June 6, 2024 • 22 mins
Prepare to have your entrepreneurial mindset revolutionized as we introduce you to the marriage of design thinking and strategic innovation. Imagine starting your product journey with a 'cupcake'—a delectable morsel of customer delight, rather than settling for the bare-bones functionality of a typical 'minimum viable product.' This episode guides you through an Agile-inspired 'cake roadmap' that promises to sprinkle delight at every development stage, serving up practical advice for remote collaboration and iterative testing, designed to steer your ventures toward a mouthwatering product-market fit.
As the tide of competition rises, we sail into the uncharted waters of the Blue Ocean Strategy, alongside design thinking tenets, to discover unspoiled market territories. You'll glean insights into how companies, like Uber, have navigated away from the bloodied 'red oceans' of fierce rivalry, toward the serene 'blue' where untapped client needs await. We'll also celebrate the genius of inclusive design, taking cues from OXO's Good Grips and Roku's simplified remote, to showcase how products tailored to extreme user needs can result in universally loved solutions.
Finally, we explore the democratic revolution transforming the creative process within today's design thinking framework. We discuss how a chorus of diverse voices, from end users to cross-discipline experts, can harmonize to foster innovation beyond the capabilities of a solitary visionary. This collective symphony of perspectives not only enriches the design process but also amplifies personal growth, nudging us toward a consciousness revolution powered by technological and communicative leaps. Join us for a journey that promises to be as enlightening as it is thought-provoking, packed with actions you can apply directly to your next creative endeavor.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicholas Jayanty (00:00):
You might have different points of view, but
we're not separate.
Design thinking democratizesthat creative process to allow
those different points of viewto work collectively and
together in order to achieve anoutcome, as opposed to a single
individual identifying the hilland then executing against it.
And when you have thatdiversity of voice in the room,
you get better outcomes, you getbetter solutions, you get
things that are morerepresentative of the community
(00:22):
that you wish to serve.
John Kundtz (00:31):
Last thing of this piece of this is, obviously
we've started it sort of as at aconvergent point, we've
diverged, we've now convergedand then we sort of now diverged
again, because we've got allthese ideas and all these
capabilities, we've matched themup and we're prioritized.
Now, as an entrepreneur andeven as a customer, you can't
(00:52):
implement everything at once,especially in something that's
new and transformational thannobody's really ever done before
.
So we came up with this idea ofdeveloping this, what I call
the Agile-based roadmap or theAgile-based strategic plan, to
help identify those value props.
So the idea is, all thosethings that are really important
(01:13):
to the customer and match ourimmediate capability so they end
up in the top left hand corner,right hand corner are what we
want to focus on.
So I love this concept anddesign thinking and I think
because, if you'd expound uponthis whole idea of developing
the cake roadmap the cupcake,the birthday cake, the wedding
(01:35):
cake- Absolutely, john.
Nicholas Jayanty (01:37):
So a lot of times we'll hear the word MVP
minimum viable product and Ithink what this activity does is
it reframes what the minimumviable product is, to think of
it more as the minimumdelightful experience right,
because the minimum viableproduct is often driven by
what's on the truck, what'sfeasible today.
(01:57):
Well, the minimum delightfulexperience is what's the
smallest piece of value that wecan deliver to the user right
now, right?
So when we talk about the kindof cake roadmap, right, what's
that cupcake?
Right, if the big vision forthe whole business is this,
right, and that's the weddingcake.
You know the whole shebang.
You know it's a little fuzzy.
You know, maybe we don't quiteunderstand what this wedding
(02:17):
cake looks like.
You know, maybe we're not surehow many candles, how many
layers, if it's sprinkles orfondant, you know icing, we're
not really sure.
But we know we have kind of ageneral sense.
But you know the famous, youknow how do you eat an elephant,
you know, is one bite at a time.
It's like, well, what's thatminimum cupcake that still has
that yummy taste of that weddingcake, but small enough and
(02:38):
yummy enough that if we justgive that to an end user they'll
be happy They'll say give memore, what's next?
And so the activity of scopingyour roadmap around, this idea
of what's the minimum delightfulexperience, what's the follow
on, kind of experiences, allowsyou to scope that project in a
way that you, you know you'reminimizing the collateral damage
of a failed experiment, right,but keeping it small.
(03:01):
You're delivering somethingdelicious but also minimizing,
you know, the damage, thecollateral damage, if that
cupcake maybe isn't the right,is the right piece, Maybe you,
you know, the mix isn't quiteperfect, but you've at least
scoped something that you candeliver Ideally.
It has the value that your userexpects, but it's small enough
that, if it's not, you can makeanother cupcake really quickly
you as an entrepreneur on astartup, you don't have time to
(03:23):
build and sell the wedding cake.
John Kundtz (03:25):
You people don't even know if they want to get
married yet, right, they don'teven know if they want to date
yet.
So the idea of buildingcupcakes help you, and so this
is what came up with.
This idea is this is how youyou know, you come up with
cupcakes, you go test them andby doing this iteration of
convergence, divergence,divergence, convergence,
(03:46):
divergence, convergence, right,we've converged on our cupcake.
And now in, if you go throughthe step, I would some eyes that
your odds of having good marketfit have increased dramatically
.
You know, by the way, itdoesn't cost a lot to do this.
In fact, in today's world,virtually is.
That's why the last picture onthis slide is you know, nicholas
(04:07):
and I used to travel all overthe world.
We've been to Germany, we'vebeen to London, I've been to
South Africa, we've been HongKong or Singapore doing these
workshops and working with ourclients through this process,
and now we can do it allvirtually.
Me, we had to because we're all.
I mean, I haven't been on atravel for business in over
(04:28):
eighteen months.
So, as we wrap this section up,the message is, you know, by
the way, we will put a link inor will give some capability.
If anybody is listening orwatching, wants this sort of
this sort of five step processfor market fit, better market
fit, we're happy to share it.
But but that's sort of why Iwanted to tie the experience
(04:49):
that Nicholas has as a designerto the work that you on and I
are doing with withentrepreneurs and start up.
Nicholas Jayanty (04:56):
So that's that section you know, and just to
add to that, john, like when Ithink about what I would do if I
was starting a business today,I think I like what are five
cupcakes that are kind of closeto my wedding cake you know,
they're kind of in the vein ofmy wedding cake and find the
cheapest way to figure out ifpeople care about it, like, and
(05:17):
that would be in a standardprocess.
A standard kind of practice,like with each business I would
launch is like what are my fivecupcakes each month until I kind
of which my way to productmarket fit?
John Kundtz (05:30):
Yeah, and that actually goes into the next up
sort of thing I want to justpick your brain about and I'm
gonna start with another storyagain if you guys don't mind,
but it's just a term actuallythat you introduced to me to is
it's a and a fi, find a need andfill it.
Now I want to tie that back toa book that, if every
(05:53):
entrepreneur listening to thissection hasn't read, it's called
the blue ocean strategy and Iwant to give an example and I
want to try to show you howNicholas and I have sort of
taken the concept of working andselling in a blue ocean and how
we've applied design thinkingto sort of enhance that for
anybody that's listening to thisdefinitely go read that book.
Jan Almasy (06:14):
Like what?
If we're posting the video,you're gonna see me doing the
raise, the roof motion.
That book is phenomenal andlike I'm getting my notebook out
to Take notes on this sectionspecifically.
John Kundtz (06:23):
So these, these, these charts obviously will be
available, the video, but I'mhappy to share them with others.
So this actually sort of tiesinto what we just talked about,
right?
This, this idea of mycapability, is not to start up,
what do I sell, basically, whatis my product or service do?
And then, on the other line, isthis idea of the prospects,
(06:46):
needs and right in the lastsection we talked about how we
have Hi needs and highcapability, we have a good
market fit, but what reallyhappens in the world today is
our prospect needs are presentedby these red dots and our
Capability is, on the other,access right.
And what happens is that'swhere so many people go in and
(07:08):
sort of try to do this featurefunction selling right.
Here's your need, here's mycapability, here's my need, is
your capability right?
So it's this idea of back andforth, back and forth.
What I like to say is that ifyou those of you that are my age
and watch the lost in space,it's like when the robot would
go danger will warbans anddanger, danger.
(07:29):
You are now swimming in the redocean.
In other words, you are just ina feature function battle with
a hundred other Companies and ahundred other product or
services and you're just gonnabeat your head down on on cost.
And so what most sales peopledo Is they go well, I'm gonna
upsell, I'm gonna tell you aboutthe value ads.
(07:50):
So they start talking aboutmore capability the client
doesn't, theory, doesn't, hasn'tsaid they need.
Well, unfortunately, theprospect of the buyer perceives
that is increased costs andcomplexity, which of course,
slows your deal down.
That was the exact problem wehad after we bought the company.
We started talking about allthe red dots and all the green
(08:12):
dots and all of a sudden theclient's going holy crap, this
is gonna be really expensive andit's gonna take me forever to
deploy and implement.
So I would argue also, thequestion is how do I get out of
this red ocean and into the blueocean?
And so the concept is this issort of a sort of basic but, but
, but sort of.
And then the necklace youactually alluded to it when we
(08:33):
started up, which was sort ofcool because we had rehearsed
this.
It's how do you Uncover theclients of the prospects,
unconsidered needs, right?
So it's how do you know, how doyou identify problems and needs
the prospect does not even knowthey have, which is a classic
example of being a disruptor.
Right it's I'm met.
(08:53):
You know uber is probably thegreatest one who you know,
whoever thought that you wouldwant to, you know, order a car
service from a total stranger Onan app, right and disrupt the
taxi cab.
So the taxicabs were offfighting in this red ocean.
You know it came up and figureout there are a whole bunch of
things that the, that the me isa drive, is a rider.
(09:17):
Didn't even know I needed, butonce I realized that and they
showed it to me, it opened upthe blue ocean.
Nicholas Jayanty (09:23):
I love this.
I think one of my favorite youknow, product design case
studies to illustrate this issome of the work that I also
your kitchen come kitchenproduct company.
They make good grips.
I'm sure people are familiarwith them and what made that
story so interesting Is thatthey knew they had a target
(09:43):
audience, right, target targetsegments that they're going
after Marketing standpoint.
But from a product designstandpoint, what they said was
we're gonna design for the enduser that has the greatest
impairment.
I'm using their hands, focus onsenior citizens, focus on
people with arthritis, and we'regonna design our product to
(10:05):
meet their needs.
And so by picking that extremeuser that's often not considered
right, I'm designing theirproduct for them.
They're able to satisfy theneeds of their entire segment.
So my starting kind of in theextreme, on that edge, a person,
a group of people that's oftenignored.
You know, our senior citizens,senior community are often
ignored when hipsters are makingtechnology.
(10:27):
There's this whole world ofunmet need that you know I
tapped into has been incrediblysuccessful result I mean, right
now we have the you know theiphone right?
One question I ask myself isyou know, I observed my
grandmother using, using youriphone and all she does the
navigate is press the backbutton.
She picked something, she goesdown a tunnel and if it's the
(10:48):
wrong tunnel, she's back, back,back, back, back, starts at the
top and then goes down again andthis is how her interaction
behavior.
But Nobody's designing aninterface that's gonna support
that behavior right, thoseinterfaces aren't out there.
No one's designing phones, noone's dividing devices for these
for these people.
No one's designing devices forchildren, right?
We're just trying to find.
(11:08):
Like you know, right now, ifyou look at the design of our
technology, it's it's.
It's like those crazy or it'slike those remote controls that
your cable company gives youwith like 200 buttons.
It's like there's all thefeatures and, like you know,
apple came out and made like twobuttons and three buttons.
It was really easy to use oneof my favorite examples.
John Kundtz (11:26):
There's the cable company remote and if you've
ever had, if you're bought aRoku TV and you look at the Roku
remote, they designed it thehand, the grip that you could.
I mean they did a lot of designand like six buttons on it.
Nicholas Jayanty (11:41):
Yeah, but.
But you don't get there untilyou start thinking about the
users with unmet needs or theusers that weren't considered.
You know there's extremes, thefringe, like you know I think
one of my favorite books, it'slike by Chip and Dan Heath,
called decisive.
You know they say there's likefour horsemen of bad
decision-making and one of themis narrow framing.
That's one of the big ones,which is I'm only looking at
(12:01):
this tunnel, I haven't expandedthe aperture and thought beyond
kind of that red ocean in thefringes of the blue ocean and
find that opportunity there.
Jan Almasy (12:10):
Yeah, I think One thing that I'm gonna
Double-click on as far asprocess goes, I think we're
gonna like this episode's coinedphrase is gonna be double-click
because we've all used at thispoint.
So we, we do a lot of researchinto Disney, you know, when we
first started, when we firststarted apex, and he has this
interesting thing like fourlevels of detail, right, and he
(12:32):
would also force the Imagineerswhen they were coming up with
ideas.
It's like you have to be ableto still this down to one
sentence If, like, I don't careif it's a new door hinge or if
it's a new ride for the park,one sentence as to why, like, we
need to do this, right, what isthe value prop in that one
sentence.
And I find it interestingbecause some of the people that
(12:54):
I talked to, at least in thearea that I'm in now I'm finally
expanding outside of theMidwest and meeting a bunch of
different people but when wefirst started, especially in
Kobe, but we, what we wereencountering when we were
talking to all these people is avery, very anxious mindset when
we started to take them into,that first diverge, right, it's
like they get all of this influxof ideas and then they're like,
oh my god, like I don't knowwhat I'm gonna do with all of
(13:15):
this.
But what I found fascinating isactually, the more time you're
able to be disciplined in thatspace where there's a lot of
different ideas, the simpler theoutcome becomes.
You know and like John justmade a great point with Roku
it's like the more time youspend in the quote-unquote
anxiety of the unknown, you endup with six buttons instead of
(13:38):
200.
It's really really easy To saylet's put all of the features on
the remote.
It is exponentially moredifficult to figure out which
six buttons I'm gonna cuss here.
So what six buttons?
People actually give a shitabout right.
Nicholas Jayanty (13:56):
Yep, yep, it's easy to put out the kitchen
sink into the product.
It's hard to prioritize.
People like to prioritize arisk averse.
They don't want to be the onethat made the decision, you know
.
So there's a lot of reasons whypeople have difficulty picking
those six buttons.
Dude is so important and a lotof design is about reducing that
complexity.
(14:16):
Right, it's.
A lot of design is removingstuff, like we'll see these
interface that are designed byengineers and we're like lose
that, lose that, lose that, losethat.
Why do we need this?
What's the user trying to dowith this page?
Okay, that's the priority.
Let's remove all the fluff fromthis page and only focus on the
key interaction that the usercares about in this context and
remove the noise right.
John Kundtz (14:38):
I want to give you the last word, nicholas, on
something that you brought upwith me, and I'm not sure I even
understand it.
So I'm sort of looking forwardit, and you had mentioned
something about democratizingthe creative process, and so I
it really caught my eye.
I mean, we had a fewdiscussions on it, but I'd love
you to just sort of expound onthat for us.
Nicholas Jayanty (14:59):
Yeah, it actually dovetails really nice
of what we were just talkingabout.
Right, like people makingdecisions right, how do those
decisions get made?
And you know, for designthinking right for the longest
time, you know, going back tothat kind of great person or
great man theory of history,there's this vision area.
There's a tour, you know, thathas this mega opus, vision,
(15:20):
magnum opus, vision, and we'reall just kind of actors in his
show and we're trying to help.
When we democratize the creativeprocess, it's very disruptive
because it allows a lot morediversity into that creative
process.
So, instead of just one personkind of having a software, a
(15:40):
vision for a software, you knowit's the difference between
making a product and a hundredmillion dollar art project right
, and an art project is a singlevisionary kind of directing.
You know the Banksy model orBanksy's the name, but there's
200 artists making his workright.
Versus an effort where youdemocratize the creative process
(16:01):
, you're bringing in your endusers, you're bringing in
different subject matter experts, you're bringing in a lot of
different points of view toreally vet that idea before you
invest in developing it.
So what design thinking reallyallows people to do is to
collaborate in a structured way,bring a diverse point of view
to those collaborativeactivities and look at the
(16:24):
problem through the same lens,with that kind of difference
that they bring.
You know, we might be differentbut we're not separate.
We might have different pointsof view but we're not separate.
And design thinkingdemocratizes that creative
process to allow those differentpoints of view to work
collectively and together inorder to achieve an outcome, as
opposed to a single individualidentifying the hill and then
(16:44):
executing against it right.
And when you have thatdiversity of voice in the room,
you get better outcomes, you getbetter solutions, you get
things that are morerepresentative of the community
that you wish to serve.
John Kundtz (16:56):
Well said, If anybody liked what they saw
today, I'm happy to share thedisruptors five steps, the
better market fit chart, andI've also prepared the
disruptors the design thinkingprimer which I'm happy to share.
And you know we can work in theshow notes or reach out
(17:18):
directly with direct message tome on LinkedIn or Twitter or
something.
But hopefully you found thisenjoyable.
Nicholas, you and I couldprobably talk for another two
hours.
Yon, I'm gonna let you have thelast word.
Jan Almasy (17:32):
What if I chop liver over here?
I feel like I could hang outfor two more hours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Kundtz (17:37):
Well, no, but Nicholas and I.
You know, I bring on people.
You guys go way back yeah so,but you know what I always say,
yon, you're sort of my brotherfrom a different mother because
we sort of came from the samepart of the world.
But Nicholas and I aredefinitely like brothers from a
different mother and we he hasmade me like probably whichever
brain is, the creative side heis definitely got me trying to
(17:59):
be more creative and I think I'mhelping him look at how to
apply all these cool things hedoes and take it outside into
the real world and talk topeople that actually want to buy
stuff.
So I appreciate, yon, youhaving us on today and it was
been very good.
Yeah, namaste, as we used saidto my last guest, who was anyway
(18:19):
, so I'm not ever yeah.
So, yon, anything else you wantto?
Well, conclude as the host.
Jan Almasy (18:26):
I just I just want to say how appreciative I am of
being able to be around thesetypes of conversations, right.
So so I mean, like I kind ofwent off on that original
tangent where I'm just likefascinated with the, the
neurology and the biology behindwhat you're doing right, and so
making this transition andmeeting John, you know, john
(18:48):
kind of put it lightly where hewas, like you know, I taught
Yonis for something the empathymap, and the reason he is
because I was trying to come upwith a physical business model
that would not work, and he waslike this is not bueno, let's,
let's take you down a differentrabbit hole before you just
waste a whole bunch of time ormoney developing something that
is not going to fit the marketright.
So, as my first lesson, likecoming up on two plus years ago
(19:09):
now and I've been obsessed withit ever since so, understanding
that there are all of theseminds, you know, working on the
intimate connection betweenpsychology, sales, marketing,
you know, creating safe spaces,questions, games, all of these
different things to get humansto interact better, I have this,
this thing, that I'll just kindof you know leave at the end of
(19:31):
the episode here that we'regoing through a consciousness
revolution right now.
You know, like the human, thehuman body, the human brain,
that we've gone through thesestages.
If you like, look at historywhere, you know, we had the
bubonic plague and then theRenaissance, and then we had the
flu of 1918 and we had theroaring 20s, you know, and now
(19:52):
we've had COVID and technologygot introduced and people are
adopting technology, they'regetting used to technology and
they're, you know,instantaneously communicating.
And now there's a group of rena,aspiring Renaissance men I'll
call us, you know that arelooking at how do we advance
humanity inside of this latestcontext, and I want to make sure
(20:15):
that the guests that arelistening really understand the
gravity of the types ofconversations like these that
are going on.
It's that this is not just, youknow, revolutionizing a process
.
This is humans communicating,completely democratized at scale
.
We're seeing crazy crap happenin the stock market because of
Reddit and 4chan and Twitter andall this instantaneous
(20:36):
communication.
We're seeing crazy stuff happenin innovation, to John's point.
The speed of disruption hasdrastically increased over the
last 30 years and now we'retrying to figure out how to slow
people down again and get themto communicate with each other.
You know, and and using all ofthese different triggers.
So, for anybody that's listening, you know if you're listening
right now, you've made it allthe way to the end.
(20:57):
Go back to the beginning twodays from now and re-listen to
the episode, because I guaranteethere'll be things that you
think of when you give yourbrain that chance to rest and
process, things that you'll pickup from the episode, because I
know for I'm sitting hererecording it and I'm gonna be
excited, while I'm post editingit, to listen again and pick up
on all of these, these ideas.
So thank you both for allowingme to you know kind of host the
(21:19):
party.
I guess in a way to, so tospeak yeah, my pleasure well and
for everybody that's listening.
You know, we'll make sure thatwe put stuff in the, in the show
notes, in the descriptions and,and, like John said, for right
now, the best way to try to geta hold of any of the, you know,
materials that were used on thepodcast probably just send me a
direct message on LinkedIn or goahead and add John on LinkedIn.
(21:39):
John, do you want to let themknow how to spell your name so
that they can type that in?
John Kundtz (21:44):
sure it's up.
Last name is K U N.
D like Delta, t like tango, zlike Zulu, so beautiful and then
I'm young, all musty, it'syoung.
Jan Almasy (21:55):
It looks like Jan, jan, you know all musty, alma SY
.
And then, nicholas, do you havea LinkedIn as well?
Nicholas Jayanty (22:03):
yeah, it's a.
I believe it's Nicholas Jayauntie J A Y A N T.
Jan Almasy (22:07):
Y beautiful.
You guys want to know any more?
Go ahead and follow us onLinkedIn.
And until next time in anotherepisode of the disruptor, have a
great day, guys.
You might have different points of view, but
we're not separate.
Design thinking democratizesthat creative process to allow
those different points of viewto work collectively and
together in order to achieve anoutcome, as opposed to a single
individual identifying the hilland then executing against it.
And when you have thatdiversity of voice in the room,
you get better outcomes, you getbetter solutions, you get
things that are morerepresentative of the community
(00:22):
that you wish to serve.
John Kundtz (00:31):
Last thing of this piece of this is, obviously
we've started it sort of as at aconvergent point, we've
diverged, we've now convergedand then we sort of now diverged
again, because we've got allthese ideas and all these
capabilities, we've matched themup and we're prioritized.
Now, as an entrepreneur andeven as a customer, you can't
(00:52):
implement everything at once,especially in something that's
new and transformational thannobody's really ever done before
.
So we came up with this idea ofdeveloping this, what I call
the Agile-based roadmap or theAgile-based strategic plan, to
help identify those value props.
So the idea is, all thosethings that are really important
(01:13):
to the customer and match ourimmediate capability so they end
up in the top left hand corner,right hand corner are what we
want to focus on.
So I love this concept anddesign thinking and I think
because, if you'd expound uponthis whole idea of developing
the cake roadmap the cupcake,the birthday cake, the wedding
(01:35):
cake- Absolutely, john.
Nicholas Jayanty (01:37):
So a lot of times we'll hear the word MVP
minimum viable product and Ithink what this activity does is
it reframes what the minimumviable product is, to think of
it more as the minimumdelightful experience right,
because the minimum viableproduct is often driven by
what's on the truck, what'sfeasible today.
(01:57):
Well, the minimum delightfulexperience is what's the
smallest piece of value that wecan deliver to the user right
now, right?
So when we talk about the kindof cake roadmap, right, what's
that cupcake?
Right, if the big vision forthe whole business is this,
right, and that's the weddingcake.
You know the whole shebang.
You know it's a little fuzzy.
You know, maybe we don't quiteunderstand what this wedding
(02:17):
cake looks like.
You know, maybe we're not surehow many candles, how many
layers, if it's sprinkles orfondant, you know icing, we're
not really sure.
But we know we have kind of ageneral sense.
But you know the famous, youknow how do you eat an elephant,
you know, is one bite at a time.
It's like, well, what's thatminimum cupcake that still has
that yummy taste of that weddingcake, but small enough and
(02:38):
yummy enough that if we justgive that to an end user they'll
be happy They'll say give memore, what's next?
And so the activity of scopingyour roadmap around, this idea
of what's the minimum delightfulexperience, what's the follow
on, kind of experiences, allowsyou to scope that project in a
way that you, you know you'reminimizing the collateral damage
of a failed experiment, right,but keeping it small.
(03:01):
You're delivering somethingdelicious but also minimizing,
you know, the damage, thecollateral damage, if that
cupcake maybe isn't the right,is the right piece, Maybe you,
you know, the mix isn't quiteperfect, but you've at least
scoped something that you candeliver Ideally.
It has the value that your userexpects, but it's small enough
that, if it's not, you can makeanother cupcake really quickly
you as an entrepreneur on astartup, you don't have time to
(03:23):
build and sell the wedding cake.
John Kundtz (03:25):
You people don't even know if they want to get
married yet, right, they don'teven know if they want to date
yet.
So the idea of buildingcupcakes help you, and so this
is what came up with.
This idea is this is how youyou know, you come up with
cupcakes, you go test them andby doing this iteration of
convergence, divergence,divergence, convergence,
(03:46):
divergence, convergence, right,we've converged on our cupcake.
And now in, if you go throughthe step, I would some eyes that
your odds of having good marketfit have increased dramatically
.
You know, by the way, itdoesn't cost a lot to do this.
In fact, in today's world,virtually is.
That's why the last picture onthis slide is you know, nicholas
(04:07):
and I used to travel all overthe world.
We've been to Germany, we'vebeen to London, I've been to
South Africa, we've been HongKong or Singapore doing these
workshops and working with ourclients through this process,
and now we can do it allvirtually.
Me, we had to because we're all.
I mean, I haven't been on atravel for business in over
(04:28):
eighteen months.
So, as we wrap this section up,the message is, you know, by
the way, we will put a link inor will give some capability.
If anybody is listening orwatching, wants this sort of
this sort of five step processfor market fit, better market
fit, we're happy to share it.
But but that's sort of why Iwanted to tie the experience
(04:49):
that Nicholas has as a designerto the work that you on and I
are doing with withentrepreneurs and start up.
Nicholas Jayanty (04:56):
So that's that section you know, and just to
add to that, john, like when Ithink about what I would do if I
was starting a business today,I think I like what are five
cupcakes that are kind of closeto my wedding cake you know,
they're kind of in the vein ofmy wedding cake and find the
cheapest way to figure out ifpeople care about it, like, and
(05:17):
that would be in a standardprocess.
A standard kind of practice,like with each business I would
launch is like what are my fivecupcakes each month until I kind
of which my way to productmarket fit?
John Kundtz (05:30):
Yeah, and that actually goes into the next up
sort of thing I want to justpick your brain about and I'm
gonna start with another storyagain if you guys don't mind,
but it's just a term actuallythat you introduced to me to is
it's a and a fi, find a need andfill it.
Now I want to tie that back toa book that, if every
(05:53):
entrepreneur listening to thissection hasn't read, it's called
the blue ocean strategy and Iwant to give an example and I
want to try to show you howNicholas and I have sort of
taken the concept of working andselling in a blue ocean and how
we've applied design thinkingto sort of enhance that for
anybody that's listening to thisdefinitely go read that book.
Jan Almasy (06:14):
Like what?
If we're posting the video,you're gonna see me doing the
raise, the roof motion.
That book is phenomenal andlike I'm getting my notebook out
to Take notes on this sectionspecifically.
John Kundtz (06:23):
So these, these, these charts obviously will be
available, the video, but I'mhappy to share them with others.
So this actually sort of tiesinto what we just talked about,
right?
This, this idea of mycapability, is not to start up,
what do I sell, basically, whatis my product or service do?
And then, on the other line, isthis idea of the prospects,
(06:46):
needs and right in the lastsection we talked about how we
have Hi needs and highcapability, we have a good
market fit, but what reallyhappens in the world today is
our prospect needs are presentedby these red dots and our
Capability is, on the other,access right.
And what happens is that'swhere so many people go in and
(07:08):
sort of try to do this featurefunction selling right.
Here's your need, here's mycapability, here's my need, is
your capability right?
So it's this idea of back andforth, back and forth.
What I like to say is that ifyou those of you that are my age
and watch the lost in space,it's like when the robot would
go danger will warbans anddanger, danger.
(07:29):
You are now swimming in the redocean.
In other words, you are just ina feature function battle with
a hundred other Companies and ahundred other product or
services and you're just gonnabeat your head down on on cost.
And so what most sales peopledo Is they go well, I'm gonna
upsell, I'm gonna tell you aboutthe value ads.
(07:50):
So they start talking aboutmore capability the client
doesn't, theory, doesn't, hasn'tsaid they need.
Well, unfortunately, theprospect of the buyer perceives
that is increased costs andcomplexity, which of course,
slows your deal down.
That was the exact problem wehad after we bought the company.
We started talking about allthe red dots and all the green
(08:12):
dots and all of a sudden theclient's going holy crap, this
is gonna be really expensive andit's gonna take me forever to
deploy and implement.
So I would argue also, thequestion is how do I get out of
this red ocean and into the blueocean?
And so the concept is this issort of a sort of basic but, but
, but sort of.
And then the necklace youactually alluded to it when we
(08:33):
started up, which was sort ofcool because we had rehearsed
this.
It's how do you Uncover theclients of the prospects,
unconsidered needs, right?
So it's how do you know, how doyou identify problems and needs
the prospect does not even knowthey have, which is a classic
example of being a disruptor.
Right it's I'm met.
(08:53):
You know uber is probably thegreatest one who you know,
whoever thought that you wouldwant to, you know, order a car
service from a total stranger Onan app, right and disrupt the
taxi cab.
So the taxicabs were offfighting in this red ocean.
You know it came up and figureout there are a whole bunch of
things that the, that the me isa drive, is a rider.
(09:17):
Didn't even know I needed, butonce I realized that and they
showed it to me, it opened upthe blue ocean.
Nicholas Jayanty (09:23):
I love this.
I think one of my favorite youknow, product design case
studies to illustrate this issome of the work that I also
your kitchen come kitchenproduct company.
They make good grips.
I'm sure people are familiarwith them and what made that
story so interesting Is thatthey knew they had a target
(09:43):
audience, right, target targetsegments that they're going
after Marketing standpoint.
But from a product designstandpoint, what they said was
we're gonna design for the enduser that has the greatest
impairment.
I'm using their hands, focus onsenior citizens, focus on
people with arthritis, and we'regonna design our product to
(10:05):
meet their needs.
And so by picking that extremeuser that's often not considered
right, I'm designing theirproduct for them.
They're able to satisfy theneeds of their entire segment.
So my starting kind of in theextreme, on that edge, a person,
a group of people that's oftenignored.
You know, our senior citizens,senior community are often
ignored when hipsters are makingtechnology.
(10:27):
There's this whole world ofunmet need that you know I
tapped into has been incrediblysuccessful result I mean, right
now we have the you know theiphone right?
One question I ask myself isyou know, I observed my
grandmother using, using youriphone and all she does the
navigate is press the backbutton.
She picked something, she goesdown a tunnel and if it's the
(10:48):
wrong tunnel, she's back, back,back, back, back, starts at the
top and then goes down again andthis is how her interaction
behavior.
But Nobody's designing aninterface that's gonna support
that behavior right, thoseinterfaces aren't out there.
No one's designing phones, noone's dividing devices for these
for these people.
No one's designing devices forchildren, right?
We're just trying to find.
(11:08):
Like you know, right now, ifyou look at the design of our
technology, it's it's.
It's like those crazy or it'slike those remote controls that
your cable company gives youwith like 200 buttons.
It's like there's all thefeatures and, like you know,
apple came out and made like twobuttons and three buttons.
It was really easy to use oneof my favorite examples.
John Kundtz (11:26):
There's the cable company remote and if you've
ever had, if you're bought aRoku TV and you look at the Roku
remote, they designed it thehand, the grip that you could.
I mean they did a lot of designand like six buttons on it.
Nicholas Jayanty (11:41):
Yeah, but.
But you don't get there untilyou start thinking about the
users with unmet needs or theusers that weren't considered.
You know there's extremes, thefringe, like you know I think
one of my favorite books, it'slike by Chip and Dan Heath,
called decisive.
You know they say there's likefour horsemen of bad
decision-making and one of themis narrow framing.
That's one of the big ones,which is I'm only looking at
(12:01):
this tunnel, I haven't expandedthe aperture and thought beyond
kind of that red ocean in thefringes of the blue ocean and
find that opportunity there.
Jan Almasy (12:10):
Yeah, I think One thing that I'm gonna
Double-click on as far asprocess goes, I think we're
gonna like this episode's coinedphrase is gonna be double-click
because we've all used at thispoint.
So we, we do a lot of researchinto Disney, you know, when we
first started, when we firststarted apex, and he has this
interesting thing like fourlevels of detail, right, and he
(12:32):
would also force the Imagineerswhen they were coming up with
ideas.
It's like you have to be ableto still this down to one
sentence If, like, I don't careif it's a new door hinge or if
it's a new ride for the park,one sentence as to why, like, we
need to do this, right, what isthe value prop in that one
sentence.
And I find it interestingbecause some of the people that
(12:54):
I talked to, at least in thearea that I'm in now I'm finally
expanding outside of theMidwest and meeting a bunch of
different people but when wefirst started, especially in
Kobe, but we, what we wereencountering when we were
talking to all these people is avery, very anxious mindset when
we started to take them into,that first diverge, right, it's
like they get all of this influxof ideas and then they're like,
oh my god, like I don't knowwhat I'm gonna do with all of
(13:15):
this.
But what I found fascinating isactually, the more time you're
able to be disciplined in thatspace where there's a lot of
different ideas, the simpler theoutcome becomes.
You know and like John justmade a great point with Roku
it's like the more time youspend in the quote-unquote
anxiety of the unknown, you endup with six buttons instead of
(13:38):
200.
It's really really easy To saylet's put all of the features on
the remote.
It is exponentially moredifficult to figure out which
six buttons I'm gonna cuss here.
So what six buttons?
People actually give a shitabout right.
Nicholas Jayanty (13:56):
Yep, yep, it's easy to put out the kitchen
sink into the product.
It's hard to prioritize.
People like to prioritize arisk averse.
They don't want to be the onethat made the decision, you know
.
So there's a lot of reasons whypeople have difficulty picking
those six buttons.
Dude is so important and a lotof design is about reducing that
complexity.
(14:16):
Right, it's.
A lot of design is removingstuff, like we'll see these
interface that are designed byengineers and we're like lose
that, lose that, lose that, losethat.
Why do we need this?
What's the user trying to dowith this page?
Okay, that's the priority.
Let's remove all the fluff fromthis page and only focus on the
key interaction that the usercares about in this context and
remove the noise right.
John Kundtz (14:38):
I want to give you the last word, nicholas, on
something that you brought upwith me, and I'm not sure I even
understand it.
So I'm sort of looking forwardit, and you had mentioned
something about democratizingthe creative process, and so I
it really caught my eye.
I mean, we had a fewdiscussions on it, but I'd love
you to just sort of expound onthat for us.
Nicholas Jayanty (14:59):
Yeah, it actually dovetails really nice
of what we were just talkingabout.
Right, like people makingdecisions right, how do those
decisions get made?
And you know, for designthinking right for the longest
time, you know, going back tothat kind of great person or
great man theory of history,there's this vision area.
There's a tour, you know, thathas this mega opus, vision,
(15:20):
magnum opus, vision, and we'reall just kind of actors in his
show and we're trying to help.
When we democratize the creativeprocess, it's very disruptive
because it allows a lot morediversity into that creative
process.
So, instead of just one personkind of having a software, a
(15:40):
vision for a software, you knowit's the difference between
making a product and a hundredmillion dollar art project right
, and an art project is a singlevisionary kind of directing.
You know the Banksy model orBanksy's the name, but there's
200 artists making his workright.
Versus an effort where youdemocratize the creative process
(16:01):
, you're bringing in your endusers, you're bringing in
different subject matter experts, you're bringing in a lot of
different points of view toreally vet that idea before you
invest in developing it.
So what design thinking reallyallows people to do is to
collaborate in a structured way,bring a diverse point of view
to those collaborativeactivities and look at the
(16:24):
problem through the same lens,with that kind of difference
that they bring.
You know, we might be differentbut we're not separate.
We might have different pointsof view but we're not separate.
And design thinkingdemocratizes that creative
process to allow those differentpoints of view to work
collectively and together inorder to achieve an outcome, as
opposed to a single individualidentifying the hill and then
(16:44):
executing against it right.
And when you have thatdiversity of voice in the room,
you get better outcomes, you getbetter solutions, you get
things that are morerepresentative of the community
that you wish to serve.
John Kundtz (16:56):
Well said, If anybody liked what they saw
today, I'm happy to share thedisruptors five steps, the
better market fit chart, andI've also prepared the
disruptors the design thinkingprimer which I'm happy to share.
And you know we can work in theshow notes or reach out
(17:18):
directly with direct message tome on LinkedIn or Twitter or
something.
But hopefully you found thisenjoyable.
Nicholas, you and I couldprobably talk for another two
hours.
Yon, I'm gonna let you have thelast word.
Jan Almasy (17:32):
What if I chop liver over here?
I feel like I could hang outfor two more hours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
John Kundtz (17:37):
Well, no, but Nicholas and I.
You know, I bring on people.
You guys go way back yeah so,but you know what I always say,
yon, you're sort of my brotherfrom a different mother because
we sort of came from the samepart of the world.
But Nicholas and I aredefinitely like brothers from a
different mother and we he hasmade me like probably whichever
brain is, the creative side heis definitely got me trying to
(17:59):
be more creative and I think I'mhelping him look at how to
apply all these cool things hedoes and take it outside into
the real world and talk topeople that actually want to buy
stuff.
So I appreciate, yon, youhaving us on today and it was
been very good.
Yeah, namaste, as we used saidto my last guest, who was anyway
(18:19):
, so I'm not ever yeah.
So, yon, anything else you wantto?
Well, conclude as the host.
Jan Almasy (18:26):
I just I just want to say how appreciative I am of
being able to be around thesetypes of conversations, right.
So so I mean, like I kind ofwent off on that original
tangent where I'm just likefascinated with the, the
neurology and the biology behindwhat you're doing right, and so
making this transition andmeeting John, you know, john
(18:48):
kind of put it lightly where hewas, like you know, I taught
Yonis for something the empathymap, and the reason he is
because I was trying to come upwith a physical business model
that would not work, and he waslike this is not bueno, let's,
let's take you down a differentrabbit hole before you just
waste a whole bunch of time ormoney developing something that
is not going to fit the marketright.
So, as my first lesson, likecoming up on two plus years ago
(19:09):
now and I've been obsessed withit ever since so, understanding
that there are all of theseminds, you know, working on the
intimate connection betweenpsychology, sales, marketing,
you know, creating safe spaces,questions, games, all of these
different things to get humansto interact better, I have this,
this thing, that I'll just kindof you know leave at the end of
(19:31):
the episode here that we'regoing through a consciousness
revolution right now.
You know, like the human, thehuman body, the human brain,
that we've gone through thesestages.
If you like, look at historywhere, you know, we had the
bubonic plague and then theRenaissance, and then we had the
flu of 1918 and we had theroaring 20s, you know, and now
(19:52):
we've had COVID and technologygot introduced and people are
adopting technology, they'regetting used to technology and
they're, you know,instantaneously communicating.
And now there's a group of rena,aspiring Renaissance men I'll
call us, you know that arelooking at how do we advance
humanity inside of this latestcontext, and I want to make sure
(20:15):
that the guests that arelistening really understand the
gravity of the types ofconversations like these that
are going on.
It's that this is not just, youknow, revolutionizing a process
.
This is humans communicating,completely democratized at scale
.
We're seeing crazy crap happenin the stock market because of
Reddit and 4chan and Twitter andall this instantaneous
(20:36):
communication.
We're seeing crazy stuff happenin innovation, to John's point.
The speed of disruption hasdrastically increased over the
last 30 years and now we'retrying to figure out how to slow
people down again and get themto communicate with each other.
You know, and and using all ofthese different triggers.
So, for anybody that's listening, you know if you're listening
right now, you've made it allthe way to the end.
(20:57):
Go back to the beginning twodays from now and re-listen to
the episode, because I guaranteethere'll be things that you
think of when you give yourbrain that chance to rest and
process, things that you'll pickup from the episode, because I
know for I'm sitting hererecording it and I'm gonna be
excited, while I'm post editingit, to listen again and pick up
on all of these, these ideas.
So thank you both for allowingme to you know kind of host the
(21:19):
party.
I guess in a way to, so tospeak yeah, my pleasure well and
for everybody that's listening.
You know, we'll make sure thatwe put stuff in the, in the show
notes, in the descriptions and,and, like John said, for right
now, the best way to try to geta hold of any of the, you know,
materials that were used on thepodcast probably just send me a
direct message on LinkedIn or goahead and add John on LinkedIn.
(21:39):
John, do you want to let themknow how to spell your name so
that they can type that in?
John Kundtz (21:44):
sure it's up.
Last name is K U N.
D like Delta, t like tango, zlike Zulu, so beautiful and then
I'm young, all musty, it'syoung.
Jan Almasy (21:55):
It looks like Jan, jan, you know all musty, alma SY
.
And then, nicholas, do you havea LinkedIn as well?
Nicholas Jayanty (22:03):
yeah, it's a.
I believe it's Nicholas Jayauntie J A Y A N T.
Jan Almasy (22:07):
Y beautiful.
You guys want to know any more?
Go ahead and follow us onLinkedIn.
And until next time in anotherepisode of the disruptor, have a
great day, guys.
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