Work Ethos: Rethinking Burnout, Passion, & Team Dynamics (with Marty Munger & Kasey Brennan)

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:17):
Hi there.
Welcome to the Couch Next Door,where a happy hour week therapy
session.
I'm your host, Candace Preacher,a licensed professional
counselor.
Each week, I'm honored to have afriend on my couch, and we'll
dive into an area that's helpfulthat impacting their food.
Definitely laugh, probably cry,and maybe go on a rant or two,

(00:40):
because we are all humans, fullof emotions.
Come take out with us.

(01:09):
Marty Munger, you might beremembered Marty from the Inea
season, and our new friend CaseyBrennan.
They're both Enneagram coachesand co-creators of the upcoming
podcast, Work Intelligently, andco-founders of the company Work
Ethos.
Casey is the chief executiveofficer and lead consultant at
Work Ethos, where she helpsleaders and teams align purpose

(01:33):
with performance so they cangrow sustainably and thrive.
She's also, y'all, an EmmyAward-winning producer
specializing in documentariesthat highlight stories of
transformation and resilience.
Drawing on years of experiencein leadership, storytelling, and
coaching, Casey is passionateabout building cultures of
clarity and collaboration andequipping visionary leaders to

(01:56):
find freedom from burnout andlead with purpose.
We all remember our favoriteEnneagram coach, Marty Munger,
from the Enea Season.
Marty is the chief relationshipofficer and co-founder of Work
Ethos.
Marty draws on her backgroundand self-awareness tools to help
leaders and teams ditchdisconnection, both from

(02:16):
themselves and each other.
Her work centers around creatingcultures of connection, clarity,
and contribution.
In this episode, we explore howunderstanding individual
strengths, values, and evenweaknesses can completely
transform how we show up at workand how we support others.
From recognizing the role ofpassion and career satisfaction

(02:38):
to identifying the root causesof burnout, Marty and Casey
offer insights that are botheye-opening and actionable.
As a therapist, I hear aboutwork burnout constantly.
And work is such a common topicthat is discussed in the therapy
room.
That's why I loved digging intohow self-awareness, especially
around your personal workvalues, can help prevent burnout

(03:01):
before it starts.
We talk about self-care in theworkplace and even share a
practical strategy that you donot want to miss.
We also get into the power ofworkplace assessments,
specifically the assessmentsthat work ethos has created to
pinpoint what energizes you andwhat drains you.
Because when people feel seen atwork, communication improves,

(03:24):
empathy grows, and teams thrive.
So check out the show notes soyou can take their assessments.
They're incredible.
And yes, of course, we could notresist a little Enneagram
detour, but trust me, it ties inbeautifully with our main theme:
building more intentional,human-centered workplaces.
Because when you really knowyour team, you unlock better

(03:47):
communication, greatercollaboration, and a healthier
culture.
Whether you're a leader, ateammate, or someone just trying
to make work feel moremeaningful, this episode is for
you.
And me as a solo business owner,I also found this conversation
so helpful because there'sdefinite environments where I'm
having to work with other peopleand recognizing my strengths and

(04:08):
the things that train me.
All right, y'all.
Here is my conversation withMarty and Casey.

SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
Okay, I am so excited.
We have Marty Munger.
Remember Marty, she was ourEnneagram coach, the podcast
Enneagram coach.
She is back with her friendCasey Brennan, and we are here
to talk about work life andmental health, and it's gonna be
a really good conversation.
So welcome to the couch nextdoor.
Welcome back, Marty.

(04:38):
Welcome, Casey.
I'm so excited to have you on.
Um who wants to start likeintroducing themselves and just
giving a little bit of abackground?
Or Marty, you can give us anupdate on what life has been
like for you the last year and ahalf.

SPEAKER_05 (04:50):
So who wants to start?
I can kind of start and thenCasey, you can go and fill in
whatever I'm missing in our fullexplanation.
But I'm Marty Munger.
I was on here before talking allthings Enneagram.
And funny enough, Casey is alsoan Enneagram coach.
And we have another partner whowas also an Enneagram coach.

(05:14):
So that's kind of how we allcame together and decided to
create our own company.
So that is what Work Ethos is.
And it's crazy because Irealized like my name was my
maiden name when I joined today.
And I was like, oh my gosh, wehaven't talked in a while.

(05:35):
And I was like, wow, we reallyhave been slowly building and
creating this company that isnow work ethos.
And basically it's all aboutteam building and really helping
founders create the team thatthey need.
And so I'll leave it there forthat for now, just because I
know we're gonna deep dive.

(05:56):
But yeah, that's a little bitabout what's kind of happened
since the last time I was here.
Awesome, awesome.

SPEAKER_00 (06:01):
All right, Casey, tell us about you.

SPEAKER_07 (06:03):
Yeah.
So as Marty said, I am also anEnneagram coach.
So that was kind of where thethree of us aligned and work and
just we saw a lot of gaps in theworkplace.
And with specifically withEnneagram, but a lot of
assessments have gaps.
And we really wanted somethingthat filled all of those gaps
and tackled the things that thatwe saw amongst teams where they

(06:27):
had a lot of questions.
They're like, well, okay, if I'mthis, then what is this?
Right.
Like, and so we kind of come inand we're like, okay, here's
here's why, here's why you workthis way, and here's how you're
wired.
So that's how Work E those wasborn.
Um, I've spent the most of mylife as a film producer, which I
still do on the side, but thatis kind of my um my journey in

(06:49):
in documentary filmmakingspecifically.
So I love the story behindanything.
And story is the thing thatdrives me.
And when I look at workplacesaround the world, I feel like
that's also the thing that needsto drive them.
Yeah.
And so this is just another wayand another tool to be able to
tell their story.
Yeah.

unknown (07:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (07:09):
Well, and I I love like what y'all are saying.
I mean, the what I always havesaid I love about the Enneagram,
it does say say tell a completestory of the person.
It's not um one-dimensional.
There's multi-dimensions.
And so y'all, how y'allconnected with the Enneagram is
like just makes a lot of senseon how y'all are looking at work

(07:30):
life, what how to support peoplebetter, how to help them to tell
the whole story of who they arein the workplace.
Because that is just one part ofour lives, is work.
But it is a major part of ourlives, right?
And so it does, it tells a partof the story, but we need to
know all the different layers towho we are.
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (07:50):
And it's wild to me because work can show up so many
different ways for people.
It's sometimes it's the placewhere you spend the most time,
but it's sometimes the most,it's where you're the most
filtered too, you know, like alot of times you can't be right
a hundred percent authentic justbecause there are certain
professional roles or thingsthat you have to be in specific

(08:12):
jobs.
And so for me, it's just Iremember realizing, especially
when I got into the workforce,and like this is the majority of
your day is work.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And if you don't even like enjoyit or fully align with it, like
that is detrimental to yourhealth, no matter what.
Like it doesn't matter how muchmoney you're making, it's gonna

(08:33):
get you one way or another.
And work is one of those messytopics that it's not perfect,
like you could do what you loveand it can still be stressful as
heck.
So yeah, it's just a veryconfusing place sometimes
because you do have to use thefilter.

SPEAKER_03 (08:46):
Well, and and I know, Marty, you and I talked
about this on one of theepisodes you were on, but a lot
of times we don't even know thatuntil we get in the work, right?
Like we can we can go to schooland get training and do all the
things, and then we get it andwe're like, oh, this isn't what
I thought, or or I'm not as goodat this or this part of it that
I thought I would be.

(09:07):
And but then we feel stuckbecause we paid all this money
for the training or theeducation or whatever.
And yeah, and that there's a lotof stress to that.
And I mean, that's something Italk a lot about with clients in
the therapy room is like, youknow, trying to problem solve,
like, how do we make this workif you have to?
Um, so I'm excited that y'allcan kind of bring that expertise

(09:28):
in to give some insight intothat.

SPEAKER_07 (09:31):
So yeah, and one of the things that you just brought
up too, like I think when we areso stuck in that cycle at work,
we come home feeling insecureand inadequate.
And then that filters into ourhome life with our families and
our spouses and just all around.
Like when I see when I see workethos transforming a workplace,

(09:51):
like I don't just see ittransforming a workplace, I see
it transforming a home.
Because when you are able toreally love what you do and love
the people that you do it with,then that come into the home and
you'll just have such a happierattitude.

SPEAKER_03 (10:05):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, okay, so we know Marty.
Casey, tell us a little bit.
Like you have three kids.
I I read that you're you've nowbecome a runner, your new
runner.
Love it.

SPEAKER_07 (10:17):
New runner.

SPEAKER_03 (10:19):
Yes.
Yes.

SPEAKER_07 (10:21):
It's like a love-hate relationship at the
moment.

SPEAKER_03 (10:23):
Total.
What race are you training for?

SPEAKER_07 (10:26):
You said you're training for your first yeah,
half half marathon, yeah.
Um, and it's it's called themermaid half here in Orlando,
Florida.
And so I started in April.
I love it.

SPEAKER_03 (10:39):
I love mermaids, so I need more information about
this.
Okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_07 (10:44):
Yeah, yeah, I'm excited.
I mean, it's been one of thosejourneys where I was like, okay,
let's just see what happens.
And now I'm like, I I typicallygo all in on something when I
decide to go all in on it.
And so now I'm like rotatingthrough running shoes and like
probably gonna become thepresident of a run club soon.
I don't know.
Like all of a sudden it's all inyour whole personality.

(11:08):
My whole personality.
I don't know what's happening.
This is weird, and my hips hurtall the time.
I don't know if it's normal.
It's yeah, it's a learningprocess.

SPEAKER_03 (11:17):
Okay, so what is the a mermaid?
What is the mermaid race?
Tell me, tell me about it.

SPEAKER_07 (11:22):
It's just the name of it.
So the actual like overarchingname is Legends, Legends R.
I don't know, but there's sothere's a marathon, and that's
like the skunk ape marathon, soit's like Bigfoot, skunk ape
marathon.
That's like Florida's okayFlorida's uh Bigfoot.
Okay, and then the half is forwhatever reason called a
mermaid.

SPEAKER_03 (11:41):
Okay, half, okay, yeah.
So so you're in Florida.
You do you live near Orlando?

SPEAKER_07 (11:47):
Yes, I'm right outside of Orlando.

SPEAKER_03 (11:49):
Okay, I'm uh since now you're a runner, and I don't
know how you feel about Disney.
Oh, I love Disney.
Okay, okay.
Of course you gotta do a Disneyrun at some point.

SPEAKER_07 (11:58):
I know everyone's been saying that.

SPEAKER_03 (12:00):
Like okay, I had a goal to do a princess, the
princess run at one point.
Because I just kept seeing like,and I was like, oh, that'd be
fun.
And I I run, so like whatever.
And um I did that, and I waslike, I get it now.
I totally get why people areobsessed with these Disney
races.
It was amazing.
Like, I look so happy in theentire thing because you take

(12:21):
pictures with all of theprincesses, like they're on the
runs.
Oh my gosh, it was amazing.
So I think that should be yournext goal is do a lot of things.

SPEAKER_05 (12:31):
I think I could be sold on a Disney run and I don't
even like running, but if I'mlike motivated by simulation and
things that are coming alongsideme, yeah.
I don't don't you even get inlike I think you can get in
early, like to parks or sit orlike areas, like if it's really
early before crowds and you'rejust in that group running
through it.

SPEAKER_03 (12:51):
Yeah, I mean that the the the day is insane.
Like I think I got up at like 230 in the morning because you
have to like oh my gosh, yeah,because you have to bus over
there, like it's a wholesituation, but everybody is so
happy and everybody's therebecause they love Disney and
they don't care that it's superearly.
And it it was a fantasticexperience.

(13:11):
I did it completely by myself,like I, you know, and then my
husband came and picked me upbecause I we went to Disney with
my family, and that that waspart of the the um the trip was
me running this race, but no,totally worth it.
I didn't I didn't get the hype.
I wanted to do it just becauseit sounded fun, but yeah, I
would totally do it again.

SPEAKER_07 (13:28):
Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm I'm sold.
Did you do the half or the full?

SPEAKER_03 (13:31):
I did the half, I did the uh princess half.

SPEAKER_07 (13:34):
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, I don't think I could dothe full yet.

SPEAKER_03 (13:38):
Yes, she's gonna do a full at some point in her
life.
It's happening.

SPEAKER_07 (13:41):
I'm like an ultra runner by next year.

SPEAKER_03 (13:44):
We'll touch back, we'll touch base and see where
you're at in your mind.
Okay.
Do we want to talk about y'all'spodcast?
Yes.
Okay, absolutely.
So tell me about the podcast.
I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_05 (14:00):
I am because this has been it's been this like
want to do for so long.

SPEAKER_03 (14:06):
But I remember talking to you about it at that
soccer game.
I met you, and you were like,I'm thinking about it, right?
Yes, that was like two yearsago.

SPEAKER_05 (14:15):
Oh my gosh, I forgot about that.
Yeah.
So it really has been like thisburning, like, okay, slow burn,
here we go.
And now it's really greatbecause now that we've brought
in Casey, Casey's had a podcastbefore, so she knows like what
the heck to do.
And so I I'm excited because sowhat one of our main things is

(14:36):
our assessment.
So we've got two assessments.
One is called Work IntelligenceIndex and then Work Style DNA.
And we want the podcast to becalled work intelligently
because yeah, intelligently canmean so many different things,
you know, in so many differentfacets.
And my vision in KC will be ableto fill in as well.
Like it's just gonna be a greatplace to have conversations

(15:00):
with, you know, whether it'sfounders that we're helping and
their experience with whetherit's the assessment, learning
how to lead, learning theirteam, like learning how to
create a team that's really, youknow, inligned personality-wise,
and everyone's in the right seaton the bus.
And so there's gonna be so manystories about how entrepreneurs

(15:23):
struggle to even get to thatpoint.
And we're in that boat.
We've been struggling for a hotminute trying to get this thing
up and going.
And so I think there's just somany topics we can explore that
way, and so it's it's inprogress.
Only a few episodes have beenrecorded, but we're building.
Okay.

SPEAKER_07 (15:41):
Yes, yeah.
And what I love that sets usapart too is that the work
intelligence index, it's we havelike 27 character types.
Like when you think aboutpersonalities, yeah, and you
think about like how you showup, who wouldn't be interested
in that?
Because you know, you haveEnneagram, it has it has nine,
and that's great.
But like we have 27 that wecould go through.

(16:02):
That's 27 episodes right there,right?
Just on those specificcharacters.
So I'm excited to really breakit down and and just tell people
more about what it's about, moreabout what work intelligence
index does.

SPEAKER_03 (16:14):
How do you even?
I mean, this this is just out ofmy curiosity.
How do you even come up with anassessment assessments like
that?

SPEAKER_05 (16:21):
I mean, that has got to be a big undertaking.
I know, and this is kind of CJ'slike genius as well.
But it started off like it, likeCasey was saying, it started off
going, we love the Enneagram,but there are parts that are
just not completely holistic.
And even though there are nine,you still kind of get put into a

(16:42):
bucket, and that's your bucket,and you know, you don't drip out
of that bucket, even thoughthere's a lot going on.
And it just became like, okay,there's so many ways in which we
all operate.
And I know with the Enneagram,it also talked about like heart
and gut, and that was somethingthat we kept going back to.
Like, okay, we we use all three,we're not just one, like,

(17:03):
there's no way to just be one.
And I think that's where peoplecan get a little frustrated with
the Enneagram because they willhave a feeling or experience
something that's not in thatlane that they're told that
they're in.
And as humans, we're just sointerconnected.
And so that's kind of whatstemmed that as well is because
work intelligence has yourcognitive intelligence, your

(17:25):
emotional intelligence, and yourinstinctual intelligence and how
you use all three, how you usethem well, how you struggle with
them, and they're gonna show updifferently for each of those 27
different types.
And so that kind of led intookay, we'll incorporate that.
And then there was just morethat we wanted to go into like
how do you show up as a leader,a team member?

(17:47):
How does burnout look for you?
How do you get to burnout?
Even things like informationprocessing speed, which is such
a very hard to tell thing on thesurface, but it's a huge
difference in people.
And Candace, I know you'remarried to a five, right?
Like he's a five.
I'm also married to a five,right?
Yeah, slower processing, and I'mnot even that fast of a

(18:10):
processor, but that differenceis stark.
And so there's just so much wekept finding that we wanted to
include, and so it be kind ofbecame the assessment to like
end all assessments because itjust gives you so much
information about how you'rewired.

SPEAKER_07 (18:25):
Yeah.
And like for instance, Candace,I mean, Marty and I are both
sevens, but we are wildlydifferent.
Sure.
And I think that's like so that,and I mean, that's the case for
Enneagram too.
But I think a lot of times inthe workplace, people just like
Marty was saying, they stick youin your bucket and like, oh,
well, she's a seven.
Um, but they're so wildlydifferent.

(18:46):
Like, no four is the same, nothree is the same, nobody's the
same.
And so what work intelligenceindex really does is it breaks
it down even further and givesyou like really specific
characteristics that read yourmail.
Like you're like, oh my gosh,you are in my head right now.
Like, you get me.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (19:06):
And it's wild, even though, like, between me, Casey,
and CJ, CJ's our our otherfounder, she's kind of the one
that pioneered this.
She like, we're all in gramsevens.
Oh, are you?
You're all sevens?
That's awesome.
All different, very different,but also in some ways similar.
Yeah.
But I even go back, even thoughwe created this assessment and

(19:27):
like our own character types,like I still am using that, like
looking at it going, oh, thatgot me in trouble today.
Like, I know this is sometimes anine-coded thing, but I don't
like conflict.
And I've gotten time and timeagain where I will avoid it or
gloss over it.
And that's like a section in ourresults.
And I'm like, even this week, Iwas like, oh, that bit me in the

(19:48):
butt because I didn't face ithow I should have.
And like in our results, it'stelling me you need to be more
direct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And not withholding and notlike, oh, it'll be fine.
Like, no, it won't.
You gotta face it.
And it's crazy.
It's like it's such a guide inso many ways at this point, even
though we created it, I'm like,oh, I should, I gotta go back

(20:11):
and look at my ownsupplyability.

SPEAKER_03 (20:13):
It is, yeah, yeah.
Well, and thinking about whaty'all were saying earlier, too,
it because we are we aremultifaceted people, right?
This assessment, it sounds likeit shows that full story, but
specific to the workplace.
Because how I mean, how is am Ihow is my personhood, Candace,
outside of work, showing up atwork just because that's who I

(20:37):
am?
And how is that making mestruggle in certain aspects of
my work?
And it's so it just brings thatto the awareness, it sounds like
very much.
I love it.
Okay, so the podcast is gonna belike y'all diving into these
different like categories ofpeople and typings and okay.

SPEAKER_05 (21:00):
Yeah, I think Perfect World is having a whole
all 27 and multiple versions of27 and just like like getting to
deep dive into results, gettingto deep dive into the stories of
people and how they're using it,and and then even just anything
that can be related topic-wise.
Like I feel like you're such agreat resource because you're
obviously gonna be on it too,and having that perspective of

(21:23):
dealing with people day in andday out of that mental health
burnout piece, like that's evensomething that we'll love to
explore.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
Oh, so exciting.
I'm so excited.
Oh, I can't wait.
I can't wait.
I can't wait.
All right, well, so who wants tostart with their rants today?

SPEAKER_05 (21:42):
I have one.
I don't know if you have one,Casey.
I do.
She's got one.
Okay.
I'll start.
I'll I'll start.
This one's not necessarily likea I feel like it's more of like
an emotion, not emotional, butlike motivational rant that I've
had just in the back of my headfor a couple months now.
But I don't know what it was,but one day I got really fixated

(22:05):
on the topic of just like payattention to passion because I
just believe like if you knowwhat lights you up, yeah, you
are going to enjoy your lifemore.
But I think it's a not that it'snot that simple.
And I I went down the rabbithole of like, I wonder how many
TED talks are on this topic.
And I started looking at it, Istarted seeing it, and I saw a

(22:26):
few.
There were a few that were like,follow what you love, follow
passions.
But there were way more peoplesaying, don't follow your
passion.
Oh, that's not realistic.
Follow what you're good at, notwhat you really love.
Like that's just dumb to followthat.
Huh.
And I get it from that realisticstandpoint of yes, you can't
drop everything and just go be arock star.

(22:47):
Like, I get that.
But I think it's a a deeper,more detailed thing.
If you can pay attention to allthese little things in your life
that make you happy or give youjoy, that can be almost like a
tool to mitigate burnout.
Because yes, we can't work a jobalways that we absolutely love
and it's great.
And work isn't always thatsimple.

(23:08):
Right.
But to me, I was like, yes, butif you can like figure out,
okay, what's a workout that Ireally, really love?
Like Casey, like if runninglights you up, like make sure
you're doing something like thatand not just doing it because
you feel like you have to, butthat's something that can kind
of add to your day.
And same with just little thingslike, oh, I really love

(23:29):
conspiracies about mermaids.
Like, okay, yes, I want to godown that road hole.
Yeah, you know, and it's andit's just stuff like that.
That I don't think we're taughtto pay attention to it and the
importance of it.
It just kind of is a fleetingmoment, and we're like, oh, that
was so fun, and then we carry onour on our day.
And so I don't know.
I just it's just been in on mymind for a couple months because

(23:52):
I think if you can just trackthat, it's almost like this
thing where you go, if I'mstruggling and I and I get it,
people don't have time, theworld is overwhelming.
Like, yeah, right.
We all have kids, everyone'sneeds come first.
It's not like you can just stopand go, okay, I'm gonna go do
this workout or do this thingbecause I want to.

(24:12):
It's like you have to prioritizeit to make time for yourself,
and that can feel selfish or canfeel like just not a priority
because you've got a millionother things going on.
Anyways, that's kind of my rantof just like how just paying
attention to it and logging itand like knowing this is what
can really be life and fill mycup in small ways can just be

(24:36):
really, really helpful.
And I just don't think we'retaught to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (24:39):
Well, and I think it's very easy to feel bad, like
you said, to feel bad to dothat, right?
To feel selfish.
Okay, so so in you know, in thefuture, look for Marty's TED
Talk on I love that.

SPEAKER_05 (24:52):
If there are girls, I literally put it in Chat GPT
and I was like, okay, I'm justgonna store this for when the
time comes.
But it's just been on my brain,and I'm like, people need to
know what makes them happybecause I think there's
genuinely a lot that don't.

SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Okay, well, what Enneagram number do y'all think
does the best job at?
Because I have I have a theory,but I'd love to hear what y'all
think.

SPEAKER_05 (25:19):
Oh, definitely seven.
Okay, okay, definitely seven.
Yeah.
Yeah, I'm trying to think.

SPEAKER_03 (25:27):
I actually think fours probably do I was gonna
say four next sevens and fours,because because I have a friend
that's a four, and she lovesthings so passionately.
And I mean, almost like a littlekid, right?
Like she's just obsessed withit.
And and we all love, like,that's one of our favorite
things about her because nobodyloves anything as much as

(25:49):
Britney.

SPEAKER_04 (25:50):
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:52):
And my husband's the same way.
Oh, yeah.
Is he a four?

SPEAKER_07 (25:56):
As a four, as a four, yeah, obsessed with the
ocean.
Like, I get that.

SPEAKER_05 (26:01):
I get that on a deep level.
I even can see eights beingreally like in tune with
passionate things, just becausethey can go either way, yeah.
Whether it's like bad intensityor good shorts, I think they are
more aware of it.
But then there's definitelytypes that don't even, it's not
even on the radar of what wouldfill their cup or make them

(26:24):
excited.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:24):
Well, like I'm thinking of a nine, like even
they may have passion, but youthey may not even know because
they're so like, you know,neutral about a lot of things,
most things, everything.
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (26:38):
Or that like should factor.
Like, I feel like three probablyhas a lot of like, oh, I should
like this.
I should like being in a managerrole.
I should like, you know, doingwhatever because it looks good,
but they don't actually care.

SPEAKER_03 (26:52):
And it's like that they think they should.
Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Okay, I like it.
I like it.
All right, Casey, what's yourrants?

SPEAKER_07 (26:59):
Um, yours was so much better, Marty.

SPEAKER_03 (27:01):
My no, this is good.
I I'm excited about yours.
All right.

SPEAKER_07 (27:05):
So the other, the other last Friday, I took my
daughter to go see FreakierFriday.
And if you remember FreakyFriday as a kid, like it was so
total nostalgia.
And they did such a great job,too, of like bringing in all of
those old callbacks andeverything.
And I left the theater feelinglike, oh man, I miss a good 90s

(27:25):
rom-com.
Like, we haven't had a goodromantic comedy in forever.
And like, you know, people arelike, Well, there's Hallmark,
but it's not, it's like Hallmarkhas its own thing, right?
Like it has its own formula,like small town girl, meets a
big town, you know, like it'sthe same thing every time.
Yeah, and I just miss like theMeg Ryan and Tom Hanks era.

(27:46):
One of my favorite movies of alltime is A Fair to Remember, like
the old, like Carrie Grantversion.
Yeah, and you know, the onethat's referenced in Sleepless
in Seattle with Tom Hanks, theMeg Ryan.
And that movie, like, will feellike love can change your whole
life.
Like, love can change the wholetrajectory.
You leave feeling so inspiredand motivated and like good

(28:07):
inside.
But I feel like all the rom-comstoday have an agenda and they're
just they're so full of allthese like nuances and just
stuff that you're like, eh, thatwasn't necessary.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (28:19):
I think they make them more complicated than they
happen to be.

SPEAKER_01 (28:23):
Yeah, like just give me give me a good like city
backdrop, like a character, likefeel good, good music, but not
cheesy, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (28:33):
Because that's more like the Hallmark situation.

SPEAKER_07 (28:36):
Yeah, yes, like but in rom-com, like in the theater,
you know.

SPEAKER_05 (28:42):
And I don't know if this is rom-com, but legally
blonde will just always make mehappy.
Oh, yeah.
Any day of the week, it'll makeme happy and feel empowered.

SPEAKER_03 (28:50):
And and sweet home Alabama.
Yeah, that's a really good one.
I love that one too.
Yes.
What what like I can't eventhink of what maybe uh one of
the last rom coms what?
No, they just fall short.
They're just not they're notmemorable.

SPEAKER_05 (29:06):
Yeah, yeah.
They're not comfort movies.
Like, I feel like the ones thatwe've had you can watch over and
over again and you're excitedabout it.

SPEAKER_03 (29:13):
These are like, all right, so yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_05 (29:16):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (29:17):
Okay.
Well, I mean, you're in the filmindustry.
Yeah, I might have to do, Imight have just make one.
I think you should.
I think you should.
Yeah, okay.
So Marty's gonna be have a TEDtalk.
Casey is going to give us thenext best.
We're putting it out there now.
Here we go.
Here we go.
Love it.
You heard it here first on thecouch next door.

(29:40):
All right.
Yeah.
Okay, let's dive in.
Let's dive in.
Um, okay, so I'm excited to havey'all because so often, you
know, people are coming into thetherapy room and talking about
work, right?
Work is one of the mainstressors, right, that people
are experiencing.
Um, and so that's Constantlysomething that's coming in.

(30:01):
And so for me as a therapist,I'm I'm talking more about like
the emotional piece and like howis that impacting you at home?
And we talk a lot about, youknow, work dynamics and
work-life balance and burnout,like how much too much is too
much for you and where do we setboundaries and stuff.
Um, so I'm excited to hear likereally what y'all's specific um

(30:25):
advices, encouragement is forpeople in the work life space
when we're talking about mentalhealth.
Um, so jumping in, I mean, Iknow a lot of the things that,
you know, on your website andsome of the stuff with the um
the assessments is reallyknowing how to work well within
a team, right?

(30:46):
So the work dynamics.
So what would you say is one ofthe more important um what are
one of the more important partsof like work feeling like a team
sport?
Like having the that cohesion.
Why is that important?

SPEAKER_07 (31:03):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, when you thinkabout a team and you think about
a team sport, like if oneperson's doing all the work,
you're not gonna win.
Like that person's going to burnout, they're going to be
exhausted, their legs are gonnagive out if they're running down
the soccer field and they'retrying to get every single goal.
And so you can't carry the ballalone.
Like you have to pass it off,and it has to feel like a team

(31:26):
effort and celebrate onestogether.
And that's what makes a greatteam, right?
So they're sharing the weight ofevery single challenge that's
coming their way.
They're um, they're bringing outeach other's strengths in the
best way.
And I think it in that way, whenwhen you do have a very cohesive
team, it's going to create thisreally great energy rather than

(31:48):
exhaustion.
So you're not going to burn outas fast because like I know
Marty's strengths and I knowwhat I can pass off to her, and
I can like pass the ball downthe field and I can go ahead and
run this direction and be readyfor the pass off.
Like that's so important on ateam.
And I think we miss that a lotof times in the workplace.

SPEAKER_05 (32:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
My brain immediately went tolike, if you think about a
football team, everyone hastheir role.
Yeah.
And there's a reason why, andI'm not a football person, so
don't, you know, judge myknowledge of this, but like,
there's a reason someone'skicking versus sure, you know,
charging into somebody else.
Like everyone, when you'reaware, like, oh, you're really

(32:27):
good at this thing, it's not areflection of, oh, I'm not good
at that.
It's that's what they need todo.
And then I do this so that waywe can play to our strengths and
not get fixated on what we'renot good at.
Obviously, always continue, youknow, working on what you can to
improve.
But like when everyone knows,like, okay, this is why they're
in that seat, this is why I'm inmy seat, it feels better because

(32:51):
you're getting to do what you'regood at.
You're getting to do whatyou're, you know, aligned for.
And then when that happens, likeCasey said, the energy is there,
it's more cohesive.
Yeah.
But it does take breaking downthat barrier to go, okay, here's
what I'm not good at.
Here's where I struggle, andthat's okay.
And it's okay that you're betterat X, Y, and Z than me.
Like Casey's so good withmarketing and all things like

(33:13):
that.
And I'm like, I don't evencomprehend half the stuff that
goes into all of that.
And so, and that's okay.
Like, that's why we have certainthings that we're better at.

SPEAKER_07 (33:31):
It's almost like we wanna we wanna make sure that
we're first, right?
We want to make sure that likewe've got this down, we want to
make sure that we're lookinggood in front of our CEO or
whoever's on our team.
Like, but you're choosing thewrong kind of work.
So you're saying yes to thewrong kind of work.
And this goes for even likefreelancers, because I mean, I
was a freelancer for most of mylife, right?
Like I said yes to every projectthat crossed my desk because I

(33:55):
wanted the money, I wanted theincome, I wanted to make sure
that I kept clients happy.
And at some point, you're goingto become so burned out and
you're gonna continue to work onthe projects that you really
that you said yes to that youreally love.
And like you, Samarty, like payattention to that passion
because you'll see like whatyou're passionate about.
But then you're also going tocompletely burn out over here on

(34:16):
these other projects becauseit's the wrong kind of yes, it's
the wrong kind of work.
You shouldn't have said yes toit in the per in the first
place.
And so then you get stuck inyour solving problems that you
shouldn't be solving, and you'respending energy where you're not
wanted and you could be creatingmore impact over here.
And so it's being able torecognize that and being able to

(34:37):
recognize okay, this is whereI'm strong in, I can say yes to
this, I can feel confident inthis, this is where I this is my
superpower.
That I said yes to, right?
Am I gonna feel drained at theend of it?
Like those are important thingsto keep in mind.

(34:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (34:58):
And if you are in a season where you have to say yes
to draining things, likeknowing, okay, how else am I
gonna take care of myself if Iknow I'm going down this path?
And is there an end?
Is there a time that that'sgonna stop where I can get back
into other stuff?
But I I truly believe there's somany people that are stuck and

(35:19):
are stuck in things that drainthem.

SPEAKER_00 (35:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (35:21):
And for however many reasons, can't fully get out of
that.
But it's like, how do you addthings in to mitigate that as
well?

SPEAKER_03 (35:30):
Well, and and the assessments that y'all created
is such a helpful tool becausethen you can identify, you know,
these these are my you know,flaws of set maybe saying yes to
too many things, or this is whatI am good at, these are my
strengths, these are the thingsthat I'm not so good at.
I mean, and then and thinkingback to what y'all were talking

(35:50):
about as far as the team sportgoes, what do y'all see gets in
the way of that cohesion?
I mean, the one thing that I'mthinking of is ego, right?
Like people admitting thatthey're not good at something,
they don't really like to dothat.
Um, they want to be first, theywant to be, you know, get the
accolades from the boss orwhatever.
But is there anything outside ofjust egos that's so many?

SPEAKER_07 (36:15):
Yeah, I bet.
There's so many.
I mean, a lot of times I thinkpeople get left out too, because
you know, there might be two,you know, like I always go to
soccer analogy.
I played soccer, but like theremight be two forwards down the
field that know exactly how towork with each other and they're
so great.
And they forget to look back atthe midfield to give themselves
a little relief, right?
And so like they're leaving thisperson out that's a great asset

(36:38):
because they already know, like,oh, we've got this, we've done
this before, we got we couldmake this goal.
Um, so I think that's a that'sanother big thing too that
happens.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (36:46):
I think it's learning to translate what's in
the assessment to real life aswell, because we can say, like,
oh, yes, there are fastprocessors, slow processors, but
if you're in a meeting andyou're leading this and you
might be a leader who's fastprocessor and you're like, okay,
we're gonna have this meeting,we're gonna have a decision and
we're gonna be done.
And then there are people inthat room that moderate to slow

(37:07):
processors are taking in thatinformation, they're mulling it
over, and they need more time.
Like, yeah, if they wrap thatmeeting up and go on with their
day, those those people are justgonna go, okay, whatever, on to
the next thing.
I'm but they might have anamazing idea 24 hours later that
would make it so much better.
And it's just learning thatlittle, it's like I say

(37:28):
awareness, but it's just thatlittle, like, oh, I need to be
thinking of my team in multipleaspects and not just the lane
that I'm used to being in,because that's how I'm wired.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (37:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (37:41):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (37:42):
Well, and I'm also thinking developing trust.
I mean, how because like if youknow, like you're saying, Casey,
if you know Marty's strengthsand she knows yours, then then
there's that mutual trust andthat mutual influence, right?
Like you can hand that over toher and feel good about that
rather than feeling like, oh,well, she's better.

(38:04):
You know, the comparison.
So I I wonder like, how doesthat, and this may go into where
we were going next, but how doyou develop that kind of trust
on a team so that there is thatcohesion?

SPEAKER_07 (38:16):
Yeah.

unknown (38:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (38:18):
I mean, that goes right into, you know, one of our
big things that we do with thework intelligence index is know
your team.
Like it starts there.
Okay.
Um, because when you have abigger picture of how the people
on your team are wired,immediately you are creating
more empathy for those on yourteam.
You're able to understand, like,oh, well, that makes sense.

(38:39):
Like she's uh, you know, she'sgonna need a day or two to think
about this and not give me aquick answer.
Um, or or oh, she, you know,doesn't really love working on
those little admin type projectsthat drains her.
Like when you know that aboutsomebody, you know how to how to
first of all, you know how tolike come to them with it,
right?
Like, I know you hate this.

(38:59):
Would you mind just taking alook at it for me?
You know what I mean?
Like, because I because I valuethis, what you're gonna say in
this particular area.
Um, so it starts there.
It starts with knowing yourteam, knowing their, like
working with their gut, workingwith their heart, working with
their cognitive intelligence,like being able to know all of
those pieces.
That's that's key.

SPEAKER_05 (39:19):
Yeah.
And I think a lot of really highperformers are yes people.
Like they're ready to take oneverything.
They're ready to help, they'reready to do, they're ready to do
that above and beyond, which asa leader, you're probably like,
yes, they're doing all thisstuff.
They're thriving on the surface,they look great.
And then they're they're runningthemselves into the ground and
they, you know, either quit orimplode out of nowhere.

(39:42):
And I think as a leader, it'slearning, okay, that that's that
type of personality.
How do I protect them fromoverdoing or over saying yes?
And vice versa.
Like, how do I say, actually,this task goes to you, this task
goes to you, and everyone's intheir right lane versus, oh, I
know she'll do it, she'll do agood job, right?
Which is the easy way to kind ofget work done.

(40:03):
Yeah.

unknown (40:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (40:04):
Yeah.
And when you understandsomebody's strengths, when you
understand their style and likewhat they what the value that
they're bringing, it makesconflict go away.
Like you're, I mean, you'llstill have conflict, but it it
also makes it less personal.
So like you're not going to takeit personally all the time.
You're going to understand,like, oh, well, that's just
their strength and this is mine.

(40:25):
Um, it the team feels morecohesive.
It feels more natural.
It's like, uh, and I love thisbecause our work ethos is a
light bulb, but it's literallylike turning on a light bulb and
a dark realm.
Yeah.
Like you're able to just seethings in a new way and through
a new lens.

SPEAKER_05 (40:41):
Yes, exactly.
And I think what one way,because we obviously have work
intelligence, which is like thispersonality hardwiring at work
guide.
Like it's hefty.
I think I can't remember howmany pages the full report is,
but it's like 10.
So it's it's lengthy.
But then we have anotherassessment that's a little bit
quicker, a little bit more cutand dry, which is our work style

(41:03):
DNA, which is basically yoursuperpower, competency, and
drainer.
Like, what are you really goodat?
What's going to drain you?
And it's a little bit more cutand paste.
And now I know work isn't, oh,I'm only in my superpower.
Like, there's no way, like, lifeisn't like that.
But that's one tool that we havethat can help you go, oh, that's
what she's really good at.
Or is she getting to do that?

(41:24):
Is he getting to do that?
Or am I, or is the work alldistributed incorrectly right
now?

SPEAKER_03 (41:29):
Yeah.
Well, and when I think about itthrough the mental health lens,
humans like to feel seen, right?
And so, like that when when whena leader can see all of these
layers in this one person,they're not just seen as I'm the
worker or I'm the I'm just theemployee, and I've I've been
told to do this, so I'm gonna dothis.

(41:49):
Even like what you said, theexample you said, Casey, of
going to somebody and saying, Iknow you really hate this and I
know this is a drainer for you.
And I really need you to look atthis, right?
Like, I mean, it's justacknowledging their personhood,
acknowledging that this isprobably really hard and a big
ask.
And you still need them to dothat.
I mean, just like like you said,that empathy brings that

(42:11):
connection and creates, youknow, like I know that you're a
person and I see you and I knowthis is hard.
And so I'm I'm in that with you,right?
Like, I'm not just throwing thisat you because it's your job and
you've got to do it, but I'masking and inviting you into
that with me because I see youand I understand you.
And I mean, just that, like, ifwe can just somehow create all

(42:35):
work environments just based onthat, like yeah, forget all the
other stuff.
Like, if people can just feelseen, that's huge.
And this is such a great toolfor people to feel seen and
understood because it tellstheir full story of who they
are.
Yeah, I love that.
Okay.
So we're talking, we're talkinga little bit about like knowing

(42:57):
your team's strengths, workstyles, and values and how that
helps with the environment.
Is there anything more to add tothat conversation, like why it's
important to know strengths,work styles, and values to help
with the dynamic?

SPEAKER_07 (43:13):
I think a lot of times workplaces they tolerate
the differences, you know, likeyou know somebody's different,
yeah.
Right?
Like you, but like so you justtolerate, like, oh, that's just
how she is.
But I think when you are able tosee, like I said, like their
strengths, their values, theirwork style DNA, it takes it from
that to like now you'releveraging their differences.

(43:34):
Now you're able to be like, oh,okay, here's how you're
different, and here's how thiscan be an amazing asset to this
project right here, or this, youknow, it's it changes, it just
completely changes it.

SPEAKER_05 (43:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And on that same vein, I think alot of leaders will hire people
that they think are very similarto them and they like that
because that's very comfortable.
They're like, oh, I work hard,they work hard, I'm extroverted,
they're extroverted, this isgonna be great.
And they think I just need tokeep replicating that.

(44:06):
I've been in a workplace wherethey were like, we just want
this one type of person, it'sthe only person that's gonna
thrive in this.
So we copy and paste, copy andpaste.
But that's exactly how you endup with a misalignment of tasks.

SPEAKER_03 (44:19):
And yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's that's a very interestingthing for me to even think about
because you're absolutely right.
I think if you don't have thatkind of awareness of why
differences are good, right?
Why differences make our teamstronger, then you, yes, you
will stay in your comfort zone.
Absolutely.
Like, I know how to get alongwith this person, I know I can

(44:41):
count on them in this particularway, but what are we missing,
right?
Like, what are the holes in allof that?
Because this one particularperson is not good at
everything.
And so there's no way thatyou're covering everything that
needs to be covered in you know,the work, the tasks, even like
the dynamic.
Like, there's so much that canbe missed there.

(45:02):
That's interesting.
Yeah, I never thought about likethat.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So embrace the differences, lookfor people that are different.
And if you know that, right?
Like if you know, like this isthat person's strength, this is
that person's weakness, goesback to what y'all were saying,
then you can know where they'regonna thrive.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (45:20):
And that's I think we're going the same place,
Casey.
I I saw it too.
Um, and that's why we we kind ofcreated this communication
matrix.
It's a big chart of all yourteam members and all their
different like communicationstyle conflict, information
processing.
It's a a big um kind of chartthat leaders will get and it

(45:42):
will show you okay, you've gotall these people with, you know,
whether it's all the same ordifferent, like you get to see
all those differences andsimilarities, but it'll show you
pretty quick, like with likework style DNA, you could have a
whole team of innovators andneed a navigator.
Yeah, right.
You could have a whole team ofhot, fast processors and have no

(46:03):
slow processors.
And it's like, oh, that's what Ineed to look for in our next
edition.

SPEAKER_07 (46:08):
Yeah.
So it fills the gaps for you.
You're able to see clearly andyou're able to use it as a as a
playbook.
So like you can just keep it inyour desk and be like, I gotta
go have a conversation withMargaret.
Let me see how I do that.

SPEAKER_03 (46:22):
Yeah, yeah.
Or there's an opening.
What kind of a communicator arewe needing on our team?
Yeah, right.
Um, oh, that's amazing.
Okay.
We'll get we'll get to thatbecause I want to talk a little
bit more about like what thatlooks like tangibly and
tactically when you are workingwith other businesses.
But um, okay, so if we'retalking about just individuals,
right?

(46:42):
And knowing like me as anindividual employee or whatever,
knowing what my work values are,like what's most important to
me.
Why is that important when we'retalking about maybe avoiding
burnout or when we're talkingabout advocating for what we
need?
Um, again, in the therapy room,a lot of times I'm talking with

(47:04):
people on how to advocate forboundaries or how to be maybe
more direct with theirleadership on what what they're
needing or or what kind of tasksthey want or or need to sort of
delegate.
Um, and so why is it importantfor individuals to know their
work values in order to advocatefor themselves?

SPEAKER_07 (47:24):
Well, it takes the pressure off completely off the
leader.
So, like if the leader'salready, you know, are is able
to know the team so well, theyalready know like what's gonna
drain them because they can justlook at their playbook, right?
They look at their matrix.
But it makes it easier for theteam member to go to the leader
and say, Hey, this is this is aboundary I'm gonna have to draw

(47:47):
just because I know my limit andI know this is gonna really
drain me.
Here's what I can offer in thisspace.
Like, you know, it and it andthey'll understand that because
they they then have the playbookbefore them.
So it takes the pressure off oflike a really difficult
conversation that might givesomebody a lot of anxiety when
they go to their when they go totheir superior or whatever.
Like that would be a verydifficult conversation.

(48:09):
But instead, you're like, as youknow, I've now taken some time
to process this because I'm aslow processor, and here's where
I've come up with, you know, andthey'll be like, Oh yeah, okay,
well, thank you for bringingthat to my attention.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (48:22):
And I think too, exactly, it it gives them their
own like language for theboundaries.
And it's like, well, if this issomething like I need to
protect, or if you know it'sjust feeling seen or empathy is
a huge boundary, and maybeyou've got a manager that really
isn't very emotional or doesn'treally go into that lane, like

(48:45):
just being able to have thelanguage to say, like, hey, it's
really important for me tounderstood.
I don't know if I fully get thatfrom you.
Yeah.
And it's like not as it's justit's just giving the language to
be a little bit more direct andnot so like, how do I say this?
Why do I feel this way?
Is this right?
Is this wrong?
And like having your results,it's kind of like a nice way to

(49:06):
go back to that and go, okay,this is literally how I'm wired
on a piece of paper.
It's not me just beingdifficult, right?
Yeah, this is me.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (49:15):
Yeah.
And even like for somebody thatmight value a challenge, like
want to be challenged a littlebit, they're able to like go and
say, Hey, this project's goingto challenge me.
That's going to stretch me.
And I love that.
So, like, let me take lead.
You know, like maybe there's alittle bit of confidence boost
in somebody to be able to putthemselves in that position
because they're like, hey, look,on paper, I love this.

(49:36):
So, like, I really love this.

SPEAKER_03 (49:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and going back to yourrant, Marty, like passions.
Like, if we know and and whatthis information, these
assessments tell us is whatwe're good at, maybe what our
strengths are, what ourweaknesses are.
And yeah, like what you'resaying, Casey, we can volunteer
for something because we'relike, oh no, I know this is
gonna be hard, but I'm gonnalove it.
Like this is gonna be amazing.
But we see that on paper.

(49:59):
So you're y'all, what y'all aresaying is so right on and so
helpful, I think, for people toknow in like black and white
terms, this is what I'm good at,this is what I'm not.
So it's okay, right?
Like it's almost giving them apermission slip of it's okay for
me to set a boundary herebecause I am gonna struggle with
it.
And that's okay because look atall these great things that I I
am equipped with that I'm ableto do.

(50:20):
Because it's, I mean, our brainsautomatically go to, you know,
the shortcomings, the negative.
And in that mindset, it's sohard to remember the things that
we are good at because we justget overwhelmed and flooded with
the shortcomings in that moment.
So being able to have thatinformation in front of you and
say it's okay that I'm setting aboundary here and advocating for

(50:40):
myself in this lane because I'mable to offer so much over here,
and that's where I need to focuson.
And so going back to burnout,because you said something,
Casey, in your form of burnoutisn't about too much work, it's
about the wrong kind of work.
So, can you speak a little bitmore on that specific topic?

SPEAKER_07 (50:59):
Yeah, and that goes back to our work style DNA.
So, like, you know, we're we'reeither an innovator, we're a
navigator, or we're afacilitator.
And there are veryfacilitator-specific roles, you
know, that are more um boots onground, get it done.
And then the innovators are theones that are like behind the
scenes, like creating the thing.
Like they're they're creatingthis new project that we're

(51:22):
about to step into or this newproduct that we're about to
launch.
We can't begin those boots onthe ground without that.
And the boots on the groundfacilitator people are not gonna
love the innovation piece,right?
But let's say they're in a rolethat requires more innovation
than they're able to do, or thatthey're competent in doing it,

(51:46):
but it it's the thing thatdrains them.
And so when you know that aboutyour teammate, you can be like,
oh my gosh, I have you in thewrong seat.
Like you need to take what youknow, what Marty's created over
here and then go do it.
Like you're you're gonna be theperfect person to make sure that
we follow through because we caninnovate all day long, but like

(52:07):
you're itching to get out thereand do it.
And so there's gonna be, andthat's gonna cause friction if
you don't know that about theperson, because they're gonna be
the ones that are likeinstantly, well, let me just go
do it.
Like, right, here's here's how Iknow I can get it done.
Here, here's I already have themap, I have the spreadsheet.
Like, and they're like, Well,that's not what I told you to
do.
You're supposed to continue toinnovate.
Yeah, so like, so when you'reable to know that and and say,

(52:30):
Oh, well, you're just in thewrong role, you're in the wrong,
you're you're picking the wrongthing or saying yes and the
wrong thing, that's where you'regonna be burned out because
you're doing things that aredraining you.
Yeah, and and like the other oneis navigator, and so they're the
ones, and we we have like handlanguage around this that we
that like unintentionallyhappened because like I'm a
navigator, and so when I talk,it's always like it's more like

(52:53):
direct, like it's like weshould, we should, or you know,
and then like the innovatorsmore like, what if we like their
hands are always up, likestreaming, right?
Or like looking up in the sky,like, oh my gosh, I just have
the best idea.
Yeah, and the facilitators aretypically like palms down, like,
oh my gosh, there's out, there'samazing, and so that's kind of

(53:15):
how you can figure out likewhere you land in that space.

SPEAKER_04 (53:18):
Yeah, but yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (53:21):
I've even noticed because work is fluid and work
requires you to do all three.
I've noticed on days likenavigation is my drainer, and
I'll be able to pinpoint like,why was this day so maddening?
Why am I so brain tired?
And it's because I've beenhaving to navigate and like push
things forward and get people todo stuff.

(53:43):
And I'm like, I'm so tired ofdoing that.
And I have to just remember atthe end of the day, I'm like,
okay, that was a day thatrequired a lot of me to be in
that mode.
Doesn't mean like, and my dayisn't always my work's not
always like that, but there aretimes where it's like, that's
why.
That's why I'm tired.
Yeah.
And yeah, it just gives you thatreasoning to it's okay.

(54:06):
Like, we're gonna get back inour main mode.

SPEAKER_07 (54:08):
Yes.
And on days like that, I thinkit's really important to have
self-care, like some kind ofpractice in place that you can
just like okay, that day wasdraining.
I need to put something on thecalendar that I'm looking
forward to that's going to fillme back up.
You know what I mean?
And like, because if we'reconstantly going into days like
that, and we might have tobecause of the role that we're

(54:30):
in at work.

SPEAKER_06 (54:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_07 (54:32):
If we're constantly doing those things and we're not
filling our cups back up, yes,forget about it.
Like you're you're it's gonnacome out sideways.

SPEAKER_03 (54:40):
Yes, right.
Well, and knowing that, right?
Like you can plan for thosethings if you or at least be
aware of it, right?
Like if you know that you had anavigating sort of day, and or
maybe a string of days, right?
Like, and you feel drain.
Again, there's that language,right?
You know why, and you know thattaking extra care of yourself on

(55:01):
that particular week or weekendor whatever is so important.

SPEAKER_05 (55:07):
And it really is wild to me because I have worked
in a job that that was my mainrole.
And it is wild how much it justtook so much energy out of me.
I was angry, I was so like justnot a good version of myself,
but I was doing the job and itwasn't bad.
It was shine.
But I think that's where so manypeople they end up getting stuck

(55:30):
working in only their competencyor only their drainer and are
not even getting to touch whatthey're really good at, but
they're getting praised for thework they're doing, but they're
still at the end of the dayexhausted, and it's kind of
giving that again that thatlanguage to it.

SPEAKER_03 (55:45):
Okay, this makes me think of one thing.
Like if somebody is, you know,looking at I don't know, trying
to get a new job or whatever,looking at, you know, what what
do I do next?
Or I need a job, how do theysort of filter that?
Because I mean, that's alsosomething that I talk a lot with
clients.
It's like, okay, well, you know,what are your values?

(56:06):
Not as y'all are doing it.
Now I have a tool and a place tosend them, but like, yeah, what
what are you good at?
Where's a job that you feltreally good?
And how do they do that so thatthey either, I mean, I think
obviously taking theseassessments, but how do you look
for that?
How do you look for that andknow that when you're doing job

(56:27):
interviews and stuff?

SPEAKER_05 (56:28):
I think one thing you can do is asking, like, if
you have made it, obviouslylooking at the job description,
like, does this look like onpaper, just yeah, lots of
leading, lots of innovation,lots of tasks?
And there's always going to be acombination of those things, but
like just trying to make sureyou're starting there.
But I think in the interview,asking, like, when you think
about this person in this role,what does it look like for them

(56:51):
to be successful?
What strengths are valuable inthis role?
And I think just getting reallyspecific, like, you know, what
does that look like?
What does a typical day looklike?
And I think there are roleswhere they go, oh, this is a
brand new role.
This is brand new.
We're gonna have you design it.
That's a lot of innovation andnavigation right there.
So it's like if they don't havea clear idea of what success

(57:14):
looks like and it's gonna haveto be created, like that's
already a flag of like, oh,you're gonna be steering the
ship.
Yeah.
So I think just specificallyasking to get those details in
your fan.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (57:30):
Okay.
So somebody's listening and theywant to dive deeper into all
these concepts.
They want to understand theirfull story, they want to have a
better work-life balance, theywant to manage the burnout and
make sure that they're doing thethings that they're doing the
right tasks, right?
Um, what's your encouragement?

(57:51):
Where do they start?
What do you really want them tofocus on?
What's your you know, bestadvice?

SPEAKER_07 (58:01):
I mean, definitely take the assessments because I
think that's gonna give you areally nice, um, just a good
little starting point, a littleplaybook.
Um, diving in, just remainingcurious.
I think taking one, like it's anoverwhelming amount of
information about yourself,right?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (58:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (58:19):
So even like taking it in chunks and just, you know,
you don't have to figure it allout at once, but taking it in
chunks and kind of noticing howthat shows up for you during the
day, um, seeing where those painpoints are and like, oh, wow,
that actually does drain me.
And I never realized it before.
And so once you're able to starttaking um just kind of a

(58:40):
self-examination of that, thenyou can begin to work on those
things internally.
And growth takes time.
Just like, what gives me energy?
What gives me passion?
Like, what am I actuallypassionate about?
What do I, how do I value mytime?
Where do I like spending it?
Um, just asking those questionsare going to get you a little
further down the road in that.

(59:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (59:03):
That was really great.
I'm trying to think of anythingto add.
I think I think too, just beingpatient with yourself, like once
you are noticing all of this,like noticing it in real time,
because that that, like Caseysaid, that takes time.
Yeah.
Just seeing, okay, this reallyis how I'm wired.
This is a situation, and I maybedidn't handle it the way I

(59:24):
wanted, but now with thisinformation, I can, you know,
handle it better the next time.
And I think getting others'perspective too, like Sherry,
get your friends to take this,share results, compare,
contrast, like whether you havea partner, parents, whoever, get
them to take it, and you can allsee how similar and different
you are, and that just kind ofhelps you have a sounding board

(59:45):
as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (59:46):
Well, and so I I took the the assessments.
Um, I think I don't know.
Do you remember Marty?
I think I was a facilitator andthe Benevolent Bridge.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I told Marty, I said, youknow, it.
Was a little tricky for me.
I kind of had to think about whoI am outside of work because I'm
solo, like completely solo.

(01:00:09):
Um, but what I thought wasreally interesting is, you know,
again, going back to what y'allare talking about, like knowing
the things that drain me,knowing where I feel like
excited and energized, not onlyin my work life, because since
I'm solo, but like, I mean, I'vegot to work with people all the
time.
Like I'm managing soccer teamsand I'm going to school events

(01:00:32):
or whatever.
But again, it goes back to thefirst thing y'all said.
It tells the full story of whoyou are.
And so I can even see in thosesituations, maybe it's not my,
you know, nine to five, but it'swho I am in any of these
situations where I have to workwith other people.
So I say all of that becausemaybe you're not in a

(01:00:53):
traditional work environmentwhen you think of a work team.
This is still really valuableinformation because nobody's
completely isolated 100% of thetime in every single
environment.
You are having to work withpeople in some capacity, in some
way.
And this is valuableinformation.
It just brings that awareness ofwho you are in those dynamics

(01:01:16):
and where you're going to shineand where you're going to feel
drained.
Um, so I say all that because itwas a little hard for me to
conceptualize that, but then Ikind of just had to think, okay,
what are the other environmentswhere this makes sense?
And and and there are, there arevery many.

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:34):
And it kind of goes into that ripple effect, like
how you show up when you'reworking versus home.
It just all writes together.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:43):
Okay.
All right.
Before we get to our self-carequestion, is there anything that
we didn't cover in the meat ofthe topic that y'all wanted to
cover?

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:54):
I will say one thing to kind of go off of this.
Um, because I know in your lane,you're really just you're one
solo shop person.
And I think we actually areprobably gonna anticipate
working with a lot of peoplethat are in that role and about
to bring in more help.
I think that's kind of our sweetspot of like, okay, maybe
they're a team of two, even justa team of one, being like, I

(01:02:15):
gotta hire a business partner oran assistant, or like I can't do
this all alone.
And I think that's kind of oursweet spot of like, okay, let's
help you actually build the teamthat you need and a team that's
gonna help you thrive and you bethe leader for these people.
How's that all gonna go?
I think that's another way inwhich we use this information.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:34):
Well, yeah, because then I can know, like if I
needed an assistant or whatever,needed somebody to help me, I'm
gonna know what I need to lookfor so that I can do the things
that are the right work for meand I don't have to do the work
that drains me.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Super helpful.
Because I think for when I thinkabout myself, you know, I I

(01:02:54):
until this conversation,honestly, I don't think I would
have put that much thought intoit.
You want to help me?
Great, come on.
But now you're available and Idon't have to pay you a lot,
great.
Yeah, I got it right.
Yep.
Um, but no, knowing where I havethe strengths, because I'm gonna
want to do that work and I'm notgonna want to let go of that
work.
So, but if I'm hiring somebodythat's good at the same things,

(01:03:16):
they're gonna want to do whatI'm doing.
And I'm not that what are wedoing then?
Like, why did I hold you?
This is a waste of everybody'stime.
So yeah, no, absolutely.
I think that's super helpful tohave that information.
Yeah, good, good.

unknown (01:03:28):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:29):
Okay, so I want to ask a two-parter with the
self-care question.
So Neil kind of touched on it alittle bit as we were talking,
but what are like one or twothings that you would recommend
that people do to take care ofthemselves well in their
workplace, in their work life?

SPEAKER_05 (01:03:46):
I think you have to do like head, heart, and gut
combination of self-care.
Like you can't just pick one.
Okay.
You can't just do the, oh, I'mgonna work out and I'll be okay.
Like, I think you've got to dolike the body, the physical.
I think you've got to dosomething for your mind, like
whether that's having aconversation or you know,
catching up with friends orstimulate or like listening to

(01:04:06):
an audiobook, whatever it is.
Like health for brain, healthfor body, and health for heart.
So whether it's you know, morerelational moments or I'm trying
to think of more emotionalrelated self-care, but just
trying to encompass all threebecause I think if you at least
try, then it's a little bit moreholistic than just okay, I'm

(01:04:27):
just gonna meditate and be done.
It's like you need to, but itmay not be enough.

SPEAKER_07 (01:04:33):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
I like that, Marty.
Mine, I mean, I go all in, and Ido this because I have been in
so many seasons of burnout, um,not just in work, but as a mom,
as you know, I care for I havethree kids and they're all
neurodivergent.
And one has, you know, extreme,he's intellectually disabled, so

(01:04:56):
he has a lot of special needs.
And I got to a place where I hadcovered up my stuff so deeply,
just shoving everything underthe rug that I completely
collapsed and burnt out.
And so I went hard and like,okay, I don't need just a
massage or go get my nails done.

(01:05:18):
Like, I needed to shut it alloff.
And so about four years ago, andI try to do this once a month,
but I will turn off myelectronics, let my husband know
where I am.
So, like, you know, if I youdon't hear from me in like the
next five hours.

SPEAKER_06 (01:05:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:05:35):
Um, but I turn everything off and I turn my
mind off, and I just sitsomewhere pretty for four to
five hours.
It's like my silent retreat.
And we have a lot of springshere in in central Florida, so
that's one of my favorite thingsto do.
But um, it's amazing what willcome up for you.
It's the most, it's challenging,especially for me, because I

(01:05:56):
just don't do well sitting.
Like the two-hour mark comesaround and it's like an itch,
and I'm like, ah, what ishappening in the world?
Um, but it also is sochallenging because your mind
has to settle.
Like you aren't giving it spaceto do anything but.
And the other day I did this andI was sitting there just looking

(01:06:17):
at the lake for like an hour,just staring at the lake, not
even writing in my journal.
I wasn't doing anything, butjust looking at the lake.
And I'm watching the rippleskind of come forward and
everything.
And you, you know, you you paymore attention to the sounds
around you.
So in that way, it is kind of amore holistic experience because

(01:06:37):
you're all of your senses arecompletely heightened because
there's nothing competing.
There's no competing noise, nocompeting voices aside from your
own.
And as I'm like watching theripples on the lake, this eagle
flies down, swoops in, gets afish, and then just swiftly
flies away.

(01:06:57):
And it was so beautiful.
And I would have completelymissed it.
Yeah, if I was doing if my headwas down on my phone or anything
different.
Um, but it just took being stilland like the great glory that
shows up when you do, just takethat time for yourself.
And I think everyone needs someform of a mental day where they

(01:07:18):
can just check out, like brainoff, let me be.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:07:23):
And you cannot create from a place of
overwhelm.
And we walk around overwhelmedso much.
And if you were in a place whereyou're needing to create, try
that because it will open up.
So, like, don't go with theexpectation of creating, like,
go with the expectation of justeating, and then creating will

(01:07:44):
come later.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, because what you're doing,I mean, mental health in the
mental health world, thatemotional regulation is rooted
in our five senses.
And that is kind of the theplaybook, if you will, if I'm
gonna use y'all's language.
Um, if somebody is feelingemotionally flooded or

(01:08:07):
dysregulated, that is alwayskind of my go-to is to coach,
check in with all five senses.
Like, what do you see?
What do you smell?
What do you feel?
Right.
And so, like what you're saying,Casey, is by cutting all of
those other stimulations off,you're able to just be immersed
in your senses.
And that's such a beautifulgrounding tool by just kind of

(01:08:29):
shutting everything off so thatyou can experience your whole
self in a much more natural way.

SPEAKER_07 (01:08:38):
Yeah.
And and there's a um, there'ssomething I've used in the past
called Snap.
Have you ever heard of Snap?
So it's like um this can be veryhelpful when you're at work.
Uh, if you're in like a verystressful work environment and
you're around a lot of people,and maybe something's come up
for you personally or at work,it doesn't matter, you know,
whatever's coming up for you inthe moment, and it just feels

(01:09:00):
really overwhelming.
And you can't run away for fourhours.
You can stop.
And I recommend like walkingoutside for a minute, maybe even
taking off your shoes and justletting your feet like be
grounded.
Because you mentioned grounded,that brought brought that to my
mind of like just put your feeton the grass and just get
grounded.
So stop and then notice likewhat am I feeling right now?

(01:09:23):
Now that I've stopped, like,what am I feeling?
Like, what what's around me?
Um, what am I noticing about youknow what's coming up?
Where's where am I feeling it?
Right.
And then assessing thesituation.
So then you're like kind of likeassessing and asking if it's
true.
Like, is this, you know, thingthat's coming up, is it true?

(01:09:46):
And then, like, is it reallytrue though?
Like, yeah, what are you doing?
Am I just thinking that it'strue?
Right.
What are the facts?
So then ask, and then P ispivot.
So then you're able to be like,okay, I don't have to feel this
overwhelmed right now and get aplan.
Like it's like pivot in a plan,right?
So where you're able to be like,okay, I've got to go back into
work.
I have three more hours left.

(01:10:07):
Here's what I'm gonna doafterward.
Or it's just pivoting for themoment, but it it centers you
enough that you're not gonnarespond to that email in a bad
way.
Right.
You're not going to, you know,go off in your coworker because
you're having this emotionalthing that's happening that she
knows nothing about.
Um, you're able to reassessyourself and snap out of it.

(01:10:27):
So that's what I love that likeanalogy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:30):
Oh my God.
That's it right there.
That is yes.
That microphone.
Yes.

SPEAKER_05 (01:10:37):
Oh, yes.
I need that written down on mywall.
That's it right now.
The ask part or like the is ittrue part.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:45):
Oh, yeah.
Okay, so Casey, you'll probablyneed to do a TED talk on that.
Can we add that?
Maybe you give Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:10:53):
I don't think I'm I'm not the first person to come
up.
I'll have to credit the rightperson because it wasn't me, but
I've been doing it for so longnow.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:00):
If you're the creator of Snap, comment.
You added your own flair, youknow, like yeah, true.
Casey's version of Snap.
Okay, any other personal thingsthat y'all do to take care of
yourselves well these days.

(01:11:21):
Marty, have you been to anickelback concert lately?

SPEAKER_04 (01:11:27):
I still to this day.
That is one of my favoriteconcerts.
It was so good.
It was so good.
It was so fun.

SPEAKER_05 (01:11:38):
I don't care where they are next.
Like, if we can go to it, we'regoing again because it was
amazing.
Oh, it was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:45):
Casey, how do you feel about nickelbag?

SPEAKER_07 (01:11:48):
Great.
Listen, 90, there's nothing like90s music.
So like all of it's just it'sgood.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:57):
I use your rant about nickelback as an example
for people all the time.
Because it was a good one.
Like it was something like Ilove nickelback and I don't care
who knows it.

SPEAKER_05 (01:12:06):
You know?
And I just think I don't thinksome justice because they got so
much hate.
And then it's not worth it.
There are worse.
There are worse things.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:16):
They're definitely worse things than nickelback.
Okay.
Uh y'all are the best.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited to share all ofthese resources with people.
Okay, so how do people find you?
Um, how do they work with you?
I think y'all have a newsletteron your website.
Like, tell us all the thingsthat we need to know to stay

(01:12:37):
connected with you.
Um, and if somebody wants towork closely with y'all on, you
know, their work team orwhatever, what do we need to
know?
How do they connect you?

SPEAKER_07 (01:12:48):
Yeah, we have uh Instagram, it's the Work Ethos.
We also, you know, we have awebsite, workethos.com that has
our tools on it, our workintelligence index and our work
style DNA.
So both the tools that we'vetalked about.
Um, we also have a newsletterand a podcast coming out soon.
And I highly recommend signingup for the newsletter because we
have something really specialthat we're gonna be hopefully

(01:13:08):
launching in the fall for womenfounders specifically.

SPEAKER_06 (01:13:12):
Okay.

SPEAKER_07 (01:13:13):
Um, and so it would be really great to catch up on
the newsletter.
So you can keep keep a bridge ofthat.

SPEAKER_05 (01:13:19):
If you like TikTok, I'm coach Marty underscore work
ethos.
Silly fun videos.
Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:26):
So y'all work with teams of people.
Yeah.
And y'all go through thesedifferent assessments and help
them sort of come up with theirroadmap too.
Okay.
Okay.
Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 (01:13:40):
I think our sweet spot is probably small business
owners.
That's really like that's whywe're launching at least for
women founded first, justbecause we're we're in that
boat.
We are women founded smallbusiness.
Yes, yeah.
Um, so small business owners,because we understand this isn't
always the priority.
The priority is just getting thebusiness going.
And so I think that's really whowe can help quickly the most.

(01:14:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:04):
Yeah.

unknown (01:14:05):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:05):
Awesome.
Well, thank you all.

SPEAKER_07 (01:14:07):
Yeah, you can also um like just reach out to us
because we're friendly people.
Yeah.
And we would love even if youjust want to hop on a call and
like, hey, you don't uh reallyfeel your result, like we're
happy to help you out.

SPEAKER_05 (01:14:19):
So okay, that's that is something I'm very passionate
about.
That's my my favorite.
So you read your result andyou're like, eh, kinda, like we
have a whole process we canverify.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:30):
Okay, so take baby first step, go to the website,
take the assessment, read theassessment.
If you're uncertain of yourresults, reach out and y'all
will help navigate that.
Okay, awesome.
Awesome, awesome.
Yep.
Well, thank y'all.
Uh, I'm so excited to share allthese resources.
I'm so excited for the podcast.
I know I've said that a milliontimes, but I know it's been in
the work, so I can't wait.

(01:14:51):
We are too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right, thank you guys.
Thanks for coming on and sharingall the things.
Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:00):
Okay.
I will be carrying thedefinition of burnout as not too
much work, but the wrong kind ofwork with me forever now.
It is imprinted on my soul.
I hope this conversation gaveyou some real food for thought
about how we approach work,mental health, and the dynamics
that shape our teams.

(01:15:20):
Remember, knowing yourstrengths, your values, and what
drains you isn't just good foryou, it's good for the whole
working team.
When we create space for empathyand open communication, we don't
just work harder, we worksmarter and healthier.
If you're curious on divingdeeper into these topics, keep

(01:15:41):
an eye out for the launch ofMargie and Casey's new podcast,
Work Intelligently.
I promise I will keep y'allposted, but be sure to follow
along with them so that youdon't miss when Work
Intelligently launches.
It's going to be full ofpractical tools, powerful
conversations, and the kind ofinsights that help you show it
better for yourself and yourteam.

(01:16:02):
Head over to the show notes toaccess their website and social
links so you don't miss anythingthey're creating.
You can also take theirassessments that are super
eye-opening when we're talkingabout aligning our strengths and
values in our work life.
Work ethos only createsinsightful, encouraging, and oh
so accessible content, Ipromise.
And what about that self-careacronym that Casey shared, SNAP?

(01:16:24):
That's when I'm going to have tobring it to the therapy room.
I'm just gonna have to borrowit.
And hey, if this episoderesonated with you, share it
with a friend or teammate.
This is just another way that wecan take care of ourselves and
our work environment and teamswell.
Let's keep the conversationgoing.

(01:16:51):
The information included in thispodcast does not replace that of
your own professional therapy.
If you believe you're in need ofprofessional assistance, please
reach out to the medicalcommunity in your area.
The Couch Next Door with CandaceFraser was created by me,
Candace Fraser, graphics byJason Fraser, music by Josh
Bissell.

(01:17:11):
You can find the show notes andaffiliate links on
CandaceFraserLPC.com.
Click on the tab Podcast andyou'll find all podcast-related
content there.
I'd love to connect with you onInstagram.
Find me at Candace FraserLPC.
Give the show a rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
This really helps get the showto more listeners in the world,

(01:17:34):
and I would be so grateful tosee what you all are loving.
Until next time, show kindnessto yourself and those around
you.

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