Unlocking Justice: Ray Hedden's Fight for Transparency and Fair Sentencing Through Data Innovation (Part 2)

What if the key to a fair and just legal system lies hidden within vast amounts of unexamined data? Join us on the Disruptor Podcast as we sit down with the Honorable Raymond C. Hedden to explore his transformative efforts in the judicial realm. Ray passionately discusses his groundbreaking work on a statewide criminal sentencing database in Ohio, aimed at eradicating implicit biases and ensuring equal treatment for all. This initiative, supported by Ohio Supreme Court justices, promises to bring long-overdue transparency and accountability to the sentencing process.

Throughout our conversation, Ray reflects on the historical context of the past 25 years in the U.S. legal system and the critical need for a comprehensive database to track sentencing disparities. Despite numerous task forces advocating for change, institutional biases have continuously stalled progress. Ray's relentless pursuit of justice and his commitment to integrating data and analytics into judicial practices reveal a path forward for achieving true fairness. This episode is essential listening for anyone passionate about legal reform and the ongoing fight for equal justice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, this is John Kuntz of the Disruptor Podcast.
I had the pleasure, in Augustof 2021, to record a podcast
with the Honorable Raymond CHedden.
I've taken the time to remixthat podcast and republish it in
a three-part series.

(00:21):
Part two will take a deeperdive into the database
initiatives that Ray was workingon as part of his activities.
His attempt to bring data,analytics and insights, fairness
and equality into thesentencing process is something
that he had a passion for, and Ihope you learn about what he

(00:43):
was doing, and I hope you takethe causes that Ray was trying
to work on as a judge andcontinue to move them forward as
part of his legacy.
Again, thanks for listening.

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hope you enjoy the bottom, and every now and then
you need a disruptor to come inand just do this to really get
the beauty that's behind thecurtain.
A disruptor is able to come inand shake things up.
It really allows all of thosebeautiful glittery snowflakes to
reenter the atmosphere and thenthe world is in this beautiful,
blissful renaissance for ashort period of time until it

(01:46):
settles again and anotherdisruptor is required to come in
and shake things up.
So, as far as it comes toshaking things up in the
judicial side of things thelegal entities that we've been
talking about leading up to thiswhat exactly is going on in
this 21st century We've talkedabout?
We're a big show that likes totalk about data, so I'm super
excited for this part of theconversation.

(02:07):
But why don't we start to hiton the database and you can
explain what that is and kind ofexplain how it came about?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Absolutely, thank you .
What's important is to put 2020into a historical context of
almost 25 years in the UnitedStates, but in particular where
I'm sitting on the court dealsin the state of Ohio, where
judges have been parts of blueribbon task forces.

(02:38):
They've been part of manyefforts that are looking at ways
to increase fairness in thejudicial system, ways to
increase people justice, ways toincrease confidence in the
judicial system, and a whole lotof that comes down to that old

(02:58):
adage that how you treat yourleast is really reflective of
what's best, best of what yourwhole society is, and that's
what the judicial system isabout.
And yet, if you look back onwhat I've been able to do and
this is the disruptive elementfor 25 years, there have been

(03:19):
all of these blue ribbon taskforce looking at whether or not
there is a need for a criminalsentencing database.
You would think in the 21stcentury that there isn't already
, that that there's likedatabase that has all of the
sentencing data that would allowfor judges and the public to be
able to look at issues like howlong a sentence is or whatever

(03:42):
the effects of equal justice are.
The whole point is that wedon't have information about
individual felony, about howfelonies are sentenced across
individuals.
We don't know if there's racialbias or implicit bias.
We don't know about howprograms work, like diversion
programs, community control,which is when you're on the

(04:05):
little ankle bracelet, and otherthings like that.
So these kind of things arefundamental to fairness because,
like one person gets onesentence and another person gets
an entirely different sentencefor the same crime, that's just
simply not fair.
That's not the United States.
So I got tired of that.
And in the two years that I'vebeen on the bench, not only have

(04:28):
I had a 100% record as a judge,but I took on this issue head
on by sentence, along with acouple of Supreme Court justices
now the chief justice of theSupreme Court, ohio Supreme
Court as well.
And what we're going to do iswe're going to enact a criminal
sentencing statewide database sothat many of these equal

(04:48):
justice issues, fairness issues,will be a part of it.
And right in the car that allof these task force we had, all
of these people saying thatthere are blue ribbon panels
across the country over 25 years.
There's a critical need fordata.
That I all said the reason whyI think it hasn't.
And this is where, again comingback to where John and I are,

(05:10):
I'm in a position because I wentto a place like the US to when
you have.
It's that what institutionalracism or bias is?
It's that place where, likeliterally like 45 years of Blue
Ribbon Tap this is around theUnited States y'all.
There must be a reason, and theonly reason I can come up with

(05:32):
is institutional.
It doesn't happen because, likejudges or the public or
everyone else, just watch thingscontinue on, and that's what
institutional bias I think is.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah, I was flabbergasted doing research for
this upcoming session, wherethis has been going on since
1999, and that people havelooked at this issue and, as you
said, building a database issomething that is pretty common
and pretty easy these days, infact, that it's been a number of
task forces, a number ofcommissions for 25 years and it

(06:07):
just sits there and status quowins out right, and I think when
the status quo wins out, thatthen, in my mind, reinforces
whether it be institutionalracism or implicit bias or
whatever.
But one of the things I alwaystalk about with my colleagues is
you can't measure what youcan't see and you can't fix what

(06:31):
you can't measure, and so Ithink you're really on to
something as far as trying to atleast just get the data in a
place so you can see it, thenyou can measure it.
Once you measure it, so you cansee it, then you can measure it
.
Once you measure it, then youcan manage it and you can fix it
.
What you're trying to do andthat's what, again, why we
wanted to have you on the showis you clearly are in, and it's

(06:53):
something that should have beendone a decade or so ago.
You were finally able to put,and I think, I think, jan,
you're right, I think this whole, this idea of all these
commissions, all these taskforce.
They were the little flake inthe slow globe and they settled
down to the bottom of the globeand now Ray's coming in and he's

(07:15):
shaking that globe up.
The timing is, I think, reallygood, but I was very, like I
said, back to my main point.
I was surprised anddisappointed, to be honest, that
this has been going on for solong that good data drives
information.

Speaker 2 (07:30):
I'm doing my best as a judge to do the day-to-day
things, but then always thereneeds to be somebody who is also

(07:51):
not just doing the day-to-daythings but looking to see where
there are places where there canbe significant improvements,
and I'm proud of the effort thatI have led in Ohio to bring
information to the forefront,because it flows up and down
through the entire justicesystem, as you just said, john,
and I think that one of thethings that is so important the
reason why I want to use wordsthat might be inflammatory is

(08:12):
because there needs to be someinflammation right now, because
it always seems to disappear.
Can I pop in on that?

Speaker 3 (08:22):
I want to try to hit on that word because, coming
from somebody that is an ICUnurse first and foremost and
then kind of like a pseudo, Isay I have my street degree in
communication, right, my actualdegree was in nursing.
So when you say the wordinflammation, a lot of people
associate inflammation with bad.

(08:42):
Right, Like you want to takeanti-inflammatories, you want to
take things.
But the ironic thing is thatinflammation is one of the first
steps in the cascade ofresponses that your body has for
protection.
It's one of the first stepsthat your body undergoes, Like
when you get stung by a bee.
The entire reason why you startto get inflamed is because your
body releases histamine, whichis meant to try to protect body

(09:06):
systems.
Right, and?
But as soon as you said that itwas the first thing, you said
that we need it's.
Inflammation is required rightnow, Like we need to use a
little bit of inflammatory stuff.
A because inflammation isuncomfortable.
B, because the intention behindthe inflammation is that of

(09:29):
protection.
God bless you.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
And protecting the justice system is fundamental,
especially in this year 2020,because there's so many people
who are losing confidence in ourinstitutions.
The judicial system is not onewhere we have an army behind us
or anything like that.
Of course, people do anything.
No people submit because theybelieve in our system and that

(09:51):
justice is fair, and there's aneed for that to be always
reinforced.
And so when we haveopportunities like the criminal
sentencing database, to makepeople aware that they can be
part of something thattransforms not just their lives
but, like, like I said, it'sabout when we can do something

(10:12):
to affect the system itself,that makes the entire system for
all of us that much better.
So that's what I'm, that's whatI'm most concerned about, most
interested in and most pleasedwith being on this program
Because, like you said,information using words like why
did it not happen for 25 yearsis that?

(10:35):
Well, I'm going to call it LikeI said.
I went to prep school, I'vebeen in an Ivy League.
I hopefully want to be in aposition to challenge both black
, white and any kind of raceperson.
Call stuff what it is.
In some ways, it may not beaccurate, but at least it will
begin the process of making thechange, the disruption that's

(10:57):
necessary to stop it now andmake 2020 the time when, across
the United States, butparticularly in Ohio, we begin a
movement to get data for ourfelony sentences so that there
can be measurement of inequalityor measurement of equality.
We just don't even know.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
That's the end of part two.
I hope you enjoyed ourdiscussion about for a simple
database that could give thetools to our judicial system to
make fair and equitablesentencing decisions.
Join us for part three.
Jan and I will dive deeper withRay around his concept he

(11:40):
coined called mass incarceration, where we will get to know and
better understand theinitiatives he was doing and
where he was working and how hefelt it would improve the
overall judicial system in thestate of Ohio and save the
taxpayers money.
Again, thanks for listening tothis special edition of the

(12:00):
Disruptor Podcast.
We hope to see you at the nextone.
Thanks a lot.
Take care Bye.