July 15, 2025 • 45 mins
When it comes to getting paid what you’re worth, project managers in 2025 are facing a unique challenge: job switching no longer guarantees a big raise, and most PMs are staying put—even if they feel underpaid. So what now? In this episode, Kelsey Alpaio sits down with Mukhtar Kadiri, Pam Butkowski, and Elaina Martinez to talk real strategies for negotiating a raise where you are—with confidence, clarity, and without burning bridges.
You’ll hear honest takes on why PMs feel undercompensated, how the market has shifted, and what leaders actually want to hear in raise conversations. From mapping your invisible impact to understanding company timing cycles and navigating tough “no’s,” this panel brings practical, actionable insights for anyone ready to make the ask—and get results.
Resources from this episode:
- Join DPM Membership
- Subscribe to the newsletter to get our latest articles and podcasts
- Connect with Mukhtar, Pam, and Elaina on LinkedIn
- Check out WorkTipsPro and Horizontal Digital
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kelsey Alpaio (00:05):
My name is Kelsey Alpaio.
I'm the executive editor forThe Digital Project Manager.
And today's session will focuson how to use your PM skills
to negotiate a raise in 2025.
And we will be speaking withsome of the top voices and
thought leaders in this space.
Mukhtar specializes in helpingpeople land 100-300K PM roles.
(00:27):
With his expertise in careercoaching, job search strategies,
and project program management,he revamps your approach,
showcases your unique value, andhelps you overcome the obstacles
holding you back so that youcan land the role you want and
get paid what you're worth.
And we have Pam, aseasoned digital delivery
leader and current SVPat Horizontal Digital.
(00:51):
With two decades of experiencescaling teams and driving
strategy at firms like HeroDigital and Wunderman Thompson,
she blends Agile Mastery withexecutive level insight to
help PMs thrive in complex,cross-functional environments.
And we have Elaina, whoalso works at Horizontal
Digital, alongside Pam as asenior program delivery lead.
(01:14):
She specializes in orchestratingdigital transformations across
UX/UI, brand strategy, agiledevelopment, data and analytics,
and marketing technology.
And she facilitatescollaboration across high
performing teams to ensurethey nail the vision
within timeline and budget.
Let's get into ourtopic for today.
(01:35):
At some point in your career,you have probably heard
the advice, "If you wannamake more money, just get
a new job." And for a longtime that actually worked.
Job hopping was one of thebest ways to boost your
paycheck, but that's reallynot the case anymore.
So in 2023, the median paybump for job switchers was
7.7% compared to 5.6% for thosewho stayed in their roles.
(01:59):
Now it's 4.8% for switchersand 4.6% for stairs.
So basically the same salarybump if you stay or leave.
So at the same time, mostproject managers aren't loving
their current compensation.
So as I mentioned, we justreleased our 2025 salary guide.
And according to the data wecollected from 600 plus PMs
(02:22):
around the world, 65% of PMsdon't think they're paid fairly.
But they're also notleaving their jobs.
So about 62% of ourrespondents also said they're
planning to stay in theircurrent roles this year.
So what do you do whenthe job market's shaky?
You're doing greatwork, but your paycheck
doesn't reflect it.
(02:43):
You figure out how togrow where you are, right?
You learn how to ask for whatyou deserve, and that is what
we're here to talk about today.
How to ask for that raiseand actually get it.
So I do wanna back up alittle bit here and get our
panelists perspectives on thatdata from our salary guide.
So I mentioned, accordingto our report, 65% of
(03:04):
respondents said they don'tfeel like they're paid fairly.
And I'm wondering what aresome of the factors that
you think are contributingto that disconnect?
Mukhtar, do you wannaget us started here?
Mukhtar Kadiri (03:15):
Yeah.
I think that there are acouple of things at the
risk of sounding like apolitician, I think that
things are getting expensive.
The cost of living is rising.
Wages haven't quite keptup, and I think that maybe
another factor is that manypeople actually got jobs
when, maybe a couple ofyears ago when the economy
was a bit different, right?
(03:36):
So I think that, on average,people tend to switch jobs maybe
within three to five years.
So for many people, maybe nowis that time for them to switch.
They came in at when theeconomy was quite good.
Salaries were different then andnow they want to actually switch
and change to a different job.
I think, just to, I know Iramble a bit, but I think
just to quickly summarize, Ithink there are a couple of
(03:57):
things in the number one wagejust haven't quite kept up.
Cost of reason has improvedand I think many people started
out, they got their jobs maybea couple of years back when the
economy was still different.
Kelsey Alpaio (04:09):
That makes sense, Pam?
Yeah.
Why don't you jump in here?
Pam Butkowski (04:12):
I think yes to all of that.
And just to hone in on thatsecond one a little bit more,
especially in the digitalspace, especially in project
management, the economy was adifferent thing a few years ago.
However, for us specifically,especially over the
pandemic, we saw a rise indigital project management
roles and needs, right?
(04:32):
Companies wereinvesting in digital.
They had to, when wewent completely remote.
We focused more onthings like e-comm.
We focused more on digitalexperiences and how to stay
connected to customers,even in a completely
remote world, right?
And so there was a higherdemand, which then meant
higher salaries for digitalPMs over the pandemic.
(04:56):
Now we're leveling out, right?
And so I think when we'retalking specifically
about how PMs.
Feeling that they'rebeing paid unfairly.
I think a lot of it doestoo, have to relate to
what we were being paid andwhat the market looked like
specifically for our roles.
A few years back, theneed has started to
level out a little bit,
Kelsey Alpaio (05:13):
absolutely.
Elaina, what's yourperspective on all of this?
Elaina Martinez (05:16):
Yeah, I would echo that.
I think as a PM, I thinkthe additional cost that has
been added over the courseof the years for returning
into the office, right?
Like when we startto look at, I.
Even just within the lastfive years being fully
remote or having more of thatflexibility, now companies
are asking us to come back.
(05:36):
So that is increasing justour daily, the daily grind.
We're back to that preCOVID era, the cost of
parking, the gas, the wearand tear, but also the
physical wear and tear on us.
Of that additional time.
And it does take a differentkind of energy from us.
So I think that could alsobe adding to the, what's
(05:56):
feeling taxing for us is notonly the financial aspect of
it, but then the physical ofnow I'm going into an office
four to five days a week.
That's extra exhausting on topof maybe some of the economic
concerns with salaries,keeping up with cost of living.
So I think combiningthose things and yeah, I
can understand why thatpercentage is so high.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the second part of thisis what makes all of that so
interesting, which is that 62%number, that 62% of respondents
also said they're planningto stay in their current
role, despite a lot of thosepressures and those feelings of
not being fairly compensated.
And so I'm wondering, whatare your thoughts on why PMs
(06:38):
are still reluctant to leavetheir jobs right now and are
those concerns warranted?
Elaina, do you wannaget us started there?
Elaina Martinez (06:44):
Yeah.
I can understandthe concerns, right?
Just with the nature of thebusinesses that we're in,
the market that we're in.
I think it's probably acrossindustries where people are
reluctant to go be the newperson at another company.
Right now, I think for myselfor for others that have been
in this position, that doesincrease the anxiety as you're
(07:06):
like the market's not great.
I don't wanna feel like I'mstarting over right now.
Even if my salary isn't whatI want it to be, at least
I have some tenure here andyou have a little, you feel
a little bit safer perhaps,just staying where you are
and trying to hunker down.
I think one trait that I'veseen across our, project
management industry isthat we're loyal people.
(07:28):
I think PMs tend to get veryinvested in the work and the
projects, and I think thattends to keep some of us in
places maybe a little bit longerthan we'd like to salary wise.
Kelsey Alpaio (07:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mukhtar, I know you workreally closely with folks
who are looking for new jobs.
Are you seeing this as atrend that people are a
little bit more reluctantto look for something new?
Or what fears are youseeing from clients?
Mukhtar Kadiri (07:53):
Yeah, no I see that as well, but I think
I'm in a bit of a differentposition in that like a lot of
times people come to me whenthey've decided that they wanna
find that next thing, right?
I think that a lot of people,it's very understandable that
a lot of people don't wanna,jeopardize their employment.
They don't want tobe the new person.
But I still do see inthis market people still
(08:14):
making a move and it wasstill increasing their pay.
Like just last week,somebody that we worked with.
Got like a 20 K increasea couple of weeks ago.
I've seen somebodyget a 70 5K increase.
So it's a tough market, butI think that people are still
making the pay jump, yeah.
Kelsey Alpaio (08:34):
That's definitely good to hear.
Pam, do you have anythingto add to this as well?
Pam Butkowski (08:38):
No, again, I mean I agree with
both Elaina and Mukhtar.
I think that the other thingtoo, just to layer onto
what Elaina was saying, itis scary starting something
new and PMs do have a lot ofloyalty to everything, right?
That's just who we are at heart.
But we also see what'shappening on LinkedIn right now.
We see what's happening in themarket and we see open to work
banners and we are going throughjust where the economy is.
(09:01):
Not to make this the themeof the day, but where
things are right now.
Like it is harder to find a jobthan it was a few years ago.
And people who like companiesare going through harder times
than we were over the lastfew years, which if you have a
stable position, maybe sometimesthat is not the worst thing,
so I think that PMs are alsofeeling like something is better
(09:23):
than nothing right now too.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
I do think the theme ofthe day a little bit is the
economy and the market, but.
Pam Butkowski (09:30):
I don't remember my said it.
I was like, I take itback that it's a theme.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:33):
It's okay.
It can be the theme, eventhough it's a big bummer,
a bummer theme of the day.
But yeah, that really launchesus, I think, into the meat
of what we wanna get intotoday, which is, if you're
not looking for a new job, ifyou're not looking to change
where you're going, but you'realso not happy with what
you're getting paid, askingfor a raise is one of the most
(09:53):
direct paths to salary growth.
But that's not to sayit's easy, especially in
this market, especiallywith our theme of the day.
So Elaina, I was wonderingif we could start with you.
I know you haveexperience with this.
You've asked for raises inthe past and you've been
successful in landing them.
So in your experience,what is the right way to
initiate this conversation?
Elaina Martinez (10:15):
It's a great question.
I've also, I've had successand earlier on in my career,
I've failed at this alsobecause I didn't really have
a good strategy with it.
I think.
The number one thingis I wouldn't spring
it on your manager.
I think where I have foundsuccess is that there had
been some foundation ofconversation about it.
There had beensome transparency.
(10:37):
I think springing it on yourmanager or a superior is gonna
catch them off guard, right?
Like you should have sometransparent conversations about.
Where you're at and worktogether to figure it
out as opposed to, Hey,I'm throwing this at you.
It's a bit of an ultimatum.
I don't think thatalways lands well.
I think just beingmore transparent.
(10:58):
Hopefully you have a goodrapport with your manager
to where you guys are ableto start some groundwork.
That's where I have had success.
Pam and I have workedtogether in other places,
and I think that was reallythe flow was that we were
able to transparently talkabout it and say, Hey, I.
This is not aligned nowwith the workload that
I have, and she agreed.
(11:20):
We worked togetherto figure it out.
I think where I have failedat it in my earlier career
was maybe being a littlebit more reactionary and
not being prepared forthe conversation, right?
You get the sense of it'snot fair, but you aren't
really prepared for it.
You haven't reallydone your homework.
That's not gonna set youup to look as though you've
(11:43):
done your homework andthat you're coming with.
A solution because you wannabe invested at the company.
So I think just going intothat with that mindset of, I
wanna be here, this is what'sgonna help keep me because
I wanna stay and continueto add value to the team.
Kelsey Alpaio (12:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And Pam, as someone who hasbeen on the other end of that
conversation, I wanna talkabout the scenarios where
you have said yes, where theperson asking gets that raise.
What are some of thethings that you look for
during those conversations?
Pam Butkowski (12:15):
Not feelings.
That's a big thing, right?
Make sure it's rootedin facts and proof.
And like Elaina said, beprepared and do your research
and understand and be readyto articulate the areas in
which you're thriving, in whichyou're exceeding expectations
that you're just knockingout of the park anywhere.
You can point it back toa job description, to role
expectations, to things thathave been laid out as far
(12:37):
as what's expected of youin your current position.
And if you're showing thatyou're hitting all of the
boxes, not just checkingthem but exceeding them,
you're gonna be more primed.
I will also say, understandyour company and when is the
right time to ask for these.
Some companies have reallydedicated windows where we do
raises, where we do promotions,and it's a non-starter
(13:00):
outside of those windows.
If that's the case at theorganization that you're at,
just like Elaina said, startthose conversations early and
say, when we get to January inthe raise window or whenever it
is, I'm gonna wanna talk aboutwhat that number looks like.
Let's start talkingabout it now.
I know that it's August,but start doing the legwork
now and start preparingfor those conversations so
(13:21):
that you're not catchingyour manager by surprise.
In a lot of cases, theperson that you're asking
for a raise from is notthe person who actually
holds the budgets, right?
They're gonna have to go havemore conversations as well.
So give them timeand space to do that.
Kelsey Alpaio (13:35):
I agree.
I think that's really greatadvice is just really starting
that conversation super early,planting the seeds before
you even really make and ask.
And Mukhtar, as someonewho helps PMs land
high paying roles.
What are some of the thingsthat you advise your clients
to say when negotiating,when asking for more money?
Is there a script or certainthings that you should say
(13:57):
that tend to help peopleland those higher salaries?
Mukhtar Kadiri (14:00):
There are a couple of things.
I think before we get to whatto say, I think the mindset
is very important, right?
A lot of times I usuallytry to remind people that
when you're negotiating withsomebody in the company, you
are on the same side and it'snot like you're negotiating
with a car salesperson becauseI think, I dunno, for some
reason, a lot of times when wenegotiate, we tend to adopt this
(14:21):
adversarial type of negotiation.
It's me versus you, but youwant to keep that relationship,
we are on the same sideof the table and the thing
on the other side of thetable is a mutual goal.
So how can we both worktogether to get there?
So that's one of themindset shifts that I try
to inculcate in, in thepeople that I work with.
The second is justwhatever happens.
(14:44):
Keep three things in mind.
Be grateful, be excited, andbe clear on what your asks are.
I think no matter whathappens, because negotiations
can get personal.
Just recently I was helpingsomebody negotiate and
she actually got upsetbecause I think she went in.
She's been laid off.
She's been looking for ajob, and then she got this
(15:04):
job after a while, and theunderstanding was that she
applied for a senior role.
They gave her an offer,but then the recruiter now
got on a call with her andsaid, okay, you know what?
We think that you don'thave that many experience,
so we wanted to actuallyput you at a junior role.
This was a negotiationtactic, 'cause I do this a
lot of time, but I knew itwas a negotiation actic.
But she took it personallyand she got upset about it,
(15:26):
which is very understandable.
And then it shook about, we'reable to work through that
and we're able to, still helpher land a very good package.
But the point I'm trying tomake here is if you really
go into a negotiation withthose three things in mind,
you're gonna be grateful,be excited, but be clear.
So it's because you're gonnabe working with these people,
so it's I'm so excited.
This means a lot.
(15:47):
I knew that you had somany other people, but
thank you for choosing me.
I'm so excited.
This is what I'm gonnabring to the table.
Just given my experience,just like what Pam and I
mentioned, you mentionedthe top three things that
you bring to the table.
Just given my experience, Ican do X, I can do Y, I can
do z. I believe that this iswhat makes sense for this role.
And I think whenyou do it like that.
A couple of things would happen.
(16:08):
Like you, you're not gonnarob people the wrong way.
And secondly, I think evenas PMs, it is expected
that you negotiate, right?
Because that is, it's partand parcel of your job, right?
You're gonna negotiate.
So you've been able to displaythose skills, I think would
also look good for you.
And a lot of times when youdo that, like I've never
had an offer rescinded inmy, years of doing this.
(16:28):
I've never had anyoffer rescinded.
But I think when you doit that way, like you
keep your mind at it.
Both of you want something thatcan work for both of you, and
then you are grateful, you'reexcited, and you are clear.
I think that usuallyresults in positive results.
Yeah.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:43):
Pam, did you have something you wanted to add?
Pam Butkowski (16:45):
Yeah, just layering on a little bit there.
I think all of that adviceis really sound, and I
think that what you saidabout organizations are
expecting negotiations.
That is absolutely truein the offer stage, when
when you get a new offerto start a new position,
a hundred percent true.
Absolutely negotiate.
We're expecting itduring the raise cycle.
(17:07):
I would say everyorganization is different.
Some organizations are willingto negotiate and have a slush
fund for those negotiationsaround raise windows and some
they are locked and thereis really no negotiating.
And so I would say understandwhat is possible within your
organization, and that's whyit's so important to have
those conversations early.
Before any kind of a raise,cycle or window happens, because
(17:32):
if there is no chance fornegotiation, you're outta luck.
So make sure you understandif that's a process or an
opportunity that you havein kind of those set cycles.
Kelsey Alpaio (17:43):
Absolutely.
What should you be preparingas part of that, homework
before you make the ask?
Is it the impact of yourwork industry Benchmarks?
How far in advance didyou start preparing?
So Elaina, can you jump inhere and tell us a little
bit more about the prep?
Elaina Martinez (17:59):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm glad you asked this becauseI think when we talk about
homework, it can sound a littlebit ambiguous in my mind and
how I've done this and how I'vehelped my team do this is really
understand your own story.
I think that's the mostimportant step is you can't
assume that your manageror any superior or even
(18:19):
your teammates can see.
All of that invisible valuethat PMs offer every single day.
We're doing so muchbehind the scenes that
is not always out front.
It's not always the sexiestwork, but we're adding a ton
of value that isn't gonnaget talked about, right?
So you have to know your story.
I think taking some time, evenif you did it over the course of
two weeks, to just try it out.
(18:41):
Jot down notes if you canfind 30 minutes a day or
do it on a weekly basis.
I know that adding work onour plates is really tough.
I think just getting in thathabit of keeping track of
that at a project basis.
If it's a week over week,like really whatever level
of fidelity you have timefor, but get those metrics.
Even if you're just jottingthings down, you can go back
(19:03):
and look at what are thethemes that are emerging.
I'm really good at thisthing that keeps coming up
in my notes, value adds.
How you're resolvingrisks, how you're blocking
and tackling, right?
All of it.
Just start dumping that ona, again, whatever cadence is
available to you, to just startto tell that story, right?
Again, don't assume anyone cansee what you're up to every day.
(19:26):
I think when we talk about thedata and making a data informed
ask, I could go to Pam andsay, I wanna make $400,000,
and I have now set us bothup for a very disappointing
conversation, right?
I think understanding yourmarket value tools like
Glassdoor or other, DPM toolshelp you understand where
do you fall, what is evenwithin the realm of your
(19:48):
seniority where you live.
Like you have to show someawareness around the ask.
Otherwise, it's gonna.
Again, going back to thatfeelings versus facts, right?
You wanna show that youhave that awareness,
you've done your homework.
So I think once you have someof those foundational data
points, the story emerges.
Like I said, you can lookback and go, I'm really
(20:09):
killing it in this area.
Start to tell thestory around that.
And I think too, we tendto only socialize to our
managers our successes.
I think one thing thatas PMs we can do is
socialize those successes.
Really across the organization.
I want Pam's boss to alsothink I'm killing it, right?
So what is the visibilityacross the organization?
(20:32):
Or if you're a PM that'sembedded with creative
technology, whoever you'reworking with, servicing
the team wins, right?
So it's not just your ownstory, but what is your
entire team crushing it?
Help them surface their wins.
That just continues to spread.
Those success metricsthroughout your entire team.
And then they go, wow, thatproject was really successful.
(20:54):
I'm hearing a lot ofpeople talk about it.
Who led that project?
Oh, led that project, right?
And just having these multiplestreams of where your work
is getting talked about, Ithink is really critical.
So it's not just going up toyour funnel, your manager,
but make your successes known.
Obviously you wanna betactful with that and
read the room, but.
(21:15):
I think it's, again, it allcomes back to really knowing
your story, be comfortabletalking about it, and you
leverage those one-on-ones.
I have one-on-ones with my team,Pam, and I have one-on-ones.
Those are strategic timesthroughout the week where I. You
know, Pam doesn't want a statusreport rattled off to her of
what I'm up to on my projects,unless there's something in
(21:36):
particular she wants to know.
That is our time for me to talkto her about where my head's
at, what are the strategicthings that I'm got rattling
in my head, or things thatI wanna run by her, or, Hey,
I did this awesome thing.
What do you think about it?
And just get comfortablewith those conversations.
I think that goes a long way.
And again, to thetiming aspect of it.
(21:58):
To Pam's point, sometimesthere's times throughout
the year where it's like endof year review, but I think
doing this throughout theyear and just setting that
stage, again, no surprises.
You shouldn't get to the end ofthe year and go, I expected a
promotion or a raise, and havethat be a surprise to your boss.
So again, getcomfortable with that.
(22:18):
Know your story, know your data.
Figure out how you can start totrack that throughout your work.
That's where that projectmanagement skill comes
in is being able to dothat for yourself too.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that the understandyour own story and
socialize those wins.
I feel like those are somegreat takeaways there.
Pam, what would you addhere to this prep work?
Pam Butkowski (22:38):
Yeah, I think on the other side of the table,
from the leadership perspective,Elaina's exactly right.
Talk about this early,talk about it often.
No surprises.
I'll say some of theconversations that
Elaina and I have aren'teven about her, right?
The she'll bring things like,I know that this person on my
team is going to ask for this.
I know that this personwho reports into me is
(23:01):
ready for a promotion.
They're feeling likethey're ready or they're
ready for a raise.
They believe that they're undercompensated and then we'll
start having those conversationsand strategizing about it as
well at a leadership level.
So when I said earlier,sometimes the person you're
talking to about getting a raiseisn't the person who actually
makes the decision about theraise that you're getting.
So those are some of theconversations that Elaina and I
(23:22):
have about her team members too.
So the earlier and like asmuch runway you can give
to have those conversationsor give space for those
conversations, the better.
From a leadership perspective,when we talk about do your
homework and do your prepwork and bring things to
the table showing thatyou deserve this raise.
The onus to give kindof tools to do that is
(23:44):
really on leadership.
I think that it's myresponsibility as the leader
of our project managementteam at Horizontal to clearly
set expectations for theteam on what good looks like.
What does success inyour role look like?
And I think ask if you don'thave those kinds of materials,
if you don't understandwhat success in your current
role looks like tactically,I don't mean I don't know.
(24:08):
Know it when I see it, right?
That's not what I mean.
A sheet of paper thatsays, here are the clear
expectations over a variety ofdifferent areas in your role.
If that doesn't exist,ask the question.
If you've never seen that,ask what's expected of you?
I think the same istrue for pay bans.
If you haven't seen pay bansfor your organization, it's
(24:29):
okay to ask if they exist.
Some organizations don'tcommunicate those publicly,
but you don't know if youdon't ask, it's okay to ask
the question, or it's okayto ask if you can see the pay
bans for your organization.
Totally fair question.
The answer might be no,and that's okay, but
it's okay to ask that.
But if you don't havethe data that you need or
the tools that you needto write your own story.
(24:52):
Ask for them.
Mukhtar Kadiri (24:53):
100%.
You should get clarity onwhat success looks like.
I don't want to add to that.
'Cause sometimes, or a lotof times as US PMs, we end up
coming to places where there'sa lot of chaos and there's
not a lot of processes, right?
So sometimes instead ofjust, asking and waiting
for you to be given thatsometimes you can actually
(25:13):
write down what you thinksuccess looks like and then
get alignment from a manager.
Because what I found, in my.
Almost 15 years of being a PMis that a lot of times, you have
to guide leadership sometimesas to what success looks like.
Like they also lookto you for guidance.
Don't hesitate to putthat on paper and then get
alignment from leadership.
Kelsey Alpaio (25:32):
I've worked in a lot of vibe organizations
where you don't know thepay bands, you don't know
what success looks like.
You don't have corecompetencies, you're just
like going off vibes.
But I love the simple adviceof just ask the question
because maybe those thingsexist and they just haven't
been communicated yet.
That does lead into my nextquestion for you, Mukhtar,
which is, if you don't havethose things, or maybe if
(25:53):
your role doesn't have moretraditional metrics that you
can point to show your value,what is the best way to find
your story and tell your storyand make that impact visible?
Do you have advice there?
Mukhtar Kadiri (26:06):
I think that revenue is one of
the easiest metrics.
The other thing, just goingback to what Pam and Elaina
said, is just really aligningwith your leadership.
One thing that I like todo is I usually like to
see what's really keepingmy boss up at night.
What is the mostimportant thing to know?
What are their frustrations,not just in with just
pain, like what is reallyfrustrating them, and I try
(26:27):
to tie what I do to that.
I'll give you an example.
One time I was taskedwith leading a platform
migration project, right?
And this was at asoftware company.
So like platform is likejust underground work,
so people don't reallyknow what we do, right?
So it's like infrastructure.
Even engineers don't quiteknow what we do, right?
(26:48):
But this company wanted to gofrom a hundred million dollars
a year to $400 million a year.
In order for them to dothat, the platform needed
to be robust and needed tobe able to scale, right?
So where I came in was now Iunderstood where they wanted
to go, and then I put myselfand our project as a piece in
(27:08):
the puzzle for them to get towhere they want to go to, right?
So there was no revenue tied tomy project out to the migration,
but doing my project wouldenable them to actually get
to where they want to get to.
So I think sometimeswe need to look for the
second order effect, right?
That's one example.
Like it's not always easy to tieyour, what you're doing to, to
revenue, you also have like timesave metrics, efficiency gain.
(27:29):
But I think that one of thethings that you can do is to
first look at what's reallyimportant to your boss, what's
important to your boss's boss,and then find a way to tie
what you're doing to that.
Kelsey Alpai (27:40):
Yeah, I love that.
Figuring out what's keepingthem up at night and tying your
story and your ass to that.
I do wanna talk a little bitmore about timing, which I know
I believe both Pam and Mukhtar.
You talked a little bitabout the timing of that ask.
So are there better points inthe year or project lifecycle
to make that ask if youdon't have specific windows?
(28:02):
And also thinking about like thetiming of just 20, 25 as a year,
that has lots of absolutelywild things happening in it.
How should we be thinking abouttiming when making this ask?
Pam, can you getus started here?
Pam Butkowski (28:17):
We've already talked quite a bit about
understanding when yourorganizations give out raises,
if that's standardized,if there is opportunity
for raises, ad hoc or not.
So I won't drain thatone anymore 'cause we've
already covered it.
I think there are someother timing considerations
though for sure.
I'll speak specifically forthe agency space because.
(28:37):
If your pipeline is dry, ifyou're not winning a lot of
work right now, if people arestressed about revenue and
sales, probably not the righttime to ask for more money.
If you are coming off of abunch of big wins and the
forecast is looking good forthe year, and you specifically
contributed to those wins inany way, that is your moment.
(28:59):
But read the room ifwe're stressed about
forecast or revenue forthe rest of the year.
Not only, and I'll be totallyblunt here, not only are
you probably not gonna geta raise if you ask for it,
you're gonna get a littlebit of a reputation of not
being able to read the room.
So I think it's really importantto understand not only, yes,
where you are in relation toother salary benchmarks, what
(29:22):
the value that like build yourstory, but knowing the right
time and place to tell yourstory is really important.
Kelsey Alpaio (29:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Specifically about if yourcompany does have those timing
windows, but because of, I don'tknow, layoffs or shifts in the
organization, you're asked totake on more responsibility.
Is that an appropriate timeto ask for a raise or should
you wait for that nextcompensation review window?
Elaina Martinez (29:51):
That's a tough one, but it's also a
really likely scenario rightin the landscape that we're in.
I would consider that.
A soft open for let's at leasthave the conversation, right?
A layoff has occurredor the company's going
through a tough time.
I think just laying thatgroundwork and making me ask to
understand, is this additionalresponsibility going to lead
(30:13):
me to a promotion, a raise?
Help me understand that.
But I think too, somethingfor us to think about is what
are the alternate asks, right?
If the financials are, it'snot the right time for that.
There might be some othercreative conversation you can
have with your manager to say,I know that right now is not
a good time in the finances.
(30:34):
Can we talk about.
Maybe suggest some thingsfor a better work-life
balance for yourself.
Hey, I'd like to work fromhome one extra day, or
Let's get creative withhow we negotiate at least
those interim solutions.
If it's not the right timeto talk about monetary value,
maybe it's an extra PTO day.
Something like, what can youthink of that is going to help
(30:57):
improve the quality of yourlife in that short term, I
think is important for us to.
Get a little bitcreative in our asks.
'cause your boss mightbe like, heck yeah, I
can give you eight hours,another eight hours of PTO.
No problem.
Or just give them somealternate things to say yes to.
Kelsey Alpaio (31:12):
I love that advice and it leads in
perfectly to this next partof the conversation, which
is what if you do get a no.
and Mukhtar, if the answeris not right now, what
should you try to do next?
Do you try again in six months?
Do you just try tostart making moves?
Elsewhere and trying to get thathigher salary somewhere else.
Are there other things thatyou should be asking for?
(31:33):
Do you have thoughts there?
Mukhtar Kad (31:34):
Yeah, no, for sure.
I think Elaina madesuch a good point.
I usually tell, like thepeople that I work with,
that there's so many thingsthat you can ask for.
Don't just fixateon salary, right?
So for example, it could be.
PTO like Elaina mentioned,it could also be things like
maybe l and d budget, right?
Because sometimes whathappens is that there's a
different budget for salaryand a different budget
(31:55):
for other things, right?
It could be even your title.
'cause sometimes gettingthat title is setting you up
for the next level and formaybe even your next career
outside of the company.
I think to answer your question,if you get a no, I think it
depends on the kind of no.
'cause we all know thereare different types of,
no, there is no way.
They're juststringing you along.
I. And then there is ano where it's okay, look,
(32:17):
really my hands are tied.
I'm gonna fight for you.
And I've had both, scenarios.
So I think if it's the knowwhere it's okay, maybe now is
not the right time, then you cansee if there are alternatives.
Okay, besides pay are the otherthings that we can do right now.
If it's a nowhere they'restringing you along, then
I think that you haveto make that decision.
And like in my case, I cangive an example of where it is.
(32:38):
Like I was asking for a raise.
Every time I wasexceeding expectations,
I was at the highest.
I had the highest score,but then there was always,
one story or the other.
I even tried doinglateral moves.
I even tried doing downwardmoves and then, still nothing.
And then I decided I wasgonna go external and even
before I went external.
Like I think one thingthat maybe you know, the
(32:59):
audience will relate to isthat even someone in the
courage to ask for a raiselike that takes a lot.
So to now be met with arejection like that could
affect your confidence, right?
So you need to prepare mentally.
So you can imagine doingthis several times in a
four year period and stillnot getting the raise.
So I think at some pointyou need to draw the line
somewhere and say, okay, Ithink if this is not working,
(33:20):
I really love this company.
I believe in the mission, but Ineed to take care of number one.
So that's what happened.
And then when I went externally,the market started to confirm
my value, and then my confidencestarted to increase again.
And one thing ledto another and then.
I ended up getting,landing another company
with a significant raise,which was about 60,000.
So I think it's fine, butto stay in your company.
(33:41):
But when you know if it's theknow that they're just stringing
you along, I think at some pointyou have to make the decision
on moving to another place.
Kelsey Alpaio (33:49):
Absolutely.
So I wanna get intosome questions from the
audience because we havesome awesome ones today.
This one from Diana, I thinkis really pertinent here.
How can I even think abouttalking to my boss about a pay
raise when our department staffwas slashed and doesn't look
like it's going to get better?
I do much more than PM work,so it can get frustrating
(34:11):
as I know I have earned it.
I have built my case.
Pam, can you jump in hereand tell Diana a little bit
about how to approach this?
Pam Butkowski (34:18):
I have two thoughts.
The first one is thecrappy one, and the
second one is productive.
Is now might just not bethe time based on your org.
Again, going back to readingthe room if your PM team was
just slashed, the company'sgoing through a tough time
right now, there is a very goodchance that leadership might
(34:39):
say, you should just feel luckyto be here right now, which is
the crappy thought right now.
The more productive thought.
I would say if you are doingthings that go much beyond the
expectations of a PM, maybethere's a conversation to be
had there, not just about money,but about role, about I'm taking
on client service or accountmanagement responsibilities,
(35:00):
or I'm taking on BAresponsibilities, or whatever
it is, and maybe there's somekind of a hybrid role that you
could move into that then hassalary that accompanies it.
But.
I would say think creativelyabout the actual work that
you're doing, and don'tsay, I'm doing a lot more
than what's expected of me.
Instead say, I'm taking onthese responsibilities from
this department and I wannatalk about a hybrid position.
(35:23):
If this is gonna stay thisway, long term, right?
At a minimum, that opens up aconversation for, no, this is
a short term thing, and thenit's gonna go back to normal.
And then you know that's what'sgonna happen in the future.
If it is gonna be a long-termthing, then you have a door
open to talk about your roleprogression and what this
means for your title andyour compensation long-term.
Kelsey Alpaio (35:42):
Elaina, do you have anything
to add there as well?
Elaina Martinez (35:45):
I would echo what Pam said.
I think unfortunately people aregonna hear some nos and like we
have talked about the nos suck.
I think from there it'sthinking about what your
game plan is gonna be after.
What are you gonna dowhen you hear the no.
Even if this hybrid titleapproach doesn't quite work
out, what can we do next?
(36:06):
And I think it's just a veryreal conversation to have with
yourself about what is the line.
How long can you go withoutthis being addressed, especially
if you're doing the workof more than one person.
We wanna stay where we are, butyou gotta take care of yourself
like Mutar said, and just havea very transparent conversation
with yourself about how longyou're willing to wait for that.
(36:29):
And it might just honestlybe the time to start making
those small steps towardsa different role outside
of that organization.
So that's the bummerelement of it, is it might
just be time to start.
Prepping to leave, whichnobody loves the job hunt,
but it could just be thereality, unfortunately.
Mukhtar Kadiri (36:46):
If I can add to that I think, you know what Pam
and Elaina said are spot on.
Maybe it's not even just waitinguntil you get the know, you can
just start maybe just keepingyour options open from right now
and, still working the internalangle because you never know.
Just keeping your optionsopen and as somebody who.
(37:07):
Is very engaged in theLinkedIn community.
I think we have a fantasticPM community on LinkedIn.
So you can juststart contributing
to the conversation.
And I think that now thatyou have this additional
responsibility, likethere's more than you can
actually contribute, right?
So I think that this canpossibly even set you up
for that next big thingoutside of your company.
(37:28):
Not saying that you shouldmove, but I'm saying you
know, don't need to waituntil you get a no to start
exploring options outside.
Kelsey Alpaio (37:34):
Okay.
We have another great questionfrom Evan that I think does
tie into this a little bit.
Evan says, I'm in a contractrole, but conversion has
been dangled a few timeswhen I pulled on this string.
However, with multiple directorsand senior managers, all
answers have been exceedinglymeial and dead ends.
Sorry.
I have another year on mycontract, and the cost of living
(37:57):
has already gone up so much.
It feels like I'mbeing shut out.
Would love a hot take.
Mukhtar Kadiri (38:02):
Just speaking from experience, I know I
can be cynical sometimes,but I feel like you should
just keep your options open.
You can still continue to pursuethat internal angle, but I
think that, you should stillconsider the external option.
I. For me, what that would dofor me is that it would also
just increase my confidencebecause like I mentioned before,
it's like just that constantdangling something, it could
(38:23):
just feel like gaslighting,and it's like I think that,
just considering the externaloption too is something that
I would do to just keep mysanity, but that's my take.
Elaina Martinez (38:32):
One thing I would just add to that,
I've done contract work andconsultant work in a past life.
Actually, horizontal hasa recruiting side of the
house, and I actually was aconsultant for them years ago.
One of the things thatwas critical for me in the
contract work was makingsure that the rate that I
was asking for really helpedaccount for the lack of the
(38:55):
benefits, the lack of PTO.
It might be a position whereyou're locked into a rate at
this point, maybe somethingto consider for your next
run is what is the rate?
Needed in order to help bridgethose gaps between the lack
of PTO and benefits so thatyou can stay comfortable,
stay competitive if youcontinue to do contract
work, as opposed to relyingon the FTE, which sometimes
(39:19):
just doesn't always convert.
Pam Butkowski (39:21):
The only thing that I would add to
that is really understand,understand reflecting why
you want to be converted toFTE if it is purely for pay,
probably the wrong reason.
The reality is that you likelywill get more contracting if
you are doing it consistentlybecause the company doesn't
(39:43):
carry the burden of benefitsor paying time off or right.
All of those things.
If it is for security, thatis a different thing for
long-term job security.
Absolutely.
You should be continuingto fight for it.
So I think understandingwhy you want to convert to
FTE is a really importantclarification and something
that you should reflect on.
Sometimes converting to FTEdoes not make you more money.
(40:04):
It makes you a little bitless, but you get the security,
you get benefits, you getpaid time off, you get all
of the benefits that youwouldn't get as a contractor.
So understand whyyou're asking for it.
Kelsey Alpaio (40:15):
Great.
Thank you for thatinsight there.
And this is a great questionfrom Karen that I think
would be good for you, Pam.
I have been concerned beforeabout asking for a raise because
they may think I'm leaving.
Is that even a real concern?
Have you ever had that thoughtwhen someone comes to you asking
for a raise that you thinkthey're on the verge of leaving?
Pam Butkowski (40:34):
Yep.
Frankly, that'smy first thought.
So it's important tosay I am not in a place
where I'm looking.
I am not unhappy here.
However, I am always goingto advocate for myself.
Make sure when you havethat conversation I don't
want people to not have thatconversation because the
first thing I'm gonna thinkis that you're leaving.
Just start the conversationwith, I'm not looking,
(40:54):
I'm not planning to leave.
I love it here.
However, I need to advocatefor myself and so I'm gonna ask
the questions and we're gonnahave a conversation about it.
I just need to hear itthat you're not leaving.
That's all I need.
But if you don't say thatand you don't make it clear
what your intention with theconversation is, or what the
alternate options are foryou, if it doesn't go the way
that you want it to go, weare gonna assume the worst.
(41:17):
I wish I could tell youwe didn't, but we will.
So just be clear about what yourintentions are and what happens
if you don't get what you want.
Elaina Martinez (41:25):
I think it's important in that scenario
to, like Pam is saying,to be very clear, right?
I've been on both sides ofthis, and I think as a manager,
when someone is come to me anddelivering a ultimatum, or it's
in the spirit of, like Akhtarwas saying at the beginning,
it's not we're on the same team.
It's more of an us versus them.
That just changes the natureof the conversation and
(41:48):
I think puts everyone ontheir back heel and I don't
know that's what you want.
I think coming into it, beingcollaborative, being willing to
get creative about what thosesolutions are gonna be is going
to put everyone at ease andthen is probably a quicker path
towards you getting some successin the conversation, whether
that's monetary or otherwise.
So it's a lot to do withhow you approach that.
(42:10):
I think just being veryprepared for what that's
going to mean afterwards.
Again, just get veryclear on your intentions.
Mukhtar Kadiri (42:18):
Just to add to what Pam and Elaina said, like
one of the, I think one thingthat has really helped me is
always addressing the elephant.
How this came up for you.
Okay, I don't want 'em to thinkthis extend that exercise.
What else do you thinkwill come up for them?
What are some of the fears?
And Chad can verygood with this.
So just name the elephant,like address all of that.
So whatever you thinkthat they're gonna think,
(42:39):
I'm not trying to leave.
I'm really happy here.
All of that, just namethat and express that.
And I think that, that reallyhelps you to communicate well.
Pam Butkowski (42:47):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing
that maybe we haven't talkedabout much and now feels
like the right time beforewe close really understand
what you're asking for.
If you're asking for a raiseand you don't get it, then
what, what is your next option?
Do you need to startlooking for something else?
And the answer might bedifferent for everyone, right?
Like sometimes you'll wanna ifit's a no, you'll wanna say,
(43:11):
what does the runway look like?
What could I have donedifferently to make this a yes?
Today, it's okay to askthose questions, right?
If you, and I can't saythis directly enough, if
you tell your organizationthat if you don't get a
raise, you are leaving andthen you don't leave, that
will be your reputation.
The worst thing you can do inany request for compensation
(43:31):
is make empty threats.
That's not helpful to you.
It's not helpful to the org.
We've hammered on this, andso I'll just drive it home, be
collaborative, work together tofind a solution that gets both
you and your org to a placethat makes everybody happy.
Don't make empty threatsand don't come in defensive.
It's not gonna end well.
Kelsey Alpaio (43:49):
I love that.
I think that's a greatplace to end here.
Thank you to our panelists forvolunteering your time today.
Panelists, this was somuch fun, so insightful.
So thank you for sharing yourexpertise with us here today.
My name is Kelsey Alpaio.
I'm the executive editor forThe Digital Project Manager.
And today's session will focuson how to use your PM skills
to negotiate a raise in 2025.
And we will be speaking withsome of the top voices and
thought leaders in this space.
Mukhtar specializes in helpingpeople land 100-300K PM roles.
(00:27):
With his expertise in careercoaching, job search strategies,
and project program management,he revamps your approach,
showcases your unique value, andhelps you overcome the obstacles
holding you back so that youcan land the role you want and
get paid what you're worth.
And we have Pam, aseasoned digital delivery
leader and current SVPat Horizontal Digital.
(00:51):
With two decades of experiencescaling teams and driving
strategy at firms like HeroDigital and Wunderman Thompson,
she blends Agile Mastery withexecutive level insight to
help PMs thrive in complex,cross-functional environments.
And we have Elaina, whoalso works at Horizontal
Digital, alongside Pam as asenior program delivery lead.
(01:14):
She specializes in orchestratingdigital transformations across
UX/UI, brand strategy, agiledevelopment, data and analytics,
and marketing technology.
And she facilitatescollaboration across high
performing teams to ensurethey nail the vision
within timeline and budget.
Let's get into ourtopic for today.
(01:35):
At some point in your career,you have probably heard
the advice, "If you wannamake more money, just get
a new job." And for a longtime that actually worked.
Job hopping was one of thebest ways to boost your
paycheck, but that's reallynot the case anymore.
So in 2023, the median paybump for job switchers was
7.7% compared to 5.6% for thosewho stayed in their roles.
(01:59):
Now it's 4.8% for switchersand 4.6% for stairs.
So basically the same salarybump if you stay or leave.
So at the same time, mostproject managers aren't loving
their current compensation.
So as I mentioned, we justreleased our 2025 salary guide.
And according to the data wecollected from 600 plus PMs
(02:22):
around the world, 65% of PMsdon't think they're paid fairly.
But they're also notleaving their jobs.
So about 62% of ourrespondents also said they're
planning to stay in theircurrent roles this year.
So what do you do whenthe job market's shaky?
You're doing greatwork, but your paycheck
doesn't reflect it.
(02:43):
You figure out how togrow where you are, right?
You learn how to ask for whatyou deserve, and that is what
we're here to talk about today.
How to ask for that raiseand actually get it.
So I do wanna back up alittle bit here and get our
panelists perspectives on thatdata from our salary guide.
So I mentioned, accordingto our report, 65% of
(03:04):
respondents said they don'tfeel like they're paid fairly.
And I'm wondering what aresome of the factors that
you think are contributingto that disconnect?
Mukhtar, do you wannaget us started here?
Mukhtar Kadiri (03:15):
Yeah.
I think that there are acouple of things at the
risk of sounding like apolitician, I think that
things are getting expensive.
The cost of living is rising.
Wages haven't quite keptup, and I think that maybe
another factor is that manypeople actually got jobs
when, maybe a couple ofyears ago when the economy
was a bit different, right?
(03:36):
So I think that, on average,people tend to switch jobs maybe
within three to five years.
So for many people, maybe nowis that time for them to switch.
They came in at when theeconomy was quite good.
Salaries were different then andnow they want to actually switch
and change to a different job.
I think, just to, I know Iramble a bit, but I think
just to quickly summarize, Ithink there are a couple of
(03:57):
things in the number one wagejust haven't quite kept up.
Cost of reason has improvedand I think many people started
out, they got their jobs maybea couple of years back when the
economy was still different.
Kelsey Alpaio (04:09):
That makes sense, Pam?
Yeah.
Why don't you jump in here?
Pam Butkowski (04:12):
I think yes to all of that.
And just to hone in on thatsecond one a little bit more,
especially in the digitalspace, especially in project
management, the economy was adifferent thing a few years ago.
However, for us specifically,especially over the
pandemic, we saw a rise indigital project management
roles and needs, right?
(04:32):
Companies wereinvesting in digital.
They had to, when wewent completely remote.
We focused more onthings like e-comm.
We focused more on digitalexperiences and how to stay
connected to customers,even in a completely
remote world, right?
And so there was a higherdemand, which then meant
higher salaries for digitalPMs over the pandemic.
(04:56):
Now we're leveling out, right?
And so I think when we'retalking specifically
about how PMs.
Feeling that they'rebeing paid unfairly.
I think a lot of it doestoo, have to relate to
what we were being paid andwhat the market looked like
specifically for our roles.
A few years back, theneed has started to
level out a little bit,
Kelsey Alpaio (05:13):
absolutely.
Elaina, what's yourperspective on all of this?
Elaina Martinez (05:16):
Yeah, I would echo that.
I think as a PM, I thinkthe additional cost that has
been added over the courseof the years for returning
into the office, right?
Like when we startto look at, I.
Even just within the lastfive years being fully
remote or having more of thatflexibility, now companies
are asking us to come back.
(05:36):
So that is increasing justour daily, the daily grind.
We're back to that preCOVID era, the cost of
parking, the gas, the wearand tear, but also the
physical wear and tear on us.
Of that additional time.
And it does take a differentkind of energy from us.
So I think that could alsobe adding to the, what's
(05:56):
feeling taxing for us is notonly the financial aspect of
it, but then the physical ofnow I'm going into an office
four to five days a week.
That's extra exhausting on topof maybe some of the economic
concerns with salaries,keeping up with cost of living.
So I think combiningthose things and yeah, I
can understand why thatpercentage is so high.
Kelsey Alpaio (06:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think the second part of thisis what makes all of that so
interesting, which is that 62%number, that 62% of respondents
also said they're planningto stay in their current
role, despite a lot of thosepressures and those feelings of
not being fairly compensated.
And so I'm wondering, whatare your thoughts on why PMs
(06:38):
are still reluctant to leavetheir jobs right now and are
those concerns warranted?
Elaina, do you wannaget us started there?
Elaina Martinez (06:44):
Yeah.
I can understandthe concerns, right?
Just with the nature of thebusinesses that we're in,
the market that we're in.
I think it's probably acrossindustries where people are
reluctant to go be the newperson at another company.
Right now, I think for myselfor for others that have been
in this position, that doesincrease the anxiety as you're
(07:06):
like the market's not great.
I don't wanna feel like I'mstarting over right now.
Even if my salary isn't whatI want it to be, at least
I have some tenure here andyou have a little, you feel
a little bit safer perhaps,just staying where you are
and trying to hunker down.
I think one trait that I'veseen across our, project
management industry isthat we're loyal people.
(07:28):
I think PMs tend to get veryinvested in the work and the
projects, and I think thattends to keep some of us in
places maybe a little bit longerthan we'd like to salary wise.
Kelsey Alpaio (07:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
Mukhtar, I know you workreally closely with folks
who are looking for new jobs.
Are you seeing this as atrend that people are a
little bit more reluctantto look for something new?
Or what fears are youseeing from clients?
Mukhtar Kadiri (07:53):
Yeah, no I see that as well, but I think
I'm in a bit of a differentposition in that like a lot of
times people come to me whenthey've decided that they wanna
find that next thing, right?
I think that a lot of people,it's very understandable that
a lot of people don't wanna,jeopardize their employment.
They don't want tobe the new person.
But I still do see inthis market people still
(08:14):
making a move and it wasstill increasing their pay.
Like just last week,somebody that we worked with.
Got like a 20 K increasea couple of weeks ago.
I've seen somebodyget a 70 5K increase.
So it's a tough market, butI think that people are still
making the pay jump, yeah.
Kelsey Alpaio (08:34):
That's definitely good to hear.
Pam, do you have anythingto add to this as well?
Pam Butkowski (08:38):
No, again, I mean I agree with
both Elaina and Mukhtar.
I think that the other thingtoo, just to layer onto
what Elaina was saying, itis scary starting something
new and PMs do have a lot ofloyalty to everything, right?
That's just who we are at heart.
But we also see what'shappening on LinkedIn right now.
We see what's happening in themarket and we see open to work
banners and we are going throughjust where the economy is.
(09:01):
Not to make this the themeof the day, but where
things are right now.
Like it is harder to find a jobthan it was a few years ago.
And people who like companiesare going through harder times
than we were over the lastfew years, which if you have a
stable position, maybe sometimesthat is not the worst thing,
so I think that PMs are alsofeeling like something is better
(09:23):
than nothing right now too.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
I do think the theme ofthe day a little bit is the
economy and the market, but.
Pam Butkowski (09:30):
I don't remember my said it.
I was like, I take itback that it's a theme.
Kelsey Alpaio (09:33):
It's okay.
It can be the theme, eventhough it's a big bummer,
a bummer theme of the day.
But yeah, that really launchesus, I think, into the meat
of what we wanna get intotoday, which is, if you're
not looking for a new job, ifyou're not looking to change
where you're going, but you'realso not happy with what
you're getting paid, askingfor a raise is one of the most
(09:53):
direct paths to salary growth.
But that's not to sayit's easy, especially in
this market, especiallywith our theme of the day.
So Elaina, I was wonderingif we could start with you.
I know you haveexperience with this.
You've asked for raises inthe past and you've been
successful in landing them.
So in your experience,what is the right way to
initiate this conversation?
Elaina Martinez (10:15):
It's a great question.
I've also, I've had successand earlier on in my career,
I've failed at this alsobecause I didn't really have
a good strategy with it.
I think.
The number one thingis I wouldn't spring
it on your manager.
I think where I have foundsuccess is that there had
been some foundation ofconversation about it.
There had beensome transparency.
(10:37):
I think springing it on yourmanager or a superior is gonna
catch them off guard, right?
Like you should have sometransparent conversations about.
Where you're at and worktogether to figure it
out as opposed to, Hey,I'm throwing this at you.
It's a bit of an ultimatum.
I don't think thatalways lands well.
I think just beingmore transparent.
(10:58):
Hopefully you have a goodrapport with your manager
to where you guys are ableto start some groundwork.
That's where I have had success.
Pam and I have workedtogether in other places,
and I think that was reallythe flow was that we were
able to transparently talkabout it and say, Hey, I.
This is not aligned nowwith the workload that
I have, and she agreed.
(11:20):
We worked togetherto figure it out.
I think where I have failedat it in my earlier career
was maybe being a littlebit more reactionary and
not being prepared forthe conversation, right?
You get the sense of it'snot fair, but you aren't
really prepared for it.
You haven't reallydone your homework.
That's not gonna set youup to look as though you've
(11:43):
done your homework andthat you're coming with.
A solution because you wannabe invested at the company.
So I think just going intothat with that mindset of, I
wanna be here, this is what'sgonna help keep me because
I wanna stay and continueto add value to the team.
Kelsey Alpaio (12:00):
Yeah, absolutely.
And Pam, as someone who hasbeen on the other end of that
conversation, I wanna talkabout the scenarios where
you have said yes, where theperson asking gets that raise.
What are some of thethings that you look for
during those conversations?
Pam Butkowski (12:15):
Not feelings.
That's a big thing, right?
Make sure it's rootedin facts and proof.
And like Elaina said, beprepared and do your research
and understand and be readyto articulate the areas in
which you're thriving, in whichyou're exceeding expectations
that you're just knockingout of the park anywhere.
You can point it back toa job description, to role
expectations, to things thathave been laid out as far
(12:37):
as what's expected of youin your current position.
And if you're showing thatyou're hitting all of the
boxes, not just checkingthem but exceeding them,
you're gonna be more primed.
I will also say, understandyour company and when is the
right time to ask for these.
Some companies have reallydedicated windows where we do
raises, where we do promotions,and it's a non-starter
(13:00):
outside of those windows.
If that's the case at theorganization that you're at,
just like Elaina said, startthose conversations early and
say, when we get to January inthe raise window or whenever it
is, I'm gonna wanna talk aboutwhat that number looks like.
Let's start talkingabout it now.
I know that it's August,but start doing the legwork
now and start preparingfor those conversations so
(13:21):
that you're not catchingyour manager by surprise.
In a lot of cases, theperson that you're asking
for a raise from is notthe person who actually
holds the budgets, right?
They're gonna have to go havemore conversations as well.
So give them timeand space to do that.
Kelsey Alpaio (13:35):
I agree.
I think that's really greatadvice is just really starting
that conversation super early,planting the seeds before
you even really make and ask.
And Mukhtar, as someonewho helps PMs land
high paying roles.
What are some of the thingsthat you advise your clients
to say when negotiating,when asking for more money?
Is there a script or certainthings that you should say
(13:57):
that tend to help peopleland those higher salaries?
Mukhtar Kadiri (14:00):
There are a couple of things.
I think before we get to whatto say, I think the mindset
is very important, right?
A lot of times I usuallytry to remind people that
when you're negotiating withsomebody in the company, you
are on the same side and it'snot like you're negotiating
with a car salesperson becauseI think, I dunno, for some
reason, a lot of times when wenegotiate, we tend to adopt this
(14:21):
adversarial type of negotiation.
It's me versus you, but youwant to keep that relationship,
we are on the same sideof the table and the thing
on the other side of thetable is a mutual goal.
So how can we both worktogether to get there?
So that's one of themindset shifts that I try
to inculcate in, in thepeople that I work with.
The second is justwhatever happens.
(14:44):
Keep three things in mind.
Be grateful, be excited, andbe clear on what your asks are.
I think no matter whathappens, because negotiations
can get personal.
Just recently I was helpingsomebody negotiate and
she actually got upsetbecause I think she went in.
She's been laid off.
She's been looking for ajob, and then she got this
(15:04):
job after a while, and theunderstanding was that she
applied for a senior role.
They gave her an offer,but then the recruiter now
got on a call with her andsaid, okay, you know what?
We think that you don'thave that many experience,
so we wanted to actuallyput you at a junior role.
This was a negotiationtactic, 'cause I do this a
lot of time, but I knew itwas a negotiation actic.
But she took it personallyand she got upset about it,
(15:26):
which is very understandable.
And then it shook about, we'reable to work through that
and we're able to, still helpher land a very good package.
But the point I'm trying tomake here is if you really
go into a negotiation withthose three things in mind,
you're gonna be grateful,be excited, but be clear.
So it's because you're gonnabe working with these people,
so it's I'm so excited.
This means a lot.
(15:47):
I knew that you had somany other people, but
thank you for choosing me.
I'm so excited.
This is what I'm gonnabring to the table.
Just given my experience,just like what Pam and I
mentioned, you mentionedthe top three things that
you bring to the table.
Just given my experience, Ican do X, I can do Y, I can
do z. I believe that this iswhat makes sense for this role.
And I think whenyou do it like that.
A couple of things would happen.
(16:08):
Like you, you're not gonnarob people the wrong way.
And secondly, I think evenas PMs, it is expected
that you negotiate, right?
Because that is, it's partand parcel of your job, right?
You're gonna negotiate.
So you've been able to displaythose skills, I think would
also look good for you.
And a lot of times when youdo that, like I've never
had an offer rescinded inmy, years of doing this.
(16:28):
I've never had anyoffer rescinded.
But I think when you doit that way, like you
keep your mind at it.
Both of you want something thatcan work for both of you, and
then you are grateful, you'reexcited, and you are clear.
I think that usuallyresults in positive results.
Yeah.
Kelsey Alpaio (16:43):
Pam, did you have something you wanted to add?
Pam Butkowski (16:45):
Yeah, just layering on a little bit there.
I think all of that adviceis really sound, and I
think that what you saidabout organizations are
expecting negotiations.
That is absolutely truein the offer stage, when
when you get a new offerto start a new position,
a hundred percent true.
Absolutely negotiate.
We're expecting itduring the raise cycle.
(17:07):
I would say everyorganization is different.
Some organizations are willingto negotiate and have a slush
fund for those negotiationsaround raise windows and some
they are locked and thereis really no negotiating.
And so I would say understandwhat is possible within your
organization, and that's whyit's so important to have
those conversations early.
Before any kind of a raise,cycle or window happens, because
(17:32):
if there is no chance fornegotiation, you're outta luck.
So make sure you understandif that's a process or an
opportunity that you havein kind of those set cycles.
Kelsey Alpaio (17:43):
Absolutely.
What should you be preparingas part of that, homework
before you make the ask?
Is it the impact of yourwork industry Benchmarks?
How far in advance didyou start preparing?
So Elaina, can you jump inhere and tell us a little
bit more about the prep?
Elaina Martinez (17:59):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm glad you asked this becauseI think when we talk about
homework, it can sound a littlebit ambiguous in my mind and
how I've done this and how I'vehelped my team do this is really
understand your own story.
I think that's the mostimportant step is you can't
assume that your manageror any superior or even
(18:19):
your teammates can see.
All of that invisible valuethat PMs offer every single day.
We're doing so muchbehind the scenes that
is not always out front.
It's not always the sexiestwork, but we're adding a ton
of value that isn't gonnaget talked about, right?
So you have to know your story.
I think taking some time, evenif you did it over the course of
two weeks, to just try it out.
(18:41):
Jot down notes if you canfind 30 minutes a day or
do it on a weekly basis.
I know that adding work onour plates is really tough.
I think just getting in thathabit of keeping track of
that at a project basis.
If it's a week over week,like really whatever level
of fidelity you have timefor, but get those metrics.
Even if you're just jottingthings down, you can go back
(19:03):
and look at what are thethemes that are emerging.
I'm really good at thisthing that keeps coming up
in my notes, value adds.
How you're resolvingrisks, how you're blocking
and tackling, right?
All of it.
Just start dumping that ona, again, whatever cadence is
available to you, to just startto tell that story, right?
Again, don't assume anyone cansee what you're up to every day.
(19:26):
I think when we talk about thedata and making a data informed
ask, I could go to Pam andsay, I wanna make $400,000,
and I have now set us bothup for a very disappointing
conversation, right?
I think understanding yourmarket value tools like
Glassdoor or other, DPM toolshelp you understand where
do you fall, what is evenwithin the realm of your
(19:48):
seniority where you live.
Like you have to show someawareness around the ask.
Otherwise, it's gonna.
Again, going back to thatfeelings versus facts, right?
You wanna show that youhave that awareness,
you've done your homework.
So I think once you have someof those foundational data
points, the story emerges.
Like I said, you can lookback and go, I'm really
(20:09):
killing it in this area.
Start to tell thestory around that.
And I think too, we tendto only socialize to our
managers our successes.
I think one thing thatas PMs we can do is
socialize those successes.
Really across the organization.
I want Pam's boss to alsothink I'm killing it, right?
So what is the visibilityacross the organization?
(20:32):
Or if you're a PM that'sembedded with creative
technology, whoever you'reworking with, servicing
the team wins, right?
So it's not just your ownstory, but what is your
entire team crushing it?
Help them surface their wins.
That just continues to spread.
Those success metricsthroughout your entire team.
And then they go, wow, thatproject was really successful.
(20:54):
I'm hearing a lot ofpeople talk about it.
Who led that project?
Oh, led that project, right?
And just having these multiplestreams of where your work
is getting talked about, Ithink is really critical.
So it's not just going up toyour funnel, your manager,
but make your successes known.
Obviously you wanna betactful with that and
read the room, but.
(21:15):
I think it's, again, it allcomes back to really knowing
your story, be comfortabletalking about it, and you
leverage those one-on-ones.
I have one-on-ones with my team,Pam, and I have one-on-ones.
Those are strategic timesthroughout the week where I. You
know, Pam doesn't want a statusreport rattled off to her of
what I'm up to on my projects,unless there's something in
(21:36):
particular she wants to know.
That is our time for me to talkto her about where my head's
at, what are the strategicthings that I'm got rattling
in my head, or things thatI wanna run by her, or, Hey,
I did this awesome thing.
What do you think about it?
And just get comfortablewith those conversations.
I think that goes a long way.
And again, to thetiming aspect of it.
(21:58):
To Pam's point, sometimesthere's times throughout
the year where it's like endof year review, but I think
doing this throughout theyear and just setting that
stage, again, no surprises.
You shouldn't get to the end ofthe year and go, I expected a
promotion or a raise, and havethat be a surprise to your boss.
So again, getcomfortable with that.
(22:18):
Know your story, know your data.
Figure out how you can start totrack that throughout your work.
That's where that projectmanagement skill comes
in is being able to dothat for yourself too.
Kelsey Alpaio (22:28):
Yeah, absolutely.
I love that the understandyour own story and
socialize those wins.
I feel like those are somegreat takeaways there.
Pam, what would you addhere to this prep work?
Pam Butkowski (22:38):
Yeah, I think on the other side of the table,
from the leadership perspective,Elaina's exactly right.
Talk about this early,talk about it often.
No surprises.
I'll say some of theconversations that
Elaina and I have aren'teven about her, right?
The she'll bring things like,I know that this person on my
team is going to ask for this.
I know that this personwho reports into me is
(23:01):
ready for a promotion.
They're feeling likethey're ready or they're
ready for a raise.
They believe that they're undercompensated and then we'll
start having those conversationsand strategizing about it as
well at a leadership level.
So when I said earlier,sometimes the person you're
talking to about getting a raiseisn't the person who actually
makes the decision about theraise that you're getting.
So those are some of theconversations that Elaina and I
(23:22):
have about her team members too.
So the earlier and like asmuch runway you can give
to have those conversationsor give space for those
conversations, the better.
From a leadership perspective,when we talk about do your
homework and do your prepwork and bring things to
the table showing thatyou deserve this raise.
The onus to give kindof tools to do that is
(23:44):
really on leadership.
I think that it's myresponsibility as the leader
of our project managementteam at Horizontal to clearly
set expectations for theteam on what good looks like.
What does success inyour role look like?
And I think ask if you don'thave those kinds of materials,
if you don't understandwhat success in your current
role looks like tactically,I don't mean I don't know.
(24:08):
Know it when I see it, right?
That's not what I mean.
A sheet of paper thatsays, here are the clear
expectations over a variety ofdifferent areas in your role.
If that doesn't exist,ask the question.
If you've never seen that,ask what's expected of you?
I think the same istrue for pay bans.
If you haven't seen pay bansfor your organization, it's
(24:29):
okay to ask if they exist.
Some organizations don'tcommunicate those publicly,
but you don't know if youdon't ask, it's okay to ask
the question, or it's okayto ask if you can see the pay
bans for your organization.
Totally fair question.
The answer might be no,and that's okay, but
it's okay to ask that.
But if you don't havethe data that you need or
the tools that you needto write your own story.
(24:52):
Ask for them.
Mukhtar Kadiri (24:53):
100%.
You should get clarity onwhat success looks like.
I don't want to add to that.
'Cause sometimes, or a lotof times as US PMs, we end up
coming to places where there'sa lot of chaos and there's
not a lot of processes, right?
So sometimes instead ofjust, asking and waiting
for you to be given thatsometimes you can actually
(25:13):
write down what you thinksuccess looks like and then
get alignment from a manager.
Because what I found, in my.
Almost 15 years of being a PMis that a lot of times, you have
to guide leadership sometimesas to what success looks like.
Like they also lookto you for guidance.
Don't hesitate to putthat on paper and then get
alignment from leadership.
Kelsey Alpaio (25:32):
I've worked in a lot of vibe organizations
where you don't know thepay bands, you don't know
what success looks like.
You don't have corecompetencies, you're just
like going off vibes.
But I love the simple adviceof just ask the question
because maybe those thingsexist and they just haven't
been communicated yet.
That does lead into my nextquestion for you, Mukhtar,
which is, if you don't havethose things, or maybe if
(25:53):
your role doesn't have moretraditional metrics that you
can point to show your value,what is the best way to find
your story and tell your storyand make that impact visible?
Do you have advice there?
Mukhtar Kadiri (26:06):
I think that revenue is one of
the easiest metrics.
The other thing, just goingback to what Pam and Elaina
said, is just really aligningwith your leadership.
One thing that I like todo is I usually like to
see what's really keepingmy boss up at night.
What is the mostimportant thing to know?
What are their frustrations,not just in with just
pain, like what is reallyfrustrating them, and I try
(26:27):
to tie what I do to that.
I'll give you an example.
One time I was taskedwith leading a platform
migration project, right?
And this was at asoftware company.
So like platform is likejust underground work,
so people don't reallyknow what we do, right?
So it's like infrastructure.
Even engineers don't quiteknow what we do, right?
(26:48):
But this company wanted to gofrom a hundred million dollars
a year to $400 million a year.
In order for them to dothat, the platform needed
to be robust and needed tobe able to scale, right?
So where I came in was now Iunderstood where they wanted
to go, and then I put myselfand our project as a piece in
(27:08):
the puzzle for them to get towhere they want to go to, right?
So there was no revenue tied tomy project out to the migration,
but doing my project wouldenable them to actually get
to where they want to get to.
So I think sometimeswe need to look for the
second order effect, right?
That's one example.
Like it's not always easy to tieyour, what you're doing to, to
revenue, you also have like timesave metrics, efficiency gain.
(27:29):
But I think that one of thethings that you can do is to
first look at what's reallyimportant to your boss, what's
important to your boss's boss,and then find a way to tie
what you're doing to that.
Kelsey Alpai (27:40):
Yeah, I love that.
Figuring out what's keepingthem up at night and tying your
story and your ass to that.
I do wanna talk a little bitmore about timing, which I know
I believe both Pam and Mukhtar.
You talked a little bitabout the timing of that ask.
So are there better points inthe year or project lifecycle
to make that ask if youdon't have specific windows?
(28:02):
And also thinking about like thetiming of just 20, 25 as a year,
that has lots of absolutelywild things happening in it.
How should we be thinking abouttiming when making this ask?
Pam, can you getus started here?
Pam Butkowski (28:17):
We've already talked quite a bit about
understanding when yourorganizations give out raises,
if that's standardized,if there is opportunity
for raises, ad hoc or not.
So I won't drain thatone anymore 'cause we've
already covered it.
I think there are someother timing considerations
though for sure.
I'll speak specifically forthe agency space because.
(28:37):
If your pipeline is dry, ifyou're not winning a lot of
work right now, if people arestressed about revenue and
sales, probably not the righttime to ask for more money.
If you are coming off of abunch of big wins and the
forecast is looking good forthe year, and you specifically
contributed to those wins inany way, that is your moment.
(28:59):
But read the room ifwe're stressed about
forecast or revenue forthe rest of the year.
Not only, and I'll be totallyblunt here, not only are
you probably not gonna geta raise if you ask for it,
you're gonna get a littlebit of a reputation of not
being able to read the room.
So I think it's really importantto understand not only, yes,
where you are in relation toother salary benchmarks, what
(29:22):
the value that like build yourstory, but knowing the right
time and place to tell yourstory is really important.
Kelsey Alpaio (29:29):
Yeah, absolutely.
Specifically about if yourcompany does have those timing
windows, but because of, I don'tknow, layoffs or shifts in the
organization, you're asked totake on more responsibility.
Is that an appropriate timeto ask for a raise or should
you wait for that nextcompensation review window?
Elaina Martinez (29:51):
That's a tough one, but it's also a
really likely scenario rightin the landscape that we're in.
I would consider that.
A soft open for let's at leasthave the conversation, right?
A layoff has occurredor the company's going
through a tough time.
I think just laying thatgroundwork and making me ask to
understand, is this additionalresponsibility going to lead
(30:13):
me to a promotion, a raise?
Help me understand that.
But I think too, somethingfor us to think about is what
are the alternate asks, right?
If the financials are, it'snot the right time for that.
There might be some othercreative conversation you can
have with your manager to say,I know that right now is not
a good time in the finances.
(30:34):
Can we talk about.
Maybe suggest some thingsfor a better work-life
balance for yourself.
Hey, I'd like to work fromhome one extra day, or
Let's get creative withhow we negotiate at least
those interim solutions.
If it's not the right timeto talk about monetary value,
maybe it's an extra PTO day.
Something like, what can youthink of that is going to help
(30:57):
improve the quality of yourlife in that short term, I
think is important for us to.
Get a little bitcreative in our asks.
'cause your boss mightbe like, heck yeah, I
can give you eight hours,another eight hours of PTO.
No problem.
Or just give them somealternate things to say yes to.
Kelsey Alpaio (31:12):
I love that advice and it leads in
perfectly to this next partof the conversation, which
is what if you do get a no.
and Mukhtar, if the answeris not right now, what
should you try to do next?
Do you try again in six months?
Do you just try tostart making moves?
Elsewhere and trying to get thathigher salary somewhere else.
Are there other things thatyou should be asking for?
(31:33):
Do you have thoughts there?
Mukhtar Kad (31:34):
Yeah, no, for sure.
I think Elaina madesuch a good point.
I usually tell, like thepeople that I work with,
that there's so many thingsthat you can ask for.
Don't just fixateon salary, right?
So for example, it could be.
PTO like Elaina mentioned,it could also be things like
maybe l and d budget, right?
Because sometimes whathappens is that there's a
different budget for salaryand a different budget
(31:55):
for other things, right?
It could be even your title.
'cause sometimes gettingthat title is setting you up
for the next level and formaybe even your next career
outside of the company.
I think to answer your question,if you get a no, I think it
depends on the kind of no.
'cause we all know thereare different types of,
no, there is no way.
They're juststringing you along.
I. And then there is ano where it's okay, look,
(32:17):
really my hands are tied.
I'm gonna fight for you.
And I've had both, scenarios.
So I think if it's the knowwhere it's okay, maybe now is
not the right time, then you cansee if there are alternatives.
Okay, besides pay are the otherthings that we can do right now.
If it's a nowhere they'restringing you along, then
I think that you haveto make that decision.
And like in my case, I cangive an example of where it is.
(32:38):
Like I was asking for a raise.
Every time I wasexceeding expectations,
I was at the highest.
I had the highest score,but then there was always,
one story or the other.
I even tried doinglateral moves.
I even tried doing downwardmoves and then, still nothing.
And then I decided I wasgonna go external and even
before I went external.
Like I think one thingthat maybe you know, the
(32:59):
audience will relate to isthat even someone in the
courage to ask for a raiselike that takes a lot.
So to now be met with arejection like that could
affect your confidence, right?
So you need to prepare mentally.
So you can imagine doingthis several times in a
four year period and stillnot getting the raise.
So I think at some pointyou need to draw the line
somewhere and say, okay, Ithink if this is not working,
(33:20):
I really love this company.
I believe in the mission, but Ineed to take care of number one.
So that's what happened.
And then when I went externally,the market started to confirm
my value, and then my confidencestarted to increase again.
And one thing ledto another and then.
I ended up getting,landing another company
with a significant raise,which was about 60,000.
So I think it's fine, butto stay in your company.
(33:41):
But when you know if it's theknow that they're just stringing
you along, I think at some pointyou have to make the decision
on moving to another place.
Kelsey Alpaio (33:49):
Absolutely.
So I wanna get intosome questions from the
audience because we havesome awesome ones today.
This one from Diana, I thinkis really pertinent here.
How can I even think abouttalking to my boss about a pay
raise when our department staffwas slashed and doesn't look
like it's going to get better?
I do much more than PM work,so it can get frustrating
(34:11):
as I know I have earned it.
I have built my case.
Pam, can you jump in hereand tell Diana a little bit
about how to approach this?
Pam Butkowski (34:18):
I have two thoughts.
The first one is thecrappy one, and the
second one is productive.
Is now might just not bethe time based on your org.
Again, going back to readingthe room if your PM team was
just slashed, the company'sgoing through a tough time
right now, there is a very goodchance that leadership might
(34:39):
say, you should just feel luckyto be here right now, which is
the crappy thought right now.
The more productive thought.
I would say if you are doingthings that go much beyond the
expectations of a PM, maybethere's a conversation to be
had there, not just about money,but about role, about I'm taking
on client service or accountmanagement responsibilities,
(35:00):
or I'm taking on BAresponsibilities, or whatever
it is, and maybe there's somekind of a hybrid role that you
could move into that then hassalary that accompanies it.
But.
I would say think creativelyabout the actual work that
you're doing, and don'tsay, I'm doing a lot more
than what's expected of me.
Instead say, I'm taking onthese responsibilities from
this department and I wannatalk about a hybrid position.
(35:23):
If this is gonna stay thisway, long term, right?
At a minimum, that opens up aconversation for, no, this is
a short term thing, and thenit's gonna go back to normal.
And then you know that's what'sgonna happen in the future.
If it is gonna be a long-termthing, then you have a door
open to talk about your roleprogression and what this
means for your title andyour compensation long-term.
Kelsey Alpaio (35:42):
Elaina, do you have anything
to add there as well?
Elaina Martinez (35:45):
I would echo what Pam said.
I think unfortunately people aregonna hear some nos and like we
have talked about the nos suck.
I think from there it'sthinking about what your
game plan is gonna be after.
What are you gonna dowhen you hear the no.
Even if this hybrid titleapproach doesn't quite work
out, what can we do next?
(36:06):
And I think it's just a veryreal conversation to have with
yourself about what is the line.
How long can you go withoutthis being addressed, especially
if you're doing the workof more than one person.
We wanna stay where we are, butyou gotta take care of yourself
like Mutar said, and just havea very transparent conversation
with yourself about how longyou're willing to wait for that.
(36:29):
And it might just honestlybe the time to start making
those small steps towardsa different role outside
of that organization.
So that's the bummerelement of it, is it might
just be time to start.
Prepping to leave, whichnobody loves the job hunt,
but it could just be thereality, unfortunately.
Mukhtar Kadiri (36:46):
If I can add to that I think, you know what Pam
and Elaina said are spot on.
Maybe it's not even just waitinguntil you get the know, you can
just start maybe just keepingyour options open from right now
and, still working the internalangle because you never know.
Just keeping your optionsopen and as somebody who.
(37:07):
Is very engaged in theLinkedIn community.
I think we have a fantasticPM community on LinkedIn.
So you can juststart contributing
to the conversation.
And I think that now thatyou have this additional
responsibility, likethere's more than you can
actually contribute, right?
So I think that this canpossibly even set you up
for that next big thingoutside of your company.
(37:28):
Not saying that you shouldmove, but I'm saying you
know, don't need to waituntil you get a no to start
exploring options outside.
Kelsey Alpaio (37:34):
Okay.
We have another great questionfrom Evan that I think does
tie into this a little bit.
Evan says, I'm in a contractrole, but conversion has
been dangled a few timeswhen I pulled on this string.
However, with multiple directorsand senior managers, all
answers have been exceedinglymeial and dead ends.
Sorry.
I have another year on mycontract, and the cost of living
(37:57):
has already gone up so much.
It feels like I'mbeing shut out.
Would love a hot take.
Mukhtar Kadiri (38:02):
Just speaking from experience, I know I
can be cynical sometimes,but I feel like you should
just keep your options open.
You can still continue to pursuethat internal angle, but I
think that, you should stillconsider the external option.
I. For me, what that would dofor me is that it would also
just increase my confidencebecause like I mentioned before,
it's like just that constantdangling something, it could
(38:23):
just feel like gaslighting,and it's like I think that,
just considering the externaloption too is something that
I would do to just keep mysanity, but that's my take.
Elaina Martinez (38:32):
One thing I would just add to that,
I've done contract work andconsultant work in a past life.
Actually, horizontal hasa recruiting side of the
house, and I actually was aconsultant for them years ago.
One of the things thatwas critical for me in the
contract work was makingsure that the rate that I
was asking for really helpedaccount for the lack of the
(38:55):
benefits, the lack of PTO.
It might be a position whereyou're locked into a rate at
this point, maybe somethingto consider for your next
run is what is the rate?
Needed in order to help bridgethose gaps between the lack
of PTO and benefits so thatyou can stay comfortable,
stay competitive if youcontinue to do contract
work, as opposed to relyingon the FTE, which sometimes
(39:19):
just doesn't always convert.
Pam Butkowski (39:21):
The only thing that I would add to
that is really understand,understand reflecting why
you want to be converted toFTE if it is purely for pay,
probably the wrong reason.
The reality is that you likelywill get more contracting if
you are doing it consistentlybecause the company doesn't
(39:43):
carry the burden of benefitsor paying time off or right.
All of those things.
If it is for security, thatis a different thing for
long-term job security.
Absolutely.
You should be continuingto fight for it.
So I think understandingwhy you want to convert to
FTE is a really importantclarification and something
that you should reflect on.
Sometimes converting to FTEdoes not make you more money.
(40:04):
It makes you a little bitless, but you get the security,
you get benefits, you getpaid time off, you get all
of the benefits that youwouldn't get as a contractor.
So understand whyyou're asking for it.
Kelsey Alpaio (40:15):
Great.
Thank you for thatinsight there.
And this is a great questionfrom Karen that I think
would be good for you, Pam.
I have been concerned beforeabout asking for a raise because
they may think I'm leaving.
Is that even a real concern?
Have you ever had that thoughtwhen someone comes to you asking
for a raise that you thinkthey're on the verge of leaving?
Pam Butkowski (40:34):
Yep.
Frankly, that'smy first thought.
So it's important tosay I am not in a place
where I'm looking.
I am not unhappy here.
However, I am always goingto advocate for myself.
Make sure when you havethat conversation I don't
want people to not have thatconversation because the
first thing I'm gonna thinkis that you're leaving.
Just start the conversationwith, I'm not looking,
(40:54):
I'm not planning to leave.
I love it here.
However, I need to advocatefor myself and so I'm gonna ask
the questions and we're gonnahave a conversation about it.
I just need to hear itthat you're not leaving.
That's all I need.
But if you don't say thatand you don't make it clear
what your intention with theconversation is, or what the
alternate options are foryou, if it doesn't go the way
that you want it to go, weare gonna assume the worst.
(41:17):
I wish I could tell youwe didn't, but we will.
So just be clear about what yourintentions are and what happens
if you don't get what you want.
Elaina Martinez (41:25):
I think it's important in that scenario
to, like Pam is saying,to be very clear, right?
I've been on both sides ofthis, and I think as a manager,
when someone is come to me anddelivering a ultimatum, or it's
in the spirit of, like Akhtarwas saying at the beginning,
it's not we're on the same team.
It's more of an us versus them.
That just changes the natureof the conversation and
(41:48):
I think puts everyone ontheir back heel and I don't
know that's what you want.
I think coming into it, beingcollaborative, being willing to
get creative about what thosesolutions are gonna be is going
to put everyone at ease andthen is probably a quicker path
towards you getting some successin the conversation, whether
that's monetary or otherwise.
So it's a lot to do withhow you approach that.
(42:10):
I think just being veryprepared for what that's
going to mean afterwards.
Again, just get veryclear on your intentions.
Mukhtar Kadiri (42:18):
Just to add to what Pam and Elaina said, like
one of the, I think one thingthat has really helped me is
always addressing the elephant.
How this came up for you.
Okay, I don't want 'em to thinkthis extend that exercise.
What else do you thinkwill come up for them?
What are some of the fears?
And Chad can verygood with this.
So just name the elephant,like address all of that.
So whatever you thinkthat they're gonna think,
(42:39):
I'm not trying to leave.
I'm really happy here.
All of that, just namethat and express that.
And I think that, that reallyhelps you to communicate well.
Pam Butkowski (42:47):
Yeah, I think the biggest thing
that maybe we haven't talkedabout much and now feels
like the right time beforewe close really understand
what you're asking for.
If you're asking for a raiseand you don't get it, then
what, what is your next option?
Do you need to startlooking for something else?
And the answer might bedifferent for everyone, right?
Like sometimes you'll wanna ifit's a no, you'll wanna say,
(43:11):
what does the runway look like?
What could I have donedifferently to make this a yes?
Today, it's okay to askthose questions, right?
If you, and I can't saythis directly enough, if
you tell your organizationthat if you don't get a
raise, you are leaving andthen you don't leave, that
will be your reputation.
The worst thing you can do inany request for compensation
(43:31):
is make empty threats.
That's not helpful to you.
It's not helpful to the org.
We've hammered on this, andso I'll just drive it home, be
collaborative, work together tofind a solution that gets both
you and your org to a placethat makes everybody happy.
Don't make empty threatsand don't come in defensive.
It's not gonna end well.
Kelsey Alpaio (43:49):
I love that.
I think that's a greatplace to end here.
Thank you to our panelists forvolunteering your time today.
Panelists, this was somuch fun, so insightful.
So thank you for sharing yourexpertise with us here today.
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