January 8, 2024 • 46 mins
Karen is the CEO of Eber Leadership Group, an organization that works with Fortune 500 companies on how they build their leaders, teams, and culture.
You all know we love to chat about leadership, teams, and culture on The Communicative Leader, but Karen takes us a step further to integrate storytelling.
Want your employees to:
- Connect with and more easily comprehend your messages
- Remember what you said
- Feel safe at work
If you answered yes to any of these, then my friends, this episode is for you!
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Karen Eber is a keynote speaker and chief
(00:02):
storyteller. Her talk onted.com. How your brain responds
to stories and why they'recrucial for leaders has almost 2
million views. As the CEO andchief storyteller of Eber
leadership group, Karen helpscompanies reimagine and evolve
how they build leaders andteams, transform culture and
(00:23):
tell stories. In her upcomingbook, the perfect story how to
tell stories that inform,influence and inspire. Karen
leverages the science ofstorytelling to create engaging
and immersive experiences. Inthis episode of the
communicative leader, Karenwalks us through the connection
between leadership andstorytelling.
(00:48):
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. Myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert,
and the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
So, Karen, thank you for joiningus today on the communicative
(01:10):
leader, you are an expert instorytelling. And what's more,
you nestle it and communicationand connected to leadership. And
I'm so excited to geek out withyou over these areas today. This
is going to be so fast, right?
Before we go into these ins andouts, can you give us a little
background on yourself and whatbrought you to this area?
Karen Eber (01:32):
Yeah, I have a company Eber leadership group
where we work with Fortune 500companies on how they're
building their leaders, teamsand culture. And I came to this
from the other side of the desk,working as a head of culture and
chief learning officer in abusiness in General Electric and
kind of leadership for part ofthe business and in Deloitte and
(01:54):
working at Hewlett Packard andso in, excuse me in those roles,
I was always trying to helppeople persuade people to make
investment in leaders and inteams and technology. And I
found that maybe one personcould say yes, and many people
could say no, and stories aresuch a helpful way in those
(02:15):
roles to persuade, and slow thenose. And so as I opened my
company and gave my TED talk,it's a space that we have leaned
into quite a bit. Yeah, what acool way to capitalize on all of
those experiences. Andlisteners, if you're not
familiar with some of theseother companies, I'm sure we've
(02:36):
heard the names. But thecultures of these companies are
phenomenal. These are thingsthat literally in classrooms, we
teach as best practice and agold standard. And I just love
that you get to bring that andcapitalize on that in a larger
way now. So Karen, we know yourbackground, this passion, I want
(02:56):
to hear a bit about yourpersonal view of storytelling.
And I think we've all we know atextbook definition, we have our
own ways of thinking ofstorytelling. But as this world
renowned expert, what should webe mindful of as it relates to
storytelling.
I like to think of storytelling.
As I heard, I heard a physiciansay this, in Doctors Without
(03:17):
Borders, he describesstorytelling as the basic unit
of human understanding. So it'snot just this dynamic way to
communicate, it really becomes afundamental way to exchange
information in a memorable way.
And I find that in businesssettings, we shy away from this
(03:41):
thinking I have to present judo,or I have to just do a
presentation because that's toosoft, or maybe people will lose
respect for me. But what we'rereally doing when we do that,
it's just wasting the mostprecious thing people can give
us which is their attention. Andwhen you start to incorporate
some of the science ofstorytelling and are mindful to
(04:03):
use it so that it does capturethe audience's attention, your
messages just have a betterimpact. They land more, they
land strongly and people aremore likely to take action and
remember them later. And so thefirst message is it's not a nice
to have or soft thing. The morethings become automated the
(04:25):
ability anyone has to helpconnect with people on a
personal level on an individuallevel is key.
Dr. Leah OH (04:34):
Being gold, yes.
And I love that idea of it beinga basic unit of human
connection. So if we even thinkabout the way that we raise
children and I kind of skippingahead, but if we take that
approach with our youngest andmost impressionable and use it
as a foundation for solidethics, morals, general
(04:54):
understanding, you're right.
It's kind of counterintuitive.
That, as adults, we tend toabandon it just kind of toss
that to the side. Excellent. SoKaren, I want to think about
your TED Talk. And in this talkis widely viewed. If you haven't
watched it yet, listeners, youneed to, like Karen talks about
(05:15):
storytelling is something thatis engaging and creates
immersive experiences. And whenI was preparing for this, I'm
like, Yes, I completely agree.
But I realize I don't have thelanguage necessarily, or the the
explanation to articulate that.
So we know it's powerful. Butcan you kind of talk to us about
(05:36):
that engagement in theimmersion?
Karen Eber (05:40):
Yeah, there's a couple of things that are
happening in the brain whensomeone is listening to a story
or reading it. And the first isthat you end up using just more
real estate of the brain. Sojust in a regular lecture or
meaning when someone's giving anupdate, a small walnut sized
part of the brain is activated,called Verna keys area. And this
(06:01):
is just pure languagecomprehension words go in your
brain says yes, we know them orno, we don't. And it's
understood. When you startlistening to a story, and you
are getting your senses engagedin your hearing more dynamic
descriptors, we go from thiswalnut size of the brain to
using almost the full spectrumof the brain. And so right away
(06:22):
real estate, you know, tells usmore is better. But more
importantly than that, a fewthings start to happen as we're
listening to a story. The firstis that the listeners brain or
the reader, their brain willlight up in the same activity as
the storytellers. So there werethese experiments where people
(06:43):
were taken into a MRI machine,they were shown an episode of a
BBC show, and their brainactivity was measured. And then
those same people were put backinto the MRI machine a second
time. And this time, they had torecount those episodes that they
saw, and their brain activitywas measured. And then the third
time new people went into theMRI machine, they listened to
(07:07):
the recording of the recountedepisode that the first person
had. So you had someone thatwatched it recounted it, and
then people that listen to therecounting. And what they found
across all three instances wasvery, very similar neural
activity. And this term neuralcoupling came up. It was from a
neuroscientist Yuri Hassan outof Princeton, which is
recognizing that we have a verysimilar pattern, we have this
(07:31):
mirrored activity, when we'relistening to stories, which
said, In simple terms, it makesstorytelling almost like this
artificial reality for theperson experiencing it. Because
your brain puts you in it. Thisis why we're watching the movie
and our heart is racing as JamesBond runs across a rooftop, even
when we're sitting in the chairnot moving.
(07:53):
But also, as someone tells astory, think of those moments
where you feel a wave ofGoosebumps or you feel of
anticipation or maybe even youryour eyes will up a little that
is because that when someone istelling a story that creates an
increase in empathy in thelistener, and that leads to an
increase in the bonding chemicaloxytocin. So oxytocin sends this
(08:18):
silent signal to the brain ofthis person feels safe to be
around, I feel a connectionaround. It's often a hormone for
mothers and babies. And youcan't fake it, you can't command
it, it's something that is atrue response to this moment,
the more oxytocin, an individualhas the larger increase in trust
(08:39):
that the person experiences forthe storyteller. So the very act
of a leader telling a story canlead to this neural chemical
shift, but also lead to thisincrease in trust. So if you
think of a off site, or maybe ateam retreat that you've been
on, and you come away, feeling alittle more bonded with the
people around you, it's becauseyou told these stories over
(09:03):
meals and had these moments ofbonding that are genuine and
true. And so neurologically, allof that is happening when we're
listening to a story and it'snot enough to tell one the way
you tell one is going to make adifference in the way someone
experiences it. Mm hmm. Gosh,there's so much important
content in there any I think forme the takeaways is an
(09:27):
organizational scholar. Youknow, psychological safety,
thankfully, is a huge concept.
Now that is widely talked about,because for decades and decades
and decades, we just overlookedthat right didn't didn't matter
wasn't relevant. But if we areable to literally
Dr. Leah OH (09:47):
up these these hormones that help people to
feel safe, and then we canrecognize how that is going to
kind of translate in thatpsychological safety, who have
recently done an episode onemployee voice and speaking up,
we can see how this can be areally lovely catalyst to
(10:07):
transforming a culture in a prosocial way. And you're smiling.
You're like, yeah, yeah. And Ilove that you do this. This is
phenomenal. Karen. Yeah. And Iand psychological safety is key
is the foundation for creatingany healthy work environment. I
am like you have I am so happy.
Karen Eber (10:25):
It's in the site Geist, because for years, people
heard the terms and pictures,couches and got really Yes, but
I talked to people about it isreally it's the energy of work,
because when psychologicalsafety isn't present, energy is
drained, trying to anticipatewhich version of the leader is
going to show up, which versionof the meeting do we have to
prepare for, the uncertainty isexpensive. And so that
(10:50):
eliminates met energy orcalories that can go to actually
getting the work done. Whenpsychological safety is present,
all of that energy goes to thework and you're not feeling as
depleted or, or drained fromwhat's happening. And so when
you tell a story, that doescreate this neural chemical
(11:11):
shift, and it does have oxytocinreleased in the listeners brain,
and that's the settle like thisperson is safe to be around.
It's a calorie savings, right?
You were getting this connectionand helping people feel
comfortable in a way that theymay not. Or if you're going
through a big organizationalchange that you need to do to
forge some of these things thatare really just draining
(11:32):
calories. Draining energy. Yeah.
And I like that that's a simpleequation, but powerful
uncertainty equals expensive.
And then we can look atexpensive, a number of different
perspectives. But I think whenwe reduce it to that, that is
the most tellingof ways to explain what
uncertainty does to individualsand to work into organizations.
(11:56):
Yeah, I want to give credit tothat to Dr. Lisa Feldman
Barrett, she's a neuroscientistout of Northeastern. She does a
lot. She has a wonderful bookabout emotions and how they're
made. But given the challengesin the world, today, you are
seeing her pop up and morecommon news day, regular
articles and stuff. And I thinkthat's a really powerful thing
(12:19):
of in a time of uncertainty.
Uncertainty is really expensive.
And it has a toll whether that'sin the world in life in work.
And so she's a great place todig into for for understanding
of all of that.
Dr. Leah OH (12:34):
Yeah, excellent. So Karen, I want to keep fangirling
over your TED talk for a fewminutes and integrate your book,
the perfect story, how to tellstories that inform, influence
and inspire. So when we think ofstories, I think for some
people, this is still maybe alittle bit abstract. Because we
we might think, stories, or hearstories and think about reading
(12:57):
with our children, or maybe whenwe were a child, but what are
other everyday ways that we seeor use storytelling.
Karen Eber (13:07):
Any possibility, there are stories that can
create a shift in energy, orthat can start to combined and
the most artificial ofcircumstances. So I share this
in the book I, you know, reallyearly in my career was at my
first business dinner. It's howI show up. I'm an introvert, by
(13:30):
the way, very key, the plot, Ishow up, you know, first
business dinner, it's to havedinner with different companies
that are thinking about workingtogether, and they wanted to
work with my company. So I'mlike, bracing myself for a sales
pitch. This already feelsincredibly awkward. And I have
no idea what to talk about. AndI show up and luck would have it
(13:52):
that the entire table was theintroverts of introverts.
Energy. And this table was onewhere you're looking around the
restaurant wishing you read anyof these other tables, because
they were so lively. And we werelike we are the awkward table.
It's like, you know, on the lastday of a helium balloon when
it's like sinking slowly to thefloat, that was our table. And
(14:14):
we're doing everything we can toavoid talking because no one
knows what to do. Becauseanytime we try to talk, it falls
flat. So we're, you know,drinking water or picking at our
food. And this one man at thetable says he clears his throat
and he says so. So I'm putting adeck on my house. And we all are
surprised and looking at himlike What is he talking about?
(14:36):
But also thank goodness someoneis talking Greek. What is this
deck for?
And so he starts describing howhe had to relocate this
woodpile, because he needed tobe able to put all the pilings
in place and he's on his secondpass stacking the wood in a
wheelbarrow and moving it to theedge of the yard. He takes a log
off the pile comes face to facewith a raccoon
(14:59):
He freezes, the raccoon freezes,their hands are both up there
under arrest. even funnier,because the raccoon has the
mass, right? So he's describingthis, he gets up. And he's like
demonstrating this. And we'reall laughing and watching, like,
what did you do? And he said, hetook a couple of steps back. And
so you tell us a story. And thetable completely shifted,
(15:22):
because then other people starttelling stories about unwanted
house guests. And we from thesilent table to the table
everyone was now looking at. Andso this was really artificial
setting, you're here for abusiness meeting, you don't know
each other. It's about sales.
You're all introverts, likerecipe for disaster, story
shifted our energy and allowedfor us to really start to enjoy
(15:43):
each other. And here's thething, the guy that told the
story, his name was Aaron. Itook his call every time after
that, because he felt like afriend. And he was willing to be
courageous in this moment andlead us to a different space.
And I don't know if we ever didwork together. But I was always
interested to talk to him. Andso the when to use storytelling
(16:05):
is is really when not to usestorytelling, which we can talk
about that. But it doesn't haveto be a presentation, or a TED
talk, or a big formal speech ora toast, it can be in these
moments where you just want toshift or you want to do
something different that canmake a big, dynamic experience.
Dr. Leah OH (16:25):
Yeah, and that's so powerful, because we all find
ourselves in these situationsthat are unexpected,
uncomfortable. For them. You'rethinking about stress, sweat and
stress, what we're there for,but you're right, using
storytelling, then again, goingback to that basic human
connection, unit of humanconnection. As we have rapport,
(16:49):
we have empathy, we're laughingtogether. And as you noted, that
that led to an open line ofcommunication. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,
that's phenomenal. Perfect,perfect story, Emily to
integrate that. Yeah. If theshort of it is there is always a
time for storytelling. The onlytime yeah, that's not to tell
(17:13):
story.
Karen Eber (17:15):
I will get the question. What story should we
tell for return the officeshouldn't when you have a
decision like that a policy andmake a date, don't dress it in a
story. Because the moment youdo, everyone listening is good
or reading, they're going todetect it, people, you're really
(17:36):
good at sniffing out what feelslike manipulation or that isn't
true. And the moment you dothat, you lose the trust of the
people around you. Instead,communicate them I always say
treat people like an adult, justcommunicate it. Use stories to
talk about the challenges in theorganization that you're
overcoming, and how you'repursuing the strategy or what
(17:58):
you've learned or failures. Butdon't use it to dress up
something because you thinkthere's like a perfect way to
tell this that people are goingto love just put yourself in the
place of if I heard this wrappedin a story when I'd feel like I
was being manipulated or what Ifeel like it's helpful. And
generally, policies regulations,just communicate them the rest
(18:19):
of the time you stories. Yep.
That makes perfect sense. Andlike you said, it's it's a gut
check. But we can also do aquick audience poll with others
and say, Is this how we'd wantto receive this message? And
like you said, it was probably aresounding no, just tell me what
I need to do. And why and when,and we're good. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (18:39):
So Karen, another thing I really enjoyed about
your book is it's rooted inneuroscience. And this is not
something that I have abackground in, but it was really
fascinating. And you talk aboutthese five factory settings of
the brain, and you relate themto creating messages and how we
communicate. So could you thisis a multi part question, but
(19:01):
kind of walk us through thesettings and kind of give us
some understanding of what's atplay in the background. So for
giving a talk seeking topersuade even working, you know,
messaging, they get kids toclean up or eat broccoli, not
killing one another, you know,how does this relate to our
brain and messaging,
Karen Eber (19:21):
the most underlying definition of the five factory
settings of the brain are thatit's not enough to tell a story,
the way you tell one is going tomake a difference. And there are
certain ways our brain naturallyresponds to communication and
stories. And I believe whenpeople can understand these they
recognize they have differentchoices to make when telling a
story, so that they can pulldifferent levers, they can make
(19:44):
choices of how they want to tella story. So they're a bit
involved. We'll do the lighterversion. What I'm going to do is
I'm going to tell the five andthen I'll talk through each one
and what the considerations are.
The first one is that your brainis lazy. The second is that it
makes assumptions. Since thethird is that it stores
experiences and memories intothis library of files. The
fourth is it sorts in, in andout groups it towards people and
(20:09):
experiences into in groups andout groups. And the fifth is
that it seeks pleasure and itavoids pain. So if we
can Yeah, we take the firstthree that your brain is lazy,
it makes assumptions and itsorts information into this
library of files. What thatmeans is the brain being lazy
this comes from some of thatresearch from from Dr. Lisa
(20:31):
Feldman Barrett. So think ofyour brain like a broker, number
one goal, keep your body alive.
And that's a combination ofrunning all the systems and you
know, keeping your body actuallyfunctioning. But it also is
helping make predictions for howdo I move my foot when I'm going
down stairs, because your brainis constantly making these
predictions, which is tied tothe second one around the
(20:53):
assumptions. Because the fasteryour brain makes predictions,
the faster it can conservecalories. The number one goal of
the brain is not to go bankruptof calories, it's to keep you
alive. So it's always going tobe trying to make these
decisions of where is it worthspending calories and where it
is in running your body isn't achoice, it knows it has to put
(21:14):
calories there. But where areyou paying attention to is a
choice. And so your brain won'tbe emerged, you're immersed all
the time, right? You're you'renaturally going to drift out and
a conversation and a meeting anda movie and a book. Because
that's natural, our brain kindof dips in and out to reflect
reset and to take a lightermoment. These are the nights you
(21:35):
come home, you're exhausted andyou put on the TV show that
you've binged or the movie thatyou've seen several times,
because you just don't want tothink that's your body saying,
look, let's conserve somecalories here. What that means
in a story is that you're goingto need to make the brand spend
calories, you're going to needto put in unexpected events or
build the tension or put inspecific details that makes the
(21:58):
brain hit a speed bump and say,Huh, because it can't make the
assumptions that it's trying tomix. This is how the first two
play together, right, the brainis always trying to hoard
calories, it's going tonaturally be making assumptions.
Because the faster it makes aprediction or an assumption, the
faster it can conserve calories.
So you want to disrupt it's,it's assumptions, we learn when
(22:23):
we get a prediction or anassumption wrong is called a
prediction error. So you want toput in things in that story that
are going to make the brain say,Oh, I didn't see that company
and see that coming. This is thejoke or the punch line, you're
like, Oh, I did not see that.
You feel it? Right? That's yourbrain being like, Alright, we're
gonna put a calorie to this.
(22:44):
Yeah. And those pair with thisidea that as we take in
information through our senses,they get stamped with emotions.
So it's almost like when youtake a photo on your phone, if
you swipe up, you can see thatstamped on that photo is the
location, the date, the F stopthe size of the photo, the
(23:04):
aperture, like everything isstamped on there without you
doing anything. Somethingsimilar happens when we're
taking in information throughour senses is we're experiencing
emotions. They these memories,these experiences get stamped
with emotions, and they getstored in our long term memory.
And these get put into what Icall the library of files. Is
(23:25):
this something we've alreadydone? And it's validating it is
this, you know, known andfamiliar, or is this related to
something we've done maybeslightly different? Or is this
brand new? Do we need a wholenew folder, the brain scans this
library of files,subconsciously, to make
predictions, all of ourunderstanding decisions,
(23:45):
assumptions, they're coming offof our experiences. So the three
of these played together,because you want to make the
brain spend calories, you wantto slow down assumptions. And
sometimes you want to connect towhat people know. Because they
immediately get an understandingof what you're trying to do in
the story. So when I say connectto what people know, I mean,
something likewhen the Cathedral of Notre DOM
(24:07):
was on fire, the new stations inthe US would show the location
they put up a map and show youthe cathedral and fire but then
they would show you the EiffelTower. For many people, when you
hear Paris, you think of theEiffel Tower. And so they're
trying to like anchor to whatyou know of oh, here's where it
is.
(24:27):
And it's just a subtle anchoringto what people know. Those
things can make a difference ina story and they become
different choices. And then thelast two factory settings play
together because we arenaturally seeking these in
groups and out groups and thisis where psychological safety
comes in as well. In groups ourideas, beliefs, individuals,
(24:48):
people that we share afamiliarity with, could even be
aspirations. Were more buyingsomething because of what we
want to become. That is a partof an in group
Wherever there's something thatis familiar and comfortable,
there's often psychologicalsafety and that of this feels
comfortable. And known.
outgroups are where we noticeour differences. And charities
(25:10):
do this, like when there's anatural disaster, and you hear
the story of one person who losttheir home is struggling to get
food, clothing, shelter, andyou're listening to this inside
your home with electricity andfood near you. And you recognize
how different your circumstancesare. So an outgroup isn't bad,
it's different and recognizingthat different. And when you're
(25:33):
telling a story, you have thischoice of am I trying to create
a story where people feel like amember of an in group or an out
group, or both, depending onwhat we're doing in this story.
The last is that at our mostsimple level, we seek pleasure
and avoid pain. So we have thecocktail of neural chemicals
that are dopamine,serotonin, andoxytocin that are released, and
(25:57):
in moments of reward,connection, bonding. And these
are the few good ones, these arethe goosebump ones and good
moments.
There are also neural chemicalslike adrenaline, norepinephrine,
cortisol that are released inmoments where we need to focus
where there's something notquite right. And the body's
(26:20):
saying, Pay attention. When welisten to stories, we experience
these shifts in neuralchemicals, depending on how
compelling the story is. And soyou want to be thinking about am
I telling a feel good story, ora story that brings story or am
I telling a story that isintentionally uncomfortable. So
all of these five, give you arange of things from how you're
(26:43):
making the brain, pay attentionand spend calories to either
lean into assumptions or slowthem to kind of leaning into
what is familiar for the personand how you can relate to them
that helped them connect toexperiences they've had to
whether they feel a member of anin group or an out group or
both, or even whether you'retelling an uncomfortable story
(27:03):
or not. And so these then get tothe way the story is told makes
a difference in the experience.
Dr. Leah OH (27:09):
Mm hmm. Yeah, that, thank you. Thank you for all of
that. I've learned so so much inthose couple moments. And I,
when you're walking us throughthat, I found myself going back
to the story you shared aboutthat business dinner. And I
guess kind of as a check, woulda prediction error, perhaps be
(27:32):
when Aaron said, Hey, I'mbuilding a deck? Would that be
the kind of moment thatdisrupted? It could be slow? So
we often hear prediction errorsaround like the body. So say,
you're going to stand up and youstumble? That's the brain saying
no, we didn't. We didn't sendthe right things down the right
pathway. We need to do thatdifferently next time. There is
(27:54):
still a version of this of weare making assumptions all the
time. So when someone startstalking or like, gosh, what is
Aaron going to talk about?
Karen Eber (28:03):
Get this? Oh, I didn't see that. Okay, you do
give me Nope, we were wrong. NowI want to pay attention so that
we can learn differently.
Dr. Leah OH (28:13):
And I was thinking too, and I'm not sure if this is
how it works. But when you'retalking about and I'm sure all
of these things happeninstantaneously in our brains.
But the in and out, I wasthinking about how we'll just
the act, the emergent act ofstorytelling can collectively
allow us to kind of them sort asa group into this in like
(28:34):
recognizing, like you said, Thisfeels good. We have these
hormones a sense of safety. Doyou see it kind of functioning
that way too? Or is it a littledifferent?
Unknown (28:46):
No, it does. You know, if you think of a job interview,
a job interview is a chance as acandidate to demonstrate where
you are a member of an in groupand where you are a member of an
out group. So you want todemonstrate where you're a
member of an in group where youare a great candidate for that
role. You've got the knowledge,the experience, you relate well
(29:07):
to the team, you're in addition,you're not, you know,
Karen Eber (29:12):
culture fit, you are bringing unique things to it.
And they can see that right,that is the this person feels
like they would bring wonderfulthings. And that's great. You
also though want to show whenyou're a member of an out group
where you have experiences thatthey don't have, and that's part
of this addition, you arebringing things that compliment
but don't compete in a way thatfeels like oh, this person would
(29:35):
never be successful here. Andboth are important in a job
interview because you want tomake sure you are helping them
really understand your value. Soin in a context like that you
can start to see it's importantto think about both and how am I
different and now how do I tellthat in a way that is welcoming
and exciting to theorganization? Yeah, I think
(29:57):
they're just anyway, we
Dr. Leah OH (30:00):
Look at storytelling the more time we
spend thinking about it, themore we recognize it's ever
present in such a helpfuldevice, a safety device, I don't
even know if devices the rightword, but like a powerful
element at play, and the moretime we spend thinking about it,
the more that we can lean intothat. Absolutely. Yeah, that's
(30:25):
so fascinating. So carrying thisnext question, we've kind of
touched on this. Because we'vejust spent a lot of time
thinking about the way the brainworks. And so what happens in
our brains when we listen tostories versus listening to just
information? Yeah,
Unknown (30:43):
it's a bit of what we touched on of that we're Nicky's
area where this walnut sizedpart of your brain, it's almost
like your brain has thislexicon. So I'm listening to you
talk when I'm listening to alecture in university or
someone's giving an update, ormaybe I'm even reading
something. And the brain issubconsciously comparing all of
(31:03):
those things that it is takingand processing to the lexicon.
And it's saying,
Karen Eber (31:08):
Do I Do I have an understanding of this? Yes or
no? Right? When it's no, weeither decide, well, let me
learn what that is, or I don'tknow it, we're just gonna move
on. Yep. That is, and we're notcommitting to memory, we're not
interacting with it in any way.
And so because we've just walkedthrough the five factory
settings of the brain, and Igave the example of Paris, and I
said, you know, the maps wereshowing the Cathedral of Notre
(31:33):
Dom, but also the Eiffel Tower,and now you're picturing the
Eiffel Tower in your head. Thatis part of what stories do just
by saying, the Cathedral ofNotre DOM on fire, your brain
probably pulls up some image ofthat, whatever that means to
you. Or when I mentioned theEiffel Tower, your brain does
that. I'm not asking you to doit, you're not even asking your
brain to do it. It's just doingit because of this library of
(31:55):
files. And because we makepredictions, it's almost like
your brain is going this one.
Oh, yeah, we know what that is.
Okay. And so it becomes so muchmore dynamic, because it's
giving me things to engage within a different way. And the more
you engage with it, the moreyou're going to think about it,
the more you're going to have itbe memorable, the more likely
you're going to take action onit. And so, from a attention
(32:17):
standpoint, alone, you know,attention is the biggest gift
that our audience can give us astory is gonna just make your
words have so much more weightand value.
Dr. Leah OH (32:33):
Yeah, and to just think that information and in
certainly, it's not to dismissthe importance of sometimes just
conveying policy procedure. Butfrom this kind of simple binary,
do I understand this? Do I notunderstand it? Maybe a follow
up? Do I need to learn more? Orcan I dismiss this to this very
vivid, engaging, like you said,dynamic picture that then is
(32:58):
making all of these otherconnections for us. I mean,
that's such a powerful way forus to consider these differences
in delivering, deliveringcontent.
Karen Eber (33:09):
And what happens, unfortunately, is that it is
really hard to be a leader. Now,the demands on your time are
extraordinary, because it's notjust delivering business
results, which that alone isenough.
You know, reading in this time,and making sure that you are
developing the skills likeempathy, and balancing empathy,
(33:31):
and accountability. And all ofthese things are new skills for
many people. And being able tobring the best out of every
individual some of these are arejust very different types of
skills. And the tendency whenthere's a presentation is that
we just don't leave ourselvesenough time to prepare. And so
(33:51):
there's no story to tell if youhaven't given yourself enough
time to think about what andtelling when in the moment can
can be uncomfortable untilyou've had some practice added.
I find most people spend maybe acouple hours working on the
slides they want to share andmaybe five minutes again about
what they want to say. And theproblem with that, is it no one
(34:12):
will remember what you said, noone is going to be really moved
or engaged by it and such amisstep that we do, because if
you really want to make surepeople are taking information
and making a decision having adiscussion taking action. You
need to be thoughtful about howyou're pulling that together.
And repurposing the time tothink about the best way to
(34:34):
really engage the audience anddo that is important. Yeah, and
even if it's just thinking thema flipping that usage of time
and spending the couple hoursconsidering what's the story,
what is the beginning, themiddle, the end, you know, what
are these key messages and thenmaybe just one or two slides,
maybe some image based slideswould be enough to background
(34:57):
right. Instead, reopen powerWell, you know, whatever our
favorite too is, when we startpicking slides as though we're
picking pieces of a quiltpatchwork that we're gonna put
together. Oh, I can use thisone, I can use this one. And
then you're piecing together.
Like, that's enough. But youhaven't stopped to think about
who am I talking to? What is itthat I want them to do? What are
the right messages for that? Andthen at the very end, what are
(35:20):
the visual aids including withdata, you know, we let the
content drive it. But by doingthat, we end up not
communicating anything. Mm hmm.
Yep, the aid becomes a crutchand taking away from the story.
No.
Dr. Leah OH (35:34):
So this next question, and you've kind of
already started to touch onthis, and I'm really interested
in your perspective, consideringyour experience and your your
organization now. But what doyou wish Karen more more of our
leaders or formal authority? Youknow, managers, directors will
be CEOs? What do you wish theyknew about the effects of
(35:57):
storytelling and the connectionbetween storytelling and
leadership?
Karen Eber (36:03):
I think you can't have one without the other. I
think that there are leadersthat are nervous to tell stories
because they don't want to sharepersonal information. And
storytelling is personal. 100%.
Storytelling is personal. Butpersonal doesn't mean Private.
Private are things that youdon't care to share with others.
(36:23):
Maybe that's things aboutyourself or your family. You
know, I have a very high privacybarrier, that I don't share
stories about my family. But Iwill gladly tell you stories
about mistakes that I made.
Because I want people to learn,I can use that as an anecdote.
And so your privacy barrier willbe different. Each person has a
(36:45):
different privacy barrier. Butevery story you tell his
personal, even if you're tellingsomeone else's story, because
you are making it personal, fromyour perspective, and why you
are the one telling it. And Ithink that that word personal
gets really intimidating toleaders who then think, well, I
don't want to get up and say themost personal thing ever, or be
(37:07):
extremely vulnerable. And theymiss that sharing your
perspective on the lateststrategy, or your perspective on
something that team did thatyou're proud of, you know, you
go in you, you go behind thescenes and share some of these
things. They go such a long wayand people feeling like you
trust them enough to share itwith them, and to creating a
(37:29):
community of psychologicalsafety. If you want to be a
great leader, you need toembrace storytelling, and you
need to practice getting to yourstyle of personal stories and
sharing things that are going toconnect with your your team.
I love that they're intertwinedand that they're indispensable
(37:53):
to one another.
Dr. Leah OH (37:55):
So Karen, I have two final questions for you. And
we always on the communicativeleader and we end thinking
really pragmatically aboutleadership or leadership
communication. So first, for ourformal leaders, we've kind of
talked about that already. Solet's think about employees all
ranks all industries? What, whatis going to be helpful for them?
(38:20):
Or maybe what can they start todo when they're interacting with
their own manager or their ownteams, in order to use
storytelling to be moreeffective persuasive
communicators?
Karen Eber (38:31):
Yeah, the trick of storytelling is it actually
isn't the story. It's theaudience, they are the stories
always start with the audience.
So this is true, whether you aregetting ready to give a
communication or communicationor tell a story, ground yourself
with these four questions.
Because every communicationsshould start here. You want to
(38:51):
think about who you're talkingto? And what is it that you want
them to come away thinking orfeeling. After you're done
sharing your story.
You want to and write out asentence for this. You want to
write out a sentence for what doyou want them to? To know or do
after. So part of it is thethinking and feeling the shift
(39:13):
the internal shift, and thenpart of it is the external
shift. And then you want tothink about where's their
mindset today? And what might bean obstacle. And this can be
done in five minutes before ameeting. But what you're really
trying to do is take a moment tothink about what is it that I'm
trying to do and who am I doingthis for and let me just take a
(39:33):
brief moment to try to get someMVP for like, who are they and
where are they at today? So ifyou're getting ready for a one
on one with your leader, andperfect timing here we are
coming up into some of your endactivities before things like
that. Take a moment and thinkabout like what do you want them
to come away feeling about youor thinking about you? Maybe
even give yourself a word thatyou want them to think of when
(39:57):
they think What do you want theto do, is there any any action
that you want them to do? Thinkabout that? What does that look
like? Where's their mindsettoday? And given all of those
things? And is there anythingthat could be an obstacle,
because when you get clarity onthose things, you can take a
communication or a story andmake sure you are telling it in
(40:19):
a way that you hit those things.
So the biggest piece ofstorytelling is it has
absolutely nothing to do withthe story. It always begins with
the audience.
Dr. Leah OH (40:27):
Yeah, I love that.
When you're saying these, it'smaking me think about servant
leadership. And this is a slighttwist. But you know, servant
leaders are essentially lookingto remove obstacles for others.
And that's, it sounds like inthis way, what really strong
storytellers can do and thinkingahead of time, who is my
audience? What are their needs?
(40:48):
What are my hopes, what arepossible obstacles or motivation
blocks that I need to be awareof, and recognizing that, as you
said, to me take a few minutesto reflect we don't need to
spend days for this. And I'msure the more we practice it,
the easier it gets. Butrecognizing that we can have a
much better outcome. And doingthis little bit of earlier
(41:13):
legwork.
Karen Eber (41:15):
You might not remove the obstacle, but the story is
going to help you navigate it orsee maybe even a completely
different path to go down. Yeah,yeah. And this last question,
again, you've left us a so manytips. And I'm wondering if
there's one tip for those whoare either striving for
management are currently in a isthere something that today they
(41:35):
can start doing to think abouthow they become better
storytellers. If he's trulylooking for an opportunity to
tell a story to recognize, noone is going to invite you to do
it, no one's going to say startthe meeting or a presentation or
your update with a story. No oneis going to say don't don't
share the data, tell us a story.
Find a moment, you're just goingto try telling a story and a one
(41:58):
on one and a meeting. Thinkabout what that is do it because
the thing about storytelling isit is compounding interest, and
telling a story it earns you theright to tell more stories, the
most intimidating thing is youhave to start. And so finding
what feels like a nonthreatening way or not
intimidating place to tell oneis key. And it's it really comes
(42:21):
down to like set an agreementwith yourself that you are going
to tell one story in the nextweek, and maybe just with a
coworker in a casual meeting.
But when you start looking foropportunities and you see them,
then you can start doing it moreand more and more. And the
stories then help shape yourleadership and shape how people
(42:41):
understand you. You know, anyonethat can open doors and help
people consider differentperspectives or a different path
are always greatly valued. Andit stories are such a great way
to do that. And if you are anintrovert and just naturally
speaking up in settings likethat doesn't feel comfortable.
Recognize that introverts havestorytelling as a superpower.
(43:05):
Because as you are reflectingyou sometimes notice details
that other people don't, whichmake for great opportunities to
pull that in and a thoughtfulmoment and help broaden an idea
or a discussion.
Dr. Leah OH (43:16):
Hmm, gosh, that's so so powerful. And I really
liked that idea, too, is wecan't wait for the invitation.
Karen Eber (43:26):
You're not gonna get called up on a stage or in a
meeting, you just queuespotlights. Let's say, not only
are you not going to get thatinvitation, you're probably
going to be told don't tell astory. Most of the time, when I
am working with clients, Irestart first. They make a list
of all these different timesthey've been told not to tell a
(43:46):
story. I'm like, hey, put thatlist aside, let's go. And they
find an opportunity to tell onewhere they weren't invited. And
they were told not to tell oneand 100% of the time, it is
always worked out wonderfully.
So just ignore the discouragingmoments and find a place to do
it. Yep. Anything to for thosefolks. Because like you said, I
(44:07):
think so many statistics rule inbusiness still, you know, that's
just where we are. Now, I thinkwe're seeing that shift. You
probably know that better thananyone. But I think that when
you tell the story, and you keeptelling stories and finding
those moments, people areactually going to remember your
statistics and data better, moreaccurately, perhaps when it is
(44:29):
attached to these other things.
And it might open up moreopportunities for people to,
like you said, look at you forleadership and your perspective.
Yeah, and even more thanremembering the data. They're
gonna remember the idea aroundthe data, because data about
people and things and projectsand what we want to do about it.
(44:51):
And so that's what you reallywant, you know, data ever speaks
for itself because we all makeassumptions and our brains are
making these predictions basedon Our experiences, all of our
experiences are different. Sowhen you aren't taking people
through that, you're riskingpeople making their own
assumptions. And they're alldifferent and we don't know. But
when you can take people throughthat story, you're getting
(45:12):
everyone to a common place fordiscussion and come away
remembering the same things.
Dr. Leah OH (45:19):
Karen, thank you.
I've had so much fun. I'velearned so much. I know I'm
going to be returning to thisconversation many times and I
want to thank you again forsharing your experience, your
time and your expertise with us.
Karen Eber (45:33):
Thank you for having me. Such a fun conversation.
Dr. Leah OH (45:37):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. I'mlooking forward to chatting with
you again soon on thecommunicative leader.
Karen Eber is a keynote speaker and chief
(00:02):
storyteller. Her talk onted.com. How your brain responds
to stories and why they'recrucial for leaders has almost 2
million views. As the CEO andchief storyteller of Eber
leadership group, Karen helpscompanies reimagine and evolve
how they build leaders andteams, transform culture and
(00:23):
tell stories. In her upcomingbook, the perfect story how to
tell stories that inform,influence and inspire. Karen
leverages the science ofstorytelling to create engaging
and immersive experiences. Inthis episode of the
communicative leader, Karenwalks us through the connection
between leadership andstorytelling.
(00:48):
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. Myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert,
and the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
So, Karen, thank you for joiningus today on the communicative
(01:10):
leader, you are an expert instorytelling. And what's more,
you nestle it and communicationand connected to leadership. And
I'm so excited to geek out withyou over these areas today. This
is going to be so fast, right?
Before we go into these ins andouts, can you give us a little
background on yourself and whatbrought you to this area?
Karen Eber (01:32):
Yeah, I have a company Eber leadership group
where we work with Fortune 500companies on how they're
building their leaders, teamsand culture. And I came to this
from the other side of the desk,working as a head of culture and
chief learning officer in abusiness in General Electric and
kind of leadership for part ofthe business and in Deloitte and
(01:54):
working at Hewlett Packard andso in, excuse me in those roles,
I was always trying to helppeople persuade people to make
investment in leaders and inteams and technology. And I
found that maybe one personcould say yes, and many people
could say no, and stories aresuch a helpful way in those
(02:15):
roles to persuade, and slow thenose. And so as I opened my
company and gave my TED talk,it's a space that we have leaned
into quite a bit. Yeah, what acool way to capitalize on all of
those experiences. Andlisteners, if you're not
familiar with some of theseother companies, I'm sure we've
(02:36):
heard the names. But thecultures of these companies are
phenomenal. These are thingsthat literally in classrooms, we
teach as best practice and agold standard. And I just love
that you get to bring that andcapitalize on that in a larger
way now. So Karen, we know yourbackground, this passion, I want
(02:56):
to hear a bit about yourpersonal view of storytelling.
And I think we've all we know atextbook definition, we have our
own ways of thinking ofstorytelling. But as this world
renowned expert, what should webe mindful of as it relates to
storytelling.
I like to think of storytelling.
As I heard, I heard a physiciansay this, in Doctors Without
(03:17):
Borders, he describesstorytelling as the basic unit
of human understanding. So it'snot just this dynamic way to
communicate, it really becomes afundamental way to exchange
information in a memorable way.
And I find that in businesssettings, we shy away from this
(03:41):
thinking I have to present judo,or I have to just do a
presentation because that's toosoft, or maybe people will lose
respect for me. But what we'rereally doing when we do that,
it's just wasting the mostprecious thing people can give
us which is their attention. Andwhen you start to incorporate
some of the science ofstorytelling and are mindful to
(04:03):
use it so that it does capturethe audience's attention, your
messages just have a betterimpact. They land more, they
land strongly and people aremore likely to take action and
remember them later. And so thefirst message is it's not a nice
to have or soft thing. The morethings become automated the
(04:25):
ability anyone has to helpconnect with people on a
personal level on an individuallevel is key.
Dr. Leah OH (04:34):
Being gold, yes.
And I love that idea of it beinga basic unit of human
connection. So if we even thinkabout the way that we raise
children and I kind of skippingahead, but if we take that
approach with our youngest andmost impressionable and use it
as a foundation for solidethics, morals, general
(04:54):
understanding, you're right.
It's kind of counterintuitive.
That, as adults, we tend toabandon it just kind of toss
that to the side. Excellent. SoKaren, I want to think about
your TED Talk. And in this talkis widely viewed. If you haven't
watched it yet, listeners, youneed to, like Karen talks about
(05:15):
storytelling is something thatis engaging and creates
immersive experiences. And whenI was preparing for this, I'm
like, Yes, I completely agree.
But I realize I don't have thelanguage necessarily, or the the
explanation to articulate that.
So we know it's powerful. Butcan you kind of talk to us about
(05:36):
that engagement in theimmersion?
Karen Eber (05:40):
Yeah, there's a couple of things that are
happening in the brain whensomeone is listening to a story
or reading it. And the first isthat you end up using just more
real estate of the brain. Sojust in a regular lecture or
meaning when someone's giving anupdate, a small walnut sized
part of the brain is activated,called Verna keys area. And this
(06:01):
is just pure languagecomprehension words go in your
brain says yes, we know them orno, we don't. And it's
understood. When you startlistening to a story, and you
are getting your senses engagedin your hearing more dynamic
descriptors, we go from thiswalnut size of the brain to
using almost the full spectrumof the brain. And so right away
(06:22):
real estate, you know, tells usmore is better. But more
importantly than that, a fewthings start to happen as we're
listening to a story. The firstis that the listeners brain or
the reader, their brain willlight up in the same activity as
the storytellers. So there werethese experiments where people
(06:43):
were taken into a MRI machine,they were shown an episode of a
BBC show, and their brainactivity was measured. And then
those same people were put backinto the MRI machine a second
time. And this time, they had torecount those episodes that they
saw, and their brain activitywas measured. And then the third
time new people went into theMRI machine, they listened to
(07:07):
the recording of the recountedepisode that the first person
had. So you had someone thatwatched it recounted it, and
then people that listen to therecounting. And what they found
across all three instances wasvery, very similar neural
activity. And this term neuralcoupling came up. It was from a
neuroscientist Yuri Hassan outof Princeton, which is
recognizing that we have a verysimilar pattern, we have this
(07:31):
mirrored activity, when we'relistening to stories, which
said, In simple terms, it makesstorytelling almost like this
artificial reality for theperson experiencing it. Because
your brain puts you in it. Thisis why we're watching the movie
and our heart is racing as JamesBond runs across a rooftop, even
when we're sitting in the chairnot moving.
(07:53):
But also, as someone tells astory, think of those moments
where you feel a wave ofGoosebumps or you feel of
anticipation or maybe even youryour eyes will up a little that
is because that when someone istelling a story that creates an
increase in empathy in thelistener, and that leads to an
increase in the bonding chemicaloxytocin. So oxytocin sends this
(08:18):
silent signal to the brain ofthis person feels safe to be
around, I feel a connectionaround. It's often a hormone for
mothers and babies. And youcan't fake it, you can't command
it, it's something that is atrue response to this moment,
the more oxytocin, an individualhas the larger increase in trust
(08:39):
that the person experiences forthe storyteller. So the very act
of a leader telling a story canlead to this neural chemical
shift, but also lead to thisincrease in trust. So if you
think of a off site, or maybe ateam retreat that you've been
on, and you come away, feeling alittle more bonded with the
people around you, it's becauseyou told these stories over
(09:03):
meals and had these moments ofbonding that are genuine and
true. And so neurologically, allof that is happening when we're
listening to a story and it'snot enough to tell one the way
you tell one is going to make adifference in the way someone
experiences it. Mm hmm. Gosh,there's so much important
content in there any I think forme the takeaways is an
(09:27):
organizational scholar. Youknow, psychological safety,
thankfully, is a huge concept.
Now that is widely talked about,because for decades and decades
and decades, we just overlookedthat right didn't didn't matter
wasn't relevant. But if we areable to literally
Dr. Leah OH (09:47):
up these these hormones that help people to
feel safe, and then we canrecognize how that is going to
kind of translate in thatpsychological safety, who have
recently done an episode onemployee voice and speaking up,
we can see how this can be areally lovely catalyst to
(10:07):
transforming a culture in a prosocial way. And you're smiling.
You're like, yeah, yeah. And Ilove that you do this. This is
phenomenal. Karen. Yeah. And Iand psychological safety is key
is the foundation for creatingany healthy work environment. I
am like you have I am so happy.
Karen Eber (10:25):
It's in the site Geist, because for years, people
heard the terms and pictures,couches and got really Yes, but
I talked to people about it isreally it's the energy of work,
because when psychologicalsafety isn't present, energy is
drained, trying to anticipatewhich version of the leader is
going to show up, which versionof the meeting do we have to
prepare for, the uncertainty isexpensive. And so that
(10:50):
eliminates met energy orcalories that can go to actually
getting the work done. Whenpsychological safety is present,
all of that energy goes to thework and you're not feeling as
depleted or, or drained fromwhat's happening. And so when
you tell a story, that doescreate this neural chemical
(11:11):
shift, and it does have oxytocinreleased in the listeners brain,
and that's the settle like thisperson is safe to be around.
It's a calorie savings, right?
You were getting this connectionand helping people feel
comfortable in a way that theymay not. Or if you're going
through a big organizationalchange that you need to do to
forge some of these things thatare really just draining
(11:32):
calories. Draining energy. Yeah.
And I like that that's a simpleequation, but powerful
uncertainty equals expensive.
And then we can look atexpensive, a number of different
perspectives. But I think whenwe reduce it to that, that is
the most tellingof ways to explain what
uncertainty does to individualsand to work into organizations.
(11:56):
Yeah, I want to give credit tothat to Dr. Lisa Feldman
Barrett, she's a neuroscientistout of Northeastern. She does a
lot. She has a wonderful bookabout emotions and how they're
made. But given the challengesin the world, today, you are
seeing her pop up and morecommon news day, regular
articles and stuff. And I thinkthat's a really powerful thing
(12:19):
of in a time of uncertainty.
Uncertainty is really expensive.
And it has a toll whether that'sin the world in life in work.
And so she's a great place todig into for for understanding
of all of that.
Dr. Leah OH (12:34):
Yeah, excellent. So Karen, I want to keep fangirling
over your TED talk for a fewminutes and integrate your book,
the perfect story, how to tellstories that inform, influence
and inspire. So when we think ofstories, I think for some
people, this is still maybe alittle bit abstract. Because we
we might think, stories, or hearstories and think about reading
(12:57):
with our children, or maybe whenwe were a child, but what are
other everyday ways that we seeor use storytelling.
Karen Eber (13:07):
Any possibility, there are stories that can
create a shift in energy, orthat can start to combined and
the most artificial ofcircumstances. So I share this
in the book I, you know, reallyearly in my career was at my
first business dinner. It's howI show up. I'm an introvert, by
(13:30):
the way, very key, the plot, Ishow up, you know, first
business dinner, it's to havedinner with different companies
that are thinking about workingtogether, and they wanted to
work with my company. So I'mlike, bracing myself for a sales
pitch. This already feelsincredibly awkward. And I have
no idea what to talk about. AndI show up and luck would have it
(13:52):
that the entire table was theintroverts of introverts.
Energy. And this table was onewhere you're looking around the
restaurant wishing you read anyof these other tables, because
they were so lively. And we werelike we are the awkward table.
It's like, you know, on the lastday of a helium balloon when
it's like sinking slowly to thefloat, that was our table. And
(14:14):
we're doing everything we can toavoid talking because no one
knows what to do. Becauseanytime we try to talk, it falls
flat. So we're, you know,drinking water or picking at our
food. And this one man at thetable says he clears his throat
and he says so. So I'm putting adeck on my house. And we all are
surprised and looking at himlike What is he talking about?
(14:36):
But also thank goodness someoneis talking Greek. What is this
deck for?
And so he starts describing howhe had to relocate this
woodpile, because he needed tobe able to put all the pilings
in place and he's on his secondpass stacking the wood in a
wheelbarrow and moving it to theedge of the yard. He takes a log
off the pile comes face to facewith a raccoon
(14:59):
He freezes, the raccoon freezes,their hands are both up there
under arrest. even funnier,because the raccoon has the
mass, right? So he's describingthis, he gets up. And he's like
demonstrating this. And we'reall laughing and watching, like,
what did you do? And he said, hetook a couple of steps back. And
so you tell us a story. And thetable completely shifted,
(15:22):
because then other people starttelling stories about unwanted
house guests. And we from thesilent table to the table
everyone was now looking at. Andso this was really artificial
setting, you're here for abusiness meeting, you don't know
each other. It's about sales.
You're all introverts, likerecipe for disaster, story
shifted our energy and allowedfor us to really start to enjoy
(15:43):
each other. And here's thething, the guy that told the
story, his name was Aaron. Itook his call every time after
that, because he felt like afriend. And he was willing to be
courageous in this moment andlead us to a different space.
And I don't know if we ever didwork together. But I was always
interested to talk to him. Andso the when to use storytelling
(16:05):
is is really when not to usestorytelling, which we can talk
about that. But it doesn't haveto be a presentation, or a TED
talk, or a big formal speech ora toast, it can be in these
moments where you just want toshift or you want to do
something different that canmake a big, dynamic experience.
Dr. Leah OH (16:25):
Yeah, and that's so powerful, because we all find
ourselves in these situationsthat are unexpected,
uncomfortable. For them. You'rethinking about stress, sweat and
stress, what we're there for,but you're right, using
storytelling, then again, goingback to that basic human
connection, unit of humanconnection. As we have rapport,
(16:49):
we have empathy, we're laughingtogether. And as you noted, that
that led to an open line ofcommunication. Yeah. Yeah. Oh,
that's phenomenal. Perfect,perfect story, Emily to
integrate that. Yeah. If theshort of it is there is always a
time for storytelling. The onlytime yeah, that's not to tell
(17:13):
story.
Karen Eber (17:15):
I will get the question. What story should we
tell for return the officeshouldn't when you have a
decision like that a policy andmake a date, don't dress it in a
story. Because the moment youdo, everyone listening is good
or reading, they're going todetect it, people, you're really
(17:36):
good at sniffing out what feelslike manipulation or that isn't
true. And the moment you dothat, you lose the trust of the
people around you. Instead,communicate them I always say
treat people like an adult, justcommunicate it. Use stories to
talk about the challenges in theorganization that you're
overcoming, and how you'repursuing the strategy or what
(17:58):
you've learned or failures. Butdon't use it to dress up
something because you thinkthere's like a perfect way to
tell this that people are goingto love just put yourself in the
place of if I heard this wrappedin a story when I'd feel like I
was being manipulated or what Ifeel like it's helpful. And
generally, policies regulations,just communicate them the rest
(18:19):
of the time you stories. Yep.
That makes perfect sense. Andlike you said, it's it's a gut
check. But we can also do aquick audience poll with others
and say, Is this how we'd wantto receive this message? And
like you said, it was probably aresounding no, just tell me what
I need to do. And why and when,and we're good. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (18:39):
So Karen, another thing I really enjoyed about
your book is it's rooted inneuroscience. And this is not
something that I have abackground in, but it was really
fascinating. And you talk aboutthese five factory settings of
the brain, and you relate themto creating messages and how we
communicate. So could you thisis a multi part question, but
(19:01):
kind of walk us through thesettings and kind of give us
some understanding of what's atplay in the background. So for
giving a talk seeking topersuade even working, you know,
messaging, they get kids toclean up or eat broccoli, not
killing one another, you know,how does this relate to our
brain and messaging,
Karen Eber (19:21):
the most underlying definition of the five factory
settings of the brain are thatit's not enough to tell a story,
the way you tell one is going tomake a difference. And there are
certain ways our brain naturallyresponds to communication and
stories. And I believe whenpeople can understand these they
recognize they have differentchoices to make when telling a
story, so that they can pulldifferent levers, they can make
(19:44):
choices of how they want to tella story. So they're a bit
involved. We'll do the lighterversion. What I'm going to do is
I'm going to tell the five andthen I'll talk through each one
and what the considerations are.
The first one is that your brainis lazy. The second is that it
makes assumptions. Since thethird is that it stores
experiences and memories intothis library of files. The
fourth is it sorts in, in andout groups it towards people and
(20:09):
experiences into in groups andout groups. And the fifth is
that it seeks pleasure and itavoids pain. So if we
can Yeah, we take the firstthree that your brain is lazy,
it makes assumptions and itsorts information into this
library of files. What thatmeans is the brain being lazy
this comes from some of thatresearch from from Dr. Lisa
(20:31):
Feldman Barrett. So think ofyour brain like a broker, number
one goal, keep your body alive.
And that's a combination ofrunning all the systems and you
know, keeping your body actuallyfunctioning. But it also is
helping make predictions for howdo I move my foot when I'm going
down stairs, because your brainis constantly making these
predictions, which is tied tothe second one around the
(20:53):
assumptions. Because the fasteryour brain makes predictions,
the faster it can conservecalories. The number one goal of
the brain is not to go bankruptof calories, it's to keep you
alive. So it's always going tobe trying to make these
decisions of where is it worthspending calories and where it
is in running your body isn't achoice, it knows it has to put
(21:14):
calories there. But where areyou paying attention to is a
choice. And so your brain won'tbe emerged, you're immersed all
the time, right? You're you'renaturally going to drift out and
a conversation and a meeting anda movie and a book. Because
that's natural, our brain kindof dips in and out to reflect
reset and to take a lightermoment. These are the nights you
(21:35):
come home, you're exhausted andyou put on the TV show that
you've binged or the movie thatyou've seen several times,
because you just don't want tothink that's your body saying,
look, let's conserve somecalories here. What that means
in a story is that you're goingto need to make the brand spend
calories, you're going to needto put in unexpected events or
build the tension or put inspecific details that makes the
(21:58):
brain hit a speed bump and say,Huh, because it can't make the
assumptions that it's trying tomix. This is how the first two
play together, right, the brainis always trying to hoard
calories, it's going tonaturally be making assumptions.
Because the faster it makes aprediction or an assumption, the
faster it can conserve calories.
So you want to disrupt it's,it's assumptions, we learn when
(22:23):
we get a prediction or anassumption wrong is called a
prediction error. So you want toput in things in that story that
are going to make the brain say,Oh, I didn't see that company
and see that coming. This is thejoke or the punch line, you're
like, Oh, I did not see that.
You feel it? Right? That's yourbrain being like, Alright, we're
gonna put a calorie to this.
(22:44):
Yeah. And those pair with thisidea that as we take in
information through our senses,they get stamped with emotions.
So it's almost like when youtake a photo on your phone, if
you swipe up, you can see thatstamped on that photo is the
location, the date, the F stopthe size of the photo, the
(23:04):
aperture, like everything isstamped on there without you
doing anything. Somethingsimilar happens when we're
taking in information throughour senses is we're experiencing
emotions. They these memories,these experiences get stamped
with emotions, and they getstored in our long term memory.
And these get put into what Icall the library of files. Is
(23:25):
this something we've alreadydone? And it's validating it is
this, you know, known andfamiliar, or is this related to
something we've done maybeslightly different? Or is this
brand new? Do we need a wholenew folder, the brain scans this
library of files,subconsciously, to make
predictions, all of ourunderstanding decisions,
(23:45):
assumptions, they're coming offof our experiences. So the three
of these played together,because you want to make the
brain spend calories, you wantto slow down assumptions. And
sometimes you want to connect towhat people know. Because they
immediately get an understandingof what you're trying to do in
the story. So when I say connectto what people know, I mean,
something likewhen the Cathedral of Notre DOM
(24:07):
was on fire, the new stations inthe US would show the location
they put up a map and show youthe cathedral and fire but then
they would show you the EiffelTower. For many people, when you
hear Paris, you think of theEiffel Tower. And so they're
trying to like anchor to whatyou know of oh, here's where it
is.
(24:27):
And it's just a subtle anchoringto what people know. Those
things can make a difference ina story and they become
different choices. And then thelast two factory settings play
together because we arenaturally seeking these in
groups and out groups and thisis where psychological safety
comes in as well. In groups ourideas, beliefs, individuals,
(24:48):
people that we share afamiliarity with, could even be
aspirations. Were more buyingsomething because of what we
want to become. That is a partof an in group
Wherever there's something thatis familiar and comfortable,
there's often psychologicalsafety and that of this feels
comfortable. And known.
outgroups are where we noticeour differences. And charities
(25:10):
do this, like when there's anatural disaster, and you hear
the story of one person who losttheir home is struggling to get
food, clothing, shelter, andyou're listening to this inside
your home with electricity andfood near you. And you recognize
how different your circumstancesare. So an outgroup isn't bad,
it's different and recognizingthat different. And when you're
(25:33):
telling a story, you have thischoice of am I trying to create
a story where people feel like amember of an in group or an out
group, or both, depending onwhat we're doing in this story.
The last is that at our mostsimple level, we seek pleasure
and avoid pain. So we have thecocktail of neural chemicals
that are dopamine,serotonin, andoxytocin that are released, and
(25:57):
in moments of reward,connection, bonding. And these
are the few good ones, these arethe goosebump ones and good
moments.
There are also neural chemicalslike adrenaline, norepinephrine,
cortisol that are released inmoments where we need to focus
where there's something notquite right. And the body's
(26:20):
saying, Pay attention. When welisten to stories, we experience
these shifts in neuralchemicals, depending on how
compelling the story is. And soyou want to be thinking about am
I telling a feel good story, ora story that brings story or am
I telling a story that isintentionally uncomfortable. So
all of these five, give you arange of things from how you're
(26:43):
making the brain, pay attentionand spend calories to either
lean into assumptions or slowthem to kind of leaning into
what is familiar for the personand how you can relate to them
that helped them connect toexperiences they've had to
whether they feel a member of anin group or an out group or
both, or even whether you'retelling an uncomfortable story
(27:03):
or not. And so these then get tothe way the story is told makes
a difference in the experience.
Dr. Leah OH (27:09):
Mm hmm. Yeah, that, thank you. Thank you for all of
that. I've learned so so much inthose couple moments. And I,
when you're walking us throughthat, I found myself going back
to the story you shared aboutthat business dinner. And I
guess kind of as a check, woulda prediction error, perhaps be
(27:32):
when Aaron said, Hey, I'mbuilding a deck? Would that be
the kind of moment thatdisrupted? It could be slow? So
we often hear prediction errorsaround like the body. So say,
you're going to stand up and youstumble? That's the brain saying
no, we didn't. We didn't sendthe right things down the right
pathway. We need to do thatdifferently next time. There is
(27:54):
still a version of this of weare making assumptions all the
time. So when someone startstalking or like, gosh, what is
Aaron going to talk about?
Karen Eber (28:03):
Get this? Oh, I didn't see that. Okay, you do
give me Nope, we were wrong. NowI want to pay attention so that
we can learn differently.
Dr. Leah OH (28:13):
And I was thinking too, and I'm not sure if this is
how it works. But when you'retalking about and I'm sure all
of these things happeninstantaneously in our brains.
But the in and out, I wasthinking about how we'll just
the act, the emergent act ofstorytelling can collectively
allow us to kind of them sort asa group into this in like
(28:34):
recognizing, like you said, Thisfeels good. We have these
hormones a sense of safety. Doyou see it kind of functioning
that way too? Or is it a littledifferent?
Unknown (28:46):
No, it does. You know, if you think of a job interview,
a job interview is a chance as acandidate to demonstrate where
you are a member of an in groupand where you are a member of an
out group. So you want todemonstrate where you're a
member of an in group where youare a great candidate for that
role. You've got the knowledge,the experience, you relate well
(29:07):
to the team, you're in addition,you're not, you know,
Karen Eber (29:12):
culture fit, you are bringing unique things to it.
And they can see that right,that is the this person feels
like they would bring wonderfulthings. And that's great. You
also though want to show whenyou're a member of an out group
where you have experiences thatthey don't have, and that's part
of this addition, you arebringing things that compliment
but don't compete in a way thatfeels like oh, this person would
(29:35):
never be successful here. Andboth are important in a job
interview because you want tomake sure you are helping them
really understand your value. Soin in a context like that you
can start to see it's importantto think about both and how am I
different and now how do I tellthat in a way that is welcoming
and exciting to theorganization? Yeah, I think
(29:57):
they're just anyway, we
Dr. Leah OH (30:00):
Look at storytelling the more time we
spend thinking about it, themore we recognize it's ever
present in such a helpfuldevice, a safety device, I don't
even know if devices the rightword, but like a powerful
element at play, and the moretime we spend thinking about it,
the more that we can lean intothat. Absolutely. Yeah, that's
(30:25):
so fascinating. So carrying thisnext question, we've kind of
touched on this. Because we'vejust spent a lot of time
thinking about the way the brainworks. And so what happens in
our brains when we listen tostories versus listening to just
information? Yeah,
Unknown (30:43):
it's a bit of what we touched on of that we're Nicky's
area where this walnut sizedpart of your brain, it's almost
like your brain has thislexicon. So I'm listening to you
talk when I'm listening to alecture in university or
someone's giving an update, ormaybe I'm even reading
something. And the brain issubconsciously comparing all of
(31:03):
those things that it is takingand processing to the lexicon.
And it's saying,
Karen Eber (31:08):
Do I Do I have an understanding of this? Yes or
no? Right? When it's no, weeither decide, well, let me
learn what that is, or I don'tknow it, we're just gonna move
on. Yep. That is, and we're notcommitting to memory, we're not
interacting with it in any way.
And so because we've just walkedthrough the five factory
settings of the brain, and Igave the example of Paris, and I
said, you know, the maps wereshowing the Cathedral of Notre
(31:33):
Dom, but also the Eiffel Tower,and now you're picturing the
Eiffel Tower in your head. Thatis part of what stories do just
by saying, the Cathedral ofNotre DOM on fire, your brain
probably pulls up some image ofthat, whatever that means to
you. Or when I mentioned theEiffel Tower, your brain does
that. I'm not asking you to doit, you're not even asking your
brain to do it. It's just doingit because of this library of
(31:55):
files. And because we makepredictions, it's almost like
your brain is going this one.
Oh, yeah, we know what that is.
Okay. And so it becomes so muchmore dynamic, because it's
giving me things to engage within a different way. And the more
you engage with it, the moreyou're going to think about it,
the more you're going to have itbe memorable, the more likely
you're going to take action onit. And so, from a attention
(32:17):
standpoint, alone, you know,attention is the biggest gift
that our audience can give us astory is gonna just make your
words have so much more weightand value.
Dr. Leah OH (32:33):
Yeah, and to just think that information and in
certainly, it's not to dismissthe importance of sometimes just
conveying policy procedure. Butfrom this kind of simple binary,
do I understand this? Do I notunderstand it? Maybe a follow
up? Do I need to learn more? Orcan I dismiss this to this very
vivid, engaging, like you said,dynamic picture that then is
(32:58):
making all of these otherconnections for us. I mean,
that's such a powerful way forus to consider these differences
in delivering, deliveringcontent.
Karen Eber (33:09):
And what happens, unfortunately, is that it is
really hard to be a leader. Now,the demands on your time are
extraordinary, because it's notjust delivering business
results, which that alone isenough.
You know, reading in this time,and making sure that you are
developing the skills likeempathy, and balancing empathy,
(33:31):
and accountability. And all ofthese things are new skills for
many people. And being able tobring the best out of every
individual some of these are arejust very different types of
skills. And the tendency whenthere's a presentation is that
we just don't leave ourselvesenough time to prepare. And so
(33:51):
there's no story to tell if youhaven't given yourself enough
time to think about what andtelling when in the moment can
can be uncomfortable untilyou've had some practice added.
I find most people spend maybe acouple hours working on the
slides they want to share andmaybe five minutes again about
what they want to say. And theproblem with that, is it no one
(34:12):
will remember what you said, noone is going to be really moved
or engaged by it and such amisstep that we do, because if
you really want to make surepeople are taking information
and making a decision having adiscussion taking action. You
need to be thoughtful about howyou're pulling that together.
And repurposing the time tothink about the best way to
(34:34):
really engage the audience anddo that is important. Yeah, and
even if it's just thinking thema flipping that usage of time
and spending the couple hoursconsidering what's the story,
what is the beginning, themiddle, the end, you know, what
are these key messages and thenmaybe just one or two slides,
maybe some image based slideswould be enough to background
(34:57):
right. Instead, reopen powerWell, you know, whatever our
favorite too is, when we startpicking slides as though we're
picking pieces of a quiltpatchwork that we're gonna put
together. Oh, I can use thisone, I can use this one. And
then you're piecing together.
Like, that's enough. But youhaven't stopped to think about
who am I talking to? What is itthat I want them to do? What are
the right messages for that? Andthen at the very end, what are
(35:20):
the visual aids including withdata, you know, we let the
content drive it. But by doingthat, we end up not
communicating anything. Mm hmm.
Yep, the aid becomes a crutchand taking away from the story.
No.
Dr. Leah OH (35:34):
So this next question, and you've kind of
already started to touch onthis, and I'm really interested
in your perspective, consideringyour experience and your your
organization now. But what doyou wish Karen more more of our
leaders or formal authority? Youknow, managers, directors will
be CEOs? What do you wish theyknew about the effects of
(35:57):
storytelling and the connectionbetween storytelling and
leadership?
Karen Eber (36:03):
I think you can't have one without the other. I
think that there are leadersthat are nervous to tell stories
because they don't want to sharepersonal information. And
storytelling is personal. 100%.
Storytelling is personal. Butpersonal doesn't mean Private.
Private are things that youdon't care to share with others.
(36:23):
Maybe that's things aboutyourself or your family. You
know, I have a very high privacybarrier, that I don't share
stories about my family. But Iwill gladly tell you stories
about mistakes that I made.
Because I want people to learn,I can use that as an anecdote.
And so your privacy barrier willbe different. Each person has a
(36:45):
different privacy barrier. Butevery story you tell his
personal, even if you're tellingsomeone else's story, because
you are making it personal, fromyour perspective, and why you
are the one telling it. And Ithink that that word personal
gets really intimidating toleaders who then think, well, I
don't want to get up and say themost personal thing ever, or be
(37:07):
extremely vulnerable. And theymiss that sharing your
perspective on the lateststrategy, or your perspective on
something that team did thatyou're proud of, you know, you
go in you, you go behind thescenes and share some of these
things. They go such a long wayand people feeling like you
trust them enough to share itwith them, and to creating a
(37:29):
community of psychologicalsafety. If you want to be a
great leader, you need toembrace storytelling, and you
need to practice getting to yourstyle of personal stories and
sharing things that are going toconnect with your your team.
I love that they're intertwinedand that they're indispensable
(37:53):
to one another.
Dr. Leah OH (37:55):
So Karen, I have two final questions for you. And
we always on the communicativeleader and we end thinking
really pragmatically aboutleadership or leadership
communication. So first, for ourformal leaders, we've kind of
talked about that already. Solet's think about employees all
ranks all industries? What, whatis going to be helpful for them?
(38:20):
Or maybe what can they start todo when they're interacting with
their own manager or their ownteams, in order to use
storytelling to be moreeffective persuasive
communicators?
Karen Eber (38:31):
Yeah, the trick of storytelling is it actually
isn't the story. It's theaudience, they are the stories
always start with the audience.
So this is true, whether you aregetting ready to give a
communication or communicationor tell a story, ground yourself
with these four questions.
Because every communicationsshould start here. You want to
(38:51):
think about who you're talkingto? And what is it that you want
them to come away thinking orfeeling. After you're done
sharing your story.
You want to and write out asentence for this. You want to
write out a sentence for what doyou want them to? To know or do
after. So part of it is thethinking and feeling the shift
(39:13):
the internal shift, and thenpart of it is the external
shift. And then you want tothink about where's their
mindset today? And what might bean obstacle. And this can be
done in five minutes before ameeting. But what you're really
trying to do is take a moment tothink about what is it that I'm
trying to do and who am I doingthis for and let me just take a
(39:33):
brief moment to try to get someMVP for like, who are they and
where are they at today? So ifyou're getting ready for a one
on one with your leader, andperfect timing here we are
coming up into some of your endactivities before things like
that. Take a moment and thinkabout like what do you want them
to come away feeling about youor thinking about you? Maybe
even give yourself a word thatyou want them to think of when
(39:57):
they think What do you want theto do, is there any any action
that you want them to do? Thinkabout that? What does that look
like? Where's their mindsettoday? And given all of those
things? And is there anythingthat could be an obstacle,
because when you get clarity onthose things, you can take a
communication or a story andmake sure you are telling it in
(40:19):
a way that you hit those things.
So the biggest piece ofstorytelling is it has
absolutely nothing to do withthe story. It always begins with
the audience.
Dr. Leah OH (40:27):
Yeah, I love that.
When you're saying these, it'smaking me think about servant
leadership. And this is a slighttwist. But you know, servant
leaders are essentially lookingto remove obstacles for others.
And that's, it sounds like inthis way, what really strong
storytellers can do and thinkingahead of time, who is my
audience? What are their needs?
(40:48):
What are my hopes, what arepossible obstacles or motivation
blocks that I need to be awareof, and recognizing that, as you
said, to me take a few minutesto reflect we don't need to
spend days for this. And I'msure the more we practice it,
the easier it gets. Butrecognizing that we can have a
much better outcome. And doingthis little bit of earlier
(41:13):
legwork.
Karen Eber (41:15):
You might not remove the obstacle, but the story is
going to help you navigate it orsee maybe even a completely
different path to go down. Yeah,yeah. And this last question,
again, you've left us a so manytips. And I'm wondering if
there's one tip for those whoare either striving for
management are currently in a isthere something that today they
(41:35):
can start doing to think abouthow they become better
storytellers. If he's trulylooking for an opportunity to
tell a story to recognize, noone is going to invite you to do
it, no one's going to say startthe meeting or a presentation or
your update with a story. No oneis going to say don't don't
share the data, tell us a story.
Find a moment, you're just goingto try telling a story and a one
(41:58):
on one and a meeting. Thinkabout what that is do it because
the thing about storytelling isit is compounding interest, and
telling a story it earns you theright to tell more stories, the
most intimidating thing is youhave to start. And so finding
what feels like a nonthreatening way or not
intimidating place to tell oneis key. And it's it really comes
(42:21):
down to like set an agreementwith yourself that you are going
to tell one story in the nextweek, and maybe just with a
coworker in a casual meeting.
But when you start looking foropportunities and you see them,
then you can start doing it moreand more and more. And the
stories then help shape yourleadership and shape how people
(42:41):
understand you. You know, anyonethat can open doors and help
people consider differentperspectives or a different path
are always greatly valued. Andit stories are such a great way
to do that. And if you are anintrovert and just naturally
speaking up in settings likethat doesn't feel comfortable.
Recognize that introverts havestorytelling as a superpower.
(43:05):
Because as you are reflectingyou sometimes notice details
that other people don't, whichmake for great opportunities to
pull that in and a thoughtfulmoment and help broaden an idea
or a discussion.
Dr. Leah OH (43:16):
Hmm, gosh, that's so so powerful. And I really
liked that idea, too, is wecan't wait for the invitation.
Karen Eber (43:26):
You're not gonna get called up on a stage or in a
meeting, you just queuespotlights. Let's say, not only
are you not going to get thatinvitation, you're probably
going to be told don't tell astory. Most of the time, when I
am working with clients, Irestart first. They make a list
of all these different timesthey've been told not to tell a
(43:46):
story. I'm like, hey, put thatlist aside, let's go. And they
find an opportunity to tell onewhere they weren't invited. And
they were told not to tell oneand 100% of the time, it is
always worked out wonderfully.
So just ignore the discouragingmoments and find a place to do
it. Yep. Anything to for thosefolks. Because like you said, I
(44:07):
think so many statistics rule inbusiness still, you know, that's
just where we are. Now, I thinkwe're seeing that shift. You
probably know that better thananyone. But I think that when
you tell the story, and you keeptelling stories and finding
those moments, people areactually going to remember your
statistics and data better, moreaccurately, perhaps when it is
(44:29):
attached to these other things.
And it might open up moreopportunities for people to,
like you said, look at you forleadership and your perspective.
Yeah, and even more thanremembering the data. They're
gonna remember the idea aroundthe data, because data about
people and things and projectsand what we want to do about it.
(44:51):
And so that's what you reallywant, you know, data ever speaks
for itself because we all makeassumptions and our brains are
making these predictions basedon Our experiences, all of our
experiences are different. Sowhen you aren't taking people
through that, you're riskingpeople making their own
assumptions. And they're alldifferent and we don't know. But
when you can take people throughthat story, you're getting
(45:12):
everyone to a common place fordiscussion and come away
remembering the same things.
Dr. Leah OH (45:19):
Karen, thank you.
I've had so much fun. I'velearned so much. I know I'm
going to be returning to thisconversation many times and I
want to thank you again forsharing your experience, your
time and your expertise with us.
Karen Eber (45:33):
Thank you for having me. Such a fun conversation.
Dr. Leah OH (45:37):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. I'mlooking forward to chatting with
you again soon on thecommunicative leader.
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