Shaping the Future: Inside the Mind of XM-Satellite Radio Co-founder - Lon Levin - The Daria Hamrah Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Daria Hamrah (00:00):
Hello everyone, welcome to our podcast, the Dari
da Hammer podcast, where wedwell into the extraordinary
journeys of remarkable people.
Our guest today is someone whonot only played a crucial part
in shaping our present, but alsocontinues to carve our path
into the future.
I have the pleasure today ofhosting Mr Lon Levin, an

(00:23):
innovator in the realm of spaceand technology.
Currently, lon is steering thecourse of tech innovation as a
president of Sky7 Ventures.
In his role, he shapes buddingenterprises, leveraging his
decades of experience and deeprelationships throughout the
global space enterprise.
But the journey that led him tohere is just as noteworthy.

(00:47):
Co-founding XM-Satellite radioin the early 90s was a
significant leap that redefinedour audio experiences forever.
His career is rich with diverseexperiences, from law to
high-tech business, and spaceexploration contributes to his
unique perspective.
Today, beyond his businessendeavors, lon commits his time

(01:10):
to various nonprofit roles, withorganizations like the Plantary
Society and the National SpaceSociety, pushing boundaries into
our understanding of space.
Now I'm really thrilled todelve into the inspirational
journey of Lon.
So sit back and grab a cup ofcoffee and join us as we take

(01:30):
you to the journey through thelife, career and insights of Lon
.
There's a lot to uncover.
So, lon, let's get started.
Welcome.

Lon Levin (01:40):
Thank you so much, daria.
By the way, I'm a tea drinker,so I hope my tea is okay.
Oh, fantastic Coffee tea.
Drink whatever you want, enjoythe podcast Wonderful.

Well, I drink both .
I drink both coffee and tea, soI would say it's 50-50 with me.
So I'm kind of an odd one.
I can party with both groups.
I just am bipartisan, you know,being in DC.
So, lon, we're going to reallydeep dive into your story

(02:15):
because I think it's veryinspirational at many levels,
all the way from your past toyour present.
But just for the audience, justso they can connect with you
without getting too technical.
Now, you're the co-founder ofXM Radio and most of us had no
XM Radio from Sirius XM.

(02:36):
And just for those of you whodon't know, xm Radio or Sirius
XM now is a satellite radio andI was shocked when I talked to
you, when I noticed and realizedthat you basically invented it
in the early 90s.

(02:56):
I was actually a college studentin the early 90s and I really
thought XM Radio was somethingfrom the 2000s and that's what
really surprised me.
So take me into, let's goquickly back into that time and
just tell us to the audiencefirst of all what satellite

(03:19):
radio actually is, how itfunctions, very briefly, without
getting too geeky, and thentake us just back in time and
walk us through how you one dayyou sat in your chair and you
said you know, radio sucks.
We need to do better and let'sjust connect to say a satellite
and just walk us through it veryquickly for the audience to

(03:41):
connect.

Lon Levin (03:42):
Absolutely.
And again, thank you so muchfor this chance just to talk
with you so very quickly withregard to satellite radio.
Satellite radio is a technicalservice that provides by the way
, it's always been the same planoverwhelming choice, great
quality, and it's ubiquitous itcovers the entire continent of

(04:05):
the United States.
The only way to really do thatis to have a satellite, which is
essentially a very, very largeantenna in the sky covering the
continent, in order to providequality service, and if it's
particularly its audio, you needto make sure that the listener
never, never, loses signal.

(04:26):
So how do we do that?
Well, we have two satellites sothat they're both looking at
from two different angles.
To make sure that they strikeyour car, that's on the road,
where you're not in a city.
When you're in a city, there'sa third transmission and those
are the terrestrial repeaters,because sometimes you're going
to go behind the building.
No more satellite.

(04:46):
But you've got to get thesignal because, as we found out
with audio service, people donot tolerate loss of signal.
You could not tolerate it moreif it's video, if you're a
stimulus going on coming at you,but audio, you either get a
full signal, otherwise you'lllisten.
So the reality is is that XM?
And now Serious XM.

(05:07):
They cover 99.3% of all thesurface of the continent,
essentially, or at least,continental United States, most
of, I should say most of, canada, but a lot of Canada and then a
lot of Mexico.

Now, every innovation starts with an idea,
right?
So I know ideas for thoseentrepreneurs on the audience.
Ideas pop up in our head allthe time, but to me, when I
observe people like you and allthese innovators, that really
changed the way we live today isthat they had an idea that

(05:45):
actually solved the problem, sothey didn't try to retrofit a
problem to an idea.
They didn't try to create aproblem, so it matches that idea
.
And I see a lot of innovationsfail because of that reason.
But was that like a processthat led you to that innovation?
Or literally, you were like mein a shower one day and you're

(06:06):
like, oh my God, I have an ideaLike how did that evolve?
Were you working on somethingelse?

Lon Levin (06:13):
And then you kind of Well, it wasn't quite like a
revelation in a shower, but itwas a revelation, and you had
asked me that in the previousquestion, in the same question.
And that is how did I get there?
How did the idea come about?
Well, you're right, usuallyideas that succeed are dealing

(06:38):
with current problems that wehave, but people aren't seeing
the solution just yet.
So I was both a musician.
Three things, maybe four things,great confluence of events.
I'm a musician, so I love music.
I'm very eclectic in my musicaltastes.
Two, I loved radio as a child.

(07:00):
Now I'm a bit older than youare, and there was a time when
FM radio was talking to a wholegeneration.
It was cool, it was hip, it wasbringing music to everybody and
it was relatively more eclectic.
So that's two things.
The third thing is that I was asatellite guy.
I'm in the satellite business,I'm in the space business.
I loved it.
It was my career.

(07:20):
I'm an entrepreneurialsatellite company.
It's doing mobile satelliteservices, the precursor to the
Iridium's of the world today,and so I was there.
And then, fourth, things werein the air.
In other words, what was in theair, literally and figuratively
?
There was satellite television.

(07:41):
From those days it was onlyfive channels before we had the
two major ones in the UnitedStates and in Europe, and all
that we had hundreds of channels, all right.
So everything was there.
And, as you point out, this is1992, 1991, 1992.
So radio sucks, quality is notvery good.

(08:02):
What's going on here?
Why?
What's the problem here?
And this was the epiphany, whenI began to understand that and
think about it.
I've always been somewhatentrepreneurial, just like
yourself.
How do we solve problems?
You see the problem, there'sgot to be a solution here.
So in this case I had all theskills and I had the knowledge

(08:23):
at the right place, right time.
And I'm thinking to myself whydoes radio suck as bad as it
does?
And the word suck is anunderstanding 20 minutes of
commercials.
Every station has the sameplaylist, which is essentially
adult-oriented rock.
There were very few stationscatering to individual tastes,
whether it was Hispanic or R&Bor classical or anything you can

(08:48):
.
You know it's hard to believe,but just wasn't available.
Okay, so the reason is becausethere were all these different
owners, period, and every ownerwas after the same audience,
because it was the biggestaudience, it was the audience
that was going to pay the money20 minutes worth of commercials,
you better play a song that'sgoing to grab you years.
So everyone's playing Born toRun by Bruce Springsteen.

(09:12):
You know it covers an awful lotof ground and everyone loves it
.
There were other songs likethat in those days, and Michael
Jackson was another one beat it.
I mean just everyone wouldlisten to it.
You'd stop them listen to itand you had no choice.
And if you could spin the dialand you go to another Born to
Run, you'd listen to it.
It was so stupid.

(09:33):
But that's why radio is so bad,because there were so many
different owners.

I really do remember those days.
So everything you're telling me, I'm getting flashbacks.

Lon Levin (09:43):
Right, you're starting to sweat, feeling
really miserable because you'rein a car and it sucks, so then,
okay, so how do you fix that?
Well, if you could own a wholemarket, if you owned every radio
station in a market, what wouldyou do?
You would count a program,because now your goal is just to
get as many years alwaysgetting many years, but this

(10:05):
time you want one set of yearsfor contemporary adult rock, one
set of years for R&B, and youwould just figure out what would
be the 30 best channels thatpeople would be interested in.
You probably have an NPRchannel, maybe another news
channel, sports, I mean, thereare always ideas and they're all
on XM now, but in those days itjust didn't exist.

(10:27):
Okay, so then how do you dothat?
Well, how do you build abusiness around it?
What kind of infrastructure doyou need?
I'm a satellite guy.
All you got to do now and Idon't want to make it sound like
what you got to do is have anidea that it happens.
But you know, if you can getantenna high enough, have enough
capacity to have 50 channels,maybe, maybe, build a radios and

(10:53):
all that, maybe, maybe, maybe.
If you could do all this, youcould have a business and you
can aggregate enough customersthroughout each of the markets
that you could have a revenuestream and ultimately have some
kind of cash flow payback andultimately be profitable.
That was the idea and it allcame from the radio sucked.
If you control a market, youwould count a program and have

(11:15):
all these channels, and out ofthat was born the idea of let's
have satellite radio.
I don't know if it's to getthere, but that was the idea.
And, by the way, what's coolabout the idea is that it was
always the same fundamental idea.
Of course there were twists andturns all along, but at the end

(11:36):
of the day there's overwhelmingchoice, great quality and
ubiquitous coverage whicheveryone loved and that's why
people bought it.
And, by the way, I want topoint out was the we're proud of
this the fastest growing audioproduct.
It's first year of introductionever.
Don't get me wrong.
There are more FMAM radios,there are more iPods in those

(11:56):
days and more CD playerseventually.
But for its time, from zero to60 in the first year the largest
growing audio product ever.
It still holds the record forthat Because it was such a
hunger for it.
Everyone wanted it.

Yes, and so what was from the time of the idea to
the time of the implementation,meaning it going actually live?
How long did it take?
Now, first of all, when did itgo actually live on air for the
first time?

Lon Levin (12:31):
2001.
It was in prototype for 2001.
Like I had the first radio inMarch or April, I was listening
to it, but it went into themarket in early November, late
October, early November of 2001.

(12:52):
2001.

It started in 1992 .
Wow, so it took almost 10 years, almost 10 years.
Weren't you worried duringthose 10 years that someone is
going to come up with somethingelse and then all those 10 years
are going to go to waste, likewere you thinking about that?

Lon Levin (13:10):
No, the only thing I was thinking about good, very
good question.
My only feeling during thatwhole time that I remember was
that I was sometimes feeling sadthat someone else was going to
do it.
I knew it was going to happen.
I knew it from the first time.
We really thought about it andI worked with others to develop

(13:31):
business plans and then work onthe technology, keep on sharing
the idea.
You know you're not talkingabout how do you get to be an
entrepreneur and all that.
You can talk about that somemore.
But throughout that wholeprocess, the 10 years, I knew it
was going to happen, but I wasfeeling bad sometimes that it
may not be me and my XM team youcan call it XM in those days,

(13:52):
but you know that team may nothave the chance to do it.
There ended up being threeother groups that were also
buying to do this in the UnitedStates and we just ended up
being the one that not only gotthere first but in nine months

(14:18):
earlier than series.

Now, just to that point, can you share one major
obstacle that you faced duringthe formation of XM radio?
And, just for the entrepreneursin the audience and sweet,
sweet people, how did you manageto overcome it?
Because you know, we all know,that whenever you have a

(14:43):
grandiose idea as an innovatorand entrepreneur, you approach
it with such conviction becauseyou feel you're the only one
that truly sees the future andyou just have to be able to
inspire not just the team, butthe investors, the people.
I mean so many things.
There's almost this weight onyour shoulder.

(15:04):
Can you walk us through one ofthose major obstacles in those
nine years from 92 to 2001?
And how did you manage toovercome it?
And what was like the?
Was there a pivotal moment, youknow, if you remember, yeah, I
do I actually.

Lon Levin (15:22):
My memories of all this are rather vivid.
I don't know if I can tell youthe exact date, but I still only
had the feelings.
It was extraordinary, excitingtime to have been part of.
It was a wonderful part of mycareer.
So I'm going to hit upon.
There are a number of thingslike.
There was a technical challenge, for example, how to get the

(15:44):
antenna small enough, and thosekind of things are satellite
issues.
But but let me hit upon onethat you already talked about,
which is just convincing people,convincing the market,
convincing investors, convincingothers to join.
I mean the whole, convincingthat they see the vision that

(16:06):
the original people had,including myself who was leading
.
And so just imagine thatsomeone comes to you or someone
came to you in those days andsaid I got a new idea for radio
At those days, even thoughpeople thought that radio is not
very good, it was ubiquitous, Imean, in their minds, and

(16:29):
everyone said we've been upradio here, why?
And also radio sort of not thenumber one medium, it was always
more, you know, video and allthat.
So people just thought therewas enough radio, and we will
talk about that a little more ina second I just want to is then
imagine going to New York Cityand this is the place where I

(16:56):
speak as a New Yorker, by theway where you think you have
everything.
And what do I need more radiofor?
We have all the radio we couldpossibly want.
Let me tell you a littleanecdote that I learned as I was
doing this in New York, tryingto raise money and convince
investors, because when I tellyou the rest of the story with
investors, they look on.
This is never going to happen.
Because in New York City,because everyone thinks they

(17:17):
have everything, New York wasone of the least, was one of the
slowest adopters of mobilemobile phones in Northern
Hemisphere.

What was the reason for that?

Lon Levin (17:34):
Well, it was the same reason why.
There's another city that wasthe greatest adopter, was the
fastest adopter of it will takethat city a second.
You'll make it through that I'mspeaking.

Let me guess before you say it.
I'm just.

Lon Levin (17:44):
North America, north America, okay, all right, so you
think about it as I'm speaking.
So in New York and I grew up inNew York, I grew up in the city
you used to be able to go intothe deli and then get the phone.
And then, you know, and you werealways able to get a phone
really quickly, because it wassuch a dense area that your

(18:05):
notion that you needed a phoneimmediately just wasn't there,
and so it was so hard for thatmarket to adopt mobile phones,
as opposed to other places whichyou can imagine did need more
phone.
So it was that same exactattitude and once I found out
about that I realized, you know,you got to sort of educate

(18:25):
people that there's a wholecountry out there that may need
more radio, even though youththey do have enough here, as
reality is they did have anHispanic channel in New York.
They did have a classical musicchannel.
So you use those as examples,but it was so shocking to find
out in those days there wereonly 10 classical channels in
the United States and Hispanicmade it even less.
They know it's such a largepopulation and then serving the

(18:49):
African-American community andall that.
I mean it was amazing how wejust worried doing that and but
in New York you thought you were, and so now and I hope you're
thinking about with NorthAmerican City, I am.
Okay, well, I'm gonna give you achance.
Then I'm gonna see if you got.

I, you know, just a wild guess.
I would say San Francisco, theBay Area.

Lon Levin (19:13):
Okay, I'll give you another clue.
It's not a US city, NorthAmerica, though.

Oh, okay, Then I would say Toronto no okay,
Mexico City.

Lon Levin (19:23):
The reason why is because Mexico City had such bad
terrestrial infrastructure thatthey just jumped it.
And they all had mobile phones,Because that was their answer.
I talk about solving a problem.
I wish I had that franchisethat you know.
It just jumped everything,Similar to where you actually XM

(19:46):
, where you jumped everythingand billion more dollars and
there's I forget the name of thebillionaire, but he just made a
billionaire almost overnight.
Who invested in it and it'sjust an amazing story, and
that's an example of it wasstopped.
You know those phones.

(20:08):
And well, Mexico did.
Okay.
So, getting back to New York, soimagine you're talking to these
investors.
Already, they think thateverything's going to possibly
need an email, and then you say,well, here's your story.
We're going to have to build asatellite system.
How much is it going to cost?
Oh, over a billion dollars,$19.90.
Okay, Then you say, oh, andalso, by the way, you've got to
do all this programming, I'mgoing to do all this marketing

(20:31):
and all kind of stuff.
I'm going to get all the bestbuys.
You have to get in the cars.
Oh, and, by the way, people aregoing to have to take the
existing radio in their car andtake it out and they're like
who's going to do this?
We have enough radio.
And you say to them oh, by theway, they're going to pay for it
.
It's like their heads wouldexplode.

(20:52):
And that was the story, andthat was the only way to make
the dollars, and we had ideas ofhaving an advertising model,
but that was the story.
So every time that it's goingto cost us a lot of money,
you've got to build this wholeinfrastructure out nationwide.
You've got to launch yoursatellites risky enough, and
then you tell them about yankingthe radios off and then, when

(21:14):
you ice the cake with, ask themif they're going to pay for it,
they pretty much throw you outof the office.
But we kept on doing it.
We kept on doing it.
And then one of the things wetalked about is how did I sort
of know we actually gotsomewhere?
It's when general motors thegeneral motors decide to invest

(21:36):
and they were willing eventhough not in the beginning, it
wasn't GM cars for three years.
It's really when they so.
You know, in America I don'tthink that we could have to be
small enough to be in a car.
We could take three years.
You want to see that moneyinvest and once that happened,
it was like that was thedefining moment.

(21:58):
Now others had invested in us,but it wasn't a lot of money.
It was when general motors camein.
That's when we went public.
That's when a lot more moneywas pouring in and then people
were willing to invest.
The other good thing, and thisis just about being right place
at right time it was during theinternet boom, and during the

(22:20):
internet boom, everyone wasinvesting in everything and
people were looking forinvestments.
People were making a lot ofmoney.
They needed to move their moneyand we just benefited from that
general enthusiasm and so whatdo you think out of all
companies, gm invested in it.

What to them was?
Did they ever say it?
What to them was different?
How did they see that in XMradio?
What others didn't in youropinion?
Or maybe they even verbalizedit?

Lon Levin (22:51):
Well, actually they did one and two Ford.
Once GM did their deal, fordwas now looking at Syriac, and
so they had a match.
Look, these were the days whencars were not the amazing
computer gadgets that they aretoday.
Yet they were on the verge ofthat.
They're getting closer, they'rein these screens or anything.

(23:12):
But they knew that in order todistinguish themselves, and also
there was all these otherforeign competitors coming on
real strong Toyota and Honda andall that and so they needed to
differentiate themselves.
They needed to have a coolthing in the car and they were
convinced of the vision.
And once they were convinced ofthe vision and, by the way,

(23:36):
they would tell us and thattheir vision was right and that
people were buying GM cars justto get XM radio, but it was an
exclusive product that you canonly get on GM.

Makes no sense.

Lon Levin (23:47):
Makes no sense, and they had their own personal
vision, personal or corporatevision and good for them for
having that and realizing thatthat would differentiate.
They had something calledOnStar, so they sort of knew
satellite, yeah, you press thebutton and if you were in
trouble, rescue you, and ifsomeone talked to you, and so

(24:07):
they were already playing withthat kind of idea and mobile
technology was, it wasn't quitethere yet, but still they
understood it.
And so by the time this waslike 1997, they were looking for
the next best thing that theycould put in their cars to
differentiate themselves.
And it worked For a while.

(24:28):
They were the only one, andeventually others joined, but
they were the only one for awhile.

You know, I think with every amazing technology
that evolves, I think it needsthe right timing to introduce it
to the public and then also theright time, like in case of GM,
they wanted to have a new carwith Buzz that brings in some
Buzz, and here comes XM radio,satellite radio, something that

(24:55):
no one has, and then beingworried about the competition,
like Ford bringing on one, and Ithink a lot of these.
I remember when Apple car cameout I literally decided to buy
my car because it was one of thefirst one that Apple car
integrated.
Because I love technology.

(25:17):
I think the utility aspect oftechnology.
It saves us so much time, it'ssafe, it makes everything safer.
And I think for a user,sometimes new technology, if
it's too new, it's hard to wraptheir head around it and they
might think that I really don'tneed.

(25:39):
What do I need that for?
I already have radio.
Because they don't understandthe advantages and the benefit
new technology brings to them.
What would you say as someonethat is consulting businesses
around entrepreneurs?
They come with these grandioseideas and they're basically

(26:03):
let's just say they're soenthusiastic about their idea
that they don't necessarilyrealize that they may or may not
be any use for it, but theyfall in love, let's say, with
their invention and you, as anoutsider, you look at it and you
have to break it to them.

(26:23):
How do you do that?
And at which point do you saymaybe I'm wrong, Maybe they're
right?
Where do you draw that line?
Because we all are biased,based on our opinions and based
on our experiences, and there'salways stuff that we don't know,
that we don't know.
How do you draw the line whenyou consult these entrepreneurs,

(26:45):
innovators and these newcompanies?

Lon Levin (26:48):
Which is what you do today, right?
Well, it's part of what I do.
I also invest, but I also helpcompanies manage their new
technologies.
To some extent I'm a consultant, but sometimes I'm actually
part of management, and they paysky-set adventures with my
company as well as some of mybest OK, so anyway, and also by

(27:11):
the way, it went dormant for awhile, I think we saw more
resume with the Lockheed as anin-house entrepreneur, where I
faced these same exact questions.

Yeah, we're going to get to that.

Lon Levin (27:20):
What technology made sense, what technology didn't
make sense.
And now I'm doing it on theoutside, and it was the same.
So every person, let me tellyou how I start.
The people will ask mesometimes and someone else right
inside whether to invest or.
You're not necessarily in line,but I'll tell you.

(27:40):
So if you came to me and yousaid to me Lon, I hear about
this idea, what do you think?
The first thing I'm going to sayis I am the last person to ever
pour cold water and say thisidea is not going to work
Because, a I may not know enoughand B I've certainly had that
in my life way too much.

(28:01):
I've had plenty of ideas thatpeople questioned, and they
questioned out of ignorance orout of lack of patience, or they
just wouldn't have time a day,and so I'm the last one who's
going to ever do that.
I just won't do it.
I'll never get to the point ofsaying this isn't going to work.
Now I do get to the point of Imay not work with you, I may not

(28:25):
invest in you, but I'll alwayslet down everybody easy and also
I'll give them thoughts aboutwhat I think they need to do.
But I'm not debating yourquestion and I'll tell you very
specifically what I do if it'san idea that just doesn't make
sense.

(28:46):
However, for the ideas that Ijust don't know yet and I need
to test them let me tell you thethings that I look for.
First, I just want to heartheir story.
I want to see if it hangstogether.
Two, I'm always looking forthird party validators.
Who else agrees and sees yourvision that is separate from you

(29:11):
?
In our case, we just talkedabout general motors.
That was really the validator.
We had plenty along the way,but this was the big one.
Everyone else had a vestedinterest.
Very careful if you lived ordied.
They wanted to live is abenefit of that.
Who is like that?
Often there are thesetechnologies that the government
may be interested in.
It's all right, thegovernment's interest is good.

(29:33):
The government is putting a lotof bets there.
I want to know who else seesthis as a good bet.
Then I'm interested in who elseis invested in them.
Then I want to see the businessplan and it really comes down to
everybody.
There are three things that anyinvestor or booty leak cares

(29:53):
about.
It's the technology thevalidator is really worth it,
we've planned all that.
And then it's the business plan.
It's hanging together.
What do you care if it's alittle break even and all that?
And then it's the managementteam.
Either experience or they getit Enthusiasm I see a lot of
that.
What I want to hear is are theygood at their story?

(30:15):
Can they tell their storyreally well?
Because, in fact, that's one ofthe skills you must have if
you've got to be an entrepreneur, because you've got to raise
money and you've got to keep ontelling the story over and over
and over.
It's almost like a player or astandard company act.
You're doing it over and overand over again and you're
perfected.
You're never perfected, but youget really close.

(30:36):
And so it's those three thingsthat I'm always looking for, and
if any one of them doesn'texist and, by the way, you can
always compensate for thebusiness plan and the management
you can always change those.
The technology is not going towork, it doesn't make sense, it
doesn't hang together orwhatever.

(30:57):
And that's hard for anybody,because unless you're a super
expert in that particular field,how do you really know?
All right, so I think I'veanswered the question.
I hope I have.

Yes, so you answered part of it.
The other thing that I'mcurious about is that how do you
you're also on the managementteam on some business ventures
you invest with them?
How do you decide what toinvest in?
Do you go by justdiversification, or do you

(31:32):
invest in businesses that youobviously you believe in?
But how much do you know ofthose businesses?
Do you only invest inbusinesses and technologies that
you understand, or do you gobeyond that?
And if so, how do you make thatdecision?
Is it just you just look at thesheets, you look at the books,

(31:52):
you look at the market, you lookat validation, like you said,
or is there something else?
Do you also have look into thefuture vision of whoever that
business or entrepreneur is?

Lon Levin (32:05):
I do have to feel the vision like instinctually.
But to answer your question,first of all, what SkySend
Ventures is, which is relativelysmall fund.
It's not really aboutdiversification.
My personal wealth isdiversified, so this is more my
business.
And how do I?

(32:27):
Right now it's my business.
I've been around a long time.
I told you went over a little,although it maintains
investments, and then it's backagain.
Ok.
But the point is is to ask youa question.
So what do you look at?
So I think it's the samequestion, as I already said.
I said I want to see a thirdpart of validation.

(32:47):
I really want to know.
The second thing I look at as aninvestor and or something's
going to work for them anddevote some considerable time is
when does this go?
Cash flow break even.
The reason why that's reallyfundamental to me is because I
want to know when you're goingto stop needing money, and then
it's the money that you'remaking that will keep you going.

(33:09):
We'll raise more money once weget them, once you're
effectively in the black, andthings like that.
So I'm always looking for thattime, I understand, and then,
while I do is, I'll go back inhistory and see how long have
you been making money.
I mean, where are we now?
I always want to understandthat.
With regards to the management,I do want to see their
backgrounds, I do want to get asense of them, but I'm OK if

(33:31):
they're younger and I'm around,I'm OK.
I'm always looking to make surethat they have a really good
financial person.
Age doesn't really bother me.
I want to point out I was veryyoung and people gave me
enormous opportunity when I wasyoung.
I was young when I was still atsome radio and even then I was

(33:52):
part of other entrepreneurialventures and I've always lived
that way, no matter what.
Now, as I'm much older, agejust isn't the issue.
The issue is people's abilities, their enthusiasm and then
their emotional, my sense oftheir emotional stability.

(34:16):
I don't mean that.
I just mean it does take a kindof person to put up with the
risks that the entrepreneuriallife brings.

Yeah, so based on, obviously you have a lot of
experience, like close back,what four decades and what do
you believe is the mostsignificant, I guess, attribute
to a CEO or leader?
That a leader should have toeffectively guide their team

(34:50):
along that journey and meet thecompany's financial goals at the
same time, knowing that thereis going to be ups and downs,
like in your case.
It took nine years and when youlook at companies now that
you're consulting are part ofhow do you navigate that as a
CEO?
What attributes should you have?
Because to me, a CEO is mainlya leader.

(35:12):
It's like a I don't know like acoach, doesn't necessarily
operate at all aspects, butoversees things and makes sure
that the company's performanceis and advance is within the
vision of the company or theproduct.
Can you give us a littleinsight?
What, in your opinion, is themost important attribute?

Lon Levin (35:36):
So this is something that I do teach entrepreneurship
, actually worldwide, and I havebeen in different stages
throughout the world and I loveit.
It's my favorite thing, and theolder I get, the more I love
the mentor and talk to otherpeople who are entrepreneurs and

(35:57):
a lot of people I have.
I have dozens of people whohave me on speed dial and they
call me.
One just called me today and Ihad her challenges, all right.
So anyway, I tell you thisbecause this is what I start
with with every one of my talksand I say if you remember

(36:17):
anything from this talk, justremember this and then we'll.
Everything else is gravy.
I hope you'll learn something.
So and I was taught thisactually by my uncle, who was
his own kind of entrepreneur inthe New York City, who was an
attorney in New York, had asmall routine practice but did
well in the industry, all right.
So I'd say there are threestages in every career.

(36:37):
The first stage is analysis,the second stage is judgment and
the third stage is decisiveness.
And the quicker you get todecisiveness and learn how to be
a decision maker, the fasteryour career will grow.
Now just to be in CEO, but tobe in when you graduate from
school, when you are taughtskills in school, or if you're

(37:02):
hired for a new job or whatever.
You better be good at analyzing.
That's why the people arehiring you.
You can analyze the problem,whatever that field of endeavor
you're entering into, very soon.
Thereafter, months, weeks,maybe your boss is going to say,
hey, what do you think?
And that's when judgment comesin and you can say well, boss, I

(37:24):
think we should do this.
You're not on the line.
You're showing your newanalytical skills and then
you're showing that you cansynthesize and you can judge
everything.
And then here's my judgment.
Hopefully you're articulate.
You know all that.
A lot of people, for a lot ofreasons, some of them good, your
family, you like, your job,whatever Stay in the judgment
world.
That was why they made me makethe decision.

(37:46):
But what they're not learningyet is what is essentially to be
the definition of a CEO, whichis someone who makes decisions
with imperfect information,because it's the people who can
do that and do it well and do itrelatively fast and, by the way
, I can, course, correct if itwas the wrong decision and own

(38:09):
the decision.
Those are the people who risethe fastest, who stay in
leadership roles and, by the way, sometimes they get nailed.
They made the wrong decisionsand then you know but they take
it.
I mean it was, they own it, andso that's my point.

(38:29):
My point is the reason why it'snot just very decisive, because
the reality is you don't haveall the resources that you need,
but you have to move fast andyou have to.
You can't just sit there andworry and say, if I do this, if
I do that, you just got to moveforward and see if it works.

(38:51):
And then there's skills, thatlearning how to do that, and
incremental risk and all that.
Yeah, good.

Yeah, I love that answer because I 100% agree.
And one of the things to that Idon't know what percentage you
feel is I call it gut feeling,you know, but gut feeling is
based on a lot of subconsciousdecision making, based on a lot
of information that your brainprocesses right.

(39:19):
So, in your opinion, how muchof a CEO's decision is just gut
feeling and how much is pureanalysis of data?
You know, when you make adecision, you know you have to
make a decision based on set ofinformation.
What percentage of that is gutfeeling and what percentage of

(39:40):
that is true data?

Lon Levin (39:43):
I don't know if I can give a precise answer, but I
put.
Your question is a very goodone, and that is essentially the
question is do you include bothin it?
And the answer is I.

Well, you have to.
You don't have completeinformation.

Lon Levin (40:00):
Right, you have to.
So what you have to do is, atleast, okay, I'll do it.
I mean, I will always get allthe information that I think is
achievable, and if I don't haveall, I'll ask another person and
say, guys, you have, but on theother hand, I know the clock is
ticking and so I'll always givemyself somewhat of a deadline.

(40:21):
I can always violate mydeadline, but I always want, and
I'll tell everybody that, look,we need to make this decision
today because we just have tomove forward.
And you can always say, look,the information is coming in,
let's do it, okay.
So you know, I guess it changes.

(40:42):
It changes in variable to howmuch data that you have.
So it's always going to be datadriven, all right.
But the problem or thechallenge always is is that data
driven?
It will be so nice if the worldhad all the data that you need
and then all you have to do ismake.
But then it's not making it atsome level.

(41:02):
If we could all do that, maybethere wouldn't be any more
businesses and risks and all thethings that are taking place
anyway.
But let's put that aside toanswer the very simple question
Get as much data as I possiblycan with the time that I have
and then just make a decision.
And then that's the gut part.
It's like, based on everythingthat I know and you do call it

(41:24):
gut, you know it's also you haverelatively good judgment,
you're a smart person, you are alistener, you see the vision,
you know, you think clearly,you're not impaired.
I know these other things.
So that's how I look at it asmuch data as you possibly can
and in fact sometimes it comesin a decision making.

(41:46):
I know what decision I want,like my gut level, from the
first day.
I embark on it and making adecision, and then I'm always
flexible in those times of datagathering to keep on going back.
I'm always listening to myself.
Well, no, actually we thoughtthat that's what we're doing.
And then also I talk to peopletoo.

(42:07):
I try to be alone, but at theend of the day it's very lonely.
I mean, you've got to make adecision and it's your decision,
not a boss.

Now, within the same context, can you think of
one of the biggest mistakes youever made?
You know, making one of thesedecisions and then ended up
being a big mistake.
Can you think of one?
And what do you think youlearned from that and are you
applying that and how do youapplying that experience
currently or thereafter?

Lon Levin (42:40):
I want to be careful about big mistakes.
I was like I came to mind Ididn't think about one today.

And it was a person or failure like something
big.

Lon Levin (42:49):
It was a personnel one and I don't want to.
Okay, so, yes, I can.
Actually there was, there wasone.
It's more of a corporate one.
Okay, I'd rather I wasn't thedecision maker, but I was a
senior executive.
And so someone once said to mewhich I think is another,

(43:13):
another aphorism that bringstrue with me, and that is that
the cardinal sin in business isto be right and not prevail.
Okay, and so that's where Iimagine I've made some mistakes,
where I wish, as a seniorexecutive of which I have been
since the early night of apartner law firm before, but I

(43:35):
was at a senior executive in1990s, as an example of being a
young person being given a lotof responsibility, and I
remember believing that we weredoing a satellite business for
the American mobile satellite.

(43:56):
The vision originally was radioto a talking, but data was
coming up and we thought thatthat was the future.
Some of us did.
But the trouble was thebusiness plan was wedded to the
talk, because talk in those daysthere was more information and
it required more capacity.

(44:16):
And if all you were doing isselling capacity, you could sell
a lot more if you couldactually get the voice customers
.
But then there was those of uswho said no, the data business
is going to boom, you'll getthere.
But the trouble is we sold WallStreet on the voice stuff.
I understood all the challenges, but I was the voice of we have

(44:42):
to do data, we have to do data,and I wish we would have
prevailed.
Going back to the cardinal sin,you know, and we they're the
small, smaller group of us andwe all could challenge the CEO,
but you know, sooner or lateryou can't challenge the CEO, and
he already made his decisionand, for that matter.

(45:03):
So he thought the board made adecision and, for that matter,
the investors made a decision,and so we had to keep on going,
even though we knew who was deepin this business and saw the
numbers, that it was the databusiness that was going to drive
this.
And the reality is, I believethe company still would be

(45:23):
strong If we would have donethat and, lo and behold, the
future is more data drivenanyway in the salad business.
I hope that's the story that ishappening.

Yeah, that was a great answer and great advice.
You know, people are especiallyentrepreneurs Because we are
too scared of making a decision,because we're scared of making
a mistake and not realizing makemistakes are part of the story.
I mean, no one succeeds withoutmaking mistakes and you know,

(45:58):
it's not about making mistakesor not making mistakes, it's
about what we learn from themand how we can apply that
knowledge into the future.
Because, you know, no onestarted walking when they fell.
You know.
You know from day one.
You know we all startedcrawling at some point.

Lon Levin (46:15):
We can just talk about that a bit more.
So what I always explain isthat people think that
entrepreneurs and others takeenormous risks.
It's not about taking enormousrisks.
It's about taking risks,learning how to manage risks.
Those are the greatentrepreneurs, and so what I

(46:36):
tell people is that what yourreal skill has to be after you
make your decision you clearlytake your risk because it's
based on imperfect informationis that managing your risk?
And that is are you managingthe decision you made, the risk
you took, and you got to getgood at it, keep on looking at

(46:58):
it, manage it and then and so,in the case of the ones I just
gave you, they weren't managingtheir risk anymore.
They were spending hundreds ofmillions of dollars on this
voice thing when people knewthat maybe that wasn't the right
thing, but they couldn'tcorrect.
They were unable to correct.
And it happens a lot in business, where people raise money.

(47:19):
They tell a story.
They can't change the story.
Understand it right?
Wait a minute.
You're changing the story.
I just invested in this.
I know it wants to face that,but you know, sometimes you
better face that otherwise, andI mean that's an enormous black
and white risk.
Then there's a smaller, day today managing your decisions kind
of risk.

Yeah, it's like knowing when to cut your losses
and when to move on and when tostick with it.

Lon Levin (47:43):
Exactly, that's another way of saying it.

That's the analysis part, and then between
the analysis, the judgment, thedecisiveness, everything you
already said.
That's, I think, what makes agood CEO and leader or executive
to understand that,understanding that there are
pressures from shareholders orinvestors etc.
And I think that's what crushesa lot of businesses and I feel

(48:09):
the larger business get, themore difficult I feel it becomes
to navigate those waters, youknow, because the pressure gets
on.

Lon Levin (48:17):
In fact, that is the challenge of large businesses.
They're making a lot of money,they got a great model, but the
future is coming, and well, theyeither manage through it or
they don't, and you and I havelived long enough to know that
various companies that we'veseen come and go, that were
giants and then they've goneaway.

So let's switch the gears a little bit into
space.
You know, being a satellite guy, like you say yourself, you
know you've been involved withthe Planetary Society, the
National Space Society and such,would you share some of your
thoughts on the current state ofspace exploration?
You know there is I see a lotof these videos going on on

(49:06):
social media claiming we neverlanded on the moon, like we
didn't even have the technology,like we don't even have the
technology today to land.
There's so many fake news inregards to space exploration
going on Now, first of all, canyou clarify that for us?

(49:27):
You know being the expert inspace and such.
And then also, how do you thinkthe current state of space
exploration is going to impactthe next generation of
entrepreneurs, whether it is inthe space business or in other
businesses?

(49:47):
Like you know, you took spaceto radio, for example.

Lon Levin (49:52):
So, first, with regard to people's disbelief of
space, it is when does that?

come from.

Lon Levin (50:05):
I mean, we're trying to psychoanalyze human remaster
this thing.
We're part of our fellow humanbeings and why do some believe
in conspiracy theories andhoaxes and all that?
I don't know.

Because there's a large number, based on the
studies, like 47 or 48%, believewe never landed on the moon and
look, you are a man of scienceyourself, right?

Lon Levin (50:39):
You know that there are those who are nuts, and the
good news is the scientists seemto be winning still, and the
people who use science to eventthe world are doing okay still,
as well as the people who landedon the moon.

(51:00):
I think that people it's funny,those are the same people.
I mean you'd ask them, do youbelieve in rockets?
Do you believe?
They would say, enter aballistic missile that can go
around the world, halfway aroundthe world, and blow up
something it's pretty much thesame thing that can go straight
up and land on this body that wesee.
So where it's coming from?

(51:21):
I think it's more minds thatare not as critical thinkers as
we need.
I'm sorry that more humanbeings are not critical thinkers
.
I think that's a loss in oursociety, and I think people need
to fill their brains up withsomething.
I think it comes from manywhere it comes from.

(51:43):
We're not developing as manycritical thinkers as we should,
and those people who have thesame brains that we do well,
they'll be speaking.
They're using it to fill ingaps and then sometimes the gaps
are based on nothing but whatthey say and, by the way, it's
not a cool idea that it was ahoax.
Sure, of course, Movies moviesare made of this stuff.

(52:06):
So anyway, but I assure you,I'm sure you and I could spend
time proving that it's not ahoax, including there are things
on the move that we left there.

Yeah, that only could have got there.
Hopefully not trash.
Well, unfortunately it is.

Lon Levin (52:25):
It is kind of, but it's.
You know, yeah, it is trash.

I mean, some flag is not trash, but yeah, the
vehicle, you're not going to usethe vehicle again you know,
yeah, yeah, I know, right, likeI remember I was, you know, I
went to University of Mines inGermany and the Max Plank
Institute there helped with theMars mission.
And, by the way, a good friendof mine.
Rest in Peace, feroz Naderi.

(52:52):
He just passed last month, asyou might know, from
complications after an accidenthe had.

Lon Levin (53:02):
So you know, yeah.

So I know you also worked on those missions
working during your time and youknow how did you.
How was your involvement withLockheed Martin and the
department?
Did you also work part of theDepartment of Defense, or tell
me, I mean.

Lon Levin (53:27):
I was separate from Lockheed Martin.
I was on what was known as theDefense Business Board.

Yes.

Lon Levin (53:35):
The Defense Business Board.
They have three major boardsand they have a fourth one now,
but in my day it was three.
They have a science board thattells the department about
science, but we were firstdirected to the Secretary of
Defense.
Then there was the policy boardthe policy, and then the latest
one.
The newest one was business andwe just told Secretary of

(53:59):
Defense through our group it wasa board of 20, you know best
business practices that maybethey would consider applying.
It was one of our experiencebecause we saw the upper echelon
of what's going on in thedefense enterprise.
We'll call it, and it wasalways made up of people, very

(54:23):
nonpartisan, who was wonderfullynonpartisan.
It just was.
We want our Defense Departmentto be the best so that we can
have the safest environment forour warfighters, as well as be
the most effective so we cankeep the peace throughout the
world, and so the board was.

(54:44):
And what I came to learn I justin a nutshell one of the
military leaders described thisas what's great about you guys
is that everybody asks the hardquestion what you can give the
hard answers, because thisreally isn't your job.

(55:06):
You're just doing this asvolunteers and patriots and, by
the way we can ignore youradvice.
You know it doesn't don'tlisten to you and so we would do
these various reports oneverything you can imagine and
all the best business practices,and it was eye-opening to see

(55:30):
how difficult it is to run thatorganization.
You know, when there is ahorrible conflict, when there's
a war, whatever we get reallyefficient, but when there's not,
it's a larger organization, ithas a challenge of efficiency

(55:51):
and it just keeps on growing.
And, that being said, it'sstill amazing that it's so
effective in what itfundamentally has to do with the
protective.
So it was a great experience tohave worked there.
And Lockheed Martin you askedabout that.
Well, I was more part of thecivilian.

(56:14):
I was somewhat part of thewhole government side, but
mostly part of the civilian sidewith Lockheed Martin and, in
particular, I was asked to be anentrepreneur in residence and
run an entrepreneurial companythat was commercial oriented and
meaning we're trying to justsell satellites and sell

(56:34):
services to different othercommercial companies worldwide.
It was an aspect that had agovernment piece and a defense
piece, but most of it wascommercial and it was a
wonderful experience.
It's an amazing company as faras just the amount of innovation

(56:57):
that goes on there and howimportant they are as a defense
company, but my focus wascivilian space.

I see so gotcha.
But I know this topic alwayscomes up.
I know there is a part ofterrestrial defense, but also
extraterrestrial exploration,one of the topics actually.
I heard Elon Musk was askedthat question if he believes

(57:29):
that there is ever been or willbe extraterrestrial life or
contact and people talking aboutoh, there's so much evidence.
The government is hiding it.
Of course, even if there was, Iknow you wouldn't be able to
talk about it, but I think whathe said is something prayer

(57:52):
phrasing.
He said if there had been sucha thing, we would have already
known.
And what else did he said?
I think he said that eitherthere is extraterrestrial life
and if there is, it's going tobe all around or there is none,

(58:15):
which would be kind of sad ifthere was none.
That means we're the only lifein the universe and which is
kind of unbelievable.
But if it were to be true, itwould be kind of scary.
Then we really have to takecare of this universe, because
then we're it.

Lon Levin (58:32):
So what is your take on it?
So first, because of the workthat I do, I hear everything and
I know all these personalities,including Elon.
My closest colleagues are thescientists, in particular on the

(58:58):
Planetary Society.
There's a reason why people arescientists and all that, and
there are plenty of theories andall that.
But what I have beenessentially trained by my
science friends, who are muchbetter critical thinkers than

(59:19):
myself we just don't know.
And you just have to be able tosay we don't know.
A lot of what Elon just said ishypothetical.
I understand the logic trainthat he stated.
It makes sense and, by the way,I believe that people think
we're going to the moon havetheir own logic train.

(59:39):
I'm not comparing that, I'mjust saying that everyone has
their logic, of course, but youhave to be willing to say well,
what evidence again, you're aman of science, what evidence do
we have that there is extratreachery?
And I don't know if you'reright, but I really knew I would

(01:00:03):
be able to tell you.
Anyway, I had a friend of minewho said, if I knew, I'd have to
bore you to death.
But the fact is, is that as Iget down, we don't know.
But here's the thing and thiswas so exciting about what we're

(01:00:24):
doing these days is that wereally are still just trying to
answer two basic questions, andthis is from the time we started
thinking as human beings.
Two questions Are we alone andwhere we come from?
And we still don't know forsure.

(01:00:45):
Clearly, having a James Webbtelescope and the Fort Huckle
telescope and then coming upwith this big bang theory is so
exciting to at least know.
Well, we can at least peer backto that moment in time, but
before that I don't really know.
There are just theories aboutthat.
No hypotheses, probably noteven theory.

(01:01:07):
But to answer the question,what I will always tell anybody
and this goes back to the CEOthing that is no, where's the
data?

Daria Hamrah (01:01:23):
What if there is data but we don't know how to
interpret it?
Or what is the current state ofour technologies for a
satellite and radio picking upsignals from the universe?
And then, even if we do,whether we recognize it or not,
how do we even interpret it?
Is there like a algorithm?
Is there specific data orprograms out there?

Lon Levin (01:01:45):
Well, there have been groups like SETI search for
extra-interrestrial intelligence, that it still exists I think
they were.
They go back and forth in theirfunding and all that.
But we do have dedicatedscientists who are looking for
patterns that would beindicative of intelligent life

(01:02:08):
versus other patterns that wesee that are more indicative of
non-intelligent and the future.

Just the noise.

Lon Levin (01:02:18):
Noise I mean bangs or gravitational changes or
whatever else.
We see light changes, Big bang,sorry stars exploding, stars
imploding, so people do look forit again.
It's something called SETI.

(01:02:38):
It's a veryscientifically-oriented
organization.
No reports that I'm aware, andI know people who work there and
I guess I would have heardsomething similar.
I mean, I am relatively wellconnected.
I suppose if there was somealienation, I don't think I'd be
the one, the first one, to betold about it.

At some point.
At some point, you would get aphone call.

Lon Levin (01:03:03):
I'd like to thank, but I have no idea who's on
those lists then, even if theyexist.
But I really think that anyonewho thinks about this stuff,
what I just invite them to do islook at the data, talk with
scientists, because I think whatthey'll enjoy is thinking about

(01:03:28):
these things in a critical wayand in a thinking way, and
they're wonderful thoughts andthey're wonderful thought
experiments.
I encourage them all and, infact, what I find, when it comes
to people who space business is, there is that what's called
romanticism.
There is that thrill of maybebeing part of either discovery

(01:03:54):
or exploration, or having evenhuman beings move off the planet
somewhere else, which is allhappening.
I mean it's.

Well, I think we get teased all the time in these
sci-fi movies.
Right, with these sci-fi movies, we all.
I think it feeds our fantasy.
But the big question I askmyself is if we make any contact
, are we going to be preparedand how prepared are we really

(01:04:24):
to handle the situation?
If there is, is there like, dowe have a team that handles it?
How prepared are we really?
Or are we just shooting signalsinto the sky and seeing what
sticks and what comes down?
But then do we actually have ateam?
Is there a protocol in place?

Lon Levin (01:04:45):
Okay, but with that we don't know.
We don't know.
I think the trouble with If Ihad to form a team, with being
going back to the fundamentalthing we're talking about.
We really don't know.
We don't know which form we'retalking about and if somebody is

(01:05:10):
even close and again we arestill after these basic
questions Is there.
Are we alone?
Is this the only place wherethere's life, and let alone life
like human beings?
And two, where do we even comefrom?
But we're trying to figure thatout.

(01:05:30):
I mean, the cool thing aboutour existence and our abilities
is that we are arguably onlycreatures that can get off this
planet, even think about thatstuff.
There are plenty of othercreatures on this planet and I
don't think they're thinkingabout where we come from.

(01:05:51):
And are we alone?
Maybe I'm underestimatingelephants.

That's a good point yeah.

Lon Levin (01:05:56):
I mean, but elephants and dolphins can't build stuff
that can go somewhere else.
And I think that some extentit's in our nature to keep on
doing this and to keep on goinginto these incredibly hostile
environments.
Space is so hostile, but yet wecan go there.
And we have this Artemisproject now where we're going to

(01:06:18):
have a lunar base, and once wecan do the lunar base, we'll be
there for a while.
We're going to be in Mars.
We're going to be in mylifetime, hopefully in your
lifetime, but we're going to go.
I'm not much.

I don't know how old you think I am, but I don't
think that's for a part.

Lon Levin (01:06:34):
But, thank you, you ready to give me a clue about
how old you are?
We're going to do something inmusic and all that stuff 1973,
that's your clue.
I'm old now.
Anyway, yeah, so I am, I am.
I think that they're all notonly good questions, they're

(01:06:57):
questions that I'm going toencourage, but I also encourage
people to be critical thinkers.
I'm exploring it and again, theprotocols and all that.
There's so many unansweredquestions.
How would you even do it?
It's not like I don't know howwe would respond, because we
don't know who's going to showup and show us what they are.

Yeah, well, I know we're ending nearing the end of
our discussion here, but assomeone who spent decades in
space and satellite, anyparticular sci-fi movies or
books that inspired youthroughout your path and helped
you fantasize and then I'm a bigStar Wars fan, having grown up

(01:07:45):
in the 70s and 80s is there anyparticular movie that you think
is very, most realistic, thatcould actually happen in the
future, and that inspired you?

Lon Levin (01:07:55):
or a book.
Like realism.
First let me tell you it's agreat book about
entrepreneurship is Moneyball byMichael Lewis.

Michael Lewis.

Lon Levin (01:08:10):
Lewis Moneyball they made a movie out of it with Brad
Pitt.
Oh yeah, I watched that, yeahso, but the book is even better
because what it talks about iscoming up with a new idea and
convincing an incredibly stodgyindustry that change was coming.
And, by the way, you know whatI wish we could talk about a

(01:08:34):
little more, and I mean we cando it.

Yeah, well, we can talk about it go ahead.
Was that?
Because that was my lastquestion is what is there that
you feel we should talk about,that we didn't talk about?

Lon Levin (01:08:46):
Okay, well, all right .
Well, let me first answer thequestion with the movie or book
inspirations and all that.
And I think that because I'minspired by, I think I'm more
inspired by entrepreneurship andcreating ideas that people want

(01:09:06):
to buy, and that's really whatmotivates me.
So I'm in the space industry.
I love it.
There's room, a part of it.
I don't want to tell you that.
I wouldn't be here otherwise.
But the other point I mean Iwas also in the radio and music
business when I was in XMediatoo, and we're in the
communications business andspace has so much new technology

(01:09:29):
and all that it's exciting tobe in.
So I am a space guy.
I'm considered a space guyspace cadet, music or so and
I've had leadership rolesthroughout the industry.
So I'm a space guy.
But, that being said, I'm reallyturned on by just creating new
ideas and new life.

(01:09:49):
So there's that part.
But when it comes to space, Ithink that it's somewhat cliche,
but I'm really constantlyinspired by this grand vision
that Star Trek presents and thatis, we really can work together

(01:10:12):
and get into space and do moreand more things, including meet
new civilizations and all that.
I mean, that's not quite aprotocol, but you know, there
one protocol is the primedirective that you can't
interfere with anybody, becausesomehow, if we're of that
ability to get that far intospace, we must have advanced
technology as well as into otherlife, because even if we find
that there's life somewhere, itmay be less evolved than ours

(01:10:39):
and also we have the sense thatthere's gotta be greater life in
the world and the universe, andmaybe I hate to think that
we're so advanced, who knows?
I mean.

for now we have to consider ourselves more
advanced, because we don't knowany, like you said, living
subjects that could go outsideof space, and we have been, I
mean.

Lon Levin (01:11:05):
Well, imagine that achievement.

Yeah, I think that's important, but you said I
like that because it gives us atrue perspective as opposed to
a fictious perspective thatwe're the dumbest in the
universe, that some people havethese theories, that there's so
many much more smarter lives outthere, that they're actually
looking down to us and laughingat us for not even finding them,

(01:11:27):
and how stupid we are.
I don't think that will helpour endeavors.
I think we have to giveourselves more credit.

Lon Levin (01:11:36):
I am a science fiction geek.
I love science fiction, but youask me, like, what inspires me?
It's more like that wholevision of that, our society,
which is what it's based on, asopposed to a galaxy long ago,
far, far away.
Which are great movies too.

(01:11:56):
I love them as well, but I'm ageek.
I love all those movies.
I'm easy to entertain when itcomes to it.
So what was your other question?
Oh, was whatever we talkedabout.
So what do you want?

to do yeah, anything that we haven't talked
about, that you feel we shouldhave talked about.

Lon Levin (01:12:18):
You sent me a bunch of questions, can I tell the
listeners?
You sent me some questions, soand I looked them all and I
wrote down the answers to all ofthem just to get ready.
That's how I do it and I dothese interviews and let's see
you were asking about.
Okay, so one of the things Ididn't talk about, if I could
just touch on it, and that isthe.

(01:12:40):
This goes to Moneyball.
I'm sure I was shocked when Iwas getting into the XM business
.
Here are the car companies thatwere trying to change
themselves.
They were relativelyindependent.
They had their models stillconservative.
I had never seen suchconservativeism in any industry

(01:13:05):
and I've been part of othercompanies that have made a lot
of money and they don't want tochange in the recording music
business.
Wow, it was so frightened.
I remember these are the daysof Napster and the days of the
internet, kind of coming.

Yeah.

Lon Levin (01:13:24):
And people just downloading music and stealing
and all that they were frozen intheir tracks.
They had no idea what to do.
I'm not quite sure they hadever figured out what to do,
because others do, like Appleand others and so, and it's
because they were so enamoredwith their old model that they

(01:13:46):
didn't know how to monetize whatthey had.
And these are days when onceyou sold a record and it was six
years old or whatever, younever sold another record again.
You know, you gotta keep on.
So they had no idea that theycould use their catalogs and
sell maybe the Beatles or FrankSinatra or something great like
that.
Besides that, Sure.

(01:14:07):
And they were so worried aboutus and they're so worried about
XM radio and they were loving ustogether with the internet.
But then when I meet with themand I talk to them, like I'm
talking with you now, we'rehaving a good high level
critical thinking discussionabout the world, any topics game
, a matter of hoaxes and space,whatever you can talk to them.

(01:14:31):
They were just, they wereimperitable because they were so
scared.
You could just see it.
We had no idea how to.

What was the what in you mind now, and Hyde said,
was their greatest fear of?
I mean, was it that they justdidn't want to rock the boat at
their conservatism?
Was it that they just didn'thave the understanding of this
technological revolution and seehow they can capitalize on it

(01:14:58):
and monetize it?
Like which one was it?

Lon Levin (01:15:02):
Well, that's a great question and the answer is that
when you're dealing withsometimes even the CEO who's
just put there, but definitelythe middle management people and
all that, if they're all makingmoney crescently, they don't

(01:15:25):
want to change this and it'sunderstandable.

So that's like the death sentence of any company,
especially today, especiallytoday.

Lon Levin (01:15:37):
But you don't see it in the beginning, because making
money, you know you can't faultthem for hanging on as long as
they can to make the last dollarbefore the world just gets
shifted under their feet and so,but that's the antithesis of a
CEO and a leader.

Well, based on our conversation, and these are
smart people.
How does that make?

Lon Levin (01:16:03):
sense that's the CEO and or a leader in an
entrepreneurial venture.
Okay, I think the CEO also inthose more established companies
has to be that way too.
But that CEO has to answer tothe people who are getting
dividends based on the modelthat they have created for the

(01:16:25):
last 25 years, and the CEO hasto make sure that they're still
getting money for them to change.
That's a hard thing to do.

Yeah, that's you know.
We can't be a slave to theshareholders.
I mean, that's the thing youknow.
Look at that we talked about.
You know, the bigger thebusiness gets, the more
difficult it becomes and theslower they get with innovation.
And that's why, you know, lookat what happened to Blockbuster.
You know there's so many bigcompanies that they thought

(01:16:59):
they're untouchable, almost wentout overnight with a new,
evolving technology, and I thinkthe ones that can adapt to the
fastest and the quickest are theones that are going to survive.
And you have to be willing toevolve.
You can't just be caught up inyour own ways and just you know
and you know what for theshareholders, I mean they would

(01:17:19):
want the same thing.
I mean, if I'm a shareholder,some fat for my money invested
in a business and a company.
I want them to innovate.
I don't want them to just staywith the status quo and then
just be scared to make a move sothey might rock the boat.
I mean.

Lon Levin (01:17:34):
Both shareholders would agree with you in theory,
but everyone is trying tosqueeze the last dollar out of
the old way you made money.
Until the bubble bursts.

Well exactly but then everybody jumpshipped.

Lon Levin (01:17:47):
Right.
Well, that's what's happened.
You know what the good news is?
It also allows forentrepreneurs to take advantage
of that.
Now there are companies thatactually are good at shifting,
netflix being a very recent andgreat example.
They were selling their CDs,their DVDs you know the mail
order thing that they would beblockbuster at.

(01:18:08):
Blockbuster kept on stayingwith their model.
Netflix says uh-uh, streaming'sgot to be streaming the future.
I mean, look what they did.
They totally destroyed theirold business.

Yeah.

Lon Levin (01:18:21):
What's their new business?

And you do that all the power to you.
And so how do you think now thestreaming radio like Spotify we
talked about a little bitearlier several days ago,
streaming businesses like Applehas now iTunes, has Spotify,
pandora, I mean that has taken ahuge chunk out of a traditional

(01:18:45):
radio market, as well assatellite radio, even though
satellite radio has some uniqueprograms that are just
irreplaceable, like they're likepart of our culture.
Now you know it's hard toimagine our lives without it,
like Howard Stern and stuff likethat.

(01:19:05):
But you know how do you seepodcasting what we're doing?
You know this stuff used tohappen over the radio in a
shorter format, that affected bymusic streaming and podcast.

Lon Levin (01:19:19):
The first one, podcasting, is an example of
this evolution of talk radio,right, yeah, uh-huh, exactly.
What's great about podcastingis and this goes to music in
general it's how relatively easyand inexpensively qualified

(01:19:40):
people can do it.
I mean, I think I don't want tospeak to that me too much, but
you are as good as anyone.
You know who's an interviewerand who's talking.
You're intelligent, you'reworldly, you know what's going
on and you're asking for it.
Thank you, you're welcome andso.
But I think that there's a lotof that.

(01:20:01):
And then the question that youhave as a podcaster, as well as
all this new music that's comingup there's one we talked about
the other day is how do we sortthrough that?
If someone really wants tolearn about XM or really likes,
I think if they like you,they're going to hook into.

(01:20:22):
I like this guy in the way heinterviews, you know.
I like the way he edits hisprograms and all the usable
stuff for me.
But what about the personseeking XM radio or
entrepreneurship or whatever?
I mean, how do they find thisparticular podcast?
Well, the same with music.
There's so much more music outthere and I think that one of

(01:20:43):
the challenges for all of thesekinds of audio and video both,
you know, entertainment andeducational.
Whatever is, how do we curate?
And I think that, yes, there'salgorithms where Spotify picks
up what you like and they thinkthey're giving you more of that,

(01:21:05):
and I think that's cool, but Idon't know that they're being
fed all this great music that'sbeing created worldwide, but
they're not.
And it's more and more musicbeing created because it's so
much easier and also it's somuch easier to make movies, it's
so much easier to make all thisdifferent entertainment,

(01:21:27):
podcasts being a type and Ithink that those who can figure
out how to curate, how to sortit, how to bring it to the
public.
I think that's the future, andthen the one magical part of it

(01:21:48):
is how do we create these massopportunities?
I get that things are going tobe more and more personalized
and also they're going to bemore and more of the world.
There's all these world ideasas well as entertainment
throughout the world.
We're already seeing it, youknow, but I'm really curious

(01:22:11):
where is the next Harry Potteror the next Beatles or the next
thing that will be so attractiveto the worldwide masses?

And how do we get it to them?

Lon Levin (01:22:27):
And now that we are so disparate and fractionalized
in our entertainment, how doesthat happen?
I don't know.
I don't know, but I think wehave, as a species, a need for
being similar to Kenexus as wellas we want our personal
interests to be.

Yeah, I think I don't know if you watched the
recent documentary about GeorgeMichael, which was a documentary
that he was working on when hedied and then.
So they finally published it, Ithink last month.
And I'm a big music buff and Ilove music, just like you.

(01:23:09):
I used to play music myself andI still do a little bit.
But they asked him, you know,and they talked to him.
He actually to your point now,he talked about it and they
asked him you know, who's goingto be the next big star?
And because he was kind of likethe last really big star, like
Elvis, then the Beatles, thenMichael Jackson, then Madonna

(01:23:36):
and then George Michael, andthen he said you know what music
is getting so fragmented thathe said in his final words that
he doesn't think there's evergoing to be big stars like there
had been.
And I kind of agree becauselook how many years we hadn't

(01:24:00):
had that and because it's sofragmented.
And then to the other point thatwe talked about.
You know that there's so muchmusic out right now.
It's like how could we possiblyfind all of that music Right?
I mean it's like how do youfind a particular fish in the
ocean?
I mean we couldn't even find ittook us I don't know how many

(01:24:23):
days it took us to find thesubmarine that we knew where it
was and we couldn't find it.
That's how big the ocean is.
And I look at music the same wayyou want to find a particular
music.
It's so much out there now it'salmost impossible unless you
know the exact title and theartist.
So what do you think?
Do you think AI, artificialintelligence, is going to have a

(01:24:43):
role in that that?
You know, like, for example,chat, gpt we do as a large
language model that once it'smore connected to the Internet I
think now they're connecting itto the Internet can just help
us find the music that is thatwe love and it's in tune with us
, and then help us even get usin touch with artists that we

(01:25:05):
never knew, but it's the type ofmusic we like.
How do you think AI is going topay a role into that future?

Lon Levin (01:25:12):
I'll give you the example.
The answer is I think AI willbe part of it.
I think marketers andsalespeople and also great
musicians, obviously.
But look, I mean, you can evenimagine it today.
What if you and 25 peoplethroughout the world ask their
chat, gpt or whatever, what isthe most popular musical artist

(01:25:37):
today?
Or what song, the most popularsong that everyone's listening
to today?
That's a popular artist that'sliving.
Okay, all right, that'd be kindof interesting to ask that
question.
Sure, and assuming it couldactually figure it out and
accurately I mean, we've got alot of issues right now in AI
but assuming it could do that,then you could start imagining

(01:26:00):
all right, that's a mass artist.
There are 70 million peoplethroughout the world who love it
.
There are 20 million peopleWait a second All of Africa
loves that.
You know what I'm saying?
You could start putting piecestogether and then, once you do

(01:26:20):
that, you start curating and youcould create mass movements.
That way I'm imagining it.
I don't know.
Until you did it, I don't know,I don't think it's true.
I think that is a way the AIcould do it.
So I still just want to go backto my fundamental challenge or

(01:26:42):
point.
I do think what we're talkingabout is one of the next great
technical challenges in musicand entertainment.

I do.

Lon Levin (01:26:54):
It is dying to have mass entertainment.
One question is who are themasses talking about?
What does mass mean really?
Let's assume we can define that.
How do you create somethingthat enough people really love
that it's its own phenomenon andwe've had them.

(01:27:15):
We know it exists, whether it'sBeatles or Harry Potter.
It can't be worldwidephenomenon.

That always will be to some degree to one or the
other.
I mean, we're just speakingrelative to the past, which is
kind of an unfair comparison,because the technology we have
today is not the technology wehad in the past.
I mean, in the past there wasseveral record labels and they
selected who the stars are andbased on the people's response

(01:27:47):
or the fan base, and that was itthe technology today.
You can't compare thetechnology today with the
technology of the past.
Back then, musicians weresigned by record labels and they
published things and if theydidn't, you wouldn't hear about
anything, and if they did, theywould make you a star, and
that's why I don't think thosetypes of stars will exist,

(01:28:10):
because everybody can publish asong or music on YouTube or
Spotify.

Lon Levin (01:28:17):
That doesn't explain the Beatles and their amazing
dominance.

Well, that's different right.
So, that is true art thatresonates and electrifies with
the masses.
I mean that was hysteria.

Lon Levin (01:28:33):
Can we have another?
I'm sure we.

I think we do, I think we will Okay, but then how
does?

Lon Levin (01:28:40):
it in a fragmented media environment.
That's my question how do youdo that in the future?

I understand how we did in the past because there
was I don't think it would besuch thing as a cross-continent
like Elvis or the Beatles, where, whether you were in India, you
were in London, in Germany oryou were in the US, there's
never going to be mass hysterialike that, because how it's

(01:29:13):
fragmented.

Lon Levin (01:29:14):
That's what.

I believe Because, yeah, I'm sorry, I'm jumping,
okay, continue.
Yeah, because I mean I'mlooking back, I'm thinking who
was the last global music artiststar?
I mean, if I look at a band, Iwould say maybe you two, pink

(01:29:39):
Floyd, those were the last ones.
No, it was Michael Jackson.
As far as the individual stars,michael Jackson, george Michael
, madonna, those were the lastones.
I mean, who else was after them?
As far as globally?

Lon Levin (01:29:55):
Right.
The reason was because I wouldargue as you're arguing too
because of the fragmented natureof music and entertainment.
But what I'm saying is is thatI think that there is a need, a
human need, or a human desire tobe part of something bigger and

(01:30:18):
to enjoy a global thing.

Now my question to you is is that your nostalgia
speaking?
Or is it just that, as humanswho are just evolving, the
answer is I don't know.

Lon Levin (01:30:36):
I'm truly hypothesizing right there.
My hypothesis is that peoplelike to have a mass enjoyment
and mass understanding.
It's a way that we connect witheach other, I agree, and just
like we love to be in a concertand everyone's group at the

(01:31:00):
concert, it's well, what aboutworldwide, if we can enjoy
something Right?
And so I think that the musicbusiness, industry, invention,
whatever that gets us there, Ithink that is somewhat of the
future.
But that's when you ask mewhat's the future music?

(01:31:23):
I think, personally, I thinkthat's the future of music that
we don't have.
Yeah, I think that's true.
Yeah, Well, anyway, I haveother questions.
I have questions you asked, butit's up to you if you want to
stop.

Well, this was.
I could go on for hours, so wemight actually do a second
episode, because we had so manytopics we have, from music to
satellite tech, to space.
I was trying to just focus onone area, but it's impossible

(01:32:02):
because everything you do has todo with all of the above.
But one last question, and Iwould love to do a second
episode to this podcast, but forthis podcast I always ask a
last question in closing is thatwhat advice?
What is your advice based onall your knowledge occurred in

(01:32:23):
the past decades, you would givean entrepreneur that is, a true
entrepreneur what advice wouldyou give?
Well, let me ask you thequestion different.
What advice would you giveyourself if you could go back in
time, your own 20-year-old self, who is an aspiring

(01:32:47):
entrepreneur?
What advice would you giveyourself if you could sit in the
time machine, go back and talkto your 20-year-old self?

Lon Levin (01:32:55):
I would say to myself that things that I just learned
over time.
Nothing is ever as good or asbad as it seems, but you really
cannot predict the future.
Don't worry so much andappreciate how much good fortune

(01:33:17):
and luck plays in what's goingto happen to you.
Be patient with that and whenyou have your moments of success
, cherish them.
It's going to be okay.
It's like again, it's justnever as good or bad as they
seem and go to sleep.

(01:33:39):
Go to sleep and then wake uptomorrow and keep on going.

It's going to be okay.
That's beautiful, that's theadvice I give and that really
goes back to the meaning of theword perspective.
And I think I just had thisdiscussion with one of my young
fellows and I said look, a lotof things that happens to us in
life.

(01:34:04):
We don't know how to interpretit at that time.
We understand the meaning of itlater and I think we're not
supposed to understand that thatmoment, because the fact that
we don't understand it gives usthis genuine, almost childish
curiosity to explore and that'swhy that's the driving force

(01:34:28):
that moves us forward as youngentrepreneurs.
And if it wasn't for that, wewouldn't explore with the
curiosity, the energy and somesort of naivete that we have and
we wouldn't evolve and grow.
And I think, knowing that and Itruly believe in what I just
said and is that I wouldn't wantto talk to my own self from in

(01:34:59):
40 years with much moreperspective, because I feel like
first of all, I might notbelieve what he said, but if I
did, I think it would kill mycuriosity and it would almost
kill my drive.
And I think it's just part ofhow life goes and how it's
supposed to be and that's thebeauty of life.

(01:35:20):
And I just came to thatconclusion not too long ago
because I always asked thisquestion to my podcast guest,
thinking that, ah, wouldn't begreat if we just could go back
and talk to our own selves withthe knowledge and perspective we

(01:35:40):
have today.
But now I think I don't thinkwe're supposed to.
We're supposed to know all ofthis stuff, because that's the
very thing that feeds ourcuriosity.
We're supposed to make thosemistakes and our ambition and
our drive will keep moving usforward, and that's the beauty
of every entrepreneurial story.

Lon Levin (01:36:02):
Well anyway, well said and I agree.

All right, I hope you enjoyed the conversation
with one and only, lon Levin,the co-founder and inventor of
XM Radio and Satellite Radio aswe know it today, and please
stay tuned for another episodein the future with Lon Levin, as
we have a lot of things todiscuss, all the way from music

(01:36:29):
to sci-fi and entrepreneurship.
This was the Dario Hammerpodcast, and until next time.

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Shaping the Future: Inside the Mind of XM-Satellite Radio Co-founder - Lon Levin

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Shaping the Future: Inside the Mind of XM-Satellite Radio Co-founder - Lon Levin