September 26, 2023 • 53 mins
Season 6 - Episode 112 - The CopDoc Podcast
What if you could unlock the secrets behind effective leadership and innovation in policing? Join us for an enlightening conversation with Dr. Obed Magny, a LEADS Scholar alum and former Sacramento police officer, as we discuss his journey from the front lines to his current work with Magny Leadership. Learn how reform and other issues have impacted police officers' job satisfaction, and how Dr. Magny was instrumental in creating the American Society of Evidence-Based Policing and a participant in the LEADS Scholars Program to advocate for research and ensure public safety.
As we delve deeper into Dr. Magny's insights, we explore the importance of purpose in opening up new opportunities for those nearing the end of their careers. Uncover how having a purpose beyond the job can help individuals plan for the future, while also revealing the dangers of tying one's identity solely to the job. In addition, we discuss the role of purpose in helping professionals find new paths and continue to thrive in their chosen fields.
Finally, we tackle the complex topic of race and policing, examining whether all police officers and agencies are inherently racist, how we can address implicit bias, and the unique experience of being a person of color and a police officer. Listen in as we consider the importance of trust and legitimacy in building relationships between police and communities, and the 54th Mile project – a 54-mile walk from Selma to Montgomery, Alabama, that three police practitioners undertook. Don't miss this vital discussion on improving policing and promoting unity.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:02):
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The cop doc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:24):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:32):
Well, hello again everybody.
Steve Morreale, coming to youfrom Boston, smoky Boston.
I was just saying because thesmoke is coming down from Canada
and the wildfires.
But I have someone on the otherside of the country, on the
Pacific time zone, D r.
Obed Magny, and he is in LasVegas today.
Obed, how are you?
I'm good man.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm fine.
(00:52):
Thank you so much for finallyconnecting.
We've been on the phone off andon.
I see some of the things thatyou've been doing.
I think one way that we trackothers, unfortunately in this
world now is with LinkedIn.
So I see some of the workyou've been doing.
I want to tell the listenersabout you.
I want you to tell us aboutyourself also, but I know that
you've been at this.
You're a former police officerfor many years in Sacramento.
(01:14):
You went back for a graduateand a doctoral credential and
you are now running Magnileadership and doing some work
in the policing field, right?
Obed Magny (01:22):
Yes, sir, that's pretty good Child's of heart,
Child's of heart right.
Steve Morreale (01:26):
Yes.
So I think what's important andI've talked to a number of your
colleagues many years ago andactually not so many years ago I
was speaking to a colleague theother day and I said, wow, when
I first broke in I wished theLEADS program was in place
because I would have applied ina heartbeat, but it was not.
It came after I started backfrom policing and into academia.
But you are a LEADS scholaralum And one of the things that
(01:49):
I know that you were involved inwas the development or the
establishment of the AmericanSociety of Evidence-Based
Policing.
So talk about your trajectory,how you ended up leaving the
police department, the kind ofwork you did there, and then
what you're doing now.
Obed Magny (02:03):
Yeah, let's see if I can make a five week story and
truncate it for you.
So when I was a police officeraround 2007, i decided to go and
get my master's degree.
Now, being a fellow Bostonianfor those of you in the audience
I went to UMass Boston, grew upin Dorchester, went to
Dorchester High So shout out toall my Boston peeps that are
listening to the show But afterI got my bachelor's degree from
(02:25):
UMass Boston, i swore that Iwould never go back home.
I had no interest in going tograduate school.
You couldn't pay me to go backto graduate school.
Something happened a policeofficer and there were some
things going on in the policeand professions that I loved And
I saw that there were room forimprovement in other areas.
So I decided to go back and getmy master's degree and got my
doctor's degree.
Now, as you were just talkingabout the trajectory, this was
(02:47):
kind of somewhat of anunorthodox trajectory because I
didn't even see this coming evenas I was going through this
journey.
My dissertation topic was onjob satisfaction in police
officers.
There were a couple of thingsthat I saw in policing related
to, obviously, with the economiccollapse of 08.
We saw that pension reform camedown the pike and all these
things that were just brand newto policing in general, and in
(03:08):
that space there were officerssaying you know what, i don't
think I want to do this jobanymore.
I think I'm going to get out.
There was this level ofdissatisfaction that was going
on And I remember specifically aparticular unit where
everything was harmonious,everything was great.
The leaders left that unit andanother leadership crew came in
and there was like a 90, 95%math exodus within a year And I
(03:30):
was like how does that happen?
That's how I got interested inthe whole job satisfaction,
morale and so on and so forth.
Steve Morreale (03:36):
What's causing the runaway, correct?
Obed Magny (03:39):
Correct, so I was seeing this firsthand and I was
seeing some of this in theresearch.
One of my colleagues, Dr.
Renee Mitchell, shout out toRenee Mitchell, yeah, I know She
was on the show a while back.
Yes, Yeah, and so you know,Renee and I worked together when
we were at SacPD and we wouldhave many conversations about
the opportunity for policing toimprove in many respects related
to research and so on.
And we all know that policingis one of those aircraft
(04:01):
carriers that when we talk aboutchange, it's going to take a
while for it to turn around.
It's not going to happen rightaway.
And one of the things about DrRenee Mitchell, myself and of
the like-minded folks is that wewere solutions-oriented.
So if we couldn't find thesolution or if we couldn't get
the solving of the problem donewithin our own respective
agencies because there wereother people who are like-minded
folks who worked for otherdepartments, we decided, you
(04:22):
know what?
let's go ahead and create theAmerican Society of
Evidence-Based Police.
Let's create an institutionthat's gonna advocate and push
for research being a foundation,because number one rule of
research is do you know, harm,and obviously, we don't want to
do any harm to the public, forthose of us who work in public
safety.
So that's kind of how itstarted.
So fast forward.
From there.
The LEED Scholars Program wasbirthed, the National Institute
(04:43):
of Justice, and I was fortunateenough to be one of the 10
people who are selected eachyear to be a LEED scholar, and
then it led into me being apolice official with the
National Police Institute and soon and so forth.
And now fast forward.
Here we are in 2023, the WhiteHouse has officially recognized
the American Society ofEvidence-Based Police as an
institution.
When you talk about policereforms, that should be looked
to as a leader to be in the partof that solution.
(05:04):
And I just want to share thispiece real quick.
It was a whole bunch of cops, awhole bunch of cops from around
the country saying, hey, we cando this better, what can we do
to solve the problem?
And we came together and againwe helped create the American
Society of Evidence-Based Policething.
And here we are, not even 10years out.
The office at the highest levelrecognizes us as being very
influential and being part ofthe solution and solving the
long-term issues that we have inpolice.
Steve Morreale (05:25):
As it should be.
I'm very happy to say that I'vebeen a member for a few years.
I kicked myself in the behindfor not showing up in Vegas this
particular year, because Ithink it's a wonderful
organization And I've beendealing with the Canadian
Society, the Australian Society,the Australian New Zealand
Society, and so it is somethingthat many people resist.
But it is extremely importantthat, much like evidence-based
(05:48):
medicine, that we doevidence-based policing, that we
have some proof.
And as a professor and I knowyou're an adjunct when you're
talking to students and peopleare uttering sometimes some
crazy thoughts, you say well,how can you prove that?
Tell me whether or not it'sanecdotal or it is actually
grounded in research and someempirical study.
(06:09):
It's ironic too your jobsatisfaction work that you did.
That's what I did.
I was doing transformationalleadership and whether
transformational leadershipstyles invoke better work ethic
and job satisfaction in mindmany, many years ago.
So there's some overlap there,which is terrific.
And so you're an author, you'rea writer, you're a researcher,
you're a facilitator and you'regoing around the country doing
(06:30):
all kinds of things.
Please don't take this wrong.
I don't think you will, but forthose of us who are academics,
that's what I would constituteboth of us right People who have
done the work and earn anacademic credential.
So not quite academic, but apractical academic, if you will.
So if that's the case, the lastperson I talked to was Jim
O'Keefe, and again is one ofthose guys, like you said.
(06:51):
That said, I never saw myself asearning a doctorate.
When school was over I was done.
I remember getting my master'sdegree and being on the police
department and realizing I don'twanna shake doors for the rest
of my life.
That's really what the turningpoint was.
And then I must tell you, ihate to say, that I got bored,
but I was looking to the future,like you were, i'm sure, and I
(07:12):
remember trying so hard to finda program And some people saying
to me, as they might've said toyou we're putting a cohort
together, we've already got acop.
I was a federal agent But Iknow in the back of my mind it
was always like I don't know ifI'm smart enough for this.
And I don't know if you had thatsame feeling at first, but
self-doubt.
It's not that we're not smart,by any means, but you think me,
(07:32):
the cop is gonna be going for adoctorate.
And then you sit in theclassroom and you realize I
could do this, is that?
Obed Magny (07:37):
I see you had shake your head, but talk about that.
I can tell you.
I remember this like it was 15minutes ago, my very first day.
Matt Powers was the professor,cal State, long Beach.
Shout out to my Cal State, longBeach folks.
I remember the first day I wassitting in this class and
everybody was doing theintroduction across the room and
he starts talking and I'm likeI do not belong here.
I am in way over my head.
(07:59):
This is I was a C averagestudent in high school.
I graduated undergrad with a2.01 GPA.
The joke that I like to tell isthat I majored in football and
track and field when I was atUMass, boston right, because I
had zero direction as far aslike where I wanted to go in
life.
But here I am, first day, and Ijust remember within those
first 15 minutes I was like I'ma fish out of water.
(08:20):
I definitely don't belong here.
And, to your point, as Icontinue those 50 classes and
everything, i was like you know,this is so bad and that's what
it's like, right, whenever youtry something new, it's just
awkward, it's clunky, it's likeI really believe should I be
here?
Like you said, there's selfdoubt and sometimes we think
about their self efficacy.
Right, if you have policeofficer, you're just.
That's the equivalent of a jock.
(08:40):
But you're just an officer.
That's smart stuff.
It's for other people, it's notfor you.
And you know that's what I'mgetting over Here.
I am 4.0 later with my mastersand then, when I was getting my
doctorate So I did it five yearsin a row between the masters
and the doctorate Finished mydissertation before the
coursework was over.
Now, if you had told me atUMass Boston I was gonna be
doing that, i would have beenlike there's no, not in this
(09:01):
lifetime or the next lifetime.
But you know what?
anything put your mind to itAnd I know it sounds corny, but
this is one of the things that Iknow we'll get into it today.
But purpose is everything, man.
If you have purpose in life, ifyou have purpose in what you're
doing, you're gonna be off tothe barriers, but you're just
gonna crash right through thosebarriers, making those things
happen.
Steve Morreale (09:18):
Yeah, that's a message.
Obed Magny (09:19):
And.
Steve Morreale (09:20):
I love what you're saying.
It's interesting.
there's two things that come tomind I just jotted down.
Number one is that I remembercalling a teacher who had kinda
got me through a couple of highschool classes, in some cases
with a D minus, and I'm ashamedto tell you so I should not be
sitting in a chair teachingothers.
But it took me a little whileto find myself and I remember
calling her, probably five yearsago, and I said to her Jean,
(09:42):
remember me?
Did I remember you?
Steve?
I just have to tell you thankyou for believing in me, for
letting me get out of your class.
I just finished my doctorate andI wanted to thank you and let
you know that whatever promiseyou saw in me I didn't see, but
ultimately it paid off And sothat's important, but that whole
idea of purpose that you justsaid and there's a reason that I
think we're talking about thisand for the listeners I don't
(10:03):
want them to shut down.
It's for people who areinterested in continuing to
learn, to be lifelong learners,which I think you and I are.
I remember talking to an oldboss probably two months ago,
and he was one of my favoritebosses and it's a story I tell
in many trainings, and that isthat he believed in me and he
basically pointed me in thedirection and let me go and let
(10:24):
me flourish and let me makethings happen.
He allowed me to use mycreative juices.
But I walked away from him.
He's 90 years old right now andwe were in his company with his
wife.
He drove from Charles to from Upnear Myrtle Beach to Charleston
to meet us with his wife and Iwent away and I came back and
they were talking and my wifeand he had sort of a shit eating
(10:44):
grin on their face and I saidwhat are you talking about?
And he said I just told Kathy,don't let Steve retire.
He has to have a purpose.
He has to have something to door he'll shrink or die on the
vine, and so that's exactlywhere I'm at.
I'm at the twilight of mycareer, but I still have so many
things I wanna do writing abook, doing training and doing
the podcast and your head isshaking.
(11:05):
You look like one of those dogsin the back of an old car.
But react to that Ovid.
Obed Magny (11:11):
It purposes everything, and you said
something about you being in thetwilight of your career.
We both know that infleasing.
unfortunately and I say thatwith a capital U unfortunately,
too many people in policing tietheir purpose, their life, into
the job and the job iseverything to them.
So when you retire, when yourcareer is over in policing, a
lot of people tend to put theiryou know what my life is over
(11:32):
too, and this is why suiciderates and alcoholism and other
vices are so high, especially inretirement, because there's a
loss of purpose.
And I want people to understandthat purpose is not fucking
infleasing in a specific role,it's not the end on be all, And
when I say purpose I'm talkingabout the bigger picture.
I didn't know that when I becamea police officer I was gonna
leave policing early to start myown consulting company, but
(11:53):
there's purpose behind that.
I do want to help theprofession and I'm so worried in
this position where I'm rightnow to make the greatest impact
possible, whether it'spresenting, whether it's
teaching, consulting, all ofthose things.
So it's not a bad thing or agood thing, it's just a
directional thing.
So when you talk about thetwilight of your career, that's
just one chapter ending andchapter two beginning, and then
(12:14):
there's the chapter three andthe chapter four and the chapter
five.
One of the things, one of thegrowth disservices that we do in
this profession, is that wedon't teach that and we don't
impart that in a lot of peoplewho are in the profession
whether you're police officer,federation, doesn't matter.
We don't do that.
We tie everything into the joband you are nothing without the
job.
And then if you happen to,let's say, you get fired or you
(12:34):
need medical, retire.
there's just some people whoare sitting around like, oh my
God, what am I gonna do for therest of my life?
The majority of the truth betold, one of the reasons why I
got my doctorate degree wasbecause that hit me.
I said to myself you know, thisisn't one of these nine to five.
I'm a banker, I'm just gonna goin and I know that at five I'm
getting off on time.
I get the weekends.
That's not how this works.
You and I both know there'sbeen many people who've been
(12:54):
hurt, unfortunately many who'vebeen killed.
But I said to myself if I evergot hurt, what would my
transition be Like?
Steve Morreale (12:59):
to fall back, yeah.
Obed Magny (13:00):
Right, and you know what truth be told, i would like
the word fall back.
Steve Morreale (13:03):
This is the first thing to me, This is not a
fall back.
yeah, you understand.
Obed Magny (13:06):
You're right And I know what you mean.
I know what you mean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But this is like hey, if I'm nolonger a police officer today,
what am I doing?
What's next?
Well, i know that I, but for me, i know, i love to teach, i
love to mentor, i love to helpothers, i love to help
organizations thrive, and so on.
So I just started making it apoint in the event that that day
ever does come And I knew theday was gonna come I mean,
everybody's looking forward toretirement, but if that
(13:28):
retirement day ends up being theone sooner than expected, i'm
in a better place to put myselfto succeed.
And again, everybody's got adifferent path.
There is no one right way to dothis.
There are many, many, manyavenues that I'm not even, by
any structure of the imagination, saying to exactly what I did
and you'll get there.
I'm really got the impact.
Steve Morreale (13:45):
Well, you know, that's interesting too, because
it seems to me that when we wentback to school at a late age,
it was more meaningful to usbecause we had experience that
we could tie and apply to thelessons being given.
And again, i have a series ofstudents that I work with, some
of whom go know these four plusone programs.
And here you are today.
you're a senior, you're still asenior, you're going to start
(14:07):
your master's degree, but youhave no life experience, and so
it's much different.
It makes it a little easier,and I know that those students
learn from people who haveexperience, not just from me.
I think that's important.
So non-traditional students andbeing in class as a
non-traditional student isimportant.
But I want to ask this so manypeople will reach out to me and
say you know, steve, i'mthinking of working on my
(14:29):
doctorate, and so I'll actuallycall them and I'll say okay, why
?
What do you want to do with it?
If you are thinking that thedoctorate itself is going to
earn you a teaching position,you're woefully wrong because
there's not as many positionsavailable.
You can certainly become anadjunct.
You could do that with amaster's degree, but just
understand the time and energyit takes and the money it takes
(14:50):
to get a doctorate, and makesure that you understand why
you're doing it.
You're shaking your head.
your thoughts on that.
Obed Magny (14:55):
Absolutely.
I mean for those who are in theresearch world.
it is nothing to hear aboutstudents with their PhDs
fighting for five, six, sevenyears just to get on a tenor
track at a particular college oruniversity.
So, whether it's postdoc workor they're just trying to find a
university with an opening,there's definitely no shortage
of adjunct positions.
But we all know that the payfor adjunct is disrespectful.
(15:16):
I was just going to just saythat out loud.
And nobody goes to school forthree, four, five years right to
dissertation, to make minimumwage money.
And I'm just saying I got toput that out there.
If you're somebody who wants toget into academia and I think
you just said it brilliantly youare absolutely fooling yourself
.
If you think, oh, i got a PhD,i can just apply to any school I
want, it's like no, you've got500 people applying to this one
(15:37):
open position.
What sets you apart from thenext person?
And so that's somebody whopeople just going into that
phase.
That's just something to bemindful of.
But again, when we talk aboutthat purpose, i've stopped on
many dissertation committees andthe very first question I asked
is that right there, somebody?
Intro (15:51):
says hey.
Obed Magny (15:51):
I wanted to research in whatever Personally.
I asked them okay, well, why?
And then they'll say they'llgive their why And they're like
well, how does this affect me ifI'm somebody who works in
public work?
So if I'm a garbage person?
Steve Morreale (16:02):
why should I care?
Obed Magny (16:03):
about this particular subject?
Who's?
Steve Morreale (16:04):
going to care?
Exactly Who's going to care?
My question too.
Obed Magny (16:08):
Exactly So you get and then that's where you get
them to think more globallyabout.
Well, you know what Thisaffects, this which could affect
you this way, and you know.
So we're talking to.
Steve Morreale (16:17):
Dr Obed Meghney.
He's in Las Vegas today.
Obed is a Bostonian who is nowout in Vegas and doing a number
of facilitating and consultingwork with police agencies and
other agencies, and we came uponeach other because of his work
with American Society ofEvidence-Based Policing.
Let's talk about the issue ofrace in policing.
Is it really as bad as itseemed?
(16:38):
Are all police officers racist?
Are all agencies racist?
How do we deal with implicitbias and all of the things that
are going on that are tearingour society apart?
What's your take?
And what people may not know isthat you are a man of color,
and a handsome man of color, imight say.
Obed Magny (16:59):
That is the most important part, the handsome
part, but talk about that fromyour perspective.
Steve Morreale (17:05):
And being a police officer, a man of color,
that had to change the view ofsome people about you
inappropriately, but you'velived it.
You have a lived experiencethat this guy doesn't have, so
talk about that.
Obed Magny (17:16):
So you just literally gave me like 200
dissertation topics aloneThere's so many levels, so many
peers to that question Is everysingle police officer racist and
every single agency racer is?
obviously not.
Is there racism in policing?
Absolutely.
Anybody who says that thereisn't is lying to you, or they
put in their head in the sandand they're like I don't want to
know what's going on in reallife.
So let's make sure we put thatout in the open first.
(17:38):
The second part of this andthis is one of the reasons why I
got involved with research andissues of race and so on, when
we talk about trust andlegitimacy, let me ask you a
question.
Let's say you call Verizonbecause your phone's not working
and you call customer serviceand say, hey, you know what I'm
having this issue.
Or let's just say you go to thestore, your local store or
whatever.
They take care of your phone.
Everything's cool.
(17:58):
What's the first thing thathappens when you walk out the
store, or before you walk outthe store, when somebody talks
to you, they ask you Hey, wouldyou be willing to do a survey
real quick to find out what itlooks like So they'll be
treating you right, etc.
Etc.
It doesn't matter if Angie'slive or any other service that
you take a part of where you'relooking for service.
They're always saying, hey,what did we do?
Well, if you didn't fulfill ourrequirement, hey, what could we
(18:20):
have done better?
When we have issues related torace in the country and policing
, far too often leaders andpolicing ignore those
disenfranchised groups or atleast give the optics that
they're not paying attention tothem.
And then it gets to the pointwhere, when something blows up,
oh hey, we need to connect withthe community.
Well, that's not how youpublish trust.
You don't wait for a crisis.
Steve Morreale (18:42):
The relationship should be initiated before, not
after the after a problemCorrect.
Obed Magny (18:47):
Correct And I know we're going to get into this
when we talk about the 54thmalpolition project, because
that's directly tied to what youjust asked.
You put in the sweat equity onthe front end so that when
something does inevitably happen, that trust is there to help
you manage through the crisis.
It's no different than ifyou're in a relationship with a
spouse or with a loved one.
When something goes awry, youdon't just say screw you, i'm
(19:09):
just going to pretend like Idon't know you anymore and just
go about your life.
That's not how that works.
If you're with your spouse andyou guys have a fight about
whatever or a blow up aboutwhatever, you work through that
for a better outcome so that youcan avoid that situation on the
back end.
And far too often in policing wedon't pay enough attention to
disenfranchised groups, blackfolks in particular, black
communities in particular inthis country, and we tend to
(19:30):
over-police.
We're not working inpartnership with them And that's
what leads to a lot of distrust.
And we all know about the waron drugs where we tried that
public safety approach.
Steve Morreale (19:38):
I'm an ODA agent so I know and I know the crack
issue.
I do very well.
Obed Magny (19:42):
Right And we know what that led to.
Steve Morreale (19:43):
It led to the break up of the black family.
Obed Magny (19:46):
We know that And people are like we don't trust
the police And somebody who'sworked in investigations like
yourself.
how do you get calm solved?
You got to have cooperation.
You could be community.
So if a community doesn't trustyou, you don't have a
partnership there.
That's going to be a hindrance.
That's how I want to addressthat, answer the question that
way.
And so when we talk aboutcustom legitimacy, it has to be
done on the front end, and I'mgoing to use the words of a wise
friend of mine.
He said building trust is likebuilding a sand castle one grain
(20:10):
at a time And it takes forever.
Anybody who thinks you just doa couple of cops with coffee
events and that's going toestablish some trust, you are
sadly mistaken.
It is a process, a process thatcan take years And it's not
going to be done with a couple,but you're not going to do it
with just a special event orsomething I understand?
Yeah, it's done when the camerasare not there.
It's done when nobody'swatching.
(20:31):
It's done behind the scene.
If you being at a local eventthat's not advertised and you're
with a group of people who younormally would not hang out
during the walk from someone inMontgomery, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa.
okay, let's slow down.
Let's slow down because thatnobody knows about that.
Steve Morreale (20:44):
Let's set the table.
You and a few colleaguesdecided to walk the same walk
that others had before you fromSelma to Montgomery, alabama 54
miles, is that correct?
And you did that with how manypeople?
There's two of my colleagues,okay, dr.
Obed Magny (20:59):
Shaw, i know, i know , I know Madison Dr was a Dr DD.
Yes, yes, wisconsin Chief, andmy other colleague, Assistant
Chief Tark McGuire and ArleneKonsek Okay, how did you get to
know each other?
So we were all lead scholars,shaw and Tark.
For those who listen, the leadscholars program is a three-year
commitment, so you go acrossthe country, you participate in
research panel presentations,all those things obviously
(21:20):
advancing research, data scienceand research and policing.
And so we were all lead scholarsat the same time, And so I was
the young guy coming in whenSean and Tark were done with
their third year, And during ourtalk we talked a lot about how
can we help improve policing,especially when we talk about
issues of race, trust andlegitimacy, And Tark came up
with the idea.
(21:41):
He said Hey, you know what?
as a metaphor, we've got tobuild bridges.
This is what we have to do.
So when you think about abridge, you're connecting two
opposite ends of a roadway overus, right right right, just a
path to meet in the middle, andwe've got to help establish that
.
We decided to take it uponourselves, since we all had a
platform, individually andcollectively, to retrace the
(22:01):
steps of the civil rightsmovement in 1960.
And so this wasn't like aprotest march or anything.
It was just we wanted to bringto life as a beginning to
creating a solution to a problemthat was, i mean, it's hurting
America, right?
So what happened in 2020, we'veseen what happened in Ferguson,
i mean in so long, and wewanted to do the best that we
could to prevent anotherFerguson or another Minneapolis
(22:23):
and so on.
Tark came up with the idea ofbridges and Sean and I were like
, yeah, you know what, i kind ofliked that idea.
That's, that's especially whatwe're doing, and what better way
to start this project than togo down to Selma, alabama, and
walk 54 miles just to raise theawareness?
And we did this with adocumentary filmmaker, so he's
done the whole walk and part ofa documentary.
That's part of a curriculumthat we're building right now
(22:46):
belief executives and helpsolving that problem of how do
we establish and sustain trustin the community.
Right, this is not a.
There's no destination when itcomes to trust, it's always
going to be a work in progress.
I think people forget that.
They think that there's somemagic number you hit and then,
oh, we're done.
Steve Morreale (23:01):
We're done?
Far from it I know, It's neverone and done is it.
Obed Magny (23:06):
No, that's the thing You think about working out,
right?
So I'm going to go off on asmall change.
That's okay If you're, if youhave the perfect and weak.
If there's somebody who worksout and you got the perfect
disease, do you stop working outbecause you have the perfect
disease?
Absolutely not.
You maintain it.
It would just be irresponsibleto say, oh, we've reached a
certain point, now we're goingto have to talk to you or deal
with you anymore.
That's not how that works.
(23:26):
Again, we wanted to createsomething that would outlive the
three of us And for generationsand generations to follow.
There'd be a template in placethat people can follow, people
in leadership and policing tofollow, to help maintain and
sustain that trust andlegitimacy team.
So we did this walk.
It took us about two and a halfdays.
It's the beginning.
It's not the end Cause we cango back to the 54th mile.
(23:46):
There was technically an endfor the physical walk, but it's
the beginning and we're going touse different parts of the walk
in the curriculum to talk aboutdifferent issues.
So we're talking about race andpolicing.
We're talking about emotionalintelligence and other
historical concepts of America.
I guess you could say thenegative history between the
police and the black communities, and we already know about
(24:07):
bloody Sunday.
What do all of these thingsmean And how do we use all of
these examples here today,moving forward and solving a lot
of these, a lot of these issues?
Steve Morreale (24:15):
Well, we're talking a little bit Magni and
he is in Las Vegas and we'rejust beginning to talk about the
54 miles and a documentary Isit available?
Obed Magny (24:25):
Not yet.
It's not up for publicconsumption as of yet.
Again, the thing is is that forus, if this is going back to
what we talked about with thepurpose, right?
We didn't want to create a filmand then put it on Hulu or
Netflix And everybody watches it.
Oh, this is a great film,that's great, and then everybody
forgets about it.
Yeah, no, no, no.
Steve Morreale (24:41):
In other words, you want that to be the starting
point to curriculum and tothinking and all that.
Well, you know, it's interestingbecause I've talked to so many
people on the podcast and one ofthem indicated was Bill Bratton
, who said police have tounderstand the history of their
agency because police weremisused in the past and
grandparents or grand greatgrandparents were harassed and
sometimes beaten by police Andthey hold that historical
(25:05):
perspective and that seepsthrough a family Right.
It really does, and so we haveto understand what our
predecessors did to othersoppressed, and then help build
the bridges that you're talkingabout to say I'm not that way, i
don't want to be that way.
I want to understand your livedexperience, i want to listen to
you, i want you to listen to me, i want us to better understand
(25:26):
each other.
But that's a really difficultthing.
Obed Magny (25:29):
You have to start somewhere, but that's tough to
do It is, and one of the thingsthat we do not just three of us,
but you look at the greatleaders in this world Love is
one of the things that comes up,because they've got love for
their people.
Dr Cornel West said you can'tleave the people unless you love
the people.
And so if you're going toestablish a relationship one
especially that parade with thecommunity, yes, you're going to
(25:50):
have to come out and say youknow what?
we were not perfect.
We get to really trouble things.
We're not going to shy awayfrom that.
Here we are falling on thesword, moving forward.
Let's do the best that we canto right the wrongs, moving
forward, and let's solve thisproblem together.
You're absolutely right, that'svery, very difficult, but
that's part of the process.
People think this is easy.
(26:10):
Oh you need to just show up oneday and talk to a couple of
community members clergy andeverything will be fine.
It's like no, a lot of thiswork is going to be very, very
uncomfortable.
It has to be uncomfortable, ican tell you right now, even
with personal experiences.
I've got a couple of friendsthat I had fallen short into
things with them And I have tocall and say yes, that was 100%
on me, i screwed up, this is myfault, i don't make any bones
(26:33):
about it.
It's very uncomfortable.
But the feeling you have on theback end is like OK, now that
we've acknowledged the skeletonsin the closet or the elephant
in the room, what do we have todo to move forward?
It's like we can mend thesesenses Like hey, we're all going
to have that car with somesurgery, it's going to always be
there.
Let's cover it up, let me knowand move forward, because you
can't move forward unlessthere's feeling, and you can't
have feeling until you have thatuncomfortable, crucial
(26:55):
conversation.
Steve Morreale (26:56):
Yeah, that's extremely important to
understand And I think I camefrom a pretty white neighborhood
and school.
I was raised in the 60s and 70sand my time in the military is
when I realized that it reallydidn't matter color someone's
skin or what their religion was,because our mission was to
protect each other.
We're in uniform no differentthan policing but we're in
uniform.
It doesn't matter who you are,where you come from.
(27:18):
But I like Covey's piece andone of the principles Seek first
to understand and then beunderstood.
To me that's an extremely basicway to understand.
But I have to tell you in school, so many people who work as
faculty don't want to touch thethird rail, don't want to start
any trouble, don't want to openthings up, and I have to tell
you that's exactly where I feelthe most comfortable to say oh
(27:39):
bed, tell us how you feel aboutpolicing, tell us the experience
that you have.
Help us understand you or yourfamily and what your perspective
is.
It's the only way we're goingto understand.
And some would say you know,don't, don't call me out just
because I'm a black man.
I'm not doing that.
I'm trying to help everybodyunderstand what we've all gone
through so that we can take ourfrigging blinders off and
(28:00):
understand each other.
And you're shaking your head.
I don't.
Again, this is touchy stuff,but I think it's so important to
talk about.
Obed Magny (28:05):
So the reason I'm shaking my head is I get that
it's touching stuff.
I'm very comfortable.
It's really comfortable in thestate for several reasons,
because there's a researchcomponent in this, there's a
real life component in this Andit's nuanced.
But it doesn't have to beaccusatory, it doesn't have to
have a negative connotation.
So here's what I'm going to do.
I always make it a point tomodel the hate.
I don't want to just be the guythat says, hey, do this,
(28:26):
because I said so.
You're going to see it happenAnd then you're going to say,
well, he's about that life, hedoes it.
So the uncomfortable peopleit's the stages that were like
hey, it's comfortable, whereeverybody can speak their truth
without judgment.
When it's established from thefront and people can feel
comfortable, you're going to bemuch better off than hey, we're
going to get together And thenwe're just going to put zero
(28:47):
context.
We'll just start.
Steve Morreale (28:48):
What happens is you have to set the ground rules
and you have to build a reportand you have to talk about
talking with a group And we haveto say here's what we're trying
to accomplish We're trying tounderstand each other better.
Obed Magny (28:58):
Correct.
And so, with emotionalintelligence, it's managing your
emotions as they happen to you,recognizing and managing the
emotions of others.
So I've had calls for servicewhere somebody would MS me up
and down for like 15 minutes andeverything.
In the back of my mind.
I'm like this person's hurtingand they just venting.
They just want to be hurt And Idon't see that threatening.
I just let them speak theirpeace, acknowledge their hurt
(29:19):
and then move forward from there, whereas somebody else may not
be aware of that business.
Like hey, this person's tryingto be threatening and then it
becomes a use of force or itbecomes a hands on situation, a
less than ideal situation, andso let's just put it out there.
We don't teach this stuff inpolicing enough.
We only do 3.21% worth ofinterpersonal skills in an
average six month account.
So out of 650 hours, we're onlyspending 20.
(29:41):
Now we all know that 99% of thework in policing, especially if
you're an officer, is you're inthe people business.
You're dealing with people whoare probably having a bad day,
and you should be equipped, justlike with handcuffs, a tongue
pepper spray.
You should be equipped withemotional intelligence skills to
deal with people who mightotherwise might poke a threat to
you, and really they're justventing and they're just talking
out loud.
There are some cultures wherepeople use their hands That's
(30:03):
not meant to be threatening.
There are some cultures wherenot making eye contact is a sign
of respect and not beingdeceiving.
So there's layers to this andknowing, learning and
understanding these things areimportant.
We don't do it enough inpolicing And that's why you see
a lot of issues.
Or you do see a lot of videoswhere some people, hey, why did
he take it Well, why did shetake it to the next level when
they didn't even warrant that?
But now you're gambling no punintended, because I'm invaded
(30:27):
With the hope that the person,the officer, the individual
officer or even the citizen orwhoever You know, you're hoping
that they understand, versus theyou know have the skills to
understand those dynamics.
So when you're in that room andit's established on the front
end like, hey, we're going tohave some uncomfortable
conversations, we know it'sgoing to happen.
Not meant to be personal, thisis part of the process.
(30:48):
This is the crucible that wehave to go through in order to
be better on the back end.
It's why the Marines do it,that's why there's hell
weakening, maybe field trainingand so on and so forth.
There has to be the crucible tounderstand collectively,
together, without judgment, andaddress the issues that got us
to this here, got us to thispoint in the first place, and
move forward.
No one is sitting here sayingHey see, this is your fault
(31:10):
specifically.
We have these issues here goingon tomorrow.
We know that wearing theuniform is a low hanging fruit,
because when you're wearinguniform you're wrapping
something government easy, easy,easy kicking.
So you have to understand.
You're just showing upbreathing in a uniform, whether
you're white, black, whoever,some people are going to feel a
certain type of way.
As only you understand that andyou're not taking that personal
, you're already in a muchbetter spot to deal with
(31:31):
whatever situation that you'redealing with.
So, we don't do it enough inpolicing.
There are many opportunitiesfor this.
that, unfortunately, might takeplace because there are some
people who are uncomfortablewith the fact that, hey, this is
going to be messy.
I've never had to deal withthis.
I would rather not deal with it, and this is one of the reasons
why the 54th Mount PolicingProject is going to address this
issue.
That's great.
Steve Morreale (31:52):
So we've been talking with Obed Magni Dr
Obedna Magni and is in Las Vegas.
He is an adjunct instructor, aformer Sacramento police officer
, very active as a lead scholarfor NIJ and active and actually
was one of founders of theAmerican society of
evidence-based policing, andwe've been talking about things
that relate to race and minorityand difference in cultures and
(32:14):
all of those kinds of things,and I don't mean to focus only
on the African American populace, but there's so many others,
especially out where you are, somany other minority populations
that we don't always understand.
Concern that I have is that,with policing, the answer in a
lot of ways is let's get themtraining.
Let's let them know aboutmental health.
(32:35):
Let's let them know aboutautism.
Let's let them know about theAsian culture.
Let's let them know It becomesoverwhelming to police to
constantly be told you need toknow this better.
It's beneficial for them.
You understand, but there is aresistance and a reluctance
because people I know I mean youwere a cop, i was a cop.
Don't tell me I'm racist.
I'm not saying that you'reracist.
I'm just wanting you tounderstand other people's
(32:57):
perspectives, whatever the wordmight be.
But what's your thought aboutthe receptivity that you get
from police departments when youare conducting trainings such
as emotional intelligence or theknowledge of other people.
What's out there?
What are you doing?
What are you seeing?
How is it being?
Obed Magny (33:14):
received Number one.
When we talk about, let's justsay, diversity, equity and
inclusion, dei, everyoneautomatically defaults to What
are we talking about?
Black and white?
And no, we're not talking aboutblack and white.
I let them know right out thegate.
It goes beyond that.
So, yes, there's black, white,different races and so on, but
there's the diversity of thought, which means religion.
Are you conservative, liberal,libertarian?
(33:36):
no-part affiliation, are youLGBTQ Or are you not?
There are so many levels Andthis is one of the reasons why
you're seeing the issues withrecruiting and retention and
policing.
The generation of yesterdaythat put in their 30 years maybe
got treated like trash, butthey knew they were going to get
their attention moved toMontana shot off to.
Montana I've never been there.
I've been here, it's beautiful,i'll get there someday, and
(33:58):
they're happy ever after.
Today's generation is notinterested in that.
Today's generation wants to berespected.
They want to be givenopportunities to succeed, they
want to be given autonomy, theywant to be challenged in a way
that makes them better at theirjob in their certain field field
.
They want to be respected andseen as an individual and not as
a bad member, because we'venever had that kind of culture
(34:19):
in policing, nor have we had thetraining to change the culture
like that institution-wide.
You have this gap where I mightsay, oh bad, mad me, i want to
be a police officer.
So let me go talk to this guy,steve Morelle, because I heard
he was working over here at AcmePolice Department, and I go
over and I talk to Steve Steve,hey, now I want to be a police
officer.
Is Acme a good place to work in?
If you say, man, don't comehere.
(34:40):
Man, this place is It sucks,you have If you talk on Yeah,
and so don't even come here.
So if I, as a recruit, going togo work for Acme, the answer is
no.
Second part to that And I'mglad you asked that question
because again, all this isrelated to the retention issues
that we have going on inpolicing right now.
I'm going to give you aspecific story about two people.
I'm not going to mention whattheir agencies are, but they're
(35:01):
both on the East Coast.
I know two individuals withdoctorate degrees who are now
finalists for chief jobs acrossthe country Again not going to
say where because of the valuethat they bring, their
respective organizations haveignored them, have not given
them the opportunity to succeed.
So those of the audience whoare in a position to hire and
recruit I want you guys tolisten to me very, very
carefully.
Those two stories are notunique.
(35:22):
I know people who have been inother agencies.
Smaller agencies who have valuein their organizations, ignored
them And now they're at anotheragency with a billion dollar
budget and they're absolutelythriving In many respects.
There's a lot of pockets aroundthe country where people say hey
, you know what The thing aboutthe progressive?
you have to be an officer, youhave your sergeant, you have to
(35:42):
be a lieutenant, you have towork in these units.
People are starting to say wedon't even see the value in that
.
If somebody at an officer levelor somebody at a sergeant level
just use those two land fedexamples, if they can come in
here in a leadership positionand provide value to the
organization, can we get youhere yesterday?
This is starting to happenright now in this retention
recruiting war, if you want tocall it that, maybe in a big
(36:05):
band of college sports.
This is where we're at.
And so when you have today'sgeneration saying, hey, i have
value that I can bring to yourorganization and the
organization says, yes, schoolyear values, we don't care about
that.
What you need to do is hit thestreets because these calls are
pending.
When that happens, that employeetoday's generation, the
millennials, the Gen X, the Y,the Alpha they're like oh, i'll
(36:27):
tell you what.
Check this out.
Here's my resignation paper.
I'm out of here five.
And so that's the risk.
You got the generational riffof the old guard wrestling with
the new guard, where the newguard is saying we don't care,
not to say that they don't careabout money.
Money's obviously important.
If you're being paid yourmarket worth, you're good Cause.
We all know in the Bay Area,people are like astonished when
they hear what they're paying$170,000 a year.
(36:49):
I'm like, if you're in the SanFrancisco area, $170,000 a year
is like not even a job for thebucket.
Now, if you're in Wyoming orsomething, but that's the
picture.
So, going back to your originalquestion with the DEI part, or
what I'm saying in thesetrainings is there's literally a
lack of recognition of thetalent that people have in their
own organization And you justhave other agencies who are
(37:11):
savvy enough, just over here,coaching, just coaching.
And so if you're a leader of anorganization, you're a police
chief, even if you're alieutenant, doesn't even matter.
If you're mid-level manager, ifyou've got somebody who's got
talent and you're not overtlywant to make sure you guys
listen to the cards that arecoming out of my mouth Or partly
trying to cultivate and makesure that person is in the best
position to succeed, not justfrom their own right but for the
(37:33):
organization standpoint.
You are literally the problemin this retention issue.
So if you've got somebody inyour department who's got a lot
of greed and they pass the barand there's no work of patrol
and there's no in-house counsel,or you haven't created that
position, even if it's anauxiliary position, you're going
to be going to fall behind.
Steve Morreale (37:50):
Yeah, you're underutilizing a person's talent
And I think it's identifying.
That's a really important thing.
Identifying leadershippotential is extremely important
And I think that for so manyleaders and I do, so much
training at your job one of myfavorite sayings now is
leadership, it's all on you, butit's not about you, it's about
your people.
It's about developing others.
(38:10):
It's about developing andsustaining the organization by
creating opportunities to tapinto the intellectual curiosity
people have And let them come upwith ideas on how to improve
the organization, how to improveservice delivery, how to
improve relationships.
That's extremely important.
What say you?
And the research is?
Obed Magny (38:30):
overwhelming.
I'm telling you anecdotallythere's a frontline supervisor
and an officer who are finalistsfor chief jobs across the
country because theirorganization is like ah,
whatever, you're not going to goanywhere.
Again, this is the old gardenmentality of oh, you should just
be happy to have a job,meanwhile you're hand-wrenching
on the back end.
So to your point.
The research is overwhelminglysupportive of this.
And if you recognize youremployees, if you give them the
(38:53):
ability to achieve, if yourecognize the work that they do,
you put them in a positionwhere they're able to do the job
itself and not mess with it,and you're there as a mentor to
help guide.
At the end of the day, it's allabout relationships.
Nobody's going to say man, youknow what I love about Steve
Morelle?
I love Steve Morelle becausethat man knew policy procedure
better than anybody else.
No one is going to trip overthe phone to get to work early
(39:15):
because they know that you'regoing to talk about policies and
procedures.
That's the expectation.
The expectation is you're goingto know that stuff at a
baseline level.
You're going to expect thatyour supervisor treats you with
respect and dignity If you're inan organization or if the
culture of the organization doesnot see you and does not
recognize you.
You're already failed And theresearch is.
(39:35):
And again, these are not mywords, i mean, i'm just putting
my own spin on it, but theresearch on this is, again,
overwhelming, it's voluminous.
And so you got to say toyourself at the end of the day,
it's all about relationships, soyou could put someone in a
position who can connect withothers And this is going back to
the emotional intelligencepiece right, and you're
connecting with others and youunderstand people.
That's how trust is created andsustained.
The IQ part that can come late.
(39:56):
Learning the technical aspectsof the job that can come later.
That's not the most importantpart.
Relationships are always, atthe end of the day, the most
important.
Steve Morreale (40:04):
Well, you know I'm thinking about this.
I think there are some peoplewho would listen to this podcast
and listen to you, and I knowyou and I, or the people that we
have a tendency to gravitate toAnd those are the people who
have promised.
Those are the people who havenew ideas, who challenge the
system, who question them, andsome people get aggravated when
(40:24):
we ask questions Well, why do wedo it this way?
And what about that?
Have you thought about this?
They see those people like me,or like you at times, as a
threat, as opposed to sayingthese are people with promise,
let's listen.
That's that protectionism ofmany people who are in positions
of power and policing, who wantto keep it very close to the
vest because they want to retaintheir job and they don't want
(40:46):
to let anybody else in.
I'm seeing you shake your head,but I think that day has come
and has to go where you realizeand utilize the people for the
benefit of the organization.
Obed Magny (40:57):
This is why I'm such a proponent of coaching and
policing, that what you justshared is always at the
forefront.
If you were a potential clientand you said, hey, listen, i'm
running this organization andwe're following short agency
through XYZ, and so I'm sayingto you okay, before I take you
on as a client, i want to know alittle bit about you and what
you're looking forward, what youwant to accomplish, et cetera,
(41:17):
et cetera.
So I'm going to ask let's justmake up a scenario right now.
So let's say that yourprotectionism is there's some
people in the organization thathave a skill set related to law,
and we'll just say psychology.
So I'm asking you it's ChiefMorelle.
You have a recruiting orretention problem and we've
identified that some of it hasto do with you not recognizing
your employees.
What would it look like if youwere fully staffed?
You would say, oh man, it'd begreat.
(41:39):
How would that help you begreat?
Well, i wouldn't spend as muchtime working on this budget, i
wouldn't be spending as muchtime on scheduling, et cetera.
Okay, but all that free time,what would that help you
accomplish?
Oh well, maybe I can spend moretime with community members and
attend more meetings.
So when we literally write thisout, it becomes a hey, wait a
minute, me helping them.
It's going to make them looklike a superstar.
(42:00):
And it makes me look like asuperstar because now my city
council is like, hey, wait aminute, now we can do ABCXYZ.
Bellevue, nebraska.
Chief Clary shout out to.
Chief Clary does not have arecruiting or retention problem.
He's fully staffed.
In fact, he's looking to addmore FTE positions.
He's a big lead and he's a leadscholar, because of the same
things that we're talking abouthere on this podcast.
He's just one of those guys whojust goes out there and just
(42:22):
does it.
He literally says, okay, whoare my best people in what?
And who's got skills?
Who in my department has askill set that is unorthodox,
and how can we utilize that tohelp you?
So what happens is when peoplesay, hey, you know what?
Tell me about that organization.
If your average frontlineemployee is like man, this was
the best place on earth to carryon.
If you got a skill set, they'regoing to want you to do ABCXYZ.
The military does this.
(42:43):
Yes, they do.
The military already does this.
You got a skill set andsomething Oh, invasive training.
That's the lead.
We're going to put you in thatposition, whether it's line
drones or IT, whatever that is.
We're going to put you in thatposition of all, and that's
something that we've got to movetowards in policing, and if you
don't, we're going to fallbehind.
This is why, again, i willO'Bertley say that you cannot be
a leader in policing and nothave a coach.
Yes, you have to pay money topull a coach, but to return on
(43:05):
investment Again, these are notmy words, we're looking up on
your own The return oninvestment is somewhere like a
hundred, whatever it is that youspend on the fun if you get
quadrupled on the back end.
So that is from a fiscalstandpoint, from an operational
standpoint, whether it's from aleadership vacuum standpoint
succession planning, recruiting,retention, all of these things.
This is a normal thing in theprivate sector.
(43:26):
It is normal, yes, it is Normal.
Mid-level managers, all therest of the CEOs, everybody's
got a coach.
And if you want to trust theadvisor, coaching is the
proactive side.
The trusted advisor is on thereactive side.
So again, you said it earlierin the podcast in policing we're
talking about public safety,we're talking about why, being
in the balance, officer safetyand public safety, and so on and
(43:49):
so forth.
If there's a crisis that takesplace or something that's up for
it, do you have someone who'sobjective, somebody who's got no
agenda, who can give you somesound advice, but somebody who
knows enough about the game I'mtalking about policing right To
give you some sound advice andsay, hey, let's look at this
holistically.
Here's some of the pros, here'ssome of the cons.
You know, if you go in thisroute, these things can happen.
If you go in this route, thesethings can happen.
(44:09):
I think, based on my experience, training, you know me working
in not just operations but ageand professional standards,
working in policies, and Iworked on our union for three
years, so I've seen what Lathanlooked like inside and out and
all the work that I'm doing withthe federal level.
You know, just, do you havesomebody who can give you that
advice?
And it's almost criminal and Idon't think that word might be,
but it's almost criminal thatthe overwhelming majority of
(44:31):
leaders don't even have atrusted advisor.
So that's something that I'malso pushing for and advocating.
Steve Morreale (44:36):
I think that's important And part of what your
role is, and when I've beencalled into coach police chiefs,
i find that one of the thingsthat you're doing.
Let me say this in a lot ofways and this is gonna ruffle
some feathers at perhaps it islike going to a psychiatrist or
a psychologist who is nevergoing to give you the answer but
is always gonna ask thequestions.
(44:56):
And it's when you ask thosepointed questions that people
reflect and sometimes get caught.
Sure, well, i've never reallythought of it.
Okay, well, why don't you thinkabout that?
Why don't we reconvene the nexttime?
Tell me what you're thinkingabout.
So sometimes what you're doingis leading through questions,
leading the thoughts throughquestions, And I think that's
really important.
It's not something that policechiefs, police deputy chiefs,
(45:17):
should be afraid of but shouldbe looking for, so that they are
not looking for sage advicefrom within the organization but
from outside the organizationGo ahead.
Obed Magny (45:26):
The first pillar of emotional intelligence is
self-awareness.
The first thing we talked aboutwith the 54th mile policing
project is that journey ofself-discovery.
Giving you the answer, yeah,that'd be one thing, but have
you thought it through?
Have you looked at the pros andcons?
Maybe there's some biases thatyou may not be aware of.
And how does that come out?
It comes out through a coachingprocess or through the trust
and advisor process.
It's gonna vary from agency toagency.
(45:48):
You might have one agency wherethe issues might have to do
with the mid-level management.
You might have another issue,another agency, where the issues
really would have to do morewith equipment or with a game
mode.
I'm sorry, i mean one agencythat I know of.
This is why it's so importantto have stay interviews, and I
don't know if the audience arefamiliar with stay interviews,
but everybody does an exitinterview right.
And this exit interview,inherently it might just be bad.
Steve Morreale (46:08):
It's too late.
It's kinda too late.
Obed Magny (46:10):
Right, you wait until it's too late to ask a
question.
Why would you not look into itbefore it becomes an issue?
This is the reason why you goevery year to the doctor for
your physical to get a checkup.
You don't wait until you're onyour deathbed.
It doesn't make any sense.
So this is why, again, yeah,when you're doing surveys within
your organization, find outwhat those issues are.
Take care of the first two,three, four, five.
we'll hang in fruit, because itshows that you're interested in
(46:31):
solving the problem.
Versus oh, we just do a surveywith the city every year and
then we gather this data andthen we take this sheet and we
hold up the table that's wobblyat the bottom and we use that
sheet to take care of that.
You can't do that.
That's why we have again theissue that we have right now
with concluding retention.
People are not even seeing theinstitution of policing as
legitimate as a career option,and a lot of that has to do with
what we're talking about righthere.
Steve Morreale (46:51):
A lot of work to be done is what you're saying,
and I think the whole work thatyou're doing with evidence-based
policing and pushing thatagenda and that idea, the idea
of needing coaching, doingconsulting, is really important.
One thing I'm gonna do, obed,is I'm gonna teach you how to
pronounce my name.
It is Steve Morielli.
(47:11):
Morielli, moria, moriale is theItalian way.
It doesn't matter to me whatyou call me.
Intro (47:16):
As long as you call me Steve, i'm okay.
Steve Morreale (47:19):
But I don't want you to be saying my name wrong
all across the country andeverywhere you go.
But listen as I wind downbecause we're coming up just at
the end of our session.
I wanna say that when I askedyou to come on, you never know
what's gonna happen in aconversation, but you are an
innovative guy, you are aknowledgeable guy And you are
one who has taken yourexperiences and are willing to
(47:42):
share them with others, and youshould be very proud of that.
I mean that It is an absolutepleasure to talk with you, and
what I want you to do at the endhere is that you have the last
word.
The people who are listening arefrom all over the world.
In many cases, there's so manypeople who are listening from
New Zealand and from Australiaand from Ireland and from the UK
and, obviously, canada and theUnited States, but as people who
(48:06):
are looking to improve policeagencies, what is your starting
advice?
How do you begin to look atyour agency, not day to day, but
longer term?
Tell the audience some of thethings that they should begin to
think about.
Obed Magny (48:21):
The number one.
Before you even go anywhere,the number one thing you have to
remember is what is the purposeof the accomplishment that
you're looking for.
Know what your why is.
Know what it is that you wannado.
Know for a fact that I wannaimprove policing through this
avenue.
Once you've got that figuredout and I'm not saying it's
(48:41):
gonna be a cakewalk, but itbecomes much easier to reach
that accomplishment, even as theAmerican Society of Evidence
and Police and God Off theGround I mean, when I saw you
there were more valleys thanpeaks.
This is the norm of life.
Nothing's ever gonna be easy.
You're always gonna havebarriers, but understand that
you don't have to do it byyourself.
There are other people who willprobably do the same thing that
you're doing and you need toconnect with them.
(49:02):
That's why it's important toconnect with organizations like
the American Society of Evidenceand Police.
Get connected with the 54thMount Policing Project, because
we're gonna have stuff comingout with that too The National
Policing Institute.
There are other people in thisspace.
It doesn't matter if you're aresearcher, a community member,
clergy, police officer, policechief, somebody who works in
public safety, campus security,private security.
(49:22):
There is literally a space foreverybody to be a part of the
solution.
There is no over-saceration inone respect or another respect.
We know that researchers arevery good at punching numbers
and doing all that kind of stuff, but there's some nuances in
the actual application inpolicing that they may not be
aware of and they need topartner with a practitioner who
(49:43):
can talk to them.
Show them, for example, thoseno-gifts and movies where they
jump in sideways and shootpeople in the pinky.
That's not real life.
That doesn't happen, that's amovie.
And then there's the otheraspect.
There's some things that caninform policing and better ways
of policing, increasing publicsafety and officer safety.
That's backed by research.
So that's why partnerships arevery, very important.
Whatever it is that you want todo, whatever avenue you wanna
(50:05):
get into, you don't have to dealby yourself.
Find the why first, and thenpartner with others who are
like-minded.
So, and when you startconnecting and networking, going
to these conferences, you'llstart realizing oh, there are
better ways I can approach thisperspective or that perspective.
Hire a coach, somebody whomight be able to help you
individually navigate thesewaters.
That's what a lot of people do,especially in business who
(50:26):
wanna be successful.
They hire somebody who knowswhat it is that needs to be done
and what that normal equationlooks like, and you want
somebody to help guide youthrough that process.
Steve Morreale (50:34):
Part of what we're talking about is that you
really have to take a step backand then take the first step.
It requires a lot ofself-reflection and that's
really very, very important.
Sometimes I've walked into somany organizations and started
talking to people.
You'd ask a question and you'dget this blank look like I've
never been asked that question.
I've never thought of it thatway.
So it's very valuable forsomebody who's been around to be
(50:54):
able to come in and pose somequestions and to get you
thinking in a differentdimension, which can be very
valuable both to you and to theorganization.
And I think we all have torealize we can't do it And there
is the line That's where acoach comes in or that's where a
consultant comes in, that'swhere training comes in, that's
where a facilitation or a focusgroup comes in can be very
valuable.
So, obed, thank you for hangingin there with me today.
Obed Magny (51:14):
Well, thank you, dr Morelli.
I apologize for butchering yourname.
You know what it is.
I just fell in the door, i justscrewed your name and butchered
your name, and for somebodywho's got a weird first name,
you think I'd know better.
So now I'm never gonna forgetMorelli, i'm gonna show the
Italian part.
Morelli, i just screwed that upagain.
That's what I'm working on thenext day.
Steve Morreale (51:35):
Oh, no, no, no, you can say it, it's closer than
it was before.
I've got Morelli in on it.
Don't worry, it doesn't matter,it doesn't matter.
You know who I am and you knowhow to reach me and I know how
to reach you.
But thank you for your time,for your energy.
I wish you the best of luck.
How can people reach you?
Obed Magny (51:49):
So on social media Twitter, instagram, tiktok at Dr
Obed Magni thatE-R-O-B-E-D-M-A-G-N-Y.
You can also email me at infoat magnileadershipcom or Obed at
magnileadershipcom.
I'm on LinkedIn, so I'm veryactive on LinkedIn.
So, yeah, you can reach out tome that way too.
Steve Morreale (52:11):
There's all kinds of ways, And when you just
put it Obed, there has to beonly a few that come up right.
Obed Magny (52:17):
There's a heavyweight boxer named Obed
Sullivan, i know that much, andthere's somebody who has the
same last name as the UFCfighter.
So there's only one of me,right?
So many of me, like you said,very few handsome brothers like
myself.
Yes, make sure we prepare.
Thanks for the greatconversation And I wish you the
best of luck.
Steve Morreale (52:36):
So, that's another episode of the Cop Doc
podcast.
I'm Steve Morielli coming toyou from Boston.
We just finished with ObedMagni And he's in Las Vegas, so
thank you so much for listening.
Appreciate you passing thepodcast on to friends if you get
anything out of it And let meknow if there's anything that
you wanna hear about or talkabout, or if you've got some
suggestions of people I shouldtalk to or making changes and
(52:56):
innovations in policing.
Thanks so much.
See you on the next episode.
Intro (53:00):
Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc podcast with Dr
Steve Morielli.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Western State
University.
Please tune into the Cop Docpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The cop doc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:24):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
Cop Doc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:32):
Well, hello again everybody.
Steve Morreale, coming to youfrom Boston, smoky Boston.
I was just saying because thesmoke is coming down from Canada
and the wildfires.
But I have someone on the otherside of the country, on the
Pacific time zone, D r.
Obed Magny, and he is in LasVegas today.
Obed, how are you?
I'm good man.
How are you doing, sir?
I'm fine.
(00:52):
Thank you so much for finallyconnecting.
We've been on the phone off andon.
I see some of the things thatyou've been doing.
I think one way that we trackothers, unfortunately in this
world now is with LinkedIn.
So I see some of the workyou've been doing.
I want to tell the listenersabout you.
I want you to tell us aboutyourself also, but I know that
you've been at this.
You're a former police officerfor many years in Sacramento.
(01:14):
You went back for a graduateand a doctoral credential and
you are now running Magnileadership and doing some work
in the policing field, right?
Obed Magny (01:22):
Yes, sir, that's pretty good Child's of heart,
Child's of heart right.
Steve Morreale (01:26):
Yes.
So I think what's important andI've talked to a number of your
colleagues many years ago andactually not so many years ago I
was speaking to a colleague theother day and I said, wow, when
I first broke in I wished theLEADS program was in place
because I would have applied ina heartbeat, but it was not.
It came after I started backfrom policing and into academia.
But you are a LEADS scholaralum And one of the things that
(01:49):
I know that you were involved inwas the development or the
establishment of the AmericanSociety of Evidence-Based
Policing.
So talk about your trajectory,how you ended up leaving the
police department, the kind ofwork you did there, and then
what you're doing now.
Obed Magny (02:03):
Yeah, let's see if I can make a five week story and
truncate it for you.
So when I was a police officeraround 2007, i decided to go and
get my master's degree.
Now, being a fellow Bostonianfor those of you in the audience
I went to UMass Boston, grew upin Dorchester, went to
Dorchester High So shout out toall my Boston peeps that are
listening to the show But afterI got my bachelor's degree from
(02:25):
UMass Boston, i swore that Iwould never go back home.
I had no interest in going tograduate school.
You couldn't pay me to go backto graduate school.
Something happened a policeofficer and there were some
things going on in the policeand professions that I loved And
I saw that there were room forimprovement in other areas.
So I decided to go back and getmy master's degree and got my
doctor's degree.
Now, as you were just talkingabout the trajectory, this was
(02:47):
kind of somewhat of anunorthodox trajectory because I
didn't even see this coming evenas I was going through this
journey.
My dissertation topic was onjob satisfaction in police
officers.
There were a couple of thingsthat I saw in policing related
to, obviously, with the economiccollapse of 08.
We saw that pension reform camedown the pike and all these
things that were just brand newto policing in general, and in
(03:08):
that space there were officerssaying you know what, i don't
think I want to do this jobanymore.
I think I'm going to get out.
There was this level ofdissatisfaction that was going
on And I remember specifically aparticular unit where
everything was harmonious,everything was great.
The leaders left that unit andanother leadership crew came in
and there was like a 90, 95%math exodus within a year And I
(03:30):
was like how does that happen?
That's how I got interested inthe whole job satisfaction,
morale and so on and so forth.
Steve Morreale (03:36):
What's causing the runaway, correct?
Obed Magny (03:39):
Correct, so I was seeing this firsthand and I was
seeing some of this in theresearch.
One of my colleagues, Dr.
Renee Mitchell, shout out toRenee Mitchell, yeah, I know She
was on the show a while back.
Yes, Yeah, and so you know,Renee and I worked together when
we were at SacPD and we wouldhave many conversations about
the opportunity for policing toimprove in many respects related
to research and so on.
And we all know that policingis one of those aircraft
(04:01):
carriers that when we talk aboutchange, it's going to take a
while for it to turn around.
It's not going to happen rightaway.
And one of the things about DrRenee Mitchell, myself and of
the like-minded folks is that wewere solutions-oriented.
So if we couldn't find thesolution or if we couldn't get
the solving of the problem donewithin our own respective
agencies because there wereother people who are like-minded
folks who worked for otherdepartments, we decided, you
(04:22):
know what?
let's go ahead and create theAmerican Society of
Evidence-Based Police.
Let's create an institutionthat's gonna advocate and push
for research being a foundation,because number one rule of
research is do you know, harm,and obviously, we don't want to
do any harm to the public, forthose of us who work in public
safety.
So that's kind of how itstarted.
So fast forward.
From there.
The LEED Scholars Program wasbirthed, the National Institute
(04:43):
of Justice, and I was fortunateenough to be one of the 10
people who are selected eachyear to be a LEED scholar, and
then it led into me being apolice official with the
National Police Institute and soon and so forth.
And now fast forward.
Here we are in 2023, the WhiteHouse has officially recognized
the American Society ofEvidence-Based Police as an
institution.
When you talk about policereforms, that should be looked
to as a leader to be in the partof that solution.
(05:04):
And I just want to share thispiece real quick.
It was a whole bunch of cops, awhole bunch of cops from around
the country saying, hey, we cando this better, what can we do
to solve the problem?
And we came together and againwe helped create the American
Society of Evidence-Based Policething.
And here we are, not even 10years out.
The office at the highest levelrecognizes us as being very
influential and being part ofthe solution and solving the
long-term issues that we have inpolice.
Steve Morreale (05:25):
As it should be.
I'm very happy to say that I'vebeen a member for a few years.
I kicked myself in the behindfor not showing up in Vegas this
particular year, because Ithink it's a wonderful
organization And I've beendealing with the Canadian
Society, the Australian Society,the Australian New Zealand
Society, and so it is somethingthat many people resist.
But it is extremely importantthat, much like evidence-based
(05:48):
medicine, that we doevidence-based policing, that we
have some proof.
And as a professor and I knowyou're an adjunct when you're
talking to students and peopleare uttering sometimes some
crazy thoughts, you say well,how can you prove that?
Tell me whether or not it'sanecdotal or it is actually
grounded in research and someempirical study.
(06:09):
It's ironic too your jobsatisfaction work that you did.
That's what I did.
I was doing transformationalleadership and whether
transformational leadershipstyles invoke better work ethic
and job satisfaction in mindmany, many years ago.
So there's some overlap there,which is terrific.
And so you're an author, you'rea writer, you're a researcher,
you're a facilitator and you'regoing around the country doing
(06:30):
all kinds of things.
Please don't take this wrong.
I don't think you will, but forthose of us who are academics,
that's what I would constituteboth of us right People who have
done the work and earn anacademic credential.
So not quite academic, but apractical academic, if you will.
So if that's the case, the lastperson I talked to was Jim
O'Keefe, and again is one ofthose guys, like you said.
(06:51):
That said, I never saw myself asearning a doctorate.
When school was over I was done.
I remember getting my master'sdegree and being on the police
department and realizing I don'twanna shake doors for the rest
of my life.
That's really what the turningpoint was.
And then I must tell you, ihate to say, that I got bored,
but I was looking to the future,like you were, i'm sure, and I
(07:12):
remember trying so hard to finda program And some people saying
to me, as they might've said toyou we're putting a cohort
together, we've already got acop.
I was a federal agent But Iknow in the back of my mind it
was always like I don't know ifI'm smart enough for this.
And I don't know if you had thatsame feeling at first, but
self-doubt.
It's not that we're not smart,by any means, but you think me,
(07:32):
the cop is gonna be going for adoctorate.
And then you sit in theclassroom and you realize I
could do this, is that?
Obed Magny (07:37):
I see you had shake your head, but talk about that.
I can tell you.
I remember this like it was 15minutes ago, my very first day.
Matt Powers was the professor,cal State, long Beach.
Shout out to my Cal State, longBeach folks.
I remember the first day I wassitting in this class and
everybody was doing theintroduction across the room and
he starts talking and I'm likeI do not belong here.
I am in way over my head.
(07:59):
This is I was a C averagestudent in high school.
I graduated undergrad with a2.01 GPA.
The joke that I like to tell isthat I majored in football and
track and field when I was atUMass, boston right, because I
had zero direction as far aslike where I wanted to go in
life.
But here I am, first day, and Ijust remember within those
first 15 minutes I was like I'ma fish out of water.
(08:20):
I definitely don't belong here.
And, to your point, as Icontinue those 50 classes and
everything, i was like you know,this is so bad and that's what
it's like, right, whenever youtry something new, it's just
awkward, it's clunky, it's likeI really believe should I be
here?
Like you said, there's selfdoubt and sometimes we think
about their self efficacy.
Right, if you have policeofficer, you're just.
That's the equivalent of a jock.
(08:40):
But you're just an officer.
That's smart stuff.
It's for other people, it's notfor you.
And you know that's what I'mgetting over Here.
I am 4.0 later with my mastersand then, when I was getting my
doctorate So I did it five yearsin a row between the masters
and the doctorate Finished mydissertation before the
coursework was over.
Now, if you had told me atUMass Boston I was gonna be
doing that, i would have beenlike there's no, not in this
(09:01):
lifetime or the next lifetime.
But you know what?
anything put your mind to itAnd I know it sounds corny, but
this is one of the things that Iknow we'll get into it today.
But purpose is everything, man.
If you have purpose in life, ifyou have purpose in what you're
doing, you're gonna be off tothe barriers, but you're just
gonna crash right through thosebarriers, making those things
happen.
Steve Morreale (09:18):
Yeah, that's a message.
Obed Magny (09:19):
And.
Steve Morreale (09:20):
I love what you're saying.
It's interesting.
there's two things that come tomind I just jotted down.
Number one is that I remembercalling a teacher who had kinda
got me through a couple of highschool classes, in some cases
with a D minus, and I'm ashamedto tell you so I should not be
sitting in a chair teachingothers.
But it took me a little whileto find myself and I remember
calling her, probably five yearsago, and I said to her Jean,
(09:42):
remember me?
Did I remember you?
Steve?
I just have to tell you thankyou for believing in me, for
letting me get out of your class.
I just finished my doctorate andI wanted to thank you and let
you know that whatever promiseyou saw in me I didn't see, but
ultimately it paid off And sothat's important, but that whole
idea of purpose that you justsaid and there's a reason that I
think we're talking about thisand for the listeners I don't
(10:03):
want them to shut down.
It's for people who areinterested in continuing to
learn, to be lifelong learners,which I think you and I are.
I remember talking to an oldboss probably two months ago,
and he was one of my favoritebosses and it's a story I tell
in many trainings, and that isthat he believed in me and he
basically pointed me in thedirection and let me go and let
(10:24):
me flourish and let me makethings happen.
He allowed me to use mycreative juices.
But I walked away from him.
He's 90 years old right now andwe were in his company with his
wife.
He drove from Charles to from Upnear Myrtle Beach to Charleston
to meet us with his wife and Iwent away and I came back and
they were talking and my wifeand he had sort of a shit eating
(10:44):
grin on their face and I saidwhat are you talking about?
And he said I just told Kathy,don't let Steve retire.
He has to have a purpose.
He has to have something to door he'll shrink or die on the
vine, and so that's exactlywhere I'm at.
I'm at the twilight of mycareer, but I still have so many
things I wanna do writing abook, doing training and doing
the podcast and your head isshaking.
(11:05):
You look like one of those dogsin the back of an old car.
But react to that Ovid.
Obed Magny (11:11):
It purposes everything, and you said
something about you being in thetwilight of your career.
We both know that infleasing.
unfortunately and I say thatwith a capital U unfortunately,
too many people in policing tietheir purpose, their life, into
the job and the job iseverything to them.
So when you retire, when yourcareer is over in policing, a
lot of people tend to put theiryou know what my life is over
(11:32):
too, and this is why suiciderates and alcoholism and other
vices are so high, especially inretirement, because there's a
loss of purpose.
And I want people to understandthat purpose is not fucking
infleasing in a specific role,it's not the end on be all, And
when I say purpose I'm talkingabout the bigger picture.
I didn't know that when I becamea police officer I was gonna
leave policing early to start myown consulting company, but
(11:53):
there's purpose behind that.
I do want to help theprofession and I'm so worried in
this position where I'm rightnow to make the greatest impact
possible, whether it'spresenting, whether it's
teaching, consulting, all ofthose things.
So it's not a bad thing or agood thing, it's just a
directional thing.
So when you talk about thetwilight of your career, that's
just one chapter ending andchapter two beginning, and then
(12:14):
there's the chapter three andthe chapter four and the chapter
five.
One of the things, one of thegrowth disservices that we do in
this profession, is that wedon't teach that and we don't
impart that in a lot of peoplewho are in the profession
whether you're police officer,federation, doesn't matter.
We don't do that.
We tie everything into the joband you are nothing without the
job.
And then if you happen to,let's say, you get fired or you
(12:34):
need medical, retire.
there's just some people whoare sitting around like, oh my
God, what am I gonna do for therest of my life?
The majority of the truth betold, one of the reasons why I
got my doctorate degree wasbecause that hit me.
I said to myself you know, thisisn't one of these nine to five.
I'm a banker, I'm just gonna goin and I know that at five I'm
getting off on time.
I get the weekends.
That's not how this works.
You and I both know there'sbeen many people who've been
(12:54):
hurt, unfortunately many who'vebeen killed.
But I said to myself if I evergot hurt, what would my
transition be Like?
Steve Morreale (12:59):
to fall back, yeah.
Obed Magny (13:00):
Right, and you know what truth be told, i would like
the word fall back.
Steve Morreale (13:03):
This is the first thing to me, This is not a
fall back.
yeah, you understand.
Obed Magny (13:06):
You're right And I know what you mean.
I know what you mean.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But this is like hey, if I'm nolonger a police officer today,
what am I doing?
What's next?
Well, i know that I, but for me, i know, i love to teach, i
love to mentor, i love to helpothers, i love to help
organizations thrive, and so on.
So I just started making it apoint in the event that that day
ever does come And I knew theday was gonna come I mean,
everybody's looking forward toretirement, but if that
(13:28):
retirement day ends up being theone sooner than expected, i'm
in a better place to put myselfto succeed.
And again, everybody's got adifferent path.
There is no one right way to dothis.
There are many, many, manyavenues that I'm not even, by
any structure of the imagination, saying to exactly what I did
and you'll get there.
I'm really got the impact.
Steve Morreale (13:45):
Well, you know, that's interesting too, because
it seems to me that when we wentback to school at a late age,
it was more meaningful to usbecause we had experience that
we could tie and apply to thelessons being given.
And again, i have a series ofstudents that I work with, some
of whom go know these four plusone programs.
And here you are today.
you're a senior, you're still asenior, you're going to start
(14:07):
your master's degree, but youhave no life experience, and so
it's much different.
It makes it a little easier,and I know that those students
learn from people who haveexperience, not just from me.
I think that's important.
So non-traditional students andbeing in class as a
non-traditional student isimportant.
But I want to ask this so manypeople will reach out to me and
say you know, steve, i'mthinking of working on my
(14:29):
doctorate, and so I'll actuallycall them and I'll say okay, why
?
What do you want to do with it?
If you are thinking that thedoctorate itself is going to
earn you a teaching position,you're woefully wrong because
there's not as many positionsavailable.
You can certainly become anadjunct.
You could do that with amaster's degree, but just
understand the time and energyit takes and the money it takes
(14:50):
to get a doctorate, and makesure that you understand why
you're doing it.
You're shaking your head.
your thoughts on that.
Obed Magny (14:55):
Absolutely.
I mean for those who are in theresearch world.
it is nothing to hear aboutstudents with their PhDs
fighting for five, six, sevenyears just to get on a tenor
track at a particular college oruniversity.
So, whether it's postdoc workor they're just trying to find a
university with an opening,there's definitely no shortage
of adjunct positions.
But we all know that the payfor adjunct is disrespectful.
(15:16):
I was just going to just saythat out loud.
And nobody goes to school forthree, four, five years right to
dissertation, to make minimumwage money.
And I'm just saying I got toput that out there.
If you're somebody who wants toget into academia and I think
you just said it brilliantly youare absolutely fooling yourself
.
If you think, oh, i got a PhD,i can just apply to any school I
want, it's like no, you've got500 people applying to this one
(15:37):
open position.
What sets you apart from thenext person?
And so that's somebody whopeople just going into that
phase.
That's just something to bemindful of.
But again, when we talk aboutthat purpose, i've stopped on
many dissertation committees andthe very first question I asked
is that right there, somebody?
Intro (15:51):
says hey.
Obed Magny (15:51):
I wanted to research in whatever Personally.
I asked them okay, well, why?
And then they'll say they'llgive their why And they're like
well, how does this affect me ifI'm somebody who works in
public work?
So if I'm a garbage person?
Steve Morreale (16:02):
why should I care?
Obed Magny (16:03):
about this particular subject?
Who's?
Steve Morreale (16:04):
going to care?
Exactly Who's going to care?
My question too.
Obed Magny (16:08):
Exactly So you get and then that's where you get
them to think more globallyabout.
Well, you know what Thisaffects, this which could affect
you this way, and you know.
So we're talking to.
Steve Morreale (16:17):
Dr Obed Meghney.
He's in Las Vegas today.
Obed is a Bostonian who is nowout in Vegas and doing a number
of facilitating and consultingwork with police agencies and
other agencies, and we came uponeach other because of his work
with American Society ofEvidence-Based Policing.
Let's talk about the issue ofrace in policing.
Is it really as bad as itseemed?
(16:38):
Are all police officers racist?
Are all agencies racist?
How do we deal with implicitbias and all of the things that
are going on that are tearingour society apart?
What's your take?
And what people may not know isthat you are a man of color,
and a handsome man of color, imight say.
Obed Magny (16:59):
That is the most important part, the handsome
part, but talk about that fromyour perspective.
Steve Morreale (17:05):
And being a police officer, a man of color,
that had to change the view ofsome people about you
inappropriately, but you'velived it.
You have a lived experiencethat this guy doesn't have, so
talk about that.
Obed Magny (17:16):
So you just literally gave me like 200
dissertation topics aloneThere's so many levels, so many
peers to that question Is everysingle police officer racist and
every single agency racer is?
obviously not.
Is there racism in policing?
Absolutely.
Anybody who says that thereisn't is lying to you, or they
put in their head in the sandand they're like I don't want to
know what's going on in reallife.
So let's make sure we put thatout in the open first.
(17:38):
The second part of this andthis is one of the reasons why I
got involved with research andissues of race and so on, when
we talk about trust andlegitimacy, let me ask you a
question.
Let's say you call Verizonbecause your phone's not working
and you call customer serviceand say, hey, you know what I'm
having this issue.
Or let's just say you go to thestore, your local store or
whatever.
They take care of your phone.
Everything's cool.
(17:58):
What's the first thing thathappens when you walk out the
store, or before you walk outthe store, when somebody talks
to you, they ask you Hey, wouldyou be willing to do a survey
real quick to find out what itlooks like So they'll be
treating you right, etc.
Etc.
It doesn't matter if Angie'slive or any other service that
you take a part of where you'relooking for service.
They're always saying, hey,what did we do?
Well, if you didn't fulfill ourrequirement, hey, what could we
(18:20):
have done better?
When we have issues related torace in the country and policing
, far too often leaders andpolicing ignore those
disenfranchised groups or atleast give the optics that
they're not paying attention tothem.
And then it gets to the pointwhere, when something blows up,
oh hey, we need to connect withthe community.
Well, that's not how youpublish trust.
You don't wait for a crisis.
Steve Morreale (18:42):
The relationship should be initiated before, not
after the after a problemCorrect.
Obed Magny (18:47):
Correct And I know we're going to get into this
when we talk about the 54thmalpolition project, because
that's directly tied to what youjust asked.
You put in the sweat equity onthe front end so that when
something does inevitably happen, that trust is there to help
you manage through the crisis.
It's no different than ifyou're in a relationship with a
spouse or with a loved one.
When something goes awry, youdon't just say screw you, i'm
(19:09):
just going to pretend like Idon't know you anymore and just
go about your life.
That's not how that works.
If you're with your spouse andyou guys have a fight about
whatever or a blow up aboutwhatever, you work through that
for a better outcome so that youcan avoid that situation on the
back end.
And far too often in policing wedon't pay enough attention to
disenfranchised groups, blackfolks in particular, black
communities in particular inthis country, and we tend to
(19:30):
over-police.
We're not working inpartnership with them And that's
what leads to a lot of distrust.
And we all know about the waron drugs where we tried that
public safety approach.
Steve Morreale (19:38):
I'm an ODA agent so I know and I know the crack
issue.
I do very well.
Obed Magny (19:42):
Right And we know what that led to.
Steve Morreale (19:43):
It led to the break up of the black family.
Obed Magny (19:46):
We know that And people are like we don't trust
the police And somebody who'sworked in investigations like
yourself.
how do you get calm solved?
You got to have cooperation.
You could be community.
So if a community doesn't trustyou, you don't have a
partnership there.
That's going to be a hindrance.
That's how I want to addressthat, answer the question that
way.
And so when we talk aboutcustom legitimacy, it has to be
done on the front end, and I'mgoing to use the words of a wise
friend of mine.
He said building trust is likebuilding a sand castle one grain
(20:10):
at a time And it takes forever.
Anybody who thinks you just doa couple of cops with coffee
events and that's going toestablish some trust, you are
sadly mistaken.
It is a process, a process thatcan take years And it's not
going to be done with a couple,but you're not going to do it
with just a special event orsomething I understand?
Yeah, it's done when the camerasare not there.
It's done when nobody'swatching.
(20:31):
It's done behind the scene.
If you being at a local eventthat's not advertised and you're
with a group of people who younormally would not hang out
during the walk from someone inMontgomery, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa.
okay, let's slow down.
Let's slow down because thatnobody knows about that.
Steve Morreale (20:44):
Let's set the table.
You and a few colleaguesdecided to walk the same walk
that others had before you fromSelma to Montgomery, alabama 54
miles, is that correct?
And you did that with how manypeople?
There's two of my colleagues,okay, dr.
Obed Magny (20:59):
Shaw, i know, i know , I know Madison Dr was a Dr DD.
Yes, yes, wisconsin Chief, andmy other colleague, Assistant
Chief Tark McGuire and ArleneKonsek Okay, how did you get to
know each other?
So we were all lead scholars,shaw and Tark.
For those who listen, the leadscholars program is a three-year
commitment, so you go acrossthe country, you participate in
research panel presentations,all those things obviously
(21:20):
advancing research, data scienceand research and policing.
And so we were all lead scholarsat the same time, And so I was
the young guy coming in whenSean and Tark were done with
their third year, And during ourtalk we talked a lot about how
can we help improve policing,especially when we talk about
issues of race, trust andlegitimacy, And Tark came up
with the idea.
(21:41):
He said Hey, you know what?
as a metaphor, we've got tobuild bridges.
This is what we have to do.
So when you think about abridge, you're connecting two
opposite ends of a roadway overus, right right right, just a
path to meet in the middle, andwe've got to help establish that
.
We decided to take it uponourselves, since we all had a
platform, individually andcollectively, to retrace the
(22:01):
steps of the civil rightsmovement in 1960.
And so this wasn't like aprotest march or anything.
It was just we wanted to bringto life as a beginning to
creating a solution to a problemthat was, i mean, it's hurting
America, right?
So what happened in 2020, we'veseen what happened in Ferguson,
i mean in so long, and wewanted to do the best that we
could to prevent anotherFerguson or another Minneapolis
(22:23):
and so on.
Tark came up with the idea ofbridges and Sean and I were like
, yeah, you know what, i kind ofliked that idea.
That's, that's especially whatwe're doing, and what better way
to start this project than togo down to Selma, alabama, and
walk 54 miles just to raise theawareness?
And we did this with adocumentary filmmaker, so he's
done the whole walk and part ofa documentary.
That's part of a curriculumthat we're building right now
(22:46):
belief executives and helpsolving that problem of how do
we establish and sustain trustin the community.
Right, this is not a.
There's no destination when itcomes to trust, it's always
going to be a work in progress.
I think people forget that.
They think that there's somemagic number you hit and then,
oh, we're done.
Steve Morreale (23:01):
We're done?
Far from it I know, It's neverone and done is it.
Obed Magny (23:06):
No, that's the thing You think about working out,
right?
So I'm going to go off on asmall change.
That's okay If you're, if youhave the perfect and weak.
If there's somebody who worksout and you got the perfect
disease, do you stop working outbecause you have the perfect
disease?
Absolutely not.
You maintain it.
It would just be irresponsibleto say, oh, we've reached a
certain point, now we're goingto have to talk to you or deal
with you anymore.
That's not how that works.
(23:26):
Again, we wanted to createsomething that would outlive the
three of us And for generationsand generations to follow.
There'd be a template in placethat people can follow, people
in leadership and policing tofollow, to help maintain and
sustain that trust andlegitimacy team.
So we did this walk.
It took us about two and a halfdays.
It's the beginning.
It's not the end Cause we cango back to the 54th mile.
(23:46):
There was technically an endfor the physical walk, but it's
the beginning and we're going touse different parts of the walk
in the curriculum to talk aboutdifferent issues.
So we're talking about race andpolicing.
We're talking about emotionalintelligence and other
historical concepts of America.
I guess you could say thenegative history between the
police and the black communities, and we already know about
(24:07):
bloody Sunday.
What do all of these thingsmean And how do we use all of
these examples here today,moving forward and solving a lot
of these, a lot of these issues?
Steve Morreale (24:15):
Well, we're talking a little bit Magni and
he is in Las Vegas and we'rejust beginning to talk about the
54 miles and a documentary Isit available?
Obed Magny (24:25):
Not yet.
It's not up for publicconsumption as of yet.
Again, the thing is is that forus, if this is going back to
what we talked about with thepurpose, right?
We didn't want to create a filmand then put it on Hulu or
Netflix And everybody watches it.
Oh, this is a great film,that's great, and then everybody
forgets about it.
Yeah, no, no, no.
Steve Morreale (24:41):
In other words, you want that to be the starting
point to curriculum and tothinking and all that.
Well, you know, it's interestingbecause I've talked to so many
people on the podcast and one ofthem indicated was Bill Bratton
, who said police have tounderstand the history of their
agency because police weremisused in the past and
grandparents or grand greatgrandparents were harassed and
sometimes beaten by police Andthey hold that historical
(25:05):
perspective and that seepsthrough a family Right.
It really does, and so we haveto understand what our
predecessors did to othersoppressed, and then help build
the bridges that you're talkingabout to say I'm not that way, i
don't want to be that way.
I want to understand your livedexperience, i want to listen to
you, i want you to listen to me, i want us to better understand
(25:26):
each other.
But that's a really difficultthing.
Obed Magny (25:29):
You have to start somewhere, but that's tough to
do It is, and one of the thingsthat we do not just three of us,
but you look at the greatleaders in this world Love is
one of the things that comes up,because they've got love for
their people.
Dr Cornel West said you can'tleave the people unless you love
the people.
And so if you're going toestablish a relationship one
especially that parade with thecommunity, yes, you're going to
(25:50):
have to come out and say youknow what?
we were not perfect.
We get to really trouble things.
We're not going to shy awayfrom that.
Here we are falling on thesword, moving forward.
Let's do the best that we canto right the wrongs, moving
forward, and let's solve thisproblem together.
You're absolutely right, that'svery, very difficult, but
that's part of the process.
People think this is easy.
(26:10):
Oh you need to just show up oneday and talk to a couple of
community members clergy andeverything will be fine.
It's like no, a lot of thiswork is going to be very, very
uncomfortable.
It has to be uncomfortable, ican tell you right now, even
with personal experiences.
I've got a couple of friendsthat I had fallen short into
things with them And I have tocall and say yes, that was 100%
on me, i screwed up, this is myfault, i don't make any bones
(26:33):
about it.
It's very uncomfortable.
But the feeling you have on theback end is like OK, now that
we've acknowledged the skeletonsin the closet or the elephant
in the room, what do we have todo to move forward?
It's like we can mend thesesenses Like hey, we're all going
to have that car with somesurgery, it's going to always be
there.
Let's cover it up, let me knowand move forward, because you
can't move forward unlessthere's feeling, and you can't
have feeling until you have thatuncomfortable, crucial
(26:55):
conversation.
Steve Morreale (26:56):
Yeah, that's extremely important to
understand And I think I camefrom a pretty white neighborhood
and school.
I was raised in the 60s and 70sand my time in the military is
when I realized that it reallydidn't matter color someone's
skin or what their religion was,because our mission was to
protect each other.
We're in uniform no differentthan policing but we're in
uniform.
It doesn't matter who you are,where you come from.
(27:18):
But I like Covey's piece andone of the principles Seek first
to understand and then beunderstood.
To me that's an extremely basicway to understand.
But I have to tell you in school, so many people who work as
faculty don't want to touch thethird rail, don't want to start
any trouble, don't want to openthings up, and I have to tell
you that's exactly where I feelthe most comfortable to say oh
(27:39):
bed, tell us how you feel aboutpolicing, tell us the experience
that you have.
Help us understand you or yourfamily and what your perspective
is.
It's the only way we're goingto understand.
And some would say you know,don't, don't call me out just
because I'm a black man.
I'm not doing that.
I'm trying to help everybodyunderstand what we've all gone
through so that we can take ourfrigging blinders off and
(28:00):
understand each other.
And you're shaking your head.
I don't.
Again, this is touchy stuff,but I think it's so important to
talk about.
Obed Magny (28:05):
So the reason I'm shaking my head is I get that
it's touching stuff.
I'm very comfortable.
It's really comfortable in thestate for several reasons,
because there's a researchcomponent in this, there's a
real life component in this Andit's nuanced.
But it doesn't have to beaccusatory, it doesn't have to
have a negative connotation.
So here's what I'm going to do.
I always make it a point tomodel the hate.
I don't want to just be the guythat says, hey, do this,
(28:26):
because I said so.
You're going to see it happenAnd then you're going to say,
well, he's about that life, hedoes it.
So the uncomfortable peopleit's the stages that were like
hey, it's comfortable, whereeverybody can speak their truth
without judgment.
When it's established from thefront and people can feel
comfortable, you're going to bemuch better off than hey, we're
going to get together And thenwe're just going to put zero
(28:47):
context.
We'll just start.
Steve Morreale (28:48):
What happens is you have to set the ground rules
and you have to build a reportand you have to talk about
talking with a group And we haveto say here's what we're trying
to accomplish We're trying tounderstand each other better.
Obed Magny (28:58):
Correct.
And so, with emotionalintelligence, it's managing your
emotions as they happen to you,recognizing and managing the
emotions of others.
So I've had calls for servicewhere somebody would MS me up
and down for like 15 minutes andeverything.
In the back of my mind.
I'm like this person's hurtingand they just venting.
They just want to be hurt And Idon't see that threatening.
I just let them speak theirpeace, acknowledge their hurt
(29:19):
and then move forward from there, whereas somebody else may not
be aware of that business.
Like hey, this person's tryingto be threatening and then it
becomes a use of force or itbecomes a hands on situation, a
less than ideal situation, andso let's just put it out there.
We don't teach this stuff inpolicing enough.
We only do 3.21% worth ofinterpersonal skills in an
average six month account.
So out of 650 hours, we're onlyspending 20.
(29:41):
Now we all know that 99% of thework in policing, especially if
you're an officer, is you're inthe people business.
You're dealing with people whoare probably having a bad day,
and you should be equipped, justlike with handcuffs, a tongue
pepper spray.
You should be equipped withemotional intelligence skills to
deal with people who mightotherwise might poke a threat to
you, and really they're justventing and they're just talking
out loud.
There are some cultures wherepeople use their hands That's
(30:03):
not meant to be threatening.
There are some cultures wherenot making eye contact is a sign
of respect and not beingdeceiving.
So there's layers to this andknowing, learning and
understanding these things areimportant.
We don't do it enough inpolicing And that's why you see
a lot of issues.
Or you do see a lot of videoswhere some people, hey, why did
he take it Well, why did shetake it to the next level when
they didn't even warrant that?
But now you're gambling no punintended, because I'm invaded
(30:27):
With the hope that the person,the officer, the individual
officer or even the citizen orwhoever You know, you're hoping
that they understand, versus theyou know have the skills to
understand those dynamics.
So when you're in that room andit's established on the front
end like, hey, we're going tohave some uncomfortable
conversations, we know it'sgoing to happen.
Not meant to be personal, thisis part of the process.
(30:48):
This is the crucible that wehave to go through in order to
be better on the back end.
It's why the Marines do it,that's why there's hell
weakening, maybe field trainingand so on and so forth.
There has to be the crucible tounderstand collectively,
together, without judgment, andaddress the issues that got us
to this here, got us to thispoint in the first place, and
move forward.
No one is sitting here sayingHey see, this is your fault
(31:10):
specifically.
We have these issues here goingon tomorrow.
We know that wearing theuniform is a low hanging fruit,
because when you're wearinguniform you're wrapping
something government easy, easy,easy kicking.
So you have to understand.
You're just showing upbreathing in a uniform, whether
you're white, black, whoever,some people are going to feel a
certain type of way.
As only you understand that andyou're not taking that personal
, you're already in a muchbetter spot to deal with
(31:31):
whatever situation that you'redealing with.
So, we don't do it enough inpolicing.
There are many opportunitiesfor this.
that, unfortunately, might takeplace because there are some
people who are uncomfortablewith the fact that, hey, this is
going to be messy.
I've never had to deal withthis.
I would rather not deal with it, and this is one of the reasons
why the 54th Mount PolicingProject is going to address this
issue.
That's great.
Steve Morreale (31:52):
So we've been talking with Obed Magni Dr
Obedna Magni and is in Las Vegas.
He is an adjunct instructor, aformer Sacramento police officer
, very active as a lead scholarfor NIJ and active and actually
was one of founders of theAmerican society of
evidence-based policing, andwe've been talking about things
that relate to race and minorityand difference in cultures and
(32:14):
all of those kinds of things,and I don't mean to focus only
on the African American populace, but there's so many others,
especially out where you are, somany other minority populations
that we don't always understand.
Concern that I have is that,with policing, the answer in a
lot of ways is let's get themtraining.
Let's let them know aboutmental health.
(32:35):
Let's let them know aboutautism.
Let's let them know about theAsian culture.
Let's let them know It becomesoverwhelming to police to
constantly be told you need toknow this better.
It's beneficial for them.
You understand, but there is aresistance and a reluctance
because people I know I mean youwere a cop, i was a cop.
Don't tell me I'm racist.
I'm not saying that you'reracist.
I'm just wanting you tounderstand other people's
(32:57):
perspectives, whatever the wordmight be.
But what's your thought aboutthe receptivity that you get
from police departments when youare conducting trainings such
as emotional intelligence or theknowledge of other people.
What's out there?
What are you doing?
What are you seeing?
How is it being?
Obed Magny (33:14):
received Number one.
When we talk about, let's justsay, diversity, equity and
inclusion, dei, everyoneautomatically defaults to What
are we talking about?
Black and white?
And no, we're not talking aboutblack and white.
I let them know right out thegate.
It goes beyond that.
So, yes, there's black, white,different races and so on, but
there's the diversity of thought, which means religion.
Are you conservative, liberal,libertarian?
(33:36):
no-part affiliation, are youLGBTQ Or are you not?
There are so many levels Andthis is one of the reasons why
you're seeing the issues withrecruiting and retention and
policing.
The generation of yesterdaythat put in their 30 years maybe
got treated like trash, butthey knew they were going to get
their attention moved toMontana shot off to.
Montana I've never been there.
I've been here, it's beautiful,i'll get there someday, and
(33:58):
they're happy ever after.
Today's generation is notinterested in that.
Today's generation wants to berespected.
They want to be givenopportunities to succeed, they
want to be given autonomy, theywant to be challenged in a way
that makes them better at theirjob in their certain field field
.
They want to be respected andseen as an individual and not as
a bad member, because we'venever had that kind of culture
(34:19):
in policing, nor have we had thetraining to change the culture
like that institution-wide.
You have this gap where I mightsay, oh bad, mad me, i want to
be a police officer.
So let me go talk to this guy,steve Morelle, because I heard
he was working over here at AcmePolice Department, and I go
over and I talk to Steve Steve,hey, now I want to be a police
officer.
Is Acme a good place to work in?
If you say, man, don't comehere.
(34:40):
Man, this place is It sucks,you have If you talk on Yeah,
and so don't even come here.
So if I, as a recruit, going togo work for Acme, the answer is
no.
Second part to that And I'mglad you asked that question
because again, all this isrelated to the retention issues
that we have going on inpolicing right now.
I'm going to give you aspecific story about two people.
I'm not going to mention whattheir agencies are, but they're
(35:01):
both on the East Coast.
I know two individuals withdoctorate degrees who are now
finalists for chief jobs acrossthe country Again not going to
say where because of the valuethat they bring, their
respective organizations haveignored them, have not given
them the opportunity to succeed.
So those of the audience whoare in a position to hire and
recruit I want you guys tolisten to me very, very
carefully.
Those two stories are notunique.
(35:22):
I know people who have been inother agencies.
Smaller agencies who have valuein their organizations, ignored
them And now they're at anotheragency with a billion dollar
budget and they're absolutelythriving In many respects.
There's a lot of pockets aroundthe country where people say hey
, you know what The thing aboutthe progressive?
you have to be an officer, youhave your sergeant, you have to
(35:42):
be a lieutenant, you have towork in these units.
People are starting to say wedon't even see the value in that
.
If somebody at an officer levelor somebody at a sergeant level
just use those two land fedexamples, if they can come in
here in a leadership positionand provide value to the
organization, can we get youhere yesterday?
This is starting to happenright now in this retention
recruiting war, if you want tocall it that, maybe in a big
(36:05):
band of college sports.
This is where we're at.
And so when you have today'sgeneration saying, hey, i have
value that I can bring to yourorganization and the
organization says, yes, schoolyear values, we don't care about
that.
What you need to do is hit thestreets because these calls are
pending.
When that happens, that employeetoday's generation, the
millennials, the Gen X, the Y,the Alpha they're like oh, i'll
(36:27):
tell you what.
Check this out.
Here's my resignation paper.
I'm out of here five.
And so that's the risk.
You got the generational riffof the old guard wrestling with
the new guard, where the newguard is saying we don't care,
not to say that they don't careabout money.
Money's obviously important.
If you're being paid yourmarket worth, you're good Cause.
We all know in the Bay Area,people are like astonished when
they hear what they're paying$170,000 a year.
(36:49):
I'm like, if you're in the SanFrancisco area, $170,000 a year
is like not even a job for thebucket.
Now, if you're in Wyoming orsomething, but that's the
picture.
So, going back to your originalquestion with the DEI part, or
what I'm saying in thesetrainings is there's literally a
lack of recognition of thetalent that people have in their
own organization And you justhave other agencies who are
(37:11):
savvy enough, just over here,coaching, just coaching.
And so if you're a leader of anorganization, you're a police
chief, even if you're alieutenant, doesn't even matter.
If you're mid-level manager, ifyou've got somebody who's got
talent and you're not overtlywant to make sure you guys
listen to the cards that arecoming out of my mouth Or partly
trying to cultivate and makesure that person is in the best
position to succeed, not justfrom their own right but for the
(37:33):
organization standpoint.
You are literally the problemin this retention issue.
So if you've got somebody inyour department who's got a lot
of greed and they pass the barand there's no work of patrol
and there's no in-house counsel,or you haven't created that
position, even if it's anauxiliary position, you're going
to be going to fall behind.
Steve Morreale (37:50):
Yeah, you're underutilizing a person's talent
And I think it's identifying.
That's a really important thing.
Identifying leadershippotential is extremely important
And I think that for so manyleaders and I do, so much
training at your job one of myfavorite sayings now is
leadership, it's all on you, butit's not about you, it's about
your people.
It's about developing others.
(38:10):
It's about developing andsustaining the organization by
creating opportunities to tapinto the intellectual curiosity
people have And let them come upwith ideas on how to improve
the organization, how to improveservice delivery, how to
improve relationships.
That's extremely important.
What say you?
And the research is?
Obed Magny (38:30):
overwhelming.
I'm telling you anecdotallythere's a frontline supervisor
and an officer who are finalistsfor chief jobs across the
country because theirorganization is like ah,
whatever, you're not going to goanywhere.
Again, this is the old gardenmentality of oh, you should just
be happy to have a job,meanwhile you're hand-wrenching
on the back end.
So to your point.
The research is overwhelminglysupportive of this.
And if you recognize youremployees, if you give them the
(38:53):
ability to achieve, if yourecognize the work that they do,
you put them in a positionwhere they're able to do the job
itself and not mess with it,and you're there as a mentor to
help guide.
At the end of the day, it's allabout relationships.
Nobody's going to say man, youknow what I love about Steve
Morelle?
I love Steve Morelle becausethat man knew policy procedure
better than anybody else.
No one is going to trip overthe phone to get to work early
(39:15):
because they know that you'regoing to talk about policies and
procedures.
That's the expectation.
The expectation is you're goingto know that stuff at a
baseline level.
You're going to expect thatyour supervisor treats you with
respect and dignity If you're inan organization or if the
culture of the organization doesnot see you and does not
recognize you.
You're already failed And theresearch is.
(39:35):
And again, these are not mywords, i mean, i'm just putting
my own spin on it, but theresearch on this is, again,
overwhelming, it's voluminous.
And so you got to say toyourself at the end of the day,
it's all about relationships, soyou could put someone in a
position who can connect withothers And this is going back to
the emotional intelligencepiece right, and you're
connecting with others and youunderstand people.
That's how trust is created andsustained.
The IQ part that can come late.
(39:56):
Learning the technical aspectsof the job that can come later.
That's not the most importantpart.
Relationships are always, atthe end of the day, the most
important.
Steve Morreale (40:04):
Well, you know I'm thinking about this.
I think there are some peoplewho would listen to this podcast
and listen to you, and I knowyou and I, or the people that we
have a tendency to gravitate toAnd those are the people who
have promised.
Those are the people who havenew ideas, who challenge the
system, who question them, andsome people get aggravated when
(40:24):
we ask questions Well, why do wedo it this way?
And what about that?
Have you thought about this?
They see those people like me,or like you at times, as a
threat, as opposed to sayingthese are people with promise,
let's listen.
That's that protectionism ofmany people who are in positions
of power and policing, who wantto keep it very close to the
vest because they want to retaintheir job and they don't want
(40:46):
to let anybody else in.
I'm seeing you shake your head,but I think that day has come
and has to go where you realizeand utilize the people for the
benefit of the organization.
Obed Magny (40:57):
This is why I'm such a proponent of coaching and
policing, that what you justshared is always at the
forefront.
If you were a potential clientand you said, hey, listen, i'm
running this organization andwe're following short agency
through XYZ, and so I'm sayingto you okay, before I take you
on as a client, i want to know alittle bit about you and what
you're looking forward, what youwant to accomplish, et cetera,
(41:17):
et cetera.
So I'm going to ask let's justmake up a scenario right now.
So let's say that yourprotectionism is there's some
people in the organization thathave a skill set related to law,
and we'll just say psychology.
So I'm asking you it's ChiefMorelle.
You have a recruiting orretention problem and we've
identified that some of it hasto do with you not recognizing
your employees.
What would it look like if youwere fully staffed?
You would say, oh man, it'd begreat.
(41:39):
How would that help you begreat?
Well, i wouldn't spend as muchtime working on this budget, i
wouldn't be spending as muchtime on scheduling, et cetera.
Okay, but all that free time,what would that help you
accomplish?
Oh well, maybe I can spend moretime with community members and
attend more meetings.
So when we literally write thisout, it becomes a hey, wait a
minute, me helping them.
It's going to make them looklike a superstar.
(42:00):
And it makes me look like asuperstar because now my city
council is like, hey, wait aminute, now we can do ABCXYZ.
Bellevue, nebraska.
Chief Clary shout out to.
Chief Clary does not have arecruiting or retention problem.
He's fully staffed.
In fact, he's looking to addmore FTE positions.
He's a big lead and he's a leadscholar, because of the same
things that we're talking abouthere on this podcast.
He's just one of those guys whojust goes out there and just
(42:22):
does it.
He literally says, okay, whoare my best people in what?
And who's got skills?
Who in my department has askill set that is unorthodox,
and how can we utilize that tohelp you?
So what happens is when peoplesay, hey, you know what?
Tell me about that organization.
If your average frontlineemployee is like man, this was
the best place on earth to carryon.
If you got a skill set, they'regoing to want you to do ABCXYZ.
The military does this.
(42:43):
Yes, they do.
The military already does this.
You got a skill set andsomething Oh, invasive training.
That's the lead.
We're going to put you in thatposition, whether it's line
drones or IT, whatever that is.
We're going to put you in thatposition of all, and that's
something that we've got to movetowards in policing, and if you
don't, we're going to fallbehind.
This is why, again, i willO'Bertley say that you cannot be
a leader in policing and nothave a coach.
Yes, you have to pay money topull a coach, but to return on
(43:05):
investment Again, these are notmy words, we're looking up on
your own The return oninvestment is somewhere like a
hundred, whatever it is that youspend on the fun if you get
quadrupled on the back end.
So that is from a fiscalstandpoint, from an operational
standpoint, whether it's from aleadership vacuum standpoint
succession planning, recruiting,retention, all of these things.
This is a normal thing in theprivate sector.
(43:26):
It is normal, yes, it is Normal.
Mid-level managers, all therest of the CEOs, everybody's
got a coach.
And if you want to trust theadvisor, coaching is the
proactive side.
The trusted advisor is on thereactive side.
So again, you said it earlierin the podcast in policing we're
talking about public safety,we're talking about why, being
in the balance, officer safetyand public safety, and so on and
(43:49):
so forth.
If there's a crisis that takesplace or something that's up for
it, do you have someone who'sobjective, somebody who's got no
agenda, who can give you somesound advice, but somebody who
knows enough about the game I'mtalking about policing right To
give you some sound advice andsay, hey, let's look at this
holistically.
Here's some of the pros, here'ssome of the cons.
You know, if you go in thisroute, these things can happen.
If you go in this route, thesethings can happen.
(44:09):
I think, based on my experience, training, you know me working
in not just operations but ageand professional standards,
working in policies, and Iworked on our union for three
years, so I've seen what Lathanlooked like inside and out and
all the work that I'm doing withthe federal level.
You know, just, do you havesomebody who can give you that
advice?
And it's almost criminal and Idon't think that word might be,
but it's almost criminal thatthe overwhelming majority of
(44:31):
leaders don't even have atrusted advisor.
So that's something that I'malso pushing for and advocating.
Steve Morreale (44:36):
I think that's important And part of what your
role is, and when I've beencalled into coach police chiefs,
i find that one of the thingsthat you're doing.
Let me say this in a lot ofways and this is gonna ruffle
some feathers at perhaps it islike going to a psychiatrist or
a psychologist who is nevergoing to give you the answer but
is always gonna ask thequestions.
(44:56):
And it's when you ask thosepointed questions that people
reflect and sometimes get caught.
Sure, well, i've never reallythought of it.
Okay, well, why don't you thinkabout that?
Why don't we reconvene the nexttime?
Tell me what you're thinkingabout.
So sometimes what you're doingis leading through questions,
leading the thoughts throughquestions, And I think that's
really important.
It's not something that policechiefs, police deputy chiefs,
(45:17):
should be afraid of but shouldbe looking for, so that they are
not looking for sage advicefrom within the organization but
from outside the organizationGo ahead.
Obed Magny (45:26):
The first pillar of emotional intelligence is
self-awareness.
The first thing we talked aboutwith the 54th mile policing
project is that journey ofself-discovery.
Giving you the answer, yeah,that'd be one thing, but have
you thought it through?
Have you looked at the pros andcons?
Maybe there's some biases thatyou may not be aware of.
And how does that come out?
It comes out through a coachingprocess or through the trust
and advisor process.
It's gonna vary from agency toagency.
(45:48):
You might have one agency wherethe issues might have to do
with the mid-level management.
You might have another issue,another agency, where the issues
really would have to do morewith equipment or with a game
mode.
I'm sorry, i mean one agencythat I know of.
This is why it's so importantto have stay interviews, and I
don't know if the audience arefamiliar with stay interviews,
but everybody does an exitinterview right.
And this exit interview,inherently it might just be bad.
Steve Morreale (46:08):
It's too late.
It's kinda too late.
Obed Magny (46:10):
Right, you wait until it's too late to ask a
question.
Why would you not look into itbefore it becomes an issue?
This is the reason why you goevery year to the doctor for
your physical to get a checkup.
You don't wait until you're onyour deathbed.
It doesn't make any sense.
So this is why, again, yeah,when you're doing surveys within
your organization, find outwhat those issues are.
Take care of the first two,three, four, five.
we'll hang in fruit, because itshows that you're interested in
(46:31):
solving the problem.
Versus oh, we just do a surveywith the city every year and
then we gather this data andthen we take this sheet and we
hold up the table that's wobblyat the bottom and we use that
sheet to take care of that.
You can't do that.
That's why we have again theissue that we have right now
with concluding retention.
People are not even seeing theinstitution of policing as
legitimate as a career option,and a lot of that has to do with
what we're talking about righthere.
Steve Morreale (46:51):
A lot of work to be done is what you're saying,
and I think the whole work thatyou're doing with evidence-based
policing and pushing thatagenda and that idea, the idea
of needing coaching, doingconsulting, is really important.
One thing I'm gonna do, obed,is I'm gonna teach you how to
pronounce my name.
It is Steve Morielli.
(47:11):
Morielli, moria, moriale is theItalian way.
It doesn't matter to me whatyou call me.
Intro (47:16):
As long as you call me Steve, i'm okay.
Steve Morreale (47:19):
But I don't want you to be saying my name wrong
all across the country andeverywhere you go.
But listen as I wind downbecause we're coming up just at
the end of our session.
I wanna say that when I askedyou to come on, you never know
what's gonna happen in aconversation, but you are an
innovative guy, you are aknowledgeable guy And you are
one who has taken yourexperiences and are willing to
(47:42):
share them with others, and youshould be very proud of that.
I mean that It is an absolutepleasure to talk with you, and
what I want you to do at the endhere is that you have the last
word.
The people who are listening arefrom all over the world.
In many cases, there's so manypeople who are listening from
New Zealand and from Australiaand from Ireland and from the UK
and, obviously, canada and theUnited States, but as people who
(48:06):
are looking to improve policeagencies, what is your starting
advice?
How do you begin to look atyour agency, not day to day, but
longer term?
Tell the audience some of thethings that they should begin to
think about.
Obed Magny (48:21):
The number one.
Before you even go anywhere,the number one thing you have to
remember is what is the purposeof the accomplishment that
you're looking for.
Know what your why is.
Know what it is that you wannado.
Know for a fact that I wannaimprove policing through this
avenue.
Once you've got that figuredout and I'm not saying it's
(48:41):
gonna be a cakewalk, but itbecomes much easier to reach
that accomplishment, even as theAmerican Society of Evidence
and Police and God Off theGround I mean, when I saw you
there were more valleys thanpeaks.
This is the norm of life.
Nothing's ever gonna be easy.
You're always gonna havebarriers, but understand that
you don't have to do it byyourself.
There are other people who willprobably do the same thing that
you're doing and you need toconnect with them.
(49:02):
That's why it's important toconnect with organizations like
the American Society of Evidenceand Police.
Get connected with the 54thMount Policing Project, because
we're gonna have stuff comingout with that too The National
Policing Institute.
There are other people in thisspace.
It doesn't matter if you're aresearcher, a community member,
clergy, police officer, policechief, somebody who works in
public safety, campus security,private security.
(49:22):
There is literally a space foreverybody to be a part of the
solution.
There is no over-saceration inone respect or another respect.
We know that researchers arevery good at punching numbers
and doing all that kind of stuff, but there's some nuances in
the actual application inpolicing that they may not be
aware of and they need topartner with a practitioner who
(49:43):
can talk to them.
Show them, for example, thoseno-gifts and movies where they
jump in sideways and shootpeople in the pinky.
That's not real life.
That doesn't happen, that's amovie.
And then there's the otheraspect.
There's some things that caninform policing and better ways
of policing, increasing publicsafety and officer safety.
That's backed by research.
So that's why partnerships arevery, very important.
Whatever it is that you want todo, whatever avenue you wanna
(50:05):
get into, you don't have to dealby yourself.
Find the why first, and thenpartner with others who are
like-minded.
So, and when you startconnecting and networking, going
to these conferences, you'llstart realizing oh, there are
better ways I can approach thisperspective or that perspective.
Hire a coach, somebody whomight be able to help you
individually navigate thesewaters.
That's what a lot of people do,especially in business who
(50:26):
wanna be successful.
They hire somebody who knowswhat it is that needs to be done
and what that normal equationlooks like, and you want
somebody to help guide youthrough that process.
Steve Morreale (50:34):
Part of what we're talking about is that you
really have to take a step backand then take the first step.
It requires a lot ofself-reflection and that's
really very, very important.
Sometimes I've walked into somany organizations and started
talking to people.
You'd ask a question and you'dget this blank look like I've
never been asked that question.
I've never thought of it thatway.
So it's very valuable forsomebody who's been around to be
(50:54):
able to come in and pose somequestions and to get you
thinking in a differentdimension, which can be very
valuable both to you and to theorganization.
And I think we all have torealize we can't do it And there
is the line That's where acoach comes in or that's where a
consultant comes in, that'swhere training comes in, that's
where a facilitation or a focusgroup comes in can be very
valuable.
So, obed, thank you for hangingin there with me today.
Obed Magny (51:14):
Well, thank you, dr Morelli.
I apologize for butchering yourname.
You know what it is.
I just fell in the door, i justscrewed your name and butchered
your name, and for somebodywho's got a weird first name,
you think I'd know better.
So now I'm never gonna forgetMorelli, i'm gonna show the
Italian part.
Morelli, i just screwed that upagain.
That's what I'm working on thenext day.
Steve Morreale (51:35):
Oh, no, no, no, you can say it, it's closer than
it was before.
I've got Morelli in on it.
Don't worry, it doesn't matter,it doesn't matter.
You know who I am and you knowhow to reach me and I know how
to reach you.
But thank you for your time,for your energy.
I wish you the best of luck.
How can people reach you?
Obed Magny (51:49):
So on social media Twitter, instagram, tiktok at Dr
Obed Magni thatE-R-O-B-E-D-M-A-G-N-Y.
You can also email me at infoat magnileadershipcom or Obed at
magnileadershipcom.
I'm on LinkedIn, so I'm veryactive on LinkedIn.
So, yeah, you can reach out tome that way too.
Steve Morreale (52:11):
There's all kinds of ways, And when you just
put it Obed, there has to beonly a few that come up right.
Obed Magny (52:17):
There's a heavyweight boxer named Obed
Sullivan, i know that much, andthere's somebody who has the
same last name as the UFCfighter.
So there's only one of me,right?
So many of me, like you said,very few handsome brothers like
myself.
Yes, make sure we prepare.
Thanks for the greatconversation And I wish you the
best of luck.
Steve Morreale (52:36):
So, that's another episode of the Cop Doc
podcast.
I'm Steve Morielli coming toyou from Boston.
We just finished with ObedMagni And he's in Las Vegas, so
thank you so much for listening.
Appreciate you passing thepodcast on to friends if you get
anything out of it And let meknow if there's anything that
you wanna hear about or talkabout, or if you've got some
suggestions of people I shouldtalk to or making changes and
(52:56):
innovations in policing.
Thanks so much.
See you on the next episode.
Intro (53:00):
Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc podcast with Dr
Steve Morielli.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Western State
University.
Please tune into the Cop Docpodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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