July 24, 2025 • 48 mins
Navigating a career in project management today means wrestling with more than just Gantt charts and stakeholder standups—it means making high-stakes decisions about your salary, your specialization, and what brings you meaning at work. In this panel episode, Kelsey Alpaio brings together PM thought leaders Ben Chan, Mackenzie Dysart, and Elizabeth Harrin for a candid conversation on how to design your PM career with both pay and purpose in mind.
Together, they unpack fresh data from DPM’s 2025 Salary Guide and tackle some of the most pressing questions PMs are facing right now: Should you specialize or stay a generalist? When do certifications actually help? Is it ever too late to take control of your career? And how do you make confident moves when AI and automation are reshaping the role in real time? This is a jam-packed episode full of tactical tools, honest reflections, and grounded advice for anyone looking to take the reins of their project career.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Ben, Mackenzie, and Elizabeth on LinkedIn
- Check out Thoughtworks and Rebel’s Guide to Project Management
- Organized Chaos Café – Ben’s podcast
- Managing Multiple Projects – Elizabeth’s book
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:05):
My name is Kelsey Alpaio, I’m the Executive Editor
for The Digital Project Manager.
And today's session will focuson Designing Your PM Career
for More Pay and Purpose,and we'll be speaking with
some of the top voices andthought leaders in this space.
We have Ben Chan.
Ben is a project leadershipcoach, speaker, and facilitator
who's helped hundreds ofproject managers lead with
(00:27):
confidence and purpose.
With over 15 years ofexperience across industries
and multi-million dollarprojects, he brings a practical,
humorous approach to projectleadership that's earned him
a spot as one of LinkedIn'stop 3 PM creators in Canada.
He's also the hostof the podcast, the
Organized Chaos Café.
We also have Mackenzie Dysart,a PMP and CSM certified
(00:51):
Project Manager with overa decade of experience.
She's a bit of a unicornas she actually chose to
be a PM as a career path.
And she is currently a DeliveryPrincipal for Thoughtworks
leading one of the largestaccounts in the Americas.
And we have Elizabeth Harrin,an award-winning blogger,
author, and speaker with20 plus years of project
(01:13):
management experience acrossIT, finance and healthcare.
Her book Managing MultipleProjects was a 2023 Business
Book Awards finalist.
She speaks globally onstakeholder engagement,
careers, and productivity.
And you can learn more abouther work at rebelsguidetopm.com.
All of us, at some point inour careers have probably asked
(01:35):
ourselves some version of thequestion, "Am I on the right
path?" Maybe you've thoughtabout switching industries,
maybe you've considered gettingcertified, or maybe you've even
considered moving cities tohelp you earn a higher salary.
So I wanna get into somedata at the top here.
For example, according toour 2025 Salary Guide, PMs in
(01:56):
software and IT are making about$23,000 more than PMs in Media,
Marketing, and Advertising.
In the US, certified PMs areearning $13,000 more than
their uncertified peers.
And if you lived in New Jersey,for example, you would be among
the highest paid PMs in the US.
So some of those moves couldhelp you earn more, but that's
(02:19):
not an easy decision to maketo change your career path.
And with the role of projectmanagement evolving so
fast, it's getting harder tofigure out where to focus.
Do you specialize?
Do you stay a generalist?
Do you chase titles?
Or do you chasemeaning and purpose?
That's what we're divinginto today, how to design a
career that works for you,one that grows your paycheck,
(02:41):
but also your purpose.
Let's start with thebig picture here.
I threw out a lot of statsthere from our 2025 Salary
Guide that showed that PMsare earning significantly more
depending on their industry,certifications, and location.
I'd love to hear what ourpanelists have to think
about some of this data.
So what standsout to all of you?
Elizabeth, do youwanna start us off?
Elizabeth Harrin (03:02):
Yeah.
I look through the data andit's really interesting to
see the variability withinthe project profession.
Entry level jobs,there's very senior jobs.
There's space for everybody inlots of different industries.
But I think that makes it harderfor us to plan our careers
purposefully, potentially.
'cause you've got to takeinto effect so many different
categories like geography,what benefits come with the
(03:24):
job, the gender pay gap.
All of those things canreally influence your salary.
Kelsey Alpaio (03:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mackenzie, what weresome of your initial
reactions to this data?
Mackenzie Dysart (03:33):
You and I have had separate chats about
this and I went deep on it.
If you read the review,lots of quotes from me,
so you'll see my face.
I have feelings, but I thinkthe most interesting piece
is of course, gender pay gap.
I always find that reallyfascinating, but also to
me, it doesn't surpriseme that jersey's high paid
because Jersey very close toNew York, cheaper to live.
People are trying tofigure out how best to
(03:54):
optimize their money.
And I think given the stateof the economics globally,
we've all kind of seen a bitof a tightening of belts.
And so I'm not surprised,but I do know that there's
ways to make it work for you.
And I think the more we talkabout salaries, the more we
talk about these things, themore equality and equity there
will be, and we can just, theseconversations are important
(04:14):
for everybody's growth.
Kelsey Alpaio (04:15):
Yeah, definitely.
Go check out the guide.
Lots of great quotesfrom Mackenzie in there.
And Ben, what are your initialreactions to this data?
Ben Chan (04:23):
Yeah.
I think right now especially,we're seeing a lot of volatility
in the market and all sortsof different industries
that we've never expected.
Overall, I'm thinking,man, I got, we gotta
work on Canada's salary.
That's what I'm thinking.
But I think at the same timethere's the variability in terms
of the different industries iswe're seeing a rise of a lot
(04:43):
of different industries thatdidn't exist a long time ago.
We heard about howmeta poached, I think.
One of the AI engineersfor a huge sum of money.
I'm probably misquoting it, butI thought it was something in
the range of like $200 million.
And so there's all these otherrising industries, while we're
probably seeing some other onesstart to go and collapse, right?
(05:05):
Like in Canada, we've hadone of our biggest retailers
of Hudson Bay Company wherethey've collapsed and they
used to have a huge footprintin so many different areas.
And so these changingtimes reflect how I think.
Even though we might have anaverage, I'd be very interested
in seeing what is the highand the low points, what
is that range looking like?
And the numbers behindthose ones as well.
(05:26):
It's where statisticiansand things dive into it and
you can pull out some reallyinteresting conclusions.
Kelsey Alpaio (05:32):
Absolutely.
We are gonna talk alot about salary today.
As we unpack the report,but I do want to start by
acknowledging that it's notall just about the money, and
I get it that it can feel likea hard thing to say right now
given the economic climate,but the reality is that we
spend a huge part of our livesat work and it's fair to want
(05:54):
more than just a paycheck.
So how should we be thinkingabout balancing those two
pillars of pay and purpose and.
When you're facing a toughcareer decision, how do you
weigh one against the other?
Mackenzie, do you wanna getus started with this one?
Mackenzie Dysart (06:10):
Absolutely.
Balancing this purpose is sucha great word because it's not
just necessarily your valuesor are you just happy at work?
Is it making you feelfulfilled, and that is a
piece that makes the workingeasier and more enjoyable.
I am a big proponent of tryingto do work for companies that
(06:31):
you work for, if you can.
I had the opportunity to workfor an agency that was primarily
supporting nonprofits, and thatwas a really great space to be
for a while, but at some pointthe work wasn't as fulfilling,
so I needed to make a change.
Now I work with alot more for-profits.
My client is a for-profitorganization, but I like
their culture and what theystand for, and if you can find
places that align with what'simportant to you on top of
(06:53):
a salary, that makes sense.
That's really important.
So some of the areas that Ithink I look for when I am
looking at salaries consideringthe next role, is what is
the total compensation?
And I come at itfrom a Canadian lens.
So healthcare, I know that's abenefit for our folks in the US.
For us, it's more likewhat are those extended
benefits look like?
Am I gonna get additionalmassage, physio mental
(07:16):
health coverage?
My company right now hasa great extra bonus for
mental health coverage.
Is it enough?
It's never enough.
'cause mental healthcare is expensive.
But we have that extra bonus.
And then what arethe other amenities?
Is there a flexiblework schedule?
Do you have to be inthe office all the time?
If you are in an in-officeplace, is there still the
flexibility to work fromhome if you've got things
(07:37):
going on in your life becausethere are family, there are
other needs around your life.
And if you can have thatwork life balance in a sense
of, yes, I'm usually in theoffice Tuesday to Thursday,
but this week I've got aplumber coming by on Wednesday.
I need to work from home.
And that not being anissue and that just
being par for the course.
That's really important.
Looking at how the policiesthat are available.
(07:57):
Is parental leaveavailable to both genders?
Is it available to people whoare looking to adopt as well?
Like how does thatall factor in?
And anything else that'sreally important to you?
Are there days for volunteering?
Is there professionaldevelopment, budget
available to you?
All of these little piecesthat can actually make your
work life a little bit better.
(08:18):
We have some great ritualsat ThoughtWorks that pertain
to just building community.
It's called Gather.
So every once a month we have athing in our office in Toronto,
but we also allow it at hubsaround Canada so that people
can get together and just havea meal, share a drink, share a
moment together to build thatconnection so that you're.
You've got a little bit morepurpose and alignment with
(08:39):
the people that you're workingwith, and those pieces of
community and team buildingcan be really important.
I'm a really socialperson, so for me those
are really important.
But if you're someone whoreally doesn't care to meet
the people that you're workingwith, you just wanna get
your job done, do the thing.
Also totally realistic.
Finding a place that alignswith that is also really good.
So it's.
(08:59):
Doing the research andunderstanding all the different
aspects of what makes you happyin your day to day, and finding
a way for that to fit together.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love thinking about itfrom the benefits perspective
too, where those thingsadd up to how you feel at
work, even if you aren't asconnected to the work itself.
So that's a really interestingway to look at things.
And I had the same reactionas Crystal, which is.
Should I just move to Canada?
Like when I found out some ofyou have like massages that
(09:29):
are covered in your healthinsurance, I was like, maybe
I should move to Canada.
But yeah.
Elizabeth, how would youdescribe balancing that
pay and purpose aspectwhen career planning?
Elizabeth Harrin (09:41):
I think it's easier to get the balance when
you've already got the base paythat supports the cost of living
and the lifestyle that you want.
It's better if you can findan industry that supports
your values as well.
So I moved from financialservices to healthcare.
I didn't really know what I wasgetting into when I moved into
healthcare, but in financialservices, in insurance, we sell
(10:04):
products and you make moneywhen people don't use them.
And in healthcare peopleon their worst days.
And projects that I do asa project manager help our
clinical staff deliver thebest possible patient care.
So there's a very differenttouchpoint with the end
result of the projectsthat we're working on.
And I felt so much morefulfilled in healthcare.
(10:25):
I didn't take the job inhealthcare 'cause I thought
it aligned to my values, butI ended up there and actually
it was a really good move forme 'cause it really felt like
it was a much better fit.
And the job has purpose,but it's very easy to
feel worthy and say it'sall great about values.
If you're being paid enoughto feed your kids and
pay for childcare and dothat, so that does have
to be a bit of a balance.
(10:46):
Working out how muchdo you need to live?
What's your basic, whatdo you want to be paying
into your pension?
What do you need for yourhealthcare if you don't get
massages included, but you wantto have one every month, and
then you can start to think,okay, so am I going into an
industry where it's goingto be more highly paid and
it's still going to meet mypersonal goals and my values?
Kelsey Alpaio (11:05):
Absolutely.
And Ben, I was wondering if youcould chime in with this next
question, which is, are there,tools, exercises, frameworks
that you've used or that youuse with your clients that
can help PMs clarify, whatthey want from their career?
What are the thingsthat matter to them?
How do you make thesetough decisions?
What are yourthoughts around that?
Ben Chan (11:25):
Sure.
No, that's a great question.
'cause I think.
When we try and processit in our head, it
can be very difficult.
We have all these numbers andthings, and you're like maybe
this one's better than this one.
And so one tool I love beingable to use is something
called a decision wheel, right?
And so pay and purpose can besome parts of that decision,
wheel or pie, whatever youwant to go and call it, right?
(11:47):
But then it's lookingand understanding what
are all the other factorsthat are contributing to
you making a decision.
So whether this is about yourcareer or anything else, you
can use this, but specificallyfor a career decision, it
could be, again, the piecesof remote work of benefits
and all of those start to addinto pieces of the pie, right?
Of pay and purpose andadding those ones on.
(12:09):
And then you have to go throughand rank them and say, which
ones are most important to you?
Is it pay?
Is it culture?
Is it perhaps the location?
How far it is from your house?
All of those things have.
Different impacts on you,and you rank all of them.
Now as you come forwardwith other options that
come up, say there's acareer decision to make.
(12:30):
Do I leave to this other oneor do I stay at this one?
Then you go ahead and rank them,go through those ones, and it
then becomes just a simple,almost multiplication exercise
to go and say out 10 pay isa 10, and this one ranked as
a three, so it's 30 points.
And then you can actually seehow each of those different
pieces of the pie, you canactually even color it in.
(12:51):
And see how it all looks.
So you can do almost likea graphical view as to
what your decision lookslike, and you'd be actually
surprised of how sometimesyou might overran something
or maybe you actually findyour priorities are different
than what you thought it was.
Once you see those decisionscoming out, and it's always
good to make sure as wellto consider your status quo
of what if I just stayedwhere I am right now?
(13:12):
Maybe that's the bestdecision as well.
You don't have tomake a decision.
So the decision wheel toolis something that I like to
go and use to help betterdefine and quantify what some
of these intangibles are.
Kelsey Alpaio (13:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mackenzie or Elizabeth, doyou have any other like frames
or tools that you've usedin the past to help you make
these sorts of decisions?
Mackenzie Dysart (13:33):
I went through this exercise similar
to what Ben mentioned, butactually I went through
it with my therapist.
And it can be done.
This exercise, it's likea values waiting situation
where it was just cards ofwhat values mattered the
most to me, and some of themwould be like honesty versus
transparency or honesty versussomeone showing up on time.
(13:54):
It was an exercise that we wouldgo through the cards and it was,
which one's the most important?
And I had to pick one everysingle time, and it narrowed you
down to all of a sudden I hadthis top 10 list of core values
that were really importantto me in the workplace.
And that allowed me to sitand understand why I was
feeling the way that I wasfeeling at a job in my past.
And it had a huge aspect to dowith the fact that there was.
(14:16):
Misalignment with my moralvalues and what was happening.
And there's a term thatkind of goes around in the
industry called moral injury.
It's a little bit differentthan burnout in the sense of
it's when you and your companyaren't jiving, they aren't
matching for whatever reason.
And that's where I was ina place of, but it took me,
going through this exerciseto truly understand honesty
(14:36):
is not what isn't to me asimportant as transparency.
Just being upfront that,Hey, I can't tell you
this, but this is going on.
Or yes, I understand.
But X and just giving thatextra information, that context
is really important to meas a person, as an employee.
So that allowed me tounderstand, you know what,
this is time where status quodoesn't work for me anymore.
(14:57):
I need to start looking forthe next thing because this
is just, I can't get out ofthis in this current role
because of the misalignmentand values, and I think.
That helped me reallymake decisions.
'cause otherwise I'm very badat just giving everything the
same or like equally high orequally low measurements on some
of those other scaling things.
So this really forceddecisions and I found it
exceptionally helpful.
(15:18):
I'm sure there are waysyou can do this online.
There's probably online toolsthat I don't know about,
but highly recommend forall aspects of your life.
Elizabeth Harrin (15:25):
We did something similar at work
quite a few years ago now, andit was like a questionnaire.
You tick various differentoptions and then it gave
you your motivating factorsand working in healthcare,
we went around the roomand everyone was like, oh,
I'm motivated by caring.
I'm motivated bydoing a great job.
And mine was, I'mmotivated by money.
I think if you, whatever you do,whatever exercise you do, you
(15:47):
have to think is probably just acontextually driven position at
any one moment in time, becauseI reckon if I did that now.
Probably would havedifferent values.
I'm at a different placein my life and maybe my
motivating factors would bemore like a flexible working
and being able to be athome with the kids and stuff
like that in a way that theyweren't in my early thirties.
So I think just bear in mindthat if you are going to use
(16:09):
these kind of tools that theydon't define you in just kind of
one position, you could probablywill end up finding that while
your core values that you'dlike to think will stay the
same, maybe there'll be a littlebit of movement as you grow
into your career in some way.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:23):
Absolutely.
I think that's a great point.
The next question I have here isfor accidental PMs, so I forget
Mackenzie, I know we said youintentionally chose the PM path.
Elizabeth and Ben, would youconsider yourself accidental
PMs or is this the career paththat you chose for yourself?
Elizabeth Harrin (16:38):
This is the career path that
I chose for myself.
Admittedly, being at university,I didn't even know that
project management was a job.
As soon as I got into theworkplace, quickly identified
that this was a job andother people were doing it.
Something that I feltlike I wanted to do.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:53):
Ben, what about you?
Ben Chan (16:54):
Yeah, for me, I would classify myself as an accidental
pm I think I had my firstexposure of project management
in university as part of mycomputer engineering degree.
I probably fell asleepthrough half of the classes,
so it's ironic that I'm,now deeply into that area.
And it came along with the jobwhen I was doing consulting.
(17:16):
To better managedelivery, right?
Delivery of the value thatwe're expecting out of the
different engagements thatwe're having, and making
sure things get done on time.
And I'll tell you that a lot ofthe consulting companies, when
they go in there, sometimesthey don't necessarily have
that as top of mind, right?
If you have to extendthe contract or whatnot.
(17:38):
That might actuallybe good for them yeah.
Kelsey Alpaio (17:40):
This next question here is, we hear
a lot from our communityI didn't really plan this
path, I just ended up here.
So what advice do youhave for PMs who feel like
they've drifted in theircareers and kinda wanna
take back that wheel?
Ben, do you wanna startus off since you, you
accidentally became a PM.
Ben Chan (17:58):
Yeah, I think part of it is, these are gonna
sound a little bit fluffyanswers, but it's like you
have to really understandyourself of what do you want?
And the key question in askingyourself is, what do you want?
Do you want to be a pm?
And that also means that ifyou want to take control of
that wheel, you have to reallybe able to understand where
(18:18):
do you want to go and drive?
Then when I talk to peopleand they're leaving their
jobs, a lot of them arerunning away from their job.
They know what theydon't like, but what
are you running towards?
That's usually the harderanswer that people aren't
able to answer because they'rejust like I just don't want to
do what I'm doing right now.
I don't like where I'm at.
Great, so wheredo you want to go?
(18:39):
And that becomes a lot deeperintrospection to understand
again, what are your values?
What are the thingsthat you do value?
What do you want togo and strive towards?
And if you're missing thatcompass, and I'm guilty
of that as well, right?
I was bouncing aroundfrom different companies.
I was spending my time checkingoff the boxes of what I didn't
like, but not towards whatI wanted to strive towards.
(19:01):
And honestly, like I am over 40.
I probably didn't figure thisout until maybe five years
ago, so it's never too late.
You can always go and do it,but it is a long journey.
Kelsey Alpaio (19:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that kind of perspectiveof people running away
from their jobs and whatare you running towards?
I think that's such a.
I feel like it's a realizationprobably people will have
if they're job hunting orlooking for something new
is not realizing that's thereaction that they're having.
But yeah, thank you.
And I think thatdoes lead us into.
(19:34):
Kind of the second part today,which is I wanna get into
some of the ways that PMs cantake control of their career
paths and start to make thosedecisions for themselves.
So of course, one optionis shifting industries
or choosing to specializein a specific area.
Both of those things canopen doors, but they also
do come with trade-offs.
I think particularly rightnow, there's a lot of buzz
(19:56):
around things like technicalPMs, ai literate PMs.
So what do you think aboutthese paths and how do you
think about the trade-offsbetween specializing versus
staying more of a generalist?
Mackenzie, do you wanna getus started with this one?
Mackenzie Dys (20:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am a bit of a generalist.
I don't think I'vetruly specialized.
I hop around all the time.
For example, right now I'mrunning privacy programs, which.
Now I'm considered a privacyexpert within my client, which
is hilarious because I workwith the lawyers all the time.
I've been doing it abouta year and I've learned a
lot of really neat stuff.
But I'm also running thedeveloper experience team
(20:32):
now for their platform.
And I'm learning all aboutKubernetes costs and a bunch
of things I've never donebefore, but it's a team.
I can help them organize anddeliver and plan, and that
is my skillset as a generalcome in and help and deliver.
And that piece to me, I, thismakes me an absolute generalist.
(20:56):
I have worked acrossindustries, I've worked finance.
I'm working in tech right now.
I worked for a nonprofitagency where I did every,
and it was mostly websitessupporting healthcare,
a bunch of nonprofits.
So I've done a littlebit of everything.
So I am truly a generalistand I think there's aspects
to it that make me reallyhelpful, but there are a lot
(21:16):
of rules and especially jobdescriptions that you will
see that are very specificand looking for specialists.
I'm gonna hit on the e-commercebusinesses right now.
They are always lookingfor someone who's already
got five to 10 yearsof e-comm experience.
Doesn't matter if.
It's an entry level job, butthey want people who have only
ever worked in e-comm before.
And so there are limitationsto being a generalist, just
(21:40):
like there's opportunityand I think it's.
It's one of those things whereit's it's really nice 'cause
I have hopped industries.
It gives me a lot moreflexibility for which kind
of company I work for.
I work in consulting rightnow, so it makes it also quite
easy for us as consultantsto staff me to different
clients because I haven'tgone too deep in any vertical.
But at the same time, thereare certain industries that
(22:03):
aren't gonna want me there.
For example, healthcare,because I don't have that
healthcare background, theydon't wanna have to bring me
up to speed necessarily, andthat's not necessarily accurate.
But there is that fear ofhaving to catch you up that
if you can't prove that youare a fast learner or that
you can grasp and applythose general practices in
a very effective way, someof those hiring managers
(22:25):
may not see it right away.
And that's the trade off thatI think comes into play a lot.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:30):
When you say ecomm, do you mean on the
tech side or the content side?
Mackenzie Dysart (22:34):
I was thinking mostly the like.
Retail spaces that havetheir own internal teams.
So it could be either side,honestly, places like Lululemon
or Nicks or those kind ofcompanies where they have
a technical platform wherethey will have in-house
teams who are building theirwebsites, building their
backends, building all ofthat, payment processing and
(22:55):
all of those things in-house.
Also the side that'sdoing content management
that front as well.
But so either sideof the e-comm space.
Those companies who have theirin-house e-commerce solution
and are considering it that way.
That was what I had top of mind.
Kelsey Alpaio (23:12):
Elizabeth, how do you think about all of this?
You have experience inseveral different industries.
How are you thinking aboutspecialization right now?
Elizabeth Harrin (23:20):
I still consider myself to be a
generalist because likemackenzie, I've done business
change projects, dataprotection projects, technology
process improvement, allkinds of variety of things.
But I would struggle ifyou said, okay, off you go
build a car park or work inheavy engineering work in
space, work in oil and gas,that they are too different
(23:41):
from my area of generalism.
But I also think that it's,as you get more senior, you
have to be more generalist.
So if you want to startout specializing, great.
But if you want to become aprogram manager, or if you want
to lead a team, you've got toalso be able to demonstrate
that you've got a wide poolof interpersonal skills,
management skills leadership ata different level because you.
(24:01):
You are less in the detail,the more senior you get.
So that's worth bearing inmind if you are thinking about
your three-year plan or yourfive-year plan about where it
is that you want to end up.
Kelsey Alpaio (24:10):
Absolutely.
I do think the other trendwe're seeing is that despite
pay staying pretty flat, PMstoday are expected to wear more
hats than ever and really begeneralists and know everything.
Ben, can you chime in here?
What's your take on how thePM role is evolving and how
that should impact careerplanning moving forward?
Ben Chan (24:31):
Yeah, that's an interesting question because I
think sometimes it depends onwho's actually doing the hiring
and what their thoughts areof what the PM role is, right?
There's so many job postingsthat I see and I'm looking
at it and going, thatdoesn't look like a PM role.
They have you going downthe weeds and doing coding
and all these things, andI'm like, I'm not sure we're
talking about the same thing.
(24:53):
So some of it is understanding,what's their perception on it.
But I think as well is thatthe way the PM role is evolving
is that we have to be able towork with people a lot more.
As much as there arethe technical skills
of the frameworks andmethodologies we all have.
What they really want to beable to have is how are we
gonna get people to go anddeliver the value we want
(25:15):
right at the core of it.
And sure you have all thedifferent constraints around
it, but the more that we canthink about our position as
being less of a manager of doingthings, and more strategic as a
leader of how are we impactingthe larger picture, that will
start to go and shift howpeople will perceive you as
a PM and your capabilities tohopefully open the door to.
(25:39):
More larger contractsor different pay.
'cause I know just forpeople on the call here,
for me, I'm a contractor.
I'm a mercenary for hire to goand get things done if needed as
a project management consultant.
And I've been doing thatfor over 15 years now.
So it's always jumpingfrom client to client
in different industries.
And the more that you canshow value as well, at least
(26:00):
for me, from a generalistperspective of, I wanna
say cross pollination.
Of breaking some of thebiases and seeing how we can
apply it to really add value.
That's what I've noticed alot of clients appreciate.
Kelsey Alpaio (26:13):
Absolutely.
So just a little bit moredata from the salary guide.
One of the big findingsin the report was around
certifications and how theycan positively impact your pay.
For example, 78% ofrespondents to the survey
with a certification saidthey believe their cert has
positively impacted theircareers or salary in some way.
(26:33):
So I do wanna talk about thisas an option for folks who are
trying to rethink their careersor figure out what's next.
Of course getting certifiedtakes time, money, energy.
So how do you knowwhen it's worth it and
when it might not be?
How should you make thedecision to move forward
with a certification?
Mackenzie, do you wanna getus started with this one?
Mackenzie Dys (26:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think the first pieceis do your research to figure
out which certificationsapply to the jobs you're
looking for and the rolesand the companies in the
industry, because it does vary.
Depending on the industryyou're gonna look for.
I'm gonna usebanking for example.
Generally they're lookingfor the PMP, right?
That's a, it's a staple thingthat a lot of folks have been,
(27:14):
it's been around for a while.
If you're wanting to gointo like construction or
mechanical, that's PMP.
Again, a little bitmore structured.
If you start to go more onthe software agency side of
things, you might start tosee a few more roles that
are looking for CSM, anysort of scrum certification,
scrum alliance, any of those,product owner, that piece.
(27:34):
Finding out which onesyou're starting to see listed
in the job descriptionsis super duper helpful.
The next piece is, especiallyearly on in your career or
if you're trying to shiftto a new job type, it can be
helpful because it gets youover and past that initial
control f that all of our,those tools are doing to find
out whether or not you've gotthe letters in your resume.
(27:56):
I was a recruiter in myvery early career, and
that's how I found out aboutbeing a project manager.
I was like no, I wanna dothat, because I was very
bad at being a recruiter.
But one of the things I didlearn is how recruiters look
at resumes, and I would justtype in keywords from the job
description and acronyms tosee how many people, how many
resumes would show up anduse that to filter through.
(28:17):
So when I first startedlooking for my jobs
in project management.
Even though I didn't havemy PMP, I made sure to say
working towards my PMP on myresume, just so it wouldn't
remove me from the search.
So that's my littlecheat code there.
But I do think it really dependson if you've got the time
and if you've got the money.
'cause these aren'tcheap certifications.
(28:38):
So just figuring out whatyou're seeing from an
industry perspective inthe companies or areas that
you're trying to work with tofigure out which makes sense.
And then.
I'm not gonna say they'renot valuable, but they're
not things that you reallyput into practice a lot.
It's really just a thing tohelp you differentiate or align
yourself with what they'relooking for a little bit more.
(29:01):
This is less of an issue.
If you're at a place in yourcareer where your network
is around, you can reach outand you've got people who can
recommend you to other jobs.
For example, my currentrole I got, because I had a
friend who worked there andthey referred me in, so I at
least got the interview andgot past that first step.
So that's the piece where itdepends on where you are at
in your career and in yourcommunity and in your network,
(29:22):
what you're going to need tohelp you find that next role.
Kelsey Alpaio (29:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love the working towardsPMP piece of advice.
I also included that inthe salary guide 'cause I
was like, that's golden.
So I just haveone more question.
It's moving on from thecertifications, but it's
around ai and I think withAI it feels like we're
at a bit of a crossroads.
There's a lot of uncertaintyand I think it can be really
(29:47):
tough to make intentional careermoves when the future feels so
unclear like it does right now.
But it also isn't the firsttime the PM role has evolved.
I would love to hear from anyof you about if you've navigated
a major shift like this beforeand how did you approach
making career decisions inthe middle of all that change?
(30:07):
Elizabeth, what areyour thoughts on this?
Elizabeth Harrin (30:09):
If I show how old I am, but I was working
before, we all had virtual workand remote working with a thing,
and I remember doing a talkat an event in London, I think
it was about 2008, saying, weshould, we all, we should all
be using collaboration toolsand afterwards, couple of.
Old men, older men came over,was like, oh, I hadn't really
thought about this before.
(30:30):
Why would you do this?
Talk to me some more.
And if you roll thatforward, and now we all use
collaboration tools, don't you?
It's exactly the waythat work should be done.
So there's always been thesebig economic or software
driven or environmentallydriven or technology led
change that project managershave to adapt and work within.
We don't have crystal balls.
We don't know what it's gonnalook like in 10 years time, but
(30:51):
this is where we're starting tosee jobs like AI Project manager
maybe in 30 years time forthe career entrance of today.
It's just going to beembedded in the way we do it.
No one's gonna be anAI project manager.
You'll just be aproject manager.
But I would say don'tstress about it.
You've just gotta think, let'slook forward at the next 12
to 80 months or a roadmap ofcareer progression that you can
manage and see, and then makedecisions based on what's right
(31:14):
for you at that moment in time.
Otherwise, you'll tieyourself up in not thinking
about what's the world goingto be like in 15 years and
where am I going to be?
Really, none of us know whatthe future's going to bring
for any of us or our families.
So I would say it's great tohave long-term goals, but also
think about short-term horizons.
Kelsey Alpaio (31:32):
Yeah, I think that's really helpful.
Ben or Mackenzie, do youhave thoughts on this?
Ben Chan (31:36):
Yeah, AI is coming at us fast and hard, and it's one
of those shifts where it really.
I think puts a lot of doubtinto the people in the market of
what am I supposed to go and do?
If I look at, for me, and I'llprobably be dating myself as
well, is when they startedgoing and outsourcing a lot of
development out to offshore intothe India area, and I was like.
(31:56):
I am not a good enough developerto keep up with those guys.
What am I gonna do?
Because I went to school forthis for four years with another
additional year of internship.
I've put five years into this.
What am I doing now?
Because I don't thinkI'm gonna make it very
well as a developer.
And that kind of gotme into consulting.
And so I think part of itis don't be afraid to go
(32:17):
and experiment, to go andtry a few different things
here and there to run theseareas and understand what
is it that you like again?
What are you searching for?
What is it that you'relooking to get out of it so
that you can move forward?
And also at the same time, don'tbe afraid to try and use some
of these tools more effectively.
Now, I think the biggestpart is if you're pivoting
(32:38):
industries it's probablynot as hard as you think.
The hardest part is probablymaybe now getting into
project management, becauseso much of the AI right now
is taking up a lot of the,we'll say lower tasks, right?
That around, let's sayminute taking, right?
Or around some of the projectcoordination pieces, which
used to be the entry leveljob, but now a lot of the
(33:01):
tools have AI built in tobe able to go and do that.
So how are people going toget in to do Project Mansion
to understand how it isand gain that experience?
So that's a new factor that'sbeen introduced I think that
people need to consider,especially if they're coming
out of university or and goinginto the job force or just
getting into PM from scratch.
Kelsey Alpaio (33:22):
I think that entry level piece of this
is so interesting and it'sanother thing we do talk
about in the salary guide.
I believe Mackenzie has somegreat quotes about entry level
roles diminishing and what thatmeans for the future of pay.
So check that out as well.
So I do wanna get intoaudience questions.
We have about 15 minutes left.
How do you position yourselfas a valuable asset as a senior
(33:44):
generalist project manager?
Does it help to grabmore certifications?
Are there certain verticalsthat are more open to this?
Anybody have initialthoughts there?
Elizabeth Harrin (33:54):
I would say it probably doesn't help to grab
more certifications, becauseif you're going to be senior,
then the senior role is morepeople influencing all the
stuff that Ben was talking aboutearlier about, leading from
the front, the soft skills and.
Influencing of people, thestuff that AI can't do for us.
And that's what I thinkthey'll be looking for.
(34:14):
So there could be, onceyou've got your entry level
or a certification, andI think the salary guide
bore this out, didn't it?
That there was, once you've gotone certification, your salary
jumps it, it makes a differencefinancially and adding on more
doesn't necessarily equal moremoney or an employer to consider
you in a different night.
So maybe it's a considerationif you are changing industries,
(34:36):
because you might want to getone, as Mackenzie was saying,
that ties in with the fieldthat you want to move into.
But positioning, I like tothink I'm positioning myself
as a valuable asset as a seniormember of my team because
I'm the go-to person whoknows how the processes work,
who can do the governance,who's good at internal
networking, and building upa range of skills like that.
Mackenzie Dysart (34:55):
I was gonna say a similar thing if you're
trying to change industries.
Or prove that you can do abunch of different things, like
if you're trying to go hardon demonstrating the fact that
you are a generalist, gettinga few random certifications
more so out of interest thannecessarily like career driven.
So for example, likeI mentioned, I've been
working in privacy forthe last year and a half.
(35:16):
I actually find it prettyfascinating and I think it's
like being on the good sideof technology right now.
In a little bit of the,a weird space for ai.
We're understanding it.
How to better protect.
People's data is afascinating space for me.
So I've done our privacychampions training internally
and I'm considering doinga privacy designation
just out of interest, morethan a specialization.
(35:37):
And it's not something Iwould necessarily call it and
say, oh, hey, this is this iswhy I meet the requirements.
But in that space of your resumeor where you put like additional
interest or shared things,that's where you could be like,
oh, I'm interested in privacy.
I've done this designation, I'minterested in accessibility,
and I've done this designationor got this certification.
Or any other way thatyou can call it that
you're still learning.
(35:58):
I do think that's a piecethat it does benefit.
So if you're doing trainingsto develop your leadership
skills in any way, shape orform, make sure to identify
those as well as you'relooking into more senior roles.
That can only help you inproving that you're trying
to evolve, you're tryingto adapt, and you are
continuing to grow as well.
But overall, I don't thinkgetting your CPSO is gonna
change anything when you'relooking for a. Principal or
(36:20):
senior level manager role,it's gonna be more your people
and your soft skills for sure.
Kelsey Alpaio (36:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
We did get a somewhat similarquestion from a few folks
about switching to differentindustries altogether.
People are asking how doesone prepare for that and
better position themselvesin their experience to
potential employers.
There's also concerns around,the current job market and.
Employers seemingly havethe upper hand and are only
(36:47):
looking for candidates thathave very specific experience.
So how can we bethinking about this?
Ben, I don't know if you haveany thoughts on this one.
Ben Chan (36:55):
Yeah, so for me, I've been jumping around to different
industries all the time, right?
Financial industries,credit cards with credit
unions, FinTech, and thensoftware development, field
logistics, all these typesof different areas, oil and
gas, whatever it might be.
And I think part of it is ifyou want to be able to go and
show how you can move or pivotinto another industry, whatever
it might be, is see how canyou build upon the foundational
(37:19):
frameworks that you alreadyhave within your mind, right?
Of how is this similar tosomething you've already done?
Because from a projectperspective, a lot of it
is probably fairly similar.
How they do their businessis a little bit different.
So understand their businessresearch a little bit, and
then draw the parallels youcan of your experience and
how you can go and apply it.
I think there was a questionin there about biases and
(37:41):
things like that, right?
One, one client that I was ableto go in, win their trust on
was they were very accustomedto doing things in Agile, right?
Everything's inScrum and whatnot.
But when it came to theiruser experience management
and things, they had a lot ofdifficulty for it because, could
they be able to communicateevery two weeks on it?
(38:01):
And so I talked about how thewaterfall methodology could
be used to be able to help.
From a hybrid perspective,frame up how your sprints
are going so that when you'recommunicating to your users,
you're not stuck with that.
Change fatigue, right?
Think of your creativesolutions that you have of
different experiences, howyou can use it to go and add
(38:23):
value to what they're doing.
All in all businesses are thereto make money at the base of it.
If they're saying We needa oil and gas supply chain
PM expert, it's what do youwant me to be an expert in
oil and gas or supply chain?
All of a sudden you start tonarrow it down a whole lot,
but as they start to go andunderstand a little bit more of.
Your thinking process.
How do you think, howdo you make decisions?
(38:44):
How do you make good decisionsto drive value in the
organization and organizetheir teams in a good way,
as well as the stakeholdersmanaging the stakeholders.
I know I'm saying a lot here,but how can you condense that
into really good stories thatyou can go and tell to be able
to break some of that barriers?
Along with that, I wouldsay is go and network.
(39:05):
The AI pieces and the a TSsystems, they may block you out.
The more you can go andtalk to real people, make
those connections, you neverknow what kind of doors are
gonna be opening up for you.
Elizabeth Harrin (39:16):
And I think we need to remember
that we are the experts.
We're experts in projectmanagement, and we bring
our skills and skillset.
So in your example, Ben, theymust have in the industry,
hundreds of people withsupply chain experience
in oil and gas experience.
That's not.
Why they're hiring you.
They're hiring you because youhave the skills to be the glue
that joins everything together.
That creates a team thatwill deliver whether you
(39:37):
are, whether that's Scrum orany other kind of approach
that they want to use.
And if we can bring itback to what do we have
to offer employers, that'swhat we have to offer.
If they didn't have somebodywho could do that, then
they wouldn't be hiringin the first place.
So don't ever think thatbecause you don't have
particular experience,it's not worth applying.
You can always apply anyway.
And like Ben says,try and reframe the
(39:57):
experience you have got.
To match what it'sthey're looking for and
ask those questions.
Kelsey Alpaio (40:02):
Absolutely.
Love this.
We have another questionI'm sure a lot of folks
are, can relate to rightnow, unfortunately.
Do you have any advice fora PM who was made redundant,
struggled to find a new roleand secured one seven months
later accepting an 18%.
Six months into therole, it's going great.
But now thinking about themoney, should I stay and be
(40:25):
loyal or think about the moneyand look for another role?
And Courtney has the oppositeexperience where she said,
I like my current salary,but I don't like the work
I'm being assigned to.
So how can these two folksbe thinking about, is it
time to make the switch ordo I stay because I have
one of those pillars, Ihave purpose, or I have pay.
(40:46):
Mackenzie, do you havethoughts on this one?
Mackenzie Dysart (40:47):
Many thoughts I think at the forefront.
And the most important piece tothis is understanding whether or
not what you're looking for isavailable to you at that company
and in your current place for Ican't remember the name, whoever
was happy with the salaryor not happy with the work.
Does the work youeven like to do exist?
If it doesn't, that makes thedecision a little bit easier.
(41:09):
If there is work that you'reseeing, oh, you know what?
This other person onmy team keeps getting
assigned to these reallylike interesting projects.
I wanna do more of that.
I keep getting put on.
I'm gonna use my webagency experience.
I kept being put on retainersand I get, didn't get to
do any new site bills.
I was just doing the maintenancething over and over again.
How do I get assigned to that?
Then that's a conversationwith your manager.
That's a conversation.
Even with the person doingthat work, maybe you can reach
(41:31):
out and make that connection.
Say, Hey, like I've noticed youget to do this kind of work.
How'd you get into it?
How come you getassigned all the time?
Like how do I learn that sothat I can shadow and maybe
take on some of that work?
I'd like to get into thatspace for the salary piece.
It's an unfortunate reality ofthe state of the economy over
(41:51):
the last two, three years isthere were layoffs, there was a
lot of people looking for work.
It was the hiring managers,it was their time to
shine 'cause they could.
Negotiate and so many peoplewere looking for work, and
it's an unfortunate piecewhere now you have to kinda
look and say, okay is theremore salary available?
(42:13):
Hopefully you work for a companythat has salary bands published.
Not all of us do, unfortunately,but do the research.
Try and find out what the salarybands are, understand where you
fit within the organization,and then you'll understand
where you fit and if what you'relooking for is even feasible.
Then it's having that toughconversation of saying
to your manager, wheneverfinancials come around for
(42:35):
us, we do it once a year.
So it's usually easier to justtie it into that conversation.
If you're at a performancereview, they're saying,
you're doing great.
You've done all this great work.
We're so happy to have you.
How do we keep you here?
Or any sort ofyou're doing good.
We're so happy you're here.
And it's that's great.
I took a pay cut to be here.
Industry norm is here,is all this data.
I'd like to be brought closer tothe mean and whatever that is.
(42:58):
And I know I saw a questionin the chat somewhere about
what do you do when someone,when they just refute the data
'cause they don't agree with it.
Find more data if you can.
I usually try to come with atleast two data points before
for any negotiation becauseit's helpful to have more than
one, so you're not having atotally bias just, oh, I liked
what this data was showing me.
(43:19):
So I think it's important tofind, have your research, have
some numbers to back you up.
Especially if you're seeingstuff like, oh, the sellers
that are posted on Glassdoorfor this company that I work
for are higher in range,that's publicly available.
They should do somethingabout that regardless
because the optics are there.
So I think it's a lotabout doing the prep and
understanding what's possiblewithin your organization,
(43:40):
within your industry as well.
Some industries just don'tpay as much, but you might get
more value out of the work.
For example, if you're workingin nonprofits, generally
they don't pay as much, butyou're probably getting a
lot more of that purposeand you're enjoying the work
for a different perspective.
Kelsey Alpaio (43:55):
Yeah, I thought that question too,
around bringing data to,your hiring manager, whoever
it is, and them saying, eh,I don't know about that.
I agree.
Like of course we love oursalary guide, but bring as
many data points as possible.
Use PMI's salarycalculator, use Glassdoor.
Find the data that you canand use it to back you up.
(44:15):
There's another great questionhere about career break.
So this person said, I havebeen on a career break and
I'm looking to go back.
I'm thinking about scaledagile certifications and would
like to know what will helpme to go back into financial
services where I workedbefore my 18 month break.
So essentially, when ending acareer break, how can you think
(44:36):
about planning for your career?
Should you get certifications?
How can you brushup on your skills?
Elizabeth, do you have aperspective on career breaks?
Elizabeth Harrin (44:44):
Yes, I do.
'cause I think that from aparenting perspective, taking
a career break, we knowthat there's a motherhood
penalty in salaries.
So it's really important whenyou're going back that you're
asking for as much money as youpossibly can to catch that up.
If you feel that'sgoing to affect you.
In terms of what certificationswould help you become more
relevant and get back intothe industry more quickly?
(45:06):
I would echo what McKenziesaid earlier, which is look
at what job descriptionsare asking for and make sure
you can tick those boxesbefore you want to go back.
Check out a few jobs infinancial services or the
industry that it is that youwant to step back into and
see what they're asking for.
And if Scaled Agile is whereit's at, then put some time
and effort into getting thatso that you are meeting the
bare minimum requirementsbefore you're applying.
(45:27):
I also think there's plentyof other things that you can
do with your time or thatyou can use to help you feel
that you're fitting back in.
Even things like LinkedInlearning or listening to
podcasts, or being part ofthe DPM community, all these
things will help you stayup to date with trends so
you can talk knowledgeablyabout them at interview.
Kelsey Alpaio (45:45):
I love that advice.
So a couple people wereasking about hiring right now.
So Diana asked, how muchis it really who you know
versus what you know?
Especially when AI recruitingis so daunting, and Ryan
added, AI modules are bakedinto these ATS systems.
So who you know is moreimportant than ever now?
Ben, what's yourperspective on this?
Ben Chan (46:06):
Yes, I would agree with that.
AI has, you people aregenerating AI resumes
and then AI is evaluatingthe AI resume, right?
So what's the differingpoint on there?
And the differing piece isgonna be the relationships
that you can go and build.
For me, actually, like I haven'treally formally applied for a
job or a contract position typeof thing for over six years.
(46:32):
Maybe even longer, I can'teven remember because I just
work and talk with people tounderstand what their needs are.
And it bypassesall of those areas.
So as much as it's great togo out there and people want
to go and hire people theyknow, people that they trust,
and that's really what I thinkis the bottom line for it.
(46:53):
They go through the interviewprocess to understand
can they trust you?
Can they trust you to beable to go and get the
things we need to get done?
And if you can build thatup earlier, all the better.
Kelsey Alpaio (47:03):
Absolutely.
Thank you to our panelists forvolunteering their time today.
Panelists, this was so much fun.
It was so insightful.
So thank you for sharingyour expertise with us today.
My name is Kelsey Alpaio, I’m the Executive Editor
for The Digital Project Manager.
And today's session will focuson Designing Your PM Career
for More Pay and Purpose,and we'll be speaking with
some of the top voices andthought leaders in this space.
We have Ben Chan.
Ben is a project leadershipcoach, speaker, and facilitator
who's helped hundreds ofproject managers lead with
(00:27):
confidence and purpose.
With over 15 years ofexperience across industries
and multi-million dollarprojects, he brings a practical,
humorous approach to projectleadership that's earned him
a spot as one of LinkedIn'stop 3 PM creators in Canada.
He's also the hostof the podcast, the
Organized Chaos Café.
We also have Mackenzie Dysart,a PMP and CSM certified
(00:51):
Project Manager with overa decade of experience.
She's a bit of a unicornas she actually chose to
be a PM as a career path.
And she is currently a DeliveryPrincipal for Thoughtworks
leading one of the largestaccounts in the Americas.
And we have Elizabeth Harrin,an award-winning blogger,
author, and speaker with20 plus years of project
(01:13):
management experience acrossIT, finance and healthcare.
Her book Managing MultipleProjects was a 2023 Business
Book Awards finalist.
She speaks globally onstakeholder engagement,
careers, and productivity.
And you can learn more abouther work at rebelsguidetopm.com.
All of us, at some point inour careers have probably asked
(01:35):
ourselves some version of thequestion, "Am I on the right
path?" Maybe you've thoughtabout switching industries,
maybe you've considered gettingcertified, or maybe you've even
considered moving cities tohelp you earn a higher salary.
So I wanna get into somedata at the top here.
For example, according toour 2025 Salary Guide, PMs in
(01:56):
software and IT are making about$23,000 more than PMs in Media,
Marketing, and Advertising.
In the US, certified PMs areearning $13,000 more than
their uncertified peers.
And if you lived in New Jersey,for example, you would be among
the highest paid PMs in the US.
So some of those moves couldhelp you earn more, but that's
(02:19):
not an easy decision to maketo change your career path.
And with the role of projectmanagement evolving so
fast, it's getting harder tofigure out where to focus.
Do you specialize?
Do you stay a generalist?
Do you chase titles?
Or do you chasemeaning and purpose?
That's what we're divinginto today, how to design a
career that works for you,one that grows your paycheck,
(02:41):
but also your purpose.
Let's start with thebig picture here.
I threw out a lot of statsthere from our 2025 Salary
Guide that showed that PMsare earning significantly more
depending on their industry,certifications, and location.
I'd love to hear what ourpanelists have to think
about some of this data.
So what standsout to all of you?
Elizabeth, do youwanna start us off?
Elizabeth Harrin (03:02):
Yeah.
I look through the data andit's really interesting to
see the variability withinthe project profession.
Entry level jobs,there's very senior jobs.
There's space for everybody inlots of different industries.
But I think that makes it harderfor us to plan our careers
purposefully, potentially.
'cause you've got to takeinto effect so many different
categories like geography,what benefits come with the
(03:24):
job, the gender pay gap.
All of those things canreally influence your salary.
Kelsey Alpaio (03:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mackenzie, what weresome of your initial
reactions to this data?
Mackenzie Dysart (03:33):
You and I have had separate chats about
this and I went deep on it.
If you read the review,lots of quotes from me,
so you'll see my face.
I have feelings, but I thinkthe most interesting piece
is of course, gender pay gap.
I always find that reallyfascinating, but also to
me, it doesn't surpriseme that jersey's high paid
because Jersey very close toNew York, cheaper to live.
People are trying tofigure out how best to
(03:54):
optimize their money.
And I think given the stateof the economics globally,
we've all kind of seen a bitof a tightening of belts.
And so I'm not surprised,but I do know that there's
ways to make it work for you.
And I think the more we talkabout salaries, the more we
talk about these things, themore equality and equity there
will be, and we can just, theseconversations are important
(04:14):
for everybody's growth.
Kelsey Alpaio (04:15):
Yeah, definitely.
Go check out the guide.
Lots of great quotesfrom Mackenzie in there.
And Ben, what are your initialreactions to this data?
Ben Chan (04:23):
Yeah.
I think right now especially,we're seeing a lot of volatility
in the market and all sortsof different industries
that we've never expected.
Overall, I'm thinking,man, I got, we gotta
work on Canada's salary.
That's what I'm thinking.
But I think at the same timethere's the variability in terms
of the different industries iswe're seeing a rise of a lot
(04:43):
of different industries thatdidn't exist a long time ago.
We heard about howmeta poached, I think.
One of the AI engineersfor a huge sum of money.
I'm probably misquoting it, butI thought it was something in
the range of like $200 million.
And so there's all these otherrising industries, while we're
probably seeing some other onesstart to go and collapse, right?
(05:05):
Like in Canada, we've hadone of our biggest retailers
of Hudson Bay Company wherethey've collapsed and they
used to have a huge footprintin so many different areas.
And so these changingtimes reflect how I think.
Even though we might have anaverage, I'd be very interested
in seeing what is the highand the low points, what
is that range looking like?
And the numbers behindthose ones as well.
(05:26):
It's where statisticiansand things dive into it and
you can pull out some reallyinteresting conclusions.
Kelsey Alpaio (05:32):
Absolutely.
We are gonna talk alot about salary today.
As we unpack the report,but I do want to start by
acknowledging that it's notall just about the money, and
I get it that it can feel likea hard thing to say right now
given the economic climate,but the reality is that we
spend a huge part of our livesat work and it's fair to want
(05:54):
more than just a paycheck.
So how should we be thinkingabout balancing those two
pillars of pay and purpose and.
When you're facing a toughcareer decision, how do you
weigh one against the other?
Mackenzie, do you wanna getus started with this one?
Mackenzie Dysart (06:10):
Absolutely.
Balancing this purpose is sucha great word because it's not
just necessarily your valuesor are you just happy at work?
Is it making you feelfulfilled, and that is a
piece that makes the workingeasier and more enjoyable.
I am a big proponent of tryingto do work for companies that
(06:31):
you work for, if you can.
I had the opportunity to workfor an agency that was primarily
supporting nonprofits, and thatwas a really great space to be
for a while, but at some pointthe work wasn't as fulfilling,
so I needed to make a change.
Now I work with alot more for-profits.
My client is a for-profitorganization, but I like
their culture and what theystand for, and if you can find
places that align with what'simportant to you on top of
(06:53):
a salary, that makes sense.
That's really important.
So some of the areas that Ithink I look for when I am
looking at salaries consideringthe next role, is what is
the total compensation?
And I come at itfrom a Canadian lens.
So healthcare, I know that's abenefit for our folks in the US.
For us, it's more likewhat are those extended
benefits look like?
Am I gonna get additionalmassage, physio mental
(07:16):
health coverage?
My company right now hasa great extra bonus for
mental health coverage.
Is it enough?
It's never enough.
'cause mental healthcare is expensive.
But we have that extra bonus.
And then what arethe other amenities?
Is there a flexiblework schedule?
Do you have to be inthe office all the time?
If you are in an in-officeplace, is there still the
flexibility to work fromhome if you've got things
(07:37):
going on in your life becausethere are family, there are
other needs around your life.
And if you can have thatwork life balance in a sense
of, yes, I'm usually in theoffice Tuesday to Thursday,
but this week I've got aplumber coming by on Wednesday.
I need to work from home.
And that not being anissue and that just
being par for the course.
That's really important.
Looking at how the policiesthat are available.
(07:57):
Is parental leaveavailable to both genders?
Is it available to people whoare looking to adopt as well?
Like how does thatall factor in?
And anything else that'sreally important to you?
Are there days for volunteering?
Is there professionaldevelopment, budget
available to you?
All of these little piecesthat can actually make your
work life a little bit better.
(08:18):
We have some great ritualsat ThoughtWorks that pertain
to just building community.
It's called Gather.
So every once a month we have athing in our office in Toronto,
but we also allow it at hubsaround Canada so that people
can get together and just havea meal, share a drink, share a
moment together to build thatconnection so that you're.
You've got a little bit morepurpose and alignment with
(08:39):
the people that you're workingwith, and those pieces of
community and team buildingcan be really important.
I'm a really socialperson, so for me those
are really important.
But if you're someone whoreally doesn't care to meet
the people that you're workingwith, you just wanna get
your job done, do the thing.
Also totally realistic.
Finding a place that alignswith that is also really good.
So it's.
(08:59):
Doing the research andunderstanding all the different
aspects of what makes you happyin your day to day, and finding
a way for that to fit together.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:07):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love thinking about itfrom the benefits perspective
too, where those thingsadd up to how you feel at
work, even if you aren't asconnected to the work itself.
So that's a really interestingway to look at things.
And I had the same reactionas Crystal, which is.
Should I just move to Canada?
Like when I found out some ofyou have like massages that
(09:29):
are covered in your healthinsurance, I was like, maybe
I should move to Canada.
But yeah.
Elizabeth, how would youdescribe balancing that
pay and purpose aspectwhen career planning?
Elizabeth Harrin (09:41):
I think it's easier to get the balance when
you've already got the base paythat supports the cost of living
and the lifestyle that you want.
It's better if you can findan industry that supports
your values as well.
So I moved from financialservices to healthcare.
I didn't really know what I wasgetting into when I moved into
healthcare, but in financialservices, in insurance, we sell
(10:04):
products and you make moneywhen people don't use them.
And in healthcare peopleon their worst days.
And projects that I do asa project manager help our
clinical staff deliver thebest possible patient care.
So there's a very differenttouchpoint with the end
result of the projectsthat we're working on.
And I felt so much morefulfilled in healthcare.
(10:25):
I didn't take the job inhealthcare 'cause I thought
it aligned to my values, butI ended up there and actually
it was a really good move forme 'cause it really felt like
it was a much better fit.
And the job has purpose,but it's very easy to
feel worthy and say it'sall great about values.
If you're being paid enoughto feed your kids and
pay for childcare and dothat, so that does have
to be a bit of a balance.
(10:46):
Working out how muchdo you need to live?
What's your basic, whatdo you want to be paying
into your pension?
What do you need for yourhealthcare if you don't get
massages included, but you wantto have one every month, and
then you can start to think,okay, so am I going into an
industry where it's goingto be more highly paid and
it's still going to meet mypersonal goals and my values?
Kelsey Alpaio (11:05):
Absolutely.
And Ben, I was wondering if youcould chime in with this next
question, which is, are there,tools, exercises, frameworks
that you've used or that youuse with your clients that
can help PMs clarify, whatthey want from their career?
What are the thingsthat matter to them?
How do you make thesetough decisions?
What are yourthoughts around that?
Ben Chan (11:25):
Sure.
No, that's a great question.
'cause I think.
When we try and processit in our head, it
can be very difficult.
We have all these numbers andthings, and you're like maybe
this one's better than this one.
And so one tool I love beingable to use is something
called a decision wheel, right?
And so pay and purpose can besome parts of that decision,
wheel or pie, whatever youwant to go and call it, right?
(11:47):
But then it's lookingand understanding what
are all the other factorsthat are contributing to
you making a decision.
So whether this is about yourcareer or anything else, you
can use this, but specificallyfor a career decision, it
could be, again, the piecesof remote work of benefits
and all of those start to addinto pieces of the pie, right?
Of pay and purpose andadding those ones on.
(12:09):
And then you have to go throughand rank them and say, which
ones are most important to you?
Is it pay?
Is it culture?
Is it perhaps the location?
How far it is from your house?
All of those things have.
Different impacts on you,and you rank all of them.
Now as you come forwardwith other options that
come up, say there's acareer decision to make.
(12:30):
Do I leave to this other oneor do I stay at this one?
Then you go ahead and rank them,go through those ones, and it
then becomes just a simple,almost multiplication exercise
to go and say out 10 pay isa 10, and this one ranked as
a three, so it's 30 points.
And then you can actually seehow each of those different
pieces of the pie, you canactually even color it in.
(12:51):
And see how it all looks.
So you can do almost likea graphical view as to
what your decision lookslike, and you'd be actually
surprised of how sometimesyou might overran something
or maybe you actually findyour priorities are different
than what you thought it was.
Once you see those decisionscoming out, and it's always
good to make sure as wellto consider your status quo
of what if I just stayedwhere I am right now?
(13:12):
Maybe that's the bestdecision as well.
You don't have tomake a decision.
So the decision wheel toolis something that I like to
go and use to help betterdefine and quantify what some
of these intangibles are.
Kelsey Alpaio (13:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mackenzie or Elizabeth, doyou have any other like frames
or tools that you've usedin the past to help you make
these sorts of decisions?
Mackenzie Dysart (13:33):
I went through this exercise similar
to what Ben mentioned, butactually I went through
it with my therapist.
And it can be done.
This exercise, it's likea values waiting situation
where it was just cards ofwhat values mattered the
most to me, and some of themwould be like honesty versus
transparency or honesty versussomeone showing up on time.
(13:54):
It was an exercise that we wouldgo through the cards and it was,
which one's the most important?
And I had to pick one everysingle time, and it narrowed you
down to all of a sudden I hadthis top 10 list of core values
that were really importantto me in the workplace.
And that allowed me to sitand understand why I was
feeling the way that I wasfeeling at a job in my past.
And it had a huge aspect to dowith the fact that there was.
(14:16):
Misalignment with my moralvalues and what was happening.
And there's a term thatkind of goes around in the
industry called moral injury.
It's a little bit differentthan burnout in the sense of
it's when you and your companyaren't jiving, they aren't
matching for whatever reason.
And that's where I was ina place of, but it took me,
going through this exerciseto truly understand honesty
(14:36):
is not what isn't to me asimportant as transparency.
Just being upfront that,Hey, I can't tell you
this, but this is going on.
Or yes, I understand.
But X and just giving thatextra information, that context
is really important to meas a person, as an employee.
So that allowed me tounderstand, you know what,
this is time where status quodoesn't work for me anymore.
(14:57):
I need to start looking forthe next thing because this
is just, I can't get out ofthis in this current role
because of the misalignmentand values, and I think.
That helped me reallymake decisions.
'cause otherwise I'm very badat just giving everything the
same or like equally high orequally low measurements on some
of those other scaling things.
So this really forceddecisions and I found it
exceptionally helpful.
(15:18):
I'm sure there are waysyou can do this online.
There's probably online toolsthat I don't know about,
but highly recommend forall aspects of your life.
Elizabeth Harrin (15:25):
We did something similar at work
quite a few years ago now, andit was like a questionnaire.
You tick various differentoptions and then it gave
you your motivating factorsand working in healthcare,
we went around the roomand everyone was like, oh,
I'm motivated by caring.
I'm motivated bydoing a great job.
And mine was, I'mmotivated by money.
I think if you, whatever you do,whatever exercise you do, you
(15:47):
have to think is probably just acontextually driven position at
any one moment in time, becauseI reckon if I did that now.
Probably would havedifferent values.
I'm at a different placein my life and maybe my
motivating factors would bemore like a flexible working
and being able to be athome with the kids and stuff
like that in a way that theyweren't in my early thirties.
So I think just bear in mindthat if you are going to use
(16:09):
these kind of tools that theydon't define you in just kind of
one position, you could probablywill end up finding that while
your core values that you'dlike to think will stay the
same, maybe there'll be a littlebit of movement as you grow
into your career in some way.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:23):
Absolutely.
I think that's a great point.
The next question I have here isfor accidental PMs, so I forget
Mackenzie, I know we said youintentionally chose the PM path.
Elizabeth and Ben, would youconsider yourself accidental
PMs or is this the career paththat you chose for yourself?
Elizabeth Harrin (16:38):
This is the career path that
I chose for myself.
Admittedly, being at university,I didn't even know that
project management was a job.
As soon as I got into theworkplace, quickly identified
that this was a job andother people were doing it.
Something that I feltlike I wanted to do.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:53):
Ben, what about you?
Ben Chan (16:54):
Yeah, for me, I would classify myself as an accidental
pm I think I had my firstexposure of project management
in university as part of mycomputer engineering degree.
I probably fell asleepthrough half of the classes,
so it's ironic that I'm,now deeply into that area.
And it came along with the jobwhen I was doing consulting.
(17:16):
To better managedelivery, right?
Delivery of the value thatwe're expecting out of the
different engagements thatwe're having, and making
sure things get done on time.
And I'll tell you that a lot ofthe consulting companies, when
they go in there, sometimesthey don't necessarily have
that as top of mind, right?
If you have to extendthe contract or whatnot.
(17:38):
That might actuallybe good for them yeah.
Kelsey Alpaio (17:40):
This next question here is, we hear
a lot from our communityI didn't really plan this
path, I just ended up here.
So what advice do youhave for PMs who feel like
they've drifted in theircareers and kinda wanna
take back that wheel?
Ben, do you wanna startus off since you, you
accidentally became a PM.
Ben Chan (17:58):
Yeah, I think part of it is, these are gonna
sound a little bit fluffyanswers, but it's like you
have to really understandyourself of what do you want?
And the key question in askingyourself is, what do you want?
Do you want to be a pm?
And that also means that ifyou want to take control of
that wheel, you have to reallybe able to understand where
(18:18):
do you want to go and drive?
Then when I talk to peopleand they're leaving their
jobs, a lot of them arerunning away from their job.
They know what theydon't like, but what
are you running towards?
That's usually the harderanswer that people aren't
able to answer because they'rejust like I just don't want to
do what I'm doing right now.
I don't like where I'm at.
Great, so wheredo you want to go?
(18:39):
And that becomes a lot deeperintrospection to understand
again, what are your values?
What are the thingsthat you do value?
What do you want togo and strive towards?
And if you're missing thatcompass, and I'm guilty
of that as well, right?
I was bouncing aroundfrom different companies.
I was spending my time checkingoff the boxes of what I didn't
like, but not towards whatI wanted to strive towards.
(19:01):
And honestly, like I am over 40.
I probably didn't figure thisout until maybe five years
ago, so it's never too late.
You can always go and do it,but it is a long journey.
Kelsey Alpaio (19:13):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that kind of perspectiveof people running away
from their jobs and whatare you running towards?
I think that's such a.
I feel like it's a realizationprobably people will have
if they're job hunting orlooking for something new
is not realizing that's thereaction that they're having.
But yeah, thank you.
And I think thatdoes lead us into.
(19:34):
Kind of the second part today,which is I wanna get into
some of the ways that PMs cantake control of their career
paths and start to make thosedecisions for themselves.
So of course, one optionis shifting industries
or choosing to specializein a specific area.
Both of those things canopen doors, but they also
do come with trade-offs.
I think particularly rightnow, there's a lot of buzz
(19:56):
around things like technicalPMs, ai literate PMs.
So what do you think aboutthese paths and how do you
think about the trade-offsbetween specializing versus
staying more of a generalist?
Mackenzie, do you wanna getus started with this one?
Mackenzie Dys (20:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
I am a bit of a generalist.
I don't think I'vetruly specialized.
I hop around all the time.
For example, right now I'mrunning privacy programs, which.
Now I'm considered a privacyexpert within my client, which
is hilarious because I workwith the lawyers all the time.
I've been doing it abouta year and I've learned a
lot of really neat stuff.
But I'm also running thedeveloper experience team
(20:32):
now for their platform.
And I'm learning all aboutKubernetes costs and a bunch
of things I've never donebefore, but it's a team.
I can help them organize anddeliver and plan, and that
is my skillset as a generalcome in and help and deliver.
And that piece to me, I, thismakes me an absolute generalist.
(20:56):
I have worked acrossindustries, I've worked finance.
I'm working in tech right now.
I worked for a nonprofitagency where I did every,
and it was mostly websitessupporting healthcare,
a bunch of nonprofits.
So I've done a littlebit of everything.
So I am truly a generalistand I think there's aspects
to it that make me reallyhelpful, but there are a lot
(21:16):
of rules and especially jobdescriptions that you will
see that are very specificand looking for specialists.
I'm gonna hit on the e-commercebusinesses right now.
They are always lookingfor someone who's already
got five to 10 yearsof e-comm experience.
Doesn't matter if.
It's an entry level job, butthey want people who have only
ever worked in e-comm before.
And so there are limitationsto being a generalist, just
(21:40):
like there's opportunityand I think it's.
It's one of those things whereit's it's really nice 'cause
I have hopped industries.
It gives me a lot moreflexibility for which kind
of company I work for.
I work in consulting rightnow, so it makes it also quite
easy for us as consultantsto staff me to different
clients because I haven'tgone too deep in any vertical.
But at the same time, thereare certain industries that
(22:03):
aren't gonna want me there.
For example, healthcare,because I don't have that
healthcare background, theydon't wanna have to bring me
up to speed necessarily, andthat's not necessarily accurate.
But there is that fear ofhaving to catch you up that
if you can't prove that youare a fast learner or that
you can grasp and applythose general practices in
a very effective way, someof those hiring managers
(22:25):
may not see it right away.
And that's the trade off thatI think comes into play a lot.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:30):
When you say ecomm, do you mean on the
tech side or the content side?
Mackenzie Dysart (22:34):
I was thinking mostly the like.
Retail spaces that havetheir own internal teams.
So it could be either side,honestly, places like Lululemon
or Nicks or those kind ofcompanies where they have
a technical platform wherethey will have in-house
teams who are building theirwebsites, building their
backends, building all ofthat, payment processing and
(22:55):
all of those things in-house.
Also the side that'sdoing content management
that front as well.
But so either sideof the e-comm space.
Those companies who have theirin-house e-commerce solution
and are considering it that way.
That was what I had top of mind.
Kelsey Alpaio (23:12):
Elizabeth, how do you think about all of this?
You have experience inseveral different industries.
How are you thinking aboutspecialization right now?
Elizabeth Harrin (23:20):
I still consider myself to be a
generalist because likemackenzie, I've done business
change projects, dataprotection projects, technology
process improvement, allkinds of variety of things.
But I would struggle ifyou said, okay, off you go
build a car park or work inheavy engineering work in
space, work in oil and gas,that they are too different
(23:41):
from my area of generalism.
But I also think that it's,as you get more senior, you
have to be more generalist.
So if you want to startout specializing, great.
But if you want to become aprogram manager, or if you want
to lead a team, you've got toalso be able to demonstrate
that you've got a wide poolof interpersonal skills,
management skills leadership ata different level because you.
(24:01):
You are less in the detail,the more senior you get.
So that's worth bearing inmind if you are thinking about
your three-year plan or yourfive-year plan about where it
is that you want to end up.
Kelsey Alpaio (24:10):
Absolutely.
I do think the other trendwe're seeing is that despite
pay staying pretty flat, PMstoday are expected to wear more
hats than ever and really begeneralists and know everything.
Ben, can you chime in here?
What's your take on how thePM role is evolving and how
that should impact careerplanning moving forward?
Ben Chan (24:31):
Yeah, that's an interesting question because I
think sometimes it depends onwho's actually doing the hiring
and what their thoughts areof what the PM role is, right?
There's so many job postingsthat I see and I'm looking
at it and going, thatdoesn't look like a PM role.
They have you going downthe weeds and doing coding
and all these things, andI'm like, I'm not sure we're
talking about the same thing.
(24:53):
So some of it is understanding,what's their perception on it.
But I think as well is thatthe way the PM role is evolving
is that we have to be able towork with people a lot more.
As much as there arethe technical skills
of the frameworks andmethodologies we all have.
What they really want to beable to have is how are we
gonna get people to go anddeliver the value we want
(25:15):
right at the core of it.
And sure you have all thedifferent constraints around
it, but the more that we canthink about our position as
being less of a manager of doingthings, and more strategic as a
leader of how are we impactingthe larger picture, that will
start to go and shift howpeople will perceive you as
a PM and your capabilities tohopefully open the door to.
(25:39):
More larger contractsor different pay.
'cause I know just forpeople on the call here,
for me, I'm a contractor.
I'm a mercenary for hire to goand get things done if needed as
a project management consultant.
And I've been doing thatfor over 15 years now.
So it's always jumpingfrom client to client
in different industries.
And the more that you canshow value as well, at least
(26:00):
for me, from a generalistperspective of, I wanna
say cross pollination.
Of breaking some of thebiases and seeing how we can
apply it to really add value.
That's what I've noticed alot of clients appreciate.
Kelsey Alpaio (26:13):
Absolutely.
So just a little bit moredata from the salary guide.
One of the big findingsin the report was around
certifications and how theycan positively impact your pay.
For example, 78% ofrespondents to the survey
with a certification saidthey believe their cert has
positively impacted theircareers or salary in some way.
(26:33):
So I do wanna talk about thisas an option for folks who are
trying to rethink their careersor figure out what's next.
Of course getting certifiedtakes time, money, energy.
So how do you knowwhen it's worth it and
when it might not be?
How should you make thedecision to move forward
with a certification?
Mackenzie, do you wanna getus started with this one?
Mackenzie Dys (26:53):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I think the first pieceis do your research to figure
out which certificationsapply to the jobs you're
looking for and the rolesand the companies in the
industry, because it does vary.
Depending on the industryyou're gonna look for.
I'm gonna usebanking for example.
Generally they're lookingfor the PMP, right?
That's a, it's a staple thingthat a lot of folks have been,
(27:14):
it's been around for a while.
If you're wanting to gointo like construction or
mechanical, that's PMP.
Again, a little bitmore structured.
If you start to go more onthe software agency side of
things, you might start tosee a few more roles that
are looking for CSM, anysort of scrum certification,
scrum alliance, any of those,product owner, that piece.
(27:34):
Finding out which onesyou're starting to see listed
in the job descriptionsis super duper helpful.
The next piece is, especiallyearly on in your career or
if you're trying to shiftto a new job type, it can be
helpful because it gets youover and past that initial
control f that all of our,those tools are doing to find
out whether or not you've gotthe letters in your resume.
(27:56):
I was a recruiter in myvery early career, and
that's how I found out aboutbeing a project manager.
I was like no, I wanna dothat, because I was very
bad at being a recruiter.
But one of the things I didlearn is how recruiters look
at resumes, and I would justtype in keywords from the job
description and acronyms tosee how many people, how many
resumes would show up anduse that to filter through.
(28:17):
So when I first startedlooking for my jobs
in project management.
Even though I didn't havemy PMP, I made sure to say
working towards my PMP on myresume, just so it wouldn't
remove me from the search.
So that's my littlecheat code there.
But I do think it really dependson if you've got the time
and if you've got the money.
'cause these aren'tcheap certifications.
(28:38):
So just figuring out whatyou're seeing from an
industry perspective inthe companies or areas that
you're trying to work with tofigure out which makes sense.
And then.
I'm not gonna say they'renot valuable, but they're
not things that you reallyput into practice a lot.
It's really just a thing tohelp you differentiate or align
yourself with what they'relooking for a little bit more.
(29:01):
This is less of an issue.
If you're at a place in yourcareer where your network
is around, you can reach outand you've got people who can
recommend you to other jobs.
For example, my currentrole I got, because I had a
friend who worked there andthey referred me in, so I at
least got the interview andgot past that first step.
So that's the piece where itdepends on where you are at
in your career and in yourcommunity and in your network,
(29:22):
what you're going to need tohelp you find that next role.
Kelsey Alpaio (29:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love the working towardsPMP piece of advice.
I also included that inthe salary guide 'cause I
was like, that's golden.
So I just haveone more question.
It's moving on from thecertifications, but it's
around ai and I think withAI it feels like we're
at a bit of a crossroads.
There's a lot of uncertaintyand I think it can be really
(29:47):
tough to make intentional careermoves when the future feels so
unclear like it does right now.
But it also isn't the firsttime the PM role has evolved.
I would love to hear from anyof you about if you've navigated
a major shift like this beforeand how did you approach
making career decisions inthe middle of all that change?
(30:07):
Elizabeth, what areyour thoughts on this?
Elizabeth Harrin (30:09):
If I show how old I am, but I was working
before, we all had virtual workand remote working with a thing,
and I remember doing a talkat an event in London, I think
it was about 2008, saying, weshould, we all, we should all
be using collaboration toolsand afterwards, couple of.
Old men, older men came over,was like, oh, I hadn't really
thought about this before.
(30:30):
Why would you do this?
Talk to me some more.
And if you roll thatforward, and now we all use
collaboration tools, don't you?
It's exactly the waythat work should be done.
So there's always been thesebig economic or software
driven or environmentallydriven or technology led
change that project managershave to adapt and work within.
We don't have crystal balls.
We don't know what it's gonnalook like in 10 years time, but
(30:51):
this is where we're starting tosee jobs like AI Project manager
maybe in 30 years time forthe career entrance of today.
It's just going to beembedded in the way we do it.
No one's gonna be anAI project manager.
You'll just be aproject manager.
But I would say don'tstress about it.
You've just gotta think, let'slook forward at the next 12
to 80 months or a roadmap ofcareer progression that you can
manage and see, and then makedecisions based on what's right
(31:14):
for you at that moment in time.
Otherwise, you'll tieyourself up in not thinking
about what's the world goingto be like in 15 years and
where am I going to be?
Really, none of us know whatthe future's going to bring
for any of us or our families.
So I would say it's great tohave long-term goals, but also
think about short-term horizons.
Kelsey Alpaio (31:32):
Yeah, I think that's really helpful.
Ben or Mackenzie, do youhave thoughts on this?
Ben Chan (31:36):
Yeah, AI is coming at us fast and hard, and it's one
of those shifts where it really.
I think puts a lot of doubtinto the people in the market of
what am I supposed to go and do?
If I look at, for me, and I'llprobably be dating myself as
well, is when they startedgoing and outsourcing a lot of
development out to offshore intothe India area, and I was like.
(31:56):
I am not a good enough developerto keep up with those guys.
What am I gonna do?
Because I went to school forthis for four years with another
additional year of internship.
I've put five years into this.
What am I doing now?
Because I don't thinkI'm gonna make it very
well as a developer.
And that kind of gotme into consulting.
And so I think part of itis don't be afraid to go
(32:17):
and experiment, to go andtry a few different things
here and there to run theseareas and understand what
is it that you like again?
What are you searching for?
What is it that you'relooking to get out of it so
that you can move forward?
And also at the same time, don'tbe afraid to try and use some
of these tools more effectively.
Now, I think the biggestpart is if you're pivoting
(32:38):
industries it's probablynot as hard as you think.
The hardest part is probablymaybe now getting into
project management, becauseso much of the AI right now
is taking up a lot of the,we'll say lower tasks, right?
That around, let's sayminute taking, right?
Or around some of the projectcoordination pieces, which
used to be the entry leveljob, but now a lot of the
(33:01):
tools have AI built in tobe able to go and do that.
So how are people going toget in to do Project Mansion
to understand how it isand gain that experience?
So that's a new factor that'sbeen introduced I think that
people need to consider,especially if they're coming
out of university or and goinginto the job force or just
getting into PM from scratch.
Kelsey Alpaio (33:22):
I think that entry level piece of this
is so interesting and it'sanother thing we do talk
about in the salary guide.
I believe Mackenzie has somegreat quotes about entry level
roles diminishing and what thatmeans for the future of pay.
So check that out as well.
So I do wanna get intoaudience questions.
We have about 15 minutes left.
How do you position yourselfas a valuable asset as a senior
(33:44):
generalist project manager?
Does it help to grabmore certifications?
Are there certain verticalsthat are more open to this?
Anybody have initialthoughts there?
Elizabeth Harrin (33:54):
I would say it probably doesn't help to grab
more certifications, becauseif you're going to be senior,
then the senior role is morepeople influencing all the
stuff that Ben was talking aboutearlier about, leading from
the front, the soft skills and.
Influencing of people, thestuff that AI can't do for us.
And that's what I thinkthey'll be looking for.
(34:14):
So there could be, onceyou've got your entry level
or a certification, andI think the salary guide
bore this out, didn't it?
That there was, once you've gotone certification, your salary
jumps it, it makes a differencefinancially and adding on more
doesn't necessarily equal moremoney or an employer to consider
you in a different night.
So maybe it's a considerationif you are changing industries,
(34:36):
because you might want to getone, as Mackenzie was saying,
that ties in with the fieldthat you want to move into.
But positioning, I like tothink I'm positioning myself
as a valuable asset as a seniormember of my team because
I'm the go-to person whoknows how the processes work,
who can do the governance,who's good at internal
networking, and building upa range of skills like that.
Mackenzie Dysart (34:55):
I was gonna say a similar thing if you're
trying to change industries.
Or prove that you can do abunch of different things, like
if you're trying to go hardon demonstrating the fact that
you are a generalist, gettinga few random certifications
more so out of interest thannecessarily like career driven.
So for example, likeI mentioned, I've been
working in privacy forthe last year and a half.
(35:16):
I actually find it prettyfascinating and I think it's
like being on the good sideof technology right now.
In a little bit of the,a weird space for ai.
We're understanding it.
How to better protect.
People's data is afascinating space for me.
So I've done our privacychampions training internally
and I'm considering doinga privacy designation
just out of interest, morethan a specialization.
(35:37):
And it's not something Iwould necessarily call it and
say, oh, hey, this is this iswhy I meet the requirements.
But in that space of your resumeor where you put like additional
interest or shared things,that's where you could be like,
oh, I'm interested in privacy.
I've done this designation, I'minterested in accessibility,
and I've done this designationor got this certification.
Or any other way thatyou can call it that
you're still learning.
(35:58):
I do think that's a piecethat it does benefit.
So if you're doing trainingsto develop your leadership
skills in any way, shape orform, make sure to identify
those as well as you'relooking into more senior roles.
That can only help you inproving that you're trying
to evolve, you're tryingto adapt, and you are
continuing to grow as well.
But overall, I don't thinkgetting your CPSO is gonna
change anything when you'relooking for a. Principal or
(36:20):
senior level manager role,it's gonna be more your people
and your soft skills for sure.
Kelsey Alpaio (36:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
We did get a somewhat similarquestion from a few folks
about switching to differentindustries altogether.
People are asking how doesone prepare for that and
better position themselvesin their experience to
potential employers.
There's also concerns around,the current job market and.
Employers seemingly havethe upper hand and are only
(36:47):
looking for candidates thathave very specific experience.
So how can we bethinking about this?
Ben, I don't know if you haveany thoughts on this one.
Ben Chan (36:55):
Yeah, so for me, I've been jumping around to different
industries all the time, right?
Financial industries,credit cards with credit
unions, FinTech, and thensoftware development, field
logistics, all these typesof different areas, oil and
gas, whatever it might be.
And I think part of it is ifyou want to be able to go and
show how you can move or pivotinto another industry, whatever
it might be, is see how canyou build upon the foundational
(37:19):
frameworks that you alreadyhave within your mind, right?
Of how is this similar tosomething you've already done?
Because from a projectperspective, a lot of it
is probably fairly similar.
How they do their businessis a little bit different.
So understand their businessresearch a little bit, and
then draw the parallels youcan of your experience and
how you can go and apply it.
I think there was a questionin there about biases and
(37:41):
things like that, right?
One, one client that I was ableto go in, win their trust on
was they were very accustomedto doing things in Agile, right?
Everything's inScrum and whatnot.
But when it came to theiruser experience management
and things, they had a lot ofdifficulty for it because, could
they be able to communicateevery two weeks on it?
(38:01):
And so I talked about how thewaterfall methodology could
be used to be able to help.
From a hybrid perspective,frame up how your sprints
are going so that when you'recommunicating to your users,
you're not stuck with that.
Change fatigue, right?
Think of your creativesolutions that you have of
different experiences, howyou can use it to go and add
(38:23):
value to what they're doing.
All in all businesses are thereto make money at the base of it.
If they're saying We needa oil and gas supply chain
PM expert, it's what do youwant me to be an expert in
oil and gas or supply chain?
All of a sudden you start tonarrow it down a whole lot,
but as they start to go andunderstand a little bit more of.
Your thinking process.
How do you think, howdo you make decisions?
(38:44):
How do you make good decisionsto drive value in the
organization and organizetheir teams in a good way,
as well as the stakeholdersmanaging the stakeholders.
I know I'm saying a lot here,but how can you condense that
into really good stories thatyou can go and tell to be able
to break some of that barriers?
Along with that, I wouldsay is go and network.
(39:05):
The AI pieces and the a TSsystems, they may block you out.
The more you can go andtalk to real people, make
those connections, you neverknow what kind of doors are
gonna be opening up for you.
Elizabeth Harrin (39:16):
And I think we need to remember
that we are the experts.
We're experts in projectmanagement, and we bring
our skills and skillset.
So in your example, Ben, theymust have in the industry,
hundreds of people withsupply chain experience
in oil and gas experience.
That's not.
Why they're hiring you.
They're hiring you because youhave the skills to be the glue
that joins everything together.
That creates a team thatwill deliver whether you
(39:37):
are, whether that's Scrum orany other kind of approach
that they want to use.
And if we can bring itback to what do we have
to offer employers, that'swhat we have to offer.
If they didn't have somebodywho could do that, then
they wouldn't be hiringin the first place.
So don't ever think thatbecause you don't have
particular experience,it's not worth applying.
You can always apply anyway.
And like Ben says,try and reframe the
(39:57):
experience you have got.
To match what it'sthey're looking for and
ask those questions.
Kelsey Alpaio (40:02):
Absolutely.
Love this.
We have another questionI'm sure a lot of folks
are, can relate to rightnow, unfortunately.
Do you have any advice fora PM who was made redundant,
struggled to find a new roleand secured one seven months
later accepting an 18%.
Six months into therole, it's going great.
But now thinking about themoney, should I stay and be
(40:25):
loyal or think about the moneyand look for another role?
And Courtney has the oppositeexperience where she said,
I like my current salary,but I don't like the work
I'm being assigned to.
So how can these two folksbe thinking about, is it
time to make the switch ordo I stay because I have
one of those pillars, Ihave purpose, or I have pay.
(40:46):
Mackenzie, do you havethoughts on this one?
Mackenzie Dysart (40:47):
Many thoughts I think at the forefront.
And the most important piece tothis is understanding whether or
not what you're looking for isavailable to you at that company
and in your current place for Ican't remember the name, whoever
was happy with the salaryor not happy with the work.
Does the work youeven like to do exist?
If it doesn't, that makes thedecision a little bit easier.
(41:09):
If there is work that you'reseeing, oh, you know what?
This other person onmy team keeps getting
assigned to these reallylike interesting projects.
I wanna do more of that.
I keep getting put on.
I'm gonna use my webagency experience.
I kept being put on retainersand I get, didn't get to
do any new site bills.
I was just doing the maintenancething over and over again.
How do I get assigned to that?
Then that's a conversationwith your manager.
That's a conversation.
Even with the person doingthat work, maybe you can reach
(41:31):
out and make that connection.
Say, Hey, like I've noticed youget to do this kind of work.
How'd you get into it?
How come you getassigned all the time?
Like how do I learn that sothat I can shadow and maybe
take on some of that work?
I'd like to get into thatspace for the salary piece.
It's an unfortunate reality ofthe state of the economy over
(41:51):
the last two, three years isthere were layoffs, there was a
lot of people looking for work.
It was the hiring managers,it was their time to
shine 'cause they could.
Negotiate and so many peoplewere looking for work, and
it's an unfortunate piecewhere now you have to kinda
look and say, okay is theremore salary available?
(42:13):
Hopefully you work for a companythat has salary bands published.
Not all of us do, unfortunately,but do the research.
Try and find out what the salarybands are, understand where you
fit within the organization,and then you'll understand
where you fit and if what you'relooking for is even feasible.
Then it's having that toughconversation of saying
to your manager, wheneverfinancials come around for
(42:35):
us, we do it once a year.
So it's usually easier to justtie it into that conversation.
If you're at a performancereview, they're saying,
you're doing great.
You've done all this great work.
We're so happy to have you.
How do we keep you here?
Or any sort ofyou're doing good.
We're so happy you're here.
And it's that's great.
I took a pay cut to be here.
Industry norm is here,is all this data.
I'd like to be brought closer tothe mean and whatever that is.
(42:58):
And I know I saw a questionin the chat somewhere about
what do you do when someone,when they just refute the data
'cause they don't agree with it.
Find more data if you can.
I usually try to come with atleast two data points before
for any negotiation becauseit's helpful to have more than
one, so you're not having atotally bias just, oh, I liked
what this data was showing me.
(43:19):
So I think it's important tofind, have your research, have
some numbers to back you up.
Especially if you're seeingstuff like, oh, the sellers
that are posted on Glassdoorfor this company that I work
for are higher in range,that's publicly available.
They should do somethingabout that regardless
because the optics are there.
So I think it's a lotabout doing the prep and
understanding what's possiblewithin your organization,
(43:40):
within your industry as well.
Some industries just don'tpay as much, but you might get
more value out of the work.
For example, if you're workingin nonprofits, generally
they don't pay as much, butyou're probably getting a
lot more of that purposeand you're enjoying the work
for a different perspective.
Kelsey Alpaio (43:55):
Yeah, I thought that question too,
around bringing data to,your hiring manager, whoever
it is, and them saying, eh,I don't know about that.
I agree.
Like of course we love oursalary guide, but bring as
many data points as possible.
Use PMI's salarycalculator, use Glassdoor.
Find the data that you canand use it to back you up.
(44:15):
There's another great questionhere about career break.
So this person said, I havebeen on a career break and
I'm looking to go back.
I'm thinking about scaledagile certifications and would
like to know what will helpme to go back into financial
services where I workedbefore my 18 month break.
So essentially, when ending acareer break, how can you think
(44:36):
about planning for your career?
Should you get certifications?
How can you brushup on your skills?
Elizabeth, do you have aperspective on career breaks?
Elizabeth Harrin (44:44):
Yes, I do.
'cause I think that from aparenting perspective, taking
a career break, we knowthat there's a motherhood
penalty in salaries.
So it's really important whenyou're going back that you're
asking for as much money as youpossibly can to catch that up.
If you feel that'sgoing to affect you.
In terms of what certificationswould help you become more
relevant and get back intothe industry more quickly?
(45:06):
I would echo what McKenziesaid earlier, which is look
at what job descriptionsare asking for and make sure
you can tick those boxesbefore you want to go back.
Check out a few jobs infinancial services or the
industry that it is that youwant to step back into and
see what they're asking for.
And if Scaled Agile is whereit's at, then put some time
and effort into getting thatso that you are meeting the
bare minimum requirementsbefore you're applying.
(45:27):
I also think there's plentyof other things that you can
do with your time or thatyou can use to help you feel
that you're fitting back in.
Even things like LinkedInlearning or listening to
podcasts, or being part ofthe DPM community, all these
things will help you stayup to date with trends so
you can talk knowledgeablyabout them at interview.
Kelsey Alpaio (45:45):
I love that advice.
So a couple people wereasking about hiring right now.
So Diana asked, how muchis it really who you know
versus what you know?
Especially when AI recruitingis so daunting, and Ryan
added, AI modules are bakedinto these ATS systems.
So who you know is moreimportant than ever now?
Ben, what's yourperspective on this?
Ben Chan (46:06):
Yes, I would agree with that.
AI has, you people aregenerating AI resumes
and then AI is evaluatingthe AI resume, right?
So what's the differingpoint on there?
And the differing piece isgonna be the relationships
that you can go and build.
For me, actually, like I haven'treally formally applied for a
job or a contract position typeof thing for over six years.
(46:32):
Maybe even longer, I can'teven remember because I just
work and talk with people tounderstand what their needs are.
And it bypassesall of those areas.
So as much as it's great togo out there and people want
to go and hire people theyknow, people that they trust,
and that's really what I thinkis the bottom line for it.
(46:53):
They go through the interviewprocess to understand
can they trust you?
Can they trust you to beable to go and get the
things we need to get done?
And if you can build thatup earlier, all the better.
Kelsey Alpaio (47:03):
Absolutely.
Thank you to our panelists forvolunteering their time today.
Panelists, this was so much fun.
It was so insightful.
So thank you for sharingyour expertise with us today.
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