Enter the contest for a Gold Pass ($1300 value!) to the Customer Success Festival in Austin (Feb 13 & 14, 2024) by following these steps:
- Review the podcast on your platform of choice and send a quick screenshot to alex@digitalcustomersuccess.com
- Go to this LinkedIn post and Like it: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7152780848642068480
- Leave a comment on that same post about what aspect of CS Festival you're most looking forward to or any questions comments you might have about the event.
Today's Guest Anika Zubair is a CS household name and award winning customer success leader who is constantly providing insanely valuable content to the community. She has led and scaled many functions throughout her career and is currently Head of Customer Success at Griffin.
There are so many valuable nuggets of information to pull away from our conversation in this episode including:
- Leveraging technology to meet our customers where they are with what they need
- Covid normalized digital engagement
- The resurgence of QR codes
- Transitioning from full-time gig to consulting and back
- The difficulty of the current job market
- Using ‘CS Trailers’ to solve for customer engagement via short form, TikTok style video and how this style aligns with how people are consuming content today
- Combining short videos (max 90 seconds) with analytics and strong call to actions can lead to strong customer engagement
- Practical example of a short onboarding flow
- Things like 'Spotify Wrapped' are HARD to get to but so effective if you do
- Celebrating customer wins and demonstrating value digitally
- It’s ok as B2B to communicate like B2C - we are all just human
Anika's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anikazubair/
Apps:
- Cast.app - Virtual Digital CSM
- Bagel - Tie product features to revenue opportunities and customer feedback
Content:
Shoutouts:
- Dan Ennis
- Jay Nathan
- Jeff Breunsbach
+++++++++
+++++++++++++++++
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If you are getting value from the show, please follow/subscribe so that you don't miss an episode and consider leaving us a review.
Website:
For more information about the show or to get in touch, visit DigitalCustomerSuccess.com.
Buy Alex a Cup of Coffee:
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Thank you for all of your support!
The Digital Customer Success Podcast is hosted by Alex Turkovic
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I find it always amazing because B2B or B2C were
all humans.
Like a business is created outof humans, the person you're
speaking to at the other endisn't Coca-Cola incorporated.
There is someone who there's ahuman on that other side.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
That is your customer .
It's just Bill.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And, once again, welcome to the Digital Customs
Success podcast with me, alexTurkovich.
So glad you could join us heretoday and every week as I seek
out and interview leaders andpractitioners who are innovating
and building great scaled CSprograms.
My goal is to share what I'velearned and to bring you along
with me for the ride so that youget the insights that you need
(00:41):
to build and evolve your owndigital CS program.
If you'd like more info, wantto get in touch or sign up for
the latest updates, go todigitalcustomsuccesscom, and if
you have a question orcommentary to be used in an
upcoming episode, call us andleave a message at 512-222-7381.
For now, let's get started.
(01:01):
Well, hello and welcome back tothe Digital Customer Success
podcast.
It's so great to have you.
As always, we've got a greatepisode lined up for you today,
featuring none other than AnikaZubair.
And.
But before we get into thatconversation, just a little bit
(01:22):
of housekeeping.
Real quick, if you listened,last week we announced a contest
for a gold pass into theCustomer Success Festival in
Austin.
That's happening February sorry, february 13th and 14th 2024.
If you're listening to this inthe future sometime, this
(01:42):
doesn't mean anything to you, soyou can ignore this part, but
regardless, we've had a lot ofengagement so far, but you still
got till January 31st to enterthat contest.
Again, it's for a gold pass.
It's like 1300 bucks.
You might as well enter.
The way to do it is linked inthe show notes.
(02:02):
It's a it's a LinkedIn post,but essentially it boils down to
this you need to leave a reviewfor the show and send me a
quick screenshot of that review.
You need to like that post.
That's linked in the show notesand you need to comment on that
post.
That's linked in the show notes.
Couldn't be easier.
Might as well do it.
Winner will be announced onJanuary 31st and I can't wait to
(02:26):
see you there because I'll bespeaking at a session and
moderating a panel.
So come say hi for sure Ifyou're going to be there.
Onto the episode for todayfeaturing my conversation with
Anika Zubair.
She is a CS staple, a CSpowerhouse, and I was so happy
(02:48):
to have a conversation with her.
She's also a podcast host onher own.
It's always kind of nervewracking having podcasts set,
you know, for, like fellowpodcast hosts on the show, it's
not the first time, but anywaywe get into the nitty gritty of
a bunch of different things,including kind of career stuff.
She spent a lot of time as aconsultant, still still consults
(03:12):
, but is now also full time CSleader once more.
So we talk a little bit aboutthat.
We talk a lot about short formcontent, like TikTok style
content and how to use that todrive, you know, engagement and
call to actions and those kindsof things.
We spend some time talking justabout practical.
(03:33):
There's lots of really greatpractical examples in this, this
episode as well, of stuff thatyou can go implement.
One of the things that I foundquite fascinating is that we do
spend some time talking abouttaking things from B to C into B
to B.
There.
I don't know why there therejust seems to be this reluctance
to do it.
Like you know, in B to C weshould be able to talk like
(03:56):
humans, or B to B we should beable to talk like humans, and,
and there's just a reluctance todo that, and so we spend some
time kind of talking about thata little bit, because I know I
know that has been a topic ofconversation and some of the
Slack groups I'm in and onLinkedIn as well, but really
cool stuff.
(04:16):
I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation with Anika Zuber.
I'm sure you will as well.
And here we go.
I'm just, I'm just going tostop talking.
Here we go.
Anika, it is amazing to have youon the podcast.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation and which you
wouldn't have picked up on givenhow Tardy my prep email went to
(04:39):
you, went out to you.
It's a classic case of likestuck in draft mode, but suffice
it to say I'm excited to talkto you today because you are one
of the mainstays in like CScontent.
You have just a ton ofexperience.
You're currently head of CS atGriffin, which is a new kind of
a new gig for you.
(05:00):
You've been kind of, you've held, you know, all kinds of amazing
leadership positions in CS,including I think you were an
insider for, for a scosh You'vedone, see, wanna, you know,
before I let you speak becauseit looks it seems like I'm never
going to let you speak at thispoint I want to go like way back
(05:21):
and ask you about your kind offormal education in political
science and you also, from whatI said, you got a.
You got a masters in Berlin insomething like international
relations, something like like awelcome and be.
What was that all about?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Awesome, alex.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm usually the one askingquestions, so this is fun to be
in the hot seat, as it's knownas.
So I'm excited to be on here.
But, as you mentioned, anikaZubair, I'm head of customer
success at Griffin currently,but I have spent the last 12
years in customer success and anumber of leadership roles.
We can dive into that.
(06:04):
But to answer your questionspecifically about my formal
education, I did study politicalscience and did a masters in
international relations, and alot of that was due to the fact
that in a formal life formerlife I wanted to actually be a
lawyer and I went down the routeof studying political science
(06:25):
or in that realm ofinternational relations to
someday possibly pursue lawschool.
I even was a legal aid at 1.2.
And all of that resulted in merealizing I definitely do not
want to be a lawyer but Ienjoyed studying political
science and enjoyed the topicand the relation.
I always knew I wanted to do amasters and I continued down the
(06:49):
formal education side of thingsbecause of personal drive to
get a masters.
But it has nothing to do withwhat I do in work in tech today.
But I have to say I know a lotof people question education or
further education and if itreally applies to getting a job.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
To me.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I think you don't need it, but it's amazing to
have, because it taught me somuch more discipline and
formalities around who I am andstructured me as a human being
not necessarily as aprofessional, but as a human
being, and I am a lifelonglearner.
So I think it also set me upfor success in that way.
So that is the backstory of whypolitical science,
(07:32):
international relations and whyBerlin is.
Because I am an expat, theaccent is Californian, but I
have spent the last coming on 13years in Europe, first in
Berlin, germany, and now I findmyself in London, england, for
the last eight years.
So I say that I am an expat,I'm also British, but I just I
don't have the accent yet andI'm definitely waiting for that
(07:53):
one to get good.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Your soul is British.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
It is in some weird way.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, well, that's cool.
I can't remember which guest itwas, but you're not the only
one with a political sciencebackground.
I'm trying to remember who thatwas, or somebody else that got
a poly-side degree, and weactually talked a little bit
about kind of the implicationsof that in CS, because I do feel
(08:26):
like there's probably someskills that you acquired in that
education that probably helpyou out in CS.
Would you?
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I would have to be taking back into my memory,
thinking about that.
But I would say that the formalpart of all of the writing I
can imagine like that affects meevery single day and how
communications and how thatworks as well.
Like I just think back to mythesis and everything I had to
write and actually first readand understand and then
(09:03):
reiterate and deliver back.
I feel like that can definitelycome into a big part in
customer success and how wecommunicate with customers.
But also again, how do we takejargon that is political science
and then put it into place ineveryday language or in everyday
examples, and I remember mythesis was all about connecting
(09:24):
social media to a lot ofpolitical events that have
happened in the world, andbecause of that again, I was
taking jargon that we know fromtheory or practice, which I
think of in CS.
We take product jargon and wethen make it easy to understand
and absorb in front of ourcustomers as well.
So if you want to draw thatparallel, maybe I'm reaching
here, but maybe that's that'swhere you're talking about?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, no, yeah, it's very interesting because it's
true Like a lot of what we do inCS is really just boil it down
to like, hey, what do you wantto accomplish?
Here's how you're going to dothat and here's the technical
documentation for your teams togo execute on it Exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
But then we have to be the ones that answer the
questions when the technicaljargon doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, exactly Demystify it a little bit.
That's awesome.
So obviously this is theDigital CS podcast.
I ask all my guests kind of thesame question, which is roughly
like what's your elevator pitchfor Digital CS?
Because everybody's is a littlebit different and I like to ask
everybody, because there'sdifferent flavors that come to
(10:32):
it.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Definitely.
I love this question because Ithink you are probably going to
get so many different answers,depending on what the heck
digital customer success meansto someone.
But to me personally, in today'scrazy world of tech that we
live in, customer success hastaken on a whole new meeting and
with the rise of technology,but also with the rise of all
(10:53):
the different software that weuse, businesses really have to
adapt and change to ensurecustomers are getting what they
really need to have a seamlessexperience across your product.
And I think that, whether youhave a high-touch model that's
bringing in digital customersuccess, or whether you are only
a PLG motion, everybody needsto have some sort of digital
(11:14):
engagement.
And because of that, digitalcustomer success is all about
leveraging technology and makingsure it fits in to your
customer journey, depending onwhat that journey really is.
Is it using analytics, is itusing AI, is it using
personalized communication?
All I'm saying is that, onceyou understand your customer
needs, it's putting some sort ofdigital element into that
(11:36):
customer journey and addressingtheir pain points in new
strategies and ways, because,honestly, no one has time to
deal with one-to-one meetings.
As much as we'd like to say isthe norm.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, you can only grow somuch if you're just focused on
that one-to-one high-touch,which early stage is super
important, because that's allthat kind of and as you start
growing, you can't throw bodiesat.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
And you've got to evolve all the time, yeah, as
you grow, not just the bodies,it's just like we live in a
different world.
I just think that like.
I've been in customer successfor 12 years, coming on 13 years
.
10 years ago I would meet mycustomers in person.
It would never be questioned tobe like, yes, we're going to
have round tables, but nowpeople's budgets look different,
but also the way peopleinteract are so different.
(12:29):
Pre-pandemic, it wouldn't be anissue to jump on a plane and go
visit a customer.
It was almost baked into theidea and concept of being a
client relationship manager oran account manager.
But in today's day and age,that is just not part of your
business plan to have that sortof budget to meet customers in
person.
But also customers aren't doingit as much anyways as well.
(12:52):
So it's all evolving andchanging and that's what I mean
where we need to leveragetechnology to really service
what our customers want.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's almost an expectation, quite honestly, and
I think COVID had a big hand inthat and kind of changing that
a little bit, because everybodygot used to operating digitally.
I mean, I think pre-COVID myfather, for instance, who's 84,
something like that he neverused Facebook, he never used
(13:23):
FaceTime, wasn't that we Did?
And he's on more Capolo.
Now he's posting on Facebook,he's doing all the Instagram
stuff and it's like this whole.
It's a weird example, but Ithink, just in general, the
world got a lot more used tooperating digitally, and I think
in the world of business andSaaS, I think that's super true.
One interesting thing that Ilike to point to, too is kind of
(13:47):
like the resurgence of the QRcode, because you remember, when
it was kind of laughed at for awhile, the QR code was a cool
thing, like in I don't know 2010, or whatever, and then it kind
of faded away, it was laughed at, and then all of a sudden, qr
codes are everywhere, becauseit's a really easy way for
everybody to access info.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, and it's just an easier way to serve up the
content that you need to serveup and, like you said, it's used
in so many different factors.
I've been at a baby showerthat's had QR codes on like for
games.
The QR code was on your littlename tag.
I was like this is brilliant.
I wouldn't think of a QR codeto play games on your phone and
(14:29):
interact with the whole room.
But yeah, like you said, theway we use technology has
definitely accelerated postpandemic, post COVID, and the
way we serve up content, whetherit's in our personal lives or
in our professional lives.
With Digital CS, it's totallybeing absorbed in a new way that
we have to adapt to.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, exactly, and I think that financially too, it
has implicated, like the otherday I was driving my school and
there's this one intersectionwhere once in a while, you'll
see police officers andfirefighters, whatever,
collecting donations, especiallyaround the holidays, and
they're walking around with aboot or whatever.
(15:10):
But this time they were walkingaround with like laminated QR
codes for Venmo and I was likeduh, like, of course people
don't carry cash anymore, right?
Speaker 1 (15:22):
No one carries cash.
You could just you know.
Venmo me a donation.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, exactly.
So it's interesting.
Anyway, not here to talk aboutQR codes, maybe we are, I don't
know, who knows.
Let's see how many times we canmention the QR code in this
episode.
So I think one thing that I'venoticed anyway over the past few
years is there are more andmore people kind of stepping
(15:51):
into consultancy, whether it bekind of a part-time side hustle
type thing, starting their ownconsulting group and things like
that, and I think especially,you know, job markets kind of
nutty, and so you see a littlebit more of that, obviously at
(16:13):
the moment.
You've actually recently madethe switch back.
You know, I think a few monthsago basically, you started as
head of CS at Griffin, and so Iwas just curious to get kind of
your insight into how thattransition has been for you
personally.
Congrats on the role, by theway.
But you know, how has thattransition been for you?
(16:35):
Are you still working with someclients and a divorce yourself?
Like what does that kind oflook like for you?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, backstories.
I have been doing consulting orsome sort of advisory role
since the pandemic and, muchlike everyone else, found
themselves in lockdown with alittle bit more time and I have
to say I'm grateful for mynetwork because a lot of people
do reach out, especially atearly stage startups, saying,
hey, nika, based on yourexperience, you seem like a
(17:06):
great fit, but we're just notready to have a senior leader on
board, which makes sense and alot of times they are looking
for advice or help on gettingthings started when it comes to
building out whatever they'relooking to build out.
And that's how it originallystarted actually working in
consulting gigs and, let's sayit was more of a side hustle
thing in 2020, and again wefound ourselves with more time.
(17:30):
People were looking for newavenues of help because it was a
difficult time all around intech and so that's where it
actually started.
Where I really leaned in anddecided to take it on full time
is due to what I think a lot ofpeople are facing is layoffs.
I was laid off for my last roleand at the time I was like okay
(17:51):
, let me lean into finding a newrole, which the last year and a
half, two years now has beenabsolutely mental when it's come
to the job market.
It is so heartbreaking when Isee people reach out to me
saying I've not only been partof a layoff in the last few
months, but this is my second inthe last 18 months.
Right, that is just wild andI'm feeling for everyone.
(18:14):
Like you know, hearts arebreaking because it's a lot.
It's like if you said, it'slike going through divorce,
you're like trying to figurethings out, discover a new you.
But I decided to lean in toconsulting because the job
market just wasn't producingwhat I was looking for and I was
like, okay, at least this willkeep me busy.
(18:35):
It'll keep me like enjoyingdoing what I love to do, which
is building and growing customersuccess teams, and I think a
lot of this last year has alsotaught me or shown me that a lot
of fractional work is out thereat the moment, and whether it's
because CS is being rebranded,whether it's because it's not
afforded or companies are reallywatching budgets, what I can
(18:58):
say is there's lots offractional work out there and
because of that, I just leanedinto it and decided, okay, I'll
go back into consulting fulltime.
I had a few clients that I wasworking with.
I also coach one to one as well.
So, whether it's a CSM or aearly stage leader, I have a few
coaches that I work with.
But again, that was because ofwhat the job market produced at
(19:22):
the moment.
And, yes, I have moved backinto a full time operator role,
as you've mentioned, which isamazing.
I always knew I wanted to beback in an operating role
because I really enjoy the teamside of things.
I really enjoy building notonly customer success
departments but businesses.
I find myself in startups overthe last 12 years, so I wanted
(19:43):
to be back in that environment,but I am still, yes, doing a bit
of fractional work here andthere.
I still coach as well.
So it's something that I don'tthink it's an end, or or I think
it's something that becomespart of you, because you almost
get to see this whole new worldof helping people in different
scenarios, in differentsituations.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, yeah that's.
I mean you hit the nail in thehead like there's a there's a
joy to helping folks besuccessful in their own right
and growing whether it's growingtheir careers or kind of being
a fly on the wall and helpadvising on on growing different
things and there's a there's asatisfaction that comes comes
(20:26):
with that as well, and and Ithink the CS community is is so
tight knit.
We're having theseconversations anyway like we're.
You know, we, we tend to bequite a connected people and so
kind of you know, might as wellmake something out of that
connectedness and and help soyeah that's cool, I love it.
(20:52):
And you know, we, we, we werejoking a little bit before you
know, before we startedrecording, about the fact that
you know you have joined aFinTech org and you know, and
that's notoriously kind of hardFinTech and and in like security
or whatever notorious they cometo you.
So I think it speaks highly ofGriffin that you know that
(21:14):
they've they've pulled somebodyfrom outside the fold, so to
speak, and you said that therewere a lot of team members that
actually weren't originally inFinTech.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, no, we are an organization, we are bank, we
are a fully licensed bank, butwe operate in a way of a SaaS
business.
So when I was interviewing andwhen I was speaking to the
founders and members of theboard, they were like no, we
function like a SaaS business.
But on the outside, we areobviously a fully fledged bank
and because of that we get theFinTech badge of honor, or or
(21:47):
not.
Honor maybe, but yes, and in myexperience, the finance world
and especially cybersecurityworld tend to be very particular
about who they hire and whatexperience you have, especially
when it comes to industryexperience and knowledge.
And I was questioning OK, will aFinTech really embrace the true
(22:08):
meaning of what customersuccess is?
And after speaking with thefounders and really having deep
dive discussions with a lot ofthe executive team, it was
really clear to me that theyvalue it, and not only do they
value it.
I am one of the first hires inCS because, while we still have
only single digit customers,because of the fact that they
want to build something aroundtheir customers and that was
(22:31):
really really priority one forthem, and it really sank to my
own values hearing that fromthem as well.
And, like you said, yes, about50 percent of Griffin is
actually from that finance world, of ex bankers or ex FinTech,
and then 50 percent of us arefrom the tech SaaS world.
So it's a nice blend ofpersonalities and people, but
(22:53):
also it's an amazing blend ofintelligence.
I think that that makes thisreally unique like melting pot
of us building somethingtogether.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, and probably an awesome learning opportunity
along the way too, which is cool, Definitely.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I would imagine you're kind of learning purpose
has been so steep.
But I've again.
People have been amazingly nice.
And then I'm like, I'm sorry, Ithought SaaS had lots of
acronyms, but banking has like10 X, the acronyms that I have
to learn now and I'm always likeis this the SaaS acronym or the
banking acronym?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, I didn't even think about that.
Like you know, fintech, of aton of acronyms, just like, I
mean, I guess, any industry, butI would imagine that's
astronomical kind of like.
You know, I don't know, rocketscience or something might beat
it out, but who knows?
You recently took home of anEver After Most Creative Leader
(23:51):
Award, so congrats, that'sawesome.
Yeah, it is a very short anddistinguished list of winners
there, but it was.
You mentioned that it wasbasically around a CS Trailer
program that you had built up,correct, and I would love for
you to give some insight intowhat that program was and what
(24:12):
problems you were trying tosolve and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Sure happy to.
So it was based on a initiativethat was launched at my
previous organization, carbon,and Carbon had a very large
amount of customers in theirlong tail, so really dealing
with truly SMB or low touchdigital touch customers.
And the idea was, or the issuethat we were facing really was
(24:40):
the fact that a lot of oursingle user or single or
singular license users wereasking for a lot of our time,
but we just could not dedicatethe one to one time for those
customers.
Like some of them were our OGclients that have been with us
from the start but they are nolonger our ICP, we realized that
there was just a lot ofcustomers that we're sold to,
(25:02):
but also a lot of people thatcontinue to come on that were
only like solo preneurs thatwere using our product, which is
fine, it's built for thatpurpose too but it was hard to
service them the same way assomeone who had 20 or 200 seats
with us.
So, very much realizing that wehad this huge gap to fill, but
also the issue was that a lot ofthe things that we were already
(25:23):
doing weren't impactful.
With our digital led programmeaning we use Loom to create
videos in order to make sure ourclients got some sort of update
from a human or a CSM, and I,as a leader, on Fridays would
spend time reviewing either ourGONG recordings or Loom videos
(25:45):
that were being sent out.
So I can fully understand.
Are we approaching the problemcorrectly?
But also, are we beingimpactful with what we're doing
with our customers and are wedriving value in these
conversations?
And I started to see theanalytics out of Loom and it was
very rare that any of it wasbeing watched through.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Really.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Open rates were very low of emails, but also the Loom
video was just not beingwatched through and these are
like 20, 30 minute videos thatwe were doing because they were
in depth of product education orwhat's on the roadmap or what
you're missing and not using inyour account correctly, almost
like an account health checkcall as well.
(26:25):
So a lot of the content wasvery valuable but just wasn't
being watched and because ofthat I decided to apply
something in the VTC world thatwas on the rise into B2B and the
idea came from me, from beingon TikTok.
I will openly say I'm addictedto that app.
I sometimes scroll and I'm likeoh my gosh.
(26:47):
An hour has gone by.
What has just happened with mylife?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
But the rise of TikTok.
That happened.
I have TikTok guilt on a dailybasis.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, like the amount of things I send to my friends
or my family on TikTok isridiculous.
But coming back to the rise ofshort form video content, and.
I was like, oh my gosh, becauseit's like seven seconds or 20
seconds.
Yeah, I'll watch it, yeah, I'llflip through it, yeah, I'll
absorb that content, because mybrain had that much energy to
(27:17):
watch that.
And I was like, why don't wetake the same idea and apply it
to our business reviews or ourclient calls?
And this was again.
It was on the rise in 2021.
So in 22, we decided, okay,let's do what I called a CS
trailer, and a CS trailer isbasically giving you a little
(27:38):
sneak peek into what it is youcan get if you book a call with
us or if you want to go into forthe one to many customers into
a round table discussion webinarwhere a CSM can elaborate on
new product feature releases oron educating you on something
within your account.
So all I did is challenge ourCSMs to make Loom videos that
(28:01):
were max 90 seconds, and the 90second video had to be something
that was impactful, thatcaptured attention, that was
able for the CSM to actuallythen drive value but also get
the customer to do the call toaction, which is book in more
time to either discuss youraccount in detail or join a
webinar.
We thought 33% increase inpeople actually watching the
(28:24):
video and engaging with it andthen booking the calls.
So for us, we used Loom and thedata that it was lacking and
then applied concepts of ticktalk to what we said was a CS
trailer.
And we first started with justbooking the calls, but we also
then started to challenge and dodigital QBRs, but in 90 seconds
(28:45):
, and again challenging to makesure you're able to capture
someone's attention in 90seconds or less.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, it is.
It is a challenge to do thatbecause 90 seconds, you know,
depending on what you're doing,you can either seem really
really short or really long, butlike it goes into, basically
it's micro learning, is whatyou're producing, right, it's
(29:12):
like a digestible bite size,chunks that anyone can go and
consume really quickly, which Ithink is super compelling,
because it sounds to me, likeyou know before, it was almost
like watching the recorded call,right, which who really watches
recorded calls?
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I do sometimes yeah, exactly, but who even pays
attention in an hour.
Call QBR Like.
Are you getting the attentionof full hour?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Were you getting into like persona versions of that?
Would you do something for anexecutive buyer versus a user or
a champion, or is thatsomething that you've dabbled
with?
We only?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
had one persona because we were channeling those
solopreneurs that I talkedabout.
So it was just like thebusiness owner that didn't have
the time but also used so manyparts of our product.
It was really a great casestudy story because they were
using us so well, but they're asolopreneur, they only had so
much time, so they were theexecutive buyer, but also they
(30:20):
were the people that needed themost education but didn't have
the time to give us.
So we targeted that as our firstdraft of our, I guess, persona
that we were choosing.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I love the notion of this because one of the things
that a lot of guests say on theshow is this notion that digital
one of the byproducts or one ofthe primary goals of digital
would be to make sure that yourhumans are spending their time
(30:55):
having valuable conversationswith their customer, instead of
like sending the same email 50times in a row.
And I would say that if you'repulling up a customer's health
score, support tickets, all thatkind of stuff, you're spending
a couple minutes reviewing that.
You're shooting a 90 minuteloom sending that out.
(31:15):
I would say that's incrediblyhigh value activity that you're
engaged with and it iscompletely like now.
It is a really cool combination, but human element and the
digital element that I think iskind of the gold standard in
digital CS these days.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, and I think that that's what people forget.
I think a lot of.
I'm sure you've talked to a lotof guests that feel the same
where, oh, I need to send likean email campaign, or it needs
to be an AI bot or it needs tobe an in-app message or
something like that, and there'snothing wrong with all of those
pieces by the way.
But I have always built DigitalCS where you already have a
(31:56):
layer of customer success.
But how do you add technologyinto that human element?
And whether that's a one-to-oneloom video or whether that's a
one-to-many webinar, I stillthink the only way another human
is going to engage is with somelevel of human interaction,
whether that's the loom video,whether that's a webinar,
(32:18):
whatever it is.
A lot of times in-app thingsare closed off and, yes, they
might be good for an answering aquestion quick here or there,
but to deliver value it's tough.
I think it's really tough ifyou only take the digital route
and not the human side.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And with those short attention spans, man like you
got to get on it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It's getting shorter every day.
Yeah it is Funny.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Actually, this morning I was on TikTok and I
saw this.
It was a pretty funny video ofyou know.
It was just a guy walking downthe street or whatever and he's
having a you know he's shootinga selfie, TikTok type situation.
And he was talking about how,like you know, kids these days
they're all like into the 90s,like the 90s are making a
(33:04):
comeback.
And then he was saying, likeyou know, okay, well, you know,
your parents relate to pick youup for us.
The coach took the balls away.
What are you doing?
You're staring at the sidewalkand then you're looking back at
the goalpost and welcome to the90s.
you know, because you don't havethis phone in your hand and it,
you know he gave a couple ofexamples like that, but it's
(33:24):
like yeah, art, you know the waywe consume things has obviously
changed a lot, you know, inthose few decades since the 90s.
But, like the because, of andreels and all those kinds of
social media things thateverybody's engaging in.
They're expecting kind of likethis, this scroll element of
(33:45):
where it's like quick,digestible, to the point and
let's move on.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
No, definitely.
I think in general, like, ifyou think about it, it applies
to our daily lives, to the moretechnology we get inundated with
, the more we just want thequick answer or the quick value
add of what we're here for.
I mean even an email you want.
If you want something for me,just tell me in the in the first
(34:13):
few lines, like giving me threeparagraphs is, I will glance at
it, but you will get a responsemuch later because I need to
give you much more of myattention span for three verses.
Even nowadays we have slack,external slack channels with our
customers and usually a quickslack is much easier, like a one
(34:34):
sentence, like hey, did you dothis or did this work well, is
much easier than sitting andcomposing an email and thinking
of like all this jargon andattaching these documents and
doing all these things.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, exactly One.
One kind of tactical thing orpractical example of kind of
short attention span, but alsocontextual.
You know relevance that Ipicked up on the other day.
I don't know if you're a Notionuser or if you have ever used
Notion.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I'm seeing a lot more people using it.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
I recently onboarded on it and I've been getting
these onboarding emails not likeonce a week, not once a day,
but every like few hours.
They're short, they're sweet,they look really good, but I
think one of the most brilliantelements of it that I don't know
why more people aren't doingthis is, the subject is
(35:33):
literally the action.
That's your next step.
It's like this one I'm lookingto give your team a home.
That's the subject.
But next to the subject isthree slash eight, so three out
of eight being in the subjectline.
They're giving you thecontextual information of where
you are in that journey, which Ithink is brilliant, because
(35:55):
that's something that a lot ofpeople lack Like in their
onboarding journeys.
It's like, okay, they'reexpecting folks to do XYZ, but
the problem is the customerdoesn't know there's only XYZ
right of where they are in thatwhole journey.
And I just either thought somany things about the
conciseness, but then also, youknow, moving the relevance of
(36:15):
the position in the journey isabsolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, I've had notions since the dawn of time,
so like I remember being on thewaitlist to even join notions,
so they definitely didn't havethat level of onboarding for me.
But that's really cool thatthey give you, like, bite size.
Do this today, like, or thishour do this, and then the next
hour do this and tomorrow dothis, based on again I'm
(36:40):
guessing what their typical userjourney flow looks like to them
on their end and they've takenthat data and then translated
back at.
This is what most people seesuccess with.
That is what digital is reallyis translating back the data to
get you from point A to point Bas quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yep, that's, that's so true.
Anyway, figure, that was alittle fun side branch.
You know we try to be as as asas full of contextual examples
of what, what digital is in thepod.
But anyway, speaking of whichyou know, are there, are there
some things that you've seen,like out in the wild, or things
(37:18):
that you've developed or havebeen part of your programs, that
have been, like you know,particularly like memorable
digital motions.
I mean, we all get those thingsonce in a while and we're like,
oh, that's cool, I know whatthey're doing and that's really
cool.
Like, are there some examplesof things that you've seen
recently or in your past thatyou think are are cool?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
The one thing that comes to mind that isn't new but
I think is brilliant and hasalways done well.
As Spotify wrapped, I alwaysthink that that is just.
That is hard.
If I think about that from a CSperspective, I know they don't
care because it's beat, let'sbeat to see, and they're mostly
just trying to show you whatyou've listened to.
But subliminally, they aretrying to show that you got
(38:02):
value out of using our softwareto listen to music over this
last year and this is how yougot value.
And they did it in a joyousmanner, which I think is
something that is can beabsorbed and learned in customer
success and in digital customersuccess is.
They gave you stats, but theymade it fun and they made you
want to go through that as well.
(38:26):
And I think YouTube does this aswell, and I recently saw that,
like your most viewed videos,like what you've watched this
week, like what's been searchedfor, like what have you searched
for, and they give you likesummaries in this way, and I
think that they're just showingyou that, hey, you have logged
on to our software orapplication, this is what you've
done and this is the valueyou've seen over it, but they
(38:48):
didn't even have to give you anyhard revenue numbers.
Once I get my Spotify wrappedevery year, I'm like, well, duh,
I'm going to keep using Spotifybecause income and, like Apple
music and every other musicprovider, has not caught on to
how joyous.
They deliver data.
They deliver transactional datain a fun way that makes it
(39:11):
super engaging for their enduser to want to know what
they've been up to.
And if you think about that,that's customer success and its
simplicity.
And I think that if we were toapply something that simple in
the sense that we are deliveringdata or metrics or ROI of our
product to our customer, but canwe do it in a way that is
(39:31):
joyous and enjoyable to them?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Then amazing, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Well, so many times we're not celebrating, we're
calling out, we're reacting tothings that have gone, we're
looking at telemetry andfocusing on the things that are
typically signs of churn orwhatever.
But I think we should be doingmore of these celebratory type
(39:58):
things, and I think some of thebest brands they're the best
brands because they do that kindof stuff you know celebrate
your wins, whatever that may be,whether it's uploads or
downloads or sideloads orwhatever else.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I don't know what that is.
Oh, maybe it's a QR code.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Can I throw that in now?
Yeah, oh good.
Excellent Point to Nika.
But, like you know, it's thatcelebratory aspect of things
that builds camaraderie, buildsrapport, builds kind of a sense
of team and togetherness andcollaboration.
That I think is crazy important, especially, you know, since
(40:42):
we're all being bombarded with 5million negative things these
days.
It's nice to celebrate thosethings, I know.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
And it did it in a celebratory way, but also it's a
delivered value.
Like I tell a lot of my co-g's,like when you are speaking to
your customer, you have todeliver value in what you're
doing.
You don't have to have anupsell conversation, you don't
have to sell hard in an email,but you have to deliver value
because if they see the value,they're going to pay, just like
we see the value of usingSpotify.
(41:08):
When Spotify does their Spotifywrap, I'm like I don't even
question like, oh, I'm not goingto use Spotify now because they
just delivered value and theyjust told me how much I use
their product.
So, if anything, I'm probablyover utilizing and paying
nothing for it, because theymade me feel that, oh my gosh,
and you could listen to so manyX hours of music and she got joy
(41:31):
from it Great.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
They didn't even have to tell me a price on it there
was no money on that Spotifywrap and even as a creator, you
know getting those things as, as, as you know, someone who
uploads Spotify or publishes toSpotify it's like those stats
that they provide you as acreator makes you want to just
like be publishing on Spotify,of course.
(41:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
I'm sure you get it.
I was like.
I was like I'm sure you'vegotten your year-end stuff, yeah
.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Absolutely.
It's fun to look at, and what'sinteresting to me is what it'll
look like next year, because Imean, I, you know this, the
podcast is seven months old,something like that, so I
haven't had a full year in thehopper.
I'm interested to see what nextyear looks like, because I know
at that point they'll switchfrom like you've had this many
X's and this many X's to likehey, this is your growth year
over year and and and all that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Exactly and basically doing digital CS, I think in
the most amazing way, becauseit's all in just the short video
content that's like hey, youused it this way and you've seen
growth and this is yourfavorite song this year.
And the thing is, is it's justpart of their bigger strategy,
because come January or FebruaryI don't, I don't remember when
(42:42):
it happened they give you the.
You are most played, 2020.
They automatically create yourplaylist from last year.
So, if you want to listen toyour top songs of last year,
it's just, it's just, it's justthere for you.
So they're almost providing abetter experience by doing
something for you, which, again,is the follow up to their, to
their rap series.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I think, I think you know there are so many examples
in B to C that we can pull themto B.
B to B with very minimal kindof tweaking, like B2C has been
good at this digital stuff for along time, I mean, you think.
I mean rewards programs havebeen around forever, you know,
(43:23):
and those kinds of things likethat kind of gamification of
value is something that isn't anew thing.
But you know, for some I thinkmy take on it anyway is that
that I think B2B for a long timefelt that it was kind of
childish and it didn't belong inkind of B2B, when in my opinion
(43:44):
it absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I just I find it always amazing because B2B or
B2C were all humans.
Like a business is created outof humans, the person you're
speaking to at the other endisn't Coca-Cola Incorporated.
There is someone who there's ahuman on that other side.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
That is your customer .
It's just Bill.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, exactly, and I'm just like he's not Coca-Cola
or he's not like you know, he'snot this major organization
that you're speaking to.
You're speaking to a human andthat human wants to build some
sort of relationship with you,whether that's digitally or in
person.
They want to build some sort ofrapport and they want to feel
like they're connected to yoursoftware and that they're
(44:24):
getting value out of yoursoftware.
So how you facilitate that as aCSM or a digital CS leader or
person, it's just a human.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Just a human In fact, I've used that phrase a long
time when you know, a lot ofpeople get really, really worked
up like meeting with executivesand meeting whoever.
It is, like you know somebodywith a big fancy title.
I'm just, it's just a person.
It's a person.
Yeah, they have differenttraits or whatever.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
It's crazy.
Like they're like, oh, I wantto, I want to like they get so,
so much happier when the head of, or VP of, cs is on a call with
them and I'm like, but my CSMis going to do way more for you
than I can.
I can stick it with my bigfancy title, but I'm not doing
anything for you here.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah yeah, it is.
It is amazing.
That is amazing that kind ofmentality around the title.
It's a thing, it's a.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
It is, and I actually recently shared that you are so
much more than your title,because I also believe that,
again, someone who's been instartups for the last 12 years,
like your title, could be headof nothing.
Your title could also then behead of everything.
So it just it totally doesn'tmatter, but it does matter the
impact you drive and the valueyou drive and the value you
(45:50):
bring to the business.
And the same thing goes whenyou're speaking to customers.
If they're the CEO or ifthey're just an analyst that
you're working with or an intern, it doesn't matter.
They just want to drive value,they want an outcome out of that
call, and that we're all humans.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah, exactly, and a good CSM is going to be head of
our relationship, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
You're the CEO of this relationship, that's right,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
You're a founding member, I believe, of CS Angel,
which is an awesome organization, and I'm curious maybe to get
some insight from you on.
We gave some practical examplesof digital CS, but are there
some platforms and sometechnology that's emerging that
you're paying attention to, aspart of that org or otherwise,
(46:43):
that are worth mentioning?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, I think being a part of CS Angel means I get to
see lots of pitches or earlystage businesses really showcase
their product and what they'retrying to bring to market.
When it comes to customersuccess In relation to digital,
I think there's been a reallyhot product around, and I know
Dickie's been doing a lot aroundCastApp and having a digital
(47:08):
CSM is, I think, the next stageof what digital CS will be.
So I really believe that whatDickie and everyone at CastApp
is doing is going to be great.
I think foresight is anotherone.
I don't know if it's going toapply to full customer success,
just not digital CS, but theyare really helping enterprise
(47:28):
SaaS leaders really be able toforecast retention and expansion
, and I think a lot ofeverything in CS, whether it's
digital or not, is very laggingindicators, and we definitely
need a space to be leading,especially with digital.
With digital being so heavilyinfluenced by data and making
data driven decisions, you doneed to have a tool in place
(47:52):
that's able to forecast for youwith confidence, and I think
foresight is one of those aswell.
And then the last one that I'llbring up is Bagel.
I was really impressed by whatthey're trying to do in digital
CS.
We are constantly gettingfeedback on what's working and
what's not working in theproduct side of things and I
think Bagel is trying tobasically be the glue between
(48:14):
product and commercial teams andthey're really trying to make
sure that they tie feature torevenue opportunities, and I
think that that's a big missingpiece within the way we collect
feedback as CS professionals.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Really is.
I mean, there's a lot ofemphasis that's put on the
relationship between sales andCS, but I think just under the
surface there is thatrelationship between product and
CS that's probably equally, ifnot more, important.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
So that's definitely how we capture that and how we
continue to build for a productthat's customer centric, I think
is going to be critical and keyas businesses scale and grow.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That's awesome.
That's great.
I appreciate that.
And yeah, dickie is going to beon the podcast at some point
early next year, so yeah, he'samazing.
He's such a great guy yeah,exactly, well, you look as we
kind of round out ourconversations.
I've really appreciated yourtime.
I'd love to kind of first andforemost, know what's in your
content diet.
(49:14):
I mean, you're known forproducing a lot of great content
and I've been the.
I've benefited from your greatcontent.
But what are you payingattention to?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
This is so hard to say because I feel like I
consume in different ways and,as a podcast host, I don't
listen to as many podcasts as Iprobably should because I'm
hosting them.
But I do love three podcaststhat I'm going to say that are
business related.
Is I love this is growth byDaphne.
She's done a great job ofreally connecting CS to growth
(49:48):
overall, not just specificallywithin customer success.
But how does it grow thebusiness?
I really like revenue today,another great podcast focusing
around revenue as well.
I do, like I.
It's hard to keep listing allthe CS podcast because, again, I
have my own and I don't evenlisten to my own podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
But I think another.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
it's hard to, it's hard to listen to yourself.
But I think other ways that Iconsume content is truly through
LinkedIn.
There's just so many peoplethat are sharing so much on
there.
There's a number of thoughtleaders, a number of people who
have won awards that Iconstantly have, like star, that
I always keep coming back towhat they have to share.
(50:35):
I personally really love CSoffice hours through gain go
retain, but also through JanYoung's CS office hours, like I
just think having those smallergroups where you're able to
exchange ideas is great.
And I really consume a lot ofcontent via conferences.
funny enough, and even though Iget invited to speak at
conferences, I actually reallyconsume a lot of side
(50:58):
conversation content atconferences, meaning like
there's a group of people thatstart discussing how CS is done
at their org versus another, andI feel like that's another
great way to consume content.
So a mix of all the above, butI have to say that I think
there's just so much out therethat you have to find out what
works for you, like podcastsonly work for me when I'm
(51:19):
driving in the car.
Cs office hours is usually likean hour of my day every now and
then, and then conferences isonly once a quarter, so that's
how I tend to break down myconsumption of.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
CS.
Yeah, that's great, that's cool.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Is there any anyone that youwould like to give kind of a
shout out to, or a group ofpeople that are doing digital?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, I would say, in focusing on digital CS, I had
Dan Ennis on my podcast and he'sat Mondaycom and he is building
scaled customer success atMondaycom and he has so many
tips, tricks, insights oneverything he's doing when it
comes to truly focusing only onscaled and only on digital.
(52:04):
So Dan's a brilliant bucket ofinformation when it comes to
scale than digital.
And I think the other two thatalways come to mind when I think
of digital is Jay, nathan andJeff at HireLogic.
The two of them always sharehow community is the additional
pillar within digital CS and Ireally appreciate that.
(52:25):
They're always sharing abouthow you can be human as well as
digital within using customercommunities to leverage that.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Totally.
I was just looking back atepisodes.
I think Jeff is episode five,if you want to go listen to that
, and Dan is episode 15.
Dude, dan is like that amazingcombination of like humble,
(52:54):
crazy smart and just like opento share, like the stuff that he
talked about, how he's likeidentifying personas based on
data habits and data trends.
Yes, come on, let's go.
Yeah, but it's great.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
I feel like he's like a data analyst mixed with a
marketeer, mixed with a CSleader, and it's just amazing
how many levers he pulls on tobuild out his scaled motion, and
it's so cool to ask himquestions and watch his mind
unfold.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
What's funny is I ask every guest who they want to
shout out on these episodes, andwhat I typically do is, when I
go to publish an episode, I'lljust message the people that got
the shout outs and just say hey, by the way, somebody shouted
you out, dan, I kid you not.
Our LinkedIn thread is justlike hey so, and so shouted you
(53:48):
out.
Hey, hey so, and so shouted youout.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
That's awesome.
That's also a great thing.
You follow up with that.
Maybe I'm going to steal that,by the way, because I asked at
the end of my podcast.
Who would you next want to haveas a guest, or who would you
shout out?
And I never.
I put them on a list, but Inever actually message them to
let them know.
So I should, I should, do that.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
It just feels it feels good.
You know it's one of those feelgood things.
Look, I am the one that'skeeping you from not only a
Friday evening but a fun holidaythere with the Gainsight crew
in London.
So I'm going to shut up and I'mgoing to let you go and I'm
going to thank you very much foryour time and your energy on a
Friday afternoon and it was justawesome talking to you and I
(54:30):
can't wait to do it again atsome point in the future.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Thank you so much for having me on.
This was so much fun and, asalways, it's nice to be on this
side of the podcast recording.
So thank you so much for havingme.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of the
digital customer success podcast.
If you like what we're doing,consider leaving us a review on
your podcast platform of choice.
It really helps us to grow andto provide value to a broader
audience.
You can view the digitalcustomer success definition word
map and get more details aboutthe show at
digitalcustomersuccesscom.
My name is Alex Turkovich.
(55:03):
Thanks again for joining andwe'll see you next time.
I find it always amazing because B2B or B2C were
all humans.
Like a business is created outof humans, the person you're
speaking to at the other endisn't Coca-Cola incorporated.
There is someone who there's ahuman on that other side.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
That is your customer .
It's just Bill.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
And, once again, welcome to the Digital Customs
Success podcast with me, alexTurkovich.
So glad you could join us heretoday and every week as I seek
out and interview leaders andpractitioners who are innovating
and building great scaled CSprograms.
My goal is to share what I'velearned and to bring you along
with me for the ride so that youget the insights that you need
(00:41):
to build and evolve your owndigital CS program.
If you'd like more info, wantto get in touch or sign up for
the latest updates, go todigitalcustomsuccesscom, and if
you have a question orcommentary to be used in an
upcoming episode, call us andleave a message at 512-222-7381.
For now, let's get started.
(01:01):
Well, hello and welcome back tothe Digital Customer Success
podcast.
It's so great to have you.
As always, we've got a greatepisode lined up for you today,
featuring none other than AnikaZubair.
And.
But before we get into thatconversation, just a little bit
(01:22):
of housekeeping.
Real quick, if you listened,last week we announced a contest
for a gold pass into theCustomer Success Festival in
Austin.
That's happening February sorry, february 13th and 14th 2024.
If you're listening to this inthe future sometime, this
(01:42):
doesn't mean anything to you, soyou can ignore this part, but
regardless, we've had a lot ofengagement so far, but you still
got till January 31st to enterthat contest.
Again, it's for a gold pass.
It's like 1300 bucks.
You might as well enter.
The way to do it is linked inthe show notes.
(02:02):
It's a it's a LinkedIn post,but essentially it boils down to
this you need to leave a reviewfor the show and send me a
quick screenshot of that review.
You need to like that post.
That's linked in the show notesand you need to comment on that
post.
That's linked in the show notes.
Couldn't be easier.
Might as well do it.
Winner will be announced onJanuary 31st and I can't wait to
(02:26):
see you there because I'll bespeaking at a session and
moderating a panel.
So come say hi for sure Ifyou're going to be there.
Onto the episode for todayfeaturing my conversation with
Anika Zubair.
She is a CS staple, a CSpowerhouse, and I was so happy
(02:48):
to have a conversation with her.
She's also a podcast host onher own.
It's always kind of nervewracking having podcasts set,
you know, for, like fellowpodcast hosts on the show, it's
not the first time, but anywaywe get into the nitty gritty of
a bunch of different things,including kind of career stuff.
She spent a lot of time as aconsultant, still still consults
(03:12):
, but is now also full time CSleader once more.
So we talk a little bit aboutthat.
We talk a lot about short formcontent, like TikTok style
content and how to use that todrive, you know, engagement and
call to actions and those kindsof things.
We spend some time talking justabout practical.
(03:33):
There's lots of really greatpractical examples in this, this
episode as well, of stuff thatyou can go implement.
One of the things that I foundquite fascinating is that we do
spend some time talking abouttaking things from B to C into B
to B.
There.
I don't know why there therejust seems to be this reluctance
to do it.
Like you know, in B to C weshould be able to talk like
(03:56):
humans, or B to B we should beable to talk like humans, and,
and there's just a reluctance todo that, and so we spend some
time kind of talking about thata little bit, because I know I
know that has been a topic ofconversation and some of the
Slack groups I'm in and onLinkedIn as well, but really
cool stuff.
(04:16):
I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation with Anika Zuber.
I'm sure you will as well.
And here we go.
I'm just, I'm just going tostop talking.
Here we go.
Anika, it is amazing to have youon the podcast.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation and which you
wouldn't have picked up on givenhow Tardy my prep email went to
(04:39):
you, went out to you.
It's a classic case of likestuck in draft mode, but suffice
it to say I'm excited to talkto you today because you are one
of the mainstays in like CScontent.
You have just a ton ofexperience.
You're currently head of CS atGriffin, which is a new kind of
a new gig for you.
(05:00):
You've been kind of, you've held, you know, all kinds of amazing
leadership positions in CS,including I think you were an
insider for, for a scosh You'vedone, see, wanna, you know,
before I let you speak becauseit looks it seems like I'm never
going to let you speak at thispoint I want to go like way back
(05:21):
and ask you about your kind offormal education in political
science and you also, from whatI said, you got a.
You got a masters in Berlin insomething like international
relations, something like like awelcome and be.
What was that all about?
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Awesome, alex.
I'm so excited to be here.
Thanks for having me on.
I'm usually the one askingquestions, so this is fun to be
in the hot seat, as it's knownas.
So I'm excited to be on here.
But, as you mentioned, anikaZubair, I'm head of customer
success at Griffin currently,but I have spent the last 12
years in customer success and anumber of leadership roles.
We can dive into that.
(06:04):
But to answer your questionspecifically about my formal
education, I did study politicalscience and did a masters in
international relations, and alot of that was due to the fact
that in a formal life formerlife I wanted to actually be a
lawyer and I went down the routeof studying political science
(06:25):
or in that realm ofinternational relations to
someday possibly pursue lawschool.
I even was a legal aid at 1.2.
And all of that resulted in merealizing I definitely do not
want to be a lawyer but Ienjoyed studying political
science and enjoyed the topicand the relation.
I always knew I wanted to do amasters and I continued down the
(06:49):
formal education side of thingsbecause of personal drive to
get a masters.
But it has nothing to do withwhat I do in work in tech today.
But I have to say I know a lotof people question education or
further education and if itreally applies to getting a job.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
To me.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I think you don't need it, but it's amazing to
have, because it taught me somuch more discipline and
formalities around who I am andstructured me as a human being
not necessarily as aprofessional, but as a human
being, and I am a lifelonglearner.
So I think it also set me upfor success in that way.
So that is the backstory of whypolitical science,
(07:32):
international relations and whyBerlin is.
Because I am an expat, theaccent is Californian, but I
have spent the last coming on 13years in Europe, first in
Berlin, germany, and now I findmyself in London, england, for
the last eight years.
So I say that I am an expat,I'm also British, but I just I
don't have the accent yet andI'm definitely waiting for that
(07:53):
one to get good.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Your soul is British.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
It is in some weird way.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Yes, well, that's cool.
I can't remember which guest itwas, but you're not the only
one with a political sciencebackground.
I'm trying to remember who thatwas, or somebody else that got
a poly-side degree, and weactually talked a little bit
about kind of the implicationsof that in CS, because I do feel
(08:26):
like there's probably someskills that you acquired in that
education that probably helpyou out in CS.
Would you?
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
I would have to be taking back into my memory,
thinking about that.
But I would say that the formalpart of all of the writing I
can imagine like that affects meevery single day and how
communications and how thatworks as well.
Like I just think back to mythesis and everything I had to
write and actually first readand understand and then
(09:03):
reiterate and deliver back.
I feel like that can definitelycome into a big part in
customer success and how wecommunicate with customers.
But also again, how do we takejargon that is political science
and then put it into place ineveryday language or in everyday
examples, and I remember mythesis was all about connecting
(09:24):
social media to a lot ofpolitical events that have
happened in the world, andbecause of that again, I was
taking jargon that we know fromtheory or practice, which I
think of in CS.
We take product jargon and wethen make it easy to understand
and absorb in front of ourcustomers as well.
So if you want to draw thatparallel, maybe I'm reaching
here, but maybe that's that'swhere you're talking about?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Yeah, no, yeah, it's very interesting because it's
true Like a lot of what we do inCS is really just boil it down
to like, hey, what do you wantto accomplish?
Here's how you're going to dothat and here's the technical
documentation for your teams togo execute on it Exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
But then we have to be the ones that answer the
questions when the technicaljargon doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah, exactly Demystify it a little bit.
That's awesome.
So obviously this is theDigital CS podcast.
I ask all my guests kind of thesame question, which is roughly
like what's your elevator pitchfor Digital CS?
Because everybody's is a littlebit different and I like to ask
everybody, because there'sdifferent flavors that come to
(10:32):
it.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Definitely.
I love this question because Ithink you are probably going to
get so many different answers,depending on what the heck
digital customer success meansto someone.
But to me personally, in today'scrazy world of tech that we
live in, customer success hastaken on a whole new meeting and
with the rise of technology,but also with the rise of all
(10:53):
the different software that weuse, businesses really have to
adapt and change to ensurecustomers are getting what they
really need to have a seamlessexperience across your product.
And I think that, whether youhave a high-touch model that's
bringing in digital customersuccess, or whether you are only
a PLG motion, everybody needsto have some sort of digital
(11:14):
engagement.
And because of that, digitalcustomer success is all about
leveraging technology and makingsure it fits in to your
customer journey, depending onwhat that journey really is.
Is it using analytics, is itusing AI, is it using
personalized communication?
All I'm saying is that, onceyou understand your customer
needs, it's putting some sort ofdigital element into that
(11:36):
customer journey and addressingtheir pain points in new
strategies and ways, because,honestly, no one has time to
deal with one-to-one meetings.
As much as we'd like to say isthe norm.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, you can only grow somuch if you're just focused on
that one-to-one high-touch,which early stage is super
important, because that's allthat kind of and as you start
growing, you can't throw bodiesat.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
And you've got to evolve all the time, yeah, as
you grow, not just the bodies,it's just like we live in a
different world.
I just think that like.
I've been in customer successfor 12 years, coming on 13 years
.
10 years ago I would meet mycustomers in person.
It would never be questioned tobe like, yes, we're going to
have round tables, but nowpeople's budgets look different,
but also the way peopleinteract are so different.
(12:29):
Pre-pandemic, it wouldn't be anissue to jump on a plane and go
visit a customer.
It was almost baked into theidea and concept of being a
client relationship manager oran account manager.
But in today's day and age,that is just not part of your
business plan to have that sortof budget to meet customers in
person.
But also customers aren't doingit as much anyways as well.
(12:52):
So it's all evolving andchanging and that's what I mean
where we need to leveragetechnology to really service
what our customers want.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's almost an expectation, quite honestly, and
I think COVID had a big hand inthat and kind of changing that
a little bit, because everybodygot used to operating digitally.
I mean, I think pre-COVID myfather, for instance, who's 84,
something like that he neverused Facebook, he never used
(13:23):
FaceTime, wasn't that we Did?
And he's on more Capolo.
Now he's posting on Facebook,he's doing all the Instagram
stuff and it's like this whole.
It's a weird example, but Ithink, just in general, the
world got a lot more used tooperating digitally, and I think
in the world of business andSaaS, I think that's super true.
One interesting thing that Ilike to point to, too is kind of
(13:47):
like the resurgence of the QRcode, because you remember, when
it was kind of laughed at for awhile, the QR code was a cool
thing, like in I don't know 2010, or whatever, and then it kind
of faded away, it was laughed at, and then all of a sudden, qr
codes are everywhere, becauseit's a really easy way for
everybody to access info.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, and it's just an easier way to serve up the
content that you need to serveup and, like you said, it's used
in so many different factors.
I've been at a baby showerthat's had QR codes on like for
games.
The QR code was on your littlename tag.
I was like this is brilliant.
I wouldn't think of a QR codeto play games on your phone and
(14:29):
interact with the whole room.
But yeah, like you said, theway we use technology has
definitely accelerated postpandemic, post COVID, and the
way we serve up content, whetherit's in our personal lives or
in our professional lives.
With Digital CS, it's totallybeing absorbed in a new way that
we have to adapt to.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, exactly, and I think that financially too, it
has implicated, like the otherday I was driving my school and
there's this one intersectionwhere once in a while, you'll
see police officers andfirefighters, whatever,
collecting donations, especiallyaround the holidays, and
they're walking around with aboot or whatever.
(15:10):
But this time they were walkingaround with like laminated QR
codes for Venmo and I was likeduh, like, of course people
don't carry cash anymore, right?
Speaker 1 (15:22):
No one carries cash.
You could just you know.
Venmo me a donation.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, exactly.
So it's interesting.
Anyway, not here to talk aboutQR codes, maybe we are, I don't
know, who knows.
Let's see how many times we canmention the QR code in this
episode.
So I think one thing that I'venoticed anyway over the past few
years is there are more andmore people kind of stepping
(15:51):
into consultancy, whether it bekind of a part-time side hustle
type thing, starting their ownconsulting group and things like
that, and I think especially,you know, job markets kind of
nutty, and so you see a littlebit more of that, obviously at
(16:13):
the moment.
You've actually recently madethe switch back.
You know, I think a few monthsago basically, you started as
head of CS at Griffin, and so Iwas just curious to get kind of
your insight into how thattransition has been for you
personally.
Congrats on the role, by theway.
But you know, how has thattransition been for you?
(16:35):
Are you still working with someclients and a divorce yourself?
Like what does that kind oflook like for you?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Yeah, backstories.
I have been doing consulting orsome sort of advisory role
since the pandemic and, muchlike everyone else, found
themselves in lockdown with alittle bit more time and I have
to say I'm grateful for mynetwork because a lot of people
do reach out, especially atearly stage startups, saying,
hey, nika, based on yourexperience, you seem like a
(17:06):
great fit, but we're just notready to have a senior leader on
board, which makes sense and alot of times they are looking
for advice or help on gettingthings started when it comes to
building out whatever they'relooking to build out.
And that's how it originallystarted actually working in
consulting gigs and, let's sayit was more of a side hustle
thing in 2020, and again wefound ourselves with more time.
(17:30):
People were looking for newavenues of help because it was a
difficult time all around intech and so that's where it
actually started.
Where I really leaned in anddecided to take it on full time
is due to what I think a lot ofpeople are facing is layoffs.
I was laid off for my last roleand at the time I was like okay
(17:51):
, let me lean into finding a newrole, which the last year and a
half, two years now has beenabsolutely mental when it's come
to the job market.
It is so heartbreaking when Isee people reach out to me
saying I've not only been partof a layoff in the last few
months, but this is my second inthe last 18 months.
Right, that is just wild andI'm feeling for everyone.
(18:14):
Like you know, hearts arebreaking because it's a lot.
It's like if you said, it'slike going through divorce,
you're like trying to figurethings out, discover a new you.
But I decided to lean in toconsulting because the job
market just wasn't producingwhat I was looking for and I was
like, okay, at least this willkeep me busy.
(18:35):
It'll keep me like enjoyingdoing what I love to do, which
is building and growing customersuccess teams, and I think a
lot of this last year has alsotaught me or shown me that a lot
of fractional work is out thereat the moment, and whether it's
because CS is being rebranded,whether it's because it's not
afforded or companies are reallywatching budgets, what I can
(18:58):
say is there's lots offractional work out there and
because of that, I just leanedinto it and decided, okay, I'll
go back into consulting fulltime.
I had a few clients that I wasworking with.
I also coach one to one as well.
So, whether it's a CSM or aearly stage leader, I have a few
coaches that I work with.
But again, that was because ofwhat the job market produced at
(19:22):
the moment.
And, yes, I have moved backinto a full time operator role,
as you've mentioned, which isamazing.
I always knew I wanted to beback in an operating role
because I really enjoy the teamside of things.
I really enjoy building notonly customer success
departments but businesses.
I find myself in startups overthe last 12 years, so I wanted
(19:43):
to be back in that environment,but I am still, yes, doing a bit
of fractional work here andthere.
I still coach as well.
So it's something that I don'tthink it's an end, or or I think
it's something that becomespart of you, because you almost
get to see this whole new worldof helping people in different
scenarios, in differentsituations.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Yeah, yeah that's.
I mean you hit the nail in thehead like there's a there's a
joy to helping folks besuccessful in their own right
and growing whether it's growingtheir careers or kind of being
a fly on the wall and helpadvising on on growing different
things and there's a there's asatisfaction that comes comes
(20:26):
with that as well, and and Ithink the CS community is is so
tight knit.
We're having theseconversations anyway like we're.
You know, we, we tend to bequite a connected people and so
kind of you know, might as wellmake something out of that
connectedness and and help soyeah that's cool, I love it.
(20:52):
And you know, we, we, we werejoking a little bit before you
know, before we startedrecording, about the fact that
you know you have joined aFinTech org and you know, and
that's notoriously kind of hardFinTech and and in like security
or whatever notorious they cometo you.
So I think it speaks highly ofGriffin that you know that
(21:14):
they've they've pulled somebodyfrom outside the fold, so to
speak, and you said that therewere a lot of team members that
actually weren't originally inFinTech.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, no, we are an organization, we are bank, we
are a fully licensed bank, butwe operate in a way of a SaaS
business.
So when I was interviewing andwhen I was speaking to the
founders and members of theboard, they were like no, we
function like a SaaS business.
But on the outside, we areobviously a fully fledged bank
and because of that we get theFinTech badge of honor, or or
(21:47):
not.
Honor maybe, but yes, and in myexperience, the finance world
and especially cybersecurityworld tend to be very particular
about who they hire and whatexperience you have, especially
when it comes to industryexperience and knowledge.
And I was questioning OK, will aFinTech really embrace the true
(22:08):
meaning of what customersuccess is?
And after speaking with thefounders and really having deep
dive discussions with a lot ofthe executive team, it was
really clear to me that theyvalue it, and not only do they
value it.
I am one of the first hires inCS because, while we still have
only single digit customers,because of the fact that they
want to build something aroundtheir customers and that was
(22:31):
really really priority one forthem, and it really sank to my
own values hearing that fromthem as well.
And, like you said, yes, about50 percent of Griffin is
actually from that finance world, of ex bankers or ex FinTech,
and then 50 percent of us arefrom the tech SaaS world.
So it's a nice blend ofpersonalities and people, but
(22:53):
also it's an amazing blend ofintelligence.
I think that that makes thisreally unique like melting pot
of us building somethingtogether.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Yeah, and probably an awesome learning opportunity
along the way too, which is cool, Definitely.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I would imagine you're kind of learning purpose
has been so steep.
But I've again.
People have been amazingly nice.
And then I'm like, I'm sorry, Ithought SaaS had lots of
acronyms, but banking has like10 X, the acronyms that I have
to learn now and I'm always likeis this the SaaS acronym or the
banking acronym?
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, I didn't even think about that.
Like you know, fintech, of aton of acronyms, just like, I
mean, I guess, any industry, butI would imagine that's
astronomical kind of like.
You know, I don't know, rocketscience or something might beat
it out, but who knows?
You recently took home of anEver After Most Creative Leader
(23:51):
Award, so congrats, that'sawesome.
Yeah, it is a very short anddistinguished list of winners
there, but it was.
You mentioned that it wasbasically around a CS Trailer
program that you had built up,correct, and I would love for
you to give some insight intowhat that program was and what
(24:12):
problems you were trying tosolve and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Sure happy to.
So it was based on a initiativethat was launched at my
previous organization, carbon,and Carbon had a very large
amount of customers in theirlong tail, so really dealing
with truly SMB or low touchdigital touch customers.
And the idea was, or the issuethat we were facing really was
(24:40):
the fact that a lot of oursingle user or single or
singular license users wereasking for a lot of our time,
but we just could not dedicatethe one to one time for those
customers.
Like some of them were our OGclients that have been with us
from the start but they are nolonger our ICP, we realized that
there was just a lot ofcustomers that we're sold to,
(25:02):
but also a lot of people thatcontinue to come on that were
only like solo preneurs thatwere using our product, which is
fine, it's built for thatpurpose too but it was hard to
service them the same way assomeone who had 20 or 200 seats
with us.
So, very much realizing that wehad this huge gap to fill, but
also the issue was that a lot ofthe things that we were already
(25:23):
doing weren't impactful.
With our digital led programmeaning we use Loom to create
videos in order to make sure ourclients got some sort of update
from a human or a CSM, and I,as a leader, on Fridays would
spend time reviewing either ourGONG recordings or Loom videos
(25:45):
that were being sent out.
So I can fully understand.
Are we approaching the problemcorrectly?
But also, are we beingimpactful with what we're doing
with our customers and are wedriving value in these
conversations?
And I started to see theanalytics out of Loom and it was
very rare that any of it wasbeing watched through.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Really.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Open rates were very low of emails, but also the Loom
video was just not beingwatched through and these are
like 20, 30 minute videos thatwe were doing because they were
in depth of product education orwhat's on the roadmap or what
you're missing and not using inyour account correctly, almost
like an account health checkcall as well.
(26:25):
So a lot of the content wasvery valuable but just wasn't
being watched and because ofthat I decided to apply
something in the VTC world thatwas on the rise into B2B and the
idea came from me, from beingon TikTok.
I will openly say I'm addictedto that app.
I sometimes scroll and I'm likeoh my gosh.
(26:47):
An hour has gone by.
What has just happened with mylife?
Speaker 2 (26:51):
But the rise of TikTok.
That happened.
I have TikTok guilt on a dailybasis.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, like the amount of things I send to my friends
or my family on TikTok isridiculous.
But coming back to the rise ofshort form video content, and.
I was like, oh my gosh, becauseit's like seven seconds or 20
seconds.
Yeah, I'll watch it, yeah, I'llflip through it, yeah, I'll
absorb that content, because mybrain had that much energy to
(27:17):
watch that.
And I was like, why don't wetake the same idea and apply it
to our business reviews or ourclient calls?
And this was again.
It was on the rise in 2021.
So in 22, we decided, okay,let's do what I called a CS
trailer, and a CS trailer isbasically giving you a little
(27:38):
sneak peek into what it is youcan get if you book a call with
us or if you want to go into forthe one to many customers into
a round table discussion webinarwhere a CSM can elaborate on
new product feature releases oron educating you on something
within your account.
So all I did is challenge ourCSMs to make Loom videos that
(28:01):
were max 90 seconds, and the 90second video had to be something
that was impactful, thatcaptured attention, that was
able for the CSM to actuallythen drive value but also get
the customer to do the call toaction, which is book in more
time to either discuss youraccount in detail or join a
webinar.
We thought 33% increase inpeople actually watching the
(28:24):
video and engaging with it andthen booking the calls.
So for us, we used Loom and thedata that it was lacking and
then applied concepts of ticktalk to what we said was a CS
trailer.
And we first started with justbooking the calls, but we also
then started to challenge and dodigital QBRs, but in 90 seconds
(28:45):
, and again challenging to makesure you're able to capture
someone's attention in 90seconds or less.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Yeah, it is.
It is a challenge to do thatbecause 90 seconds, you know,
depending on what you're doing,you can either seem really
really short or really long, butlike it goes into, basically
it's micro learning, is whatyou're producing, right, it's
(29:12):
like a digestible bite size,chunks that anyone can go and
consume really quickly, which Ithink is super compelling,
because it sounds to me, likeyou know before, it was almost
like watching the recorded call,right, which who really watches
recorded calls?
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I do sometimes yeah, exactly, but who even pays
attention in an hour.
Call QBR Like.
Are you getting the attentionof full hour?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Were you getting into like persona versions of that?
Would you do something for anexecutive buyer versus a user or
a champion, or is thatsomething that you've dabbled
with?
We only?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
had one persona because we were channeling those
solopreneurs that I talkedabout.
So it was just like thebusiness owner that didn't have
the time but also used so manyparts of our product.
It was really a great casestudy story because they were
using us so well, but they're asolopreneur, they only had so
much time, so they were theexecutive buyer, but also they
(30:20):
were the people that needed themost education but didn't have
the time to give us.
So we targeted that as our firstdraft of our, I guess, persona
that we were choosing.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
I love the notion of this because one of the things
that a lot of guests say on theshow is this notion that digital
one of the byproducts or one ofthe primary goals of digital
would be to make sure that yourhumans are spending their time
(30:55):
having valuable conversationswith their customer, instead of
like sending the same email 50times in a row.
And I would say that if you'repulling up a customer's health
score, support tickets, all thatkind of stuff, you're spending
a couple minutes reviewing that.
You're shooting a 90 minuteloom sending that out.
(31:15):
I would say that's incrediblyhigh value activity that you're
engaged with and it iscompletely like now.
It is a really cool combination, but human element and the
digital element that I think iskind of the gold standard in
digital CS these days.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Yeah, and I think that that's what people forget.
I think a lot of.
I'm sure you've talked to a lotof guests that feel the same
where, oh, I need to send likean email campaign, or it needs
to be an AI bot or it needs tobe an in-app message or
something like that, and there'snothing wrong with all of those
pieces by the way.
But I have always built DigitalCS where you already have a
(31:56):
layer of customer success.
But how do you add technologyinto that human element?
And whether that's a one-to-oneloom video or whether that's a
one-to-many webinar, I stillthink the only way another human
is going to engage is with somelevel of human interaction,
whether that's the loom video,whether that's a webinar,
(32:18):
whatever it is.
A lot of times in-app thingsare closed off and, yes, they
might be good for an answering aquestion quick here or there,
but to deliver value it's tough.
I think it's really tough ifyou only take the digital route
and not the human side.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
And with those short attention spans, man like you
got to get on it.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
It's getting shorter every day.
Yeah it is Funny.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Actually, this morning I was on TikTok and I
saw this.
It was a pretty funny video ofyou know.
It was just a guy walking downthe street or whatever and he's
having a you know he's shootinga selfie, TikTok type situation.
And he was talking about how,like you know, kids these days
they're all like into the 90s,like the 90s are making a
(33:04):
comeback.
And then he was saying, likeyou know, okay, well, you know,
your parents relate to pick youup for us.
The coach took the balls away.
What are you doing?
You're staring at the sidewalkand then you're looking back at
the goalpost and welcome to the90s.
you know, because you don't havethis phone in your hand and it,
you know he gave a couple ofexamples like that, but it's
(33:24):
like yeah, art, you know the waywe consume things has obviously
changed a lot, you know, inthose few decades since the 90s.
But, like the because, of andreels and all those kinds of
social media things thateverybody's engaging in.
They're expecting kind of likethis, this scroll element of
(33:45):
where it's like quick,digestible, to the point and
let's move on.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
No, definitely.
I think in general, like, ifyou think about it, it applies
to our daily lives, to the moretechnology we get inundated with
, the more we just want thequick answer or the quick value
add of what we're here for.
I mean even an email you want.
If you want something for me,just tell me in the in the first
(34:13):
few lines, like giving me threeparagraphs is, I will glance at
it, but you will get a responsemuch later because I need to
give you much more of myattention span for three verses.
Even nowadays we have slack,external slack channels with our
customers and usually a quickslack is much easier, like a one
(34:34):
sentence, like hey, did you dothis or did this work well, is
much easier than sitting andcomposing an email and thinking
of like all this jargon andattaching these documents and
doing all these things.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, exactly One.
One kind of tactical thing orpractical example of kind of
short attention span, but alsocontextual.
You know relevance that Ipicked up on the other day.
I don't know if you're a Notionuser or if you have ever used
Notion.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
I'm seeing a lot more people using it.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
I recently onboarded on it and I've been getting
these onboarding emails not likeonce a week, not once a day,
but every like few hours.
They're short, they're sweet,they look really good, but I
think one of the most brilliantelements of it that I don't know
why more people aren't doingthis is, the subject is
(35:33):
literally the action.
That's your next step.
It's like this one I'm lookingto give your team a home.
That's the subject.
But next to the subject isthree slash eight, so three out
of eight being in the subjectline.
They're giving you thecontextual information of where
you are in that journey, which Ithink is brilliant, because
(35:55):
that's something that a lot ofpeople lack Like in their
onboarding journeys.
It's like, okay, they'reexpecting folks to do XYZ, but
the problem is the customerdoesn't know there's only XYZ
right of where they are in thatwhole journey.
And I just either thought somany things about the
conciseness, but then also, youknow, moving the relevance of
(36:15):
the position in the journey isabsolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, I've had notions since the dawn of time,
so like I remember being on thewaitlist to even join notions,
so they definitely didn't havethat level of onboarding for me.
But that's really cool thatthey give you, like, bite size.
Do this today, like, or thishour do this, and then the next
hour do this and tomorrow dothis, based on again I'm
(36:40):
guessing what their typical userjourney flow looks like to them
on their end and they've takenthat data and then translated
back at.
This is what most people seesuccess with.
That is what digital is reallyis translating back the data to
get you from point A to point Bas quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Yep, that's, that's so true.
Anyway, figure, that was alittle fun side branch.
You know we try to be as as asas full of contextual examples
of what, what digital is in thepod.
But anyway, speaking of whichyou know, are there, are there
some things that you've seen,like out in the wild, or things
(37:18):
that you've developed or havebeen part of your programs, that
have been, like you know,particularly like memorable
digital motions.
I mean, we all get those thingsonce in a while and we're like,
oh, that's cool, I know whatthey're doing and that's really
cool.
Like, are there some examplesof things that you've seen
recently or in your past thatyou think are are cool?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
The one thing that comes to mind that isn't new but
I think is brilliant and hasalways done well.
As Spotify wrapped, I alwaysthink that that is just.
That is hard.
If I think about that from a CSperspective, I know they don't
care because it's beat, let'sbeat to see, and they're mostly
just trying to show you whatyou've listened to.
But subliminally, they aretrying to show that you got
(38:02):
value out of using our softwareto listen to music over this
last year and this is how yougot value.
And they did it in a joyousmanner, which I think is
something that is can beabsorbed and learned in customer
success and in digital customersuccess is.
They gave you stats, but theymade it fun and they made you
want to go through that as well.
(38:26):
And I think YouTube does this aswell, and I recently saw that,
like your most viewed videos,like what you've watched this
week, like what's been searchedfor, like what have you searched
for, and they give you likesummaries in this way, and I
think that they're just showingyou that, hey, you have logged
on to our software orapplication, this is what you've
done and this is the valueyou've seen over it, but they
(38:48):
didn't even have to give you anyhard revenue numbers.
Once I get my Spotify wrappedevery year, I'm like, well, duh,
I'm going to keep using Spotifybecause income and, like Apple
music and every other musicprovider, has not caught on to
how joyous.
They deliver data.
They deliver transactional datain a fun way that makes it
(39:11):
super engaging for their enduser to want to know what
they've been up to.
And if you think about that,that's customer success and its
simplicity.
And I think that if we were toapply something that simple in
the sense that we are deliveringdata or metrics or ROI of our
product to our customer, but canwe do it in a way that is
(39:31):
joyous and enjoyable to them?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Then amazing, right yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
Well, so many times we're not celebrating, we're
calling out, we're reacting tothings that have gone, we're
looking at telemetry andfocusing on the things that are
typically signs of churn orwhatever.
But I think we should be doingmore of these celebratory type
(39:58):
things, and I think some of thebest brands they're the best
brands because they do that kindof stuff you know celebrate
your wins, whatever that may be,whether it's uploads or
downloads or sideloads orwhatever else.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
I don't know what that is.
Oh, maybe it's a QR code.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
Can I throw that in now?
Yeah, oh good.
Excellent Point to Nika.
But, like you know, it's thatcelebratory aspect of things
that builds camaraderie, buildsrapport, builds kind of a sense
of team and togetherness andcollaboration.
That I think is crazy important, especially, you know, since
(40:42):
we're all being bombarded with 5million negative things these
days.
It's nice to celebrate thosethings, I know.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
And it did it in a celebratory way, but also it's a
delivered value.
Like I tell a lot of my co-g's,like when you are speaking to
your customer, you have todeliver value in what you're
doing.
You don't have to have anupsell conversation, you don't
have to sell hard in an email,but you have to deliver value
because if they see the value,they're going to pay, just like
we see the value of usingSpotify.
(41:08):
When Spotify does their Spotifywrap, I'm like I don't even
question like, oh, I'm not goingto use Spotify now because they
just delivered value and theyjust told me how much I use
their product.
So, if anything, I'm probablyover utilizing and paying
nothing for it, because theymade me feel that, oh my gosh,
and you could listen to so manyX hours of music and she got joy
(41:31):
from it Great.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
They didn't even have to tell me a price on it there
was no money on that Spotifywrap and even as a creator, you
know getting those things as, as, as you know, someone who
uploads Spotify or publishes toSpotify it's like those stats
that they provide you as acreator makes you want to just
like be publishing on Spotify,of course.
(41:53):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
I'm sure you get it.
I was like.
I was like I'm sure you'vegotten your year-end stuff, yeah
.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Absolutely.
It's fun to look at, and what'sinteresting to me is what it'll
look like next year, because Imean, I, you know this, the
podcast is seven months old,something like that, so I
haven't had a full year in thehopper.
I'm interested to see what nextyear looks like, because I know
at that point they'll switchfrom like you've had this many
X's and this many X's to likehey, this is your growth year
over year and and and all that.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Exactly and basically doing digital CS, I think in
the most amazing way, becauseit's all in just the short video
content that's like hey, youused it this way and you've seen
growth and this is yourfavorite song this year.
And the thing is, is it's justpart of their bigger strategy,
because come January or FebruaryI don't, I don't remember when
(42:42):
it happened they give you the.
You are most played, 2020.
They automatically create yourplaylist from last year.
So, if you want to listen toyour top songs of last year,
it's just, it's just, it's justthere for you.
So they're almost providing abetter experience by doing
something for you, which, again,is the follow up to their, to
their rap series.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I think, I think you know there are so many examples
in B to C that we can pull themto B.
B to B with very minimal kindof tweaking, like B2C has been
good at this digital stuff for along time, I mean, you think.
I mean rewards programs havebeen around forever, you know,
(43:23):
and those kinds of things likethat kind of gamification of
value is something that isn't anew thing.
But you know, for some I thinkmy take on it anyway is that
that I think B2B for a long timefelt that it was kind of
childish and it didn't belong inkind of B2B, when in my opinion
(43:44):
it absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I just I find it always amazing because B2B or
B2C were all humans.
Like a business is created outof humans, the person you're
speaking to at the other endisn't Coca-Cola Incorporated.
There is someone who there's ahuman on that other side.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
That is your customer .
It's just Bill.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, exactly, and I'm just like he's not Coca-Cola
or he's not like you know, he'snot this major organization
that you're speaking to.
You're speaking to a human andthat human wants to build some
sort of relationship with you,whether that's digitally or in
person.
They want to build some sort ofrapport and they want to feel
like they're connected to yoursoftware and that they're
(44:24):
getting value out of yoursoftware.
So how you facilitate that as aCSM or a digital CS leader or
person, it's just a human.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Just a human In fact, I've used that phrase a long
time when you know, a lot ofpeople get really, really worked
up like meeting with executivesand meeting whoever.
It is, like you know somebodywith a big fancy title.
I'm just, it's just a person.
It's a person.
Yeah, they have differenttraits or whatever.
Right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
It's crazy.
Like they're like, oh, I wantto, I want to like they get so,
so much happier when the head of, or VP of, cs is on a call with
them and I'm like, but my CSMis going to do way more for you
than I can.
I can stick it with my bigfancy title, but I'm not doing
anything for you here.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah yeah, it is.
It is amazing.
That is amazing that kind ofmentality around the title.
It's a thing, it's a.
Thing.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
It is, and I actually recently shared that you are so
much more than your title,because I also believe that,
again, someone who's been instartups for the last 12 years,
like your title, could be headof nothing.
Your title could also then behead of everything.
So it just it totally doesn'tmatter, but it does matter the
impact you drive and the valueyou drive and the value you
(45:50):
bring to the business.
And the same thing goes whenyou're speaking to customers.
If they're the CEO or ifthey're just an analyst that
you're working with or an intern, it doesn't matter.
They just want to drive value,they want an outcome out of that
call, and that we're all humans.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah, exactly, and a good CSM is going to be head of
our relationship, right, exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
You're the CEO of this relationship, that's right,
absolutely.
Speaker 2 (46:20):
You're a founding member, I believe, of CS Angel,
which is an awesome organization, and I'm curious maybe to get
some insight from you on.
We gave some practical examplesof digital CS, but are there
some platforms and sometechnology that's emerging that
you're paying attention to, aspart of that org or otherwise,
(46:43):
that are worth mentioning?
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Yeah, I think being a part of CS Angel means I get to
see lots of pitches or earlystage businesses really showcase
their product and what they'retrying to bring to market.
When it comes to customersuccess In relation to digital,
I think there's been a reallyhot product around, and I know
Dickie's been doing a lot aroundCastApp and having a digital
(47:08):
CSM is, I think, the next stageof what digital CS will be.
So I really believe that whatDickie and everyone at CastApp
is doing is going to be great.
I think foresight is anotherone.
I don't know if it's going toapply to full customer success,
just not digital CS, but theyare really helping enterprise
(47:28):
SaaS leaders really be able toforecast retention and expansion
, and I think a lot ofeverything in CS, whether it's
digital or not, is very laggingindicators, and we definitely
need a space to be leading,especially with digital.
With digital being so heavilyinfluenced by data and making
data driven decisions, you doneed to have a tool in place
(47:52):
that's able to forecast for youwith confidence, and I think
foresight is one of those aswell.
And then the last one that I'llbring up is Bagel.
I was really impressed by whatthey're trying to do in digital
CS.
We are constantly gettingfeedback on what's working and
what's not working in theproduct side of things and I
think Bagel is trying tobasically be the glue between
(48:14):
product and commercial teams andthey're really trying to make
sure that they tie feature torevenue opportunities, and I
think that that's a big missingpiece within the way we collect
feedback as CS professionals.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Really is.
I mean, there's a lot ofemphasis that's put on the
relationship between sales andCS, but I think just under the
surface there is thatrelationship between product and
CS that's probably equally, ifnot more, important.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
So that's definitely how we capture that and how we
continue to build for a productthat's customer centric, I think
is going to be critical and keyas businesses scale and grow.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
That's awesome.
That's great.
I appreciate that.
And yeah, dickie is going to beon the podcast at some point
early next year, so yeah, he'samazing.
He's such a great guy yeah,exactly, well, you look as we
kind of round out ourconversations.
I've really appreciated yourtime.
I'd love to kind of first andforemost, know what's in your
content diet.
(49:14):
I mean, you're known forproducing a lot of great content
and I've been the.
I've benefited from your greatcontent.
But what are you payingattention to?
Speaker 1 (49:25):
This is so hard to say because I feel like I
consume in different ways and,as a podcast host, I don't
listen to as many podcasts as Iprobably should because I'm
hosting them.
But I do love three podcaststhat I'm going to say that are
business related.
Is I love this is growth byDaphne.
She's done a great job ofreally connecting CS to growth
(49:48):
overall, not just specificallywithin customer success.
But how does it grow thebusiness?
I really like revenue today,another great podcast focusing
around revenue as well.
I do, like I.
It's hard to keep listing allthe CS podcast because, again, I
have my own and I don't evenlisten to my own podcast.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
But I think another.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
it's hard to, it's hard to listen to yourself.
But I think other ways that Iconsume content is truly through
LinkedIn.
There's just so many peoplethat are sharing so much on
there.
There's a number of thoughtleaders, a number of people who
have won awards that Iconstantly have, like star, that
I always keep coming back towhat they have to share.
(50:35):
I personally really love CSoffice hours through gain go
retain, but also through JanYoung's CS office hours, like I
just think having those smallergroups where you're able to
exchange ideas is great.
And I really consume a lot ofcontent via conferences.
funny enough, and even though Iget invited to speak at
conferences, I actually reallyconsume a lot of side
(50:58):
conversation content atconferences, meaning like
there's a group of people thatstart discussing how CS is done
at their org versus another, andI feel like that's another
great way to consume content.
So a mix of all the above, butI have to say that I think
there's just so much out therethat you have to find out what
works for you, like podcastsonly work for me when I'm
(51:19):
driving in the car.
Cs office hours is usually likean hour of my day every now and
then, and then conferences isonly once a quarter, so that's
how I tend to break down myconsumption of.
Speaker 2 (51:29):
CS.
Yeah, that's great, that's cool.
I appreciate you sharing that.
Is there any anyone that youwould like to give kind of a
shout out to, or a group ofpeople that are doing digital?
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Yeah, I would say, in focusing on digital CS, I had
Dan Ennis on my podcast and he'sat Mondaycom and he is building
scaled customer success atMondaycom and he has so many
tips, tricks, insights oneverything he's doing when it
comes to truly focusing only onscaled and only on digital.
(52:04):
So Dan's a brilliant bucket ofinformation when it comes to
scale than digital.
And I think the other two thatalways come to mind when I think
of digital is Jay, nathan andJeff at HireLogic.
The two of them always sharehow community is the additional
pillar within digital CS and Ireally appreciate that.
(52:25):
They're always sharing abouthow you can be human as well as
digital within using customercommunities to leverage that.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Totally.
I was just looking back atepisodes.
I think Jeff is episode five,if you want to go listen to that
, and Dan is episode 15.
Dude, dan is like that amazingcombination of like humble,
(52:54):
crazy smart and just like opento share, like the stuff that he
talked about, how he's likeidentifying personas based on
data habits and data trends.
Yes, come on, let's go.
Yeah, but it's great.
Speaker 1 (53:10):
I feel like he's like a data analyst mixed with a
marketeer, mixed with a CSleader, and it's just amazing
how many levers he pulls on tobuild out his scaled motion, and
it's so cool to ask himquestions and watch his mind
unfold.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
What's funny is I ask every guest who they want to
shout out on these episodes, andwhat I typically do is, when I
go to publish an episode, I'lljust message the people that got
the shout outs and just say hey, by the way, somebody shouted
you out, dan, I kid you not.
Our LinkedIn thread is justlike hey so, and so shouted you
(53:48):
out.
Hey, hey so, and so shouted youout.
Speaker 1 (53:51):
That's awesome.
That's also a great thing.
You follow up with that.
Maybe I'm going to steal that,by the way, because I asked at
the end of my podcast.
Who would you next want to haveas a guest, or who would you
shout out?
And I never.
I put them on a list, but Inever actually message them to
let them know.
So I should, I should, do that.
Speaker 2 (54:06):
It just feels it feels good.
You know it's one of those feelgood things.
Look, I am the one that'skeeping you from not only a
Friday evening but a fun holidaythere with the Gainsight crew
in London.
So I'm going to shut up and I'mgoing to let you go and I'm
going to thank you very much foryour time and your energy on a
Friday afternoon and it was justawesome talking to you and I
(54:30):
can't wait to do it again atsome point in the future.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Thank you so much for having me on.
This was so much fun and, asalways, it's nice to be on this
side of the podcast recording.
So thank you so much for havingme.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
Thank you for joining me for this episode of the
digital customer success podcast.
If you like what we're doing,consider leaving us a review on
your podcast platform of choice.
It really helps us to grow andto provide value to a broader
audience.
You can view the digitalcustomer success definition word
map and get more details aboutthe show at
digitalcustomersuccesscom.
My name is Alex Turkovich.
(55:03):
Thanks again for joining andwe'll see you next time.
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