260 - The State of Dads: 5th Anniversary Episode - The Divorced Dadvocate: Divorce Support For Dads

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week.
I sincerely appreciate it.
This is a milestone episode forus and we are celebrating with
my esteemed guests today.
This is our 260th episode.
So we have been doing this nowfor five years and we'll be

(00:20):
entering into the sixth seasonof the Divorced Advocate podcast
.
And, man, I got to say I'mincredibly blessed to have been
doing this work over this time.
It has been, you know, truly,truly something that has given
me back so much in doing this.
And I did want to share and sayusually I'll plug the website

(00:44):
and getting involved and, asusual I would say jump on, if
this is the first podcast you'relistening to, to the website at
thedivorcedadvocatecom andcheck out all the resources we
have.
But I did want to share alittle bit about the success of
this podcast.
It is ranked in the top 5% ofpodcasts worldwide.

(01:04):
There's almost 3 millionpodcasts, or a little over 3
million podcasts worldwide, andwe are in the top 5% of those
podcasts and that's truly acredit to all of you.
Dads that have tuned in haveshared this far and wide on
social media.
We have, over those five years,have had 130, almost 135,000

(01:27):
downloads of the podcast andwe've been listened to in 149
countries.
So if you're listening in oneof those other countries, I
appreciate it.
Obviously, the listenership ishighest here in the United
States and we've also beenlistened to in 6,067 total

(01:50):
cities across the world.
And while that's good news forus that we're getting the word
out and we're getting you guysthe help that you need and
deserve, it is a little bit sadthat divorce is so prevalent and
essentially normalized acrossthe world.
But again, that's why we'rehere, why we've created the
community and why we're here tohelp out.

(02:13):
So I'm excited to share whatI'm calling the state of dads.
It's a good time for us to dothat.
We're recording on Father's Dayweekend here in the United
States.
I've got three dads with metoday who I think would agree
with me in saying it's one ofthe primary and most amazing

(02:33):
things that we have done and doin our lives, and I'm going to
just share a little bit abouteach one of them and why I've
asked them to be on the show.
A couple of them you've alreadyheard before, actually multiple
times before on this show.
They're repeat offenders, Iguess, if you will coming back
on the show, which I lovebecause they have an immense

(02:54):
amount of wisdom that they haveshared.
And I'll start with my friend,ken Curry, who's a licensed
marriage and family therapisthere in the Denver metro area as
well as the founder ofsolidmencom, a phenomenal men's
group here.
My other friend, kirk Samuels,who is the co-host and founder

(03:15):
of the radio show Mad Men ofMasculinity, and my other friend
, gordon, who is a part of theDivorce Advocate community here
in the Denver Metro area, hasbeen since he went through his
divorce and now he's I'm sure hewill say, gladly post-divorce
and still part of the community.
So, gentlemen, thanks so muchfor being here.

(03:35):
I just wanted to start out withhaving each one of you maybe
share a little bit aboutyourselves and then we're just
going to get in and chat alittle bit about the state of
dads.
I know that you each have aunique perspective around that
Ken being a therapist and Kirkdoing the work that you've done
with men for so long in theradio show, and Gordon just

(03:57):
being an all-around great guyand an awesome dad and part of
the community.
So, ken, will you start us off?

Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, I'll share a little bit about myself.
So, yeah, I've been workingwith men for a long time,
specifically as a therapist, forprobably the last 15 years.
My primary the work that I dois working with men and helping
them grow, looking attransformation, building in
their relationships, building areally solid internal frame
within themselves and justreally helping guys grow and

(04:28):
doing well with life.
So that's a big part of what Ido.
I've been married 41 years.
This summer I have three adultchildren, two grandsons who are
going to be coming over rightafter I'm done with this, so I'm
pretty excited about that.
It's awesome having grandkids.
I love the outdoors, I justlove getting out, so this is
really an honor to be here.
Like you were saying, being afather has been easily one of

(04:50):
the most significant things I'vehad as a purpose in my life,
and so that's just a reallysignificant thing for me.
So thanks for having me on,jude.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, well, and it's great to have you.
I always love having yourperspective here.
And one thing I just want toadd Ken has talked globally
about men's issues and also hasbeen threatened to be
deplatformed and threatened andeverything else, and he
continues to speak up.
I mean he's truly a man ofconviction and values, truly a

(05:21):
man of conviction and values,and so it's one of the reasons I
always look to him for advice,as well as coming on and talking
to him.
So I just want to recognizethat, ken, and I appreciate that
, I appreciate the man you areand what you do.
Thanks for being here.
Thank you, those are kind words.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Thanks.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Kirk.
Well, first of all,congratulations, dude.
I mean, it's one thing to dosomething, it's another thing to
keep doing it.
A lot of people can startsomething, but not a lot of
people can stick with it, man.
So congratulations, Huge kudosto you.
And, knowing you personally,you're the real deal and I
appreciate you and all the workyou do.
So I go by the moniker theIntimacy Incubator.

(06:03):
With strength, wisdom,gentleness and mercy, I
co-create a world of intimacyand unconditional connection by
teaching and inspiring onemillion men how to live free
from internet pornography.
I am a two-time offender interms of divorce.
I'm currently married to aphenomenal woman that I'm pretty

(06:25):
sure I'm going to break mystreak on with this one.
And so you know through my ownstruggles, man, you know the
reason I failed twice is thesame reason seven out of ten
divorces have in common anyway,and that's someone with a
broadband internet pornographyaddiction.

(06:46):
And so I decided to take myexperience, and particularly my
failures, and incorporate thosein helping teaching other guys
how to quit the way I did, andnot so much focusing on
consumption or addiction, butmostly functioning on the
freedom aspect of it.
Like man freaking.

(07:06):
Life is great when you livewith purpose, uh, and not guilt.
Um, when you live with a reasonto start and not a reason to
stop something, uh, life isgreat and so.
So, through that, you know toyour point.
You know a couple books outthere, uh, you know some
speaking, and then you know, oneof the other things currently,
like you said, is our Mad Men ofMasculinity radio show over the

(07:29):
air here, klbc in Denver,colorado, and podcast platforms
everywhere and social mediaplatforms and all that kind of
stuff.
So, again, honored to be here,man, and any way I can get on
the battlefield, on the frontlines, with a guy like Jude, I'm
down for it, man.

Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, man, and I appreciate it, and I do want to
comment on the work that you do,because I've been in rooms with
you and when you talk and heardyou and heard some of your
stuff and the work that you dois, I encourage everybody to
tune in or to get involved ifyou've got some challenges

(08:09):
around the work that Kirk does,because he described it best in
a compassionate manner andthere's just a way about him and
the way that he operates andthe way that he talks and the
way that he makes you feel thatthere's no shame in it and
there's and it's, and it's a wayforward, it's a way to freedom,
right, my friend?
And so you know, kudos to youand I really appreciate you.

(08:32):
So thanks for being here,gordon.

Speaker 5 (08:36):
Hey, how's it going, Jude Yep.
So I will be divorced for twoyears in August coming up, and
I'm very excited about that.

Speaker 1 (08:42):
All right, you're a divorcery.

Speaker 5 (08:44):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (08:46):
Yes, luckily just a one-time offender so far, so
hopefully never make it morethan one.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Well third time's a charm apparently with.
Kirk right.

Speaker 5 (08:56):
One's all I can take.
So there you go.
Yeah, honestly you, jude,you've been awesome and really
helped everybody through it,really appreciate all the work
that you do in the in the dad'sforum, so that's been fantastic,
especially like I think one ofthe big things is just be able
to bounce ideas off of youstrategies and plans and help

(09:18):
help all the guys get through it, which has been tremendously
helpful to me and I'm sureeverybody else in the group as
well.
So thank you for that.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, yeah Cool.
And Gordon's our residentpickleball expert here trying to
get everybody, everybody in thecommunity pickle curious.
So we appreciate that.
We appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
All right, I'll put a shout out there for it, because
you know, one of the big thingsis a rebuilding community as
you go through the divorce andthere's nothing faster than
pickleball to rebuild yourcommunity yeah, yeah, it's a
great social game and you know Iwas a tennis, tennis snob and
it took him probably, uh, sixmonths to get me out there and,
and well, I won't say that thatI'm hooked and I play as much as

(10:02):
him because I just don't havethe time.

Speaker 1 (10:04):
it is so much fun and it is great and it is social.
So, yeah, that's for sure thetruth, my friend.
So thanks for being here.
I appreciate it and appreciateyour friendship.
And we got a wild card here.
I wasn't sure if he was goingto show up or not.
He has appeared and I'm excitedto have him.
My friend, david Passara, whois the founder of Union of Dads

(10:26):
as well as a family law attorney.
David, thanks for coming.
We're just giving some briefintros of ourselves here and, if
you don't mind, please share.

Speaker 4 (10:36):
Thanks, gene.
To echo what Kirk saidcongratulations on five years.
That is quite an accomplishment.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Thank you.

Speaker 4 (10:42):
You should be very proud of yourself.
So I'm Dave Pizarro.
I've been a divorce lawyer for27 years now, so I've walked
with men through the battles andthe nightmare of family court,
and I started Union of Dads,which is a group of fathers who
are coming together to supportthemselves through the divorce
or through the child custodybattle process.

(11:03):
I have an online course calledDad's Law School, which is our
main website, dadslawschoolcom,where I teach dads how to
represent themselves in familycourt, because so many times
they just run out of money andenergy and lawyers.
At the end of the day, they endup having to represent
themselves, and so they needsome help.

(11:23):
After you spent 20 grand on alawyer and learned nothing about
what to actually say in court,somebody is actually stepping up
and being like here's what youtell the judge, here's how you
tell the judge.
And this morning we had one ofour monthly meetups and we have
guys coming together to sharetheir experiences, and it's
really beautiful to see men cometogether and support each other

(11:45):
through these rough, dark timeswhen they're going through
those divorces or those custodybattles, because we have both.
And you know, I'm really,really encouraged when I see
something like that and I seethese guys come together and
support each other, so it's beena really great journey working
through my life for the last 27years with dads and going
through family court through mylife for the last 27 years with

(12:06):
dads going through family court.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Yeah, well, you bring up a great point, which is
having community around you andbeing involved with other guys
during this difficult andchallenging time and each one of
us here does work with othermen, and I can't speak for you,
but I'll speak for myself.
That was life-changing when Istarted to understand the
importance of being around othermen, particularly during and

(12:30):
you need leaders of men in orderto bring the other, the other
men, around and and make it aspace that's comfortable for
them.
Then to say, oh, okay, yeah,that's okay, other people are

(12:52):
going through this.
Um, I can, uh, I can let downmy guard because, as men, right,
we want to.
We want to just, uh, maybe bestoic, maybe we were taught that
, maybe it was by necessity, etcetera.
So, yeah, kudos to you and justreemphasize I just want to
reemphasize that with the guysthat are listening, it's really

(13:13):
really incredibly important andtake it from four other
incredibly strong men on thiscall that are on this podcast
that it's a sign of strength ifyou're looking to surround
yourself with other men and getinvolved with other men to look
for help and it's June and it'sMen's Mental Health Month, so I

(13:37):
think that's an important thingto emphasize as well.

Speaker 4 (13:42):
Absolutely.
And the other thing, I think,is that you know, as they lift
each other up, they each becomestronger, is one of the biggest
things that I've noticed is thatguys come in and they're beaten
down emotionally and their egohas been shattered and their
finances are in a shambles andthey're trying to just figure
out, like do I or do I not?
Just like take myself out ofthe game here, and they actually

(14:04):
get to rebuild their egos bybeing involved with other men.
That's the one thing I'venoticed is you know the
rejuvenation that happens whenthey come together.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
And maybe when Gordon pops backin here he can attest to that,
because I remember you know it'sbeen two years that when he
first came on.
And that's the challenge withdivorce, right?
Is that?
Hopefully, with the exceptionof Kirk, we don't go through it

(14:36):
more than once, right?
But with anything that you'venever gone through, you don't
know what to expect.
It is difficult, it'schallenging, it's uncertain,
it's stressful, like all those,all of those things.
So, having somebody there, justlike when you were learning to
ride a bike, when you're a kid,or when you did anything for the
first time, you had a coach orhad somebody that was helping
you through it, it made thingsmore comfortable.

(14:58):
And then, yeah, to your point,david, then that builds
confidence, builds resilienceand all the other things.
So, yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (15:07):
So I got a question.
I would say, man, one of thedarkest bellies of the beast for
me through that process wasjust the feeling of loneliness
and isolation, man, it's justthe feeling of I'm the only one
going through this and nobodyelse can understand.
And I'm in this alone and youknow one of the.

(15:28):
You know, one of the worstthings a man can do is be alone.
One of the best things a mancan do is to be around other men
.
We are force multipliers whenit comes to us coming together,
but when we're alone we getplucked off.
Navy SEALs don't go into battlealone, right?
So you know the whole idea ofmen getting together.
I wouldn't even say it's good.
I would say it's mandatory forthe success of men to get around

(15:51):
other men and to have ironsharpened eyes.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Yeah Well, so that kind of leads into one of the
questions I had, which is do youfeel like dads are starting to
be more open and that there ismore openness around mental
health for dads, or do you stillfeel that there's a lot of
taboo around it?

Speaker 2 (16:07):
I think the answer is yes.
There is a lot of taboo stillaround it.
I think to Kirk's point, thewhole thing of the men wanting
to be with other men.
I think a lot of guys don'trealize the essence and the
power of that and how theisolation is such a significant,
horrible thing for us.
And so I think for your twoquestions, is it still a taboo?

(16:31):
Yeah, it is, but I think a lotmore guys are starting to see
the writing on the wall that Ineed other men or I need to do
something to care for myself.
I think one of the mostimportant things that a father
could do for his kids is to beable to take care of his own
stuff and to get himself squaredaway and to be able to become

(16:52):
stronger.
Need to take care of myself.
I need to.
I need the men around me.
I need to talk to a therapist.
I need to be part of a team, agroup, even if it's pickleball,
whatever.
I need people around me and thething about that is it takes

(17:14):
humility.
It takes you have to openyourself up, and opening
yourself up is fairly vulnerableand most guys have a hard time
with that.
But vulnerability, even thoughit sounds horribly unmasculine.
It actually is a prettypowerful part of a posture of a
man to be open with other menand to put ourselves in that
position and uh, but it justtakes humility and a lot of guys

(17:36):
have a hard time getting therethat for a second, because I,
because I vulnerability whatlet's describe that, because I
think there might be somemisconception.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
What's what some dads are listening to, or some men
in general are listening, theysay, well, you know
vulnerability they, they mighthave the picture of like you
know, like we're, we're curledup and we're like crying, like
crying to each other in somelike self-help group, and that's
not necessarily what we're likecrying to each other in some
like self-help group, and that'snot necessarily what we're
talking about here invulnerability, when we're either

(18:10):
doing some work with the solidmen group or with your group,
kirk, or the divorced advocategroup.
Vulnerability is different thanthat.
Because one of you want to jumpin on what you would describe
as vulnerability and like anexample of that.

Speaker 4 (18:26):
Well, I, I think you know, a lot of men perceive
vulnerability as being open tobeing attacked that's what
they're most afraid of, whereas,like in my men's group, what I
have found and what they're whatthey're experiencing is they
don't get attacked, but they'reonly willing to open up once
they've seen someone else do itand not get attacked.

(18:46):
So you kind of have to likeprime the pump here on some
level.
When you're dealing with men ingroups, you've got to have
somebody and usually it's meopening up like here's what's
going on, and then they see likesomebody else actually be
supportive, and then it's justlike a waterfall, like they're
all jumping in, they're climbingover each other to like open up

(19:08):
and share what's going onbecause they have such a need
for it.
But they've been keeping itdown for so long that it's kind
of just burst out.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (19:17):
I'll use.

Speaker 1 (19:17):
I'll give an example.
Inevitably, in some of ourgroup calls, somebody might,
might be having some challenges,might be getting emotional, and
one of us will say, hey, youknow, I cried myself to sleep
last night, or I've been there,I've cried myself to sleep and

(19:39):
you literally hear like acollective sigh of oh, you too,
like a collective sigh of oh, oh, you too Right.
And then, and then, like yousaid, david, it's almost like
though it like everything comesdown then and it's like, oh,
okay, well, look, he lookspretty, uh, you know he looks,
he looks pretty strong.
And if he's crying himself tosleep, uh, and he's done that,

(20:00):
then it must be okay.
I'm not the only one.
That that's that's doing it andit's kind of just opens things
up and you're right, you need tohave somebody.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
That's willing to be able to open up and share that
kind of stuff.
But I think one of the bigthings is that it's important
for the guys to see that the onewho opens up doesn't get
attacked.
He actually gets supported.
Like in my men's group, like Igo to this men's group on Sunday
night, there's about 60 guys.
Once or twice a year there'ssome guy I'll get up there and
he'll tell like this justhorrific story from his

(20:32):
childhood and you can see likehe's it's coming out of him
because it has to, but hedoesn't really want to do it and
what ends up happening isthere's like this he'll stop
talking and there will be thisroar of support for him and like
the room just erupts in a waythat like nobody would normally
expect.

(20:52):
If they had never seen itbefore, they would expect this
guy to be like a little lambaround a whole bunch of lions
just ready to attack him.
And that's not what happens atall.
In my experience with men, I'veyet to see a group of men turn
and attack someone who's gettingNever seen it, no, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Now race is public or bigoted.

Speaker 4 (21:16):
I've seen that happen .

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Sure, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (21:19):
Like a self-regulating system.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, yeah.
So I would say another categorysorry, another category.

Speaker 2 (21:26):
On that, a lot of times people, especially in the
manosphere, people won't.
They'll say vulnerability isnot a masculine virtue, but it's
so vulnerable, kind of likeyou're saying putting myself in
a position where those otherguys could attack me.
But the masculine virtue thatis at play is courage.

(21:50):
It's courage, courage is atplay because that man is able to
open himself up and allowhimself to be seen by the other
men, and the other men see itand it resonates deeply with
them, creating a connection,creating support, creating what
we all need.
And it doesn't happen.
The connection, the intimacybetween men this is real

(22:11):
masculine intimacy doesn'thappen unless a man's willing to
open up, and that takes a hellof a lot of courage and courage
is a masculine virtue.

Speaker 3 (22:21):
Yeah, and with the vulnerability itself, it's the
willingness, willingness toconnect, the willingness and
desire to connect.
When I, when I'm willing and Idesire connection with you, then
I am opening myself up to you,I'm allowing you to, you know,
to, to see my, my, the parts ofme that aren't the strongest,

(22:45):
maybe even the parts of me thatI'm ashamed of.
You know, know, and you know,to our points here, what
normally happens is not anattack, it's normally not
judgment from other men unlessyou're in some very unhealthy
settings.
It's normally overwhelmingacceptance.

(23:05):
When I started sharing mypersonal struggles is when all
of my doors opened up to be ableto have friends.
I've never had friends likeactual deep friendship until I
was able to open up and say, hey, I want to connect with you
guys and I want to allow you tosee me for who I am.

(23:26):
I want to be able to look inthe mirror and love who I see,
even if I don't necessarily lovewhat I see in terms of the
process and the trajectory andthe journey that I'm on.
So, in terms of vulnerability,man, it begins with the
willingness to want to and havethe desire to connect and

(23:47):
connect with others.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah, and I'd say the first step is just showing up,
right, showing up to a meeting,finding somewhere and going.
And Gordon, I want to put youon the spot a little bit here.
I just got a quick questionbecause when you stepped away, I
just mentioned the differencein the growth from the first
time that you showed up in ourgroup to where you're at now and

(24:12):
I have the opportunity to spenda lot of time with you.
So I get to know you, I knowyou intimately, but share a
little bit about what was yourfirst stimulus to show up to our
group meeting that first time.

Speaker 5 (24:27):
Yeah, I think we talked a little bit about
vulnerability here and I feltvery vulnerable because I was
going through something I'dnever gone through before and
had massive repercussions for meand my two little kids, you
know, because I got smallchildren.
So for me I just I was sort oflooking for someone who'd been
there, done that, and it wastremendous to be able to sort of

(24:50):
honestly I wish I'd have foundit a lot earlier, like when I
was looking for a lawyer, but itwas good to get in there and
for me I was again looking forguidance and it was actually
really nice to be able to sortof open up to a group of guys
who'd been through this beforeand were able to share their

(25:11):
stories and share the heartachethat they were going through,
which resonated quite a bit withme.
And it was nice to be able toshare my stories as well,
because I really think that'sjust part of getting through it
right.
Because for me, I think thedivorce process is really a

(25:31):
cycle of grief in a lot of ways,where you've lost a large chunk
of your life.
It's sort of like one of thetripods of your life has been
cut off and you're starting fromscratch all over again, because
you've gone from having apretty settled family situation
to everything is questioned asto what's going on.
You know your house, your job,your relationships with friends
and uh, and obviously the personthat you were with is is no

(25:53):
longer going to be in your lifeanymore.
So for me, it was really just uh, sort of like you say, being
able to be vulnerable, come inand have that be part of getting
through the grief process,cause you can't really get
around it, you have to just goright through it.
And for me, that was the bestthing that I could possibly do
is to be around other guys whoare in the same boat as me, so
that I could also see that, hey,what I'm going through isn't

(26:17):
uncommon, it's not a reason tobe a pariah in any way.
It's fairly common, I wouldthink these days, 50% plus, you
know, go through divorce.
So I would say that it was just, you know, it's sort of it
gives you a grounding, if youwill.
That says this is, this is notsomething that I need to.

(26:38):
Uh, worry, you know, worryabout it'll be over.
There's going to be an end tothis tunnel, if you will.
It's just going to be, uhpretty hellish to get there, but
everyone is on the same path atthis point, yeah.
And honestly like my life istremendously better at this
point.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah, absolutely yeah .
So we're talking about, we'retalking about myths, right,
we're talking about the myth ofvulnerability.
What?
What else do you feel?
You guys feel is, um is a mythabout divorced dads that just
won't go away.

Speaker 4 (27:12):
They don't want to be involved with their kids.
I mean, that's the one whereI'm like, you know the deadbeat
dad syndrome.
I'm like that's just such a yes, you know, like, like in my
world I would say most dads arefighting tooth and nail to get
more time with their kids andthe fact that they have to fight

(27:32):
proves to me that their mom,that the mother of their
children, is a bad mom, becausegood moms don't make good dads
fight to see their kids andthey're just flipping it.
They're making the dads thevillain.
In the reality, the dads arethe heroes, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Yeah, so do you feel like that is an image that
continues to be pushed whereverinto society, or in family law
courts, or in family law courts,or because we know, so the five
of us know, having been aroundother dads doing work with men,

(28:12):
et cetera.
The majority, and not just asmall majority like I would say
90, some percent of men andfathers I would say 99 want to
be involved and are involved inour good dads, et cetera.
What is still pushing thisnarrative?
you want me to be honest aboutit money money okay, yeah, you

(28:35):
guys nobody can see we're notrecording video, uh.
But you know, david just heldup a lot of cash, so yeah, it's
money, because it's because,from mom's perspective, time
equals money.

Speaker 4 (28:49):
So for mom to have more time, dad has to be the
villain, dad has to be thenegligent, incompetent parent,
dad has to be the one he doesn'treally want to be there.
And so dad has to go out andearn money and then the more
time she's got, the more childsupport she gets, and that's the
the big motivator.
That's what I see time and timeagain.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
So it's the system.
The system is set up.

Speaker 4 (29:12):
No no no, no.
So you feel like it's.
It's bad moms, okay, takingadvantage of a system that is
trying to protect the children,okay.
But now the reason why I saythat you does this good moms who
want dads in their kids lives,who want 50 50.

(29:33):
That just happens and then themoney issue just plays out the
way the money issue is bad momswho are in it for the money,
cast dad as the villain, thenegligent, horrible deadbeat,
because they're in it for thechild support.
It's not the system that'spressing that.
The system allows it, but it'snot creating it.

(29:56):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
So I don't.
Yeah, give me a sec, gordon.
So I don't disagree with you.
But if so, what we'redescribing as bad moms, I would,
I would contend, are women thatmight have some mental,
emotional issues or personalitydisorders or or something
significant going on Right,which is not the majority of

(30:18):
women in our society.
I would say that that'sprobably a minority of the women
and not a, you know, not a nota huge minority of women women
too.
So if that is in fact the case,what continues to push us?
Because if it's a minority ofwomen that are pushing, is it
just because they're the loudestand the minority of women that

(30:40):
want to perpetuate this, butusually minorities.
When they are noisy, after awhile it goes away.
So is it because they're loudand the system supports their
ability to do that?
Do you see where I'm getting at?
So I agree with you when you'resaying that it's bad moms.
Yes, just like it would be baddads that are doing that.

(31:02):
If a woman's not supporting adad being involved, you know
that there's some mental,emotional issue going on,
because any healthy mom orhealthy dad wants the other
parent to be involved in intheir lives, right?

Speaker 4 (31:14):
yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (31:16):
There's also a level of and the only way to describe
it.
There's also a level ofignorance on the men's part that
are going through that process,and I mean ignorance in the
literal way, meaning they don'tdon't know again.
I'm two time offender, my firstdivorce.
I didn't know that I could askfor something.
I didn't know that I can say,you know, hey, here's what I

(31:37):
want.
I didn't know that I could, youknow, advocate for myself.
I didn't know that I didn'tknow what I didn't know.
To be totally honest with youand and you know, to what you
described, david almost became acash 22, because, you know, as
I had to go out and get twoextra part time jobs to meet
this financial requirement thatI had, I had less bandwidth to

(31:59):
be a present father in my, in mykids life, and so it just
became a cycle.
But I didn't have and this iswhy I'm a little bit miffed at
you, jude, and you, davidbecause I needed you guys 22
years ago and you weren't doingwhat you're doing now.
You chumps were way late for me.
I needed the resources that youguys have now back then, and so

(32:21):
that's why I say it's a matterof ignorance, because I didn't
have a book like yours, david.
I didn't have any kind ofsupport system like either one
of you have.
I didn't have a book like yours, david.
I didn't have any kind ofsupport system like either one
of you have.
I didn't have a coach I canreach out to, like Jude.
I didn't have that kind ofstuff.
To know that, wait a minute.
And so thereby, on my seconddivorce, I walked in.
We didn't even use an attorneyfor our divorce.

(32:43):
I walked in saying no, I want50-50.
Here's all the reasons why.
Here's all the reasons why.
Here's all the reasons thatsupport that blah, blah, blah,
blah blah.
And I laid it all out there and, man, it was crystal clear.
But the difference between myfirst and my second one was just
information.
I didn't have that, and so nothaving that information and not

(33:03):
having that support hurt me thefirst time around.
So, like I said, I needed youguys back 22 years ago and you
guys were late to my part.

Speaker 5 (33:13):
Gordon, I can corroborate with that because,
honestly, going through this wasI knew that I didn't know
enough and I was terrified ofthat exact fact, exact fact and
sure enough.
Going through this, having todeal with terrible lawyers off
the bat, just making it evenworse because they weren't

(33:36):
willing to step up and just bedecent people and tell you what
you needed to know.
They were lazy, they werenegligent, and I'm so glad that
I switched lawyers to someonewho was better because, oh my
God, they were just like yeah,whatever your ex-wife wants to
do, we'll just do that.
So, yeah, real happy that I gotsomebody new.
And to what David was sayingabout some of the bad women that
we've been exposed to my exwanted to blackmail me because

(34:01):
she was breastfeeding my son,even though he was a year and a
half old and eating solid food.
But trying to blackmail me incourt over breastfeeding me and
telling me that I would neverget to see my son, even though
he was a year and a half old andeating solid food.
But trying to blackmail me incourt over breastfeeding me and
telling me that I would neverget to see my son.
So, yeah, the ones.
I think there is that vocalminority that we have to deal
with, jude, the crazier they are, the louder they are and the
less likely they are to go away,as you and I both know.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah Well, so that's a good, that's a good point.
So what I'm what I'm hearing isthere is a vocal minority that
they that, that, it and and this, for whatever reason, has
proliferated, but also that notknowing and not being educated
enough dad's being educatedenough on what the process is
Like.
Like you said, gordon, you onlytrust, did you attorney, and if

(34:46):
the first thing you did is youhire an attorney and that's the
only thing you did, then mostlyyou're going through this
process trusting an attorney and, hey, just like any profession,
there's some really greatattorneys, like David, and
there's some really crappyattorneys out there, just like
anything.
So if you get stuck with onethat's taking you down the wrong

(35:07):
path, then then you just havethat bad experience, Like you
described, kirk, and then itbecomes a.
It becomes a cycle of of hey, Imight not have been uh
deadbeats a terrible way, but Imight not have been uh able to
to um, uh to to be able tofulfill the terms of what I got

(35:28):
into because I didn't know.
And now it's making it moredifficult, now it's making it
look like I'm a deadbeat dad,and then that just perpetuates.
And so I guess my next questionis do you feel like, because
there is more information outthere there's the internet,
there's David's group, ourgroups that there's more
information out there, that thisperception is starting to

(35:50):
change because we're gettingmore educated, because we know
more about mental health issues,etc.
To emphasize this vocalminority of mental emotion
issues and challenges, because Ithink this is where it all gets

(36:17):
really, really log jammed,because it's a bunch of these
minority, because what is?
I don't know what the statisticis, but something like 93% of
cases gets done outside of court.
So that's a two part question.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Dude, I'm going to take the question.
Guys, I want you to answerJude's question, but I'm going
to answer another questionbecause it's from the world of
therapy and kind of where we arewith this, because you guys are
talking about the world of thecourt system and bad moms and
all this.
I want to.
I want to say something aboutwhat I see with the, with the
guys, and and it's how guys, youknow, you, uh, Kirk and Gordon,
you guys were talking about howyou entered into this thing,

(36:53):
going kind of deer in theheadlights type of thing, and
most of us, most of us do.
But the problem, the big problem, is the whole nice guy syndrome
type of thing, where I'm, I'mgoing to, I'm going to do
nothing, I can't do anything topiss her off, and so my whole
world has been making her happy.
I got to make her happy, ormanaging her moods or making her

(37:13):
like me and all that.
And so all of a sudden andthat's probably the reason why I
got a divorce to begin with,unless she is one of the crazy
ones we're talking about.
But the thing is, is that thathas to change?
I have to learn how I need tobe a man of integrity, where I
need to say what needs to besaid.
I need to communicate what Iwant, even if it pisses somebody

(37:36):
off, especially her, and thatreally has to change.
That has to be a verysignificant thing that a man has
to work on and say I can't bethis nice pablum guy has to work
on and say I can't be this nicepablum guy.
I need to have more strength, Ineed to have more boundaries, I
need to say no, I need to saywhat I want.
But it takes a lot of courage,a lot of um.

(37:56):
Uh.
There's a lot of work a guy hasto do to shift from being that
nice guy and pleasing andappeasing guy um in order to
become a lot stronger and havingmore of a frame within.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
And so I wanted to say that, but I do want to keep
on going.
No, that's a really great point.
We can put my questions onpause because I think that's
important to address.
You're essentially describingcodependency codependent men
that are not comfortablecreating boundaries.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
This is a majority of guys creating boundaries and it
is a.
This is a majority of guys.
Majority of guys are isolated,like we were talking about and
this whole thing of codependentnice and I can't.
I'm a very much a pleaserappeaser type of guy.
Most guys have this as aproblem, and so that's a problem
that we can fix.
Even if you're married, you'renot divorced.

(38:44):
If you're divorced, looking atyour next marriage, whatever it
is going, I have to become amuch more internally referenced
man.
The externally referenced manis worried about what everybody
else thinks, what makes herhappy, what she expects.
All that rather than what do Iexpect?
What is my passion?
What's important to me?
What are my values?
What's my moral compass, mycode of honor All that in here.

(39:07):
What's my values, what's mymoral compass, my code of honor
all that in here.
What's my identity?
Who the hell am I Right?
That's internal reference andfrom there I can move in a
really strong way in my life andin my relationships and as a
father and as a worker orwhatever it is.
But that's the thing that hasto change and I have power over
that.
I might not have power over hermood or what she's doing in

(39:29):
this whole divorce process, butI have power to be able to build
my strength, and that's what wecan do?

Speaker 5 (39:39):
I tried to teach myself golf and I sucked at it,
right, because the reason is Ican't see how bad my swing is, I
don't know what I'm doing wrong, and you need to have that
outside perspective, someone whocan sit there and say, hey,
here's what you're doing, here'sthe pattern that you're in, you
know, this is why you'rehitting a slice every time.

(40:01):
Basically, and I think one ofthe nice things like I remember
going to therapy and having itbe I would tell them.
You know, it's really nice tocome in here and talk to you
because I feel like I'm in abizarro zone when I'm at home
with the ex-wife and her mom andeverything and nothing makes

(40:23):
sense over there until I comeand get that outside perspective
.
So I think having someone whois able to have the training,
have that outside perspectivesort of point you in the right
direction is invaluable whenyou're going through a process
like this, especially if the exhas as we've talked about, jude
mental health issues.

(40:43):
Let's be honest.

Speaker 1 (40:44):
Right right so well so you bring up a really good
point, gordon, which is so we'retalking about state of dads and
you talk about, like I'm inthis world and I'm going like,
am I crazy?
Because I'm like, I'm feelingcrazy but I'm not crazy.
And then you know, you're justyou're describing it on a
healthy relational dynamic,right, probably as well.

(41:07):
But how do we?
So the state of dads, like, howdo we, how do we cut through
that?
Because right now, the state ofdads, if you're watching movies
or you're watching sitcoms oradvertising, we're stupid, we
can't figure anything out on ourown.
Homer Simpson, peter Griffith,everything else, that's the

(41:29):
message that is out there.
That's the message that is outthere.
So when we're going throughthis man, I got to tell you I
can't.
How do you even, how do youeven come to the realization
that you're not crazy, you'rejust, maybe, codependent, maybe
you figured, maybe you'vecreated this relational dynamic
which you have, which is notworking.

(41:50):
What do you do?
Like where do you go?
I think one of the points wemade is you go to another guy
and you get around guys and thenthey're like hey look, dude,
you're freaking codependent.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
But the one thing I would love to see is I would
love to see a stake driventhrough the heart of happy wife,
happy life.

Speaker 5 (42:11):
Mm, hmm.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
Yeah, that is a phrase that just does nothing
but enslave men to a, to ataskmaster who has no idea what
they actually want.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
Oh right, yeah, no, that's perfectly said.
They run around.

Speaker 4 (42:25):
They're like I need to be happy.
You don't make me happy.
Excuse me.
My job is not to make you happy, it isn't.
It is not your responsibility.
Period.
You've got to be happy inyourself, and then you can have
a relationship Right, I thinkone of the best things I've
heard mental health is your ownresponsibility.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
Yeah, absolutely yeah , yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Well, that's a good point too, because as we start
to do that as dads, we're goingto be, because I feel like what
we've, we've created a cycle nowwith uh, uh, with, uh, the
younger generation of, of youngmen that uh that are, are
perpetuating this, uh, thiswhole mentality around that,
that happy wife, happy lifething, which is completely
unhealthy and it's only going toexacerbate the, the
dysfunctional relationships thatare.
They're co-dependent or whateverelse.
And if we can start, as dads,to break those and it's hard,
and especially if somebody islistening right now and they're

(43:24):
in the midst of it to say, hey,this is an opportunity for me,
right, this is an opportunity,through this divorce, to be able
to change a dynamic that mightbe even generational, to then
help my kiddos go forward and behealthy and functioning adults,
which you might not be thinkingabout, but I think the five of

(43:46):
us being maybe on the back well,at least those of us that have
been divorced on the backside ofthis and the others that have
worked with people divorced canlook at that and say, hey, yeah,
this is an opportunity ifyou're going to pay attention to
it.
Like, like Gordon said, ifyou're going to, it's your
responsibility, but you can dosomething about it.

Speaker 5 (44:03):
Yeah, and honestly that's a big reason I got the
divorce in the first place isbecause I wanted to.
I wanted my kids to have ahealthy life mentally healthy,
emotionally healthy and see whata good relationship looks like
and what a happy and normallyfunctioning household should be.
I can't control what's going on50% of the time, but I can

(44:24):
control what's going on 50% ofthe time, so that's my goal and
really it's the most beneficialthing I could ever possibly do
for those kids.
You know and this is one I'msorry this is one of the things
that I think when I see a lot ofthese divorced dads and these
guys who make excuses forstaying in horrible
relationships really need to getover, because you are doing the

(44:46):
right thing by getting out of abad relationship, not sticking
in it for the kid's sake.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
Men value peace mostly.
I mean most of us do, and mostof us value peace because in our
world, conflict can involvedeath.
Right, it's not that way forwomen, that that rationale is
not necessarily the same, soit's not the same value scale to
the concept or notion of peace.
And so sometimes we getconfused that the notion of

(45:20):
peace or the desire to havepeace, which is essentially kind
of the lack of conflict, withus being there and us having the
role to provide structure,Structure and conflict are two
totally different things.
And so when we show up, weshould show up with some level

(45:41):
of structure.
There's the whole flagpole andflag metaphor and you know the
riverbanks and the river and allthose kinds of things.
The challenge is, in order toprovide structure in any setting
, we got to be willing to not beliked.
Provide structure in anysetting.
We got to be willing to not beliked.
We got to be willing toadvocate for ourselves and for
what's right in the moment,regardless of the outcome.

(46:03):
We got to be willing to walk inand say, you know, in a divorce
setting, this is what I wantand this is why, Again, total
alley-oop to David.
This is why I love the angleyou took with your book of
here's what you say, here's theform, here's what you do to walk
in and say these kinds ofthings, to provide that

(46:26):
structure, because our societydoesn't like structure.
Everything is fluid these days,right?
Everything is like, notnecessarily, you know, this
other kind of stuff, and so thedesire to remove structure is

(46:46):
kind of the consequence of whatwe see in the court system and
all that kind of stuff.
So, again, I love the notion,you know, of being able to walk
in and say, hey, here's what Iwould like, here's I'm going to
speak up for myself, even ifit's not liked by her, even if
it's not, you know, even if itchallenges the status quo of
what's going on.

(47:06):
But being able to walk in withthe cojones of a man saying, hey
, I love my kids, I want my kids, I want to be in my kid's life,
regardless of what she says I'mnot that guy, you know, this is
I mean but to be able to saythings and say it the right way
and to be able to again advocatefor yourself, that's where we
need to be as men, to step inand provide structure at the

(47:30):
same time, in the absence ofconflict.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
Yeah, that's a great point.
In the absence of conflict,yeah, that's a great point.
And I want to take it a stepfurther, because I think you're
exactly right in that this wholemindset of structure and
discipline in the greatercontext of dad bad dad does not
matter, dad does not have asmuch of a role in the child

(47:56):
rearing, et cetera.
Because what we're seeing hereand, david, I'd love your
perspective on this is this nextstep is authoritarian versus
authoritative.
Men are too authoritative andtherefore the mother should have
more parenting time, and we'restarting to see some of this get

(48:16):
codified, because then he's notcooperative.
Right, like you'll stand up foryourself, Like you said, kirk,
which is what we have to do asdads.
If you're being alienated oryou're not seeing your kids or
the parenting plan isn't beingfollowed, you have to stand up
for them, you have to stayinvolved, because then it will

(48:40):
digress.
And so, david, are you seeingthat at least men start to get
this idea?
Or do we need to keep pushingthis idea of what Kurt was
talking about?
Because it's just to me, it's amess, but I see guys all the
time just getting destroyed overit.

Speaker 4 (48:59):
Yeah, I think 100%.
Times are changing.
The younger generation isdefinitely saying like I want to
be a more active father.
We're seeing that in ourpractice more and more.
We're not seeing as manydivorces because we're not
seeing as many marriages.
So we're seeing more childcustody cases.
And the book Kirk talks aboutwas my book Child Custody Action

(49:20):
Plan.
It's designed to give dadsexactly what they need to stand
up in court and say I'm a greatdad.
Here's 43 reasons why.
And now I'm asking for 50percent custody because I think
they do need to stand up.
I think they do need to standup.
I think they do need to pressthemselves.
They do need to get into courtand start arguing against the,
the presumption that mom's abetter mom just because she's

(49:42):
still breastfeeding at one and ahalf years.
You know, a guy in my grouptoday was saying his his baby
mama is arguing that he can'thave overnights because at two
and a half the kid is stillbreastfeeding it's like, like no
, you need to get into court andtell the judge, like here's
three reasons why we can workaround.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Yeah Well, and there's still, I think, like 20%
of the states that don't have50-50 custody as the default
right.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
More than that.

Speaker 5 (50:13):
Is there more than?

Speaker 1 (50:13):
that.
So we're still fighting abattle around that with that
mentality.
I wanted to comment on oneother thing, though, that Gordon
mentioned about being involvedin the fact that we need to
continue to be aware of what ourkids are consuming and what
they're seeing and hearing,Because I think, to turn this

(50:36):
tide, especially with our kiddosin the next generation, that we
need to be calling this stuffout as dads.
And I remember I watched themovie no, it's not the
Despicables, but some othermovie and it's a superhero and
the dad all of a sudden can't bea superhero because he's too

(50:57):
violent and the mom takes overthe superheroing and anything.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
The Incredibles, yeah , the.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
Incredibles 2.
And it was just.
It was so anti-dad andanti-family.
It's just ridiculous.
But we have this stuffeverywhere and I've just started
to have conversations with mydaughters about, hey, does that
look like any dad?
And I remember when I did thisI said that movie, it was fun,
whatever silly.
Does that dad look like any dadthat you know in our sphere of

(51:26):
dads?
And they're like, no, notreally.
I'm like okay.
And then just being aware ofthis stuff, with the reading in
school, I can't tell you thecrap that they're reading in
school.
I just was talking to mydaughter about some, you know,
some, some venomous manifestothat they're, they're, they're,
they're reading in, in, in, inschool and for pleasure and

(51:47):
whatnot.
We need to be calling.
But that takes us being really,really active Right All the
time, even if it's 50 percent,but 50, a hundred percent of the
time, 50% of the time, andbeing aware of this and having
those conversations all of thetime with them and pointing this
stuff out Because, like mydaughters now will be like, yeah
, we see that dad, or yeah, dad,because they know it's going to

(52:09):
come up, but they're, they'refriends and so many kids out
there don't see it and there's alot of dads that don't see it
as well.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Dude, what you're talking about?
What you're talking about is anarrative, it's a story, and
it's a story that's been toldfor my whole lifetime.
I'm 64 years old, I was born in61.
And the thing is, back then itwasn't toxic masculinity, but
back then it was a malechauvinist pig.
And it's been going on eversince.

(52:39):
And is this story?
It's a story that you suck as aman.
You're oppressive, you suckstupid, you don't know what
you're doing, you're notemotional, you're not everything
.
I mean all the differentcategories.
It's a story, it's a narrativethat's been told.
And what you're talking about,jude, is holding up a new, true

(53:00):
narrative.
It's not new, but it's a truenarrative.
Every guy what did we say?
95% of guys we run into arepassionately wanting their
children.
Right, there's so many guysthat are just good, good men
make the mistake of being ahappy wife, happy life guy.
But they knew that.

(53:21):
If I knew really how to rolland how to love, I wouldn't do
that.
But most guys across the boardare incredible individuals and
being the gatekeeper of thenarrative is what we're doing
right here.
We're telling a story.
The gatekeeper of the narrativeis what we're doing.
Right here.
We're telling a story.
Men are good, fathers are good.
I mean, if you have ever beento a church on Mother's Day,
everything is oh, moms areamazing.

(53:42):
But if you go to Father's Dayon a church, they're always.
You guys suck and you guys needto pick it up.
I'm telling you that's horribleBecause the narrative, the
story of men, of fathers, is notgood.
But what you're talking about,jude, and what we're doing here
with this moment of this podcast, is here's the real story about

(54:04):
what men are all about.
They're isolating, which is amajor problem.
They're being too nice withouta really solid core, and that's
a problem.
We're not speaking up for whatwe want and need.
We're not setting boundariesand holding people accountable
for what we need and advocatingfor ourselves.
These are the issues.
It's not because I suck,because men do not suck.

(54:27):
Every single study out thereshows that a father in the home
has massive positive outcomesEvery study.
It's insane how the studies arejust amazing.
And so what you're talkingabout, jude, is how do we tell
the true story about men and howdo we live according to that
ourselves?
That's such a big part of thiswhole thing.

Speaker 4 (54:49):
If I could just jump in on one thing Ken just said
that men are isolating and Idon't disagree that there's a
lot of isolation of men.
But one of the big issues thatI see in my community is men who
have been isolated by the womanin their life who's like well,
I don't want you hanging outwith Gordon.

(55:11):
He's like he's always in thatfucking pickleball.
You don't need to be spendingSaturdays playing pickleball.
I don't like Kurt.
He's too talkative.
I don't like Kurt, he's tootalkative.
I don't like Kent.
Kent's just too lazy.
And they isolate, they pushaway the guy's friends which, by
the way, is emotional abusethese days but nobody wants to
talk about that.
And then when the relationshipbreaks up, he's got no support

(55:32):
network.
So yes, isolating, but that'sbecause he's been isolated.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
I love it, that's right.

Speaker 5 (55:39):
Yeah, and honestly, I'll tell you another thing here
too, david, as a single dadwith young kids I don't know
what the right word is, becauseit's Saturday and I have two
kids, so but but it's basicallylike there's a double standard,
as we've talked about earlier,with women versus men, right,

(55:59):
and one of the ones that I'mrunning into is it's really hard
for me as a, as a guy, to goand make friends with kids that
are around my age, cause most ofthese are women, and women see
me as a single guy and they'relike what's wrong with him, you
know, um, with these two kids.
And women see me as a singleguy and they're like what's
wrong with him, you know, withthese two kids, and it's really
hard, whereas if I was a woman,every one of those ladies would

(56:22):
have wanted to, you know, get tobe, get to know me, be friends
with me, all that stuff.

Speaker 4 (56:26):
So well, they want to get to know you, they want to
be friends with you, becausewomen are naturally so
competitive.

Speaker 5 (56:37):
That's fair, but what I'm saying is it's harder, I
think, as a guy, for me, becausereally what I'm trying to do, I
have kids that are three andfive and before I got my
daughter into school it was verydifficult for me to help her
make new friends, because it washard for me to approach other
people and have them I don'tknow follow up with anything
that I wanted to do, or just gettogether and and and hang out

(56:57):
in the park with kids and letthe kids get together and know
each other.
You know.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
And that was.

Speaker 5 (57:01):
my whole goal is is building up not only a community
for me but a community for mykids so that they could have
friends in their in myneighborhood and get to know
kids and get socialized that way, because when they go to their
moms it doesn't happen.
They sit on the couch and donothing and don't get out of the

(57:22):
house.
So I've taken that upon myselfto get that done and it's hard
with that double standard rightnow.
I must say.

Speaker 4 (57:26):
Absolutely.
That's where guys and BoyScouts and Girl Scouts would
hopefully be a good avenue in.

Speaker 5 (57:35):
Well, my hope is that I'm going to get both of my
kids in the school this fall,because my wackadoo ex does not
want my son to go to school andhe's three, and I've even
offered to pay for preschool andshe's not wanting to do that.

Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah, yeah.
So let's put a bow on it here.
I think you guys just prettysuccinctly, starting with Ken,
summarize kind of what we'retalking about the state of dads,
the isolation and thechallenges in being vulnerable

(58:15):
and getting out there andgetting the support that they
need and deserve, and then thechallenges of kind of the
general consensus of dads andtheir value, etc.
So, if we can give a grade, ifwe can give a grade, we'll go

(58:38):
around and give a grade as tothe state of dads in 2025.
Right now, what grade would yougive it and why?
And so I guess I will start,since I asked the question and
I've thought about this before,I would give it a C and I give

(59:00):
it a C.
So, looking from two differentperspectives, I would give it a
C from the guys in a positiveway, because the guys that I
come in contact with that are inpart of the community, are so
conscientious Guys, like Gordonand others, that care so much

(59:21):
that he's got his kids today.
He cares so much to come on toshare with other guys about the
community, as I asked him to doso much, that, uh, that it gets.
This is what drives me everyday and gives is gives me hope
because they care so much abouttheir kids and they care so much
about their future.

(59:41):
I know the hell that he's beenthrough.
I know the hell that some ofthese guys have been through
through no fault of their own,other than maybe what we talked
about a relational dynamic thatthey've gotten into because of
whatever childhood uh issues, uh, whatever childhood issues.
And now they're being destroyed.
And we didn't even get into theissue of suicide or anything

(01:00:03):
else.
Divorced dads are eight to ninetimes more prone to suicide
than other men, which is already70 or 80% of all suicides.
So it's absolutely like ahealth issue that should be at
the forefront of every newschannel and everywhere else.
So I give it a C because thesemen are just fighting all the

(01:00:27):
time and it's absolutely amazing.
But I give it a C on thebackside because we're not.
If this was anybody or anythingor any other class of people out
there, this would be a nationalemergency.
It would be all over the place.
It would be dads.
You know, Ken referenced thestudies.

(01:00:47):
There's not a single studyanywhere in the entire world for
the duration of history thathas any negative connotation
about fathers being involved intheir kids' lives.
It's only all positive, and sowe have the information, but
there's a disconnect because ofwhatever the agenda is which
we're not going to get to, wehaven't gotten into, and so

(01:01:10):
that's why I feel that we I'llwrap it up that we can move that
to a B or to the A just by, asdads, in the context of this
podcast, continuing to fightthrough what we need to fight
through fighting for your timewith your kids, making sure that
you're doing the stuff to takecare of yourself, to make sure

(01:01:31):
that you can be present whenyou're with your kids and turn
that tide so that we can be anexample.
So that's me.
I gave it a letter C.
Who wants to be next?
You can be present when you'rewith your kids and turn that
tide so that we can be anexample.
So that's me.
I gave it a letter C.
Who wants to be next?
Ken Kirk go ahead.

Speaker 3 (01:01:45):
Go ahead.
Kirk, as I was listening to you, I came up with a B.
I came up with a B because I'moptimistic.
I came up with a B.
I came up with a B because I'moptimistic.
Basically, I agree witheverything you just said.
I think I'm just that teacherthat always rounds up, probably
because I was that kid thatalways needed a teacher to round

(01:02:07):
up to give me the benefit ofthe doubt.
And I give men the benefit ofthe doubt these days.
And, like I to a, I go to a bbecause I firmly believe that
most men are good men.
Um, you know, and and uh, thereare some bad apples out there,
but most men by far are good men.

(01:02:29):
And speaking and thinking aboutmyself back in you know those
couple of instances when I wasgoing through that, uh, I would
say to that guy even if yourmarriage has failed, that
doesn't make you a failure.
And even if you're broke,busted and disgusted in every
way, and if it looks like you'vetaken L's left and right, I can

(01:02:52):
tell you down the road that itwill get better.
You will survive this.
It will get better.
Um, you will be.
You will survive this.
It will get better.
Um, you know, just sometimesyou got to embrace the suck in
life to get through some of ourmistakes, uh, but I'm optimistic
that most good men that are outthere will do what it takes.
They'll listen to conversationslike this.

(01:03:13):
They'll connect with other guys.
They'll connect with, you know,with a ken, with the jude, with
the david.
You know they'll connect withother guys.
They'll connect with you know,with a Ken, with a Jude, with a
David.
You know they'll connect withthe resources that it takes to
get through this thing.
You don't have to get throughit alone and so, like I said I
would, I would go B just becauseI'm more on the optimistic side
.

Speaker 1 (01:03:31):
Good kid, I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Well said, kirk.
I liked it.
Yeah.
So I was thinking B as well.
I wasn't thinking that I'moptimistic, but it was.
I really believe in men, Ibelieve in guys, but the reason
why it wouldn't be an A oranything like that is because we
are facing incredible obstaclesin a ton of different places,

(01:03:56):
of different places.
But the obstacles and Kirk, youwere kind of alluding to it
with the embrace, the suck, it'slike obstacles are the way to
grow.
Obstacles are the way that wefind out who the hell we really
are.
That's how we find out how,building our own confidence,
building our identity, findingout what we're capable of, that
we're not so damn fragile thatwe can handle really difficult
things.
And I think, as we find thosethings out because those

(01:04:18):
obstacles are there that's howwe discover who we are.
And being able to embrace thatand being able to take
responsibility rather than beingresponsible for your woman's
mood or whatever, being able tosay I'm going to be responsible
for me and that is what I havecontrol over, nothing else and

(01:04:39):
being able to do those thingsand move forward.
I think guys do it all the timeand even though things are
difficult, we can make somethinghappen by embracing it and
building our strength andgetting through that.
So yeah, I would give it a B.
Awesome Gordon.

Speaker 5 (01:04:56):
Yeah, I'd give it a B too, and it's funny that you
mentioned the suck Kirk, becausethat's what I called my first
year was the year of suck, andI've gotten through it and the
light is shining bright rightnow.
So I got to say that honestly,it's like I think the cards are
stacked against us.
Things are getting better.
Could be a lot worse Talk toanyone in California who's going

(01:05:18):
through this process.
So at least there's states thataren't where you can get 50-50
right off the bat and not haveto deal with the nonsense like
you have to in California.
Honestly, one of the thingsthat I am impressed by is just
the caliber of guys that I'verun across through this process

(01:05:39):
who have been able to help mestep up and just be there for
people who are going throughthis whole thing.
So, honestly, I believe in, I'man optimist at heart and I
believe in all the folks who'vehelped me through.
So all good Nice.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
Nice, nice, david, wrap us up.

Speaker 4 (01:06:00):
I'm going to be the contrarian here.
I'm going to say it's a minus,and the reason why was it?
It's a D or a D minus D minus.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
Okay, shoot, I wasn't the lowest one, okay, okay.

Speaker 4 (01:06:20):
And the reason why I say that is because we're under
attack as men in our society onso many fronts.
Yeah, in fatherhood is probablyjust like the tip of the spear
on this one, because it's aneasy one to attack, because in
family court, whoever's thebiggest victim is the biggest
winner and, as we all, know'sgreatest strength is their
ability to play a victim.
They cry and all of a suddeneverybody comes rushing in white

(01:06:41):
knighting and taking care ofthem.
So men are under attack onseveral different fronts.
I think fatherhood is hugelyunder attack because there's
money involved, because it's ahuge factor in the domestic
violence lobby and that entireindustry, which we haven't even
really touched on at all.
That's a huge factor in all ofthis.
I think society as a whole isundergoing a massive shift and,

(01:07:06):
as a consequence, women arefighting back and fatherhood is
one of the most important placesto attack men, because it cuts
right to the heart of who theyare, and if you attack a man on
his career, it's like whateverhe'll go get a new one.
You take away a man's kids likeyou're taking away his entire
purpose, and so I think we're.

(01:07:26):
I think men are under attack.
I think dads are under attackand I think the state of
fatherhood is definitely.
We need dads to like stand upand stand up and start going
into court and getting moreattention and more time and
start being the men that theywere meant to be, because kids
aren't seeing it and they needto see more of it because, as
you pointed out, even thesuperheroes in the Incredibles.

(01:07:49):
He's hobbled because he'sviolent.
It's like no violence isnecessary sometimes.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
So we got three Bs, a C and a Dminus, which I think is fair,
considering it probably shouldhave been what's the state of
dads in the context of oursociety?
What's the state of dads andthe dads that we're seeing?
Because I think we all agreethat dads are tremendous and we

(01:08:18):
are all involved with andsurrounded by a lot of
tremendous dads that are workingincredibly hard, that are great
dads that sometimes have a lotof cards stacked against them
and are persevering.
But the flip side of that isthe state of dads in the context
of in our society, and wherewe're at is difficult and

(01:08:38):
challenging.
It is not, I would say not evenclose to where it needs to be
in, where we can have a healthydynamic between men and women,
and so, unfortunately, that'swhere we're at and so,
unfortunately, that's wherewe're at.
But again, that's what each oneof you I know is working really

(01:09:03):
hard to change and either stemthe tide or change the momentum
completely.
So I sincerely appreciate eachone of you on that context, but
just at the heart of it, asbeing tremendous dads, each one
of you, and on this Father's Day.
So I'm just going to close inwishing you all a happy Father's
Day, wishing each one of thosemen that are dads that are out

(01:09:27):
there happy Father's Day and, ifyou're going through it, get
involved with the DwarfsAdvocate community, one of the
communities of any of thegentlemen, that's uh, that are
on today.
Uh, we'll have some informationin the show notes If anything
resonated with you.
Uh, sharing uh this far andwide with everybody is good,
because, uh, I can't do all thework, ken can't do all the work,

(01:09:50):
david can't, like we can't alldo the work.
So that's why, the more peoplewe have on, the more things that
might resonate with one orsomebody else.
I want you guys to get the helpthat you need.
Everybody's help is potentiallydifferent, so get involved
where it's going to be the bestfor you and your family.
So, fellas, thanks so much.

(01:10:11):
It's always an honor having youguys on and listening, but this
was really special to be ableto share.
We could probably talk for likefive guys on and listening, but
this was a really special to tobe able to share.
We could probably talk for likefive more hours and do a Joe
Rogan style long form threehours.
So maybe we'll think about thatsometime in the future, but but
this was awesome.
I think we talked about this alot of good stuff.
Thanks so much.
God bless guys.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
Thank you Appreciate it.

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260 - The State of Dads: 5th Anniversary Episode

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}260 - The State of Dads: 5th Anniversary Episode