April 21, 2025 • 36 mins
Jude is joined by the author of Love Hacks: Ten Skills For Making Your Relationships More Life Giving and pastor of Restoration Church in Denver, CO, Ron Johnson. They discuss how divorced dads can have a healthier relationship after divorce by learning what they want in a woman and relationship as well as how to create a deeper attachment the second time around.
Let’s break it down—what you can control, what you can’t, and what to do about it.
Join our Signal Channel: https://shorturl.at/8yqTb
Join The Divorce Dadvocate Membership Community - FULL Episodes - Live Meetings – FREE Workshops & Courses – Private Discussion Groups & MORE! - https://thedivorceddadvocate.com/membership-tiers/
How Are You Adjusting To Your Divorce? Find out in this quiz - http://www.thedivorceddadvocate.com/divorce-quiz.html
*FREE Dads Guide To Divorce* How to survive and thrive during and after divorce: http://www.dadsguidetodivorce.com
Don't suffer in silence! Get relief from the pain and confusion of your divorce and schedule your FREE, No Obligation Coaching Consultation - schedule a time directly into my schedule at www.TalkWithJude.com.
Join other divorced dads who have experienced or are experiencing divorce in this FREE Divorced Dads Online Meetup Group - https://www.meetup.com/Divorced-Dads-Meetup-Group/
Other Resources:
The Divorced Dadvocate Website - http://www.TheDivorcedDadvocate.com
The Divorced Dadvocate YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSwx-F8KK4&list=PLT4HyN5ishYJznK51205ESxGZ2d19YkBp
The Divorced Dadvocate Podcast - https://thedivorceddadvocate.buzzsprout.com/
Divorced Dads Online Meetup Group - https://www.meetup.com/Divorced-Dads-Meetup-Group/
The Divorced Dadvocate Facebook Group - https://www.facebook.com/thedivorceddadvocate/
Music credit: Akira the Don
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello and welcome to the Divorced Dadvocates, where
we help dads create a healthierand less traumatic divorce.
My name is Jude Sandvall andI'm your host, and today we are
going to be talking about lovehacks.
But first I wanted to thankeverybody who has been
(00:36):
downloading and listening to thepodcast.
We are approaching 10,000downloads, which is absolutely
amazing, at least for me.
So I'm not Joe Rogan, but forme, 10,000 is an amazing
milestone and I appreciateeverybody that's listening.
And let's just continue.
The community is continuing tobuild share like this, share it
(00:59):
with other divorced dads andlet's keep the momentum going.
We've got some workshops comingup another class August 22nd so
let's just keep it rolling.
So today, my guest is known forhis commitment to making
disciples and planting churches.
He has personally started fourchurches in the urban centers of
(01:20):
San Francisco, california, andmy hometown of Denver, colorado.
He currently pastorsRestoration Church here in
Denver, which has beeninstrumental in starting over 40
traditional churches and, in2019, was counted among the top
10 multiplying churches in theUS by Outreach Magazine.
(01:41):
He has a BA in psychology fromWichita State University, a
master's in divinity from GoldenState Seminary and a master of
arts in biblical counseling fromColorado Christian University.
He's married to Carissa and isthe father of five children.
And if that all is not enough,he is the author of the newly
(02:05):
released book titled Love Hacks10 Skills for Making your
Relationships More Life-Giving.
Please help me welcome RonJohnson.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Hey, so great to meet you, Jude.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Thanks for being here .
Speaker 2 (02:20):
You did a great job building your podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Hey, I know, I know that that happens in about one
minute with Joe Rogan and someof these other guys, but hey,
that's been a year long, about ayear long push here, which you
know it's, it's baby steps, butthat's okay, that's, that's
exciting, we're just it's.
I'm just so, so blessed andthen so, absolutely ecstatic the
(02:43):
growth and the community that'sstarting to build.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I appreciate what you're doing.
I mean, I'm a divorced dad.
I remember being a single dadand how over my head I felt all
the time, and so what you'redoing is really important and
there's a huge need for it.
So thank you for serving us.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Well, it's my pleasure and on that note.
So, love Hacks, you justreleased that no-transcript.
(03:18):
So you know, maybe tell us alittle bit about yourself and
then maybe a little bit aboutthat kind of the just prep
things for talking about thebook sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So uh grew up over the country, became a christ
follower at 16.
I was pre-med in college, feltcalled to go into ministry.
Just a weird night where I hadprobably too much caffeine but
uh made a huge pivot, didn'teven go to church but started
just doing all the ministry.
And then uh met my, my fore.
She was the girl next door andmet her through a friend and
(03:50):
then we married at the age of 23.
So pretty young.
We were married for 26 yearsand have three amazing kids to
show for.
Our marriage had a verydifficult marriage.
Discover, discovered prettyearly on about some of the
mental issues that she faced andweathered five affairs over the
(04:10):
course of 26 years that she had.
I coped and medicated myselfwith just trying to be
successful in ministry.
I got more love at work.
Usually I came home.
That was a big issue on my sideof the fence.
I came in with not a whole lotof tools when I came to
emotional intelligence orunderstanding what I was dealing
with, and so we we did our bestand got a lot of counseling.
(04:33):
I got that second master'sdegree you mentioned earlier
trying to figure myself out,trying to stay in my own
marriage.
We probably spent gosh maybe 6070 thousand dollars on therapy
trying to figure us out.
And then, uh, finally she, uh,she found somebody else and
decided to call it quits, so gotgot divorced, uh, which had
been uh, nine years ago, no,like eight years ago got
(04:57):
divorced and then thought I'dnever get married again.
I kind of made a vow.
I went out with a reallywonderful woman but you just
tell, she wasn't able to attach.
She'd gone through a lot ofdifficulty in her previous
marriage.
Her husband left her forsomebody else.
So I thought, man, I'm notgoing to get hurt again, I'm not
going to date, I'm just goingto love my church.
I'm going to plant a lot ofchurches, I'm going to hunt fish
(05:18):
, I'm going to buy an Airstreamand dine a trailer with a dog
just go out that way.
and uh, and they got out of theplan.
So I had immense group singleguys were all divorced.
I go, hey, you guys have toteach me to be single again.
And they go well, make you adeal, we'll do that and you help
us grow in the ways of jesus.
(05:39):
One of the guys in that groupintroduced me to carissa.
So I go, well, prayed about fortwo weeks.
I go, all right, I'll I let herback in the water and go out
with her.
And uh, the rest of the historyfell off very quickly.
Super healthy woman, never beenmarried, uh, younger than me.
And thought about that in mylist of what I want and don't
want to do about the age.
(05:59):
But uh, you know, guys are wecan quickly adjust to being with
somebody younger than us.
Sure, we do.
So we got married five yearsago and we have two great kids,
a two-year-old and athree-year-old.
Never thought I'd be a dad at 58again.
But here I am.
Wow, keeps you young.
Yeah, it's either aging me ormaking me younger, I'm not sure,
(06:20):
but maybe both, I guess, butshe's been a joy.
Or making me younger, I'm notsure, but maybe both, I guess,
but she's been a joy Like.
Our marriage is really great,very, very strong.
I mean I tell people all thetime I can do anything with
Carissa, I can clean toiletswith Carissa and it's a good day
and I think it's this guy'sgrace and gift in my life.
And, yeah, a lot of healingtook place from my therapy and
doing divorce recovery groupsand just time, but she's been
(06:44):
the key catalyst to my healing.
Just having somebody who knowsme, sees me and loves me the way
she does.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
That's phenomenal.
So so I what I really?
I really appreciate the lovehacks book because it's
something after reading Ithought, oh, I I wish I had this
in my twenties, right Before Igot before well, actually before
that, with my teens maybe, whenI started to date, and because,
like so many men, I didn't haveanybody that really taught me
(07:12):
how to date, taught me what tothink about, what to look for in
your 10 love hacks are reallythat it's a guide for, okay,
this is kind of a step-by-stepprocess to kind of you know, and
it's not in intimate detail,but kind of what you need to be
thinking about when you'redating, before you start to make
(07:34):
that commitment.
So my question, my firstquestion, is so was it after
your healthy relationship withCarissa that you were like, okay
, now I kind of got this figuredout, maybe I can write some of
this down?
What kind of prompted you towrite?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Thank you for asking.
I got to think back so I did aseries at restoration called
love hacks.
I've done it twice now.
So I did it three years ago andseveral people go.
You need to turn that into abook.
That was really, really helpful.
So I go and I've been asked towrite books in the past.
I've never considered myself anauthor.
Candidly, I don't considermyself to be much of one.
(08:11):
Now I'm more of a leader and achurch planning catalyst.
I love pastoring people.
People kept saying you need toturn that into a book.
I sent the manuscripts to India,I had them transcribed, then I
literally worked like five to 10minutes by three or four days a
week right up until I publishedit, cause I just didn't have a
lot of time.
I got married, got kids.
You know I've got a lot ofresponsibilities, but I think
(08:35):
what prompted it was kind ofwhat you just said.
I wish I had this kind of abook when I was younger.
And then I thought I would loveto have this book right after I
got divorced, because I have achapter on divorce, remarriage
and I just watched a lot of myfriends go through a divorce and
then make the exact samemistake like basically married
the same woman with a differenthair color and right back in the
(08:57):
same place, and that is themost painful thing to watch.
It's one.
It's hard to go through onedivorce divorce, but to go
through multiple and for thesame reasons, right.
So I thought I'm going to writea book and talk about things
like you know what to look forin a maid and you know how to,
how to, how to think aboutintimacy in a different way and
and talk about really what I'velearned is the bond, is the
(09:19):
marriage.
I look at my previous marriage.
I realized we never had a bondLike that.
Deep attachment was never there.
So we kept trying to rekindlesomething that didn't exist,
right.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So those are some of the motivating factors for me.
Right.
So there's 10 love hacks.
The one, when I was reading itand when I was listening to you,
that struck me was the most wasthe one that you just just hit
on a little bit was, uh, wasyour third one, which building
intimacy and and how youdescribe that with the
(09:50):
difference, uh, the differentstrands, and and how that
creates.
Talk us through that just a alittle bit, because I think it's
incredibly important,particularly for those of those
men that are interested again ingetting into a relationship but
are very afraid of making thosesame mistakes like you did.
Now, you know, those are theones that are much smarter than
(10:12):
me, that are listening, becauseI did what you described like
get back in the nextrelationship.
Pow, you know, bang your headagainst the wall.
Get in the next one.
Bang my head against the walluntil I finally figured out oh
yeah, I'm the common denominator.
So I started figuring myselfout and then now I'm finally
healthy, where I can get into arelationship.
But I hear from a lot of men oh, I'm a little bit afraid.
(10:34):
What are some steps?
That one I really, really liked.
Talk with us about that alittle bit.
Let me get right to it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'll get to chapter three.
I'll get a little context.
So, on that note, I wrote Ithink it's chapter one.
I don't have the index in frontof me where I went to look for
to mate.
Yes, I had a lot of guys havethe wrong list, so I'm trying to
get some help with getting theright list.
I think you know I had my listpartly on point, partly off, and
like, for example, I went outwith somebody who was healthy in
(11:01):
so many ways but notemotionally healed yet.
So give me a little checklist.
But the reason chapter threewas written was because of my
experience that led to chaptertwo.
I went to my therapist one day.
He'd seen us.
He was our marriage therapist.
He knew my ex really, reallywell.
We'd seen him for every decadeand there's things you can say
to somebody after their marriageis over.
(11:24):
You cannot say to them whenthey are married that first,
because every therapist wants tokeep the marriage together if
they're a good therapist, unlessit's a super toxic and
unhealthy, of course.
And he told me you were neverreally married.
I said we're married for 26years.
The formula says I got to payalimony for 13 years.
What do you?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
mean you're married.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Like to have known that before I went to court and
he said, uh, no, you never had abond.
I go, wow, see, and I just keptasking questions what is bond?
What's the nature of?
Why is it so important?
And he said, yeah, you kepttrying to rebuild something that
never was there.
It's like when're gonna rebuildthe fire.
But you know, spark, becauseyou never had one.
It wasn't like we didn't havean attraction, we didn't have
(12:04):
things in common and we neverlove each other, but that deep
attachment he said that was notthere.
That had to own part of that.
But I also, because of theabuse in the past, my ex, I
don't, she just couldn't't giveher heart in such ways to truly
attach.
And then he said, you know, youshould do some Bible saying
this.
So I went to Genesis, went backand I've been reading all the
passages in divorce, remarriage.
(12:25):
And I went to Genesis 2.24because there's a principle in
interpreting scripture.
It's called the principle offirst mention.
Anytime there's a first mentionof a topic, you go okay, this
is a direction for everythingelse.
And I know some of yourlisteners are Christians, some
are not, and some of them havethe Bible and some don't.
But if you look at, you can lookat Genesis as being a
(12:46):
theological treatise, or you canlook at it archetypally, if
you're not a Christian, if youwant.
You got the first marriage, yougot Adam and Eve and you have
this sort of this purpose thatis given to them.
It's like a teleologicalprinciple.
Here's what the purpose ofmarriage is for a principle.
That's in Genesis 2.24.
And it says for this reason, aman will leave his father and
(13:08):
mother and be united to his wifeand they will become one flesh.
So, being a nerd, a Bible nerd,I got into the Hebrew very
in-depth and the word there forunited it is debak, and debak in
Hebrew means to bond or toattach, and so what is being
said there is the bond, is themarriage.
(13:29):
Before there was weddingceremonies and the institutional
marriage and the multi-billiondollar wedding.
You know that sort of sector ofsociety out there I would see a
couple like some penultimatecouple and they'd be talking
about whatever the upside oftheir diet or something, and
then he would see how there wasan attachment between the two of
(13:50):
them and he'd say, okay, nowthat's what I'm talking about,
that's marriage.
They've got this deep, deepbond.
Yeah, we still need vows and weneed to sign up license,
because that kind of protectsthe bond, it sort of validates
the bond, it picks the bondpublic, but the bond precedes
the vows, and that's what reallyis marriage.
So then the next thing is oneflesh.
(14:10):
So the result of the bond is aone flesh relationship.
One flesh means intimacy.
So I began to think about that.
What's the meaning of a?
One flesh means intimacy.
So I began to think about that.
What's the meaning of a oneflesh relationship?
It's obviously a sexualmetaphor, but it's way more than
that.
And so as I began to unpack thescriptures and look at what it
means to have an intimaterelationship, I came up with six
strands, like a rope.
Yeah, and need all six strandsto have a strong marriage.
(14:32):
And the the cool thing is, youknow, the intimacy is what
creates a life-giving marriage.
But most guys, when they thinkintimacy, first they think of
sex.
Then they might think ofsomething else, like, hey, a
buddy to go to games with, or apartner in life.
That makes them less lonely.
But we need a more full-orbedunderstanding of intimacy.
And the cool thing is, asintimacy grows, the bond gets
(14:54):
stronger and so the relationshipgets stronger.
The bond gets stronger and sothe relationship gets stronger.
So the six strands of the rope,as I try to articulate them in
the book, are, you know, firstof all you have the intellectual
strand, like a mental,intellectual connection.
You talk about things that areinteresting to you, whether it
be, you know, a hobby you share,or maybe you you're into wine
or politics, whatever.
But there's got to be anintellectual engagement in order
(15:17):
to have intimacy.
Then there's the physicalstrands.
The physical strand is notsexual, it's touch, it's
affection, it's being near eachother.
There's a law called the law ofpropinquity.
It states that the more timeyou spend with somebody, the
(15:37):
more likely it is you're goingto become more affectionate
towards them, the moreemotionally connected to them.
Then there's the emotionalstrand, which, if you look at
most of the research now onattachment, like I'm talking
about, like oh gosh, what is hisname now?
The guy that wrote SevenPrinciples of Marriage?
Why Marriage is Gottman, johnGottman Most research indicates
if you don't have a deepemotional connection.
Sue Johnson, her researchindicates the same thing.
(15:58):
She's written a book calledhold me tight.
The emotional connection is socritical to strengthening the
bond, like being known andknowing the other person, being
able to read their feelings andbeing able to develop the eq to
have a deep emotional connectionsuper important right.
And of course you have thesexual connection.
All the research indicates ifyou have a strong emotional
connection, the sex is going totake care of itself.
(16:21):
All the therapists like to saythis that all the therapies that
are designed to focus ontechnique are very
non-efficacious.
They don't really lead to goodsex.
If it's the emotionalconnection sex is going to
happen, then let's see what am Iforgetting here?
What I call the missionalstrand of the book Having a
common purpose, a common commonmission, is really important.
(16:42):
And then the spiritualconnection, like right, there's
research that indicates that ifyou share intimate requests on a
regular basis like preferablydaily and pray together, you
have less than a 1% chance ofgetting a divorce.
So there's research like GeorgeBarna.
He's a researcher on the WestCoast.
He did a bunch of research.
(17:03):
He found that couples that dothat on a regular basis,
preferably daily, have less thana 1% chance of getting a
divorce.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Wow, that's phenomenal.
So at least you had a list ofwants, right, which is the first
thing, right?
I just and a lot of guys arejust, oh, she's good looking,
right, or you know she's reallyhot, let's go out.
And then they get stuck in that, right, you get stuck in that.
And there's a book called theTactical Guide to Women and I've
(17:38):
got it right here by Sean Smith, who's actually out of Denver,
colorado also, and he talksabout that also of like
understanding who you are andwhat you want, and your list of
wants, which you referred toalso, because you can't really,
it's kind of like going shoppingfor anything for a car, right,
if you don't know that you needa truck or a car or whatever,
how are you going to go out?
(17:58):
You're just going to go out andlike the first car that you see
, you're going to buy it.
Not that we're.
I mean, that's kind of ageneric analogy, right?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Not that we're comparing women to trucks, or
they do in some country songs.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
But we're not saying that at all, it's just the
philosophy and idea around that.
But then once you do buildingthat attachment and all of those
different attachments that youjust described.
And so to take what you'resaying is, you described it as
the four strands, as a rope, andif you look and you pull apart
a rope, you've got differentstrands like that, and if you
(18:33):
pull them up, if you pull eachone apart, each one itself is
not very strong, but when theytwist them together and then you
pull each one apart, each oneitself is not very strong, but
when they twist them togetherand then you pull them, it makes
it much, much stronger andbuilds a tension on that that is
very, very strong for a verylong time, lest something breaks
or something.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I think those strands should inform our list.
So I actually had a list of 48qualities, which is pretty
psycho yeah, she's got to bephenomenal.
Well, I had five non-essentialsand then, uh, no, I had 43
non-essentials and fiveessentials.
Okay, my essentials wereinformed by my understanding of
intimacy not completely, but Igo, okay, uh, must be able to
(19:17):
attach.
Like, a lot of women cannotattach, they give the hard way
over and over again.
And us guys, we gotta take someresponsibility for this.
Like we, a lot of us, areserial women damagers.
Candidly, we we go in, we knowhow to like, woo and and seduce
and then get what we want.
Then we go, hey, moving on.
Well, that happens often enoughto a woman and she's like I'm
(19:38):
not giving my heart to any guy,cause they all do the same thing
to me.
So right, yeah, but a lot ofwomen just flat can't attach
that they're just so broken.
Unless they do a lot of work,they don't attach.
So I go, can she attach theyreally truly love and pursue God
(20:03):
?
And then I had a few otherthings.
I honestly didn't just love mebut liked me.
But I needed both, I think myspouse tried to love me, but I
don't think she really liked memy first spouse.
So I had my five qualities.
I had a bunch of just goofystuff that I could take or leave
, like loves to backpack, likesto travel.
So I go hey, this is nice tohave, but I don't have to have
(20:23):
these things.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Right and being intentional about that and then
being intentional about theattachment part of it, I feel is
huge also, and Scott Stanley'sgot a great book called the
Power of Commitment along thoselines.
That talks about beingintentional and writing a list,
having things, understanding thesix strands that you need to
(20:48):
develop and then going forwardin developing that for the, for
the relationship, as opposed tolike I described and like I was
guilty of, right as dating.
She's really good looking.
I like being out with her.
Oh, you know, let's date somemore.
Oh, we're going to have sex.
Oh, we're having sex.
Oh, we're.
(21:08):
You know we're going to move intogether.
Oh, you know not.
And then he calls it backsliding.
And then it gets to the pointyou're like well, let's get
married.
Oh, well, that's, you know,that's backsliding, that's not.
That doesn't build a solidrelationship, that doesn't build
intimacy, that's notcommitments.
None of that is.
The is a recipe for a, for asuccessful marriage, and that's
(21:33):
what.
That's what I did.
So what?
What are some of the challengesthat you see for for men and
women in general, or or divorceddads also, in building that,
those strands, and and creatingthat, that intimacy and that
bond?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
we just described the most common pattern.
You see again men and women,yeah, either before they have
their first marriage or afterthey're they've been divorced,
or kind of back in the game is.
That's the exact pattern.
You find somebody you'reattracted to, so okay, well,
great, you got an attraction.
Strand attraction is important.
We tend to overrate it, as guys, we kind of want the nines and
(22:10):
the tens or confuse it as loveas love.
Yeah, we think we thinkattraction is love and often
than just to be frank, you know,a lot of the nines and tens
have not had to work on theircharacter or their emotional
intelligence or their spirituallife and so lacking a lot of the
tools that guys really need tohave a really important or like
a really life-giving bond withsomebody.
(22:32):
So we go with attraction, thenwe get sexually, you know,
involved and when that happens,tons of research on the
physiology, tons of oxytocinit's related, you know released.
We start bonding to somebody atthat level without having those
other strands of connection.
So if a sexual connection wehave, an attraction we might
enjoy doing certain thingstogether.
We got a golf buddy, forexample, a biking buddy, but we,
(22:54):
we, that becomes the uh, theprimary currency of the
relationship and then we don'tdevelop the strands that are
actually going to help ussustain and mature a marriage
and mature the love of themarriage, which are the
emotional, spiritual andintellectual strands and the
missional strands.
Like we have the same values,are we heading towards the same
goals, like right?
(23:15):
So I would say, you know,become self-aware of these
different types of intimacy thatare important for a marriage
and then put that on your listyeah, so am I.
Is this woman emotionallyhealthy?
Do we have a common purpose?
What's her spiritual life?
Do I have a spiritual life?
Does she have one?
We have a common path we're onspiritually.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Right is they're not being self-aware and
understanding yourself or this.
You know these strands of thisprocess that you need to go
through.
So, with that said, then, whatare some tips or some ways that
men can overcome that,particularly in a society right
now like you?
Now, you and I are talkingabout it, and maybe some in our
(24:09):
world are talking about that alittle bit, but I'm not seeing
commercials out there for buildintimacy or learn how to bond.
It's more of the quick datingor get on the dating site or
whatever you alluded to how towoo or whatever.
Those are the ones that youseem to see out there.
So how do you overcome all ofthat what I would say nonsense
(24:33):
and wrong messaging to get tothis and really dig into this
and build what you want, becauseit's painful.
If you don't, you're going tokeep, like you said earlier,
keep reliving the samerelationship.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, I would say divorce guys, which is your
audience primarily don't wasteyour pain and become a learner
Like the guys who get divorcedbut they don't learn, they don't
look back, they don't takeresponsibility.
It's like what did I do?
How did I contribute?
How did I get there?
How did I get in the marriage?
And then, how do I even getthere?
How to get in the marriage?
And then what did I do?
That wasn't so helpful duringthe marriage.
You know, just owning stuff,not to go beat yourself up.
(25:10):
But you know, if you don't, ifyou don't learn, you're going to
repeat the pattern yeah mostguys don't like to read or
they're not.
Like they learn in the areaswhere they they value things the
most.
Like they'll go to seminars toexcel at work.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah work them to motorcycles.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
They'll get motorcycle magazines, you know,
or youtube stuff if they hunt.
You know they'll watch meteorright, but most guys don't get
super excited about learningabout relationships, right, it's
just it tends to be more of afemale value than a male value.
But if they're gonna have alife-giving marriage, which I
think we all want, we gotta belearners.
That's why I commit you tobecause this podcast guys will
(25:47):
listen to podcasts way beforethey're going to read a book
like mine.
Yeah, but whether I wrote mybook with guys in mind, that's
where I kept the chapter short,the book short and I did an
off-the-air version so guys canlisten to it while they're going
to work Exactly kind of go well, how do guys learn and how can
we create tools that make iteasier for them to access
knowledge and become moreself-aware and aware of what
(26:08):
it's going to take to build agood marriage in the future?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, that's perfect.
So, and I find that guys goingthrough divorce and I know that
you've alluded to this and Iknow that this was mine my
experience is it's incrediblypainful and you're almost, I
describe, as being broken wideopen.
So it's a great time to do thatself-reflection and try to
(26:31):
understand what it is that youbrought to the table or didn't
break through the table, whatthose behaviors were that you
need to understand in order tobe successful the next time
around, which is the first thingthat you said.
And then do the work right.
Just do the work.
(26:51):
Don't get distracted, don't youknow?
There's a million distractionsout there too.
On top of all the wrongmessaging, there's the
distractions.
We could be distracted from theminute we wake up to the minute
we go to sleep every singlenight.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So that's yeah, yeah, I agree One of the reasons I'm
a Christ follower is because Ibelieve God uses us to the
minute we go to sleep everysingle night.
So that's yeah, yeah, I agree.
One of the reasons I'm a Christfollower is because I believe
God uses us and does his bestwork through us and through us
in the lives of others, not inspite of our weaknesses and
mistakes, but because of them.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So you and.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I both have gone through divorce.
We both made our mistakes.
We made bad choices, but we'retrying to learn from it so we
can help other people.
Right and I, we want to redeemthe mess, and so I, I, I want
that for every guy Like, yeah,you get a divorce, you take a
major self-esteem hit, you feellike a loser.
You wonder if you're spoiledgoods you know and and, but you
(27:42):
can turn into something reallybeautiful if you do your work.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, it can be an opportunity.
It can be a 2.0 opportunity fora different life.
And you describe and every timeyou talk about Carissa and you
know your second marriage.
It's beautiful because there isthe ability to have that a
second time around.
And I know guys listening outthere.
(28:06):
Some of them might be justgoing through it right now and
go are you crazy?
Opportunity.
This is terrible.
I don't ever want to deal withthis.
I don't even want to set myselfup for this.
But if you do the work, if youdo pay attention, if you do make
the effort, there is theability to learn from it, just
like anything that you mightfail at the first time.
(28:29):
And hopefully we're not gettingin a ton of relationships and
marriages.
So you know we do it a handfulof times in life.
It's not like, well, we'relearning another skill where we
do it 10,000 times to becomeproficient at it, right, so
hopefully you haven't dated10,000 women before you get
married.
I mean that would be exhausting,but I mean maybe, but you would
probably become prettyproficient at it.
(28:50):
Right, and try to understand.
We don't do that.
So we've got to give ourselvesa little bit of grace and also
know that if we do put theeffort in that it's you can be
successful again.
You're proof of it.
This book and again the book islove hacks.
It's 10 skills for Making aRelationship More Life-Giving,
and we'll put a link in the shownotes to that too, but you can
(29:11):
buy it on Amazon Last.
Where can people connect withyou, ron, and where can they
find a book and reach out?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, you get the book on Amazon and it's.
If you do read it, pleasereview it.
I'm trying to get my reviews upright now.
All right, I'm not a viewsauthor, so self-published
reviews or everything but Amazonis the best way.
You can follow me on Amazon.
You can follow me on Facebookand on on Instagram.
And then our church isrstchurch, so all my content,
(29:43):
all my messages are on there andour team and you know, and
there's guys who are looking fora community, a really healthy
community, where they can growspiritually.
If that's something they feellike is a felt need in their
life here in Denver, come joinus.
If you're at another place inthe country, you can join us
online.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, and on that note, just briefly tell us about
the simple churches that arepart of RST, because I know
that's a cool thing and I'vestarted one with the Divorce Dad
edition of the Simple Churchand, you know, just share with
us a couple of minutes aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, sure, yeah again, you can learn more at
rstchurch.
We have a whole page on SimpleChurch and it's pretty helpful
describing what makes it workand how to start one, how to be
in one.
But during COVID, after we madethe pivot digitally and kind of
got our act together there,since we couldn't physically
gather, we began to evaluate arewe really making?
(30:37):
Are we creating ministries andmaking true disciples of Jesus?
Because if you're truly adisciple of Jesus, you're going
to be distinct, you're going tostand out.
There should be more love,there should be more joy.
There should be, like, thingsthat you do that other people
don't do and things that you dothat people are curious about,
like where you help the poor,you care about your friends,
(30:59):
you're just, you're a littlelighter on your feet, you're
less anxious.
We go, we're not doing a greatjob at all those things,
honestly, and so we began toevaluate our ministries and even
our small groups, which aregreat, but they really weren't
creating that muchtransformation.
So we were very unhappy withthat.
So we go, let's try somethingdifferent.
I did a bunch of research inthird world settings about like
(31:21):
why are these Christ followersso fired up and why are they
attracting so many people toJesus and I realized most of
them don't need a big building,they don't have any computers,
they don't have access to books,they need little gatherings,
usually in homes.
So we go.
I don't know if we canreplicate that.
So a simple church is verysimple.
You have a handful of guys youcan meet face-to-face, although
(31:42):
most are still meeting on Zoom.
It's just easier to trafficthat kind of thing.
And then we ask seven questionswhat are you grateful for?
What's challenging you?
Did you do your I willstatement, which is an
accountability question.
I'll get to that in a minute.
That's looking back.
We look up, read a shortpassage of scripture and we ask
two questions, because we have alot of non-christians in our
several churches, so thequestions are very generic
(32:03):
what's to say about god?
What's it say about us?
Last two questions we look aheadand this is where we get
traction.
What's your I will statement?
If you assume there's at leastsome truth in here, how can you
apply it to your life?
What will you do because ofthis information that could lead
to you becoming a better person, or if you're going the way of
Jesus, more like Jesus?
Last question Give me what youknow about your faith right now?
(32:25):
How can you share what you'relearning with other people?
So seven questions nopreparation.
Everybody shows up.
They know the agenda.
It takes about 45 minutes,usually to an hour.
I've got a bunch of CEOs in mygroup.
We meet once a month for anhour.
Most of them meet like twice amonth.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
That's fantastic, and while we're going through the
divorce and a lot of guyslistening, we talk about the
mental, emotional, physical andmaking sure you're taking care
of all of those things.
But that fourth leg of thatstool is the spiritual part of
it, and what I'm finding is thisis a great opportunity for so.
You don't have to, you don'tdrive to, you're not spending
(33:03):
the time, you just, and you'respending it in a community with
whomever you choose, like oursis other divorced dads, but
there's other differentcommunities too.
So it's really, reallyphenomenal, it's really awesome.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
It's a spiritual growth accelerator at the end of
the day.
Just a story.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, and they can find more information at
rstchurchorg rstchurch.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
RST stands for at rstchurchorg, rstchurch.
Rst stands for restoration andchurch Got it.
You can get a lot of contentthere.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Awesome, awesome.
Ron Johnson, the book is LoveHacks.
Go buy it.
It's an easy like you canprobably.
I could probably fish with onehand and read and like in an
afternoon of fishing and reading, I could get the book done and
hopefully also catch some fishso well done.
It's like like perfect.
If you've enjoyed this andfound any value in it today,
(33:55):
please, like Ron said, go andwrite some reviews of the book.
Review the channel, subscribelike.
Share with everybody.
The more that we're sharing,the more people we're we're
reaching and helping out.
Ron, thanks so much.
The more that we're sharing,the more people we're reaching
and helping out.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Ron, thanks so much.
It was a pleasure Take care myhonor.
Thank you so much.
Hello and welcome to the Divorced Dadvocates, where
we help dads create a healthierand less traumatic divorce.
My name is Jude Sandvall andI'm your host, and today we are
going to be talking about lovehacks.
But first I wanted to thankeverybody who has been
(00:36):
downloading and listening to thepodcast.
We are approaching 10,000downloads, which is absolutely
amazing, at least for me.
So I'm not Joe Rogan, but forme, 10,000 is an amazing
milestone and I appreciateeverybody that's listening.
And let's just continue.
The community is continuing tobuild share like this, share it
(00:59):
with other divorced dads andlet's keep the momentum going.
We've got some workshops comingup another class August 22nd so
let's just keep it rolling.
So today, my guest is known forhis commitment to making
disciples and planting churches.
He has personally started fourchurches in the urban centers of
(01:20):
San Francisco, california, andmy hometown of Denver, colorado.
He currently pastorsRestoration Church here in
Denver, which has beeninstrumental in starting over 40
traditional churches and, in2019, was counted among the top
10 multiplying churches in theUS by Outreach Magazine.
(01:41):
He has a BA in psychology fromWichita State University, a
master's in divinity from GoldenState Seminary and a master of
arts in biblical counseling fromColorado Christian University.
He's married to Carissa and isthe father of five children.
And if that all is not enough,he is the author of the newly
(02:05):
released book titled Love Hacks10 Skills for Making your
Relationships More Life-Giving.
Please help me welcome RonJohnson.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Hey, so great to meet you, Jude.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Thanks for being here .
Speaker 2 (02:20):
You did a great job building your podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Hey, I know, I know that that happens in about one
minute with Joe Rogan and someof these other guys, but hey,
that's been a year long, about ayear long push here, which you
know it's, it's baby steps, butthat's okay, that's, that's
exciting, we're just it's.
I'm just so, so blessed andthen so, absolutely ecstatic the
(02:43):
growth and the community that'sstarting to build.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
I appreciate what you're doing.
I mean, I'm a divorced dad.
I remember being a single dadand how over my head I felt all
the time, and so what you'redoing is really important and
there's a huge need for it.
So thank you for serving us.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Well, it's my pleasure and on that note.
So, love Hacks, you justreleased that no-transcript.
(03:18):
So you know, maybe tell us alittle bit about yourself and
then maybe a little bit aboutthat kind of the just prep
things for talking about thebook sure, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
So uh grew up over the country, became a christ
follower at 16.
I was pre-med in college, feltcalled to go into ministry.
Just a weird night where I hadprobably too much caffeine but
uh made a huge pivot, didn'teven go to church but started
just doing all the ministry.
And then uh met my, my fore.
She was the girl next door andmet her through a friend and
(03:50):
then we married at the age of 23.
So pretty young.
We were married for 26 yearsand have three amazing kids to
show for.
Our marriage had a verydifficult marriage.
Discover, discovered prettyearly on about some of the
mental issues that she faced andweathered five affairs over the
(04:10):
course of 26 years that she had.
I coped and medicated myselfwith just trying to be
successful in ministry.
I got more love at work.
Usually I came home.
That was a big issue on my sideof the fence.
I came in with not a whole lotof tools when I came to
emotional intelligence orunderstanding what I was dealing
with, and so we we did our bestand got a lot of counseling.
(04:33):
I got that second master'sdegree you mentioned earlier
trying to figure myself out,trying to stay in my own
marriage.
We probably spent gosh maybe 6070 thousand dollars on therapy
trying to figure us out.
And then, uh, finally she, uh,she found somebody else and
decided to call it quits, so gotgot divorced, uh, which had
been uh, nine years ago, no,like eight years ago got
(04:57):
divorced and then thought I'dnever get married again.
I kind of made a vow.
I went out with a reallywonderful woman but you just
tell, she wasn't able to attach.
She'd gone through a lot ofdifficulty in her previous
marriage.
Her husband left her forsomebody else.
So I thought, man, I'm notgoing to get hurt again, I'm not
going to date, I'm just goingto love my church.
I'm going to plant a lot ofchurches, I'm going to hunt fish
(05:18):
, I'm going to buy an Airstreamand dine a trailer with a dog
just go out that way.
and uh, and they got out of theplan.
So I had immense group singleguys were all divorced.
I go, hey, you guys have toteach me to be single again.
And they go well, make you adeal, we'll do that and you help
us grow in the ways of jesus.
(05:39):
One of the guys in that groupintroduced me to carissa.
So I go, well, prayed about fortwo weeks.
I go, all right, I'll I let herback in the water and go out
with her.
And uh, the rest of the historyfell off very quickly.
Super healthy woman, never beenmarried, uh, younger than me.
And thought about that in mylist of what I want and don't
want to do about the age.
(05:59):
But uh, you know, guys are wecan quickly adjust to being with
somebody younger than us.
Sure, we do.
So we got married five yearsago and we have two great kids,
a two-year-old and athree-year-old.
Never thought I'd be a dad at 58again.
But here I am.
Wow, keeps you young.
Yeah, it's either aging me ormaking me younger, I'm not sure,
(06:20):
but maybe both, I guess, butshe's been a joy.
Or making me younger, I'm notsure, but maybe both, I guess,
but she's been a joy Like.
Our marriage is really great,very, very strong.
I mean I tell people all thetime I can do anything with
Carissa, I can clean toiletswith Carissa and it's a good day
and I think it's this guy'sgrace and gift in my life.
And, yeah, a lot of healingtook place from my therapy and
doing divorce recovery groupsand just time, but she's been
(06:44):
the key catalyst to my healing.
Just having somebody who knowsme, sees me and loves me the way
she does.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
That's phenomenal.
So so I what I really?
I really appreciate the lovehacks book because it's
something after reading Ithought, oh, I I wish I had this
in my twenties, right Before Igot before well, actually before
that, with my teens maybe, whenI started to date, and because,
like so many men, I didn't haveanybody that really taught me
(07:12):
how to date, taught me what tothink about, what to look for in
your 10 love hacks are reallythat it's a guide for, okay,
this is kind of a step-by-stepprocess to kind of you know, and
it's not in intimate detail,but kind of what you need to be
thinking about when you'redating, before you start to make
(07:34):
that commitment.
So my question, my firstquestion, is so was it after
your healthy relationship withCarissa that you were like, okay
, now I kind of got this figuredout, maybe I can write some of
this down?
What kind of prompted you towrite?
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Thank you for asking.
I got to think back so I did aseries at restoration called
love hacks.
I've done it twice now.
So I did it three years ago andseveral people go.
You need to turn that into abook.
That was really, really helpful.
So I go and I've been asked towrite books in the past.
I've never considered myself anauthor.
Candidly, I don't considermyself to be much of one.
(08:11):
Now I'm more of a leader and achurch planning catalyst.
I love pastoring people.
People kept saying you need toturn that into a book.
I sent the manuscripts to India,I had them transcribed, then I
literally worked like five to 10minutes by three or four days a
week right up until I publishedit, cause I just didn't have a
lot of time.
I got married, got kids.
You know I've got a lot ofresponsibilities, but I think
(08:35):
what prompted it was kind ofwhat you just said.
I wish I had this kind of abook when I was younger.
And then I thought I would loveto have this book right after I
got divorced, because I have achapter on divorce, remarriage
and I just watched a lot of myfriends go through a divorce and
then make the exact samemistake like basically married
the same woman with a differenthair color and right back in the
(08:57):
same place, and that is themost painful thing to watch.
It's one.
It's hard to go through onedivorce divorce, but to go
through multiple and for thesame reasons, right.
So I thought I'm going to writea book and talk about things
like you know what to look forin a maid and you know how to,
how to, how to think aboutintimacy in a different way and
and talk about really what I'velearned is the bond, is the
(09:19):
marriage.
I look at my previous marriage.
I realized we never had a bondLike that.
Deep attachment was never there.
So we kept trying to rekindlesomething that didn't exist,
right.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So those are some of the motivating factors for me.
Right.
So there's 10 love hacks.
The one, when I was reading itand when I was listening to you,
that struck me was the most wasthe one that you just just hit
on a little bit was, uh, wasyour third one, which building
intimacy and and how youdescribe that with the
(09:50):
difference, uh, the differentstrands, and and how that
creates.
Talk us through that just a alittle bit, because I think it's
incredibly important,particularly for those of those
men that are interested again ingetting into a relationship but
are very afraid of making thosesame mistakes like you did.
Now, you know, those are theones that are much smarter than
(10:12):
me, that are listening, becauseI did what you described like
get back in the nextrelationship.
Pow, you know, bang your headagainst the wall.
Get in the next one.
Bang my head against the walluntil I finally figured out oh
yeah, I'm the common denominator.
So I started figuring myselfout and then now I'm finally
healthy, where I can get into arelationship.
But I hear from a lot of men oh, I'm a little bit afraid.
(10:34):
What are some steps?
That one I really, really liked.
Talk with us about that alittle bit.
Let me get right to it.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
I'll get to chapter three.
I'll get a little context.
So, on that note, I wrote Ithink it's chapter one.
I don't have the index in frontof me where I went to look for
to mate.
Yes, I had a lot of guys havethe wrong list, so I'm trying to
get some help with getting theright list.
I think you know I had my listpartly on point, partly off, and
like, for example, I went outwith somebody who was healthy in
(11:01):
so many ways but notemotionally healed yet.
So give me a little checklist.
But the reason chapter threewas written was because of my
experience that led to chaptertwo.
I went to my therapist one day.
He'd seen us.
He was our marriage therapist.
He knew my ex really, reallywell.
We'd seen him for every decadeand there's things you can say
to somebody after their marriageis over.
(11:24):
You cannot say to them whenthey are married that first,
because every therapist wants tokeep the marriage together if
they're a good therapist, unlessit's a super toxic and
unhealthy, of course.
And he told me you were neverreally married.
I said we're married for 26years.
The formula says I got to payalimony for 13 years.
What do you?
Speaker 1 (11:42):
mean you're married.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
Like to have known that before I went to court and
he said, uh, no, you never had abond.
I go, wow, see, and I just keptasking questions what is bond?
What's the nature of?
Why is it so important?
And he said, yeah, you kepttrying to rebuild something that
never was there.
It's like when're gonna rebuildthe fire.
But you know, spark, becauseyou never had one.
It wasn't like we didn't havean attraction, we didn't have
(12:04):
things in common and we neverlove each other, but that deep
attachment he said that was notthere.
That had to own part of that.
But I also, because of theabuse in the past, my ex, I
don't, she just couldn't't giveher heart in such ways to truly
attach.
And then he said, you know, youshould do some Bible saying
this.
So I went to Genesis, went backand I've been reading all the
passages in divorce, remarriage.
(12:25):
And I went to Genesis 2.24because there's a principle in
interpreting scripture.
It's called the principle offirst mention.
Anytime there's a first mentionof a topic, you go okay, this
is a direction for everythingelse.
And I know some of yourlisteners are Christians, some
are not, and some of them havethe Bible and some don't.
But if you look at, you can lookat Genesis as being a
(12:46):
theological treatise, or you canlook at it archetypally, if
you're not a Christian, if youwant.
You got the first marriage, yougot Adam and Eve and you have
this sort of this purpose thatis given to them.
It's like a teleologicalprinciple.
Here's what the purpose ofmarriage is for a principle.
That's in Genesis 2.24.
And it says for this reason, aman will leave his father and
(13:08):
mother and be united to his wifeand they will become one flesh.
So, being a nerd, a Bible nerd,I got into the Hebrew very
in-depth and the word there forunited it is debak, and debak in
Hebrew means to bond or toattach, and so what is being
said there is the bond, is themarriage.
(13:29):
Before there was weddingceremonies and the institutional
marriage and the multi-billiondollar wedding.
You know that sort of sector ofsociety out there I would see a
couple like some penultimatecouple and they'd be talking
about whatever the upside oftheir diet or something, and
then he would see how there wasan attachment between the two of
(13:50):
them and he'd say, okay, nowthat's what I'm talking about,
that's marriage.
They've got this deep, deepbond.
Yeah, we still need vows and weneed to sign up license,
because that kind of protectsthe bond, it sort of validates
the bond, it picks the bondpublic, but the bond precedes
the vows, and that's what reallyis marriage.
So then the next thing is oneflesh.
(14:10):
So the result of the bond is aone flesh relationship.
One flesh means intimacy.
So I began to think about that.
What's the meaning of a?
One flesh means intimacy.
So I began to think about that.
What's the meaning of a oneflesh relationship?
It's obviously a sexualmetaphor, but it's way more than
that.
And so as I began to unpack thescriptures and look at what it
means to have an intimaterelationship, I came up with six
strands, like a rope.
Yeah, and need all six strandsto have a strong marriage.
(14:32):
And the the cool thing is, youknow, the intimacy is what
creates a life-giving marriage.
But most guys, when they thinkintimacy, first they think of
sex.
Then they might think ofsomething else, like, hey, a
buddy to go to games with, or apartner in life.
That makes them less lonely.
But we need a more full-orbedunderstanding of intimacy.
And the cool thing is, asintimacy grows, the bond gets
(14:54):
stronger and so the relationshipgets stronger.
The bond gets stronger and sothe relationship gets stronger.
So the six strands of the rope,as I try to articulate them in
the book, are, you know, firstof all you have the intellectual
strand, like a mental,intellectual connection.
You talk about things that areinteresting to you, whether it
be, you know, a hobby you share,or maybe you you're into wine
or politics, whatever.
But there's got to be anintellectual engagement in order
(15:17):
to have intimacy.
Then there's the physicalstrands.
The physical strand is notsexual, it's touch, it's
affection, it's being near eachother.
There's a law called the law ofpropinquity.
It states that the more timeyou spend with somebody, the
(15:37):
more likely it is you're goingto become more affectionate
towards them, the moreemotionally connected to them.
Then there's the emotionalstrand, which, if you look at
most of the research now onattachment, like I'm talking
about, like oh gosh, what is hisname now?
The guy that wrote SevenPrinciples of Marriage?
Why Marriage is Gottman, johnGottman Most research indicates
if you don't have a deepemotional connection.
Sue Johnson, her researchindicates the same thing.
(15:58):
She's written a book calledhold me tight.
The emotional connection is socritical to strengthening the
bond, like being known andknowing the other person, being
able to read their feelings andbeing able to develop the eq to
have a deep emotional connectionsuper important right.
And of course you have thesexual connection.
All the research indicates ifyou have a strong emotional
connection, the sex is going totake care of itself.
(16:21):
All the therapists like to saythis that all the therapies that
are designed to focus ontechnique are very
non-efficacious.
They don't really lead to goodsex.
If it's the emotionalconnection sex is going to
happen, then let's see what am Iforgetting here?
What I call the missionalstrand of the book Having a
common purpose, a common commonmission, is really important.
(16:42):
And then the spiritualconnection, like right, there's
research that indicates that ifyou share intimate requests on a
regular basis like preferablydaily and pray together, you
have less than a 1% chance ofgetting a divorce.
So there's research like GeorgeBarna.
He's a researcher on the WestCoast.
He did a bunch of research.
(17:03):
He found that couples that dothat on a regular basis,
preferably daily, have less thana 1% chance of getting a
divorce.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Wow, that's phenomenal.
So at least you had a list ofwants, right, which is the first
thing, right?
I just and a lot of guys arejust, oh, she's good looking,
right, or you know she's reallyhot, let's go out.
And then they get stuck in that, right, you get stuck in that.
And there's a book called theTactical Guide to Women and I've
(17:38):
got it right here by Sean Smith, who's actually out of Denver,
colorado also, and he talksabout that also of like
understanding who you are andwhat you want, and your list of
wants, which you referred toalso, because you can't really,
it's kind of like going shoppingfor anything for a car, right,
if you don't know that you needa truck or a car or whatever,
how are you going to go out?
(17:58):
You're just going to go out andlike the first car that you see
, you're going to buy it.
Not that we're.
I mean, that's kind of ageneric analogy, right?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Not that we're comparing women to trucks, or
they do in some country songs.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
But we're not saying that at all, it's just the
philosophy and idea around that.
But then once you do buildingthat attachment and all of those
different attachments that youjust described.
And so to take what you'resaying is, you described it as
the four strands, as a rope, andif you look and you pull apart
a rope, you've got differentstrands like that, and if you
(18:33):
pull them up, if you pull eachone apart, each one itself is
not very strong, but when theytwist them together and then you
pull each one apart, each oneitself is not very strong, but
when they twist them togetherand then you pull them, it makes
it much, much stronger andbuilds a tension on that that is
very, very strong for a verylong time, lest something breaks
or something.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
I think those strands should inform our list.
So I actually had a list of 48qualities, which is pretty
psycho yeah, she's got to bephenomenal.
Well, I had five non-essentialsand then, uh, no, I had 43
non-essentials and fiveessentials.
Okay, my essentials wereinformed by my understanding of
intimacy not completely, but Igo, okay, uh, must be able to
(19:17):
attach.
Like, a lot of women cannotattach, they give the hard way
over and over again.
And us guys, we gotta take someresponsibility for this.
Like we, a lot of us, areserial women damagers.
Candidly, we we go in, we knowhow to like, woo and and seduce
and then get what we want.
Then we go, hey, moving on.
Well, that happens often enoughto a woman and she's like I'm
(19:38):
not giving my heart to any guy,cause they all do the same thing
to me.
So right, yeah, but a lot ofwomen just flat can't attach
that they're just so broken.
Unless they do a lot of work,they don't attach.
So I go, can she attach theyreally truly love and pursue God
(20:03):
?
And then I had a few otherthings.
I honestly didn't just love mebut liked me.
But I needed both, I think myspouse tried to love me, but I
don't think she really liked memy first spouse.
So I had my five qualities.
I had a bunch of just goofystuff that I could take or leave
, like loves to backpack, likesto travel.
So I go hey, this is nice tohave, but I don't have to have
(20:23):
these things.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Right and being intentional about that and then
being intentional about theattachment part of it, I feel is
huge also, and Scott Stanley'sgot a great book called the
Power of Commitment along thoselines.
That talks about beingintentional and writing a list,
having things, understanding thesix strands that you need to
(20:48):
develop and then going forwardin developing that for the, for
the relationship, as opposed tolike I described and like I was
guilty of, right as dating.
She's really good looking.
I like being out with her.
Oh, you know, let's date somemore.
Oh, we're going to have sex.
Oh, we're having sex.
Oh, we're.
(21:08):
You know we're going to move intogether.
Oh, you know not.
And then he calls it backsliding.
And then it gets to the pointyou're like well, let's get
married.
Oh, well, that's, you know,that's backsliding, that's not.
That doesn't build a solidrelationship, that doesn't build
intimacy, that's notcommitments.
None of that is.
The is a recipe for a, for asuccessful marriage, and that's
(21:33):
what.
That's what I did.
So what?
What are some of the challengesthat you see for for men and
women in general, or or divorceddads also, in building that,
those strands, and and creatingthat, that intimacy and that
bond?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
we just described the most common pattern.
You see again men and women,yeah, either before they have
their first marriage or afterthey're they've been divorced,
or kind of back in the game is.
That's the exact pattern.
You find somebody you'reattracted to, so okay, well,
great, you got an attraction.
Strand attraction is important.
We tend to overrate it, as guys, we kind of want the nines and
(22:10):
the tens or confuse it as loveas love.
Yeah, we think we thinkattraction is love and often
than just to be frank, you know,a lot of the nines and tens
have not had to work on theircharacter or their emotional
intelligence or their spirituallife and so lacking a lot of the
tools that guys really need tohave a really important or like
a really life-giving bond withsomebody.
(22:32):
So we go with attraction, thenwe get sexually, you know,
involved and when that happens,tons of research on the
physiology, tons of oxytocinit's related, you know released.
We start bonding to somebody atthat level without having those
other strands of connection.
So if a sexual connection wehave, an attraction we might
enjoy doing certain thingstogether.
We got a golf buddy, forexample, a biking buddy, but we,
(22:54):
we, that becomes the uh, theprimary currency of the
relationship and then we don'tdevelop the strands that are
actually going to help ussustain and mature a marriage
and mature the love of themarriage, which are the
emotional, spiritual andintellectual strands and the
missional strands.
Like we have the same values,are we heading towards the same
goals, like right?
(23:15):
So I would say, you know,become self-aware of these
different types of intimacy thatare important for a marriage
and then put that on your listyeah, so am I.
Is this woman emotionallyhealthy?
Do we have a common purpose?
What's her spiritual life?
Do I have a spiritual life?
Does she have one?
We have a common path we're onspiritually.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Right is they're not being self-aware and
understanding yourself or this.
You know these strands of thisprocess that you need to go
through.
So, with that said, then, whatare some tips or some ways that
men can overcome that,particularly in a society right
now like you?
Now, you and I are talkingabout it, and maybe some in our
(24:09):
world are talking about that alittle bit, but I'm not seeing
commercials out there for buildintimacy or learn how to bond.
It's more of the quick datingor get on the dating site or
whatever you alluded to how towoo or whatever.
Those are the ones that youseem to see out there.
So how do you overcome all ofthat what I would say nonsense
(24:33):
and wrong messaging to get tothis and really dig into this
and build what you want, becauseit's painful.
If you don't, you're going tokeep, like you said earlier,
keep reliving the samerelationship.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yeah, I would say divorce guys, which is your
audience primarily don't wasteyour pain and become a learner
Like the guys who get divorcedbut they don't learn, they don't
look back, they don't takeresponsibility.
It's like what did I do?
How did I contribute?
How did I get there?
How did I get in the marriage?
And then, how do I even getthere?
How to get in the marriage?
And then what did I do?
That wasn't so helpful duringthe marriage.
You know, just owning stuff,not to go beat yourself up.
(25:10):
But you know, if you don't, ifyou don't learn, you're going to
repeat the pattern yeah mostguys don't like to read or
they're not.
Like they learn in the areaswhere they they value things the
most.
Like they'll go to seminars toexcel at work.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Yeah work them to motorcycles.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
They'll get motorcycle magazines, you know,
or youtube stuff if they hunt.
You know they'll watch meteorright, but most guys don't get
super excited about learningabout relationships, right, it's
just it tends to be more of afemale value than a male value.
But if they're gonna have alife-giving marriage, which I
think we all want, we gotta belearners.
That's why I commit you tobecause this podcast guys will
(25:47):
listen to podcasts way beforethey're going to read a book
like mine.
Yeah, but whether I wrote mybook with guys in mind, that's
where I kept the chapter short,the book short and I did an
off-the-air version so guys canlisten to it while they're going
to work Exactly kind of go well, how do guys learn and how can
we create tools that make iteasier for them to access
knowledge and become moreself-aware and aware of what
(26:08):
it's going to take to build agood marriage in the future?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Yeah, that's perfect.
So, and I find that guys goingthrough divorce and I know that
you've alluded to this and Iknow that this was mine my
experience is it's incrediblypainful and you're almost, I
describe, as being broken wideopen.
So it's a great time to do thatself-reflection and try to
(26:31):
understand what it is that youbrought to the table or didn't
break through the table, whatthose behaviors were that you
need to understand in order tobe successful the next time
around, which is the first thingthat you said.
And then do the work right.
Just do the work.
(26:51):
Don't get distracted, don't youknow?
There's a million distractionsout there too.
On top of all the wrongmessaging, there's the
distractions.
We could be distracted from theminute we wake up to the minute
we go to sleep every singlenight.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So that's yeah, yeah, I agree One of the reasons I'm
a Christ follower is because Ibelieve God uses us to the
minute we go to sleep everysingle night.
So that's yeah, yeah, I agree.
One of the reasons I'm a Christfollower is because I believe
God uses us and does his bestwork through us and through us
in the lives of others, not inspite of our weaknesses and
mistakes, but because of them.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
So you and.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
I both have gone through divorce.
We both made our mistakes.
We made bad choices, but we'retrying to learn from it so we
can help other people.
Right and I, we want to redeemthe mess, and so I, I, I want
that for every guy Like, yeah,you get a divorce, you take a
major self-esteem hit, you feellike a loser.
You wonder if you're spoiledgoods you know and and, but you
(27:42):
can turn into something reallybeautiful if you do your work.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Yeah, it can be an opportunity.
It can be a 2.0 opportunity fora different life.
And you describe and every timeyou talk about Carissa and you
know your second marriage.
It's beautiful because there isthe ability to have that a
second time around.
And I know guys listening outthere.
(28:06):
Some of them might be justgoing through it right now and
go are you crazy?
Opportunity.
This is terrible.
I don't ever want to deal withthis.
I don't even want to set myselfup for this.
But if you do the work, if youdo pay attention, if you do make
the effort, there is theability to learn from it, just
like anything that you mightfail at the first time.
(28:29):
And hopefully we're not gettingin a ton of relationships and
marriages.
So you know we do it a handfulof times in life.
It's not like, well, we'relearning another skill where we
do it 10,000 times to becomeproficient at it, right, so
hopefully you haven't dated10,000 women before you get
married.
I mean that would be exhausting,but I mean maybe, but you would
probably become prettyproficient at it.
(28:50):
Right, and try to understand.
We don't do that.
So we've got to give ourselvesa little bit of grace and also
know that if we do put theeffort in that it's you can be
successful again.
You're proof of it.
This book and again the book islove hacks.
It's 10 skills for Making aRelationship More Life-Giving,
and we'll put a link in the shownotes to that too, but you can
(29:11):
buy it on Amazon Last.
Where can people connect withyou, ron, and where can they
find a book and reach out?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yeah, you get the book on Amazon and it's.
If you do read it, pleasereview it.
I'm trying to get my reviews upright now.
All right, I'm not a viewsauthor, so self-published
reviews or everything but Amazonis the best way.
You can follow me on Amazon.
You can follow me on Facebookand on on Instagram.
And then our church isrstchurch, so all my content,
(29:43):
all my messages are on there andour team and you know, and
there's guys who are looking fora community, a really healthy
community, where they can growspiritually.
If that's something they feellike is a felt need in their
life here in Denver, come joinus.
If you're at another place inthe country, you can join us
online.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Yeah, and on that note, just briefly tell us about
the simple churches that arepart of RST, because I know
that's a cool thing and I'vestarted one with the Divorce Dad
edition of the Simple Churchand, you know, just share with
us a couple of minutes aboutthat.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, sure, yeah again, you can learn more at
rstchurch.
We have a whole page on SimpleChurch and it's pretty helpful
describing what makes it workand how to start one, how to be
in one.
But during COVID, after we madethe pivot digitally and kind of
got our act together there,since we couldn't physically
gather, we began to evaluate arewe really making?
(30:37):
Are we creating ministries andmaking true disciples of Jesus?
Because if you're truly adisciple of Jesus, you're going
to be distinct, you're going tostand out.
There should be more love,there should be more joy.
There should be, like, thingsthat you do that other people
don't do and things that you dothat people are curious about,
like where you help the poor,you care about your friends,
(30:59):
you're just, you're a littlelighter on your feet, you're
less anxious.
We go, we're not doing a greatjob at all those things,
honestly, and so we began toevaluate our ministries and even
our small groups, which aregreat, but they really weren't
creating that muchtransformation.
So we were very unhappy withthat.
So we go, let's try somethingdifferent.
I did a bunch of research inthird world settings about like
(31:21):
why are these Christ followersso fired up and why are they
attracting so many people toJesus and I realized most of
them don't need a big building,they don't have any computers,
they don't have access to books,they need little gatherings,
usually in homes.
So we go.
I don't know if we canreplicate that.
So a simple church is verysimple.
You have a handful of guys youcan meet face-to-face, although
(31:42):
most are still meeting on Zoom.
It's just easier to trafficthat kind of thing.
And then we ask seven questionswhat are you grateful for?
What's challenging you?
Did you do your I willstatement, which is an
accountability question.
I'll get to that in a minute.
That's looking back.
We look up, read a shortpassage of scripture and we ask
two questions, because we have alot of non-christians in our
several churches, so thequestions are very generic
(32:03):
what's to say about god?
What's it say about us?
Last two questions we look aheadand this is where we get
traction.
What's your I will statement?
If you assume there's at leastsome truth in here, how can you
apply it to your life?
What will you do because ofthis information that could lead
to you becoming a better person, or if you're going the way of
Jesus, more like Jesus?
Last question Give me what youknow about your faith right now?
(32:25):
How can you share what you'relearning with other people?
So seven questions nopreparation.
Everybody shows up.
They know the agenda.
It takes about 45 minutes,usually to an hour.
I've got a bunch of CEOs in mygroup.
We meet once a month for anhour.
Most of them meet like twice amonth.
Yeah, that's fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
That's fantastic, and while we're going through the
divorce and a lot of guyslistening, we talk about the
mental, emotional, physical andmaking sure you're taking care
of all of those things.
But that fourth leg of thatstool is the spiritual part of
it, and what I'm finding is thisis a great opportunity for so.
You don't have to, you don'tdrive to, you're not spending
(33:03):
the time, you just, and you'respending it in a community with
whomever you choose, like oursis other divorced dads, but
there's other differentcommunities too.
So it's really, reallyphenomenal, it's really awesome.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
It's a spiritual growth accelerator at the end of
the day.
Just a story.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Yeah, and they can find more information at
rstchurchorg rstchurch.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
RST stands for at rstchurchorg, rstchurch.
Rst stands for restoration andchurch Got it.
You can get a lot of contentthere.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Awesome, awesome.
Ron Johnson, the book is LoveHacks.
Go buy it.
It's an easy like you canprobably.
I could probably fish with onehand and read and like in an
afternoon of fishing and reading, I could get the book done and
hopefully also catch some fishso well done.
It's like like perfect.
If you've enjoyed this andfound any value in it today,
(33:55):
please, like Ron said, go andwrite some reviews of the book.
Review the channel, subscribelike.
Share with everybody.
The more that we're sharing,the more people we're we're
reaching and helping out.
Ron, thanks so much.
The more that we're sharing,the more people we're reaching
and helping out.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Ron, thanks so much.
It was a pleasure Take care myhonor.
Thank you so much.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.