Season 6 - Episode 128
Unlock the secrets to effective law enforcement leadership in our latest episode where I chat with Dr. Terry Anderson. Gain invaluable insight into the world of police work where emotional and interpersonal skills are as critical as the badge and gun. Dr. Anderson, with his extensive background in both Canada and the U.S., illuminates the often-neglected areas of self-management and team leadership that ripple through the lives of officers and those they protect. With an innovative field guide and book, we delve into the transformative journey of continuous skill development and its profound impact on community safety.
As you listen, discover why every officer is a leader, whether they're directing traffic or commanding a precinct. Our engaging conversation travels through the philosophy of leadership and the role of self-awareness in crafting an effective officer – one who can positively influence their team and community. We discuss the unique online course that equips officers with the tools to self-assess and strengthen twelve key competencies, all designed to enhance decision-making and foster a culture of continuous improvement. Learn how resources like Command College are shaping the future of law enforcement with practical applications that stretch far beyond the uniform.
Wrapping up, we explore how the same leadership skills that serve on duty can transform personal and community interactions. Hear about the success stories, like that of Sheriff Greg Champagne, whose commitment to leadership training has led to remarkable outcomes.
Terry and I touch on the importance of grounding, centering, attending, and observing—core competencies that enable officers to lead with empathy and emotional intelligence. This episode is an eye-opener for anyone interested in the intersection of law enforcement and leadership, proving that the badge of a good officer is crafted through both skill and heart.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Episode Transcript
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Intro - Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopD oc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:32):
Hello again everybody, Steve Morreale coming
to you from Boston and you'relistening to The Cop Doc Podcast
.
Another episode begins and wetalked to Dr Terry Anderson.
This is a strange one becausehe is a snowbird from Canada but
staying in the LA area and aformer professor and very active
in police police training andauthor.
I'll let you introduce yourself, but I want to say hello to you
(00:54):
, Terry.
Terry Anderson (00:54):
Yeah, I'm actually a citizen of two
countries.
Part of the reason of my dualcitizenship is I took a job
teaching at a university for 38years in British Columbia and I
taught self-management,interpersonal communication,
problem-solving, team leadershipand organization and community
development for 38 years in acriminal justice department.
And so I see that there is abig problem on the horizon
(01:17):
that's been there for a long,long time.
It's affected my life and thelives of many maybe most, if not
all, of the officers that I'vegraduated and seen go into their
careers and get promoted, andit's the problem is a lack of
skills training.
Throughout our culture and Ithink back to the family that I
grew up in and that my friendsgrew up in there were probably
(01:38):
less than 20 feeling words thatwere used if you were in the
average household.
Feelings were just notsomething that were talked about
that often.
About 20% of the parents havebasic communication and
problem-solving skills to beable to equip their kids with
those skills.
And it's not their fault, it'snot the fault of managers or
supervisors in the justice andpublic safety system either if
(02:02):
they don't have those skills,because those skills aren't
taught in most schools and mostuniversities or religious
organizations.
So mental and social health hasan impact based on that lack of
skills, competence, that thelack of skills are pandemic but
unconscious.
Steve Morreale (02:19):
Yeah, let me ask you.
I want to set the table.
You are aware right now I'mtalking to you where, Los
Angeles, in Los Angeles area,okay, and you spend half the
time there and the other half inthe British Columbia.
Is that correct?
Yes, okay, how did you getinvolved in criminal justice in
the first place?
Terry Anderson (02:35):
Well, that's a really interesting story.
I originally started working atthe university in the social
services department and I had anopportunity to shift over to
the criminology department andthey wanted me to come because
they saw a need for the kinds ofskills that I was teaching to
social workers to be taught tothe justice and public safety
(02:56):
sector.
And so I just moved my courseover into the crime department
and, with great joy, taught thatcourse, or the series of
courses for the courses, for 38years.
Steve Morreale (03:06):
That's great, and you were up at Fraser Valley
.
The University of the FraserValley I got you Great, great,
and so you have become quiteinvolved with writing,
facilitating, with training,with coaching and the skills of
this competency-based trainingregimen.
But I also seem to know I haveyour book Every Officer is a
Leader, and you are on yourfourth edition, is that right?
(03:29):
The fourth edition was justreleased, right Great, and I
also saw and I have not seen ityet, but you also a field guide,
and so talk about that andwhat's the importance and
relevance of having thecompanion field guide Terry.
Terry Anderson (03:41):
Well, what we found in our decades of training
officers is that they don'tlearn everything just because
they take one course.
They need to go out into thefield and essentially what they
told us is we work on two orthree skills and developing
those in our job and in ourfamilies, about two or three
skills at a time.
We can't learn all 60 skillsjust because we take one course.
(04:03):
So the course is anintroduction and it's a solid
grounding, and the online coursethat we have is a solid
grounding as well in those 60skills.
But during and after the course, people target specific skills
to develop on the job and ifthey have a field training
officer who's been trained inour program, that field training
officer is coaching them inthose specific skills that
(04:25):
they're working on during thatfirst six months of their
employment.
And that's where the realtraining hits the road.
Steve Morreale (04:31):
So, when you've written this and you've written
this not alone, you've got anawful lot of co-authors and
other people who have played arole in the development of this
and the skills, and certainlyyou refine them as a scholar and
a researcher Tell us how youcame to identify the skills.
Terry Anderson (04:48):
Basically, my work with police as a consultant
and a coach started 40 yearsago.
As I started writing this bookright after I did my PhD, I
found certain police leaders whoare also pro academics and they
wanted to participate insummarizing this book and the
knowledge that we had realizedwas effective in the field in
(05:10):
such a way as it could becomeaccessible.
And so in the fourth edition ofthe book, which is written most
of it's written by cops andcoordinated by me and I've
written some of it but those 60skills are articulated and
summarized in the field guide,and so the officer puts it into
the briefcase or into the carand is targeting to practice
(05:32):
specific skills during thatparticular time of working,
whether it's night shift or dayshift focused on developing.
Steve Morreale (05:39):
What you're encouraging is continuous
improvement.
I presume and you're looking atTerry you and I, as educators,
know that we're still learning,isn't that true?
And we don't know what we don'tknow.
Terry Anderson (05:49):
Right and we're still learning how to teach the
skills and we have had theopportunity to build a workshop
with the Department of Justicethat was funded for a period of
two, well, three years becauseof COVID and we validated that
the officers who went throughthis week long workshop were
able to bring those skills intothe field in a practical way so
(06:09):
that they verified the skillsare real, they're effective and
they take the skills home totheir families because they
didn't have those skills before.
Steve Morreale (06:18):
So is this more applied learning?
Terry Anderson (06:19):
It is.
Steve Morreale (06:20):
Okay, that's great.
Let me just look at this, thesecond edition.
I don't know the benefit of themost recent edition, but I want
to get a look at that.
But you talk about skills andpersonal mastery and
interpersonal skills andconflict management.
There are so many, I'm justlooking through them.
Skills of team and organization, development, skills for
(06:40):
problem and opportunitymanagement, versatility, style,
role, skill shifting, applyingethics and transforming your
leadership, coaching, leadership, community safety.
There's just so many.
And obviously you realize, andcertainly I do, as a pro
academic but a formerpractitioner, that it is not one
dimensional.
Policing is not one dimensional, and nor is I understand that
(07:01):
you've been dipping your toeinto fire service too.
Terry Anderson (07:04):
But if it's not one dimensional.
Steve Morreale (07:06):
How are the academies adapting or are they
to this kind of competency basedand skills training?
Terry Anderson (07:12):
Well, the academies are so busy and
understaffed that it's difficultright now, at this time in
history, for them to integrate abrand new program.
So we are seeing some uptake,but the uptake is slower than we
had hoped, not because peopledon't want it, but because they
don't have the dollars or thetime for it and they realize the
need for it.
There's no question about that,because our book is selling and
(07:33):
our course is selling and thecourse that we have out there is
one option is for people tosign up for the version where
they get six units of universitytransfer credit at the
undergraduate and then ouradvanced course is six units at
the graduate level.
So we've been able to 1,700different universities been
accredited by the AmericanAcademy of Education Right, so
(07:55):
that's encouraged people toenroll as well, because a lot of
folks in policing and fire arereally trying to finish their
degree or get an advanced degree.
So these skills we ask people toask themselves certain
questions which skills have youmastered in the big five
leadership skill sets?
Which skills do you want tolearn next?
(08:15):
And what's your leadershipdevelopment plan?
Do you have one?
We can offer you theopportunity to develop a plan
based on specific skillassessments.
You can plan your leadershipdevelopment journey and connect
it to your degree plan or yourgraduation plan that you have
and then use that to plan yourcareer to trajectory.
So some people don't want tohave promotions.
(08:38):
Other people are seeking themactively from the moment they
begin their job.
We have a leadership skillsinventory that is a part of the
book itself in the fourthedition.
That enables them to do aself-assessment of which skills
they have and don't have andcome up with that leadership
development plan.
Steve Morreale (08:54):
You know, as I'm listening to you, one of the
things that strikes me first ofall.
I know when I just finished atraining with Sergeants a few
days ago, and one of the thingsthat a couple of executives have
said to me, and I have begun totout that, is that so many in
policing raise their hand to besworn and they will leave that
job at the same rank.
(09:14):
In other words, so few have anopportunity or have a desire, as
you just said, to be promoted,to be responsible for others,
and so that makes it and, by theway you say, every officer is a
leader.
I'd like to explain that.
How so?
How so, terry?
Terry Anderson (09:27):
The situations that officers find themselves in
require them to haveself-management skills,
interpersonal communicationskills, problem-solving skills
and even team leadership skills.
Even if they're a team member,they still have influence and
they still have impact on theirteam, especially if the team
leader is inclusive, isincluding them in the
decision-making and planningprocess for various
(09:50):
interventions that policingteams might be doing in the
community.
And because of a lack of staff,we're seeing community policing
kind of wane right now becausethere's not a lot of opportunity
to do the kind ofproblem-solving planning that's
required for those kind ofinterventions because of short
staffing.
So if you could pictureyourself, you know test driving
(10:10):
our course.
We're going to be releasing anopportunity for officers and
aspiring officers to test drivethree skills of their choice, to
get an experience of the onlinecourse, just to sample it, to
test drive it.
So these five people skill setsfully equip leaders of all
ranks, sworn professional staffand basically they get an
(10:31):
opportunity to reallyself-examine the extent to which
they have self-managementskills and there are 12 of those
skills.
An opportunity to examine theextent to which they have
interpersonal communication,which includes empathy, training
and coaching of others.
So they really need to know theextent to which they have and
don't have those skills, becausesavvy personnel people are
(10:54):
actually promotingcompetency-based people, people
who have demonstrated thecapability to lead a team.
Then the team leadership forcontinuous improvement.
Once a person gains teamleadership skills, they can
actually run a continuousimprovement team that has an
impact on the entireorganization and the community.
I've tested this with about 40different organizations and it's
(11:15):
worked every time to someextent, until a new chief comes
in and says stop doingcontinuous improvement because
it's not my way of makingdecisions.
This continuous improvementteam is building it as one of
the skills and how to lead acontinuous improvement team for
problem solving and for targetedimpact on community issues.
Steve Morreale (11:34):
So a couple of things come to mind.
As a retired professor, youknow that one of the things that
we have to do is to document aphilosophy of teaching.
Right, you sit down, you thinkabout what do I want to do?
How am I approaching it?
How am I looking at students?
How am I looking at studentlearning?
How am I facilitating in theclassroom?
How am I assessing?
You have to document this.
This causes a need forself-reflection.
(11:55):
What I'm beginning to do and Ispoke to you that I'm working on
a book on leadership recipeswhat are some of the ingredients
of leadership, and so I'vestarted to talk about asking
people to understand what theirphilosophy of leadership is,
which is a takeoff on what wehave to do in order to earn
promotion.
You know that You've had thatexperience right, and there's
also a thing that I work onwhich sounds quite similar.
(12:17):
It's executive corequalifications OPM.
Does it the Office of PersonnelManagement, if you're going to
move into the senior executiveservices and when you look at
those the same approach that youseem to be taking when you're
looking at a list of skills andyou're doing a self-assessment
and you're saying I feel like Ihave these skills or I need work
(12:38):
on these skills.
So it's the same sort of thing.
I think it's important.
But let's explore that a littlebit.
Self-awareness is very, veryimportant as somebody who wants
to move through the organizationinto the organization, no
longer be responsible only forthe street, but for others who
are entrusted to them.
What steps should they betaking?
What thoughts should be goingthrough their mind?
(12:58):
What sort of reflection shouldbe going on to say how can I be
a better leader?
Where are my weaknesses, whereare my strengths?
Talk about that.
Terry Anderson (13:06):
Well, it's difficult for them to assess
because most of the trainingthey would have had would have
been theory-based and notcompetency-based.
So they don't know what skillsthey haven't don't have yet.
And that's what our programoffers is that it helps officers
to identify and verify theextent to which they actually
have skills.
When we did the Department ofJustice training, we had six
(13:29):
days of training in a row.
The first two days were withexecutives, the second two days
were with trainers and the thirdtwo days were with frontline
staffs where we were watchingthe trainers deliver the program
.
And then we certified thetrainers so they can go back
into their agency and deliverthe program with free manuals
from the Department of Justicethat we designed and have been
(13:51):
certified by 35 posts across theUnited States and certified by
the Department of Justice.
And people don't know about it.
That's partly why I'm heretalking about it as the chief
leadership officer of CommandCollege.
People, if they want moreinformation, can go to
commandcollegeorg and reallytake a scan and take a look at
particularly the Magnus programthat is now turned into an app
(14:16):
so they can access skills andpractice sessions on their phone
while they're having a break ontheir job or while they're
engaged in a training programwhere they can focus on
developing how to do aparticular leadership
intervention rather thanunderstand it.
So that's the distinctivefeature of our program is that
we want to help people learn howto do leadership.
Steve Morreale (14:36):
Learn by doing right.
Terry Anderson (14:38):
Think about leadership and the leadership
theories.
So translating theories intoaction has been our primary goal
throughout the entire historyof basically 35, 40 years now.
Steve Morreale (14:48):
Well, that's interesting because certainly
talking off a lot on the podcastabout translating the dense
material that comes out of somany scientific and social
science research that is sodifficult to read and understand
for the lined officer and itsounds like that's what you're
doing You're distilling it intobite-size, understandable pieces
(15:10):
.
Terry Anderson (15:10):
Right, and I'm not doing it alone.
I'm doing it with a team ofcops who've been in the field as
leaders and in the front linefor 20 and 30 years.
Yeah, that's terrific.
I had to have them, otherwise Icouldn't really take the work
that I did in my PhD onleadership.
I couldn't take that work andtranslate it into actionable
leadership behaviors for police.
Steve Morreale (15:31):
What sort of approaches are you taking to
identifying, or to haveidentified, these skills and
building upon them andcontinually growing them and
changing them and gettingfeedback from people who have
tried them?
And it's true, how do youcapture that?
Terry Anderson (15:47):
Well, we know the skills have validity from
the fields of social work andcounseling and those are the
basic foundational skills ofself-management and
interpersonal communication andproblem solving.
That literature is solid andthe training is solid and it's
competency-based.
And if you get a master'sdegree in social worker
counseling, you have to performa video assessment that
(16:09):
demonstrates you actually havethe capability to facilitate
someone through aproblem-solving sequence and you
have the skills to do that.
Otherwise you don't graduate.
That's the way we ran ourprogram at the University of the
Fraser Valley is we had a videoassessment at the end of each
course and then they had to goout into the field with one of
our graduates and spend 480hours in the field in an agency
(16:33):
demonstrating they had thoseskills and they had to pass
their field practice or theydidn't get a degree.
Steve Morreale (16:39):
The field practical that you see in school
counseling and in social work,some of the things that you're
talking about.
That's very fascinating to mebecause the counseling aspect
that I know you do an awful lotof coaching.
The counseling aspect is prettyimportant and yet police
officers do counseling withoutthe certification in many cases.
Terry Anderson (17:00):
Right.
They're faced with situationsthat they aren't really fully
equipped to deal with and thatcauses them to have a terrible
amount of stress.
I mean, they see so muchnegativity, more than most
people see in the first twoyears of their adult life.
Cops see a whole lifetime intwo years, a lifetime of stress
and a lifetime of tragedy in twoyears, and then the years are
(17:22):
packed with the small microtraumas that can end up causing
them to be traumatized in thelong run.
Steve Morreale (17:28):
Well, we're talking to Terry Anderson and he
is in Los Angeles today.
He is retired from a life ofeducation at the university
level and now as the chiefleadership officer at Command
College.
Where is the Command College?
Terry Anderson (17:42):
It's in Raleigh, north Carolina, and it was
started about 12 years ago by DrMitch Javidi, who has developed
the organization and hasattracted the key leaders in the
United States and Canada to beon the board and to be as their
advisors and to be faculty toteach various courses that we
(18:02):
offer to the justice and publicsafety system, including now
fire and rescue.
We just finished the firstedition of the fire and rescue
book, which is Every Fire andRescue Professional is a Leader.
It's based upon the policeedition and the fire people are
telling us thank you so muchbecause there isn't anything out
there like this that we've seenand they're actually being able
(18:24):
to use it right away.
Steve Morreale (18:25):
Yeah, we talked about that as we prepared for
this, and I think that's afascinating and an underserved
population, so I'm glad you'reable to do that.
Terry, take me into a morecurrent class, where you're
talking to a group of people,whether online or in person.
How do you set the stage?
How do you set the table?
(18:46):
Tell me what's in it for me,tell me why I should be here.
Tell me why I should listen.
Terry Anderson (18:51):
Well, I guess the most relevant thing to
everybody who comes into myclass is their own personal life
, and so we start with that.
We just say look, all theskills you can learn here are
applicable to your personal lifeas well as to your career.
You're going to take theseskills home, and we actually ask
people to practice the skillsat home first and practice the
skills in their community groupsand practice their skills then
(19:13):
at work, so they have anopportunity to verify and get
feedback and feed forward frompeople they're working with.
We invite people who take ourcourse to coach someone on their
team and then to get them takenthe course so they co-coach one
another.
So that's a really powerful wayto extend the learning from the
classroom into the field, andwe're seeing that just happen
(19:35):
spontaneously, so it's not ahard sell.
People are hungry to know howto do leadership behaviors and
how to practice them so theybecome proficient and skilled.
They become unconsciouslycompetent.
Steve Morreale (19:49):
Right.
I remember many years ago goingto a training and I was the
only law enforcement officer inthat training.
It happened to be inPhiladelphia, it was called
train the trainer, and one ofthe things that struck me and
it's exactly what I'm hearingyou say tell me what's in it for
me.
And that sounds like you'resaying exactly right, let me
talk about your lived experience.
Let's talk about some of theimpediments to learning, some of
(20:09):
the impediments, some of theshortcomings that you may find
yourself, that you really don'twant to talk about, but that
could be valuable, both what I'mhearing you say, both to you at
work and you at home.
So that's pretty fascinating.
Go ahead.
Terry Anderson (20:22):
Officers have told us that it's so important
that they get that at thebeginning of learning a skill
that we have now put it at thefront end of every skill.
What's in it for you to learnthis skill?
All 60 skills have that rightat the front end, both in the
book and the field guide.
Steve Morreale (20:37):
Yeah, good, so that's good, so you're getting
it, you're getting it.
I'm not trying to say you don't, but I can see the value of
that.
Go ahead.
Terry Anderson (20:43):
It's coming back to us that that causes them to
want to dig into it deeper andlearn more, and learn faster,
yeah.
Steve Morreale (20:50):
I mean you got to get buy in and you got to
make it count for them, which isgood, and hopefully, with all
of the noise that's been goingon with policing, you know, as
this continues, I think it couldbe very valuable.
Terry, I know that you're veryfamiliar with what goes on up in
our northern for me, ournorthern neighbor, canada, and
I've also spent some time inEurope and I know we talked a
(21:11):
little bit about that beforehand.
What strikes me is that whenI've been working with the guard
and even with police agenciesin the UK, that they do things a
bit different.
It's problem based learning.
It requires them to come backfrom the field after some
experience, much like you saidthat social workers will do that
learn, apply and come back andassess and reflect.
(21:32):
And that happens.
It doesn't happen in the UnitedStates.
How do we try to encouragereflection on?
Okay, everybody, you were outthere, you tried it, what worked
and what didn't, what would youdo differently?
Terry Anderson (21:44):
Well, it is happening in some places, and
I'm thinking of Sheriff CraigChampagne, for example, who is
now the president of theNational Sheriff's Association.
He ran our program with all ofhis staffs, born and civilian,
for a period of five years.
He kept tracking the outcomesand he actually made a two
minute video to summarize whatthe impact of our program was,
(22:08):
after all of his staff took itfor five years.
Steve Morreale (22:11):
Well, let's see if it works.
If it doesn't work, I'll justput a link on it, but give it a
try.
So we're back with TerryAnderson, dr Terry Anderson, in
Los Angeles.
I'm Steve Moriali here inBoston and we've been talking
about every officer, a leader inthe work that he in command
college are doing to try toexpand the idea of skills-based
learning and competency-basedlearning.
And there is a sheriff inLouisiana, greg Champagne, who
(22:34):
has courted.
I will try to include it and,if not, leave a link in it.
But in short order, what's yourtake on what the sheriff said?
Terry Anderson (22:42):
Well, basically, that leadership skills training
results in internal and publiclegitimacy and credibility.
That it reduced liabilities,reduced lawsuits, payouts,
created a better place to workfor people retire healthily and
happily compared to the way itwas before the course.
Create a better place to workthat attracts new hires.
(23:03):
They have people wanting towork for them because the
reputation is hey, this is thebest place to work.
Engage in continuousimprovement, teaming that
collaboratively crafts andexecutes strategy that gets
results with confidence, bothinside of the organization and
in the community, and then gaina higher level of respect and
trust from the community.
(23:24):
So those are the outcomes thathe measured continuously for
five years.
He's not the only one.
He's the only one who happensto be the president of the
National Sheriffs Associationwho make the video.
Steve Morreale (23:35):
So you don't seem to be a guy who likes to
rest on his laurels.
What's going on now that thisbook is done?
How are you continuing to becurious and explore and help
public safety?
Terry Anderson (23:47):
Well, in Canada they have adopted our course and
Canadianized the course withsome of their own videos I'm
laughing at Canadianized.
Steve Morreale (23:56):
I didn't know there was such a term, Terry.
Terry Anderson (23:59):
Yeah, they Canadianized the course that we
developed, essentially on 360videos at one of the largest
police departments in Californiaand I can't mention any police
agency's names just becausewithout their permission they
don't want me to, but I can tellyou it's one of the very
largest police agencies that thedeputy chief, I met him and I
(24:20):
was on a committee with him,interoperability committee
between the sheriff's departmentand a police department and
fire departments.
He read our book finally, afterI sat on this committee for a
year and he said we have to dothis at our agency.
And so he said I have avideography team and I have a
group of 30 handpicked people.
Let's shoot all the videos foreach of the skills.
(24:42):
So for every one of the skillswe shot an introduction to the
skill and why it's important toyou and relevant to you.
A second video was ademonstration or a story about
how the skill is needed and howit's been used in the past.
And the third video is actuallymodeling of the skill
performance.
So people can see how the skillworks in real time, talking
(25:03):
with a real officer with a realproblem, and they can see how
the problem solving systemactually can be achieved and can
be enjoyed.
Steve Morreale (25:12):
That's terrific.
So what's next on your list ofthings?
Terry Anderson (25:15):
Well, we're looking at moving this into
smaller units of training on theMagnus Works app that we've
just developed.
So if anybody goes tocommandcollegeorg, they can
download the Magnus Works appand their whole agency can
download the app, and if theywant to get data about officer
morale, officer performance,officer mental health, the
(25:39):
organization can sign up andthey can get organization-wide
data about these issues andabout leadership competence,
which is coming next.
That's what we're adding to themix, and so this Magnus Works
is a way for officers to enhancetheir mental health and their
resilience, while they also pickup skills that they need to
(25:59):
function more effectively, notonly at home, but on the job.
So it's really a life skillstraining program for leaders.
Steve Morreale (26:10):
That's great.
So how do people reach you?
Terry Anderson (26:17):
They typically go to my consultingcoachcom
website and I have a series ofeight different coaching
packages that they can take alook at.
They can self assess which onethey might be relevant to them,
and I spend a few days a weekcoaching people who really are
(26:38):
motivated.
You say are motivated.
They are motivated Becausethey've already kind of looked
into it and they've alreadybought into it and they want to
accelerate their leadershipdevelopment and their
promotability.
Usually that's one of the majorthings that I end up doing is
promotional coaching or careerplanning, career path planning.
(26:58):
That's how basically they findout about me through the
International Academy of PublicSafety's Command College, then
contact me and I'm alsocertified by the state of
California to do the executiveteam building workshop.
So I've been doing several ofthose a year with various
sheriff's departments and policeagencies in the state of
California.
Steve Morreale (27:18):
What do you want your legacy to be, Terry
Anderson?
Terry Anderson (27:21):
That my vision that I had sitting by the creek
at Chico State in 1967 wouldbecome a reality, and that's
that leaders would becomecapable of developing other
leaders for enhanced publicsafety.
That's it in a nutshell Leaderswould become more capable of
developing other leaders so thatenhanced public safety happens.
(27:41):
And it's all about leadership,competence and the confidence
that you have when you knowyou're competent.
That's really, really freeingand really important, and it
causes the team to trust you.
It causes them to get excited,particularly since you know how
to do collaborative decisionmaking and problem solving
instead of command and controldecision making.
(28:02):
Everybody on the teamappreciates being included and
having their intelligence bewoven into the fabric of a
solution to a community problemor to an organizational problem,
of course.
Steve Morreale (28:15):
Of course.
I mean I think in a lot of wayspolice officers do not.
I mean they feel they'reoverworked.
I understand that, butsometimes they don't feel
appreciated even by their ownagency, because decisions very
much are made in a vacuum andthey do not engage people.
(28:36):
And yet we hire people fortheir intellect and we tell them
to do what they're told.
You know, just react to that.
Terry Anderson (28:44):
Well, what we found is that the average chief
who comes in and applies to bechief does not have these skills
.
It's actually one in 10, maybehas many of the skills.
But the board who's selectingthe chief doesn't know how to
determine whether or not theseapplicants have leadership
(29:06):
skills.
They know how to determine whattheir degrees are, what their
past experience is, and evenpersonnel head hunting agencies
don't know how to assess theextent to which applicants for
police chief or leadershippositions have competence.
They don't know how to do it,and it's not their fault, it's
nobody's fault.
It's that our educationalsystem could teach people these
(29:31):
skills from elementary schoolthrough high school and
everybody could have the skills.
But it's not part of ourcurriculum anywhere that we know
of in the world.
Steve Morreale (29:40):
No, it's not so.
And which troubling me too, andI know you as a student and
scholar of leadership.
So many people misunderstandthe distinct and the subtle
differences between managementand leadership.
Terry Anderson (29:57):
Yes, and they believe typically, unless
they've had a competency-basedleadership course, they believe
that the better managers theyare, more they're likely to get
recognized, appreciated andpromoted, and so they try to
manage their way to the top, andunfortunately, that works two
(30:19):
thirds of the time.
Yeah, you understand.
And so what we have are andparticularly as the organization
becomes larger, we haveincreasing ivory towers
manifesting, where thecommunication links between
those people at the top andthose people in the middle and
the people on the front istypically lacking and
(30:41):
sorrowfully lacking.
Steve Morreale (30:43):
Wow, I'm gonna stop from it.
I'm gonna take a quick breakand I'm gonna keep talking,
because I wanna talk aboutlistening, communicating those
skills which are very important,so I'll be right back, okay.
Terry Anderson (30:54):
Wow, hmm, mmhm.
Steve Morreale (31:53):
Okay, I'll leave .
Thank you, I'll leave a anothergap just before we get started.
I'll introduce you again andI'll ask some of those questions
.
Okay, anything else you want tocover before I continue?
I?
Terry Anderson (32:06):
think we're good .
Okay, great, thank you Okay.
Steve Morreale (32:15):
So we continue with our chat with Terry
Anderson.
Dr Terry Anderson, and he isthe author of Every Officer is a
Leader and the field guide thatgoes along with it.
Terry, we've been talking aboutskills.
We just talked about managementversus leadership, and I'd like
(32:37):
you to take the listeners downa rough list.
You can't go through all 60skills, but in your mind, what
are the basic elements andskills needed for leadership?
Name four or five importantones.
Terry Anderson (32:56):
Well, grounding is the most fundamental skill
and that means the capacity tohave enough internal
self-control to stay in thepresent and to stay focused.
If I'm asked to stand watchsomewhere anywhere in the system
, if I'm asked to stand watch, Ihave to have the capacity of
inner self-control.
I have to be grounded enough tomaintain a focus.
(33:19):
And that takes muscle, mentalmuscle development.
And I just got certified inpositive intelligence, which is
a coach training program.
Steve Morreale (33:28):
Did you not have it before this?
Terry Anderson (33:31):
No, I didn't.
I was good, but I didn't knowhow to execute it at command.
I understood Possible.
Intelligence course gave memore mental muscle than what I
had, and I'm able now to passthat muscle development along to
other people who decide to takethe course.
Steve Morreale (33:48):
Great, what else besides grounding?
We talked a little bit.
I was wondering about listeningand communication skills and
coaching skills.
Terry Anderson (33:58):
There are 12 self-management skills and 12
interpersonal communication andproblem-solving skills.
Gotcha Good.
So we start out with groundingand then centering, which means
I understand my values, mybeliefs and how that affects my
job.
So I'm in touch and clear aboutwhere I stand, with my beliefs
(34:21):
and assumptions about the natureof people, about the nature of
life, about my belief system.
I have some clarity and I havethe foundation of my inner life
established.
That gives me a perspective onwhere I stand in the use of
force.
If I believe that people aren'tworth anything, I'm not going
(34:46):
to hesitate when it comes timeto make a decision about pulling
a trigger, unless I'mself-protecting myself from risk
.
So there's grounding, there'scentering, there's attending,
giving undivided attention,which means leaning towards
(35:06):
someone, facing them, squaringyour shoulders, giving eye
contact without staring in orderto receive information from
them.
That's most of its nonverbal,and so that knowledge about how
to turn and face someone andlean into the relationship is a
mechanical skill.
(35:27):
Almost it's just like pullingthe bow back on the arrow and
getting enough strength andstability to hit the target.
And so focusing, using theattending and the observing
skills, and particularly thesuspending skill, is the most
difficult one to develop,because what are we suspending?
(35:48):
If we're suspending using thatskill, is we're suspending
judgment, emotions and prematureadvice.
So the judge comes alongwhenever we're running into a
stress situation and it judgeshow we're reacting, how we're
evaluating that situation as toits threat.
(36:12):
And if we're caught up and stuckin the judge mode, then we also
start reacting from the leftside of the brain.
And that reactivity is whatcauses a lot of officers to get
into trouble because they're notbasing what they're doing on
what's really happening in frontof them.
(36:33):
And experienced officers knowhow to do this very well.
They're grounded, they'recentered, they attend, they
observe, they listeninteractively and they check for
what other people mean by whatthey say.
And then they even go intounderstanding some people's
feelings by having a feelingword list developed in their
(36:56):
vocabulary.
The average person only hasabout 20 words feeling words
that they use in their families,with their friends.
But the more precise thefeeling word is, the more
accurate the understanding isthan the more.
That encourages two waycommunication and then problem
solving.
Steve Morreale (37:14):
Is this a little similar, and I don't mean to
label it, but a bit of emotionalintelligence.
Terry Anderson (37:24):
These are the skills that enable emotional
intelligence to manage.
Steve Morreale (37:28):
Yeah, exactly, I didn't mean to cut you off like
that, but you know I'm hearingexactly what you're saying, but
I'm so.
So this is like peeling backthe onion to see what leads to
understanding your emotionalintelligence and other people
reading other people, that kindof stuff.
So that's fascinating to me.
Terry Anderson (37:47):
It really is, and it's not only fascinating
conceptually, but it is afreeing, a release to be able to
acquire these skills andpractice them.
And most people who have takenmy courses over 8,000 people
have gone through my coursesthey come back to class every
(38:09):
week and they say, wow, I justpracticed this at home.
I didn't take it back to workyet, but or some people do.
But they say I need theseskills at home.
I can't believe I haven't had.
How have I made it this farwithout these skills, literally.
So I've had people come backand say I was able to rescue a
(38:29):
marriage that was going sideways.
I was able to establish two-waycommunication with my teenager
that I wasn't able to establishbefore, and I'm a more
understanding, more patient,more kind person who's more
likely to interveneappropriately instead of giving
premature advice or pulling thetrigger too soon.
Steve Morreale (38:54):
Interesting.
I hear sometimes in my own frommy own spouse that I really
didn't want you to solve myproblem.
I just wanted you to listen andthat you understand what I'm
saying and sometimes that weneed to understand that I've
learned the hard way.
Sometimes they say because copshave a tendency to want to
(39:16):
solve problems and move on tothe next problem instead of just
listening.
Terry Anderson (39:20):
It's not their fault and they are pressured for
time, terribly pressured fortime, so I give them a lot of
grace and I've been on 1400hours of ride-alongs with them,
so I understand what the streetlooks like.
I've seen some things I wish Ihadn't seen and, just like they
do, so I know the skills.
(39:41):
Work on the street with someonewho is afraid of cops.
All the cop has to do isobserve them and respond with
understanding to the state thatthey're in, and then two-way
communication starts.
Steve Morreale (39:58):
No question, I do an awful lot of work and have
been assisting some agenciesbased on the work of co-response
, and so you would understandthat it's a clinician in the
police vehicle with, and veryoften, if the police officer can
begin to trust that clinicianand allow them to do their thing
(40:21):
on the scene, as soon as thingshave settled and there's no
threat, what you begin to see isthe police officer very often
learns from the approach of theclinician, the social worker, on
how to de-escalate a situation,how to address somebody who is
(40:42):
in a state of difficulty, evenby just saying not I'm Officer
Morielli, but I'm Steve and I'mhere because you seem to be.
So I'm seeing a shake your head.
Terry Anderson (40:54):
I have the benefit of watching you, but
clearly you understand that Wellan officer's understand it too,
and when they have theopportunity to go through the
training they say that when theygo back on shift their
perspective has changed to oneof assessment first and then
(41:16):
intervention.
So they do a more luxurious,thorough assessment of what's
going on in front of them beforethey react.
Steve Morreale (41:25):
They're slowing things down to take two so they
can assess and understand.
Terry Anderson (41:29):
It's also more time for assessment, more time
for two-way communication tohappen, and that gives them far
more information about what'sgoing to be appropriate that
they might do next.
Great, that's great.
So in the agencies that havethe two person social worker and
cop going out to the domesticdispute situation, the officers
(41:55):
who have that social worker withthem are actually getting
training and those skills.
Steve Morreale (42:01):
I understand they're watching it.
They're watching what works andwhat didn't.
I, as we went down, I'll tellyou a story about a colleague of
mine who started doing this inMassachusetts 25, 30 years ago
and, forced upon a sergeant hedidn't like it at first watches
her act, watches her calm thingsdown, has to handle a situation
(42:24):
because it may be moredangerous than most, and so she
has to stay back and she listens.
And afterwards he comes backand she says to him Greg, I
can't believe the way youhandled it.
And he said what do you mean?
And she said you sounded likeyou were with me.
(42:44):
And he said what the F?
Don't you think I'm listeningto you so clearly?
He's learning, right, I'm justan amazing transformation.
Terry Anderson (42:54):
Right, and the cops who've gone out with the
social workers have come andthey've taken our course, have
told me that their colleagueswant to take our course because
they want the skills that thatofficer has because he just got
promoted or he's the leader of ateam now and it's skill envy.
Steve Morreale (43:19):
I love that skill envy.
Terry Anderson (43:22):
The ideal training scenario, in my
personal opinion, is thatofficers would get exposed to
all the skills and introduce tothem and start practicing them
during recruit training.
Then their field trainingofficer for six months would
have already been trained andthe field training officer, in
responding to calls and goingthrough those motions, would be
(43:43):
solidifying those skills andverifying that that officer is
ready to go on the street ontheir own.
But without those skillsthey're just jumping into a pool
of confusion and complexitythat's actually difficult for
anybody to manage and with theskills it's easier because you
have a rudder, you have somesense of what you could do next.
(44:03):
That could make a positivedifference.
Steve Morreale (44:06):
We've got to wind down, terri, but I have a
couple of questions for you.
We're talking to Terri Anderson, dr Terri Anderson.
He is sitting in Los Angelestoday and we're here in Boston.
I'm sure that your weather ismuch better than our weather
here.
But what are you reading, asbusy as you are writing and all
this stuff, what do you do tocontinually learn and understand
(44:26):
and grow your ideas and growyour concepts?
What do you read?
Magazines, books.
Terry Anderson (44:33):
I read books, I listen to podcasts and I think
probably the work that I do inresearching what I'm going to
write next is probably where Ido the most learning.
What I'm writing next is myautobiography.
I had my son pass two monthsago, oh, so sorry.
So I'm dealing with grief andprocessing grief and
(44:53):
understanding grief like I'venever understood it before.
My parents passed, you know, adecade ago, and I knew they were
going and I was doing prettywell with that, but this was
totally unexpected.
He just didn't wake up onemorning and we don't know why.
I'm trying to learn about grief,how to process grief and how.
That's related to PTSD, becauseI have PTSD.
(45:16):
I have been traumatized by thesix months delay that the
Sheriff's Department has in thecoroner's office to be able to
do a toxicology report.
That's really frustrating forme because I don't know why my
son died and it's sorrowful.
So I'm studying grief and theprocessing of grief and I'm
learning better how to grief andI think this is what everybody
(45:38):
goes through when they see atragic incident and all the cops
I know and all the rightalongside Ben on they have to
process a certain amount ofgrief, sometimes after every
shift when they see a lot ofstuff happen.
I understand, and so I'mlooking at positive intelligence
in this program as a way tohelp people process this really
quickly, and I'm getting betterat it.
Steve Morreale (45:59):
So you're using your own pain to try to
understand it and then to usethat to help others.
That's what it sounds likeAbsolutely Good for you.
I'm so sorry about your loss.
One more question, though.
I'm going to throw a curveballat you If you had a chance to
sit down with anybody who haspassed, who has written or has
inspired you about their work, apublic figure who might?
Terry Anderson (46:20):
that be.
I would like to spend some timewith Gerard Egan, who said on
my PhD committee.
He's not passed yet.
As far as I know, I think he'sstill alive, but he's one person
that just comes to mind rightnow.
He was the head of the CORDprogram, the Community and
Organization Development Program, at Loyola University.
I didn't attend there, but hewas on my committee as a chair
my PhD committee so I studiedunder him and learned everything
(46:44):
and taught using his textbookcalled the Skilled Helper for 25
years.
He's kind of my conceptual hero, as well as Dr Alan Ivy, who
also sat on my PhD committee andhe was at the University of
Massachusetts before he retired.
So these are kind of the livingheroes.
I guess if I could study withanybody who's passed, I'd like
to spend some time with Gandhi.
(47:04):
I'd like to learn how he wasable to maintain grounding and
centering and composure andpeace in the midst of conflict
and chaos and promote that toothers.
I think that's a pretty coolachievement.
Steve Morreale (47:18):
Yeah, well, thank you.
Thank you very much.
I wish you good luck in yourwork in the future.
I hope that listeners havegained much from what you have
talked about, what you have done.
We've been talking with DrTerry Anderson and he wrote
Every Officer is a Leader.
He's on his fourth version ofthat book with others, and also
that comes along with a fieldguide that you may find valuable
(47:42):
.
So, terry, you have the lastword.
What do you say to policeofficers who have a difficult
job, but how to work towardsimproving their abilities and
their capabilities?
Terry Anderson (47:52):
Well, I guess, first of all, my colleagues and
I deeply care, and most of thepeople who worked with me on
writing the fourth edition ofthe book are cops or retired
cops, and I think as you readthe book you're going to find
there's a heart for you.
I have a heart for you andthat's why I do all this.
I could retire easily right nowand not do anything, but it
just wouldn't be part of my lineof purpose.
Steve Morreale (48:14):
That's great.
It's a great purpose, isn't it?
Yes, thank you Enjoy.
Enjoy your time in yoursnowbird location, and when will
you head back up north?
Terry Anderson (48:22):
Every six months , so next April we go back.
Steve Morreale (48:26):
That's great.
Terry Anderson (48:27):
And we just go back and forth.
We're dual citizens and enablesus to have that freedom
Terrific.
Steve Morreale (48:31):
Thanks so much for spending the time.
I really do appreciate it.
This is Steve Morielli, andyou've been listening to the Cop
Doc podcast, so that is anotherepisode on the books.
Terry, thank you so much.
Terry Anderson (48:42):
Appreciate how you did this.
It's wonderful.
Intro - Outro (48:46):
Thanks for listening to The Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The Cop DocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopD oc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:32):
Hello again everybody, Steve Morreale coming
to you from Boston and you'relistening to The Cop Doc Podcast
.
Another episode begins and wetalked to Dr Terry Anderson.
This is a strange one becausehe is a snowbird from Canada but
staying in the LA area and aformer professor and very active
in police police training andauthor.
I'll let you introduce yourself, but I want to say hello to you
(00:54):
, Terry.
Terry Anderson (00:54):
Yeah, I'm actually a citizen of two
countries.
Part of the reason of my dualcitizenship is I took a job
teaching at a university for 38years in British Columbia and I
taught self-management,interpersonal communication,
problem-solving, team leadershipand organization and community
development for 38 years in acriminal justice department.
And so I see that there is abig problem on the horizon
(01:17):
that's been there for a long,long time.
It's affected my life and thelives of many maybe most, if not
all, of the officers that I'vegraduated and seen go into their
careers and get promoted, andit's the problem is a lack of
skills training.
Throughout our culture and Ithink back to the family that I
grew up in and that my friendsgrew up in there were probably
(01:38):
less than 20 feeling words thatwere used if you were in the
average household.
Feelings were just notsomething that were talked about
that often.
About 20% of the parents havebasic communication and
problem-solving skills to beable to equip their kids with
those skills.
And it's not their fault, it'snot the fault of managers or
supervisors in the justice andpublic safety system either if
(02:02):
they don't have those skills,because those skills aren't
taught in most schools and mostuniversities or religious
organizations.
So mental and social health hasan impact based on that lack of
skills, competence, that thelack of skills are pandemic but
unconscious.
Steve Morreale (02:19):
Yeah, let me ask you.
I want to set the table.
You are aware right now I'mtalking to you where, Los
Angeles, in Los Angeles area,okay, and you spend half the
time there and the other half inthe British Columbia.
Is that correct?
Yes, okay, how did you getinvolved in criminal justice in
the first place?
Terry Anderson (02:35):
Well, that's a really interesting story.
I originally started working atthe university in the social
services department and I had anopportunity to shift over to
the criminology department andthey wanted me to come because
they saw a need for the kinds ofskills that I was teaching to
social workers to be taught tothe justice and public safety
(02:56):
sector.
And so I just moved my courseover into the crime department
and, with great joy, taught thatcourse, or the series of
courses for the courses, for 38years.
Steve Morreale (03:06):
That's great, and you were up at Fraser Valley
.
The University of the FraserValley I got you Great, great,
and so you have become quiteinvolved with writing,
facilitating, with training,with coaching and the skills of
this competency-based trainingregimen.
But I also seem to know I haveyour book Every Officer is a
Leader, and you are on yourfourth edition, is that right?
(03:29):
The fourth edition was justreleased, right Great, and I
also saw and I have not seen ityet, but you also a field guide,
and so talk about that andwhat's the importance and
relevance of having thecompanion field guide Terry.
Terry Anderson (03:41):
Well, what we found in our decades of training
officers is that they don'tlearn everything just because
they take one course.
They need to go out into thefield and essentially what they
told us is we work on two orthree skills and developing
those in our job and in ourfamilies, about two or three
skills at a time.
We can't learn all 60 skillsjust because we take one course.
(04:03):
So the course is anintroduction and it's a solid
grounding, and the online coursethat we have is a solid
grounding as well in those 60skills.
But during and after the course, people target specific skills
to develop on the job and ifthey have a field training
officer who's been trained inour program, that field training
officer is coaching them inthose specific skills that
(04:25):
they're working on during thatfirst six months of their
employment.
And that's where the realtraining hits the road.
Steve Morreale (04:31):
So, when you've written this and you've written
this not alone, you've got anawful lot of co-authors and
other people who have played arole in the development of this
and the skills, and certainlyyou refine them as a scholar and
a researcher Tell us how youcame to identify the skills.
Terry Anderson (04:48):
Basically, my work with police as a consultant
and a coach started 40 yearsago.
As I started writing this bookright after I did my PhD, I
found certain police leaders whoare also pro academics and they
wanted to participate insummarizing this book and the
knowledge that we had realizedwas effective in the field in
(05:10):
such a way as it could becomeaccessible.
And so in the fourth edition ofthe book, which is written most
of it's written by cops andcoordinated by me and I've
written some of it but those 60skills are articulated and
summarized in the field guide,and so the officer puts it into
the briefcase or into the carand is targeting to practice
(05:32):
specific skills during thatparticular time of working,
whether it's night shift or dayshift focused on developing.
Steve Morreale (05:39):
What you're encouraging is continuous
improvement.
I presume and you're looking atTerry you and I, as educators,
know that we're still learning,isn't that true?
And we don't know what we don'tknow.
Terry Anderson (05:49):
Right and we're still learning how to teach the
skills and we have had theopportunity to build a workshop
with the Department of Justicethat was funded for a period of
two, well, three years becauseof COVID and we validated that
the officers who went throughthis week long workshop were
able to bring those skills intothe field in a practical way so
(06:09):
that they verified the skillsare real, they're effective and
they take the skills home totheir families because they
didn't have those skills before.
Steve Morreale (06:18):
So is this more applied learning?
Terry Anderson (06:19):
It is.
Steve Morreale (06:20):
Okay, that's great.
Let me just look at this, thesecond edition.
I don't know the benefit of themost recent edition, but I want
to get a look at that.
But you talk about skills andpersonal mastery and
interpersonal skills andconflict management.
There are so many, I'm justlooking through them.
Skills of team and organization, development, skills for
(06:40):
problem and opportunitymanagement, versatility, style,
role, skill shifting, applyingethics and transforming your
leadership, coaching, leadership, community safety.
There's just so many.
And obviously you realize, andcertainly I do, as a pro
academic but a formerpractitioner, that it is not one
dimensional.
Policing is not one dimensional, and nor is I understand that
(07:01):
you've been dipping your toeinto fire service too.
Terry Anderson (07:04):
But if it's not one dimensional.
Steve Morreale (07:06):
How are the academies adapting or are they
to this kind of competency basedand skills training?
Terry Anderson (07:12):
Well, the academies are so busy and
understaffed that it's difficultright now, at this time in
history, for them to integrate abrand new program.
So we are seeing some uptake,but the uptake is slower than we
had hoped, not because peopledon't want it, but because they
don't have the dollars or thetime for it and they realize the
need for it.
There's no question about that,because our book is selling and
(07:33):
our course is selling and thecourse that we have out there is
one option is for people tosign up for the version where
they get six units of universitytransfer credit at the
undergraduate and then ouradvanced course is six units at
the graduate level.
So we've been able to 1,700different universities been
accredited by the AmericanAcademy of Education Right, so
(07:55):
that's encouraged people toenroll as well, because a lot of
folks in policing and fire arereally trying to finish their
degree or get an advanced degree.
So these skills we ask people toask themselves certain
questions which skills have youmastered in the big five
leadership skill sets?
Which skills do you want tolearn next?
(08:15):
And what's your leadershipdevelopment plan?
Do you have one?
We can offer you theopportunity to develop a plan
based on specific skillassessments.
You can plan your leadershipdevelopment journey and connect
it to your degree plan or yourgraduation plan that you have
and then use that to plan yourcareer to trajectory.
So some people don't want tohave promotions.
(08:38):
Other people are seeking themactively from the moment they
begin their job.
We have a leadership skillsinventory that is a part of the
book itself in the fourthedition.
That enables them to do aself-assessment of which skills
they have and don't have andcome up with that leadership
development plan.
Steve Morreale (08:54):
You know, as I'm listening to you, one of the
things that strikes me first ofall.
I know when I just finished atraining with Sergeants a few
days ago, and one of the thingsthat a couple of executives have
said to me, and I have begun totout that, is that so many in
policing raise their hand to besworn and they will leave that
job at the same rank.
(09:14):
In other words, so few have anopportunity or have a desire, as
you just said, to be promoted,to be responsible for others,
and so that makes it and, by theway you say, every officer is a
leader.
I'd like to explain that.
How so?
How so, terry?
Terry Anderson (09:27):
The situations that officers find themselves in
require them to haveself-management skills,
interpersonal communicationskills, problem-solving skills
and even team leadership skills.
Even if they're a team member,they still have influence and
they still have impact on theirteam, especially if the team
leader is inclusive, isincluding them in the
decision-making and planningprocess for various
(09:50):
interventions that policingteams might be doing in the
community.
And because of a lack of staff,we're seeing community policing
kind of wane right now becausethere's not a lot of opportunity
to do the kind ofproblem-solving planning that's
required for those kind ofinterventions because of short
staffing.
So if you could pictureyourself, you know test driving
(10:10):
our course.
We're going to be releasing anopportunity for officers and
aspiring officers to test drivethree skills of their choice, to
get an experience of the onlinecourse, just to sample it, to
test drive it.
So these five people skill setsfully equip leaders of all
ranks, sworn professional staffand basically they get an
(10:31):
opportunity to reallyself-examine the extent to which
they have self-managementskills and there are 12 of those
skills.
An opportunity to examine theextent to which they have
interpersonal communication,which includes empathy, training
and coaching of others.
So they really need to know theextent to which they have and
don't have those skills, becausesavvy personnel people are
(10:54):
actually promotingcompetency-based people, people
who have demonstrated thecapability to lead a team.
Then the team leadership forcontinuous improvement.
Once a person gains teamleadership skills, they can
actually run a continuousimprovement team that has an
impact on the entireorganization and the community.
I've tested this with about 40different organizations and it's
(11:15):
worked every time to someextent, until a new chief comes
in and says stop doingcontinuous improvement because
it's not my way of makingdecisions.
This continuous improvementteam is building it as one of
the skills and how to lead acontinuous improvement team for
problem solving and for targetedimpact on community issues.
Steve Morreale (11:34):
So a couple of things come to mind.
As a retired professor, youknow that one of the things that
we have to do is to document aphilosophy of teaching.
Right, you sit down, you thinkabout what do I want to do?
How am I approaching it?
How am I looking at students?
How am I looking at studentlearning?
How am I facilitating in theclassroom?
How am I assessing?
You have to document this.
This causes a need forself-reflection.
(11:55):
What I'm beginning to do and Ispoke to you that I'm working on
a book on leadership recipeswhat are some of the ingredients
of leadership, and so I'vestarted to talk about asking
people to understand what theirphilosophy of leadership is,
which is a takeoff on what wehave to do in order to earn
promotion.
You know that You've had thatexperience right, and there's
also a thing that I work onwhich sounds quite similar.
(12:17):
It's executive corequalifications OPM.
Does it the Office of PersonnelManagement, if you're going to
move into the senior executiveservices and when you look at
those the same approach that youseem to be taking when you're
looking at a list of skills andyou're doing a self-assessment
and you're saying I feel like Ihave these skills or I need work
(12:38):
on these skills.
So it's the same sort of thing.
I think it's important.
But let's explore that a littlebit.
Self-awareness is very, veryimportant as somebody who wants
to move through the organizationinto the organization, no
longer be responsible only forthe street, but for others who
are entrusted to them.
What steps should they betaking?
What thoughts should be goingthrough their mind?
(12:58):
What sort of reflection shouldbe going on to say how can I be
a better leader?
Where are my weaknesses, whereare my strengths?
Talk about that.
Terry Anderson (13:06):
Well, it's difficult for them to assess
because most of the trainingthey would have had would have
been theory-based and notcompetency-based.
So they don't know what skillsthey haven't don't have yet.
And that's what our programoffers is that it helps officers
to identify and verify theextent to which they actually
have skills.
When we did the Department ofJustice training, we had six
(13:29):
days of training in a row.
The first two days were withexecutives, the second two days
were with trainers and the thirdtwo days were with frontline
staffs where we were watchingthe trainers deliver the program
.
And then we certified thetrainers so they can go back
into their agency and deliverthe program with free manuals
from the Department of Justicethat we designed and have been
(13:51):
certified by 35 posts across theUnited States and certified by
the Department of Justice.
And people don't know about it.
That's partly why I'm heretalking about it as the chief
leadership officer of CommandCollege.
People, if they want moreinformation, can go to
commandcollegeorg and reallytake a scan and take a look at
particularly the Magnus programthat is now turned into an app
(14:16):
so they can access skills andpractice sessions on their phone
while they're having a break ontheir job or while they're
engaged in a training programwhere they can focus on
developing how to do aparticular leadership
intervention rather thanunderstand it.
So that's the distinctivefeature of our program is that
we want to help people learn howto do leadership.
Steve Morreale (14:36):
Learn by doing right.
Terry Anderson (14:38):
Think about leadership and the leadership
theories.
So translating theories intoaction has been our primary goal
throughout the entire historyof basically 35, 40 years now.
Steve Morreale (14:48):
Well, that's interesting because certainly
talking off a lot on the podcastabout translating the dense
material that comes out of somany scientific and social
science research that is sodifficult to read and understand
for the lined officer and itsounds like that's what you're
doing You're distilling it intobite-size, understandable pieces
(15:10):
.
Terry Anderson (15:10):
Right, and I'm not doing it alone.
I'm doing it with a team ofcops who've been in the field as
leaders and in the front linefor 20 and 30 years.
Yeah, that's terrific.
I had to have them, otherwise Icouldn't really take the work
that I did in my PhD onleadership.
I couldn't take that work andtranslate it into actionable
leadership behaviors for police.
Steve Morreale (15:31):
What sort of approaches are you taking to
identifying, or to haveidentified, these skills and
building upon them andcontinually growing them and
changing them and gettingfeedback from people who have
tried them?
And it's true, how do youcapture that?
Terry Anderson (15:47):
Well, we know the skills have validity from
the fields of social work andcounseling and those are the
basic foundational skills ofself-management and
interpersonal communication andproblem solving.
That literature is solid andthe training is solid and it's
competency-based.
And if you get a master'sdegree in social worker
counseling, you have to performa video assessment that
(16:09):
demonstrates you actually havethe capability to facilitate
someone through aproblem-solving sequence and you
have the skills to do that.
Otherwise you don't graduate.
That's the way we ran ourprogram at the University of the
Fraser Valley is we had a videoassessment at the end of each
course and then they had to goout into the field with one of
our graduates and spend 480hours in the field in an agency
(16:33):
demonstrating they had thoseskills and they had to pass
their field practice or theydidn't get a degree.
Steve Morreale (16:39):
The field practical that you see in school
counseling and in social work,some of the things that you're
talking about.
That's very fascinating to mebecause the counseling aspect
that I know you do an awful lotof coaching.
The counseling aspect is prettyimportant and yet police
officers do counseling withoutthe certification in many cases.
Terry Anderson (17:00):
Right.
They're faced with situationsthat they aren't really fully
equipped to deal with and thatcauses them to have a terrible
amount of stress.
I mean, they see so muchnegativity, more than most
people see in the first twoyears of their adult life.
Cops see a whole lifetime intwo years, a lifetime of stress
and a lifetime of tragedy in twoyears, and then the years are
(17:22):
packed with the small microtraumas that can end up causing
them to be traumatized in thelong run.
Steve Morreale (17:28):
Well, we're talking to Terry Anderson and he
is in Los Angeles today.
He is retired from a life ofeducation at the university
level and now as the chiefleadership officer at Command
College.
Where is the Command College?
Terry Anderson (17:42):
It's in Raleigh, north Carolina, and it was
started about 12 years ago by DrMitch Javidi, who has developed
the organization and hasattracted the key leaders in the
United States and Canada to beon the board and to be as their
advisors and to be faculty toteach various courses that we
(18:02):
offer to the justice and publicsafety system, including now
fire and rescue.
We just finished the firstedition of the fire and rescue
book, which is Every Fire andRescue Professional is a Leader.
It's based upon the policeedition and the fire people are
telling us thank you so muchbecause there isn't anything out
there like this that we've seenand they're actually being able
(18:24):
to use it right away.
Steve Morreale (18:25):
Yeah, we talked about that as we prepared for
this, and I think that's afascinating and an underserved
population, so I'm glad you'reable to do that.
Terry, take me into a morecurrent class, where you're
talking to a group of people,whether online or in person.
How do you set the stage?
How do you set the table?
(18:46):
Tell me what's in it for me,tell me why I should be here.
Tell me why I should listen.
Terry Anderson (18:51):
Well, I guess the most relevant thing to
everybody who comes into myclass is their own personal life
, and so we start with that.
We just say look, all theskills you can learn here are
applicable to your personal lifeas well as to your career.
You're going to take theseskills home, and we actually ask
people to practice the skillsat home first and practice the
skills in their community groupsand practice their skills then
(19:13):
at work, so they have anopportunity to verify and get
feedback and feed forward frompeople they're working with.
We invite people who take ourcourse to coach someone on their
team and then to get them takenthe course so they co-coach one
another.
So that's a really powerful wayto extend the learning from the
classroom into the field, andwe're seeing that just happen
(19:35):
spontaneously, so it's not ahard sell.
People are hungry to know howto do leadership behaviors and
how to practice them so theybecome proficient and skilled.
They become unconsciouslycompetent.
Steve Morreale (19:49):
Right.
I remember many years ago goingto a training and I was the
only law enforcement officer inthat training.
It happened to be inPhiladelphia, it was called
train the trainer, and one ofthe things that struck me and
it's exactly what I'm hearingyou say tell me what's in it for
me.
And that sounds like you'resaying exactly right, let me
talk about your lived experience.
Let's talk about some of theimpediments to learning, some of
(20:09):
the impediments, some of theshortcomings that you may find
yourself, that you really don'twant to talk about, but that
could be valuable, both what I'mhearing you say, both to you at
work and you at home.
So that's pretty fascinating.
Go ahead.
Terry Anderson (20:22):
Officers have told us that it's so important
that they get that at thebeginning of learning a skill
that we have now put it at thefront end of every skill.
What's in it for you to learnthis skill?
All 60 skills have that rightat the front end, both in the
book and the field guide.
Steve Morreale (20:37):
Yeah, good, so that's good, so you're getting
it, you're getting it.
I'm not trying to say you don't, but I can see the value of
that.
Go ahead.
Terry Anderson (20:43):
It's coming back to us that that causes them to
want to dig into it deeper andlearn more, and learn faster,
yeah.
Steve Morreale (20:50):
I mean you got to get buy in and you got to
make it count for them, which isgood, and hopefully, with all
of the noise that's been goingon with policing, you know, as
this continues, I think it couldbe very valuable.
Terry, I know that you're veryfamiliar with what goes on up in
our northern for me, ournorthern neighbor, canada, and
I've also spent some time inEurope and I know we talked a
(21:11):
little bit about that beforehand.
What strikes me is that whenI've been working with the guard
and even with police agenciesin the UK, that they do things a
bit different.
It's problem based learning.
It requires them to come backfrom the field after some
experience, much like you saidthat social workers will do that
learn, apply and come back andassess and reflect.
(21:32):
And that happens.
It doesn't happen in the UnitedStates.
How do we try to encouragereflection on?
Okay, everybody, you were outthere, you tried it, what worked
and what didn't, what would youdo differently?
Terry Anderson (21:44):
Well, it is happening in some places, and
I'm thinking of Sheriff CraigChampagne, for example, who is
now the president of theNational Sheriff's Association.
He ran our program with all ofhis staffs, born and civilian,
for a period of five years.
He kept tracking the outcomesand he actually made a two
minute video to summarize whatthe impact of our program was,
(22:08):
after all of his staff took itfor five years.
Steve Morreale (22:11):
Well, let's see if it works.
If it doesn't work, I'll justput a link on it, but give it a
try.
So we're back with TerryAnderson, dr Terry Anderson, in
Los Angeles.
I'm Steve Moriali here inBoston and we've been talking
about every officer, a leader inthe work that he in command
college are doing to try toexpand the idea of skills-based
learning and competency-basedlearning.
And there is a sheriff inLouisiana, greg Champagne, who
(22:34):
has courted.
I will try to include it and,if not, leave a link in it.
But in short order, what's yourtake on what the sheriff said?
Terry Anderson (22:42):
Well, basically, that leadership skills training
results in internal and publiclegitimacy and credibility.
That it reduced liabilities,reduced lawsuits, payouts,
created a better place to workfor people retire healthily and
happily compared to the way itwas before the course.
Create a better place to workthat attracts new hires.
(23:03):
They have people wanting towork for them because the
reputation is hey, this is thebest place to work.
Engage in continuousimprovement, teaming that
collaboratively crafts andexecutes strategy that gets
results with confidence, bothinside of the organization and
in the community, and then gaina higher level of respect and
trust from the community.
(23:24):
So those are the outcomes thathe measured continuously for
five years.
He's not the only one.
He's the only one who happensto be the president of the
National Sheriffs Associationwho make the video.
Steve Morreale (23:35):
So you don't seem to be a guy who likes to
rest on his laurels.
What's going on now that thisbook is done?
How are you continuing to becurious and explore and help
public safety?
Terry Anderson (23:47):
Well, in Canada they have adopted our course and
Canadianized the course withsome of their own videos I'm
laughing at Canadianized.
Steve Morreale (23:56):
I didn't know there was such a term, Terry.
Terry Anderson (23:59):
Yeah, they Canadianized the course that we
developed, essentially on 360videos at one of the largest
police departments in Californiaand I can't mention any police
agency's names just becausewithout their permission they
don't want me to, but I can tellyou it's one of the very
largest police agencies that thedeputy chief, I met him and I
(24:20):
was on a committee with him,interoperability committee
between the sheriff's departmentand a police department and
fire departments.
He read our book finally, afterI sat on this committee for a
year and he said we have to dothis at our agency.
And so he said I have avideography team and I have a
group of 30 handpicked people.
Let's shoot all the videos foreach of the skills.
(24:42):
So for every one of the skillswe shot an introduction to the
skill and why it's important toyou and relevant to you.
A second video was ademonstration or a story about
how the skill is needed and howit's been used in the past.
And the third video is actuallymodeling of the skill
performance.
So people can see how the skillworks in real time, talking
(25:03):
with a real officer with a realproblem, and they can see how
the problem solving systemactually can be achieved and can
be enjoyed.
Steve Morreale (25:12):
That's terrific.
So what's next on your list ofthings?
Terry Anderson (25:15):
Well, we're looking at moving this into
smaller units of training on theMagnus Works app that we've
just developed.
So if anybody goes tocommandcollegeorg, they can
download the Magnus Works appand their whole agency can
download the app, and if theywant to get data about officer
morale, officer performance,officer mental health, the
(25:39):
organization can sign up andthey can get organization-wide
data about these issues andabout leadership competence,
which is coming next.
That's what we're adding to themix, and so this Magnus Works
is a way for officers to enhancetheir mental health and their
resilience, while they also pickup skills that they need to
(25:59):
function more effectively, notonly at home, but on the job.
So it's really a life skillstraining program for leaders.
Steve Morreale (26:10):
That's great.
So how do people reach you?
Terry Anderson (26:17):
They typically go to my consultingcoachcom
website and I have a series ofeight different coaching
packages that they can take alook at.
They can self assess which onethey might be relevant to them,
and I spend a few days a weekcoaching people who really are
(26:38):
motivated.
You say are motivated.
They are motivated Becausethey've already kind of looked
into it and they've alreadybought into it and they want to
accelerate their leadershipdevelopment and their
promotability.
Usually that's one of the majorthings that I end up doing is
promotional coaching or careerplanning, career path planning.
(26:58):
That's how basically they findout about me through the
International Academy of PublicSafety's Command College, then
contact me and I'm alsocertified by the state of
California to do the executiveteam building workshop.
So I've been doing several ofthose a year with various
sheriff's departments and policeagencies in the state of
California.
Steve Morreale (27:18):
What do you want your legacy to be, Terry
Anderson?
Terry Anderson (27:21):
That my vision that I had sitting by the creek
at Chico State in 1967 wouldbecome a reality, and that's
that leaders would becomecapable of developing other
leaders for enhanced publicsafety.
That's it in a nutshell Leaderswould become more capable of
developing other leaders so thatenhanced public safety happens.
(27:41):
And it's all about leadership,competence and the confidence
that you have when you knowyou're competent.
That's really, really freeingand really important, and it
causes the team to trust you.
It causes them to get excited,particularly since you know how
to do collaborative decisionmaking and problem solving
instead of command and controldecision making.
(28:02):
Everybody on the teamappreciates being included and
having their intelligence bewoven into the fabric of a
solution to a community problemor to an organizational problem,
of course.
Steve Morreale (28:15):
Of course.
I mean I think in a lot of wayspolice officers do not.
I mean they feel they'reoverworked.
I understand that, butsometimes they don't feel
appreciated even by their ownagency, because decisions very
much are made in a vacuum andthey do not engage people.
(28:36):
And yet we hire people fortheir intellect and we tell them
to do what they're told.
You know, just react to that.
Terry Anderson (28:44):
Well, what we found is that the average chief
who comes in and applies to bechief does not have these skills
.
It's actually one in 10, maybehas many of the skills.
But the board who's selectingthe chief doesn't know how to
determine whether or not theseapplicants have leadership
(29:06):
skills.
They know how to determine whattheir degrees are, what their
past experience is, and evenpersonnel head hunting agencies
don't know how to assess theextent to which applicants for
police chief or leadershippositions have competence.
They don't know how to do it,and it's not their fault, it's
nobody's fault.
It's that our educationalsystem could teach people these
(29:31):
skills from elementary schoolthrough high school and
everybody could have the skills.
But it's not part of ourcurriculum anywhere that we know
of in the world.
Steve Morreale (29:40):
No, it's not so.
And which troubling me too, andI know you as a student and
scholar of leadership.
So many people misunderstandthe distinct and the subtle
differences between managementand leadership.
Terry Anderson (29:57):
Yes, and they believe typically, unless
they've had a competency-basedleadership course, they believe
that the better managers theyare, more they're likely to get
recognized, appreciated andpromoted, and so they try to
manage their way to the top, andunfortunately, that works two
(30:19):
thirds of the time.
Yeah, you understand.
And so what we have are andparticularly as the organization
becomes larger, we haveincreasing ivory towers
manifesting, where thecommunication links between
those people at the top andthose people in the middle and
the people on the front istypically lacking and
(30:41):
sorrowfully lacking.
Steve Morreale (30:43):
Wow, I'm gonna stop from it.
I'm gonna take a quick breakand I'm gonna keep talking,
because I wanna talk aboutlistening, communicating those
skills which are very important,so I'll be right back, okay.
Terry Anderson (30:54):
Wow, hmm, mmhm.
Steve Morreale (31:53):
Okay, I'll leave .
Thank you, I'll leave a anothergap just before we get started.
I'll introduce you again andI'll ask some of those questions
.
Okay, anything else you want tocover before I continue?
I?
Terry Anderson (32:06):
think we're good .
Okay, great, thank you Okay.
Steve Morreale (32:15):
So we continue with our chat with Terry
Anderson.
Dr Terry Anderson, and he isthe author of Every Officer is a
Leader and the field guide thatgoes along with it.
Terry, we've been talking aboutskills.
We just talked about managementversus leadership, and I'd like
(32:37):
you to take the listeners downa rough list.
You can't go through all 60skills, but in your mind, what
are the basic elements andskills needed for leadership?
Name four or five importantones.
Terry Anderson (32:56):
Well, grounding is the most fundamental skill
and that means the capacity tohave enough internal
self-control to stay in thepresent and to stay focused.
If I'm asked to stand watchsomewhere anywhere in the system
, if I'm asked to stand watch, Ihave to have the capacity of
inner self-control.
I have to be grounded enough tomaintain a focus.
(33:19):
And that takes muscle, mentalmuscle development.
And I just got certified inpositive intelligence, which is
a coach training program.
Steve Morreale (33:28):
Did you not have it before this?
Terry Anderson (33:31):
No, I didn't.
I was good, but I didn't knowhow to execute it at command.
I understood Possible.
Intelligence course gave memore mental muscle than what I
had, and I'm able now to passthat muscle development along to
other people who decide to takethe course.
Steve Morreale (33:48):
Great, what else besides grounding?
We talked a little bit.
I was wondering about listeningand communication skills and
coaching skills.
Terry Anderson (33:58):
There are 12 self-management skills and 12
interpersonal communication andproblem-solving skills.
Gotcha Good.
So we start out with groundingand then centering, which means
I understand my values, mybeliefs and how that affects my
job.
So I'm in touch and clear aboutwhere I stand, with my beliefs
(34:21):
and assumptions about the natureof people, about the nature of
life, about my belief system.
I have some clarity and I havethe foundation of my inner life
established.
That gives me a perspective onwhere I stand in the use of
force.
If I believe that people aren'tworth anything, I'm not going
(34:46):
to hesitate when it comes timeto make a decision about pulling
a trigger, unless I'mself-protecting myself from risk
.
So there's grounding, there'scentering, there's attending,
giving undivided attention,which means leaning towards
(35:06):
someone, facing them, squaringyour shoulders, giving eye
contact without staring in orderto receive information from
them.
That's most of its nonverbal,and so that knowledge about how
to turn and face someone andlean into the relationship is a
mechanical skill.
(35:27):
Almost it's just like pullingthe bow back on the arrow and
getting enough strength andstability to hit the target.
And so focusing, using theattending and the observing
skills, and particularly thesuspending skill, is the most
difficult one to develop,because what are we suspending?
(35:48):
If we're suspending using thatskill, is we're suspending
judgment, emotions and prematureadvice.
So the judge comes alongwhenever we're running into a
stress situation and it judgeshow we're reacting, how we're
evaluating that situation as toits threat.
(36:12):
And if we're caught up and stuckin the judge mode, then we also
start reacting from the leftside of the brain.
And that reactivity is whatcauses a lot of officers to get
into trouble because they're notbasing what they're doing on
what's really happening in frontof them.
(36:33):
And experienced officers knowhow to do this very well.
They're grounded, they'recentered, they attend, they
observe, they listeninteractively and they check for
what other people mean by whatthey say.
And then they even go intounderstanding some people's
feelings by having a feelingword list developed in their
(36:56):
vocabulary.
The average person only hasabout 20 words feeling words
that they use in their families,with their friends.
But the more precise thefeeling word is, the more
accurate the understanding isthan the more.
That encourages two waycommunication and then problem
solving.
Steve Morreale (37:14):
Is this a little similar, and I don't mean to
label it, but a bit of emotionalintelligence.
Terry Anderson (37:24):
These are the skills that enable emotional
intelligence to manage.
Steve Morreale (37:28):
Yeah, exactly, I didn't mean to cut you off like
that, but you know I'm hearingexactly what you're saying, but
I'm so.
So this is like peeling backthe onion to see what leads to
understanding your emotionalintelligence and other people
reading other people, that kindof stuff.
So that's fascinating to me.
Terry Anderson (37:47):
It really is, and it's not only fascinating
conceptually, but it is afreeing, a release to be able to
acquire these skills andpractice them.
And most people who have takenmy courses over 8,000 people
have gone through my coursesthey come back to class every
(38:09):
week and they say, wow, I justpracticed this at home.
I didn't take it back to workyet, but or some people do.
But they say I need theseskills at home.
I can't believe I haven't had.
How have I made it this farwithout these skills, literally.
So I've had people come backand say I was able to rescue a
(38:29):
marriage that was going sideways.
I was able to establish two-waycommunication with my teenager
that I wasn't able to establishbefore, and I'm a more
understanding, more patient,more kind person who's more
likely to interveneappropriately instead of giving
premature advice or pulling thetrigger too soon.
Steve Morreale (38:54):
Interesting.
I hear sometimes in my own frommy own spouse that I really
didn't want you to solve myproblem.
I just wanted you to listen andthat you understand what I'm
saying and sometimes that weneed to understand that I've
learned the hard way.
Sometimes they say because copshave a tendency to want to
(39:16):
solve problems and move on tothe next problem instead of just
listening.
Terry Anderson (39:20):
It's not their fault and they are pressured for
time, terribly pressured fortime, so I give them a lot of
grace and I've been on 1400hours of ride-alongs with them,
so I understand what the streetlooks like.
I've seen some things I wish Ihadn't seen and, just like they
do, so I know the skills.
(39:41):
Work on the street with someonewho is afraid of cops.
All the cop has to do isobserve them and respond with
understanding to the state thatthey're in, and then two-way
communication starts.
Steve Morreale (39:58):
No question, I do an awful lot of work and have
been assisting some agenciesbased on the work of co-response
, and so you would understandthat it's a clinician in the
police vehicle with, and veryoften, if the police officer can
begin to trust that clinicianand allow them to do their thing
(40:21):
on the scene, as soon as thingshave settled and there's no
threat, what you begin to see isthe police officer very often
learns from the approach of theclinician, the social worker, on
how to de-escalate a situation,how to address somebody who is
(40:42):
in a state of difficulty, evenby just saying not I'm Officer
Morielli, but I'm Steve and I'mhere because you seem to be.
So I'm seeing a shake your head.
Terry Anderson (40:54):
I have the benefit of watching you, but
clearly you understand that Wellan officer's understand it too,
and when they have theopportunity to go through the
training they say that when theygo back on shift their
perspective has changed to oneof assessment first and then
(41:16):
intervention.
So they do a more luxurious,thorough assessment of what's
going on in front of them beforethey react.
Steve Morreale (41:25):
They're slowing things down to take two so they
can assess and understand.
Terry Anderson (41:29):
It's also more time for assessment, more time
for two-way communication tohappen, and that gives them far
more information about what'sgoing to be appropriate that
they might do next.
Great, that's great.
So in the agencies that havethe two person social worker and
cop going out to the domesticdispute situation, the officers
(41:55):
who have that social worker withthem are actually getting
training and those skills.
Steve Morreale (42:01):
I understand they're watching it.
They're watching what works andwhat didn't.
I, as we went down, I'll tellyou a story about a colleague of
mine who started doing this inMassachusetts 25, 30 years ago
and, forced upon a sergeant hedidn't like it at first watches
her act, watches her calm thingsdown, has to handle a situation
(42:24):
because it may be moredangerous than most, and so she
has to stay back and she listens.
And afterwards he comes backand she says to him Greg, I
can't believe the way youhandled it.
And he said what do you mean?
And she said you sounded likeyou were with me.
(42:44):
And he said what the F?
Don't you think I'm listeningto you so clearly?
He's learning, right, I'm justan amazing transformation.
Terry Anderson (42:54):
Right, and the cops who've gone out with the
social workers have come andthey've taken our course, have
told me that their colleagueswant to take our course because
they want the skills that thatofficer has because he just got
promoted or he's the leader of ateam now and it's skill envy.
Steve Morreale (43:19):
I love that skill envy.
Terry Anderson (43:22):
The ideal training scenario, in my
personal opinion, is thatofficers would get exposed to
all the skills and introduce tothem and start practicing them
during recruit training.
Then their field trainingofficer for six months would
have already been trained andthe field training officer, in
responding to calls and goingthrough those motions, would be
(43:43):
solidifying those skills andverifying that that officer is
ready to go on the street ontheir own.
But without those skillsthey're just jumping into a pool
of confusion and complexitythat's actually difficult for
anybody to manage and with theskills it's easier because you
have a rudder, you have somesense of what you could do next.
(44:03):
That could make a positivedifference.
Steve Morreale (44:06):
We've got to wind down, terri, but I have a
couple of questions for you.
We're talking to Terri Anderson, dr Terri Anderson.
He is sitting in Los Angelestoday and we're here in Boston.
I'm sure that your weather ismuch better than our weather
here.
But what are you reading, asbusy as you are writing and all
this stuff, what do you do tocontinually learn and understand
(44:26):
and grow your ideas and growyour concepts?
What do you read?
Magazines, books.
Terry Anderson (44:33):
I read books, I listen to podcasts and I think
probably the work that I do inresearching what I'm going to
write next is probably where Ido the most learning.
What I'm writing next is myautobiography.
I had my son pass two monthsago, oh, so sorry.
So I'm dealing with grief andprocessing grief and
(44:53):
understanding grief like I'venever understood it before.
My parents passed, you know, adecade ago, and I knew they were
going and I was doing prettywell with that, but this was
totally unexpected.
He just didn't wake up onemorning and we don't know why.
I'm trying to learn about grief,how to process grief and how.
That's related to PTSD, becauseI have PTSD.
(45:16):
I have been traumatized by thesix months delay that the
Sheriff's Department has in thecoroner's office to be able to
do a toxicology report.
That's really frustrating forme because I don't know why my
son died and it's sorrowful.
So I'm studying grief and theprocessing of grief and I'm
learning better how to grief andI think this is what everybody
(45:38):
goes through when they see atragic incident and all the cops
I know and all the rightalongside Ben on they have to
process a certain amount ofgrief, sometimes after every
shift when they see a lot ofstuff happen.
I understand, and so I'mlooking at positive intelligence
in this program as a way tohelp people process this really
quickly, and I'm getting betterat it.
Steve Morreale (45:59):
So you're using your own pain to try to
understand it and then to usethat to help others.
That's what it sounds likeAbsolutely Good for you.
I'm so sorry about your loss.
One more question, though.
I'm going to throw a curveballat you If you had a chance to
sit down with anybody who haspassed, who has written or has
inspired you about their work, apublic figure who might?
Terry Anderson (46:20):
that be.
I would like to spend some timewith Gerard Egan, who said on
my PhD committee.
He's not passed yet.
As far as I know, I think he'sstill alive, but he's one person
that just comes to mind rightnow.
He was the head of the CORDprogram, the Community and
Organization Development Program, at Loyola University.
I didn't attend there, but hewas on my committee as a chair
my PhD committee so I studiedunder him and learned everything
(46:44):
and taught using his textbookcalled the Skilled Helper for 25
years.
He's kind of my conceptual hero, as well as Dr Alan Ivy, who
also sat on my PhD committee andhe was at the University of
Massachusetts before he retired.
So these are kind of the livingheroes.
I guess if I could study withanybody who's passed, I'd like
to spend some time with Gandhi.
(47:04):
I'd like to learn how he wasable to maintain grounding and
centering and composure andpeace in the midst of conflict
and chaos and promote that toothers.
I think that's a pretty coolachievement.
Steve Morreale (47:18):
Yeah, well, thank you.
Thank you very much.
I wish you good luck in yourwork in the future.
I hope that listeners havegained much from what you have
talked about, what you have done.
We've been talking with DrTerry Anderson and he wrote
Every Officer is a Leader.
He's on his fourth version ofthat book with others, and also
that comes along with a fieldguide that you may find valuable
(47:42):
.
So, terry, you have the lastword.
What do you say to policeofficers who have a difficult
job, but how to work towardsimproving their abilities and
their capabilities?
Terry Anderson (47:52):
Well, I guess, first of all, my colleagues and
I deeply care, and most of thepeople who worked with me on
writing the fourth edition ofthe book are cops or retired
cops, and I think as you readthe book you're going to find
there's a heart for you.
I have a heart for you andthat's why I do all this.
I could retire easily right nowand not do anything, but it
just wouldn't be part of my lineof purpose.
Steve Morreale (48:14):
That's great.
It's a great purpose, isn't it?
Yes, thank you Enjoy.
Enjoy your time in yoursnowbird location, and when will
you head back up north?
Terry Anderson (48:22):
Every six months , so next April we go back.
Steve Morreale (48:26):
That's great.
Terry Anderson (48:27):
And we just go back and forth.
We're dual citizens and enablesus to have that freedom
Terrific.
Steve Morreale (48:31):
Thanks so much for spending the time.
I really do appreciate it.
This is Steve Morielli, andyou've been listening to the Cop
Doc podcast, so that is anotherepisode on the books.
Terry, thank you so much.
Terry Anderson (48:42):
Appreciate how you did this.
It's wonderful.
Intro - Outro (48:46):
Thanks for listening to The Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The Cop DocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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