February 26, 2024 • 36 mins
Pam has been helping individuals and corporations improve their writing for the past 30 years.
Pam reframes writing from just another item on the to-do list to problem solving.
This is so powerful!
When viewed as problem solving, we see the need for expertise, for strategy, and for planning.
Pam also discusses the ROI when written communication is effective, and calls attention to the time and frustration saved when processes are in place.
Connect with Pam: LinkedIn, Pam Hurley; Pam@hurleywrite.com; Cell: 910-233-7670
Until next time, communicate with intention and lead with purpose.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Leah OH (00:00):
Pam Hurley is joining us today and the
communicative leader. Pam is theowner of Hurley Write Inc, and
for the past 30 years, she'sbeen empowering professional
corporate teams to become betterwriters and speakers. Her wealth
of experience has allowed her tolead within the intersection of
writing technology andleadership. And today we're
(00:20):
going to talk about writing asproblem solving and as the
unsung hero of businessefficiency. Hello, and welcome
to the communicative leaderhosted by me, Dr. Leah
Omilion-Hodges. My friends callme Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of
Communication and a leadershipcommunication expert, and the
(00:41):
communicative leader. We'reworking to make your work life
what you want it to be. Pam,thank you for joining us today.
Before we dive into ourconversation, can you introduce
yourself and your experience inboth technical writing and
leadership roles? Absolutely.
Pam Hurley (01:00):
Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited
to be to be on the podcast. Somy name is Pam Hurley, I have a
PhD in technical writing fromthe University of South
Carolina. And I started thebusiness about 35 years ago when
I was only 10. Just kidding. Seethe video? Yeah, that's a lie.
(01:21):
But so I think that's the CEO ofthe company for the past 30
something years. And so, youknow, as a leader of the
company, running your ownbusiness, you learn quite a bit.
So yeah, so that's, that's,that's my background, I started
in academia, and then started,we started the business.
Dr. Leah OH (01:42):
Yeah, yeah. And that's great. And I appreciate
all that you bring to the table,both with the the technical
expertise, the research thatyou've done, and then all of the
time that you spent embodyingleadership. So with that in
mind, Pam, I'm wondering, youknow, a few things about
technical writing in today'sorganizations. So could you
(02:04):
define the role for us? And thentell us how leadership kind of
interacts or plays into thatrole? Sure,
Pam Hurley (02:10):
absolutely. So it's it. What's interesting to me is
that we have a lot ofprofessionals who are ill
prepared to do any kind oftechnical writing in the
workplace. So we were withprofessionals, we call them non
writers, because they don't wantto, they don't want to write,
and they get in, you know, theyget into their industry, and
(02:33):
they're like, oh, gosh, I haveto write, I was talking to an
engineer the other day, and heactually he, and I've heard this
sentiment before. It's like, Ididn't want to write all I
wanted to do was be an engineer.
So it's, it's kind of aninteresting thing. So what
happens is that, you know,folks, graduates, graduate from
college, Masters PhD, and theyget into the workplace, and they
(02:54):
feel, oh, all of a sudden, Ihave to do technical writing,
well, I only had one semester ofthat in college. And then the
expectation is by theorganization is that there isn't
they're prepared to do that. Sothen what happens, of course,
is, you know, leadership shouldbe actively onboarding folks to,
(03:15):
to be able to write particulardocuments. And they don't do
that. And so because we have anexpectation that they know how
to write with Buffer, we don'thave a standard for that. And so
it's kind of an interestingdynamic in that, you know,
(03:35):
leader should be taking a moreactive role in ensuring them
helping people on board in anyparticular organization, and
learn how to write the kinds ofdocuments that the organization
expects.
Dr. Leah OH (03:56):
Yeah, and that's, that's such a great point,
because they think you're right,there's this expectation, you've
you've earned this degree withbachelors, masters, match
masters, PhD. So we think, ofcourse, you can write but you
can't necessarily write well,right. Well, for the audience in
which you're expected to do so.
Exactly. Yeah. Really, reallygreat insight, Pam. And so when
we're thinking about being asuccessful technical writer,
(04:20):
what are some key qualities orskills that you believe in, you
know, your expertise make forthat successful technical
writer? Right. So theprofessionals
Pam Hurley (04:33):
we work with are, you know, aren't necessarily
technical writers, but they haveto write technical documents. So
there's that distinction. So oneof the things they have to be
able to do well, is to treatwriting as problem solving. And
they don't write because writingis often treated in in an
(04:56):
organization as well. This isjust something you have to do
but it's really not Importantor, you know, it is important,
but we're not going to train youhow to do it. And it's that kind
of thing. So it's really aninteresting thing in that
companies will pay lip serviceto this idea. We want people to
write well, but they don't givethem the tools to do that.
(05:18):
Right. And so one of the thingswe talk a lot about in our
workshops is you have to treatwriting as problem solving,
writing as problem solving onpaper. So just as you would
approach any problem you solvein the workplace, or in your
personal life, or whatever,writing is exactly the same
thing. But it's not treated thatway. So strategy and planning
(05:42):
are the two most importantthings that any that any writer
can do. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (05:47):
Yes. And I imagine them when you use that language,
when you help them with thatframe, it becomes a lot more
accessible to people whopreviously just saw it as some
output or something they had tocheck off their list.
Absolutely.
Pam Hurley (06:01):
Absolutely. Because because the pizza professionals
we work with, are there alreadygreat problem solvers. Let's be
honest, if they weren't greatproblem solvers, they wouldn't
be working in the fields thatthey do. But they've just never
been introduced, introduced tothe idea that you know, the
writing that they do, they'resolving a problem and trying to
communicate a particular messageto a specific audience for a
(06:23):
particular outcome, or action.
And to your point, yeah, we gothrough the steps of problem
solving with them. And then whenthey understand that just it
does tend to make it a lot moreaccessible and understandable
for them.
Dr. Leah OH (06:35):
Yeah, very, very cool. Pam, I love that. And so
my follow up, you've kind ofalready touched on some of
these. And I'm wondering howthese key qualities or skills
that helped make someone abetter writer? How do those same
qualities contribute to thembeing an effective leader?
Pam Hurley (06:52):
Well, yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's
definitely a parallel, right,because leaders are involved in
solving problems. It's the samesame kind of idea. What's the
problem? Oh, so I'm trying tosolve and how do I go about it.
And so effective leaders solveproblems, and they come up with
multiple solutions to solvethose problems. And so the same
thing, same thing is true withwriting or communication. When
(07:14):
you think about how do I solve aproblem? A lot of it depends on
who am I communicating with?
What do I know about them? I'veheard as having this discussion
few of our clients yesterday,and we were talking about anyone
who has an email, but neither,you know, you have to know how
your audience is going to reactto the information that you're
(07:35):
providing. So that you can thenstructure the email in such a
way that speaks to them. And soleaders have to do that as well.
It's funny, I was just lookingat LinkedIn, and this guy got
laid off from Google, and I'mlooking at this this layoff
notice, and it's just, it's justterrible. It's about Oui oui,
oui, oui, oui, instead of yourear, seek it, we got to do this,
(07:58):
or we got to do that and get tothat, and then it goes, and hey,
pick up these resources to helpyou. Instead of thinking about,
you know, not that Google. Ishouldn't say cares is the wrong
word. But they should butanyway, you know, layoffs or
layoffs are, you know, aredifficult thing. But you also
(08:20):
have to think about, you know,long term, how am I How am I
going to be perceived, and wesee this all the time with these
PR disasters, you know, fromthese major companies, and it
live is just how they workthings and how they, you know,
how they let people go, andthese kinds of things that speak
to speak to leadership? Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (08:45):
Yeah, yeah, you're right in talking about, you
know, when you're saying that Iwas thinking, they just didn't
finish thinking through theproblem solving, right? They hit
on some of the high points, ofcourse, but without all of that
due diligence, then we caneasily look at it and say, Ooh,
this, you know, you have thatvisceral reaction, like, this
(09:06):
just doesn't feel right. Thishas a yucky, elegant, icky feel,
because it didn't hit the mark.
That didn't hit the mark.
Pam Hurley (09:13):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And you think, well, a
company like Google, do theycare? Do they? Do they need to
care? You know, maybe not, Idon't know, kind of Google rules
a role, I guess. Yeah. You know,you also think about things
like, you often have to thinkabout big things like, you know,
(09:34):
long term, how are you going tobe perceived? And those kinds of
things, and we talk a lot aboutthat, you know, in our workshops
as well. A lot of it is abouthow you're perceived in the
workplace. And so a person whocan communicate well in writing
is not perceived as being ascompetent as someone who can.
Yep,
Dr. Leah OH (09:54):
exactly. Exactly. I made me think I knew someone who
would say good Morning in anemail, but it would be morning
MO You are like you're literallysaying Good grief. This is why
you are communicating. Andagain, really intelligent high,
(10:14):
you know, many degrees. Buttaking the time that
communication fell below him, Ithink it just wasn't something
that he believed needed his fullattention. It's like, no, let's
backtrack. Let's unpack this alittle bit.
Pam Hurley (10:30):
Ya know, to your point. I mean, you think and you
know, one little word. Yeah,Miss Val misuse. And you're
like, This guy's got all thesedegrees and everything, but uh,
sorry. Oh, gosh. I mean,exactly. Yeah. Take a minute, as
you said, yeah, the minute, youknow, when you make sure that
your communication is up to par,and that you've taken the time
(10:52):
and people are going to perceiveyou as thoughtful and things
like that. Little Heroes like,oh, they just take the time and
not they're not they're notdiligent, I mean, speaks all
kinds of issues.
Dr. Leah OH (11:05):
I agree. I truly do not ascribe the word experts.
Even if they are in the certainrates, that is not my immediate
adjective that I go to when Ihit when I'm seeing that.
Exactly. This is a perfectsegue, Pam. So I know you have
this idea. And I love this, thatyou talk about writing as the
(11:25):
unsung hero of businessefficiency. And I love that. So
can you kind of tell us moreabout this kind of what went
into your thought process? Andwhat this looks like in though
in an organization? Oh,
Pam Hurley (11:39):
absolutely. Yeah. So this is, I'll make it short,
because it can be very long. Butone of the things that that we
find is that people waste atremendous amount of time and
energy, writing poor documents,reviewing and then you have
these constant iterations,because there's no process in
(12:01):
place. So that people are onboarded, people know what that
you know, people have peopleknow what's expected up in terms
of their writing, the reviewprocess is streamlined. There's
a certain number of iterations,all this kind of stuff. So it's
just kind of like the wild wildwest. In that way, I'm gonna
write something and then I'mgonna write it for Leah, and
(12:22):
you're Leah's gonna mark it upand back, and then oh, he has
left? No, I have to write forBen. So people are constantly
writing to this movie target,instead of understanding that
readability studies tell us whatgood writing is. And that
applies to every document inevery audience, so it doesn't
matter who you're writing for.
Right? As long as you haven'thave. That sounds contradictory.
(12:44):
But what I mean by that issimply that the concepts of good
writing remain the same. And soeven if Ben says, Oh, I just
like bullets. Okay, well, thatdoesn't mean that that's
everything should be bulletedthat just because Vince says
that's what he first. So youknow, a lot of these
(13:05):
organizations, they just don'thave a process in place, which
creates this chaos when it comesto writing, there's a lot of
time and money and time andmoney wasted. I don't know if
you've ever read writing fordollars writing to please. But
it's a book by Joseph Campbell.
And he has all these great casestudies in there about the
amount of money thatorganizations have saved by
(13:27):
rewriting and things like that.
I mean, there's a real, there'sa real ROI on writing and
reviewing, and companies justdon't just don't realize it.
Dr. Leah OH (13:38):
Yes, yes, you are.
You're sorry, it's I think it'sstill seen as a soft skill. And
everyone says, of course, lipservice, I want this weakness,
this is so important. But in myexperience, it oftentimes stops
there. And as you're pointingout, and I think two drafts,
right, so someone will beworking in Google Drive, someone
will be working on a copydownloaded to their hard drive,
(14:00):
you know, when we have theselarge teams, and then we also
include those rewrites and otherpreferences and and you're
right, everyone there has spenta whole day if not more, on
something that, you know, we
Pam Hurley (14:16):
work with a client recently, and they were using
slack as their as their way tomake comments on people's
drafts. A really slack commentsand it's just like, what you're
treating it like Slack if andyou're not treating it as a
review, like using Track Changesin Word and that kind of thing.
(14:36):
So to your point, you have tothink about what what is the
medium that people are using toget these things accomplished?
So from using slack that channeldoes not lends it lends itself
well to making comments onpeople's writing. It's the same
thing we see with PowerPointslide. We have a we have a
client recently and they'reusing PowerPoint for their
(14:58):
proposals and whatpresentations, not that that's
necessarily a bad thing. Butthere are two different uses.
And so what that requires isthat we have a different
PowerPoint for proposals, and wehave a different PowerPoint for
the presentations. And peoplewere actually when they were
doing their oral presentationswith these PowerPoints, people
are getting up and walking out.
The door higher up in thegovernment nap. No, it's not
(15:24):
simply this job. Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (15:30):
exactly. And so this is that is a perfect
example for this next question.
So and you might even tease thatone out a little more. Imagine
you have others. And I'mwondering if you could share a
specific instance, from yourexperience where we have
effective writing that has ledto improved outcomes?
Pam Hurley (15:50):
Oh, we have so many case studies or badly. I mean,
it is it is we have case studyafter case study after case
study. And I will tell you thatmost of our business is repeat
business. And there's a reasonfor that I mean, company's
particular virus. So we have Iwas working on a case study.
Yeah, yesterday, and it was apharma company. And they said
(16:12):
that their compliance hasincreased by about 3%. Because
we help them with their SOPs. Soit's, it's things like that some
of it is, you know, competencelevels, we measure competence as
well. Competence levels aretypically up and rest of the
organization organizations we'veworked with. So a lot of it is,
(16:33):
you know, long term kinds of,you know, following defaults,
three months, six months, thatkind of thing, and have asked
them to measure those things forus in terms of what they're
seeing some of it's anecdotal,but some of it is real, you
know, asking asking them about,you know, the number of
iterations you're going throughthe reviews are going through,
we have a cut down the time,that kind of thing. So we have
(16:56):
Yes, lots of case studies onthat for sure. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (17:01):
I mean, if we just think a 30% increase in
compliance, I mean, everycompany is like, wow. Yeah,
that's huge. Yeah. That'sincredible. Pam. So this is in a
probably in line with the SOPsyou're talking about, and some
of these other, you know, Meteordocuments that you're helping
(17:23):
organizations with? We know alot of times as technical
writing, we have jargon, we havereally complex concepts. So how
can either writers or those, youknow, employees who are serving
that technical writing function?
How can they communicateeffectively with both technical
and non technical team membersor audiences?
Pam Hurley (17:46):
That that is a great question. So what most folks
less professionals we work withtend to do is they tend to
communicate, so they tend toassume. So I'm going to assume
that you know what I mean, I'mgoing to assume that you
understand this jargon, I'mgoing to make all these
assumptions. And they don't dothat because they're lazy, but
they do that, because that's theeasiest thing to do. And quite
(18:09):
frankly, a lot of them haven'tbeen taught any, any different.
This is what we did. And so oneof the things we talk a lot
about is writing so that, youknow, somebody who is unfamiliar
with the topic can understandit. Now, that doesn't mean just
jargon, and that kind of thatkind of thing else, I mean,
structuring paragraphs andsentences, according to what
(18:31):
mutability studies tell us, ishow readers read. But yeah,
people do tend to and then I'mgonna use the biggest word I
possibly can. Because it makesme sound smart. And if you think
about the way academia teachespeople that 100% Yeah, you know,
let's get right to Soros. Yeah,let's find a basin and demand
(18:56):
for a particular word. When allthat does is just confuse the
issue. Use the word over andover and over again. Yes, yes,
you should, because you'retrying to drive home a point.
And when you switch terminology,which is something we see a lot,
when you switch terminology, allyou're doing is raising
questions on the part of thereader, your your, your your
(19:16):
objective, as a writer is toguide readers, you're the
Sherpa, and you're takingreaders on the journey. And if
the reader comes to me directlyinclusion that is on you, that
is not on the reader. And I wenton a tangent there, but
Dr. Leah OH (19:31):
thanks, X. Yeah, yep. No, I really appreciate
that. And I think it shows theresponsibility of writing then a
lot of people again, when theykind of dismiss us, and this is
just the last thing you need todo on a checklist for a project
that really short changeseverything.
Pam Hurley (19:49):
Absolutely. It absolutely does. Yeah, and
that's what a lot of peopleviewing one of the things you
know, we talk with our clientsis the document is the
deliverable, because it doesn'tmatter what We'll do behind the
scenes if you can't report thatin a way that your reader can
understand that take upproduction doesn't really matter
which did.
Dr. Leah OH (20:08):
Exactly. And so a follow up to that. So what role
so the title leaders andorganizations, whether it's a C
suite or at the manageriallevel, how can they help to, you
know, enhance the role ofcommunication and technical
writing? What is kind of theirresponsibility in changing the
(20:29):
way that their teams or theirorganizations see this part of
the process? Yeah, absolutely.
Pam Hurley (20:35):
Number one, they should value it, and show their
team that they that is valued byeither getting them help,
whatever that is, whether that'sa writing course, or purely
right, whether that is mentoringit within the organization, or
whatever it is, you've got toshow, you've got to show your
team that you value it by givingthem the tools that they need,
(20:58):
it's kind of amazing, when youthink about, you know, I'm going
to become an engineer, and I gointo this, this, whatever it is,
and they give me all the tools Ineed to do to engineer but they
don't give me the tools I needto improve my writing or enhance
my writing or figure out what Ineed in my writing. And that's
(21:18):
actually what I'm going to bedelivering. So it's it's, it's
mind blowing. So that's thefirst thing. And then the second
thing is they have to be rolemodels, in terms of
communication and really assess,how are you communicating? Are
your emails full of stuff thatdidn't take too long to get to
the point? Are your meetingsrambling? I mean, what how are
(21:42):
you modeling? Goodcommunication, because people
look to you to be that to bethat role model. So if you're
not taking the time to, youknow, to write good documents,
or give people the time theyneed to write if it's constantly
Oh, you got to get this done.
Dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk,dunk by five o'clock today, then
what you're telling people is, Idon't really value the writing
(22:05):
that the writing that you do,this is just something that has
to get done. Leaders need toreally assess and be very honest
with themselves about how areyou treating communication in
your workplace? And how are youmodeling good communication?
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (22:25):
that's really powerful. And I think too often,
those entitled leadershippositions, forget how impactful
their behaviors are. Yes. And Ijust I cringe as a leadership
communication scholar, whenpeople say, Do as I say, not as
I do, I'm like, no, no, you needto find yourself another
manager, or another mentor.
Yeah, that's exactly exactlywhat we're hearing here. Yeah,
Pam Hurley (22:51):
you know, it's, it's really interesting. We have a
client, they're consultants, andhe, we were talking. And he his
managers is terrible at givingfeedback. And so one of the one
of the managers comments wasmake this crisper. So it's less
or something. So he goes to themanager, I mean, he was making a
(23:14):
concerted effort to find outfrom his manager, what the
comment meant. Because if you'regiven a comment, you are
responsible for being able toexplain what those comments
read, and they've done. It'sjust kind of like, we're just
taking a manager and he said,What do you mean, and his
manager said to him, Yourpredecessor knew what that
(23:34):
meant? And I'm sorry. Wow. Yep.
Wow. I mean, it's just shocking,really, when you think about
some of the things and this guywas honest, he's like, I'm just
about to quit the job because ofmy manager. Yep. As a
consultant, they were involvedin writing reports constantly.
(23:55):
And he said, the feedback thatI'm getting from our managers,
so poor is causing me so muchstress that he was really
thinking about, about quittinghis job. And that's another
thing that leaders need tounderstand. If people have a
clear idea of what they'retrying to do, in terms of
communication, it can create alot of stress in the workplace,
(24:16):
animosity, and it's just, it'snot just this kind of thing
while we do it, it's the it'scommunication is the backbone of
any good organization.
Dr. Leah OH (24:31):
Exactly. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think the other thing is,a lot of our title leaders don't
think about two steps out threesteps, four steps out, in this
gentleman in this example,telling other friends and
they're like, No, I wouldn't doit. It's not I wouldn't use that
company. I would not fill thatrole. Right. So things like
(24:53):
that. And that word of mouth nowis the most powerful I think, in
my opinion, for me persuasionthat we're seeing. I
Pam Hurley (25:02):
think you're right.
Just like I was talking aboutthat Google layoff letter. I
mean, this I posted it Presidentposted it on LinkedIn. Yep. Yep,
exactly. All these people aregonna say, you're right. It's
not just this kind of, you know,in a vacuum. Yeah. You know,
social media and media andeverything else. And to your
point, people are going to talkto other people. And it's just,
(25:23):
it's, it's kind of, it's kind ofcrazy, dangerous, oftentimes
think about the communicationthat they are modeling in the
workplace.
Dr. Leah OH (25:35):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. So this got a really nice
follow up question. So what aresome of these common obstacles
that you have seen probably withpeople coming to you to learn
how to write better or to helpfacilitate better writing in
their organizations? So what aresome of these these really
common experiences that pop upwhen people are saying, our team
(25:59):
just can't communicate to ourvendors, or we can't communicate
to our audience or stereostakeholders, whatever that is?
Pam Hurley (26:07):
Yeah, so a lot of people just assume one of the
calls we get most often is,well, they can't communicate in
this because they need grammarHill. Grant, my help is the last
thing they need, I can promiseyou that your team's problem is
not grammar. Research has evenshown that teaching grammar
actually can worsen the way thatpeople write. So, you know, we
(26:31):
what we try to do with folkswith with with prospects is we
do what we call communication onit to help them understand where
are the problems coming from theother thing that they do, which
I think I've alluded to, is theytend to blame the riders. When
sometimes it's not the riders,it's the reviewers, because
people are getting conflictingfeedback. There's no real
(26:52):
assessment, they don't reallyknow what the problem is, they
don't even know at what leveltheir team is writing, right?
Where are they where they needto be. So there's this total
lack of recognition about any ofthat it's just an assumption or
a hunch. So that's one of thereasons that we do you know, we
do the communication audit withfolks. Get in there, figure out
(27:16):
what the real problems are,present the findings to them.
And then they can do with thosefindings, what they will, they
will hire us great if they wantto do something great, but at
least they didn't have a have abasic understanding of where
where the issues are, and thenthey can begin to fix them. Mm
hmm. Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (27:33):
that's, that's so great that you start with the
audit to help them see. BecauseI think you're right when,
especially in organizations,high stress and a lot of
pressure teams andorganizations. So when it's not
going well, it's a lot easier topoint fingers and say, This is
the tip of the iceberg. This iswhat I think it must be. So with
(27:54):
that in mind, Pam, are there acouple? You know, if someone
just came to you and said, ourcommunication is not working? Do
you have like one strategy ortwo strategies or tips for
someone to do right away to kindof assess that or overcome a
challenge?
Pam Hurley (28:12):
Well, one of the things we get we try to do is to
get them to allow us to do thecommunication audit. But if they
don't do that, what I mean andagain, they have to be really
honest about the writing thatthey're doing. The onboarding
that they're doing, how are theyonboarding P Hilmi? Do you have
(28:33):
an onboarding program are youjust, you know, I was talking to
a client the other day, andhe's, he's had, I had to spend
so much time on my own, tryingto figure out what this
organization wants for me interms of my writing. And that
just shouldn't be I mean, hesaid, I had no idea I was just
kind of left on my own. And sowe struggling to so be really
honest, do you have anonboarding? I mean, what does
(28:55):
that look like? If you don't?
Why not? Yeah, it's not thatdifficult to institute but is it
just kind of willy nilly and payhim to document figure it out
kind of thing, which is whatpeople are going to do this, you
know, either either copy andpaste or cut. Use that as a
moment and pace. But so that'sthe first thing you got to be
(29:16):
really honest about what yourissues are. And are you a good
leader and he was a model? Areyou are you modeling good
communication? Are you givingpeople the time they need to
write, which is a big one, youknow, there's to your points.
We're busy, we're rush, we'reboth, okay. Well, maybe there's
opportunities that you can givepeople to spend more time
(29:36):
writing because writing takestime to be proficient at it, it
takes time. It's not somethingyou can just dash off.
Dr. Leah OH (29:46):
Yeah. And in my experience, and I imagine you've
seen this, too, excuse me, it's,you know, we invest some time
now, but we save a lot of timelater. Once we establish these
processes are we No, we givepeople the tools that they need
to be successful.
Pam Hurley (30:04):
That's 100%.
Correct, man. And that's whatpeople don't get. They want that
they want that quick fix. I'mhere to tell you, there's no
quick fix with writing andpeople are all gone about AI.
I'm telling you, AI is notenough fix machines. If you
think you don't know much aboutAI, you know, we're just not
there yet. There is no quickfix. Yeah, writing good writing
(30:25):
takes time, you've got to putthe time and effort into it. You
can get people proficient, youknow, a lot of people in you
know this as well as I do. SoOh, writing, writing is
something you're born with, oryou're not. No, it's not. That's
me crazy.
Dr. Leah OH (30:44):
Yep. I am with you on that. 100%. So with this in
mind, what what is ongoingprofessional development look
like when we're trying to becomethe best writers that we can be?
So that's a?
Pam Hurley (30:59):
That's a great, great question. So we have
within our program, we have acomplete program, right? It
starts with the audit. And thenwe have an LMS. And we have
webinars, and we have coaching.
And so we try to make sure thatpeople are able to practice
because writing good writingtakes practice, it's not
something you can just do forfive minutes. And we're done.
(31:20):
We're done good. And so we havea lot of a lot of things in
place for for writers tocontinue to hone their skills
can continue to get the expertfeedback. And again, we try to
do like before, I know, youknow, an after, and then
everything in between that theclient needs. So sometimes it's
office hours, we can walk, orsomething. Or webinars,
(31:43):
sometimes it's coaching, a lotof it just depends on the
climate debate.
Dr. Leah OH (31:50):
Yeah, and I think you're gonna, you're pointing
out the importance of reflectionin being a thoughtful writer and
communicator and recognizing,where do we feel competent? What
are areas that we feel shaky andneed a little feedback on? So I
love all those ideas youprovided? Right?
Pam Hurley (32:10):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Me, you've got to
be honest, you can't just assumethat you know what the problem
is?
Dr. Leah OH (32:15):
Yeah. So Pam, I have two final questions for
you. So I'm the communicativeleader, we like to leave
listeners with pragmaticleadership or communication tips
can be advice, it can be achallenge. So to that end, what
advice do you have for ourtitled formal leaders
Pam Hurley (32:35):
understand where your writers are and what they
need? That's, that's advice. Andthat's also a challenge, because
that's not an easy thing to do.
But you need to be really honestwith, with your writers where
they are, but also with yourreviewers. What does your review
process look like? And are youreviewers contributing to the
(32:57):
writing problem? Because manytimes they are we tend to put a
lot of faith and trust in ourreviewers. And sometimes they're
contributing to the problem.
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (33:10):
yeah, really, really important here, I think
that it needs to be a feedbackloop. And a lot of times, it's
not your
Pam Hurley (33:19):
right to do it to you, and you're gonna mark it
up. And then you know, insteadof the dialogue, everybody has a
dog in the fight. But that's nothow we how we treat our
documents to your point, likeeverybody has a dog in the
fight. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (33:35):
Yeah. Final question for you. So we just
talked about some advice forformer leaders, whether you want
to leave employees all ranksacross all industries, you know,
same thing kind of advice, tipsor challenge for them. Yeah.
Pam Hurley (33:50):
So I think the advice is to understand that
writing is a process. And thatgood writing takes time. It is
not something that you can do infive minutes, give yourself time
and grace, to reflect as yousuggest, and to do all the
(34:11):
things that need to be done inthe writing process, instead of
just treating it as somethingthat I can just get done in 15
minutes. And here's the otherthing about that. And you can
cut this out if you want to,obviously, whatever. But anyway,
one of the things we find isthat when people do that, when
people don't give themselves thetime and space, they do what we
call overriding. So the documentis twice as long as it as it
(34:34):
would have been, should havebeen if they just taken the time
to reflect. So while they hatewriting, they're actually doing
more writing than they should ifthey had just taken the time to
plan reflect and that kind ofthing.
Dr. Leah OH (34:45):
Yeah, and that's so powerful, right? Especially if
you say okay, writing is this,you know, unfortunate part of my
job that I have to do. This isnot what I signed up for. It's
not what I went to school for,and then to actually spend more
time doing it than you need toOh, yeah, I mean, that's just,
that's some some irony for youthere. But it's SharePoint.
(35:07):
taking that step back andthinking about as a process. And
I will always think aboutwriting now is problem solving.
I think that's ingenious, and away to connect it with everyone
across any boundaries ordifferences or identities.
Because, I mean, truly, that'swhat we're trying to do.
Pam Hurley (35:25):
Absolutely. Yeah. It is as important as any task that
anyone does in the workplace inany given day. Unless you're a
brain surgeon, maybe it's not asimportant there.
Dr. Leah OH (35:38):
Cash, right, patient notes, right.
Pam Hurley (35:42):
That's right. That's right.
Dr. Leah OH (35:44):
Oh, oh, Pam, is really been a pleasure chatting
with you today. I want to thankyou for the incredible work that
you're doing and the way thatyou're helping to transform
organizations and employeesexperiences in such a positive
way.
Pam Hurley (36:00):
Thank you. And thank you very much for having me. I
certainly appreciate this greatconversation.
Dr. Leah OH (36:06):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, you indicate with
intention in lead with purpose.
Looking forward to chatting withyou again soon on the
communicative leader.
Pam Hurley is joining us today and the
communicative leader. Pam is theowner of Hurley Write Inc, and
for the past 30 years, she'sbeen empowering professional
corporate teams to become betterwriters and speakers. Her wealth
of experience has allowed her tolead within the intersection of
writing technology andleadership. And today we're
(00:20):
going to talk about writing asproblem solving and as the
unsung hero of businessefficiency. Hello, and welcome
to the communicative leaderhosted by me, Dr. Leah
Omilion-Hodges. My friends callme Dr. OH. I'm a Professor of
Communication and a leadershipcommunication expert, and the
(00:41):
communicative leader. We'reworking to make your work life
what you want it to be. Pam,thank you for joining us today.
Before we dive into ourconversation, can you introduce
yourself and your experience inboth technical writing and
leadership roles? Absolutely.
Pam Hurley (01:00):
Thank you very much for having me. I'm very excited
to be to be on the podcast. Somy name is Pam Hurley, I have a
PhD in technical writing fromthe University of South
Carolina. And I started thebusiness about 35 years ago when
I was only 10. Just kidding. Seethe video? Yeah, that's a lie.
(01:21):
But so I think that's the CEO ofthe company for the past 30
something years. And so, youknow, as a leader of the
company, running your ownbusiness, you learn quite a bit.
So yeah, so that's, that's,that's my background, I started
in academia, and then started,we started the business.
Dr. Leah OH (01:42):
Yeah, yeah. And that's great. And I appreciate
all that you bring to the table,both with the the technical
expertise, the research thatyou've done, and then all of the
time that you spent embodyingleadership. So with that in
mind, Pam, I'm wondering, youknow, a few things about
technical writing in today'sorganizations. So could you
(02:04):
define the role for us? And thentell us how leadership kind of
interacts or plays into thatrole? Sure,
Pam Hurley (02:10):
absolutely. So it's it. What's interesting to me is
that we have a lot ofprofessionals who are ill
prepared to do any kind oftechnical writing in the
workplace. So we were withprofessionals, we call them non
writers, because they don't wantto, they don't want to write,
and they get in, you know, theyget into their industry, and
(02:33):
they're like, oh, gosh, I haveto write, I was talking to an
engineer the other day, and heactually he, and I've heard this
sentiment before. It's like, Ididn't want to write all I
wanted to do was be an engineer.
So it's, it's kind of aninteresting thing. So what
happens is that, you know,folks, graduates, graduate from
college, Masters PhD, and theyget into the workplace, and they
(02:54):
feel, oh, all of a sudden, Ihave to do technical writing,
well, I only had one semester ofthat in college. And then the
expectation is by theorganization is that there isn't
they're prepared to do that. Sothen what happens, of course,
is, you know, leadership shouldbe actively onboarding folks to,
(03:15):
to be able to write particulardocuments. And they don't do
that. And so because we have anexpectation that they know how
to write with Buffer, we don'thave a standard for that. And so
it's kind of an interestingdynamic in that, you know,
(03:35):
leader should be taking a moreactive role in ensuring them
helping people on board in anyparticular organization, and
learn how to write the kinds ofdocuments that the organization
expects.
Dr. Leah OH (03:56):
Yeah, and that's, that's such a great point,
because they think you're right,there's this expectation, you've
you've earned this degree withbachelors, masters, match
masters, PhD. So we think, ofcourse, you can write but you
can't necessarily write well,right. Well, for the audience in
which you're expected to do so.
Exactly. Yeah. Really, reallygreat insight, Pam. And so when
we're thinking about being asuccessful technical writer,
(04:20):
what are some key qualities orskills that you believe in, you
know, your expertise make forthat successful technical
writer? Right. So theprofessionals
Pam Hurley (04:33):
we work with are, you know, aren't necessarily
technical writers, but they haveto write technical documents. So
there's that distinction. So oneof the things they have to be
able to do well, is to treatwriting as problem solving. And
they don't write because writingis often treated in in an
(04:56):
organization as well. This isjust something you have to do
but it's really not Importantor, you know, it is important,
but we're not going to train youhow to do it. And it's that kind
of thing. So it's really aninteresting thing in that
companies will pay lip serviceto this idea. We want people to
write well, but they don't givethem the tools to do that.
(05:18):
Right. And so one of the thingswe talk a lot about in our
workshops is you have to treatwriting as problem solving,
writing as problem solving onpaper. So just as you would
approach any problem you solvein the workplace, or in your
personal life, or whatever,writing is exactly the same
thing. But it's not treated thatway. So strategy and planning
(05:42):
are the two most importantthings that any that any writer
can do. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (05:47):
Yes. And I imagine them when you use that language,
when you help them with thatframe, it becomes a lot more
accessible to people whopreviously just saw it as some
output or something they had tocheck off their list.
Absolutely.
Pam Hurley (06:01):
Absolutely. Because because the pizza professionals
we work with, are there alreadygreat problem solvers. Let's be
honest, if they weren't greatproblem solvers, they wouldn't
be working in the fields thatthey do. But they've just never
been introduced, introduced tothe idea that you know, the
writing that they do, they'resolving a problem and trying to
communicate a particular messageto a specific audience for a
(06:23):
particular outcome, or action.
And to your point, yeah, we gothrough the steps of problem
solving with them. And then whenthey understand that just it
does tend to make it a lot moreaccessible and understandable
for them.
Dr. Leah OH (06:35):
Yeah, very, very cool. Pam, I love that. And so
my follow up, you've kind ofalready touched on some of
these. And I'm wondering howthese key qualities or skills
that helped make someone abetter writer? How do those same
qualities contribute to thembeing an effective leader?
Pam Hurley (06:52):
Well, yeah, absolutely. And there's, there's
definitely a parallel, right,because leaders are involved in
solving problems. It's the samesame kind of idea. What's the
problem? Oh, so I'm trying tosolve and how do I go about it.
And so effective leaders solveproblems, and they come up with
multiple solutions to solvethose problems. And so the same
thing, same thing is true withwriting or communication. When
(07:14):
you think about how do I solve aproblem? A lot of it depends on
who am I communicating with?
What do I know about them? I'veheard as having this discussion
few of our clients yesterday,and we were talking about anyone
who has an email, but neither,you know, you have to know how
your audience is going to reactto the information that you're
(07:35):
providing. So that you can thenstructure the email in such a
way that speaks to them. And soleaders have to do that as well.
It's funny, I was just lookingat LinkedIn, and this guy got
laid off from Google, and I'mlooking at this this layoff
notice, and it's just, it's justterrible. It's about Oui oui,
oui, oui, oui, instead of yourear, seek it, we got to do this,
(07:58):
or we got to do that and get tothat, and then it goes, and hey,
pick up these resources to helpyou. Instead of thinking about,
you know, not that Google. Ishouldn't say cares is the wrong
word. But they should butanyway, you know, layoffs or
layoffs are, you know, aredifficult thing. But you also
(08:20):
have to think about, you know,long term, how am I How am I
going to be perceived, and wesee this all the time with these
PR disasters, you know, fromthese major companies, and it
live is just how they workthings and how they, you know,
how they let people go, andthese kinds of things that speak
to speak to leadership? Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (08:45):
Yeah, yeah, you're right in talking about, you
know, when you're saying that Iwas thinking, they just didn't
finish thinking through theproblem solving, right? They hit
on some of the high points, ofcourse, but without all of that
due diligence, then we caneasily look at it and say, Ooh,
this, you know, you have thatvisceral reaction, like, this
(09:06):
just doesn't feel right. Thishas a yucky, elegant, icky feel,
because it didn't hit the mark.
That didn't hit the mark.
Pam Hurley (09:13):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And you think, well, a
company like Google, do theycare? Do they? Do they need to
care? You know, maybe not, Idon't know, kind of Google rules
a role, I guess. Yeah. You know,you also think about things
like, you often have to thinkabout big things like, you know,
(09:34):
long term, how are you going tobe perceived? And those kinds of
things, and we talk a lot aboutthat, you know, in our workshops
as well. A lot of it is abouthow you're perceived in the
workplace. And so a person whocan communicate well in writing
is not perceived as being ascompetent as someone who can.
Yep,
Dr. Leah OH (09:54):
exactly. Exactly. I made me think I knew someone who
would say good Morning in anemail, but it would be morning
MO You are like you're literallysaying Good grief. This is why
you are communicating. Andagain, really intelligent high,
(10:14):
you know, many degrees. Buttaking the time that
communication fell below him, Ithink it just wasn't something
that he believed needed his fullattention. It's like, no, let's
backtrack. Let's unpack this alittle bit.
Pam Hurley (10:30):
Ya know, to your point. I mean, you think and you
know, one little word. Yeah,Miss Val misuse. And you're
like, This guy's got all thesedegrees and everything, but uh,
sorry. Oh, gosh. I mean,exactly. Yeah. Take a minute, as
you said, yeah, the minute, youknow, when you make sure that
your communication is up to par,and that you've taken the time
(10:52):
and people are going to perceiveyou as thoughtful and things
like that. Little Heroes like,oh, they just take the time and
not they're not they're notdiligent, I mean, speaks all
kinds of issues.
Dr. Leah OH (11:05):
I agree. I truly do not ascribe the word experts.
Even if they are in the certainrates, that is not my immediate
adjective that I go to when Ihit when I'm seeing that.
Exactly. This is a perfectsegue, Pam. So I know you have
this idea. And I love this, thatyou talk about writing as the
(11:25):
unsung hero of businessefficiency. And I love that. So
can you kind of tell us moreabout this kind of what went
into your thought process? Andwhat this looks like in though
in an organization? Oh,
Pam Hurley (11:39):
absolutely. Yeah. So this is, I'll make it short,
because it can be very long. Butone of the things that that we
find is that people waste atremendous amount of time and
energy, writing poor documents,reviewing and then you have
these constant iterations,because there's no process in
(12:01):
place. So that people are onboarded, people know what that
you know, people have peopleknow what's expected up in terms
of their writing, the reviewprocess is streamlined. There's
a certain number of iterations,all this kind of stuff. So it's
just kind of like the wild wildwest. In that way, I'm gonna
write something and then I'mgonna write it for Leah, and
(12:22):
you're Leah's gonna mark it upand back, and then oh, he has
left? No, I have to write forBen. So people are constantly
writing to this movie target,instead of understanding that
readability studies tell us whatgood writing is. And that
applies to every document inevery audience, so it doesn't
matter who you're writing for.
Right? As long as you haven'thave. That sounds contradictory.
(12:44):
But what I mean by that issimply that the concepts of good
writing remain the same. And soeven if Ben says, Oh, I just
like bullets. Okay, well, thatdoesn't mean that that's
everything should be bulletedthat just because Vince says
that's what he first. So youknow, a lot of these
(13:05):
organizations, they just don'thave a process in place, which
creates this chaos when it comesto writing, there's a lot of
time and money and time andmoney wasted. I don't know if
you've ever read writing fordollars writing to please. But
it's a book by Joseph Campbell.
And he has all these great casestudies in there about the
amount of money thatorganizations have saved by
(13:27):
rewriting and things like that.
I mean, there's a real, there'sa real ROI on writing and
reviewing, and companies justdon't just don't realize it.
Dr. Leah OH (13:38):
Yes, yes, you are.
You're sorry, it's I think it'sstill seen as a soft skill. And
everyone says, of course, lipservice, I want this weakness,
this is so important. But in myexperience, it oftentimes stops
there. And as you're pointingout, and I think two drafts,
right, so someone will beworking in Google Drive, someone
will be working on a copydownloaded to their hard drive,
(14:00):
you know, when we have theselarge teams, and then we also
include those rewrites and otherpreferences and and you're
right, everyone there has spenta whole day if not more, on
something that, you know, we
Pam Hurley (14:16):
work with a client recently, and they were using
slack as their as their way tomake comments on people's
drafts. A really slack commentsand it's just like, what you're
treating it like Slack if andyou're not treating it as a
review, like using Track Changesin Word and that kind of thing.
(14:36):
So to your point, you have tothink about what what is the
medium that people are using toget these things accomplished?
So from using slack that channeldoes not lends it lends itself
well to making comments onpeople's writing. It's the same
thing we see with PowerPointslide. We have a we have a
client recently and they'reusing PowerPoint for their
(14:58):
proposals and whatpresentations, not that that's
necessarily a bad thing. Butthere are two different uses.
And so what that requires isthat we have a different
PowerPoint for proposals, and wehave a different PowerPoint for
the presentations. And peoplewere actually when they were
doing their oral presentationswith these PowerPoints, people
are getting up and walking out.
The door higher up in thegovernment nap. No, it's not
(15:24):
simply this job. Yeah, yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (15:30):
exactly. And so this is that is a perfect
example for this next question.
So and you might even tease thatone out a little more. Imagine
you have others. And I'mwondering if you could share a
specific instance, from yourexperience where we have
effective writing that has ledto improved outcomes?
Pam Hurley (15:50):
Oh, we have so many case studies or badly. I mean,
it is it is we have case studyafter case study after case
study. And I will tell you thatmost of our business is repeat
business. And there's a reasonfor that I mean, company's
particular virus. So we have Iwas working on a case study.
Yeah, yesterday, and it was apharma company. And they said
(16:12):
that their compliance hasincreased by about 3%. Because
we help them with their SOPs. Soit's, it's things like that some
of it is, you know, competencelevels, we measure competence as
well. Competence levels aretypically up and rest of the
organization organizations we'veworked with. So a lot of it is,
(16:33):
you know, long term kinds of,you know, following defaults,
three months, six months, thatkind of thing, and have asked
them to measure those things forus in terms of what they're
seeing some of it's anecdotal,but some of it is real, you
know, asking asking them about,you know, the number of
iterations you're going throughthe reviews are going through,
we have a cut down the time,that kind of thing. So we have
(16:56):
Yes, lots of case studies onthat for sure. Yeah.
Dr. Leah OH (17:01):
I mean, if we just think a 30% increase in
compliance, I mean, everycompany is like, wow. Yeah,
that's huge. Yeah. That'sincredible. Pam. So this is in a
probably in line with the SOPsyou're talking about, and some
of these other, you know, Meteordocuments that you're helping
(17:23):
organizations with? We know alot of times as technical
writing, we have jargon, we havereally complex concepts. So how
can either writers or those, youknow, employees who are serving
that technical writing function?
How can they communicateeffectively with both technical
and non technical team membersor audiences?
Pam Hurley (17:46):
That that is a great question. So what most folks
less professionals we work withtend to do is they tend to
communicate, so they tend toassume. So I'm going to assume
that you know what I mean, I'mgoing to assume that you
understand this jargon, I'mgoing to make all these
assumptions. And they don't dothat because they're lazy, but
they do that, because that's theeasiest thing to do. And quite
(18:09):
frankly, a lot of them haven'tbeen taught any, any different.
This is what we did. And so oneof the things we talk a lot
about is writing so that, youknow, somebody who is unfamiliar
with the topic can understandit. Now, that doesn't mean just
jargon, and that kind of thatkind of thing else, I mean,
structuring paragraphs andsentences, according to what
(18:31):
mutability studies tell us, ishow readers read. But yeah,
people do tend to and then I'mgonna use the biggest word I
possibly can. Because it makesme sound smart. And if you think
about the way academia teachespeople that 100% Yeah, you know,
let's get right to Soros. Yeah,let's find a basin and demand
(18:56):
for a particular word. When allthat does is just confuse the
issue. Use the word over andover and over again. Yes, yes,
you should, because you'retrying to drive home a point.
And when you switch terminology,which is something we see a lot,
when you switch terminology, allyou're doing is raising
questions on the part of thereader, your your, your your
(19:16):
objective, as a writer is toguide readers, you're the
Sherpa, and you're takingreaders on the journey. And if
the reader comes to me directlyinclusion that is on you, that
is not on the reader. And I wenton a tangent there, but
Dr. Leah OH (19:31):
thanks, X. Yeah, yep. No, I really appreciate
that. And I think it shows theresponsibility of writing then a
lot of people again, when theykind of dismiss us, and this is
just the last thing you need todo on a checklist for a project
that really short changeseverything.
Pam Hurley (19:49):
Absolutely. It absolutely does. Yeah, and
that's what a lot of peopleviewing one of the things you
know, we talk with our clientsis the document is the
deliverable, because it doesn'tmatter what We'll do behind the
scenes if you can't report thatin a way that your reader can
understand that take upproduction doesn't really matter
which did.
Dr. Leah OH (20:08):
Exactly. And so a follow up to that. So what role
so the title leaders andorganizations, whether it's a C
suite or at the manageriallevel, how can they help to, you
know, enhance the role ofcommunication and technical
writing? What is kind of theirresponsibility in changing the
(20:29):
way that their teams or theirorganizations see this part of
the process? Yeah, absolutely.
Pam Hurley (20:35):
Number one, they should value it, and show their
team that they that is valued byeither getting them help,
whatever that is, whether that'sa writing course, or purely
right, whether that is mentoringit within the organization, or
whatever it is, you've got toshow, you've got to show your
team that you value it by givingthem the tools that they need,
(20:58):
it's kind of amazing, when youthink about, you know, I'm going
to become an engineer, and I gointo this, this, whatever it is,
and they give me all the tools Ineed to do to engineer but they
don't give me the tools I needto improve my writing or enhance
my writing or figure out what Ineed in my writing. And that's
(21:18):
actually what I'm going to bedelivering. So it's it's, it's
mind blowing. So that's thefirst thing. And then the second
thing is they have to be rolemodels, in terms of
communication and really assess,how are you communicating? Are
your emails full of stuff thatdidn't take too long to get to
the point? Are your meetingsrambling? I mean, what how are
(21:42):
you modeling? Goodcommunication, because people
look to you to be that to bethat role model. So if you're
not taking the time to, youknow, to write good documents,
or give people the time theyneed to write if it's constantly
Oh, you got to get this done.
Dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk, dunk,dunk by five o'clock today, then
what you're telling people is, Idon't really value the writing
(22:05):
that the writing that you do,this is just something that has
to get done. Leaders need toreally assess and be very honest
with themselves about how areyou treating communication in
your workplace? And how are youmodeling good communication?
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (22:25):
that's really powerful. And I think too often,
those entitled leadershippositions, forget how impactful
their behaviors are. Yes. And Ijust I cringe as a leadership
communication scholar, whenpeople say, Do as I say, not as
I do, I'm like, no, no, you needto find yourself another
manager, or another mentor.
Yeah, that's exactly exactlywhat we're hearing here. Yeah,
Pam Hurley (22:51):
you know, it's, it's really interesting. We have a
client, they're consultants, andhe, we were talking. And he his
managers is terrible at givingfeedback. And so one of the one
of the managers comments wasmake this crisper. So it's less
or something. So he goes to themanager, I mean, he was making a
(23:14):
concerted effort to find outfrom his manager, what the
comment meant. Because if you'regiven a comment, you are
responsible for being able toexplain what those comments
read, and they've done. It'sjust kind of like, we're just
taking a manager and he said,What do you mean, and his
manager said to him, Yourpredecessor knew what that
(23:34):
meant? And I'm sorry. Wow. Yep.
Wow. I mean, it's just shocking,really, when you think about
some of the things and this guywas honest, he's like, I'm just
about to quit the job because ofmy manager. Yep. As a
consultant, they were involvedin writing reports constantly.
(23:55):
And he said, the feedback thatI'm getting from our managers,
so poor is causing me so muchstress that he was really
thinking about, about quittinghis job. And that's another
thing that leaders need tounderstand. If people have a
clear idea of what they'retrying to do, in terms of
communication, it can create alot of stress in the workplace,
(24:16):
animosity, and it's just, it'snot just this kind of thing
while we do it, it's the it'scommunication is the backbone of
any good organization.
Dr. Leah OH (24:31):
Exactly. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more.
And I think the other thing is,a lot of our title leaders don't
think about two steps out threesteps, four steps out, in this
gentleman in this example,telling other friends and
they're like, No, I wouldn't doit. It's not I wouldn't use that
company. I would not fill thatrole. Right. So things like
(24:53):
that. And that word of mouth nowis the most powerful I think, in
my opinion, for me persuasionthat we're seeing. I
Pam Hurley (25:02):
think you're right.
Just like I was talking aboutthat Google layoff letter. I
mean, this I posted it Presidentposted it on LinkedIn. Yep. Yep,
exactly. All these people aregonna say, you're right. It's
not just this kind of, you know,in a vacuum. Yeah. You know,
social media and media andeverything else. And to your
point, people are going to talkto other people. And it's just,
(25:23):
it's, it's kind of, it's kind ofcrazy, dangerous, oftentimes
think about the communicationthat they are modeling in the
workplace.
Dr. Leah OH (25:35):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. So this got a really nice
follow up question. So what aresome of these common obstacles
that you have seen probably withpeople coming to you to learn
how to write better or to helpfacilitate better writing in
their organizations? So what aresome of these these really
common experiences that pop upwhen people are saying, our team
(25:59):
just can't communicate to ourvendors, or we can't communicate
to our audience or stereostakeholders, whatever that is?
Pam Hurley (26:07):
Yeah, so a lot of people just assume one of the
calls we get most often is,well, they can't communicate in
this because they need grammarHill. Grant, my help is the last
thing they need, I can promiseyou that your team's problem is
not grammar. Research has evenshown that teaching grammar
actually can worsen the way thatpeople write. So, you know, we
(26:31):
what we try to do with folkswith with with prospects is we
do what we call communication onit to help them understand where
are the problems coming from theother thing that they do, which
I think I've alluded to, is theytend to blame the riders. When
sometimes it's not the riders,it's the reviewers, because
people are getting conflictingfeedback. There's no real
(26:52):
assessment, they don't reallyknow what the problem is, they
don't even know at what leveltheir team is writing, right?
Where are they where they needto be. So there's this total
lack of recognition about any ofthat it's just an assumption or
a hunch. So that's one of thereasons that we do you know, we
do the communication audit withfolks. Get in there, figure out
(27:16):
what the real problems are,present the findings to them.
And then they can do with thosefindings, what they will, they
will hire us great if they wantto do something great, but at
least they didn't have a have abasic understanding of where
where the issues are, and thenthey can begin to fix them. Mm
hmm. Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (27:33):
that's, that's so great that you start with the
audit to help them see. BecauseI think you're right when,
especially in organizations,high stress and a lot of
pressure teams andorganizations. So when it's not
going well, it's a lot easier topoint fingers and say, This is
the tip of the iceberg. This iswhat I think it must be. So with
(27:54):
that in mind, Pam, are there acouple? You know, if someone
just came to you and said, ourcommunication is not working? Do
you have like one strategy ortwo strategies or tips for
someone to do right away to kindof assess that or overcome a
challenge?
Pam Hurley (28:12):
Well, one of the things we get we try to do is to
get them to allow us to do thecommunication audit. But if they
don't do that, what I mean andagain, they have to be really
honest about the writing thatthey're doing. The onboarding
that they're doing, how are theyonboarding P Hilmi? Do you have
(28:33):
an onboarding program are youjust, you know, I was talking to
a client the other day, andhe's, he's had, I had to spend
so much time on my own, tryingto figure out what this
organization wants for me interms of my writing. And that
just shouldn't be I mean, hesaid, I had no idea I was just
kind of left on my own. And sowe struggling to so be really
honest, do you have anonboarding? I mean, what does
(28:55):
that look like? If you don't?
Why not? Yeah, it's not thatdifficult to institute but is it
just kind of willy nilly and payhim to document figure it out
kind of thing, which is whatpeople are going to do this, you
know, either either copy andpaste or cut. Use that as a
moment and pace. But so that'sthe first thing you got to be
(29:16):
really honest about what yourissues are. And are you a good
leader and he was a model? Areyou are you modeling good
communication? Are you givingpeople the time they need to
write, which is a big one, youknow, there's to your points.
We're busy, we're rush, we'reboth, okay. Well, maybe there's
opportunities that you can givepeople to spend more time
(29:36):
writing because writing takestime to be proficient at it, it
takes time. It's not somethingyou can just dash off.
Dr. Leah OH (29:46):
Yeah. And in my experience, and I imagine you've
seen this, too, excuse me, it's,you know, we invest some time
now, but we save a lot of timelater. Once we establish these
processes are we No, we givepeople the tools that they need
to be successful.
Pam Hurley (30:04):
That's 100%.
Correct, man. And that's whatpeople don't get. They want that
they want that quick fix. I'mhere to tell you, there's no
quick fix with writing andpeople are all gone about AI.
I'm telling you, AI is notenough fix machines. If you
think you don't know much aboutAI, you know, we're just not
there yet. There is no quickfix. Yeah, writing good writing
(30:25):
takes time, you've got to putthe time and effort into it. You
can get people proficient, youknow, a lot of people in you
know this as well as I do. SoOh, writing, writing is
something you're born with, oryou're not. No, it's not. That's
me crazy.
Dr. Leah OH (30:44):
Yep. I am with you on that. 100%. So with this in
mind, what what is ongoingprofessional development look
like when we're trying to becomethe best writers that we can be?
So that's a?
Pam Hurley (30:59):
That's a great, great question. So we have
within our program, we have acomplete program, right? It
starts with the audit. And thenwe have an LMS. And we have
webinars, and we have coaching.
And so we try to make sure thatpeople are able to practice
because writing good writingtakes practice, it's not
something you can just do forfive minutes. And we're done.
(31:20):
We're done good. And so we havea lot of a lot of things in
place for for writers tocontinue to hone their skills
can continue to get the expertfeedback. And again, we try to
do like before, I know, youknow, an after, and then
everything in between that theclient needs. So sometimes it's
office hours, we can walk, orsomething. Or webinars,
(31:43):
sometimes it's coaching, a lotof it just depends on the
climate debate.
Dr. Leah OH (31:50):
Yeah, and I think you're gonna, you're pointing
out the importance of reflectionin being a thoughtful writer and
communicator and recognizing,where do we feel competent? What
are areas that we feel shaky andneed a little feedback on? So I
love all those ideas youprovided? Right?
Pam Hurley (32:10):
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. Me, you've got to
be honest, you can't just assumethat you know what the problem
is?
Dr. Leah OH (32:15):
Yeah. So Pam, I have two final questions for
you. So I'm the communicativeleader, we like to leave
listeners with pragmaticleadership or communication tips
can be advice, it can be achallenge. So to that end, what
advice do you have for ourtitled formal leaders
Pam Hurley (32:35):
understand where your writers are and what they
need? That's, that's advice. Andthat's also a challenge, because
that's not an easy thing to do.
But you need to be really honestwith, with your writers where
they are, but also with yourreviewers. What does your review
process look like? And are youreviewers contributing to the
(32:57):
writing problem? Because manytimes they are we tend to put a
lot of faith and trust in ourreviewers. And sometimes they're
contributing to the problem.
Yeah,
Dr. Leah OH (33:10):
yeah, really, really important here, I think
that it needs to be a feedbackloop. And a lot of times, it's
not your
Pam Hurley (33:19):
right to do it to you, and you're gonna mark it
up. And then you know, insteadof the dialogue, everybody has a
dog in the fight. But that's nothow we how we treat our
documents to your point, likeeverybody has a dog in the
fight. Mm hmm.
Dr. Leah OH (33:35):
Yeah. Final question for you. So we just
talked about some advice forformer leaders, whether you want
to leave employees all ranksacross all industries, you know,
same thing kind of advice, tipsor challenge for them. Yeah.
Pam Hurley (33:50):
So I think the advice is to understand that
writing is a process. And thatgood writing takes time. It is
not something that you can do infive minutes, give yourself time
and grace, to reflect as yousuggest, and to do all the
(34:11):
things that need to be done inthe writing process, instead of
just treating it as somethingthat I can just get done in 15
minutes. And here's the otherthing about that. And you can
cut this out if you want to,obviously, whatever. But anyway,
one of the things we find isthat when people do that, when
people don't give themselves thetime and space, they do what we
call overriding. So the documentis twice as long as it as it
(34:34):
would have been, should havebeen if they just taken the time
to reflect. So while they hatewriting, they're actually doing
more writing than they should ifthey had just taken the time to
plan reflect and that kind ofthing.
Dr. Leah OH (34:45):
Yeah, and that's so powerful, right? Especially if
you say okay, writing is this,you know, unfortunate part of my
job that I have to do. This isnot what I signed up for. It's
not what I went to school for,and then to actually spend more
time doing it than you need toOh, yeah, I mean, that's just,
that's some some irony for youthere. But it's SharePoint.
(35:07):
taking that step back andthinking about as a process. And
I will always think aboutwriting now is problem solving.
I think that's ingenious, and away to connect it with everyone
across any boundaries ordifferences or identities.
Because, I mean, truly, that'swhat we're trying to do.
Pam Hurley (35:25):
Absolutely. Yeah. It is as important as any task that
anyone does in the workplace inany given day. Unless you're a
brain surgeon, maybe it's not asimportant there.
Dr. Leah OH (35:38):
Cash, right, patient notes, right.
Pam Hurley (35:42):
That's right. That's right.
Dr. Leah OH (35:44):
Oh, oh, Pam, is really been a pleasure chatting
with you today. I want to thankyou for the incredible work that
you're doing and the way thatyou're helping to transform
organizations and employeesexperiences in such a positive
way.
Pam Hurley (36:00):
Thank you. And thank you very much for having me. I
certainly appreciate this greatconversation.
Dr. Leah OH (36:06):
All right, my friends. That wraps up our
conversation today. Until nexttime, you indicate with
intention in lead with purpose.
Looking forward to chatting withyou again soon on the
communicative leader.
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