Tough conversations are, well, tough.
That's why we call them that -- tough, challenging, hard, sensitive, etc.
While these types of conversations aren't going away my friends, there are specific, pragmatic steps you can take that will make these more manageable.
Guess what?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry does us one better than manageable, he helps us to see how embracing these conversations in an audience-centered way can transform our workplace culture in really positive and transformative ways.
I had a lot of fun chatting with JP, and more importantly, I learned soooooo much from him.
Y'all, I have a PhD in this, write in this area, teach it and I still walked away with so much new knowledge -- this is a powerful conversation, for sure.
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry is a powerhouse in the
(00:03):
leadership coaching arena. JPworks with professional athletes
is an advisor to the US Army andNavy and consults for
organizations like IBM, MercedesBenz and Goldman Sachs, among
others. He's also the co founderand president of the Institute
for Health and human potential,we chat about how to have that
(00:24):
tough conversation and actuallyfinish it my friends. JP walks
us through his last 8% culturesystem and is based on an
enormous data set. So instead ofgetting through that first ad 85
90% of what we need to discuss,we can approach these
conversations and thoughtful,relational and effective ways.
(00:49):
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. Myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert,
and the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
JP, I cannot wait to geek outwith you today about leadership
(01:13):
and communication in these toughconversations. Thank you so much
for joining us on thecommunicative leader. But before
we dive into the ins and outs,can you tell us a little bit
about what brought you into thisarea?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (01:25):
Yeah, cuz I have challenge challenges
personally with communication?
Probably, and maybe that's a bittrite to say. But we all do,
don't we? I mean, you know,I've, as you have, I've studied
this area for many years. And Istill struggle with, you know,
having conversations with mysenior team with my business
partner with my 20 year old son.
(01:48):
So there's a real honest reasonwhy I'm here, which is to learn
first and foremost, 25 yearsago, but then, kind of what
brought me into the space is,you know, working with athletes
or people under pressure, that'skind of our areas, you know. And
for listeners, it's it's, youknow, we listen fairly well when
(02:11):
we're not under pressure. But assoon as we're in those kind of
moments where we're feelingjudged, when we're feeling
pressure to deliver a result,all sudden, we're not as
effective in both listening andcommunicating. So that's
probably where for me it allstarted, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (02:28):
Yes, I love that.
And like you said, I mean, we'vebeen studying this a long time.
And probably most days,something comes out of my mouth.
And I think, Oh, I wish I couldhave tweaked that, or I wish I
had thought and pivoted just alittle bit. So we recognize even
when we immerse ourselves,there's always more to learn. So
we have your background, weunderstand this passion. And
(02:51):
before we dive headfirst intoyour approach for navigating
these challenging conversations,can you help us understand what
makes something a toughconversation? What are what are
some of these common elementsthat you see?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (03:08):
Sure.I wouldn't even broaden it. I
mean, we're going to talkobviously, about conversations,
but I would broaden it to thehard situations that we face in
our research, we find that isdefinitely in conversations, but
it's also in decisions. It'salso in speaking up even though
that's not a one to onecommunication, it is definitely
(03:31):
or let's say one on oneconversation, it's definitely
communication. And it'scritical, if you want to be high
performing. And so I would kindof more broadly, kind ofkind of
construe or think about this,number one, number two,when we
are feeling responsible for anoutcome, when there's
(03:55):
uncertainty to thatoutcome.These are some of the
elements that then makeitincrease the pressure
increase, what makes it a harderconversation. And then I kind of
mentioned it earlier, when weare feeling kind of judged, that
we're responsible for thatoutcome. And when we feel
(04:18):
personally judged, that's whenabunch of things happen in the
brain that put us in a positionwhere we feel we perceive that
this is a hard conversation. Andso much of this is about
perception. You know, when weframe it in a certain way, when
the certain elements are there,and we frame it in a certain
way, that's when we are in thatplace where we're not able to
(04:41):
think as clearly when we're notas able to listen as well or
communicate as as effectively.
Dr. Leah OH (04:49):
When you were just talking I was thinking of this
is almost like a pressuretrifecta. Because we have
responsibility for the outcome.
We care about the outcome.Andthen we have uncertainty about
the outcome. I mean, we, we candefinitely look and say, yep,
that's, that's a lot ofchallenge. It's a lot of
pressure.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (05:10):
It is. And you know, the bottom line that
most people miss inorganizations is that the
natural default behavior formost individuals, all
individuals,is to default when they're
facing that trifecta is todefault to protection, not risk.
And they don't know it. We don'tknow what as managers, but
(05:33):
that's what's going on. And sounless there's some antidote,
unless there's some way tomanage that default to
protection, not risk, we willcontinue to have people who
won't speak up who won't makehard calls, who won't put
themselves in a position ofbeing judged. And we are not
even aware this is going on.
That's the kind of crazy part inmy mind.
Dr. Leah OH (05:55):
Hmm. I kind of related I've just talked to Dr.
Ryan basil, I don't know if youknow, his work, but it's all
employee voice and businessethics and speaking up. And he
brought in lifelongsocialization, and how that
implicit even when we're achild, we have to defer to
adults, we know there arecertain things that if we say
(06:17):
the adult is going to be upset,and while it sounds silly,
saying it out loud, thoseimplicit theories are still
impacting us in the workplace asan adult, as you're saying, it's
this protection mode and fear ofretribution.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (06:33):
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of our time,
is driven by something calledimpression management, which I
know you understand, but notmaybe everyone on the podcast
does. But it's that we spend alot of our day a lot of our
bandwidth is taken up, I wonderwhat they think about me, Okay,
I better manage that. Andbecause we want to manage that,
(06:55):
principally, because we don'twant to be excluded. As soon as
we're excluded, then we are in aposition where kind of almost
genetically driven, we feel likewe won't have access to
resources or relationships thatwill ensure our survival. And so
as soon as we're in thatsituation, no wonder, you know,
(07:15):
those implicit theories we haveinside that say, Whoa, I don't
want to get excluded. I betternot speak up, I better not do
those things then, again, arenot, you know, protection, their
risk. So it goes literallyagainst the fabric of our brain.
(07:35):
And that's why it's hard. Andthat's why if people aren't
given skills, if they don't havethe right environment, they will
continue to avoid. That's justthe truth. So yeah. You know
that Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (07:48):
well, the truth, and I'm sure the experience of
money, unfortunately. So onething, and you've already
mentioned this, and I foundmyself and I was preparing for a
conversation, thinking aboutperception. And we know that
perceptions vary from person toperson. So I have a two parter
for you. So one, how often inyour work? Do you find one
(08:08):
person is really agonizing orfretting over something? And
then to find out theconversation person, partner
isn't? And then second, what isthat perception of the tough
conversation versus this is justbusiness? Just really direct to
the point removing feelings? Andthey're like, it's just
(08:31):
business? It's not a toughconversation?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (08:33):
Yeah, that's that's a really great question,
I think. Because the brain istrying to protect the body.
Because of that reason, wedefault to protection, not risk.
It jumps to judgment based onless than 5% of available
information, which is analarming stat. Because of that,
(08:56):
the brain processes as itprocesses incoming information,
it prioritizes speed overaccuracy. That's interesting. So
in that moment, the brain isgoing to do everything it can to
make sure that it saves thebody. So it's going to
prioritize speed or accuracy,it's going to jump to judgment
based on less than 5%. And it'sin that moment that we can sit
(09:19):
there and let's see, I'm lookingat you or I'm looking at a
conversation partner. And theyhave some look on their face,
the brain. Its job is to keep ussafe. So it's going to sit there
and actually jump to judgmentwith less accuracy than, you
know speed and go, am I at risk?
And is that person was that?
(09:42):
What does that face mean? Hmm.
And that's when we can confusethe impact they are legitimately
having not legitimately thatthey are having on us for their
intention. So that's one of thefirst gaps for sure. We fall
into and And, and I think thatpoint that they're not thinking
about us, you know, we'resitting there worried that
(10:04):
they're, they're not eventhinking of us, I read this, I
don't know how many years ago inour 30s 40s and 50s, we worry
about what other people think ofus. In our 60s, we stop worrying
about what people think of us.
And in our 70s, we realize thatwe're never thinking about us in
the first one. And so, you know,it's the same idea. So that's
one big part, which is the firstquestion you asked. The second
(10:25):
question, though, is interestingas well, which is they saw what
I just said, and again, theresearch, you know, we can have
different frames for the samesituation. And so I might see
that as let's say, I'm new on ateam, let's say, I don't have as
much experience, let's say,internally, even I have some
(10:49):
insecurities. So multi factors,but I'm in that conversation
with you. And I'm now thinking,Hmm, you just gave me some
feedback, is my job at risk ismy livelihood and on and on and
on? And you who might have more,you know, seniority, more
(11:14):
experience, more confidence,more many things. More
understanding of how businessworks, or doesn't work and how
this culture is or isn't,whatever, so many factors. You
might be seen it as no, this isjust business, I'm just giving
you back. It's nothing more thanthat something personal. So it's
interesting how again, we canconstrue something as very
(11:37):
personal or not personal. Andbecause of that, it said, we can
be two different conversations.
I think my job is at stake here.
Like, no, I just need to getthis done. And by the way, I'm
not even saying that it means wedon't take into consideration
emotions. Of course it will anyeffective leader would. But
(11:58):
that's just more data moreinformation. It's not
necessarily or it shouldn't bethe driving factor in what gets
communicated, whataccountability gets created or
not. What, what kind oflistening Do you want to really
tune into, so that person andyou with them can help manage
(12:20):
their brain manage that emotionso they can hear you? So
there's, I mean, this is whyyour podcast is so awesome, is
there's so many levels, so manylayers. And this is some of the
hardest stuff we do as humans.
And so it kind of behooves us toget a little bit better at it.
Dr. Leah OH (12:38):
Yes, thank you.
That's it. I think a lot oftimes the communication, my
brain will literally almostshort circuits, I think about
all of the complexity and thelayers and the factors at play.
And I always tell people, it'samazing. People arrive at
organizations or log on atapproximately the same time like
that this work gets done becauseof how much complexity there is.
(13:02):
In one thing I was smiling aboutwhen you're talking. When I was
a PhD student, I taught a publicspeaking course. And I wish I
had the exact citation. But inour textbook, and this was I
think it was a citation from the40s or 50s. Because now, you
know, it would be frowned uponto bring an air horn in your
(13:24):
classroom and just randomly letit go off when you want to. But
what the gentleman was doing wasonce the students heard the air
horn, they had to write downimmediately what they were
thinking about. In this is whenthere were speeches going on,
the teacher was instructing andit was like essentially lunch.
What am I doing after afterschool? Like does he or she Are
(13:46):
they like me, right? So all ofthese things completely outside
of what was going on. And I lovethat that's how this public
speaking text started to say,this is a huge, huge moment for
you. But But someone's out therethinking about their sandwich,
or they're thinking about whatto do afterwards.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (14:11):
Like it's a great point chicks in me Hi,
chicks amis. Hi, which I know,you know, is workaround flowing,
they use a beeper system, less afoghorn, or a big trash horn.
But they literally, you know,they've had this and they've
done this for years where theybeat an individual and they
write down what they werethinking and 50% of the time,
they weren't thinking aboutanything that had anything
(14:31):
related to the moment. They'relost. By the way, that's why
mindfulness for anyonelistening, need to do
mindfulness, or you need to havesome internal technology.
Mindfulness is by far the moststudied the most effective, you
need to have some form ofinternal technology that says,
oh, maybe I'm not present rightnow. Or or my mind's wandering.
(14:56):
I don't have to believe everythought I have. Yeah, and so You
know, I love your story. That'sa great one. And I just sit
here. And I think for everyonelistening, what's the takeaway?
People are thinking aboutthemselves more than anything?
They're Yeah, they're moreworried, do I have something on
my clothes? You know, do I havesomething in my teeth? They're
(15:16):
not actually looking at usthinking about us that often.
And it's actually very, I hope,freeing for people. I agree. I
think the next level, I wouldeven suggest this the next
level. If we truly want to beexceptional, in our, how we live
our lives, our effectiveness,etc. Can we in that moment,
(15:37):
actually sit there and haveempathy for the person that
we're with and sit there go, Iwonder what their suffering is.
Because as soon as you can tuneinto that, yourself evaporates,
you don't think about yourself,you're more thinking, Oh, I
wonder if they had a toughmorning, Oh, I wonder what's
going on for them. And then allof a sudden, you can be in a lot
more of a service mentality, alot more of a serving energy.
(15:59):
And that's, by the way, nowyou're not thinking about me and
what I have to say, and theworries I have about this
presentation or whateverperformance moment we're facing.
That's actually the next level.
And again, this is all possibleto train on. Hmm. But it's got
to be disciplined practice, orelse, you know, none of us will
be able to do that. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (16:22):
Yeah. And I like that shifting from i to we.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (16:26):
Absolutely.
Dr. Leah OH (16:28):
So JP a, I'm sure you have heard every reason for
not wanting to engage in achallenging conversation. So
what are these obstacles thatpeople often will tell you?
Like? I would love to have thatconversation? I'd love to think
about this. But what? Fill inthe blank for us?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (16:53):
Yeah, I mean, like the reasons that people
don't have a conversation. Yeah.
Well, yeah, great question. Boy,so many reasons. And we're very
creative. We're exceptionalbeing creative for avoidance.
No, in our data, we find thatwhen you're facing a difficult
conversation, there's twoprincipal ways that we default.
(17:14):
And we call this our, ourpredictable default behavior. So
each of us has has a pattern.
When I work with athletes, I seethis not so much in
conversation, although itcertainly can be there. But when
they're facing pressure, kind ofwhat their pattern is. And so
this comes from our work withathletes, maybe originally, in
(17:37):
some ways to to look forpatterns, at least. And what's
interesting is, if I'm having tohave a conversation with you.
And I struggle with theseconversations. And just I need
to step even one point back you,I think, you know this, but we
(17:58):
did a study of 34,000 peoplewill, we found that there is
about 8% of what we don't wantto say it's the hard part of a
conversation, it's the mostimportant parts of the
conversation, it's the part thatmight have consequences for you.
And because now I'm having that,moving into that last 8%, I've
gotten past 85 and 90, gettingto 92. And as I move into the
(18:19):
last day percent, and I see thatyou're starting to get bit
triggered a bit, you know,emotional, because you see where
the where this conversation isgoing, you see the consequences.
I get infected by your motion.
And as opposed to stepping inand facing it. I do one of two
things, either, and this is 68%of us in our data, I avoid it.
(18:41):
And I come up with all thesecreative solutions, as you
pointed out, or let's say I'vebeen thinking about having this
conversation for a couple ofdays with you. I'm up at three
in the morning. And my mind andI'm thinking about it
ruminating, ruminating,ruminating. And now we're it's
(19:01):
10am or 11am. And I'm having aconversation with you. And I
just, you know, feel like okay,I finally got the courage to
actually speak up. And what do Ido I speak up. That's like the
worst possible thing I could do.
The single worst possible thingI could do, because I don't
(19:25):
really know what's on your sideof the bridge. I've jumped to
judgment based on less than 5%of the available information. I
feel certain and right. And it'sin that moment, especially where
we don't speak up. But we startby being curious that's part of
our model be curious, then speakup not speak up and be curious.
(19:46):
And it matters because you'regonna get us a whole you're
gonna give me a whole bunch ofinformation that I'm gonna go
Oh, that's it. I didn't knowthat. Huh? Oh, am I changed?
What I say in the speakingupside so be cute. As I speak
up, really matters. And so, insome ways, if we can sit there
(20:07):
and think, Okay, I'm having ahard conversation
what I'm really doing is gettingmore than 5% of available
information. I'm just going toreally stand in the Be curious
side. In some ways that mightmake it a lot easier for us to
(20:29):
think about contemplate having ahard conversation, which might
be a bit of an antidote to thecreative ways that we avoid. So
imagine everyone who'slistening, 62 thirds of us avoid
32% of us a third almost make amess, right? So that's the point
that I'm saying. So I've beenthinking about it all night. Now
I'm going to have theconversation. And now I'm going
(20:51):
to launch in i Come on way toostrong. I come in hot. And I
have impact I don't intend.
That's what we think of as that.
Other side. So of 60% of usavoid 32% of us make a mess.
Right, when we struggle with thelast 8% conversation,
Dr. Leah OH (21:08):
yeah. And I like the simplicity in being curious.
And then speaking up, I think ifwe speak up first, like you say,
we're coming in hot not thinkingabout it, then we can be curious
about the amount of damage we'vedone. And, you know, the
reverse, that sounds a lotbetter.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (21:27):
What it does, and by the way, in some ways. It
may not I might be grasping atstraws here, but I actually
think it's slightly takes thepressure off. If I'm gonna have
a conversation. I'm just goingto start by being curious. I
don't have to say anything. Butwe talked about it as having
kind of really twoconversations. Right? It you
(21:48):
know, in the first conversation,I'm actually making the
commitment not to speak mytruth. Right, I'm actually
sitting there thinking about,like in meeting one is just,
hey, help me understand Leo,what was going on that? Right?
And you might say, Well, what doyou think I'm trying to learn?
(22:10):
Right? And I'm just trying tolisten and try to be curious
whether you use that language ornot. That's what we're trying to
do. Because here's what happens.
If you're sitting there, I'masking you the question, I'm
being curious, but really, I'mjust waiting until I can speak
up, you're gonna sense that inme, you're gonna go. And that's
not going to make you feel lessanxious. I'm, my goal is to make
you feel less anxious, anxiousto make you feel safe enough to
(22:32):
be in the conversation. Now, Ican't control everything, of
course. But there's a bunch ofthings I can do. Ask questions
that helps you managed yourbrain increase, interestingly
enough, be curious. And thensay, you know, and this can be
unfulfilling for the otherperson will say, Okay, listen,
thank you. That's reallyhelpful. I'm going to think
(22:53):
about this. Let's talk againtomorrow. And even when I start
meeting two tomorrow, I'm like,So Leah, you know, we had a good
conversation yesterday, wasthere anything new that you
thought of since we talk? Okay,now I can, like you feel heard?
I have been curious. And look,none of us are perfect at this.
And now I can move to part two,which is speak up. Okay. So it
(23:14):
sounds like this is going on,this is going on? Great. You
know, from my side of thebridge, here's, here's how I'm
seeing things may be seen itdifferently. Here's what we're
trying to do to build theculture on our team, you know,
to have high accountability andfor what just happened, that's
not acceptable. And our behavioris not acceptable. And I think I
(23:36):
understand what went on for you.
But, you know, that's not whatwe're trying to build here. And
in fact, there's a whole bunchof ways, of course, that we can
kind of communicate that, whichis understand that I'm trying to
make, make you feel safe.
Control it all, but doeverything I can so that you
understand. I'm not on purpose,because your brain will go
(24:02):
there. As we already talkedabout. I'm trying to make you
recognize I'm not just trying torip you up for because I'm, you
know, sadist or masochist? Whichone is it when you want to
impart pain on someone else?
Dr. Leah OH (24:15):
I think it's a sadist. Yeah,
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (24:18):
there's a masochist. combined. That's
right. So so I don't want to, bythe way, you shouldn't probably
say it if you don't know theword less. noticable. Couldn't
be
Dr. Leah OH (24:28):
Googling right after. Exactly. Yes. And I
imagined to I don't know thisliterature. Well, but I imagined
when you're curious and askingquestions, and coming from a
place of listening that'sautomatically going to slow your
brain, which is can be reallyhelpful here. Mm hmm.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (24:48):
Absolutely. I mean, we have to manage
ourselves, manage others ifwe're a manager, people leader,
with the brain in mind. This isa big leap in the last 10 years
of management studies. We'restarting to recognize that, you
know, neuroscience has a place.
And, by the way, for a lot offolks, in organizations, I think
they walk away learning some ofthe stuff. So I think you know,
(25:13):
this, but you know, that's whatwe do we help organizations
create high performing culturesin months, not years. And so
that's like, that's our wholepurpose. And the thing is, is
that for when someone understatewhen they go through some of our
learning, they understand thebrain, how it works, all of a
sudden, they're like, Oh, myGod, you just described me,
(25:34):
that's helpful. But hopefully,they also understands,
understand that this explainsthe person who are they're
having a conversation with ordoing whatever with, you know,
we, our goal is to help, youknow, challenge people to become
students of human behavior. Soas soon as you get that, all of
a sudden, you almost don't evenneed the techniques and all of
(25:55):
the other stuff. I mean, we alldo we need to be prepared and
cetera, et cetera. But itbecause it all makes sense. It's
just like, kind of riding abike? Oh, of course, I'm gonna
be curious first, because I gotto help you manage your brain.
So it's not even like I have toOh, what's the next thing? No, I
just know, I can't come in andjust start launching, jump into
(26:16):
judgment be being certain versuscurious.
Dr. Leah OH (26:21):
Yes, yes. And they love that about your
organization. So he's think asan organizational scholar, if we
have more people immersed inhealthy, pro social, you know,
other oriented cultures, ourwhole lives would be so much
different. For sure, I mean, youknow that this is this is your
(26:41):
day in and day out? No, no, no,
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (26:43):
you're you're right. And I think the principal
goal of an organization is not,you know, to be nice to their
employees, it's not to be afamily, it's none of that it's
to grow a business that addsvalue. So you can employ more
people, you can just getwhatever results, you want to
fulfill whatever purpose youwant. But if you get all of this
(27:06):
stuff that you start torecognize how I go about doing
that, is completely different.
When I know the brain when Iunderstand what makes people
tick. So now it is to make themhave some experience in your
organization where they have avoice where they feel valued.
But that's not the goal. That'sa means to the goal. And that's
where sometimes I think,organizations, folks in HR get
(27:29):
it wrong. I think the goal is tomake people feel good. It's not
the goal is to be a family. It'snot. Right. So but but if but
again, if you understand how itall works together, then you'll
you sit, there you go, how, whywould I ever jump into command
and control? I might, becausethat's my default, because I
(27:50):
make a mess. But if I understandmyself, and I go, okay, that's
my default, I've got to have anantidote, I've got to have a
kind of coaching, I've got tohave whatever it is to help me
manage them. But at the end ofthe day, I kind of recognize
command and control is not goingor bullying or interrupting or
when I'm not giving people voicenot making people feel valued.
(28:11):
That's not actually going tohelp me get to my goal, which
is, whatever your goal is, yeah.
Because, you know, there's thisgreat Japanese proverb, which I
love. All of us are smarter thanany one of us. I love that.
Because it's like, that's whyyou want people engaged. That's
(28:33):
why you want them feelingcommitment, you know, employee
commitment, because you're like,I'm valued. I'm a voice, I feel
connected. And now because ofthat, I can be courageous, I can
speak up, I can do whatever itis, that's hard.
Dr. Leah OH (28:51):
Yep. So we put that investment in our people. And I
think two people fail to see thecompound of that and recognizing
that we get to that goal evenquicker, because then that's how
they treat our vendors and ouremployees, our customers. I
mean, it doesn't just stop withthe employee base. We're
(29:12):
transforming the way we'reinteracting with these external
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (29:15):
publics. It's a great point. I mean, our
reputation catches up to us. Howwe treat people, maybe not for
six months or a year or fiveyears, but eventually does.
Yeah, you know, like, whenyou're a leader, where it's
really just about you. Whenyou're not you. You might say,
(29:39):
you know, I represent you I likeyou can say a whole bunch of
things, but when people see overand over, that you're not really
interested in anything butyourself. In fact, you're may or
may not even be interested inthe company's goals. You're just
interested in yourself. Youknow, they're going to start
walking away.
Dr. Leah OH (30:00):
So JP, we've we've got the solid understanding of
tough conversations under ourbelt. And now I'd love to learn
more about your renowned system,the last 8% principle and
transforming those toughconversations.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (30:15):
Yeah. So, you know, this is our culture change
system. And there's a couple ofreally important points to know.
And again, people don't getthis. Like, there's a whole
bunch of myths. So first mythis. So actually, let me step
back and say this. For anorganization, we think our
(30:35):
strategy is our competitiveadvantage. It's not if you have
a good competitive a goodstrategy. People will copy it.
Right? Of course. So that's nota competitive advantage, right?
A point of difference. Peoplethink, Oh, our product, that's
going to be our competitiveadvantage. And again, it's
(30:57):
copyable. Yes, and even a wordcopyable.
Dr. Leah OH (31:02):
We can replicate it. Well, we should go with the
copyable.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (31:07):
Okay, so your strategies copyable, your
products copy? Well, the thingis not copyable is your culture,
and cultures, and there'sorganizations like oh, we want
to create HP, us have the HP waymany years ago, and people tried
to copy it or, you know, copyGoogle or copy whoever I mean,
we all you know, we all know thedifferent ones that people try
(31:29):
to copy. And that that'simpossible. And there's a whole
reason why, which I'll talkabout now. But it's impossible
to copy culture. And because ofthat, your culture becomes your
competitive advantage. It is thedifference maker, it's why you
can collaborate, and why you cando hard things and why you can
be innovative, and why you canbring on, you know, smart people
(31:53):
who can do great things likeit's not strategy copyable it's
not products copyable it isabsolutely cultural. So let's
dig into that a little bit. Whycan't your culture be copied
because of how its createdcultures? Not? Let's put, you
know, let's do an off site as asenior team and come up with
(32:13):
four or five values that wethink okay, that's our culture.
No, culture comes from the hardmoments culture comes from the
last 8% moments. Because whenwe're under pressure in the last
8%, there's more cortisol in ourbrain. Cortisol is a stress
hormone. One of the effects ofcortisol is that it sears in
memory in a more profound way.
And so, as a leader, you can begreat 92% of time, but now
(32:36):
you're in the last 8% situationwith your team. Everyone's got
more cortisol in their brain,let's say because it's last 8%
Literally, by definition, it's ahard moment, people are feeling
the pressure. Whatever decisionyou make, in that moment,
whatever behavior you engage in,that literally gets seared into
their brain. And that createsreally two things. One, your
reputation as a leader. Andnumber two, the culture on this
(33:00):
team, the silent signal thatsays this behavior is
acceptable, this behavior isrewarded on this team. And so
that's why culture is notcopyable. Because everyone has
different lasting presentsituations. And they deal with
it differently. So it's, it's,it's what people get wrong. So
(33:20):
that that's an important point.
Number one, number two, culturedoes not exist across
organizations is anotherfallacy. culture exists
principally on teams, that's thefundamental unit of culture.
It's why you can have twohospital floors doing the same
work, let's say oncology, withthe same values on the wall, in
(33:42):
the same hospital door, likeFlorida floor, right, like, not
even separated geographically,really. And you have staff that
go back and forth between thefloors. I've worked, I worked in
a couple of hospitals a coupleof times, and I've seen this,
that we've seen this definitelywith our clients. And yet you
(34:03):
even in those situations whereeverything's the same, including
the staff, there's onedifference, which I'll mention
in a second, but including thestaff that goes back and forth,
you can have completelydifferent cultures on the floor.
Why? Right? And what kind ofdifferent cultures you can have
some that are people areabsolutely happy to help pitch
in, even on their breaks. And onthe other people are seemingly
(34:24):
more selfish, you know, justdon't really care what's going
on for anyone else, butthemselves. They're not going to
pitch and give that extra kindof discretionary effort. What's
the difference? The onlydifference is you have managers
who do not float between onefloor or the other. Because it's
the manager that drives theculture on the floor based on
(34:44):
their modeling of hard momentsin the last 8% Because of the
cortisol effect. And so what'sinteresting is, you know, again,
organizations get it wrong.
They're like, Oh, culture existsacross the organization. No, oh,
here are the values these thisis our culture. No, no culture
comes from your hard moments.
That's why many people haveskills to manage their brain and
(35:04):
hard moments. And so that's whatcreates, and that's why it's not
copyable. That's why it is yourcompetitive advantage. And
that's why in our culture changesystem, the big aha, I think,
for a lot of people is thoselast 8%, those hard moments that
most people struggle with, theyavoid, they make a mess up, we
(35:24):
help them see it differently. Ithink you'll appreciate this,
Leah because you know, this kindof literature, but we help them
see differently not as somethingto fight or avoid or construe as
a negative. Last 8%, we wantthem to see differently, not as
the worst thing that couldhappen. But as something that
(35:45):
does happen, and is your biggestopportunity to transform
yourself and your, you know,leadership capability. But more
so the culture on your team. Solast 8%, is we call it the last
8% opportunity will as anorganization face hard things.
So how can you become the mostcourageous organization in your
(36:09):
industry, and create a culturewhere we will be uncomfortable,
because our default is toprotection, not risk. If you can
norm all of this and say, Look,in our organization, you're not
always going to be comfortable.
But that's okay. Because we wantto be what we call an upper
right hand quadrant culture,which is, you know, a high
(36:30):
performing culture that has bothhigh connection and high
courage. So we have a map thatkind of described all this.
That's, and so that's, you know,and so fundamentally, we say,
people, either it's up to you,not the CEO or CHRO, it's up to
you to actually own the cultureon your team. Here's the
structure to do it not even withus as like a third party vendor,
we give them the tools, so theycan do it, using some, you know,
(36:52):
innovative approaches, like fourweek sprint and some other
things. And we're so, so excitedabout this, as you can probably
tell,
Dr. Leah OH (37:03):
yeah, that is I love just the the reframe. This
doesn't have to be scary. Thisdoesn't have to be a negative.
But it's an opportunity todemonstrate how we do things
here.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (37:13):
Right? Right.
And by the way, it's not like,you have a choice, because you
will face hard moments. Everyonedoes. So it's almost funny, some
CEOs and CHR OHS that getoverwhelmed, like I got to own
the culture, you don't, but theythink they do. And then they
think, Oh, my gosh, how do we dothis across a large
organization. And then so theydo nothing. And I understand
(37:35):
that, by the way, like, as apresident of our company, I know
that feeling, I gotta get thingsdone, I don't have time to work
on the culture on the team, Itotally get that. But here's the
thing. The hard moments aren'tgoing away. So you might put
your head in the sand and say,We're not going to focus on
culture, but your culture isbeing created right now.
Everyone listening on your team,when you hit a hard moment, your
(37:59):
culture is being created cocreated, really. So you don't
really have a choice. And sowhat happens is culture gets
created by default, not bydesign.
Dr. Leah OH (38:11):
By default, not by design. Exactly. So GP I love
the system, a organizationalbrain, my communication, and my
leadership is just all lit up.
And I thinking how do you howcan we kind of lean into this
into other areas of our life? Sowhether it's, you know, a
contractor we've hired orsomething with a family member
(38:32):
or friend, is there a way we cancan apply these ideas to these
tough conversations?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (38:39):
Yeah, absolutely. So to really see
them for what they are thebiggest opportunity to transform
ourselves, when we go through ahard moment, it's our biggest
opportunity to transformourselves, and the biggest
opportunity to transform arelationship. So number one, we
(39:01):
have to really buy into that. Ifwe don't then forget it, you
know, turn off the podcast now.
You know, number one, numbertwo. It won't be easy. You will
struggle because of the way thebrain is. And you almost have to
accept that you will be somewhatincompetent in the early going
(39:24):
of doing this. It's not going tomagically happen that you're
going to get effective at thiskind of thing. And if you can
see every opportunity to haveone of these conversations as an
opportunity to practice in orderto transform, then time we'll
have like a year from now, ifyou and I were on the call,
we're having the sameconversation and listeners are
(39:45):
listening and listeners if youspent the last year every time
you could possible, have thisconversation being a little less
competent at first, or morecompetent in the middle and
maybe more common At the end, ina year, you actually are going
to get better. And becauseyou're better now you're going
to have a confidence becauseyou're going to have a
(40:07):
confidence, you will be lookedon very differently by the
people around you. And this willdrive a lot of your career. So
that you just kind of buy intothis to start, right. It's like,
you know, when I work withathletes, I don't work with them
for a day or a week or month,it's yours, it takes time, right
to kind of create these neuralpathways in our brains, there's
no easy fix, sorry, everyone, noeasy fix. Having said that,
(40:27):
there's a whole bunch of thingswe can do start a mindfulness
practice, today, 10 minutes aday, we know that changes the
brain helps you see yourthoughts for what they are, and
helps you not be as affected bypressure. Number one, so do
that. Number two, that we're inthe golden age of education,
like there's so much like thispodcasts are so much great
(40:47):
opportunity to listen and learn.
You got to be an aggressivelearner, and jump in and do
that. So that's kind of numbertwo. Number three, I would if
listener, if you're in like apod doesn't even matter what
kind of job. But if you canspend other money on coaching,
(41:10):
though, doesn't have to be apaid coach, it can be a good
friend. But generally speaking,it's better for a coach because
they have expertise. To loseyour coach, I slightly joke but
not really. For the last 13years, I've either had a coach
or therapist when my life isgoing well to coach when it's
not going so well as atherapist. But But in either
case, it's that person who I canbounce an idea off and say, Hey,
(41:34):
I'm struggling with this. And weliterally walk through it. So
there's a whole template. Imean, that's what our
organization does is we helppeople learn the whole template
of how to do all of thesethings. So you can show up. And
yes, you will feeluncomfortable, but you'll show
up with a little bit moreconfidence to step in and do the
hard thing. What's amazing isthat you do it a few times, and
(41:55):
you start to go, Oh, that wasn'tso bad. And you had said this
earlier, huh? You know, I hadmade this big story up about how
they were thinking or what'sgoing on. And in fact, they
weren't even thinking thatthey're like, they're upset
because, you know, stuff wasgoing on their family or that
look on their face was they hadgas, you know, like, whatever.
(42:17):
That's a little too. You know,it's just like, oh, you know,
like, and this is where we needto become students of human
behavior. Hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (42:26):
Yeah. So I think there's so much power to and
acknowledging that it's likelyto feel uncomfortable that it's
likely to be a struggle. Andthat takes me back when I had my
first child is looking at aparenting podcast. And the woman
said, It's hard because it'shard, not because you're doing
it wrong. And it was like alight bulb epiphany moment,
(42:49):
like, Oh, yes, this is justhard. And it's okay. It doesn't
mean that I'm failing here. Andit does get easy. You build up
some confidence, but yourecognize this might always be a
challenge. And if we recognizethat, it becomes a lot easier,
absolutely. Perfect. So I havetwo, two final questions for
(43:11):
you. And they cannot. So I'm thecommunicative leader, I really
like to leave listeners withvery tangible, pragmatic,
pragmatic leadership orcommunication tips that they can
integrate. Right away. So myfirst question for our leaders
out there managers, directors,supervisors, and then for our
(43:35):
employees of all ranks, so whatdo you what do you want to leave
them with?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (43:39):
Yeah. When you're needing to have a hard
conversation, first andforemost, be curious. Then speak
up. Be curious. Speak up, becurious, speak up. In a meeting,
as you start a cardconversation, really dig into
being curious as opposed tocertain you have an idea about
(44:03):
what's going on, you're probablywrong. So get more than 5% of
available, availableinformation. To me that's like,
absolutely critical. The otherthing I would say is this, this
(44:24):
a really helpful tip, that helpsme a lot. And it may because
it's slightly out of context. Itmay sound funny joke, folks, but
it'll probably make sense. Whenwe start that conversation, so
I've been curious. Now I'm gonnaabout speak up to actually start
(44:45):
with a little bit ofvulnerability. So Leah, if you
and I are having a conversation,I've been curious. I'm really
trying to understand whathappened in that meeting. So
this is the second big tip. It'sto start with Haley. I loved it.
I really want to have aconversation about this, but I
have to tell you, this is a beenvulnerable part. I'm a little
nervous, I'm anxious, because Idon't want to upset you. Or I
(45:07):
don't want to have you be upsetwith me. I value our
relationship. So I'm a littleanxious right now. And even just
doing that, all of a sudden,you're like, oh, like your heart
slightly. And you're like, Oh,he's not trying to cut me off at
the knees. In fact, he's feelinga bit nervous and anxious right
now. And that changes. How yousee my intention in this moment
in that matter. So two things,two things, listeners, be
(45:31):
curious, speak up. And they willas you initiate the
conversation, especially theSpeak Up part. Name, how you're
feeling? Mm hmm. You know, nameit say, No, I'm feeling
whatever. Like, for me, that'soften what I feel. So that's why
it's well practiced. Because Ido want Pete, you know, and I'm
(45:52):
an avoider by the way, like, I'mthe avoider, make a mess. I'm an
avoider. So for me, it's like,it takes me a while to actually
have a hard conversation. ButI've really learned to start
with that being a bitvulnerable. And look, at the end
of the day, we can't controlwhat another person is going to
do. But this increases theprobability that it will be
successful.
Dr. Leah OH (46:14):
And just think that the power especially if we have
a formal leader says, I justneed to let you know going into
this and feeling a littleanxious, or I really value this
relationship. And so I'm feelingnervous. Absolutely. Yeah, we're
role modeling that, you know,this is part of the workplace,
like you say, We're shapingculture in such a positive ways.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (46:35):
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's
another that's actually a reallygreat point as well. So when
you're vulnerable listener, justsay, Hey, I'm a little anxious,
you know, I don't want you toupset you get you upset with me
what I'm doing this because Ireally take my job as a leader
seriously. And I think these arethe moments as we all talked
about, we want to build thislast 8% culture. These are the
moments that create, you know,our culture. And so even though
(46:57):
I'm a bit uncomfortable, I'mstill gonna have that
conversation because of thatreally important purpose. And so
I hope you can see that and hopewe can have this conversation in
a, in a good way.
Dr. Leah OH (47:07):
Yeah, I think it's taking a lot of what we already
have playing in our minds, thatis invisible. And then I think
to to just make that clear forothers. Absolutely. Excellent.
Well, JP, thank you so much forbeing on the communicative
leader. It was really adelightful conversation. I've
(47:28):
learned so much and I know ourlisteners will as well.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (47:32):
Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. Thank
you, Leah, the good work you'redoing, you know, I know it's
making a difference. So it wasmy pleasure to be on.
Dr. Leah OH (47:41):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. Andlooking forward to chatting with
you again soon on thecommunicative leader.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry is a powerhouse in the
(00:03):
leadership coaching arena. JPworks with professional athletes
is an advisor to the US Army andNavy and consults for
organizations like IBM, MercedesBenz and Goldman Sachs, among
others. He's also the co founderand president of the Institute
for Health and human potential,we chat about how to have that
(00:24):
tough conversation and actuallyfinish it my friends. JP walks
us through his last 8% culturesystem and is based on an
enormous data set. So instead ofgetting through that first ad 85
90% of what we need to discuss,we can approach these
conversations and thoughtful,relational and effective ways.
(00:49):
Hello, and welcome to thecommunicative leader hosted by
me, Dr. Leah Omilion-Hodges. Myfriends call me Dr. OH. I'm a
Professor of Communication and aleadership communication expert,
and the communicative leader.
We're working to make your worklife what you want it to be.
JP, I cannot wait to geek outwith you today about leadership
(01:13):
and communication in these toughconversations. Thank you so much
for joining us on thecommunicative leader. But before
we dive into the ins and outs,can you tell us a little bit
about what brought you into thisarea?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (01:25):
Yeah, cuz I have challenge challenges
personally with communication?
Probably, and maybe that's a bittrite to say. But we all do,
don't we? I mean, you know,I've, as you have, I've studied
this area for many years. And Istill struggle with, you know,
having conversations with mysenior team with my business
partner with my 20 year old son.
(01:48):
So there's a real honest reasonwhy I'm here, which is to learn
first and foremost, 25 yearsago, but then, kind of what
brought me into the space is,you know, working with athletes
or people under pressure, that'skind of our areas, you know. And
for listeners, it's it's, youknow, we listen fairly well when
(02:11):
we're not under pressure. But assoon as we're in those kind of
moments where we're feelingjudged, when we're feeling
pressure to deliver a result,all sudden, we're not as
effective in both listening andcommunicating. So that's
probably where for me it allstarted, Leah.
Dr. Leah OH (02:28):
Yes, I love that.
And like you said, I mean, we'vebeen studying this a long time.
And probably most days,something comes out of my mouth.
And I think, Oh, I wish I couldhave tweaked that, or I wish I
had thought and pivoted just alittle bit. So we recognize even
when we immerse ourselves,there's always more to learn. So
we have your background, weunderstand this passion. And
(02:51):
before we dive headfirst intoyour approach for navigating
these challenging conversations,can you help us understand what
makes something a toughconversation? What are what are
some of these common elementsthat you see?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (03:08):
Sure.I wouldn't even broaden it. I
mean, we're going to talkobviously, about conversations,
but I would broaden it to thehard situations that we face in
our research, we find that isdefinitely in conversations, but
it's also in decisions. It'salso in speaking up even though
that's not a one to onecommunication, it is definitely
(03:31):
or let's say one on oneconversation, it's definitely
communication. And it'scritical, if you want to be high
performing. And so I would kindof more broadly, kind ofkind of
construe or think about this,number one, number two,when we
are feeling responsible for anoutcome, when there's
(03:55):
uncertainty to thatoutcome.These are some of the
elements that then makeitincrease the pressure
increase, what makes it a harderconversation. And then I kind of
mentioned it earlier, when weare feeling kind of judged, that
we're responsible for thatoutcome. And when we feel
(04:18):
personally judged, that's whenabunch of things happen in the
brain that put us in a positionwhere we feel we perceive that
this is a hard conversation. Andso much of this is about
perception. You know, when weframe it in a certain way, when
the certain elements are there,and we frame it in a certain
way, that's when we are in thatplace where we're not able to
(04:41):
think as clearly when we're notas able to listen as well or
communicate as as effectively.
Dr. Leah OH (04:49):
When you were just talking I was thinking of this
is almost like a pressuretrifecta. Because we have
responsibility for the outcome.
We care about the outcome.Andthen we have uncertainty about
the outcome. I mean, we, we candefinitely look and say, yep,
that's, that's a lot ofchallenge. It's a lot of
pressure.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (05:10):
It is. And you know, the bottom line that
most people miss inorganizations is that the
natural default behavior formost individuals, all
individuals,is to default when they're
facing that trifecta is todefault to protection, not risk.
And they don't know it. We don'tknow what as managers, but
(05:33):
that's what's going on. And sounless there's some antidote,
unless there's some way tomanage that default to
protection, not risk, we willcontinue to have people who
won't speak up who won't makehard calls, who won't put
themselves in a position ofbeing judged. And we are not
even aware this is going on.
That's the kind of crazy part inmy mind.
Dr. Leah OH (05:55):
Hmm. I kind of related I've just talked to Dr.
Ryan basil, I don't know if youknow, his work, but it's all
employee voice and businessethics and speaking up. And he
brought in lifelongsocialization, and how that
implicit even when we're achild, we have to defer to
adults, we know there arecertain things that if we say
(06:17):
the adult is going to be upset,and while it sounds silly,
saying it out loud, thoseimplicit theories are still
impacting us in the workplace asan adult, as you're saying, it's
this protection mode and fear ofretribution.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (06:33):
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of our time,
is driven by something calledimpression management, which I
know you understand, but notmaybe everyone on the podcast
does. But it's that we spend alot of our day a lot of our
bandwidth is taken up, I wonderwhat they think about me, Okay,
I better manage that. Andbecause we want to manage that,
(06:55):
principally, because we don'twant to be excluded. As soon as
we're excluded, then we are in aposition where kind of almost
genetically driven, we feel likewe won't have access to
resources or relationships thatwill ensure our survival. And so
as soon as we're in thatsituation, no wonder, you know,
(07:15):
those implicit theories we haveinside that say, Whoa, I don't
want to get excluded. I betternot speak up, I better not do
those things then, again, arenot, you know, protection, their
risk. So it goes literallyagainst the fabric of our brain.
(07:35):
And that's why it's hard. Andthat's why if people aren't
given skills, if they don't havethe right environment, they will
continue to avoid. That's justthe truth. So yeah. You know
that Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (07:48):
well, the truth, and I'm sure the experience of
money, unfortunately. So onething, and you've already
mentioned this, and I foundmyself and I was preparing for a
conversation, thinking aboutperception. And we know that
perceptions vary from person toperson. So I have a two parter
for you. So one, how often inyour work? Do you find one
(08:08):
person is really agonizing orfretting over something? And
then to find out theconversation person, partner
isn't? And then second, what isthat perception of the tough
conversation versus this is justbusiness? Just really direct to
the point removing feelings? Andthey're like, it's just
(08:31):
business? It's not a toughconversation?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (08:33):
Yeah, that's that's a really great question,
I think. Because the brain istrying to protect the body.
Because of that reason, wedefault to protection, not risk.
It jumps to judgment based onless than 5% of available
information, which is analarming stat. Because of that,
(08:56):
the brain processes as itprocesses incoming information,
it prioritizes speed overaccuracy. That's interesting. So
in that moment, the brain isgoing to do everything it can to
make sure that it saves thebody. So it's going to
prioritize speed or accuracy,it's going to jump to judgment
based on less than 5%. And it'sin that moment that we can sit
(09:19):
there and let's see, I'm lookingat you or I'm looking at a
conversation partner. And theyhave some look on their face,
the brain. Its job is to keep ussafe. So it's going to sit there
and actually jump to judgmentwith less accuracy than, you
know speed and go, am I at risk?
And is that person was that?
(09:42):
What does that face mean? Hmm.
And that's when we can confusethe impact they are legitimately
having not legitimately thatthey are having on us for their
intention. So that's one of thefirst gaps for sure. We fall
into and And, and I think thatpoint that they're not thinking
about us, you know, we'resitting there worried that
(10:04):
they're, they're not eventhinking of us, I read this, I
don't know how many years ago inour 30s 40s and 50s, we worry
about what other people think ofus. In our 60s, we stop worrying
about what people think of us.
And in our 70s, we realize thatwe're never thinking about us in
the first one. And so, you know,it's the same idea. So that's
one big part, which is the firstquestion you asked. The second
(10:25):
question, though, is interestingas well, which is they saw what
I just said, and again, theresearch, you know, we can have
different frames for the samesituation. And so I might see
that as let's say, I'm new on ateam, let's say, I don't have as
much experience, let's say,internally, even I have some
(10:49):
insecurities. So multi factors,but I'm in that conversation
with you. And I'm now thinking,Hmm, you just gave me some
feedback, is my job at risk ismy livelihood and on and on and
on? And you who might have more,you know, seniority, more
(11:14):
experience, more confidence,more many things. More
understanding of how businessworks, or doesn't work and how
this culture is or isn't,whatever, so many factors. You
might be seen it as no, this isjust business, I'm just giving
you back. It's nothing more thanthat something personal. So it's
interesting how again, we canconstrue something as very
(11:37):
personal or not personal. Andbecause of that, it said, we can
be two different conversations.
I think my job is at stake here.
Like, no, I just need to getthis done. And by the way, I'm
not even saying that it means wedon't take into consideration
emotions. Of course it will anyeffective leader would. But
(11:58):
that's just more data moreinformation. It's not
necessarily or it shouldn't bethe driving factor in what gets
communicated, whataccountability gets created or
not. What, what kind oflistening Do you want to really
tune into, so that person andyou with them can help manage
(12:20):
their brain manage that emotionso they can hear you? So
there's, I mean, this is whyyour podcast is so awesome, is
there's so many levels, so manylayers. And this is some of the
hardest stuff we do as humans.
And so it kind of behooves us toget a little bit better at it.
Dr. Leah OH (12:38):
Yes, thank you.
That's it. I think a lot oftimes the communication, my
brain will literally almostshort circuits, I think about
all of the complexity and thelayers and the factors at play.
And I always tell people, it'samazing. People arrive at
organizations or log on atapproximately the same time like
that this work gets done becauseof how much complexity there is.
(13:02):
In one thing I was smiling aboutwhen you're talking. When I was
a PhD student, I taught a publicspeaking course. And I wish I
had the exact citation. But inour textbook, and this was I
think it was a citation from the40s or 50s. Because now, you
know, it would be frowned uponto bring an air horn in your
(13:24):
classroom and just randomly letit go off when you want to. But
what the gentleman was doing wasonce the students heard the air
horn, they had to write downimmediately what they were
thinking about. In this is whenthere were speeches going on,
the teacher was instructing andit was like essentially lunch.
What am I doing after afterschool? Like does he or she Are
(13:46):
they like me, right? So all ofthese things completely outside
of what was going on. And I lovethat that's how this public
speaking text started to say,this is a huge, huge moment for
you. But But someone's out therethinking about their sandwich,
or they're thinking about whatto do afterwards.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (14:11):
Like it's a great point chicks in me Hi,
chicks amis. Hi, which I know,you know, is workaround flowing,
they use a beeper system, less afoghorn, or a big trash horn.
But they literally, you know,they've had this and they've
done this for years where theybeat an individual and they
write down what they werethinking and 50% of the time,
they weren't thinking aboutanything that had anything
(14:31):
related to the moment. They'relost. By the way, that's why
mindfulness for anyonelistening, need to do
mindfulness, or you need to havesome internal technology.
Mindfulness is by far the moststudied the most effective, you
need to have some form ofinternal technology that says,
oh, maybe I'm not present rightnow. Or or my mind's wandering.
(14:56):
I don't have to believe everythought I have. Yeah, and so You
know, I love your story. That'sa great one. And I just sit
here. And I think for everyonelistening, what's the takeaway?
People are thinking aboutthemselves more than anything?
They're Yeah, they're moreworried, do I have something on
my clothes? You know, do I havesomething in my teeth? They're
(15:16):
not actually looking at usthinking about us that often.
And it's actually very, I hope,freeing for people. I agree. I
think the next level, I wouldeven suggest this the next
level. If we truly want to beexceptional, in our, how we live
our lives, our effectiveness,etc. Can we in that moment,
(15:37):
actually sit there and haveempathy for the person that
we're with and sit there go, Iwonder what their suffering is.
Because as soon as you can tuneinto that, yourself evaporates,
you don't think about yourself,you're more thinking, Oh, I
wonder if they had a toughmorning, Oh, I wonder what's
going on for them. And then allof a sudden, you can be in a lot
more of a service mentality, alot more of a serving energy.
(15:59):
And that's, by the way, nowyou're not thinking about me and
what I have to say, and theworries I have about this
presentation or whateverperformance moment we're facing.
That's actually the next level.
And again, this is all possibleto train on. Hmm. But it's got
to be disciplined practice, orelse, you know, none of us will
be able to do that. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (16:22):
Yeah. And I like that shifting from i to we.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (16:26):
Absolutely.
Dr. Leah OH (16:28):
So JP a, I'm sure you have heard every reason for
not wanting to engage in achallenging conversation. So
what are these obstacles thatpeople often will tell you?
Like? I would love to have thatconversation? I'd love to think
about this. But what? Fill inthe blank for us?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (16:53):
Yeah, I mean, like the reasons that people
don't have a conversation. Yeah.
Well, yeah, great question. Boy,so many reasons. And we're very
creative. We're exceptionalbeing creative for avoidance.
No, in our data, we find thatwhen you're facing a difficult
conversation, there's twoprincipal ways that we default.
(17:14):
And we call this our, ourpredictable default behavior. So
each of us has has a pattern.
When I work with athletes, I seethis not so much in
conversation, although itcertainly can be there. But when
they're facing pressure, kind ofwhat their pattern is. And so
this comes from our work withathletes, maybe originally, in
(17:37):
some ways to to look forpatterns, at least. And what's
interesting is, if I'm having tohave a conversation with you.
And I struggle with theseconversations. And just I need
to step even one point back you,I think, you know this, but we
(17:58):
did a study of 34,000 peoplewill, we found that there is
about 8% of what we don't wantto say it's the hard part of a
conversation, it's the mostimportant parts of the
conversation, it's the part thatmight have consequences for you.
And because now I'm having that,moving into that last 8%, I've
gotten past 85 and 90, gettingto 92. And as I move into the
(18:19):
last day percent, and I see thatyou're starting to get bit
triggered a bit, you know,emotional, because you see where
the where this conversation isgoing, you see the consequences.
I get infected by your motion.
And as opposed to stepping inand facing it. I do one of two
things, either, and this is 68%of us in our data, I avoid it.
(18:41):
And I come up with all thesecreative solutions, as you
pointed out, or let's say I'vebeen thinking about having this
conversation for a couple ofdays with you. I'm up at three
in the morning. And my mind andI'm thinking about it
ruminating, ruminating,ruminating. And now we're it's
(19:01):
10am or 11am. And I'm having aconversation with you. And I
just, you know, feel like okay,I finally got the courage to
actually speak up. And what do Ido I speak up. That's like the
worst possible thing I could do.
The single worst possible thingI could do, because I don't
(19:25):
really know what's on your sideof the bridge. I've jumped to
judgment based on less than 5%of the available information. I
feel certain and right. And it'sin that moment, especially where
we don't speak up. But we startby being curious that's part of
our model be curious, then speakup not speak up and be curious.
(19:46):
And it matters because you'regonna get us a whole you're
gonna give me a whole bunch ofinformation that I'm gonna go
Oh, that's it. I didn't knowthat. Huh? Oh, am I changed?
What I say in the speakingupside so be cute. As I speak
up, really matters. And so, insome ways, if we can sit there
(20:07):
and think, Okay, I'm having ahard conversation
what I'm really doing is gettingmore than 5% of available
information. I'm just going toreally stand in the Be curious
side. In some ways that mightmake it a lot easier for us to
(20:29):
think about contemplate having ahard conversation, which might
be a bit of an antidote to thecreative ways that we avoid. So
imagine everyone who'slistening, 62 thirds of us avoid
32% of us a third almost make amess, right? So that's the point
that I'm saying. So I've beenthinking about it all night. Now
I'm going to have theconversation. And now I'm going
(20:51):
to launch in i Come on way toostrong. I come in hot. And I
have impact I don't intend.
That's what we think of as that.
Other side. So of 60% of usavoid 32% of us make a mess.
Right, when we struggle with thelast 8% conversation,
Dr. Leah OH (21:08):
yeah. And I like the simplicity in being curious.
And then speaking up, I think ifwe speak up first, like you say,
we're coming in hot not thinkingabout it, then we can be curious
about the amount of damage we'vedone. And, you know, the
reverse, that sounds a lotbetter.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (21:27):
What it does, and by the way, in some ways. It
may not I might be grasping atstraws here, but I actually
think it's slightly takes thepressure off. If I'm gonna have
a conversation. I'm just goingto start by being curious. I
don't have to say anything. Butwe talked about it as having
kind of really twoconversations. Right? It you
(21:48):
know, in the first conversation,I'm actually making the
commitment not to speak mytruth. Right, I'm actually
sitting there thinking about,like in meeting one is just,
hey, help me understand Leo,what was going on that? Right?
And you might say, Well, what doyou think I'm trying to learn?
(22:10):
Right? And I'm just trying tolisten and try to be curious
whether you use that language ornot. That's what we're trying to
do. Because here's what happens.
If you're sitting there, I'masking you the question, I'm
being curious, but really, I'mjust waiting until I can speak
up, you're gonna sense that inme, you're gonna go. And that's
not going to make you feel lessanxious. I'm, my goal is to make
you feel less anxious, anxiousto make you feel safe enough to
(22:32):
be in the conversation. Now, Ican't control everything, of
course. But there's a bunch ofthings I can do. Ask questions
that helps you managed yourbrain increase, interestingly
enough, be curious. And thensay, you know, and this can be
unfulfilling for the otherperson will say, Okay, listen,
thank you. That's reallyhelpful. I'm going to think
(22:53):
about this. Let's talk againtomorrow. And even when I start
meeting two tomorrow, I'm like,So Leah, you know, we had a good
conversation yesterday, wasthere anything new that you
thought of since we talk? Okay,now I can, like you feel heard?
I have been curious. And look,none of us are perfect at this.
And now I can move to part two,which is speak up. Okay. So it
(23:14):
sounds like this is going on,this is going on? Great. You
know, from my side of thebridge, here's, here's how I'm
seeing things may be seen itdifferently. Here's what we're
trying to do to build theculture on our team, you know,
to have high accountability andfor what just happened, that's
not acceptable. And our behavioris not acceptable. And I think I
(23:36):
understand what went on for you.
But, you know, that's not whatwe're trying to build here. And
in fact, there's a whole bunchof ways, of course, that we can
kind of communicate that, whichis understand that I'm trying to
make, make you feel safe.
Control it all, but doeverything I can so that you
understand. I'm not on purpose,because your brain will go
(24:02):
there. As we already talkedabout. I'm trying to make you
recognize I'm not just trying torip you up for because I'm, you
know, sadist or masochist? Whichone is it when you want to
impart pain on someone else?
Dr. Leah OH (24:15):
I think it's a sadist. Yeah,
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (24:18):
there's a masochist. combined. That's
right. So so I don't want to, bythe way, you shouldn't probably
say it if you don't know theword less. noticable. Couldn't
be
Dr. Leah OH (24:28):
Googling right after. Exactly. Yes. And I
imagined to I don't know thisliterature. Well, but I imagined
when you're curious and askingquestions, and coming from a
place of listening that'sautomatically going to slow your
brain, which is can be reallyhelpful here. Mm hmm.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (24:48):
Absolutely. I mean, we have to manage
ourselves, manage others ifwe're a manager, people leader,
with the brain in mind. This isa big leap in the last 10 years
of management studies. We'restarting to recognize that, you
know, neuroscience has a place.
And, by the way, for a lot offolks, in organizations, I think
they walk away learning some ofthe stuff. So I think you know,
(25:13):
this, but you know, that's whatwe do we help organizations
create high performing culturesin months, not years. And so
that's like, that's our wholepurpose. And the thing is, is
that for when someone understatewhen they go through some of our
learning, they understand thebrain, how it works, all of a
sudden, they're like, Oh, myGod, you just described me,
(25:34):
that's helpful. But hopefully,they also understands,
understand that this explainsthe person who are they're
having a conversation with ordoing whatever with, you know,
we, our goal is to help, youknow, challenge people to become
students of human behavior. Soas soon as you get that, all of
a sudden, you almost don't evenneed the techniques and all of
(25:55):
the other stuff. I mean, we alldo we need to be prepared and
cetera, et cetera. But itbecause it all makes sense. It's
just like, kind of riding abike? Oh, of course, I'm gonna
be curious first, because I gotto help you manage your brain.
So it's not even like I have toOh, what's the next thing? No, I
just know, I can't come in andjust start launching, jump into
(26:16):
judgment be being certain versuscurious.
Dr. Leah OH (26:21):
Yes, yes. And they love that about your
organization. So he's think asan organizational scholar, if we
have more people immersed inhealthy, pro social, you know,
other oriented cultures, ourwhole lives would be so much
different. For sure, I mean, youknow that this is this is your
(26:41):
day in and day out? No, no, no,
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (26:43):
you're you're right. And I think the principal
goal of an organization is not,you know, to be nice to their
employees, it's not to be afamily, it's none of that it's
to grow a business that addsvalue. So you can employ more
people, you can just getwhatever results, you want to
fulfill whatever purpose youwant. But if you get all of this
(27:06):
stuff that you start torecognize how I go about doing
that, is completely different.
When I know the brain when Iunderstand what makes people
tick. So now it is to make themhave some experience in your
organization where they have avoice where they feel valued.
But that's not the goal. That'sa means to the goal. And that's
where sometimes I think,organizations, folks in HR get
(27:29):
it wrong. I think the goal is tomake people feel good. It's not
the goal is to be a family. It'snot. Right. So but but if but
again, if you understand how itall works together, then you'll
you sit, there you go, how, whywould I ever jump into command
and control? I might, becausethat's my default, because I
(27:50):
make a mess. But if I understandmyself, and I go, okay, that's
my default, I've got to have anantidote, I've got to have a
kind of coaching, I've got tohave whatever it is to help me
manage them. But at the end ofthe day, I kind of recognize
command and control is not goingor bullying or interrupting or
when I'm not giving people voicenot making people feel valued.
(28:11):
That's not actually going tohelp me get to my goal, which
is, whatever your goal is, yeah.
Because, you know, there's thisgreat Japanese proverb, which I
love. All of us are smarter thanany one of us. I love that.
Because it's like, that's whyyou want people engaged. That's
(28:33):
why you want them feelingcommitment, you know, employee
commitment, because you're like,I'm valued. I'm a voice, I feel
connected. And now because ofthat, I can be courageous, I can
speak up, I can do whatever itis, that's hard.
Dr. Leah OH (28:51):
Yep. So we put that investment in our people. And I
think two people fail to see thecompound of that and recognizing
that we get to that goal evenquicker, because then that's how
they treat our vendors and ouremployees, our customers. I
mean, it doesn't just stop withthe employee base. We're
(29:12):
transforming the way we'reinteracting with these external
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (29:15):
publics. It's a great point. I mean, our
reputation catches up to us. Howwe treat people, maybe not for
six months or a year or fiveyears, but eventually does.
Yeah, you know, like, whenyou're a leader, where it's
really just about you. Whenyou're not you. You might say,
(29:39):
you know, I represent you I likeyou can say a whole bunch of
things, but when people see overand over, that you're not really
interested in anything butyourself. In fact, you're may or
may not even be interested inthe company's goals. You're just
interested in yourself. Youknow, they're going to start
walking away.
Dr. Leah OH (30:00):
So JP, we've we've got the solid understanding of
tough conversations under ourbelt. And now I'd love to learn
more about your renowned system,the last 8% principle and
transforming those toughconversations.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (30:15):
Yeah. So, you know, this is our culture change
system. And there's a couple ofreally important points to know.
And again, people don't getthis. Like, there's a whole
bunch of myths. So first mythis. So actually, let me step
back and say this. For anorganization, we think our
(30:35):
strategy is our competitiveadvantage. It's not if you have
a good competitive a goodstrategy. People will copy it.
Right? Of course. So that's nota competitive advantage, right?
A point of difference. Peoplethink, Oh, our product, that's
going to be our competitiveadvantage. And again, it's
(30:57):
copyable. Yes, and even a wordcopyable.
Dr. Leah OH (31:02):
We can replicate it. Well, we should go with the
copyable.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (31:07):
Okay, so your strategies copyable, your
products copy? Well, the thingis not copyable is your culture,
and cultures, and there'sorganizations like oh, we want
to create HP, us have the HP waymany years ago, and people tried
to copy it or, you know, copyGoogle or copy whoever I mean,
we all you know, we all know thedifferent ones that people try
(31:29):
to copy. And that that'simpossible. And there's a whole
reason why, which I'll talkabout now. But it's impossible
to copy culture. And because ofthat, your culture becomes your
competitive advantage. It is thedifference maker, it's why you
can collaborate, and why you cando hard things and why you can
be innovative, and why you canbring on, you know, smart people
(31:53):
who can do great things likeit's not strategy copyable it's
not products copyable it isabsolutely cultural. So let's
dig into that a little bit. Whycan't your culture be copied
because of how its createdcultures? Not? Let's put, you
know, let's do an off site as asenior team and come up with
(32:13):
four or five values that wethink okay, that's our culture.
No, culture comes from the hardmoments culture comes from the
last 8% moments. Because whenwe're under pressure in the last
8%, there's more cortisol in ourbrain. Cortisol is a stress
hormone. One of the effects ofcortisol is that it sears in
memory in a more profound way.
And so, as a leader, you can begreat 92% of time, but now
(32:36):
you're in the last 8% situationwith your team. Everyone's got
more cortisol in their brain,let's say because it's last 8%
Literally, by definition, it's ahard moment, people are feeling
the pressure. Whatever decisionyou make, in that moment,
whatever behavior you engage in,that literally gets seared into
their brain. And that createsreally two things. One, your
reputation as a leader. Andnumber two, the culture on this
(33:00):
team, the silent signal thatsays this behavior is
acceptable, this behavior isrewarded on this team. And so
that's why culture is notcopyable. Because everyone has
different lasting presentsituations. And they deal with
it differently. So it's, it's,it's what people get wrong. So
(33:20):
that that's an important point.
Number one, number two, culturedoes not exist across
organizations is anotherfallacy. culture exists
principally on teams, that's thefundamental unit of culture.
It's why you can have twohospital floors doing the same
work, let's say oncology, withthe same values on the wall, in
(33:42):
the same hospital door, likeFlorida floor, right, like, not
even separated geographically,really. And you have staff that
go back and forth between thefloors. I've worked, I worked in
a couple of hospitals a coupleof times, and I've seen this,
that we've seen this definitelywith our clients. And yet you
(34:03):
even in those situations whereeverything's the same, including
the staff, there's onedifference, which I'll mention
in a second, but including thestaff that goes back and forth,
you can have completelydifferent cultures on the floor.
Why? Right? And what kind ofdifferent cultures you can have
some that are people areabsolutely happy to help pitch
in, even on their breaks. And onthe other people are seemingly
(34:24):
more selfish, you know, justdon't really care what's going
on for anyone else, butthemselves. They're not going to
pitch and give that extra kindof discretionary effort. What's
the difference? The onlydifference is you have managers
who do not float between onefloor or the other. Because it's
the manager that drives theculture on the floor based on
(34:44):
their modeling of hard momentsin the last 8% Because of the
cortisol effect. And so what'sinteresting is, you know, again,
organizations get it wrong.
They're like, Oh, culture existsacross the organization. No, oh,
here are the values these thisis our culture. No, no culture
comes from your hard moments.
That's why many people haveskills to manage their brain and
(35:04):
hard moments. And so that's whatcreates, and that's why it's not
copyable. That's why it is yourcompetitive advantage. And
that's why in our culture changesystem, the big aha, I think,
for a lot of people is thoselast 8%, those hard moments that
most people struggle with, theyavoid, they make a mess up, we
(35:24):
help them see it differently. Ithink you'll appreciate this,
Leah because you know, this kindof literature, but we help them
see differently not as somethingto fight or avoid or construe as
a negative. Last 8%, we wantthem to see differently, not as
the worst thing that couldhappen. But as something that
(35:45):
does happen, and is your biggestopportunity to transform
yourself and your, you know,leadership capability. But more
so the culture on your team. Solast 8%, is we call it the last
8% opportunity will as anorganization face hard things.
So how can you become the mostcourageous organization in your
(36:09):
industry, and create a culturewhere we will be uncomfortable,
because our default is toprotection, not risk. If you can
norm all of this and say, Look,in our organization, you're not
always going to be comfortable.
But that's okay. Because we wantto be what we call an upper
right hand quadrant culture,which is, you know, a high
(36:30):
performing culture that has bothhigh connection and high
courage. So we have a map thatkind of described all this.
That's, and so that's, you know,and so fundamentally, we say,
people, either it's up to you,not the CEO or CHRO, it's up to
you to actually own the cultureon your team. Here's the
structure to do it not even withus as like a third party vendor,
we give them the tools, so theycan do it, using some, you know,
(36:52):
innovative approaches, like fourweek sprint and some other
things. And we're so, so excitedabout this, as you can probably
tell,
Dr. Leah OH (37:03):
yeah, that is I love just the the reframe. This
doesn't have to be scary. Thisdoesn't have to be a negative.
But it's an opportunity todemonstrate how we do things
here.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (37:13):
Right? Right.
And by the way, it's not like,you have a choice, because you
will face hard moments. Everyonedoes. So it's almost funny, some
CEOs and CHR OHS that getoverwhelmed, like I got to own
the culture, you don't, but theythink they do. And then they
think, Oh, my gosh, how do we dothis across a large
organization. And then so theydo nothing. And I understand
(37:35):
that, by the way, like, as apresident of our company, I know
that feeling, I gotta get thingsdone, I don't have time to work
on the culture on the team, Itotally get that. But here's the
thing. The hard moments aren'tgoing away. So you might put
your head in the sand and say,We're not going to focus on
culture, but your culture isbeing created right now.
Everyone listening on your team,when you hit a hard moment, your
(37:59):
culture is being created cocreated, really. So you don't
really have a choice. And sowhat happens is culture gets
created by default, not bydesign.
Dr. Leah OH (38:11):
By default, not by design. Exactly. So GP I love
the system, a organizationalbrain, my communication, and my
leadership is just all lit up.
And I thinking how do you howcan we kind of lean into this
into other areas of our life? Sowhether it's, you know, a
contractor we've hired orsomething with a family member
(38:32):
or friend, is there a way we cancan apply these ideas to these
tough conversations?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (38:39):
Yeah, absolutely. So to really see
them for what they are thebiggest opportunity to transform
ourselves, when we go through ahard moment, it's our biggest
opportunity to transformourselves, and the biggest
opportunity to transform arelationship. So number one, we
(39:01):
have to really buy into that. Ifwe don't then forget it, you
know, turn off the podcast now.
You know, number one, numbertwo. It won't be easy. You will
struggle because of the way thebrain is. And you almost have to
accept that you will be somewhatincompetent in the early going
(39:24):
of doing this. It's not going tomagically happen that you're
going to get effective at thiskind of thing. And if you can
see every opportunity to haveone of these conversations as an
opportunity to practice in orderto transform, then time we'll
have like a year from now, ifyou and I were on the call,
we're having the sameconversation and listeners are
(39:45):
listening and listeners if youspent the last year every time
you could possible, have thisconversation being a little less
competent at first, or morecompetent in the middle and
maybe more common At the end, ina year, you actually are going
to get better. And becauseyou're better now you're going
to have a confidence becauseyou're going to have a
(40:07):
confidence, you will be lookedon very differently by the
people around you. And this willdrive a lot of your career. So
that you just kind of buy intothis to start, right. It's like,
you know, when I work withathletes, I don't work with them
for a day or a week or month,it's yours, it takes time, right
to kind of create these neuralpathways in our brains, there's
no easy fix, sorry, everyone, noeasy fix. Having said that,
(40:27):
there's a whole bunch of thingswe can do start a mindfulness
practice, today, 10 minutes aday, we know that changes the
brain helps you see yourthoughts for what they are, and
helps you not be as affected bypressure. Number one, so do
that. Number two, that we're inthe golden age of education,
like there's so much like thispodcasts are so much great
(40:47):
opportunity to listen and learn.
You got to be an aggressivelearner, and jump in and do
that. So that's kind of numbertwo. Number three, I would if
listener, if you're in like apod doesn't even matter what
kind of job. But if you canspend other money on coaching,
(41:10):
though, doesn't have to be apaid coach, it can be a good
friend. But generally speaking,it's better for a coach because
they have expertise. To loseyour coach, I slightly joke but
not really. For the last 13years, I've either had a coach
or therapist when my life isgoing well to coach when it's
not going so well as atherapist. But But in either
case, it's that person who I canbounce an idea off and say, Hey,
(41:34):
I'm struggling with this. And weliterally walk through it. So
there's a whole template. Imean, that's what our
organization does is we helppeople learn the whole template
of how to do all of thesethings. So you can show up. And
yes, you will feeluncomfortable, but you'll show
up with a little bit moreconfidence to step in and do the
hard thing. What's amazing isthat you do it a few times, and
(41:55):
you start to go, Oh, that wasn'tso bad. And you had said this
earlier, huh? You know, I hadmade this big story up about how
they were thinking or what'sgoing on. And in fact, they
weren't even thinking thatthey're like, they're upset
because, you know, stuff wasgoing on their family or that
look on their face was they hadgas, you know, like, whatever.
(42:17):
That's a little too. You know,it's just like, oh, you know,
like, and this is where we needto become students of human
behavior. Hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (42:26):
Yeah. So I think there's so much power to and
acknowledging that it's likelyto feel uncomfortable that it's
likely to be a struggle. Andthat takes me back when I had my
first child is looking at aparenting podcast. And the woman
said, It's hard because it'shard, not because you're doing
it wrong. And it was like alight bulb epiphany moment,
(42:49):
like, Oh, yes, this is justhard. And it's okay. It doesn't
mean that I'm failing here. Andit does get easy. You build up
some confidence, but yourecognize this might always be a
challenge. And if we recognizethat, it becomes a lot easier,
absolutely. Perfect. So I havetwo, two final questions for
(43:11):
you. And they cannot. So I'm thecommunicative leader, I really
like to leave listeners withvery tangible, pragmatic,
pragmatic leadership orcommunication tips that they can
integrate. Right away. So myfirst question for our leaders
out there managers, directors,supervisors, and then for our
(43:35):
employees of all ranks, so whatdo you what do you want to leave
them with?
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (43:39):
Yeah. When you're needing to have a hard
conversation, first andforemost, be curious. Then speak
up. Be curious. Speak up, becurious, speak up. In a meeting,
as you start a cardconversation, really dig into
being curious as opposed tocertain you have an idea about
(44:03):
what's going on, you're probablywrong. So get more than 5% of
available, availableinformation. To me that's like,
absolutely critical. The otherthing I would say is this, this
(44:24):
a really helpful tip, that helpsme a lot. And it may because
it's slightly out of context. Itmay sound funny joke, folks, but
it'll probably make sense. Whenwe start that conversation, so
I've been curious. Now I'm gonnaabout speak up to actually start
(44:45):
with a little bit ofvulnerability. So Leah, if you
and I are having a conversation,I've been curious. I'm really
trying to understand whathappened in that meeting. So
this is the second big tip. It'sto start with Haley. I loved it.
I really want to have aconversation about this, but I
have to tell you, this is a beenvulnerable part. I'm a little
nervous, I'm anxious, because Idon't want to upset you. Or I
(45:07):
don't want to have you be upsetwith me. I value our
relationship. So I'm a littleanxious right now. And even just
doing that, all of a sudden,you're like, oh, like your heart
slightly. And you're like, Oh,he's not trying to cut me off at
the knees. In fact, he's feelinga bit nervous and anxious right
now. And that changes. How yousee my intention in this moment
in that matter. So two things,two things, listeners, be
(45:31):
curious, speak up. And they willas you initiate the
conversation, especially theSpeak Up part. Name, how you're
feeling? Mm hmm. You know, nameit say, No, I'm feeling
whatever. Like, for me, that'soften what I feel. So that's why
it's well practiced. Because Ido want Pete, you know, and I'm
(45:52):
an avoider by the way, like, I'mthe avoider, make a mess. I'm an
avoider. So for me, it's like,it takes me a while to actually
have a hard conversation. ButI've really learned to start
with that being a bitvulnerable. And look, at the end
of the day, we can't controlwhat another person is going to
do. But this increases theprobability that it will be
successful.
Dr. Leah OH (46:14):
And just think that the power especially if we have
a formal leader says, I justneed to let you know going into
this and feeling a littleanxious, or I really value this
relationship. And so I'm feelingnervous. Absolutely. Yeah, we're
role modeling that, you know,this is part of the workplace,
like you say, We're shapingculture in such a positive ways.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (46:35):
Yeah, exactly. And I think that's
another that's actually a reallygreat point as well. So when
you're vulnerable listener, justsay, Hey, I'm a little anxious,
you know, I don't want you toupset you get you upset with me
what I'm doing this because Ireally take my job as a leader
seriously. And I think these arethe moments as we all talked
about, we want to build thislast 8% culture. These are the
moments that create, you know,our culture. And so even though
(46:57):
I'm a bit uncomfortable, I'mstill gonna have that
conversation because of thatreally important purpose. And so
I hope you can see that and hopewe can have this conversation in
a, in a good way.
Dr. Leah OH (47:07):
Yeah, I think it's taking a lot of what we already
have playing in our minds, thatis invisible. And then I think
to to just make that clear forothers. Absolutely. Excellent.
Well, JP, thank you so much forbeing on the communicative
leader. It was really adelightful conversation. I've
(47:28):
learned so much and I know ourlisteners will as well.
Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry (47:32):
Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. Thank
you, Leah, the good work you'redoing, you know, I know it's
making a difference. So it wasmy pleasure to be on.
Dr. Leah OH (47:41):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, communicate with intention
and lead with purpose. Andlooking forward to chatting with
you again soon on thecommunicative leader.
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