June 23, 2025 • 61 mins
Imagine ending your marriage without destroying your family. That's the promise of divorce mediation when done right, and few know this process better than Joe Dillon.
Having watched his parents' bitter litigation end with the last time he ever saw his father at age 15, Dillon transformed personal pain into professional purpose. Now, with a remarkable 98% success rate (far above the industry average of 70%), he shares exactly how couples can navigate divorce with dignity, financial clarity, and preserved relationships.
Joe's Website: https://www.equitablemediation.com/
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*FREE Dads Guide To Divorce* How to survive and thrive during and after divorce: http://www.dadsguidetodivorce.com
Don't suffer in silence! Get relief from the pain and confusion of your divorce and schedule your FREE, No Obligation Coaching Consultation - schedule a time directly into my schedule at www.TalkWithJude.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for listening.
Today We've got an importanttopic that I realized that I
have neglected to do any kind ofepisode or really education or
sharing on in the five yearsthat we've been recording this
podcast, and so my guest todayreached out to me and it clicked
(00:25):
in my head and it was a naturalto get together and chat with
him.
But before I introduce him, Iwant to remind you to go to
thedivorcedadvocatecom and checkout all the resources that we
have there so that you can getthe help that you deserve and
need.
We've got everything from freeto paid resources.
Wherever you're at in yourdivorce whether you're just
(00:47):
contemplating or post-divorcewe've got something that can
help you out there.
So check it out atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
My guest today is a trailblazerin divorce mediation.
He's helping couples end theirmarriages with dignity and
financial clarity for over 17years as co-founder of Equitable
(01:11):
Mediation Services.
He brings an MBA in finance andadvanced training from Harvard,
mit and Northwestern to guidecouples toward fair, lasting
agreements that protect bothemotional well-being and
financial stability agreementsthat protect both emotional
well-being and financialstability.
He launched virtual divorcemediation in 2011, nearly a
(01:32):
decade before it became the normduring the pandemic.
The results speak forthemselves.
Equitable Mediation Serviceshas a 98% case resolution rate,
which is remarkable, and is farabove the industry average of
70%.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Please help me in welcoming Joe Dillon, thanks for
having me, jude, very excitedto be here.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Joe, thanks for reaching out.
Like I mentioned, I have beenremiss in not really diving into
this.
I think we've talked aboutpositives of mediation and
finding an attorney andeverything else mediation and
finding an attorney and likeeverything else but we haven't
really dove into mediation andthe positives and the negatives
and how you get a 98% caseresolution.
(02:12):
I think I was telling you rightbefore we started recording
I've been in mediation six orseven times and I'm old for six
or seven, so I'm really curiousto know how you got to that too.
But before we jump into some ofthat, just share a little bit
about, for 17 years now, why youkeep showing up to arguing
(02:33):
couples every single day andhelping them to figure out what
they've got going on.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So a little bit about me.
My parents litigated theirdivorce, so a therapist would
probably have a field day withme.
My parents litigated theirdivorce, so you know, a
therapist would probably have afield day with me because
they're like well, dude, this istotally why you do this.
But you know they litigatedthis back in the 80s and you
(02:59):
know this was before reallymediation was a thing, and so we
started.
I started thinking about it.
Right, it's like they foughtfor years, they spent so much
money and then, literally thelast time I saw my father, I was
15 years old.
I was sitting in the back of acourtroom in the hallway.
My parents were like stillyelling at each other in the
hallway.
My dad walked out of thecourtroom and that was literally
the last time I saw him orspoke to him again.
(03:21):
And then, about five years ago,I got a letter saying he had
died and so that was it.
And when you look at that, whenyou think about that as dads,
dads are important role modelsand they're important players in
kids' lives, and to not have adad in my life my mom, of course
(03:41):
, did a great job, did the bestshe could, but there's roles
that dads play that are reallycritically important and I just
wish that they to not have a dadin my life.
My mom, of course, did a greatjob, did the best she could, but
there's roles that dads playthat are really critically
important and I just wish thatthey could have put the lawyers
aside, talk to each other aspeople, like directly, because I
was sitting right there, by theway, and said you know what do
we have to do?
That's in the best interest ofthis kid here, because I'm an
(04:02):
only child.
So every time when I get, asyou said, I get into the room
and I get into the space.
I think to myself I want tohelp couples avoid what happened
to me, right, I want them.
I say look, you are not goingto be husband and wife anymore,
but you're always going to bemom and dad, and that is a role
that will not change.
So I think that's what keeps meshowing up every single day
(04:23):
knowing that there are familiesout there who are still at the
birthday parties together, stillsitting at each other at the
graduations, can be at thewedding together.
I didn't have any of that, soyou know, I feel like I really
missed out, and so that's reallythe deep answer.
I hope that's not too deep forthe audience.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, no, well, I think that adds some some
credibility is uh as as well tothat.
It's uh, it's obviously uh sadthat that that's what has
happened, but I think that manyof the dads that are listening
can relate to to some of that.
One of the things.
I have noticed in doing thiswork for so long now, that some
(05:02):
of this stuff is generationalright.
So my parents were divorced, myparents' parents were divorced
as well, and it seems to be athing that gets carried on,
unless there is a mindset, likeyou just mentioned, which is,
hey, we need to reframe this, aswe might not be together, but
(05:22):
we're going to be parents and weneed and we need to be looking,
uh, at this, uh, from adifferent perspective, which uh
if somebody is healthy and is ina healthy mindset, doesn't have
mental, emotional challengesgoing on or something else, then
uh, then mediation probably is,uh is something that's positive
(05:43):
.
So share with us then why thatmediation is positive and maybe
some misconceptions aroundmediation and going to mediation
.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah.
So I think the thing that forme with mediation is that think
about when you have a lawyer,right?
So two sides have a lawyer andthe lawyers are communicating,
and it's this sort of likefaceless interaction.
Right, you're not seeing thatyou're hurting the other person?
Supposedly, this was a personthat you at some point in your
(06:13):
life pledged your undying loveto, right?
So even at a bare minimum right, you'd want to treat this
person like a human.
And because of the adversarialnature of the legal system, the
lawyer is hired to win for theirclient, right, and they don't
care if they hurt on the otherside, as long as I win, I get
the best settlement, and that'shappening from both sides.
(06:35):
Mediation removes that and putsthe two people face to face, and
I think that's really what thekey is is that it's sort of like
I'll say this to you, right, weboth have websites, and if you
had, say, a commenting sectionthat was unmoderated on your
website, it's real easy forsomebody who doesn't have to
register to come in and makesome snarky comment, right, and
(06:57):
then just ascend and walk away.
But if I had to look at you andgive you my name, my address,
my phone number a photo ofmyself.
It would be a lot harder for meto do that right.
And mediation is the same way.
If I'm sitting across from you,it's a lot harder to yell, to
be mean, to call names and,quite frankly, to try to like I
(07:19):
don't want to say pull one overon the other person.
But you know, if you're staringat somebody and the other person
looks at you and goes, come on,really Really, you can't good
faith.
Like you said, you have to havethe mental acuity, of course,
but you can't good faith say, ohyeah, absolutely, that's true.
Oh yeah, I was like, yeah,you're right, I'm kind of being
a jerk.
So it takes a lot of the airout of the balloon, a lot of the
(07:42):
emotions, and by doing thatnegotiation direct you can clear
up a lot of misconceptions, getpeople to treat each other like
humans and I really think thattakes the temperature down and
it's really, to me, the key tothe whole process.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Right.
So do you require couples tosit in the same room while they
are mediating?
Couples to sit in the same roomwhile they are mediating, or
now you do it, now you're doingit virtually, right, uh, and I
guess the along that sameconcept.
Do they have to be face to facewith each other, or do you?
Because I've been in mediationboth ways, right, yeah, yeah, so
I'm always of the mind.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So what you're referring to.
There's two kinds of mediation,right?
So the kind of mediation I do,everybody's in the room quote,
unquote.
Right Now, if you're on oneZoom and the other person's on a
different Zoom, sure, noproblem.
We're each in our own separatevideo feeds, but I'm always
working one on two.
There are some mediators whowork in a fashion that's known
as shuttle mediation, like themediator shuttles back and forth
(08:40):
between the rooms, right?
I find that kind of breedsmistrust, because one party is
sitting there now just waiting,right, and what are you thinking
?
What's that mediator saying tomy husband or my wife or you
know?
And so if you're all in theroom, like, think about when you
were a little kid, right, howrumors got started, and that you
know the game of telephone orwhatever it is Like, if you're
(09:00):
all together, you can clear upthat rumor real quick.
But if somebody goes into adifferent room, says something,
they come back.
Even as a practitioner, let'sjust be quite honest, right,
this is a hard enough jobwithout me having to remember
what one person said, told me,told me what I can't tell the
other person, right, and I'mjust like I'm not going to do
that right.
So you get everybody in thesame room.
(09:22):
It makes the conversation go alot better, clarifies any issues
and it really does like I saidit reduces that conflict.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Okay, so do you feel like that is one of the reasons
why you might have a much highersuccess rate?
Because I think probably themajority of times and this was
by request of my ex, probablythe majority of times and this
was by request of my ex we werein separate rooms, and even when
(09:52):
we did virtual mediation wewere in separate rooms so she
would never, ever have to lookat me, never have to be directly
communicating with me.
Do you feel like that is one ofthe reasons that you have such
a high success rate?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I think so.
I think having peopleone-on-two, even if they're, say
, for example, taking the Zoomcall from a separate room,
obviously there's power dynamicsin relationships, right?
So some people are comfortablesitting next to each other, some
people aren't and they want tobe able to speak up, and so if
that means you're in the bedroomand you're in the you know
guest room or whatever it is onZoom, fine.
(10:27):
But I do think that leads tothat, because it does really,
like I said, it takes thetemperature down, clarifies a
lot of issues and also, let's behonest, right, you know,
without being coy about it, thisis not the most fun someone has
ever had.
Right, getting a divorce.
Do you really want this processto drag on for years and years?
(10:49):
No, you want to move throughthe process in a structured and
organized fashion, right, it'snot like you want to sound like
oh, this is a businesstransaction and we're going to
move you through, but you don'twant it to drag on, like my
parents, it was like three years.
It's like what are you doing?
You know who is benefiting fromthis Lawyers, right?
(11:09):
That's who's benefiting fromthis.
Are you getting on with yourlife?
No, am I getting on with mylife as your child, no, you know
.
So, again, that also expeditesthe conversation.
It gets people to move throughthe process faster, come to a
conclusion and like, say thisguy to guy here it's like I'm
half Irish, half Italian, so I'mvery stoic.
I was like don't worry about it, suppress your feelings.
(11:31):
That's how I was raised and alot of guys don't realize that
there's going to be thisemotional avalanche at the end
that they need to let happen andthey need to welcome it.
And the sooner they get there,the sooner they can have the
breakdown, rebuild and moveforward Right, and that's really
what my goal is to try to helpthem do that.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Right.
Well, so you?
So you bring up a good pointwhich are there are a lot of
emotions that come up in thisprocess Finances is probably one
of the biggest ones that peopleget obviously wrapped around
the axle, if you will, on.
How do you manage that whenyou're in the process, when
(12:16):
you're in that, and when thoseemotions start to get whether
they get heated or whether theyget sad or fearful, I think
probably, if you really want todo a psychoanalysis of it, which
we're not going to do today itcomes down to fear on both sides
Fear I'm not going to haveenough, fear I'm not going to be
able to provide it whatever itis.
(12:36):
But how do you manage that?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah.
So, as you know, I have an MBAin finance, and so I bring this
kind of financial perspective toit, because you're absolutely
right.
Think about the topics in adivorce parenting, child support
, alimony, property division.
Three of the four are financialright and, by the way, in most
of the states we practice in,the parenting plan is an input
into the calculation childsupport.
(12:59):
So I'll call three and a halfright.
And so, going back to what wewere talking about before, about
looking someone in the eye andbeing able to say to them
something serious and have themtake you serious.
What I like to do is I have thisprocess that I've developed,
and so I first start people outby preparing these budgets, and
(13:19):
so these are budget workbooks ofmy own design.
We do a joint budget, and thatshows me what your marital
lifestyle looks like.
So what that does is it sayslook, guys, are you living at
your means, below your means orbeyond your means?
Because guess what, as soon asyou separate households, life's
going to get more expensive.
And if you were going intocredit card debt while you're
living together, there's noextra money hiding around for
(13:41):
extra alimony or child support,right?
So we level that playing fieldfirst.
Then we get the apart budgetsand we say look, here's your
lives comparatively post-divorce.
Is it fair that this person'ssleeping on his friend's couch
in the basement while thisperson is still staying in the
house?
Right, look at the numbers thisperson's spending I don't know
$7,000 a month.
(14:02):
This one's trying to spend$1,500.
Is that really fair?
Is that good for your kids?
Does your kids want to visitdad in the friend's basement?
You know like you know.
So you have that firstconversation, a level set to say
, look, this is what we've gotfinancially right.
There's no lies here.
Here it all is financiallyright.
There's no lies here.
(14:22):
Here it all is.
So that's the first thing thatwe do right, and so that
certainly helps.
Then, from there, the secondthing that happens is we do a
balance sheet and we put all theassets and liabilities out on
the table.
Because what I've found is alot of people like to talk about
stuff piecemeal and what theydo is they pick one thing, like
(14:43):
the house or the car, or the401k or whatever, and they just
go after it.
And I'm like, guys, this islike a big, you got to look at
the whole picture right.
And so when we get it all outon the table, it's like, well,
here's all the statements, right?
Because I asked him to give mecopies of the statement.
Here's a spreadsheet with allyour assets and liabilities
there is no money hiding in abank account.
Spreadsheet with all yourassets and liabilities there is
(15:04):
no money hiding in a bankaccount.
Here's all the credit reports.
Here's all the research we didon all your open accounts, right
?
And so what you see is I'mtrying to do is I'm removing the
emotions before we makedecisions.
So I like to say do thediscovery before the deciding.
And as guys I am Mr Guilty ofthis I am a solutions-oriented
(15:25):
guy.
I want to fix the problem rightaway.
I go right into solutions mode.
What you need to do is you needto go into research, step back,
lay it all out, then you canhave the conversation.
So that's how we approach itTake those emotions out so the
conversations can be moreproductive.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Right, well, so those are two things already that I
can tell that, at least in myexperience, has not happened is
being face to face, right,because that does humanize it
and does make it different.
And then what you're talkingabout, with that preparation up
front and having full financialpicture, knowing everything
(16:02):
that's going on.
I think you said pulling credit, pulling credit reports too, so
you can see what's what.
That's something that I'venever heard of, and I think
that's a brilliant idea, because, right, because then that, then
that's uh, that uh puts to restany mistrust or anything or any
ability to lie about uh,anything, uh period, if you've
got that and you're able totrade that and look at that and
(16:25):
know.
Hey, this is what it is.
There's no money here.
This is what we're dealing with.
It sounds like you do a lotmore upfront preparation with
the couples before schedulingand having them show up so that
there's more there's, there's,there's more to, to going on,
(16:48):
which I think is, I mean, that'sbrilliant.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, that, that can um do you do you so?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
how do you get so?
One of the things that that Irun into the most is when one
party just doesn't have arealistic expectation when
they're coming into mediation.
Of course it happens all thetime.
It doesn't really matter who itis, whether it's the man or the
(17:24):
woman, but one party seems tojust not have a realistic
expectation oftentimes.
How do you move past that thenwhen somebody shows up, even if
you have all of thedocumentation and the credit
reports and your spreadsheetdeveloped in your MBA program?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
and everything else, and then somebody right.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And and and.
But the one person that showedup thinking, because most of us
don't check the statutes, likeyou mentioned, the child support
is going to be tied to thenumber of uh, number of nights,
et cetera, that you have in aparenting plan.
So so one person has not donethe work, doesn't know the
statutes, doesn't understand.
(18:09):
Have this maybe misconceptionthat their life is going to be
the same post-divorce, if notbetter?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
post-divorce.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
But they're going to maintain exactly the same
lifestyle with two householdsnow, which makes no sense.
But again, we're not thinkinglogically oftentimes through
this process.
How do you mitigate that whenthere's one person?
That just is completelyunrealistic.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, great question, and that does happen frequently
.
So the way I handle it, there'stwo parts to that.
The first we've already talkedabout are those budgets, right.
So what we do is, when we dothe joint budget, let's just use
some silly round numbers.
Let's say, a couple livingtogether spends $5,000 a month
on their living expenses, right,their house and their car and
their groceries and whatever.
(18:56):
And then when we take theirapart budgets and we review them
and we add them together, oneperson is spending 4,000 and the
other one's spending $3,500,right.
And so I say, okay, folks,$5,000 together, $7,500 apart,
$2,500 is the cost of divorce.
Right, that's the phrase I use.
Okay, so that's what it's goingto cost you guys every month to
(19:19):
be divorced.
So, $2,500 times 12, whatever.
That math is right.
$30,000.
I did some math, right?
Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, let meask you guys a question Do you
have $30,000 lying around rightnow?
Do you put $30,000 a year awayin the bank?
And most people will be like no.
I said, okay, where's thatcoming from?
Right?
So we first established thatthere's going to be a challenge,
(19:40):
right.
Then the second thing we do andthis is a great thing for your
listeners to remember, this iskind of negotiation technique,
is you say, here's a greatquestion?
So this is what I wanteverybody to hear.
Help me understand, right, whenyou say you, you do this, you
don't get it, it's like, well,the person's taking that as an
(20:01):
attack and of course, they'regoing to only entrench in their
position.
Okay, you want $5,000 a monthin alimony?
Okay, help me understand how Ican pay that to you.
If I can do it, I'm reallywilling to listen.
And now the person, instead ofyou proving their point, they
have to prove their own point,and what I've noticed is a lot
(20:22):
of people really, what it doesis it paints them into a corner
to reality check themselves,right.
And then all of a sudden theygo well, yeah, you only bring
home $4,500 a month, I guess I'mnot getting 5,000 an hour money
.
And the other person goes right, you know.
And then there's like a momentright, you're always, as a
mediator, looking for thosemoments where somebody's like
has a little bit of empathy forthe other person, and so that's
(20:45):
how we do it.
And I say like, hey, listen,I'm all ears.
Right, I'm neutral, I don'thave a horse in this race, but
help me understand how that'spossible.
And then a lot of people, whenthey start talking it through
and trying to explain it andtrying to figure it out, they
usually can't.
And even if they say, I don'tcare, that's what I want.
(21:06):
Then the third option, which iswhat I prefer not to get to, is
you say, okay, let's do that,let's take a look at what it
would be like if I pay you$5,000 a month.
Here's my budget.
Right?
Take a look at my budget.
Do you agree?
My budget is correct.
Yeah, I spend $4,000 a month.
Yeah, I bring home 5,000 amonth.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, so how do I pay my?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
bills, right.
And then again you're you'retrying to get the other person
to say you know what?
That doesn't make sense.
Because if you tell them intheir head it makes sense.
But you do everything you canto just like we were talking
about that discovery, puteverything onto the table and
let them come to that conclusion.
Right, and because I believe inmy heart of hearts that most
(21:49):
people are rational actors,right, most people are
reasonable.
It's the circumstances thatwind you up.
Right, you know, somebody cutsyou off in traffic, I'm not a
maniac, but if somebody cuts meoff suddenly, I am right.
And same thing in thesesituations.
So in those examples, whatyou're always trying to do is
sure, I'm listening, I'm willing, as the recipient of that
(22:09):
request, I'm willing to give ita shot.
Help me understand how that'spossible.
Let's talk about it.
And then you stay quiet and youlet the other person try to
explain themselves.
That's how you do it Make sense.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, no, that's terrific and I like that
(22:46):
no-transcript Because, like whatyou just described as guys,
naturally we want a problemsolved and we want to figure
this out.
And I've worked with enoughguys, and you probably have too.
Like we probably have come tothis mediation with a plan A, b.
C and D come to this mediationwith a plan a, b, c and d and
(23:10):
most of our minds of like whatwe can do, what we can't do,
what we'd like to do, what we'relike, all these different,
different scenarios that that wecan try to to work out.
And I tell you, I coach someguys that literally show up with
the spreadsheets of those three, four or five different
scenarios how you're going to gothrough it, which I have
respect for and I and I and Iand I do appreciate that, but
(23:30):
but that's a great, greatquestion.
So so I've got these fiveoptions, so help me understand
which one's going to work foryou or whatever, the whatever,
whatever the situation is.
I like that a lot.
So I'm curious, though, becausethere is a segment of the
population and, unfortunately,guys that tune into this show
(23:53):
and come to the community, dealwith people that have some
significant mental, emotionalissues, maybe personality
disorders.
That's maybe five to 10 percentof the entire population out
there.
Right, how do you work throughsomething that?
And how do you get to 93%success rates If you're working
with folks that some might justhave a different reality,
(24:16):
because personality disorder isessentially somebody has a
different reality than yours,different reality of the world,
et cetera.
I'm not a clinical psychologistor anything.
That's just kind of generally,and you've, you've, you've done
enough of this to know they,they just don't have a, they
don't have a the reality ofwhat's going on.
They have a different, adifferent reality of what's
(24:38):
going on.
How do you, how do you workthrough some of that stuff and
what suggestions do you have forany of the guys that might be
dealing with somebody in thisthat really, really wants to try
to come to some settlement,some amicable way to get through
(24:59):
this process.
Because what I've found andthis is probably generally in
both sides right is the guysthat come to our community that
might be dealing with somebodylike this are genuinely dads
that want to figure somethingout that you know just got into
a marriage that's just untenableanymore and they're trying to
(25:19):
find and mediation would begreat because they know they're
going to save money, it's goingto be easier on the kids, all
the reasons that you describedbefore but it's just somebody
that they're stuck in, thisperson, stuck in their reality.
That is not the reality, right,yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
The good news is right a lot of people, I think,
they forget, really, whathappens to you is.
They forget that there's stepsin the process.
Right, there's gradations youcan take.
You don't have to pull the pinout of the grenade and go right
to court.
Right, and mediation is alwaysa great first step.
Right, you're going to mediate,you're going to try to mediate,
and as we were talking aboutbefore we jumped on here, is
(26:00):
that a lot of states these dayshave mandatory mediation anyway.
So what I remind people isyou're going to either see me
now or you're going to seesomebody like me later, and the
chances are the person you'regoing to see later is going to
be appointed by the court ormight not have the experience
that, say, someone like me inprivate mediation has.
So your always best bet is totry mediation first.
(26:22):
Now I will tell you that thereare people who come to us and I
want to be very honest with themand we have a first meeting, an
initial meeting, and I'll sayyou know what folks.
I don't think mediation is theright thing for you because of,
for example, what you said.
However, there is an alternativeto pulling the pin out of the
grenade and it's calledcollaborative divorce.
And so how that works is you'reall in the same room and in
(26:46):
this situation, it's you andyour attorney, your spouse and
their attorney, and then arelevant professional.
And, again, you know poking funat ourselves as guys.
You know, especially me, I'm anonly child.
I'm always that I can do itmyself, I don't need any help,
right, and we're always kind ofjust, you know being on the
brave face.
And well, in this case, youhave this room where there's the
(27:07):
protection of the attorney.
It's a neutral, you knowneutral setting, and then you
can bring in a mental healthprofessional or a child
psychologist or some otherqualified, you know what we
might call fifth party, who.
They're not a mediator, right,but they're there to provide
that kind of support and to beable to explain to the
individual, who perhaps mightnot be on the same plane as the
(27:29):
other person, what's going on,understanding how it's impacting
them, getting them tounderstand how compromise works
and what they need to do andwhat's in the best interest of
the kids.
So, even if you can't mediate,I'm a fan of then saying go to
collaborative divorce, get thosepeople in the room Because,
look, I can tell you, some of mybest friends are attorneys
(27:57):
right, and like you and I werejust talking about my
background's finance.
I am not a mental healthprofessional.
You don't want me as yourmental health professional.
I'm woefully unqualified, andmost of my attorney friends will
say the same thing.
So they say, look, let's getsomebody in the room, neutral,
both sides can pick so that theycan bridge that gap, and I find
that that helps a lot.
That's a key thing.
So if your listeners are in asituation where they're thinking
(28:18):
, I don't know if my spouse isable to have a good faith
negotiation or to understandfully what's happening, try
collaborative divorce.
This way, you each haveattorneys, you have other
professionals that can supportyou, and it avoids you from
having to wind up in a courtroomNot as cost-effective as
mediation, of course, but farmore cost-effective than
(28:40):
litigation, right?
So that's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So have you found that couples that may not be
successful in mediation do havesuccess in collaborative
divorces.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You know, I don't know for sure, only because
sometimes, like I said, we'relucky We've had I can count on
one hand the number of clientsthat have not been able to come
to agreement with us, so I can'tspeak definitively about what
happens.
But the clients that probablywe are unable to help should not
(29:11):
have been mediation clients inthe first place.
Right, they were not beingtruthful up front and hiding
something, some assets or someother situation, right?
But I do think they can be if I, as a professional, had to make
that regard.
Because what's nice aboutmediation is you can take what
you've done, and a lot of timesin my experience it's usually a
(29:33):
handful of issues, one or twoissues that are the sticking
point, so you don't need tostart again.
Take what you've done inmediation, bring it to a
collaborative process, say, look, we agree on these 95 things,
we need help with these five,and then at least you're not
starting from scratch, right,and that I think that's how you
would succeed.
(29:53):
Now if somebody goes intomediation and says this is
ridiculous, I don't agree to anyof this, I'm getting a lawyer
and I'm going to burn this thingto the ground, yeah, then I
don't know what's going tohappen.
But if you get the people whojust have that one or two
sticking point that they justcan't get past and for some
reason we can't get them past itthen that's what I would say
(30:14):
you go to collaborative, you usethat process to just finish the
rest of it and then you're onyour way, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Got it?
Yeah, I asked because it seemsto me and this is just anecdotal
and subjective that the couplesthat have not been successful
in mediation have less of anopportunity or are less prepared
(30:43):
to be mediation successful andcollaborative divorce, because
collaborative is trulycollaborative and if you're
mediating and you're doingmediation in the the spirit, the
correct, spirit.
That's the key mediation you are, you are collaborating right
and, and, and part ofcollaboration is having to uh
come to consensus.
(31:03):
You're having to to give andtake, you're having to uh to
resolve such like all kinds ofthings.
That is collaborative, and ifthey haven't been able to get it
done in mediation, I've foundthat typically they're not able
to get it done in acollaborative type situation,
(31:24):
and maybe it's just becausecollaborative divorce has not
become as prevalent as asregular divorce is yet.
Hopefully that's starting tochange and there's maybe more
people thinking about doing itor having some success through
it, because I truly think thatit's like you said.
It's the next step up from fromfrom mediation.
(31:45):
Right, if you need to bringother people in, you need to to
to have uh more the way, the waythat, the way that I describe
the differences and and andcorrect me if I'm wrong is if,
going back to that, if somebodyhave an unrealistic expectation
around things, you have somebodythat's there to help educate
(32:08):
them on the process, maybe, orthe realities of stuff that you
talked about bringing mentalhealth professionals in or
finance professionals in realestate professionals, whatever
that will help them to say look,this is what the lay of the
land is.
These are your options.
(32:28):
You might have one, two, three,four, five options, but
actually, realistically it'sgoing to be one or two.
The other ones are just you cango, you can argue it in court,
but probably 95 percent it'sgoing to get.
Three of those five are goingto get thrown out and you're not
going to have any choice.
Not going to have any choice,Right?
(32:51):
So it seems to be um, whereasmediation is not, as you're not
spending weeks, months in goingthrough that process.
You're spending hours, and it'smore inclined to people that
are are going to actually justget something done.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, Right, you know , and you brought up a great
point before is that you have.
It's a mindset, right?
Um, you know, there's a,there's a quote, and I think
it's Henry Ford.
It's like if you think you canor you think you can't, you're
right.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I love that Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And it's like, because, if you come to
mediation going, this isn'tgoing to work, well, guess what,
it's not going to work, right.
But at the end of the day, ifyou say and you know this from
experience I know this fromexperience as as a child is that
when you enter the legal system, all bets are off and you just
are, now you're rolling thosedice, you're not even rolling
(33:36):
them, a stranger is rolling themfor you, right, and you're like
instead, in mediation, youcontrol the outcome.
Now, granted, could you havegotten more?
Could you have paid less if Ilitigated?
Yeah, maybe you could, right,have gotten more.
Could you have paid less if Ilitigated?
Yeah, maybe you could, right.
But what's worth it?
Is it worth the $50,000,$75,000, $100,000 you spent on a
litigated divorce?
(33:56):
Is it worth the years of yourlife that you could have been
playing catch with your son orgoing to dance recitals?
Right, it's like you're goingto be in courtrooms Sometimes.
You just have to let it go andyou have to just say, well,
that's terrible, that's not whatI wanted, but you know what?
It was worth it for myemotional wellbeing, right?
Because guess what?
We've talked a lot aboutfinances and all of those things
(34:19):
.
But the biggest price someonepays is an emotional one.
Right, your money comes andgoes right.
We all lose jobs.
We get jobs, we make badinvestments, we spend too much
on a bar tab or whatever.
It is right, but at the end ofthe day, the only thing you got
left is your emotional peace ofmind.
Right, and that's priceless.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, yeah, to the dads listening as far as what to
look for in a mediator Likewhat kind of questions to ask a
mediator Because, uh, you find alot of the guys will say, hey,
yeah, we're going to, we'regoing to try mediation first.
We're going to find themprivate mediator first, not a,
(35:05):
not a court appointed mediator,which I agree with you.
I think that there's a distinctdifference in their abilities
to get that done and to getsomething done between a
court-appointed mediator and aprivate mediator.
You guys have to have success.
Well, you don't have to havesuccess.
Yeah, you kind of do right, butyour success breeds more
(35:27):
business, which you know youwant to continue to feed your
family.
Then you want to be successful.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Right, so that's right.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Which you know, and you've got my mind going just a
ton.
Because, like I, said I've beenthrough it six or seven times
have never had success, hadsuccess.
I think I feel like part ofthat might be just generally,
the mediator population that wehave here because it is court
ordered, and how good or badthey actually are here, and so
(36:03):
I'm in Colorado, but also Iwould contend that this probably
is true in some other states orareas where they require that
they might not have the level ofskill that someone like you or
mediators in other areas have,which is going to lead to
(36:24):
failure and when that failurehappens, okay.
So I was going to ask youanother question.
I'm going to, I'm going toshift a little bit here.
So when that?
When that failure happens, itit?
The challenge I have with withdoing the mediation without
being prepared, like youdescribed, is that it it starts
(36:46):
everything off poorly, of course.
So if you get into a badmediation and somebody's not
realizing whatever reason itfails, it seems to set things
back as opposed to starting offon the wrong foot.
So actually I can dovetail thisinto the question I was going to
ask.
(37:06):
So what can the dads look forin a mediator?
What kind of questions can theyask the mediator before getting
into the process and decidingon starting out with the
mediation process?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Perfect, I'll give you some great questions to ask.
So the first thing I would askis explain to me your mediation
process, right?
We've been talking about this alot, and having a process is
key.
Imagine if you know, I'm a bigbaseball fan, right?
Imagine if you just put nineguys out on a field and said
(37:42):
play a game.
What's the first thing theywould ask?
Well, what are the rules?
Where do I go?
Where do I stand?
Who does what?
Right?
You want to know.
You need a framework by whichto operate with it.
Right?
That's actually what theColorado Rockies do here?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I just went to the game last night.
That's why they've only won 12games this year.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, I'm sorry about that and I'm a big Cubs fan, so
sorry about the whole ChrisBryant thing, so you can blame
me for that.
But I would ask you what's yourprocess look like?
Do you even have one?
Because, as we've talked about,if you don't have a process,
things can spiral pretty quickly.
So that's question number one.
Number two what's your caseresolution rate?
(38:20):
You got to be hitting at least70%.
That's industry average.
That's a C.
If you're getting into 80,you're getting into 90, that's
solid, right, that's good.
So what's your case resolutionrate?
What's your training look like?
That's the third question.
So what I would say to yourlisteners and this is terrifying
for a professional like myselfis if, jude, you decided one day
(38:43):
you know what I talked to thatJoe Dillon guy he seemed pretty
cool I'm going to take this 40hour mediation class at the
holiday inn this weekend and I'mgoing to get myself a business
card.
That is literally all you needto do to become a mediator in
most states, right?
So 40?
hour course, like wow, right,that's just terrifying.
And so what kind of training,continuing education, do they
(39:06):
continue to do to stay on top oftrends?
Because, as you know, the lawschange every year, right?
So what's their training?
What's that?
You know, what does that looklike for them?
Did they just take the 40 hourcourse or do they, you know,
continue to to take additionaltraining?
Right, and then I'd also talk tothem about their fee structure,
because here's another thingthat we do, so we're pretty
(39:27):
unique in the sense.
Another thing that we do.
So we're pretty unique in thesense we offer a flat fee and
people can have as many sessionsas they like within this
timeframe.
Right, we call it thismediation roadmap.
So, in effect, what we're doingis we're putting our
professional reputation on theline and saying this sounds like
a game show, almost in a weirdway.
(39:48):
Right, I can get your divorcenegotiated within this period of
time for this price, and if itgoes, you know, then it's on me
if I screw up, right?
And so when you're billinghourly, there's no incentive for
that professional to resolveyour issues.
I mean, that's the model.
That's okay, I get it, thatused to be the model, but that's
broken.
You know, I don't's broken, I'mnot an ATM, right and so I want
(40:15):
to know how long is it going totake, how much is it going to
cost, what am I going to get?
And so we tell people thatright up front.
And if somebody can't tell youthat, if they're not confident,
that says look, and this iswhere we get to say we say
between 10 and 14 weeks youcould finish your whole divorce
mediation.
Now not the court process,right, because you're at the
mercy of the courts and filingit and all.
But you can get your wholesubstantive agreement negotiated
(40:37):
within this time period, I cangive you a 98% chance that
that's going to happen.
If I said to you hey, jude, youplay the lottery, I got a 98%
shot of winning Would you play?
Of course you would.
I'm saying to you, I'm evenputting it on me, saying that if
you need two sessions four, six, eight we're making progress.
(40:58):
You're still paying the sameprice.
That's on me.
I'm willing to do that.
I think if that combination ofyour training, your process,
your fee structure, yourprofessional societies that you
belong to, your engagement, youknow, all of those things kind
of come into play, you know andyou know, I can tell you from
(41:20):
experience a lot of times,people.
One thing I would not concernmyself with are online reviews,
because in a divorce.
First of all, who's going outpublicly and saying that was
awesome?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
right, that's the best divorce ever.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I love that guy, joe Nolan, he's great.
You know they're not doing that, and the ones that are are mad.
They're angry about something.
We have like three reviewssomewhere in Google, I think
right.
But we, you know, we do askpeople to fill out an anonymous
survey after they're done withus and we pull quotes from it,
and so someone else should alsobe able to say look, I can't
give you referrals or references, right?
(41:57):
Hey Jude, I got your phonenumber from my mediator.
Can I talk to you about yourdivorce?
You'd be like what.
They should be able to at leastsay look, here's a smattering of
feedback we've gotten and hereare the things that people
mentioned and you'll noticepatterns, right.
So I think that's really what Iwould say those questions, and
to avoid online reviews, becausereally they're just really not
(42:20):
accurate these days when itcomes to this topic.
So I hope that helps.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Okay, what about people that are in states or
areas where there is court ordermediation?
Would a question like whatpercentage of your business is
court appointed, what percentageof your business is attorney
referred and what percentage ofyour business is private, uh,
(42:49):
would that be a good question toask too, because I gotta tell
you like I, I, you know thephrase, you don't know what you
don't know, I, I, I feel likethat and talking to you now in
just this 45 minutes that thatwe spent together, that you've
you've raised a whole bunch ofnew questions, but of things
(43:11):
that could help everybody ingeneral if they knew this.
But the guys that are listeningto have some more success up
front with a mediator, right,because what you've described
has not ever been an experiencethat I've had in the six or
seven times that I've been.
(43:31):
I've literally had mediatorsafter the, after the, you know
the one the shuttle back andforth after one room and a half
hour say we're probably notgoing to get anything done and
then you know you paid your.
You paid your minimum, and, and,and, frankly, I was just happy
that you know.
I paid my minimum two hours andI wasn't going to pay another
six hours, and even if they onlyworked a half hour, I was happy
(43:54):
that I caught my losses.
So, but that's the experiencethat I've had and, until and
unless I've had an experiencethat was better than that, which
is what you've been describedto me, I didn't know, I don't
know any better.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I think a lot of us don't know any better.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
I think a lot of us don't know any better and I
think I really feel, whilemediation is a is a great idea,
it's just like having a badplumber right If they could just
make things worse.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
And they show up and they're crappy right.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
So if you, if you're trying to have good intentions
and getting into media and thenyou have a terrible experience,
it just sets things back, like Isaid.
So I think another question inaddition to what is your process
?
I think that's a great questionwhat's your case resolution
(44:45):
rate?
I would love I'm going to startasking that all this time now,
uh, uh, because I don't knowthat any of them keep that.
I have not seen that.
I would think that everymediator would want to have that
as a benchmark, like in all oftheir advertising yeah 90, 98,
like if, unless they're notsuccessful well yeah, unless
(45:06):
they're doing the shuttle backand forth and I'm done in a half
hour it's just not going towork out today scenario right
One of those lines to make acomment about that is.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
You know, you may see it on my website.
So my wife, cheryl, she's adivorce coach and she's my
partner in this right, so shehelps some of our clients as
well.
She helps some of our clientsas well.
And if your case resolutionrate isn't high, you're in the
wrong line of work.
Because the bottom line is I'ma divorce mediator on my
(45:38):
business card, right, but thetruth of the matter is I'm a
problem solver, right.
And if I'm not willing to get inthe arena and say, guys, we got
to figure this out, right, like, and really care about it,
right, you really need to careabout this, like you.
You were saying to me right atthe beginning of the show, like,
why do you keep doing this?
It's because I actually give a.
(45:59):
You know about it.
Right, it's like because I'veseen the other side of the coin.
I can't tell you what to do,but, man, you just don't want
what happened to me.
You just don't want thealternative.
Trust me on this, just hangwith me.
It's going to be hard, but wecan do this right.
And I've come after a day andshe's like how are you doing?
I'm like I just got to sitquietly downstairs and pet the
(46:20):
dog.
It takes a lot out of you butyou have to care, and I think
that's a lot too, you know.
Another question I would I wouldhave your folks ask is is this
your full-time profession?
That's another good question.
Do you mediate full-time?
Because, um, I don't know, Idon't know if I mentioned this.
So when I was in, I was livingin Chicago and I was uh kind of
(46:41):
teaching at Northwesternuniversity.
I was like an assistant to thepeople who were teaching the
mediation classes, and a lot ofthe people who came in there
were mental health professionals, marriage counselors and they
thought well, you know, I'malready seeing couples in
trouble, so I'll become adivorce mediator as well.
It's like you just said.
Imagine if the plumber showedup at your house and gave you a
business card and said hey, bythe way, in addition to plumbing
(47:04):
, I also repair carburetors andI also paint bedrooms and I also
do needlepoint, you know, andyou'd be like, are you really
qualified as a plumber?
Right?
So you probably want to findout.
Does this person practice somekind of conflict resolution full
time?
Because this is a skill, right?
Mediation is a skill and itneeds to be honed and sharpened
(47:28):
and continued, and so that'sanother good question.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a great question.
Only challenge is that if theyget all their business like,
they're not in the wrongbusiness, if they're getting
automatic business right, ifthey're getting automatic
business from the court, they'rejust and they're mailing it in.
That's where you got to askwell, what percentage of your
(47:51):
business, how much business I?
And I'd be curious because somuch as you, as you know,
because you you deal withdifferent parts of the country,
so so much of the family lawcourt is a cottage industry
where the attorneys know themediators know the mental health
professionals know the finance,and then they're just all
(48:12):
working together.
They know the judges becausethey went to law school with
them and they practiced for awhile and then they got on the
bench and then they're not goingto piss them off and they're
not going to really argue fortheir client, because they don't
want to piss the judge off,because they're going to have to
see them again.
They're not going to piss offopposing counsel either because
they're going to have to seethem again and talk to them.
(48:34):
So this is a whole cottageindustry thing.
So which again, when I'mcoaching guys right, and I
firmly believe that every personnow I didn't when I started
this I was like, yeah, coachingwould be good for you.
I think that every person goingthrough divorce should have it
I absolutely agree 100% now allthe time.
(48:55):
Yeah, yeah yeah, but you knowthat they should, so that they
can know and that they canunderstand this whole process
and what goes on in thatquestion of what percentage of
the business do you have to goout and you actually have to get
yourself, I think, in,especially in the States where
(49:16):
it's court ordered is afantastic and full-time.
Do you do this full-time?
Do you feed your family?
doing this and if you'recommitted to it, if you are
right and if you do whatpercentage of that is private,
that you work with couplesoutside of the court, what
percentage of that is attorneysthat you know, that you've
(49:38):
networked with, and whatpercentage is court ordered.
And then the last question iswhat is your resolution rate
based on all that?
Because then you can, you know,I mean this is a higher
equation thing but you can seethere.
There, if 70, if 90% of their oftheir cases are court ordered
and they have a 25% success rate, then you got it right there.
(50:01):
It's the, it's the, it's theColorado Rockies and the Chicago
Cubs.
For so many years, people keptshowing up to the games, even if
they weren't successful, justbecause they kept showing up.
That was the Cubs, and forever.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
That's the Colorado.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Rockies now, because everybody shows up and they
don't care if they win or not.
So it's that same philosophy.
They keep getting businessbecause it's just given to them.
They have no incentive toreally be successful.
So I think those are greatquestions that you ask and that
(50:36):
leads me into justre-emphasizing because I do with
the guys all the time is thatyou're in charge of this process
.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Get educated, ask the questions Don's a great point.
Get educated, ask the questions, don't bury your head.
If you weren't the leader inyour family and you weren't
leading, it might be one of thereasons why you're in this
position you're at.
It's the time now for you tostart doing that.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Ask your mediator If you don't get the answers find
another mediator and ask thequestions.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
If you don't get the answers or you don't like the
answers, find another one, butmake sure to start taking the
reins in this process.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah, and if I can, just I'll share this with you.
I'll answer a question youdidn't ask, but you kind of did.
The percentage of clients weget from the courts or referral
is zero.
100% of our business is clientreferral or direct and we, for
that very reason it's exactlywhat you said.
It said because we work hard,we're selective, right, we
(51:45):
interview our clients too,because we want to make sure
that they're as committed tothis process as we are, because
we're putting it in day in andday out and along the lines of
what you were saying, and partof how we do that is, if you go
on our website, you probablyhave that in your show notes
here, whatever it is, we have aresource center and since 2007,
(52:09):
I can't believe I'm saying thatout loud I have been blogging
and I've been writing theseguides, everything from divorce
after 20 years to amicabledivorce, to how does alimony
work and all these things, andthat's how people find us.
Because we feel very stronglythat you need to get educated on
this process, because I'll justyou know, I know everybody's
(52:30):
listening, so it's not really asecret, but an educated client
is a great client for us.
They come in with realisticexpectations.
They come in with a sense ofhow things work, right, they
don't have to have all theanswers, but they have enough
information to know sort of whatthey don't know.
Right, and they can ask theintelligent questions.
So our philosophy has alwaysbeen to invest in people and
(52:51):
educate them.
And if they work with us, great,and if they don't, that's great
, because we get visitors fromall over the world and we're
only practicing in six states.
But let them get that knowledgeso that, like you said, they
can go away, they can feelempowered, they can feel
educated, and then the fear alsosubsides, right?
It's like I remember being akid.
I had to get my wisdom teethout.
(53:12):
I have no cavities in my face.
I don't know how that happened.
I have no cavities, neverreally had a problem to a
dentist and the first real maininteraction I had with a dentist
was to get my wisdom teeth out.
I was freaking out right,because I'm like, oh my God, and
(53:36):
then, like two hours later, I'meating SpaghettiOs.
I'm like, oh my god, and then,like two hours later, I'm eating
spaghettios.
I'm like, well, I freakedmyself out over this, right I?
If I had known, right, you know.
So same thing get educated,reduce the fear, reduce that
reactivity, work with a coachlike yourself, and then, and,
and, and, get through theprocess comp.
That's really key, key, key.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah, yeah, perfect, so we could probably talk for
another hour but we're even,we're like coming up on an hour.
So where was, where's thewebsite where they, where the
listeners, can find that, thatblog and that?
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, sure, you just go to equitablemediationcom and
then you'll just see.
Right there there's a resourcecenter that has blogs.
It has video courses.
You know we have a free courseon mediation.
We have free books, blog posts.
You know all this kind of stuff.
There's even some courses thatyou can purchase.
(54:24):
We have I put together a wholenegotiation course on how to
negotiate a divorce right, notfill out the court forms and all
of that stuff.
On how to negotiate a divorceright, not fill out the court
forms and all of that stuff, buthow to actually get into the
room and negotiate with yoursoon-to-be ex, right.
What are all the things that I,as a mediator, do, whether
clients know it or not.
You also can learn to do that.
It's not hard.
(54:44):
You just have know certaintricks of the trade in your back
pocket if you will.
But a lot of that stuff is outthere.
You know a lot of it's free.
Just feel free to go there.
You know, use the resourcesthat are out there, right, get
educated on it.
And you know, just tell yourlisteners absolutely Like, don't
be afraid.
We have people who sometimescome to the first meeting and
(55:06):
they've printed out our blogposts.
I was like that's such a highcompliment, right?
It's like somebody took thetime to print out something you
wrote and keep it.
I was like, well, in this dayand age, right, that's so
digital and scrolly and all thatYou're like oh cool, Thanks
yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
And then at the website, can they reach you and
get a hold of you through thewebsite?
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Yeah, they can.
So you'll see there's a buttonthat says talk to us.
And we practice in WashingtonState, California, Illinois, New
York, Pennsylvania and NewJersey.
Those are the six states wepractice in.
So if you practice, in one ofour live in one of our six
states.
There's a little button up topthat says talk to us.
You click that.
You schedule a free call withmy partner, cheryl.
(55:50):
She'll tell you.
You know about how the processworks.
You know things like that.
See, if you're a good fit, youknow if mediation is a
possibility, then after that youcan schedule an initial meeting
with me and your spouse.
Like, so, that's the three ofus.
And so, yeah, so we have anopportunity for you to reach out
.
Schedule a call with Cheryl, noobligation.
We just want to say, hey, doesmediation work for you?
(56:10):
Can we work with you?
Are you a good fit?
Are we a good fit?
Give you a little education, alittle background, and again,
it's really just about gettingknowledge.
Because I'll leave you withthis.
When I think back to all theclients I've had, I can probably
count on two hands, maybe I'llsay so like one fraction of 1%
(56:31):
of the clients who have come tous, who have been previously
divorced.
Most of the people we work with, literally the 99.9% of the
clients we work with this is thefirst time they're going
through this and, like you said,I thought that was perfect.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
Through this and like you said,I thought that was perfect.
You don't know what you don'tknow, so know it, learn it.
(56:56):
It's out there.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
You can learn it right.
So get educated.
Big makes all the difference.
Yeah, Awesome.
Last question when are youcoming to Colorado?
And the other 44 states Becausewe definitely need a better
type of mediation like youprovide I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
You know, give it some thought.
Right, because we like to gointo a state where we understand
how it works, we're comfortablemediating, we build a
professional network before weeven think of mediating
somewhere.
Right, we want mortgageprofessionals and review
attorneys and filingprofessionals and folks in our
back pocket.
But we'll certainly keepColorado in mind.
(57:31):
And, yeah, I'm really sorry youhad that experience, man, I'll
tell you, jude, that just breaksmy heart.
But unfortunately it's a storythat I hear a lot, because we
get quite a few clients who havecome to us from other mediators
and they're like what are wedoing here?
And I'm like, well, this is howit works.
Well, I should say, this is howit should work, right, and so
(57:52):
there is a right and a wrong wayto do this.
I truly believe that.
And that lends us to that caseresolution right, Because if you
have that process, you have itall out on the table.
It's really hard to argue withthe facts, you know so.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, yeah, no that.
So yeah, yeah, no.
That's awesome and and uh, andit's a good thing, because then
it gives me the opportunity nowto share the right way uh with
with everybody and to be able topoint out the difference in the
future, going forward with uhwith the, with the dads that I
come in contact with, that thereis a better way uh to to do
this.
This is, this is who you cantalk to, and these are the
questions I learned so muchtoday.
(58:33):
It was phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I truly, truly appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
I've been in the family law system for 13 years
and this is enlightening andeye-opening for me today, and I
hope it was for everybody elsethat listened.
Joe, I really appreciate whatyou're doing, thank you.
Really appreciate theprofessionalism and the wisdom
and the conscientiousness thatyou bring to doing what you do.
(59:00):
It's obvious in talking to youand hearing you speak, hearing
you speak.
So having professionals likeyou in the system gives me hope
and helps me to tell guys yeah,mediation is a good thing.
Find somebody like Joe andequitable and it can be a good
thing.
That's great Well thanks.
(59:20):
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
I sincerely appreciate it my pleasure, thank
you.
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for listening.
Today We've got an importanttopic that I realized that I
have neglected to do any kind ofepisode or really education or
sharing on in the five yearsthat we've been recording this
podcast, and so my guest todayreached out to me and it clicked
(00:25):
in my head and it was a naturalto get together and chat with
him.
But before I introduce him, Iwant to remind you to go to
thedivorcedadvocatecom and checkout all the resources that we
have there so that you can getthe help that you deserve and
need.
We've got everything from freeto paid resources.
Wherever you're at in yourdivorce whether you're just
(00:47):
contemplating or post-divorcewe've got something that can
help you out there.
So check it out atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
My guest today is a trailblazerin divorce mediation.
He's helping couples end theirmarriages with dignity and
financial clarity for over 17years as co-founder of Equitable
(01:11):
Mediation Services.
He brings an MBA in finance andadvanced training from Harvard,
mit and Northwestern to guidecouples toward fair, lasting
agreements that protect bothemotional well-being and
financial stability agreementsthat protect both emotional
well-being and financialstability.
He launched virtual divorcemediation in 2011, nearly a
(01:32):
decade before it became the normduring the pandemic.
The results speak forthemselves.
Equitable Mediation Serviceshas a 98% case resolution rate,
which is remarkable, and is farabove the industry average of
70%.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Please help me in welcoming Joe Dillon, thanks for
having me, jude, very excitedto be here.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Joe, thanks for reaching out.
Like I mentioned, I have beenremiss in not really diving into
this.
I think we've talked aboutpositives of mediation and
finding an attorney andeverything else mediation and
finding an attorney and likeeverything else but we haven't
really dove into mediation andthe positives and the negatives
and how you get a 98% caseresolution.
(02:12):
I think I was telling you rightbefore we started recording
I've been in mediation six orseven times and I'm old for six
or seven, so I'm really curiousto know how you got to that too.
But before we jump into some ofthat, just share a little bit
about, for 17 years now, why youkeep showing up to arguing
(02:33):
couples every single day andhelping them to figure out what
they've got going on.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So a little bit about me.
My parents litigated theirdivorce, so a therapist would
probably have a field day withme.
My parents litigated theirdivorce, so you know, a
therapist would probably have afield day with me because
they're like well, dude, this istotally why you do this.
But you know they litigatedthis back in the 80s and you
(02:59):
know this was before reallymediation was a thing, and so we
started.
I started thinking about it.
Right, it's like they foughtfor years, they spent so much
money and then, literally thelast time I saw my father, I was
15 years old.
I was sitting in the back of acourtroom in the hallway.
My parents were like stillyelling at each other in the
hallway.
My dad walked out of thecourtroom and that was literally
the last time I saw him orspoke to him again.
(03:21):
And then, about five years ago,I got a letter saying he had
died and so that was it.
And when you look at that, whenyou think about that as dads,
dads are important role modelsand they're important players in
kids' lives, and to not have adad in my life my mom, of course
(03:41):
, did a great job, did the bestshe could, but there's roles
that dads play that are reallycritically important and I just
wish that they to not have a dadin my life.
My mom, of course, did a greatjob, did the best she could, but
there's roles that dads playthat are really critically
important and I just wish thatthey could have put the lawyers
aside, talk to each other aspeople, like directly, because I
was sitting right there, by theway, and said you know what do
we have to do?
That's in the best interest ofthis kid here, because I'm an
(04:02):
only child.
So every time when I get, asyou said, I get into the room
and I get into the space.
I think to myself I want tohelp couples avoid what happened
to me, right, I want them.
I say look, you are not goingto be husband and wife anymore,
but you're always going to bemom and dad, and that is a role
that will not change.
So I think that's what keeps meshowing up every single day
(04:23):
knowing that there are familiesout there who are still at the
birthday parties together, stillsitting at each other at the
graduations, can be at thewedding together.
I didn't have any of that, soyou know, I feel like I really
missed out, and so that's reallythe deep answer.
I hope that's not too deep forthe audience.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Yeah, no, well, I think that adds some some
credibility is uh as as well tothat.
It's uh, it's obviously uh sadthat that that's what has
happened, but I think that manyof the dads that are listening
can relate to to some of that.
One of the things.
I have noticed in doing thiswork for so long now, that some
(05:02):
of this stuff is generationalright.
So my parents were divorced, myparents' parents were divorced
as well, and it seems to be athing that gets carried on,
unless there is a mindset, likeyou just mentioned, which is,
hey, we need to reframe this, aswe might not be together, but
(05:22):
we're going to be parents and weneed and we need to be looking,
uh, at this, uh, from adifferent perspective, which uh
if somebody is healthy and is ina healthy mindset, doesn't have
mental, emotional challengesgoing on or something else, then
uh, then mediation probably is,uh is something that's positive
(05:43):
.
So share with us then why thatmediation is positive and maybe
some misconceptions aroundmediation and going to mediation
.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah.
So I think the thing that forme with mediation is that think
about when you have a lawyer,right?
So two sides have a lawyer andthe lawyers are communicating,
and it's this sort of likefaceless interaction.
Right, you're not seeing thatyou're hurting the other person?
Supposedly, this was a personthat you at some point in your
(06:13):
life pledged your undying loveto, right?
So even at a bare minimum right, you'd want to treat this
person like a human.
And because of the adversarialnature of the legal system, the
lawyer is hired to win for theirclient, right, and they don't
care if they hurt on the otherside, as long as I win, I get
the best settlement, and that'shappening from both sides.
(06:35):
Mediation removes that and putsthe two people face to face, and
I think that's really what thekey is is that it's sort of like
I'll say this to you, right, weboth have websites, and if you
had, say, a commenting sectionthat was unmoderated on your
website, it's real easy forsomebody who doesn't have to
register to come in and makesome snarky comment, right, and
(06:57):
then just ascend and walk away.
But if I had to look at you andgive you my name, my address,
my phone number a photo ofmyself.
It would be a lot harder for meto do that right.
And mediation is the same way.
If I'm sitting across from you,it's a lot harder to yell, to
be mean, to call names and,quite frankly, to try to like I
(07:19):
don't want to say pull one overon the other person.
But you know, if you're staringat somebody and the other person
looks at you and goes, come on,really Really, you can't good
faith.
Like you said, you have to havethe mental acuity, of course,
but you can't good faith say, ohyeah, absolutely, that's true.
Oh yeah, I was like, yeah,you're right, I'm kind of being
a jerk.
So it takes a lot of the airout of the balloon, a lot of the
(07:42):
emotions, and by doing thatnegotiation direct you can clear
up a lot of misconceptions, getpeople to treat each other like
humans and I really think thattakes the temperature down and
it's really, to me, the key tothe whole process.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Right.
So do you require couples tosit in the same room while they
are mediating?
Couples to sit in the same roomwhile they are mediating, or
now you do it, now you're doingit virtually, right, uh, and I
guess the along that sameconcept.
Do they have to be face to facewith each other, or do you?
Because I've been in mediationboth ways, right, yeah, yeah, so
I'm always of the mind.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
So what you're referring to.
There's two kinds of mediation,right?
So the kind of mediation I do,everybody's in the room quote,
unquote.
Right Now, if you're on oneZoom and the other person's on a
different Zoom, sure, noproblem.
We're each in our own separatevideo feeds, but I'm always
working one on two.
There are some mediators whowork in a fashion that's known
as shuttle mediation, like themediator shuttles back and forth
(08:40):
between the rooms, right?
I find that kind of breedsmistrust, because one party is
sitting there now just waiting,right, and what are you thinking
?
What's that mediator saying tomy husband or my wife or you
know?
And so if you're all in theroom, like, think about when you
were a little kid, right, howrumors got started, and that you
know the game of telephone orwhatever it is Like, if you're
(09:00):
all together, you can clear upthat rumor real quick.
But if somebody goes into adifferent room, says something,
they come back.
Even as a practitioner, let'sjust be quite honest, right,
this is a hard enough jobwithout me having to remember
what one person said, told me,told me what I can't tell the
other person, right, and I'mjust like I'm not going to do
that right.
So you get everybody in thesame room.
(09:22):
It makes the conversation go alot better, clarifies any issues
and it really does like I saidit reduces that conflict.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Okay, so do you feel like that is one of the reasons
why you might have a much highersuccess rate?
Because I think probably themajority of times and this was
by request of my ex, probablythe majority of times and this
was by request of my ex we werein separate rooms, and even when
(09:52):
we did virtual mediation wewere in separate rooms so she
would never, ever have to lookat me, never have to be directly
communicating with me.
Do you feel like that is one ofthe reasons that you have such
a high success rate?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I think so.
I think having peopleone-on-two, even if they're, say
, for example, taking the Zoomcall from a separate room,
obviously there's power dynamicsin relationships, right?
So some people are comfortablesitting next to each other, some
people aren't and they want tobe able to speak up, and so if
that means you're in the bedroomand you're in the you know
guest room or whatever it is onZoom, fine.
(10:27):
But I do think that leads tothat, because it does really,
like I said, it takes thetemperature down, clarifies a
lot of issues and also, let's behonest, right, you know,
without being coy about it, thisis not the most fun someone has
ever had.
Right, getting a divorce.
Do you really want this processto drag on for years and years?
(10:49):
No, you want to move throughthe process in a structured and
organized fashion, right, it'snot like you want to sound like
oh, this is a businesstransaction and we're going to
move you through, but you don'twant it to drag on, like my
parents, it was like three years.
It's like what are you doing?
You know who is benefiting fromthis Lawyers, right?
(11:09):
That's who's benefiting fromthis.
Are you getting on with yourlife?
No, am I getting on with mylife as your child, no, you know
.
So, again, that also expeditesthe conversation.
It gets people to move throughthe process faster, come to a
conclusion and like, say thisguy to guy here it's like I'm
half Irish, half Italian, so I'mvery stoic.
I was like don't worry about it, suppress your feelings.
(11:31):
That's how I was raised and alot of guys don't realize that
there's going to be thisemotional avalanche at the end
that they need to let happen andthey need to welcome it.
And the sooner they get there,the sooner they can have the
breakdown, rebuild and moveforward Right, and that's really
what my goal is to try to helpthem do that.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Right.
Well, so you?
So you bring up a good pointwhich are there are a lot of
emotions that come up in thisprocess Finances is probably one
of the biggest ones that peopleget obviously wrapped around
the axle, if you will, on.
How do you manage that whenyou're in the process, when
(12:16):
you're in that, and when thoseemotions start to get whether
they get heated or whether theyget sad or fearful, I think
probably, if you really want todo a psychoanalysis of it, which
we're not going to do today itcomes down to fear on both sides
Fear I'm not going to haveenough, fear I'm not going to be
able to provide it whatever itis.
(12:36):
But how do you manage that?
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah.
So, as you know, I have an MBAin finance, and so I bring this
kind of financial perspective toit, because you're absolutely
right.
Think about the topics in adivorce parenting, child support
, alimony, property division.
Three of the four are financialright and, by the way, in most
of the states we practice in,the parenting plan is an input
into the calculation childsupport.
(12:59):
So I'll call three and a halfright.
And so, going back to what wewere talking about before, about
looking someone in the eye andbeing able to say to them
something serious and have themtake you serious.
What I like to do is I have thisprocess that I've developed,
and so I first start people outby preparing these budgets, and
(13:19):
so these are budget workbooks ofmy own design.
We do a joint budget, and thatshows me what your marital
lifestyle looks like.
So what that does is it sayslook, guys, are you living at
your means, below your means orbeyond your means?
Because guess what, as soon asyou separate households, life's
going to get more expensive.
And if you were going intocredit card debt while you're
living together, there's noextra money hiding around for
(13:41):
extra alimony or child support,right?
So we level that playing fieldfirst.
Then we get the apart budgetsand we say look, here's your
lives comparatively post-divorce.
Is it fair that this person'ssleeping on his friend's couch
in the basement while thisperson is still staying in the
house?
Right, look at the numbers thisperson's spending I don't know
$7,000 a month.
(14:02):
This one's trying to spend$1,500.
Is that really fair?
Is that good for your kids?
Does your kids want to visitdad in the friend's basement?
You know like you know.
So you have that firstconversation, a level set to say
, look, this is what we've gotfinancially right.
There's no lies here.
Here it all is financiallyright.
There's no lies here.
(14:22):
Here it all is.
So that's the first thing thatwe do right, and so that
certainly helps.
Then, from there, the secondthing that happens is we do a
balance sheet and we put all theassets and liabilities out on
the table.
Because what I've found is alot of people like to talk about
stuff piecemeal and what theydo is they pick one thing, like
(14:43):
the house or the car, or the401k or whatever, and they just
go after it.
And I'm like, guys, this islike a big, you got to look at
the whole picture right.
And so when we get it all outon the table, it's like, well,
here's all the statements, right?
Because I asked him to give mecopies of the statement.
Here's a spreadsheet with allyour assets and liabilities
there is no money hiding in abank account.
Spreadsheet with all yourassets and liabilities there is
(15:04):
no money hiding in a bankaccount.
Here's all the credit reports.
Here's all the research we didon all your open accounts, right
?
And so what you see is I'mtrying to do is I'm removing the
emotions before we makedecisions.
So I like to say do thediscovery before the deciding.
And as guys I am Mr Guilty ofthis I am a solutions-oriented
(15:25):
guy.
I want to fix the problem rightaway.
I go right into solutions mode.
What you need to do is you needto go into research, step back,
lay it all out, then you canhave the conversation.
So that's how we approach itTake those emotions out so the
conversations can be moreproductive.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Right, well, so those are two things already that I
can tell that, at least in myexperience, has not happened is
being face to face, right,because that does humanize it
and does make it different.
And then what you're talkingabout, with that preparation up
front and having full financialpicture, knowing everything
(16:02):
that's going on.
I think you said pulling credit, pulling credit reports too, so
you can see what's what.
That's something that I'venever heard of, and I think
that's a brilliant idea, because, right, because then that, then
that's uh, that uh puts to restany mistrust or anything or any
ability to lie about uh,anything, uh period, if you've
got that and you're able totrade that and look at that and
(16:25):
know.
Hey, this is what it is.
There's no money here.
This is what we're dealing with.
It sounds like you do a lotmore upfront preparation with
the couples before schedulingand having them show up so that
there's more there's, there's,there's more to, to going on,
(16:48):
which I think is, I mean, that'sbrilliant.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, that, that can um do you do you so?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
how do you get so?
One of the things that that Irun into the most is when one
party just doesn't have arealistic expectation when
they're coming into mediation.
Of course it happens all thetime.
It doesn't really matter who itis, whether it's the man or the
(17:24):
woman, but one party seems tojust not have a realistic
expectation oftentimes.
How do you move past that thenwhen somebody shows up, even if
you have all of thedocumentation and the credit
reports and your spreadsheetdeveloped in your MBA program?
Speaker 2 (17:46):
and everything else, and then somebody right.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And and and.
But the one person that showedup thinking, because most of us
don't check the statutes, likeyou mentioned, the child support
is going to be tied to thenumber of uh, number of nights,
et cetera, that you have in aparenting plan.
So so one person has not donethe work, doesn't know the
statutes, doesn't understand.
(18:09):
Have this maybe misconceptionthat their life is going to be
the same post-divorce, if notbetter?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
post-divorce.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
But they're going to maintain exactly the same
lifestyle with two householdsnow, which makes no sense.
But again, we're not thinkinglogically oftentimes through
this process.
How do you mitigate that whenthere's one person?
That just is completelyunrealistic.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Yeah, great question, and that does happen frequently
.
So the way I handle it, there'stwo parts to that.
The first we've already talkedabout are those budgets, right.
So what we do is, when we dothe joint budget, let's just use
some silly round numbers.
Let's say, a couple livingtogether spends $5,000 a month
on their living expenses, right,their house and their car and
their groceries and whatever.
(18:56):
And then when we take theirapart budgets and we review them
and we add them together, oneperson is spending 4,000 and the
other one's spending $3,500,right.
And so I say, okay, folks,$5,000 together, $7,500 apart,
$2,500 is the cost of divorce.
Right, that's the phrase I use.
Okay, so that's what it's goingto cost you guys every month to
(19:19):
be divorced.
So, $2,500 times 12, whatever.
That math is right.
$30,000.
I did some math, right?
Yeah, yeah, okay, guys, let meask you guys a question Do you
have $30,000 lying around rightnow?
Do you put $30,000 a year awayin the bank?
And most people will be like no.
I said, okay, where's thatcoming from?
Right?
So we first established thatthere's going to be a challenge,
(19:40):
right.
Then the second thing we do andthis is a great thing for your
listeners to remember, this iskind of negotiation technique,
is you say, here's a greatquestion?
So this is what I wanteverybody to hear.
Help me understand, right, whenyou say you, you do this, you
don't get it, it's like, well,the person's taking that as an
(20:01):
attack and of course, they'regoing to only entrench in their
position.
Okay, you want $5,000 a monthin alimony?
Okay, help me understand how Ican pay that to you.
If I can do it, I'm reallywilling to listen.
And now the person, instead ofyou proving their point, they
have to prove their own point,and what I've noticed is a lot
(20:22):
of people really, what it doesis it paints them into a corner
to reality check themselves,right.
And then all of a sudden theygo well, yeah, you only bring
home $4,500 a month, I guess I'mnot getting 5,000 an hour money
.
And the other person goes right, you know.
And then there's like a momentright, you're always, as a
mediator, looking for thosemoments where somebody's like
has a little bit of empathy forthe other person, and so that's
(20:45):
how we do it.
And I say like, hey, listen,I'm all ears.
Right, I'm neutral, I don'thave a horse in this race, but
help me understand how that'spossible.
And then a lot of people, whenthey start talking it through
and trying to explain it andtrying to figure it out, they
usually can't.
And even if they say, I don'tcare, that's what I want.
(21:06):
Then the third option, which iswhat I prefer not to get to, is
you say, okay, let's do that,let's take a look at what it
would be like if I pay you$5,000 a month.
Here's my budget.
Right?
Take a look at my budget.
Do you agree?
My budget is correct.
Yeah, I spend $4,000 a month.
Yeah, I bring home 5,000 amonth.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, so how do I pay my?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
bills, right.
And then again you're you'retrying to get the other person
to say you know what?
That doesn't make sense.
Because if you tell them intheir head it makes sense.
But you do everything you canto just like we were talking
about that discovery, puteverything onto the table and
let them come to that conclusion.
Right, and because I believe inmy heart of hearts that most
(21:49):
people are rational actors,right, most people are
reasonable.
It's the circumstances thatwind you up.
Right, you know, somebody cutsyou off in traffic, I'm not a
maniac, but if somebody cuts meoff suddenly, I am right.
And same thing in thesesituations.
So in those examples, whatyou're always trying to do is
sure, I'm listening, I'm willing, as the recipient of that
(22:09):
request, I'm willing to give ita shot.
Help me understand how that'spossible.
Let's talk about it.
And then you stay quiet and youlet the other person try to
explain themselves.
That's how you do it Make sense.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah, no, that's terrific and I like that
(22:46):
no-transcript Because, like whatyou just described as guys,
naturally we want a problemsolved and we want to figure
this out.
And I've worked with enoughguys, and you probably have too.
Like we probably have come tothis mediation with a plan A, b.
C and D come to this mediationwith a plan a, b, c and d and
(23:10):
most of our minds of like whatwe can do, what we can't do,
what we'd like to do, what we'relike, all these different,
different scenarios that that wecan try to to work out.
And I tell you, I coach someguys that literally show up with
the spreadsheets of those three, four or five different
scenarios how you're going to gothrough it, which I have
respect for and I and I and Iand I do appreciate that, but
(23:30):
but that's a great, greatquestion.
So so I've got these fiveoptions, so help me understand
which one's going to work foryou or whatever, the whatever,
whatever the situation is.
I like that a lot.
So I'm curious, though, becausethere is a segment of the
population and, unfortunately,guys that tune into this show
(23:53):
and come to the community, dealwith people that have some
significant mental, emotionalissues, maybe personality
disorders.
That's maybe five to 10 percentof the entire population out
there.
Right, how do you work throughsomething that?
And how do you get to 93%success rates If you're working
with folks that some might justhave a different reality,
(24:16):
because personality disorder isessentially somebody has a
different reality than yours,different reality of the world,
et cetera.
I'm not a clinical psychologistor anything.
That's just kind of generally,and you've, you've, you've done
enough of this to know they,they just don't have a, they
don't have a the reality ofwhat's going on.
They have a different, adifferent reality of what's
(24:38):
going on.
How do you, how do you workthrough some of that stuff and
what suggestions do you have forany of the guys that might be
dealing with somebody in thisthat really, really wants to try
to come to some settlement,some amicable way to get through
(24:59):
this process.
Because what I've found andthis is probably generally in
both sides right is the guysthat come to our community that
might be dealing with somebodylike this are genuinely dads
that want to figure somethingout that you know just got into
a marriage that's just untenableanymore and they're trying to
(25:19):
find and mediation would begreat because they know they're
going to save money, it's goingto be easier on the kids, all
the reasons that you describedbefore but it's just somebody
that they're stuck in, thisperson, stuck in their reality.
That is not the reality, right,yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
The good news is right a lot of people, I think,
they forget, really, whathappens to you is.
They forget that there's stepsin the process.
Right, there's gradations youcan take.
You don't have to pull the pinout of the grenade and go right
to court.
Right, and mediation is alwaysa great first step.
Right, you're going to mediate,you're going to try to mediate,
and as we were talking aboutbefore we jumped on here, is
(26:00):
that a lot of states these dayshave mandatory mediation anyway.
So what I remind people isyou're going to either see me
now or you're going to seesomebody like me later, and the
chances are the person you'regoing to see later is going to
be appointed by the court ormight not have the experience
that, say, someone like me inprivate mediation has.
So your always best bet is totry mediation first.
(26:22):
Now I will tell you that thereare people who come to us and I
want to be very honest with themand we have a first meeting, an
initial meeting, and I'll sayyou know what folks.
I don't think mediation is theright thing for you because of,
for example, what you said.
However, there is an alternativeto pulling the pin out of the
grenade and it's calledcollaborative divorce.
And so how that works is you'reall in the same room and in
(26:46):
this situation, it's you andyour attorney, your spouse and
their attorney, and then arelevant professional.
And, again, you know poking funat ourselves as guys.
You know, especially me, I'm anonly child.
I'm always that I can do itmyself, I don't need any help,
right, and we're always kind ofjust, you know being on the
brave face.
And well, in this case, youhave this room where there's the
(27:07):
protection of the attorney.
It's a neutral, you knowneutral setting, and then you
can bring in a mental healthprofessional or a child
psychologist or some otherqualified, you know what we
might call fifth party, who.
They're not a mediator, right,but they're there to provide
that kind of support and to beable to explain to the
individual, who perhaps mightnot be on the same plane as the
(27:29):
other person, what's going on,understanding how it's impacting
them, getting them tounderstand how compromise works
and what they need to do andwhat's in the best interest of
the kids.
So, even if you can't mediate,I'm a fan of then saying go to
collaborative divorce, get thosepeople in the room Because,
look, I can tell you, some of mybest friends are attorneys
(27:57):
right, and like you and I werejust talking about my
background's finance.
I am not a mental healthprofessional.
You don't want me as yourmental health professional.
I'm woefully unqualified, andmost of my attorney friends will
say the same thing.
So they say, look, let's getsomebody in the room, neutral,
both sides can pick so that theycan bridge that gap, and I find
that that helps a lot.
That's a key thing.
So if your listeners are in asituation where they're thinking
(28:18):
, I don't know if my spouse isable to have a good faith
negotiation or to understandfully what's happening, try
collaborative divorce.
This way, you each haveattorneys, you have other
professionals that can supportyou, and it avoids you from
having to wind up in a courtroomNot as cost-effective as
mediation, of course, but farmore cost-effective than
(28:40):
litigation, right?
So that's what I would say.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
So have you found that couples that may not be
successful in mediation do havesuccess in collaborative
divorces.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You know, I don't know for sure, only because
sometimes, like I said, we'relucky We've had I can count on
one hand the number of clientsthat have not been able to come
to agreement with us, so I can'tspeak definitively about what
happens.
But the clients that probablywe are unable to help should not
(29:11):
have been mediation clients inthe first place.
Right, they were not beingtruthful up front and hiding
something, some assets or someother situation, right?
But I do think they can be if I, as a professional, had to make
that regard.
Because what's nice aboutmediation is you can take what
you've done, and a lot of timesin my experience it's usually a
(29:33):
handful of issues, one or twoissues that are the sticking
point, so you don't need tostart again.
Take what you've done inmediation, bring it to a
collaborative process, say, look, we agree on these 95 things,
we need help with these five,and then at least you're not
starting from scratch, right,and that I think that's how you
would succeed.
(29:53):
Now if somebody goes intomediation and says this is
ridiculous, I don't agree to anyof this, I'm getting a lawyer
and I'm going to burn this thingto the ground, yeah, then I
don't know what's going tohappen.
But if you get the people whojust have that one or two
sticking point that they justcan't get past and for some
reason we can't get them past itthen that's what I would say
(30:14):
you go to collaborative, you usethat process to just finish the
rest of it and then you're onyour way, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Got it?
Yeah, I asked because it seemsto me and this is just anecdotal
and subjective that the couplesthat have not been successful
in mediation have less of anopportunity or are less prepared
(30:43):
to be mediation successful andcollaborative divorce, because
collaborative is trulycollaborative and if you're
mediating and you're doingmediation in the the spirit, the
correct, spirit.
That's the key mediation you are, you are collaborating right
and, and, and part ofcollaboration is having to uh
come to consensus.
(31:03):
You're having to to give andtake, you're having to uh to
resolve such like all kinds ofthings.
That is collaborative, and ifthey haven't been able to get it
done in mediation, I've foundthat typically they're not able
to get it done in acollaborative type situation,
(31:24):
and maybe it's just becausecollaborative divorce has not
become as prevalent as asregular divorce is yet.
Hopefully that's starting tochange and there's maybe more
people thinking about doing itor having some success through
it, because I truly think thatit's like you said.
It's the next step up from fromfrom mediation.
(31:45):
Right, if you need to bringother people in, you need to to
to have uh more the way, the waythat, the way that I describe
the differences and and andcorrect me if I'm wrong is if,
going back to that, if somebodyhave an unrealistic expectation
around things, you have somebodythat's there to help educate
(32:08):
them on the process, maybe, orthe realities of stuff that you
talked about bringing mentalhealth professionals in or
finance professionals in realestate professionals, whatever
that will help them to say look,this is what the lay of the
land is.
These are your options.
(32:28):
You might have one, two, three,four, five options, but
actually, realistically it'sgoing to be one or two.
The other ones are just you cango, you can argue it in court,
but probably 95 percent it'sgoing to get.
Three of those five are goingto get thrown out and you're not
going to have any choice.
Not going to have any choice,Right?
(32:51):
So it seems to be um, whereasmediation is not, as you're not
spending weeks, months in goingthrough that process.
You're spending hours, and it'smore inclined to people that
are are going to actually justget something done.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, Right, you know , and you brought up a great
point before is that you have.
It's a mindset, right?
Um, you know, there's a,there's a quote, and I think
it's Henry Ford.
It's like if you think you canor you think you can't, you're
right.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I love that Right yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
And it's like, because, if you come to
mediation going, this isn'tgoing to work, well, guess what,
it's not going to work, right.
But at the end of the day, ifyou say and you know this from
experience I know this fromexperience as as a child is that
when you enter the legal system, all bets are off and you just
are, now you're rolling thosedice, you're not even rolling
(33:36):
them, a stranger is rolling themfor you, right, and you're like
instead, in mediation, youcontrol the outcome.
Now, granted, could you havegotten more?
Could you have paid less if Ilitigated?
Yeah, maybe you could, right,have gotten more.
Could you have paid less if Ilitigated?
Yeah, maybe you could, right.
But what's worth it?
Is it worth the $50,000,$75,000, $100,000 you spent on a
litigated divorce?
(33:56):
Is it worth the years of yourlife that you could have been
playing catch with your son orgoing to dance recitals?
Right, it's like you're goingto be in courtrooms Sometimes.
You just have to let it go andyou have to just say, well,
that's terrible, that's not whatI wanted, but you know what?
It was worth it for myemotional wellbeing, right?
Because guess what?
We've talked a lot aboutfinances and all of those things
(34:19):
.
But the biggest price someonepays is an emotional one.
Right, your money comes andgoes right.
We all lose jobs.
We get jobs, we make badinvestments, we spend too much
on a bar tab or whatever.
It is right, but at the end ofthe day, the only thing you got
left is your emotional peace ofmind.
Right, and that's priceless.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, yeah, to the dads listening as far as what to
look for in a mediator Likewhat kind of questions to ask a
mediator Because, uh, you find alot of the guys will say, hey,
yeah, we're going to, we'regoing to try mediation first.
We're going to find themprivate mediator first, not a,
(35:05):
not a court appointed mediator,which I agree with you.
I think that there's a distinctdifference in their abilities
to get that done and to getsomething done between a
court-appointed mediator and aprivate mediator.
You guys have to have success.
Well, you don't have to havesuccess.
Yeah, you kind of do right, butyour success breeds more
(35:27):
business, which you know youwant to continue to feed your
family.
Then you want to be successful.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Right, so that's right.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Which you know, and you've got my mind going just a
ton.
Because, like I, said I've beenthrough it six or seven times
have never had success, hadsuccess.
I think I feel like part ofthat might be just generally,
the mediator population that wehave here because it is court
ordered, and how good or badthey actually are here, and so
(36:03):
I'm in Colorado, but also Iwould contend that this probably
is true in some other states orareas where they require that
they might not have the level ofskill that someone like you or
mediators in other areas have,which is going to lead to
(36:24):
failure and when that failurehappens, okay.
So I was going to ask youanother question.
I'm going to, I'm going toshift a little bit here.
So when that?
When that failure happens, itit?
The challenge I have with withdoing the mediation without
being prepared, like youdescribed, is that it it starts
(36:46):
everything off poorly, of course.
So if you get into a badmediation and somebody's not
realizing whatever reason itfails, it seems to set things
back as opposed to starting offon the wrong foot.
So actually I can dovetail thisinto the question I was going to
ask.
(37:06):
So what can the dads look forin a mediator?
What kind of questions can theyask the mediator before getting
into the process and decidingon starting out with the
mediation process?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
Perfect, I'll give you some great questions to ask.
So the first thing I would askis explain to me your mediation
process, right?
We've been talking about this alot, and having a process is
key.
Imagine if you know, I'm a bigbaseball fan, right?
Imagine if you just put nineguys out on a field and said
(37:42):
play a game.
What's the first thing theywould ask?
Well, what are the rules?
Where do I go?
Where do I stand?
Who does what?
Right?
You want to know.
You need a framework by whichto operate with it.
Right?
That's actually what theColorado Rockies do here?
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I just went to the game last night.
That's why they've only won 12games this year.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Yeah, I'm sorry about that and I'm a big Cubs fan, so
sorry about the whole ChrisBryant thing, so you can blame
me for that.
But I would ask you what's yourprocess look like?
Do you even have one?
Because, as we've talked about,if you don't have a process,
things can spiral pretty quickly.
So that's question number one.
Number two what's your caseresolution rate?
(38:20):
You got to be hitting at least70%.
That's industry average.
That's a C.
If you're getting into 80,you're getting into 90, that's
solid, right, that's good.
So what's your case resolutionrate?
What's your training look like?
That's the third question.
So what I would say to yourlisteners and this is terrifying
for a professional like myselfis if, jude, you decided one day
(38:43):
you know what I talked to thatJoe Dillon guy he seemed pretty
cool I'm going to take this 40hour mediation class at the
holiday inn this weekend and I'mgoing to get myself a business
card.
That is literally all you needto do to become a mediator in
most states, right?
So 40?
hour course, like wow, right,that's just terrifying.
And so what kind of training,continuing education, do they
(39:06):
continue to do to stay on top oftrends?
Because, as you know, the lawschange every year, right?
So what's their training?
What's that?
You know, what does that looklike for them?
Did they just take the 40 hourcourse or do they, you know,
continue to to take additionaltraining?
Right, and then I'd also talk tothem about their fee structure,
because here's another thingthat we do, so we're pretty
(39:27):
unique in the sense.
Another thing that we do.
So we're pretty unique in thesense we offer a flat fee and
people can have as many sessionsas they like within this
timeframe.
Right, we call it thismediation roadmap.
So, in effect, what we're doingis we're putting our
professional reputation on theline and saying this sounds like
a game show, almost in a weirdway.
(39:48):
Right, I can get your divorcenegotiated within this period of
time for this price, and if itgoes, you know, then it's on me
if I screw up, right?
And so when you're billinghourly, there's no incentive for
that professional to resolveyour issues.
I mean, that's the model.
That's okay, I get it, thatused to be the model, but that's
broken.
You know, I don't's broken, I'mnot an ATM, right and so I want
(40:15):
to know how long is it going totake, how much is it going to
cost, what am I going to get?
And so we tell people thatright up front.
And if somebody can't tell youthat, if they're not confident,
that says look, and this iswhere we get to say we say
between 10 and 14 weeks youcould finish your whole divorce
mediation.
Now not the court process,right, because you're at the
mercy of the courts and filingit and all.
But you can get your wholesubstantive agreement negotiated
(40:37):
within this time period, I cangive you a 98% chance that
that's going to happen.
If I said to you hey, jude, youplay the lottery, I got a 98%
shot of winning Would you play?
Of course you would.
I'm saying to you, I'm evenputting it on me, saying that if
you need two sessions four, six, eight we're making progress.
(40:58):
You're still paying the sameprice.
That's on me.
I'm willing to do that.
I think if that combination ofyour training, your process,
your fee structure, yourprofessional societies that you
belong to, your engagement, youknow, all of those things kind
of come into play, you know andyou know, I can tell you from
(41:20):
experience a lot of times,people.
One thing I would not concernmyself with are online reviews,
because in a divorce.
First of all, who's going outpublicly and saying that was
awesome?
Speaker 1 (41:34):
right, that's the best divorce ever.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I love that guy, joe Nolan, he's great.
You know they're not doing that, and the ones that are are mad.
They're angry about something.
We have like three reviewssomewhere in Google, I think
right.
But we, you know, we do askpeople to fill out an anonymous
survey after they're done withus and we pull quotes from it,
and so someone else should alsobe able to say look, I can't
give you referrals or references, right?
(41:57):
Hey Jude, I got your phonenumber from my mediator.
Can I talk to you about yourdivorce?
You'd be like what.
They should be able to at leastsay look, here's a smattering of
feedback we've gotten and hereare the things that people
mentioned and you'll noticepatterns, right.
So I think that's really what Iwould say those questions, and
to avoid online reviews, becausereally they're just really not
(42:20):
accurate these days when itcomes to this topic.
So I hope that helps.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Okay, what about people that are in states or
areas where there is court ordermediation?
Would a question like whatpercentage of your business is
court appointed, what percentageof your business is attorney
referred and what percentage ofyour business is private, uh,
(42:49):
would that be a good question toask too, because I gotta tell
you like I, I, you know thephrase, you don't know what you
don't know, I, I, I feel likethat and talking to you now in
just this 45 minutes that thatwe spent together, that you've
you've raised a whole bunch ofnew questions, but of things
(43:11):
that could help everybody ingeneral if they knew this.
But the guys that are listeningto have some more success up
front with a mediator, right,because what you've described
has not ever been an experiencethat I've had in the six or
seven times that I've been.
(43:31):
I've literally had mediatorsafter the, after the, you know
the one the shuttle back andforth after one room and a half
hour say we're probably notgoing to get anything done and
then you know you paid your.
You paid your minimum, and, and,and, frankly, I was just happy
that you know.
I paid my minimum two hours andI wasn't going to pay another
six hours, and even if they onlyworked a half hour, I was happy
(43:54):
that I caught my losses.
So, but that's the experiencethat I've had and, until and
unless I've had an experiencethat was better than that, which
is what you've been describedto me, I didn't know, I don't
know any better.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
I think a lot of us don't know any better.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
I think a lot of us don't know any better and I
think I really feel, whilemediation is a is a great idea,
it's just like having a badplumber right If they could just
make things worse.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
And they show up and they're crappy right.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
So if you, if you're trying to have good intentions
and getting into media and thenyou have a terrible experience,
it just sets things back, like Isaid.
So I think another question inaddition to what is your process
?
I think that's a great questionwhat's your case resolution
(44:45):
rate?
I would love I'm going to startasking that all this time now,
uh, uh, because I don't knowthat any of them keep that.
I have not seen that.
I would think that everymediator would want to have that
as a benchmark, like in all oftheir advertising yeah 90, 98,
like if, unless they're notsuccessful well yeah, unless
(45:06):
they're doing the shuttle backand forth and I'm done in a half
hour it's just not going towork out today scenario right
One of those lines to make acomment about that is.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
You know, you may see it on my website.
So my wife, cheryl, she's adivorce coach and she's my
partner in this right, so shehelps some of our clients as
well.
She helps some of our clientsas well.
And if your case resolutionrate isn't high, you're in the
wrong line of work.
Because the bottom line is I'ma divorce mediator on my
(45:38):
business card, right, but thetruth of the matter is I'm a
problem solver, right.
And if I'm not willing to get inthe arena and say, guys, we got
to figure this out, right, like, and really care about it,
right, you really need to careabout this, like you.
You were saying to me right atthe beginning of the show, like,
why do you keep doing this?
It's because I actually give a.
(45:59):
You know about it.
Right, it's like because I'veseen the other side of the coin.
I can't tell you what to do,but, man, you just don't want
what happened to me.
You just don't want thealternative.
Trust me on this, just hangwith me.
It's going to be hard, but wecan do this right.
And I've come after a day andshe's like how are you doing?
I'm like I just got to sitquietly downstairs and pet the
(46:20):
dog.
It takes a lot out of you butyou have to care, and I think
that's a lot too, you know.
Another question I would I wouldhave your folks ask is is this
your full-time profession?
That's another good question.
Do you mediate full-time?
Because, um, I don't know, Idon't know if I mentioned this.
So when I was in, I was livingin Chicago and I was uh kind of
(46:41):
teaching at Northwesternuniversity.
I was like an assistant to thepeople who were teaching the
mediation classes, and a lot ofthe people who came in there
were mental health professionals, marriage counselors and they
thought well, you know, I'malready seeing couples in
trouble, so I'll become adivorce mediator as well.
It's like you just said.
Imagine if the plumber showedup at your house and gave you a
business card and said hey, bythe way, in addition to plumbing
(47:04):
, I also repair carburetors andI also paint bedrooms and I also
do needlepoint, you know, andyou'd be like, are you really
qualified as a plumber?
Right?
So you probably want to findout.
Does this person practice somekind of conflict resolution full
time?
Because this is a skill, right?
Mediation is a skill and itneeds to be honed and sharpened
(47:28):
and continued, and so that'sanother good question.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's a great question.
Only challenge is that if theyget all their business like,
they're not in the wrongbusiness, if they're getting
automatic business right, ifthey're getting automatic
business from the court, they'rejust and they're mailing it in.
That's where you got to askwell, what percentage of your
(47:51):
business, how much business I?
And I'd be curious because somuch as you, as you know,
because you you deal withdifferent parts of the country,
so so much of the family lawcourt is a cottage industry
where the attorneys know themediators know the mental health
professionals know the finance,and then they're just all
(48:12):
working together.
They know the judges becausethey went to law school with
them and they practiced for awhile and then they got on the
bench and then they're not goingto piss them off and they're
not going to really argue fortheir client, because they don't
want to piss the judge off,because they're going to have to
see them again.
They're not going to piss offopposing counsel either because
they're going to have to seethem again and talk to them.
(48:34):
So this is a whole cottageindustry thing.
So which again, when I'mcoaching guys right, and I
firmly believe that every personnow I didn't when I started
this I was like, yeah, coachingwould be good for you.
I think that every person goingthrough divorce should have it
I absolutely agree 100% now allthe time.
(48:55):
Yeah, yeah yeah, but you knowthat they should, so that they
can know and that they canunderstand this whole process
and what goes on in thatquestion of what percentage of
the business do you have to goout and you actually have to get
yourself, I think, in,especially in the States where
(49:16):
it's court ordered is afantastic and full-time.
Do you do this full-time?
Do you feed your family?
doing this and if you'recommitted to it, if you are
right and if you do whatpercentage of that is private,
that you work with couplesoutside of the court, what
percentage of that is attorneysthat you know, that you've
(49:38):
networked with, and whatpercentage is court ordered.
And then the last question iswhat is your resolution rate
based on all that?
Because then you can, you know,I mean this is a higher
equation thing but you can seethere.
There, if 70, if 90% of their oftheir cases are court ordered
and they have a 25% success rate, then you got it right there.
(50:01):
It's the, it's the, it's theColorado Rockies and the Chicago
Cubs.
For so many years, people keptshowing up to the games, even if
they weren't successful, justbecause they kept showing up.
That was the Cubs, and forever.
Speaker 2 (50:14):
That's the Colorado.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Rockies now, because everybody shows up and they
don't care if they win or not.
So it's that same philosophy.
They keep getting businessbecause it's just given to them.
They have no incentive toreally be successful.
So I think those are greatquestions that you ask and that
(50:36):
leads me into justre-emphasizing because I do with
the guys all the time is thatyou're in charge of this process
.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Absolutely.
That's a great point.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Get educated, ask the questions Don's a great point.
Get educated, ask the questions, don't bury your head.
If you weren't the leader inyour family and you weren't
leading, it might be one of thereasons why you're in this
position you're at.
It's the time now for you tostart doing that.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Ask your mediator If you don't get the answers find
another mediator and ask thequestions.
Speaker 1 (51:13):
If you don't get the answers or you don't like the
answers, find another one, butmake sure to start taking the
reins in this process.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Yeah, and if I can, just I'll share this with you.
I'll answer a question youdidn't ask, but you kind of did.
The percentage of clients weget from the courts or referral
is zero.
100% of our business is clientreferral or direct and we, for
that very reason it's exactlywhat you said.
It said because we work hard,we're selective, right, we
(51:45):
interview our clients too,because we want to make sure
that they're as committed tothis process as we are, because
we're putting it in day in andday out and along the lines of
what you were saying, and partof how we do that is, if you go
on our website, you probablyhave that in your show notes
here, whatever it is, we have aresource center and since 2007,
(52:09):
I can't believe I'm saying thatout loud I have been blogging
and I've been writing theseguides, everything from divorce
after 20 years to amicabledivorce, to how does alimony
work and all these things, andthat's how people find us.
Because we feel very stronglythat you need to get educated on
this process, because I'll justyou know, I know everybody's
(52:30):
listening, so it's not really asecret, but an educated client
is a great client for us.
They come in with realisticexpectations.
They come in with a sense ofhow things work, right, they
don't have to have all theanswers, but they have enough
information to know sort of whatthey don't know.
Right, and they can ask theintelligent questions.
So our philosophy has alwaysbeen to invest in people and
(52:51):
educate them.
And if they work with us, great,and if they don't, that's great
, because we get visitors fromall over the world and we're
only practicing in six states.
But let them get that knowledgeso that, like you said, they
can go away, they can feelempowered, they can feel
educated, and then the fear alsosubsides, right?
It's like I remember being akid.
I had to get my wisdom teethout.
(53:12):
I have no cavities in my face.
I don't know how that happened.
I have no cavities, neverreally had a problem to a
dentist and the first real maininteraction I had with a dentist
was to get my wisdom teeth out.
I was freaking out right,because I'm like, oh my God, and
(53:36):
then, like two hours later, I'meating SpaghettiOs.
I'm like, oh my god, and then,like two hours later, I'm eating
spaghettios.
I'm like, well, I freakedmyself out over this, right I?
If I had known, right, you know.
So same thing get educated,reduce the fear, reduce that
reactivity, work with a coachlike yourself, and then, and,
and, and, get through theprocess comp.
That's really key, key, key.
Speaker 1 (53:47):
Yeah, yeah, perfect, so we could probably talk for
another hour but we're even,we're like coming up on an hour.
So where was, where's thewebsite where they, where the
listeners, can find that, thatblog and that?
Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, sure, you just go to equitablemediationcom and
then you'll just see.
Right there there's a resourcecenter that has blogs.
It has video courses.
You know we have a free courseon mediation.
We have free books, blog posts.
You know all this kind of stuff.
There's even some courses thatyou can purchase.
(54:24):
We have I put together a wholenegotiation course on how to
negotiate a divorce right, notfill out the court forms and all
of that stuff.
On how to negotiate a divorceright, not fill out the court
forms and all of that stuff, buthow to actually get into the
room and negotiate with yoursoon-to-be ex, right.
What are all the things that I,as a mediator, do, whether
clients know it or not.
You also can learn to do that.
It's not hard.
(54:44):
You just have know certaintricks of the trade in your back
pocket if you will.
But a lot of that stuff is outthere.
You know a lot of it's free.
Just feel free to go there.
You know, use the resourcesthat are out there, right, get
educated on it.
And you know, just tell yourlisteners absolutely Like, don't
be afraid.
We have people who sometimescome to the first meeting and
(55:06):
they've printed out our blogposts.
I was like that's such a highcompliment, right?
It's like somebody took thetime to print out something you
wrote and keep it.
I was like, well, in this dayand age, right, that's so
digital and scrolly and all thatYou're like oh cool, Thanks
yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
And then at the website, can they reach you and
get a hold of you through thewebsite?
Speaker 2 (55:28):
Yeah, they can.
So you'll see there's a buttonthat says talk to us.
And we practice in WashingtonState, California, Illinois, New
York, Pennsylvania and NewJersey.
Those are the six states wepractice in.
So if you practice, in one ofour live in one of our six
states.
There's a little button up topthat says talk to us.
You click that.
You schedule a free call withmy partner, cheryl.
(55:50):
She'll tell you.
You know about how the processworks.
You know things like that.
See, if you're a good fit, youknow if mediation is a
possibility, then after that youcan schedule an initial meeting
with me and your spouse.
Like, so, that's the three ofus.
And so, yeah, so we have anopportunity for you to reach out
.
Schedule a call with Cheryl, noobligation.
We just want to say, hey, doesmediation work for you?
(56:10):
Can we work with you?
Are you a good fit?
Are we a good fit?
Give you a little education, alittle background, and again,
it's really just about gettingknowledge.
Because I'll leave you withthis.
When I think back to all theclients I've had, I can probably
count on two hands, maybe I'llsay so like one fraction of 1%
(56:31):
of the clients who have come tous, who have been previously
divorced.
Most of the people we work with, literally the 99.9% of the
clients we work with this is thefirst time they're going
through this and, like you said,I thought that was perfect.
You don't know what you don'tknow.
Through this and like you said,I thought that was perfect.
You don't know what you don'tknow, so know it, learn it.
(56:56):
It's out there.
Speaker 1 (56:57):
You can learn it right.
So get educated.
Big makes all the difference.
Yeah, Awesome.
Last question when are youcoming to Colorado?
And the other 44 states Becausewe definitely need a better
type of mediation like youprovide I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (57:10):
You know, give it some thought.
Right, because we like to gointo a state where we understand
how it works, we're comfortablemediating, we build a
professional network before weeven think of mediating
somewhere.
Right, we want mortgageprofessionals and review
attorneys and filingprofessionals and folks in our
back pocket.
But we'll certainly keepColorado in mind.
(57:31):
And, yeah, I'm really sorry youhad that experience, man, I'll
tell you, jude, that just breaksmy heart.
But unfortunately it's a storythat I hear a lot, because we
get quite a few clients who havecome to us from other mediators
and they're like what are wedoing here?
And I'm like, well, this is howit works.
Well, I should say, this is howit should work, right, and so
(57:52):
there is a right and a wrong wayto do this.
I truly believe that.
And that lends us to that caseresolution right, Because if you
have that process, you have itall out on the table.
It's really hard to argue withthe facts, you know so.
Speaker 1 (58:10):
Yeah, yeah, no that.
So yeah, yeah, no.
That's awesome and and uh, andit's a good thing, because then
it gives me the opportunity nowto share the right way uh with
with everybody and to be able topoint out the difference in the
future, going forward with uhwith the, with the dads that I
come in contact with, that thereis a better way uh to to do
this.
This is, this is who you cantalk to, and these are the
questions I learned so muchtoday.
(58:33):
It was phenomenal.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
I truly, truly appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
I've been in the family law system for 13 years
and this is enlightening andeye-opening for me today, and I
hope it was for everybody elsethat listened.
Joe, I really appreciate whatyou're doing, thank you.
Really appreciate theprofessionalism and the wisdom
and the conscientiousness thatyou bring to doing what you do.
(59:00):
It's obvious in talking to youand hearing you speak, hearing
you speak.
So having professionals likeyou in the system gives me hope
and helps me to tell guys yeah,mediation is a good thing.
Find somebody like Joe andequitable and it can be a good
thing.
That's great Well thanks.
(59:20):
Thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (59:21):
I sincerely appreciate it my pleasure, thank
you.
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