting to thiswonderful thing that is said
Yeah. And, and seeing this issomething that you can then grow
and really work with that muchmore deliberately and address it
as well with people thedifferences and value the
difference is there's no good orbad profile. So I think it's
(22:52):
really about understanding whatwe always call diversity. And
we'd love to have that. That'sThat's it understanding, first
of all, who you are, who are theothers? And how can we value all
of that how we can bring thesevery different strengths
together to create synergies,instead of trying to push
everybody into the same leadershape of being a perfect growth
(23:13):
mindset that loves agility?
Because it's really an illusion.
Some people cannot be theanswer, even if they wanted to,
but they can't.
Dr. Leah OH (23:24):
Exactly yeah. Gosh, it's so, so helpful. It reminds
me of advice. When I firstbecame a faculty member, my
current my previous director,she took me to lunch. And she's
like, you're not teachingyourself. And I was like, okay,
and she's like, No, stop,listen, you don't have a
(23:45):
classroom full of Leah's. And ittook a minute to set in them.
And it's been so helpful sincebecause things before be like, I
don't understand why you didn'tturn this assignment. And of
course, I've always lovedschool. That's why I'm still in
a school. Right? This is aprofessor. So it is so helpful
(24:08):
to return to that advice. Andremember, I'm not serving my
students, well, if I think I'monly teaching to myself, because
I am missing their goals andtheir needs and all of the
things that make them them. AndI can see that parallel to this
advice that you're offering us.
And again, it's helped metremendously, very humbling, but
(24:30):
also really helpful. It's helpedme to be a much better faculty
member because of that. Great.
And so my last question for you.
So this the previous question wekind of talked about from a
leader perspective. We know wespend more of our time and
follow our roles and even whenwe are a CEO, we might have a
(24:53):
board of directors to answer to.
So we're we're employees allranks levels industries, in
terms of embracing the unknown,becoming more comfortable with
pivots, anything related toleadership and procrastination,
what advice do you have forthese friends?
Ulrike Seminati (25:16):
Find out what is really important for you. It
can be your values, but it canalso be just needs that you
have, you know, some people havea need for status and power.
Some others have a need forstability and security, or for
for very connected socialrelationships, or for exploring
(25:37):
new things, and to end havingadventures all the time. These
are four very different types ofprofiles. Now, what are your
needs? What do you really,really need at work and newly at
home as well. And when youunderstand that, then you can
help yourself to betterunderstand how you relate to the
tasks that you're given to goalsthat you set yourself even in
(25:59):
your private life. And askyourself like a marketing
person, what's in it for me?
What's in it for me? And what'sin it for you? is probably not
what's in the FAQ that comesmaybe from the top of your
organization? Yeah, it's mostlikely not because somebody has
written that out of theirperspective. But you have
something particular what's init for you. And if you see, wow,
(26:21):
there's this huge organizationalchange, let's use that example.
Because that is very often verycommon. And I don't know, I
don't know if I can stay in myteam, I don't even know if I
keep my job or whatever. And youare somebody who has a strong
need for security and stability,then you're really in trouble.
And that's what most people facearound out there most of the
(26:43):
time. And it's really importantto start reflecting and you need
to become a bit creative aroundwhat's in it for me in this one.
So okay, first of all, Iacknowledge I'm frightened for
sure. This is really scary tome, I acknowledge that it's not
a weakness, because I have otherstrengths and maybe super
reliable, so I have otherstrengths. But so what's in it
(27:04):
for me, ultimately, and veryoften in things that we don't
like or don't like to do, we cansee that right away. And it's
not exactly in the thing, youwill not find something in the
organization, the reorganizationor the change as such. But you
might something, find somethingthat is behind that, or a side
effects are really think out ofthe box, think broader. If
(27:26):
there's something in it for yousomething that fits your needs.
And especially when it comes tothings where you have a strong
resistance, but no choice, thendoing it, because you're paid
for that because it's your job,let's say that if it thinks you
can, you can change that and notdo well and take the deliberate
decision to be bold enough tosay no, but sometimes you can't.
(27:49):
But if you really, really can't,then it's about finding a
motivation for yourself that isoutside of the obvious
motivation that people expectfrom you. And you don't have to
say that to anyone what it is,it's very personal. It's really
for you give yourself thatstrength, that gift, that you
have something else you can youcan hook yourself on somehow.
And that gives you this this,yeah, this power and this not
(28:13):
enthusiasm, but at least acertain will, to execute on
certain tasks to take certainactions with a bit less
resistance than you would haveif you hadn't thought about it
at all. And I think this isimportant in today's world, when
it comes to inner balance to bea bit more mentally healthy as
well. And not to run into theseextremely stressful situations
(28:34):
that we might face mentallywithout reflecting on this.
Dr. Leah OH (28:39):
Yes. And in love in your response. It's this idea. I
think so often we in thesepositions, we can feel like
we're just kind of being tossedup, tossed along and bobbing
along waiting for the next waveto hit. But when we kind of spin
it, we acknowledge how we'retruly feeling and like you said,
we don't have to verbalize thisto anyone else. We acknowledge
(29:02):
that and then think about towhat's in it. For me. I think
that's something that manyemployees don't often give
themselves the luxury, I don'teven know if we should call it a
luxury, the benefit of lookingat because there's so often just
to do this and this and this, Imight be losing my job. I don't
know what this big changecoming. I'm gonna keep doing
(29:23):
this. But like you said, Ireally love how much that
empowers an employee to say, youknow, I'm going to shift this
way and I'm gonna have this newperspective. Or I didn't realize
this was in it for me, but nowthis is something that I can
keep, you know, working towardas we navigate the situation.
Ulrike Seminati (29:46):
You know, for example, and it's just, it's
just came to my mind becauseoften people you know, they do
that job also because they havea family and they feel like oh
my god, I have to stick to it. Ihave to go through all these.
Let's call it bad exposure.
against those who are forcedinto things, I'm really, really
stressed. It's horrible. It'shorrible. It's horrible. And
this is this is the carousel ofwords, chatterbox in our head
all the time. And instead ofdoing that, for example, you
(30:09):
could more deliberately shiftyour focus and say what's in it
for me is that I can spendoutside of that job quality time
with my children, that we canstill I don't know afford this
really beautiful garden. Andinstead of when you are in that
garden with your children, thenruminating about your child, how
horrible it is, rather say, Ican enjoy that. And I'm grateful
(30:32):
because I am delivering thatthrough what I'm doing. You
know, you give it a differentquality. You give you work, a
different quality, give it adifferent sense, not like the
fear of losing something. Butrather like this creates the
power of creating something inmy life. That's valuable for me
and lets me in completelyoutside of your role of your
dress
Dr. Leah OH (30:54):
in such a powerful and empowering mind shift.
Exactly. Yeah, thank you. I havetruly enjoyed this conversation.
I've learned so much. I cannotwait to integrate it into my
classes and to continue kind ofthinking about this as I do my
own research and discovery. Sothank you for being here with us
(31:17):
today.
Ulrike Seminati (31:17):
Yeah, thank you. It was great to be with
you, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (31:23):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. Lookingforward to chatting with you
again soon on the communicativeleader.
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