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April 21, 2024 49 mins

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Season 6 - Episode 127

Imagine a world where the officers patrolling our neighborhoods not only serve and protect but are also the pinnacle of professional development and adaptability. That's the vision Dr. Matt O'Deane, a prominent figure at California POST, shares as he joins me, Steve Morialli, to unwrap his journey from a safety patrol youngster to a linchpin in the oversight of police training. We traverse Matt's storied career, from his start at the National City Police Department to his impactful days within the San Diego District Attorney's Office, and now his influential work ensuring law enforcement officers across California are well-equipped to face the rapidly changing demands of their duty.

Have you ever wondered what goes into the making of a law enforcement officer in California? Well, prepare to be enlightened as Dr. O'Deane and I examine the intricate pathways from academy to continuous advancement within the force. We strip back the layers of their rigorous training, highlighting the essential training in critical areas such as crisis management and strategic communication. It's not all work, though—Matt shares the personal investment and perseverance needed to climb the ladder from corporal to command, the pivotal probationary periods, and the creative solutions resilient police chiefs employ to maintain high training standards amid resource scarcity.

Finally, we pull back the curtain on the meticulous planning and collaboration required to keep California's police training in step with legislative changes. Hear from Dr. O'Deane about the approval process for new courses, the importance of feedback in shaping responsive training programs, and the stringent selection criteria for consultants at California POST. As we discuss the future of law enforcement education and accountability, you'll get a front-row seat to the ongoing efforts to ensure our peace officers are not only educated but exemplify the utmost in professional conduct and competence.

Contact us:


If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro-Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
The CopD oc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
And now please join Dr.

Steve Morreale and industrythought leaders as they share
their insights and experience onThe CopD oc Podcast.

Steve Morreale (00:32):
Hey everybody.
Steve Morreale, you'relistening to the cop doc podcast
We're back again with anotherepisode.
This time we're here in Bostonand talking to somebody in
California, Matt O'Deane, Dr.
Matt O'Deane.
Hello there, Matt.
Good morning sir.
Thanks for coming in.
How are you?
I am fine.
I'll speak a little bit abouthow we connected.
Matt and I connected while hewas at Walden University and,

full disclosure, I was the chairof a dissertation that he
We've done some presentationsbefore.
We've kept in contact.
Matt was a commander at theDistrict Attorney's Diego O
ffice of Investigations and henow works for California POST I
want to talk about.
I know you were in a policedepartment, but how did you get
involved in policing, what turnsdid you take, what work did you

do and what brings you toCalifornia Post?

Matt O'Deane (01:17):
Well, I know I wanted to be a police officer.
Quite honestly, all the wayback to when I was in sixth
grade I remember vividly Iwanted to work in law
I was a member of the school'ssafety patrol and there was a
local officer from the city ofLa Mesa that came to our school
and I was just always veryimpressed with law enforcement.
I had some uncles back inMassachusetts that were police
officers in my hometown and thenjust went to junior, high and

high school and then decided tostart community college.
I started taking a bunch ofcriminal justice courses, which
really reinforced my interest inthe profession, and then I went
through the San Diego CountySheriff's Academy and graduated.
I was a security officer at thesame time for the San Diego
Transit System, the San Diegotrolley.
So I was doing that rightaround downtown and then got
picked up by the National CityPolice Department Little city

here in San Diego County 90officer department did that for
10 and a half years and then Ileft there as a sergeant and
then went over to the DA'soffice bureau investigation and
I worked there for 17 and a halfand the last four I was a
commander there.
So I was in charge of the gangprosecution unit, the narcotics
unit, the cold case homicideunit and training.
So I did that and in Californiapolice officers are fortunate

enough to be able to retire at50 years old.
So I turned 50, I pulled theplug from a law enforcement
position and then I went to workfor California POST Peace
Officer Standards and Training,which is obviously it's a
regulatory agency.
It's that we are not swornpeace officers but we work with
police officers every day.
I Region Seven the manager, soI'm the liaison to the Los

Angeles Sheriff's Department andthen every police department in
Riverside, San Berna rdino,Inyo, and Mono County.
So I have 48 police departmentsand then 22 private presenters,
basically private companiesthat we have certified
POST-training provide, and Iwork with them.
I meet with them on a regularbasis.
I attend all the monthly chiefmeetings.

I update them on all kinds ofthings that are changing as far
as laws and regulations andpolicies.
There's quite a bit going onactually in California the last
couple of years as far aslegislation and licensing and
decertification, trainingrequirements, education
So there's a lot of things thatthe chiefs need to be aware of
and I also meet with all thetraining managers.
Each of the departments has atraining cadre, whether it's for

the perishable skills, theshooting, the driving, the
arrest, control or otherleadership topics, or mandatory
topics, legislative mandatedissues.
And then, of course, go up toSacramento five, six times a
year, stay connected to theoffice.
That's where the headquartersis.
That's, the headquarters isactually in West Sacramento.
So post has about 170 employeesthat run, regulate the entire

state and we're broken up into aseries of bureaus.
I'm assigned to the training,delivery and compliance bureau
so we make sure every policeofficer that's hired meets the
government code, penal code,post regulation to qualify.
They have to do a long laundrylist of things to qualify to be
a police officer or a dispatcheror a reserve.
And also we run the policeacademies and supervisory

We have our command college.
There's a lot of variousprogram management, consulting.
So we do kind of what you do,steve, where you go into a
department and you look at it,you evaluate it, you give them
suggestions on what can be donemore efficiently, what maybe
needs to be changed, with a veryacademic, scientific
methodology to it, and then, ofcourse, the whole new licensing
So I believe yesterday was thefirst hearing of the new

advisory board that GovernorNewsom put into place over the
course of this year, and twoofficers were there and went
before this new board to startthe process to decertify and
based on serious misconduct thatthey allegedly engaged in.

Steve Morreale (04:48):
That was a really big day yesterday, and
then moving forward, the firstof a few anyway.
You went back to school.
You earned your doctorate.
I know you do some teaching.
What I'm curious about, and Ihope that we can explore that,
is when we talk about policetraining and how to improve that
I'm curious to know, now thatyou're a practitioner that is
now in this oversightresponsibility and counseling or

coaching responsibility forpolice agencies and you get to
talk with police chiefs andtraining coordinators, both from
the training side from thestate and the training side from
each individual police agency.
There's a lot of moving parts,as you will know, and I'm
curious to know how post isgetting feedback and deciding

what they might change or whatthey need to pay attention to.
I know at one point in time notthat you didn't do it, but we
talk about de-escalationtechniques and, obviously,
cultural competency, and it justgoes on on dealing with mental
health problems.
It seems to be an ever-changinglandscape of things that police
officers have to be aware ofand trained with.

So talk about that.

Matt O'Deane (05:54):
Yeah, that's very much correct.
So a lot of what we do isdealing with the results of what
the legislator passes.
So, as an example, like afterthe George Floyd incident, the
governor and the legislator inCalifornia decided to not allow
police officers to use, say, thecarotid restraint.
So that technique, they said itcannot be used in a
post-certified course.

If the departments are going touse it, going to train it,
that's on them, but it's notgoing to certify it.
So as a result of just that oneincident, I went through all
the courses in my area, whichthere are many, many hundreds,
and noticed that several of thecourses contain that content in
their outline.
I had to reach out to thetraining managers and advise
them hey, this needs to beremoved.
Another recent piece oflegislation was AB48.

So after a lot of the protestsand riots in a lot of areas, the
legislator in the state didn'tlike how the police were using
less lethal beanbags, chemicalagents to disperse crowds, as an
So they kind of changed therules on that.
Police need to give variouswarnings, they need to give
escape routes, things like that.
So that we had to change thenall the training that exists or

has been created since toaddress the new changes of the
legislator I said to put inthose things.
So when they're teaching theclasses, we know that they are
teaching what the current law is.
So one of the things we do iswe go through all the courses
and there's about 5,000 coursesapproved in California that we
have post approved state.
So it's a very large catalogand anybody can go to postcagov

and click on the catalog and youcan look at our entire
curriculum of courses.
Also, if any of your listenersare interested, they can go to a
new website that was created.
It's called open data all oneword O, p, e, n, d, a, t, a, dot
, post, dot, c, a, dot, gov, andit'll open up a little search
engine and they can put in thetitle or the police department
or the presenter or the coursenumber, if they know it from the
catalog, and every singleoutline of every post approved

class is public record.
So Senate bill 978 was anotherlaw passed back in I think it
was passed in 18, but it wasimplemented in 2020 where the
state said the public has aright to know what the police
are being taught, what they'rebeing trained right.
Their taxpayers fund the policedepartment.
So now community members don'teven need to call us and say,
hey, I want a copy of the LAPD'sbicycle course outline or a

rifle course.
They can just get it.
So that's kind of nice.
It kind of actually alleviatedsome workload from guys like me,
the consultants, people callingand asking us hey, just log in
and you can get it and reviewyourself.
So there's just tons of newlaws.
Obviously, senate bill two isthe huge one with the licensing,
the decertification.
We created four new actuallysix new bureaus, changed,

reconstructed our organizationalchart, moved things around,
hired a bunch of retired lawenforcement officers to run that
bureau and to triage the cases.
So the law basically requiresyou to have incident of serious
misconduct occur, an allegationof serious misconduct not even
that it's true, just theallegation has to be reported to
us within 10 days so that thedepartments will up by the

So the department is requiredto upload.
Somebody walked into the lobby.
They said, hey, this policeofficer punched me for no reason
It's excessive, it'sunnecessary, it's a crime, it's
Whatever they make theirallegation, the police
department documents it likethey do.
Now get assigned to an internalaffairs division, as you know,
to investigate.

They'll come up with theirfinding.
Is it sustained, is it not?
Is it your discipline?
Or it could be from a verbalwarning or reprimand all the way
up to being terminated andcriminally prosecuted, depending
on what they do.
So all of that whole processwas set.
But as far as the training goes,police officers in California
have what we call continualprofessional training, cpt.
The lowest possible minimum is24 hours every two years.

So every police officer, fromthe chief of police all the way
down to a reserve, includingdispatchers, need 24 hours of
training every two years.
So basically 12 hours a year.
They would technically qualifyfor the minimums.
Now in my area there's nopolice department that does the
I believe that I just checked acouple months ago.
The average police officer getsabout 40 hours of training a

So of various things.
But if you're a sergeant orlower, you're somebody that's in
a black and white, you'redriving around the community,
you have regular contact withthe community, you have to do
what's also called perishableskills.

Steve Morreale (10:04):
I want to stop you for a minute because you use
that term.
It's not a term that we usuallyuse, especially on the East
Coast, but I understand whatthat would mean.
You can't come out of theacademy, shoot your gun a couple
of days and go back out on theroad and never shoot your weapon
That you have to continue sothat you understand muscle
memory and you understandthrough rootinization that you

can fire that gun and you canhandle it safely.
So perishable skills.
I understand there.
What are the other areas?

Matt O'Deane (10:32):
There's a lot of things that are post mandated.
Obviously the shooting butdriving, if you operate a motor
vehicle, arrest and control.
A relatively new requirement isuse of force, strategic
Then you have things that arerequired by the legislator, like
officers need eight hours offirst aid every two years and
they cover a lot of basic firstaid.

It's not making them aparamedic, but it's giving them
at least the foundation to kindof get that patient secured and
stabilized to some degree.
You know, while you're waitingfor the fire department to
arrive, there's a lot of likefor field training officers.
So you just take a new officerin your car and say, hey, you
know, this is your trainee.
I teach him how to be a cop.
They have to go to a 40 hourfield training officer course
and then every three years theywould need a 24 hour field

training officer update course.
They would also need an eighthour crisis intervention
training course.
So that would be just to be anFTO in good standing, right, and
then, as you promote throughyour career, if I make sergeant,
then I have to go through our80 hour post supervisor school.
Teach them all the foundationalthings that a sergeant would
need to know.
Then you maybe make lieutenant.
You'd go to our 104 hourmanagement school.

You make chief of police.
We have an 80 hour executiveschool and then we have these
are all required.
They are required if they want,if the officers want to obtain
post certification.
So once you get hired astypically how it works in
California you get hired as apolice officer.
Then the department sends youthrough the police.
The police academies aretypically about six months.
They vary a little bit.

There's between the 41academies.
Once you're done with that, youget out on the street.
You go through a field trainingofficer program.
So it's you and an FTO.
You go through multiple phases.
That's typically it has to be10 weeks, but typically it's 14
to 18 weeks.
You're with a training officer,then you're on probation.
It has to be a year.
Most departments are 18 months.

Steve Morreale (12:14):
Well, that's during that time.
Let me stop you because thatdoesn't always happen in
I like what you're saying.
Most of the time it's a oneyear probation and if
interceding is your academy,then you're in for the academy
for six months.
That means you're on probationfor six months and off you go.
What you're saying is the clockstarts ticking for probation
after you're out of the academy.

We have one year to keep an eyeon you, right?

Matt O'Deane (12:37):
One year is the minimum.
There are a handful ofdepartments that it's one, but
most departments actually opt tomake it 18 months.
They want to extend it, theywant a longer period of time to
properly evaluate this person,which is fine.
We encourage departments toexceed our qualifications.
They just can't go less.
So if a department said we onlywant to have, we want to in
exactly in your scenario.
We want to include the sixmonths of the academy in their

probationary time, no, not goingto happen.
I would deny that.
So it has to be 12 months onthe street because they're not a
police officer.
In the academy we consider thema trainee, or cadet in different
Once they graduate the academy,they raise the right hand, the
chief sheriff swears them in.
Now they have law enforcementauthority.
They work on the street andthen, once they're done with the
FTO and the probation, nowthey're typically have been on

the department for 24 months ortwo years.
At that point they get theirbasic post certificate that will
stay with them forever,assuming they don't now engage
in serious misconduct.
That's what can be pulled awayfrom them.
So during the first two yearsof their career they are given
which is relatively new.
It started one year ago.
In January 1st they get a proofof eligibility certificate.

So we equate it to kind of likea learner's permit.
Right, you get your, yourlearner's permit and then you
got to go out, you got to do thedriving school, you got to go
out with your dad or your mom ora friend or a family member and
they got to teach you how todrive.
And then, when you're competent, you get behind the wheel and
you got to convince the DMV thatyou're safe, right.
So if the officers engage inmisconduct say when they're on
the job for two weeks if you hadsomething like that crazy in

their FTO program and they dosomething inappropriate they
don't have a basic postcertificate to take from them
yet because they haven't been onlong enough to earn it we would
take their proof of eligibilitycertificate.
I see that's kind of thelicensing scheme is set up so
the vast majority of officerswill never engage in serious
Officers are very good peopleand you know 99% of the cases,

especially, you know, when youhave solid supervision and good
leadership, holds themaccountable and holds them to
task and keeps them on the rightmission and on the right path,
that goes a long way as well andthen they just advance.
So if then, once they makesergeant they want to get a
supervisory or management orexecutive because in California
most departments it's tied tocompensation.
So in my old office if I got myadvanced post certificates I

got 12% pay raise.
There was a lot of incentive.
And then it's an interestingformula how you get the
So if you're just a cop with noformal education, it'll take
you in nine years.
If you have a bachelor's degreeand you're a police officer,
you can get that samecertificate in four years.
Right, there's all differentranges of years training points.
So it's really meant toencourage officers to continue

their training, continue theirformal education and get these
advanced certifications quicker.
They can get compensated andyou know it typically helps you
promote and advance and itincreases your professionalism.

Steve Morreale (15:13):
So the industry, the profession.
One of the things that is a petpeeve of mine is that we have a
tendency to call all this stuffcontinuing education and yet in
other professions it is calledprofessional development, and I
wish that we could move towardschanging that nomenclature so
that people from the outsideunderstand what's continuing
education, what's in service?

It's professional development,and so what begins to make me
I'm quite impressed withCalifornia and what they do with
I think they're one of theleaders in the country, and what
troubles me again aboutpolicing is the way we advance
people, that we promote you, butwe don't prepare you for that

job until after you get the job.
So there's no preparation.
You know the military will dothat.
If you want to be a sergeant,then you're going to have to do
some training, you have to go tothe train.
It doesn't mean you're going toget promoted at that point in
time, but it gives you an ideaof what the expectation is.
Is it similar in Californiathat?
Is it a requirement?
I think you said that it is notnecessarily a requirement to go

to a sergeant, or to explainthat to me.

Matt O'Deane (16:17):
You're correct.
So in most cases, Most peopleare a corporal or a detective.
They get promoted to sergeant,let's say, and then once they've
been promoted within the firstyear, typically, depending on
availability of courses andstaffing issues and things like
that they'll go to the 80 hoursupervisors.

Steve Morreale (16:33):
Now, they do have a requirement.
Is it a requirement?

Matt O'Deane (16:35):
Yes, okay, if they don't go.
When I go there and I do mycompliance audit, I'll say, hey,
steve was promoted to sergeant14 months ago and I noticed that
he hasn't been to supervisorschool.
Please get him in.
And if you haven't gone,there's usually a reason.
They'll say hey, listen,Steve's the only sergeant we
We're down two sergeants.
There's no way Steve's going tosupervisor school right now.
We don't.
So they'll have someexplanation.

Or they'll say, okay, it wasn'tavailable.
Obviously, like when COVIDhappened, everything was shut
It created a backlog.
We've since recovered from that.
It is required because thosesergeants want and need that
certification to move on.
Now they can go as a corporal.
There's nothing that wouldprohibit, to your point, the
motivated corporal that wants toknow what they're getting into
or make themselves moremarketable, like when they go to

the interview panel.
They can say hey, and I putmyself through the supervisor
school or the department sent me.
They can go to the sergeantschool in advance.
We don't prohibit that.
But I can tell you it's more ofthe exception, not the rule, I

Steve Morreale (17:28):
Well, let's ask about this.
So here you are, a cop, asergeant, an investigator, a
supervisory investigator, andthen a commander, and I know
that you did some leadershiptraining.
How did you make thattransition?

Matt O'Deane (17:40):
Well, for me it's.
I'm not assigned to thelicensing division so, just like
any other government agency,we're different bureaus and
different responsibilities.
I'm the liaison to the actualpolice departments and private
presenters in my region, whichis very large.
It's very much a partnership.
Almost 28-year police officer,I'm very passionate about law
I love law enforcement.

I respect police and what theydo more than most people.
I go in there with a reallyloving heart and corrective
It's like I'm not here todiscipline you or slam you or
make you look bad.
I want to work with you to makeyour officers the best that
they can be, the safest thatthey can be.
Obviously, we want them to bein compliance.

As you know, there's a lot ofliability If you have an officer
that's out of compliance.
Let's say they graduated theacademy and they've been working
for five years now and they'venever gone to the range to
requalify or demonstrate thatthey can shoot properly and now
they get into anofficer-involved shooting.
Let's say, god forbid somebody,the suspect passes away.
Now there's all these lawsuitsand court cases and being
reviewed by the districtattorney's office.

It's helpful if that officer'sout of compliance and didn't
shoot the attorneys are going to.
It's going to create a lot ofliability.
I'm guessing you know highlyprobable you're going to pay a
lot out for failure to train.
Or, worse is, your officercould get injured or killed
because they don't have theskill set they need to do the
So that would be horrible.
You know you're puttingsomebody out there that's not
qualified would be incrediblyunethical and immoral in my


Steve Morreale (19:04):
So we're talking to Matt O'Dean and he is a
consultant, basically a fieldmanager, for Post and their
training and compliance with thepeace officer standards and
It's interesting, matt, and Iknow you've been around it is
very, very rare that officersare called peace officers.
It's more in the West and inthe East, although there is a

move to try to change that.
What's your perspective on thatterm?
Peace versus police officer?

Matt O'Deane (19:30):
Well, technically they're all peace officers.
I would say you know you arekeeping the peace.
I mean that's your objective.
How well they do it in certaincommunities is debatable, but we
oftentimes sub.
A lot of times they won't usepolice officer because sheriff
deputy, which is a lawenforcement or a peace officer,
is not a police officer.
They're a sheriff deputy oragent.
For the Department of Justicein California is a special agent

or supervisory agent, right?
So they don't all use the termpeace officer but they're really
synonymous terms peace officer,police officer, sheriff deputy,
special agent.
Honestly, they're all lawenforcement.
They're all under that bigumbrella.
They might operate underdifferent penal codes and have
different levels of authority,but generally they're all the
And I'm dealing with state,local, municipal, school

districts, colleges have theirown police departments, all the
way down to park rangers andspecial districts, transit
police things like thatAuthorities, yeah, yeah.
Railroad police officers,airport police officers.
So there's a lot of like reallyspecific roles and functions,
as you know, in the profession.
Which is one of the things thatI really liked about it is, you
know, if you, if you're workingin patrol and you don't like

that or you're getting kind ofsick of driving around and
working graveyard ship, take thetest, educate yourself, learn
how to be a detective, putyourself through some schools
and then start putting in forthese detective assignments.
You know getting good at doinginterviews, because most of the
detectives the court detectives,you know work during the days
when businesses are open andvictims are able to go talk to,
you know.
And then there's all thedifferent task forces.
Right, you know thespecializing narcotics and guns

and auto theft and sex crimes,and you know.
So just even in San Diegothere's over 30 different task
forces where state, local,federal all come together to
focus on very specific crimes.
They have more resourcesavailable to them.
So there's a lot ofopportunities, especially for
the officers that work hard,educate themselves, build their
You know they don't use theterm CV.

You know, in police work, likein academia, you know, you're
putting all your publicationsand all your presentations and
all the courses you've taught.
Law enforcement is a littlemore scaled down probably than
So you have to post one of thethings we keep a profile.
So from the day you start thepolice academy you have a
California post profile.
So every time you attend posttraining, no matter where it is
or who puts it on, if you'readded to a post roster, that

course is on your profile alongwith all your education,
assuming you send us yourtranscripts, all your
certificates, so that profileand it follows you.
If you switch from San Diegopolice to Los Angeles police, to
Fresno police, it's the sameprofile.
It'll just show from this dateto this date you worked here.
This date to this date youworked here and so on.
So they can pull up that profileand then it also says their
So now on the top it'll sayyou're active, you're inactive,

it's suspended, it's decertified.
So any police department that'sgoing to hire Matt Odean or
Steve Morielli, they're going tohave to go to post because
we're a lateral.
They're going to have to checkwith us to make sure there's no
misconduct that was reported.
They're going to have to checkwith us to make sure that your
training is good.
You went through a policeacademy up to date, that you are
hireable, and then they'regoing to put that in the
background file and then when weconsultants go there and look

at it, if I don't see it there,this guy's not eligible to be a
police officer.
Thank you for watching.

Steve Morreale (22:25):
Well, I want to go back to a question I posed a
few minutes back and we'retalking to Matt Odean.
He is a consultant for theCalifornia Post and a former
police commander.
Matt, when you're talking topolice chiefs and to the
training officers, what troublesthem?
What are they looking for?
What kind of guidance are theyasking for?
What's missing in training thatthey feel that they convey to

And if they do, how does thattravel back to Sacramento?

Matt O'Deane (22:53):
it's a kind of a reoccurring theme with again.
I work with 48 departments on aregular basis and then probably
another 70 on a semi-annualbasis from regions around me.
So I've met with hundreds ofchiefs of police and training
managers in the last couple ofyears alone.
They all have issues withstaffing and retention.
I don't think I have a singledepartment that's at full staff,

at full capacity.
They're all fighting for thesame people, the same pool.
So, quite honestly, thedepartments that have more
resources, more money, obviouslydon't have the same issues as
the smaller departments.
So in my area I've gotobviously very large, the
largest department in the state,the LA Sheriff's Department,
and Riverside and San Bernardinoare huge.
But then there's also otherreally big departments, like the

city of Chino and Ontario thathave good size departments,
several hundred officers, a lotof money, nice, beautiful
facilities, nice patrol cars.
If I'm a police officer, I'm ayoung guy looking to go to a
police department.
Why would I not want to go toOntario Police?
That's large and beautifulfacilities and they have a big
airport, international airport,or an Anaheim where they've got

all these sports teams andDisneyland right.
I know I can work all thesespecial events, a lot of
overtime opportunities, right.
Or I could go to a departmentout where I was just at this
week great departments.
But I was out in ImperialCounty where the entire county
has 200 police officers right,there's eight police departments
out there.
Some of the departments havethree, four officers right.
The entire police department isthree or four officers right.

So completely different dynamic.
They do a great job.
Obviously they're hurting forpeople as well.
So they're trying to get peoplein the local community to work
there, because if you go outthere and you work and you're
not from there, I mean, quitehonestly, you'd probably go
It's a bunch of fields and cowsand things like that.
One of the issues they have ispeople will go out there,
they'll get hired, they'll go tothe academy, they'll get
After a year they leave andthey go inland right.

So these departments are like atraining ground, spending all
their time and money trainingthese people only to have them
leave, yes, right.
So that happens a lot, keepingthe people you have, having
money to do the training like.
Sometimes I'll have chiefs sayto me you know having a real
hard time getting in compliancethis cycle.
We just our training budget'sbeen slashed.
We're understaffed.
I'm already burning my guys out.
They're working a lot ofovertime which.

Of course, is not a legal excuse, as we know.
It's like well, do the best youcan, and then you will just
have to justify and document thereasons why they're out of
compliance, and hopefully itdoesn't bite you.

Steve Morreale (25:08):
Well, I was just going to say that eventually,
that could bite you in thebehind and you can make all
kinds of excuses.
It's interesting that inCalifornia these are
requirements and yet arequirement sometimes can be
written off because thepolitical side the equivalent of
the legislature for a town or acity says we're cutting your

budget for training, which iscrazy.
It should be something that weshould put more money into.
It's really kind of crazy.
Now you're, you spend a lot oftime in classrooms now and you
have a teacher mindset andthat's troubling to me, as I
presume it would be to you thatthe general public would take
training so in such alaissez-faire point of view that
it's not important.
We certainly want our doctorsto know how to conduct surgery,

we want our pilots to figure outhow to fly the newest plane and
have proper training, and Ithink that expectation is of
But if budgets can be easilycut for training, don't you see
that as problematic?
It's hugely problematic.

Matt O'Deane (26:04):
There are some remedies, as you know.
That can be done.
You can do good trainingin-house.
You could have a new officer intheir FTO and maybe you have a
little lull in calls for serviceand you could get a couple of
officers together and you canpractice proper search entries
or proper ways to approach avehicle.

Steve Morreale (26:19):
But that's not certified Right.

Matt O'Deane (26:21):
That doesn't mean it's not.
That's correct.
It's not post-certified.
But all training doesn't needto be post-certified, no matter
what state you work in.
Okay, it can be documented intheir internal training file.
Yes, they're not going to getCPT credit for it, but they can
I had that my first week on thejob.
I've been here four and a halfyears almost at post.
Almost my second day on the jobmy boss came to me and showed

me a newspaper article One of mydepartments that it says 90% of
this particular department areaudit compliance.
So somebody got the information, went to their local reporter,
made the department lookhorrible.
So we got on a plan.
I met with the department thefirst week.
The chief's like yeah, I'm thenew chief, I've been here for
two months and I got a citycouncil meeting next week and
we're going to talk about thisarticle.
You know, hopefully I'm stillthe chief next week when you

come back and talk to me.
He was able to go there and get$260,000 released from the city
to get the entire department incompliance.
And then I worked with them tocreate a couple of courses that
they did not have the ability toteach in-house.
One of the things they wererelying on the sheriff's
department to provide thistraining, which is great, like
in Riverside County for exampleis super advanced, fantastic law

I'm a great sheriff'sdepartment, beautiful training
So if they have a huge staffthey will train the smaller ages
, like out in Palm Desert yougot Palm Springs in Cathedral
City and Indio and Desert HotSprings and Blythra.
So those departments they cando the training in-house, which
sometimes they do, but a lot oftimes they'll go over to the
sheriff's department because thesheriff's does a great job and
they can meet with all the otherdepartments.
There's a lot of networkinggoing on and you can see how

other departments do things.
There's a lot of side benefitsto that.
But at the end of a trainingcycle, so every two years the
cycle begins again.
So we are halfway through thecurrent cycle in California.
So every department when I meetwith them I'm like hey, how are
we doing on training?
How are you looking?
Some departments are hey, we're72% done.
Hey, fantastic, you only needto get the other 28% done in the
next year.
You're doing great.

Some have not even started yet,zero.
So I'm like okay, you knowthey're still in compliance, but
waiting till the end is notnecessarily the best approach,
but it's what they got to do forwhat they're dealt and what
they're given and that's why itposts.
You know, a lot of the trainingthat we certify is free.
I mean, we reimburse.
We have, I believe, over $110million budget.
A huge part of our budget atpost is reimbursing the agency.

So if you're going to go to a40 hour supervisory school or
internal affairs investigationschool up in Los Angeles and you
live in San Diego and you gothere, the department can put in
a training reimbursementrequest to me and we will
reimburse things such as theirhotel, their rental car, their
private expenses.
Right, yes, some of it.

Obviously not all of it, butthere are meals to make it more
reasonable for the department tosend the person.
So, we do a lot of that orthings like the supervisory
leadership institutes eightmonth program.
They go three days a month foreight months, or command college
or the executive.
There's no cost, so we payeverything.
We say, hey, send this sergeantfor three days a month for the
next eight months.
It's going to cost you nothingother than, obviously, the
person's salary and the factthat they're gone from your

You're going to have to absorbthat.
But back, backfill, and even insome courses not a lot, but
some of them we will pay for thebackfill as well.
So if you're going to go to thatschool and it's a backfill
approved class post, we will paymy overtime to cover your 40
hours you're gone, so that youcan go to that course and that's
in things that are, like,really really important.
We call it a plan one, likeinterview and interrogation.

That's a plan one so we putsuch a high priority on the fact
that they can interview andinterrogate someone properly and
legally and so that anyinformation they obtain is
actually admissible in a courtof law.
They're not violating theperson's rights, et cetera.
We make that course a plan oneso that that department really
has less excuses to go.

Steve Morreale (29:51):
Let me continue.
We're talking about Odin.
He is with California Post andasking questions about training
and compliance and the issuesthat are going on in policing.
As someone who has createdcourses college courses both of
us, who's doing that for postshave you been able to watch an
idea, a concept, a requirementtake shape in terms of training?

How has the training regimendeveloped?

Matt O'Deane (30:18):
That's a great question.
So I do this quite a bit.
So what'll typically happen isactually, this week several.
So I had a call from one of mydepartments that says hey, we
want to teach a two-day patrolrifle course at our department
that we don't currently offer.
So the first thing is that's OK, we need to go into the catalog
and we need to see what'savailable in the region now.
So let's say, as an example,they want to create a course but

two police departmentsliterally down the street have
the same course and it's got lowenrollment every time.
So, rather than them creating athird one which is only going to
contribute to the lowenrollment problem of the
existing couple ones down thestreet.
I would probably encourage them.
Hey, send your officers to that.
We encourage a lot ofregionalization, helping each
other out, publishing thecourses.
If you've got a space, helpyour brother and sister out and

let them go.
So that would be the first step.
Or then we'd say, ok, you wantthat course?
The very first thing I makethem do is give me a training
needs assessment form.
So I say I need to make sure,before I approve this course,
that there's an unmet or ongoingneed in this area for this
So I'm not going to spend thetime and energy to create this
course, build the course outline, make the budget, make the
safety plan, certify all theinstructors, only to have nobody

So it's similar in colleges,right?
If I'm teaching at thecommunity college and I don't
get 25 students to sign up, myclass is probably going to get
canceled, right?
So it's not worth it to thecollege to run the course based
on what they're bringing in andwhat they're paying me and the
cost of the facilities.
It's just.
They would just rather cancelthe class.
So it's very similar in apolice department.
But typically there is a needbecause they're asking for it

and they want it and obviouslythey know what they need.
So, assuming there's an unmetneed and I'll typically survey
all the training managers.
So when I meet with thetraining managers, you know I'll
be in a room with 35, 40training managers, you know a
representative from every policedepartment in Riverside County.
And then I meet with the samegroup up in San Bernardino
County and then at Los Angeleshas two similar groups.
I will say, hey, listen, thisperson wants to create this

Are you going to send yourpeople?
If it's crickets in there andpeople are like no, we don't
need it, we already have one,then I'm going to tell them hey,
unfortunately there's not aneed for this course.
If they say, yes, we've beenlooking for that class, we are
looking forward to this gettingdone.
As soon as it's done I hope Ican get five spots.
Obviously, within that classmoves forward, they have to
create an expanded courseoutline for the course, every
outline of every class.
Again, you can see them on opendata dot, post, dot, cagov.

They're basically your standardoutline.
You know, to the third degreeof detail.
It's not a full lesson plan,it's not every instruction, for
if I, you know, I break my legon the way to class and I give
it to you, you can see.
Hey, you know, have them dothis activity.
It's just the kind of thebullet points of what you're
going to cover.

Steve Morreale (32:44):
An overview.

Matt O'Deane (32:44):
Yep, an overview, right, and then how long it's
going to take?
Right, you got to say it's atwo hour class, a four hour,
eight hour, a 40.
How you're going to break thatcontent down, how much time are
you going to spend?
Now, if it's a class that hasspecific requirements, like the
legislator says, this coursewill talk about these five
things or these 10 things, thenthat's got to be right up its
front and center on page one.
I need to make sure you know ifthey're teaching a baton course

, it have to say it have to haveproper baton strikes, areas
where you can strike in.
Areas where you can't strike,you know rendering aid once
you've maintained control of thesuspect.
So if I see it's a baton courseand it doesn't have those
topics, I mean it's immediatelydenied.
I kick it back to him and say,hey, this needs to be corrected,
you're missing this and thisand this.
I might even give him anexample, a one that's a good
example to use as a kind of a goby.

So we'll go back and forth onthese outlines, in some cases
many times, before it's in agood shape to approve.
Then they enter everything inour system, our EDI system,
electronic data interchange,certain courses.
Again, there's regulations thatrequire all this stuff.
So regulation 1070, for example, requires that an instructor of
various topics be a certifiedinstructor.
I've never been to firearmsinstructor school.

I've been shooting for 30 years, pretty good shot, but you
couldn't put me in your firearmscourse.
I'm not a post certifiedfirearms instructor.
So if I didn't see that on theresume and the person's in a
perishable skills firearms class, then obviously they're done.
I said this person's notqualified.
So we make sure all thoserequirements are there.
Obviously you can't go to theFTO, you know you can't go to an
FTO update class if you're notan FTO.
So there's like prerequisitescommon in academia.

You know you have to do partone of the class before you do
part two or part three.
So we have kind of that stuff.
And then if the course requiresa safety plan, which if it's
anything where an officer canreally get injured or killed
basically all the perishableskills or anything where there's
a manipulative skills they gotto do a safety plan and we have
a sample publication on whatthat is.
So obviously if you're goinginto a classroom, if you're

going into a less lethal courseand you're going to go into a
munitions house where theofficers are going to be
shooting each other with paintbullets that are Filled with
paint instead of a bullet.
Right, there's no way that'sgonna happen without those
officers being searched, alltheir magazines Removed, their
gun checked right, we're gonnacheck their pockets and then
they're gonna be given magazineswith the paint rounds in it.
Right, we don't want to have anaccident where an officer

leaves alive.
We're, as you know, so that allhas to be articulated in a
safety plan, and there's ahundred different things that
they would have to do in thatclass For me to be satisfied
that it's gonna be done safely,because I don't want an officer
injured and that's your role.

Steve Morreale (35:05):
Your role that's to guide and kind of manipulate
and push whoever is thesubmitter to improve it until it
meets the criterion.
That post has that A fairstatement.

Matt O'Deane (35:16):
It's a back and it's like I play.
We consider we're playing pingpong.
You know, they send it to me.
It's in my queue.
I look at it.
I could type comments.
You know, please fix this, fixthis, address this a safety plan
, I go.
Okay, where are you gonna teachthe class?
Well, we're gonna teach it atLAPD and LA sheriffs and
Riverside sheriffs, okay.
Well, the safety plan needs tohave.
Who's the person in charge ofthose three facilities?
Where's the nearest hospital,each of those facilities, if I

get shot at that facility?
Where's the trauma kit?
If we're gonna be rollingaround on a mat doing arrest and
What's the procedure to cleanthese mats Right?
Are they cleaned with bleach?
You know, I don't want to getsome kind of Mercer or some kind
of disease from the dirty matand every single topic.
I mean there's quite a bit in acanine course the dog muzzle
when they're in the classroom.
We don't want to have the dogget scared and bite somebody or

There's just many, manyVariables.
Yeah, obviously they have tohave a proper ratio, you know.
So if you said, hey, I'm gonnateach a firearms class, I'm the
only instructor and I'm gonnahave 20 students on the line.
No way I'm approved.
It would be impossible for youto properly watch 20 different
Make sure they're propertechnique.
You know they're locking theirslide back, they're reloading

It's just not gonna happen.
That's in that class.
I would require a five to oneratio for every five students.
I want one instructor stand.
So those are just some of thethousands of examples we look
But once they Get it all doneand it meets our qualifications,
then it's post approved or postcertified and then they have to
run it one time before we'lleven reimburse them for any kind
of Tuitions.

And then we'll usually have ourQAP.
People come in there, ourquality assistance program, so
it's retired guys like you or mehere and they'll go and they'll
sit in the back and thenthey'll sit there for the for
the three-day class and theyevaluate it.
They write very detailedevaluations on the instructors,
the facilities.
They have the outline in frontof them.
They make sure that you'refollowing the script, that
you're covering what you'resaying, that the activities were

engaging right, and thenthey're all master instructors.
They all went through a longseries of Instruction that post
requires for to be an evaluatorand then they'll write all these
comments hey, it was a goodclass.
You know, we recommend maybe youdo this to kind of drive this
key point home, or you fix thiskind of.
You know, I like academia whenyour dean sits in the back of

the class and evaluates one ofyour courses.
Right, are you doing whatyou're saying you're doing?
Or maybe they do it come.
You know, promotion time orevaluation time same thing, yes,
so we do that.
And then, of course, if there'sany complaints about a course
which is very rare, but if acomplaint comes in, hey, I
didn't think this was safe, Ididn't think this was
Whatever, they're not teachingwhat they're supposed to be
teaching, I might suspend thecourse until I can conduct an

investigation into thatcomplaint, because we want to
make sure all the courses thatwe put our name on and me in
particular, if I'm putting MattOdine on the bottom of it I want
to make sure that it's legit,it's proper.

Steve Morreale (37:51):
So we're talking to Matt Odine and we're talking
about training in detail andhow it is done in California and
how it's certified and Some ofthe issues that are cropping up
that he's hearing from bothpolice chiefs and training
Let's just go one more stab atthat.
When you're talking to policechiefs, besides recruiting and
retention, what are theirconcerns?

Matt O'Deane (38:12):
They have general concerns.
I think across the board thatjust the quality of the people
coming into the profession arenot like they used to be.
This is not just ageneralization.
I'm there's lots of good people, certainly, but they're not as
They just as happy to be apolice officer.
If it doesn't work out, they'llgo to the fire department or
they'll go be a paramedic.
It seems like 10, 20 years agothere was much more Enthusiasm,

if you will, for the job orinsert uncertainty that this is
what I want to do.
Yes, this is what I want to do.
They're not finding themselvesright because you spend a lot of
time and money and energy toget a police officer, from the
day they apply to the day theygraduate the police academy.
You know that could be a yearlater.
You've gone through the entirehiring process right

Psychological, medical, payingyour investigators, getting all
this stuff, paying them to go tothe police academy, you know,
not so reduced rate.
Obviously they're not gettingfull peace officer pay in most
cases, but they're gettingcompensated, they're getting
benefits and things like that,and only to find out that they
don't like it.
So they're trying to encouragethings like explore programs and
cadet programs and reserves andkind of develop people younger,

developing a pipeline of people, getting them involved at an
earlier age.
But quite honestly, there's youget a lot of feedback from the
defund the police movement in alot of the large cities in our
I have a son that's 20 yearsold and I've honestly thought he
would follow in my footstepsand be a police officer and talk
to him about it, and he told mejust a couple months ago.
He says, dad, you know, justlistening to all the crap you

talk about, no offense, but Idon't want to be a police
He wants to be amultimillionaire.
He says good luck with that.
I want you to be amultimillionaire to maybe you
can pay off my mortgage and buyme my 69 GTO that I want.
How are you gonna become amultimillionaire?
He has no actual no plan yet.
Yeah, hopefully he comes upwith a plan, right, he's just
it's gonna occur by osmosis orsomething.
He's not interested in being acop because he sees all this

crap on the news and he seeswhat the police are going
And he didn't have the samecommitment I did.
I mean, I knew in sixth gradethat was my only.
I only had plan a.
I didn't even envision doinganything else.
I didn't think of any otherthing.
That was my only plan.
So I don't know what I wouldhave done if I didn't achieve my

Steve Morreale (40:12):
Quite honestly Are you pleased with your role?
In this oversight position withpolicing seems like it's a
great transitional position foryou.

Matt O'Deane (40:20):
It really is.
I tell you, post is a reallyfantastic organization and I'm
not just saying that because Iworked there.
I mean they really pick andchoose the best people from the
I mean there's over 90,000police officers in California.
It's huge, and there's a verylimited.
There's only, you know, 30consultants in a post.
So to even be a post consultant, you have to be a lieutenant or
When my spot opened, I rememberI believe it was me and eight

other people going for it, andthese are not eight.
They were good.
I feel very fortunate toobviously to have gotten the job
I think I got it because I wasin a training role and I had
already used the post databaseson a regular basis.
I already created a verycomprehensive or co-created, you
know a very comprehensive threeweek leadership institute in
San Diego County.
That's still going to this daySan Diego County Regional

Leadership Institute.
So proud of that.
And they turned it over toreally good people when I left
and it's only gotten better andimproved and grown since.
So all of that helped me.
And then, of course, having myPhD in formal education and of
course they liked the teachingexperience because at post I
teach courses for post as well.
I teach a two day course calledthe training coordinator course
where we teach new trainingcoordinators.

My partner and I teach it fouror five times a year throughout
the state to teach them how todo exactly the last question.
You asked me how to build acourse, exact step by step
How much can you charge?
What do you need to do?
What qualifications do theinstructors need?
What facilities do you need?
Because some departments wantto do training but they're never
going to get approved becausethey don't have a proper

facility or safe facility to doit.
Post has awesome people and it'svery mentally stimulating,
especially now, I think, becausethere's been so many changes.
For the first time ever, postscan decertify folks and you hit
on something earlier where youhave a regulation where cops
need to be trained.
And at the end of a cycle, whenI look at the compliance report
, I say hey, you have 100officers.
These six are not in compliance.

What gives what happened?
Well, they have an excuse.
Sometimes it's a good excuse.
Hey, you know, matt was gonefor the last 18 months.
He was deployed in the militaryserving our country or out of
danger, or out of danger orsomething.
Or Matt got shot and he's beenout for the last year and a half
recovering from his gunshotwounds.
So clearly there are goodexcuses, right.
But that has to be documentedin their files so that five

years later, when we're all goneand they just see that Matt was
out of compliance and nobody'sgoing to know.
But one of the things that isbeing discussed now in fact was
just discussed at the postcommission meeting the other day
is now officers can only bedecertified for engaging in
serious misconduct.
There's nine areas that if theydo one of those nine things, it
could end up getting themdecertified after we, after

after all their due processright, the investigation, the IA
at the department level, thenit goes to the advisory board,
then it goes to the commission,then if the commission rules
against them, they can actuallygo to an administrative law
judge and have an evidentiaryhearing.
So yeah, there's a lot of steps, obviously, and nobody's gone
through that whole process yet.
The first two guys went throughthe first step yesterday.
So we'll see how it all playsout.

But but the training side of itis not incorporated.
I know there are states where atthe end of a cycle, if you're
out of compliance with yourtraining.
They'll say hey, Steve, I knowyou were busy or busy guy, you
didn't shoot.
So your peace officer powersare suspended until you get to
the range and you shoot and youprovide evidence.
Does that you shot?
Many states are like that.
California is not.
I think we will be there in afew years.
We are going that directionbecause right now we have no

So what happens if I don'ttrain?
I've had chiefs ask me that.
What happens if my guys are outof compliance?
Matt, what are you going to do?
To me I said Well, I'm notgoing to decertify them, I'm not
going to take them off thestreet.
That would be worse potentially.
But be advised when this guydoes something and you get sued,
don't be surprised when you'repaying out an extra 5 million or
whatever because they made anissue out of it.

Steve Morreale (43:51):
I think you hit on something there too, and that
is that so many times eventhink about accreditation and
certification, those kinds ofthings I'm talking about from
clear, from a stateaccreditation.
It is not required, it'svoluntary, and I think I hate to
impose requirements, but Ithink if we're going to be seen
as a true professionalorganization, just like
hospitals, then you have to gothrough an accreditation or you

can't be a certified policedepartment.
You understand what I'm sayingand I think you, as the post,
you need some meat behindholding people accountable,
right setting expectations ofholding people accountable and
being able to suspend maybe notdecertify, but to suspend.
So we need to wind down.
Matt, I wanted to thank you forbeing here.
We've been talking with MattO'Deane.
He is an adjunct professor, heis a consultant in training for

California POST, and we go backa good long way before we leave.
In your mind if you had a magicwand and could be the king or
the queen for the day, whatwould you want to add for police
departments to be competent?

Matt O'Deane (44:56):
Well, I think the state's going in the right
I think that the educationrequirements are probably one of
the biggest things that'schanging Right now.
To be a police officer inCalifornia you only need to go
to high school and theprofession takes a lot of flack
for that because it's a very lowbar.
So you could maybe not evengraduate high school.
With the rest of your class youcan go back and get the GED.
You would be fine that AB89,recent legislated just changed.

So the California CommunityColleges are working to have
where you're going to have tohave a degree in modern policing
, basically a two-year AA degreeor a bachelor's degree in any
subject, but a bachelor's levelto be a police officer.
So that's probably going to bean effect.
Obviously, things could changein two years time.
I'm guessing all the peoplethat are current police officers
would be grandfathered in, butanybody new coming to the

profession would have to havetwo-year degrees.
So I would say it'd be a loteasier to get that done when
you're 18 years old and yougraduate high school and then go
to college.
When you're 19 and 20, get thatAA done, because you can't go
to the police academy untilyou're 20 and a half can't be a
police officer in Californiaunless you're 21 years of age
when you get sworn in.
There's no more 18, 19-year-oldpolice officers.
You got to be 21.

I'm a huge supporter of thatbecause I'm a big fan of
But I also know I have workedwith people that have multiple
master's degrees, and the otherpartner I work with was a former
and eight-year Marine Corpsveteran.
I would rather work with thatMarine Corps veteran every
single day of the week than theguy with two master's degrees in
some cases.
So just having a formaleducation by itself is no

No guarantee, but I do see it'sbeen my personal experience
that the officers I work withthat have some education just
seem to be.

Steve Morreale (46:29):
I haven't done scientific studies yet they just
seem to be a little bit betterin how they talk to people.

Matt O'Deane (46:35):
They quite honestly just seem to get less
complaints because they're justa little more socially aware.
They know when they need tocontrol their emotions.
You want to be intelligent.
You want to have emotionalintelligence.
Somebody yells at me and callsme names.
I could care less.

Steve Morreale (46:47):
It's almost impossible to hurt my feelings
to be honest with you WhetherI'm decent or not, and you know
that because when you were mychair you used to yell at me a
lot, but I appreciate it.

Matt O'Deane (46:58):
I appreciate you kept me on task.
So I would say in a perfectworld, if I were king I would
say anybody that wants to be apolice officer has to maybe
register their intent orsomething when they're 18 years
old and they start theireducation and training when
they're 18, that when they're 21, 22.
A lot of other countries, likeyou know in Ireland you're very
familiar how detailed it is andadvanced it is to be a police
officer they almost kind ofcombine the academia and the

practical application from theacademy into one large three,
four year venture, not just asix month thing.
So I think that would go a longway into.
Obviously you have a lot oflimitations on what you can
teach someone in six months.
We know this.
If they have all other courses,more advanced courses, I think
it's all a good thing.
I'm just a little concernedthat if the officer has no

education when they get hiredwhich the way that the proposal
is written now they can do it.
So now they get hired, now theygo to the academy, which is
more than a full time job.
It's like having a full timejob and probably another part
time job or full time job on topof that just to keep up with
the academics and everythingelse.
Then you're in the fieldtraining program.
That's incredibly stressful.
Your field training officer isprobably volunteering you for

every crime that occurs to getyour skill set up.
So you're on your weekends.
It's not uncommon they might gointo the police department and
sit there all day on Saturdayjust catching up on the reports
because they're slower thantheir counterparts that know
what they're doing.
So you're going to be hard togo to school at that point.
Now you're on probation as apolice officer.
You're trying to learneverything and not screw up and
get fired.
Then you got to go to schooland get this degree, because if

you don't have your degree bythe time you reach the end of
that 24 months, we won't giveyou your basic post certificate.
Therefore you're fired.
Well, you're not.
Maybe you're not fired, but youcan't be a cop.
So unless your department has aposition as a dispatcher or
something else that you can do,you're not going to be certified
as a police officer.
So if I were in control I wouldhave all that front loaded, not
after they get hired.

Steve Morreale (48:45):
No, I understand and that makes perfect sense,
and that seems like a waste oftime, energy and money for a
state, for a city, for a townand certainly for the person who
thought they were launching acareer and all of a sudden, the
career goes away.
Well, Matt, thank you so muchfor your time and for your
Thanks very much for being withus.

Matt O'Deane (49:02):
Well thank you, steve.
I love your podcast, love you.
Appreciate everything you'vedone for me in my life.
I really do.
You're my number one academicmentor.
You really know your stuff.
So hopefully I'll see you atsome more academic conferences
down the line, you know, downthe road.

Steve Morreale (49:14):
So thank you Down the road.
So thank you.
We've been talking to MattO'Deane In California.
You've been listening to TheCopDoc Podcast.
Another episode is now on thebooks.
Thanks very much for listening.
Keep listening.
We keep growing and appreciateit.
We'll have other episodescoming up.
Have a good day, Thank you.

Intro-Outro (49:32):
Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr.
Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
Please tune into The CopDocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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