TCD: Peter J. Forcelli, ATF Executive (retired) and NYPD Homicide Detective.

Episode Transcript
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Steve Morreale (00:31):
Hey everybody, Steve Morreale coming to you
from South Carolina today and webegin another episode of the
cop doc podcast.
And today we go down to Herndon, Virginia, and we're going to
talk to a colleague of mine,Pete Forcelli.
He is a retired executive forthe Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms and Explosives.
You know they changed it toATFE, they don't use the E.

(00:54):
It's silent.
It's a silent E, it's a silent.
We had some conversationsbefore which I found very, very
enlightening and refreshing.
You are now an author, you werean NYPD officer, a detective in
homicide, and then you left foran agency ATF in New York 9-11
around , ironically and yourose to become an executive

(01:16):
there, but along the way therewere some bumps in the road.
You have written a book, theDeadly Path.
It is out very soon and I wantto talk about that.
But before we start there, tellus about what drew you to
policing in the first place,Pete.

Peter Forcelli (01:30):
I mean, I grew up in the Yonkers, which is just
north of the Bronx, so I kindof span the Yonkers Bronx my
whole life, well, at least mostof my life, over 40 years.
But growing up I remember beinga kid.
But I think I was about eightor nine years old and you know I
lived in an area that waschanging.
We were one of six whitefamilies left in the
neighborhood.
There was a housing projectacross the street from us.
Most of the buildings around uswere section eight.
There was an narcotics dealthat was happening in the

(01:51):
projects across the street andit turned into a gunfight.
I remember there was crimescene, crime scene tape and
everything.
It was weird, like I saw, thepolice were the only people who
can go on the other side of thetape.
And I don't know, when you're akid, you kind of I guess wow.

I want to be yeah, exactly.

Like they know, they know what's going on, like
and I don't know when I can'tfind out.
I guess the access that theyhad, it wasn't the shooting that
I thought was cool, but it wasjust like that they had control
of the situation, they knew whatwas happening.
So it was kind of intriguing.
And then I'm not going to lie,you know, I watched Starsky and
Hutch, I watched Kojak.

We all did.
A few cop shows.

CHIPS.
Yeah, yeah, and you know thefunny thing about that is that
you, when you go into theprofession, you know, and you're
young and naive, you think it'sall excitement and then you
very quickly realize no, it's alot of paperwork.
I remember an old timer told meand I agree with it, it's 95
percent boredom and then 5percent excitement and terror.
But yeah, so I went into it,you know, not realizing the
paperwork aspects of it, Ithought it was going to be a lot

(02:46):
more foot chases and all theexcitement and everything.
You adapt and you start torealize things.
And then the other thing is yougo in thinking you're going to
change the world and then youvery quickly realize no, you
can't do that, but you canchange a life.
You know, at a time, by doingthings and by doing the right
thing for people, you knowwhether it's helping them find
justice, helping them during amedical emergency, helping them
in a car accident.

(03:06):
You know you deal with peoplethat they're worse.
So I mean to be able to helpthem in those circumstances.
It was just incrediblygratifying to me.

Well, it's alluring and I think we join
with the best of intentions andthen reality sets in and there
is an awful lot of boredom, andironically, even in New York
City.
But when you look at 100% of aweek, 100% of a month, there's
only 10, 15, maybe 20%, andthat's high.
Where you're actually puttinghands on the rest is interacting

(03:34):
with people and taking reportsand stopping cars and just kind
of hanging out right.

Pete, oh yeah, no, absolutely.
And look, one of the things Ireally enjoyed like somebody
asked me, if you go back and doany of the 35 years over, what
would it be?
Truthfully, I love being adetective homicide detective.
I love being an agent.
I actually like being in chargeof an office because I felt
like I can empower my people.
But being a beat cop, like justwalk in the beat, because we
did back then in the house ofprojects, we walked, yes, patrol
, just talking to the people.

(04:00):
And the thing is, with theprojects there's a lot of folks
that have misconceptions aboutthe projects.
Oh, they're bad.
Well, yeah, there's a smallpercentage of people that live
there that ruin it for everybodyelse, but when you're talking
to the good people, theyappreciate you.
That's something I think that'slost in today's discussion.
It was just again 35 years of avery rewarding career.
That was the part that Iactually loved the most in
hindsight.

Yeah, well, you know it's interesting Walking
around and being on the beat andgetting to know the people.
You can be completely bored outof your minds, but to get to
know people, especially ifyou're personable, who cares who
you are?
I'm Officer Forsselly or I'mPete.
What's going on?
Tell me what's going on, howcan I help you?
It's those conversations, theway we relate, much like when we
get on the phone at first.
You know where are you from,what you do.

(04:40):
We're trying to makeconnections and even if somebody
is in the projects or insection eight housing, there's
still some great people, somewell-meaning people, as you say,
and that's the majority ofpeople.

Well, I remember , like you know, there were some
old timers that lived theThroggs Neck Projects, which was
where I did a lot of my footpost.
So I worked in other projectsas well, but that's where I
spent most of my time on foot.
And the old timers called mePete.
There was no, and that wasbecause I.
They obviously asked, but I gotto know them, so they'd play
dominoes and they'd be sittingon a street BS and but that
trust.
yeah, that trust, though paidback in drugs, because they

(05:13):
would come up to me and tell methings.
I remember there was oneinstance where there was a guy
who was wanted for a murder fora long time.
I think it was a concept heowned.
I don't remember his first time.
I think he went a bit Tyrone,he was wearing a dress, he was.
He was dressing as a woman toevade capture.
So I remember, when the oldtimers comes up, have you never
done that, Pete?
Not, not lately.
You put on too much weight toget away with it.
But he came up to me and hegoes hey, I heard the Bronx

(05:33):
homicide guys were here lookingfor this guy.
I just want to let you know,because I know you, he'd live in
this apartment and he'sdressing up as a woman.
So I passed this information onto the homicide guys.
They get him that night.
But it was because of thatinteraction.
He saw the homicide guys.
He didn't know them, he didn'tfeel comfortable going up to
them and talking to them, but hefelt comfortable coming to me.
So I think that's the thingthat's missing.
But what it really was wascommunity policing.

Yes, it was, it was which worked.
It does work.
It still works, Still works.
We have to break down thatdivide.
So I guess the question I wouldhave is see you're in Yonkers,
why didn't you come a Yonkerscup and instead go to NYPD?

Well, it's a funny story.
I did eventually take theYonkers police test.
Back when I took the NYPD test.
You could take the test at age16 and a half.
I was in 10th grade when I tookthe NYPD test.
I went down to the Taft HighSchool in the Bronx, took it,
passed it.
I later took the test forYonkers.
Didn't do well enough on thelist to get hired Full
disclosure I'm not the brightestguy, I'm not an academic.

(06:26):
And then later I even explored,I had like some discussions with
the Greenberg New York PoliceDepartment.
It was a good department andalmost took a job with them.
But by that time I really laida foundation in New York.
I love the job.
That job I just kind of liketurned down.
Yonkers never called me.
I never got the nod.
They didn't want you.
Yeah, they didn't need me.
But Greenberg I probably couldhave taken that job.

(06:48):
I mean, it never gave me thewritten offer but by that time I
just I really liked what wasgoing on.
I love the cops I work with.
Look, and you notice some copsare clowns.
I mean a very, very smallpercentage.
They give the organizations orthe precinct bad names, but some
of the people I work with aresome of the most noble human
beings I've ever ran into in mytravels as a human being on this

(07:08):
planet.
I agree.

And what you find is just because somebody
wears the badge and has the samepatch doesn't mean you're going
to take them home to Momma.
Most of the people you will,but there's a couple people that
I can recall, and certainlythat you can recall, that are on
that list that you say I don'tknow why they're doing what
they're doing, because theydon't have the same mindset that
I do Right.

But I'll tell you another thing too.
It was like, look, I had a verygood career, I'm proud of a lot
of things and I, look, I wentthrough some tough times as well
.
But my success was because ofthe things I stole from the good
guys.
Because I mean, you know this,you go through, you meet people
who have different skills andthings that they do techniques
and I'm like, well, I like that,I'm gonna use that.
And then you see some peoplethat show their backside and
you're like, you know something?
I don't wanna be like that.

(07:46):
So if I was to say that mycareer was successful, I would
really attribute it to thosecops I met early on in my career
who I just admired and wantedto emulate.
So I stole those goodcharacteristics, I tried to cast
aside the bad.
I'm sure I've had some badhabits and people might think
things of me that I'm not awareof, but I always try to do my
best and that's really all youcan do.
But I mean, I owe any success Ihad to the people I worked with

(08:08):
early in my career, who shapedme.

Okay, so you understand that a lot of what we
talk about on this podcast isabout leadership and we'll go
into that, because I wanna talkabout the book and about your
experience with ATF in a momentbut what you're saying is
identical in many ways to howyou formulate your own
leadership style.
You understand that you'relooking at leaders that you like
, that you wanna emulate, andyou're looking at leaders that

(08:31):
you say, when it's my turn, I amnever gonna be like that
asshole, and so we create almosta customized version of
ourselves through the livedexperiences.
Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, and look, if anybody was to ask me, hey,
what advice would you give me asan emerging leader?
I would say look, bring on tothe things that you see that you
believe in, emulate the leadersthat you respect, and look at
the bad habits, because you'lllearn just as much from the bad
ones as you do from the goodones.
Cast those aside.
But as a leader, I always foundthat, look, I was a work in
progress.
I never felt like I've attainedmy ultimate leadership
capabilities and now I'm readyto lead the charge.

(09:03):
I wanted to be called out.
I wanted to have thosediscussions.
When I was a special agent incharge, I had two ASACs.
It was funny because weoccasionally have.
I wouldn't call them argumentsbecause they weren't arguments,
but we would have heateddiscussions and sometimes at the
end of that discussion be like,hey, guys, I heard you, but
this is what we're doing.
And then there were other timeswhere it was like, hey, you're
right.
And it was weird, because tosome folks it was like it was
shocking, or then I would letpeople push back.

Have a voice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I worked for some great leaders and we could
talk about them more over theyears and I just I adore them.
They were so impactful to methat I wanted to be able to pay
it forward and be as impactfulto my people, and none of them
were like leader that led bypointing to the star on their
shoulder or the stripes on theirsleeve.
They were just good humanbeings who led with their heart

(09:46):
and led by example and cared fortheir people like they were
family.

Well, we're talking to Pete Forcelli.
He is a retired NYPD and ATFexecutive, has written a book
called The Deadly Path.
We're gonna get to that in amoment.
But, pete, as I'm looking atyou, I have the benefit of
looking at you on video, eventhough this is an audio
broadcast.
I have to say, like me, you'rea whole bunch smarter than you
look.

You just got them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's good, because I wastold I have a face for radio, so
I'm glad this is not on radio.

So, Pete, you spent a number of years with
NYPD, rising to be a detective,and a detective in a very
important unit, a homicide unitand then you decided maybe I'm
gonna leave here and go to thefeds.
What made you do that?

Couple things really.
In my last year as a homicidedetective I had a case that went
to trial.
That actually started before Igot into the homicide squad,
because in New York thedetectives in the precinct catch
the homicide and the homicidesquad comes in to help them
basically subject matter reps.
So I had a case that finallywent to trial in my last year.
It was a murderer of afour-year-old kid.
Kid named Joseph Dauphin.
He soiled himself.
He was being babysat by astepfather.

(10:47):
The stepfather changed him assoon as the stepfather changes
the kid's diaper.
The kid soiled himself again.
Kid was mentally handicapped.
So the guy went into a rage andbeat the kid to death Around
2000,.
The case went to trial andafter trial his killer was
sentenced to four years inprison.
Now, yeah, exactly Now.
The time when I was in Bronxhomicide we started this new
program called Operation TriggerLock where we would go after

(11:09):
people who got arrested withfirearms if they had an
underlying federal charge and wewould flip them because they'd
be looking at substantial timeFrom the feds.

Yeah, exactly that's a great way to squeeze
people Like you're not goinglocal, buddy, You're going
somewhere else.

Well, it was two-fold, Because in the Bronx
they averaged 45 days in jail inRikers Island for being a felon
in possession of a firearm.
Federally they averaged 46months, but usually not in New
York City.
So you weren't going into jailwhere you'd see people from the
neighborhood.
You were going maybe to Lompoc,California, Miami, Florida,
Sandstone yeah, Minnesota.

Minnesota was the favorite place that I would
suggest.
Hey, is your girlfriend good attravel?
You know the gamer thing?
You'd be messing with them,because have you ever heard of
Sandstone, Minnesota?
It's cold up there, it is.
Do you think she can fly backand forth like once a month?
You think she can afford that?

Anyway, I'm kidding, but you know it's the
head game, so.
But what was going on is wewere using those felon in
possession cases to flipdefendants and build CCE cases,
rico cases.
So I was working a lot with ATFalmost on a daily basis.
I worked extensively with theDrug Enforcement Task Force, red
Rum Group in New York, whichyeah, red Rum Murder backwards,
I know right the bestinvestigative team in New York

(12:18):
City of any agency was DEA's RedRum Group in the 90s in early
2000s the best.
So but seeing that I could havemore impact on really public
safety with the sentencing andeverything, I was like why am I
staying here in New York?
I love being a homicidedetective.
I love the people I worked with.
I can retire in five years.
But I knew I wasn't gonnabecause I love the job and it

(12:38):
was scary to leave and go toanother agency.
Having that impact on what Iwanted to do is career.
It's a calling it kind ofnudged me into saying you know
something, I'm gonna leave.
Took a huge pay cut in thebeginning, went over to ATF,
went through the academy, whichI was 34 years old.
I was a weightlifter, not arunner, and do you know the
academies?
It's all calisthenics andrunning.

I went the same one as you did.
I actually I was in the lastclass at DEA, that was at FLETC,
and then we went to Quantico,so I know exactly where you went
.

Yeah, yeah, running through the woods at
Glynco, but it was look, it wasa good move in hindsight Wasn't
an easy decision at the time.
And I was married.
My wife had to come along withme, my kids.
I had to go away for six monthswith young kids.
I had no regrets because I feltlike I was able to just do more
in pursuit of keeping peoplesafe.

It's a big step.
We're talking of Pete Forcelli,we're talking about his
transition from NYPD to ATF.
It always struck me and youknow my background I was an MP,
I was a local police officer, Iwas a detective and then I went
to DEA and I always felt thatDEA in the federal agencies, DEA
and ATF were the most friendlyto local law enforcement.
I agreed I always would scratchmy head.

(13:42):
So many of our colleagues camefrom a police agency into the
feds and adapted and adopted thenew idea.
And yet you'd also have peoplewho would work with you if this
is not your same experience whowere not previous local officers
and sometimes would begin tolook down on local officers.
And I would have to call themin and say listen to me, see
those guys over there with thebadge.

(14:03):
I don't care what color theirbadge, where they are, what the
patch is, we're in this together.
Don't you ever look down onlocal officers?
I could never have had thatfeeling.

Why is that the most?
One time in ATF Academy, how wewere better than them, was
actually a federal probationofficer and I' m just scratching
my head like you're kidding me,right?
But yeah, and look, there's oneother agency I'll throw into
the mix.
As far as being great partnerswith state and local is the
Marshals.

Yes, when it comes to hunting down fugitives
those folks.

That's their baliwick.
They're excellent at it, right,sure.
But yeah, I mean I neverthought of the FBI, because my
interactions with them whileI'll say I work with a couple
FBI guys who were great is theyhad this kind of institutional
arrogance.
Almost Forgive me for sayingthat I wiretapped get after
this, but they're almostcult-like sometimes in the way
they operate, where DEA and ATFwere more like hey man, we're

(14:49):
just here with you, We'll get inthe gutters at night on
surveillance.
Our headlights on our cars workbecause we use them when at the
bureau.
You'd see them at meetings at USAttorney's Office and rarely
out in the field, and again, notalways.
I don't want to paint with abroad brush.

But I mean, certainly I had similar
experience great people, butsometimes it struck me that
their organizational philosophywas that we and our mission is
way more important than anyother agency, including brother
and sister federal agencies,which just irked me.
Listen, Peter, I called youyesterday and I got an advance
copy of your book and very oftenI'll gloss through them and

(15:22):
I'll read bits and pieces of it.
You had me, you had me withyour story.
You had me with your storybecause I could relate, I could
understand what you went through, the good and the bad, the
highs and the lows.
If you remember, yesterday Icalled you and I said you suck
because you made me read a bookwhen I very rarely have the time
to read a book because I'mwriting and reading and getting
ready for these things andteaching.

(15:43):
But you had me right to the end.
And so let's talk about yougoing to ATF.
You, apparently, when youjoined ATF, it was right around
9-11, 2001.
So talk about that to start.

I got sworn in June 2001.
June 4th was actually the day Iraised my hand.
I was sworn in in Six WorldTrade, which wasn't one of the
two towers for those folks.
It's nearby.
I know it Exactly, it was 13story building.
It was the customs house.
So on 9-11, I was actually onmy way down to the Southern
District of New York when thefirst plane hit and I didn't see
it because even though thoseare tallest buildings in New
York City, there's plenty ofskyscrapers between them and the

(16:18):
FDR drive, which was where Iwas, and I got a phone call from
my boss saying a plane hit theNorth Tower.
You need to get there rightaway.
And I wasn't going for court orsomething.
I was going to a routinemeeting with the US Attorney's
office, had a great relationshipwith SDNY solid, solid office,
and I remember when I got downthere because I'm again, you
pointed it out earlier, you werecorrect, I'm not the sharpest
knife in Detroit- so I thoughtit would be like a Cessna or

(16:38):
some Piper Cub or some reallysmall place, and we've seen that
happen before.

That's what I thought at first, right.

So when I get there even when I pulled up
because I parked on the otherside of Seven World Trade but I
had a look over the building,kind of like when you get too
close to a traffic light, youknow what I mean and you have to
lean forward I remember lookingforward and seeing somebody
waving a white shirt or whatevera white cloth and thinking to
myself, wow, I wonder how thesefolks are going to get out,
because they were above the fireand I was like, well, I
remember 93 World Trade Centerbombing helicopters came, they

(17:07):
got out of the car and figuredlet me see what I can do to help
.
And what you're doing at thatpoint because it was just such a
huge scene is you're justfilling in whatever hole is in
front of you.
At that time so I was mostlytelling people move along, move
along so the fire apparatuscould get in and ambulances and
police cars.
Anyway, as the day went on, Iwatched the female EMT get
killed by debris when the SouthTower got hit, saw some NYPD

(17:28):
cops that I worked with walkinto the South Tower right
before it collapsed, knowingthat they lost their lives
instantly.
I wound up running north andducking under a fire truck which
is stupid because fire trucksnot going to support the weight
of a collapsing tower and I wasunder there for probably seconds
felt like minutes.
I spent three days there on thescene and then afterwards I
dealt with some things, man,because you know I had tried out

(17:48):
for NYPDZ issue the guys Iwatched walk into the South
Tower.
Two of them tried out with me,vinny Danes and John Coglin.
I got weeded out because I wasafraid of heights.
So there was this weird thingthat I just, in the days that
followed, felt really guilty.
Why am I still here and thoseguys are gone?
Maybe if I had the courage toclimb the Verrazano Bridge they
did, I would have been therewith them Like they were good
men.
Why do they deserve to die andI'm still here?

(18:10):
It got to the point where I'dnever missed a police funeral in
my career.
If a cop got killed in New York, I went.
If a cop got killed inneighboring jurisdiction, I went
.
I couldn't even go to theseguys' funerals because I felt so
guilty for being a survivor.
So anyway, as time went on, Iwas still working cases, I was
doing good stuff, but I wasrequired a lot to drive by Brown
Zero, because the US Attorney'sOffice is about half mile from

(18:31):
there.
As the crow flies, maybe less.
And then to get to our officein Red Hook I would have, the
easiest way was to drive throughthe Holland Tunnel and then go
through the Brooklyn BatteryTunnel.
I was driving past Brown Zeroall the time and it really got
old.
I would get choked up and itjust it wasn't something that
was sitting well with me.
So I put in to transfer and getout of New York because you
can't just leave to go to anagent position.
So I wanted that putting in forsupervisory position.

(18:52):
So I put in for jobs inSavannah, jacksonville, dallas
and Phoenix where the opening'sat the time and I wound up
getting selected in Phoenix and,look, I love being an agent in
New York.
Working cases with SDNY wasphenomenal because they were
just great people and just fullyengaged in working cases and,
look, if you brought them a casethat needed some work, they'd
say, hey, we'll take the case,but we want you to do.

A, b and C yeah, they give you some guys.
So, having read your book, weknow what it is that a jury, a
judge, will consider and we needyou to work on this angle, that
angle.
That's the way I think arelationship between prosecutors
and investigators should be.
I remember having an argumentwith somebody in the Newark
office and I worked with SDNY.
But I remember going down oneday and I don't know if you've

(19:33):
ever had this experience, but hewas trying to tell me how to
investigate.
I finally said to him listen tome, I don't know who you think
you're talking.
You get a pair of balls at somepoint, but I don't tell you how
to prosecute, don't you tell mehow to investigate.
You can suggest, but don'torder me.
You understand the differenceand, believe me, that pushback
was all we needed to have a verygreat relationship from that

(19:53):
point forward, because he knewhow hard or how soft, how much
latitude he had to push me andnot collaborate with me.
You understand, I think.

I do, but let's talk about the importance of
that.
If you're a federal agent,there are things that you often
need that you can't do as afederal agent, that you need
that partnership.
All right, I need a court orderto take a guy out of MCC so he
can drive around theneighborhoods with us and point
out the addresses where theycommitted these robberies.
As an agent, you can't do thatwithout an AUSA.
You need subpoenas, you need todo an investigative grand jury.

(20:22):
That partnership is vitalbecause if you're not getting
that, you'll never reach yourfull potential as an
investigator.
Because if every time you try towork a case, you run into an
obstacle or a wall, then youdon't learn these nuances, you
don't learn how to make thesegreater cases.
So what I always tell people isbecause I worked some cases I'm
really proud of, but it wasn'tme alone, it was a team.

(20:42):
And if, exactly, and if theAUSAs on those cases had told me
no, I would have never beenable to have those successes.
So it was a joint success andthat's why, like in hindsight,
some of my relationships withthe AUSAs from the Southern
District of New York are tighterthan they were with some of the
agents I worked with Becauseyou work with them on a bigger
case more intimately than you doyour own group sometimes.

Well, very often , when you start doing that work
, you spend more time in theiroffices than you do in your own
office

I know between the Triggerlock cases we were
doing and the RICO stuff, whichis exactly why I was going to
SDNY on 9-11.
Because I was working with themwhen I was in Bronx Homicide
and I was kind of a weird storywhen I got sworn in with ATF.
I took a case that I wasworking with, redrum from NYPD
and my boss at Bronx Homicide.
It was a home invasion case andhe was like look, we're the
homicide squad, you've put a lotof work into this, take it, he

(21:32):
goes.
I don't care, you give me agift, he goes.
If your agency won't lead, takeit, bring it back.
So I have my first meeting withmy brand new group supervisor,
who's an old timer.
The guy's name was Jerry Rafa,love him.
And I tell him look, I havethis case.
It's a home invasion case.
We think these guys wereinvolved in a bunch of home
invasions.
You could have said hey, listen, pal, you're a brand new agent,
you're going to do what we said.
He's like yeah, keep doing it,keep working the case.

But you walked in season, you walked in with
connections, you walked in withknowledge, so I can understand
why you got that.
I was 30 years old when Ibecame an agent and here I am
Got to work through it, butultimately remember my boss, my
best boss.
I was John Cipriano, a formercustoms guy.
He has passed since, but Iremember him calling me in about
a year or two into Newark andhe said to me Steve, I want you

(22:12):
to go to Elizabeth and I wantyou to make a case.
That was his guiding and Ilooked at him and I said what do
you mean?
What kind of case?
I don't care.
Whatever case you can.
I'm hearing that Elizabethneeds some help, so go and find
out who's the target they can'thit.
I don't care what it is, go doit.
And that was the guidance.
And he was a guy who I said Iwant to emulate him when I
become a boss, and every singleone of the people in my DEA

(22:34):
group became managers andexecutives under his tutelage,
and you understand that.

Well, I tell you , I'm very good friends with a
gentleman who lives in a townnearby His name's.
Derek Maltz.
He was a supervisor in the DrugEnforcement Task Force back
when I worked with the Red Roomguys and they loved him.
And it's funny because if youtalk to people who worked in DEA
in New York 20 years ago whenDerek was there he's gone 20
years now roughly they light upwhen you talk about him because

(23:02):
he's one of those leaders whoempowered people, who wasn't a
bully, who had the authority.
If you wanted to make people'slives difficult, he didn't.
He's actually one of the peoplewho I tried to steal some of
that skill from, and you was inmy dealings with Michael.

He is still banging the gong, one of the
loudest people as it relates tothe fentanyl crisis in America.
But John Maltz, his dad, ranthe DEA, the Drug Enforcement
Task Force, where you would pairNew York PD with State Police
and DEA and other agencies.
Amazing task force, yeah.

And his father's a legend, and so is Derek.
Yes, I know he made his dadproud yeah, I did, but I love
the guy.

He's a great guy , he did so listen, you end up
saying I'll go, I'm going toPhoenix and you're going to
bring some of the ideas youbring to Phoenix from New York,
and along the way it sounds likeyou had a little bit of a brush
up that people would say to youyou know, that may be the way
we do it in New York, but wedon't do it here.
And I hear that when you gofrom one place to another you

(23:57):
began to have some issues.
You were hearing from yourpeople about the difficulties
they had with the US Attorney'sOffice accepting cases, sort of
dodging cases, sitting on cases,very frustrating.
So let's go down that roadbecause, talking to Pete
Ferselli, he's retired formerNYPD homicide investigator and
ATF agent group supervisor andultimately an executive and you

(24:21):
ran into some problems.
Well it's weird Pete I remembermy first weekend in Phoenix.
You know I'm new and look, Ialways believe when you're the
boss, you go in and you need toobserve for a while.
I know that each field divisionhas its own nuances and their
regional differences and there'sthe 9th Circuit versus the 2nd
Circuit.
So I didn't go in like a bullin a china shop.
I figured let me watch andobserve.
And the first thing is on thefirst weekend out there I get a

(24:43):
call from one of my agents whogot a call from a licensed gun
dealer who said, hey, man got aguy just came in here, he's got
a bag full of money and he askedfor all of the AK variant
rifles we have on the shelf.
So like in New York, somethinglike that would have been front
page news.
So like, okay, muster thetroops, we go out there.
This transaction happens likebecause the dealer would wait
for us to get to the parking lotand then look, if we couldn't
be there they wouldn't make thesale or they would delay the

(25:04):
sale to get there.
So they had good relationships.

That was community policing with the
licensed dealers 1000% so, butanyway, we get out there and we
watch this transaction takeplace.
One of my agents goes in andlike he's shopping you know
undercover, you know, butalthough not fully undercover,
you know what I mean and wewatch these 13 AK-47s get loaded
into a U-Haul and it starts tohead down the I-10.
We follow it.
We don't want to stop the carin the parking lot, we don't
want to burn the gun dealer.

(25:27):
So we get the guys out of thecar, we separate them.
They lie through their teethabout where they were coming
from.
Different stories.
You know just what cops doBasic policing, nothing fancy.

So exactly, exactly.

Exactly Correct.
So in New York we would havecalled an AUSA and it would have
been like, hey, all right,bring them in, We'll write up a
complaint, we'll charge them.
So now, granted, I'm in Phoenix, different animals, so calls
made and AUSA is like all right,let them go.
We can consider indicting it inthe future, which bothered me a
little bit, because here yougot guys that were smuggling a
lot of guns illegally and youknow they're armed now, and if I
have to go and have my peoplego arrest them later they could

(26:00):
be armed again.
So you're putting your peoplein harms way twice.
But again, I'm new, I'm like,okay, well, no worries, we'll
just do this, bit my tongue, welet them go.
I would watch that scenariounfold again and again and again
.
The problem is there was neverHaywool and Died and Later never
came.
I remember opening up our casemanagement system.
My group had 448 open cases,which is unheard of just open,

(26:20):
just sitting there.
So I start scrolling throughsome of them and I see that it
referred to the prosecutor for adecision Six cases within my
first couple weeks to getthrough.
Them had literally sat therewaiting a decision so long that
the statute of limitationsexpired.
Yeah, so then within a fewweeks of my arrival I get
summoned up to the special agentin charge's office, which, as
you know, is kind of a big deal.
You know had special agent incharge in a Phoenix Field

(26:41):
Division was a guy named BillNoll nice man, perhaps one of
the nicest human beings I everworked for, but didn't have a
lot of field experience.
And he was one of those guyswho was a good guy, who wanted
to just make everybody happy,and that meant external partners
as well, you know.
So he wasn't big into rufflingfeathers yeah.
Yeah, so who comes to thismeeting is the chief of the
Phoenix Criminal Division, niceman named John Tucci and the

(27:01):
chief of the gun unit at thetime, a woman named Rachel
Hernandez, who was not verypleasant.
So the meeting is calledbecause she's upset.
Because ATF was using aninformant who she said was not
credible and we had like a lotof cases weighing on this
informant's information.
So she said he's not credible,we're not using him anymore.
I was pretty heated because ofthe relationships I had a
Southern District so I figuredmy agents were bringing her

(27:21):
substandard cases.
They weren't doing theirhomework.
So I went downstairs and I'mnot going to say I read the riot
act to them, because that's nothow I was brought to lead by
the men we spoke about earlier,but I said hey, man, what's
going on here?
Like we got a problem and look,it wasn't entirely on US
Attorney's Office's fault Insome instances.
My agents were taking a casereport to them and giving it to
them.
Say, hey, take a look at this,let me know what you think,
rather than selling the case,because you have to go there and

(27:43):
sell the case so I have themdeposit on my desk and, if I can
interrupt and follow up on it Iknow that that was an issue.

Like guys, it's your case, push it, yes.

No, yeah, absolutely.
But anyway, I have this pile ofcases in front of me and I go
through them and the informantsinformation was spot on.
So I call this woman back andI'm like hey, wait a minute, you
know this.
A lot of cases hanging intobalance.
If you decide the blacklist isCI, these traffickers are going
to get a pass.
And I looked at the cases andthe information that he's given
is dead on the money.
So she's like Well, no, no, youdon't understand.
He was moved with emergencywitness assistance program funds

(28:14):
.
Doj policy says we can't usehim.
That didn't sound right.
So I call the victim witnessassistance person in Southern
District who handled some of themost significant cases that DOJ
had run mob cases.
She's like that's not true,pete, there's no such policy.
Just have to notify the defensethat he was paid this money if
they asked.
And then I confirmed it withsomeone at main justice who she
gave me a name of.
But then I went back to thiswoman again and she's like you

(28:35):
don't understand, this informantwears too many gold chains.
The jury will never relate tohim Finally.
So we're not using him.
So now, in addition to the caseswhere they weren't indicting
based on car stops and whatnot.
Now we had an informant who wasblacklisted unjustifiably.
That led to many, many casesgetting dismissed.
So I was like, all right, stillwe have to find a way to move
on.
I tried to argue with her.
You know how it works with theUS Attorney's Office to make a

(28:56):
decision, you're stuck with thatdecision.
So then we had some other caseswhere one example was there
were a bunch of people killedwith a firearm that was smuggled
into Mexico 21 people,including four cops.
The gun was purchased two daysearlier.
Right Now in ATF, if the gunshows up at a crime scene less
than two years after it waspurchased from a retail
purchaser kind of a hint that itprobably was a traffic gun 48

(29:17):
hours is unbelievable.

So in that particular case, in that
particular case.

We interviewed the straw purchaser.
He confessed.
We interviewed the traffickerwho brought it to Mexico, he
confessed they declined the casebecause the gun was in Mexico,
saying the body of the crime wasin Mexico.
The body of the crime on astraw purchase in case is the
form that they lied on.
So I mean this went on and onand on for years where there was
one case.
I remember, I guess one of myagents, mario Mario, what's the
status of this case?

(29:42):
And to your point earlier, hewas not doing the follow up he
should have done.
So we, I have to takeresponsibility to bore some
responsibility there.
So he does, he goes, has thefollow up with the assistant US
Attorney that has the case.
Now our case reports are like amedium blue, like a little
darker than a, like a powderblue dress shirt, you know, like
a French blue, like the NYPDuniform shirt.

You mean the jacket, the jacket, the jacket,
yes, the jacket.

He comes back after going to meet with this
prosecutor and puts it on mydesk.
He goes boss.
I just don't know what to say.
The blue jacket, the cover wasbleached paper, white like
typing paper, white from sittingin the sun on this AUSA's
windowsill untouched for almosta year.
So this is the kind of stuffthat we were dealing with on a
daily basis.
So I had a formulae topartnership with the Arizona
Attorney General, which didn'tdo gun cases because they saw

(30:25):
the gravity of what washappening with the guns flowing
into Mexico.
But meanwhile the federalprosecutors, whose duty it was
to work those cases, couldn'thave cared less.

But I'm sorry to cut you off, but don't you see
it happening again at the border?

I see it at the border I see it in Chicago, I
see it in Washington DC rightnow.
There was recently a pressconference where the United
States Attorney for the Districtsaid we're not going to arrest
our way out of this situation.
Well, when you're allowingrampant crime to go unabated and
you're not punishing criminals,they're going to continue to
offend.
I mean, this is the word getsout, not rocket science.

Yeah, nothing's going to happen, so just do it.
I know yeah.

So it's more than just the border, and it's
unfortunate because theheartbreaking thing for me was I
would watch my agents do thingsthe right way, and, granted,
they should have been moreaggressive in following up on
their cases, but you got toremember, before I got there
they were beaten down by beingtold no all the time too.
So in some ways they threwtheir hands up.
But just knowing they wouldnever reach their full potential
as investigators because ofthat lack of engagement by the

(31:21):
US Attorney's office to me as aleader was not an easy thing to
swallow.

So at some point in time, there was a man named
John that had sort of had enough, ended up going and blowing the
whistle on some things thatwere going on at the border.
But as I read your book, yousat back and watch what they
were doing to this person who,in your mind, was but was doing
the right thing for the rightreason, because no one was
listening, people were gettingkilled and you weren't able to

(31:47):
do your job and ultimately youmade a phone call to
congressional office in supportof this John, and that changed
your life, I understand.
So tell us about it In late2009,.

My group's mission was changed to home
invasions because Phoenix wasleading the country and home
invasions and kidnappings and Ihad some familiarity with
working those cases with the RedRoom guys in New York.
So that's when the group knownas Group Seven the group that
had Fast and Furious, which wasnot located in our office space,
it was located at an offsiteand I had never met John Dodson.
But their job became theMexico-bound firearms
trafficking case.
So I would hear these rumblingsat meetings about guns walking

(32:21):
and you know not, people notstopping cars and I never in a
million years envisioned thatthey were letting them ride off
into the sunset.
I just think they were doingsomething different and I'm not
arrogant enough to think I knoweverything.
And when I would question, hey,what are you guys doing?
I was always told hey, pete,don't worry about, we got it
covered, we're doing somethingdifferent.
All right, I never thoughtdifferent meant letting guns go
into Mexico.
So, yeah, john Dodson was inthat group and I don't know that

(32:42):
I ever met John Dodson at thatpoint.
I mean I might have run intohim at the range.
I don't know that I ever had aconversation with him, but I had
heard that he had contactedSenator Grassley's office and
told them that guns were walking.
And I heard this at a meetingthat was being held by my
special agent Charge, billNewell, and in his discussion
about that he said the USAttorney's office isn't happy
about John Dodson.
Don't be surprised if JohnDodson died.

(33:03):
And I'm sitting there for aminute.
My blood started to boil, steve,because I was thinking back
about all of these firearmstraffickers that we referred for
prosecution, that they wouldn'ttake.
I mean, some of them involvedbodies, some involved multiple
bodies on the guns that theywere trafficking.
And we were told no, no, no.
And now you're going to have tothe nerve to indict.
And I thought at the time theywere going to indict him for

(33:23):
blowing the whistle.
I didn't know if they werelooking at other things.
So to me it's like, well, he'sblowing the whistle, they're
going to indict him.
It was unconscionable.
So, yeah, I went home, I toldmy wife what was going on and I
said look, I'm going to make aphone call tomorrow and not
going to lie and say I didn'thave a couple of shots at the
keel at night.
Following morning I woke up andI called a guy named Brian
Downey, who worked for ChuckGrassley's office in the
Grassley, and I said look, Iknow you're being told that John

(33:45):
Dodson's lying and that gunsaren't walking, but he's not
lying and if you give me asubpoena I'll tell you
everything you want to know.
And yeah, they've actually camewith a subpoena and things
changed.

For sure you became a whistleblower, which is
quite interesting.
It is a major step that youwould have to take, but I would
dare say that one of the reasonswas because you were resting on
principle and on some internaldrive to say right, it's right,
and I can't allow this to happen, because people are not doing
their job.
And now they're trying tocastigate someone who's trying

(34:15):
to point the finger at apractice that is causing the
nation difficulty and gettingpeople killed because of guns
that are being released.

Let's keep in mind a lot of people talk about
heroes in the Fast and Furiousand this one was here.
Look, there was one hero inOperation Fast and Furious and
that was a Border Patrol agentnamed Brian Terry who was
patrolling the border arealooking for drug robbers who
were down here patrolling thedeserts themselves robbing drug
carriers.
So Brian was killed with a gun.
That was part of the Fast andFurious case and John came

(34:44):
forward at that point.
So I mean, you know, inaddition to John possibly being
indicted, it nodded me that inthe I didn't know the relevance
because I wasn't in that groupand they were keeping all that
stuff very walled off.
But then now you got a deadBorder Patrol agent, you got an
ATF agent stepping forward andthey are talking about rumblings
, about possibly inditing thatagent.
And then, once that happened,people from that group started
to talk water cooler talk whereyou're hearing.

(35:06):
No, they did walk on because wedidn't in a million years
because that's not what ATF doesthat they weren't interdicting
firearms.
I heard one story from theagents in that group where this
is how unconscionable it is, andI don't put everything into
book because the book would havebeen too long there was a deal
that they did at the ScottsdaleGun Club, which was one of those
dealers that I spoke aboutearlier who was cooperative.
Good people called us everytime there was a transaction and

(35:26):
the traffickers spotted thesurveillance.
So the traffickers not knowingthe surveillance is ATF, because
these people are dealing withcartel people.
So you know, cartel people fearother cartel people.
They call the Scottsdale police.
Scottsdale police come and gavethese guys an escort from the
scene with the guns that theyhad purchased, believing
Scottsdale police, believing itwas a legitimate purchase, and

(35:48):
ATF sitting there allowing it tohappen.
Because the US Attorney'sOffice said well, we can't prove
that this particulartransaction isn't them buying
guns for their own personal use.
These are the kind of thingsthat were going on there that
shocked the conscience.
But again, in all of theseinstances, to me it was also
important because, knowing whatwas going on there, I also knew
that the good agents in Phoenix,who had nothing to do with Fast

(36:10):
and Furious, were, every timethey were doing things the right
way, being told no, no, no, andthey were frustrated and they
weren't reaching the potentialthat they would have had had
they had that buy-in.
And look, it wasn't the entirePhoenix US Attorney's Office.
It was the gun unit of the USAttorney's Office and some of
the managers above that.
And the other thing that wasfrustrating and it weighed into
my decision too was the PhoenixUS Attorney's Office used to

(36:31):
occasionally hire former countyprosecutors and I would see
those folks come in because wewould do meet and greets and
they were good people who wouldcome in like exuberant, like wow
, you know, I'm finally going tomake it to the big time.
I'm a federal prosecutor now,excited.
And then you would talk to themsix months later and they were
beaten down too.
They wanted to do the rightthing, but that office's
policies just beat them intolike being down, like they

(36:52):
weren't who they were when theyshowed up, and that is also
heartbreaking.
They weren't my people, butthey were good people.

So, as you talk about what went on at the US
Attorney's Office and above youin some cases, where, in essence
, this was either allowed withknowledge or because of
potential ineptness, you cameforward and you.
So here you are, you're asupervisor, you're watching
what's going on, you're tryingto help your group become

(37:17):
productive, and part ofproductivity obviously would be
that you get your casesprosecuted.
And now you see that there isresistance from the US
Attorney's Office.
You see John Dodson almostbeing blacklisted because he is
doing what he thinks is theright thing and you believe what
he's been saying is accurate.
So you become, in essence,whistleblower with Congress and

(37:41):
what happened after all of thosethings?

Long before there was a televised hearing.
You know there's depositions.
So I went and I was deposed.
It was like April of 2011.
I laid everything on a tableFirearms cases.
There was a grenade case thatwe had that they wouldn't
prosecute.
I just put it all out there, youknow, because I just think
transparency is an importantthing and you can't fix what you
won't talk about.
So, literally, the deposition,rather, was staffed by people

(38:06):
from Senator Grassley's office,chairman Leahy's office he was
the chairman of JudiciaryCommittee then Darrell Issa, who
was chairman of Oversight, andElijah Cummings's office.
So the staffers there's nopoliticians there, this is
professional staff, theirattorneys.
So I put it all out there and Ileft and I had to walk about
six blocks back to my office andon the way back I get a phone
call from someone from the USAttorney's Office.
I had some friends there.
Many of them were thoseprosecutors that come there

(38:28):
wanting to do good and they'relike hey, pete, just watch your
back.
Buddy, everything you said wasrelayed to the United States
Attorney, okay from thedeposition.
Yeah, at the deposition, at aclosed door deposition, I was
told after the fact that it camefrom Leahy staffers, which
makes sense.
He was Judiciary Chair at thetime, so anyway, no problem.
Then a couple of days later Iget a call said hey, can we meet
for coffee, from anotherprosecutor from that office.

(38:50):
And he hands me an email andit's from the United States
Attorney, the Chief LawEnforcement Officer of the State
of Arizona, federal, saying anycontact with Pete Fersely, who
include seeing him having coffeewith his family on weekends, is
to be reported to me throughyour chain of command
immediately.
So I realize, okay, I'm goingto have some problems here,
which is tough because as agroup supervisor you're not only

(39:10):
supervising your people, you'realso the advocate between your
people and the US Attorney'sOffice when things go sideways.
And I realize it's not going tobe easy.
So lo and behold.
Now I realize they keep an eyeon me.
And then one day I'm driving towork and I see that I'm being
held and I don't still.
To this day I don't know whowas Cause.
Oig was also doing someinvestigations at the time.
But is it?
Oig Is?

it.
Is it DOJ, Right?
Yeah?

So there were a couple of days where I saw some
surveillance.
I'm like, okay, which wasfrightening, because now at this
point I realize I need a lawyerand I know how federal law
enforcement works.
They can monitor phones, theycan monitor emails.
Any contact I have with mylawyer, I need to do it face to
face, which became costly.
So I got to a point where, look,I was never wealthy, but we had
a beautiful house in the desertin Gilbert, Arizona.

(39:53):
We had a waterfall pool, like3000 square feet.
I had modest mortgage paymentbecause I put a lot of money
down on the house, we put a lotof money into the house and we
got to the point where, betweenthat and the lawyer stuff and my
wife who had to have a totalknee replacement, which was
costly we were broke.
We got to the point where wehad like $20 something $26 I
believe in our savings accountand we had a mortgage payment

(40:13):
coming.
So I wound up having to take myprice possessions with three
watches I had.
It was a watch guy had an OmegaSeamaster, had a Breitling
Chrono Cockpit and a BreitlingChrono Mat had to
pawn them to make the mortgagepayment and then the following
month there was another mortgagepayment.
So I had a bunch of tools.
I had a whole yard sale to meetthe mortgage and I had to sell
my kids backpacks.

(40:33):
I had to sell a rifle mygrandfather left me which is
incredibly humbling when you'rethere with people trying to
negotiate your price down of thethings that you are in most
price possessions in yourdriveway no one.
I got to feed my family and Igot to pay the mortgage.
So I wound up having to leaveshort-sell eventually .
The house lost a ton of moneythat we put into the house.

(40:53):
My daughter full-ride ascholarship to the Cronkite
School of Journalism.
She didn't feel safe staying inArizona so we walked away from
an $82,000 scholarship.
It was financially crippling andI didn't know at that point
whether I would continue to beable to work for ATF cause it's
funny like when I actuallytestified at the hearing that
was televised it was on C-span.
Nobody watches C-span, Iunderstand.
I remember my wife calling mebecause she was watching Fox

(41:16):
News at the time and on thecrawler on the bottom it said
former ATF special agent PeterForcelli about to testify.
So my wife, as I'm standingthere with my hand raised,
thinks I'm about to get fired,or thought I was fired.
So you know she's calling me,freaking out, and I'm just like
hey, I can't talk right nowabout the testify.
It was a rough ride that lastedabout four years and there were
a bunch of differentinvestigations and different

(41:38):
allegations that I had todisprove.
But in the end I was able tokeep my job because full
disclosure I had some supportfrom some folks in ATF who
literally said to me their exactwords.
This guy named Tom Brandon andeventually the director of ATF,
first Senate confirmed directorBita Jones.
They never fought for me butthey gave me the space to fight
for myself, which is a lot, butpolitically it wasn't the smart

(41:59):
move for them to do.
But, tom, when I told Tom I hadgotten subpoenaed, he'd handed
me a St Michael's Challenge coinand said as long as you're
telling the truth, I have yourback.
At the time he was just a sack.
He wasn't like a higher levelperson and he kept to his word,
like when I was there sluggingit out with DOJ, slugging it out
with the US Attorney's Office.
Tom never said, hey, stop.
He said if you're gonna gofight and do something publicly,
do it on your time, take thetime off.

(42:20):
Don't give DOJ any ammo.
He gave me good counsel and letme fight my battles, and that's
what I did.
I stuck to the truth and Ifought my battles.

Well, I think there's the story that focused
on the truth.
It was an ethical dilemmaShould I or should I hide like
everybody else?
Should I not?
But once you raise your handand say I wanna tell a story,
you became almost a lone wolf.
You were all by yourself.
That's not an easy thing to doand certainly you survived.
It was terrific.
I'm glad to hear it.
You were able to retire.
They gave.

(42:47):
Ultimately you were promoted.
You became Deputy AssistantDirector.

I ended my career as the head of training,
which was nice because by thetime I got to the end I was kind
of tired of the politics andthe bureaucracy and so the nice
thing was I would get to see thefresh new faces coming in who
weren't ground down yet.
They were coming inenthusiastic.
So it helped me to see that,but it also kept me on focus
because I couldn't be thatbeaten down curmudgeon.

(43:10):
It made me look at things froma more optimistic perspective,
to be that leader that theyneeded to hear from, instead of
some curmudgeonous old grouchwho was gonna complain about the
job, just negative.
I wanted to focus on the greatparts of the job, the things
that I loved, the things thatcan't be, that I still miss now
in retirement having the impact.

So at one point in time we're running a long
episode so I have to cut itshort a little bit and I
apologize for that.
You wrote a book.
What moved you in that direct?
Tell your story more broad.
There were a couple of things.

One is look, I'm not gonna lie, I never made
that money back that I paidlawyers.
There was a settlement with theDOJ Behind closed doors.
I can't disclose it, but I'llsay that I never left that room
with a penny richer.
So I mean financially, I took abeating in retirement.
So I'd like to see if I canmake some of that money back,
put that on the table.
But the other reasons were look,when you followed that scandal
back in a day, you either heardthe Democrat version of events

(44:02):
that happened or the Republicanversion of events.
The Democrat version was thatit started under Bush.
The Republican version it wasstarted from the White House.
Neither of those are true.
Look, it happened during theObama administration.
They never fully owned it, butit didn't start in the White
House.
So there's that.
I wanted to tell the real, notpolitical, story about what
happened.
But the other thing is, as thehead of the academy, as the head
of training, every now and thenI'd meet a young agent.
You know how it is, some people, they just happy to get a job,

(44:24):
so some people just show up.
But every now and then I wouldmeet an agent who was coming in,
who did his homework andGoogled ATF and looked at the
history and said, hey, what youwanted to whistleblowers?
I mean, yeah, did we really dothat?
And we had proposed puttingtogether some training, not just
for the new agents but foragents in other parts of the
country that really don't knowthe true story.
It's funny.
I had an agent recently when hecame out that I wrote the book,
said hey, thanks for doing thisCause.

(44:44):
Anytime we mentioned Fast andFurious, it was like talking
about Voldemort.
I didn't know who Voldemort was.
I had to look it up.
But I guess you, it's kind oflike Fight Club, right.
But we had proposed puttingtogether a training so that
something like this could neverhappen again.
And what I was told is we don'ttalk about that.
And that was from ATF uppermanagement and from main justice
.
So how do you prevent it fromhappening again if you don't

(45:06):
explain what happened?
Because what look?
You read it.
What happened there was theyabandoned some very basic
policing principles, so itwasn't like some kind of
creative thing where they cameout of left field.
People walked away from thebasic.
So I want to highlight that sothat folks won't make that same
mistake in the future and wewere told no.
So now that I'm retired, I cantell that story for the new
agents, for the general publicthat wants to really find out

(45:27):
what happened, or for the agentsin other parts of the country
who wanted to know but werenever given the straight answer.

Well, I think it has a much wider potential
audience in my mind, because lawenforcement, overall, state,
local, federal, county thesekinds of things can happen at
times, and to me you raised yourright hand, like I did,
swearing to uphold theconstitution, and when that
isn't done, you can stand on thesideline and just complain
about it at the water cooler oryou can bring it forward so

(45:54):
something can be done to avoidit from continuing to happen,
and I think that's what youtried to do.
What was the experience ofwriting?
Was it cathartic?

It was both cathartic and humbling because
full disclosure when I wrote thebook, the manuscript was
174,000 words, which is reallylong, and I was a cop for a long
time, Steve, so you can imaginethat it read like a 174,000
word police report.
That's where Keelyne McGregor,my co-author, came in.
She specializes in editing andshe took it and really just

(46:22):
turned it into something.
I've been told that it readssomewhat like a novel and I've
even been told it's somewhatentertaining to read.
That credit goes to Kate forworking her magic.
So I mean, I wrote a lot aboutwhat happened.
She paired it down to a muchmore readable, roughly 80,000
words and put in the rightadjectives and the flavors and
how the sunlight reflected off,whatever, and made it something

(46:43):
that I think most people willenjoy reading, a lot more than
Pete for Selly's very lengthyreport of investigation.

So it's out in the next few weeks and I know
that chances are you'll be doinga lot of interviews on it and
I'm glad to grab you, fellowcolleague, both as a police
officer, previously federalagent, now retired In terms of
leadership.
What are the lessons?

Do the right thing and fight for your
reputation, because it's theonly thing that you take with
you when you leave.
I've seen leaders lead by power, by bullying, thinking it's all
about them.
And look, we've seen this inthe world, too, where leaders do
things that are stupid becausethey think that they're smarter
than everybody, or that no one'sgonna notice, or that because
they're in a position of power,they can get away with it.
I've always strived, becauseI've worked for some great guys
John Cutter, al Mataraso.

(47:25):
I worked for some chiefs who Iif I failed and not just chiefs,
supervisors at lower levels ifI failed, I would have been
heartbroken that I let them down.
So I wanted to be like them.
I wanted my people to do right,because they didn't wanna let
me down, not because they wereafraid of me, and I just always
wanted to lead by example, and Ithought by not stepping up and
doing the right thing, whatexample would I be setting?

(47:47):
But it wasn't because I wantedany kind of notoriety, it wasn't
because I wanted to go throughwhat I went through or put my
family through what I wentthrough.
It was because I realized thateverything that matters when I
leave is my reputation.

So you paid a price for stepping up.
Tough question was it worth?

I think so.
The hard part was look, Iraised my hand to defend the
Constitution, take the job, andI loved 99% of what I did.
My family didn't sign up for it, so I feel bad for them.
But listen, in hindsight, mykids are both ATF agents.

No, I didn't know that wow.

So, despite seeing what I went through, they
knew how much I loved the joband the mission of actually
taking bad guys off the streetsthat they decided to go down
that path.
So I guess maybe in some waysit was worth it, but I wouldn't
wanna go through that again forthem or for me.

Frankly, I understand that, but for me, as
someone who spent 35, 40 yearsin law enforcement, I have to
say you are a testament to greatand noble agents or police
officers for having done whatyou did, for standing up, being
willing to write, putting yourname out there and, by the same
token, coming out the other sidestill standing straight and

(48:50):
with pride.
Thank you, I mean that.
So we're talking to PeteForcelli and he has a book out
that is just released.

It's called The Deadly Path: How Operation Fast and Furious (48:57):
undefined
Armed Mexican Cartels.
And by the way, we didn't talka whole bunch about the cartels,
but certainly I know you werebouncing back and forth to
Mexico.
What was your take on what wasgoing on there from the cartels
and how they seemed to have ahold?
Everybody had a fear overgovernment and government

(49:17):
entities.

I met some Mexican officials that were very
desperate to see solution tothe problem and I think their
prosecution could stem the flowof firearms.
To look, you can't stop abathtub from overflowing if
you're not going to turn off thewater, and I know it would
never fix it all, but I mean itwould perhaps have some sort of
the turn effect.
But the Phoenix US Attorney'sOffice isn't the only US
Attorney's Office that's turninga blind eye to straw purchasing

(49:39):
, because they believe it's apaper crime or it's not very
glamorous or the person mightnot go to jail.
But if they're not convicted orpunished, then they're going to
continue to buy guns and supplythe cartels.
It was also an eye-openerbecause I met some folks down
there that I have deep, deeprespect for, because they were
honest and they didn't know ifthey were going to get shot by
the bad guy who they were goingafter or the dirty cop behind

(50:02):
them.
Because, I mean, I was told bysomeone who I grew to know
pretty well, who was in CISEN,which is their internal
intelligence agency down inMexico.
They get polygraphed, they'revetted, so those folks are
pretty straight shooters and hewas saying Pete, don't trust
local law enforcement or evenstate law enforcement down here,
because basically, whateverarea you're in, you can rest
assured that they are theuniformed enforcement arm of the

(50:22):
respective cartel that controlsthat area.
So I mean it was reallydifficult to fathom what's going
on down there.
And look, it's worse.
I mean I remember seeingNational Drug Intelligence
center bulletins of bodies hungfrom bridges.
I remember seeing one thephotographs were grisly of
bodies skinned alive well,presumably alive Bodies skinned
hung in a public shower.
I believe it was in Sinaloa.
You know, I'm assuming theywere alive when they were

(50:42):
skinned.
I mean, so the stuff isbarbaric that I was seeing,
Perhaps more barbaric than thestuff that you were seeing
coming out of the Middle Eastback then.

No, you're absolutely right, and of course,
as a DEA agent, it was verydifficult for me to go down
there or for our people to godown there, even most recently,
where, in essence, they weretrying to cut off their
diplomatic status for DEA,because DEA like ATF, I presume
is actually going after peopleand the politicians and they
don't like that, they don't wantus down there.
So it is a very difficult and atenuous situation on there.

I would say it's worse now, Steve, because I
follow the border.
It's something I was passionateabout being down there because
I know those people in Mexicoand I love.
Mexico is a beautiful country,a lot of beautiful people down
there, very warm people.
They're in a bad place rightnow, but I would argue that the
cartels are stronger and moreviolent now than they were when
I worked the border from 2007 to2012.

And it's interesting because it seems
like the cartels certainly movedup from Colombia, where they
started, into Mexico, gettingcloser, and now they're
controlling the border in anynumber of ways, including
trafficking people, getting themacross the border.
So it's a very difficultsituation.
Well, Pete Forcelli, thank you,thank you.
Thank you for everything.
I look forward to success withyour book and I would like to

(51:49):
reserve the right to chat withyou again, because there's so
much I'd be honored, I'd behonored to come back.
That's great.
So that's another episode inthe books.
This is Steve Morreale.
You're listening to The CopDocPodcast and we've had the
pleasure, the honor, to talk toPete Forcelli, who has written
The Deadly Path.
So look for it, and I'm sureyou can find it on Amazon and in
many other bookstores.
Thanks so much.

Thanks for listening to The CopDoc Podcast
with Dr.
Steve Morreale.
Steve is a retired lawenforcement practitioner and
manager, turned academic andscholar from Worcester State
University.
Please tune into The CopDocPodcast for regular episodes of
interviews with thought leadersin policing.

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