September 30, 2024 • 61 mins
In the final episode of Season #1, hosts Matt Moore and Ashley Hatch engage in a deep conversation with Dr. Peter Olusoga, a renowned sports psychologist, about the intricacies of elite sports coaching, the impact of stress on athletes and coaches, and the importance of self-awareness and inclusivity in sports. They explore how stress can be both a motivator and a detriment, the role of coaches in fostering athlete well-being, and the socio-cultural factors that influence the experiences of athletes from diverse backgrounds. The discussion also touches on personal journeys, failures, and the lessons learned along the way, culminating in a light-hearted exchange about sports fandom.
Find Pete on:
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr_pete_olusoga
Listen to his podcast, Eighty Percent Mental here: https://eightypercentmental.com/links/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. When we talk about stress as being this bad thing,
(00:03):
we've got to avoid it, we've got to reduce it, eliminate it. Stress isn't bad. Anybody who has
had an assignment due in the next morning or anybody who's had like a tight work deadline
knows that stress can be like a really, really good thing. It can motivate us, it can spur us
on to do like, you know, amazing things, but it can also be detrimental. The way that I like to
explain stress is almost like a seesaw. On one side of the seesaw, we have all of the demands
(00:26):
that are placed upon us. They can be big things, they can be small things. And on the other side
are our coping resources, coping resources of how well we think we can cope with all of those
demands. For whatever reason, when the seesaw tips, that's when we're experiencing stress.
So that might be when the demands pile up or when they get bigger, or it could be that the demands
actually haven't changed at all and just our ability to cope might have diminished somehow.
(00:50):
Either way, you know, that seesaw can tip and that's when we start to experience stress.
How can we change this relationship that we have with stress?
Hello everyone, welcome to our last and final episode of Ditto for season one.
(01:14):
Thank you so much for joining us on this journey. It's been a lot of fun, but we're super excited
for this last episode because we have another amazing guest that I will let Matt introduce us to.
Yes, Ashley, by the way, how are things training life, things going okay?
Yeah, things are good in the grind. I know you had a hard collision in a match the other day.
(01:40):
Yeah, it's good. Head is all good. I just had a little bump on my head, but I'm fine. I've
recovered and we're here. So things are well. Thanks for asking. Yeah.
Yeah, so this is a huge privilege for me. Not that the other previous guests weren't privileges.
This for me is a huge privilege. I was telling Pete before you hopped on Ashley,
(02:05):
don't be surprised if my voice like quivers or I start, you can see like beads of sweat
going down my face because I'm kind of a fanboy here when it comes to my nerdy side.
I mean, Pete's research and his podcasts are phenomenal and the work he's done is
phenomenal. I don't know. I can't think of any other word. And so let me introduce who this is
(02:27):
to the listeners. Wonderful, wonderful human being. And we've never actually met in person.
It's been like via LinkedIn and social media. And now we're like finally virtual talking to
each other. So I'm again, this is fabulous. OK, listener. So this is Dr. Peter and I'm going to
say this right, Pete. Oh, saga. So he said, yeah, I was practicing that before we got on.
(02:54):
Dr. Pete Oluseaga, he is a BPS, which stands for British Psychological Society chartered
psychologist and senior lecturer at Sheffield Hallam University in the UK, which I think we
were just saying this, Pete Sheffield, for those that are wanting to orient themselves in terms of
where London is that you said just south of London a couple hours or do you say so north? Yeah,
(03:18):
it's about two hours north of London on the train. But the UK so small compared to the US that it's
like just pretty much next door to London. You can be in another country. It sounds awesome.
OK, so Pete completed his PhD in 2012. And at least at the time, and I think this is trickled
over to your current position, your post now at Sheffield Hallam, your your focus was on stress
(03:46):
and coping in elite sports, especially sports coaching. Right. And then going into that current
research is on burnout, well-being and sustainability. I love that word in high
performance environments. And I want to go over kind of from your perspective here in just a minute.
What I mean, how are we conceptualizing elite? How are we conceptualizing high performance?
(04:08):
I think that kind of will set the stage for some people that we hear those these pop terms all the
time. Like what do they actually mean? Pete is an internationally recognized researcher in sports
psychology. I can vouch for that one hundred percent. I know a lot of people not listening
or listening to this podcast don't dive into sports psychology literature. I have done that.
(04:28):
And again, I've utilized and looked over and gone through a lot of his stuff.
Pete is also a regular speaker, panelist and host at events and conferences on topics such as self
care and mindfulness and imposter phenomenon, stress, burnout, a lot of other things, psychological
(04:51):
well-being, diversity, inclusion, some of the things that we're going to be talking about here.
And then kind of lastly, some of the media engagements that he's involved in. One is he's
a regular. How often does this happen? Regular guests on BBC's Radio 4's All in the Mind. Do
you go on a weekly basis? No. So they have a regular presenter and they have a studio guest
(05:15):
and there's probably about like six or seven different psychologists that go on. So I'll
probably do like maybe four of them a year, four or five a year. Yeah. And you go on and talk about
your research and your practice. So not really anything to do with psychology stuff that's in
the news, recent research that's out there, stuff that's current and like current affairs in
(05:38):
psychology. So I go on and kind of talk about some of that stuff. Awesome. I love it. And then
lastly, you have an award-winning podcast. Award-winning. So what awards, what recognition
have, I'm curious Pete, because I've been an avid listener over the years. Let me introduce the
podcast. 80% mental and export psychology and performance sport well-being. So yeah, award
(06:03):
winning. Yeah. What is that showing? So I was really honored to win an ASP award, the Association
of Applied Sports Psychology. It was, let me get this right. Distinguished, I can't even remember,
communication outreach, like basically bringing psychology into the mainstream.
(06:27):
So I was really, really honored to get that from ASP a couple of years ago.
Yeah. That's wonderful. I've been listening to the podcast, I think for about four, maybe five
years now. How long has it been going on? Since 2020. So pretty much, pretty much exactly four
years. I started in September, 2020. I think as soon as it started coming out, I think I started
(06:48):
listening to it. And in fact, when I taught a graduate class at Miami University in Oxford,
Ohio with Robin Veely, who I know, you know, wonderful dear friend of mine, I issued an
assignment where they were to listen to three of your episodes. And so three of our discussions
(07:10):
in class with my graduate students were all around Pete's podcast and some of the guests and ideas
and concepts that he unpacked during those three. My next graduate course that I'd be teaching,
I'm going to be still utilizing some of those episodes. So I highly recommend for those that
want to dive further into sports, psychology and performance and well-being and sport, 80%
(07:31):
mental. By the way, title of the podcast, why 80%? So, I mean, we know that there's obviously like
a big mental component to sports and the honest story, I've got like a list of about 50 different
titles that we came up with and just decided we didn't want. But you know, there's a huge
(07:53):
mental component in sport. The honest answer is 90% was already taken and 70% is just too many
syllables to say over and over again when you're hosting a podcast. So we settled on 80%.
And that's the honest answer. I love it. 60% didn't seem like quite enough. So 80% is a good
(08:15):
round number. Seems pretty accurate. Yeah. It fits right here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So to kind of get
us started on your journey, your expertise, your experiences, if you don't mind, Pete,
I think this is where I want to start. Help us define some of, you know, broad, starting from
(08:37):
this 30,000 foot viewpoint, help us kind of define and try to conceptualize things like elite sports
coaching, high performance environments. Again, from my perspective, I think we, especially in
society, use these terms all the time. But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, they're, you know,
trying to differentiate them and conceptualize them does make a difference when presenting,
(09:01):
when helping, when trying to apply some of its principles. And so based off a lot of these things
that you're doing, especially these words like elite, high performance, even things like burnout,
well being, sustainability is another word that I just love. Start wherever you want with that. I
know there was a lot going on there, but help us try to kind of define and conceptualize what's
(09:25):
going on with some of these terms that you are so keen on understanding. Yeah. We'll start with the
this idea of elite and high performance because it's actually really tricky to pin down.
And it's really tricky to define. And I don't know if anybody's really done that properly yet.
So when we like, I'll use coaching, because that's kind of the research that I focus on.
(09:49):
When we talk about high performance coaching, what we're really talking about is the environment
that coaches operate in rather than like the skill level of the coach, for example, right?
Or the experience of the coach. So high performance environments are characterized by like an intense
(10:10):
pressure to produce results, perhaps like media scrutiny. So, you know, if you take like the level
of the Olympics, for example, there's a pressure to produce medals because funding, well in our
country anyway, funding is based on medals. So you need to do well in order to retain funding,
et cetera, et cetera. So there's a lot of performance based pressure. There's a lot of
(10:33):
scrutiny over performance as well. So it's the environment itself that we would consider high
performance. And this is where it gets complicated because if there is a coach who is perhaps new in
that environment, like does that make them a high performance coach? I don't really know the answer
(10:54):
to that question, right? If there is a coach who's in that environment, who just happens to have an
amazing, amazing athlete and it wouldn't really matter if the coach turned up or not, right?
Does that make them a high performance coach? Is it about the outcome? Is it about... So we try and
think of high performance as the environment that they're operating in rather than like I say, any
(11:17):
sort of level of experience or expertise. Obviously they're likely to have, you know, a level of
experience and expertise if they're in that sort of environment. But yeah, that sort of pressure to
high performance results oriented type environment with a lot of scrutiny and a lot of evaluation.
(11:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for helping. At least we better understand that. Have you found,
this has kind of been my experience, I'm wondering if you feel a similar sentiment,
when the level of importance goes up, usually pressure goes up. They're kind of this bi-directional
relationship. And so at these elite levels, have you found that to be greater? I mean, or I mean,
(12:07):
is it, are there avenues of this same sentiment within youth sports, within college sports,
et cetera, in terms of pressure and where that exists? Does that make sense?
Yeah. I mean, I think that the pressure exists at all levels, right? The felt experience
(12:28):
might be exactly the same for a high school football coach as it is for somebody coaching
in the NFL, right? In the Superbowl. The felt experience of that pressure might be exactly
the same. The stakes may be a slightly different, but there's absolutely sort of levels of pressure
because somebody's, I don't know, amateur rec league basketball game might be as important to them
(12:57):
as the NBA finals is to the Boston Celtics. So it's all like, importance is relative, I think.
And like I say, it's the felt experience of stress, right? The emotions that come as a result of that,
the thought processes that come as a result of that stress and that pressure are the same,
(13:18):
regardless of the level. It's just that the stakes are slightly different.
Makes sense. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that lived experience, that subjectivity, if you will,
is just a crucial role in whatever kind of level that person or that team might be in.
(13:38):
You said something that I want to kind of start to dive into that I know a lot, if not every
listener is going to be able to relate to stress. You've been talking a lot about it, especially on
social media as of late, which I've just loved. Help us again, starting from a broad perspective,
if you don't mind, how can we conceptualize stress? And then things that I've particularly
(14:01):
loved from your work is how can we change our relationship with stress, especially in
domains like elite sport and sport coaching? Well, I guess the first and probably the most
important thing to say is that stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. When we talk about
stress as being this bad thing, we've got to avoid it, we've got to reduce it, eliminate it.
(14:21):
Stress isn't bad. And anybody who has had an assignment due in the next morning,
or anybody who's had a tight work deadline, knows that stress can be a really, really good thing.
It can motivate us, it can spur us on to do amazing things, it can energize us.
But it can also be detrimental. The way that I like to explain stress, and like you say,
(14:43):
you might have seen this on social media, is almost like a seesaw. And on one side of the
seesaw, we have all of the demands that are placed upon us. They can be big things, they can be small
things, they can be moving house, they can be losing your keys, whatever, it doesn't really
matter. All the demands that we face are placed on one side of the seesaw, and then on the other
side are our coping resources. Coping resources are how well we think we can cope with all of
(15:09):
those demands. So for whatever reason, when the seesaw tips, that's when we're experiencing
stress. So that might be when the demands pile up, or when they get bigger, or it could be that the
demands actually haven't changed at all, and just our ability to cope with it. So that's
the way we think we need to cope, or how well we think we can cope might have diminished somehow.
(15:31):
Maybe we're just fatigued, or we haven't had as much rest, or it's not feeling in a good space.
Either way, that seesaw can tip, and that's when we start to experience stress. And we can respond
to that in a number of different ways. Everybody responds differently. Like I said, we can respond
really positively, if we see that stress as a challenge. But we can also experience unhelpful
(15:55):
anger, frustration, anxiety, a little bit of fear maybe as well. We can behave differently
when we're stressed. And again, anybody who's experienced stress knows that we'll recognise
that their behaviour sometimes changes. You might get a little bit sharper with somebody,
a little bit more irritable. I get irritable. And obviously there's the kind of physiological stuff
(16:17):
as well that goes on, the fight or flight, the increased heart rate, the breathing rate,
all of that stuff can, you know, they're kind of those acute responses to stress as well. So
that imbalance between demands and resources, and then everybody responds to that really,
really differently depending on their own individual histories and coping skills and abilities and
backgrounds. And then how can we change our relationship with stress based on everything
(16:46):
you just said, especially in a domain like professional soccer, Ashley plays professional
soccer. How can individuals like herself and even coaches, because I know coaching is a big part of
your research, change this relationship that we have with stress because it's inevitable.
We all experience it and we're going to continue to experience it. So how can we kind of, you know,
(17:08):
make it our friend, so to speak? Well, I think the biggest thing, and I talk about this all the time,
is self-awareness. And, you know, self-awareness is this foundational psychological skill. It kind
of underpins everything else in psychology. So in order to change that relationship that we have
with stress, like the first thing, the kind of fundamental thing that we have to do is understand,
(17:31):
okay, well, like, what are the things that stress me out? Like, what actually are my causes of stress?
What are the things that, you know, will tip that seesaw? Like, are they the big things, right?
Maybe are they some of the little things that pile up? And just being able to like notice when
that's happening, notice when those stresses are starting to pile up, like that's an awareness skill,
(17:55):
right? Understanding how you normally would respond to stress, like that's again, it's a
noticing skill, an awareness skill. Like, what does my body do? What is, you know, where does my brain
go when I'm experiencing stress? Like, how do I start thinking slightly differently? And that
allows you to notice when something that would ordinarily be like, okay, that's kind of irritating,
(18:22):
is now causing you to like throw things and swear at people, right? And noticing when your responses
to stress start to change, right? That's when you can start to do something about it. So again,
it's an awareness thing that helps us to change that relationship that we have with it. We know,
like, I know what my body does, I know what my brain does. And that foundation allows me to then
(18:47):
choose something different, which sounds really easy when I'm saying it, but actually, it's really,
really difficult. But it's about finding those gaps, those little moments between stimulus and
response, right? I know that these stresses are coming, I can feel them come, I know what they are,
but I know what my responses are normally. And if you can find that little gap between stimulus and
(19:10):
response, then that's when we can maybe choose to do something different, choose to do something
more productive, choose to do something that helps us cope a little bit more efficiently, I guess.
Ashley, do you relate to that at all? Oh my gosh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, I think a point of
(19:32):
emphasis that I really like is finding that little gap. And I feel like you can't find that gap in
less, like a lot of the times, us as professional athletes, sometimes we think this stressful
situation that we've been placed in or something, a role that we've been asked to play is like
outside of our control. And so we get stressed out, and we just think that we can't control
(19:52):
anything. But when you take a step back, and like you said, you have, you practice this
self awareness and try and understand how you're reacting to a specific situation, then that's
where I feel like you find those little gaps to be able to influence, you know, whether it's your
emotions or your reactions to a specific situation. But yeah, it's definitely a lot harder to do than
(20:19):
to talk about. But I think being able to just take a step back and recognizing, you know,
what your body, how your body is reacting to a stressful situation is a really good place to start.
And Ashley, I'm not speaking for you. So please confirm after I say this. Okay.
Okay. When we started working together, I would say honestly, the first
(20:46):
year, maybe longer, it was self aware. It was like self awareness overload. Yeah.
So as soon as it's like, well, it starts with self awareness and even ends with self awareness.
Yeah. It was like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding for me and for you, right? And I know that was
just, it is so big. It's so easy to say becoming more self aware, but man, it requires a lot of
(21:13):
deliberate and consistent practice like you've done. In fact, Pete, I remember it was like one
of the proudest moments in my professional experience after like three years, I think,
Ashley, I don't know what, why that this was the day when this happened, but you showed me your
notebook. I mean, Pete was just saying, make note between stimulus and response, make note when this
(21:36):
environment, when this domain causes stress, when this happens and what you're going to do about it.
And then she showed me Pete, her notebook and she flipped through just this notebook chuck full of
like self awareness, how she's becoming more self aware. And for me, it was like, that's it, like
recognizing what's going on and being accepting of that is just so crucial for stress anxiety.
(22:03):
All of those things that can be so, so debilitating when we aren't self aware and accepting of those
things. Yeah. I think the, the, the accepting thing that you just said that that that's like the,
you know, the next stage, that's the really important, important bit. Cause again, we, we,
traditionally think of the unhelpful stuff that's associated with stress as something that we need
(22:26):
to get rid of. When you get rid of anxiety, you need to get rid of fear, need to get rid of these
unhelpful emotions, but it's that acceptance, what kind of mindful acceptance of these emotions that
we think of as bad, but actually they're just, they're just part of the human experience.
So changing your relationship with stress is changing your relationship with the emotions
that come as a result of stress as well. So yeah, that, that acceptance piece is absolutely the next,
(22:52):
you know, the next bit, but you know, like both of you guys were just saying that self awareness,
it's a skill, isn't it? And it can be practiced and you can get better at it. You can practice
noticing and yeah, as such a kind of, well, it can have such a transformational impact on,
on the way that you understand yourself and, and, and, you know,
(23:14):
and, and, you know, the way that you deal with things like stress.
A hundred percent. Pete, with that all in mind, how have you seen this in elite sports?
And especially I'm thinking of coaches, you know, they tend, and I'm being, I'm generalizing
totally right here. And so just throwing that caveat out, a lot of coaches tend to
(23:38):
be more tactical and more literal and more kind of tough minded machismo. If you want to throw that
word out there. And so, you know, things like developing self awareness and developing acceptance
can be really hard to say, yes, I need to do that. And number two, yes, I need to start integrating
(23:58):
this into my own practice as a coach and into my team. And so here's my question.
Here's my question. How have you seen this in your research and in your practice with some of the
coaches and some of the programs and teams and cultures you've been around and the struggles
and maybe the beauties that happen as a result of not doing this and also doing this, if that makes
(24:23):
sense? Sure. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think like with the, the coaches that I've worked with
and the environments that I've been in, like generally, they're pretty accepting of it.
They're pretty kind of switched on in terms of understanding the importance of this stuff,
(24:45):
understanding the importance of self awareness, understanding the importance of, you know, when
we start talking about things like mindfulness and acceptance, like they kind of get it. Doing it is
it another story altogether, but they certainly get it. And I think, you know, the way that I try
and couch this is that like practicing this stuff and practicing self care, like it really is a
(25:10):
performance strategy. It's not about just feeling good and, you know, being at peace and, you know,
meditating under trees and stuff like that. Like it really is a performance thing. And if you can
kind of put it in those terms, then you're more likely to get a, like a bit of interest, I guess,
a bit of, oh, how can this actually help me? How can this help me be a better coach? How can this
(25:32):
help me be a better performer? But yeah, I think like, obviously there's still some resistance in
pockets and different sports and different, different individuals, but generally speaking,
I think we're starting to see a little bit of a shift where discussions around wellbeing,
(25:55):
I guess, aren't as stigmatized maybe as they used to be. I think part of that is maybe led by
athletes who in the last five, 10 years have started to become a lot more vocal. But yeah,
I think certainly in the coaching space, it's been pretty well received, I think. Yeah. Ashley,
(26:17):
your experience, would you concur? I mean, what has been your experience, especially with coaches
in terms of understanding, integrating some of these concepts? Yeah. I mean, I would agree with
Pete. I think coaches are also competitors and any competitor wants to do anything they can to
get that edge or to continue to improve. And I think there's so much unknown on the psychological
(26:41):
side of our sport and how we can continue to improve that we are starting to see the results
of people actually taking care of the mental side of their game. And so yeah, I would agree that I
feel like players have kind of led the charge in that. But I think coaches also recognizing
the difference that it makes in their players. They're also like, okay, I'm also performing,
(27:08):
I'm competing, I can also be better at my job. And just looking back at all the coaches I've had
throughout my career, I've also seen that evolution of coaches not only caring about... I feel like it
started coaches caring about it for their athletes so their athletes will continue to perform better.
But now the next stage of that evolution is coaches caring about it for themselves as well
(27:30):
so that they can be their best selves for their team. And it's very interesting too,
from an athlete's perspective, you can tell when a coach is better at coping with stress or using
stress in a more positive way than the opposite when a coach is stressed because of results
(27:51):
and how their leadership as a coach will change. And the athletes can feel that. And a lot,
I feel like the coaches a lot of the times will set the precedent in the locker room of
the feelings going into a competition based off the stress and their responses to a stressful
situation. And if we're going into a stress, a hard game and the coach is like calm and giving us,
(28:12):
you know, reassurance reassurances or reminding us of our training or doing all these things
to help us like come together. And although we're facing like the top opponent, we're prepared and
reminding us these things. But if the coach is like scared and stressed and like you can tell
that they're getting a little bit more snippy in training because maybe things aren't as clean as
(28:34):
they should be, we can also feel that as players. So, I mean, it's also interconnected. And so I
think it's really good that coaches are also taking care of that side of their game. And I'm
excited to continue to see where sports go as we all continue to improve because I think we'll all
just continue to get better. Yeah, 100%. In fact, I remember Ashley, I think I've shared this
(28:58):
on the podcast before. I remember sitting down with a really elite coach and she had never
really worked with a mental performance sports psychologist type of individual like myself.
And we started talking, and she immediately breaks down. And I remember thinking, Wow, what's, you
(29:21):
know, we unpacked what was going on. And, and she started to tell me this and that. And it
immediately hit me like that term of heavy is the head that wears the crown or the visor in this
case, because she's a coach. And I thought exactly what I mean, what you two have just been saying,
like, you're performing, just like athletes, and you need to be doing these things, just like your
(29:48):
athletes, but we tend I think, especially in elite settings in my, my short time of experience, I
think we tend to forget that it's not just about the holistic development of the athletes, of the
performers, but the coaches as well, because they're having to, I think, be able to be able to
(30:09):
be able to, again, they're having to perform just like their athletes. And so it's, it's interesting
to talk to some of these coaches and to recognize that importance. And, and hopefully, right, I know
your research speaks to this, integrate more of that for everyone involved in the program on the
team and the culture, etc. Because it's, it's of that, that important, so everyone can be developing
(30:32):
just like the performance, just like the athletes. So okay, Pete, so switching gears here just a
minute, because I want to, I want to get your take on some of this. You've discussed on your
podcast, and I know on a lot of your social media posts, this idea of kind of socio cultural
(30:53):
components integrated within elite sports into just sports in general. And it's, it was especially
intriguing to me because my research as a doctoral student essentially came from this socio cultural
lens. I tell people all the time, like, yeah, I have a PhD in sports psychology, but I studied
(31:14):
religion and spirituality and its intersection in sport. And they're like, shouldn't you study like
imagery and goal setting? I'm like, those are some of the things that we've studied. But my research
was that and it was amazing. And that is uber interesting to me. And so for you, I know race and
culture have been kind of at the forefront of least of what you've been speaking about. And I think
(31:39):
in some of your research, correct me if I'm wrong. So here's my question. And it's a big one. But I
would love to see where you take it. How do both race and culture or maybe just race impact the
stress athletes face? And maybe even more importantly, what can we do or what can be done
(32:00):
to make sport more inclusive and more safe regarding some of these issues?
Yeah, you're right. That is a big question. That's a big question.
Let me tell you a story. Someone sent me this story a couple of weeks ago. You can edit it out if it's
too long. But it's a good one. So there was a, did you hear about, there's a woman who moved to
(32:22):
Michigan from New York. And she, the whole time she lived, she lived in New York for like 20 years,
got pulled over by the police like twice, white woman, right? Moved to Michigan and got pulled
over by the police like five times in a year. Little, you know, little white lady. And she
couldn't work out why, right? She just, she'd moved to Michigan. She was just driving along.
(32:47):
She had two dogs in the car. She had like a, like a poodle and a Jack Russell or something.
And when she got pulled over, the cops would look into the car and that was it. No ticket,
no nothing. She was just told that she was like, uh, she was like, you know,
she was just told that she was like, uh, you know, a few miles under the speed limit.
(33:07):
Got sent on her way. Uh, and this kept happening. It happened like three times, four times. And
like, you know, they'd approach her, approach the car window, look in the car, relax a little bit,
and then just send her on her way. Say, are you like impeding traffic? You're driving a little
bit too slow. Off you go. She just couldn't figure out what was going on. And then one day she was
(33:28):
sat in a diner and another woman came up to her and said, there's a black guy outside stealing your
car. And suddenly like the penny dropped a poodle, a black poodle would sit in the front seat of her
car. And when it was like evening time, uh, from behind looked like there was a black guy sitting
(33:55):
in the car. So the police would pull her over, over and over and over again, hands on guns,
come up to her, realize that it was a dog, suddenly relax and just send her on her way.
And like, that was the point at which she realized that not everybody walks through this world in the
(34:15):
same way. Not everybody has the same experience. And it was this kind of light bulb moment for her.
And I just, I like, I love that story because, you know, it took that experience for her of being
pulled over and pulled over and just couldn't think, I couldn't get it. Didn't understand it.
Suddenly realize, ah, like my experience is different. And I think like that is the starting
(34:43):
point for thinking about how stress and race maybe are related. Um, like understanding
that actually like my experience of the world is different to yours. Um, the same stressors
might have a different outcome for me or some different things might be stressors for me
(35:05):
than they are for you. Right. Um, and just starting, starting with that, we can start
to see how stress and race are related. So for black athletes and coaches and, you know,
performers and like being a superstar athlete doesn't make any difference here. Cause we saw
what happened with Tyreek Hill a couple of weeks ago. I was just thinking that. Yeah. Right.
(35:28):
Doesn't, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. These is a superstar athlete. His experience of the
world is very different to somebody who is, who is racialized as white. So I think like starting
with that as an understanding, we can start to see how the experience of, like I say,
black coaches and athletes and psychologists and, you know, other types of performers might be
different and the other things are a source of stress that might not necessarily be so for other
(35:55):
people. And we can, you know, we can talk about other minoritized groups as well, you know, so,
uh, like trans people, uh, homosexual people, um, all sorts of different minoritized groups,
right? The experience of women in sport different. Um, you asked me about race, so we'll kind of
stick with that. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, the other thing that I talk about a lot is
(36:20):
highly charged racialized events. So over in the UK, a couple of weeks ago, we had, um, like some
really big protests about supposedly about immigration. It's basically about racism. Um,
well, loads of people came out and were rioting on the streets and setting fire to hotels that
were supposedly, uh, housing loads of immigrants. Now, my experience of watching that on the news
(36:46):
is very different to somebody who maybe is racialized as white, seeing that on the news,
because I'm seeing people who look like me being targeted and being harassed and abused and
experiencing racial violence. So every time I see that on the television over and over and over
again, and it's broadcast into our homes on the news over and over and over again, like that has
(37:08):
an impact. And we know that there's research to say that kind of these, these highly racialized
events have a disproportionate impact on, on people of color. Um, so yeah, beginning with
that understanding of, of that, um, I think is, is the key to seeing how stress might affect
different minoritized groups in different ways over and above kind of just a normal daily stresses
(37:32):
of performance. Yeah. Wow. Uh, thanks for sharing that. That paints a vivid image, at least in my
mind, actually, maybe you could touch on this, but let me first, um, well, yeah, let me get your
experience and then Pete maybe can chime in based off of that. How, from a leadership perspective
(37:56):
to make, I mean, if we're just talking about race here and with you, actually it's, it's women and
whatever it might be, whatever demographics it might be. I know, I know races are focused, but
from a leadership perspective, how do they go about facilitating a healthy, safe environment? Is it
just grabbing the minorities of the team of the culture and having focus groups? Is it
(38:22):
bringing everybody together and talking openly about these issues so that people
feel psychologically safe to bring up these types of topics and the, and the team and the culture?
Ashley, have you experienced anything like this in your professional career where coaches have,
and maybe they've done just the opposite, where they've done a horrible job of being inclusive
and safe or healthy, or maybe they've done a great job? I don't know. Can you, can you touch on that?
(38:44):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think first and foremost, it's important, especially like me
as a captain on my team, being in a leadership role is you have to know each and every one of your
players on an individual level. And I feel like if you don't, then it's really hard to serve them to
the best of your ability and to know what they want. Cause I, everyone wants something that's
(39:08):
different. Some people may like it to bring the group together and, and have a really good, open,
honest discussion. Some people might not like that. They might want smaller groups or they might want
groups or they might want people reaching out to them on an individual, more like intimate
conversation. So I think it's just having a pulse for what your team wants and what they need.
And also making sure that you take extra care of those people who maybe are in a minority that
(39:32):
might not have as big of a voice as the majority of the group. So yeah, I think it's, I've been on
different teams that have handled things different ways and I've been under different leadership. And
so I feel like I've, I've learned a lot. But I think first and foremost, the best first step is
to have a relationship with every single one of your players on an individual level. And so that
(39:54):
they know that you genuinely care about them as a person and that's a great place to start. And then
you can move forward from there and how to maybe address issues or to address a team, or if there's
something going on in the locker room, I think if you don't have that foundation, then it's really
hard to solve problems and make people feel seen and heard. So that's, that's how I've approached
(40:16):
it. That's how I've had other leaders approach things, you know, when I've been on teams,
but I think that's the best place to start. Yeah. Pete, can you concur based off kind of from the
literature or your own experience? What would be some more tactical approach? Yeah, I mean, I,
I, I can't, I can't agree more with what Ashley just said that it's about feeling the pulse of
(40:37):
the team and kind of understanding, you know, the, the perhaps individual wants and needs and reading
the temperature of the room, you know, it can be really powerful to have, you know, the whole team
there with people sharing their experiences of, you know, what, whatever it is that's, that's been
happening, whether there's been, you know, like racial violence in the news or whatever it might
(41:00):
be, that can be a really powerful thing, but you also have to understand that if you're asking
people to share their experiences, that puts people in a really vulnerable position and they
may not want to be in that position. So it really is just about like understanding your players,
understanding your team so that you can have those types of discussions individually and get a feel
(41:25):
for what might be like the most useful thing to do. Nothing's going to be perfect for everybody.
Um, but I think like one of the, one of the most powerful things that leaders can probably do is
to allow the space for their athletes to talk if they want to talk and to not talk if they don't
want to talk. Um, so you can't force people to do stuff. Um, but equally you have to allow them.
(41:54):
And I think we've seen a lot of this in, um, like the social justice movement when athletes are
really passionate about participating in social justice activities and movements. And, you know,
I think it's really important in those times and in those moments to allow athletes to use their
voice if they want to use it. Um, but yeah, it really is, like I said, I couldn't agree more
(42:20):
with what Ashley just said there about like reading the temperature of the room, you know,
feel the pulse, have that relationship with individual athletes. And I think that's
pleased to see what might be the most appropriate course of action. Yeah. Yeah. I love the
individual individuality component to that. I think it's really, really important. In fact,
(42:44):
I was talking about this a number of years ago with some grad students and how important it is
to do this, to help people feel that safety. And then one comment came up and it was a great comment
from a student. They said, well, American football, there's 120 plus athletes on the team.
How do you individually as a head coach, like make time with already an 80 hour work week
(43:09):
to individually sit down and make somebody feel that safety or allow that safety to exist?
And then my comment was, well, how many coaches are on the team? There's, there's a reason American
football has 30, 25 coaches, staff members. And it's not just to, you know, be a better quarterback
(43:33):
or be a better receiver or be a better running back. It's, I think in my mind, especially from
the holistic lens, so that that individuality component can in theory still exist even on
enlarged sporting environments like American football, where you do have a lot of athletes
on the team. So anyways, it was an interesting, interesting comment. Pete, I want to get your
(43:57):
take on this. Pulling continuing to pull on this thread. John Amici, I know who you know,
who was the guest on your podcast at some point. For those that don't know, he's I think British
American, he's a dual citizenship, if I'm not mistaken. He's an organizational psychologist,
(44:18):
wrote an amazing book called find your inner giant. I think the official title that right.
But he talks very openly, very eloquent, the promise of giants, sorry, the promise of
just looking at my book self disorder, trying to make sure that's right. Yeah, the promises of
giants, giants was in there because he's a giant, he's so big. He played in the NBA for a number of
(44:41):
years. He's an organizational psychologist. He's a black man. He's a gay man. And so I want to ask
you, Pete, what have you learned from this individual from john, in terms of better
understanding, you know, race and culture and its integration within sport, especially curious.
(45:03):
Oh, wow. I mean, I had john on the podcast a few years ago. And if I can plug my own podcast,
it was just it was such a good conversation. It was such an amazing conversation. And I'm kind
of really fortunate enough since then to be able to say that, like john's a friend of mine now.
(45:26):
And we talk about all sorts of stuff. And we talk a lot about race and racism and
and like how that manifests itself in sport. And he's just he's such a stoic and like gentle
character and very measured in everything that he says and very measured in his responses to things.
(45:54):
And I mean, I'd like I'd like to say I've taken that on board, but I'm not I'm absolutely the
opposite. I'm like reactionary and goby. And yeah. But yeah, you know, I think I think it's hard to
(46:19):
say what have I learned from? Yeah. I mean, like I said, just that sort of way of being really
measured in the way that you might respond to some of this stuff. Because there's a lot of it out
there. You know, we see it all the time. And I did the UK and the US are very, very different
(46:44):
in a lot of ways, but also very, very similar in a lot of ways. And racism is a huge part of society
in both of those different cultures. And like I said, I'm a bit mouthy and a bit goby, but I
certainly think that they're kind of trying to be a little bit more a bit more measured
(47:06):
in my approach is something I would say that I've learned from from John.
Yeah, there we can see the self awareness skill set coming. Right.
I have two more quick questions. One's a silly one. And one is more serious. Okay. Do you have
anything you'd like to ask Pete? I guess one question that I probably should ask the very
(47:31):
beginning is how did you get into this profession in the first place? Like what was it that led you
to have the desire to work not only on the psychological side of performance, but specifically
coaches because I feel like that perspective is very unique. Like you said, a lot of the
conversations stem around athletes, but I think it's just as important for coaches, especially
(47:56):
since they're leading their athletes. So what initially sparked your interest and your passion
to continue to take your career to where it is right now? So I mean, partly pure accident,
if I'm brutally honest. But I suppose I started off studying psychology and I didn't really know
(48:20):
that sports psychology was a thing. I didn't really know that existed. So I did my undergraduate
degree in psychology, but I played basketball and I coached basketball from when I was pretty young
and I kept on playing and I did a little bit of coaching as well throughout university.
And when I finished my undergraduate degree, I was still playing, I'm still coaching a couple
(48:41):
of the university teams as well. Purely by accident, I found out about sports psychology.
This was like four years after my undergrad. So I went back to do my master's degree, my PhD,
and it kind of made sense when it was coming to choose a topic for my PhD. I thought, well,
I know that coaching is stressful because I've done it. At the time, there wasn't a lot,
(49:06):
there was some research on coaching. So I wouldn't say that it was like a unique perspective. There's
a lot of people out there doing some really, really good research into coaching performance.
But at the time, there wasn't a huge amount. So it was kind of like a sort of logical thing for me
to study. And like I said, I started off looking at stress and coping and then sort of morphed into
(49:29):
looking at burnout and sort of wellbeing and like this idea of sustainable wellbeing, which Karen
Haglund and Joran Kenta over in Sweden did some really good work on coaching sustainability. So
I have to give them a little bit of a shout out as well for that. Awesome. That's cool. Yeah.
(49:51):
Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to see how people got into what they're passionate
about. And I feel like oftentimes it is usually by accident or we're following one path and we
realize we like it and it takes us one direction and then we find ourselves where we're at. So
I think that's really cool. Thanks for sharing. Pulling on that life thread. Here's my serious
(50:13):
question. And it's serious, but I'm not like, okay, everybody get ready. Here we go. I love
the question of tell us a time when you failed and what did you learn as a result of that experience?
And this can be Pete for you in academia, research, teaching. This can be in coaching. This can be
(50:36):
in relationships. You pick the domain. But when was the time where you failed, like you failed
and what did you learn as a result of that? I mean, I fail all the time every day.
I like, you know, I'm deadly serious about that. It's really hard to kind of pick one
when I was doing my A levels. So I don't know what the equivalent of that is in the U S but it's
(51:00):
like the end of senior high school. Okay. SATs, I guess, maybe, I don't know. But I was doing my
A levels and needed like an A and two Bs to get into university. Got my two Bs and completely failed
the other one. Totally failed it. Had to go back to college and I did end up doing a couple more
(51:21):
A levels. Did psychology and sociology. Ended up doing, you know, university. So it all worked out.
But failed then and learned that, you know, I thought I was kind of nailed on to get what I wanted.
Didn't. So, you know, I had to kind of pick myself up off the floor. You know, disappointed,
pretty gutted. But learned that, okay, well, I'm resilient. I can, you know, I can come back from
(51:48):
this and I did and I am where I am now. I've failed at numerous research studies. I've got so
many research studies that are just like on the cutting room floor. You know, you start something
and like for one reason or another, it just doesn't work out. What am I learning about myself
(52:12):
while I'm doing all this? I don't really know. I guess just that, you know, I'm good at keeping
on going. And I think I'm good at realizing what it is that's actually important. So I try not to
fail at the important stuff. I don't know. I was going to say like being a good father, but again,
(52:40):
like I messed that up all the time. But who doesn't? But it's just trying to sort of
reorient yourself. That's it. Maybe that's what I'm talking about. So is it a really long winded and
winding answer to a fairly straightforward question? But I guess it's like thinking about
like values, right? And like I do a lot of work based around acceptance, commitment therapy,
(53:00):
right? Values is a big part of that understanding like what your compass direction is in
lots of different, different areas and understanding that you're going to fail all the time.
That's kind of where I started, right? I fail all the time, but it's about noticing when that's
happening and just reorienting yourself. And through experience and just through failing over
(53:21):
and over and over again, you get good at noticing when it's happening and you get good at
reorienting to moving in the direction of what's important to you. I should have just said that at
the start instead of waffling for like two minutes. I don't know.
You reoriented yourself to get to that answer. I failed at that question. You're practicing it right now.
I failed to answer your question, noticed that I was failing and then reoriented myself.
(53:44):
That's fabulous. I love that word reoriented, reorientation. I know I just experienced that.
Pete, my wife left for four days. We have two small kids. I had to reorient myself like
three billion different times. It was unbelievable. The moment she left, like chaos just ensued and it
(54:07):
didn't stop until she got back. And so resilient. I mean, you said resilience and you said
reorientation. Those things definitely came into play and trying to be a dad. Oh my gosh.
Awesome. Okay. Here's my last silly question. And then we're going to
cut you loose. You're ready for my silly question? Go for it. I'll try and do a better job of answering it.
(54:29):
I know. Here we go. So I'm a Chelsea supporter. Yeah. Okay. Someone's going to be. I need to ask
from someone who lives in the UK. Yeah. Is Chelsea the equivalent of supporting the Lakers?
Is Chelsea the equivalent of supporting the Lakers here in the States? Because if it is,
(54:54):
I'm not going to really support Chelsea anymore because I do not like the Lakers. And so who would
you equate like either NBA or NFL to Chelsea? That's a good question. Man City, etc. Yeah.
That's a good question. Because what happened was Chelsea came into like a load of money,
didn't they? And the kind of like 2000s, early 2000s. And they were like amazing for a while.
(55:17):
And everybody started supporting them because they were amazing and they had loads of money. So they
just bought everyone who's really good. And now they're less good. So I'm trying to think of like
an equivalent in the NBA. The Lakers is a good one, but that kind of makes sense to me. They kind of,
(55:38):
you know, team with a sort of history of doing really well. And now they're kind of like just
struggling and struggling, you know, so that that makes sense. Lakers. Yeah. Okay.
Why can I ask, can I ask why Chelsea? Why? So it started with Christian Pulisic when he was
playing for Chelsea and I've always weirdly followed Frank Lampard, even though he's not
(56:03):
associated with the club anymore. I've just, I liked when he was playing and I liked when he was
the manager and I wanted a team. I wanted to pick a team in the premier league. And so for me,
it was like, okay, well, you know, Christian plays for him and I like Frank Lampard. And so I'm going
to roll with Chelsea. And that was like four, five years ago. Yeah. Six years ago. Maybe.
(56:26):
Frank Lampard was a brilliant fantasy football league captain. Rock solid every week. Goal and
assist solid. Hey, well, thank you so, so, so much again. This in my humble opinion has been
(56:46):
fabulous. And so we want to thank you for your insight, for your wisdom and for being willing
to take time out of your day, your night, because it is nighttime there to do this. So Pete, thank
you. I appreciate you for hopping on here. Yeah. Thank you so much. You're more than welcome. I
really appreciate the invitation and the questions and I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. So
(57:12):
thank you both so much. It was seriously like I came in like, okay, I want to just geek out for
I know for years, years and years. Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, but I, you know, we have to keep it
at 45 minutes and of course I have a host. So I need to like tone down on some of my
No, it was no, it was great. It was great. I really enjoyed it. And you can just tell that
(57:37):
he's just so full of knowledge and wisdom. And so it was fun to hear all of his answers and his
perspective. Well, let me ask you first, Ash, you, you don't know him. You didn't really know of him.
What's your impression? What was that like having a conversation with Pete?
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I, like I said, I really enjoyed his answers and him just sharing
(58:00):
his knowledge and wisdom. You could just tell he's a very, very wise man, but just how calm
and collected he was and how thoughtful his answers were. I, like you said, I feel like I
could have sat here for a couple more hours and just geeked out as well and learn more about like
his research and his studies, the ones that were successful and published and whatnot. But, but
(58:26):
yeah, I really enjoyed it. I think we need to have him on again, because I would love to hear his
perspective on burnout, especially from coaches and athletes perspective. And I think what we were
talking about at the end, the reorient, orientating yourself. I'm curious if that's a common theme when
it comes to burnout with athletes and coaches, because it's something that I feel like everyone
(58:48):
will face at some point or another in their lives. But yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting
him on. What were your takeaways? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. 100% I think we should have him
back on, because there were two, three, I just off the top of my head, three other kind of main
topics that I wanted to kind of touch on. But in 45 minutes to an hour, it's just hard to unpack all
(59:15):
of these really broad, deep topics. But burnout definitely is one I think we'll have on our radar.
I yeah, I love speaking to him. Again, I'm kind of a geek over this stuff and his work and his podcast
and everything really he's done for the past four or five years is for me has been amazing and so
influential in my own life, my own, especially professional life, obviously, in sports psychology.
(59:41):
So that alone for me is amazing and just super interesting. But another reason why I really like
Pete, and you'll, you'll see this for those that follow him on social media and or listen to his
podcast. He's so down to earth. Like, for me, I love the people that are out of this world intelligent,
(01:00:02):
but just like t shirt, chill, you know, talks about really mundane, kind of everyday life type of
things. Oh, and he can unpack existential phenomenological concepts, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like he's he can do both of those. And that's many of the two or three of the many reasons why I really
(01:00:24):
enjoy following him. And I'm hopeful that the listeners will at least semi, right, semi geek out
over some of the stuff that I'm geeking out over. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yes, we'll see. Yeah. I think
everyone will enjoy it. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Okay. Uh, that yeah, that's a wrap for our final episode
(01:00:46):
of season one. I know it's crazy. It's coming to an end. Wait, so are we doing do we need to talk
about a like a bonus thing? Or is that hush hush? Did I just screw it up? No, we can talk about it.
Um, we still are working on the q&a. So if people have we have a few, a handful of questions, if
people have any more that they'd like to submit, it's your final chance. So submit your questions
(01:01:12):
and we'll we'll get back to you all with a bonus episode that will come out at a pre or a to be
to be determined time. So bye, everybody. Bye till next time.
Stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. When we talk about stress as being this bad thing,
(00:03):
we've got to avoid it, we've got to reduce it, eliminate it. Stress isn't bad. Anybody who has
had an assignment due in the next morning or anybody who's had like a tight work deadline
knows that stress can be like a really, really good thing. It can motivate us, it can spur us
on to do like, you know, amazing things, but it can also be detrimental. The way that I like to
explain stress is almost like a seesaw. On one side of the seesaw, we have all of the demands
(00:26):
that are placed upon us. They can be big things, they can be small things. And on the other side
are our coping resources, coping resources of how well we think we can cope with all of those
demands. For whatever reason, when the seesaw tips, that's when we're experiencing stress.
So that might be when the demands pile up or when they get bigger, or it could be that the demands
actually haven't changed at all and just our ability to cope might have diminished somehow.
(00:50):
Either way, you know, that seesaw can tip and that's when we start to experience stress.
How can we change this relationship that we have with stress?
Hello everyone, welcome to our last and final episode of Ditto for season one.
(01:14):
Thank you so much for joining us on this journey. It's been a lot of fun, but we're super excited
for this last episode because we have another amazing guest that I will let Matt introduce us to.
Yes, Ashley, by the way, how are things training life, things going okay?
Yeah, things are good in the grind. I know you had a hard collision in a match the other day.
(01:40):
Yeah, it's good. Head is all good. I just had a little bump on my head, but I'm fine. I've
recovered and we're here. So things are well. Thanks for asking. Yeah.
Yeah, so this is a huge privilege for me. Not that the other previous guests weren't privileges.
This for me is a huge privilege. I was telling Pete before you hopped on Ashley,
(02:05):
don't be surprised if my voice like quivers or I start, you can see like beads of sweat
going down my face because I'm kind of a fanboy here when it comes to my nerdy side.
I mean, Pete's research and his podcasts are phenomenal and the work he's done is
phenomenal. I don't know. I can't think of any other word. And so let me introduce who this is
(02:27):
to the listeners. Wonderful, wonderful human being. And we've never actually met in person.
It's been like via LinkedIn and social media. And now we're like finally virtual talking to
each other. So I'm again, this is fabulous. OK, listener. So this is Dr. Peter and I'm going to
say this right, Pete. Oh, saga. So he said, yeah, I was practicing that before we got on.
(02:54):
Dr. Pete Oluseaga, he is a BPS, which stands for British Psychological Society chartered
psychologist and senior lecturer at Sheffield Hallam University in the UK, which I think we
were just saying this, Pete Sheffield, for those that are wanting to orient themselves in terms of
where London is that you said just south of London a couple hours or do you say so north? Yeah,
(03:18):
it's about two hours north of London on the train. But the UK so small compared to the US that it's
like just pretty much next door to London. You can be in another country. It sounds awesome.
OK, so Pete completed his PhD in 2012. And at least at the time, and I think this is trickled
over to your current position, your post now at Sheffield Hallam, your your focus was on stress
(03:46):
and coping in elite sports, especially sports coaching. Right. And then going into that current
research is on burnout, well-being and sustainability. I love that word in high
performance environments. And I want to go over kind of from your perspective here in just a minute.
What I mean, how are we conceptualizing elite? How are we conceptualizing high performance?
(04:08):
I think that kind of will set the stage for some people that we hear those these pop terms all the
time. Like what do they actually mean? Pete is an internationally recognized researcher in sports
psychology. I can vouch for that one hundred percent. I know a lot of people not listening
or listening to this podcast don't dive into sports psychology literature. I have done that.
(04:28):
And again, I've utilized and looked over and gone through a lot of his stuff.
Pete is also a regular speaker, panelist and host at events and conferences on topics such as self
care and mindfulness and imposter phenomenon, stress, burnout, a lot of other things, psychological
(04:51):
well-being, diversity, inclusion, some of the things that we're going to be talking about here.
And then kind of lastly, some of the media engagements that he's involved in. One is he's
a regular. How often does this happen? Regular guests on BBC's Radio 4's All in the Mind. Do
you go on a weekly basis? No. So they have a regular presenter and they have a studio guest
(05:15):
and there's probably about like six or seven different psychologists that go on. So I'll
probably do like maybe four of them a year, four or five a year. Yeah. And you go on and talk about
your research and your practice. So not really anything to do with psychology stuff that's in
the news, recent research that's out there, stuff that's current and like current affairs in
(05:38):
psychology. So I go on and kind of talk about some of that stuff. Awesome. I love it. And then
lastly, you have an award-winning podcast. Award-winning. So what awards, what recognition
have, I'm curious Pete, because I've been an avid listener over the years. Let me introduce the
podcast. 80% mental and export psychology and performance sport well-being. So yeah, award
(06:03):
winning. Yeah. What is that showing? So I was really honored to win an ASP award, the Association
of Applied Sports Psychology. It was, let me get this right. Distinguished, I can't even remember,
communication outreach, like basically bringing psychology into the mainstream.
(06:27):
So I was really, really honored to get that from ASP a couple of years ago.
Yeah. That's wonderful. I've been listening to the podcast, I think for about four, maybe five
years now. How long has it been going on? Since 2020. So pretty much, pretty much exactly four
years. I started in September, 2020. I think as soon as it started coming out, I think I started
(06:48):
listening to it. And in fact, when I taught a graduate class at Miami University in Oxford,
Ohio with Robin Veely, who I know, you know, wonderful dear friend of mine, I issued an
assignment where they were to listen to three of your episodes. And so three of our discussions
(07:10):
in class with my graduate students were all around Pete's podcast and some of the guests and ideas
and concepts that he unpacked during those three. My next graduate course that I'd be teaching,
I'm going to be still utilizing some of those episodes. So I highly recommend for those that
want to dive further into sports, psychology and performance and well-being and sport, 80%
(07:31):
mental. By the way, title of the podcast, why 80%? So, I mean, we know that there's obviously like
a big mental component to sports and the honest story, I've got like a list of about 50 different
titles that we came up with and just decided we didn't want. But you know, there's a huge
(07:53):
mental component in sport. The honest answer is 90% was already taken and 70% is just too many
syllables to say over and over again when you're hosting a podcast. So we settled on 80%.
And that's the honest answer. I love it. 60% didn't seem like quite enough. So 80% is a good
(08:15):
round number. Seems pretty accurate. Yeah. It fits right here. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So to kind of get
us started on your journey, your expertise, your experiences, if you don't mind, Pete,
I think this is where I want to start. Help us define some of, you know, broad, starting from
(08:37):
this 30,000 foot viewpoint, help us kind of define and try to conceptualize things like elite sports
coaching, high performance environments. Again, from my perspective, I think we, especially in
society, use these terms all the time. But I think, correct me if I'm wrong, they're, you know,
trying to differentiate them and conceptualize them does make a difference when presenting,
(09:01):
when helping, when trying to apply some of its principles. And so based off a lot of these things
that you're doing, especially these words like elite, high performance, even things like burnout,
well being, sustainability is another word that I just love. Start wherever you want with that. I
know there was a lot going on there, but help us try to kind of define and conceptualize what's
(09:25):
going on with some of these terms that you are so keen on understanding. Yeah. We'll start with the
this idea of elite and high performance because it's actually really tricky to pin down.
And it's really tricky to define. And I don't know if anybody's really done that properly yet.
So when we like, I'll use coaching, because that's kind of the research that I focus on.
(09:49):
When we talk about high performance coaching, what we're really talking about is the environment
that coaches operate in rather than like the skill level of the coach, for example, right?
Or the experience of the coach. So high performance environments are characterized by like an intense
(10:10):
pressure to produce results, perhaps like media scrutiny. So, you know, if you take like the level
of the Olympics, for example, there's a pressure to produce medals because funding, well in our
country anyway, funding is based on medals. So you need to do well in order to retain funding,
et cetera, et cetera. So there's a lot of performance based pressure. There's a lot of
(10:33):
scrutiny over performance as well. So it's the environment itself that we would consider high
performance. And this is where it gets complicated because if there is a coach who is perhaps new in
that environment, like does that make them a high performance coach? I don't really know the answer
(10:54):
to that question, right? If there is a coach who's in that environment, who just happens to have an
amazing, amazing athlete and it wouldn't really matter if the coach turned up or not, right?
Does that make them a high performance coach? Is it about the outcome? Is it about... So we try and
think of high performance as the environment that they're operating in rather than like I say, any
(11:17):
sort of level of experience or expertise. Obviously they're likely to have, you know, a level of
experience and expertise if they're in that sort of environment. But yeah, that sort of pressure to
high performance results oriented type environment with a lot of scrutiny and a lot of evaluation.
(11:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for helping. At least we better understand that. Have you found,
this has kind of been my experience, I'm wondering if you feel a similar sentiment,
when the level of importance goes up, usually pressure goes up. They're kind of this bi-directional
relationship. And so at these elite levels, have you found that to be greater? I mean, or I mean,
(12:07):
is it, are there avenues of this same sentiment within youth sports, within college sports,
et cetera, in terms of pressure and where that exists? Does that make sense?
Yeah. I mean, I think that the pressure exists at all levels, right? The felt experience
(12:28):
might be exactly the same for a high school football coach as it is for somebody coaching
in the NFL, right? In the Superbowl. The felt experience of that pressure might be exactly
the same. The stakes may be a slightly different, but there's absolutely sort of levels of pressure
because somebody's, I don't know, amateur rec league basketball game might be as important to them
(12:57):
as the NBA finals is to the Boston Celtics. So it's all like, importance is relative, I think.
And like I say, it's the felt experience of stress, right? The emotions that come as a result of that,
the thought processes that come as a result of that stress and that pressure are the same,
(13:18):
regardless of the level. It's just that the stakes are slightly different.
Makes sense. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that lived experience, that subjectivity, if you will,
is just a crucial role in whatever kind of level that person or that team might be in.
(13:38):
You said something that I want to kind of start to dive into that I know a lot, if not every
listener is going to be able to relate to stress. You've been talking a lot about it, especially on
social media as of late, which I've just loved. Help us again, starting from a broad perspective,
if you don't mind, how can we conceptualize stress? And then things that I've particularly
(14:01):
loved from your work is how can we change our relationship with stress, especially in
domains like elite sport and sport coaching? Well, I guess the first and probably the most
important thing to say is that stress isn't necessarily a bad thing. When we talk about
stress as being this bad thing, we've got to avoid it, we've got to reduce it, eliminate it.
(14:21):
Stress isn't bad. And anybody who has had an assignment due in the next morning,
or anybody who's had a tight work deadline, knows that stress can be a really, really good thing.
It can motivate us, it can spur us on to do amazing things, it can energize us.
But it can also be detrimental. The way that I like to explain stress, and like you say,
(14:43):
you might have seen this on social media, is almost like a seesaw. And on one side of the
seesaw, we have all of the demands that are placed upon us. They can be big things, they can be small
things, they can be moving house, they can be losing your keys, whatever, it doesn't really
matter. All the demands that we face are placed on one side of the seesaw, and then on the other
side are our coping resources. Coping resources are how well we think we can cope with all of
(15:09):
those demands. So for whatever reason, when the seesaw tips, that's when we're experiencing
stress. So that might be when the demands pile up, or when they get bigger, or it could be that the
demands actually haven't changed at all, and just our ability to cope with it. So that's
the way we think we need to cope, or how well we think we can cope might have diminished somehow.
(15:31):
Maybe we're just fatigued, or we haven't had as much rest, or it's not feeling in a good space.
Either way, that seesaw can tip, and that's when we start to experience stress. And we can respond
to that in a number of different ways. Everybody responds differently. Like I said, we can respond
really positively, if we see that stress as a challenge. But we can also experience unhelpful
(15:55):
anger, frustration, anxiety, a little bit of fear maybe as well. We can behave differently
when we're stressed. And again, anybody who's experienced stress knows that we'll recognise
that their behaviour sometimes changes. You might get a little bit sharper with somebody,
a little bit more irritable. I get irritable. And obviously there's the kind of physiological stuff
(16:17):
as well that goes on, the fight or flight, the increased heart rate, the breathing rate,
all of that stuff can, you know, they're kind of those acute responses to stress as well. So
that imbalance between demands and resources, and then everybody responds to that really,
really differently depending on their own individual histories and coping skills and abilities and
backgrounds. And then how can we change our relationship with stress based on everything
(16:46):
you just said, especially in a domain like professional soccer, Ashley plays professional
soccer. How can individuals like herself and even coaches, because I know coaching is a big part of
your research, change this relationship that we have with stress because it's inevitable.
We all experience it and we're going to continue to experience it. So how can we kind of, you know,
(17:08):
make it our friend, so to speak? Well, I think the biggest thing, and I talk about this all the time,
is self-awareness. And, you know, self-awareness is this foundational psychological skill. It kind
of underpins everything else in psychology. So in order to change that relationship that we have
with stress, like the first thing, the kind of fundamental thing that we have to do is understand,
(17:31):
okay, well, like, what are the things that stress me out? Like, what actually are my causes of stress?
What are the things that, you know, will tip that seesaw? Like, are they the big things, right?
Maybe are they some of the little things that pile up? And just being able to like notice when
that's happening, notice when those stresses are starting to pile up, like that's an awareness skill,
(17:55):
right? Understanding how you normally would respond to stress, like that's again, it's a
noticing skill, an awareness skill. Like, what does my body do? What is, you know, where does my brain
go when I'm experiencing stress? Like, how do I start thinking slightly differently? And that
allows you to notice when something that would ordinarily be like, okay, that's kind of irritating,
(18:22):
is now causing you to like throw things and swear at people, right? And noticing when your responses
to stress start to change, right? That's when you can start to do something about it. So again,
it's an awareness thing that helps us to change that relationship that we have with it. We know,
like, I know what my body does, I know what my brain does. And that foundation allows me to then
(18:47):
choose something different, which sounds really easy when I'm saying it, but actually, it's really,
really difficult. But it's about finding those gaps, those little moments between stimulus and
response, right? I know that these stresses are coming, I can feel them come, I know what they are,
but I know what my responses are normally. And if you can find that little gap between stimulus and
(19:10):
response, then that's when we can maybe choose to do something different, choose to do something
more productive, choose to do something that helps us cope a little bit more efficiently, I guess.
Ashley, do you relate to that at all? Oh my gosh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, I think a point of
(19:32):
emphasis that I really like is finding that little gap. And I feel like you can't find that gap in
less, like a lot of the times, us as professional athletes, sometimes we think this stressful
situation that we've been placed in or something, a role that we've been asked to play is like
outside of our control. And so we get stressed out, and we just think that we can't control
(19:52):
anything. But when you take a step back, and like you said, you have, you practice this
self awareness and try and understand how you're reacting to a specific situation, then that's
where I feel like you find those little gaps to be able to influence, you know, whether it's your
emotions or your reactions to a specific situation. But yeah, it's definitely a lot harder to do than
(20:19):
to talk about. But I think being able to just take a step back and recognizing, you know,
what your body, how your body is reacting to a stressful situation is a really good place to start.
And Ashley, I'm not speaking for you. So please confirm after I say this. Okay.
Okay. When we started working together, I would say honestly, the first
(20:46):
year, maybe longer, it was self aware. It was like self awareness overload. Yeah.
So as soon as it's like, well, it starts with self awareness and even ends with self awareness.
Yeah. It was like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding for me and for you, right? And I know that was
just, it is so big. It's so easy to say becoming more self aware, but man, it requires a lot of
(21:13):
deliberate and consistent practice like you've done. In fact, Pete, I remember it was like one
of the proudest moments in my professional experience after like three years, I think,
Ashley, I don't know what, why that this was the day when this happened, but you showed me your
notebook. I mean, Pete was just saying, make note between stimulus and response, make note when this
(21:36):
environment, when this domain causes stress, when this happens and what you're going to do about it.
And then she showed me Pete, her notebook and she flipped through just this notebook chuck full of
like self awareness, how she's becoming more self aware. And for me, it was like, that's it, like
recognizing what's going on and being accepting of that is just so crucial for stress anxiety.
(22:03):
All of those things that can be so, so debilitating when we aren't self aware and accepting of those
things. Yeah. I think the, the, the accepting thing that you just said that that that's like the,
you know, the next stage, that's the really important, important bit. Cause again, we, we,
traditionally think of the unhelpful stuff that's associated with stress as something that we need
(22:26):
to get rid of. When you get rid of anxiety, you need to get rid of fear, need to get rid of these
unhelpful emotions, but it's that acceptance, what kind of mindful acceptance of these emotions that
we think of as bad, but actually they're just, they're just part of the human experience.
So changing your relationship with stress is changing your relationship with the emotions
that come as a result of stress as well. So yeah, that, that acceptance piece is absolutely the next,
(22:52):
you know, the next bit, but you know, like both of you guys were just saying that self awareness,
it's a skill, isn't it? And it can be practiced and you can get better at it. You can practice
noticing and yeah, as such a kind of, well, it can have such a transformational impact on,
on the way that you understand yourself and, and, and, you know,
(23:14):
and, and, you know, the way that you deal with things like stress.
A hundred percent. Pete, with that all in mind, how have you seen this in elite sports?
And especially I'm thinking of coaches, you know, they tend, and I'm being, I'm generalizing
totally right here. And so just throwing that caveat out, a lot of coaches tend to
(23:38):
be more tactical and more literal and more kind of tough minded machismo. If you want to throw that
word out there. And so, you know, things like developing self awareness and developing acceptance
can be really hard to say, yes, I need to do that. And number two, yes, I need to start integrating
(23:58):
this into my own practice as a coach and into my team. And so here's my question.
Here's my question. How have you seen this in your research and in your practice with some of the
coaches and some of the programs and teams and cultures you've been around and the struggles
and maybe the beauties that happen as a result of not doing this and also doing this, if that makes
(24:23):
sense? Sure. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think like with the, the coaches that I've worked with
and the environments that I've been in, like generally, they're pretty accepting of it.
They're pretty kind of switched on in terms of understanding the importance of this stuff,
(24:45):
understanding the importance of self awareness, understanding the importance of, you know, when
we start talking about things like mindfulness and acceptance, like they kind of get it. Doing it is
it another story altogether, but they certainly get it. And I think, you know, the way that I try
and couch this is that like practicing this stuff and practicing self care, like it really is a
(25:10):
performance strategy. It's not about just feeling good and, you know, being at peace and, you know,
meditating under trees and stuff like that. Like it really is a performance thing. And if you can
kind of put it in those terms, then you're more likely to get a, like a bit of interest, I guess,
a bit of, oh, how can this actually help me? How can this help me be a better coach? How can this
(25:32):
help me be a better performer? But yeah, I think like, obviously there's still some resistance in
pockets and different sports and different, different individuals, but generally speaking,
I think we're starting to see a little bit of a shift where discussions around wellbeing,
(25:55):
I guess, aren't as stigmatized maybe as they used to be. I think part of that is maybe led by
athletes who in the last five, 10 years have started to become a lot more vocal. But yeah,
I think certainly in the coaching space, it's been pretty well received, I think. Yeah. Ashley,
(26:17):
your experience, would you concur? I mean, what has been your experience, especially with coaches
in terms of understanding, integrating some of these concepts? Yeah. I mean, I would agree with
Pete. I think coaches are also competitors and any competitor wants to do anything they can to
get that edge or to continue to improve. And I think there's so much unknown on the psychological
(26:41):
side of our sport and how we can continue to improve that we are starting to see the results
of people actually taking care of the mental side of their game. And so yeah, I would agree that I
feel like players have kind of led the charge in that. But I think coaches also recognizing
the difference that it makes in their players. They're also like, okay, I'm also performing,
(27:08):
I'm competing, I can also be better at my job. And just looking back at all the coaches I've had
throughout my career, I've also seen that evolution of coaches not only caring about... I feel like it
started coaches caring about it for their athletes so their athletes will continue to perform better.
But now the next stage of that evolution is coaches caring about it for themselves as well
(27:30):
so that they can be their best selves for their team. And it's very interesting too,
from an athlete's perspective, you can tell when a coach is better at coping with stress or using
stress in a more positive way than the opposite when a coach is stressed because of results
(27:51):
and how their leadership as a coach will change. And the athletes can feel that. And a lot,
I feel like the coaches a lot of the times will set the precedent in the locker room of
the feelings going into a competition based off the stress and their responses to a stressful
situation. And if we're going into a stress, a hard game and the coach is like calm and giving us,
(28:12):
you know, reassurance reassurances or reminding us of our training or doing all these things
to help us like come together. And although we're facing like the top opponent, we're prepared and
reminding us these things. But if the coach is like scared and stressed and like you can tell
that they're getting a little bit more snippy in training because maybe things aren't as clean as
(28:34):
they should be, we can also feel that as players. So, I mean, it's also interconnected. And so I
think it's really good that coaches are also taking care of that side of their game. And I'm
excited to continue to see where sports go as we all continue to improve because I think we'll all
just continue to get better. Yeah, 100%. In fact, I remember Ashley, I think I've shared this
(28:58):
on the podcast before. I remember sitting down with a really elite coach and she had never
really worked with a mental performance sports psychologist type of individual like myself.
And we started talking, and she immediately breaks down. And I remember thinking, Wow, what's, you
(29:21):
know, we unpacked what was going on. And, and she started to tell me this and that. And it
immediately hit me like that term of heavy is the head that wears the crown or the visor in this
case, because she's a coach. And I thought exactly what I mean, what you two have just been saying,
like, you're performing, just like athletes, and you need to be doing these things, just like your
(29:48):
athletes, but we tend I think, especially in elite settings in my, my short time of experience, I
think we tend to forget that it's not just about the holistic development of the athletes, of the
performers, but the coaches as well, because they're having to, I think, be able to be able to
(30:09):
be able to, again, they're having to perform just like their athletes. And so it's, it's interesting
to talk to some of these coaches and to recognize that importance. And, and hopefully, right, I know
your research speaks to this, integrate more of that for everyone involved in the program on the
team and the culture, etc. Because it's, it's of that, that important, so everyone can be developing
(30:32):
just like the performance, just like the athletes. So okay, Pete, so switching gears here just a
minute, because I want to, I want to get your take on some of this. You've discussed on your
podcast, and I know on a lot of your social media posts, this idea of kind of socio cultural
(30:53):
components integrated within elite sports into just sports in general. And it's, it was especially
intriguing to me because my research as a doctoral student essentially came from this socio cultural
lens. I tell people all the time, like, yeah, I have a PhD in sports psychology, but I studied
(31:14):
religion and spirituality and its intersection in sport. And they're like, shouldn't you study like
imagery and goal setting? I'm like, those are some of the things that we've studied. But my research
was that and it was amazing. And that is uber interesting to me. And so for you, I know race and
culture have been kind of at the forefront of least of what you've been speaking about. And I think
(31:39):
in some of your research, correct me if I'm wrong. So here's my question. And it's a big one. But I
would love to see where you take it. How do both race and culture or maybe just race impact the
stress athletes face? And maybe even more importantly, what can we do or what can be done
(32:00):
to make sport more inclusive and more safe regarding some of these issues?
Yeah, you're right. That is a big question. That's a big question.
Let me tell you a story. Someone sent me this story a couple of weeks ago. You can edit it out if it's
too long. But it's a good one. So there was a, did you hear about, there's a woman who moved to
(32:22):
Michigan from New York. And she, the whole time she lived, she lived in New York for like 20 years,
got pulled over by the police like twice, white woman, right? Moved to Michigan and got pulled
over by the police like five times in a year. Little, you know, little white lady. And she
couldn't work out why, right? She just, she'd moved to Michigan. She was just driving along.
(32:47):
She had two dogs in the car. She had like a, like a poodle and a Jack Russell or something.
And when she got pulled over, the cops would look into the car and that was it. No ticket,
no nothing. She was just told that she was like, uh, she was like, you know,
she was just told that she was like, uh, you know, a few miles under the speed limit.
(33:07):
Got sent on her way. Uh, and this kept happening. It happened like three times, four times. And
like, you know, they'd approach her, approach the car window, look in the car, relax a little bit,
and then just send her on her way. Say, are you like impeding traffic? You're driving a little
bit too slow. Off you go. She just couldn't figure out what was going on. And then one day she was
(33:28):
sat in a diner and another woman came up to her and said, there's a black guy outside stealing your
car. And suddenly like the penny dropped a poodle, a black poodle would sit in the front seat of her
car. And when it was like evening time, uh, from behind looked like there was a black guy sitting
(33:55):
in the car. So the police would pull her over, over and over and over again, hands on guns,
come up to her, realize that it was a dog, suddenly relax and just send her on her way.
And like, that was the point at which she realized that not everybody walks through this world in the
(34:15):
same way. Not everybody has the same experience. And it was this kind of light bulb moment for her.
And I just, I like, I love that story because, you know, it took that experience for her of being
pulled over and pulled over and just couldn't think, I couldn't get it. Didn't understand it.
Suddenly realize, ah, like my experience is different. And I think like that is the starting
(34:43):
point for thinking about how stress and race maybe are related. Um, like understanding
that actually like my experience of the world is different to yours. Um, the same stressors
might have a different outcome for me or some different things might be stressors for me
(35:05):
than they are for you. Right. Um, and just starting, starting with that, we can start
to see how stress and race are related. So for black athletes and coaches and, you know,
performers and like being a superstar athlete doesn't make any difference here. Cause we saw
what happened with Tyreek Hill a couple of weeks ago. I was just thinking that. Yeah. Right.
(35:28):
Doesn't, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. These is a superstar athlete. His experience of the
world is very different to somebody who is, who is racialized as white. So I think like starting
with that as an understanding, we can start to see how the experience of, like I say,
black coaches and athletes and psychologists and, you know, other types of performers might be
different and the other things are a source of stress that might not necessarily be so for other
(35:55):
people. And we can, you know, we can talk about other minoritized groups as well, you know, so,
uh, like trans people, uh, homosexual people, um, all sorts of different minoritized groups,
right? The experience of women in sport different. Um, you asked me about race, so we'll kind of
stick with that. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, the other thing that I talk about a lot is
(36:20):
highly charged racialized events. So over in the UK, a couple of weeks ago, we had, um, like some
really big protests about supposedly about immigration. It's basically about racism. Um,
well, loads of people came out and were rioting on the streets and setting fire to hotels that
were supposedly, uh, housing loads of immigrants. Now, my experience of watching that on the news
(36:46):
is very different to somebody who maybe is racialized as white, seeing that on the news,
because I'm seeing people who look like me being targeted and being harassed and abused and
experiencing racial violence. So every time I see that on the television over and over and over
again, and it's broadcast into our homes on the news over and over and over again, like that has
(37:08):
an impact. And we know that there's research to say that kind of these, these highly racialized
events have a disproportionate impact on, on people of color. Um, so yeah, beginning with
that understanding of, of that, um, I think is, is the key to seeing how stress might affect
different minoritized groups in different ways over and above kind of just a normal daily stresses
(37:32):
of performance. Yeah. Wow. Uh, thanks for sharing that. That paints a vivid image, at least in my
mind, actually, maybe you could touch on this, but let me first, um, well, yeah, let me get your
experience and then Pete maybe can chime in based off of that. How, from a leadership perspective
(37:56):
to make, I mean, if we're just talking about race here and with you, actually it's, it's women and
whatever it might be, whatever demographics it might be. I know, I know races are focused, but
from a leadership perspective, how do they go about facilitating a healthy, safe environment? Is it
just grabbing the minorities of the team of the culture and having focus groups? Is it
(38:22):
bringing everybody together and talking openly about these issues so that people
feel psychologically safe to bring up these types of topics and the, and the team and the culture?
Ashley, have you experienced anything like this in your professional career where coaches have,
and maybe they've done just the opposite, where they've done a horrible job of being inclusive
and safe or healthy, or maybe they've done a great job? I don't know. Can you, can you touch on that?
(38:44):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think first and foremost, it's important, especially like me
as a captain on my team, being in a leadership role is you have to know each and every one of your
players on an individual level. And I feel like if you don't, then it's really hard to serve them to
the best of your ability and to know what they want. Cause I, everyone wants something that's
(39:08):
different. Some people may like it to bring the group together and, and have a really good, open,
honest discussion. Some people might not like that. They might want smaller groups or they might want
groups or they might want people reaching out to them on an individual, more like intimate
conversation. So I think it's just having a pulse for what your team wants and what they need.
And also making sure that you take extra care of those people who maybe are in a minority that
(39:32):
might not have as big of a voice as the majority of the group. So yeah, I think it's, I've been on
different teams that have handled things different ways and I've been under different leadership. And
so I feel like I've, I've learned a lot. But I think first and foremost, the best first step is
to have a relationship with every single one of your players on an individual level. And so that
(39:54):
they know that you genuinely care about them as a person and that's a great place to start. And then
you can move forward from there and how to maybe address issues or to address a team, or if there's
something going on in the locker room, I think if you don't have that foundation, then it's really
hard to solve problems and make people feel seen and heard. So that's, that's how I've approached
(40:16):
it. That's how I've had other leaders approach things, you know, when I've been on teams,
but I think that's the best place to start. Yeah. Pete, can you concur based off kind of from the
literature or your own experience? What would be some more tactical approach? Yeah, I mean, I,
I, I can't, I can't agree more with what Ashley just said that it's about feeling the pulse of
(40:37):
the team and kind of understanding, you know, the, the perhaps individual wants and needs and reading
the temperature of the room, you know, it can be really powerful to have, you know, the whole team
there with people sharing their experiences of, you know, what, whatever it is that's, that's been
happening, whether there's been, you know, like racial violence in the news or whatever it might
(41:00):
be, that can be a really powerful thing, but you also have to understand that if you're asking
people to share their experiences, that puts people in a really vulnerable position and they
may not want to be in that position. So it really is just about like understanding your players,
understanding your team so that you can have those types of discussions individually and get a feel
(41:25):
for what might be like the most useful thing to do. Nothing's going to be perfect for everybody.
Um, but I think like one of the, one of the most powerful things that leaders can probably do is
to allow the space for their athletes to talk if they want to talk and to not talk if they don't
want to talk. Um, so you can't force people to do stuff. Um, but equally you have to allow them.
(41:54):
And I think we've seen a lot of this in, um, like the social justice movement when athletes are
really passionate about participating in social justice activities and movements. And, you know,
I think it's really important in those times and in those moments to allow athletes to use their
voice if they want to use it. Um, but yeah, it really is, like I said, I couldn't agree more
(42:20):
with what Ashley just said there about like reading the temperature of the room, you know,
feel the pulse, have that relationship with individual athletes. And I think that's
pleased to see what might be the most appropriate course of action. Yeah. Yeah. I love the
individual individuality component to that. I think it's really, really important. In fact,
(42:44):
I was talking about this a number of years ago with some grad students and how important it is
to do this, to help people feel that safety. And then one comment came up and it was a great comment
from a student. They said, well, American football, there's 120 plus athletes on the team.
How do you individually as a head coach, like make time with already an 80 hour work week
(43:09):
to individually sit down and make somebody feel that safety or allow that safety to exist?
And then my comment was, well, how many coaches are on the team? There's, there's a reason American
football has 30, 25 coaches, staff members. And it's not just to, you know, be a better quarterback
(43:33):
or be a better receiver or be a better running back. It's, I think in my mind, especially from
the holistic lens, so that that individuality component can in theory still exist even on
enlarged sporting environments like American football, where you do have a lot of athletes
on the team. So anyways, it was an interesting, interesting comment. Pete, I want to get your
(43:57):
take on this. Pulling continuing to pull on this thread. John Amici, I know who you know,
who was the guest on your podcast at some point. For those that don't know, he's I think British
American, he's a dual citizenship, if I'm not mistaken. He's an organizational psychologist,
(44:18):
wrote an amazing book called find your inner giant. I think the official title that right.
But he talks very openly, very eloquent, the promise of giants, sorry, the promise of
just looking at my book self disorder, trying to make sure that's right. Yeah, the promises of
giants, giants was in there because he's a giant, he's so big. He played in the NBA for a number of
(44:41):
years. He's an organizational psychologist. He's a black man. He's a gay man. And so I want to ask
you, Pete, what have you learned from this individual from john, in terms of better
understanding, you know, race and culture and its integration within sport, especially curious.
(45:03):
Oh, wow. I mean, I had john on the podcast a few years ago. And if I can plug my own podcast,
it was just it was such a good conversation. It was such an amazing conversation. And I'm kind
of really fortunate enough since then to be able to say that, like john's a friend of mine now.
(45:26):
And we talk about all sorts of stuff. And we talk a lot about race and racism and
and like how that manifests itself in sport. And he's just he's such a stoic and like gentle
character and very measured in everything that he says and very measured in his responses to things.
(45:54):
And I mean, I'd like I'd like to say I've taken that on board, but I'm not I'm absolutely the
opposite. I'm like reactionary and goby. And yeah. But yeah, you know, I think I think it's hard to
(46:19):
say what have I learned from? Yeah. I mean, like I said, just that sort of way of being really
measured in the way that you might respond to some of this stuff. Because there's a lot of it out
there. You know, we see it all the time. And I did the UK and the US are very, very different
(46:44):
in a lot of ways, but also very, very similar in a lot of ways. And racism is a huge part of society
in both of those different cultures. And like I said, I'm a bit mouthy and a bit goby, but I
certainly think that they're kind of trying to be a little bit more a bit more measured
(47:06):
in my approach is something I would say that I've learned from from John.
Yeah, there we can see the self awareness skill set coming. Right.
I have two more quick questions. One's a silly one. And one is more serious. Okay. Do you have
anything you'd like to ask Pete? I guess one question that I probably should ask the very
(47:31):
beginning is how did you get into this profession in the first place? Like what was it that led you
to have the desire to work not only on the psychological side of performance, but specifically
coaches because I feel like that perspective is very unique. Like you said, a lot of the
conversations stem around athletes, but I think it's just as important for coaches, especially
(47:56):
since they're leading their athletes. So what initially sparked your interest and your passion
to continue to take your career to where it is right now? So I mean, partly pure accident,
if I'm brutally honest. But I suppose I started off studying psychology and I didn't really know
(48:20):
that sports psychology was a thing. I didn't really know that existed. So I did my undergraduate
degree in psychology, but I played basketball and I coached basketball from when I was pretty young
and I kept on playing and I did a little bit of coaching as well throughout university.
And when I finished my undergraduate degree, I was still playing, I'm still coaching a couple
(48:41):
of the university teams as well. Purely by accident, I found out about sports psychology.
This was like four years after my undergrad. So I went back to do my master's degree, my PhD,
and it kind of made sense when it was coming to choose a topic for my PhD. I thought, well,
I know that coaching is stressful because I've done it. At the time, there wasn't a lot,
(49:06):
there was some research on coaching. So I wouldn't say that it was like a unique perspective. There's
a lot of people out there doing some really, really good research into coaching performance.
But at the time, there wasn't a huge amount. So it was kind of like a sort of logical thing for me
to study. And like I said, I started off looking at stress and coping and then sort of morphed into
(49:29):
looking at burnout and sort of wellbeing and like this idea of sustainable wellbeing, which Karen
Haglund and Joran Kenta over in Sweden did some really good work on coaching sustainability. So
I have to give them a little bit of a shout out as well for that. Awesome. That's cool. Yeah.
(49:51):
Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to see how people got into what they're passionate
about. And I feel like oftentimes it is usually by accident or we're following one path and we
realize we like it and it takes us one direction and then we find ourselves where we're at. So
I think that's really cool. Thanks for sharing. Pulling on that life thread. Here's my serious
(50:13):
question. And it's serious, but I'm not like, okay, everybody get ready. Here we go. I love
the question of tell us a time when you failed and what did you learn as a result of that experience?
And this can be Pete for you in academia, research, teaching. This can be in coaching. This can be
(50:36):
in relationships. You pick the domain. But when was the time where you failed, like you failed
and what did you learn as a result of that? I mean, I fail all the time every day.
I like, you know, I'm deadly serious about that. It's really hard to kind of pick one
when I was doing my A levels. So I don't know what the equivalent of that is in the U S but it's
(51:00):
like the end of senior high school. Okay. SATs, I guess, maybe, I don't know. But I was doing my
A levels and needed like an A and two Bs to get into university. Got my two Bs and completely failed
the other one. Totally failed it. Had to go back to college and I did end up doing a couple more
(51:21):
A levels. Did psychology and sociology. Ended up doing, you know, university. So it all worked out.
But failed then and learned that, you know, I thought I was kind of nailed on to get what I wanted.
Didn't. So, you know, I had to kind of pick myself up off the floor. You know, disappointed,
pretty gutted. But learned that, okay, well, I'm resilient. I can, you know, I can come back from
(51:48):
this and I did and I am where I am now. I've failed at numerous research studies. I've got so
many research studies that are just like on the cutting room floor. You know, you start something
and like for one reason or another, it just doesn't work out. What am I learning about myself
(52:12):
while I'm doing all this? I don't really know. I guess just that, you know, I'm good at keeping
on going. And I think I'm good at realizing what it is that's actually important. So I try not to
fail at the important stuff. I don't know. I was going to say like being a good father, but again,
(52:40):
like I messed that up all the time. But who doesn't? But it's just trying to sort of
reorient yourself. That's it. Maybe that's what I'm talking about. So is it a really long winded and
winding answer to a fairly straightforward question? But I guess it's like thinking about
like values, right? And like I do a lot of work based around acceptance, commitment therapy,
(53:00):
right? Values is a big part of that understanding like what your compass direction is in
lots of different, different areas and understanding that you're going to fail all the time.
That's kind of where I started, right? I fail all the time, but it's about noticing when that's
happening and just reorienting yourself. And through experience and just through failing over
(53:21):
and over and over again, you get good at noticing when it's happening and you get good at
reorienting to moving in the direction of what's important to you. I should have just said that at
the start instead of waffling for like two minutes. I don't know.
You reoriented yourself to get to that answer. I failed at that question. You're practicing it right now.
I failed to answer your question, noticed that I was failing and then reoriented myself.
(53:44):
That's fabulous. I love that word reoriented, reorientation. I know I just experienced that.
Pete, my wife left for four days. We have two small kids. I had to reorient myself like
three billion different times. It was unbelievable. The moment she left, like chaos just ensued and it
(54:07):
didn't stop until she got back. And so resilient. I mean, you said resilience and you said
reorientation. Those things definitely came into play and trying to be a dad. Oh my gosh.
Awesome. Okay. Here's my last silly question. And then we're going to
cut you loose. You're ready for my silly question? Go for it. I'll try and do a better job of answering it.
(54:29):
I know. Here we go. So I'm a Chelsea supporter. Yeah. Okay. Someone's going to be. I need to ask
from someone who lives in the UK. Yeah. Is Chelsea the equivalent of supporting the Lakers?
Is Chelsea the equivalent of supporting the Lakers here in the States? Because if it is,
(54:54):
I'm not going to really support Chelsea anymore because I do not like the Lakers. And so who would
you equate like either NBA or NFL to Chelsea? That's a good question. Man City, etc. Yeah.
That's a good question. Because what happened was Chelsea came into like a load of money,
didn't they? And the kind of like 2000s, early 2000s. And they were like amazing for a while.
(55:17):
And everybody started supporting them because they were amazing and they had loads of money. So they
just bought everyone who's really good. And now they're less good. So I'm trying to think of like
an equivalent in the NBA. The Lakers is a good one, but that kind of makes sense to me. They kind of,
(55:38):
you know, team with a sort of history of doing really well. And now they're kind of like just
struggling and struggling, you know, so that that makes sense. Lakers. Yeah. Okay.
Why can I ask, can I ask why Chelsea? Why? So it started with Christian Pulisic when he was
playing for Chelsea and I've always weirdly followed Frank Lampard, even though he's not
(56:03):
associated with the club anymore. I've just, I liked when he was playing and I liked when he was
the manager and I wanted a team. I wanted to pick a team in the premier league. And so for me,
it was like, okay, well, you know, Christian plays for him and I like Frank Lampard. And so I'm going
to roll with Chelsea. And that was like four, five years ago. Yeah. Six years ago. Maybe.
(56:26):
Frank Lampard was a brilliant fantasy football league captain. Rock solid every week. Goal and
assist solid. Hey, well, thank you so, so, so much again. This in my humble opinion has been
(56:46):
fabulous. And so we want to thank you for your insight, for your wisdom and for being willing
to take time out of your day, your night, because it is nighttime there to do this. So Pete, thank
you. I appreciate you for hopping on here. Yeah. Thank you so much. You're more than welcome. I
really appreciate the invitation and the questions and I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. So
(57:12):
thank you both so much. It was seriously like I came in like, okay, I want to just geek out for
I know for years, years and years. Yeah. And so I'm like, okay, but I, you know, we have to keep it
at 45 minutes and of course I have a host. So I need to like tone down on some of my
No, it was no, it was great. It was great. I really enjoyed it. And you can just tell that
(57:37):
he's just so full of knowledge and wisdom. And so it was fun to hear all of his answers and his
perspective. Well, let me ask you first, Ash, you, you don't know him. You didn't really know of him.
What's your impression? What was that like having a conversation with Pete?
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. I, like I said, I really enjoyed his answers and him just sharing
(58:00):
his knowledge and wisdom. You could just tell he's a very, very wise man, but just how calm
and collected he was and how thoughtful his answers were. I, like you said, I feel like I
could have sat here for a couple more hours and just geeked out as well and learn more about like
his research and his studies, the ones that were successful and published and whatnot. But, but
(58:26):
yeah, I really enjoyed it. I think we need to have him on again, because I would love to hear his
perspective on burnout, especially from coaches and athletes perspective. And I think what we were
talking about at the end, the reorient, orientating yourself. I'm curious if that's a common theme when
it comes to burnout with athletes and coaches, because it's something that I feel like everyone
(58:48):
will face at some point or another in their lives. But yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for inviting
him on. What were your takeaways? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. 100% I think we should have him
back on, because there were two, three, I just off the top of my head, three other kind of main
topics that I wanted to kind of touch on. But in 45 minutes to an hour, it's just hard to unpack all
(59:15):
of these really broad, deep topics. But burnout definitely is one I think we'll have on our radar.
I yeah, I love speaking to him. Again, I'm kind of a geek over this stuff and his work and his podcast
and everything really he's done for the past four or five years is for me has been amazing and so
influential in my own life, my own, especially professional life, obviously, in sports psychology.
(59:41):
So that alone for me is amazing and just super interesting. But another reason why I really like
Pete, and you'll, you'll see this for those that follow him on social media and or listen to his
podcast. He's so down to earth. Like, for me, I love the people that are out of this world intelligent,
(01:00:02):
but just like t shirt, chill, you know, talks about really mundane, kind of everyday life type of
things. Oh, and he can unpack existential phenomenological concepts, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Like he's he can do both of those. And that's many of the two or three of the many reasons why I really
(01:00:24):
enjoy following him. And I'm hopeful that the listeners will at least semi, right, semi geek out
over some of the stuff that I'm geeking out over. Oh, yeah, for sure. Yes, we'll see. Yeah. I think
everyone will enjoy it. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Okay. Uh, that yeah, that's a wrap for our final episode
(01:00:46):
of season one. I know it's crazy. It's coming to an end. Wait, so are we doing do we need to talk
about a like a bonus thing? Or is that hush hush? Did I just screw it up? No, we can talk about it.
Um, we still are working on the q&a. So if people have we have a few, a handful of questions, if
people have any more that they'd like to submit, it's your final chance. So submit your questions
(01:01:12):
and we'll we'll get back to you all with a bonus episode that will come out at a pre or a to be
to be determined time. So bye, everybody. Bye till next time.
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