November 7, 2023 • 41 mins
TCD Podcast Season 6 - Episode 115
What if you had a peek into the life of a policewoman, a woman of color leading a team to combat domestic, child, and adult abuse in the UK? Join us as we unravel the intriguing journey of Aneela Khalil Khan, a Detective Chief Inspector at South Yorkshire Police Department. Aneela, a seasoned professional with a 20-year career, takes us through her path beginning with her training at the Academy to her current leadership role, comparing and contrasting the US and UK police systems, particularly focusing on training and probationary periods.
Aneela doesn’t just stop at sharing her experiences. She delves deeper, bringing in her research about women in policing, with special emphasis on women of color. Our conversation takes a turn towards leadership – how understanding others plays a crucial role in decision-making, the necessity of humility, and the courage to stand up for what's right. We also touch upon the importance of constructive dialogue, and how Aneela has used these principles to enhance leadership training at the South Yorkshire Police Department.
Detective Chief Inspector Khalil Khan reveals her ambitions for the police force, laying bare her hopes for the future. She shares her desire to reach out to young women and girls of color, hoping to guide and inspire them. We further discuss her research in the US, her plans to interact with local police leaders in DC and NC, members of the Drug Enforcement Administration, and ASEBP. She talks of her aspirations to share her findings back in the UK. This dialogue with Aneela is not just an exploration of her journey but also a testament to her commitment to serve and change her community.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Cop Doc podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The cop doc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorialli and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on the
cop doc podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, hello everybody .
Again, Steve Morialli coming toyou from Boston, and today
we're talking to somebody on theother side of the pond, but
Anila Khalil Khan is actually inthe United States.
She's in Washington DC, headedto North Carolina later.
She is here on a full, brightscholarship.
Good morning to you, Anila.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Good morning, you okay.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I am okay.
Thank you, we're very, veryhappy to have you on.
You are a detective chiefinspector at South Yorkshire
Police Department and you'vebeen doing this for almost 20
years, but you're in the UnitedStates.
So I want to talk about a wholebunch of things.
We'll talk about leadership,about your police department,
about your experience and thecomparison between what you're
finding in the United States andyou're still searching and the
(01:25):
UK.
So tell us about you first howlong you've been in policing,
why policing?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, so morning everyone.
So I've been in the police 20years.
As I said, I'm in SouthYorkshire Police, facing the
place called Rotherham.
So just a little bit backgroundabout South Yorkshire.
In the central of UK, englandit's basically Yorkshire quite
rural but with some big citiesin there as well.
South Yorkshire is made up offour cities Rotherham, doncaster
, barnsley and Sheffield.
I live in Sheffield but workingin Rotherham, and I've been
(01:51):
based South Yorkshire for 20years now.
Prior to joining the police, Iwas a student.
My undergrad was chemistry andforensics and it got to a stage
where I was leaving universityand thinking about what I want
to do with my career, where Idon't want to go and it was
actually my father back in theday 20 years ago said well, why
don't you consider the police,see what's on offer and maybe
consider going to the forensicsside of policing?
(02:12):
So I went for an open day and,as they say, the rest is history
.
I joined at the age of 22,chose at the university and back
in the UK.
What we used to do then is youhad your 15 week training
program and then progressed fortwo years as what we used to
call a probation officer, astudent officer, learning your
trade, learning your craft.
(02:33):
Pretty much soon after my justunder two years, I realised I
wanted to be a detective andtherefore sat my detective exams
and absolutely loved CID work,criminal investigation work.
I kind of reflected back really.
I just did quite a fewdifferent roles within CID.
So initially it was what weclass as reactive CID, dealing
(02:53):
with a general serious crime,complex crime, specialising to
adult and child abuse.
For five years they were themost valuable years, to be
honest with me, most rewardingyears as well and then did some
projects etc.
And then was promoted tosergeant, led some fantastic
team of officers, moved up tobeing a detective inspector and
then was finally promoted in2019, end of 2019 as the
(03:18):
detective inspector.
Now I know the ranking systembetween the US and the UK is
slightly different, but I thinkwhen I'm comparing my rank to
the US, it's between a captainand a commander.
So I've got, like I said, abase in Rotherham and I've got
the crime functions.
They're all criminalinvestigation.
I lead on them.
I've got some fantasticofficers.
(03:38):
So we deal with domestic abuse,child abuse, adult abuse,
general CID, and then wespecialise in what we call
proactive CID, which is yourguns, drugs, violence, etc.
Yes, the fantastic team.
So yeah, that's a quicksnapshot of my 20 years in
policing.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, what I think is unusual for those listening in
the United States, but for thosein the UK and Ireland and in
Europe, what is different Ithink you're beginning to find
this out is the training here inthe United States is you go
into the academy 23 a week, say,and there is a wide spans
between 12 and 25 and maybe 30weeks, and then you're done and
you're on probation for maybefive or six months afterwards
(04:14):
and now you are full fledged.
For you you just said you're inthe academy for 50 weeks.
In essence, you're on probationfor three years and you have to
prove yourself right along theway.
You have to have boards, youhave to sit down.
I suppose you have to write ajournal or a portfolio to say
this is what I did, this is howI handle it, this is what
reflection was.
Here's how I could have done itbetter, here's what I needed to
(04:35):
know, and this is something I'mreally pushing in the United
States because I think it's sovaluable because we come out of
the United States in the academy.
I've been through three or fourof them and it is you're done.
Get to work right.
It's that it's different whereyou are.
Talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, it's interesting how you say that.
So when you join the police,it's slightly different nowadays
because there's differentschemes, different methods of
joining or entering into police.
However, when I joined theE-Class of GCSEs, high school
education, english, math, etc.
And the process of joining sothere's an application form,
there's some testing, so it'syour English writing list
(05:13):
obviously, then your physicaltesting and then when you start
what?
Five weeks of training at theacademy.
Now I went away for Academy andthere was a place called Durham
in the UK and it's where youlearn your basic policing.
You love your self-deferredprotection and you get to know
your colleagues who youpotentially will be working with
.
You will be learning the basicsand learning how to be safe and
(05:35):
competent and be a policeofficer.
After those 15 weeks you thencome back to your district or
your force.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
First of all, you just said 15, not 50 weeks.
One, five, yes, Okay, my bad, Iheard 50.
Sorry about that, but what Iwant you to do, I think I'd love
to see you.
So we're talking to AnilaKhalil Khan.
She is a detective chiefinspector at South Yorkshire
Police Department.
What I have failed to say isshe's here on a full-bite
scholarship and she is beinghosted by Howard University in
North Carolina CentralUniversity and that's where
(06:03):
she's headed pretty soon.
I've had that same experienceof being a full-brider, as
you'll be called quite soon, butwe were talking about the
police training and then comingback.
Continue on that vein.
You finished the 15 week, not50, but you finished the 15 week
academy and for a few yearsyou're sort of still on
probation.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So what is that like?
Once you return back to yourforce after your 15 week, you're
then working with a tutor, amentor, and that's as your
independent or your tutoredphase, and it's basically
putting what you've learned atthe training school into
practice.
So you are going out, walkingthe beat, walking dealing with
incidents like a normal officerwould, but you've always got
(06:42):
your colleague there with youwho's shadowing you, examining
you at the same time and makingsure that you're competent and
suitable.
That lasts for 15, sort of forthe 10 weeks Again, this is when
I joined, so it's slightlydifferent now and in that period
you will then do your drivingtraining, so what we call the
blue light training, where youare able or competent to drive
the police vehicles respondingto emergencies, etc.
(07:05):
This process is over two yearsand, as you said earlier, in
that two years you do have towrite a journal it's a portfolio
and hit certain criteria andsay right, I have stopped
searching someone, I have spokenat a, dealt with their incident
, I have interviewed someone andwe put case files in to go to
court.
So I have put a case file in, soyou have to evidence everything
(07:26):
that you've done in that period.
Your tutor then signs you offsaying, yes, this person is
competent and capable to be outon patrol on their own and
obviously a signed off policeofficer, a substantive police
officer as we would call.
So, yeah, the period lastsbetween two to three years, but
in that two to three years youare continually getting training
.
It's 15 weeks in the academy,back into the police force, 10
(07:47):
weeks independent patrol, butconstantly if you've fed
different parts of criteria thatyou need to meet certain sort
of legislation.
That thought out process I havementioned that was when I
joined.
It is slightly different now.
So there's different routes inthe UK to get into policing.
I can touch on those if youwould like me to.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
There's so much to talk about beyond police.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
My undergrads, well for my bachelor's was at
Bradford University of Bradfordand that was chemistry with
forensics.
And then I joined the policeand then, whilst I was in the
police, I did my masters incriminology at Sheffield Hallam
University.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So you went to Bradford and then you went on
for a masters of science degreein criminology.
Talk about that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, so it was 2008-2009, I was at a place that
where I was confident, capableand obviously just on my
detectives exams.
The thing with me, steve, is Ilike to learn, I like to educate
myself and keep into into loopwith stuff and I thought, well,
I'll study for a master's degree, knowing that I was working
full-time and wanted somethingclose to home and sort of that
(08:45):
flexibility of going intouniversity.
So I applied for a master'sprogramme in criminology at
Sheffield Hallam University anddid that in 2008,.
Graduated in 2009.
What a fantastic, fantasticcourse, met some brilliant
people there.
So, yeah, that was in 2009.
So it was a difficult year,just with working full-time,
just moving into CID andstudying full-time, but it was
(09:08):
really rewarding.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Well, when we do that , it's very hard to do both and
to balance.
But once it's done, it's doneand they can't take it away from
you, right?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So I'm familiar with Sheffield because I've done some
work with with a couple offaculty members on academics
practical academics which I findpretty interesting.
But let's talk about Fulbright.
Here you are in the UnitedStates, in Washington.
I have been watching you onLinkedIn on the things you have
(09:41):
done, the places you havevisited, the inquiries you have
made, and when we talked theother day offline we talked
about how receptive generallypolice are for anybody who
carries a badge anywhere in theworld.
Is that what you're feeling asyou go from place to place in
the United States?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
100%.
So just a background aboutachieving or gaining the
Fulbright.
It was last year I applied forthe Fulbright process.
It was the UK US Commission forFulbright and in partnership
with the National Black PoliceOffice Association in the UK,
and it was a three-monthresearch project over in the US,
(10:27):
seconded or affiliated to twouniversities one in Howard in DC
and one North Carolina Central.
Both are with the historicalblack universities.
The research that my work isundergoing, or that I am
undergoing, is women in policing, in particular, women of color,
(10:50):
replacing how we recruit,retain and progress them to
senior levels.
This is something that I'm verypassionate about.
Obviously, being a lady, awoman of color and from a Muslim
background.
It's something that I want toleave that legacy behind when I
retire.
I want to make sure that theworkforce is reflecting our
(11:14):
communities.
So that's what's really broughtme to the US For six weeks in
DC area.
It's been absolutely fantastic.
I've obviously worked with theuniversity law school, met some
brilliant professors andstudents, where I've learned a
lot and really the American viewand the American perspective on
(11:36):
things and actually what I cansay.
Wider than that, I've also thenworked with alongside and
interviewed members of theMetropolitan Police Department
and Montgomery County Police,the chiefs there and the
assistants, and been on a ridealong with a couple of officers.
And you're right, yes, thepolicing is different in UK,
(12:01):
that goes without saying.
But what we can all rely on isthat blue line.
We are all but from the policeand family, and that really what
brings us together.
We all have had hurdleseveryone and barriers that we've
had to overcome in faith, butactually we are where we are
because we're doing it for theright reasons, and that was the
underlying tone in everyone thatI've met.
(12:23):
They've joined for the rightreasons and those reasons are to
serve the community, to make ita better place and give
something back.
And the challenges that we allhave and the progress that we
all have are very similar and sowe can resonate on that.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, here in the United States, as you know, as
you well know that there aremany a detractor of policing,
many negative views of policing,some earned and many of them
not earned.
But I also know that it carriesover across the globe.
So, part of the community andpart of certainly the community
(12:59):
of color, many feel that they'redisenfranchised and the police
don't understand them, thepolice don't care about them.
Is it the same where you arefrom?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I think we can reflect on both UK, us and
nationally, globally havingincidents where there have been
reasons for certain communitymembers to be aggrieved or
pushback and say, actually, thisis not right, this is not fair
and we have to accept that, wehave to acknowledge that.
But actually we have to see howwe can improve and make sure we
(13:28):
don't make those mistakes again, and I think that's what all
police forces are currentlydoing.
Yes, there's been mistakes inthe past but, yes, we are moving
forward and I can sort of mostrecently again globally, since
the pandemic and the GeorgeFloyd incident and certain
incidents in the UK that haveoccurred which have made some
distrust, really from certaincommunity members.
(13:49):
However, what we are now doingand both in the US and in the UK
, we are trying to address thoseissues.
We are trying to say, look,these mistakes have happened,
work with us to improve.
And that's certainly going backto the UK.
We are doing that.
We've got a national race actionplan which each force is
pushing and driving, and talkingabout my local force, south
Yorkshire, we are, we aredriving that, we are working.
(14:10):
And the race action plan I'mnot sure if you're aware of it,
it's more sort of concentratedon the black community, showing
them that the police are there,getting that trust and
confidence back.
We've got a dedicated team inthe UK and certain forces and
especially my force.
We've got a superintendentleading on this.
We've held, and will continueto hold, several engagement
events with our communities andjust making opening those doors,
(14:31):
opening those conversations andmoving forward.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Well, thank you.
We're talking to Anila KhalilKhan.
She's a detective chiefinspector.
She's in the United Statesright now, but she is from South
Yorkshire and Central UK andCentral England.
She's a Fulbright specialistand she's here at Howard
University, north CarolinaCentral University.
She's headed there very, verysoon.
But I want to talk a little bitabout Anila is becoming a
leader.
Here.
You are a line officer.
(14:56):
You raise your hand, you takethe test, you are now a sergeant
and you have the ranks andthere's a learning process about
dealing with people, becauseyou're no longer responsible
only self.
Now you're responsible for asmall group of people.
As you came into that newposition, tell us, if you would,
about what kinds of trainingthat you receive to get ready
(15:16):
for that next level.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah.
So again, in my my force is ourfuture.
What we do for our officers,candidates for movement from
level to level, is we give thema leadership training program
frontline we call it frontlineleaders and it starts as on the
sergeant level and every personwho passes that test become a
sergeant will go on this courseand then that those courses.
(15:38):
They're really, really valuable.
You can take a lot away fromthem.
They are how do we havedifferent conversations?
How do we work with ourofficers?
How do we challenge where weneed to challenge?
How do we support?
It gives you a wide breadth ofexperience, knowledge and you're
working and you train withlike-minded people, everyone who
has passed that test.
So you're all sharingexperiences, challenges that you
(16:01):
may have had, what's worked foryou.
So it's that internal communitythat we've created.
Each level I've had certaintraining aspects, so moving up
from sort of middle, lowmanagement to middle management.
It's that continuing learningcycle.
Although my force port providesthat training, we are reviewing
this and putting some moretraining out.
But what I've also done is donesome homework as well and done
(16:23):
in my private time some learning, some reading to educate myself
and to better myself and tomake sure that I'm a fair and
competent leader for my team.
So, yeah, it's a bit of both.
It's a bit of working in thework environment, but actually
some learning and reading thatI've done externals to that as
well.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
As we continue on and you are now a detective chief
inspector, you go from runningbriefings to running meetings
and to have group meetings andunit meetings.
And what kinds of mistakes,missteps do you recall that you
now learned from in terms ofrunning meetings?
I'm sure my own experience hasbeen that I worked for some old
(17:02):
timers who were very autocraticand they would call everybody in
and they would say we got to dothis, this, this and this, any
questions out the door, and theyreally don't want questions.
It's a different time now.
Have you gone through thatprocess?
Have you made some changes inthe way you run your meetings so
they're more participative andyou're getting feedback from the
crew, because you realize wedon't know it all?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
100% exactly that.
On your first week, your firstday, your first month as a
leader, you're still learning,you're continually learning.
So you will have to.
You know.
You come in thinking about Ineed to conduct this meeting,
this briefing, in this manner.
You then reflect on this andthink, actually, this didn't
work, I should try and adapt itand change it.
So you continually learning,and to this day I'm still
learning, I'm still adapting.
And then I think it'd be adiscredit to myself if I said
(17:45):
I'm a finished article, becauseno one is.
We're all continually changingand adapting.
In policing it's slightlydifferent in as much as the raw
circumstances and situationswhere you have to be autocratic.
So, for example, if I'minvestigating a murder
investigation or a kidnapinvestigation and it's quite a
fast pace I have to be right.
This is what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So we're talking to Anila Khalil Khan.
She is a chief inspector and afull writer in Washington and
North Carolina for the next fewmonths and we've had some
technical difficulties so we'veswitched from one mode to
telephone, so hopefully we cancontinue the conversation.
What you were talking aboutbefore I lost you, anila, was
conversation about morphing froma street supervisor to a leader
(18:29):
of a group, especially ininvestigations, and you were
talking about sometimes you haveto be taught down in certain
circumstances to tell somebodyto do something right away, for
whatever reason, for tacticalreasons, right, but also how you
run your meetings now, so thatyou can learn from each other.
So talk a little bit about yourstyle and how it's changed over
some time?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, so what I have at the moment I've got 14 full
sergeants.
I have a monthly meeting witheach department where I invite
the expected sergeant.
It's a split process really.
So we discuss performance anddata.
So that's what we then discuss.
I think that's that quality andit's that's what's more
important the health andwell-being of our team.
So it's a more of aninteractive like all shared
(19:13):
ideas, a compare contract andcome to an agreement.
So it's not me top down sayingwhat we have to do once.
Obviously I need to know whatneeds to tell them what our sort
of focus is for that moment.
But equally, there's sharedmeetings and they will meet
Anila's going to have a weeklymeeting with my inspector catch
up again and share and exchangeknowledge Over time.
Obviously, as you mature intothe role like you're learning
(19:35):
the role and as you're showingyourself, your style, your
communication style, yourleadership style continually
changes and I think it willcontinue to change, because I'm
not the finished off and I don'tthink anyone is.
We're all learning and we'reall adapted.
You pick things up, you thinklike you relate me to the
connect, so did that really wellor could have been better?
There I changed and that's theway I am.
I sort of reflect on me toreflect my performance and
(19:57):
actually adapt myself.
I also then speak to people andspeak to my peers and sort of
share my dreams with them, justto breast in myself.
If I am the right leader, inthe right frame of mind and I'm
conducting myself, it will makemy dreams perform.
And that's the whole program Anopen door policy.
Let's go, stick around.
And yes, I am on paper on theleader, yes, I am the manager.
Relax with me between us, andwe're all in it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So Anila is a Detective, chief Inspector,
fulbright Specialist, here inthe United States.
While we speak, she's inWashington, headed to North
Carolina pretty soon.
Let's go back for a moment toyour experience in the United
States.
It was my experience when I wasin Ireland and I had great
opportunity, as you do, to movearound throughout the country
and to talk to people and knockon doors and present myself and
(20:40):
go to the inspectorate and go tothe headquarters and go to cab
criminal assets bureau and go tothe detectives and go to the
stock team, the basically thetactical team, and in every
little city and town that I wentto just to show up at a guard
station.
You're doing similar stuff inWashington and my sense was that
you're as curious as they areabout you.
(21:01):
What's your experience so farwith the questions that you're
being asked?
This is as much as you'reasking questions.
I'm sure there are questionsboomerang back at you 100%.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
And the first question I over get is why don't
you carry in firearms?
What the hell's wrong with youguys Exactly and actually when
we then progress to a lengthy,detailed conversation and
actually it's a reallyinteresting conversation where I
claim that we do have somecertain officers who carry
firearms so predominantly wedon't and we explain that police
(21:32):
weapons and de-escalation anddisbanding and the fact that
obviously firearms are notlegalized back in the UK and in
a certain state that they have,and sort of understand the
differences and why we are likethat, and it opens a lot.
There are many moreconversations from there.
Just a little very curious.
But what the under as I saidbefore, the underlying tone is
we are very similar.
(21:53):
We have the same challenges,the same problem, the same good
work ethic at the same drivethat although we're completely
different countries, but we arevery similar in as much as what
our outlook is and where we wantto achieve.
There's obviously other certainkey aspects that were different
apart from the firearm themakeup of the teams, the number
of resources that have thedifferent aspects that have.
(22:13):
Obviously, dc is such adifferent and you need to play
the word you can only reallycompare it to Metropolitan
Police, london Police and the UKbecause you've got government
officials here, you've got thesecret services etc.
So it's difficult to compare tomy board.
However, yes, there's loads ofconversation, loads of learning
and both ways are both taken alot away and compare and share
(22:34):
in as well.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So, ultimately, what is your goal, what is the
purpose of your visit, what areyou trying to ascertain?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
So my full black.
All of research is in relationto women who police and into
women of colour and policing,how we recruit, retain and
progress them into policing.
This is something I'm extremelypassionate about being a lady
of colour, a Muslim officer,working in what historically was
a predominantly male or in apolice in place.
I can say in the UK we havechanged that dramatically as
(23:01):
much as we've got a significantnumber of women in police now a
significant number of women ofhigher ranks.
She's comfortable, she'scomfortable, etc.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
They see your leaders and it's a woman.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yes, she's come to a lot of parties emails.
She's been imposed for years.
We've got Sarah Coleman asassistant chief comfortable.
We've got several female chiefssuper.
So we've got a number of higherranking female officers.
What we do struggle with whichis where my research is coming
in is how do we get women ofcolour whether that's a black
lady, an Asian lady that's ourAsian legislature to get to the
(23:31):
higher ranks.
So I'm the high ranking femaleof colour in my school.
There's loads of people behindme, but I want to leave that
legacy for the new recruitsother girls, other females,
other female of colour.
So it's possible.
Let's light that ceiling, let'sget there.
We've massively done it withwomen, but let's get that.
Let's get it represented byfemales of colour as well, and
that's really what my drive is.
It says anything that ishappening in the US I could take
(23:54):
back and like whether there'sanything happening in the UK
that I could share with the US.
Now, obviously, with timeconstrictions, I am at a
restraint.
I am limited on how many placesI can visit.
However, I have a certainnumber of female officers female
female chief of colour andagain it's the same story the
work part.
It's got where they are becauseof their ability and capability
(24:14):
, and that's something that Iwill be taking back.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Well, if I can suggest a few people, I'll try
to connect you when we're done.
I'll give you some potentiallypoints of contact, but I think
while you're here in the UnitedStates yes, you're focused on
North Carolina and you'refocused on Washington, but
there's a whole bunch morepeople out there that you can
connect with while you're in theUnited States and I'm happy to
make those introductions for youbecause I think the end you're
going to give a report.
(24:37):
I know Fulbright is going to belooking for a report from you,
as they did for me, and it canbe very valuable.
Ironically, today, because ofbecause I was going to be
talking to a fellow Fulbrighter,I went back and I looked at the
lecture that I provided for theUniversity of Limerick Law
School and read it and it wasupsetting to me because I'm more
contemporaneous a speaker thanreading from a script.
But I was reading from a script, but the script and I'll share
(24:58):
it with you the script talkedabout the differential that I
had found between the UnitedStates and Ireland in this
particular case and in somecases, what I found and I think
you're seeing the same thingthat there are so many
differences where the UnitedStates is well ahead of what's
going on in the UK, but in manyinstances you're way ahead of
the United States in the UK,which is important.
(25:19):
But I want to talk about the30x30 program.
Are you familiar with that?
I am yes, great, great, great.
So you see an awful lot ofpeople who are sort of jumping
on the bandwagon.
30x30 is the brainchild of afew people, and I'm probably
missing a few, but one isMaureen MacGuff, when she was at
the National Institute ofJustice, and the other is Yvonne
Roman, who was out of NewJersey.
She was the chief in Newark fora while and they started this
(25:42):
idea of 30x30, let's try, by2030, to have 30% women in
policing, and then agencies havesigned on.
I know I'm preaching the choir.
I'm sure you know about that,but before you leave, if you
haven't spoken to them, I wantto make some arrangement for it,
because I think that would bevaluable.
What was the genesis?
What was the pushback?
Why was it so hard?
What was the point where youbegan to gain traction?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, no, I've spoken to quite a few members who
served on the committee of stillpart of the FID by Thursday and
listened to their experienceand their drive and passion.
I think it's a fantasticprogramme.
I understand it's a voluntaryprocess.
Not every force has signed upto it.
However, those that have arereally making the changes, are
really making the differencesagain in metropolitan police in
(26:24):
DC and they've increased theirrepresentation significantly.
I've spoken to the chief ofBoulder, chief Harold, and again
similar processes there.
So the programme that isworking is valuable and the
initiative to drive it justneeds that commitment and the
ongoing progression and I thinkby 2030 I think there will be
things across the target.
But, yeah, something that Iwill be taking back and
(26:46):
reflecting on that?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, that's good.
I'm glad your role as a leaderin developing others.
How do you see that?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Probably the most valuable role I will ever do to
get criminal investigations, toget seen investigations, etc.
It's developing my team, mypeers as well, to not only form
better but be better and leadbetter.
If I can leave my legacy behindor my examples, whether good or
bad, learn from me is what Isay to my team.
Learn from my mistakes,actually learn what I'm doing.
(27:14):
I think you can take lookingback from everyone you interact
with, whether they're your peersor not, whether they're the
leader or not.
That thing for me is keep youreyes open, listen, support and
make those decisions and bestanding by those decisions.
That leadership means it'ssomething that everyone can do
and everyone needs to, and bydoing it is what's going to be
supporting everyone else as well.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Talking to Anila Khalil Khan, chief Inspector,
will provide specialist side ofthe short South Yorkshire Police
Department in the.
Uk and I want to throw aquestion for you.
If I was to say to Anila I needyou to put together a new
training program for ChiefInspectors and I want it to be
(27:59):
on leadership.
What are the things that youwould see yourself including in
that training outline?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
That's a really good question and something that my
forces are currently puttingtogether, so it's quite
concerning For me.
What we need to teach ourfuture leaders is the I'm not
going to talk about the actualpolicing, because I think we
learn that, but it's likeconcentrating on the leadership.
I think we need to make themaware and somehow make sure they
(28:33):
know if someone else's lens somy lens is going to be that of
an agent female, yours is goingto be a white male.
We need to understand how itwould be for you, for me, a
person of colour or male, female, whatever how it would feel for
them.
We need to understand that.
We need to understand thebackground of things and we need
to educate of.
(28:54):
Let's look at the mistakes we'vemade in policing.
Equally with that, let's seehow we move forward and develop
and change and try to overcomethat hurdle.
We need to understand thebackground and therefore move
forward.
And we've got to understand andhave that sympathetic view of a
different lens, because I thinkthat will change the culture,
(29:14):
because we will ideally makeless mistakes if we could be
from someone else's point ofview.
That's the first thing For mehaving the ability to yes, you
and I have seen your leading ina very position where you are
the decision maker ultimately,but you've got to be humble
enough to accept your mistakesbut actually listen to others,
(29:36):
having that open the circle oftrust, the circle of
conversation and understandinghow we develop each other and
progress better as a team asopposed to an individual.
And actually the listeningskills and support skills go
hand in hand for me, supportingeach other and challenging them,
whether a challenge needs to bebe upstanders or not bystanders
(29:57):
, and stand up from what's notright and call it out.
There's a great movement backhome where we are doing that.
We're making positive changes,but things that have happened in
a negative manner whether thatcan be anything from a progeny
to racism to whatever it is weneed to stand together to
address these issues.
For me, the leadership is notonly the policing and the skills
and the decision making skillsthere, but actually it's
(30:19):
bettering themselves as well atunderstanding what's happened in
the past and how to not makethose mistakes again.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, I think, if I can react to that, that what we
begin to realize is thatleadership is about people and
policing is about people, and sounderstanding your people.
You talked about having empathy.
I love the active learningactually active learning, for
sure, and lifelong learning butthe deep listening skills, not
jumping to conclusions.
One of the things that I sayand I certainly have learned as
(30:46):
a leader myself is when you'regoing to call somebody out,
you're going to put them on thedefensive, and I think these are
conversations that cannot besolved with one sitting.
It's basically I need to talkto you, I need to talk to you
about something and I want youto think about, I want you to
reflect on it and once you getyour arms around it or your head
around it, let's talk again, sothat you don't have to sit
there and feel like I'mattacking you.
(31:08):
But let's continue theconversation.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
No, I think that's really good.
I think that's what we need tobe doing is, sometimes you can
carry on and not realize themistakes you've made until
someone points it out.
Yes, you're going to react tothat, but quite defensive.
But actually, if you sit backand understand where you could
have been misinterpreted orwhere the mistakes wouldn't be
made, and reflect on that, we'lldevelop you and make you a
better person.
So I'm a full supporter of that.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So part of those conversations are well, that's
the way you see it.
Let me tell you how I see it,how other people may perceive it
.
It's about perception, right,and sometimes people are blind
to the way others understand.
I really like trying to sitdown and get to know the people
who work for me, to understandtheir lived experience.
What you said was understandbackground.
(31:52):
In my mind, what you're sayingis understand history, history
of the individual, understandthe history of the organization
and understand the history ofeven somebody that you're
arresting.
Those are things that can bevery, very valuable.
I use again Covey, and that isone of the principles is seek
first to understand and then beunderstood.
And so I'm hearing that fromyou, which I think is important.
(32:16):
And I think coming to the ideaof policing your own lived
experience and policing as awoman is different.
Certainly, I mean, I'm thefather of three daughters, but
that does not make me perfect.
I'm still a man, but I can tellyou that the agent, both the
agents that I worked with andworked with me, what I tried
very hard to do is to understandtheir points of view whenever I
(32:36):
could, but also to encouragewomen to move along, move up,
take opportunities and I thinkthat's important.
I think it changes thecomplexion of an organization to
have a woman's intuition, awoman's point of view.
We're done being an all maleorganization.
The military has certainly thatdirection.
But back to your opportunityhere in the United States.
(32:58):
How lucky do you find yourselfto have this opportunity?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Can I just go back to the comment that you made just
about the women.
I would really know what I'dlike to add on that is yes, we
need women around the table andwomen in a male or an
anti-police environment and anyorganizations.
However, we do need to reflectthe community.
We do need to have people ofcolor and women of color as well
, so not just women.
I think we need to have a greatdemographic, because everyone's
(33:22):
got different experiences,everyone can bring different
things to the table, andbringing that together will make
the organization a better placeto work for and to be in as
well.
So that's the only thing Iwould like to add.
No, no, no, and I want tofollow up on that.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I think that's an extremely good point that I
missed.
You're absolutely right,because what happens is those
people of color or from adifferent religious practice.
That is extremely valuable tohelp the people around the table
who don't understand you.
As a Muslim woman, you can helpme understand what's going on,
why people are pissed off inthat community that's extremely
(33:53):
important but why the blackcommunity is upset, because you
can help be the voice and helpthose people around the table
understand the dilemma,understand that perspective.
So thank you for that.
That's a very, very, very bigpoint.
Anything else.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
And you hit the nail on the head.
It's really we are the voice.
We are the voice of thecommunity.
Because we've lived thatexperience, we've probably dealt
with things, our experiencethings slightly different from
everyone else.
We can be sympathetic a littlebit about things that we've
experienced and share that.
But yeah, we just need to havethat great representation in
every organisation, not just inplace in every major
(34:28):
organisation, because I thinkthat's how it becomes a better
place to be and we can worktogether and it's not.
We're fair and balanced andthat's the main drive really.
And then that's really linkedto my research, I think, the
question you were asking abouthow fortunate this opportunity
is.
I am extremely fortunate andthat's why I want to make the
most of it and do an experienceso many different things.
(34:50):
I'm thankful for myorganisation, staff, the ULTU
Police supporting me, theNational Black Police Office
Association, the UK Post meetingand, more importantly, for the
full bright for accepting me andallowing me on to this
programme.
It's the first time I've hadthis programme.
I'm the pioneer for it and Iwant to leave that.
Leave it and say, look, I havebeen able to do this.
Yes, it's been challenging.
(35:10):
Yes, it's been hard, gettinginto the right forums, the right
people, the right meetings.
But I'm hoping we canunderstand that I'm a determined
person and I've done that andI've achieved that and what I've
learned and the experience thatI've had here will take me
further, not just within police,but potentially wider than that
.
Working with the university.
I'm more of a practitioner thanan academic, but certainly
those to the academia world andunderstanding the challenges
(35:33):
that those guys have as well.
So, more importantly, I've seenand understood what the
community's saying.
So I've worked with, from thestudents at HALS University,
some really powerfulinterleaders there in law and in
their view.
So you know we're talking aboutyoung teenagers and grandkids
who have got a completelydifferent view to what I have,
and we're talking really intoconversations, which makes me
(35:55):
think of things in a differentway.
And just even being in DC andgoing to the numerous museums
here and reflecting on thehistory and why America is where
it is again, it's as valid, notonly my research but my own
development, and I get it now.
Well, I won't say that's thebig term, I get it now, but I
understand it a lot more now.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Have you been to the Holocaust Museum?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
No, I've got a book in place in the scene.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
That's.
I mean, that's chilling.
Or the African-American Museum,which is not too far from where
you are.
That's a relatively new one,and people who have gone there.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
I went to that one and that was probably my best
one that I've been to.
So it's so well laid out, sowell organized, and started from
the top and worked my way down,and I'm glad I did it that way,
because the lower ground is soheart wrenching and impactful.
So, yeah, so you know, theopportunity has been absolutely
fantastic and my advice foranyone would be if you have this
(36:50):
opportunity or a similaropportunity, please just snap it
up and take it and make it whatyou want from me to help it,
and that's what I will be doing.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Another thing that I wrote down as we were talking
and we're going to be windingdown pretty soon is while you're
in North Carolina, I'm hopingthat I can connect with you with
somebody regardingevidence-based policing, which I
know is very strong LarrySherman Dr Sherman over at
Cambridge University, that isvery, very influential in
evidence-based policing.
But here in America we've gotthe American Society of
Evidence-Based Policing and oneof I believe one of the founders
(37:20):
is in the area you're going tobe, so maybe we can connect you
right?
Renee Mitchell.
So yeah, I appreciate that and Iwant to try to hook you up with
members of the Drug EnforcementAdministration to while you're
down in North Carolina, so, aswe wind down and for the
listeners, I apologize for someof the technical difficulties
that we have had, but we seem tohave overcome it by switching
(37:42):
from Zoom alone to a phone calltalking to Anila Gileil Khan
from the South Yorkshire PoliceDepartment, now in the United
States on a full, bright visit,and I'm curious to find, as you
get ready to part with me, whatyou think you will do with the
knowledge from this comparisonthat you are able to live
(38:04):
between the United States andthe UK, the similarities and the
dissimilarities, and theopportunity you have to spread
the word back home.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah, and that comes to the amcom and source of what
I want to do.
That's the first and fourthmessage.
If there's anything I can takeback to my source and why?
Go in the UK and you know, sayAmerica is doing this or certain
states are doing this, what,why don't we consider it?
It's those little things that Ican share and there's quick
hits, but why doesn't that?
My aim and my ambition is towork with Sheffield Hall
(38:33):
University and work withAlbright to spread the learning
and spread my understanding andresearch project and see how we
can sort of develop an adapt onthat, obviously hopefully
working with National BlackPolice Office Association in the
UK, sort of lecturing andspeaking from their point of
view.
I've already been inconversations with Hallam
University seeing if there'sanything we can work with their
(38:53):
students as well.
So they do.
They work quite closely withSouth Yorkshire Police in the
recruitment and the occasionsthat if there's anything I can
do that this opportunity hasactually opened so many more
opportunities that I've got tobe careful of what I say, yes
and no.
So but I'm so passionate aboutit I just want to share.
You know it's one of those sayyes to everything because you
(39:13):
know, you don't know where itwould lead.
But actually, more importantly,I don't know yet what impact I
will leave.
Because, as I said before, isthat legacy?
We need to change the mindsetfor young female officers girls,
ladies, women of colour that,yes, policing is a great career,
policing is a valuable careerand you can make that difference
and you can join it.
You can get higher levels.
(39:33):
That's the most important thingthat I want to leave behind is
the young girl at school thinkoh, what shall I do?
I want to get to play difficult.
They'll see someone whoactually looks like them,
reflect them and take somethingaway.
Yes, there's lecture in thispaper that wants to write.
There's some research I want todo.
There's people I want to workwith.
That's all great.
That's all fantastic.
It's reaching out.
The young women and girls ofcolour, of any ethnicity say we
(39:55):
can do this.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
That's great well, not only your leader, but your
role model, and you want to payforward, which I think is so
amazing.
We have been talking to AnilKhalil Khan.
She is a detective chiefinspector from the South
Yorkshire Police Department.
She is a full right specialist,in essence, on assignments in
the United States, both in theDC area and headed to North
Carolina.
(40:16):
Before you head back, when doyou head back?
I go back to mid-August okay,so how do people get in touch
with you?
Speaker 3 (40:22):
so I've got a LinkedIn profile, anil Khalil
Khan, I've got a Twitter accountand I handle it at Anila KK or,
obviously, my email, which Ican provide a sneak peek.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
That's terrific well, thank you.
Thanks so much for your time,for your energy, safe travels as
you go from Washington later inthe week to North Carolina.
Quite different, I might say,but I think you'll enjoy as much
your time in North Carolina.
So thank you to Anila.
That's another episode of thecop doc podcast.
Stay tuned for more episodes.
Anila, thank you very muchthank you, I appreciate that
(40:54):
stand by for more episodes inthe coming weeks.
We're talking to people fromNorthern Ireland, from Canada
and from the United States aswell as others from the UK have
a good day, stay safe thanks forlistening to the cop doc
podcast with Dr Steve Moriali.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from western state
university.
Please tune into the cop docpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to the Cop Doc podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The cop doc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorialli and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on the
cop doc podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, hello everybody .
Again, Steve Morialli coming toyou from Boston, and today
we're talking to somebody on theother side of the pond, but
Anila Khalil Khan is actually inthe United States.
She's in Washington DC, headedto North Carolina later.
She is here on a full, brightscholarship.
Good morning to you, Anila.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Good morning, you okay.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I am okay.
Thank you, we're very, veryhappy to have you on.
You are a detective chiefinspector at South Yorkshire
Police Department and you'vebeen doing this for almost 20
years, but you're in the UnitedStates.
So I want to talk about a wholebunch of things.
We'll talk about leadership,about your police department,
about your experience and thecomparison between what you're
finding in the United States andyou're still searching and the
(01:25):
UK.
So tell us about you first howlong you've been in policing,
why policing?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, so morning everyone.
So I've been in the police 20years.
As I said, I'm in SouthYorkshire Police, facing the
place called Rotherham.
So just a little bit backgroundabout South Yorkshire.
In the central of UK, englandit's basically Yorkshire quite
rural but with some big citiesin there as well.
South Yorkshire is made up offour cities Rotherham, doncaster
, barnsley and Sheffield.
I live in Sheffield but workingin Rotherham, and I've been
(01:51):
based South Yorkshire for 20years now.
Prior to joining the police, Iwas a student.
My undergrad was chemistry andforensics and it got to a stage
where I was leaving universityand thinking about what I want
to do with my career, where Idon't want to go and it was
actually my father back in theday 20 years ago said well, why
don't you consider the police,see what's on offer and maybe
consider going to the forensicsside of policing?
(02:12):
So I went for an open day and,as they say, the rest is history
.
I joined at the age of 22,chose at the university and back
in the UK.
What we used to do then is youhad your 15 week training
program and then progressed fortwo years as what we used to
call a probation officer, astudent officer, learning your
trade, learning your craft.
(02:33):
Pretty much soon after my justunder two years, I realised I
wanted to be a detective andtherefore sat my detective exams
and absolutely loved CID work,criminal investigation work.
I kind of reflected back really.
I just did quite a fewdifferent roles within CID.
So initially it was what weclass as reactive CID, dealing
(02:53):
with a general serious crime,complex crime, specialising to
adult and child abuse.
For five years they were themost valuable years, to be
honest with me, most rewardingyears as well and then did some
projects etc.
And then was promoted tosergeant, led some fantastic
team of officers, moved up tobeing a detective inspector and
then was finally promoted in2019, end of 2019 as the
(03:18):
detective inspector.
Now I know the ranking systembetween the US and the UK is
slightly different, but I thinkwhen I'm comparing my rank to
the US, it's between a captainand a commander.
So I've got, like I said, abase in Rotherham and I've got
the crime functions.
They're all criminalinvestigation.
I lead on them.
I've got some fantasticofficers.
(03:38):
So we deal with domestic abuse,child abuse, adult abuse,
general CID, and then wespecialise in what we call
proactive CID, which is yourguns, drugs, violence, etc.
Yes, the fantastic team.
So yeah, that's a quicksnapshot of my 20 years in
policing.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, what I think is unusual for those listening in
the United States, but for thosein the UK and Ireland and in
Europe, what is different Ithink you're beginning to find
this out is the training here inthe United States is you go
into the academy 23 a week, say,and there is a wide spans
between 12 and 25 and maybe 30weeks, and then you're done and
you're on probation for maybefive or six months afterwards
(04:14):
and now you are full fledged.
For you you just said you're inthe academy for 50 weeks.
In essence, you're on probationfor three years and you have to
prove yourself right along theway.
You have to have boards, youhave to sit down.
I suppose you have to write ajournal or a portfolio to say
this is what I did, this is howI handle it, this is what
reflection was.
Here's how I could have done itbetter, here's what I needed to
(04:35):
know, and this is something I'mreally pushing in the United
States because I think it's sovaluable because we come out of
the United States in the academy.
I've been through three or fourof them and it is you're done.
Get to work right.
It's that it's different whereyou are.
Talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Yeah, it's interesting how you say that.
So when you join the police,it's slightly different nowadays
because there's differentschemes, different methods of
joining or entering into police.
However, when I joined theE-Class of GCSEs, high school
education, english, math, etc.
And the process of joining sothere's an application form,
there's some testing, so it'syour English writing list
(05:13):
obviously, then your physicaltesting and then when you start
what?
Five weeks of training at theacademy.
Now I went away for Academy andthere was a place called Durham
in the UK and it's where youlearn your basic policing.
You love your self-deferredprotection and you get to know
your colleagues who youpotentially will be working with
.
You will be learning the basicsand learning how to be safe and
(05:35):
competent and be a policeofficer.
After those 15 weeks you thencome back to your district or
your force.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
First of all, you just said 15, not 50 weeks.
One, five, yes, Okay, my bad, Iheard 50.
Sorry about that, but what Iwant you to do, I think I'd love
to see you.
So we're talking to AnilaKhalil Khan.
She is a detective chiefinspector at South Yorkshire
Police Department.
What I have failed to say isshe's here on a full-bite
scholarship and she is beinghosted by Howard University in
North Carolina CentralUniversity and that's where
(06:03):
she's headed pretty soon.
I've had that same experienceof being a full-brider, as
you'll be called quite soon, butwe were talking about the
police training and then comingback.
Continue on that vein.
You finished the 15 week, not50, but you finished the 15 week
academy and for a few yearsyou're sort of still on
probation.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So what is that like?
Once you return back to yourforce after your 15 week, you're
then working with a tutor, amentor, and that's as your
independent or your tutoredphase, and it's basically
putting what you've learned atthe training school into
practice.
So you are going out, walkingthe beat, walking dealing with
incidents like a normal officerwould, but you've always got
(06:42):
your colleague there with youwho's shadowing you, examining
you at the same time and makingsure that you're competent and
suitable.
That lasts for 15, sort of forthe 10 weeks Again, this is when
I joined, so it's slightlydifferent now and in that period
you will then do your drivingtraining, so what we call the
blue light training, where youare able or competent to drive
the police vehicles respondingto emergencies, etc.
(07:05):
This process is over two yearsand, as you said earlier, in
that two years you do have towrite a journal it's a portfolio
and hit certain criteria andsay right, I have stopped
searching someone, I have spokenat a, dealt with their incident
, I have interviewed someone andwe put case files in to go to
court.
So I have put a case file in, soyou have to evidence everything
(07:26):
that you've done in that period.
Your tutor then signs you offsaying, yes, this person is
competent and capable to be outon patrol on their own and
obviously a signed off policeofficer, a substantive police
officer as we would call.
So, yeah, the period lastsbetween two to three years, but
in that two to three years youare continually getting training
.
It's 15 weeks in the academy,back into the police force, 10
(07:47):
weeks independent patrol, butconstantly if you've fed
different parts of criteria thatyou need to meet certain sort
of legislation.
That thought out process I havementioned that was when I
joined.
It is slightly different now.
So there's different routes inthe UK to get into policing.
I can touch on those if youwould like me to.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
There's so much to talk about beyond police.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
My undergrads, well for my bachelor's was at
Bradford University of Bradfordand that was chemistry with
forensics.
And then I joined the policeand then, whilst I was in the
police, I did my masters incriminology at Sheffield Hallam
University.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So you went to Bradford and then you went on
for a masters of science degreein criminology.
Talk about that.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, so it was 2008-2009, I was at a place that
where I was confident, capableand obviously just on my
detectives exams.
The thing with me, steve, is Ilike to learn, I like to educate
myself and keep into into loopwith stuff and I thought, well,
I'll study for a master's degree, knowing that I was working
full-time and wanted somethingclose to home and sort of that
(08:45):
flexibility of going intouniversity.
So I applied for a master'sprogramme in criminology at
Sheffield Hallam University anddid that in 2008,.
Graduated in 2009.
What a fantastic, fantasticcourse, met some brilliant
people there.
So, yeah, that was in 2009.
So it was a difficult year,just with working full-time,
just moving into CID andstudying full-time, but it was
(09:08):
really rewarding.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Well, when we do that , it's very hard to do both and
to balance.
But once it's done, it's doneand they can't take it away from
you, right?
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
So I'm familiar with Sheffield because I've done some
work with with a couple offaculty members on academics
practical academics which I findpretty interesting.
But let's talk about Fulbright.
Here you are in the UnitedStates, in Washington.
I have been watching you onLinkedIn on the things you have
(09:41):
done, the places you havevisited, the inquiries you have
made, and when we talked theother day offline we talked
about how receptive generallypolice are for anybody who
carries a badge anywhere in theworld.
Is that what you're feeling asyou go from place to place in
the United States?
Speaker 3 (10:04):
100%.
So just a background aboutachieving or gaining the
Fulbright.
It was last year I applied forthe Fulbright process.
It was the UK US Commission forFulbright and in partnership
with the National Black PoliceOffice Association in the UK,
and it was a three-monthresearch project over in the US,
(10:27):
seconded or affiliated to twouniversities one in Howard in DC
and one North Carolina Central.
Both are with the historicalblack universities.
The research that my work isundergoing, or that I am
undergoing, is women in policing, in particular, women of color,
(10:50):
replacing how we recruit,retain and progress them to
senior levels.
This is something that I'm verypassionate about.
Obviously, being a lady, awoman of color and from a Muslim
background.
It's something that I want toleave that legacy behind when I
retire.
I want to make sure that theworkforce is reflecting our
(11:14):
communities.
So that's what's really broughtme to the US For six weeks in
DC area.
It's been absolutely fantastic.
I've obviously worked with theuniversity law school, met some
brilliant professors andstudents, where I've learned a
lot and really the American viewand the American perspective on
(11:36):
things and actually what I cansay.
Wider than that, I've also thenworked with alongside and
interviewed members of theMetropolitan Police Department
and Montgomery County Police,the chiefs there and the
assistants, and been on a ridealong with a couple of officers.
And you're right, yes, thepolicing is different in UK,
(12:01):
that goes without saying.
But what we can all rely on isthat blue line.
We are all but from the policeand family, and that really what
brings us together.
We all have had hurdleseveryone and barriers that we've
had to overcome in faith, butactually we are where we are
because we're doing it for theright reasons, and that was the
underlying tone in everyone thatI've met.
(12:23):
They've joined for the rightreasons and those reasons are to
serve the community, to make ita better place and give
something back.
And the challenges that we allhave and the progress that we
all have are very similar and sowe can resonate on that.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, here in the United States, as you know, as
you well know that there aremany a detractor of policing,
many negative views of policing,some earned and many of them
not earned.
But I also know that it carriesover across the globe.
So, part of the community andpart of certainly the community
(12:59):
of color, many feel that they'redisenfranchised and the police
don't understand them, thepolice don't care about them.
Is it the same where you arefrom?
Speaker 3 (13:07):
I think we can reflect on both UK, us and
nationally, globally havingincidents where there have been
reasons for certain communitymembers to be aggrieved or
pushback and say, actually, thisis not right, this is not fair
and we have to accept that, wehave to acknowledge that.
But actually we have to see howwe can improve and make sure we
(13:28):
don't make those mistakes again, and I think that's what all
police forces are currentlydoing.
Yes, there's been mistakes inthe past but, yes, we are moving
forward and I can sort of mostrecently again globally, since
the pandemic and the GeorgeFloyd incident and certain
incidents in the UK that haveoccurred which have made some
distrust, really from certaincommunity members.
(13:49):
However, what we are now doingand both in the US and in the UK
, we are trying to address thoseissues.
We are trying to say, look,these mistakes have happened,
work with us to improve.
And that's certainly going backto the UK.
We are doing that.
We've got a national race actionplan which each force is
pushing and driving, and talkingabout my local force, south
Yorkshire, we are, we aredriving that, we are working.
(14:10):
And the race action plan I'mnot sure if you're aware of it,
it's more sort of concentratedon the black community, showing
them that the police are there,getting that trust and
confidence back.
We've got a dedicated team inthe UK and certain forces and
especially my force.
We've got a superintendentleading on this.
We've held, and will continueto hold, several engagement
events with our communities andjust making opening those doors,
(14:31):
opening those conversations andmoving forward.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Well, thank you.
We're talking to Anila KhalilKhan.
She's a detective chiefinspector.
She's in the United Statesright now, but she is from South
Yorkshire and Central UK andCentral England.
She's a Fulbright specialistand she's here at Howard
University, north CarolinaCentral University.
She's headed there very, verysoon.
But I want to talk a little bitabout Anila is becoming a
leader.
Here.
You are a line officer.
(14:56):
You raise your hand, you takethe test, you are now a sergeant
and you have the ranks andthere's a learning process about
dealing with people, becauseyou're no longer responsible
only self.
Now you're responsible for asmall group of people.
As you came into that newposition, tell us, if you would,
about what kinds of trainingthat you receive to get ready
(15:16):
for that next level.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Yeah.
So again, in my my force is ourfuture.
What we do for our officers,candidates for movement from
level to level, is we give thema leadership training program
frontline we call it frontlineleaders and it starts as on the
sergeant level and every personwho passes that test become a
sergeant will go on this courseand then that those courses.
(15:38):
They're really, really valuable.
You can take a lot away fromthem.
They are how do we havedifferent conversations?
How do we work with ourofficers?
How do we challenge where weneed to challenge?
How do we support?
It gives you a wide breadth ofexperience, knowledge and you're
working and you train withlike-minded people, everyone who
has passed that test.
So you're all sharingexperiences, challenges that you
(16:01):
may have had, what's worked foryou.
So it's that internal communitythat we've created.
Each level I've had certaintraining aspects, so moving up
from sort of middle, lowmanagement to middle management.
It's that continuing learningcycle.
Although my force port providesthat training, we are reviewing
this and putting some moretraining out.
But what I've also done is donesome homework as well and done
(16:23):
in my private time some learning, some reading to educate myself
and to better myself and tomake sure that I'm a fair and
competent leader for my team.
So, yeah, it's a bit of both.
It's a bit of working in thework environment, but actually
some learning and reading thatI've done externals to that as
well.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
As we continue on and you are now a detective chief
inspector, you go from runningbriefings to running meetings
and to have group meetings andunit meetings.
And what kinds of mistakes,missteps do you recall that you
now learned from in terms ofrunning meetings?
I'm sure my own experience hasbeen that I worked for some old
(17:02):
timers who were very autocraticand they would call everybody in
and they would say we got to dothis, this, this and this, any
questions out the door, and theyreally don't want questions.
It's a different time now.
Have you gone through thatprocess?
Have you made some changes inthe way you run your meetings so
they're more participative andyou're getting feedback from the
crew, because you realize wedon't know it all?
Speaker 3 (17:23):
100% exactly that.
On your first week, your firstday, your first month as a
leader, you're still learning,you're continually learning.
So you will have to.
You know.
You come in thinking about Ineed to conduct this meeting,
this briefing, in this manner.
You then reflect on this andthink, actually, this didn't
work, I should try and adapt itand change it.
So you continually learning,and to this day I'm still
learning, I'm still adapting.
And then I think it'd be adiscredit to myself if I said
(17:45):
I'm a finished article, becauseno one is.
We're all continually changingand adapting.
In policing it's slightlydifferent in as much as the raw
circumstances and situationswhere you have to be autocratic.
So, for example, if I'minvestigating a murder
investigation or a kidnapinvestigation and it's quite a
fast pace I have to be right.
This is what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
So we're talking to Anila Khalil Khan.
She is a chief inspector and afull writer in Washington and
North Carolina for the next fewmonths and we've had some
technical difficulties so we'veswitched from one mode to
telephone, so hopefully we cancontinue the conversation.
What you were talking aboutbefore I lost you, anila, was
conversation about morphing froma street supervisor to a leader
(18:29):
of a group, especially ininvestigations, and you were
talking about sometimes you haveto be taught down in certain
circumstances to tell somebodyto do something right away, for
whatever reason, for tacticalreasons, right, but also how you
run your meetings now, so thatyou can learn from each other.
So talk a little bit about yourstyle and how it's changed over
some time?
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, so what I have at the moment I've got 14 full
sergeants.
I have a monthly meeting witheach department where I invite
the expected sergeant.
It's a split process really.
So we discuss performance anddata.
So that's what we then discuss.
I think that's that quality andit's that's what's more
important the health andwell-being of our team.
So it's a more of aninteractive like all shared
(19:13):
ideas, a compare contract andcome to an agreement.
So it's not me top down sayingwhat we have to do once.
Obviously I need to know whatneeds to tell them what our sort
of focus is for that moment.
But equally, there's sharedmeetings and they will meet
Anila's going to have a weeklymeeting with my inspector catch
up again and share and exchangeknowledge Over time.
Obviously, as you mature intothe role like you're learning
(19:35):
the role and as you're showingyourself, your style, your
communication style, yourleadership style continually
changes and I think it willcontinue to change, because I'm
not the finished off and I don'tthink anyone is.
We're all learning and we'reall adapted.
You pick things up, you thinklike you relate me to the
connect, so did that really wellor could have been better?
There I changed and that's theway I am.
I sort of reflect on me toreflect my performance and
(19:57):
actually adapt myself.
I also then speak to people andspeak to my peers and sort of
share my dreams with them, justto breast in myself.
If I am the right leader, inthe right frame of mind and I'm
conducting myself, it will makemy dreams perform.
And that's the whole program Anopen door policy.
Let's go, stick around.
And yes, I am on paper on theleader, yes, I am the manager.
Relax with me between us, andwe're all in it.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
So Anila is a Detective, chief Inspector,
fulbright Specialist, here inthe United States.
While we speak, she's inWashington, headed to North
Carolina pretty soon.
Let's go back for a moment toyour experience in the United
States.
It was my experience when I wasin Ireland and I had great
opportunity, as you do, to movearound throughout the country
and to talk to people and knockon doors and present myself and
(20:40):
go to the inspectorate and go tothe headquarters and go to cab
criminal assets bureau and go tothe detectives and go to the
stock team, the basically thetactical team, and in every
little city and town that I wentto just to show up at a guard
station.
You're doing similar stuff inWashington and my sense was that
you're as curious as they areabout you.
(21:01):
What's your experience so farwith the questions that you're
being asked?
This is as much as you'reasking questions.
I'm sure there are questionsboomerang back at you 100%.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
And the first question I over get is why don't
you carry in firearms?
What the hell's wrong with youguys Exactly and actually when
we then progress to a lengthy,detailed conversation and
actually it's a reallyinteresting conversation where I
claim that we do have somecertain officers who carry
firearms so predominantly wedon't and we explain that police
(21:32):
weapons and de-escalation anddisbanding and the fact that
obviously firearms are notlegalized back in the UK and in
a certain state that they have,and sort of understand the
differences and why we are likethat, and it opens a lot.
There are many moreconversations from there.
Just a little very curious.
But what the under as I saidbefore, the underlying tone is
we are very similar.
(21:53):
We have the same challenges,the same problem, the same good
work ethic at the same drivethat although we're completely
different countries, but we arevery similar in as much as what
our outlook is and where we wantto achieve.
There's obviously other certainkey aspects that were different
apart from the firearm themakeup of the teams, the number
of resources that have thedifferent aspects that have.
(22:13):
Obviously, dc is such adifferent and you need to play
the word you can only reallycompare it to Metropolitan
Police, london Police and the UKbecause you've got government
officials here, you've got thesecret services etc.
So it's difficult to compare tomy board.
However, yes, there's loads ofconversation, loads of learning
and both ways are both taken alot away and compare and share
(22:34):
in as well.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So, ultimately, what is your goal, what is the
purpose of your visit, what areyou trying to ascertain?
Speaker 3 (22:41):
So my full black.
All of research is in relationto women who police and into
women of colour and policing,how we recruit, retain and
progress them into policing.
This is something I'm extremelypassionate about being a lady
of colour, a Muslim officer,working in what historically was
a predominantly male or in apolice in place.
I can say in the UK we havechanged that dramatically as
(23:01):
much as we've got a significantnumber of women in police now a
significant number of women ofhigher ranks.
She's comfortable, she'scomfortable, etc.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
They see your leaders and it's a woman.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yes, she's come to a lot of parties emails.
She's been imposed for years.
We've got Sarah Coleman asassistant chief comfortable.
We've got several female chiefssuper.
So we've got a number of higherranking female officers.
What we do struggle with whichis where my research is coming
in is how do we get women ofcolour whether that's a black
lady, an Asian lady that's ourAsian legislature to get to the
(23:31):
higher ranks.
So I'm the high ranking femaleof colour in my school.
There's loads of people behindme, but I want to leave that
legacy for the new recruitsother girls, other females,
other female of colour.
So it's possible.
Let's light that ceiling, let'sget there.
We've massively done it withwomen, but let's get that.
Let's get it represented byfemales of colour as well, and
that's really what my drive is.
It says anything that ishappening in the US I could take
(23:54):
back and like whether there'sanything happening in the UK
that I could share with the US.
Now, obviously, with timeconstrictions, I am at a
restraint.
I am limited on how many placesI can visit.
However, I have a certainnumber of female officers female
female chief of colour andagain it's the same story the
work part.
It's got where they are becauseof their ability and capability
(24:14):
, and that's something that Iwill be taking back.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
Well, if I can suggest a few people, I'll try
to connect you when we're done.
I'll give you some potentiallypoints of contact, but I think
while you're here in the UnitedStates yes, you're focused on
North Carolina and you'refocused on Washington, but
there's a whole bunch morepeople out there that you can
connect with while you're in theUnited States and I'm happy to
make those introductions for youbecause I think the end you're
going to give a report.
(24:37):
I know Fulbright is going to belooking for a report from you,
as they did for me, and it canbe very valuable.
Ironically, today, because ofbecause I was going to be
talking to a fellow Fulbrighter,I went back and I looked at the
lecture that I provided for theUniversity of Limerick Law
School and read it and it wasupsetting to me because I'm more
contemporaneous a speaker thanreading from a script.
But I was reading from a script, but the script and I'll share
(24:58):
it with you the script talkedabout the differential that I
had found between the UnitedStates and Ireland in this
particular case and in somecases, what I found and I think
you're seeing the same thingthat there are so many
differences where the UnitedStates is well ahead of what's
going on in the UK, but in manyinstances you're way ahead of
the United States in the UK,which is important.
(25:19):
But I want to talk about the30x30 program.
Are you familiar with that?
I am yes, great, great, great.
So you see an awful lot ofpeople who are sort of jumping
on the bandwagon.
30x30 is the brainchild of afew people, and I'm probably
missing a few, but one isMaureen MacGuff, when she was at
the National Institute ofJustice, and the other is Yvonne
Roman, who was out of NewJersey.
She was the chief in Newark fora while and they started this
(25:42):
idea of 30x30, let's try, by2030, to have 30% women in
policing, and then agencies havesigned on.
I know I'm preaching the choir.
I'm sure you know about that,but before you leave, if you
haven't spoken to them, I wantto make some arrangement for it,
because I think that would bevaluable.
What was the genesis?
What was the pushback?
Why was it so hard?
What was the point where youbegan to gain traction?
Speaker 3 (26:03):
Yeah, no, I've spoken to quite a few members who
served on the committee of stillpart of the FID by Thursday and
listened to their experienceand their drive and passion.
I think it's a fantasticprogramme.
I understand it's a voluntaryprocess.
Not every force has signed upto it.
However, those that have arereally making the changes, are
really making the differencesagain in metropolitan police in
(26:24):
DC and they've increased theirrepresentation significantly.
I've spoken to the chief ofBoulder, chief Harold, and again
similar processes there.
So the programme that isworking is valuable and the
initiative to drive it justneeds that commitment and the
ongoing progression and I thinkby 2030 I think there will be
things across the target.
But, yeah, something that Iwill be taking back and
(26:46):
reflecting on that?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Yeah, that's good.
I'm glad your role as a leaderin developing others.
How do you see that?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
Probably the most valuable role I will ever do to
get criminal investigations, toget seen investigations, etc.
It's developing my team, mypeers as well, to not only form
better but be better and leadbetter.
If I can leave my legacy behindor my examples, whether good or
bad, learn from me is what Isay to my team.
Learn from my mistakes,actually learn what I'm doing.
(27:14):
I think you can take lookingback from everyone you interact
with, whether they're your peersor not, whether they're the
leader or not.
That thing for me is keep youreyes open, listen, support and
make those decisions and bestanding by those decisions.
That leadership means it'ssomething that everyone can do
and everyone needs to, and bydoing it is what's going to be
supporting everyone else as well.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Talking to Anila Khalil Khan, chief Inspector,
will provide specialist side ofthe short South Yorkshire Police
Department in the.
Uk and I want to throw aquestion for you.
If I was to say to Anila I needyou to put together a new
training program for ChiefInspectors and I want it to be
(27:59):
on leadership.
What are the things that youwould see yourself including in
that training outline?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
That's a really good question and something that my
forces are currently puttingtogether, so it's quite
concerning For me.
What we need to teach ourfuture leaders is the I'm not
going to talk about the actualpolicing, because I think we
learn that, but it's likeconcentrating on the leadership.
I think we need to make themaware and somehow make sure they
(28:33):
know if someone else's lens somy lens is going to be that of
an agent female, yours is goingto be a white male.
We need to understand how itwould be for you, for me, a
person of colour or male, female, whatever how it would feel for
them.
We need to understand that.
We need to understand thebackground of things and we need
to educate of.
(28:54):
Let's look at the mistakes we'vemade in policing.
Equally with that, let's seehow we move forward and develop
and change and try to overcomethat hurdle.
We need to understand thebackground and therefore move
forward.
And we've got to understand andhave that sympathetic view of a
different lens, because I thinkthat will change the culture,
(29:14):
because we will ideally makeless mistakes if we could be
from someone else's point ofview.
That's the first thing For mehaving the ability to yes, you
and I have seen your leading ina very position where you are
the decision maker ultimately,but you've got to be humble
enough to accept your mistakesbut actually listen to others,
(29:36):
having that open the circle oftrust, the circle of
conversation and understandinghow we develop each other and
progress better as a team asopposed to an individual.
And actually the listeningskills and support skills go
hand in hand for me, supportingeach other and challenging them,
whether a challenge needs to bebe upstanders or not bystanders
(29:57):
, and stand up from what's notright and call it out.
There's a great movement backhome where we are doing that.
We're making positive changes,but things that have happened in
a negative manner whether thatcan be anything from a progeny
to racism to whatever it is weneed to stand together to
address these issues.
For me, the leadership is notonly the policing and the skills
and the decision making skillsthere, but actually it's
(30:19):
bettering themselves as well atunderstanding what's happened in
the past and how to not makethose mistakes again.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Well, I think, if I can react to that, that what we
begin to realize is thatleadership is about people and
policing is about people, and sounderstanding your people.
You talked about having empathy.
I love the active learningactually active learning, for
sure, and lifelong learning butthe deep listening skills, not
jumping to conclusions.
One of the things that I sayand I certainly have learned as
(30:46):
a leader myself is when you'regoing to call somebody out,
you're going to put them on thedefensive, and I think these are
conversations that cannot besolved with one sitting.
It's basically I need to talkto you, I need to talk to you
about something and I want youto think about, I want you to
reflect on it and once you getyour arms around it or your head
around it, let's talk again, sothat you don't have to sit
there and feel like I'mattacking you.
(31:08):
But let's continue theconversation.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (31:11):
No, I think that's really good.
I think that's what we need tobe doing is, sometimes you can
carry on and not realize themistakes you've made until
someone points it out.
Yes, you're going to react tothat, but quite defensive.
But actually, if you sit backand understand where you could
have been misinterpreted orwhere the mistakes wouldn't be
made, and reflect on that, we'lldevelop you and make you a
better person.
So I'm a full supporter of that.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
So part of those conversations are well, that's
the way you see it.
Let me tell you how I see it,how other people may perceive it
.
It's about perception, right,and sometimes people are blind
to the way others understand.
I really like trying to sitdown and get to know the people
who work for me, to understandtheir lived experience.
What you said was understandbackground.
(31:52):
In my mind, what you're sayingis understand history, history
of the individual, understandthe history of the organization
and understand the history ofeven somebody that you're
arresting.
Those are things that can bevery, very valuable.
I use again Covey, and that isone of the principles is seek
first to understand and then beunderstood.
And so I'm hearing that fromyou, which I think is important.
(32:16):
And I think coming to the ideaof policing your own lived
experience and policing as awoman is different.
Certainly, I mean, I'm thefather of three daughters, but
that does not make me perfect.
I'm still a man, but I can tellyou that the agent, both the
agents that I worked with andworked with me, what I tried
very hard to do is to understandtheir points of view whenever I
(32:36):
could, but also to encouragewomen to move along, move up,
take opportunities and I thinkthat's important.
I think it changes thecomplexion of an organization to
have a woman's intuition, awoman's point of view.
We're done being an all maleorganization.
The military has certainly thatdirection.
But back to your opportunityhere in the United States.
(32:58):
How lucky do you find yourselfto have this opportunity?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
Can I just go back to the comment that you made just
about the women.
I would really know what I'dlike to add on that is yes, we
need women around the table andwomen in a male or an
anti-police environment and anyorganizations.
However, we do need to reflectthe community.
We do need to have people ofcolor and women of color as well
, so not just women.
I think we need to have a greatdemographic, because everyone's
(33:22):
got different experiences,everyone can bring different
things to the table, andbringing that together will make
the organization a better placeto work for and to be in as
well.
So that's the only thing Iwould like to add.
No, no, no, and I want tofollow up on that.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I think that's an extremely good point that I
missed.
You're absolutely right,because what happens is those
people of color or from adifferent religious practice.
That is extremely valuable tohelp the people around the table
who don't understand you.
As a Muslim woman, you can helpme understand what's going on,
why people are pissed off inthat community that's extremely
(33:53):
important but why the blackcommunity is upset, because you
can help be the voice and helpthose people around the table
understand the dilemma,understand that perspective.
So thank you for that.
That's a very, very, very bigpoint.
Anything else.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
And you hit the nail on the head.
It's really we are the voice.
We are the voice of thecommunity.
Because we've lived thatexperience, we've probably dealt
with things, our experiencethings slightly different from
everyone else.
We can be sympathetic a littlebit about things that we've
experienced and share that.
But yeah, we just need to havethat great representation in
every organisation, not just inplace in every major
(34:28):
organisation, because I thinkthat's how it becomes a better
place to be and we can worktogether and it's not.
We're fair and balanced andthat's the main drive really.
And then that's really linkedto my research, I think, the
question you were asking abouthow fortunate this opportunity
is.
I am extremely fortunate andthat's why I want to make the
most of it and do an experienceso many different things.
(34:50):
I'm thankful for myorganisation, staff, the ULTU
Police supporting me, theNational Black Police Office
Association, the UK Post meetingand, more importantly, for the
full bright for accepting me andallowing me on to this
programme.
It's the first time I've hadthis programme.
I'm the pioneer for it and Iwant to leave that.
Leave it and say, look, I havebeen able to do this.
Yes, it's been challenging.
(35:10):
Yes, it's been hard, gettinginto the right forums, the right
people, the right meetings.
But I'm hoping we canunderstand that I'm a determined
person and I've done that andI've achieved that and what I've
learned and the experience thatI've had here will take me
further, not just within police,but potentially wider than that
.
Working with the university.
I'm more of a practitioner thanan academic, but certainly
those to the academia world andunderstanding the challenges
(35:33):
that those guys have as well.
So, more importantly, I've seenand understood what the
community's saying.
So I've worked with, from thestudents at HALS University,
some really powerfulinterleaders there in law and in
their view.
So you know we're talking aboutyoung teenagers and grandkids
who have got a completelydifferent view to what I have,
and we're talking really intoconversations, which makes me
(35:55):
think of things in a differentway.
And just even being in DC andgoing to the numerous museums
here and reflecting on thehistory and why America is where
it is again, it's as valid, notonly my research but my own
development, and I get it now.
Well, I won't say that's thebig term, I get it now, but I
understand it a lot more now.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Have you been to the Holocaust Museum?
Speaker 3 (36:18):
No, I've got a book in place in the scene.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
That's.
I mean, that's chilling.
Or the African-American Museum,which is not too far from where
you are.
That's a relatively new one,and people who have gone there.
Speaker 3 (36:29):
I went to that one and that was probably my best
one that I've been to.
So it's so well laid out, sowell organized, and started from
the top and worked my way down,and I'm glad I did it that way,
because the lower ground is soheart wrenching and impactful.
So, yeah, so you know, theopportunity has been absolutely
fantastic and my advice foranyone would be if you have this
(36:50):
opportunity or a similaropportunity, please just snap it
up and take it and make it whatyou want from me to help it,
and that's what I will be doing.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Another thing that I wrote down as we were talking
and we're going to be windingdown pretty soon is while you're
in North Carolina, I'm hopingthat I can connect with you with
somebody regardingevidence-based policing, which I
know is very strong LarrySherman Dr Sherman over at
Cambridge University, that isvery, very influential in
evidence-based policing.
But here in America we've gotthe American Society of
Evidence-Based Policing and oneof I believe one of the founders
(37:20):
is in the area you're going tobe, so maybe we can connect you
right?
Renee Mitchell.
So yeah, I appreciate that and Iwant to try to hook you up with
members of the Drug EnforcementAdministration to while you're
down in North Carolina, so, aswe wind down and for the
listeners, I apologize for someof the technical difficulties
that we have had, but we seem tohave overcome it by switching
(37:42):
from Zoom alone to a phone calltalking to Anila Gileil Khan
from the South Yorkshire PoliceDepartment, now in the United
States on a full, bright visit,and I'm curious to find, as you
get ready to part with me, whatyou think you will do with the
knowledge from this comparisonthat you are able to live
(38:04):
between the United States andthe UK, the similarities and the
dissimilarities, and theopportunity you have to spread
the word back home.
Speaker 3 (38:12):
Yeah, and that comes to the amcom and source of what
I want to do.
That's the first and fourthmessage.
If there's anything I can takeback to my source and why?
Go in the UK and you know, sayAmerica is doing this or certain
states are doing this, what,why don't we consider it?
It's those little things that Ican share and there's quick
hits, but why doesn't that?
My aim and my ambition is towork with Sheffield Hall
(38:33):
University and work withAlbright to spread the learning
and spread my understanding andresearch project and see how we
can sort of develop an adapt onthat, obviously hopefully
working with National BlackPolice Office Association in the
UK, sort of lecturing andspeaking from their point of
view.
I've already been inconversations with Hallam
University seeing if there'sanything we can work with their
(38:53):
students as well.
So they do.
They work quite closely withSouth Yorkshire Police in the
recruitment and the occasionsthat if there's anything I can
do that this opportunity hasactually opened so many more
opportunities that I've got tobe careful of what I say, yes
and no.
So but I'm so passionate aboutit I just want to share.
You know it's one of those sayyes to everything because you
(39:13):
know, you don't know where itwould lead.
But actually, more importantly,I don't know yet what impact I
will leave.
Because, as I said before, isthat legacy?
We need to change the mindsetfor young female officers girls,
ladies, women of colour that,yes, policing is a great career,
policing is a valuable careerand you can make that difference
and you can join it.
You can get higher levels.
(39:33):
That's the most important thingthat I want to leave behind is
the young girl at school thinkoh, what shall I do?
I want to get to play difficult.
They'll see someone whoactually looks like them,
reflect them and take somethingaway.
Yes, there's lecture in thispaper that wants to write.
There's some research I want todo.
There's people I want to workwith.
That's all great.
That's all fantastic.
It's reaching out.
The young women and girls ofcolour, of any ethnicity say we
(39:55):
can do this.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
That's great well, not only your leader, but your
role model, and you want to payforward, which I think is so
amazing.
We have been talking to AnilKhalil Khan.
She is a detective chiefinspector from the South
Yorkshire Police Department.
She is a full right specialist,in essence, on assignments in
the United States, both in theDC area and headed to North
Carolina.
(40:16):
Before you head back, when doyou head back?
I go back to mid-August okay,so how do people get in touch
with you?
Speaker 3 (40:22):
so I've got a LinkedIn profile, anil Khalil
Khan, I've got a Twitter accountand I handle it at Anila KK or,
obviously, my email, which Ican provide a sneak peek.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
That's terrific well, thank you.
Thanks so much for your time,for your energy, safe travels as
you go from Washington later inthe week to North Carolina.
Quite different, I might say,but I think you'll enjoy as much
your time in North Carolina.
So thank you to Anila.
That's another episode of thecop doc podcast.
Stay tuned for more episodes.
Anila, thank you very muchthank you, I appreciate that
(40:54):
stand by for more episodes inthe coming weeks.
We're talking to people fromNorthern Ireland, from Canada
and from the United States aswell as others from the UK have
a good day, stay safe thanks forlistening to the cop doc
podcast with Dr Steve Moriali.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Steve is a retired law enforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from western state
university.
Please tune into the cop docpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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