July 15, 2025 • 23 mins
Our Free Life Without Payments Workshop is on July 15th. You can sign up here: https://www.debtfreedad.com/pl/2148605132
Subscribe to Simplify My Money: https://www.debtfreedad.com/newsletters/simplify-my-money
In this episode of the Debt-Free Dad podcast, host Brad Nelson discusses the power of gamifying your financial journey. Joined by co-hosts Amber Taylor, Katie Hatfield, and Chris Hawkins, they share their personal financial success stories and dive into tactics to make saving money, paying off debt, and staying on track feel motivating and enjoyable. The episode highlights how small wins and progress tracking can transform the often tedious process of managing finances into an engaging and fulfilling experience. Listen in for practical tips, relatable anecdotes, and creative ideas to challenge yourself and make strides toward financial freedom.
The Totally Awesome Debt Freedom Planner https://www.debtfreedad.com/planner
Connect With Brad
Website- https://www.debtfreedad.com
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/thedebtfreedad
Private Facebook Group - https://www.facebook.com/groups/debtfreedad
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/debtfreedad/
TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@debt_free_dad
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@bradnelson-debtfreedad2751/featured
Thanks For Listening
Like what you hear? Please, subscribe on the platform you listen to most: Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Tune-In, Stitcher, YouTube Music, YouTube
We LOVE feedback, and also helps us grow our podcast! Please leave us an honest review in Apple Podcasts, we read every single one.
Is there someone that you think would benefit from the Debt Free Dad podcast? Please, share this episode with them on your favorite social network!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brad Nelson (00:00):
So have you ever noticed how easy it is to stay
hooked on games, whether it beWordle fitness apps or those
silly mobile games with levelsand streaks?
That's because they makeprogress feel exciting.
You always know the next stepand even small wins feel like a
big deal.
Now imagine if your financesworked the exact same way.
(00:21):
So in today's episode, we'regoing to be talking about how
you can gamify your money, howto make saving, paying off debt
and staying on track actuallyfeel fun and motivating, and
even, should I say, addicting attimes.
Because, let's face it, whenmoney feels like a grind, it's
easy to give up, but when itfeels like a game you want to
(00:41):
win, that's when things start tochange.
Announcer (00:47):
You're listening to the Debt-Free Dad Podcast with
Brad Nelson.
Brad and his co-hostsexperience the anxiety of living
paycheck to paycheck beforelearning the fundamentals of
financial success.
They are now on a mission toempower regular people to pay
off their debt for good andenjoy happier, less stressful
lives.
Keep listening forinspirational interviews, tips,
(01:09):
tricks and practical advice togain financial freedom.
Brad Nelson (01:13):
Hey guys, welcome to today's episode.
My name is Brad Nelson, founderof Debt Free Dad.
I paid off about $45,000 ofdebt.
I've been debt free now formore than 12 years.
I've also been fortunate tohelp thousands of other people
save and pay off tens ofmillions of dollars with the
work that we do here atDebt-Free Debt.
Amber Taylor (01:28):
And my name is Amber Taylor, and my husband and
I paid off $54,000 in debt injust 20 months and we've been
living debt-free outside of ourmortgage since 2018.
Kati Hatfield (01:39):
And I'm Katie Hatfield, and I am still on my
journey to debt freedom and inthe last seven years, on a
single income, I have paid offover $224,619 in debt and saved
a whole lot more.
Chris Hawkins (01:52):
I love it.
My name is Chris Hawkins and mywife started our journey back
in 2005.
And by 2008, we had paid offjust under $100,000 worth of
debt, and we've been debt-freeexcept for our house ever since.
Brad Nelson (02:07):
And again, after listening to this episode, if
you are ready to take things tothe next level, you want to
break free from living paycheckto paycheck, you want to reduce
financial stress, you want tobuild more savings, finally pay
off some debt for good, butagain, maybe you're not quite
sure where to get started.
We've created some incrediblefree resources here for you here
at Deffery Dad, and we'll besharing some details about some
(02:27):
of those later on in today'sepisode.
So, guys, today we're talkingall about gamification, and I
love this because a lot ofpeople, I think they miss the
power of doing this.
They miss the power of tracking, gamifying their money.
We've talked about it a lot onthis podcast.
It's something that we putinside our membership roots
(02:47):
because it takes the boringness,or at least a lot of the
boringness, out of your financesand it makes it fun, right, and
I think it taps in, obviously,to the psychological side of our
brains, which are wired forthings like rewards, streaks,
leveling up and progress.
Like we mentioned, these gamesthat you play on your phone or
your tablet.
(03:08):
I've got one.
It's like a little block game,in fact.
My daughter downloaded it.
I don't really play it, butI've played it with her and all
of a sudden I'm addicted to it.
I'm like, oh yeah, I'm winning.
It throws out confetti when Iget to a new level and it makes
a new noise and psychologicallyagain, it makes you want to keep
going and keep playing, and youcan kind of do a lot of the
(03:28):
same types of things with yourfinances as well.
Amber Taylor (03:31):
When we were getting out of debt.
I was making Before Brad, youput out your planner and you put
out the game board and stufflike that in Roots.
But I was making my owntrackers where we were coloring
in when we would pay somethingoff and we would celebrate that
every time we did that.
And then we even did it forsavings, when we started saving
for our house and it gotaddicting, where we were like,
(03:51):
oh my gosh, I need to color thenext box.
How do I get there?
How fast can I do it?
What else can I do?
How else can I get this money?
And we were just like pushingthrough it and pushing through
it so that we could just colorin these boxes.
And, as silly and simple as itsounds, it made a huge
difference.
Brad Nelson (04:06):
Yeah, for sure.
And the other thing I keep inmind too, is that this is why,
like credit card companies, oreven the credit score, so to
speak, is so prevalent, whileit's so popular you look at
credit card points and rewards.
These companies are usinggamification.
I guess you could say againstyou in a way, but to encourage
you to play the game right.
(04:28):
Play the rewards game, play thepoints game, the credit score.
How do I get the best creditscore?
What are the ways it makes it agame?
It makes it fun.
That's why people focus onthose types of things.
Kati Hatfield (04:39):
Yeah, I fell for that because my insurance
company offered a banking creditcard and they're like well, if
you pay your insurance premiumusing this credit card, you'll
get 3% back.
But then it took me severalyears to figure out but I'm
paying 19 plus interest.
Percentage-wise, I'm not makinganything back, I am just losing
(05:04):
money left over right withinterest.
So I fell for that.
But when I joined Roots, I wasvery excited about the snowball
stickers and I'm like okay, howmany balls can I be throwing
this week?
Brad Nelson (05:17):
Yeah, and we tell people that all the time.
When you get in Roots, we sendyou a.
You know, if you join, we sendyou a membership kit and the
membership kit comes with allthese little cool trackers,
stickers and all that stuff.
And we don't send it becauseit's cute, we send it because
it's a game.
We want to make it a game.
We want to make it fun, right,because in most cases, a lot of
the stuff that we talk about onthis podcast it isn't fun, it
isn't sexy, it isn't excitingevery day, but, like Katie said,
(05:39):
it's something as simple aspeeling off a sticker and
sticking it on your tracker.
It gives you a little boost,right, like we're accomplishing
something, we're doing something.
It's that emotional trigger,not necessarily always just
about the dollars and the centsand the interest rates, but it's
just getting that little bonusright and, again, making it a
game.
Chris Hawkins (05:59):
The topic of today's episode is probably, I
think, for me personallypersonally Now, my wife would
probably disagree with this thiswas I've played sports since I
was five years old, right, andyou know football, baseball
ended up playing.
You know high school footballand baseball wrestled, played
college football.
(06:20):
So everything was a competition.
For me, everything was aboutgaining more points than the
other team, right, everythingwas about gaining more points
than the other team, right.
If you get more points than theother team, you win.
But then I started thinkingabout my debt.
I'm like, good gracious, that's$100,000 worth of debt or just
under it.
That's a lot of money.
And I got to thinking about well, how can I gamify this?
(06:40):
And this was long before therewas a term that I'd ever heard
called gamification.
And for me it became okay.
If I could find a way to get $1and pay off $1 worth of debt,
that's like a point.
But then you go well, there'sstill $100,000 worth of points.
I've got to come up with.
It doesn't change the numbers,right?
So for me I started thinking allright, well, how can I come up
(07:00):
with a hundred dollars?
A hundred dollars seems muchmore manageable than a hundred
thousand dollars.
And if I could come up with ahundred dollars once, I could
come up with a hundred dollarstwice.
And if I can do it twice, I cando it three times.
And that became the game for me.
And so I treated it as I neededa hundred thousand points, but
I needed to get them.
You know, in football you getsix points at a time.
(07:21):
If you score a touchdown, ifyou get a field goal, you get
three points, right.
You know, if you get a basketin basketball, it's two points.
So for me it was just a matterof how can I come up with 100
bucks?
And that's sort of how Igamified things, because I
looked at it like I've just gotto find a thousand ways to come
up with 100 bucks.
You still think about it.
That's a lot, but at but atleast a hundred seems manageable
(07:47):
, a thousand seems manageable.
And that, to me, is how Igamified it.
And so it became how can I comeup with an extra 50 bucks or an
extra a hundred bucks or anextra 20 bucks?
Cause it was all about gettingthe next hundred, if that makes
sense.
Announcer (07:56):
Yeah.
Chris Hawkins (07:56):
Okay, and that became the game within itself,
and so my competition becamemyself right.
I wasn't competing against mywife, I wasn't competing against
the neighbor, I wasn'tcompeting against my brother or
anybody else, and it was a newkind of game for me and it was
very interesting.
It became a challenge formyself to beat myself.
(08:18):
Yeah.
All right, how fast can I comeup with the next $100?
And I looked anywhere andeverywhere.
I became very creativeno-transcript so that I knew
(08:44):
that I would have money leftover in my food budget or my
food envelope at the end of thepay period All kinds of ways I
mentioned on a podcast episoderecently.
I made my own laundry detergentfor a while.
That was part of the game.
Now people probably laugh atthat and go, oh my gosh, I would
never go to that level.
I laughed at it.
I mean I could tell you everystretch between work and home
(09:09):
where there was a half a mile ofdownhill that I could put my
car in neutral and let it rolldown the hill so that I could
save money on gas.
I mean I never went out to doone thing.
I never went out to do twothings.
I had to make sure that I wasdoing three or more things to
make it worthwhile going to get,you know, to spend the money on
the gas.
Now I know that seems extreme,but that was the game that I was
(09:34):
playing against myself and Idon't think people have to go to
that extreme per se.
But if you can break it downinto, you've heard me say this
before, brad.
Maybe get a picture of somegoal that you have in life and
spend 20 bucks to have a puzzle,a jigsaw puzzle, made.
There's custom jigsaw puzzleplaces online.
(09:56):
Let them send you a thousandpiece puzzle and assign a dollar
value to each piece, and everytime you pay off let's say it's
10 bucks you get to put anotherpiece of the puzzle together and
you get to visually see verymuch like a debt snowball,
except for the opposite, thedebt snowball.
You're marking stuff off thelist.
Here you're seeing more of yourvision become available.
(10:16):
There's so many ways to gamify.
I know that in your debt-freeplanner you've got some
gamification tools there.
I think as well.
But it was the number one keyfor me because it made it
challenging, it made it fun andit made it competitive.
And now, for the first time inmy life, I was competing against
myself.
I know that's long winded, buthopefully, that helps?
Brad Nelson (10:35):
No for sure, I think.
The key thing there, I think isfor a lot of people, is like
when you sit back, like Katie,you could probably talk to this.
I mean, you paid off what Over$220,000 now.
But if you were to go back onday one and look at that as a
whole, overwhelming, like howthe heck am I ever going to pay
all that off?
But when you break it down intomuch smaller pieces and like
(10:58):
Chris, you mentioned, breakingit down like just break it down
to like $100 equals a point orwhatever dollar value you want
to count Looking at $100 versus$220,000 is much more manageable
.
It's achievable.
I can pay off the next $100 orwe can find a way to get another
$100.
So I think that in itselfcreates just a lot more momentum
(11:20):
and motivation and hope, ratherthan looking at your entire
situation.
Or when you get that creditcard bill and it's $8,000
balance I can remember one thatI had.
It was just like how the heckam I ever going to pay this all
off?
But again, if you break it downinto smaller pieces, it becomes
much more manageable.
Kati Hatfield (11:35):
Yeah, I definitely had to break it down
because I think my biggestcredit card at the time was
around $8,000 or something.
I'm like there is no way I'mever going to get that paid off.
But if I could do the smallercredit cards balances, because I
was one of those oh, a 0%interest offer came up.
I'm just going to transfer itto this card and I know I'll pay
(11:57):
it off before the grace periodand whatever.
And yeah, that never happened.
So I had all these credit cardsand all these minimum payments
due.
So it was a lot.
So I did a lot of the minutethings like Chris did, although
I tried to do laundry in mybathtub and there was no amount
of bringing out clothes thatwill ever get them dry like a
(12:20):
dryer.
My apartment at the timesmelled like a laundromat and I
had clothes just hangingeverywhere.
I don't I don't recommend that,um as far as it goes.
But I used a lot of apps forcoupons or, uh, money off if you
turn in your receipts and thegas buddy app to make sure
what's the least expensive gasin the area so I can drive
(12:43):
straight to the one that's thelowest price right now and
what's got a deal with 16 centsoff a gallon versus the regular
three to five cents.
So yeah, every single one ofthose things adds up, especially
in the beginning where you'relike all right, I just saved
like $1.68 on gas, I'll take it.
And it really does getaddicting because now I'm like
(13:05):
all right, my paycheck isdeposited in my account, let's
pay the bills.
And before I'd be like.
I hope this doesn't clear beforemy paycheck hits the account
Right.
It was also the queen ofoverdraft fees back then.
So, yeah, every little thinghelps.
Whatever it makes sense in yourmind to have as a win, you just
got to kind of go with allthose little dopamine hits along
(13:29):
the way.
Chris Hawkins (13:29):
Yeah so she said something that it triggered
something that I did.
I couldn't wait to get paid.
Why?
Because I knew it meant achance to get some more points
yeah right.
So the payday became a verydifferent day of the month.
It had a totally differentmeaning.
It's like oh boy, now I get topay off more debt.
Yes, and you're looking at thatdebt snowball going.
(13:51):
How close am I to that next one?
And then you get within acouple hundred points.
You're like all right, now it'sserious, I got to get top of my
game.
What other unique ways can Icome up with?
Because I don't want thatlingering around the next month.
I want to find the money.
Amber Taylor (14:09):
People are probably listening to this and
going uh that doesn't sound funat all.
Chris Hawkins (14:12):
It is.
I'm telling you it can be.
Amber Taylor (14:13):
At least it was for me but I could relate to you
completely because I did thesame thing when I was paying off
my debt.
It was like it was payday moneywas coming into the account.
Like what am I paying now?
Because this is getting fun?
Brad Nelson (14:24):
I can't say I ever did my laundry in my bathtub.
Kati Hatfield (14:28):
I had two people on either end of a pair of jeans
, just like squeezing as hard aswe could to get the water out.
Chris Hawkins (14:36):
You can laugh all you want, but how much less
debt do you have now?
Kati Hatfield (14:39):
227,000, 24,000 plus.
Chris Hawkins (14:44):
At the end of the day, we can be laughing, but
you're, you're, you're going tolook at that, as that's what it
took to get there.
Brad Nelson (14:49):
That's right.
Well, and I think that's thething I was going to bring up my
next topic.
You guys kind of took it rightout of my mouth.
It encourages you to challengeyourself and come up with ways
to stretch it, make it better,right, and you guys have all
said some great things puttingit in neutral downhill.
I've done that.
(15:13):
I've done some crazy putting itin neutral down, but it is.
It becomes addicting.
You become addicted to the wins, you become addicted to getting
that next point, and that's whyit's so important.
I think that, again, this iswhy I wanted to make this
podcast episode, because there'sso many people who just miss
the power of tracking andgamifying, and it can provide so
much motivation and to help youstart tackling.
It's amazing, but yeah, anyother weird things though.
So we got laundry in thebathtub putting a neutral going
(15:34):
downhill.
Amber, you got any.
Amber Taylor (15:37):
No, but what I want to share is actually a
savings one that we had membersdoing in Roots, where him and
his wife would each have likethis savings goal.
Oh yeah, and laurie, I rememberyou know, like you have 40 this
week, I have 40 this week and itwas just for their.
If we want to stop at the storeand buy something, just the fun
(15:57):
money right, and they wouldliterally compete until the end
of the week and they would comeback and go how much money do
you have left?
And it was just a friendly fun.
But whoever had the most wonfor bragging rights, and what
they did with that money afterwas just they put it into
savings because we didn't spendit.
So let's reward ourselves andadd it to our savings, and I
(16:18):
thought that that was reallycool and a great way to just
gamify what they were trying toachieve.
Chris Hawkins (16:24):
Yeah, Listen, I started cutting my own hair for
a while.
I mean, I do it.
I do it again now because Ihave so little of it, right.
But at the time when I did getmy hair cut, it was probably
once every three or four months,because you know, less often to
the barbershop, the less moneyyou spend.
But eventually it's like I canbuy this $20 pair of clippers
over here and just do it myself.
It's not the greatest hairdo inthe world.
(16:45):
Now, again, I have very littlehair, so I'm back to doing it,
but for a totally differentreason.
I could probably think of athousand things some little,
some small that I did just tosave a few bucks here and there.
Brad Nelson (16:55):
But it worked, yeah , and sometimes, like for me, I
pick the obvious one.
I just worked more, I put in asmany hours as I could and tried
to earn the bonuses that thecurrent you know the employer
that I was working with.
I just tried to do everything Icould just to make extra money.
And again, like you guys said,once it's payday, it's like it
just meant that I got to pay offthat much more debt and so I
(17:18):
can't think of anything crazy,crazy.
That you, I think you guysmentioned is so fun.
I love it, but it does it.
It challenges you.
It gets you to open your mindup a little bit more and saying
what else could we do?
What else could we do to pushthe pedal down just a little bit
more and again to challengeyourself.
I think the other thing too,amber, you mentioned with Daniel
(17:39):
and Lori and their story isjust the power of just having
competition too, and not in abad way competition, not looking
at someone like I wanna bebetter than them.
But I think this is one of thecool parts that comes from being
in a community like we've builtin Roots is that you're seeing
other people get these greatwins and you wanna get those
great wins.
It encourages you to thinkoutside the box and do things.
(18:00):
That's one of the reasons whywe talk about people's wins on
this podcast.
We're a big proponent oftalking about the wins inside
Roots because it's great tocelebrate them, but it also
gives other people ideas ofthings that they could do,
things that they could improveon, question themselves,
challenge themselves based onwhat other people are doing.
So some of that friendlycompetition can go a long way.
Chris Hawkins (18:22):
I'd like to put this out there, brad, I suspect
that Katie and I are not theonly two to do some very, very
weird things.
Brad Nelson (18:30):
No question.
The other part about this wholegamification is also the
importance of rewarding yourselftoo.
Now, did you guys ever have, orgive yourself little rewards?
For me, it was always like atreat of going out to eat, and
because that was I love doingthat, I had to cut it out like a
lot.
Almost when I love doing that,I had to cut it out like a lot.
Almost.
When I first started I had tocut it out completely because I
was just didn't have any money.
(18:50):
But for me, once I startedgetting those wins, once I
started paying off debt, once Istarted being able to save money
, going out to eat, going backand going to the places that I
love to go was just what.
You appreciated it more, youloved it more and it just felt
so much better.
It was a reward.
I've earned it.
Chris Hawkins (19:07):
I personally was not very much of a reward myself
until the game was finished.
But again, I'm a little morehardcore.
I get that, and that's thedanger perhaps for some of you
out there.
If you find yourself doing toomuch and it means that you're
going to stop doing what you'redoing, then back off a little
bit.
You've got to play your gameand you've got to play it with
your rules and the way that youwant to do it.
(19:27):
But for me, the end goal was toget out of debt and that became
the only reward that I couldfocus on.
But again, I'm probably ultracompetitive, so I'm probably not
a good person to ask.
Amber Taylor (19:40):
We rewarded ourselves with activities If it
was a trip or just going out toeat, kind of like you, Brad.
But I was at a point where Iwas like we're going to pay off
this debt in 13 months andeventually we got burned out a
little bit and I was like, nah,we can't do that, Forget this.
So we rewarded ourselves, Likeonce we hit certain milestone,
we paid for a trip and that kindof thing.
Kati Hatfield (19:59):
So we just spanned it out a little bit more
, but that helped us a lot and Idon't go out to eat unless I
can walk there and pick it upmyself.
So I don't ever do deliveryfees or DoorDash or any of those
kind of where you're alreadypaying more for the food plus
the tip, plus the delivery, pluseverything else.
So I'm like if I'm going out toeat I have to be able to walk
(20:22):
there and the closest place is amile and a half round trip.
So I'm burning the calories butalso rewarding myself with the
dining out, just making a littlemore of a stretch for myself.
Brad Nelson (20:34):
Yeah, all right guys, if you are ready to break
free from living paycheck topaycheck, you want to reduce
financial stress, build asavings and finally pay off your
debt for good.
But again, maybe you're notsure where to get started.
Don't worry, we've got youcovered.
Simplify my Money is sent toyou each and every Sunday to
your email.
It is your step-by-step roadmapto better financial control,
(20:55):
and you're also going to learnsome easy to follow strategies
to manage your money effectivelyStress-free money decisions
that are going to help yousimplify your financial life
with proven tips that actuallywork for normal people, and
you're going to gain the toolsand confidence to tackle your
financial goals head on you cansign up for.
Chris Hawkins (21:22):
Simplify my Money .
The good things, all the badthings that may be.
Let's talk about debt.
Let's talk about debt Tune intoDebt Free Debt.
Amber Taylor (21:36):
Tune into Debt, free Debt, and that's how it
means it's time for thecelebrations of the show.
First, we have Andrea.
I have an emergency fund of$1,000.
I've never had anything likethis before.
Yeah, we have Andrea.
I have an emergency fund of$1,000.
I've never had anything likethis before.
Brad Nelson (21:49):
Yeah, that is awesome.
Such a great feeling.
Great, great win, andrea, andthen Stacy.
We have a cooked dinner at homeall week.
This is huge for us, awesomejob.
Chris Hawkins (22:00):
And Brenda says I have paid off a small credit
card.
I have started going to yardsales to see if there are any
crafts for sale, trying to get afew together for Christmas, and
I have about $300 saved alreadyfor Christmas.
Kati Hatfield (22:16):
Which is awesome because we're recording this in
June.
So she is on her game.
Way to go.
Brad Nelson (22:21):
Brenda.
Kati Hatfield (22:22):
Awesome.
And Holly has been cleaninghouses as a side job for extra
money, so again earning thosepoints to gamify towards her
debt.
Brad Nelson (22:32):
Yeah, absolutely hey, guys.
As always, congratulations toall of you who are taking a
stand for your financial lifeand you are wanting better.
Hey, we get that.
Getting out of debt isn't easy,but with our help and with your
consistency and discipline, wepromise you, guys, this will be
some of the best work you do inyour entire life.
Thanks for joining us ontoday's show and we will see you
, guys on the next episode.
Announcer (22:58):
Thanks for listening to the Debt-Free Dad podcast.
Connect with us on Facebook,tiktok, youtube and Instagram.
Just search Debt-Free Dad.
If you found value in today'sepisode, please leave us a
rating and review.
We so appreciate it Forresources, show notes and links
mentioned in today's show.
Visit DebtFreeDadcom.
(23:19):
Catch you next week.
So have you ever noticed how easy it is to stay
hooked on games, whether it beWordle fitness apps or those
silly mobile games with levelsand streaks?
That's because they makeprogress feel exciting.
You always know the next stepand even small wins feel like a
big deal.
Now imagine if your financesworked the exact same way.
(00:21):
So in today's episode, we'regoing to be talking about how
you can gamify your money, howto make saving, paying off debt
and staying on track actuallyfeel fun and motivating, and
even, should I say, addicting attimes.
Because, let's face it, whenmoney feels like a grind, it's
easy to give up, but when itfeels like a game you want to
(00:41):
win, that's when things start tochange.
Announcer (00:47):
You're listening to the Debt-Free Dad Podcast with
Brad Nelson.
Brad and his co-hostsexperience the anxiety of living
paycheck to paycheck beforelearning the fundamentals of
financial success.
They are now on a mission toempower regular people to pay
off their debt for good andenjoy happier, less stressful
lives.
Keep listening forinspirational interviews, tips,
(01:09):
tricks and practical advice togain financial freedom.
Brad Nelson (01:13):
Hey guys, welcome to today's episode.
My name is Brad Nelson, founderof Debt Free Dad.
I paid off about $45,000 ofdebt.
I've been debt free now formore than 12 years.
I've also been fortunate tohelp thousands of other people
save and pay off tens ofmillions of dollars with the
work that we do here atDebt-Free Debt.
Amber Taylor (01:28):
And my name is Amber Taylor, and my husband and
I paid off $54,000 in debt injust 20 months and we've been
living debt-free outside of ourmortgage since 2018.
Kati Hatfield (01:39):
And I'm Katie Hatfield, and I am still on my
journey to debt freedom and inthe last seven years, on a
single income, I have paid offover $224,619 in debt and saved
a whole lot more.
Chris Hawkins (01:52):
I love it.
My name is Chris Hawkins and mywife started our journey back
in 2005.
And by 2008, we had paid offjust under $100,000 worth of
debt, and we've been debt-freeexcept for our house ever since.
Brad Nelson (02:07):
And again, after listening to this episode, if
you are ready to take things tothe next level, you want to
break free from living paycheckto paycheck, you want to reduce
financial stress, you want tobuild more savings, finally pay
off some debt for good, butagain, maybe you're not quite
sure where to get started.
We've created some incrediblefree resources here for you here
at Deffery Dad, and we'll besharing some details about some
(02:27):
of those later on in today'sepisode.
So, guys, today we're talkingall about gamification, and I
love this because a lot ofpeople, I think they miss the
power of doing this.
They miss the power of tracking, gamifying their money.
We've talked about it a lot onthis podcast.
It's something that we putinside our membership roots
(02:47):
because it takes the boringness,or at least a lot of the
boringness, out of your financesand it makes it fun, right, and
I think it taps in, obviously,to the psychological side of our
brains, which are wired forthings like rewards, streaks,
leveling up and progress.
Like we mentioned, these gamesthat you play on your phone or
your tablet.
(03:08):
I've got one.
It's like a little block game,in fact.
My daughter downloaded it.
I don't really play it, butI've played it with her and all
of a sudden I'm addicted to it.
I'm like, oh yeah, I'm winning.
It throws out confetti when Iget to a new level and it makes
a new noise and psychologicallyagain, it makes you want to keep
going and keep playing, and youcan kind of do a lot of the
(03:28):
same types of things with yourfinances as well.
Amber Taylor (03:31):
When we were getting out of debt.
I was making Before Brad, youput out your planner and you put
out the game board and stufflike that in Roots.
But I was making my owntrackers where we were coloring
in when we would pay somethingoff and we would celebrate that
every time we did that.
And then we even did it forsavings, when we started saving
for our house and it gotaddicting, where we were like,
(03:51):
oh my gosh, I need to color thenext box.
How do I get there?
How fast can I do it?
What else can I do?
How else can I get this money?
And we were just like pushingthrough it and pushing through
it so that we could just colorin these boxes.
And, as silly and simple as itsounds, it made a huge
difference.
Brad Nelson (04:06):
Yeah, for sure.
And the other thing I keep inmind too, is that this is why,
like credit card companies, oreven the credit score, so to
speak, is so prevalent, whileit's so popular you look at
credit card points and rewards.
These companies are usinggamification.
I guess you could say againstyou in a way, but to encourage
you to play the game right.
(04:28):
Play the rewards game, play thepoints game, the credit score.
How do I get the best creditscore?
What are the ways it makes it agame?
It makes it fun.
That's why people focus onthose types of things.
Kati Hatfield (04:39):
Yeah, I fell for that because my insurance
company offered a banking creditcard and they're like well, if
you pay your insurance premiumusing this credit card, you'll
get 3% back.
But then it took me severalyears to figure out but I'm
paying 19 plus interest.
Percentage-wise, I'm not makinganything back, I am just losing
(05:04):
money left over right withinterest.
So I fell for that.
But when I joined Roots, I wasvery excited about the snowball
stickers and I'm like okay, howmany balls can I be throwing
this week?
Brad Nelson (05:17):
Yeah, and we tell people that all the time.
When you get in Roots, we sendyou a.
You know, if you join, we sendyou a membership kit and the
membership kit comes with allthese little cool trackers,
stickers and all that stuff.
And we don't send it becauseit's cute, we send it because
it's a game.
We want to make it a game.
We want to make it fun, right,because in most cases, a lot of
the stuff that we talk about onthis podcast it isn't fun, it
isn't sexy, it isn't excitingevery day, but, like Katie said,
(05:39):
it's something as simple aspeeling off a sticker and
sticking it on your tracker.
It gives you a little boost,right, like we're accomplishing
something, we're doing something.
It's that emotional trigger,not necessarily always just
about the dollars and the centsand the interest rates, but it's
just getting that little bonusright and, again, making it a
game.
Chris Hawkins (05:59):
The topic of today's episode is probably, I
think, for me personallypersonally Now, my wife would
probably disagree with this thiswas I've played sports since I
was five years old, right, andyou know football, baseball
ended up playing.
You know high school footballand baseball wrestled, played
college football.
(06:20):
So everything was a competition.
For me, everything was aboutgaining more points than the
other team, right, everythingwas about gaining more points
than the other team, right.
If you get more points than theother team, you win.
But then I started thinkingabout my debt.
I'm like, good gracious, that's$100,000 worth of debt or just
under it.
That's a lot of money.
And I got to thinking about well, how can I gamify this?
(06:40):
And this was long before therewas a term that I'd ever heard
called gamification.
And for me it became okay.
If I could find a way to get $1and pay off $1 worth of debt,
that's like a point.
But then you go well, there'sstill $100,000 worth of points.
I've got to come up with.
It doesn't change the numbers,right?
So for me I started thinking allright, well, how can I come up
(07:00):
with a hundred dollars?
A hundred dollars seems muchmore manageable than a hundred
thousand dollars.
And if I could come up with ahundred dollars once, I could
come up with a hundred dollarstwice.
And if I can do it twice, I cando it three times.
And that became the game for me.
And so I treated it as I neededa hundred thousand points, but
I needed to get them.
You know, in football you getsix points at a time.
(07:21):
If you score a touchdown, ifyou get a field goal, you get
three points, right.
You know, if you get a basketin basketball, it's two points.
So for me it was just a matterof how can I come up with 100
bucks?
And that's sort of how Igamified things, because I
looked at it like I've just gotto find a thousand ways to come
up with 100 bucks.
You still think about it.
That's a lot, but at but atleast a hundred seems manageable
(07:47):
, a thousand seems manageable.
And that, to me, is how Igamified it.
And so it became how can I comeup with an extra 50 bucks or an
extra a hundred bucks or anextra 20 bucks?
Cause it was all about gettingthe next hundred, if that makes
sense.
Announcer (07:56):
Yeah.
Chris Hawkins (07:56):
Okay, and that became the game within itself,
and so my competition becamemyself right.
I wasn't competing against mywife, I wasn't competing against
the neighbor, I wasn'tcompeting against my brother or
anybody else, and it was a newkind of game for me and it was
very interesting.
It became a challenge formyself to beat myself.
(08:18):
Yeah.
All right, how fast can I comeup with the next $100?
And I looked anywhere andeverywhere.
I became very creativeno-transcript so that I knew
(08:44):
that I would have money leftover in my food budget or my
food envelope at the end of thepay period All kinds of ways I
mentioned on a podcast episoderecently.
I made my own laundry detergentfor a while.
That was part of the game.
Now people probably laugh atthat and go, oh my gosh, I would
never go to that level.
I laughed at it.
I mean I could tell you everystretch between work and home
(09:09):
where there was a half a mile ofdownhill that I could put my
car in neutral and let it rolldown the hill so that I could
save money on gas.
I mean I never went out to doone thing.
I never went out to do twothings.
I had to make sure that I wasdoing three or more things to
make it worthwhile going to get,you know, to spend the money on
the gas.
Now I know that seems extreme,but that was the game that I was
(09:34):
playing against myself and Idon't think people have to go to
that extreme per se.
But if you can break it downinto, you've heard me say this
before, brad.
Maybe get a picture of somegoal that you have in life and
spend 20 bucks to have a puzzle,a jigsaw puzzle, made.
There's custom jigsaw puzzleplaces online.
(09:56):
Let them send you a thousandpiece puzzle and assign a dollar
value to each piece, and everytime you pay off let's say it's
10 bucks you get to put anotherpiece of the puzzle together and
you get to visually see verymuch like a debt snowball,
except for the opposite, thedebt snowball.
You're marking stuff off thelist.
Here you're seeing more of yourvision become available.
(10:16):
There's so many ways to gamify.
I know that in your debt-freeplanner you've got some
gamification tools there.
I think as well.
But it was the number one keyfor me because it made it
challenging, it made it fun andit made it competitive.
And now, for the first time inmy life, I was competing against
myself.
I know that's long winded, buthopefully, that helps?
Brad Nelson (10:35):
No for sure, I think.
The key thing there, I think isfor a lot of people, is like
when you sit back, like Katie,you could probably talk to this.
I mean, you paid off what Over$220,000 now.
But if you were to go back onday one and look at that as a
whole, overwhelming, like howthe heck am I ever going to pay
all that off?
But when you break it down intomuch smaller pieces and like
(10:58):
Chris, you mentioned, breakingit down like just break it down
to like $100 equals a point orwhatever dollar value you want
to count Looking at $100 versus$220,000 is much more manageable
.
It's achievable.
I can pay off the next $100 orwe can find a way to get another
$100.
So I think that in itselfcreates just a lot more momentum
(11:20):
and motivation and hope, ratherthan looking at your entire
situation.
Or when you get that creditcard bill and it's $8,000
balance I can remember one thatI had.
It was just like how the heckam I ever going to pay this all
off?
But again, if you break it downinto smaller pieces, it becomes
much more manageable.
Kati Hatfield (11:35):
Yeah, I definitely had to break it down
because I think my biggestcredit card at the time was
around $8,000 or something.
I'm like there is no way I'mever going to get that paid off.
But if I could do the smallercredit cards balances, because I
was one of those oh, a 0%interest offer came up.
I'm just going to transfer itto this card and I know I'll pay
(11:57):
it off before the grace periodand whatever.
And yeah, that never happened.
So I had all these credit cardsand all these minimum payments
due.
So it was a lot.
So I did a lot of the minutethings like Chris did, although
I tried to do laundry in mybathtub and there was no amount
of bringing out clothes thatwill ever get them dry like a
(12:20):
dryer.
My apartment at the timesmelled like a laundromat and I
had clothes just hangingeverywhere.
I don't I don't recommend that,um as far as it goes.
But I used a lot of apps forcoupons or, uh, money off if you
turn in your receipts and thegas buddy app to make sure
what's the least expensive gasin the area so I can drive
(12:43):
straight to the one that's thelowest price right now and
what's got a deal with 16 centsoff a gallon versus the regular
three to five cents.
So yeah, every single one ofthose things adds up, especially
in the beginning where you'relike all right, I just saved
like $1.68 on gas, I'll take it.
And it really does getaddicting because now I'm like
(13:05):
all right, my paycheck isdeposited in my account, let's
pay the bills.
And before I'd be like.
I hope this doesn't clear beforemy paycheck hits the account
Right.
It was also the queen ofoverdraft fees back then.
So, yeah, every little thinghelps.
Whatever it makes sense in yourmind to have as a win, you just
got to kind of go with allthose little dopamine hits along
(13:29):
the way.
Chris Hawkins (13:29):
Yeah so she said something that it triggered
something that I did.
I couldn't wait to get paid.
Why?
Because I knew it meant achance to get some more points
yeah right.
So the payday became a verydifferent day of the month.
It had a totally differentmeaning.
It's like oh boy, now I get topay off more debt.
Yes, and you're looking at thatdebt snowball going.
(13:51):
How close am I to that next one?
And then you get within acouple hundred points.
You're like all right, now it'sserious, I got to get top of my
game.
What other unique ways can Icome up with?
Because I don't want thatlingering around the next month.
I want to find the money.
Amber Taylor (14:09):
People are probably listening to this and
going uh that doesn't sound funat all.
Chris Hawkins (14:12):
It is.
I'm telling you it can be.
Amber Taylor (14:13):
At least it was for me but I could relate to you
completely because I did thesame thing when I was paying off
my debt.
It was like it was payday moneywas coming into the account.
Like what am I paying now?
Because this is getting fun?
Brad Nelson (14:24):
I can't say I ever did my laundry in my bathtub.
Kati Hatfield (14:28):
I had two people on either end of a pair of jeans
, just like squeezing as hard aswe could to get the water out.
Chris Hawkins (14:36):
You can laugh all you want, but how much less
debt do you have now?
Kati Hatfield (14:39):
227,000, 24,000 plus.
Chris Hawkins (14:44):
At the end of the day, we can be laughing, but
you're, you're, you're going tolook at that, as that's what it
took to get there.
Brad Nelson (14:49):
That's right.
Well, and I think that's thething I was going to bring up my
next topic.
You guys kind of took it rightout of my mouth.
It encourages you to challengeyourself and come up with ways
to stretch it, make it better,right, and you guys have all
said some great things puttingit in neutral downhill.
I've done that.
(15:13):
I've done some crazy putting itin neutral down, but it is.
It becomes addicting.
You become addicted to the wins, you become addicted to getting
that next point, and that's whyit's so important.
I think that, again, this iswhy I wanted to make this
podcast episode, because there'sso many people who just miss
the power of tracking andgamifying, and it can provide so
much motivation and to help youstart tackling.
It's amazing, but yeah, anyother weird things though.
So we got laundry in thebathtub putting a neutral going
(15:34):
downhill.
Amber, you got any.
Amber Taylor (15:37):
No, but what I want to share is actually a
savings one that we had membersdoing in Roots, where him and
his wife would each have likethis savings goal.
Oh yeah, and laurie, I rememberyou know, like you have 40 this
week, I have 40 this week and itwas just for their.
If we want to stop at the storeand buy something, just the fun
(15:57):
money right, and they wouldliterally compete until the end
of the week and they would comeback and go how much money do
you have left?
And it was just a friendly fun.
But whoever had the most wonfor bragging rights, and what
they did with that money afterwas just they put it into
savings because we didn't spendit.
So let's reward ourselves andadd it to our savings, and I
(16:18):
thought that that was reallycool and a great way to just
gamify what they were trying toachieve.
Chris Hawkins (16:24):
Yeah, Listen, I started cutting my own hair for
a while.
I mean, I do it.
I do it again now because Ihave so little of it, right.
But at the time when I did getmy hair cut, it was probably
once every three or four months,because you know, less often to
the barbershop, the less moneyyou spend.
But eventually it's like I canbuy this $20 pair of clippers
over here and just do it myself.
It's not the greatest hairdo inthe world.
(16:45):
Now, again, I have very littlehair, so I'm back to doing it,
but for a totally differentreason.
I could probably think of athousand things some little,
some small that I did just tosave a few bucks here and there.
Brad Nelson (16:55):
But it worked, yeah , and sometimes, like for me, I
pick the obvious one.
I just worked more, I put in asmany hours as I could and tried
to earn the bonuses that thecurrent you know the employer
that I was working with.
I just tried to do everything Icould just to make extra money.
And again, like you guys said,once it's payday, it's like it
just meant that I got to pay offthat much more debt and so I
(17:18):
can't think of anything crazy,crazy.
That you, I think you guysmentioned is so fun.
I love it, but it does it.
It challenges you.
It gets you to open your mindup a little bit more and saying
what else could we do?
What else could we do to pushthe pedal down just a little bit
more and again to challengeyourself.
I think the other thing too,amber, you mentioned with Daniel
(17:39):
and Lori and their story isjust the power of just having
competition too, and not in abad way competition, not looking
at someone like I wanna bebetter than them.
But I think this is one of thecool parts that comes from being
in a community like we've builtin Roots is that you're seeing
other people get these greatwins and you wanna get those
great wins.
It encourages you to thinkoutside the box and do things.
(18:00):
That's one of the reasons whywe talk about people's wins on
this podcast.
We're a big proponent oftalking about the wins inside
Roots because it's great tocelebrate them, but it also
gives other people ideas ofthings that they could do,
things that they could improveon, question themselves,
challenge themselves based onwhat other people are doing.
So some of that friendlycompetition can go a long way.
Chris Hawkins (18:22):
I'd like to put this out there, brad, I suspect
that Katie and I are not theonly two to do some very, very
weird things.
Brad Nelson (18:30):
No question.
The other part about this wholegamification is also the
importance of rewarding yourselftoo.
Now, did you guys ever have, orgive yourself little rewards?
For me, it was always like atreat of going out to eat, and
because that was I love doingthat, I had to cut it out like a
lot.
Almost when I love doing that,I had to cut it out like a lot.
Almost.
When I first started I had tocut it out completely because I
was just didn't have any money.
(18:50):
But for me, once I startedgetting those wins, once I
started paying off debt, once Istarted being able to save money
, going out to eat, going backand going to the places that I
love to go was just what.
You appreciated it more, youloved it more and it just felt
so much better.
It was a reward.
I've earned it.
Chris Hawkins (19:07):
I personally was not very much of a reward myself
until the game was finished.
But again, I'm a little morehardcore.
I get that, and that's thedanger perhaps for some of you
out there.
If you find yourself doing toomuch and it means that you're
going to stop doing what you'redoing, then back off a little
bit.
You've got to play your gameand you've got to play it with
your rules and the way that youwant to do it.
(19:27):
But for me, the end goal was toget out of debt and that became
the only reward that I couldfocus on.
But again, I'm probably ultracompetitive, so I'm probably not
a good person to ask.
Amber Taylor (19:40):
We rewarded ourselves with activities If it
was a trip or just going out toeat, kind of like you, Brad.
But I was at a point where Iwas like we're going to pay off
this debt in 13 months andeventually we got burned out a
little bit and I was like, nah,we can't do that, Forget this.
So we rewarded ourselves, Likeonce we hit certain milestone,
we paid for a trip and that kindof thing.
Kati Hatfield (19:59):
So we just spanned it out a little bit more
, but that helped us a lot and Idon't go out to eat unless I
can walk there and pick it upmyself.
So I don't ever do deliveryfees or DoorDash or any of those
kind of where you're alreadypaying more for the food plus
the tip, plus the delivery, pluseverything else.
So I'm like if I'm going out toeat I have to be able to walk
(20:22):
there and the closest place is amile and a half round trip.
So I'm burning the calories butalso rewarding myself with the
dining out, just making a littlemore of a stretch for myself.
Brad Nelson (20:34):
Yeah, all right guys, if you are ready to break
free from living paycheck topaycheck, you want to reduce
financial stress, build asavings and finally pay off your
debt for good.
But again, maybe you're notsure where to get started.
Don't worry, we've got youcovered.
Simplify my Money is sent toyou each and every Sunday to
your email.
It is your step-by-step roadmapto better financial control,
(20:55):
and you're also going to learnsome easy to follow strategies
to manage your money effectivelyStress-free money decisions
that are going to help yousimplify your financial life
with proven tips that actuallywork for normal people, and
you're going to gain the toolsand confidence to tackle your
financial goals head on you cansign up for.
Chris Hawkins (21:22):
Simplify my Money .
The good things, all the badthings that may be.
Let's talk about debt.
Let's talk about debt Tune intoDebt Free Debt.
Amber Taylor (21:36):
Tune into Debt, free Debt, and that's how it
means it's time for thecelebrations of the show.
First, we have Andrea.
I have an emergency fund of$1,000.
I've never had anything likethis before.
Yeah, we have Andrea.
I have an emergency fund of$1,000.
I've never had anything likethis before.
Brad Nelson (21:49):
Yeah, that is awesome.
Such a great feeling.
Great, great win, andrea, andthen Stacy.
We have a cooked dinner at homeall week.
This is huge for us, awesomejob.
Chris Hawkins (22:00):
And Brenda says I have paid off a small credit
card.
I have started going to yardsales to see if there are any
crafts for sale, trying to get afew together for Christmas, and
I have about $300 saved alreadyfor Christmas.
Kati Hatfield (22:16):
Which is awesome because we're recording this in
June.
So she is on her game.
Way to go.
Brad Nelson (22:21):
Brenda.
Kati Hatfield (22:22):
Awesome.
And Holly has been cleaninghouses as a side job for extra
money, so again earning thosepoints to gamify towards her
debt.
Brad Nelson (22:32):
Yeah, absolutely hey, guys.
As always, congratulations toall of you who are taking a
stand for your financial lifeand you are wanting better.
Hey, we get that.
Getting out of debt isn't easy,but with our help and with your
consistency and discipline, wepromise you, guys, this will be
some of the best work you do inyour entire life.
Thanks for joining us ontoday's show and we will see you
, guys on the next episode.
Announcer (22:58):
Thanks for listening to the Debt-Free Dad podcast.
Connect with us on Facebook,tiktok, youtube and Instagram.
Just search Debt-Free Dad.
If you found value in today'sepisode, please leave us a
rating and review.
We so appreciate it Forresources, show notes and links
mentioned in today's show.
Visit DebtFreeDadcom.
(23:19):
Catch you next week.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.