Complex-PTSD: the "Big T" and "Little t" Of It All (with Ally Hoffman Scott, LPC)

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
Hi there, and welcome to the couch next door,
where a happy hour meets atherapy session.
I'm your host, Candace Fraser, alicensed professional counselor.
Each week, I'm honored to have afriend come sit on my couch and
we'll dive into an area ofmental health that is impacting
their world.
We'll definitely laugh, probablycry, and maybe go on a rant or

(00:39):
two, because we are all humansfull of emotions.
Come hang out with us.

(01:00):
In today's powerfulconversation, I'm joined by my
new friend and just a doll of ahuman from Safe Space Healing
Collective, Allie Hoffman-Scott.
Together we dive deep into thelayered world of complex PTSD,
also known as CPTSD, and explorehow it shapes our emotional
responses.
Allie Hoffman-Scott is an LPC,trauma-informed practitioner,

(01:25):
and founder of Safe SpaceHealing Collective LLC.
She holds a master's degree incounseling and has advanced
training in somatic therapy,parts work, and mind-body
integration.
Ali blends evidence-basedmodalities with holistic
practices to helphigh-functioning individuals
heal from past trauma andreconnect with their most

(01:46):
authentic selves.
With a grounded presence anddeep intuition, she creates a
space where healing, clarity,and alignment can unfold.
In this conversation, Allie andI unpack the difference between
big T and little T traumas andwhy understanding that
distinction matters.
Allie brings not just clinicalinsight but personal experience

(02:06):
to the table, sharing her ownjourney with CPTSD and the vital
role that validation,authenticity, and safe
relationships play in healing.
We also tackle the oftenoverlooked topics of
misdiagnosis, the importance ofindependent thinking and mental
health, and how therapeutic workisn't one size fits all.
From the parts of self to thepower of perspective, this

(02:28):
episode is full of tools andinsights that remind us healing
is possible and deeply personal.
And don't sleep on the somaticwork.
Learning to listen to yourbody's cues can completely
change how you show up foryourself and others, building
agency, resilience, andself-trust.
If you're on a healing journeyor walking with someone who is,

(02:51):
this episode is for you.
All right, y'all.
Here's my conversation withAllie Hoffman Scott.
I have Allie Hoffman Scott.
That's a new addition to thename.
She's got married on the couchnext door today.
Thanks so much, Allie, forjoining me.
I'm I'm looking forward to thisconversation.

(03:13):
I think I'm gonna learn a lot.
So I'm very excited for you tobe here today.

SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to chat.
I've nerd out on all thingsmental health, but it's also
just nice to talk to somebodylike-minded.
So I hope we can get into allkinds of nitty-gritty good stuff
and maybe even some giggles, youknow?

SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
Yes, absolutely.
We will definitely be laughing.
And we are joined by her twofriends, um, Theo and Apollo.
They are they're joining us inour chat session today.
Um, so Ellie, tell us a littlebit more about you and if you
want to talk about, you know,your animals.
I'm always up for a good animalchat too.

SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Absolutely.
I'm a dog and duck mom, so Ifeel like that's kind of how I
identify myself right now.
So I got again, Apollo, Theo,both of them are German Shepherd
mixes, and then I've got mythree ducks, which I'll kind of
like talk about in a little bit.
But let me introduce myselffirst.
I'm Alice Moffman from it'sstill weird for me to say the
last, the extra last name, also.
Um, but yeah, so I've beenpracticing for a little over

(04:12):
five years.
That does include my studentinternship and everything, but I
focus heavily on clinical mentalhealth counseling with those who
have experienced trauma and morespecifically complex PTSD.
So smaller, um, and when I saysmaller, I want to be careful
about that, but lots oftraumatic events through a
smaller period of time, rather,um, that can kind of help you

(04:33):
build a personality type in away.
So I'm sure we'll get into itmore, but that's kind of my
specialty.
And anytime you are kind of inan awkward stage of life or
don't really know where to turn,those are my types of people.
So I hope that gives you alittle intro on kind of the
types of people I work with andwhat I do.

SPEAKER_00 (04:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, was there like was there apart in, you know, whether it
was your education or even yourinternship where that either
became a passion for you or youjust sort of like fell into
maybe your focus being on PTSDor specifically complex PTSD?
How did you fall into that?

SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
So I would consider myself a product and a provider
of therapy.
The reason why I do this work isbecause I had to do it myself.
So it's not just going to workfor me, it's not just a job.
I have a personal investment init too.
So I was in and out ofcounseling since I was about
nine years old.
Um, I like to say that I've beenon both sides of the clipboard
for those who kind of get thatvibe or can get that visual.

(05:32):
Um, I think that initially Ididn't think that I was gonna be
a therapist at all.
I like to connect people, butthat's not how I saw myself
doing it.
But it throughout my likecollege career and trying out
different jobs, differentthings, I found myself, I was
like, hmm, the way I need toconnect with people and the way
I need to connect others is inthis very vulnerable space.

(05:53):
So not only from personalinterest, but also, hey, I think
I can serve a purpose here.

SPEAKER_00 (05:57):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, it's it's funny that youlike I feel like I kind of fell
into therapy um also on bothsides of the the clipboard, but
like didn't, you know, I'm a mmillennial therapy.
Was not something that my momput me in.
I think if it had been more oflike a mainstream thing at that
time, I probably should havewould have been a therapy.

(06:21):
But it's just interesting tothink back like what my life
looked like and how you knowthis career sort of found me,
and I fell in love with it andcan't imagine doing something
else, right?

SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
I feel the exact same way.
And I think that it wasinteresting going through
school, a lot of my peers orlike my people in my personal
life are like Ali, you are youreally gonna have people pay to
talk to you?
And I said, Well, that's reallyoversimplifying the situation,
but yeah, I'm a talker, I'm goodat that, but more so in guiding
someone, it's not me justtalking at anybody, it's talking
with and to and working with andfor even.

(06:55):
So I always think that's kind ofa giggle point, but I feel like
honestly, our personalities arejust kind of made for this.

SPEAKER_00 (07:01):
Yeah, oh yeah, yeah.
It's yeah, for sure.
And I think you have to have acertain personality to do this
work as well.
I mean, but that's probably awhole other conversation.
All right, well, okay.
So you talked about your dogs.
Tell us about your gut yourducks.
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (07:19):
Okay, they are a new addition to the family.
So I'll give you a long storyshort, we bought a house, had a
wedding, got a new puppy, whichis our newest edition, Apollo,
got some ducks and just all thethings, started my business all
within a year.
A little crazy, but the ducksare the newest family members.
They got here two, three monthsago.
And the reason that I got themis because I'm a like avid

(07:40):
gardener, and between them andchickens, I do want their eggs
for sure, but also they'rereally good for the garden and
they're easy to take care of.
Here in Texas, it's hot, hot, sothey handle heat and handle cold
pretty well.
But we have Luna, Willow, andthen Indie.
So they're all different breedsand okay, different colors.

SPEAKER_00 (07:59):
Okay, I'm not a garden person.
How are ducks good for yourgarden?

SPEAKER_01 (08:04):
Better than chickens because chickens will actually
tear up your soil and they'llkind of tear up your plants.
But the ducks themselves, firstof all, okay, circle of life,
but they fertilize really wellwith their them going to the
bathroom kind of thing.
Yeah.
But they also will eat likeslugs and snails, which happen
to be the biggest predators inmy garden currently.
So chickens don't eat snails andslugs.

(08:25):
That would be the biggestdifference as far as like
foraging is concerned.
But again, they're a lot lesshard on your plants, so their
beaks don't poke so much in aweird way.
Okay, okay.
Love it.
I have a lot of research,Candace.
A lot of research because I waslike, huh, I don't know what
we're doing here.

SPEAKER_00 (08:45):
Yeah, I'm I mean, I again not a garden person.
So I am see, I told y'all I wasgonna learn something.
I'm already learning something.
I'm learning how ducks are goodfor your garden.
I won't probably ever have agarden, but in a trivia, if
somebody says, What do you needin a in a garden with slugs?
You need ducks, not chickens.

SPEAKER_01 (09:01):
And chickens are good too, but I think that
they're just a little bit morelike difficult to care for in
the grand scheme of things.
So ducks, they play in the waterand stuff, and it's stinking
cute.
So I think they're a little moreinteractive and fun to watch.

SPEAKER_00 (09:14):
Okay.
So do you live like out?

SPEAKER_01 (09:16):
Do you have like where do you like do you have
property or we live on about ahalf acre, and most of the lot
is land rather than the house.
We kind of did that on purpose.
My husband and I starting ourfamily.
We both grew up in uh kind oflike spaced-out homes.
I grew up in a two-story home,kids' domain was upstairs,
parents' domain was downstairs.
But as we're building a family,I really wanted everybody to

(09:38):
kind of congregate in a centrallocation, living room, kitchen
kind of thing.
So um, with that being said, weuse the half acre.
I've got the garden.
It's like a baby homestead,let's call it that.

SPEAKER_00 (09:49):
Oh, I love that.
Oh, that sounds adorable.
Ducks, dogs, garden, tiny home.
Love it.
It's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Just cutesy tootsy girl in the corner.

SPEAKER_00 (09:58):
Cute.
Okay, so you own Safe SpaceHealing Collective.

SPEAKER_01 (10:03):
Yes, ma'am, and I didn't lead in with that with my
bio, did I?
That's hilarious.
I know.

SPEAKER_00 (10:07):
Well, that's I mean, I'm but I'm the host, so that's
my job.
So tell us a little bit aboutthat little baby of yours that
you created.

SPEAKER_01 (10:16):
Absolutely.
So Safe Space itself is more ofa growth concept for a wellness
center that I'd really like tobuild it um throughout the
years.
Right now, obviously, I've onlygot me and my intern right now.
So she's actually starting hergrad school in the fall.
We're so excited for her.
Um, but yeah, so with SafeSpace, my idea is that we want
to do a whole mind, body, spirittype of approach to healing.

(10:38):
Not everybody's into talktherapy.
So, what I want to do is offersome different modalities that
are more approachable for peoplewho may not be interested in the
talk therapy side of things.
So maybe more liketrauma-informed yoga,
acupuncture, things like that,where it's just kind of like a
dip your toe in the water, tryto see if you like it, but it's
still a build-your own adventurekind of concept, which is how I

(10:58):
run my therapy room.
So, right now the focus isbuilding my clientele, making
sure that the quality of thebusiness is absolutely top tier
and just serving my clients witheverything they need.
Um, but yeah, so again, rightnow it's just me and my intern,
but I work about three days aweek seeing clients anywhere
from 14 to 45, kind of.

SPEAKER_00 (11:18):
Oh wow, nice, nice.
I love that.
I well, I love the idea of likethat holistic, like whole self.
Um, because like you said, talktherapy is not for everybody.
And I tell people that, like,and I think people sometimes are
shocked, well, yeah, that's whatyou do.
Why would you say that?
Be because it's true.

SPEAKER_01 (11:36):
It's our job to meet people where they're at.
So if I'm gonna sit here and tryto put you in a box, I'm already
doing my job ineffectively.

SPEAKER_00 (11:42):
Totally.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely.
I love that.
I love that idea.
I'm excited to see that growbecause I think more places like
that and people like you thathave that vision and have that
passion are so needed because itis, it is about meeting people
where they are, and you know, Ithink that's priority.

SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
And there's a lot of like-minded people around here
too.
So I think it's just aboutleveraging those connections and
really seeing how we can build acommunity within this larger
like wellness space and kind ofdrippingslash like the hill
country.

SPEAKER_00 (12:11):
Yeah, yeah.
Love it, love it.
Okay, all right, Allie.
What is your rant for us today?

SPEAKER_01 (12:17):
I think I'd have to rant about groupthink, it's the
vein of my existence currently.
Oh.

SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
Tell me.
I think I'm so excited.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
The independent thinkers, we need more of them.
I like to give this as anexample, and it's such a silly
little story, but um, just togive everybody kind of a preface
of what groupthink can be.
I went to the river last yearfor my mom's birthday.
Ironically enough, her birthdayis coming up this weekend, so it
really was exactly a year ago.
But we were walking down to theriver trying to find our little
spot that we had secured, andall of a sudden everybody's kind

(12:50):
of in a in a fit about like, ohmy gosh, we can't find this
table.
Where's designated like tablefive?
I don't remember what it was,but um, none of us could find
it.
And so everybody was kind ofsitting there.
We had people who were alreadyat their tables kind of guiding
us, or they're like, just takethat one, it's fine, like
nobody's there.
Okay, well, and I'm sittingthere, I was like, wait, but we
have reservations, so I'm tendto be a bit of a rule follower.

(13:11):
I was like, wait a second, letme just explore a little
further.
Everyone else in our group kindof just stuck there and was
listening to these people, like,well, Allie, no, no, no, no,
let's just go to this table.
And I go, guys, just wait asecond, let's see what we can
do.
So I walk over to the side and Ifind the stinking table.
And all I could think to myselfwas, oh my goodness, had we kept
listening and going along justto get along, we would have
ended up like clashing with thepeople who ended up walking down

(13:33):
to that table that wasrecommended to us.
So silly example, but it's justlike a unique thinker starting
to go the other direction.
I'm not even trying to toot myown ego here either, like myself
on the back, but it's just oneof those things where if you
have an independent thought,it's like when the classroom, or
like if you're in the classroom,they say like raise your hand,

(13:54):
ask the question becausesomebody probably has it also.
We need those courageousindividuals to speak up.

SPEAKER_00 (14:01):
Yes, yes, yes.
Well, because if we I mean, ifwe look at the bigger problem of
groupthink, I mean we couldprobably go on a whole whole
path on that.
Um, I mean, I you know, I thinka lot of problematic cultural
societal things have happened asa result of groupthink.

(14:23):
Yes.
And and we need to listen to theindependent thinkers because I
think sometimes, I'm not gonnasay all the time, but I think a
lot of times those independentthinkers, they're approaching it
in a different way.
And different doesn't meanwrong, right?
It's just different and it'svaluable enough to pay attention
to.
So I mean, yes, maybe that was asilly example, but it's a

(14:44):
perfect articulation of if wejust go along to get along
because everybody's sayingthat's what we do, what kind of
issues could come about?
Like for this, it was just likea clash with the other people
that that was their table.
But what does that look like ona bigger scale?
That's super problematic.

SPEAKER_01 (15:03):
Right.
And I think that some of us areeven a little bit more timid.
So it's kind of interesting.
I've been noticing this patternboth in my clients as well, just
in my personal life.
COVID kind of I don't even wantI'm gonna blame it.
I'm gonna blame it for a second.
I think COVID made us much morescared of each other than maybe
was necessary, and it also hitat a really vulnerable time

(15:24):
where, you know, I think that usas a United States are very
divided and we want that senseof belonging, like every single
human does.
Like it's a necessary thing foreach of us.
But with that, though, there'sall this shame bred.
If you sit land somewhere inbetween and you don't fit in
either of the boxes, and it'slike, does that have to exist?
Like, do we have to be judgingit?
Because those independentthinkers, that's how we have

(15:46):
innovation, that's how we gotthe stink and light bulb was
somebody thinking just a littlebit different, right?
Yes, so it's it's one of thosethings where it's if you have
the independent thought, there'sopportunity there.
That's what I would say aboutit.
And if we start to all bethinking the same thing, well,
we're all just gonna kind of getstuck in this um echo chamber,
for lack of a betterexplanation, where you're just

(16:07):
hearing your same thoughts comeback and forth.
So it doesn't really challengeyou to grow in any way, you
know?

SPEAKER_00 (16:12):
Right.
Well, and I like I like how youdescribe like those those that
maybe don't fit on one side orthe other.
I I very much identify withthat.
And so I think in in the past, Iwould judge myself for that.
Like, well, do I even believe inanything if I'm if I'm like in
the middle?
But what I've been able toreframe that as it's made me way
more curious, right?
Like, because I don'tnecessarily fit over here and I

(16:34):
don't necessarily fit over here,but it makes me ask more
questions.
Um, so that then I can figureout, well, then what is it?
Like maybe I'm not gonna fit ineither side of these, but but
there may be parts of that,right?
And that's okay.
Absolutely.

unknown (16:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
And I think even if you're willing to say, okay, we
can leverage those parts, andit's interesting because I'll
talk about parts in a littlebit.
It's my favorite thing to talkabout when it comes to trauma
work.
But it those you can use it andleverage it as a connection
point.
So I don't have to agree witheverything that I like somebody
is saying or the people that Icome across, but it's more
information for me to be able tomake an informed decision about
my values, my opinions, myapproach, any of those things,

(17:11):
which sounds maybe a littleselfish, but also like we're all
we're all individuals trying tooperate in this world.
So it's okay if you look atthings a little different, and
it's also okay to agree todisagree.
And I think that's whygroupthink is a bit of a
problem, is because we'veforgotten how to do that as a
society, in my opinion.
Um, and it just drives me alittle baddie sometimes.
So I know it's like a frustratedrant, but it's a it's a good

(17:33):
one.

SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
No, that's good.
That's good.
Okay, so a couple things I hear,like to solve that problem.
I know it's not really solvingthe problem, but be be curious,
don't judge.
Yes.
Um, don't feel shame, right?
And don't shame others.
Um it's okay if you don't fit ina box.
Anything else?
What else did I miss?
Like, how else do we fix thisproblem?

SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
Maybe don't superimpose your beliefs on
someone else.
We can teach, but I think comeat it from an education
standpoint and a hey, like justthis is something that like,
have you pondered on this atall?
But it doesn't have to be youhave to believe this or you have
to buy in.
And I think that a lot of timeswhen we're trying to offer
anybody anything, um, it doesn'treally matter the topic, it
could be religion, it could bepolitics, like those are the
heavy hitters that people arereally emotionally fueled by.

(18:14):
But I think it just allows youan opportunity again to um
approach it in a different way.
And even if you don't agree withit, it's it's information.

SPEAKER_00 (18:22):
Yes, yes.
Well, and I I just wrapped up myfriendship season.
And I think the thing that wasso interesting is a lot of these
friends that were very close haddifferences, like religious
differences, politicaldifferences, maybe cultural
differences.
And that was one of the numberone things they said is I love

(18:42):
that we're different.
Like it's this is like one of myfavorite things of our
friendship is that we'redifferent and that allows us to
learn from one another and itmakes me better, right?
And so, I mean, that wasencouraging for me to hear
because like if we just look atthe headlines, that's not what's
being highlighted.
The differences are embraced andand make us better.

(19:03):
It's the opposite.
So yeah, I think that's soright, is yeah, like just we can
complement one another and itnot be conflict, right?
Yes, yes, yeah, so good.
Okay.
All right, you ready to jumpinto our conversation?

SPEAKER_01 (19:17):
I think so.
Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
All right, okay, so Allie, I'm so excited to talk
about specifically complex PTSD.
I think more recently in themental health world, and I think
even mainstream, that topic,those words have been much more
um used, right?
Like, and I think we'reunderstanding not only as mental
health professionals, but uhjust as humans, what that

(19:42):
actually means.
Um, and I know in in the talk oftrauma, uh, there's a lot of
misconceptions.
Um, that word is a big word, um,but there's a lot of nuance to
that.
And so I'm excited for us to beable to talk really a lot about
the nuances that uh make upcomplex PTSD.
So just, you know, in yourexpertise, in the work that you

(20:03):
do, can you just give us maybe adescription or a definition?
What exactly is complex PTSD?

SPEAKER_01 (20:12):
Yeah, so I think a good way to start with it is
just describing PTSD and thenadding on the complexity piece
of it.
So PTSD is often associated withan isolated event, one of those
big traumatic things.
And again, I'm gonna introducesome language here, which is big
T versus little T.
Um, my my my big T back there,my Theo, is making some noise.
So you'll have to forgive himgrowling at the time.

SPEAKER_00 (20:33):
I don't hear yeah.
So if you hear dogs, just knowthat they are just loving this
conversation.
It's like they're snaps.
They are they are loving it.

SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
It is.
Um, but with that being said,let's start with big T versus
little T, and then I'll kind ofdive into further PTSD and then
C PTSD.
So trauma itself is not whathappens, it's how we respond to
whatever the event was, right?
So it's that emotional turmoilthat we go that we might
experience following a bigevent.

(21:02):
Um, big T's are kind of moreclassified as these big
catastrophic events, things thatyou would kind of gawk at and be
like, oh my gosh, that soundsabsolutely terrible.
Granted, it's the individual'sresponsibility to name it,
whether it be big T or little T,because the impact is how again
you're feeling, not the actualigniting event.
So, with that being said, thebig T's are kind of like natural

(21:24):
disasters, thing again, thingsyou would gawk at.
Making sense.

SPEAKER_00 (21:30):
Yes.
So, like when people think whenpeople think of trauma, like
that's probably what they'rethey're gonna think about,
right?

SPEAKER_01 (21:37):
Right, exactly.
Yeah, and it's it's thatknee-jerk reaction is the it's
the pictures that you see andthe kind of the fantastical side
of it that you see in media,things like that.
Whereas some of those smallerteas are maybe more isolated
experiences or uniqueexperiences to an individual
where it may not have botheredeverybody or your, you know,
everybody and their mother oryour neighbor, but it's

(21:58):
something that has stuck withyou.
So I like to offer some exampleswhen it comes to little teas.
Um one of my favorites is alwaysstubbing my toe at an I hop.
I kind of didn't like IHOPanyways, but it was kind of
confirmation bias number one.
But it's one of those thingswhere I just tend to avoid
breakfast houses in generalbecause it's something that I

(22:20):
have a bad association with.
I think that's kind of a sillyexplanation of what I'm trying
to explain here, but it'ssomething that people can relate
to, you know.
Um but another example that Icould offer would also be I have
a like really, really strong umaversion to liquid medication.
And that's because I had alittle bit of a hard time taking

(22:40):
it when I was a kid.
So my parents almost, again,they were trying their best, but
it was a little bit forcefulsometimes.
And so now if I have to takelike NyQuil or Croft syrup or
whatever, I'll kind of justdouble weight it on the
countertop kind of thing.
So little T's can come up asaversions, it can also come up
as a flinch whenever you'regoing past a particular place
that has a memory associated,things like that.

(23:03):
Making sense about the small t'stoo or little ts?

SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
The PTSD.
I said that.
So since we describe little T'sand big T's, PTSD can be
associated with either of thosethings.
We can start to have thosesymptoms that show up.
Um, flashbacks, nightmares, um,sweating, and just having
anxious fits sometimes, maybeeven a panic attack.
We can have any of those thingshappen as a result of having
PTSD.

(23:30):
And again, I think a lot ofpeople often will associate it
with war times.
Um, I think that's kind of wherethe diagnosis came from in the
first place when I was inschool.
That was when it became reallyprevalent in naming it, right?
And so then we have to kind ofroll over to CPTSD, which I
don't know if you're familiarwith this, but it's not actually
a designation and the diagnosticstatistical manual, which is

(23:51):
what we use as LPCs to diagnoseclients.
So in Europe though, CPTSD is avery popular diagnosis and it is
in the ICD 10.
Um, so in their diagnosticstatistical manual.
So it's kind of interesting.
Diagnoses can sometimes to mefeel like horoscopes because

(24:12):
it's kind of like a broadstroke, and you're like, huh, I
think I think that kind of fitsme, but it doesn't always tell
you what to do with it, whateverthe label might be.

SPEAKER_00 (24:20):
Yeah.
Right, right.
Do you have any insight as towhy CPTSD is not in the DSM?

SPEAKER_01 (24:29):
I haven't done a whole heck of a lot of research,
but my best guess would be thefact that CPTSD could also be
labeled PTSD.
But again, the complexity piecemeans that there was um a lot of
events that happened over asmall small is relative because
the problem is it's if you'veexperienced traumatic events
without having healed from thefirst one.

(24:49):
That's really what CPTSD is.
Is if I haven't been able toreconcile all of the symptoms
I'm experiencing from the oneisolated event and then I'm
experiencing another one, itmakes it a lot more complex for
your entire persona, especiallywhen you're going through human
growth and development.
Every human does, and theirspecific milestones were meant
to be meeting at any particularage, right?

(25:11):
And so the problem is, is ifyou're experiencing traumatic
events, really, let's saybetween ages five and seven,
you're probably gonna have aharder time relating to some of
your peers and building thosesocial skills because you were
really focused on just survivingin that moment rather than you
know, living life like maybesomebody more traditionally
would.

SPEAKER_00 (25:31):
Mm-hmm.
So okay, so I want to make surethat I'm I'm understanding and
that the listeners canunderstand.
So if we're really looking atcomplex PTSD, it's would you
like a simplified maybe versionor definition of that is like a
lot of little tease over time.
And we have, and maybe we don'teven recognize that it is a

(25:52):
trauma, and they just build,build, build, build, build.
And now we're starting to havethese full-blown PTSD symptoms
like panic attacks, heightenedanxiety, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_01 (26:04):
Right.
And then in this particularcase, it's harder to track back
because you've had multiplemoments where it could have that
wound could have been created.
So it's harder to address andharder to treat for that reason.
And actually, CPTSD, the taglineis I haven't been loved right.
And so, with that, um, the wayCPTSD will often present is
similar to a mood disorder.

(26:26):
And so it's often misdiagnosedin that way.
Um, again, we don't have adiagnosis here in the United
States, so it's kind of doing adisservice to the individuals
who are experiencing thesesymptoms here.
Um, but I think that's why isbecause there's other labels
that can be utilitous inreaching the same goal.
However, I think being able tolabel something that is truly
authentic to your experience isso, so, so important.

SPEAKER_00 (26:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I imagine, I don'tknow, in your experience working
with this with population ofpeople that identify with that,
like, is it sometimes even hardfor them to know that they went
through trauma?
Because like, like there's it'sjust been so much over time that
is it hard for them to even say,Oh yeah, I I I went through
trauma.

SPEAKER_01 (27:10):
Without a doubt, a lot of times my clients that I
end up uncovering this diagnosiswith would be telling me
throughout our experiencetogether, like, hey, that's not
like that's not a big deal,whatever.
It just minimizing their ownexperience because they were, I
mean, they went into survivalmode from that point.
So it's actually trying toassess the whole person.
And if there, if there's a lotof defenses that come up, it's

(27:33):
almost a persona that's builtoff of survival.
So you see this in people whoare really adaptable to
different social situations, notsomebody who's just
personality-wise is out veryoutgoing, but somebody more who
you're like, I don't know ifthat matches their true
personality that I've seen in aprivate moment, but they're
really, really vibing with thesepeople.
And sometimes that's more of asurvival technique rather than a

(27:55):
personality type itself.
So does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
It well, it doesn't it?
So, like, I mean, it it Iimagine you would have to be
seeing a client for some time toreally even be able to pick up
on that.
I mean, yeah, you they mightcome in presenting as, oh, I
have heightened anxiety, or youknow, I've got, you know, my
moods are all over the place.
And so, you know, the ininclination may be to diagnose

(28:19):
with a mood disorder, right?
But as you start to unpack,like, oh, wait a minute, this is
what your childhood looked like,or this is what this
relationship looked like, itreally starts to paint more of a
picture of trauma, notnecessarily a mood disorder.
This is just their response outof the little T's that have been
happening throughout their life.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (28:39):
A hundred percent.
And I think when we start namingit in that way where we validate
the experience of thatindividual and speak to those
different parts, and I'llexplain what parts are in just a
moment.
But when we speak to thosedifferent parts of self, right,
um, they're able to heal each ofthose individual parts moving
forward and say, okay, well, sonow I am this whole human.
I didn't lose that part ofmyself because I experienced

(29:02):
that hardship at that time.
It's still skills that I canlearn.
So, for example, that five toseven-year-old that I mentioned
a moment ago, they can stilllearn those skills later on, but
it's gonna be something thatfirst and foremost, like stages
of change, we have to haveawareness of what the issue is,
and then we can start creatingchange and action items beyond
it.
So it is a lot of learning aboutmy clients to start and then

(29:25):
saying, Hey, I mean, that seemslike maybe it was a bigger deal
than you know, you playing itoff or kind of laughing it off.
So you want to get into that alittle bit and tell me more?
And then they start to havebigger emotions surrounding
whatever that igniting eventwas, and we can kind of dive in
from there.
So also leveraging kind of amoments of impact timeline.
I typically will do those prettyearly on in um my therapy

(29:45):
sessions with clients to helplike identify the good, the bad,
and the ugly throughout life.

SPEAKER_00 (29:50):
Right, right.
Well, and probably having topoint out like, hey, that maybe
wasn't as okay as like ornormal, normal, you know, um, I
use in quotes, like.
That that maybe you thought itwas, there may be something else
that was at play there and thatmay be contributing to what
you're experiencing now.

SPEAKER_01 (30:07):
Absolutely.
And I think that something thatI always want people to be
thinking about is we have togrieve the things that we've
lost in the same way we have togrieve the things that we never
had.
So if there's things that youwere maybe lacking in your
childhood, um, even emotionalaptitude from your parents or
that gentle, that gentle likeapproach, all of that can have a

(30:28):
huge impact on how we are asadults.
And then if you ever plan tohave kids, I mean, you end up
seeing so many sides of yourselfthat you didn't even know
existed.
Um, and so I really love workingwith parents as well, just
seeing like, oh, wait, this iscoming up for me.
And then I kind of like this ishow it translates for my
parenting skills.
And it's it's a hard experiencefor the individual going through

(30:48):
it because there's grief andgratitude both at the same time.
And I think throughout CPT CPTSDhealing as a whole, there's so
much room for both and feelings.

SPEAKER_00 (30:58):
Oh gosh.
Yes.
I'm really glad you said that.
That makes a lot of sense.
Okay, I want to get into likewhat working with these
individuals looks like and speakspecifically to like some of the
specific treatments that you doin your practice.
But and we and we've kind oftalked a little bit about what
symptoms look like, but can youbecause I imagine there's I
mean, I know there's gonna bepeople listening thinking, oh my

(31:18):
gosh, do I have this?
Right, right.
So what do people I mean, notonly what do people need to be
aware of within themselves, butI think maybe also like an aware
of like the people that theylove, what are certain things
just to know that might might,we're not gonna diagnose people
here on this podcast, but mightallude to potential CPTSDs is

(31:40):
happening here.

SPEAKER_01 (31:42):
Um, I think that a big thing is is the relational
component is taking a look atthe individual's quality of
relationships in their world.
So it doesn't really matter theage, but I would take like as a
support system, I wouldconsider, hey, is this person
receiving all of the bestsupport that they possibly can?
How do their friends show up forthem?
How am I showing up for them?
And seeing, hey, you know, ifthey're having a big reaction in

(32:04):
a moment where they've been letdown, for example, if the crime
doesn't match the punishment, wemight need to remain curious in
that moment.
It's not an indicatorimmediately of, oh my gosh,
that's what that is.
But when we start to notice thatagain, crime is not matching
punishment, meaning reaction isnot matching igniting event,
that's some of the cues that wecan focus on.
Specifically, though, again,focused on relationships.

(32:26):
So it's if people um haveexperienced quite a bit of
betrayal or something like that.
It's hey, how did their supportsystem show up and tend to that
wound?
Did they receive that?
And if you're noticing, hmm,most of the answers to these
questions I'm asking is no, ornot not enough, or not quite, or
the quality wasn't the best,probably something to consider a
little bit more thoroughly.

(32:47):
But again, these are, I mean,these are moments where you
might be experiencing nightterrors similar to playing out
some of those scenarios withyour loved ones or having very
fear-based types of cognitionswhere it's, hey, I might be
losing this individual when it'ssomebody who's just kind of
exiting.
So for example, um, I actuallyhave CPTSD.

(33:08):
This was a diagnosis that Ireceived officially from my
therapist about two and a halfyears ago, but it was something
that I I never felt like mytherapist got it quite right.
I was like, I've beenmisdiagnosed a couple of times.
It didn't like it never reallyfelt like it fit for me.
Um, but I was gonna offer anexample here.
So when my friend would leavethe house, is my best friend,

(33:28):
right?
I would have kind of anemotional fit about it.
And I knew internally, I waslike, this is not I'm I'm in my
20s, like that's not areasonable reaction.
And I would talk about itbecause I'm a verbal processor,
but I noticed I was like, whatis this?
What is the deal?
You're not abandoning me.
I know we're still like bestfriends when you walk out my
door, but I have this huge likerelease of emotion when you go.

(33:50):
And so what I I started toexplore with my therapist, and
she was like, Allie, what'sgoing on there?
And it was this huge wound ofabandonment and betrayal that I
experienced from pre previousfriendships throughout middle
school and high school.
And so, I mean, those are someexamples of what can compound to
make the bigger personality,right?
But you can just that as anexample is like that that

(34:11):
reaction doesn't quite match thesituation.

SPEAKER_00 (34:13):
Right.
Right, right.
And so recognizing that withinyourself andor recognizing that
within your loved one, right?
Like that it doesn't quitematch.
And in, I mean, and in when youlook at the bigger picture,
there aren't other maybesymptoms at play that would
allude to a a mood disorder or adifferent diagnosis that it's
kind of isolated in particularmaybe relationships, like what

(34:35):
you're saying.
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
And to that point, I was diagnosed with bipolar
disorder, but I wasn't havingstates of mania.
And there are three differentdiagnoses within bipolar
disorder, but I wasn't reallyfitting in any of them.
I didn't have the chronicdepression in the way that it
explained.
Like I was very much respondingto each of my igniting events or
each of those wounds throughoutmy timeline that um I was even
able to track back.

(34:57):
And so in my work with mytherapist recently, she was
like, Allie, no, you'reresponding to specific things,
and you can even tack back tolike, no, this is why I'm
responding this way, is becauseof that event way back when is
still prevalent in my mind.
So when you're able to do that,you you can make a lot more
sense of your world.
And to be fair, many people havea hard time accessing those

(35:19):
memories because they're softspots, they were wounds, right?

SPEAKER_00 (35:23):
Mm-hmm.
And so yeah, and not evenidentifying it as a trauma in
the first place.

SPEAKER_01 (35:27):
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so when working with atherapist, we can s start to
identify okay, is thattraumatic?
Is that something that I startto define my world with, or is
that something that I start toum change my lens of how I'm
seeing things or how I'mreceiving things?
If that happens, it's somethingto consider maybe exploring
further.

SPEAKER_00 (35:46):
Yeah.
Does it make sense?
Yeah, no, totally, totally makessense.
Um, well, and so I mean, I howmany times, how often are people
being misdiagnosed?
You know, and that's sofrustrating.
I hate that.

SPEAKER_01 (36:00):
I could go on another rant, my love, about the
difference between what the jobis of a counselor slash
therapist versus psychiatristversus psychologist.
I think it's really, reallyimportant that we all
familiarize ourselves with whattheir roles are and what purpose
they serve because yourtherapist is the one who goes
through all the nitty-grittyday-to-day stuff with you.
Whereas a psychiatrist, youprobably need to tell them your

(36:20):
overarching symptoms and then beable to take that again kind of
as let me say it this way.
Maybe therapy is the neosporin,whereas psychiatry can be the
band-aid.
Yeah.

unknown (36:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
Does that make sense?
Absolutely.
Therapy actually heals thewound, whereas psychiatry kind
of helps us on it for a while.

SPEAKER_00 (36:41):
Right.
It helps us to protect the woundso that we can heal it.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:45):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (36:46):
For sure.
I love that.
I love that.
That is that is a greatexplanation because people get
very confused about thosedifferent um roles in mental
health treatment for sure.
I like that.
I may, I may have to use that.
You maybe need to like copyrightthat or something.
That's so good.
I love it.
Um, okay, so those are thesymptoms for people to be aware

(37:07):
of that that that could be atplay.
So um, I know you mentionedtalking about parts, internal
family systems, um, and I knowyou do so.
You tell me where you want to gohere with this.
So when you're working withindividuals with with complex
PTSD, how do you help them?
I know that you do healingintensives, I know that you have

(37:27):
a specific model in which youwork with clients, but tell us
what do you do for them?
How do you help them?

SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
So, as I kind of mentioned earlier, I really like
to start with clients kind offocusing on the whole person.
So, whether that be goingthrough the dimensions of
wellness, so what does yourenvironment look like?
What does your social life looklike and determining your
satisfaction level there?
Um, we can either start kind ofthat way, or I start maybe
moments of timeline or momentsof impact timeline.
And then there's also the thirdcomponent, which could be just

(37:56):
building rapport, because youhave to remember that 75% of the
work that's done in therapy isbased off of a positive
relationship with yourclinician.
If you do not jive with yourtherapist, you are in the wrong
room.
I cannot stress that enough.
Um, and it's not so much aboutlike I have to love you as an
individual, but you have to beable to work together and
collaborate.
That's really where the meat andpotatoes is.

SPEAKER_00 (38:18):
Well, and feel safe, right?
I mean, I think especially whenI mean, not all the time, you
need to feel safe with yourtherapist, but especially if
we're talking about trauma,because there is no way in hell
you're gonna be unpacking thatstuff if you don't know with
this person across from you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:33):
Right.
And I think that's also why whenI plug in the moments of impact
timeline, I want to make surethat we're also focused on some
of the glimmers and the thingsthat went well in our world.
Oh, that's true.
Because we need to be able tohold space for that the
dichotomy, the dichotomies oflife, right?

SPEAKER_00 (38:47):
Yeah, it's both and, like you said.

SPEAKER_01 (38:49):
Yeah, exactly.
And so in doing that though,we're starting to able to
identify, hey, like here's someof the things that could have
been going on that have led youto this point and led you to
seek therapy.
So that's pretty traditional,anyways, though, right?
Like when we bring clients infor talk therapy, we're like,
hey, what brought you here?
Right.
Oftentimes I'm just going acouple steps further back if
people are willing.
And I've had clients who havetold me I don't care to do that.

(39:12):
Also, fine.
That's why therapy is a makeyour own adventure.
Right.
Um, oftentimes we end up havingto look a little bit backwards
and specific experiences,anyways, but we'll start there
to kind of get just the fullpicture.
And so I can really, really,really get to know my client
from how they would tell theirstory, not how the world tells
them that their story is.

(39:33):
Um, so for example, oftentimeslike I'll have clients, I want
to explain what I mean by thatis why.

SPEAKER_00 (39:38):
Yeah, no, I uh good, because I was gonna ask.
So yes, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Um You know, oftentimes we hear a lot of
stories about our childhoodbased off of how other people
experienced us, right?
And so that becomes thenarrative for which we write our
life, right?
Or that we reflect on things.
So for example, um, one of themost of what I hear about when I
was a kiddo, like right when Iwas born, is my colic and that I
wouldn't stop crying for sixmonths straight.

(40:03):
I mean, it's unfortunate thatthat's the first thing on my
parents' mind, but it's also whypeople leave Yelp reviews, is
because if something wasupsetting or disgruntling,
that's when you feel the need totalk about it, kind of thing.
So with that though, that's thenarrative I have is oh my gosh,
I must have been a terriblebaby.
I had colic, I was sick, Icouldn't process lactose, it
wasn't a big deal.

(40:24):
But nonetheless, like it becameI in my mind, I was like, oh, am
I the problem child?
You know, and I was like, oh,okay.
But that's what I mean by otherpeople can start to write these
stories for us.
Um, and again, notice likebecause that was the tone people
are using, I didn't have thewherewithal to be like, okay, as
new parents, that totally makessense.

(40:44):
Like, y'all are sleep deprivedanyways, and now you have a
crying baby that you can'tconsole.
As an adult, I can reconcilethat.
As a kid, I'm like, you didn'tlike me that much.
From the kid brain, it doesn't,it doesn't quite register.
So um, that's kind of what Imeant about other people's
narrative super or kind of likebecoming a part of your own.

(41:04):
So in going and tracking throughsome of these memories, we get
to build confidence in ourselvesand our own narrative.
So it's almost using a littlebit of narrative therapy to
inform the bigger picture of whoyou are as a person and who you
want to become.

SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
Yeah, it does.
And I like the like almostteaching clients how to not
invest so much in how otherpeople see them.
Because that, oh again, we couldit could that could be a whole
other podcast episode, right?
Like when other people tell uswho we are, that becomes so
confusing because that'sdepending on dependent on their

(41:39):
experience of us.
And they may have a differentlike person A is gonna have a
different experience with methan person B.
And so then who am I?
Like then that becomes soconfusing for us as humans.
So yeah, we have to know who weare.
But if we've constantly beentold certain things from other
people, that's who we think weare, and that's who our identity
is, and that's where we hold ourvalue, and that may actually not

(42:01):
be true and authentic to us,right?

SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
And I think that this allows everybody's
authenticity to shine throughbecause they're getting to build
trust in their own experience,and so even if people flub it
up, right?
Like, I don't know, we're notall storytellers.
You get what I'm saying?
Like, not everybody is adept tothat skill, and that's totally
fine.
But again, being able to recountyour own experience from your
own perspective is so importantin building trust with yourself

(42:27):
too.
Because even if you're like,well, am I remembering that
correctly?
If that's how you're rememberingit, that's your story.
You hear me?
Right.
And I mean, I'm not sitting heresaying we need to agree with
everything.
Like, if you see somethingthat's like, okay, that math
doesn't math quite correctly, wecan explore that further.
But that's why perspectivetaking is so important, even in
couples' work, just in therapyin general, is like, okay, so

(42:48):
how do you think that that thisperson was experiencing it?
And how are you experiencing it?
And it allows for that locus ofcontrol shift, which is probably
the biggest piece of work whenit comes to CPTSD, is viewing
the world more as here's what'shappening and here's what I'm
gonna do about it, rather thanthe world is attacking me.
What am I?
This is drowning me.
It gives you more of a sense ofagency and control over your

(43:11):
outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 (43:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's really good.
Which, you know, when I thinkabout somebody that's gone
through a lot of little T's, alot of traumas, they don't feel
like they have that sense ofcontrol over that.
It just feels like all thesethings happened to me.
Especially, I think, especiallywhen they learn that that's
their diagnosis and they want todo something about it.
It's like, well, that feelsreally overwhelming because how

(43:32):
far back do I have to go andwhat does that mean for me?
And like, that's probably feelslike a lot.

SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
I could imagine it feels like a lot.
I also know it feels like a lotbecause I had to do the work
too, you know what I mean?
So yeah, it's hard becauseyou're trying to validate your
own experience, you're alsostill kind of consoling yourself
throughout, and that's thatmodality.
So you mentioned that I have aspecial modality that I work
with, and it's comprehensiveresource model.
So it's a neurofeedback um typeof modality where we're focused

(43:58):
on tending to each of the woundsand identifying parts.
So I'm gonna go into that just alittle bit.
I said I would mention whatparts are.
Um, so when I mentioned themoments of impact timeline, I
mentioned also human growth anddevelopment.
These two things are going to gohand in hand.
If we experience a big event,whether that be a little T or a

(44:19):
big T, it can actually stunt usa little bit growth and
development wise at that age orin that cognition level.
Right.
So what happens is that's wherea part might have been created.
So there's a wound at that age.
And what happens is, is itdoesn't mean that you can't keep
growing.
I mean, obviously we all most ofus turn into full-fledged

(44:42):
adults, right?
But it does mean that maybe thethe emotional maturity that you
were meant to develop at thatage didn't quite land correctly.
So we're not practicing theemotional maturity in the now.

SPEAKER_00 (44:54):
Yeah.
There may be some stuntingthat's happening when that
trauma happens, right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:59):
Exactly.
And so it's not, no, you're notstuck at age seven, but the way
that you think about thingsmight be more towards something
that's a little bit moreimmature rather than the adult
self that you're familiar with,right?
So what that means is they're,you know, at each of these
different various points, youcan have a different part of
self that's created.
And a very fantastical versionof this, if you've ever seen the

(45:21):
movie Split, that's adisassociative identity dis
diagnosis.
That is a very extreme versionof parts where these personas
truly kind of come to light.
Um you seen that movie, so thatway I'm I haven't seen that
movie.

SPEAKER_00 (45:36):
I mean, I I understand the concept, but
yeah, I'll I'll link it in theshow notes.
Maybe I should watch it.

SPEAKER_01 (45:42):
It's very fantastical, don't get me wrong,
because the guy turns into kindof like a soup superhuman in a
way.
And with DID, you like with thedifferent personas, you can kind
of change your chemical makeup,but that's that's going down a
different rabbit hole orsomething we don't we don't need
to discuss.
Yeah.
But if you're thinking aboutlike how do parts exist in this

(46:02):
movie, there is a younger partof this guy, and his name is
Hedwig, and you can tell when hegoes into that part because he's
very childlike and cutesy, andoh my goodness, his voice
changes and all these things.
So in the day today, those withCPTSD, we're not experiencing
those types of shifts.
But what might happen is, okay,so I get into maybe I'll use

(46:24):
myself as an example again.
Um, maybe I get into an argumentwith my mom, right?
I know I'm a grown adult, I knowI can handle my stuff, I've used
all my tools, I know what I'mdoing.
If something touches on a softspot from when we were about
work, when I was about 15, kindof in my most angry part of
self, ooh, I can feel it.

(46:44):
And I feel that wrath come up.
And I'm like, wait, wait, wait,that doesn't belong to the adult
self.
That doesn't belong to thissituation.
That was something that camefrom back when, right?
Yeah, yeah.
It's a weird bodily sensation,but if your brain can catch it
and you breathe for a moment,you're like, oh, okay, I don't
need to react to that.
I can respond in this moment,not be reactive.

(47:04):
And again, that empowering senseof locus of control shift.
I can do this instead of, oh mygosh, why did you make me react
that way?
Why did you provoke me in thisway?
Maybe the person did, but we allhave agency over our reactions.
So it's being able to say, oh,that's still valid.
That wasn't just an unreasonablereaction.

SPEAKER_00 (47:25):
Right.
And I know where it came from.
And and I know reacting out ofmy 15-year-old self, that is
survival, right?
I mean, that was what you weredoing as a 15-year-old, and you
don't need you're not insurvival mode as an adult self.

unknown (47:42):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (47:42):
But it's real, I mean, there's so much there,
like that the awareness, andthat's why it's so important to
work with a therapist and to beeducated on what that looks
like.
So I remember there have beentimes I've mentioned parts to
clients, and they will like someof them will like just latch
onto it.
And then some are like, wait,but is that like multiple
personalities?
I'm like, okay, I get why youwould think that, but no, this

(48:06):
is it, so it can be really, itcan be really hard sometimes for
people to understand it.
But it if you if it makes senseto you, it's so helpful.

SPEAKER_01 (48:14):
Right.
And the disassociative identity,I think that if I were to call
something out that's a telltalesign, you lose time.
You don't remember what happensif you are in those different
parts.
And this is very different whereyou can feel a little
dissociated when triggered, butyou're not going to entirely
lose time or track of what wasgoing on.

SPEAKER_00 (48:34):
Right.
Yes, yeah.
Okay, yeah.
You're still aware, you're stillyou're still in the moment.
You still are are experiencingwhat's right in front of you.
It's not completely disconnectedfrom reality.

SPEAKER_01 (48:46):
Exactly.
And I think that's a largemisconception, or anyways, like
a large distinct likedistinction between the two.

SPEAKER_00 (48:54):
Yes, yeah.
No, that's good.
That's good that you includedthat.
Okay.
So in your comprehensiveresource model, you work a lot
with parts with clients.

SPEAKER_01 (49:02):
Yes.
So comprehensive resource modelreally does resource each of
your parts.
So for example, I keep speakingabout this 15-year-old part of
self in the work with CRM.
It's a lot of, and by the way, Idid say we're resourcing each
part, but more than likely it'sthe client resourcing
themselves.
And again, that's reinforcingthat same locus of control shift
in the grand scheme of it all.

(49:23):
So what we'll do is we'll kindof activate this part in a very,
very safe way.
So what CRM allows us to do isreprocess without
re-traumatizing orre-experiencing.
So it's a bit like EMDR in thatregard, where you go through the
event, but you are like withEMDR, you're using the tappers
to kind of keep your body safeand sound.
Um dare I tap into sympatheticversus parasympathetic nervous

(49:47):
system in this moment.

SPEAKER_00 (49:48):
Yeah, do it.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (49:50):
Okay.
So I've been explaining this alot this week.
I think it's helpful, right?
So um I know I'm kind ofpivoting us, but this will this
will help provide some contextfor everybody.
Um, you know that nerve or thatvein in people's people's
forehead that kind of runs allthe way down their face.
That's your vagus nerve.
And in polyvagal theory, thatvagus nerve runs all the way

(50:11):
down your body.
And we can leverage that nervein order to get us from our
sympathetic nervous system intoour parasympathetic nervous
system.
And I'm gonna explain what eachof those are, but one is a
stress response and one is moreof your relaxation response to
whatever igniting event you'reexperiencing.
So the sympathetic nervoussystem is your fight, flight,
freeze, appease, all of thosedifferent things where like S

(50:34):
sympathetic think stressed,right?
Yeah.
And then parasympathetic, I wantyou thinking more relaxed, more
like a somebody who's maybeparalyzed, for example.
Maybe not the best way toremember that, but it's helpful,
mnemonic, nonetheless.
Yeah, yeah.
But if we can get over to thatparasympathetic side, that means
that we can probably handle alot more because we are in a
relaxed state.

(50:55):
Um, something to think about,just assessing your body, doing
a little body scan.
If you close your eyes, scanningtip to toes.
If you feel any tensionanywhere, that can be something
that shows you, hey, I might bemore in my sympathetic nervous
system rather thanparasympathetic nervous system.
So just something to kind of tryand practical skill.
But the reason that I'mmentioning either of those two

(51:17):
things is we can get our clientsin this sympathetic or in their
parasympathetic nervous systemwhile experiencing the state of
stress.
So it becomes a new um, newconnection point for this
individual.
It's no longer, oh my gosh, Ifeel so out of control.
It's hey, I have the power toresource myself with XYZ tool to

(51:37):
tackle said problem or to tacklethese feelings or to help like
resolve that within me.
Is that making sense so far?

SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
Yes, right.
So so if there's that trigger,they feel the ability to tap
into their parasympatheticnervous system so that they can
relax, get calm in their bodyand feel, like you said, that
locus of control that they don'thave to react, they can just
respond.

SPEAKER_01 (52:00):
Right, because in this type of work, you are much
more working in your mind's eye.
And the whole point is to keepyou in that parasympathetic
state and to teach you how tohow to read your body cues to
say, oh my gosh, that's what'shappening.
And then again, taking that timeto do the breath work, do the
resourcing, using that tool tosay, okay, I can regulate

(52:22):
through this.
And it's allowing your body andyour nervous system to remember,
hey, that might have been astressful moment.
Here's how we can tend to it.
So again, it's building trustwith that part of self that did
not have that information at thetime.

SPEAKER_00 (52:37):
Yes.
Well, okay, so let me ask youthis how how important is uh is
it for us to trust all of thedifferent parts of ourselves?
So, like that 15-year-old selfthat is reacting, that is
feeling something, how importantis it for us to trust her
because she's telling ussomething?

SPEAKER_01 (52:56):
And absolutely imperative, in my opinion.
I think that if any part of selfis trying to share any type of
message, for example, that meansthat something's bothering us
and festering in oursubconscious.
So it kind of has to beaddressed.
Um there's a chance, like if so,let me say this, for example, if
I ignored that anger, if Iignored that part of self, it's

(53:18):
reinforcing that uh that samefeeling that we're feeling,
anyways, which is you don'tmatter, what you're experiencing
is not important, any of thatstuff.
So if I ignore it, then I'm alsobeing my own worst enemy,
betraying myself in that momentwhen that part comes up.
Does this make sense?

SPEAKER_00 (53:34):
Yes, yes, right.
So we have to listen to thatbecause that's part of the
healing process.

SPEAKER_01 (53:40):
Yes, and it builds the authentic human, right?
So we are a product, like we area collection of our experiences,
right?
But it's also our lens for whichwe see the world can either be
maybe positive or negative basedon those experiences.
And if we can make new umassociations with it, or at
least the fact, like, hey, thatwas a bad experience, but you
can still have opportunity toheal and move forward.

(54:02):
Again, it's that reminder of,hey, things might have been bad
in that moment, but we havebigger things to hope for, and
it you do recover.
It's almost being able to tellyour younger self everything
that they didn't know.
That like, oh my gosh, hey, Iown my own business now.
Can you believe that?
And it's like my 15-year-oldself would be like, What?
I didn't even think I was gonnamake it out of this place, you

(54:22):
know what I mean?
Um make it to whatever age orwhatever, what have you?
So it's again allowing you towrite your own story and
building trust with yourself andsaying, okay, so yes, that that
reaction or that that responseis valid, but it doesn't serve
me as a whole human now as ahealthy individual.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (54:42):
Yeah, no, it does.
It does.
So tell us about your healingintensives.
What does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 (54:48):
So um, I mentioned those moments of impact
timelines.
Sometimes they take a little bitlonger.
So doing a 90-minute session canbe helpful in those moments.
Also, if we have a part thatcame up and they're experiencing
large reactions and they're kindof activated, we can use those
sessions to really like pack apunch in a good way, gentle way,
gentle punch.
Yes.
Um but we can pack a punch andtrying to make sure that that

(55:10):
part feels well resourced andthat they feel seen and heard
because oftentimes those wounds,like you have to think about it.
Kiddos don't have the languageto support their experiences,
right?
So even when we're tapping intothose parts of self, it can be
hard to put language to it.
So it needs a lot of time andspace for processing.
Not only that, but again, wedon't want to re-traumatize

(55:31):
anybody.
So allowing them the space toresource throughout.
What I mean by resource istools, it can also be drawing on
spiritual components like yourhigher power, things like that.
Um, so it's just allowing a lotof time and space and
flexibility to work with thoseparts and let any of your
emotions come up because I thinkthat many people can probably
feel this.
We don't make a lot of time forourselves.

(55:52):
And so those 90 minutes trulyjust allow you to drop in, have
somebody hold space for you, andthen be able to come back in a
bit more of a regulated way andthen re-enter the world.
Um but yeah, so those 90 minutesare really, really special.
And I can also do them uh likewalk and talk sessions, things
like that, where it allowspeople to immerse themselves in

(56:13):
an environment that may be morecomfortable for them rather than
a virtual experience or sittingin an office space.

SPEAKER_00 (56:18):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, and I'm just eventhinking, I know it can people
can be very hesitant going intouh processing their trauma,
right?
I mean, first of all, sometimesthey don't even know that that's
really why they're they're hereand may may take some time to
get to that point.
And like you said, evensometimes people will say, I
don't want to talk about that.
It's like, yeah, they're notthey're not ready for that.

(56:40):
So I imagine, you know, I Icould see your role as just
being somebody that, like yousaid, just gently trying to help
them get comfortable first withthe idea of even exploring some
of this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (56:53):
Right, because think about talking about it, but then
trying to drop into your bodyand feeling it and starting to
let yourself where maybe youshut that angry part off for so
long, and it's like, oh, what doI do with this?
It's almost like you have tobuild trust with yourself to
say, hey, I'm allowed to feelthat.
It's a utilitous emotion.
However, I also want to beacting right.
Right.
It's like don't let don't let meget carried away with it.

SPEAKER_00 (57:16):
Yeah, and I feel scared if I let that part of
myself be explored because whatdoes that look like?
I've never really allowed thatpart of myself out, so to speak,
right?
And that can feel really, reallyscary to to kind of open that
can of worms, right?

SPEAKER_01 (57:33):
A hundred percent.
And also, I mean, there's alsoparts of ourselves that we may
shut off for survival, and it'slike, oh, it's just intimidating
to think about even touching thesadness, the anger, the hurt,
whatever it may be.
Even sometimes it's hard to feelthe good feelings just for
whatever that's worth.

SPEAKER_00 (57:51):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (57:51):
Yeah, well, because we still have to feel joy.

SPEAKER_00 (57:54):
Yes, well, yeah, because if we shut off some
emotion, we tend to shut off alot of emotions.
It's so hard to you can't reallycompartmentalize emotions.
You can't fill them to thefullest if you're shutting them
off in some capacity.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Okay, I want to talk a littlebit about authenticity in this
work.
Um, and and thinking back toeven your, you know, you created

(58:15):
Safe Space Healing Collective,like as a whole, sort of hell
self, you know, we need to honorthe whole self.
So, how does authenticity play apart in healing and processing
CPTSD?

SPEAKER_01 (58:29):
Authenticity plays, I mean, it is it's exploring
your truth.
That's what authenticity is, inmy opinion.
It's your truth, it's the truthof who your core self is.
That super sparkle soul piece ofwho you are.
I want to sound superromanticized, um, but it's okay
to romanticize life a littlebit.
Plus, that's kind of the beautyof the experience is the fact
that we get to feel all theseemotions.

(58:50):
So authenticity in my mind,again, adds truth to your own
experience, it builds trust withself, it also allows people to
receive you in a way.
Again, it kind of fights thegroup think.
Let's talk about that again.

SPEAKER_03 (59:02):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (59:03):
Authenticity allows you just to be yourself.
And again, reinforcing the sameidea of if I don't, if I can't
speak my truth, then I'm notever going to be able to honor
that.
Um, so if I never say, Hey, Ilove dogs, well, how is the
world supposed to know that Ilove my dogs and my duckies?

(59:24):
And it's just being able to say,Hey, here's who I am.
And despite whether or not wemay be a good match in whatever
facet that may be, as friends orlike neighbors, whatever the
case may be, this is who I am,and this is how I want to show
up in this world.
And I'm proud of that.
And I think that's the biggestpiece is that pride that comes
with the authenticity.
It's it's being comfortable inyour own skin.

(59:44):
And a lot of us don't start thatway.
There's a lot of outside noisethat comes in, and it's really,
really hard to be ourselves.
I mean, we've all been throughthat awkward middle school stage
and all those variousexperiences in life where maybe
you didn't quite fit in, but IDo you like the little notion or
the little quip and quirk thatsays um read or rejection is a
redirection?

(01:00:06):
I think that's really importantfor all of us to remember.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:09):
Yes, yeah.
Well, and I'm even thinking likeknowing knowing your 15-year-old
self, that that part of you thatis still there, that doesn't
make who you are, right?
Like we are made up of parts.
Um, and and so knowing,honoring, understanding that
allows us to know our truth, tobe authentic, but also

(01:00:31):
understand ourselves as a whole.
Because we are complex people.
Like as a human, we have a lotof complexities, and a lot of
those complexities come fromthose parts.
Um, but I know, I mean, and Isee this with clients so often
they'll identify who they arewith that reactionary self,
right?
That like we're talking aboutthe 15-year-old self.

(01:00:52):
Like, that's who I am.
It's like, no, that's just apart of you.
Like, you are so much more thanthat.
Like, there's so much more toyou that makes up who you are.
But it's so easy, especiallygoing back to what you were
saying, if that's been thenarrative that's been told to
you is you're reactive, you havea bad temper, you're emotional,
right?
Then then you think that's whoyou are, is that 15-year-old

(01:01:12):
part of yourself.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:13):
Absolutely.
Which that spoke straight to myheart because that's a lot of
the feedback that I wouldreceive growing up.
And no, I am a loud personality,don't get me wrong, but that
doesn't mean I'm too much.
I mean, shoot, my husband's oneto say, I'm okay.
He'll keep me.
That's right.
Yeah.
You know, and it's, I mean,you're not, you're not who you
are on your worst day or yourworst moment, whatever the case

(01:01:34):
may be.
You that's a moment in yourlife.
It doesn't have to define you asa whole individual, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:40):
Yes.
Uh, I love that.
I think that like say thatlouder for the people in the
back.
Like, that is so important forpeople.
Like, uh, if anything, if youtake away anything, please
really listen to that partbecause that I mean that plays a
piece in everybody's life.
I think it's so easy for us toidentify ourselves on our worst

(01:02:00):
day.
And that is just, you know,that's that's not what makes us
human.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:05):
Like, that's not very human of you to have a bad
day.
Yes, it is a human experience.
But I also think that's kind ofthe beauty of it, is we're we're
the only being that feels to thedepth and capacity that we do,
other than maybe dolphins andwhales.
We'll leave them to the side fora moment.
But it's that's the beauty ofthe experience of being a human,

(01:02:26):
you know?
And I like to I like the notionthat we're spiritual beings
having a human experience.
So we are all come from this,like I'm gonna sound super
hippie-woo-woo, but we all comefrom this place of like really
love.
That's where we were born bredfrom plenty of times.
Um and then it turns intowhatever the world happened,
whatever's happening in theworld, but it's reminding
yourself that hey, you as ahuman are worthy just because

(01:02:50):
you are here.
It doesn't matter what anybodyelse thinks, how anybody else
treats you?
You are worthy of all the lovein the world because you are
curious.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:58):
Yes, yes, yeah.
I love that.
Okay.
What would be your encouragementfor somebody that is listening
to all of this?
And maybe they're identifyingwith some of the things that
you're saying.
Maybe they feel like they reallyneed to explore this idea of is
there complex PTSD at play in mylife?
What would you encourage them todo as maybe their first steps or

(01:03:22):
next steps in just understandingthat and exploring that in
healing?

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:26):
Yeah.
I think that just a willingnessto take a look at your own
background, your own history,and how you're showing up in the
spaces and seeing, like taking asmall assessment, saying, Hey,
do I like this part, like do Ilike this version of myself that
I'm presenting in this world?
And if not, what could Ipotentially start to fine-tune
to do a little bit better?
Um, I think that just allowingyourself the like the

(01:03:48):
availability to even take a lookat yourself is something a lot
of us don't do.
So that would be my first placeto start is giving yourself that
pause to truly just turn inwardand say, okay, is it am I proud
of how I'm showing up in theworld right now?
Diagnose this or not.
If the answer is no, it'ssomething to explore and then
you can start to journal alittle bit.
And that if you're not ajournaler, that's more than

(01:04:09):
okay.
Not everybody is.
Do a little video for yourselfor like just do a voice memo,
something that you can just comeback to it, because sometimes
we're in a stream ofconsciousness or whatever,
because I mean, even in thesedialogues, we're talking, we're
vibing, but it'll be nice to beable to circle back and think
back on some of this and listenback on the podcast and be like,
oh, yeah, I really love how shesaid that, whatever the case may

(01:04:31):
be.
Um, or that hit differentbecause of how it landed in that
moment, yeah, for sure.
And so just remaining curiouswith yourself.
And then once you find somethingyou want to learn more about,
maybe start looking into findinga good fit for you if that's
where you want to go, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:45):
Yeah, yeah.
Are there certain things thatyou would encourage people to
look for in a provider, in atherapist, if complex PTSD is
what they want to explore?

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:56):
Yes, I think that finding the clinish a clinician
that focuses specifically ontrauma is absolutely imperative.
Anything neurofeedback isreally, really important as
well.
So with the EMDR type ofmodality, my biggest suggestion
is finding something, somemodality that is not going to
make you re-experience theevents and just making sure that

(01:05:17):
you feel well resourcedthroughout.
CRM is an example, it's not theonly example.
Um, and so it's it's alsoimperative that you get along
with your therapist again.
That I say that just feel safe,yeah.
Yes, safe and heard and seen tofeel comfortable to open up.
Yeah, and talk about thosereally raw parts of life,

(01:05:39):
because I mean whenever you getin, like we say things in
therapy that you never say outloud before, and there's a lot
of shame that comes with that,and it's just being able to be
like, oh, okay, you didn't havea reaction.
That's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:52):
Yes, yes, oh my gosh, yes.
That that's huge right there.
How important is somatic workwhen we're doing this?

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:02):
I think somatic work is important for everybody, even
outside of the trauma component,but even more imperative for
those experiencing traumabecause it lives in your body,
it lives in your nervous system.
Your nervous system is ebbingand flowing and taking in
information throughout theentirety of your life.
And unless we tell it, hey, youdon't have to be that stressed
right now and teach it andremind our nervous system like,

(01:06:25):
hey, there are times wherethat's necessary, but it doesn't
have to be a forever mindset ora forever feeling.
It allows you to flex a littlebit more.
So it also like tapping intothat.
If I have you ever triedmeditation before by any chance,
okay.
Hard to do the first time,right?
Really hard to like get yourbrain to focus on the breath
work.
Yeah.

(01:06:46):
It's flexing that muscle andreally working it so that way we
can tap in fully.
And so, for example, if you justas like take a deep breath in
through your nose and outthrough your mouth.
If it's rather short, probablycould be a little longer.
Your out breath should always beabout twice as long as your
in-breath.
So even just focusing on thatalone can really help to move

(01:07:09):
you from that sympatheticnervous system back to that
parasympathetic nervous system,that more relaxed state.
If you don't know that your bodycan do that, if you don't know
how to make it work in that way,it makes the job a lot harder.
And then it's more likely thatyou will re-experience the
trauma because you don't trustyourself to be able to relax
that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:29):
Oh, yeah.
Well, and I think like speakingto what you said, somatic
somatic work is important in anysort of mental health treatment,
because some of that is justwhat is our body telling us?
Because a lot of times ourbody's telling us something way
before that we recognize what'sactually happening.
And so if we can give space andtime to that work, then we're

(01:07:51):
able to listen and give space toit and maybe, maybe like come to
some conclusions that would helpfurther our treatment in in
certain ways, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:00):
Absolutely.
And also, I mean, you thinkabout it.
You think about people who therunners like if if you've seen
anybody run a marathon, likeevery once in a while, they'll
have that big cathartic moment.
People are like, why are theydoing that?
This is why.
They're allowing themselves torelease their emotion and tap
into those parts of themselves.
It's a very methodical piece ofthat practice.
Yeah.
Um, is it their goal every timewhen they're running?

(01:08:22):
No, but it your body, when youramp it up like that, it it also
wants that release, right?
It's the same thing as a panicattack.
Your body goes up and it needsto decompress, right?
So it's yeah, it's kind ofinteresting.
You can do that, like I said, ina different way, other than just
talk therapy, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:37):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Okay.
Allie, is there anything that wedidn't cover that you wanted to
cover before I ask our lastquestion?

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:43):
I think we covered a lot.
I know it's a lot ofinformation.
I hope it wasn't too confusing,but I think just allowing
yourself again to look inward isreally the biggest deal.
And so even if the labels don'tapply to you, just saying, hey,
this bothers me, and because itbothers me, it freaking matters.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:01):
Yes.
And yeah, and I want to dosomething about it.

unknown (01:09:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:04):
Because I deserve that.
Exactly.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm I'm gonna ask this nextquestion in two parts, and I
didn't prepare you for this, sowe're flying by the seat of our
pants.
Okay, first, I want you to tellus how would somebody that's
that maybe is identifying withthese symptoms of complex PTSD,
how would you encourage them totake care of themselves well?

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:28):
Pause.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:29):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:30):
Slow down because a lot of us in survival mode are
simply flying by the seat of ourpants, as you just said.
When you take pause, you giveyourself space.
And I'm not saying like goturtle mode.
No, I'm saying slow down, likebreathe pace by pace, breath by
breath.
Even if you're driving, letyourself take in your
environment, start to notice thestreet signs, start to notice

(01:09:52):
the things that are passing youby along your way, and just let
yourself take that in.
Acknowledge it.
You don't got to sit there andpause the car, stop entirely.
But it's just saying, hey,that's something I haven't
noticed before.
And you can do that externallyor you can do it internally.
But I think slowing down ingeneral is the biggest, biggest
thing.
And yeah, just adding a littlepause.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:13):
Yes.
Oh, I love that.
Okay.
Now tell us how you're takingcare of yourself well these
days.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:18):
Yeah.
I think for me, my gardening ishuge.
Taking care of others as acaregiver is like we just do it.
I don't know.
But I think that taking care ofsomething that then pours back
into me is always a good thing.
But between that and my skincareregimen and just letting myself
enjoy the little baby homesteadwe have, I think that allowing
myself to live in my quirks andlive in my truth and say, hey,

(01:10:41):
I'm a human who's showing up forother humans too.
That's really how I take care ofmyself is reminding myself of my
own humanity and then being ableto show up for others.
And again, on the authenticity,I always tell my clients, I'm
like, hey, I'm gonna be verymuch casual.
We're not gonna have the whitewalls feel like we're in a
doctor's office, put your tieon, you know?

(01:11:01):
Yeah.
And so I think practicing what Ipreach is probably my best form
of self-care because I gotta dothe work so that way I can be
there for others.
And inherent, like I have totake care of myself in order to
do my job.
So any of the things, but mostspecifically all of the grandma
hobbies, those really, reallykeep my life rich.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:21):
Yes, yes, yeah.
Yeah, well, like it's soimportant, I think, as
therapists, for us to be able topractice who we are in the
therapy room.
Otherwise, the amount of burnoutwould, I mean, I couldn't do
this work if I couldn't bemyself and have like giggles and
laughs and you know, besarcastic sometimes.

(01:11:42):
I don't think I could do thislong term.
I think I would have alreadybeen out if I couldn't be
myself.
So totally agree.
Love that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:49):
Totally agree.
And I think that just yeah, wejust have to practice what we
preach.
And I think that my versions ofself-care kind of step away from
more of the mental health sidebecause I get so much of it in
my work, you know.
So properties are important foreveryone, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:03):
Keep you busy.
Yes, yes, very good.
Uh and it's a good way to takecare of yourself because again,
it reminds us of your ourhumanity.
We're not just what we do or whowe are to somebody else.
Like, this is important to us,and so it's important enough to
do it.
Right.
Yeah, okay.
Well, Allie, thank you so much.
Oh my gosh.
Like, I knew I was gonna learnso much in this conversation.

(01:12:24):
It was so good, it was soinsightful.
A lot of just a lot of nuggetsof information here that I think
is gonna be so helpful forpeople to be able to chew on and
move forward and find the helpthat they need or the help that
maybe their loved one needs.
So thank you so much.
Thanks for coming on and sharingall the things.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:44):
Thank you so much for having me.
I know sometimes it's hard tograsp some of the existential
concepts and stuff, but Iappreciate you holding space for
it and always tapping in with agood question and anything.
So I appreciate you having me.
And yeah, thanks for having thepups too.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:57):
Of course.
They were a pleasure.
They were, they were just, youknow, they they just they were
around.
Yeah, yeah.
Wow, what a powerful and deeplyinsightful conversation with
Allie.
I hope you're walking away witha little more clarity,
compassion, and curiosity aboutyour own healing journey and
maybe a few pages of notes too.

(01:13:19):
I know talking about internalfamily systems and parts work
can feel a little overwhelmingfor some, but this work is so
transformational when it can beintegrated into your healing
journey.
I loved what Allie said abouthow we are not defined by a bad
day.
Gosh.
I don't know about y'all, butthat is something I needed to
hear and be reminded of prettyoften.

(01:13:40):
And what about Allie'sexplanation of therapy as
neosporin and psychiatry as aband-aid?
Y'all, I'm putting that one inmy back pocket for sure.
If this episode resonated withyou, please know you're not
alone.
Complex PTSD, trauma recovery,and reconnecting with your
authentic self is hard work, butit's also sacred work.

(01:14:02):
Whether it's understanding therole of relationships, somatic
healing, or the many parts ofyourself.
Every step forward matters.
A huge thank you to Allie forsharing her story and wisdom
with such honesty.
I told her after we recordedthat she needs to be teaching
this stuff.
She was able to break down suchbroad, complex topics into
nuggets we can actually digestand use.

(01:14:23):
It was remarkable.
And remember, healing doesn'thappen in isolation.
Find your safe spaces, yoursupport systems, and keep
showing up for yourself inwhatever way you can.
I hope this episode encouragesyou to stay grounded, stay
curious, and take gentle care ofyourself and those around you.

(01:14:56):
If you believe you're in need ofprofessional assistance, please
reach out to the medicalcommunity in your area.
The Couch Next Door with CandaceFrasier was created by me,
Candace Fraser, graphics byJason Frasier, music by Josh
Bissell.
You can find the show notes andaffiliate links on
CandaceFrasierLPC.com.
Click on the tab Podcast andyou'll find all podcast-related

(01:15:20):
content there.
I'd love to connect with you onInstagram.
Find me at Candace FraserLPC.
Give the show a rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
This really helps get the showto more listeners in the world,
and I would be so grateful tosee what you all are loving.
Until next time, show kindnessto yourself and those around

(01:15:40):
you.

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