August 19, 2025 • 9 mins
Ready to inject some punk spirit into your customer experience? In this episode of the Customer Success Playbook, Adrian Swinscoe joins Roman Trebon to explore the delicate art of reducing friction without losing that vital human touch. From the bustling cultural tapestry of Edinburgh’s Fringe Festival to personal tales of rock climbing and postponed trips to Japan, Adrian sets the stage with personality before diving into why not all friction is bad. He reveals why some “effortful” moments between a brand and its customers actually build loyalty, and how removing them in the name of efficiency can backfire spectacularly. If you’re looking to refine your customer journey without sterilizing it, this episode serves up the perfect balance of practical wisdom and a punk attitude.In a world obsessed with streamlining every process, this episode is a refreshing reminder that operational efficiency is not always the hero of customer success. Adrian Swinscoe brings a nuanced perspective: friction isn’t the bogeyman it’s often made out to be. By distinguishing between “good friction” — those meaningful touchpoints that enrich customer relationships — and “bad friction” that truly hinders progress, organizations can avoid the pitfall of a too-easy, yet emotionally barren, experience. His example of a company that saw sign-ups soar but retention dive thanks to over-simplification is a cautionary tale for businesses tempted to sanitize their customer journey too aggressively.The actionable takeaway? Approach your customer journey analysis with deliberate care and use data combined with direct customer feedback to fine-tune that balance. This means digging deep into customer stories and operational metrics to identify where technology should speed things up and where human moments need to be preserved or even amplified. Adrian’s advice serves as a critical chapter in your customer success playbook, fueling smarter decisions that respect both business goals and the emotional dynamics that bind customers to your brand.Bonus: His reflections on rock climbing as a meditative, focus-driven hobby provide a clever metaphor for the customer success journey itself—it’s about balance, precision, and the right amount of challenge.Now you can interact with us directly by leaving a voice message at https://www.speakpipe.com/CustomerSuccessPlaybook
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Roman Trebon (00:05):
Customer success.
Welcome back to the CustomerSuccess Playbook podcast.
I'm Roman Reaugh, uh, my co-hostKevin Meser.
Still out, still not with us,but, uh, we're moving on with
Adrian, uh, just like we didlast episode.
So, like I said, our guest isAdrian Scoe, uh, author of punk
(00:25):
cx, author of, um, how to Wow.
Speaker, author, et cetera.
You've, you've seen I did theintro last show.
Go back and listen to it.
So Adrian's back to talk about,uh, how to bring some serious
punk spirits, uh, to yourorganization.
But before we do, we wanna getto know Adrian a little better.
We have'em on the show.
So Adrian, I hope you're, uh,buckle up and ready for these
(00:47):
really hard hitting questions.
Adrian Swinscoe (00:49):
Let's do it.
All right.
Roman Trebon (00:50):
Awesome.
So, uh, if, if, if Kevin and Itake a take a road trip, we want
to come visit you.
I think you're in Edinburg.
Yes, I am.
Awesome.
What's the one thing we must dowhen we're in Edinburgh?
What's the, what's the go-toplace?
We gotta see.
Adrian Swinscoe (01:03):
Well, apart from the castle and all the
other kinda bits and pieces,'cause it's like there's not
many places in the world.
It's got a castle in the centerof the city.
That's kind of like, youdefinitely have to go and see
that.
But I would, I would suggestthat if you come, you, you come
to Edinburgh, you should planahead.
'cause it gets quite expensiveand really busy.
Mm-hmm.
But plan to come in August tocome and see the Fringe Festival
(01:25):
because it's one of the largestarts and culture and, uh,
festivals in, in the world.
And it's, it's.
If you wanna see theater ormusic or comedy or kind of all
sorts of other kind ofperformances, it says there's
thousands and thousands andthousands of acts and stuff and
people descend on it.
And it's like, particularly inthe comedy sort of space, it
becomes a, a breeding ground forkind of comics trying to break
(01:49):
into the big time.
And you see kind of the lots ofdifferent names.
People come from all over theworld to, to do it.
So it's, it's, it's crazy, butit's brilliant.
Roman Trebon (01:56):
Oh, I love it.
I love our audience.
You got, you got a couplemonths, so get those plane
tickets.
Look into it.
Fringe festival.
That sounds awesome.
I love, I love that.
Adrian, yourself, if you couldtravel one place you've never
been.
Where are you going and why?
Adrian Swinscoe (02:08):
Um, Japan, because of 2020, because in 2020
my wife and I had planned thisbig trip.
We were gonna go to Tokyo forthe second week of the Olympics,
and then we were gonna go on toFiji and then hang out in Fiji
for a little while, and thenwe're gonna come back, uh, via
Australia.
(02:29):
And visit some friends and thenhang out in Sydney for a little
while and then come back all theway home.
And that got blown up in, in2020.
And so Japan's definitely on ourlist.
We definitely wanna go back toJapan, so we're thinking about
going for the world.
Athletics championships maybenext year.
Roman Trebon (02:45):
Ooh.
Well, let me know because lalast time you shut that, last
time you trapped, uh, planned atrip to Japan, you shut down the
whole world, Adrian.
So let me know.
Gimme a little heads up whenyou're going just in case
something happens this time.
Just will do, will do.
I'm not prepared.
I'll, I'll stock up on watersand, uh, toilet paper.
Alright, so when you're notresearching cx, what's your
hobby or pastime that helps youin one?
Adrian Swinscoe (03:04):
Um, the thing that I really like to do, and
I've done it for, for a numberof years, is I like, I like
going rock climbing orbouldering just because I, like,
I've, I've rock climbed for a, along time.
Both, I mean, different parts ofthe world, kind of outdoors,
indoors, all these and differentsort of like seasons and stuff,
but just going to the rockclimbing gym and just doing a
(03:24):
bunch of routines or trying awhole bunch of kind of problems.
It's brilliant, it's greatexercise, but it's also quite
meditative because it's allabout balance and movement and
focus and all these differentthings.
So it becomes a bit like yogasort of thing.
You can go off and get yourexercise, but then do this kind
of thing and you come outfeeling everything is, you know,
everything just falls outta yourmind'cause it requires kinda
(03:45):
focus.
So it's a, it's a really greatway to, um, unwind.
But unfortunately I haven't doneit for a very while because I've
been dealing with somehistorical.
Got like some back injury stuff.
There's historical stuff, and soI'm out until September time,
but hopefully, I'm reallylooking forward to getting back
into it.
Roman Trebon (04:01):
That'd be awesome.
You, you're not one of thosethree climbers, right?
I'm not gonna see up the side ofa mountain with any ropes.
Right?
You have a rope, you're, you'relocked in and good to go.
Adrian Swinscoe (04:08):
I am when bouldering is all low levels, so
you can jump off onto mats.
I have nothing like kind of AlexHonnold that he is a, he is a,
he is a, a.
An incredible kinda human beingin terms of what he does.
But no, I'm tied to a rope thateven tied to a rope is dangerous
enough.
But when you can climb just withshoes and short bag, that's kind
of different level, man.
Roman Trebon (04:28):
Crazy.
I'm scared of heights.
I see those guys do.
I can't even watch the videos,Adrian.
I, I, I get freaked out justwatching it.
But what they do is amazing.
Awesome.
Thanks for sharing that.
I think it's time for us to getinto our one big question.
So, so Adrian, uh, manycompanies, they wanna reduce
customer friction, right?
Fewer steps, less friction,easier to get through, et
cetera.
But how, how do companies dothat without stripping out the,
(04:49):
the human or emotionalconnection that really helps us
get tied to the brand?
Adrian Swinscoe (04:53):
So I think the thing that we need to be, we
need to, first of all, we needto recognize there's, there's
good and there's bad friction.
And it's essential to know thedifference.
And I remember, so I'll, toillustrate this, I'll, I'll,
I'll.
I'll give you an example.
I remember talking to the CEO ofuser testing one time, uh, when
he was the former CEO of, ofuser testing.
Andy McMillan, when he was stillin post, and he told me this
(05:16):
story about a company that, um,that they worked with that was
infused by this idea aboutcreating this frictionless, kind
of like customer experience.
And they ended up taking allthese different kinda bits out
and out of the process andstreamlining it and things Now.
Here's what happened.
Signups to their, to theirproduct.
Kinda went up nicely.
(05:38):
But when it came to actuallytheir able ability to retain
customers, it fell through thefloor.
'cause and when they can, whenthey stopped and they thought
about this and that,'cause thatwas alarming to them, and they
were like, oh, it's easier forpeople to sign up, but we're
actually not keeping customers.
So it's like, oh, what have wedone?
Have we actually built thisboat?
We were trying to sell it with ahole in the bottom of it.
But when they looked into it andthey spoke to their customers,
(05:58):
what they realized was all ofthe steps that they'd taken out
that they assumed were effort.
Full, as it were, were thethings that were.
The word value defining for therelationship they have with
their customers.
So like imagine you go into a,um, like say, say you like
choosing a car or something andyou say, I want this car and I
(06:19):
want this, this paint work andthis finish and this drive, and
all these different sort ofthings.
Um.
What they were doing is theywere taking all these different
things out and it was almostbecoming automatic, like fixed
choices as it were.
And actually what they found outwas actually it was the choice
part of it.
The effort that was required tomake the choice was the thing
that was delivering the valueand sealing the relationship
(06:39):
they had with their, theircustomers.
And so what they went, they werelike, oh, horror and then
basically rewound everythingthat they did to try and.
Almost put themselves back towhere they were because what
they'd done by the wholefriction, uh, taking all these
steps out, they'd actuallyeliminated all the value making
steps that they had in it.
So it's a really important.
(07:00):
To, to understand what parts ofyour process are good friction
and what parts of the processare bad friction.
And you need to know thedifference.
'cause you don't wanna beplaying assuming that all
efforts is bad friction.
'cause that could be bad foryour business.
Roman Trebon (07:15):
Yeah, no, I love that.
I love that story.
Uh, it's, it's amazing, right?
You take all that out and thenyour clients are leaving through
the back door without even, uh,without even thinking about it,
right?
So, so for, for organizationswho want to do this.
Adrian, they want to kind oflook at their, their good
friction.
Bad friction.
How do they balance, you know,there's so much I feel like, uh,
focus on operational efficiency.
Yeah.
But how do you do that withoutlosing the connection with your,
(07:38):
with your customers?
Adrian Swinscoe (07:39):
It's a really big question and I, I, I, you
know, and I.
Who don't have time for me towrite well, to speak out an
essay, an essay on this book.
So I, I'd say two, like twothings.
Yeah.
I think you need to do itcarefully, carefully, and
deliberately.
And you have to think aboutwhere the customer's kinda
journey and where they interactwith you and what's the kinda
right balance of human and, andand tech and what, what, what,
what are things are, are realkinda like pain points that are
(08:01):
costing you the costing, uh, thebusiness in terms of operational
kind of cost or maybe kind oftoo much effort that you're
losing customers at those kindof points.
And then you just need to.
Again, go back to the data thingthat we talked about on Monday.
We need to go get into the data,then think to see about what
people are saying about allthese different sort of points.
And then if it needs to be, getout and talk to people about
(08:22):
what works and what doesn'tkinda work.
Hear are those stories.
Gonna listen to those stories,kind of like absorb those
stories.
'cause if you only, if you dothat carefully and deliberately,
then are, are you gonna get areal sense of what works and
what doesn't work and why youshould.
What you should be fixing, whatyou should be leaving alone.
Roman Trebon (08:37):
Yeah.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Awesome stuff, Adrian.
Really appreciate it.
Big takeaways, uh, really makesure you balance, understand
the, your customers goodfriction, bad friction, uh,
simplify, but, you know, maybedon't, don't, don't over, uh,
engineer it or, or sanitize it,right.
So, absolutely.
Adrian, you're gonna come backfor a third show, right?
I, we haven't scared way yet.
Yes, I'm awesome.
(08:57):
Awesome.
That's awesome.
For our audience, I hope youenjoyed the show.
Again, make sure you subscribeso you know, when our new shows
come out, like it, give us arating comment that really helps
us, uh, get, uh, our show out tomore professionals in the
customer success world.
As always, we really appreciateyou listening and keep on
playing.
Customer success.
Welcome back to the CustomerSuccess Playbook podcast.
I'm Roman Reaugh, uh, my co-hostKevin Meser.
Still out, still not with us,but, uh, we're moving on with
Adrian, uh, just like we didlast episode.
So, like I said, our guest isAdrian Scoe, uh, author of punk
(00:25):
cx, author of, um, how to Wow.
Speaker, author, et cetera.
You've, you've seen I did theintro last show.
Go back and listen to it.
So Adrian's back to talk about,uh, how to bring some serious
punk spirits, uh, to yourorganization.
But before we do, we wanna getto know Adrian a little better.
We have'em on the show.
So Adrian, I hope you're, uh,buckle up and ready for these
(00:47):
really hard hitting questions.
Adrian Swinscoe (00:49):
Let's do it.
All right.
Roman Trebon (00:50):
Awesome.
So, uh, if, if, if Kevin and Itake a take a road trip, we want
to come visit you.
I think you're in Edinburg.
Yes, I am.
Awesome.
What's the one thing we must dowhen we're in Edinburgh?
What's the, what's the go-toplace?
We gotta see.
Adrian Swinscoe (01:03):
Well, apart from the castle and all the
other kinda bits and pieces,'cause it's like there's not
many places in the world.
It's got a castle in the centerof the city.
That's kind of like, youdefinitely have to go and see
that.
But I would, I would suggestthat if you come, you, you come
to Edinburgh, you should planahead.
'cause it gets quite expensiveand really busy.
Mm-hmm.
But plan to come in August tocome and see the Fringe Festival
(01:25):
because it's one of the largestarts and culture and, uh,
festivals in, in the world.
And it's, it's.
If you wanna see theater ormusic or comedy or kind of all
sorts of other kind ofperformances, it says there's
thousands and thousands andthousands of acts and stuff and
people descend on it.
And it's like, particularly inthe comedy sort of space, it
becomes a, a breeding ground forkind of comics trying to break
(01:49):
into the big time.
And you see kind of the lots ofdifferent names.
People come from all over theworld to, to do it.
So it's, it's, it's crazy, butit's brilliant.
Roman Trebon (01:56):
Oh, I love it.
I love our audience.
You got, you got a couplemonths, so get those plane
tickets.
Look into it.
Fringe festival.
That sounds awesome.
I love, I love that.
Adrian, yourself, if you couldtravel one place you've never
been.
Where are you going and why?
Adrian Swinscoe (02:08):
Um, Japan, because of 2020, because in 2020
my wife and I had planned thisbig trip.
We were gonna go to Tokyo forthe second week of the Olympics,
and then we were gonna go on toFiji and then hang out in Fiji
for a little while, and thenwe're gonna come back, uh, via
Australia.
(02:29):
And visit some friends and thenhang out in Sydney for a little
while and then come back all theway home.
And that got blown up in, in2020.
And so Japan's definitely on ourlist.
We definitely wanna go back toJapan, so we're thinking about
going for the world.
Athletics championships maybenext year.
Roman Trebon (02:45):
Ooh.
Well, let me know because lalast time you shut that, last
time you trapped, uh, planned atrip to Japan, you shut down the
whole world, Adrian.
So let me know.
Gimme a little heads up whenyou're going just in case
something happens this time.
Just will do, will do.
I'm not prepared.
I'll, I'll stock up on watersand, uh, toilet paper.
Alright, so when you're notresearching cx, what's your
hobby or pastime that helps youin one?
Adrian Swinscoe (03:04):
Um, the thing that I really like to do, and
I've done it for, for a numberof years, is I like, I like
going rock climbing orbouldering just because I, like,
I've, I've rock climbed for a, along time.
Both, I mean, different parts ofthe world, kind of outdoors,
indoors, all these and differentsort of like seasons and stuff,
but just going to the rockclimbing gym and just doing a
(03:24):
bunch of routines or trying awhole bunch of kind of problems.
It's brilliant, it's greatexercise, but it's also quite
meditative because it's allabout balance and movement and
focus and all these differentthings.
So it becomes a bit like yogasort of thing.
You can go off and get yourexercise, but then do this kind
of thing and you come outfeeling everything is, you know,
everything just falls outta yourmind'cause it requires kinda
(03:45):
focus.
So it's a, it's a really greatway to, um, unwind.
But unfortunately I haven't doneit for a very while because I've
been dealing with somehistorical.
Got like some back injury stuff.
There's historical stuff, and soI'm out until September time,
but hopefully, I'm reallylooking forward to getting back
into it.
Roman Trebon (04:01):
That'd be awesome.
You, you're not one of thosethree climbers, right?
I'm not gonna see up the side ofa mountain with any ropes.
Right?
You have a rope, you're, you'relocked in and good to go.
Adrian Swinscoe (04:08):
I am when bouldering is all low levels, so
you can jump off onto mats.
I have nothing like kind of AlexHonnold that he is a, he is a,
he is a, a.
An incredible kinda human beingin terms of what he does.
But no, I'm tied to a rope thateven tied to a rope is dangerous
enough.
But when you can climb just withshoes and short bag, that's kind
of different level, man.
Roman Trebon (04:28):
Crazy.
I'm scared of heights.
I see those guys do.
I can't even watch the videos,Adrian.
I, I, I get freaked out justwatching it.
But what they do is amazing.
Awesome.
Thanks for sharing that.
I think it's time for us to getinto our one big question.
So, so Adrian, uh, manycompanies, they wanna reduce
customer friction, right?
Fewer steps, less friction,easier to get through, et
cetera.
But how, how do companies dothat without stripping out the,
(04:49):
the human or emotionalconnection that really helps us
get tied to the brand?
Adrian Swinscoe (04:53):
So I think the thing that we need to be, we
need to, first of all, we needto recognize there's, there's
good and there's bad friction.
And it's essential to know thedifference.
And I remember, so I'll, toillustrate this, I'll, I'll,
I'll.
I'll give you an example.
I remember talking to the CEO ofuser testing one time, uh, when
he was the former CEO of, ofuser testing.
Andy McMillan, when he was stillin post, and he told me this
(05:16):
story about a company that, um,that they worked with that was
infused by this idea aboutcreating this frictionless, kind
of like customer experience.
And they ended up taking allthese different kinda bits out
and out of the process andstreamlining it and things Now.
Here's what happened.
Signups to their, to theirproduct.
Kinda went up nicely.
(05:38):
But when it came to actuallytheir able ability to retain
customers, it fell through thefloor.
'cause and when they can, whenthey stopped and they thought
about this and that,'cause thatwas alarming to them, and they
were like, oh, it's easier forpeople to sign up, but we're
actually not keeping customers.
So it's like, oh, what have wedone?
Have we actually built thisboat?
We were trying to sell it with ahole in the bottom of it.
But when they looked into it andthey spoke to their customers,
(05:58):
what they realized was all ofthe steps that they'd taken out
that they assumed were effort.
Full, as it were, were thethings that were.
The word value defining for therelationship they have with
their customers.
So like imagine you go into a,um, like say, say you like
choosing a car or something andyou say, I want this car and I
(06:19):
want this, this paint work andthis finish and this drive, and
all these different sort ofthings.
Um.
What they were doing is theywere taking all these different
things out and it was almostbecoming automatic, like fixed
choices as it were.
And actually what they found outwas actually it was the choice
part of it.
The effort that was required tomake the choice was the thing
that was delivering the valueand sealing the relationship
(06:39):
they had with their, theircustomers.
And so what they went, they werelike, oh, horror and then
basically rewound everythingthat they did to try and.
Almost put themselves back towhere they were because what
they'd done by the wholefriction, uh, taking all these
steps out, they'd actuallyeliminated all the value making
steps that they had in it.
So it's a really important.
(07:00):
To, to understand what parts ofyour process are good friction
and what parts of the processare bad friction.
And you need to know thedifference.
'cause you don't wanna beplaying assuming that all
efforts is bad friction.
'cause that could be bad foryour business.
Roman Trebon (07:15):
Yeah, no, I love that.
I love that story.
Uh, it's, it's amazing, right?
You take all that out and thenyour clients are leaving through
the back door without even, uh,without even thinking about it,
right?
So, so for, for organizationswho want to do this.
Adrian, they want to kind oflook at their, their good
friction.
Bad friction.
How do they balance, you know,there's so much I feel like, uh,
focus on operational efficiency.
Yeah.
But how do you do that withoutlosing the connection with your,
(07:38):
with your customers?
Adrian Swinscoe (07:39):
It's a really big question and I, I, I, you
know, and I.
Who don't have time for me towrite well, to speak out an
essay, an essay on this book.
So I, I'd say two, like twothings.
Yeah.
I think you need to do itcarefully, carefully, and
deliberately.
And you have to think aboutwhere the customer's kinda
journey and where they interactwith you and what's the kinda
right balance of human and, andand tech and what, what, what,
what are things are, are realkinda like pain points that are
(08:01):
costing you the costing, uh, thebusiness in terms of operational
kind of cost or maybe kind oftoo much effort that you're
losing customers at those kindof points.
And then you just need to.
Again, go back to the data thingthat we talked about on Monday.
We need to go get into the data,then think to see about what
people are saying about allthese different sort of points.
And then if it needs to be, getout and talk to people about
(08:22):
what works and what doesn'tkinda work.
Hear are those stories.
Gonna listen to those stories,kind of like absorb those
stories.
'cause if you only, if you dothat carefully and deliberately,
then are, are you gonna get areal sense of what works and
what doesn't work and why youshould.
What you should be fixing, whatyou should be leaving alone.
Roman Trebon (08:37):
Yeah.
No, I love it.
I love it.
Awesome stuff, Adrian.
Really appreciate it.
Big takeaways, uh, really makesure you balance, understand
the, your customers goodfriction, bad friction, uh,
simplify, but, you know, maybedon't, don't, don't over, uh,
engineer it or, or sanitize it,right.
So, absolutely.
Adrian, you're gonna come backfor a third show, right?
I, we haven't scared way yet.
Yes, I'm awesome.
(08:57):
Awesome.
That's awesome.
For our audience, I hope youenjoyed the show.
Again, make sure you subscribeso you know, when our new shows
come out, like it, give us arating comment that really helps
us, uh, get, uh, our show out tomore professionals in the
customer success world.
As always, we really appreciateyou listening and keep on
playing.
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