Customer Success Playbook Podcast S3 E62 - John Huber - Who Should Really Own Upsells and Cross-sells?

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Wednesday brings the burning question that divides CS and sales teams everywhere: who should own expansion revenue? John Huber tackles this contentious topic with nuanced insights drawn from his experience managing both dedicated CS-led expansion models and hybrid partnership approaches. Rather than offering a one-size-fits-all answer, John presents a thoughtful framework for determining the optimal structure based on deal complexity, sales cycle length, and organizational maturity. He shares specific examples of successful implementations, including a sophisticated model where CSMs handled straightforward upsells and renewals while account executives managed complex expansion opportunities. The discussion dives deep into compensation structures, forecasting methodologies, and the critical importance of clearly defining roles to avoid territorial conflicts. This customer success playbook episode provides practical guidance for leaders struggling to optimize their expansion strategy without sacrificing customer relationships.

Detailed Analysis

This episode addresses one of the most politically charged topics in revenue operations: expansion ownership. John's approach demonstrates sophisticated thinking about organizational design, moving beyond simple "CS versus Sales" debates to examine the underlying factors that should drive structural decisions.

The hybrid model John describes represents an evolution in CS thinking, recognizing that different types of expansion opportunities require different skill sets and engagement approaches. His 70/30 compensation structure (70% quota-oriented, 30% experience-focused) within the variable component offers a practical framework for balancing commercial accountability with customer-centric behaviors.

Particularly valuable is John's emphasis on forecasting churn and renewal business with the same rigor as new logo acquisition. His practice of conducting detailed risk assessments 4-5 months before fiscal year start demonstrates the proactive mindset required for successful renewal management. The recommendation to begin renewal conversations 12 months in advance challenges the reactive approach many organizations take to customer retention.

The discussion also highlights the importance of cross-functional partnerships, especially between CS and finance teams, in developing accurate forecasting models. John's collaborative approach with his CFO shows how CS leaders can elevate their strategic influence by speaking the language of business operations.

For revenue leaders, this episode provides a decision-making framework for expansion ownership that considers deal complexity, resource allocation, and organizational capabilities rather than defaulting to territorial thinking.

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Episode Transcript

Kevin Metzger (00:10):
Welcome back to the Customer Success Playbook
podcast.
I'm Kevin Medsker Roman,unfortunately is unable to join
us this week, but we are hereagain with John Huber.
It's Wednesday, which means it'stime for one big question, but
before we get into it, we'regonna.
Loosen up with a fewicebreakers.
John, what's one song thatalways kind of fires you up

(00:33):
before, like a big presentationor, you know, going into, to
really close on something?

John Huber (00:39):
It's a great question.
I'm a big music fan.
I say my go-to is a song calledDisco by Widespread Panic, which
is, uh, it's an instrumentalsong, just puts a smile on my
face, very upbeat, uh, and kindof gets you in that right
mindset.
Widespread panic.
They're, uh, yeah, you're anAtlanta guy.

(01:00):
That, uh, what's that?
I said, you're an Atlanta guy.
They're from, uh, from yourarea.

Kevin Metzger (01:05):
That's what I was gonna say.
They're, they're big down here.
If you weren't in customersuccess, what career would you
pursue for fun?
I.
It's a great question.
Fun

John Huber (01:13):
being the optic, uh, optimal word.
Uh, would love to be aprofessional golfer.
My golf game is nowhere near,uh, suited to be a professional
golfer, but man, I think itwould be a ton of fun, uh, you
know, to have that, uh, thattime and uh, that passion.
So,

Kevin Metzger (01:31):
I don't know, I get so frustrated every time I
get out on the course, I don't.
It does seem like quite thelife.
What's your favorite thing toeither cook or eat and, and, and
Are you a cook or,

John Huber (01:47):
I do.
I do love to grill.
You know, I think my wife and Iboth cook.
Uh, I've got three girls athome.
I did get a new grill lastsummer and it came with a flat
top insert.
I found myself just loving tocook on the flat top fajitas.
Right.
You know, chicken, veggies,smash burgers, um, you know, I
didn't think I would use it atall.

(02:09):
And I, I mean, we use itprobably three or four nights a
week.
I absolutely love it.

Kevin Metzger (02:14):
I got my Blackstone.
Back before right around COVID.
I I don't know if it was 2020 orwhether it was 2019 that I got
it.
I know I was using it a tonduring COVID, but, uh, I still
still use it a ton to this day.
I actually, I probably need toreplace it at this point, but,
uh, it's fantastic.
Can do just about anything.

(02:36):
You can,

John Huber (02:37):
I haven't done breakfast yet, but I see a lot
of people doing breakfast, sothat's, that's my next, uh, my
next challenge.

Kevin Metzger (02:43):
Yeah, breakfast is good.
I guess we should get into it.
It's one Wednesday is one bigquestion.
Who should own expansion andupsell?
Should it be in CS or should itbe in sales Hybrid?
What's your thought?

John Huber (02:56):
Yeah, that's a great debate.
And I, I would tell you itdepends.
Um, and I'll share a couple ofexamples because I've lived in
both worlds.
I've worked at a couple ofcompanies where 12 months after
the original deal was signed,the CSM would own, you know, the
expansion, the upsellopportunities, the renewal

(03:17):
opportunities.
Like my most recent company asan example, we made a, a pretty
important decision early on aswe were building out the teams.
To have an account executivepartner with A CSM and both sell
back to the customer.
And, and the reason we did thatwas, you know, we were selling
highly complex, typically verylong enterprise type sales

(03:39):
motions.
And so I.
When we're selling a newdivision to a large
pharmaceutical company inEurope, oftentimes that takes on
a life of itself, and you stillwanna have the CSM dedicated
towards all of the things thatthey do.
So, you know, we would align theaccount executive to handle kind

(03:59):
of the larger, complex sellingmotions.
The CSM would still manage, youknow, the, I would say more
straightforward, upsell,cross-sell opportunities, but
then also manage a renewal.
And it created a really tightpartnership between the two.
Where we are, we're able toreally grow with our customers.
So.
I think it really depends onwhat's, what's needed at that

(04:21):
point in time for the company.

Kevin Metzger (04:23):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I,
I've seen, I've seen a lot ofsimilar, um, designs, like where
a lot of the renewals, it doesmake sense to, in my opinion, to
run through the CSM becausethey're the one engaged on the
day-to-day, but definitely forexpansion, depending on where
the expansions.
Occurring.
That's a partnership.

(04:44):
You want to be able to have, uh,the sales guy in working,
especially if it's somewhereoutside of the initial
environment.
But looking for the opportunityis such a, having the CSM help
look for the opportunity becausea lot of time, that's where,
that's where it does come from.
If you do have.
That structure right?
Where the CSMs helping with therenewal, but expansions coming

(05:07):
from the ae.
What do you see?
Do you look, what kind ofcompensation structure do you
like to see in that scenario?

John Huber (05:14):
Yeah, it, it, it's a great, so I'll kind of.
Share a, a couple of examples.
So I think first it starts withclearly defining who owns what
right across those two roles.
And, um, you know, we created a,an internal document to align
our team so they knew whichselling motion, you know, they
were responsible for, but wealso incented them to support

(05:37):
each other.
And so, you know, when you addthat element of you may get
partial credit for a largeexpansion opportunities to CSM.
You know, that also, um, helpskind of forge a, a pretty strong
BO bond and partnership there.
But when I look at a CSM compplan, you know, things that I

(05:58):
look for is balancing some ofthe commercial responsibilities
such as that, you know, thosequota bearing elements,
cross-sell, upsell, but thenalso the renewal motion and
balancing that with thenon-commercial aspects such as.
You know, driving, you know, apositive customer experience,

(06:18):
high net promoters, things ofthat nature, and aligning the
elements within the comp plan toincentivize the right behaviors.
You don't wanna over rotate toomuch on the sales component, but
you also don't want to, youknow, over rotate on the, uh, on
the non-commercial aspects aswell.
So I've often found kind of a 7030 split has seemed to work

(06:40):
really well.
70% being the commercial.
Quota related items, and then30% being,

Kevin Metzger (06:47):
you know, the

John Huber (06:47):
non-commercial items.

Kevin Metzger (06:49):
In that scenario, you're going with a 30% base and
70% based off of sales.
Just making sure I understood itthe way you meant it.

John Huber (06:58):
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
So within the variable componentitself?
Within the variable

Kevin Metzger (07:02):
component, yeah.

John Huber (07:03):
Within the variable, it's typically 70, 30, 70% being
kind of quota oriented.
30% being, uh, non quotaoriented.
And how do you like to structureit from a total comp?
Yeah, total comp two is usually60, 40, 60% base, 40% variable

(07:24):
up to, you know, 70

Kevin Metzger (07:26):
30.
You're definitely concerned whenyou've got churn.
How are you kind of monitoringfor, hey, these are churn risks
versus, Hey, I'm, I'm expectingrenewals to come this and this
is, what are the key indicators?
You're, you're

John Huber (07:40):
a great question.
I'm a firm believer inforecasting your.
Your churn business and yourrenewal business just as sales
forecast their new logobusiness.
You know, I, I, I got into a, amotion with my last CFO where we
would sit down about four orfive months before the start of
the new fiscal year, and wewould plan out what.

(08:02):
Anybody that we thought was atrisk as a possible revenue churn
or customer churn, and we wouldmanage to that with the goal of
beating our churn plan coming inunder the dollar amount that we
set forth, and we'd manage itall in Salesforce and then.
We manage all the oppor, all ofthat data would be captured in
the renewal opportunity.

(08:23):
So as you're having a renewaldiscussions, you're also aware
of what's at risk, why are theyat risk, and then how do we
mitigate that risk, um, in orderto prevent as much churn as we
can

Kevin Metzger (08:36):
really from an engagement standpoint.
Try, I, I'm guessing that trythat tends to drive engagement
for the renewal discussion.
Much earlier.

John Huber (08:45):
I used to, uh, tell my team, we've gotta start about
a year in advance.
And that doesn't mean you'vegotta put a proposal in front of
your customer 12 months inadvance, but you've gotta start
to have those conversations andyou never have as much time as
you'd like.
And, and so it's, it's givingyourself more time.
And if you can renew it early,that's, that's a good thing

Kevin Metzger (09:09):
too.
Awesome.
Well, we appreciate thoseinsights, John.
On Friday we'll wrap up byexploring how AI can help you
scale CS A CS team withoutlosing the human touch.
Don't miss it, like, subscribe,comment, and until then, keep on
playing.