October 24, 2023 • 46 mins
Season 6 - Episode 114 -The CopDoc Podcast
Ever wondered about the bridge between law enforcement and academia? Today, we take you on a journey with Dr. Mike Birzer, a former sheriff's lieutenant who left and rose to become an esteemed academic at Wichita State University. We talk about his unique career path, shedding light on his teaching in Criminal Justice and the influence of his law enforcement background on his approach to research and teaching.
We explore some of the most pressing issues in contemporary policing with Dr. Berzer. We tackle the often overlooked viewpoint of criminals, shedding light on the rich insights this perspective can offer. Highlighting the importance of situational analysis and discretion, we delve into Birzer's work with Paul Cromwell on a book offering criminal perspectives and a current project focusing on differential police response to low-risk, low-harm calls.
As we finish our conversation, we delve into the sensitive issue of police reform and community trust, guided by the wisdom of Dr. Birzer. Reflecting on the journey of police reformer, OW Wilson, we contemplate his significant steps to improve the police department and examine how this historical narrative can inform modern practices.
The chat focuses light on the reception of law enforcement in academic settings and acknowledges the challenges faced by students in criminal justice departments. We underscore the crucial role of reflective learning and continuing education in shaping future police academies and the burgeoning potential of collaboration between academic institutions and practitioners. Join us, as we uncover the intricate dance between academia and practitioners to chart a promising path for policing.
Contact us: copdoc.podcast@gmail.com
Website: www.copdocpodcast.com
If you'd like to arrange for facilitated training, or consulting, or talk about steps you might take to improve your leadership and help in your quest for promotion, contact Steve at stephen.morreale@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Intro/Outro (00:02):
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopD oc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
CopD oc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:36):
Well, hello everybody.
This is Steve Morreale, comingfrom Boston.
You are listening to The CopDoc Podcast.
We have another episodestarting and I'm talking to a
colleague out in Kansas City.
He is from Wichita, Kansas, buthe's in Kansas City today, dr
Mike Birzer from Wichita StateUniversity.
Hello there, michael.
Hello, thank you for having me.
Thanks so much.
First of all, I've beenwatching you from afar for a
(00:58):
long time.
We've talked once on the phone.
I loved your work aboutandrogogy to use it in police
training, never mind in our ownclassrooms And so I know you are
an avid writer, are certainlyan author, you're a professor
you're a former law enforcementofficer.
Talk about how you ended upcoming out of policing and into
academia.
Mike Birzer (01:17):
You know, Dr.
Morreale, that was not planned.
When I entered policing, ofcourse, at a young age, I
thought that was it.
That's all I wanted to do.
Actually, that's all I wantedto do since I was about 16 years
old and joined a sheriff'scadet program in Wichita, and
the rest is history.
So, of course, I was anon-traditional college student.
I didn't think initially Ineeded to go to college.
(01:39):
I just wanted to be a cop andthat was it.
And so I got into policing andthen suddenly realized, you know
, maybe I need to go to college,and so I worked my way through
my undergraduate degree And thena master's really wasn't even
on the table.
And then I thought you know,maybe a master's degree might
not hurt.
And so I went back and got mymaster's degree.
(02:00):
And that's when it really itreally hit me that I liked
research, i like this stuff, ilike learning about theory and
research and methodology, and soit was a question when I earned
the master's degree what do Ido now?
And in Wichita at the time keepin mind distance education,
online education just wasn'tthere.
Yes, and you know I was facedwith the dilemma where do I go
(02:22):
get a doctorate?
from Wichita, kansas, wichitaState had minimal doctorates at
that time that they wereoffering, and I started looking
around and found a program atOklahoma State And it was in the
educational studies area And itwas adult, continuing
occupational education.
And so I applied for theprogram and went down for an
(02:42):
interview At that time they wereinterviewing all the candidates
and met with chair of theprogram at that time And he said
well, you know, he said you'rebecoming in kind of a non
traditional if you're going towork through work.
And that's what I needed to do.
I was in my career And theyaccepted me in the program And
he said you know, we'll consideryou in residence as long as you
get down here for classes.
So I was convincedfour-and-a-half on about a year
(03:03):
journey back and forth fromWichita to Stillw ater, Oklahoma
, which is a 140-mile round tripseveral times a week, and at
the time I had a captain thatwas just a great guy.
He allowed me to flex, do someflex hours And that's how I kind
of ended up in academia andthen hit 18 years in policing
And I was about ready to finishmy doctorate, defend my
(03:24):
dissertation, and theopportunity came up in Ada,
Oklahoma, the university calledEast Central University And it's
just a small school.
I had an opportunity to goteach there And so I had a real
big decision to make.
You know, do I leave policingand go hit an inner end to
academia at this point where Istick out policing a few more
years?
this chance would have it.
I ended up retiring early frompolicing and then moving to
(03:46):
eight Oklahoma for my first yearas an academic.
Steve Morreale (03:49):
So let me ask you this then how far away was
Ada from where you are inWichita?
Mike Birzer (03:54):
It's about a three and a half hour drive.
Steve Morreale (03:56):
Okay, so it's not close.
Mike Birzer (03:58):
Southeast Oklahoma.
Steve Morreale (04:00):
I got you, so I you know I use the term a lot
And I'm sure you've heard it awhole bunch of you.
Don't use it yourself.
You're a pro academic, you're apractical guy, somebody who did
the job and certainly for anoff long time, rose up to be a
lieutenant, went back to schoolas a non-traditional student And
, as I was, i think that you'redifferent in the classroom, as
professors now understand.
When you have police officersin your classroom, it's almost
(04:20):
like you have a graduateassistant or a teacher's aide.
And again, i think I can seesome similarities that I never
saw myself as somebody who hadthe capacity to earn a doctorate
.
And yet here we are and givingback to students.
So you are writing, you areteaching.
Talk about Wichita State andthat criminal justice department
(04:41):
.
How big is it?
What are the courses you'reteaching?
Mike Birzer (04:43):
So Wichita State University actually we kind of
pride ourselves on having one ofthe I wouldn't say the oldest,
but one of the older programs inthe country actually was
started back in the 1930s by arenowned chief, ow Wilson, when
he was chief.
Steve Morreale (04:57):
I've never heard of him.
Yeah, i'm kidding, yeah.
Mike Birzer (05:01):
Imagine that.
Yeah, So it initially Wilsonstarted it.
He had this wonderfulrelationship when he arrived in
Wichita He really worked closelywith Wichita State at the time
And so it started as a policescience program Wilson's command
staff talks about the policeforces at the university And
gradually over the course of theyears it evolved into a full
(05:23):
service criminal justice degreewhere students can study, be
seeing corrections for judicial,et cetera, et cetera.
We have right now in ourgraduate program approximately
25 active graduate students Andthen our undergraduates, a
couple of hundred.
And then we have a forensicscience program as well which
has really taken off and donevery well, And there's probably
(05:44):
40 or 50 majors there.
And then we have a homelandsecurity program which is doing
very well with another probably50, 60 students studying
homeland security, And that'sthe school of criminal justice.
What's your area of choice toteach?
My area primarily focuses onpolicing And I do teach some of
our methodology courses.
I do qualitative researchmethods And I do advance, Love
(06:07):
quality, I love quality, I loveteaching that And advanced
research methods for ourgraduate students, which really
is just more of a graduateintroduction to methods, because
a lot of our students arecoming in.
They didn't have that muchpreparation methodology.
So yeah, law enforcementrelated courses.
Steve Morreale (06:23):
So let me tell you my experience But in a
classroom and certainly I'vebeen at this for, i don't know,
18 to 20 years since I retiredfrom law enforcement That when I
started there was about 50% ofthe school for the students who
wanted to be in policing And Iwould say that has dwindled to
maybe 20%.
That's anecdotal at best, butthere certainly is less interest
in going into policing.
But so many other areas youjust talked about it's
(06:45):
cybersecurity and securityitself and home insecurity, and
there's so many other optionsout there.
Are you seeing the same thingout your way?
Absolutely.
Mike Birzer (06:53):
I have seen that over the course of my career And
I think right now for us whereI'm seeing the interest is in
Homeland Security Studies.
A lot of students are beginningto gravitate to that area
Forensics initially.
We see students that come inand they are interested in the
forensics But it's a heavyscience program.
It's heavy in the sciences Anda lot of students they'll get in
(07:14):
a year They decide this is waytoo much science that I want to
do or deal with.
But yeah, you're absolutelycorrect, and it comes down and
somebody want to go into policework.
Steve Morreale (07:25):
And it's a shame .
It's unfortunate, because Ithink in our society, and in
democratic society, we needpolice.
There certainly have been underfire agencies.
By the same token, i see aneffort to reform, whether it's
forced upon them or it's doingit themselves, so there is some
forward momentum.
Problem is, though, mike and bythe way, we're talking to Mike
Berzer, he is a professor atWichita State, dr Mike Berzer,
(07:47):
out there in Kansas And what Ibegin to worry about and I'm
sure you were in the classroomand we're talking and Floyd
incident happens and you say,well, okay, that's an outlier.
And then something else happens, and well, that's an outlier,
but the more it happens, themore difficult it is to convince
people that this is not rampant.
How do you handle that?
How do you address that, notonly with students, but people
(08:09):
who know you're in a criminaljustice education field?
How do you address that?
Mike Birzer (08:13):
It is a challenge.
The thing that I try to conveyto students in the classroom in
one of these fortunate incidentshas occurred is they don't let
this deter you, particularlythose that are interested in
police work as a career.
Use this as an opportunity togo in and make things better.
And I also use that sameargument Things that we know we
really need to do in thecriminal justice system to make
(08:34):
it more a fairer system.
And I convince a lot of mystudents and I know some of the
students come in and they're alittle bit, believe it or not,
anti-criminal justice.
So I try to reinforce upon themthat you know, use this
opportunity to go in and makethings better.
If you think we need to reformand change And certainly there
are areas that we need to take alook at- No question about that
.
Steve Morreale (08:53):
It's a challenge .
It is a challenge It is.
It is for me too.
So we talk an awful lot on thispodcast about leadership and
about organizational change andorganizational dynamics and
culture, and that's a lot ofwhat you write about and what
you research.
I'd like to take you down aroad for a moment about
Andragogy, and I want to tellyou this story.
Mike, i remember having aconversation and I'm sure you've
(09:16):
had this experience.
You come from a policebackground and you walk on
campus.
It's a completely differentculture.
You're shaking your head, wouldyou agree with me?
Yes, and we have to adapt.
And I remember being in auniversity-wide conversation and
somebody was talking aboutpedagogy And I said well,
actually I use the principles ofAndragogy.
And somebody literally acolleague of mine looked at me
(09:39):
quizzically and said do you haveadults in your class?
I thought that was the mostbizarre statement I had ever
heard.
But it's a very uphill battleto overcome the nomenclature
pedagogy versus Andragogy.
I know you are quite familiarwith it.
You about it?
Talk about it.
I'd love to hear it from yourperspective.
Mike Birzer (09:57):
I think you know that's an interesting comment
your colleague made.
but you enter into college.
You come to college with lifeexperiences, some more than
others, and those experiencesare very real And we usually we
were just talking about thestudents how do you something
happens in the policingprofession?
How do you confate to studentsthat not the entire profession
and come in and let's get busyand reform things that need to
(10:20):
be changed.
So students come into theclassroom with a broad range of
experiences.
Many times those are uniqueexperiences And I think the
professor, as a facilitator, canbring those experiences out to
whatever we happen to beteaching, whether it's about
criminological theory or whetherit's about police training or
whatever the case may be.
We can bring that studentsexperience out or their
experiences with police or thecriminal justice system in
(10:42):
general.
It's really, as you're wellaware when you look at and agagy
, what's about facilitation.
it's not about the professorjust pouring forth all these
facts that the studentregurgitates at a later time on
an exam.
It's much, much more than that.
It's about really being ateacher, a teacher's teacher.
That's what it's all about Andrecognizing that students in the
classroom.
they bring experiences into theclassroom and that the
(11:05):
professor can capitalize uponthose experiences with whatever
topic they have.
Steve Morreale (11:09):
I like that And certainly I see myself as a
facilitator, not as a teacher,and even when I now do my
syllabi it says facilitator, outof the teacher.
Because I think you'refacilitating conversation,
you're opening it up, you'resharing, you're asking them to
share their life experiences,you're asking them to utter how
they feel, how the people aroundthem feel about these
(11:30):
particular topics, and why theyfeel that way And whether or not
they can support that.
In other words, give me someevidence behind it.
Mike Birzer (11:37):
I've done the same thing on my syllabi for years.
I'll use facilitator as opposedto instructor.
Steve Morreale (11:42):
Having said that , some of the work you had done
is to try to convince policeacademies to take this approach,
to not be the sage on the stage.
Some maybe you or me, as alieutenant, a captain, whatever
we might be to come in here andsay this is the way it's done,
as opposed to let's talk aboutit.
What experience have you had?
What do you think should bedone?
In other words, you'rebeginning to develop both
(12:03):
judgment, critical thinking, andbeginning to help them develop
discretionary approaches tothings.
And how can that be value?
And is that well received Whenyou wrote that, was that well
received?
Mike Birzer (12:14):
I think it was well received among academic
audiences.
I think it was less receivedamong policing populations And I
had these conversations withpolice commanders and trainers
over the years And I thinkpolice training, as you know,
has been very, veryparamilitaristic over the years.
I remember doing a couple ofyear tour through our training
(12:35):
academy as a training sergeantAnd at the time I went up there.
One of the things I noticed isthat recruit went out of the
building.
They forgot to put their ballcap.
They had to carry around a bigred brick for the rest of the
day And I'm thinking you knowwhat's the purpose of this?
You know you kind of.
So I saw police training istrying to take away who the
individual was when they come inthe academy And you know that's
(12:57):
very important because they'regonna go back out into the
community and they're gonnabecome basically a citizen, but
they're just a citizen withpolicing responsibilities.
The whole idea of androgogy isreally tops training, upside
down, in the way we're used todoing things.
An instructor in the front ofthe classroom pouring forth all
the you know all these factsthat recruits need to know.
Androgogy, i think, would allowtrainers to use that as an
(13:20):
opportunity, for example, toteach.
I see community policing whatwe really want in real community
policing with those threeelements.
I see that very much relevantto androgogy.
I think problem solving we cando those types of things.
We can put recruits into smallgroups in the academy And I
think we can foster theirlearning much, much more than
more of a behavioristic academy.
(13:41):
That's very paramilitaristic.
And there are still thoseacademies around today that are
like that.
I mean they're close marchingdrills and things of that nature
.
Those are the wrong things.
We wanna still mix.
We prepare the recruits to goout into the field and then it's
almost like we're preparingthem to go out and face an enemy
.
Now that's important.
They've gotta have thosetactical skills to go out and
potentially survive an encounter.
(14:03):
But in reality that's noteveryday police work.
Those are rarities in the field.
Steve Morreale (14:07):
Have you had any influence on police training as
a result of this?
Mike Birzer (14:10):
I think I have in our jurisdiction, they've
recently began to adopt a lot ofthose what I call androgogical
tenants into the classroom.
So give you an example of that.
So when they're teaching,they're speaking, which taught
police people.
When they teach theirmulticultural diversity and
inclusivity courses, they willbring members of the community
and have them interacting withthe recruits during that
(14:32):
training And it's wonderful tosee that And that has never
happened before.
That's just an occurrencewithin the last few years at
Wichita State.
So I've had this conversation.
He's now retired.
He's a retired chief there, limMoore, who have actually
presented some stuff with it,and you just wrote a book with
Absolutely absolutely.
He just retired and he wasreally instrumental in pushing a
(14:53):
lot of that during his time asa training commander, being
appointed interim police chief.
Steve Morreale (14:57):
You know, it strikes me too that policing
agencies in America andcertainly across the world,
molded themselves in thelikeness of the military, and
yet that's what we holdourselves to be paramilitary.
And yet if you go back to themilitary today, they're not
doing it that way.
They are relying on their fieldpersonnel to provide some
(15:18):
information and consider whatthe problems might be and what
some of the solutions might be.
And we're not there.
In many ways We're still backin the 40s and 50s, as opposed
to looking at the military andthe way they train their leaders
today.
And when it comes to leadershipand leader development, we're
talking to Mike Berzer, who is aprofessor at Wichita State
University.
One of the things that troublesme is the way we in policing
(15:41):
promote people, and very oftenyou know this happens all of the
time.
You are a sergeant, you'regoing to be promoted to
lieutenant.
For a long time there's anacting lieutenant because we
have to figure out who we'regoing to put in that position
and the testing and the oralinterviews and such, and so that
position is left vacant for alittle while And then, when you
show up, whoever had it beforeis not going to help you because
(16:02):
they've moved on to the nextthing.
This doesn't happen in themilitary.
I wonder why we do that toourselves.
You're preaching to the choir.
Mike Birzer (16:10):
I know, i know That is yes, absolutely.
That was my experience as apractitioner.
Give me an example of my ownexperience.
I'm a detective, i'm assignedto the DEA task force in Wichita
And I get a call, you know, tocome downtown port to
headquarters.
I go down there and theypromote me to sergeant Said.
You know you'll wrap up, signit over DEA in two weeks and you
(16:31):
report to second watch patrol.
That's where you're going.
So I said great.
So I show up two weeks later,second watch patrol, and here
I'm looking at 15 to 18 deputiesat roll call And I'm thinking
when I do hear you're exactlyright, no one really mentors you
.
You really didn't, at that timeat least, receive a lot of
leadership training going intothat position.
That's quite the opposite ofthe military, where you are
(16:52):
prepared before you get intothose roles.
Steve Morreale (16:54):
I think in large part that still exists today
And it does, it does, it makesno sense, And I think these are
places where we can see someroom for improvement for sure.
So I appreciate you talking tome about that.
I'm going to go up and down thebooks that you have written in
the past, that I know.
This has nothing to do with thelist of articles you have
written, but you have writtenpolicing today and tomorrow, way
back when it sounds like you'redoing something 20 years later.
(17:17):
I'll get to that in aintroduction to private security
, introduction to criminalinvestigation, principles of
leadership and management,racial profiling in their own
words, criminals on crime.
That's an interesting one to mePolice officer exams, police
field operations, theory andpractice, a criminological guide
and theoretical exploration ofserial killers and infamous
(17:38):
murders.
And the most recent one itlooks like it was just released
as reimagined policing in theage of reform.
So there's some similarities,but there's a vast swath that
you are covering here, mike.
So tell me you're not a onetrick pony, are you?
Mike Birzer (17:53):
No, i try not to be in the tradition of Malcolm
Knowles and Andrew Goji.
You know I'm a lifelong learner.
I like learning about differenttopics in criminal justice For a
while you do policing researchso long and you kind of need
something else, and so a lot ofthis was opportunities.
They would come my way.
The racial profiling workreally stemmed from a grant from
(18:16):
the Kansas Department ofTransportation, and so they were
looking for someone to do somequalitative work on experiences
of persons of color that feltthey were racially profiled, and
so that was a few years there,and then the next thing I know,
the book opportunity comes up.
Can you publish this?
There it is?
Yeah, i chalk it up to justbeing a lifelong learner And I
like to learn about differenttopics.
(18:37):
Yeah, maybe I've just been allover the place, but that's me,
that's what I like And it keepsme.
It doesn't get me bored.
Steve Morreale (18:44):
No, i understand that.
That's certainly not intendedas criticism.
I know you didn't take it thatway.
Instead of being a one-trickpony, you've got a wide variety
of interests, all of which isrelevant, for sure.
One of the ones that strikes meis, in their own words,
criminals on crime.
That, to me, is your attempt touse that qualitative approach
to understanding what's going on.
(19:04):
Talk about that.
And let's talk a little bitabout qualitative versus
quantitative.
I think everybody understandsquantitative, and there are some
out there that feel thatqualitative is not necessarily a
scientific method, and I andyou absolutely disagree with
that.
But let's talk about that.
Mike Birzer (19:19):
Sure, yeah, in their own words.
My dear friend and colleague,Paul Cromwell brought me into
that work in.
It must have been the secondedition And the book really
presents perspectives fromcriminals across the board, from
white collar criminals, andit's an edited work.
So we've selected some of thebest pieces we thought that kind
of fit into the different areas, everything from property
(19:42):
offenders to persons that commitwhite collar crimes etc.
And I think oftentimes incriminal justice, criminology, i
think we miss that perspectivefrom those that are actually
doing the crimes.
We rarely sit down and talk tothose folks about what were your
motivations, why did you committhese crimes, what types of
things would lead you to desistfrom those situations, etc.
(20:02):
I remember Professor Cromwellyears ago did a study on the
ethnographic nature of Burke andpublished this wonderful book
And I remember he coined thephrase situational analysis.
So what he would do would takeactive offenders, those folks
that said, yeah, we'recommitting burglaries.
He would take them into variousneighborhoods and said you know
, if you had to commit aburglary today in this
(20:23):
neighborhood, which house wouldyou select And why would you
select that?
And just wonderful informationcame out of that that really can
inform crime preventionpractices.
So, if you think about it, so Ithink that's one thing that we
in criminal justice have tendedto do is shy away from talking
to those that are offenders andgetting on their level to a
certain extent.
Steve Morreale (20:41):
Well, we see that happen, And maybe not in
research or in writing, butwhere law enforcement will reach
back out to hackers and sayhow'd you do it?
Why would you do it?
Take a look at us.
Are we vulnerable?
Those kinds of things.
I think we miss thoseopportunities if we don't take
them.
Mike Birzer (20:55):
Yes, and remember years ago when the behavioral
science unit was started atQuantico with the FBI I mean the
two agents that really had thatidea.
They that was resisted goingout and talking to folks that
were involved in serial killingand things of that nature Very
interesting.
Steve Morreale (21:10):
So what is on your bucket list?
What are you trying toaccomplish next?
You just finished writing.
You're on to your next projectpretty soon, i'm sure.
What are you thinking about?
Mike Birzer (21:19):
Well, i've launched into another book and it's
actually been in progress nowfor a couple of years.
It's a little more difficultone to write.
I'm doing a case study of OWWilson's tenure as chief in
Wigita.
So it's an historical casestudy which has taken me out to
the University of California,berkeley, at their special
holdings because that's wheremost of his papers are And of
(21:42):
course a great August Valmersuch a connection between Wilson
and Valmer And it's been just awonderful experience.
I've got about two chapters tocomplete on that work before it
goes off to the publisher.
But that has you know.
I've studied Wilson for yearsAnd I think he is probably one
of the more understudied, asWigita days, i should say, are
more understudied as far as areformer coming into a
(22:04):
department, the chief of police,the assistant chief, were just
coming off federal indictments.
I mean, wigita was a roughcommunity in the 1930s and
Wilson come in and literallyreformed it from 28 to 39 when
he was here.
So I think it's understudiedAnd so that's why I really
wanted to launch into that worka couple of years ago.
But it's tedious anytime.
Historical archival data try totriangulate your sources and
(22:26):
that's difficult.
So the other thing that I'minvolved in now is an actual
randomized, controlled trialhere in Wichita of differential
police response to low risk, lowharm calls.
And this was another opportunitythat has kind of just came to
be.
I mean, it was a greatopportunity.
I had a real good workingrelationship with the chief of
police.
Take a tander over there Andthey're like 80, i think right
(22:49):
now they're 80 some odd policeofficers down, and so what
they're finding is that for alot of these low risk, non-harm
calls, citizens are waiting anhour, sometimes two hours for
police.
They wanted to see if we canroll a citizen right over to a
police officer by telephone,directly over, if satisfaction
levels remain the same between acontrol group and our
(23:09):
experimental group.
And so we've been at this sinceMarch and we're just about to
wrap this up in about a month orso, and then we're going to
look at the data.
We're going to see if citizenswho have immediate phone contact
with the police officers solvetheir problems, if their
satisfaction levels of thepolice department have remained
the same and they wouldrecommend that service to others
.
Why is the police departmentstill sending officers those
(23:31):
calls when they could be rollingit over?
We're going to up that to kindof a video, immediate contact by
video with the police officer.
That's kind of the second tierof the study, yeah that's
interesting.
Steve Morreale (23:40):
That's certainly happening in healthcare, so why
not in policing?
And I think that's a veryinteresting perspective, and I
think COVID, some people andsome agencies did exactly that,
saying look, when I come intoyour house you can file the
report online.
And is that satisfying people?
And if you can get moreimmediate reaction and get that
issue, whatever the problem orcomplaint is, off your plate, i
(24:01):
would surmise this is not theempirical side of things, but I
would surmise that people wouldbe satisfied.
It's no different, you know,mike, it's no different than
making a phone call for techsupport and being put on hold.
Then, sure, well, you've doneit.
Associate associate, associateassociate.
I need assistance.
You're talking.
I just want to talk to a humanbeing.
Mike Birzer (24:21):
That's it.
Yes, we were around the tablediscussing the possibility of
carrying out this randomizedcontrol experiment, which is
very, very difficult to geteveryone on board.
We had meetings with our 911center here And there's a lot
that has to go on because itwants the calls or triads by the
dispatcher that they could beincluded in the study.
They literally randomized theminto the group.
(24:43):
So there was a lot that had tohappen.
But I remember having thisconversation with a couple of
the commanders over the policedepartment we were joking around
about we could publish this andmaybe tele cops in Wichita,
something like that.
So you do, you hear abouttelemedicine and the same
principle I like that I likethat.
Steve Morreale (24:58):
There you go.
You might be honest somethingthere which is terrific.
I want to go back to OW Wilson.
I'm going to ask you a question.
Play devil's advocate.
You're spending an awful lot oftime, as you indicated, to look
at the historical perspective,what Wilson did, what the steps
he took to improve and to reformthe police department.
Why do you care and who elsewill care?
Mike Birzer (25:18):
That's a great question.
I think that we look at reformpolice reform, i mean.
We seem to.
Every time something happens,committees are formed,
recommendations are made andnothing really really changes.
I think that if we look back atsome of our pioneers in this
profession to see what they didand what they did right looking
at Wilson in Wichita, whichagain is under study And that's
(25:41):
why I really wanted to take theproject on and bounce forward to
1960 when he was appointed thehead of the Chicago police
department on what he did thereto an extremely corrupt
organization at the time I thinkwe can learn much from what
reformers like Wilson did andhow he did it, and I think
oftentimes we don't study thatfrom the historical perspective.
(26:01):
So what did Wilson do and whatcan we adopt from Wilson?
Steve Morreale (26:05):
today, the last thing that I wrote what can be
learned?
it sounds like you're headingin that direction, which is
terrific, and I think, as youindicate, that both August
Volmer and OW Wilson were wayahead of their time.
And I think, chiefs, today whatyou're finding could find some
value in the approach, eventhough you have to fast forward
it another five decades.
things have changed.
(26:25):
You spend a lot of time havingoutreach to current police
officers, both in the classroom,who I'm sure are your students,
but practitioners inorganizations.
How receptive are they, howinterested are they in trying to
do the right thing, trying tomake some improvements, being
willing to hear from you as apracidemic with some ideas?
Mike Birzer (26:48):
I think they're very receptive And I think we
touched on this earlier in theinterview.
But I think one of the thingsthat helps when you walk into
the classroom is that you'vebeen there, you've been an
officer, you've been in thefield, and that brings a certain
amount of credibility, ibelieve, to whether you have
police officers in the classroomor students that are headed
into various roles in thecriminal justice profession.
(27:09):
So I think on its face thathelps.
And I remember early in mycareer, early in my graduate
studies, a professor told mewhen you get into academia,
don't let it be known too muchthat you were a former police
officer.
At that time it was resentedamong a lot of faculties.
They didn't like that And theythought you were just going to
come in and tell a lot of warstories.
(27:30):
And so you know, i wascautioned against doing that And
I didn't for a long, long timekept it off of my activity
reports that I would submit atmy university And then, as I
really evolved into aqualitative researcher, i said
you know, that's important.
So then I began to reveal thatmore and more.
But I'll never forget that Andwe were talking middle 1980s,
late 1980s a professor tellingme that's pretty sad.
Steve Morreale (27:51):
It still goes on today And, as you know, and
there is some disdain oncampuses for criminal justice
departments.
In many ways because in manyways some of my experience have
been it's not seen as anacademic discipline.
I disagree, but also there'stimes when I've been accused or
derided for being an apologistfor police, where you're trying
(28:12):
to explain the policeperspective and other faculty
members who have nothing butdisdain for policing do not want
to hear your point of view Andthat's pretty sad on campus.
I mean, what we see on campusessometimes is pretty upsetting.
I'll ask you this Do you findwith your students that there
are times when they have an openconversation with you, that
they're uncomfortable in someclasses because they're CJ
(28:33):
majors and they're beingridiculed or they're being
challenged?
I don't know if that happens inyour area, but it certainly
does with us.
Mike Birzer (28:39):
Yeah, i see that occasionally.
You know students andparticularly in some of the
other social science areas thatthey get it pretty hard when
there always has been this kindof criminal justice.
It's really not a realdiscipline.
I've seen that a lot.
I don't want to.
I've got a lot of colleaguesclose colleagues in sociology
but that seems to be where a lotof my students say that they
(28:59):
get a lot of pushback.
Some of their sociology facts.
Steve Morreale (29:02):
We're talking about Mike Berzer and he is a
professor at Wichita StateUniversity.
We're talking to him in KansasCity today.
Mike Birzer (29:08):
That's what happened to the criminology
program out at BerkeleyUniversity of California,
berkeley, which Ballmer had abig, big hand in that, and then
later OW Wilson is their firstdean of the program.
but once Wilson left to takethe superintensity of Chicago
program didn't last but a fewyears, and that's.
I remember reading an articlewhere it was written by a group
(29:28):
of professors there thatcompared the criminology program
to Nazis on campus, et cetera,et cetera.
I mean it was, it was bad?
Steve Morreale (29:35):
Yeah, it is, and one of the things that I think
I see is there's actually someconversation that we're having
among colleagues of mine fromacross the country.
Just the question the curiosityof you or I as researchers or
scholars is always looking for aquestion to answer, and one of
the questions was is thereimplicit bias on campus towards
(29:56):
criminal justice departments?
I don't know whether that canever be proven, but you're
exactly right.
The D Krem did not last.
The doctor criminology did notlast.
Yes, that's a crazy thing.
What's your perspective onpolice agencies and what they
have to do to make someimprovements to earn back
community trust?
Mike Birzer (30:15):
You know, i think that somewhere along the way
we've gotten away from those keyingredients in community-based
policing the idea of communitypartnerships, the problem
solving and then organizationaltransformation, things that have
to take place to allow policeofficers to really practice what
Robert Tarjana was, what hereally envisioned.
Steve Morreale (30:34):
Bless us, bless us all, i know.
Mike Birzer (30:35):
Absolutely.
You know, and I think we'velost that somewhere along the
way and for various reasons, ido believe that police
departments really need torefocus on their organizations.
And now we have evidence-basedpolicing practices.
I think are the gold standardsthese days.
Anytime that police departmentcan look at tested evidence that
this works and implement thoseprograms and practices that
(30:59):
really work and get rid of thosethat are not showing success
And that, of course, can betimes a political self or a
police chief particularly.
But I think that policedepartments need to engage in
the evidence-based practices asmuch as possible And I think
that we need to get back tothose core elements of community
policing, not just as aspecialized approach to policing
, but begin to incorporate thatas a holistic organizational
(31:21):
change for your agency.
There's no reason why everypolice officer on any beat can't
practice community policing.
We know that a police officerdoesn't go out and for eight
hours they go from call to call.
Eight hours.
Some days you're going to bepretty busy, but other days
there is downtime, that's whenthe officer parks Press the
flesh Press the flesh.
Yep, get out of the car, knockon some doors.
(31:42):
Hi, i'm Officer So-and-So.
I work here every day from 3 pmto 11, whatever the case may be
, and I think that we have toget back to that.
Steve Morreale (31:48):
I like it.
I mean taking the time tointroduce, know that people
realize that not everybody infact most everybody is not
against policing but doesn'tknow a police officer, and so
making friends becomes important.
You know what you were talkingabout with evidence-based
policing and the AmericanSociety of Evidence-Based
Policing has taken off.
I like what has happened in thelast few years and I would dare
say you might feel the same way.
(32:09):
I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but the leads
program that NIJ has started isamazing, and I certainly wish
for me and probably for you,that we had those opportunities.
Mike Birzer (32:19):
Oh, absolutely, A certain commander at the Wichita
Police Department I'm workingwith.
He is very much involved inthat, very much into the
evidence-based practices.
In fact, he just wrapped up.
We co-sponsored a science-basedinterviewing class the past
four days with him And he'sdoing some unique, unique work.
So, yeah, I think that theevidence-based stuff and what
(32:39):
the leads is doing with that isjust great.
I wish those opportunities werearound when coming up At that
time.
I don't know if you ever gotthis, but there were still a lot
of folks that were a lot ofpeople that were getting
graduate degrees and policeagencies at that time, And so
you were kind of looked at asWhat?
Steve Morreale (32:54):
are you going to be What?
are you trying to be smarterthan me?
Mike Birzer (32:56):
Yeah absolutely, i got a lot.
Steve Morreale (33:00):
I know, i know, i know.
When I was a DEA, when I eversaid I was going for a doctoral
program, they look at me likewhat, do you think You're
smarter than me?
And that question itself in mymind would say I think I already
know the answer.
And that was being facetiousand a wise-ass for sure.
But you're right.
You're right And I think we'reso lucky to be in academia And
as pracodemics, i would have tosay, if you don't mind my
(33:22):
overusing word, because in manycases we're able to pay forward
and help the next generationthink about how they can play a
role in making improvements.
And we've been focusing onpolicing, for sure, but we're
talking about policing andparole and juvenile justice and
victim studies and crimeanalysis and such.
Let's ask this, mike do youbelieve that police departments
(33:43):
would be served well bycivilianizing some of the
positions, not being afraid tobring in specialists that are
not sworn officers to do certainjobs?
Mike Birzer (33:52):
Oh, I think so, absolutely.
I think that many roles on thepolice department that are now
being performed by a swornpolice officer.
it's wasted time.
I think that we can hirecivilians to fill many of those
roles and probably hirecivilians that have specialized
in those areas that we need inpolicing and probably be much
better at.
We're looking at a mentalhealth crisis, as you know.
(34:14):
Now we see the benefits ofemploying the uses of social
workers in policing.
Co responses Yeah, absolutely,it makes good sense.
I mean, we've, for years andyears and years, police officers
had to deal with thosesituations and we could hire
others to more effectively thatare trained in those areas to
deal with them.
That's their craft.
So, yes, i agree, i think a lotof positions can be so
(34:37):
civilianized.
Steve Morreale (34:37):
How can we do some convincing to police
agencies and police leaders thatbeing willing to partner with a
university can be verybeneficial?
Obviously, it has to be theright researcher action research
rather than longitudinalresearch that never ends.
What is your experience intrying to convince other
(34:58):
organizations that we can worktogether and do some good?
Mike Birzer (35:01):
things.
I think in the past it's beenmore challenging as opposed to
today, and one of the uniquethings that we have at Wichita
State now is the law enforcementtraining center is now on
campus and our criminal justicedepartment is on the third floor
of that building.
So it makes for a natural kindof merging of the applied
research that we can do for thepolice department.
(35:21):
But I also think that asresearchers, and particularly
police researchers, when we dothings we collaborate with
police officers or our policedepartments.
We need to publish thatinformation.
We need to get it out so thatpeople can see.
You know, look what we're doinghere at this study.
We did here a randomizedcontrolled trial on differential
police response strategies.
If you have these workingrelationships and partnerships
(35:42):
with police agencies, even ifit's narrow within your own
jurisdiction, we can begin toadvance evidence based things
and applying research, testedresearch to policy formation and
strategy.
Steve Morreale (35:54):
Well, i also think that in academia we have a
tendency to write a differentway for academic journals and
that we need to do a better jobof synthesizing some of that
work and putting it inprofessional magazines in
shorter order.
I know you've had thatexperience.
It's a different kind ofwriting and not everybody is
ready for that.
(36:14):
But what's your experience with?
Mike Birzer (36:15):
that I absolutely agree.
Probably some of the bestfeedback I've ever received on
some of my early work trying toapply androgogy into police
training environments is acouple of articles I published
in the FBI law enforcementbulletin.
That got more.
You know, practitioners readthose types of things.
They don't read the academicjournals, they read the
practitioner oriented journalslike the FBI bulletin, police
(36:38):
chief magazine yep, sheriffmagazine yep, and, i think,
researchers.
I think we've got to do abetter job of trying to publish
in those venues.
The practitioner world isexactly what we're doing and
co-publish with thepractitioners.
You know, once this RCT iscomplete, we're going to
co-publish this and bring someof our police persons that have
been involved in this study.
Steve Morreale (36:57):
Right, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
You've used an acronym.
What's RCT?
Mike Birzer (37:00):
Randomized control trial Okay, okay, i wanted to
make sure, yes.
So publishing with those thatare involved in the project,
putting the peace officers onthat and letting them have a
contribution, i think could go along ways as well.
Steve Morreale (37:14):
Well, in some ways there's a little resistance
from the academic field to usethe term best practices, but you
know, that's exactly whatnearly every police chief and
deputy police chief wants toknow What's the best practice
out there.
So we don't have to reinventthe wheel.
We can customize it for here,but tell me what you did, how
you did it, and it sounds likeif you ended up with this
(37:34):
tele-cop idea, that's exactlywhat they're looking for.
Mike Birzer (37:37):
Yes, you're correct , and, in order of transparency,
we are replicating this to acertain extent from a study that
was done in the UK Right Andthey've done some significant
work with evidence-basedpractices.
Of course you have Dr LawrenceSherman, who's over there at
Cambridge.
Steve Morreale (37:52):
Cambridge.
Mike Birzer (37:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
So now we're taking bits andpieces of that and seeing if we
can find some of the same thingsthat they found in the UK And
there's a lot of differentdynamics there from the UK to
the United States policing.
Steve Morreale (38:04):
Well, that has to do with police training And I
was talking to a colleague ofmine, dr Jim O'Keefe, yesterday
and he was involved in helpingPurface.
They put together training.
I don't even have it right here, but the training piece on 40
ideas to improve police trainingAnd I think that's very
fascinating.
It will help.
But my experience too, goingover to the UK and going over to
(38:26):
Ireland, it's a little bitdifferent.
And I'll ask you this, mike wedon't do a lot of reflecting in
police academies.
You know it is not done.
You're going to an academy, youcome back from the academy, you
go to field training, you'rethen put on your own, you're
assessed while you're inprobation and then you're on
your own.
As opposed to what happens overin Europe in some cases is that
you go out, you have your fieldtraining and you come back now
(38:48):
with that experience level, thatlived experience, and you
reflect on what did you do, whatdid your partner do, what could
you have done different, whatcould you have done better.
That's to me a missingcomponent in our police training
.
I see you shaking your head.
I have the benefit of that.
What's your point?
Mike Birzer (39:04):
of view, Absolutely .
Yeah, I think getting into theandrogogical piece you know
there's a piece of that as wellfor reflective learning, having
the learners reflect on whatthey've learned in the classroom
and then sending them to thefield for a while, having them
come back into the classroom andreflecting on those
perspectives That's very much intune with androgogie and some
of the other reflexive learning,what we talk about in
(39:25):
qualitative research as well.
Research has to be reflexive.
Steve Morreale (39:28):
Yes, How do we move that forward in police
training, i wonder?
That's the typical piece.
It's a question of money,because you're sending people
back from the field.
We do in-service and I will saythat it's my experience that
much of the in-service is not asstellar as it should be, is not
as rigid as it should be or asrich as it should be.
It's almost like we're awayhere, we're going to tell you
what you have to know and thengo back to the field.
(39:49):
Yes, i think we've got to do abetter job.
I certainly don't want to seedoctors trained that way to
learn new surgery, right?
or a pilot who has to learn somenew technology.
I think we do ourselves a bitof a disservice by minimizing
the value and the potential forcontinuing education.
Mike Birzer (40:07):
Yeah, I agree.
I think too that us in academiain general need to reach out to
the police populations more,get them around the table and
talk about these ideas, whetherit's your jurisdiction level or
whether it's wider within yourstate.
You got to begin to kick aroundideas with practitioners And I
think once that happens, we'regoing to move forward
significantly.
That's great.
Steve Morreale (40:27):
So we're going to wind down.
I'm talking with Mike Berzer,Dr Mike Berzer, Michael Berzer,
he is a professor at WichitaState University and also a
former police lieutenant,sheriff's lieutenant.
He's very active in policing,very active in research.
I like the idea of qualitativeresearch.
So we wind down.
If you had a chance to talk tosomeone dead or alive besides OW
(40:49):
Wilson, who would you want topick their?
Mike Birzer (40:52):
brains.
Well, that's a good one, Youknow, probably give you an
international perspective.
Sir Robert Peel would love tohave a conversation with him And
, as you know, many of thoseprinciples at least, were
attempted in the United States.
So I would say internationally,Sir Robert Peel and then August
Volner.
Steve Morreale (41:08):
That's good.
And the last question I ask anawful lot of people is what do
you say to students aboutpolicing and to try to convince
them that they can have somevalue in policing in the future?
Mike Birzer (41:22):
I would say to students that obviously you can
look, you can watch the newsmedia every single night and
someone's going to be criticalof the police.
We have these incidents thatoccur every now and then, but
they don't happen every day.
But if you think that you wantto be a police officer it's an
honorable profession come in andchange from within.
That would be my advice.
Steve Morreale (41:42):
So what's on the agenda for the next semester?
What are you teaching?
Mike Birzer (41:45):
This next semester I'm actually in summer I'm doing
an online law enforcementcourse.
In the fall I'll be doingqualitative research method and
introduction to law enforcement.
Steve Morreale (41:54):
That's great.
I want to ask about thatqualitative course.
Tell me how you prosecute thatcourse.
Mike Birzer (41:59):
Okay.
So I approach it, i introducestudents to five approaches and
I draw from Cresswell's work aCresswell and Poth now.
But so we start out looking atnumber one the first few weeks.
What is qualitative research?
and kind of give the studentsan idea of how that differs from
quantitative orientations.
And then we get into fivedifferent approaches For the
(42:20):
semester.
We look at ethnography, we lookat case study, we look at
phenomenology, we look atbiographical research.
And to give the studentswhatever their research
questions are, what of theseareas do you think you would or
the approach to qualitativeresearch would most benefit the
questions you're trying toanswer?
So if you're interested in howcrime victims experience maybe
(42:40):
burglary, it lends itselfdirectly to phenomenology,
because that's what it is, it'sa study of experience.
So I give the students broadand this is a graduate level
course So oftentimes I'll havestudents that are in the PhD
program over in communitypsychology will take the course
and they've been orientedtowards quantitative research.
So gives them a whole differentoutlook on research and what
(43:01):
can be done with qualitativeresearch.
What tools do you choose to use?
There's several that really theinterview don't underestimate
the value of the interview Andof course the field field
observations with ethnography isvery important.
Being in the field, observingthat, whether as a participant
observer or a non-participantobserver, i think is very
important.
(43:21):
Got a graduate student nowthat's getting ready to defend
his ethnographic research.
He'd looked at rural lawenforcement culture in Kansas So
he literally had open access tothe site that he selected and
just spent months writing aroundwith the officers hanging
around the police station.
So that's what I encouragestudents to do more of is to get
into the field and observe anddo ethnographic types of
(43:43):
analyses as well.
Steve Morreale (43:44):
So I'll leave you with this question in terms
of software to do coding, to dothe collection, parse out some
of the characteristics, what doyou like to?
Mike Birzer (43:53):
use.
Well, I use a number ofdifferent programs.
In vivo is one.
Another one is just an Excelspreadsheet.
I'll begin to massage the data.
I think two and I did a lot ofkeep up on the field, the Odom
Institute at the University ofNorth Carolina.
They offer the summer intensiveand I've done those for the
past six years now And some ofthe best qualitative researchers
(44:14):
that are facilitating theseclasses will tell you that they
don't use anything.
They don't like anything tocome between them and the data.
They like to work it out onpaper in the transcripts or
their note cards or whatever.
I'm not quite to that point.
I do like the technology and Ithink it can offer some benefits
, but in the end it's still upto the researcher to make sense
of what that data is telling himor her.
(44:35):
And I could interpret transcriptor a number of transcripts,
much different than maybeanother person that comes in and
looks at those transcripts.
So it's a matter of that's thenature of qualitative work.
It's the interpretation of theresearcher.
Of course we've got ways to tryto, as you know, validate our
findings through member checkingand a number of differences.
Steve Morreale (44:52):
We can do.
Well, we've been talking to DrMichael Burser and he is a
prakademic working at WichitaState University doing a number
of things, including gettingready to write a book,
continuing to do research andtake top of it.
He's in Kansas City today andwe appreciate you sharing your
ideas, your thoughts here to theaudience.
The audience is a very oftenpeople coming to us from Canada,
(45:13):
New Zealand, from Australia,from Ireland.
I'm very proud to say so.
I'm happy to introduce them toyou and you to them.
How can people reach you ifthey would like?
Mike Birzer (45:23):
They can email me at michaelburzer at wichitaedu.
That's probably the best way.
Or just if you can't, if youdidn't copy that, just go to the
Wichita State University Schoolof Criminal Justice website and
I'm there.
That's terrific.
Steve Morreale (45:36):
Well, thanks so much for your time and your
energy.
Good luck this weekend.
I know you're out therefollowing some baseball and I
appreciate you taking a timewhile you're on the road.
Mike, thanks very much.
Have a great summer.
Mike Birzer (45:46):
You too.
Thank you so much for having meTake care.
Steve Morreale (45:48):
All right, that's another episode of the
Cop Doc Podcast.
I'm Steve Morale, coming to youfrom Boston.
Stay tuned for other episodes.
We'll be back in a couple ofweeks.
Intro/Outro (45:58):
Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Moriale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Western State
University.
Please tune into the Cop DocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
Welcome to The Cop Doc Podcast.
This podcast explores policeleadership issues and innovative
ideas.
The CopD oc shares thoughts andideas as he talks with leaders
in policing communities,academia and other government
agencies.
And now please join Dr SteveMorreale and industry thought
(00:25):
leaders as they share theirinsights and experience on The
CopD oc Podcast.
Steve Morreale (00:36):
Well, hello everybody.
This is Steve Morreale, comingfrom Boston.
You are listening to The CopDoc Podcast.
We have another episodestarting and I'm talking to a
colleague out in Kansas City.
He is from Wichita, Kansas, buthe's in Kansas City today, dr
Mike Birzer from Wichita StateUniversity.
Hello there, michael.
Hello, thank you for having me.
Thanks so much.
First of all, I've beenwatching you from afar for a
(00:58):
long time.
We've talked once on the phone.
I loved your work aboutandrogogy to use it in police
training, never mind in our ownclassrooms And so I know you are
an avid writer, are certainlyan author, you're a professor
you're a former law enforcementofficer.
Talk about how you ended upcoming out of policing and into
academia.
Mike Birzer (01:17):
You know, Dr.
Morreale, that was not planned.
When I entered policing, ofcourse, at a young age, I
thought that was it.
That's all I wanted to do.
Actually, that's all I wantedto do since I was about 16 years
old and joined a sheriff'scadet program in Wichita, and
the rest is history.
So, of course, I was anon-traditional college student.
I didn't think initially Ineeded to go to college.
(01:39):
I just wanted to be a cop andthat was it.
And so I got into policing andthen suddenly realized, you know
, maybe I need to go to college,and so I worked my way through
my undergraduate degree And thena master's really wasn't even
on the table.
And then I thought you know,maybe a master's degree might
not hurt.
And so I went back and got mymaster's degree.
(02:00):
And that's when it really itreally hit me that I liked
research, i like this stuff, ilike learning about theory and
research and methodology, and soit was a question when I earned
the master's degree what do Ido now?
And in Wichita at the time keepin mind distance education,
online education just wasn'tthere.
Yes, and you know I was facedwith the dilemma where do I go
(02:22):
get a doctorate?
from Wichita, kansas, wichitaState had minimal doctorates at
that time that they wereoffering, and I started looking
around and found a program atOklahoma State And it was in the
educational studies area And itwas adult, continuing
occupational education.
And so I applied for theprogram and went down for an
(02:42):
interview At that time they wereinterviewing all the candidates
and met with chair of theprogram at that time And he said
well, you know, he said you'rebecoming in kind of a non
traditional if you're going towork through work.
And that's what I needed to do.
I was in my career And theyaccepted me in the program And
he said you know, we'll consideryou in residence as long as you
get down here for classes.
So I was convincedfour-and-a-half on about a year
(03:03):
journey back and forth fromWichita to Stillw ater, Oklahoma
, which is a 140-mile round tripseveral times a week, and at
the time I had a captain thatwas just a great guy.
He allowed me to flex, do someflex hours And that's how I kind
of ended up in academia andthen hit 18 years in policing
And I was about ready to finishmy doctorate, defend my
(03:24):
dissertation, and theopportunity came up in Ada,
Oklahoma, the university calledEast Central University And it's
just a small school.
I had an opportunity to goteach there And so I had a real
big decision to make.
You know, do I leave policingand go hit an inner end to
academia at this point where Istick out policing a few more
years?
this chance would have it.
I ended up retiring early frompolicing and then moving to
(03:46):
eight Oklahoma for my first yearas an academic.
Steve Morreale (03:49):
So let me ask you this then how far away was
Ada from where you are inWichita?
Mike Birzer (03:54):
It's about a three and a half hour drive.
Steve Morreale (03:56):
Okay, so it's not close.
Mike Birzer (03:58):
Southeast Oklahoma.
Steve Morreale (04:00):
I got you, so I you know I use the term a lot
And I'm sure you've heard it awhole bunch of you.
Don't use it yourself.
You're a pro academic, you're apractical guy, somebody who did
the job and certainly for anoff long time, rose up to be a
lieutenant, went back to schoolas a non-traditional student And
, as I was, i think that you'redifferent in the classroom, as
professors now understand.
When you have police officersin your classroom, it's almost
(04:20):
like you have a graduateassistant or a teacher's aide.
And again, i think I can seesome similarities that I never
saw myself as somebody who hadthe capacity to earn a doctorate
.
And yet here we are and givingback to students.
So you are writing, you areteaching.
Talk about Wichita State andthat criminal justice department
(04:41):
.
How big is it?
What are the courses you'reteaching?
Mike Birzer (04:43):
So Wichita State University actually we kind of
pride ourselves on having one ofthe I wouldn't say the oldest,
but one of the older programs inthe country actually was
started back in the 1930s by arenowned chief, ow Wilson, when
he was chief.
Steve Morreale (04:57):
I've never heard of him.
Yeah, i'm kidding, yeah.
Mike Birzer (05:01):
Imagine that.
Yeah, So it initially Wilsonstarted it.
He had this wonderfulrelationship when he arrived in
Wichita He really worked closelywith Wichita State at the time
And so it started as a policescience program Wilson's command
staff talks about the policeforces at the university And
gradually over the course of theyears it evolved into a full
(05:23):
service criminal justice degreewhere students can study, be
seeing corrections for judicial,et cetera, et cetera.
We have right now in ourgraduate program approximately
25 active graduate students Andthen our undergraduates, a
couple of hundred.
And then we have a forensicscience program as well which
has really taken off and donevery well, And there's probably
(05:44):
40 or 50 majors there.
And then we have a homelandsecurity program which is doing
very well with another probably50, 60 students studying
homeland security, And that'sthe school of criminal justice.
What's your area of choice toteach?
My area primarily focuses onpolicing And I do teach some of
our methodology courses.
I do qualitative researchmethods And I do advance, Love
(06:07):
quality, I love quality, I loveteaching that And advanced
research methods for ourgraduate students, which really
is just more of a graduateintroduction to methods, because
a lot of our students arecoming in.
They didn't have that muchpreparation methodology.
So yeah, law enforcementrelated courses.
Steve Morreale (06:23):
So let me tell you my experience But in a
classroom and certainly I'vebeen at this for, i don't know,
18 to 20 years since I retiredfrom law enforcement That when I
started there was about 50% ofthe school for the students who
wanted to be in policing And Iwould say that has dwindled to
maybe 20%.
That's anecdotal at best, butthere certainly is less interest
in going into policing.
But so many other areas youjust talked about it's
(06:45):
cybersecurity and securityitself and home insecurity, and
there's so many other optionsout there.
Are you seeing the same thingout your way?
Absolutely.
Mike Birzer (06:53):
I have seen that over the course of my career And
I think right now for us whereI'm seeing the interest is in
Homeland Security Studies.
A lot of students are beginningto gravitate to that area
Forensics initially.
We see students that come inand they are interested in the
forensics But it's a heavyscience program.
It's heavy in the sciences Anda lot of students they'll get in
(07:14):
a year They decide this is waytoo much science that I want to
do or deal with.
But yeah, you're absolutelycorrect, and it comes down and
somebody want to go into policework.
Steve Morreale (07:25):
And it's a shame .
It's unfortunate, because Ithink in our society, and in
democratic society, we needpolice.
There certainly have been underfire agencies.
By the same token, i see aneffort to reform, whether it's
forced upon them or it's doingit themselves, so there is some
forward momentum.
Problem is, though, mike and bythe way, we're talking to Mike
Berzer, he is a professor atWichita State, dr Mike Berzer,
(07:47):
out there in Kansas And what Ibegin to worry about and I'm
sure you were in the classroomand we're talking and Floyd
incident happens and you say,well, okay, that's an outlier.
And then something else happens, and well, that's an outlier,
but the more it happens, themore difficult it is to convince
people that this is not rampant.
How do you handle that?
How do you address that, notonly with students, but people
(08:09):
who know you're in a criminaljustice education field?
How do you address that?
Mike Birzer (08:13):
It is a challenge.
The thing that I try to conveyto students in the classroom in
one of these fortunate incidentshas occurred is they don't let
this deter you, particularlythose that are interested in
police work as a career.
Use this as an opportunity togo in and make things better.
And I also use that sameargument Things that we know we
really need to do in thecriminal justice system to make
(08:34):
it more a fairer system.
And I convince a lot of mystudents and I know some of the
students come in and they're alittle bit, believe it or not,
anti-criminal justice.
So I try to reinforce upon themthat you know, use this
opportunity to go in and makethings better.
If you think we need to reformand change And certainly there
are areas that we need to take alook at- No question about that
.
Steve Morreale (08:53):
It's a challenge .
It is a challenge It is.
It is for me too.
So we talk an awful lot on thispodcast about leadership and
about organizational change andorganizational dynamics and
culture, and that's a lot ofwhat you write about and what
you research.
I'd like to take you down aroad for a moment about
Andragogy, and I want to tellyou this story.
Mike, i remember having aconversation and I'm sure you've
(09:16):
had this experience.
You come from a policebackground and you walk on
campus.
It's a completely differentculture.
You're shaking your head, wouldyou agree with me?
Yes, and we have to adapt.
And I remember being in auniversity-wide conversation and
somebody was talking aboutpedagogy And I said well,
actually I use the principles ofAndragogy.
And somebody literally acolleague of mine looked at me
(09:39):
quizzically and said do you haveadults in your class?
I thought that was the mostbizarre statement I had ever
heard.
But it's a very uphill battleto overcome the nomenclature
pedagogy versus Andragogy.
I know you are quite familiarwith it.
You about it?
Talk about it.
I'd love to hear it from yourperspective.
Mike Birzer (09:57):
I think you know that's an interesting comment
your colleague made.
but you enter into college.
You come to college with lifeexperiences, some more than
others, and those experiencesare very real And we usually we
were just talking about thestudents how do you something
happens in the policingprofession?
How do you confate to studentsthat not the entire profession
and come in and let's get busyand reform things that need to
(10:20):
be changed.
So students come into theclassroom with a broad range of
experiences.
Many times those are uniqueexperiences And I think the
professor, as a facilitator, canbring those experiences out to
whatever we happen to beteaching, whether it's about
criminological theory or whetherit's about police training or
whatever the case may be.
We can bring that studentsexperience out or their
experiences with police or thecriminal justice system in
(10:42):
general.
It's really, as you're wellaware when you look at and agagy
, what's about facilitation.
it's not about the professorjust pouring forth all these
facts that the studentregurgitates at a later time on
an exam.
It's much, much more than that.
It's about really being ateacher, a teacher's teacher.
That's what it's all about Andrecognizing that students in the
classroom.
they bring experiences into theclassroom and that the
(11:05):
professor can capitalize uponthose experiences with whatever
topic they have.
Steve Morreale (11:09):
I like that And certainly I see myself as a
facilitator, not as a teacher,and even when I now do my
syllabi it says facilitator, outof the teacher.
Because I think you'refacilitating conversation,
you're opening it up, you'resharing, you're asking them to
share their life experiences,you're asking them to utter how
they feel, how the people aroundthem feel about these
(11:30):
particular topics, and why theyfeel that way And whether or not
they can support that.
In other words, give me someevidence behind it.
Mike Birzer (11:37):
I've done the same thing on my syllabi for years.
I'll use facilitator as opposedto instructor.
Steve Morreale (11:42):
Having said that , some of the work you had done
is to try to convince policeacademies to take this approach,
to not be the sage on the stage.
Some maybe you or me, as alieutenant, a captain, whatever
we might be to come in here andsay this is the way it's done,
as opposed to let's talk aboutit.
What experience have you had?
What do you think should bedone?
In other words, you'rebeginning to develop both
(12:03):
judgment, critical thinking, andbeginning to help them develop
discretionary approaches tothings.
And how can that be value?
And is that well received Whenyou wrote that, was that well
received?
Mike Birzer (12:14):
I think it was well received among academic
audiences.
I think it was less receivedamong policing populations And I
had these conversations withpolice commanders and trainers
over the years And I thinkpolice training, as you know,
has been very, veryparamilitaristic over the years.
I remember doing a couple ofyear tour through our training
(12:35):
academy as a training sergeantAnd at the time I went up there.
One of the things I noticed isthat recruit went out of the
building.
They forgot to put their ballcap.
They had to carry around a bigred brick for the rest of the
day And I'm thinking you knowwhat's the purpose of this?
You know you kind of.
So I saw police training istrying to take away who the
individual was when they come inthe academy And you know that's
(12:57):
very important because they'regonna go back out into the
community and they're gonnabecome basically a citizen, but
they're just a citizen withpolicing responsibilities.
The whole idea of androgogy isreally tops training, upside
down, in the way we're used todoing things.
An instructor in the front ofthe classroom pouring forth all
the you know all these factsthat recruits need to know.
Androgogy, i think, would allowtrainers to use that as an
(13:20):
opportunity, for example, toteach.
I see community policing whatwe really want in real community
policing with those threeelements.
I see that very much relevantto androgogy.
I think problem solving we cando those types of things.
We can put recruits into smallgroups in the academy And I
think we can foster theirlearning much, much more than
more of a behavioristic academy.
(13:41):
That's very paramilitaristic.
And there are still thoseacademies around today that are
like that.
I mean they're close marchingdrills and things of that nature
.
Those are the wrong things.
We wanna still mix.
We prepare the recruits to goout into the field and then it's
almost like we're preparingthem to go out and face an enemy
.
Now that's important.
They've gotta have thosetactical skills to go out and
potentially survive an encounter.
(14:03):
But in reality that's noteveryday police work.
Those are rarities in the field.
Steve Morreale (14:07):
Have you had any influence on police training as
a result of this?
Mike Birzer (14:10):
I think I have in our jurisdiction, they've
recently began to adopt a lot ofthose what I call androgogical
tenants into the classroom.
So give you an example of that.
So when they're teaching,they're speaking, which taught
police people.
When they teach theirmulticultural diversity and
inclusivity courses, they willbring members of the community
and have them interacting withthe recruits during that
(14:32):
training And it's wonderful tosee that And that has never
happened before.
That's just an occurrencewithin the last few years at
Wichita State.
So I've had this conversation.
He's now retired.
He's a retired chief there, limMoore, who have actually
presented some stuff with it,and you just wrote a book with
Absolutely absolutely.
He just retired and he wasreally instrumental in pushing a
(14:53):
lot of that during his time asa training commander, being
appointed interim police chief.
Steve Morreale (14:57):
You know, it strikes me too that policing
agencies in America andcertainly across the world,
molded themselves in thelikeness of the military, and
yet that's what we holdourselves to be paramilitary.
And yet if you go back to themilitary today, they're not
doing it that way.
They are relying on their fieldpersonnel to provide some
(15:18):
information and consider whatthe problems might be and what
some of the solutions might be.
And we're not there.
In many ways We're still backin the 40s and 50s, as opposed
to looking at the military andthe way they train their leaders
today.
And when it comes to leadershipand leader development, we're
talking to Mike Berzer, who is aprofessor at Wichita State
University.
One of the things that troublesme is the way we in policing
(15:41):
promote people, and very oftenyou know this happens all of the
time.
You are a sergeant, you'regoing to be promoted to
lieutenant.
For a long time there's anacting lieutenant because we
have to figure out who we'regoing to put in that position
and the testing and the oralinterviews and such, and so that
position is left vacant for alittle while And then, when you
show up, whoever had it beforeis not going to help you because
(16:02):
they've moved on to the nextthing.
This doesn't happen in themilitary.
I wonder why we do that toourselves.
You're preaching to the choir.
Mike Birzer (16:10):
I know, i know That is yes, absolutely.
That was my experience as apractitioner.
Give me an example of my ownexperience.
I'm a detective, i'm assignedto the DEA task force in Wichita
And I get a call, you know, tocome downtown port to
headquarters.
I go down there and theypromote me to sergeant Said.
You know you'll wrap up, signit over DEA in two weeks and you
(16:31):
report to second watch patrol.
That's where you're going.
So I said great.
So I show up two weeks later,second watch patrol, and here
I'm looking at 15 to 18 deputiesat roll call And I'm thinking
when I do hear you're exactlyright, no one really mentors you
.
You really didn't, at that timeat least, receive a lot of
leadership training going intothat position.
That's quite the opposite ofthe military, where you are
(16:52):
prepared before you get intothose roles.
Steve Morreale (16:54):
I think in large part that still exists today
And it does, it does, it makesno sense, And I think these are
places where we can see someroom for improvement for sure.
So I appreciate you talking tome about that.
I'm going to go up and down thebooks that you have written in
the past, that I know.
This has nothing to do with thelist of articles you have
written, but you have writtenpolicing today and tomorrow, way
back when it sounds like you'redoing something 20 years later.
(17:17):
I'll get to that in aintroduction to private security
, introduction to criminalinvestigation, principles of
leadership and management,racial profiling in their own
words, criminals on crime.
That's an interesting one to mePolice officer exams, police
field operations, theory andpractice, a criminological guide
and theoretical exploration ofserial killers and infamous
(17:38):
murders.
And the most recent one itlooks like it was just released
as reimagined policing in theage of reform.
So there's some similarities,but there's a vast swath that
you are covering here, mike.
So tell me you're not a onetrick pony, are you?
Mike Birzer (17:53):
No, i try not to be in the tradition of Malcolm
Knowles and Andrew Goji.
You know I'm a lifelong learner.
I like learning about differenttopics in criminal justice For a
while you do policing researchso long and you kind of need
something else, and so a lot ofthis was opportunities.
They would come my way.
The racial profiling workreally stemmed from a grant from
(18:16):
the Kansas Department ofTransportation, and so they were
looking for someone to do somequalitative work on experiences
of persons of color that feltthey were racially profiled, and
so that was a few years there,and then the next thing I know,
the book opportunity comes up.
Can you publish this?
There it is?
Yeah, i chalk it up to justbeing a lifelong learner And I
like to learn about differenttopics.
(18:37):
Yeah, maybe I've just been allover the place, but that's me,
that's what I like And it keepsme.
It doesn't get me bored.
Steve Morreale (18:44):
No, i understand that.
That's certainly not intendedas criticism.
I know you didn't take it thatway.
Instead of being a one-trickpony, you've got a wide variety
of interests, all of which isrelevant, for sure.
One of the ones that strikes meis, in their own words,
criminals on crime.
That, to me, is your attempt touse that qualitative approach
to understanding what's going on.
(19:04):
Talk about that.
And let's talk a little bitabout qualitative versus
quantitative.
I think everybody understandsquantitative, and there are some
out there that feel thatqualitative is not necessarily a
scientific method, and I andyou absolutely disagree with
that.
But let's talk about that.
Mike Birzer (19:19):
Sure, yeah, in their own words.
My dear friend and colleague,Paul Cromwell brought me into
that work in.
It must have been the secondedition And the book really
presents perspectives fromcriminals across the board, from
white collar criminals, andit's an edited work.
So we've selected some of thebest pieces we thought that kind
of fit into the different areas, everything from property
(19:42):
offenders to persons that commitwhite collar crimes etc.
And I think oftentimes incriminal justice, criminology, i
think we miss that perspectivefrom those that are actually
doing the crimes.
We rarely sit down and talk tothose folks about what were your
motivations, why did you committhese crimes, what types of
things would lead you to desistfrom those situations, etc.
(20:02):
I remember Professor Cromwellyears ago did a study on the
ethnographic nature of Burke andpublished this wonderful book
And I remember he coined thephrase situational analysis.
So what he would do would takeactive offenders, those folks
that said, yeah, we'recommitting burglaries.
He would take them into variousneighborhoods and said you know
, if you had to commit aburglary today in this
(20:23):
neighborhood, which house wouldyou select And why would you
select that?
And just wonderful informationcame out of that that really can
inform crime preventionpractices.
So, if you think about it, so Ithink that's one thing that we
in criminal justice have tendedto do is shy away from talking
to those that are offenders andgetting on their level to a
certain extent.
Steve Morreale (20:41):
Well, we see that happen, And maybe not in
research or in writing, butwhere law enforcement will reach
back out to hackers and sayhow'd you do it?
Why would you do it?
Take a look at us.
Are we vulnerable?
Those kinds of things.
I think we miss thoseopportunities if we don't take
them.
Mike Birzer (20:55):
Yes, and remember years ago when the behavioral
science unit was started atQuantico with the FBI I mean the
two agents that really had thatidea.
They that was resisted goingout and talking to folks that
were involved in serial killingand things of that nature Very
interesting.
Steve Morreale (21:10):
So what is on your bucket list?
What are you trying toaccomplish next?
You just finished writing.
You're on to your next projectpretty soon, i'm sure.
What are you thinking about?
Mike Birzer (21:19):
Well, i've launched into another book and it's
actually been in progress nowfor a couple of years.
It's a little more difficultone to write.
I'm doing a case study of OWWilson's tenure as chief in
Wigita.
So it's an historical casestudy which has taken me out to
the University of California,berkeley, at their special
holdings because that's wheremost of his papers are And of
(21:42):
course a great August Valmersuch a connection between Wilson
and Valmer And it's been just awonderful experience.
I've got about two chapters tocomplete on that work before it
goes off to the publisher.
But that has you know.
I've studied Wilson for yearsAnd I think he is probably one
of the more understudied, asWigita days, i should say, are
more understudied as far as areformer coming into a
(22:04):
department, the chief of police,the assistant chief, were just
coming off federal indictments.
I mean, wigita was a roughcommunity in the 1930s and
Wilson come in and literallyreformed it from 28 to 39 when
he was here.
So I think it's understudiedAnd so that's why I really
wanted to launch into that worka couple of years ago.
But it's tedious anytime.
Historical archival data try totriangulate your sources and
(22:26):
that's difficult.
So the other thing that I'minvolved in now is an actual
randomized, controlled trialhere in Wichita of differential
police response to low risk, lowharm calls.
And this was another opportunitythat has kind of just came to
be.
I mean, it was a greatopportunity.
I had a real good workingrelationship with the chief of
police.
Take a tander over there Andthey're like 80, i think right
(22:49):
now they're 80 some odd policeofficers down, and so what
they're finding is that for alot of these low risk, non-harm
calls, citizens are waiting anhour, sometimes two hours for
police.
They wanted to see if we canroll a citizen right over to a
police officer by telephone,directly over, if satisfaction
levels remain the same between acontrol group and our
(23:09):
experimental group.
And so we've been at this sinceMarch and we're just about to
wrap this up in about a month orso, and then we're going to
look at the data.
We're going to see if citizenswho have immediate phone contact
with the police officers solvetheir problems, if their
satisfaction levels of thepolice department have remained
the same and they wouldrecommend that service to others
.
Why is the police departmentstill sending officers those
(23:31):
calls when they could be rollingit over?
We're going to up that to kindof a video, immediate contact by
video with the police officer.
That's kind of the second tierof the study, yeah that's
interesting.
Steve Morreale (23:40):
That's certainly happening in healthcare, so why
not in policing?
And I think that's a veryinteresting perspective, and I
think COVID, some people andsome agencies did exactly that,
saying look, when I come intoyour house you can file the
report online.
And is that satisfying people?
And if you can get moreimmediate reaction and get that
issue, whatever the problem orcomplaint is, off your plate, i
(24:01):
would surmise this is not theempirical side of things, but I
would surmise that people wouldbe satisfied.
It's no different, you know,mike, it's no different than
making a phone call for techsupport and being put on hold.
Then, sure, well, you've doneit.
Associate associate, associateassociate.
I need assistance.
You're talking.
I just want to talk to a humanbeing.
Mike Birzer (24:21):
That's it.
Yes, we were around the tablediscussing the possibility of
carrying out this randomizedcontrol experiment, which is
very, very difficult to geteveryone on board.
We had meetings with our 911center here And there's a lot
that has to go on because itwants the calls or triads by the
dispatcher that they could beincluded in the study.
They literally randomized theminto the group.
(24:43):
So there was a lot that had tohappen.
But I remember having thisconversation with a couple of
the commanders over the policedepartment we were joking around
about we could publish this andmaybe tele cops in Wichita,
something like that.
So you do, you hear abouttelemedicine and the same
principle I like that I likethat.
Steve Morreale (24:58):
There you go.
You might be honest somethingthere which is terrific.
I want to go back to OW Wilson.
I'm going to ask you a question.
Play devil's advocate.
You're spending an awful lot oftime, as you indicated, to look
at the historical perspective,what Wilson did, what the steps
he took to improve and to reformthe police department.
Why do you care and who elsewill care?
Mike Birzer (25:18):
That's a great question.
I think that we look at reformpolice reform, i mean.
We seem to.
Every time something happens,committees are formed,
recommendations are made andnothing really really changes.
I think that if we look back atsome of our pioneers in this
profession to see what they didand what they did right looking
at Wilson in Wichita, whichagain is under study And that's
(25:41):
why I really wanted to take theproject on and bounce forward to
1960 when he was appointed thehead of the Chicago police
department on what he did thereto an extremely corrupt
organization at the time I thinkwe can learn much from what
reformers like Wilson did andhow he did it, and I think
oftentimes we don't study thatfrom the historical perspective.
(26:01):
So what did Wilson do and whatcan we adopt from Wilson?
Steve Morreale (26:05):
today, the last thing that I wrote what can be
learned?
it sounds like you're headingin that direction, which is
terrific, and I think, as youindicate, that both August
Volmer and OW Wilson were wayahead of their time.
And I think, chiefs, today whatyou're finding could find some
value in the approach, eventhough you have to fast forward
it another five decades.
things have changed.
(26:25):
You spend a lot of time havingoutreach to current police
officers, both in the classroom,who I'm sure are your students,
but practitioners inorganizations.
How receptive are they, howinterested are they in trying to
do the right thing, trying tomake some improvements, being
willing to hear from you as apracidemic with some ideas?
Mike Birzer (26:48):
I think they're very receptive And I think we
touched on this earlier in theinterview.
But I think one of the thingsthat helps when you walk into
the classroom is that you'vebeen there, you've been an
officer, you've been in thefield, and that brings a certain
amount of credibility, ibelieve, to whether you have
police officers in the classroomor students that are headed
into various roles in thecriminal justice profession.
(27:09):
So I think on its face thathelps.
And I remember early in mycareer, early in my graduate
studies, a professor told mewhen you get into academia,
don't let it be known too muchthat you were a former police
officer.
At that time it was resentedamong a lot of faculties.
They didn't like that And theythought you were just going to
come in and tell a lot of warstories.
(27:30):
And so you know, i wascautioned against doing that And
I didn't for a long, long timekept it off of my activity
reports that I would submit atmy university And then, as I
really evolved into aqualitative researcher, i said
you know, that's important.
So then I began to reveal thatmore and more.
But I'll never forget that Andwe were talking middle 1980s,
late 1980s a professor tellingme that's pretty sad.
Steve Morreale (27:51):
It still goes on today And, as you know, and
there is some disdain oncampuses for criminal justice
departments.
In many ways because in manyways some of my experience have
been it's not seen as anacademic discipline.
I disagree, but also there'stimes when I've been accused or
derided for being an apologistfor police, where you're trying
(28:12):
to explain the policeperspective and other faculty
members who have nothing butdisdain for policing do not want
to hear your point of view Andthat's pretty sad on campus.
I mean, what we see on campusessometimes is pretty upsetting.
I'll ask you this Do you findwith your students that there
are times when they have an openconversation with you, that
they're uncomfortable in someclasses because they're CJ
(28:33):
majors and they're beingridiculed or they're being
challenged?
I don't know if that happens inyour area, but it certainly
does with us.
Mike Birzer (28:39):
Yeah, i see that occasionally.
You know students andparticularly in some of the
other social science areas thatthey get it pretty hard when
there always has been this kindof criminal justice.
It's really not a realdiscipline.
I've seen that a lot.
I don't want to.
I've got a lot of colleaguesclose colleagues in sociology
but that seems to be where a lotof my students say that they
(28:59):
get a lot of pushback.
Some of their sociology facts.
Steve Morreale (29:02):
We're talking about Mike Berzer and he is a
professor at Wichita StateUniversity.
We're talking to him in KansasCity today.
Mike Birzer (29:08):
That's what happened to the criminology
program out at BerkeleyUniversity of California,
berkeley, which Ballmer had abig, big hand in that, and then
later OW Wilson is their firstdean of the program.
but once Wilson left to takethe superintensity of Chicago
program didn't last but a fewyears, and that's.
I remember reading an articlewhere it was written by a group
(29:28):
of professors there thatcompared the criminology program
to Nazis on campus, et cetera,et cetera.
I mean it was, it was bad?
Steve Morreale (29:35):
Yeah, it is, and one of the things that I think
I see is there's actually someconversation that we're having
among colleagues of mine fromacross the country.
Just the question the curiosityof you or I as researchers or
scholars is always looking for aquestion to answer, and one of
the questions was is thereimplicit bias on campus towards
(29:56):
criminal justice departments?
I don't know whether that canever be proven, but you're
exactly right.
The D Krem did not last.
The doctor criminology did notlast.
Yes, that's a crazy thing.
What's your perspective onpolice agencies and what they
have to do to make someimprovements to earn back
community trust?
Mike Birzer (30:15):
You know, i think that somewhere along the way
we've gotten away from those keyingredients in community-based
policing the idea of communitypartnerships, the problem
solving and then organizationaltransformation, things that have
to take place to allow policeofficers to really practice what
Robert Tarjana was, what hereally envisioned.
Steve Morreale (30:34):
Bless us, bless us all, i know.
Mike Birzer (30:35):
Absolutely.
You know, and I think we'velost that somewhere along the
way and for various reasons, ido believe that police
departments really need torefocus on their organizations.
And now we have evidence-basedpolicing practices.
I think are the gold standardsthese days.
Anytime that police departmentcan look at tested evidence that
this works and implement thoseprograms and practices that
(30:59):
really work and get rid of thosethat are not showing success
And that, of course, can betimes a political self or a
police chief particularly.
But I think that policedepartments need to engage in
the evidence-based practices asmuch as possible And I think
that we need to get back tothose core elements of community
policing, not just as aspecialized approach to policing
, but begin to incorporate thatas a holistic organizational
(31:21):
change for your agency.
There's no reason why everypolice officer on any beat can't
practice community policing.
We know that a police officerdoesn't go out and for eight
hours they go from call to call.
Eight hours.
Some days you're going to bepretty busy, but other days
there is downtime, that's whenthe officer parks Press the
flesh Press the flesh.
Yep, get out of the car, knockon some doors.
(31:42):
Hi, i'm Officer So-and-So.
I work here every day from 3 pmto 11, whatever the case may be
, and I think that we have toget back to that.
Steve Morreale (31:48):
I like it.
I mean taking the time tointroduce, know that people
realize that not everybody infact most everybody is not
against policing but doesn'tknow a police officer, and so
making friends becomes important.
You know what you were talkingabout with evidence-based
policing and the AmericanSociety of Evidence-Based
Policing has taken off.
I like what has happened in thelast few years and I would dare
say you might feel the same way.
(32:09):
I don't want to put words inyour mouth, but the leads
program that NIJ has started isamazing, and I certainly wish
for me and probably for you,that we had those opportunities.
Mike Birzer (32:19):
Oh, absolutely, A certain commander at the Wichita
Police Department I'm workingwith.
He is very much involved inthat, very much into the
evidence-based practices.
In fact, he just wrapped up.
We co-sponsored a science-basedinterviewing class the past
four days with him And he'sdoing some unique, unique work.
So, yeah, I think that theevidence-based stuff and what
(32:39):
the leads is doing with that isjust great.
I wish those opportunities werearound when coming up At that
time.
I don't know if you ever gotthis, but there were still a lot
of folks that were a lot ofpeople that were getting
graduate degrees and policeagencies at that time, And so
you were kind of looked at asWhat?
Steve Morreale (32:54):
are you going to be What?
are you trying to be smarterthan me?
Mike Birzer (32:56):
Yeah absolutely, i got a lot.
Steve Morreale (33:00):
I know, i know, i know.
When I was a DEA, when I eversaid I was going for a doctoral
program, they look at me likewhat, do you think You're
smarter than me?
And that question itself in mymind would say I think I already
know the answer.
And that was being facetiousand a wise-ass for sure.
But you're right.
You're right And I think we'reso lucky to be in academia And
as pracodemics, i would have tosay, if you don't mind my
(33:22):
overusing word, because in manycases we're able to pay forward
and help the next generationthink about how they can play a
role in making improvements.
And we've been focusing onpolicing, for sure, but we're
talking about policing andparole and juvenile justice and
victim studies and crimeanalysis and such.
Let's ask this, mike do youbelieve that police departments
(33:43):
would be served well bycivilianizing some of the
positions, not being afraid tobring in specialists that are
not sworn officers to do certainjobs?
Mike Birzer (33:52):
Oh, I think so, absolutely.
I think that many roles on thepolice department that are now
being performed by a swornpolice officer.
it's wasted time.
I think that we can hirecivilians to fill many of those
roles and probably hirecivilians that have specialized
in those areas that we need inpolicing and probably be much
better at.
We're looking at a mentalhealth crisis, as you know.
(34:14):
Now we see the benefits ofemploying the uses of social
workers in policing.
Co responses Yeah, absolutely,it makes good sense.
I mean, we've, for years andyears and years, police officers
had to deal with thosesituations and we could hire
others to more effectively thatare trained in those areas to
deal with them.
That's their craft.
So, yes, i agree, i think a lotof positions can be so
(34:37):
civilianized.
Steve Morreale (34:37):
How can we do some convincing to police
agencies and police leaders thatbeing willing to partner with a
university can be verybeneficial?
Obviously, it has to be theright researcher action research
rather than longitudinalresearch that never ends.
What is your experience intrying to convince other
(34:58):
organizations that we can worktogether and do some good?
Mike Birzer (35:01):
things.
I think in the past it's beenmore challenging as opposed to
today, and one of the uniquethings that we have at Wichita
State now is the law enforcementtraining center is now on
campus and our criminal justicedepartment is on the third floor
of that building.
So it makes for a natural kindof merging of the applied
research that we can do for thepolice department.
(35:21):
But I also think that asresearchers, and particularly
police researchers, when we dothings we collaborate with
police officers or our policedepartments.
We need to publish thatinformation.
We need to get it out so thatpeople can see.
You know, look what we're doinghere at this study.
We did here a randomizedcontrolled trial on differential
police response strategies.
If you have these workingrelationships and partnerships
(35:42):
with police agencies, even ifit's narrow within your own
jurisdiction, we can begin toadvance evidence based things
and applying research, testedresearch to policy formation and
strategy.
Steve Morreale (35:54):
Well, i also think that in academia we have a
tendency to write a differentway for academic journals and
that we need to do a better jobof synthesizing some of that
work and putting it inprofessional magazines in
shorter order.
I know you've had thatexperience.
It's a different kind ofwriting and not everybody is
ready for that.
(36:14):
But what's your experience with?
Mike Birzer (36:15):
that I absolutely agree.
Probably some of the bestfeedback I've ever received on
some of my early work trying toapply androgogy into police
training environments is acouple of articles I published
in the FBI law enforcementbulletin.
That got more.
You know, practitioners readthose types of things.
They don't read the academicjournals, they read the
practitioner oriented journalslike the FBI bulletin, police
(36:38):
chief magazine yep, sheriffmagazine yep, and, i think,
researchers.
I think we've got to do abetter job of trying to publish
in those venues.
The practitioner world isexactly what we're doing and
co-publish with thepractitioners.
You know, once this RCT iscomplete, we're going to
co-publish this and bring someof our police persons that have
been involved in this study.
Steve Morreale (36:57):
Right, wait a minute.
Wait a minute.
You've used an acronym.
What's RCT?
Mike Birzer (37:00):
Randomized control trial Okay, okay, i wanted to
make sure, yes.
So publishing with those thatare involved in the project,
putting the peace officers onthat and letting them have a
contribution, i think could go along ways as well.
Steve Morreale (37:14):
Well, in some ways there's a little resistance
from the academic field to usethe term best practices, but you
know, that's exactly whatnearly every police chief and
deputy police chief wants toknow What's the best practice
out there.
So we don't have to reinventthe wheel.
We can customize it for here,but tell me what you did, how
you did it, and it sounds likeif you ended up with this
(37:34):
tele-cop idea, that's exactlywhat they're looking for.
Mike Birzer (37:37):
Yes, you're correct , and, in order of transparency,
we are replicating this to acertain extent from a study that
was done in the UK Right Andthey've done some significant
work with evidence-basedpractices.
Of course you have Dr LawrenceSherman, who's over there at
Cambridge.
Steve Morreale (37:52):
Cambridge.
Mike Birzer (37:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
So now we're taking bits andpieces of that and seeing if we
can find some of the same thingsthat they found in the UK And
there's a lot of differentdynamics there from the UK to
the United States policing.
Steve Morreale (38:04):
Well, that has to do with police training And I
was talking to a colleague ofmine, dr Jim O'Keefe, yesterday
and he was involved in helpingPurface.
They put together training.
I don't even have it right here, but the training piece on 40
ideas to improve police trainingAnd I think that's very
fascinating.
It will help.
But my experience too, goingover to the UK and going over to
(38:26):
Ireland, it's a little bitdifferent.
And I'll ask you this, mike wedon't do a lot of reflecting in
police academies.
You know it is not done.
You're going to an academy, youcome back from the academy, you
go to field training, you'rethen put on your own, you're
assessed while you're inprobation and then you're on
your own.
As opposed to what happens overin Europe in some cases is that
you go out, you have your fieldtraining and you come back now
(38:48):
with that experience level, thatlived experience, and you
reflect on what did you do, whatdid your partner do, what could
you have done different, whatcould you have done better.
That's to me a missingcomponent in our police training
.
I see you shaking your head.
I have the benefit of that.
What's your point?
Mike Birzer (39:04):
of view, Absolutely .
Yeah, I think getting into theandrogogical piece you know
there's a piece of that as wellfor reflective learning, having
the learners reflect on whatthey've learned in the classroom
and then sending them to thefield for a while, having them
come back into the classroom andreflecting on those
perspectives That's very much intune with androgogie and some
of the other reflexive learning,what we talk about in
(39:25):
qualitative research as well.
Research has to be reflexive.
Steve Morreale (39:28):
Yes, How do we move that forward in police
training, i wonder?
That's the typical piece.
It's a question of money,because you're sending people
back from the field.
We do in-service and I will saythat it's my experience that
much of the in-service is not asstellar as it should be, is not
as rigid as it should be or asrich as it should be.
It's almost like we're awayhere, we're going to tell you
what you have to know and thengo back to the field.
(39:49):
Yes, i think we've got to do abetter job.
I certainly don't want to seedoctors trained that way to
learn new surgery, right?
or a pilot who has to learn somenew technology.
I think we do ourselves a bitof a disservice by minimizing
the value and the potential forcontinuing education.
Mike Birzer (40:07):
Yeah, I agree.
I think too that us in academiain general need to reach out to
the police populations more,get them around the table and
talk about these ideas, whetherit's your jurisdiction level or
whether it's wider within yourstate.
You got to begin to kick aroundideas with practitioners And I
think once that happens, we'regoing to move forward
significantly.
That's great.
Steve Morreale (40:27):
So we're going to wind down.
I'm talking with Mike Berzer,Dr Mike Berzer, Michael Berzer,
he is a professor at WichitaState University and also a
former police lieutenant,sheriff's lieutenant.
He's very active in policing,very active in research.
I like the idea of qualitativeresearch.
So we wind down.
If you had a chance to talk tosomeone dead or alive besides OW
(40:49):
Wilson, who would you want topick their?
Mike Birzer (40:52):
brains.
Well, that's a good one, Youknow, probably give you an
international perspective.
Sir Robert Peel would love tohave a conversation with him And
, as you know, many of thoseprinciples at least, were
attempted in the United States.
So I would say internationally,Sir Robert Peel and then August
Volner.
Steve Morreale (41:08):
That's good.
And the last question I ask anawful lot of people is what do
you say to students aboutpolicing and to try to convince
them that they can have somevalue in policing in the future?
Mike Birzer (41:22):
I would say to students that obviously you can
look, you can watch the newsmedia every single night and
someone's going to be criticalof the police.
We have these incidents thatoccur every now and then, but
they don't happen every day.
But if you think that you wantto be a police officer it's an
honorable profession come in andchange from within.
That would be my advice.
Steve Morreale (41:42):
So what's on the agenda for the next semester?
What are you teaching?
Mike Birzer (41:45):
This next semester I'm actually in summer I'm doing
an online law enforcementcourse.
In the fall I'll be doingqualitative research method and
introduction to law enforcement.
Steve Morreale (41:54):
That's great.
I want to ask about thatqualitative course.
Tell me how you prosecute thatcourse.
Mike Birzer (41:59):
Okay.
So I approach it, i introducestudents to five approaches and
I draw from Cresswell's work aCresswell and Poth now.
But so we start out looking atnumber one the first few weeks.
What is qualitative research?
and kind of give the studentsan idea of how that differs from
quantitative orientations.
And then we get into fivedifferent approaches For the
(42:20):
semester.
We look at ethnography, we lookat case study, we look at
phenomenology, we look atbiographical research.
And to give the studentswhatever their research
questions are, what of theseareas do you think you would or
the approach to qualitativeresearch would most benefit the
questions you're trying toanswer?
So if you're interested in howcrime victims experience maybe
(42:40):
burglary, it lends itselfdirectly to phenomenology,
because that's what it is, it'sa study of experience.
So I give the students broadand this is a graduate level
course So oftentimes I'll havestudents that are in the PhD
program over in communitypsychology will take the course
and they've been orientedtowards quantitative research.
So gives them a whole differentoutlook on research and what
(43:01):
can be done with qualitativeresearch.
What tools do you choose to use?
There's several that really theinterview don't underestimate
the value of the interview Andof course the field field
observations with ethnography isvery important.
Being in the field, observingthat, whether as a participant
observer or a non-participantobserver, i think is very
important.
(43:21):
Got a graduate student nowthat's getting ready to defend
his ethnographic research.
He'd looked at rural lawenforcement culture in Kansas So
he literally had open access tothe site that he selected and
just spent months writing aroundwith the officers hanging
around the police station.
So that's what I encouragestudents to do more of is to get
into the field and observe anddo ethnographic types of
(43:43):
analyses as well.
Steve Morreale (43:44):
So I'll leave you with this question in terms
of software to do coding, to dothe collection, parse out some
of the characteristics, what doyou like to?
Mike Birzer (43:53):
use.
Well, I use a number ofdifferent programs.
In vivo is one.
Another one is just an Excelspreadsheet.
I'll begin to massage the data.
I think two and I did a lot ofkeep up on the field, the Odom
Institute at the University ofNorth Carolina.
They offer the summer intensiveand I've done those for the
past six years now And some ofthe best qualitative researchers
(44:14):
that are facilitating theseclasses will tell you that they
don't use anything.
They don't like anything tocome between them and the data.
They like to work it out onpaper in the transcripts or
their note cards or whatever.
I'm not quite to that point.
I do like the technology and Ithink it can offer some benefits
, but in the end it's still upto the researcher to make sense
of what that data is telling himor her.
(44:35):
And I could interpret transcriptor a number of transcripts,
much different than maybeanother person that comes in and
looks at those transcripts.
So it's a matter of that's thenature of qualitative work.
It's the interpretation of theresearcher.
Of course we've got ways to tryto, as you know, validate our
findings through member checkingand a number of differences.
Steve Morreale (44:52):
We can do.
Well, we've been talking to DrMichael Burser and he is a
prakademic working at WichitaState University doing a number
of things, including gettingready to write a book,
continuing to do research andtake top of it.
He's in Kansas City today andwe appreciate you sharing your
ideas, your thoughts here to theaudience.
The audience is a very oftenpeople coming to us from Canada,
(45:13):
New Zealand, from Australia,from Ireland.
I'm very proud to say so.
I'm happy to introduce them toyou and you to them.
How can people reach you ifthey would like?
Mike Birzer (45:23):
They can email me at michaelburzer at wichitaedu.
That's probably the best way.
Or just if you can't, if youdidn't copy that, just go to the
Wichita State University Schoolof Criminal Justice website and
I'm there.
That's terrific.
Steve Morreale (45:36):
Well, thanks so much for your time and your
energy.
Good luck this weekend.
I know you're out therefollowing some baseball and I
appreciate you taking a timewhile you're on the road.
Mike, thanks very much.
Have a great summer.
Mike Birzer (45:46):
You too.
Thank you so much for having meTake care.
Steve Morreale (45:48):
All right, that's another episode of the
Cop Doc Podcast.
I'm Steve Morale, coming to youfrom Boston.
Stay tuned for other episodes.
We'll be back in a couple ofweeks.
Intro/Outro (45:58):
Thanks for listening to the Cop Doc Podcast
with Dr Steve Moriale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Western State
University.
Please tune into the Cop DocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.
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