From Operating Room to Beauty Clinic: Dr. Jessica West's Unique Path

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Alright, welcome to the Dariah Hammer Podcast.
Today I have an amazing guest.
She's a huge inspiration.
We met each other at a meetingin Chicago where we were both
featured as speakers and herstory was so fascinating.
After five minutes talking toher, I decided that I want her

(00:31):
as a guest and she gracefullysaid yes.
So her name is Dr Jessica West.
She's currently a medicaldirector for Michigan Center of
Cosmetic Services and she'sknown for her superior aesthetic
results in the area.
She's really sought aftercosmetic surgeon and we're going

(00:51):
to talk about that also.
She specializes in minimallyinvasive and non-surgical
treatments out of all things, asa surgeon in facial
rejuvenation and preventativeaesthetic medicine, which has
gained more and more popularityin recent years.
So she's double board certifiedby the American Board of

(01:12):
Cosmetic Surgery and Board ofAllangology and Facial Plastic
Surgery.
And she's definitely smarterthan I am because she received
the William K Miles Award and DrMiles was actually one of my
attendings during my fellowship,so I you know.
Rest in peace.
He passed many years ago andthat award goes every year to

(01:36):
the highest written board scoreby the American Board of
Cosmetic Surgery, and so she gotthat award when she took her
boards.
She's definitely smarter than Iam because I didn't get that
award and she did her residencyin ENT and Facial Plastics at

(01:56):
McLaren Oakland Hospital inMichigan, where she also
practices currently, and she didher fellowship in cosmetic
surgery with the one and only DrJacob Hayabi, who was a past
president of the American Boardof Cosmetic Surgery and a very
good friend of mine and awesomehuman being, an amazing surgeon
out in Southern California.

(02:18):
So you know I will withoutfurther ado, because I don't
want to take everything awayabout Dr West.
I want to have her something totell you guys too.
So, without further ado,jessica, welcome to my podcast.
It's such an honor to have youI know you have.
You wear so many hats in yourlife and your business, with

(02:39):
family, with your business andwith your patients, and taking
time out of your weekend and tocome and just chat with us.
It's an honor to have you.
I think you're going to be agreat inspiration to a lot of
our audience and our listenersand I want you to share your
story.
Now, before I let you introduceyourself, I have a question.

(03:07):
Absolutely, and as a surgeon,as a cosmetic surgeon, with all
these years of training I don'tknow what 15 years, or what now?
10, 15 years?
What the hell were you thinkingin giving up your surgical
practice and completelydedicating your practice to
preventative aesthetic medicineand non-surgical treatments for

(03:28):
facial rejuvenation?
Please share with us what youwere thinking and how you feel
about that decision today.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Absolutely so.
First off, thank you for havingme.
It is an honor and a pleasureto be here today.
Yes, so I am a six years ofsurgical training, 10 years of
schoolwork before that.
The surgeon who gave upoperating and most people in our
field and outside of our fieldmust be thinking what a crazy

(04:01):
person, why go through all ofthat training, all of that
sacrifice, to then stopoperating.
So I think to better portraythe picture of how I ended up at
this decision is-.
Yeah, give us a little context,let me dial it back.
So I finished my surgicaltraining in 2018.

(04:26):
So my background is five yearsof ENT and facial plastics and
then an additional year ofcosmetic surgery.
I also, being a crazy person,decided to take over a cosmetic
surgery practice immediately outof fellowship, so this is not a
traditional track.
Normally you join a practice,get your feet wet for a couple

(04:47):
years if you decide to go out onyour own or buy in as a partner
.
That's a more traditional track, and I happened to just land
into this opportunity.
I started to cold call people inMichigan, which is where my
husband and I are from, and knewthat we wanted to come back to
Michigan to be with family, andso I was just calling different
practices and it just sohappened that Dr Robert Burke in

(05:10):
Ann Arbor, michigan, had justput his practice up for sale two
weeks before my phone call, andso, like many things in my life
, that was just.
You know, I don't believe incoincidences.
It was just a very interestingopportunity at a very
interesting time for me.
So I cultivated my relationshipwith Dr Burke, looked into this

(05:32):
opportunity and while I waslearning to do tummy tuck,
breast augmentations andfacelifts, I was getting a crash
course in business, as I washaving to present business plans
to bankers, convince them togive me money to take over this
practice.
So I took over that practice in2019, march of 2019.
And within 30 days I found outI was pregnant with my first

(05:56):
child, took over the practice,or you know, signed our closing
agreements and then bought ourfirst home, all within 30 days.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
Got it yeah, and I kid you now, I was so nauseous
when I was signing those papers.

Speaker 2 (06:08):
I didn't know if it was because I was nervous or if
it was the pregnancy, so thatwas.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Now, before, before you, I want to, I want to stick
at that time, because that'svery important.
I just don't want you to flyover that, because that is the
one thing that many, if noteverybody, thinks it's an
impossible, it's a time and aphase it's impossible to manage,
because it sounds like, even ifyou make a movie about it,

(06:34):
you're like, come on, you knowthat's, you can't do that.
This is like, really, you know,it's just not real.
It's just not real, it's notpossible.
Why make a movie about it?
So tell me so.
There's a couple of things Iwant to address.
First thing is coming out oftraining, straight out of
training.

(06:55):
What gave you the courage, whatmade you believe that you're
going to be able to run abusiness successfully so you
don't go bankrupt?
And, yeah, what made youbelieve that there was some
inner voice?
And you probably talked to youand said, yeah, you can do this.
I want to unpack and, just forthe audience to understand, how

(07:15):
did you obtain that confidence?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So I think that's.
That is really a complexconcept.
So, on the one hand, one of thethings that I think are
surgical training instills in usis we get pushed to our literal
breaking point multiple timesand really in any physicians

(07:41):
training.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
But I really think in surgical trainings, it kind of
goes a little above and beyond.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
So you are instilled with a level of confidence that
you know, even if you don't knowthe entire game plan, even when
you are pushed to your brink ina breaking point, that you can
push through it and you willfind a solution to get you there
.
So I think that's that's alwayssomething that's instilled in
us.
From a specifically businessstandpoint, I felt like if I

(08:12):
could research something wellenough and speak to enough
people educated about theprocess that I could figure it
out.
So again, my program director,dr Jacob Hayabi, very business
oriented, and he was wonderfulin sharing the business side of
the practice and not justeducate us on the actual

(08:36):
surgical side of it.
I gained a lot of knowledge inmy fellowship alone just on how
to run a business, and thenanybody with that would let me
pick their brain.
I called them, I emailed them.
I think a really powerful thingthat you can do really
throughout your career, butespecially to residents and
fellows.

(08:56):
If you can be really succinctwith somebody's time and you say
, do you have 15 minutes where Ican just pick your brain and
will be ultra efficient, reachout, you'll be surprised who
will be willing to share theirwords of wisdom with you, and so
I really did reach out to a lotof people and I had my husband
help me with a lot of things andwe said you know, I think we

(09:19):
can do this.
You know, if you're going togamble on somebody, why not
gamble on yourself?

Speaker 1 (09:24):
And that's what we chose to do so, then let me so
let me take it further back.
What made you believe you canbecome a surgeon then?
Because you said you learnedthese traits in surgical
residency, and I totally agreewith you.
I mean, your face withchallenges is like failure is
not an option, like otherwiseit's going to be bad.

(09:46):
So I understand that part.
So now I take you further back.
What made you believe you canbecome a successful surgeon in a
world that is mainly dominatedby men and you're already an
outcast.
You're a woman and you aretrying to compete in an unfair
playing field, and let's justsay it how it is it is unfair,

(10:10):
and so that means yourconfidence came from way back.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah, so good question.
I think there's a verydefinitive point in medical
school where we're doing ourclinical rotations and there is
a defining decision.
You either decide you're goingto do something surgical or
non-surgical, and my firstrotation was internal medicine,

(10:36):
my first clinical rotation.
I was miserable.
I was like, oh my gosh, I'vemade a terrible decision with my
life.
This is.
I didn't like rounding all dayand discussing blood pressure
medications.
And then my second rotation wasgeneral surgery and most people
hated their general surgeryrotation.

(10:56):
Right, because the hours arenuts.
Your on call, it's highpressure, somebody's always
messing with you.
You're trying to close somebodyin anesthesia, letting the
patient wake up on you, andyou're always being messed with.
I actually felt like those weremy people.
So I very clearly knew that andthis is okay, I fit with this

(11:20):
group of people.
I didn't fit with the othergroup of people and I felt at
home From a technical point ofview.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
Were you an adrenaline junkie, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Yeah, I'm good with controlled chaos in many forms,
so I love that word.
Yeah, you know I'm a controlfreak so I don't want it to be
all chaos but definitelygravitate towards some
adrenaline things so very muchfit in there.
And then early on in ourcareers we are required to use

(11:51):
hands-on skill sets.
You start with suturing otherhands-on skills and it came very
natural to me and so early on Iknew I had the skill set, I
felt comfortable with it and soI ran with it and I knew it
worked out.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
So you did your undergrad in human biology and
psychology, right?
Is that correct?
Yeah, and you had specialemphasis in bioethics and such
right Yep.
So how much of that did helpyou within the whole journey and
even today?
How much of that is helping youtoday and throughout your

(12:31):
journey, from going throughsurgical residency then making a
decision to let go surgery Imean, did that play a role at
all, or was it just like meansto an end, kind of thing?

Speaker 2 (12:45):
So what I will say in hindsight when we're in
undergrad and you're pre-med andyou're a super gunner and
you're going for it, everythingseems so important that grade
you got on that exam, thatletter of recommendation
everything is like the end ofthe world to you.
In hindsight, 90% of it didn'tmatter Really.

(13:10):
It didn't.
Now exposure to certainexperiences in life living your
life while working your tail off, understanding and learning how
you handle pressure, how youhandle interpersonal
relationships.
Those skills and thoseexperiences were invaluable.
So I gained a lot ofexperiences that were very

(13:33):
important at that time, thathelped propel my career.
I made a lot of mistakes that Ilearned from.
That, I think, are sometimesthe most important experiences
you have when you're kind oflooking for progress but
ultimately when you think aboutactual coursework Sadly, I'd say

(13:54):
the majority- of it.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
You don't use.
Do you perhaps remember one ofthe biggest mistakes you made?
That if you were your 20 yearold self or 25 year old self,
you would go back and say, don't, do that, don't do that or, you
know, would you say youactually celebrated your
mistakes because if it wasn'tfor that big mistake, you

(14:17):
wouldn't be where you are today.
Like which one is it for you?
I'm definitely, I think, of thebiggest mistake.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
I definitely think you know and what, maybe what I
would have once labeled asmistakes or quote failures.
Now I kind of have a kinderapproach to that and I don't
give them those negative labels.
So maybe the thing that I wouldhave told 20 some year old
Jessica one maybe chill out alittle bit.

(14:45):
You know, these things are notthat important that you're
focusing a lot of energy on,into that, those moments where
you feel like a failure.
You know and for those thatdon't know me, I am your
stereotypical, like a typecontrol freak.
You know a lot of us becomesurgeons, so to kind of relabel

(15:11):
experiences not as failures ormistakes, but it's a learning
experience and it's ultraimportant for your success long
term.
So that's honestly what I wouldtell anybody in their 20s.
They're not failures, you'rejust interesting.
You know, it's a hurdle that youneed to get over to become the
person that you're going to be.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
Yeah, I think life slash perspective helps us with
navigating through that andunderstanding that mistakes is
just part of the journey andpart of the learning experience.
Now let's go back to the time.
Now.
It's interesting that youdecided to really take on all

(15:50):
those big challenges and so thenyou became pregnant, which is,
you know, part of being a woman,which is one of the.
You know I'm a family guy myself.
I, for me, it's family alwaysfirst and I can't put myself
into a woman's shoes or life andto see how they feel.

(16:10):
But I understand that everywoman's dream is to have a baby.
I mean not to be stereotypical,but it's like it's one of the,
it's human nature, it's embeddedin our DNA.
You know, we can fight it andsay no, I'm not like that, all
we want, but it's just in ourDNA, like it's millions of years

(16:36):
of evolution.
And when you have all thesedreams and plans, how did you
think of family at an early age,in your twenties, being in
college and getting yourselfonto this huge journey, and how

(16:56):
did that change?
And how did you adapt to thatonce you were in Michigan, taken
on the practice and thenrealizing you're pregnant?
Can you kind of like explainfor us how that changed for you,
or how you, how you're nowlooking back?
Would you look at yourself andwhat advice you would give a lot

(17:19):
of the women in the audience,or pursuing a career like you
have and their parents or theirloved ones telling them, trying
to discourage them, saying, ah,this is going to be hard, it's
not going to be possible, youcan't do this, you can't do that
, but then here you are and soso then it is possible.

(17:43):
Can you like help us out here,give us your insight into all of
these challenges and maybepunch the naysayers into the
face?

Speaker 2 (17:51):
Absolutely.
So I'm going to unpack kind oftwo different things that you
covered there.
So one of the comments you madewas that it's kind of part of
our DNA as a woman to feel likewe're going to have a baby or we
want to have a baby.
So I'm going to give you kindof a different perspective a
little bit.
And this is very common offemale surgeons.

(18:15):
I found Again, you know, Ifound like I found my tribe, my
group of people thatcommunicated similarly to me,
that understood me.
A lot of women in surgery oftendo not have the strongest desire
to have children.
Like when I was younger I almostfelt like there was something

(18:36):
wrong with me because I wasn'tlike some of my girlfriends who
were like, oh, I want to getmarried, two kids, yada, yada.
That was great to me if ithappened and it worked out well.
But it was not a critical pieceto the puzzle for me and my
younger years to absolutely havechildren and to absolutely get

(19:00):
married.
And actually there's a lot ofwomen out there kind of similar
that you know they have otherwants, desires and goals, that
kind of parallel the family lifebut maybe don't have as strong
of a desire in their youngeryears to actually have children.
So I always had this underlyinglike ooh, is there something

(19:21):
wrong with me that I don'tconstantly think about wanting
to get married and have babies?
Now, lucky for me, I met anamazing man.
I got married he you know mysoulmate.
He's wonderful, and I wanted tohave children with him.
And so it wasn't just that Iwanted to have children, I
wanted to have children.

(19:41):
So it changed.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
You found the right person and now your emotions
change, like I get it.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
And my husband and I have been together for I don't
know 13.
We've known each other for 13,.
Maybe 14 years now I kind oflost track.
We've been married for eightand thank you, and so I think, a
good and an important concept.
And for any female careerdriven women out there, it's

(20:08):
okay if you don't want to havechildren and you don't want to
have a family, but it's alsookay that if that wasn't a goal
for you to change your mind andto have it work while being
career driven you can do both.
But it's important and this issomething that I learned the

(20:29):
hard way is that when you'reused to being a high achiever
and doing everything and justjuggling everything, you part of
the reason you're able to dothat is you just push through
constantly.
I can do this.
I just have to make it work.
I will find the solution whenyou do start a family.
It is the most humblingexperience ever because all of a

(20:53):
sudden, you are caring forother humans and your body is
going through things that you'venever had to deal with.
So I was like operating foreight hours a day and I was
pregnant and you know it waswild, it was nuts but so my
advice is that you do have tomake adjustments.
You can do it.

(21:14):
Don't ever let anybody tell youyou can't do it, but listen to
the people who have done it, notthe people that are telling you
no and haven't been able tofigure it out themselves.
So that's yeah.
And so one thing I will say I'vehad access to a lot of very
strong women in surgical roleswho have juggled family life and

(21:36):
are wonderful mothers and alsocan do the surgical side, can do
the business side.
So I've picked their brains andI know if they can do it, you
know I can do it.
And that's what gave me theconfidence that I could kind of
push forward with everything.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
I love that because I think, no matter how strong we
are in any stage of life or anydecisions we make in our lives,
one of the most important andnot often talked about things is
mentorship.
You know, seeking and I'm nottalking about mentorship of
people that you know, becauseyou know many have maybe their

(22:15):
parents as their mentors.
And if your parents happen tobe the ones that are naysayers,
you know many have grown up infamily where the parents were
naysayers, constantly tellingtheir kids you can't do this,
this is not for you, you know,and they somehow did it anyway.
So their personal, theirpersonality, you know, helped

(22:36):
them to achieve what they wantedto achieve.
But not everybody is thatblessed with having that type A
and strong personality.
And you had both.
You had a type A, strongpersonality, and you had the
right people around you.
And so I think you know, forevery success story that I've
listened to, having done so manypodcasts with successful and

(23:00):
influential people like yourself, is that's been really the
common denominator where ittakes a strong personality with
strong mentorship and that'sreally the secret sauce to
success.
So I love, I love to hear thatevery time it's almost like.
Every time I hear that it'slike it's something new, but

(23:20):
then it isn't.
So for all of the listeners outthere, you know everything has
to come from you first, and thenyou know, surround yourself
with people that believe in youand can put fuel into your fire,
but the fire has to come fromyou.
It's not, it can't be given toyou.

(23:40):
So so then, okay.
So now you are faced with ahuge challenge.
So you had many reasons andopportunities to give up on your
dream and on a goal that youhad set yourself, and so I guess
the best excuse would have beenCOVID right To just drop

(24:04):
everything.
And because it's not somethingthat you created, it's something
like out of a movie, what wasthe movie where there was this
pandemic?

Speaker 2 (24:19):
Was it called pandemic?
I think so.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, it was called pandemic, so yeah, and then.
So you had the greatest excuseand you were pregnant.
That's probably even a betterexcuse.
What makes you pull through?
Like yeah, are you crazy?
Like didn't your husband tellyou chill out, like take a chill
pill?
What are you doing?

Speaker 2 (24:41):
Man, so he knows never to tell me to chill out.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
That puts a chip on your shoulder.
Yeah, chill out, watch me.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Naysayers fuel me.
So, kind of to give a littlebit more of the timeline.
So practice took over thatMarch of 19.
I had my first child inNovember of 19 and I took a two
month maternity leave.
So for those that ownbusinesses this is like a
practice management nightmare.
Right, we're trying to developsome working capital I go and

(25:14):
take a two month break and thentwo and a half months later
we're hit with COVID.
So my son was about three months, three to four months, when
this all ensued and from abusiness standpoint it was
supremely stressful.
You know, I chose not to holdanybody's money hostage, so

(25:37):
anybody that put deposits downdid anything with me, they were
all asking for their money backand I was like, all right, and I
gave it to them and so in thestate of Michigan it was a
mandatory shutdown for allnon-essential services, and it
was two and a half months and Iwas fully aesthetic.
So I was non-essential, I hadno way to generate income and I

(25:58):
had a small child.
So from a business standpointit was terrible.
I was saved by that PPP loanthat took, you know, two months
of paperwork to finally get, butthat saved me from a business
standpoint.
Now, on the flip side of that,the personal side, I would say
that two months shutdown fromthe pandemic was the pivotal

(26:22):
time period that led to medeciding to no longer operate.
So the little, the littlerootlets had kind of been
planted, maybe over the previouscouple of years, but during
that two and a half monthsshutdown that was the first time
in well over a decade where Ifelt this ultimate sense of

(26:43):
freedom from being on call andfrom my phone and from these
subconscious attachments to ourcareer that we don't even
recognize we have.
And it was glorious.
And so it was something where Iwas going on walks with my
family, I would leave my phone,I wasn't checking it, nobody, my

(27:05):
surgical patients weren'tcalling and, in all fairness, my
call was easy compared toeverybody.
I had it easy.
I wasn't taking ER call, I justhad to take surgical call for
my patients.
But that underlying attachmentI recognized hindered my feeling
of freedom, and I didn't findthat acceptable anymore.

(27:27):
And so, the gears returning, Isaid, okay, hold on.
Now You're a surgeon, you justbought a surgical practice, this
is your career.
How do you operate and not takecall?
Well, the reality is you and Iboth know you can't.
You can't operate on people andnot take care of them
afterwards.
So then I looked atalternatives and whether that

(27:50):
would make me happy, but thatwas the critical time period and
it was just important to trustmy gut at that time.
So then, over the next fewmonths, so 2020, over the next
few months and I'm a very visualperson, so whenever I have a
conflict or an issue.
I write things on paper.
When I do a presentation, I'mlike I'm the person writing

(28:12):
everything out on paper witharrows and concepts.
So I made it very simple,pulled out a piece of paper, I
made two columns.
One column looking at, kind ofstepping back from the macro,
the big picture.
I was looking at the micro on aday-to-day basis, on a
week-to-week basis.
What brings me joy when I thinkI had a good day at the end of

(28:33):
the day, what happened?
And I was very surprised tofind that the first three things
I wrote down in that paper hadnothing to do with my job and
nothing to do with my career.
And it was.
Did I get to see my kid in themorning?
Did I see my family?
Did I have time to work out?

(28:54):
That's really important for mymental health is being active.
And then the freedom when Iwasn't on call.
So good, you know, like thedays that you're not on call and
the days that you are on callit's a little bit.
Yes, totally, people don'treally recognize the type of
toll that takes on a human.
We just do it because that'sour job.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh, just psychologically.
Psychologically, I stoppedtaking a call in 2019.
My life changed.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Changed drastically.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
The weekends I was on call.
I had this subconscious anxietybecause I expected my page or
my phone to ring any time, andit just I just couldn't enjoy
sitting.
Yeah, it was exactly.
It's PTSD, yeah.
So people don't realize howhard it is and we just accept it

(29:43):
as life.
So it's interesting when yousay what's the most important
thing to me is like and that'swhat I thought when I dropped
that, I said, you know, it's mefirst, then others.
You know, I have to think of myown health first.
Yes, I have to be healthy firstso I can be there for my family
, so I can be there for mypatients, and I'm going to cut

(30:06):
out everything that's causing mepain because I have one life
and I already sacrificed a lot.
I paid my dues, you did, I letthat, let the younger people do
that, but so take us, yeah, so.
So then you wrote things downand you the broke things down.
It's interesting that you wentfrom micro to macro.

(30:26):
Usually we're told, go frommacro to micro.
So you did it reverse.
You know so for those listeners, maybe you know if you're stuck
, you know start maybe going on.
Reverse and write down themicro issues or wishes before
you get into the macroAbsolutely so little things you
know I I have.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
I love being there in the morning to hang out with my
kids, have a cup of coffee andnot be rushed and those things
make me a better human.
Later in the day it makes me abetter mom when I'm home with my
kids.
It makes me a better physicianfor my patients when I'm not
rushing around doing that.
So I kind of created this idealschedule.
What does this look like onpaper?

(31:05):
And then then I reverseengineered it and I recognized I
don't want to take call anymore, can I not operate?
And then over the next couplemonths, I started to think on
how I could change my businessplan.
How do I change this around?
My sister, who is my practicemanager, really dove into the

(31:26):
numbers and in the state ofMichigan, the cost of oar time
was rising.
I started in 2020 and it justhas escalated since then.
And so your actual profitmargin on surgical patients
versus non-surgical, when you'reultra efficient with your time,
we're like, hey, I think we canmake this work.
It's gonna be scary.

(31:47):
Then, on the other side of itis you know.
I was like what's my identitynow?
Who am I?
I was a surgeon.
What am I doing now?

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, that's, that's a big one for you.
So I want you to delve a littlebit into that, take us into
your head, into your emotions,and I want you to give us the
raw version, because I thinkthis is, this is, I think, the
pivotal moment in this podcastwhere I really want to know from

(32:20):
a personal point, like becauseI'm thinking of myself I love
surgery so much.
To me, the operating room is mysanctuary.

Speaker 2 (32:30):
It's our happy place, right.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Just just a whole ritual.
The beep of the anesthesiamachine, the sound of the such I
mean you name it.
The smell of the cotter I meanyou name it.
It's just the thing that wealways dreamt of all our lives
and careers, and now you'regonna drop that.

Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah.
So I think thankfully,thankfully, part of my
personality is I have theability to kind of push aside
what other people think.
So there is a part of it.
Oh my gosh what.
What's gonna happen when I tellmy colleagues that I'm not

(33:15):
operating?
But a large part of me kind ofdidn't care what people think of
me.
You know, I'm human, so I docare, but I do have the capacity
to just say whatever, I don'tcare what you think.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
What about your?
What about your mentor?

Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yeah, did you what?

Speaker 1 (33:32):
you were.
You afraid what your mentor isgonna say?
I was.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
I was and honestly I've been so busy I don't even
know if he knows.
So it's one of those things youknow well, I know he's
listening to my podcast.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
I know, I know.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
I'll send it to him.
So it's one of those thingswhere I very much cared to the
people who influenced mysurgical career.
And then I unpacked it somemore and the reality is we're
meant to feel like ourprofessional career is this
linear progress.
I decided in my 20s what mycareer was gonna be.

(34:08):
My goodness, when we're in our20s, you're a kid still.
You don't.
You don't really know anythingyet, and I'm making decisions
for the rest of my life, that'syou know.
It's kind of a ridiculousconcept.
So I recognized that I kind ofhave a entrepreneurial mindset
and that is as much a part of myidentity as the surgical

(34:29):
background and my value is notjust based on my title and I'm
allowed.
This is a big thing, becausewe're never meant to feel this
way, especially as surgeons.
Your own health, your ownday-to-day needs we always put

(34:49):
those on the back seat and neverprioritized.
We were never taught how toprioritize them your own health,
your own well-being and so Ihad to shift my mindset.
I mean, my god, when I waspregnant I was operating like a
madwoman, you know, doing allsorts of crazy things and I
could, and it actually wasn'tthat hard.

(35:10):
But that doesn't mean I shouldhave been.
So for the first time I kind oftook a pause and asked myself
what I wanted, determinedexactly what I wanted and
decided I was gonna go there andit was gonna be scary.
And once I make a decision I doit.
So it's kind of like all you'reinterpreting everything and

(35:36):
you're gathering all theinformation and then, once my
brain decides it's gonna dosomething, I'm in.
And then I was in.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
And then, and so now.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
This is what, three years later, three years after I
made the decision.
Yeah, almost exactly actually.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
So in these three and a half years did you do any
surgeries at all?

Speaker 2 (35:58):
So I transitioned from, you know, the full
surgical gamut to minimallyinvasive.
So I was doing awakeliposuction with skin tightening
procedures that were, you know,low risk not as in depth.
I was used to doing these crazy360 degree liposuction cases, so
I just kind of scaledeverything back and it scaled

(36:20):
back my stress significantly.
And once I'd done that once andI saw that I could pivot and
change and remove things from mylife that created stress, I
kept doing it because now I hadmade the biggest decision, the
smaller decisions were mucheasier.
So then I offloaded all thebody stuff I was doing.

(36:41):
I was busy enough with justfacial aesthetics and to give
people a framework, I only am inthe office Wednesday, thursdays
and Fridays from 10 to 4.30.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
And I'm doing so I'm so you're basically off Monday,
tuesday with my kid you got the,you got the four day weekend
every week and no call, and sothat is amazing.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, and it's sound.
You know, if you would havetold, if you would have said
that to anybody years ago, Iwould have said no way.
How do you know?
How do I make that happen?
But with that does comesacrifice.
It's not like you know I Iwrote some very large six figure
numbers on that piece of paper.
I said, okay, if you never hadto take a day of ear, call what,

(37:28):
what potential income are youwilling to let go of to do?

Speaker 1 (37:33):
that.

Speaker 2 (37:34):
And then I wrote another number down, another big
six figure number, that saidokay, if you never had to take
call ever for a surgical patient, what potential revenue are you
willing to lose personally tomake that happen?
And I surprised myself.
These are some big numbers.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Well, well, think of it.
The numbers are just numbers.
They're arbitrarily chosennumbers based on like what
really, like you know, becauseit doesn't matter how much money
you make.
I think it's more important howmuch money you spend.
Yeah, because, at the end ofthe day, the number you make is

(38:11):
irrelevant if you don't have therelative number, which is the
number you spend, correct?
And I think, no matter how muchmoney you make, if you
overspend on stuff that doesn'treally matter, you end up with
no money and stuff is stuff,stuff is stuff, and I think
that's everybody, no matter howmuch money they make, should sit

(38:34):
down and think about it.
And I have had that moment withmyself, catching myself trying
to achieve even more and moreand more.
And then some days it's usuallywell, I'm right on my commute
back home, with other silence,there's no one to you know,

(38:55):
disturb me.
I usually try not to.
Sometimes even I don't evenlisten to any music or anything.
I'm driving, and that's whenthe thoughts come to my mind.
I'd ask myself same, who isinducing that stress to you?
And then the answer is well,you're doing it to yourself.
And so then why are you doingit?

(39:16):
And it's usually because ofmismanagement, and mismanagement
of money.
Mismanagement of life is notabout how much money you didn't
make, or you made is how muchyou wasted, and so that's gonna.
That's kind of.
I've reached this moment in mycareer and life where I think

(39:40):
more about that than about howmuch money I should be making,
because it's easy to get carriedaway.
You know, it's like you always.
You know, I think Rooseveltsaid comparison is the evil of
joy is, you know, there's ahuman thing almost, you know,
kind of like keeping up with theJoneses, and then you have to

(40:01):
slap yourself a couple of timesand say what are you doing like
that?
That's not important.
You know that is just likefiction, that is not real.
So yeah, now I want to use thisconversation and pivot into your
personal growth mindset thatyou know you're.
You know I heard your talk inChicago on the podium at the

(40:25):
InMode conference and you knowit's not surprising that you
were invited as a speaker justbecause of your immense insight.
How do you now balance that?
How do you balance growthmindset with what we just talked
about?
It's almost like an oxymoron,and or does growth mean
something else to you?
I want you to kind of likefirst.

(40:47):
I think before we talk about aword, we have to set the
definition of the word before westart talking about it, because
it kind of means differentthings to different people
absolutely, and I think that'san excellent point.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
You know, if you were to ask us when we are in
residency, what does this mean?
What does growth look like toyou?
And even when I initiallystarted writing down one year,
three year, ten year goals andbecause you're you're, in order
to be successful, you do need toset measurable goals.

(41:23):
You know if you need, if youwant to achieve something, it
needs to be measurable.
However, that doesn't mean thatgrowth is necessarily a
monetary thing or a volume thing.
So in my head, to grow mypractice, I wanted multiple
locations.
I wanted to hit this revenuegoal.

(41:44):
That is how I initiallyperceived growth.
Then, as I was forced to kind ofreconsider what growth meant to
me as I was changing my, mycareer path, to create this
work-life balance, you have toblend them together.
So kind of, when we think abouta growth mindset, to me that

(42:06):
just means how do I play to mypersonal strengths and become
more aware of my blind spots?
So really important concept youwant to put your energy into
what you're good at and whatdrives you and what you have an
emotional connection to, becauseyou will be more successful
ultimately.
Now that doesn't mean that youjust say, hey, my weaknesses or

(42:29):
my blind spots, they are whatthey are, everybody needs to
just deal with them.
No, we still need to be awareof them so we can work on them.
But growth can mean to me it'smore of a knowledge thing rather
than a monetary or volume thing.
So whenever I delve into likegrowth mindset books, it can be

(42:50):
any topic.
So for me, I never had anyfinancial education ever.
I am so far behind as far asyou know investments and
everything.
I'm doing a lot of catch upbecause I was never exposed to
it and so for me in, financialeducation was so critically
important once I started havinga small business.

(43:14):
And now I kick myself.
I'm like, oh my god, I wish I'dknown what a Roth IRA was back
in my 20s.
So right.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
I really think it's something that needs to be
incorporated into high schooleducation at a very early age
100% agree with you yeah, and soso so growth, growth mindset to
you means knowledge, but thenlike it, that's kind of sounds
very abstract so kind of help usout so.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
So you can use that to incorporate different facets
of your life that you want togrow.
So you could ask 20 differentpeople what's important to them,
and it's all going to bedifferent, and if you want to
grow any unique aspect of yourlife, you you kind of have to be
broad in a sense.
So some people they might wantto grow their contributions as a

(44:06):
volunteer because that is whatmakes them feel good.
Other people want to becomefinancially independent and
that's their primary goal rightnow.
And so then, educating yourselfon that process, it's important
, I think, knowing that growthin our career is always going to
be better achieved when youincorporate your personal life.

(44:29):
So me, opening multiplelocations, increasing revenue,
doesn't mean no good.
If I feel like I'm anxious andmad that I'm not home with my
kids, what, what did thatparticular growth do for me?
Nothing.
So I kind of I like the broadgrowth mindset, macro vision

(44:54):
that incorporates both personaland business aspects of things
and then getting into that.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
I love that.
I love that.
I think the personal aspect isnever talked about.
When we talk about growthmindset, we're still that one
human being or one person, itdoesn't matter whether we're at
work or at home.
Growth at work doesn't meananything if you don't grow at
home, and vice versa, and Ithink I love your definition

(45:22):
that it means both, that bothhave to be.
It has to be inclusive.
Now, have you ever thought ofscaling your business where you
don't necessarily have to be atdifferent places yourself, where
you can train others and haveothers run multiple locations
for you?

Speaker 2 (45:41):
so that's a very thought, that's a good question
because unique to me.
When I again going back to thatlist of what gives me energy,
what makes me happy and whatdrains my energy and does not
make me happy, one of the thingthat I have learned in a
leadership position and as aboss is actually the management

(46:02):
side of things.
Although critically important,drains my energy, drains me dry,
it just it's.
It's not what gives me joy.
So I was starting to grow, evenin this non-surgical framework,
and I was getting moreemployees and we were, and I was
thinking in terms ofpotentially having other people

(46:24):
run other areas.
The reality is it's yourbusiness.
You are always going to have tohave a pulse on it, even if you
have amazing practice managers,practice administrators, and so
that was another mindset changethat I recognized about myself.
I didn't get joy out of thatand I was willing to sacrifice

(46:45):
financial growth in that realmso that I didn't have to be a
part of that process.
So I have actually scaled back.
I have less employees, smallerscale.
I just have.
These are my office hours, andI've pivoted and now, as you
know, I'm kind of involved insome more of the speaking
circuit, which I do loveconnecting with people.

(47:07):
On that level I do someconsulting work within the
aesthetic world and I love thisstuff.
I've been approached to doeducational courses and some
other things, so I love thatside of it and so I don't think
I'm, at least in the foreseeablefuture, I may not grow that
portion of my practice becauseI'm happy with it right now.

(47:27):
You know you ask me but you'regonna grow personally.
What's that?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
But you're gonna grow .
Personally, I think educating.
Educating is for me also, justlike you.
It's a huge value to mypersonal growth because I love
human interaction, I love beinginspired and I love inspiring
it's.
I think it keeps us alive.

(47:53):
It's give and take, that's whatkeeps us alive and keeps our
hearts beating.
And you know, I can totallyrelate to what you just said.
And again, going back, growthdoesn't mean only scaling in
your business and making moremoney.
It means, I think, the personalaspect is I would in my, for me

(48:16):
I don't know you tell me what'sfor you.
For me it would be 80% and thenthe financial would be 20%.
For me it would be 80-20 rule,and for some people it's
opposite.
Or, you know, they don't eventhink of the personal aspect,
they just think of the financialaspect.
I mean I have a lot of friendsor even patients that I talked

(48:37):
to.
I mean we're talking aboutmillionaires and billionaires
that they're just miserable.
They always complain.
Every time I talk to them, theycomplain and I'm thinking to
myself, I'm looking at them, I'mthinking, man, this guy or this
gal has so much money, theycould buy anything, but I guess
they can't buy happiness.
And then why is that?
If you make more money than youcan spend, why can't you find a

(49:01):
way to be happy, like what'smissing?
And to me, the answer is Ithink they got the story wrong.
You know, they misinterpretedthe meaning of growth and which
you beautifully just explain.
It's this is.
I totally love that and I thinkI've this is the first time I
hear it from someone else.
It actually hit me as like yeah, she's right.

(49:24):
I have never had, I never hadthought of it myself.
So thank you for that, becauseI just have had a moment with
myself where I'm like that'sabsolutely right.
I needed to hear that because Ifelt it always.
I always try to implement thatand live by that, maybe a little
bit more subconsciously.

(49:44):
But now I think, havinglistened to you, I'm gonna do it
from now on consciously,alright, and yeah, because I
just it totally hit home with meand it's it's funny that
something that makes total senseis like when you hear you like
da, and it keeps gettingforgotten, even in conversation

(50:09):
with the smartest people.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Absolutely, and you know to, to one of your points,
I think for me, I noticed this.
I guess we can call it miseryalmost, among people that we
were striving to be like.
You know, I, I know, I hadnumerous attendings that were

(50:30):
successful surgeons.
They did great but they seemedmiserable.
They came into work, you know,and just every single one of
them, if you ask me and yeah,and it was just, I just knew
early on I didn't want that, Ididn't want to be like that.
And I will say you know, I didhave one of my attendings when I

(50:52):
was in residency and he didfacial plastics and he said you
know some, one of my words ofadvice to you is keep your
personal overhead contained sothat you don't build yourself to
what you think you should beliving.
You know big house, nice cars,all of that so that if you ever

(51:12):
get to the point in your lifewhere you want to change things,
you can do it and I, and thatalways stuck with me.
And so my husband and I and Idon't mind sharing this when we
moved back from California toMichigan, we were looking to
rent before we bought, becausewe were looking in some areas I
wasn't super familiar with inthe rentals were sky high.

(51:35):
It was like what we were payingin California, you know, here
in Michigan, and we said, okay,let's just buy a house and we'll
we'll rent it.
You know it'll be a rentalincome.
And it was not a big house.
I mean, this was under 1500square feet, you know when we
first started and we ended upliving in this house with two
children for about three years,and so I really had to have that

(51:59):
internal battle with myselfwhen I go oh my gosh, I know how
much money I could be making ifI did just take the hospital
job or I just did startoperating again.
And I had to, you know, countermyself and reassure myself and
also talk to my friends againwho are miserable, taking call,
who wish they had that magicswitch to get themselves out of

(52:21):
it, to reassure myself.
It's just stuff.
It's just stuff.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
You know, it's not just don't understand how
someone as young as you, in suchan early stage of her career, I
just don't understand.
I understand, I can't wrap myhead around that how someone as
young as you, so early in hercareer, even had that
self-awareness like this.
This needs an immense amount ofself-awareness and confidence

(52:51):
and discipline.
I mean, like, just tell me alittle bit about your childhood
and where the people thatinspired you, just real quick,
because I want to know is it's agift you were born with or did
you have people around you whereyou saw that and then you
became that?
Who inspired you?
And or both, like just realquick, because it doesn't make

(53:14):
sense for you to have thatamount of insight in yourself
and in life.
You have that perspective of it.
You talk like someone that is86 years old and has lived life
and have made hundred mistakesand learned from them and now
sharing it with us.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
That's how you sound like so I it's kind of funny
that you say that I jokingly,even in my teens and twenties,
used to say that.
I'm like a crabby 60 year oldman stuck in a young female
pocket, and so I kind of alwaysfelt like I had a slightly
different perspective just onthings in general.

(53:52):
So kind of my childhood I wouldsay so.
But neither of my parents wentto college.
There's no physicians in myfamily.
We did live in a city that manyof my friends were wealthy or,
you know, upper middle class.
We were not, but I was a partof a very good educational

(54:14):
system.
So it was kind of thisinteresting dynamic where I saw
a lot of people who had achievedsuccess and I didn't.
I didn't go without, you know,I certainly didn't live in an
unsafe area or anything likethat, so I don't want to paint
that picture, but we.
It was humble, I came fromhumble beginnings but I saw at a

(54:37):
very early age that, you know,sometimes money isn't everything
, I guess is it easy to put it?

Speaker 1 (54:47):
I'm observant, I guess is one of my is one of my.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
I'm hardwired to be observant and I think part of
that is just I came out of thewomb that way and then I was
shaped so what?

Speaker 1 (55:04):
what did you see?
So, yeah, so what did you seethat made you believe money is
not everything at so early?
Because usually if you are comefrom humble beginnings and
those people around you that aresuper successful, drive
beautiful cars, live in bighomes, it makes you want that.
And so tell me, it just doesn'tmake sense like how you would,

(55:27):
so early in your life as ateenager, realize money is not
everything.
Where all my teenagers talkabout is like these super cars,
these youtubers that make somuch money.
Like how, like tell?

Speaker 2 (55:40):
me now, don't get me wrong.
I have to.
I have to start with.
I definitely still wanted money.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
You know I was I wasn't that you know Zen and I
definitely, just you justhumanized, yeah, I definitely
wanted money, I wanted to besuccessful.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
I was ultra driven, but I thought the undercurrent
in some of it and I thinksometimes when you don't have
something and you want something, you put it on a pedestal and
yeah.
I I thankfully knew a lot ofpeople's stories that maybe came

(56:17):
from wealthy families or, youknow, we're in different
situations and the reality iswe're all human.
We all have difficulties andtroubles and issues, and money
never solves those things reallyit does.
Now I do think there's a lot tobe said.

(56:38):
When you don't feel like you'rebeing shackled because of your
lack of money, you know youmight be working in a situation
you don't want to be in.
There's a lot of freedom tothat and that's what I I'm
working to achieve.
But I knew at an early age thatthere's always another side to
things.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Everything you know that's amazing, this success,
that's amazing all these things.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
So I was.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
I was gifted, I guess , with the ability to observe
and pay attention well, I thinkself-awareness is a huge thing
for people to be able to makethe right decisions, because
every decision we make isrelative to ourselves, our
personality, what gets us going.

(57:22):
We can't take someone else'sideals or ideology and then live
by that because it might notmake us happy.
So I think you can consideryourself extremely lucky to have
such a immense amount ofself-awareness, or had it at
such an early stage in your lifeand now carrying it on in your
life now.

(57:43):
So no another thing yes, I meanthis is.
This is key.
I think this is the one key tosuccess is to have
self-awareness.
I really do agree.
You need to know where you are,to know how to get where you
want to get at.
You know you need to have apath and without self-awareness

(58:03):
you can't even create a path.
I agree and that's the onething I think.
If everyone has a hard look ina mirror and asked themselves
you know who are you and what doyou want, and then go from
there, I think everyone willfigure out what best is for them
having good sounding boards too, I think of course you know.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
I like the pen to paper, write things down so you
can visualize it kind of workthrough it, but also having
people in your life or you'relike this is how I'm feeling
about this yeah this is where Iwant to go and just kind of have
somebody else who can removethemselves from your process and
give you a bird's-eye view ofit, just to give you that little

(58:50):
giddy up in your step,absolutely.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
That's why I love to be around successful and smart
people and people that areauthentic and genuine, because
they will tell you and they canreally change the trajectory of
your entire life and careerbecause of their experience,
their honesty and their candor,and so I 100% agree with you

(59:14):
surround yourself with thosepeople and listen to your heart
and let the rest be history andand then just enjoy the journey.
Now we're gonna pivot now intothe a little bit of aesthetics
here.
Now you made that decision.
I feel in the perfect time, ata perfect storm, I would say, in

(59:39):
the aesthetic industry.
By that I mean today, more thanany time in history,
non-surgical procedures aregaining more and more and more
popularity.
I mean, just look at all thesemed spots that are popping up,
all these aesthetic nurses,injectors that are super

(01:00:01):
successful.
I mean it.
They created a whole industryand I feel like you made that
decision to pivot from surgicalinto non-surgical during a
perfect storm, which speaks alsoto your success.
But you are unique in that, thatis, you're bringing it with an
inside of a surgeon, meaningsomeone that has not only

(01:00:24):
studied anatomy inside out,actually dissected anatomy
inside out, so you have such amore valuable context than, for
example, an injector who thinksthey understand.
You know, with all due respect,I mean this is nothing.
I have injectors.
They're very good friends,family members, I respect them

(01:00:45):
highly, but it's comparingsomeone that is flying a single
engine versus someone that isflown a 747 every day and now is
supposed to navigate through alittle cloudy turbulence.
It's just much easier.
But you have also more insightin the aging process, in the

(01:01:06):
anatomy, physiology, and so I'mpretty sure that's
subconsciously or consciously,it's what makes you an expert
and that's why you're so soughtafter.
Now for you, what is yourperspective on the longevity in
the effectiveness, effectivenesson the treatments that you are

(01:01:26):
are rendering, and and how doyou consult your patients and
how do you for yourself, createthis ethical and more moral
barrier not to over treatsomeone with non-surgical
modalities or devices ortreatments and really do what's

(01:01:47):
right and kind of navigate thislike devil and the angel, doing
the right thing versus being aprofit center.
And so how do you do that?
How do you every day tacklethat?
I want, I want the audience tolearn a little bit about what's
what, the thought process, andalso your values and how you

(01:02:11):
keep yourself and the patientshonest yeah, good question.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
So when I first took over the business, I think it's
very easy I so I love thestepping back and looking at
numbers and that that part ofthe business side.
But when it came to me being ina room with somebody and, you
know, being that business personterrible at it, I knew that
wasn't my thing.
What I'm good at is being verygenuine and objective with my

(01:02:40):
assessments and very truthfulwith my recommendations, and so
I just learned very early in theprocess don't deviate from that
.
You'll sleep at night, youwon't feel you know bad in any
way.
If that person was my mom, mysister, a family member, what
would my recommendation be foryou?

(01:03:00):
So I often have people who comein, they're willing to give me,
say, oh, I want face tight.
I saw it.
And if I think and they'reready to give me their money,
and if I don't think they're agood candidate, I say listen,
you're just not a greatcandidate.
You're gonna give me this money.
You're not gonna be happy andwe're both not gonna be happy
and, for better or for worse,I'm a prideful person.

(01:03:20):
I'm a very results orientedindividual and if I don't think,
I'm just gonna knock it out ofthe park with whatever service
I'm providing.
I don't want to do it becauseit stresses me out when I, when
I don't deliver something.
That's amazing.
So I just made it simple formyself.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
I am there as a provider, I have a good eye, I
have an artistic eye, I'm verygood at assessing and being able
to convey what the expectedresults are, and I just don't
deviate from that so that I lovethat because that's how I
practice and and that's kind offor me, what makes me happy, you

(01:04:03):
know, knowing that I'm doingthe right thing, even though I
told no to a patient that cameand said I want this and I'm
like this is not for you, whichis not only empowering but also
make sure that at the end of theday, we do that based on
results.
You know, like you, I treat mypatients result oriented.

(01:04:23):
That's my whole philosophy.
And it's funny because as soonas I, as you were saying these
things, I was kind of likelooking at you, I was like she
totally doesn't look likesomeone that provides non
surgical treatments.
Because normally when you, whenI, you can immediately tell
because most people orpractitioners or doctors that

(01:04:47):
provide non-circuit treatments,you kind of see they're over
treated themselves.
You know their lips are too big, the cheekbones are too
overfilled, they over both tuxthemselves, like their smile or
facial facial muscles are notmoving like they're supposed to.
Like you know, something is offand I don't write any of that

(01:05:10):
in you.
So, like if I was a patient, Icame to you, I would like
totally trust you.
I'm like, whatever you say, Itrust you because when I look at
you, you don't look overtreated and you look totally
normal.
And you know what I'm talkingabout.
Right, absolutely and I see alot of these injectors.
There are like, if I seeinjectors, I'm all.

(01:05:30):
Their cheeks are overblown, thelips are overblown.
When they smile, you know theirmentalism not even properly.
Their smiles are crooked.
It's almost like theyoverfilled their chin.
They don't even know the jowls,they don't even know and that's
what I'm getting at.
They don't even know theyactually think they think they
look amazing and they're gonnado the same thing they did to

(01:05:54):
themselves to their patients,because not because they're
dishonest I don't know whatthey're doing, it's just they.
They believe that's the lookand I call it doctor or
practitioner dysmorphia.
So there's one thing is likethat patient dysmorphia, I call
it doctor dysmorphia and Italked a lot about this and
because I asked myself aquestion a lot.

(01:06:14):
It's like how would someonerender these over treatments?
Like why?
Why do they think it's right?
I mean, I thought they'redishonest people, I thought
they're people that are just outfor money.
And then I came to realizationwhen I looked at them.
I'm like they look back atthemselves.
So it can't be money.
It's like they completely their, their view of the norm of

(01:06:39):
beauty is completely distorted.
It has changed and they haven'tnoticed.
And that starts with, and I gotthe idea from patient
dysmorphia, from pay patientscoming to me wanting more
fillers.
I'm like no, it's not going tolook good.
They're like yeah, but theeffect is gone.
I'm like no.
So I had to show them therebefore pictures from five years

(01:06:59):
ago and then they looked at itand then they realized, oh my
god, I looked so different.
I'm like that's exactly whatI'm talking about.
If I inject more, you evengoing to look worse, and that's
the dysmorphia that we know.
But then the one thing that Ithink we don't know, that we've
also because we're humans, we'resubject to, is doctor

(01:07:21):
dysmorphia.
What if we forget how normal issupposed to look, what beauty
is supposed to look like, whatfacial harmony actually means
today?
Because of a lot of thesestudies that were unfortunately
unfortunately, they're, you know, sub even the authors of the

(01:07:43):
study.
They're subject to thesecognitive biases.
Yes, they completely changedthe norm of aesthetics and
beauty because of the cognitivebias, just to justify why they
should inject, why they thinkthey can lift the face with
fillers, instead ofunderstanding the physiology
behind is.
They're just over volumizing.

(01:08:03):
That's why it looks like it'slifted.
It's not an actual lift.
How do you navigate that in yourpractice, with your patients
that come to you, they want morefillers and you realize if you
did that they wouldn't look good.
And I love the fact that yousaid you have a lot of pride in
what you do, and I totallyresonate with that and I think
that's what keeps you safe andimmune from doctor dysmorphia is

(01:08:27):
your pride.
That doesn't let you fall intothat trap, because there is, no
matter what you think.
Anyone that runs a businesssomehow is biased and somehow
wants to increase profit andrevenue and then tries to
justify it with oh no, it looksgood, that's.
You know.
Such and such studies said itdoes that, so it must be true.

(01:08:48):
How do you do that?

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
Yeah.
So there's what I will say.
Kind of every area of thecountry and even sub pockets
within each state almost havedifferent aesthetics that people
that you start to see pop upPeople specifically come to me

(01:09:13):
for that very naturalrejuvenation.
So it was.
It was very interesting when Idid my cosmetic surgery training
in California and I came backto Michigan and people in
California, yeah, totallydifferent world and people
thought oh, you know, are therestandards higher in California?

(01:09:33):
I argue that the Midwest has wayhigher expectations, because
they want to get theirprocedures never look like they
ever had anything done, don'thave a recovery, you know?
No, they don't want theirfriends to know.
So the standard to me is muchhigher, and often people come to
me because of that.

(01:09:54):
That is what their goal is, notas what they're looking for,
and so in order to achieve that,I think there's a couple of
things that have to happen.
Like you mentioned, we have afacial plastics background.
We understand anatomy a littlebit different than somebody who
took a couple courses.
Nothing personal, it just iswhat it is.

Speaker 1 (01:10:12):
You know if you've played it.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
If you don't facial fractures or anything.
I'm not conceptualizing wherethe nerves are.
I have seen them.
I've seen the vessels, I knowwhat fat pets look like.
It's just a different ball game.
The other layer to that, andthis is something you can't
teach and it's you know it.
I wish it was.

(01:10:35):
It's not always.
There has to be an artistic andinherent artistic ability to
the provider.
You could be, and I tell peopleall the time.
There's some nurse injectorsthat are Great.
I mean, they have like a reallygood artistic eye.
There's some plastic surgeonsare amazing.
Surgeons have no right puttingfiller in people's faces because

(01:10:57):
it's not good and you just haveto know where your strengths
are.
And when I was in fellowship Idid not want to be put in that
filler room.
I was like I am a surgeon, I amnot doing filler and I was not
excited about it.
Then I started doing it moreand I realized what I could do

(01:11:19):
with it in a very natural,rejuvenating manner.
So you discovered your artistand I tell people my world
exists in half millimeters andit's always been that way.
You know I'm it's like an OCDtendency.
I can walk into a room.
I know when a pictures off by amillimeter over here, and so
that part comes easy to me.
I can look at a Drives me nuts.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
If I see a picture, it drives me nuts same and so
that helps you.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
You know, when you're doing your rhinoplasty is and
you're doing filler and you'redoing these techniques, it makes
it easier to for you to do yourjob.
And if people don't have thatskill, it just cannot be taught,
unfortunately.
And I would say, you know, Ijokingly say, out of 10 people
who get filler, we always noticethe five that got the bad

(01:12:09):
filler, not the five that gotthe good filler, and so we see a
lot of that walking around andI agree with you, I don't think
they're being Necessarily moneyhungry.
They just don't realize thatthey're not providing a good
result yeah, I think it's theartistic eye and yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:30):
And the thing is, you know there is a I don't know if
you're familiar with thedunning Krueger effect.
Done you so, dunning andKrueger with social psychologist
from Cornell who described that?
It's Usually, you know, if youdon't know what you don't know,

(01:12:50):
and when you don't know what youdon't know, especially, the
less you know, the moreconfident you are.
You think you know everything,and I think that's the problem
with a lot of these new Doctorsand injectors getting into this
business.
They have taken a course andnow they think they're masters

(01:13:11):
and they stop learning after thefirst year because they already
consider themselves experts andthey their whole views
completely distorted.
And also, interestingly,they're the loudest.
They're the ones who speakloudest because of their
confidence, yeah, and they kindof Guide the whole narrative
where the most experienced onesare just quiet, sit back, just

(01:13:32):
do their own work.
They even assume that everybodyknows what they know and so
they don't go out and teach, sowhich they should be the ones
going out there actuallyteaching, as opposed to the
other group.
So that's kind of fascinatingand I try to integrate that as
one of the first teaching pointswhen I teach my fellows I make

(01:13:55):
familiar with that, so theyStart a journey with more high
degree of self awareness,realizing it's like, okay, let's
stand a carpet here and let'stake the slow and let's just
figure out.
Learn first and and I thinkthat's the part that kind of
gets lost in whenever yourtraining is a very short amount
of time, which doesn't give youenough context to learn more

(01:14:21):
every day, as opposed to justmore.
I guess the learning in thoseareas is more technique oriented
Use this technique versusthat's that technique as opposed
to okay, let's learn more aboutthe physiology.
What actually happens fiveyears, ten years from now, after
you injected fillers?
And then, based on that, howshould we treat the patients

(01:14:43):
today?
Looking at five or ten years,instead of assuming all the
filler disappears after a year,which we know, it doesn't right.
And so how do you?
How do you guide theseconversations with your patients
?
And then, what is your strategy?
Focusing on non surgicalmethods, what's your philosophy
when you tackle anti aging?

(01:15:05):
Yeah, when you, when you haveto choose between volume and
tightening, how do you do that?
How do you determine that?

Speaker 2 (01:15:13):
Good question.
So I and I educate during everysingle consultation.
So, even if you're coming to mefor Botox, you will get a
thirty minute consultation andwe will talk about the
rejuvenation process, and I liketo break it up into three
pillars of rejuvenation.
So, and in part of our facialplastics.

(01:15:34):
We know there's a fourthcomponent in there, but yeah,
really breaking it down intothree.
So the superficial skin,addressing superficial skin,
fine lines, wrinkles, poor size,sun damage, etc.
That's one umbrella Forrejuvenation.
The next one is skin tighteningand, as we know, that's not just

(01:15:55):
the superficial skin, is thestructures under the skin that
play into quote, laxity.
And then the third component isvolume loss, and I love getting
visual with people.
I break out the picture of thefacial fat pads, explain how,
when we lose volume, you know,we start to deflate a bit, we
get separation fat pads andthat's where we get shadows.

(01:16:15):
So, okay, now my patientsunderstand.
These are the three conceptsthat I'm working with in.
What do I have in my arsenal,from a non surgical standpoint,
that I can use to address eachof these?
My framework is not an eitheror it's not a volume versus skin
tightening, versus this it's.
We need to do something in eachof these, regardless of whether

(01:16:37):
in your thirties or seventies,so that we get a more natural
co-op, harmonious rejuvenation,and that's when I started
playing with.
That is when my results justwere so much better.
So Ask somebody in theirthirties barely still in their
thirties skin tightening isstill important.

Speaker 1 (01:16:57):
It's still I wouldn't be able to tell so.

Speaker 2 (01:17:00):
I love it and I tell people listen, I didn't wake up
like this.
I use all of the sametreatments that I'm recommending
to everybody else so.
From skin tightening from a nonsurgical standpoint, that's our
energy based treatments.
Then when you pair that withvolume replacement which the
reality is starts in our latetwenties and early thirties that
helps with the shadowingeffects.

(01:17:22):
So in women often times we getthe tear trough deformity, a
little deflation.
Here you know be my 10 comeinto play.
You know my, my marathonrunners.
You know that's quite thevolume replacement job there and
I don't throw the kitchen sinkat them all at one time.
Never recommend.
So I like starting with skintightening first, or

(01:17:43):
rejuvenating the skin so thatthe skin envelope is nice and
healthy, then delving in to thevolume replacement and a lot of
people come in my office saying,listen, you're never putting
filler Botox in my face, ever.
But when they learn to trust meand then I have their best
interests in mind Then throughthese other treatments they

(01:18:04):
understand, okay, this is whatshe stands for.
And so often times I can getthem a better result and they
have gained their trust and wekind of work through that.
Part of the unique part of myprocess is having the surgical
background.
I talked to them about surgery,about those options.
So often times people come tome for jawline and chin concerns

(01:18:25):
you know Lack city in thejawline or a double chin.
I walk them through what a faceand neck lift result is and I
tell them I don't offer that.
If they are a face and neck liftcandidate, I tell them straight
up you are a face and neck liftcandidate, this is what I have
to offer you from a non-surgicalstandpoint and this is your
expected results.

(01:18:45):
Some people say you know what Iam.
I think I'm looking for thatface and neck lift tightening.
I refer them out.
I want them to know everysingle one of their options,
even if I don't offer it, and Ithink that what that's what
makes my process a little bitmore powerful is because they
know they're getting a totallycomprehensive consultation and
recommendation.

Speaker 1 (01:19:07):
I think, with anything we do, trust is the
biggest thing, and a lot ofpatients come to us with a lot
of fear, a lot of distrust,distrust in the whole industry
as a whole because, like I said,I always tell my patients is
that the reason why they'refearful, because they only see

(01:19:27):
the bad results, because thegood results they don't even
know that they're based ontreatments.
It's not like these people done, just reverse age.
Something was done which is sodone artistically and
appropriately that they can'ttell.
So there is this bias that theyhave and I think it's important

(01:19:48):
to really mention that to thembecause it makes them think, and
every time I say that, they sitback and think well, yeah, I
guess it makes sense, you'reright, I never consider it that
way.
I'm like well, yeah, it's likewith anything else.
So now, how do you?
Now you talked a little bitabout the concept of beauty,
that it obviously varies inMichigan and the Great Lakes

(01:20:09):
area, which is actually verysimilar to us here in the East
Coast and the Washington DC areaand in Germany, where I grew up
.
In Europe in general,especially northern and central
Europe is more conservative, andthen further you go to the
southern European countries,that gets a little more extreme.
So it's interesting that to seethat the concept of beauty

(01:20:31):
varies, which is fine, you know,I think people have to feel
good about themselves, have tofeel good within their community
, and we don't have tonecessarily convince them of
anything.
I think one of the things thatwe should do and I love how you
practice is to really offer themwhat makes them happy, what

(01:20:53):
within the ethical and moralboundaries that you practice to,
to guide them and I thinkthey're lucky to have you as a
consultant.
I mean, you and I absolutelyit's so refreshing to see
someone else that practices thesame way, has the same values,
because I don't think peopleknow enough about people like

(01:21:17):
you that they are out there.
They just have to find them.
Find them now.
How do you, other than insideyour practice, how do you
communicate who you are, withthe art, with your, with people
out there?
I mean, do you have a socialmedia presence?
Do you spend some time on there?
And, if so, how and what do youdo?

(01:21:38):
I know you told me Before thepodcast that your fellowship
director made sure that you geton that flag and and how's that
going?

Speaker 2 (01:21:50):
yes, so Good question .
I think it's kind of funny.
I so to relay that story again.
When I got out to my fellowshipin California, I did not have
an Instagram account.
I was not very active onFacebook and I program which is
crazy as a millennial right.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
Yeah, you know, I was just very.

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):
I guess I was kind of anti for a while and but
understanding that it's aplatform to convey information.
You know, when I changed myperspective on what I was using
it for, it was different becauseI kind of felt like we, we how
did that happen?
We all do, I do it, how did?

Speaker 1 (01:22:31):
that happen because you are, you are anti, so
meaning, yeah, but you have thisjudgment.
I want to really unpack that.
You had this police systemabout social media, what it
actually means, and you wereobviously judging it like we all
judge things based on lack ofperspective or knowledge about
it.
That's like why politicians,you know, have us like puppets.

(01:22:54):
And they're the puppeteersbecause they know how the human
brain works, yes, and soobviously the environment you
live in and people that werearound you, obviously they
influence us.
There's been studies on it.
It's a tripartite, you know,rule of influence science and
influence that is set by peoplethat are around you your parents

(01:23:17):
and then your friends and theyinfluence your beliefs that you
have.
So, and then also fear ofjudgment, right, so tell me a
little bit about why you feltthe way you felt about social
media and then what made youchange that belief.

Speaker 2 (01:23:33):
I think, going into it.
I think the overriding conceptthat made me feel a little,
maybe become a little bit of anaysayer was and I still feel
this way, even about myself Ithink we spent too much time on
it.
In general, I think sometimeswe forget to put the phone down

(01:23:55):
and experience what's happeningright in front of us.
So that was kind of my a littlebit of what led to me feeling
like an aster going into it.
Now Dr Hi-Avi he was likelisten, you're going into
cosmetics, you need an Instagramaccount, like yesterday.

Speaker 1 (01:24:13):
Oh, you didn't even have an Instagram account, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:24:15):
I didn't even have one.
So yeah, I know, and so Ibegrudgingly kind of started one
.
Now I have three.
Now I have a personal one, I'vegot my business one, and then
I've got my.
Yes, and I'm always slow toenter into to social media,

(01:24:36):
things like I literally juststarted a tick tock account,
like like a couple of weeks ago.
I'm getting there, I'm slow andyou're lucky.

Speaker 1 (01:24:45):
You're lucky, you don't have to dance on tick tock
anymore, because when I gotinto tick tock you have to dance
.

Speaker 2 (01:24:50):
That was another part .
I was like, listen, I wastalking to my marketing people.
I'm like I'm not that person,I'm not going to create that
content, I'm not going to bedancing around.
This is not my vibe.
You know, I'm super direct, I'man informational person.
So now I think I'm finding away to convey information that
feels like me, that does bringsome people value.

(01:25:14):
So a part of it is it is a timeissue, I'm having you know I I
was listening to another one ofyour podcasts I think it was
with Dr Nyak, about you know howwe have issues letting other
people manage our social mediaaccounts versus us managing it
ourselves, and that was always ahiccup for me, because I want
absolute control of the contentI put out because it's important

(01:25:36):
to me.

Speaker 1 (01:25:37):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
Now I'm trying to figure out ways that I can
incorporate into my schedule andstill deliver high end content
that I feel represents me and isgenuine.
So I'm getting there.
I'm probably slow to the game,I think you know I just started.
A tick tock account tells yousomething.
But my patients and I love mypatients they like Dr West, are

(01:26:02):
you doing anything to talk oryou should be doing this, you
know?
And so I love that.
They give me input and they'resuper supportive and I use our
ideas.
And I just had an acutitepatient on Thursday and she's
Younger and she said to me youknow what?
I cannot find videos of the,the actual process like what it

(01:26:26):
looked like.
And I went on YouTube and I sawI don't know who it was,
somebody that was like superaggressive With doing something
and she's in.
It freaked her out.
So she volunteered to let mevideotape myself Walk in the

(01:26:49):
park.
Let's put this out there.
So she's very gracious and so Iappreciate people like that.
We're willing to allow us touse them to help other people
that are in their shoes arelooking at getting these
procedures.
They understand what they'rethey're getting into, so yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
I think it's a very important that's.
You know, I told you before likewe're more of a media company,
first, you know, trying tocommunicate with our audience
from an educational standpointand ethical standpoint, because
there's so much information outthere, and then If more of you
are out there putting outinformation, it weighs against a

(01:27:30):
lot of the other misinformationthat's out there and I think we
have a responsibility.
I look at it as we have aresponsibility to Educate the
public, just because they needto be enough diverse information
out there so that the viewercan judge for themselves, can

(01:27:52):
see both sides and then make ajudgment or enable them to ask
the right questions.
And I think for us that's anobligation, just like we have an
obligation To you Within theinformed consent before we do
any procedures on patients, toinform them about the benefits
and you know and the risks.

(01:28:14):
Now, with more, did you work inwith any social media
influencers and and if not, whatdo you think of influencers
today setting certain trendsthat makes Patients come to you
wanting those treatments andReally being dead set on wanting

(01:28:38):
a certain look, and how do youhave that conversation with them
?
Yeah, what do you agree ordisagree?

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
So I feel super comfortable telling people no.
I think it served me well.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
Thankfully, my demo aren't you afraid that?
Aren't you afraid that they'regonna go somewhere else and fall
into another trap?
I educate and how do you so?

Speaker 2 (01:29:01):
I always educate on my why is behind things.
So if I say you know, I thinkthat filler is a really good
example, the whole Phenomenathat has surrounded Lit filler I
kind of.
I have noticed recently it'salmost kind of to one of your

(01:29:23):
points this dysmorphia that'sdeveloped over the last five to
ten years and women and men whoget lit filler and then they
notice a little bit of it hasdissolved, or maybe a little bit
it has migrated.
They instantly think that theyneed more.
I refuse now To go intosomebody else's lit filler and

(01:29:43):
touch it up.
It's usually a hot mess and Idon't want my results tied to
that.
And so and I tell them I saylisten, I think some of your
filler might not be in theappropriate place.
That could create issues foryou long term.
The best thing that I can dofor you is to dissolve this and
start clean.
I can get you a better resultBecause of that and you will

(01:30:03):
have a better result over thenext two years because of that.
Just about everybody has saidokay eventually.
But it is and I don't take thislightly dissolving lit filler.
We think, like you know, no bigdeal it's.
You're dissolving filler,you're doing something good for
your patient.
Dissolving lit filler insomebody that has a little bit

(01:30:25):
of that dysmorphia which is alot of patients it is
psychologically traumatizing.
I have probably had five to tenpeople in the last ten years
where it was so traumatizingwhen I dissolved it that they
didn't come back for a while.
They were so scared to gothrough that process again and I

(01:30:51):
we leaned into the discussionwhen they came back and we
called me, checked up on them.
It was just so psychologicallydisturbing once their lips were
dissolved that that needs to betaken into consideration and
anybody doing lip filler needsto have that understanding.
When people are asking for more, they don't see what we see.

(01:31:11):
So you know I equate.
It is kind of like women whohave a breast implant deflation.
It's really, reallytraumatizing.
They feel disfigured verydifficult process until you can
replace it.
It's very similar to that andthey often just don't see it.
Sometimes they don't even seeit until you show them the

(01:31:32):
before and afters.
So it's like this is what youlook like before, here's what
you look like when we dissolveit and here's what it looks like
when you replace it.
And it's also very frighteningto me.
I've done a lot of fillerdissolving over the years and
when you, when I realize wherethis filler is being injected in
their face, I'm just like, ohmy gosh, it's like they were so

(01:31:54):
deep in the muscle and, and it'sjust, it's a little bit
disturbing and it's veryunregulated right now in the
United States.
So Patients need to educatethemselves and we need to be
there to educate them.
And, kind of going back to youroriginal question, in the
consultation I feel reallycomfortable saying no and I
explain why and I always letthem know what I can offer them.

Speaker 1 (01:32:16):
So when you say unregulated, how would you like
to see that?
I know it's hard to Come upwith something, but how do you
think we could do a better jobregulating this?
To regulate who can inject, whocannot inject yeah.
And then how do you think theaesthetic business world is
going to think about that?

(01:32:37):
Yeah, or even I think I'll letthat happen.
I mean, these pharmaceuticalcompanies are so influential do
you think they even gonna letthat happen?

Speaker 2 (01:32:46):
So I've thought a lot about this in recent years and
I don't know the answer, theright answer, but I do know that
something needs to happen.
That is, a minimum requirementof certification.
And then, in addition to that,some baseline gold standard

(01:33:09):
training, and it cannot be acouple of weekend courses.
It's just not okay.
You know, for a frame ofreference, over the course of my
residency and fellowship Iprobably took, out of my own
free will, 8 to 10 courses and Istill didn't feel comfortable,
like feeling like I was doingamazing.

(01:33:32):
It took additional work and then, after your first couple of
years of injecting, now I feelsuper solid and even when I felt
like I could have used you know, I just needed more experience
I was still probably better thanthe majority of the people out
there injecting.
So I don't know what it wouldlook like and I guesstimate that

(01:33:57):
it would be state by state asit currently is, because we're
not going to change the entiresystem.
There needs to be baselinecertification, safety and
ongoing educational requirements.
I caught wind of something inMichigan I think it was either
last year or two summers agowhere they were trying to push
something legislative and I onlysaw part of the bill that said

(01:34:20):
that only NPs, pas andphysicians were going to be able
to inject filler, which wouldhave rocked the Michigan
business circuit, because mostof these places are being
injected by nurses who just havea physician who's signing off
on the filler purchase.
So I don't know that it'snecessarily fair to take

(01:34:41):
somebody who's been injectingfor 15 years and tell them all
of a sudden now you can't, eventhough they might even be better
than the physician down theroad.

Speaker 1 (01:34:50):
Right, you have to close the business.
That's the worst like what arethey going to do?
Is they're going to go bankrupt?

Speaker 2 (01:34:57):
Right and that's not appropriate, but I think
starting by setting somebaseline standards from a safety
standpoint is very, veryimportant and I think if enough
bad outcomes are reported to thelicensing, boards some change
will happen, but a lot of peopledon't record things.

Speaker 1 (01:35:19):
Yeah, that's the thing, and I don't know how
that's going to change.
To be honest, I think what canchange, though, is that
continuous studies in the fielddemystifying certain ways that
we treat patients today andquestioning the studies that are
used as landmark studies tojustify why we should be

(01:35:42):
injecting more filler than weare supposed to, and I think a
lot of more studies and sciencecan actually help us more than
like some legal thing or somelegal changes that would lead to

(01:36:03):
a lot of litigations andpolitical fights, etc.
I think, at the end of the day,if we let science talk,
patients are smart, they'regoing to get educated, and if
someone knows sugar is not goodfor you guess what?
They're going to eat less candyand they're going to buy less
candy.
And if you're a candy store,well, it is what it is right.

(01:36:26):
You know people are more healthconscious nowadays, so a lot of
these soda companies like CocaCola, their you know their
profits are going down justbecause we live more health
conscious.
It's not the 80s anymore, and Ithink science always prevails,
knowledge always prevails, and Ithink it's our obligation to
educate them.

(01:36:47):
So, with within that, and whatis your goal now for the next,
as we're coming towards the end.
I know we've been talking foran hour and a half, but I
remember I told you I don't knowhow long the podcast is going
to be.
Where do you see the?
You know your future.
Are you going to write this outor do you have a master plan,

(01:37:08):
something inside Like what iswhat is Dr West planning and
doing In the next I would saythree quarters of your career?
This is just the first quarterOkay.

Speaker 2 (01:37:23):
So one thing I can tell you confidently is that I
will probably make multiplecareer changes and I don't know
the exact timeline, but I'velearned that my brain kind of
pivots on this like three tofive year consistent timeframe,

(01:37:44):
and I always thought that wasbecause, you know, undergrad was
four years and medical schoolwas four years and then our
residencies are five to sixyears.
But I have that internally.
I will likely continue doingthe, the non-surgical aesthetic
piece, for a long time, but Iview that as kind of a platform

(01:38:08):
from which other things aregoing to culminate.
So, you know, as my kids getolder and if I decide I want to
start working more, I don'tthink I'm going to expand the
practice, I think I'm going todive into other things, trusting
my gut.
What's that?

Speaker 1 (01:38:25):
Which are other things as.

Speaker 2 (01:38:28):
I don't know yet.
I have a feeling there's goingto be an educational component
to it.
I don't know what it looks likeyet, and I'm good with that not
knowing exactly what it lookslike yet, because, like
everything, else in my career.
Organically, theseopportunities come into my
universe, into my orbit, and Ihave learned to pay attention to

(01:38:48):
those opportunities and seewhat can come from them so.
I am confident that I'll know itwhen I see it.
I anticipate somethingeducational.
I have a feeling at some pointbeyond seven years from now that
I'll probably be dipping mytoes into.
So, to back it up, I lovecreating things.

(01:39:10):
I like the process of solving aproblem or kind of and I think
labeling it a problem isn't evencorrect Finding a solution for
something, and I have a feeling.

Speaker 1 (01:39:23):
I will.
A challenge that's probably achallenge, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:39:26):
And I have a feeling I will likely, beyond seven
years from now, find myself in aposition that is totally
outside of aesthetic medicine,and that this entire journey was
practice as a small businessowner, entrepreneur, getting
involved in some other platformslike speaking engagements,
consulting, etc.
That will help me in this otherarena, and I don't know what it

(01:39:49):
is yet that's exciting, we'llhave a discussion in seven years
and we'll see where we're at.

Speaker 1 (01:39:53):
Yeah, that's exciting .
I think part of the excitementof life is not necessarily
knowing where a world leads, aslong as it's something that
makes us happy, it's somethingthat we chose and not someone
else chose for us, and I thinkthat's part of the thing about
life that makes it interestingand, I'd say, worth living.

(01:40:14):
Absolutely Not necessarilyknowing the outcome, and I've
thought a lot about that when Iwatched movies where you could
go into the future and I'm likeI don't know if I would want
that, because that would takeaway the whole joy of life, what
everything is about.
Totally.
So I totally love that.
So, within the closing of ourconversation here which was

(01:40:41):
amazing, by the way I learned somuch I can't believe it.
So I'm going to have to write alot of notes down myself
afterwards and good realitychecks personally.
So thank you for that.

Speaker 2 (01:40:52):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:40:56):
And I think that's why we're here today is we
briefly talked about vision,goals etc.
And we talked about before thepodcast.
When we're just chatting, whenwe're earlier in our career or
as students, they ask us todefine a vision for ourselves

(01:41:24):
and we're just learning andrather I would call it
struggling to learn certaintechniques and the stuff that we
today see as small stuff.
And then someone comes to usand we want their advice and
tell us well, what's your visionLike?
What the hell are you talkingabout?

(01:41:47):
So how would what advice wouldyou give your young self?
You know, dealing with allthese challenges of the fear of
the unknown, wanting to achieve,achieve, achieve, having these
goals and being so worried aboutwhether you're not going to
make it, you know what would.
What advice would you giveyourself if you were meeting

(01:42:10):
your own 20 year old self?

Speaker 2 (01:42:12):
Oh, my 20 year old self, my goodness.
So going to a 20 year old self,I would say again kind of how I
alluded to this.
You know now I chilled outplenty.
But don't stress out about alot of the things that you're
currently stressing out about,because they don't matter In the

(01:42:32):
end.
They don't matter, just likewhen you're a teenager.
Nothing you stress out aboutwhen you're a teenager, really
kind of the same way in your 20s.

Speaker 1 (01:42:40):
For the teenagers in the audience.
Can you give us an example?
Because every teenager probablyhas heard that from their
parents and probably right nowlistening to us rolling their
eyes?
I actually do have a lot ofteenagers and young students
listening to the podcast,because I know that, because
they reach out to me, they say Ilove your podcast and I was
first surprised because Ithought my podcast is more for,

(01:43:03):
like, the young business ownerand but a lot of the other
audience are listening to thispodcast so I want to make sure
they don't roll their eyes andthey're not sitting there.
It's like, well come, exactlywhat you need.

Speaker 2 (01:43:14):
Yeah, I mean, I could probably write it off 10
examples.
So when you're a teenager, bodyimage is huge.
We always compare ourselves toother people and worry about how
we look and how we appearedother people.
The less you can care whatother people think of you, the
better and part of that issomething that you will just
learn with age to relationships,any of the relationships you

(01:43:37):
have in your teens.
Don't stress them.
Most of them aren't going to bearound when you're older.
Now, that's not always true.
My two brothers-in-law marriedtheir high school sweetheart, so
I don't want to, you know,downgrade high school love, but
don't stress the breakups.
Also, for my academic A type go, go, go.

(01:43:59):
Individuals.
A lot of the little minutiaethat you worry about, your
volunteer activities, all this.
Don't stress out how much youyou know what you look like on
paper.
Ask yourself what you'regetting out of whatever activity
you're getting out of it andmaximize it.
If you love sports, love yoursports.
Play them because you love toplay the sports.
If you are involved in otherextracurricular activities, you

(01:44:23):
know I don't want to step on anyparental toes here, but don't
just do things because otherpeople tell you to Do it,
because you get enjoyment out ofthat, and the sooner you learn
that the better, and it willguide you later on.

Speaker 1 (01:44:36):
Oh, my God, I love the last sentence you just said.
I absolutely love it.
I got goosebumps because Ithink we're really good.
I think we're we're programmedto way too early to do stuff
that we hate because someonetold us we're supposed to do
that and it will help us in ourcareer journey or whatever we're

(01:44:57):
trying to achieve.
And that's why so many youngkids are depressed, suicidal,
just because they're gettingcrushed under the pressure of
all that you know expectationsof achievement Set forth by
their parents, by their friends,in the entire school community.

(01:45:18):
So please, guys, if you didn'tlisten to the entire podcast or
you accidentally fast forwardedto this, just if you just listen
to Dr West last sentence,please engrave it somewhere
where you see it every day,because I totally agree with

(01:45:40):
that and you should live yourlife because you love what you
do, not because someone told youthat's going to get you point
from point A to point B.
Otherwise you missed the wholepoint of life.
And, jessica, I love, love,love your story, thank you.
It has inspired me and remindedme to continue to do what I

(01:46:01):
love and then not listen toother people that think I should
be doing something else,because, at the end of the day,
what I got from you is a growthmindset means both business and
personal, and so thank you forthe reminder, thank you for this
amazing, genuine conversation.
Absolutely, I have enjoyedmyself thoroughly, so thank you

(01:46:22):
for having me.
I hope yes, I hope we're goingto be joined together on a
podium soon, yeah, and sohopefully they'll get us back on
stage together.
I would love to work with youon stage and I think I love your
philosophy, I love everythingyou stand for, everything you
did, and I think, dr Hayabi, ifyou're listening to this, you

(01:46:46):
should be extremely proud,because if she was my fellow, I
would be like dancing right now.

Speaker 2 (01:46:50):
And thank you, Dr Hayabi, for everything.
You always have to appreciateyour mentors.

Speaker 1 (01:46:57):
And also Dr.

Speaker 2 (01:46:58):
Tauer, who worked with Dr Hayabi.
She was instrumental as well,so they were a great group,
great training and helped mytrajectory Fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:47:07):
Job well done.
Job well done everybody.
Jessica, thank you so much.
Thank you, faria.
Thanks for coming out.
It's been a blast and I willsee you soon and have an amazing
weekend and celebrate yourson's birthday.

Speaker 2 (01:47:19):
Yes, you as well.

Speaker 1 (01:47:21):
Yes, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (01:47:22):
Thank you, have a good one.
Bye, jessica.

Speaker 1 (01:47:24):
Bye-bye, all right, everyone.
I hope you enjoyed this podcastwith Dr Jessica West, when her
inspiring story and making a 180and changing her career and
choosing both life and career,which is something that many
think of but not many have thecourage to execute upon their

(01:47:50):
wishes and thoughts, so hopethat inspired you.
It certainly did inspire me tomake some changes in my life and
my work.
And if you enjoyed thisconversation, please, please,
please again, do not forget toleave me a review on Apple
Podcasts or comments on Spotify.

(01:48:11):
And special thanks to LorraineDryden from Achieving
Accreditation, which is aconsulting firm that has helped
us to with the accreditation ofour surgery center, and so for
anyone that is looking to gettheir surgery center accredited
by the Triple HC and with thehighest standards for patient

(01:48:34):
safety and care, I highlyrecommend them.
They're called AchievingAccreditation and so their
information is going to be downin the caption, so I highly
recommend them.
And thanks again and hope youtune back in next month.
Bye-bye.

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