July 7, 2025 • 55 mins
The technological landscape of divorce has changed dramatically with the rise of smart home devices and surveillance technology. What happens when your Ring doorbell captures crucial evidence for your custody case? Or when your ex uses recordings against you in court? Family law attorney Sondra Douglas joins us to navigate this complex terrain.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week and we've got a very
exciting at least exciting forme topics, something that you've
heard us talk about,particularly if you've been on
some of our group coaching calls, but that's smart homes.
We're calling it, we're titlingit, smart homes, surveillance
(00:21):
and the law, but we're going tobe really talking around how
smart surveillance is impactingdivorce and custody cases.
I've got a phenomenal expertattorney with me today that I'll
introduce in just a moment.
That's going to share herexpertise around that as well.
But before we jump in, just areminder go check out the brand
refresh at the website atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
(00:45):
All kinds of great things there,particularly the divorce quiz.
I know we had some issues andsome links broken with that.
If you have taken it in thepast, hey, it's always a good
idea to take it again.
See kind of where you're at inyour process compared to where
you were before and compared towhere others are at in the
process as well.
This is going to give you someimmediate feedback and then also
(01:07):
give you an opportunity toconnect with me and chat with it
if you'd like to.
So go check that out atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
Okay, joining us today isSondra Douglas.
She is a compassionate andresourceful attorney known for
fiercely advocating for herclients, whether in family law
or personal injury cases.
(01:27):
With a background as a Marylandpublic defender and more than a
decade running her own practice, she now brings her sharp
instincts and creative problemsolving to the law firm of Stein
Sperling.
Sandra is a true lawyer of thepeople and we're excited to have
her on the show.
Sandra, welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thank you so much.
I am so excited to be here withyou this afternoon and what a
wonderful platform that you haveso people can know more about
the challenges and how tonavigate going through a divorce
.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, you know, thank you, I appreciate that and, as
you probably experienced withyour clients doing something for
the first time, you're nevercertain, right, whatever that
might be a new sport, a newwhatever, a hobby, but divorce
is the same way, and we all getinto this and we just don't know
(02:25):
what to expect.
And so that's the whole premiseof what we did and what we're
trying to do here, and so Ireally appreciate, from a family
law attorney standpoint, comingon and sharing some of that,
because oftentimes the firstthing and the first person that
they talk to is the, the, theattorney, right, which isn't
necessarily probably the beststrategy, because we were you
(02:48):
and I were talking offline, likethe mental, emotional aspects
around it, and uh, who filesfirst and who gets served, and
Dr Bruce Fisher's done a wholebook about uh, about this, about
uh being the um, being uh, the,uh, the, the one that has been,
(03:10):
uh served, and uh, the, the onethat has been served and the
one that's serving and the onethat gets served, and how
there's a different mentalemotional aspects around that,
et cetera, and I found thatfamily law attorneys oftentimes
don't really understand thewhole dynamic, but it sounds
like you do, and so I appreciateyou coming on and talking, but
we're going to be talking aboutsomething very specific, but
already talking with you justoffline, I appreciate the fact
that you understand some of thatand it is.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I mean, it's overwhelming.
You know, sometimes my clientsat Steins Rowing, they will take
it personal, you know wherethey're served, how they're
served, who served them, and sosometimes it's emotional, but
just really quickly since youdid bring that up, it's about
having the right team in place,you know, and that may include a
(03:53):
mental health provider or thatmay include a financial advisor.
It's really, you know, it'slike putting together the
perfect band, except for it'sthe reshaping of what your
family looks like.
I often tell my clients hey,we're reshaping.
I understand the emotionalcomponent.
I understand this is not idealof how you thought your family
(04:17):
would look, but it will be okay.
It'll be a different dynamicand we just have to navigate how
we move through that and whatthe boundaries are in place and
what your goals are.
And education is key, right?
So you start off with theeducation I like to start off
(04:37):
with the educational componentof the who, what, when, where
and why and go over that andwhen clients, they are emotional
when they first come to you,and so you may have to repeat it
a couple of times becausethey're getting over the shock
that they're even in thissituation.
So they may not be processingall the information that I am
(04:59):
trying to download to them.
So that's just a part of theeducational process.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, which is exactly why we've created the
Divorced Advocate Communities tosave you and others time in
having to deal with some of thatmental, emotional part of it
and figuring that out.
You and I were talking aboutand I know that a lot of the men
in the community know andunderstand and have already
heard this from me being served.
You're a little bit behind theeight ball, and so trying to
(05:27):
think about something like we'regoing to talk about today smart
surveillance, how that impactsyour case, what you should and
shouldn't be doing man, that'slike so far down the list that
when I start talking about it orwhen they start experiencing
something that's going on withthat, they're just flabbergasted
(05:47):
and so yeah, so, yeah, sothat's great.
Before we jump in, just share alittle bit.
So you're a public defender.
Why did you decide to startgetting into where couples are
arguing and going throughdivorce and have that be your
career choice at this point?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So I often get asked okay, so how did you get here?
How did you get here?
And you know, I say that, youknow, you that, saying that you
can make plans, and then Godlaughs you know I thought I was
going to be a corporate attorney.
I had no idea that I would bedoing family law, but I started
out.
I went to the University ofBaltimore School of Law.
(06:29):
It became evident to me throughthose CIPRO classes and
litigation classes that we tookthat I was a litigator and that
means that I belong in thecourtroom and that's where I
thrive.
That means that.
I belong in the courtroom andthat's where I thrive.
And so that became apparent tome.
I thought, ok, well, what bestway to get experience in the
(06:50):
courtroom, get to know thejudges, the clerks, get to know
opposing counsel who I may befacing, but to go to the public
defender's office.
So I went there.
I started out at the publicdefender's office, stayed there
for about three and a half years.
I then said, ok, well, let'stry this private practice.
I worked for a small firmbefore then opening up my own,
(07:12):
which I thoroughly enjoyed for13 years, before being recruited
to come to Steins Burling.
And you know, just leveling upmy, my litigation skills,
leveling up my litigation skillsand that's a very quick, quick
summary of how I landed at SteinSpurling and had joined forces
(07:33):
with some dynamic partners ofmine, and it's been a wonderful
experience that I'm thoroughlyenjoying.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's terrific.
I think that your point ispretty funny about kind of lice
twists and turns, and I used tosay on this show, like I've seen
it all right, and I stoppedsaying that because as soon as I
started saying that it's likeGod's like, oh really, well,
let's see if you've really seenit all.
Try this one on for size andsee that.
(08:03):
So yeah, so that's interesting.
So then let's talk about thesurveillance component around
this, because when I first get aguy that comes into the
community, a dad that comes intothe community and we might be
on a group call or individualcoaching and he has something
(08:26):
that's starting to moveseemingly towards high conflict
but not even yet but you canstart to hear the language
happening or the dynamicshappening, which you might not
always get to see or hear untilafter the fact, but oftentimes
I'll get to see and hear itdeveloping at almost in real
(08:47):
time.
Sometimes, unfortunately, we'llstart talking about okay, well,
you've got to be aware of thisand you've got to be covering
yourself if you are going tostart recording stuff and you
need to know what those laws are.
And so let's first talk aboutthere's one specific component,
which is two-party consent law.
(09:08):
There are some states and wehave international people
listening to, and so that wouldbe different wherever they're at
.
But there's different ways thatthe laws are in the different
states, and one is two-partyconsent law and one is not, and
so can you define so that wehave some reference for our
(09:29):
audience of what the differenceis between two-party consent and
non-two-party consent and whythat's important?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Sure, and I'm going to preface everything that I
share here by saying I amadmitted to practice law in
Maryland and DC, so everythingthat I am sharing is based on
that, so I won't be able tospeak across.
You know USA wide, but I canspeak as to Maryland and DC law.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
And I'll add to that we're not giving legal advice to
anybody.
This is not a show about legaladvice.
We are just sharing what weknow about the law and our
experiences.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Right.
Leave it to a lawyer to justsay we're putting these
disclaimers out here.
But one thing I will say isMarilyn, to answer your question
, marilyn is a two-party consentand DC is not.
You know you just need oneparty consent.
So that's very important, um,and I would elaborate that.
I see that come because ofwhere we're located.
(10:32):
You may have one client livingin DC and one client living in
Maryland, um, and the issue ofrecordings will come up.
One thing I did want to sayabout your intro of being caught
by surprise or the dad beingcaught by surprise.
I can't stress enough howimportant it is to work with an
(10:56):
interview, an attorney early,because you should be having
those conversations when thingsare escalating or things are
pivoting and turning.
I often do know about them andsometimes it's because I was in
the background pressing somebuttons through my client.
So it really is important towork with someone you trust and
(11:19):
have that attorney on your teamthat you can share the text
messages or the tone and thetemperament of how things are
evolving.
So I did want to add that tosomething you had stated.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, and I think you also mentioned basically the
way we describe it here isyou're putting your team
together, and the sooner you'reputting your team together, the
better off you're going to be.
And that's an attorney, that'shopefully a divorce coach,
that's a financial somebody, atherapist as well, like all of
that.
And the sooner you do that,lots of folks say, well, I just
(11:56):
want to do this, we want tofigure it out, we want to go to
mediation, we want to do thatno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
You know, that's why I said educating my client first
.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Because you know I get calls all the time oh no, no
, no, I don't want to do thelitigation.
I don't want to do that.
I want to do mediation, and youcan.
However, you need to know whatyou're entitled to or what
(13:08):
you're not entitled to, or whatthe court is separation
agreement you still need to havethat person on your team
Because, like you said, youdon't know what you don't know.
And I'll get the call that says,hey, we went to mediation, hey,
we have this agreement, Can youreview it for me?
And then it's like I'm broughton so late that I'm like did you
already tell them you're goingto do X, Y and Z?
(13:30):
And then I'm like, well, I haveto advise you that you're being
very gracious, or you didn'tnecessarily have to do that.
So you know, I can't stressthat enough.
I know, I know we're in aclimate where people do not.
They're like I want to mediate,I don't want the contentious,
(13:52):
long, litigious process and yourattorney that hears you will
hear you and they will actaccordingly.
But you still need to know allyour options.
And so choosing mediation doesnot mean that you're, that you
are not necessarily choosingmediation.
(14:14):
It just means your yourlitigation.
You're looking at all youroptions.
Yeah, yeah, one, yeah, 100%100%, you're coming up with that
game plan.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, exactly, you're putting your team together,
you're getting educated.
So that's the biggest thing wetalk about all the time.
You just can't bury your headand you've got to spend the time
learning what your statutes arein your jurisdiction.
You need to spend the timegetting up to speed, learning so
that you can speakintelligently to your attorney
(14:47):
about what's going on.
And just like anything, anyprofession there are bad
plumbers, there are bad anythingin any profession You've got to
be somewhat educated in what'sgoing on and be able to talk
intelligently and just don't putblind trust, because we just
put blind trust and that's whenthings go wrong.
(15:09):
And if you just want somebodyto take it off your plate and
handle it for you, that's justnot going to be good.
It's not going to be good foryou, but it's not going to be
good for your kids, right?
That's just not.
It's not going to work out well.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
You have to have somebody you have to have
somebody Exactly.
You have to have some buy-in.
You have to have some buy-in,exactly, and your attorney has
to learn what kind of parent youare and what kind of.
You know what are your goals.
You know what does that looklike.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
So it's going over all of that.
So back to the two-partyconsent.
So two-party consent is whenboth people must agree to being
recorded for it to be somethingthat is admissible in court,
correct?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You potentially could .
I don't want to say that itwill be admissible, but that's
like the first threshold, youknow, was there permission on
both parties?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
If there's not permission on both parties, then
you may have a challengegetting it introduced into
evidence Right and then withsingle-party consent, just means
that you can recordconversations or videos whenever
, wherever you want andpotentially they can, and
(16:19):
there's just a higherprobability that those can still
also be admissible in court asevidence Right.
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But before I would want to go over the facts
surrounding the reporting youknow, because sometimes clients
will be like, oh, I have thisand I'm like, how'd you get that
?
You know so you have to go intoand what does it show?
Sometimes it's telling clientsearly on like don't you know,
(16:47):
don't do that or don't send that, and sometimes you know they
feel bad because they don't know.
You know people don't know itgoes.
People don't know what theydon't know.
But that's why it's importantthat we educate them and advise
them accordingly.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Right, and so would you say, in those jurisdictions
where it is only single partyconsent, that you really need to
prepare yourself and go throughthe thought process of there is
a probability that I am goingto be recorded at any point
during this process.
I need to either be aware onebe aware of that, but two
(17:30):
perhaps take steps myself inorder to be doing that as well.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I agree with you.
Okay, and, just from anattorney's perspective, share
why that is important forsomebody that is starting this
process.
Because, like you and Imentioned, you and I discussed
(17:53):
the majority of men are servedright, and so inevitably when
I'm talking to guys about this,they're just, they're so far
behind in their thought processthis doesn't even show up on the
radar.
And then when I say, hey, thisis something you need to pay,
they're like seriously, mybeautiful bride that I love so
much, you know however manyyears and I had this many kids
they're like would they ever dothat to me?
Like, and if the answer is yes,hell yes, and you really need
(18:14):
to start paying attention.
Why?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
and a part of you know this goes back in preparing
for us to have thisconversation.
I thought about it.
You know some people just theyexpect the good out of others,
right?
And my job is not just to beokay, yes, yes, yes.
Say yes to my client, right,that's not even a word.
(18:39):
Yes, but not to always just sayyes, you're absolutely correct.
Part of my job is to advise theclient and advise them on where
the pitfalls are, where couldyou be at risk exposure?
And so a part of that is havingthat discussion.
If you have a spouse that feelsemboldened by, I got your
(19:04):
moments you need to be preparedto think, okay, this could be
recorded.
I also think, in the year of2025, where everyone has a cell
phone and everyone is recording,you should be thinking that way
anyway, whether you're in a twoparty consent or one party
consent state, you should bethinking litigation is going on
(19:28):
or settlement discussions arehappening.
I need to, I need to cross myT's and dot my I's, because
someone is watching whateverthis person has said or is
(19:49):
trying to frame as theirstrategy.
That should always be in theforefront of your mind, like how
can I make sure that I and Ialways tell my clients you know
we're going to fly high, right?
Because with recording,sometimes judges, the feedback
that I have gotten is like okay,is this a petty moment?
You know, are you now trying to.
I gotcha, or you didn't do this,or you didn't pack Sally or
(20:12):
Johnny's snack, or look at thispicture of molded food, If I can
tell you how many pictures ofmolded food or videos of molded
food is, and I'm like okay, andclients think, oh, here's the
fiery gun.
You know I've got a video oflunch.
Maybe they didn't read theexpiration marks or maybe they
(20:33):
didn't.
They got it wrong.
You know, is that a recordingthat you want to risk when
balancing out what will benefityour case versus harm your case
out what will benefit your caseversus harm your case?
You need to have an attorneythat you can have that
conversation Because while youmay think it's your smoking gun,
a court may look at this andsay, okay, this surveillance,
(20:55):
you're going in my petty box andno judge will say, well, some
depends on who you're before.
May say like, okay, howrelevant is that, ms Douglas?
And you don't want thathappening.
You want to put on a case whereonly your relevant items, the
evidence, is being presented tocourt.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Right, and you mentioned flying high or taking
the high road and I wanted tomake the comment which you can
still make sure that you'reprotecting yourself and your
children by, especially in theone party consent states, by
doing the recordings and stilltake the high road.
It's just insurance, to makesure, and I can't tell you the
(21:42):
number of times and I'veexperienced this myself
personally with not havingsomething recorded where I
probably should have because Iknew better, and then also
having recordings that it reallysaved my butt and the thousands
of other guys that I've talkedto and many that have had these.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Let's talk about that a bit that have had these.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
So I represented um, a, anathlete, um, uh, a well-known
athlete in the past, and one ofthe one of the things that he
used to do was record because it, you know, if there was a, an I
gotcha moment, it would be verycostly for him to be in an I
(22:28):
gotcha moment.
And so, you know, part of ourstrategy was OK, you need to
always be in public when you dothese exchanges.
You want to have someone in thecar with you, not just having
the camera rolling, but alsohave that independent third
(22:48):
party with you to be able toobserve and protect you.
So in that situation, he wasable to be able to always do
that.
But, yeah, we were successfulon getting a protective order
(23:09):
denied because of that footage,because we took those steps.
But that came from I learned, Ilearned about his significant
other very well, like we hadlike OK, I, you know, she's
asking me to meet here.
What should I do?
And I'm there, play by play, tosay, ok, this is what you
should do.
All right, send it to me.
What do we got?
And the court was in thatsituation.
(23:29):
The court was very upset withthe opposing party because it's
like your petition is notmatching up to what this video
you know is saying.
So you do have those incidenceswhere sometimes having the
recording is helpful, especiallyif it's in a public place in
court in having the evidence andbeing able to utilize it as
(23:52):
refuting maybe some falseallegations like you just
(24:14):
described.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Is it still beneficial if you are in a
two-party, Because there's likea fine line right If you are
recording, it's a two-partyconsent.
It might not be admissible incourt, but maybe it is possible
to utilize that in refuting afalse allegation from somebody
that is using that in thecontext of a custody case.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So what you are and I want to make sure that I hear
you completely so what you are,and I want to make sure that I
hear you completely.
I think what you're asking isabout impeachment, what we call
impeaching a witness.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Where a witness may get on the stand and say, no, I
wasn't at Safeway to exchangethe children and he showed up
there by himself and I don'tknow what happened, or something
like that, and you're trying toshow that, no, you were at
Safeway.
Here's this video showing youwere at, you know, Safeway.
(25:12):
I would say, in that incident,in that scenario, again, I would
have to it's fact specific.
You know I'm making up thesefacts as we go on.
But if it's, if, if they'retrying to say like my client
showed up with a baseball batand was like hitting her or
doing something like that, thatcould be helpful, Um, and the
(25:34):
impeach part against hertestimony, we may could use that
.
Um, I still have to lay thefoundation of how the video came
to be, have it authenticated,where did it come from and what
I may do.
I may end up, instead of usingthe cell phone recording, I may
(25:55):
go and get the recording outsideof the grocery store.
If there's cameras around, Imay go that route.
And then there's tools of.
I don't want to bore you withrules of evidence, but then
there's other rules of evidenceI can use, you know, certificate
, business record.
I can get it in another way.
(26:16):
So part of the I want to makesure I'm answering your question
A part of the issue can be thathow you use the video.
Maybe the video is to say okay,what time did you take this
video?
It happened at 1.52.
All right, let's go Now.
I know exactly where topinpoint to get the video from
somewhere else, In case thevideo that they took in the car,
(26:39):
for some reason, based on therules of evidence, is not
admitted, I wouldn't be able toget it in.
So it really is specific.
Maybe I use it to get anotherpiece of evidence, Maybe I use
it.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It just really depends, I know people and so no
, yeah, so no, no.
You answered my question and,and, and the question was
because, what, what?
What I experienced and what Ihear a lot is that the dads are
wary of doing that because theyfeel like it's going to cross a
legal line and that they couldget legally in trouble for
(27:12):
recording and then that's goingto look bad for them.
But what I'm thinking aboutwhen advising them and what
we're talking about in thiscontext with the dads that are
listening, that it is justsomething to do exactly what you
described.
Even if it is a two-partyconsent, state or area, then
(27:34):
it's still not a bad idea tohave recordings, less about oh,
I was at the Safeway pickingthem up and more of a false
allegation of abuse to the kidsor something else, where you
just say that just didn't happenand this does happen.
These false allegations dohappen, guys, and some of them
(27:58):
can be mitigated, even in atwo-party consent, by having
some sort of recording.
That is maybe it's notadmissible, but maybe you can do
something.
Your attorney can do somethingelse like you just described
find a public camera or send iteven over and say this just
didn't happen.
So if you're going to pursuethis area, it's probably not a
(28:19):
good idea, et cetera.
It's just again having theability to cover yourself and
have that, even if it's notsomething that can be admissible
in court.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, and I also.
When you were speaking, Ithought about the situations
what comes to mind is like theDSS case, right of child abuse,
or my spouse is not caring forthe child or they're being
abused.
In those types of situationswhere it's like, okay, well, do
(28:52):
you have a nanny cam?
Are you able to say, look?
Or and it may depend again onthe facts it may involve me
coming in and saying you knowwhat you're making these lofty
allegations?
We're just going to keep thenanny cam rolling.
I just want you to know that,because you've made this an
issue for us, my client and I,this is what we're going to do,
(29:16):
you know.
Then it's like, well, don'tcome saying later.
Well, no, you know, my childdidn't consent or you know you
start like, look, I'm puttingyou on notice, since you're
making these allegations.
I have to protect myself andthis is what I choose to do.
So you know you sometimes dohave to think outside of the box
to protect the client and makesure that they're okay and when
(29:41):
those types of allegations startarising, that especially dads
of girls, right you have dads ofgirls that have represented a
lot of dads of girls and they'rejust like, oh my goodness, I
have to take her to the bathroom.
What do I do?
You know?
And so it's, it's thinkingthrough all the ways that we can
(30:02):
protect the client.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So let's talk a little bit.
Then also, there is adifference between doorbell
cameras, and so this issomething that I did not know
that makes that evidence andthose recordings a little bit
different than, say, if you'rerecording in the exterior or the
interior of your home.
Share a little bit about thosedifference of doorbell cameras,
(30:28):
why they're different and whatcan be.
What is a, what is a goodstandard operating procedure of
how to how to function withthose.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
OK.
So the first thing I want youto think about is the standard
is expectation of privacy.
I want you to think about isthe standard is expectation of
privacy?
Okay, If you have a, a camera,outside of your house?
um and you have neighbors andyou have other uh houses that
are on that street.
What is your, your expectationof privacy?
As far as you know, this is myyard.
(31:01):
I want to keep the flowers, Iwant to mow my yard.
That's a different standardversus.
I have a camera that's on ourgarage and the direction is
towards the street and you seeeveryone driving by.
You see everyone walking by.
I've been successful in gettinginto evidence.
(31:22):
If there is a doorbell camerathat you know, you come up, you
see it, it's in plain view, it'sin plain sight.
The expectation is, it'sworking, you know.
So that expectation of privacyis not the same as maybe you are
having a nanny cam in yourhouse and your ex-spouse comes
(31:48):
over to the house and when youwere married to them you didn't
have the nanny cam, but now youdo.
Well, then it's announced tothem this is being recorded,
this conversation is beingrecorded.
The video and the audio is beingrecorded so that you can cross
over that hurdle of them sayingthe opposing party saying why
(32:11):
expect a privacy in your home?
Because I've never known you tohave a nanny.
There's also been situationswhere I have clients.
They live in an apartment andthey're recording and the voices
are raised and they're yellingor there's other people in the
house.
You can shift that argumentwhere if you're not home alone
(32:32):
and you have guests over in thehouse, what's your expectation
of privacy?
If you're in an apartmentbuilding yelling to the top of
your lungs, what's theexpectation of privacy that
you're not going to be recordedlungs what's the expectation of
privacy that you're not going tobe recorded?
So it is very much factspecific.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So let me ask you this with the doorbell cams and
the exterior cams generally, canyou say that even in two party
consent areas or states thatthat is probably going to be
considered a public area thatdoesn't require two-party
(33:10):
consent, that it's just beingrecorded?
It's being recorded whetherit's both video and audio at any
given time, because I'veactually had clients that have
had this literally save theircustody cases because their ex
was on video cam like completelydenigrating them to the, to the
(33:31):
neighborhood and to neighborswho were coming over and talking
to them, et cetera, and becauseit was outside, it was on the
camera, they were on the frontporch and she was doing all this
stuff.
It was all admissible and so assoon as they started with he's
a bad dad and he's doing thisand we've got all these
witnesses who actually line upwith the video of who they're on
(33:53):
the cam that she's beenbasically coaching on how to
denigrate him.
It ended like immediatelybecause they had it.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I call that the setup right.
You know, you set them, youknow, and then you come in with
your cross-examination, with thevideo of them, you know, acting
irate or whatever the video mayshow, um, and that that that
usually will be successful.
Also, I want to note too, likeif you're recording outside your
(34:25):
kids' extracurricularactivities, you know, you know
if they're at an extracurricularactivity and you want to record
, like the pickup in theexchange, you know, do we have
people coming in and out?
What's the expectation ofprivacy there?
You may be successful ingetting those types of videos in
as well.
And getting those types ofvideos in as well.
I think a public place'sexpectation of privacy is the
(34:48):
standard.
Can you get over that?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Okay.
So essentially we could.
A general good rule of thumb isif it's a public place, then
you're more than likely okay tobe recording something, whether
it's a two-party, one-partyconsent place, because the
expectation isn't there.
There's not the expectation ofprivacy.
So if you're doing pickups anddrop-offs and they're videoing
(35:15):
you or you're videoing them,okay, like I've had guys just
complain about that, that theyget videoed every time and
they're like you know what?
Okay, wear a clown suit orwhatever, make it fun, you're
not doing anything wrong, sodon't worry about it.
It's a public area, that's fine.
It's just going to happen.
I don't know, you don't knowwhat they're, what's in their
mindset or whatever it is, butthat's just a public place and
(35:37):
that's fine.
Is that that's safe to say?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yes, yes, that's a good assessment.
People also, you know thesocial media, you know you want
to be careful about.
Even though you're like, ok,fine, you're recording me, they
can also say, look, I'm notgiving you permission to record
me.
And if they don't feelcomfortable and they want that
(36:00):
to stop, and there's otheroptions in communication that we
can reach out to opposing partyas if that's happening.
But I think that I think thatit's just important for the
person to know and maybe expresshey, please don't post this on
social media.
(36:20):
Like that's embarrassing, likeit's not in the best interest of
the children to have theirpickups and drop-offs shared on
social media.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, let's talk about that and categorize it
under stupid things not to do.
Right, like don't record stuff.
You're not doing this.
You're not litigating this caseon social media to see which
friends are going to line upwith you, and not doing this.
You're not.
Uh, you're not litigating thiscase on social media to see
which friends are going to lineup with you, and not.
(36:49):
There's absolutely no benefitto to doing something stupid
like recording that and puttingit on and getting getting
feedback or whatever.
Just don't do that.
That's stupid.
No matter if you're right or ifyou're wrong, just don't do it.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
That's, just that's just the short term thrill that
you may feel can easily backfire.
And because the court you mustalways consider that the court
is hearing evidence and they'relooking for who is the parent
that will be able to put theirown feelings aside.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And even the actions of the other party, even if they
were, you know, wrong, notnecessarily in line with
co-parenting skills, to makedecisions that are best for the
children.
And if you're a, you know, aconstant social media poster
about your co-parenting andthings that are happening and
(37:53):
things that are going on, itjust I have not, I have seen
that it just doesn't go well,you know.
Join a private group, you know,but even in that, you know, we
can, in discovery, ask for yoursocial media postings and
communication.
You know.
Join something off social media, you know.
Maybe ask for your divorcecoach to refer you to a small
(38:17):
group and and vet yourgrievances there.
Don't, don't do it on socialmedia.
It just it makes for a horribleline of questioning Right.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Actually a safe practice would just get off
social media during your divorce.
There's going to be little tono benefit to being on it During
it.
You're going to be tempted todo stupid stuff.
There's all kinds of crappyinformation out there around
divorce, whether it's legaladvice or mental, emotional
(38:50):
advice, et cetera.
Really and that's not a slam onsocial media it's just that you
got enough going on in yourhead.
You got enough going on in yourlife.
Taking that break from socialmedia during that time there's
only good that could come out ofit and there's going to be less
temptation to do super stuffthat's going to then impact your
(39:12):
case, which then is going toimpact your life and your kids'
lives for years and years tocome.
So just think of it that wayTaking a six-month or a year
sabbatical from social media isjust going to help you for 10 or
15 or however many years you'regoing to have going forward
with your kids, because if youscrew up something like that,
it's going to impact your case.
(39:33):
It's going to have a long-termimplication.
So just try to get off it and,like you said, join the Divorced
Advocate community or find ameetup group or a church group,
support group or 12-step group,if there's something like
Codependence, anonymous orsomething like that, where you
can then get the not only beable to share your grievances
(39:54):
and talk through things, but getsome help and support around
that, because if your firstinstinct is to go to social
media and post something, youprobably have some deeper issues
you need to be working on.
So that's great advice and someof it may not even be
intentional.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I want to put this warning there.
You know they may.
You know you may not be saying,oh, she upset me so bad.
Today I'm going to air out onsocial media what's happening.
That may not be yourintentional thought, but it
could be a simple inbox thishappened to a client about.
There was a simple inbox whereit's like you know, I heard you
(40:29):
did this to your wife and dotdot dot.
You know it's a bait and don'ttake the bait.
You know, because then you getinto discussing and then it can
be used not for your benefit,but to say, oh, did you know
your husband is on, you know,inboxing and saying all kinds of
horrible things about you.
(40:50):
So I want to put that out there.
We're not saying you're bad.
We're not saying that you'regoing to intentionally do
something wrong, but it couldjust be used against you and not
helpful.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Right, you and not helpful.
Right, and that's a great point,too, that we should also
mention around in the context ofwhat we talked about in the
beginning, which is you shouldjust have the expectation that
you're likely being recordedsomehow audio, video or whatever
.
And this, especially important,if you're still cohabitating,
(41:23):
right, sharing a same space isyou got to be Ward Cleaver,
basically and that mightactually be a reference for some
of you younger folks listeningthat don't know who Ward Cleaver
is you basically need to betowing the line all the time.
Don't get into, don't be baited, don't get into the arguments,
definitely don't get into anyphysical and just make sure to
(41:45):
walk away from anything thatcould be perceived or that is
something that is going to bebrought into court or shared
with the other side, and that'sseriously even just arguments.
Right, you just want to avoidany and all of that and step
away.
And if you need to have a thirdparty, like your attorney or
(42:08):
your therapist or a familytherapist if you guys are in
that context, deal with it Thendo that.
Do not get involved to where itescalates to where it's going
to be on recording.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Agreed.
Okay, good, that's all I needAgreed from the expert that's
going to have to deal with theaftermath of figuring this out
if you don't heed this advice.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Okay, steps to the dads that maybe have just been
served recently, are startingthis process and they're maybe
(42:58):
still cohabitating like Idescribed and they want to make
sure that they're taking some ofthese first important steps.
What would those be?
In particular, around therecording, things to be aware of
, like the surveillance.
What should they do?
What shouldn't they do Some ofthese first steps?
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So one of the first steps, of course, I would say,
is start interviewing forattorneys.
(43:36):
Right, talk to people who havewent through a divorce.
Know what your communication?
Okay, but you know if you ifyou you may not fully know, I
should say, but as far as howfrequently you would want to
speak to your attorney, but youknow, if you want to speak to
your attorney every day, justbecause that may be calming and
soothing and may be expensive,but you know calming and
soothing, then know that so thatyou can articulate that to the
(43:59):
attorney that you'reinterviewing.
You know, know the questions toask.
Know yourself, right, knowyourself.
Talk about expectations.
What are the expectations?
What is the process?
What's the steps of litigationor mediation?
What does the steps look like?
(44:22):
To choose a mediator?
You know, is that attorneyfamiliar with working with a
different array of mediators?
But number one I want to alsosay, so this is one A, I would
say Don't feel pressured tomatch the, feel compelled,
(44:48):
without the advice of yourattorney, to feel like you have
(45:10):
to do the same.
Less is more, less is moresometimes.
And so sometimes, being theparent, that's not always having
the cell phone out and reallytaking the time to enjoy time
with your children and focus onthem.
A court will appreciate thatright.
(45:31):
So don't let the smart techshouldn't replace the smart
parenting skills being attentive, being in your children's world
, knowing what they need andmeeting those needs and then
communicating what those needsare to your co-parent.
That will carry a lot of weightwith the board.
(45:57):
While your spouse is over hererecording every interaction,
you're sending an email to talkabout Kate and Samantha's
homework or summer camp, or howthey did in the new activity or
the new sports teams.
If you could fill yourcommunication with those types
(46:20):
of examples, it demonstratesyour ability to what I call be
outside of the petty box, right.
So I think that that those aretwo things that I would really
stress to your to your dads andtrust.
(46:58):
If you decided on an attorney,trust and talk strategy.
You should not just be talkingabout all right, on June 30th,
we have to do this and do that.
What is the long-term goal?
I think clients communicatingto them the why helps them with
the investment in the process.
Right, if I know why I'mtelling you to say this or do
this and how this will make abeautiful exhibit it helps them
to be like OK, let me do itright now.
So those are tips I would.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
OK, that's good, and I think that kind of takes us
full circle from what we weretalking about earlier, which is
you can still take the high roadright Everything that you just
described with still workingeffectively with your soon-to-be
ex and starting that process ofco-parenting effectively, but
still also keeping in the backof your mind you want to prepare
(47:42):
for the worst.
So maybe that is that you aregoing to install a nanny cam if
there's a single party consent,and you're just going to have it
running all the time, just incase something's going to happen
, or you put that doorbell camup so that you've got that going
.
But that's not your focus.
Again, you're planning for theworst, worst and you're hoping
(48:04):
for the best.
You're going to your attorney,you're finding an attorney,
you're making sure what you'redoing and how you're
communicating is the mosteffective way for your case.
Hopefully you're finding someoutside support around what you
said, because if they're goingto be using you for therapy,
that's going to be reallyexpensive.
And so go find a divorce coachright, which I highly recommend
(48:27):
for everybody and anybody allthe time anymore going through
this.
It's enough of an establishedindustry where there are good
divorce coaches that are goingto help you and it's going to be
well worth your money.
Because if you're using Sandraas your therapist and your
attorney, I mean that's great.
She don't want to do that, butit's going to be a buttload of
billable hours and so you'regoing to save some money by not
(48:51):
doing that and find a coach,find a therapist and do that and
put your team together, butyou'll have Sandra and your
attorney that's going to helpyou through this process, going
to help you talk about what youshould be, what could be working
If there is something thatcomes up.
You've just got yourselfcovered.
You're still walking that highroad, but you're still preparing
(49:12):
for the worst case scenario.
Sound good?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yes, and my role in the band, as I call it, or the
team, is to strategize the caseand execute Right.
It's to strategize the case andexecute right.
You, if you're having a veryhard time, an emotional time,
you need that support.
And I tell my clients that'slike one of my first intake
questions Do you have atherapist that you're working
with or would?
(49:36):
you like for a recommendation,because if you don't have that,
you can't necessarily be yourbest self to show up, and we
need that, your kids need that.
Forget about your attorney.
You need that, your childrendeserve it and you deserve it.
And so you still have to parent.
Through this right, you'restill creating memory, you're
(49:58):
still doing all the things thatneed to be done as a parent with
this added layer.
So just having that system inplace, and then sometimes the
children need therapy, so it's,you know, everybody being on the
same page to move forward.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah and maybe this is a whole nother topic and
maybe another podcast episode wecan get together and talk about
how they prepare strategy, howthey're actually leading the
strategy in working inconjunction with you, because
you have a limited amount oftime for you to work on their
case, but they know the fullbreadth of everything that's
(50:35):
happening.
So they're the ones that have tostart working on the strategy.
Talk about what that is withyou in the context of legalities
and then go forward with that,because I see this all the time.
Talk about what that is withyou in the context of legalities
and then go forward with that,Because I see this all the time,
which is these guys leave thestrategy just to the attorney
and the attorney.
I mean, that's like workingwith just a partial
(50:57):
understanding of everythingthat's going on.
You don't know everythingthat's going on, so that's their
job to figure that out, toconvey that to you, to prepare
all of that, and then we'recollaboratively with you in
implementing that.
So maybe I'll have you back onand we can talk about that.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Because we could spend quite a bit of time
talking about what that lookslike.
How does the attorney clientrelationship, what it looks like
right, what it looks like toknow, your options.
I tell my clients I'm the one onthe bus with you when I tell
you all the different directionsand possibility possible routes
(51:40):
, mediation being one of theroutes but technically you are
in the driver's seat.
You can say, oh, sandra, that'sa little too aggressive.
How about if and this is what Ido day in, day out how about if
we started this step and seewhat their response?
And I will role play with myclients and I'm like okay, we
started step one, but if theyreact this way, or if this is
(52:02):
the response, I'm telling you weneed to heed to this sign, and
this is a sign that we may needto pivot and go this route.
So, yeah, I would love to.
Because we could talk about thatall day yeah yeah.
Come back and talk about whatthat looks like, because I think
sometimes people don't know andso they don't know what to
(52:24):
expect and they just leave it tothe attorney to just Yep,
exactly, and there's differentstyles.
There's different work styles,and so it's knowing what works
for you.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Okay, great.
Well, we'll leave that as ateaser for the dads listening in
the future that we're going tocome back and we're going to
talk about that in a futureepisode, because I think that
would be very beneficial.
So, to the listeners, sandra,that are in the Maryland area
that might want to connect withyou, what is the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Wonderful.
Yes, If you have a matter inthe DMV area and I will say, at
Steins Burling, we are a fullservice law firm so we can help
you with other matters as well,my phone number is 301-838-3274,
or feel free to send me anemail at sdouglas, that's
Douglas with one S atsteinsperlingcom.
(53:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed myself.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, fantastic conversation.
I sincerely appreciate the factthat you share all these pearls
of wisdom on a very sensitivetopic, but a really, really
important topic that can trulyturn the tide of, like we said,
like decades of what happenswith the future of your family,
(53:43):
depending on what you do or youdon't do.
So, thank you and anybodylistening.
If you found some value in this, please share it far and wide
on social media.
Leave us a star rating, leave acomment about this, connect
with Sandra, connect with thecommunity.
That's why we're here.
But, sandra, thank you so much.
I sincerely appreciate youbeing on here.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
Thank you, my pleasure.
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week and we've got a very
exciting at least exciting forme topics, something that you've
heard us talk about,particularly if you've been on
some of our group coaching calls, but that's smart homes.
We're calling it, we're titlingit, smart homes, surveillance
(00:21):
and the law, but we're going tobe really talking around how
smart surveillance is impactingdivorce and custody cases.
I've got a phenomenal expertattorney with me today that I'll
introduce in just a moment.
That's going to share herexpertise around that as well.
But before we jump in, just areminder go check out the brand
refresh at the website atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
(00:45):
All kinds of great things there,particularly the divorce quiz.
I know we had some issues andsome links broken with that.
If you have taken it in thepast, hey, it's always a good
idea to take it again.
See kind of where you're at inyour process compared to where
you were before and compared towhere others are at in the
process as well.
This is going to give you someimmediate feedback and then also
(01:07):
give you an opportunity toconnect with me and chat with it
if you'd like to.
So go check that out atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
Okay, joining us today isSondra Douglas.
She is a compassionate andresourceful attorney known for
fiercely advocating for herclients, whether in family law
or personal injury cases.
(01:27):
With a background as a Marylandpublic defender and more than a
decade running her own practice, she now brings her sharp
instincts and creative problemsolving to the law firm of Stein
Sperling.
Sandra is a true lawyer of thepeople and we're excited to have
her on the show.
Sandra, welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Thank you so much.
I am so excited to be here withyou this afternoon and what a
wonderful platform that you haveso people can know more about
the challenges and how tonavigate going through a divorce
.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Well, you know, thank you, I appreciate that and, as
you probably experienced withyour clients doing something for
the first time, you're nevercertain, right, whatever that
might be a new sport, a newwhatever, a hobby, but divorce
is the same way, and we all getinto this and we just don't know
(02:25):
what to expect.
And so that's the whole premiseof what we did and what we're
trying to do here, and so Ireally appreciate, from a family
law attorney standpoint, comingon and sharing some of that,
because oftentimes the firstthing and the first person that
they talk to is the, the, theattorney, right, which isn't
necessarily probably the beststrategy, because we were you
(02:48):
and I were talking offline, likethe mental, emotional aspects
around it, and uh, who filesfirst and who gets served, and
Dr Bruce Fisher's done a wholebook about uh, about this, about
uh being the um, being uh, the,uh, the, the one that has been,
(03:10):
uh served, and uh, the, the onethat has been served and the
one that's serving and the onethat gets served, and how
there's a different mentalemotional aspects around that,
et cetera, and I found thatfamily law attorneys oftentimes
don't really understand thewhole dynamic, but it sounds
like you do, and so I appreciateyou coming on and talking, but
we're going to be talking aboutsomething very specific, but
already talking with you justoffline, I appreciate the fact
that you understand some of thatand it is.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
I mean, it's overwhelming.
You know, sometimes my clientsat Steins Rowing, they will take
it personal, you know wherethey're served, how they're
served, who served them, and sosometimes it's emotional, but
just really quickly since youdid bring that up, it's about
having the right team in place,you know, and that may include a
(03:53):
mental health provider or thatmay include a financial advisor.
It's really, you know, it'slike putting together the
perfect band, except for it'sthe reshaping of what your
family looks like.
I often tell my clients hey,we're reshaping.
I understand the emotionalcomponent.
I understand this is not idealof how you thought your family
(04:17):
would look, but it will be okay.
It'll be a different dynamicand we just have to navigate how
we move through that and whatthe boundaries are in place and
what your goals are.
And education is key, right?
So you start off with theeducation I like to start off
(04:37):
with the educational componentof the who, what, when, where
and why and go over that andwhen clients, they are emotional
when they first come to you,and so you may have to repeat it
a couple of times becausethey're getting over the shock
that they're even in thissituation.
So they may not be processingall the information that I am
(04:59):
trying to download to them.
So that's just a part of theeducational process.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, which is exactly why we've created the
Divorced Advocate Communities tosave you and others time in
having to deal with some of thatmental, emotional part of it
and figuring that out.
You and I were talking aboutand I know that a lot of the men
in the community know andunderstand and have already
heard this from me being served.
You're a little bit behind theeight ball, and so trying to
(05:27):
think about something like we'regoing to talk about today smart
surveillance, how that impactsyour case, what you should and
shouldn't be doing man, that'slike so far down the list that
when I start talking about it orwhen they start experiencing
something that's going on withthat, they're just flabbergasted
(05:47):
and so yeah, so, yeah, sothat's great.
Before we jump in, just share alittle bit.
So you're a public defender.
Why did you decide to startgetting into where couples are
arguing and going throughdivorce and have that be your
career choice at this point?
Speaker 2 (06:07):
So I often get asked okay, so how did you get here?
How did you get here?
And you know, I say that, youknow, you that, saying that you
can make plans, and then Godlaughs you know I thought I was
going to be a corporate attorney.
I had no idea that I would bedoing family law, but I started
out.
I went to the University ofBaltimore School of Law.
(06:29):
It became evident to me throughthose CIPRO classes and
litigation classes that we tookthat I was a litigator and that
means that I belong in thecourtroom and that's where I
thrive.
That means that.
I belong in the courtroom andthat's where I thrive.
And so that became apparent tome.
I thought, ok, well, what bestway to get experience in the
(06:50):
courtroom, get to know thejudges, the clerks, get to know
opposing counsel who I may befacing, but to go to the public
defender's office.
So I went there.
I started out at the publicdefender's office, stayed there
for about three and a half years.
I then said, ok, well, let'stry this private practice.
I worked for a small firmbefore then opening up my own,
(07:12):
which I thoroughly enjoyed for13 years, before being recruited
to come to Steins Burling.
And you know, just leveling upmy, my litigation skills,
leveling up my litigation skillsand that's a very quick, quick
summary of how I landed at SteinSpurling and had joined forces
(07:33):
with some dynamic partners ofmine, and it's been a wonderful
experience that I'm thoroughlyenjoying.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
That's terrific.
I think that your point ispretty funny about kind of lice
twists and turns, and I used tosay on this show, like I've seen
it all right, and I stoppedsaying that because as soon as I
started saying that it's likeGod's like, oh really, well,
let's see if you've really seenit all.
Try this one on for size andsee that.
(08:03):
So yeah, so that's interesting.
So then let's talk about thesurveillance component around
this, because when I first get aguy that comes into the
community, a dad that comes intothe community and we might be
on a group call or individualcoaching and he has something
(08:26):
that's starting to moveseemingly towards high conflict
but not even yet but you canstart to hear the language
happening or the dynamicshappening, which you might not
always get to see or hear untilafter the fact, but oftentimes
I'll get to see and hear itdeveloping at almost in real
(08:47):
time.
Sometimes, unfortunately, we'llstart talking about okay, well,
you've got to be aware of thisand you've got to be covering
yourself if you are going tostart recording stuff and you
need to know what those laws are.
And so let's first talk aboutthere's one specific component,
which is two-party consent law.
(09:08):
There are some states and wehave international people
listening to, and so that wouldbe different wherever they're at
.
But there's different ways thatthe laws are in the different
states, and one is two-partyconsent law and one is not, and
so can you define so that wehave some reference for our
(09:29):
audience of what the differenceis between two-party consent and
non-two-party consent and whythat's important?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Sure, and I'm going to preface everything that I
share here by saying I amadmitted to practice law in
Maryland and DC, so everythingthat I am sharing is based on
that, so I won't be able tospeak across.
You know USA wide, but I canspeak as to Maryland and DC law.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
And I'll add to that we're not giving legal advice to
anybody.
This is not a show about legaladvice.
We are just sharing what weknow about the law and our
experiences.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Right.
Leave it to a lawyer to justsay we're putting these
disclaimers out here.
But one thing I will say isMarilyn, to answer your question
, marilyn is a two-party consentand DC is not.
You know you just need oneparty consent.
So that's very important, um,and I would elaborate that.
I see that come because ofwhere we're located.
(10:32):
You may have one client livingin DC and one client living in
Maryland, um, and the issue ofrecordings will come up.
One thing I did want to sayabout your intro of being caught
by surprise or the dad beingcaught by surprise.
I can't stress enough howimportant it is to work with an
(10:56):
interview, an attorney early,because you should be having
those conversations when thingsare escalating or things are
pivoting and turning.
I often do know about them andsometimes it's because I was in
the background pressing somebuttons through my client.
So it really is important towork with someone you trust and
(11:19):
have that attorney on your teamthat you can share the text
messages or the tone and thetemperament of how things are
evolving.
So I did want to add that tosomething you had stated.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, and I think you also mentioned basically the
way we describe it here isyou're putting your team
together, and the sooner you'reputting your team together, the
better off you're going to be.
And that's an attorney, that'shopefully a divorce coach,
that's a financial somebody, atherapist as well, like all of
that.
And the sooner you do that,lots of folks say, well, I just
(11:56):
want to do this, we want tofigure it out, we want to go to
mediation, we want to do thatno-transcript.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
You know, that's why I said educating my client first
.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Because you know I get calls all the time oh no, no
, no, I don't want to do thelitigation.
I don't want to do that.
I want to do mediation, and youcan.
However, you need to know whatyou're entitled to or what
(13:08):
you're not entitled to, or whatthe court is separation
agreement you still need to havethat person on your team
Because, like you said, youdon't know what you don't know.
And I'll get the call that says,hey, we went to mediation, hey,
we have this agreement, Can youreview it for me?
And then it's like I'm broughton so late that I'm like did you
already tell them you're goingto do X, Y and Z?
(13:30):
And then I'm like, well, I haveto advise you that you're being
very gracious, or you didn'tnecessarily have to do that.
So you know, I can't stressthat enough.
I know, I know we're in aclimate where people do not.
They're like I want to mediate,I don't want the contentious,
(13:52):
long, litigious process and yourattorney that hears you will
hear you and they will actaccordingly.
But you still need to know allyour options.
And so choosing mediation doesnot mean that you're, that you
are not necessarily choosingmediation.
(14:14):
It just means your yourlitigation.
You're looking at all youroptions.
Yeah, yeah, one, yeah, 100%100%, you're coming up with that
game plan.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, exactly, you're putting your team together,
you're getting educated.
So that's the biggest thing wetalk about all the time.
You just can't bury your headand you've got to spend the time
learning what your statutes arein your jurisdiction.
You need to spend the timegetting up to speed, learning so
that you can speakintelligently to your attorney
(14:47):
about what's going on.
And just like anything, anyprofession there are bad
plumbers, there are bad anythingin any profession You've got to
be somewhat educated in what'sgoing on and be able to talk
intelligently and just don't putblind trust, because we just
put blind trust and that's whenthings go wrong.
(15:09):
And if you just want somebodyto take it off your plate and
handle it for you, that's justnot going to be good.
It's not going to be good foryou, but it's not going to be
good for your kids, right?
That's just not.
It's not going to work out well.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
You have to have somebody you have to have
somebody Exactly.
You have to have some buy-in.
You have to have some buy-in,exactly, and your attorney has
to learn what kind of parent youare and what kind of.
You know what are your goals.
You know what does that looklike.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
So it's going over all of that.
So back to the two-partyconsent.
So two-party consent is whenboth people must agree to being
recorded for it to be somethingthat is admissible in court,
correct?
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You potentially could .
I don't want to say that itwill be admissible, but that's
like the first threshold, youknow, was there permission on
both parties?
Speaker 1 (15:59):
If there's not permission on both parties, then
you may have a challengegetting it introduced into
evidence Right and then withsingle-party consent, just means
that you can recordconversations or videos whenever
, wherever you want andpotentially they can, and
(16:19):
there's just a higherprobability that those can still
also be admissible in court asevidence Right.
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
But before I would want to go over the facts
surrounding the reporting youknow, because sometimes clients
will be like, oh, I have thisand I'm like, how'd you get that
?
You know so you have to go intoand what does it show?
Sometimes it's telling clientsearly on like don't you know,
(16:47):
don't do that or don't send that, and sometimes you know they
feel bad because they don't know.
You know people don't know itgoes.
People don't know what theydon't know.
But that's why it's importantthat we educate them and advise
them accordingly.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Right, and so would you say, in those jurisdictions
where it is only single partyconsent, that you really need to
prepare yourself and go throughthe thought process of there is
a probability that I am goingto be recorded at any point
during this process.
I need to either be aware onebe aware of that, but two
(17:30):
perhaps take steps myself inorder to be doing that as well.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
I agree with you.
Okay, and, just from anattorney's perspective, share
why that is important forsomebody that is starting this
process.
Because, like you and Imentioned, you and I discussed
(17:53):
the majority of men are servedright, and so inevitably when
I'm talking to guys about this,they're just, they're so far
behind in their thought processthis doesn't even show up on the
radar.
And then when I say, hey, thisis something you need to pay,
they're like seriously, mybeautiful bride that I love so
much, you know however manyyears and I had this many kids
they're like would they ever dothat to me?
Like, and if the answer is yes,hell yes, and you really need
(18:14):
to start paying attention.
Why?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
and a part of you know this goes back in preparing
for us to have thisconversation.
I thought about it.
You know some people just theyexpect the good out of others,
right?
And my job is not just to beokay, yes, yes, yes.
Say yes to my client, right,that's not even a word.
(18:39):
Yes, but not to always just sayyes, you're absolutely correct.
Part of my job is to advise theclient and advise them on where
the pitfalls are, where couldyou be at risk exposure?
And so a part of that is havingthat discussion.
If you have a spouse that feelsemboldened by, I got your
(19:04):
moments you need to be preparedto think, okay, this could be
recorded.
I also think, in the year of2025, where everyone has a cell
phone and everyone is recording,you should be thinking that way
anyway, whether you're in a twoparty consent or one party
consent state, you should bethinking litigation is going on
(19:28):
or settlement discussions arehappening.
I need to, I need to cross myT's and dot my I's, because
someone is watching whateverthis person has said or is
(19:49):
trying to frame as theirstrategy.
That should always be in theforefront of your mind, like how
can I make sure that I and Ialways tell my clients you know
we're going to fly high, right?
Because with recording,sometimes judges, the feedback
that I have gotten is like okay,is this a petty moment?
You know, are you now trying to.
I gotcha, or you didn't do this,or you didn't pack Sally or
(20:12):
Johnny's snack, or look at thispicture of molded food, If I can
tell you how many pictures ofmolded food or videos of molded
food is, and I'm like okay, andclients think, oh, here's the
fiery gun.
You know I've got a video oflunch.
Maybe they didn't read theexpiration marks or maybe they
(20:33):
didn't.
They got it wrong.
You know, is that a recordingthat you want to risk when
balancing out what will benefityour case versus harm your case
out what will benefit your caseversus harm your case?
You need to have an attorneythat you can have that
conversation Because while youmay think it's your smoking gun,
a court may look at this andsay, okay, this surveillance,
(20:55):
you're going in my petty box andno judge will say, well, some
depends on who you're before.
May say like, okay, howrelevant is that, ms Douglas?
And you don't want thathappening.
You want to put on a case whereonly your relevant items, the
evidence, is being presented tocourt.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Right, and you mentioned flying high or taking
the high road and I wanted tomake the comment which you can
still make sure that you'reprotecting yourself and your
children by, especially in theone party consent states, by
doing the recordings and stilltake the high road.
It's just insurance, to makesure, and I can't tell you the
(21:42):
number of times and I'veexperienced this myself
personally with not havingsomething recorded where I
probably should have because Iknew better, and then also
having recordings that it reallysaved my butt and the thousands
of other guys that I've talkedto and many that have had these.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Let's talk about that a bit that have had these.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
So I represented um, a, anathlete, um, uh, a well-known
athlete in the past, and one ofthe one of the things that he
used to do was record because it, you know, if there was a, an I
gotcha moment, it would be verycostly for him to be in an I
(22:28):
gotcha moment.
And so, you know, part of ourstrategy was OK, you need to
always be in public when you dothese exchanges.
You want to have someone in thecar with you, not just having
the camera rolling, but alsohave that independent third
(22:48):
party with you to be able toobserve and protect you.
So in that situation, he wasable to be able to always do
that.
But, yeah, we were successfulon getting a protective order
(23:09):
denied because of that footage,because we took those steps.
But that came from I learned, Ilearned about his significant
other very well, like we hadlike OK, I, you know, she's
asking me to meet here.
What should I do?
And I'm there, play by play, tosay, ok, this is what you
should do.
All right, send it to me.
What do we got?
And the court was in thatsituation.
(23:29):
The court was very upset withthe opposing party because it's
like your petition is notmatching up to what this video
you know is saying.
So you do have those incidenceswhere sometimes having the
recording is helpful, especiallyif it's in a public place in
court in having the evidence andbeing able to utilize it as
(23:52):
refuting maybe some falseallegations like you just
(24:14):
described.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Is it still beneficial if you are in a
two-party, Because there's likea fine line right If you are
recording, it's a two-partyconsent.
It might not be admissible incourt, but maybe it is possible
to utilize that in refuting afalse allegation from somebody
that is using that in thecontext of a custody case.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
So what you are and I want to make sure that I hear
you completely so what you are,and I want to make sure that I
hear you completely.
I think what you're asking isabout impeachment, what we call
impeaching a witness.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Where a witness may get on the stand and say, no, I
wasn't at Safeway to exchangethe children and he showed up
there by himself and I don'tknow what happened, or something
like that, and you're trying toshow that, no, you were at
Safeway.
Here's this video showing youwere at, you know, Safeway.
(25:12):
I would say, in that incident,in that scenario, again, I would
have to it's fact specific.
You know I'm making up thesefacts as we go on.
But if it's, if, if they'retrying to say like my client
showed up with a baseball batand was like hitting her or
doing something like that, thatcould be helpful, Um, and the
(25:34):
impeach part against hertestimony, we may could use that
.
Um, I still have to lay thefoundation of how the video came
to be, have it authenticated,where did it come from and what
I may do.
I may end up, instead of usingthe cell phone recording, I may
(25:55):
go and get the recording outsideof the grocery store.
If there's cameras around, Imay go that route.
And then there's tools of.
I don't want to bore you withrules of evidence, but then
there's other rules of evidenceI can use, you know, certificate
, business record.
I can get it in another way.
(26:16):
So part of the I want to makesure I'm answering your question
A part of the issue can be thathow you use the video.
Maybe the video is to say okay,what time did you take this
video?
It happened at 1.52.
All right, let's go Now.
I know exactly where topinpoint to get the video from
somewhere else, In case thevideo that they took in the car,
(26:39):
for some reason, based on therules of evidence, is not
admitted, I wouldn't be able toget it in.
So it really is specific.
Maybe I use it to get anotherpiece of evidence, Maybe I use
it.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
It just really depends, I know people and so no
, yeah, so no, no.
You answered my question and,and, and the question was
because, what, what?
What I experienced and what Ihear a lot is that the dads are
wary of doing that because theyfeel like it's going to cross a
legal line and that they couldget legally in trouble for
(27:12):
recording and then that's goingto look bad for them.
But what I'm thinking aboutwhen advising them and what
we're talking about in thiscontext with the dads that are
listening, that it is justsomething to do exactly what you
described.
Even if it is a two-partyconsent, state or area, then
(27:34):
it's still not a bad idea tohave recordings, less about oh,
I was at the Safeway pickingthem up and more of a false
allegation of abuse to the kidsor something else, where you
just say that just didn't happenand this does happen.
These false allegations dohappen, guys, and some of them
(27:58):
can be mitigated, even in atwo-party consent, by having
some sort of recording.
That is maybe it's notadmissible, but maybe you can do
something.
Your attorney can do somethingelse like you just described
find a public camera or send iteven over and say this just
didn't happen.
So if you're going to pursuethis area, it's probably not a
(28:19):
good idea, et cetera.
It's just again having theability to cover yourself and
have that, even if it's notsomething that can be admissible
in court.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Yeah, and I also.
When you were speaking, Ithought about the situations
what comes to mind is like theDSS case, right of child abuse,
or my spouse is not caring forthe child or they're being
abused.
In those types of situationswhere it's like, okay, well, do
(28:52):
you have a nanny cam?
Are you able to say, look?
Or and it may depend again onthe facts it may involve me
coming in and saying you knowwhat you're making these lofty
allegations?
We're just going to keep thenanny cam rolling.
I just want you to know that,because you've made this an
issue for us, my client and I,this is what we're going to do,
(29:16):
you know.
Then it's like, well, don'tcome saying later.
Well, no, you know, my childdidn't consent or you know you
start like, look, I'm puttingyou on notice, since you're
making these allegations.
I have to protect myself andthis is what I choose to do.
So you know you sometimes dohave to think outside of the box
to protect the client and makesure that they're okay and when
(29:41):
those types of allegations startarising, that especially dads
of girls, right you have dads ofgirls that have represented a
lot of dads of girls and they'rejust like, oh my goodness, I
have to take her to the bathroom.
What do I do?
You know?
And so it's, it's thinkingthrough all the ways that we can
(30:02):
protect the client.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, exactly.
So let's talk a little bit.
Then also, there is adifference between doorbell
cameras, and so this issomething that I did not know
that makes that evidence andthose recordings a little bit
different than, say, if you'rerecording in the exterior or the
interior of your home.
Share a little bit about thosedifference of doorbell cameras,
(30:28):
why they're different and whatcan be.
What is a, what is a goodstandard operating procedure of
how to how to function withthose.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
OK.
So the first thing I want youto think about is the standard
is expectation of privacy.
I want you to think about isthe standard is expectation of
privacy?
Okay, If you have a, a camera,outside of your house?
um and you have neighbors andyou have other uh houses that
are on that street.
What is your, your expectationof privacy?
As far as you know, this is myyard.
(31:01):
I want to keep the flowers, Iwant to mow my yard.
That's a different standardversus.
I have a camera that's on ourgarage and the direction is
towards the street and you seeeveryone driving by.
You see everyone walking by.
I've been successful in gettinginto evidence.
(31:22):
If there is a doorbell camerathat you know, you come up, you
see it, it's in plain view, it'sin plain sight.
The expectation is, it'sworking, you know.
So that expectation of privacyis not the same as maybe you are
having a nanny cam in yourhouse and your ex-spouse comes
(31:48):
over to the house and when youwere married to them you didn't
have the nanny cam, but now youdo.
Well, then it's announced tothem this is being recorded,
this conversation is beingrecorded.
The video and the audio is beingrecorded so that you can cross
over that hurdle of them sayingthe opposing party saying why
(32:11):
expect a privacy in your home?
Because I've never known you tohave a nanny.
There's also been situationswhere I have clients.
They live in an apartment andthey're recording and the voices
are raised and they're yellingor there's other people in the
house.
You can shift that argumentwhere if you're not home alone
(32:32):
and you have guests over in thehouse, what's your expectation
of privacy?
If you're in an apartmentbuilding yelling to the top of
your lungs, what's theexpectation of privacy that
you're not going to be recordedlungs what's the expectation of
privacy that you're not going tobe recorded?
So it is very much factspecific.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So let me ask you this with the doorbell cams and
the exterior cams generally, canyou say that even in two party
consent areas or states thatthat is probably going to be
considered a public area thatdoesn't require two-party
(33:10):
consent, that it's just beingrecorded?
It's being recorded whetherit's both video and audio at any
given time, because I'veactually had clients that have
had this literally save theircustody cases because their ex
was on video cam like completelydenigrating them to the, to the
(33:31):
neighborhood and to neighborswho were coming over and talking
to them, et cetera, and becauseit was outside, it was on the
camera, they were on the frontporch and she was doing all this
stuff.
It was all admissible and so assoon as they started with he's
a bad dad and he's doing thisand we've got all these
witnesses who actually line upwith the video of who they're on
(33:53):
the cam that she's beenbasically coaching on how to
denigrate him.
It ended like immediatelybecause they had it.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I call that the setup right.
You know, you set them, youknow, and then you come in with
your cross-examination, with thevideo of them, you know, acting
irate or whatever the video mayshow, um, and that that that
usually will be successful.
Also, I want to note too, likeif you're recording outside your
(34:25):
kids' extracurricularactivities, you know, you know
if they're at an extracurricularactivity and you want to record
, like the pickup in theexchange, you know, do we have
people coming in and out?
What's the expectation ofprivacy there?
You may be successful ingetting those types of videos in
as well.
And getting those types ofvideos in as well.
I think a public place'sexpectation of privacy is the
(34:48):
standard.
Can you get over that?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Okay.
So essentially we could.
A general good rule of thumb isif it's a public place, then
you're more than likely okay tobe recording something, whether
it's a two-party, one-partyconsent place, because the
expectation isn't there.
There's not the expectation ofprivacy.
So if you're doing pickups anddrop-offs and they're videoing
(35:15):
you or you're videoing them,okay, like I've had guys just
complain about that, that theyget videoed every time and
they're like you know what?
Okay, wear a clown suit orwhatever, make it fun, you're
not doing anything wrong, sodon't worry about it.
It's a public area, that's fine.
It's just going to happen.
I don't know, you don't knowwhat they're, what's in their
mindset or whatever it is, butthat's just a public place and
(35:37):
that's fine.
Is that that's safe to say?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Yes, yes, that's a good assessment.
People also, you know thesocial media, you know you want
to be careful about.
Even though you're like, ok,fine, you're recording me, they
can also say, look, I'm notgiving you permission to record
me.
And if they don't feelcomfortable and they want that
(36:00):
to stop, and there's otheroptions in communication that we
can reach out to opposing partyas if that's happening.
But I think that I think thatit's just important for the
person to know and maybe expresshey, please don't post this on
social media.
(36:20):
Like that's embarrassing, likeit's not in the best interest of
the children to have theirpickups and drop-offs shared on
social media.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, let's talk about that and categorize it
under stupid things not to do.
Right, like don't record stuff.
You're not doing this.
You're not litigating this caseon social media to see which
friends are going to line upwith you, and not doing this.
You're not.
Uh, you're not litigating thiscase on social media to see
which friends are going to lineup with you, and not.
(36:49):
There's absolutely no benefitto to doing something stupid
like recording that and puttingit on and getting getting
feedback or whatever.
Just don't do that.
That's stupid.
No matter if you're right or ifyou're wrong, just don't do it.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
That's, just that's just the short term thrill that
you may feel can easily backfire.
And because the court you mustalways consider that the court
is hearing evidence and they'relooking for who is the parent
that will be able to put theirown feelings aside.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
And even the actions of the other party, even if they
were, you know, wrong, notnecessarily in line with
co-parenting skills, to makedecisions that are best for the
children.
And if you're a, you know, aconstant social media poster
about your co-parenting andthings that are happening and
(37:53):
things that are going on, itjust I have not, I have seen
that it just doesn't go well,you know.
Join a private group, you know,but even in that, you know, we
can, in discovery, ask for yoursocial media postings and
communication.
You know.
Join something off social media, you know.
Maybe ask for your divorcecoach to refer you to a small
(38:17):
group and and vet yourgrievances there.
Don't, don't do it on socialmedia.
It just it makes for a horribleline of questioning Right.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Actually a safe practice would just get off
social media during your divorce.
There's going to be little tono benefit to being on it During
it.
You're going to be tempted todo stupid stuff.
There's all kinds of crappyinformation out there around
divorce, whether it's legaladvice or mental, emotional
(38:50):
advice, et cetera.
Really and that's not a slam onsocial media it's just that you
got enough going on in yourhead.
You got enough going on in yourlife.
Taking that break from socialmedia during that time there's
only good that could come out ofit and there's going to be less
temptation to do super stuffthat's going to then impact your
(39:12):
case, which then is going toimpact your life and your kids'
lives for years and years tocome.
So just think of it that wayTaking a six-month or a year
sabbatical from social media isjust going to help you for 10 or
15 or however many years you'regoing to have going forward
with your kids, because if youscrew up something like that,
it's going to impact your case.
(39:33):
It's going to have a long-termimplication.
So just try to get off it and,like you said, join the Divorced
Advocate community or find ameetup group or a church group,
support group or 12-step group,if there's something like
Codependence, anonymous orsomething like that, where you
can then get the not only beable to share your grievances
(39:54):
and talk through things, but getsome help and support around
that, because if your firstinstinct is to go to social
media and post something, youprobably have some deeper issues
you need to be working on.
So that's great advice and someof it may not even be
intentional.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I want to put this warning there.
You know they may.
You know you may not be saying,oh, she upset me so bad.
Today I'm going to air out onsocial media what's happening.
That may not be yourintentional thought, but it
could be a simple inbox thishappened to a client about.
There was a simple inbox whereit's like you know, I heard you
(40:29):
did this to your wife and dotdot dot.
You know it's a bait and don'ttake the bait.
You know, because then you getinto discussing and then it can
be used not for your benefit,but to say, oh, did you know
your husband is on, you know,inboxing and saying all kinds of
horrible things about you.
(40:50):
So I want to put that out there.
We're not saying you're bad.
We're not saying that you'regoing to intentionally do
something wrong, but it couldjust be used against you and not
helpful.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Right, you and not helpful.
Right, and that's a great point,too, that we should also
mention around in the context ofwhat we talked about in the
beginning, which is you shouldjust have the expectation that
you're likely being recordedsomehow audio, video or whatever
.
And this, especially important,if you're still cohabitating,
(41:23):
right, sharing a same space isyou got to be Ward Cleaver,
basically and that mightactually be a reference for some
of you younger folks listeningthat don't know who Ward Cleaver
is you basically need to betowing the line all the time.
Don't get into, don't be baited, don't get into the arguments,
definitely don't get into anyphysical and just make sure to
(41:45):
walk away from anything thatcould be perceived or that is
something that is going to bebrought into court or shared
with the other side, and that'sseriously even just arguments.
Right, you just want to avoidany and all of that and step
away.
And if you need to have a thirdparty, like your attorney or
(42:08):
your therapist or a familytherapist if you guys are in
that context, deal with it Thendo that.
Do not get involved to where itescalates to where it's going
to be on recording.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Right.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Agreed.
Okay, good, that's all I needAgreed from the expert that's
going to have to deal with theaftermath of figuring this out
if you don't heed this advice.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
That's correct.
Speaker 1 (42:36):
Okay, steps to the dads that maybe have just been
served recently, are startingthis process and they're maybe
(42:58):
still cohabitating like Idescribed and they want to make
sure that they're taking some ofthese first important steps.
What would those be?
In particular, around therecording, things to be aware of
, like the surveillance.
What should they do?
What shouldn't they do Some ofthese first steps?
Speaker 2 (43:13):
So one of the first steps, of course, I would say,
is start interviewing forattorneys.
(43:36):
Right, talk to people who havewent through a divorce.
Know what your communication?
Okay, but you know if you ifyou you may not fully know, I
should say, but as far as howfrequently you would want to
speak to your attorney, but youknow, if you want to speak to
your attorney every day, justbecause that may be calming and
soothing and may be expensive,but you know calming and
soothing, then know that so thatyou can articulate that to the
(43:59):
attorney that you'reinterviewing.
You know, know the questions toask.
Know yourself, right, knowyourself.
Talk about expectations.
What are the expectations?
What is the process?
What's the steps of litigationor mediation?
What does the steps look like?
(44:22):
To choose a mediator?
You know, is that attorneyfamiliar with working with a
different array of mediators?
But number one I want to alsosay, so this is one A, I would
say Don't feel pressured tomatch the, feel compelled,
(44:48):
without the advice of yourattorney, to feel like you have
(45:10):
to do the same.
Less is more, less is moresometimes.
And so sometimes, being theparent, that's not always having
the cell phone out and reallytaking the time to enjoy time
with your children and focus onthem.
A court will appreciate thatright.
(45:31):
So don't let the smart techshouldn't replace the smart
parenting skills being attentive, being in your children's world
, knowing what they need andmeeting those needs and then
communicating what those needsare to your co-parent.
That will carry a lot of weightwith the board.
(45:57):
While your spouse is over hererecording every interaction,
you're sending an email to talkabout Kate and Samantha's
homework or summer camp, or howthey did in the new activity or
the new sports teams.
If you could fill yourcommunication with those types
(46:20):
of examples, it demonstratesyour ability to what I call be
outside of the petty box, right.
So I think that that those aretwo things that I would really
stress to your to your dads andtrust.
(46:58):
If you decided on an attorney,trust and talk strategy.
You should not just be talkingabout all right, on June 30th,
we have to do this and do that.
What is the long-term goal?
I think clients communicatingto them the why helps them with
the investment in the process.
Right, if I know why I'mtelling you to say this or do
this and how this will make abeautiful exhibit it helps them
to be like OK, let me do itright now.
So those are tips I would.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
OK, that's good, and I think that kind of takes us
full circle from what we weretalking about earlier, which is
you can still take the high roadright Everything that you just
described with still workingeffectively with your soon-to-be
ex and starting that process ofco-parenting effectively, but
still also keeping in the backof your mind you want to prepare
(47:42):
for the worst.
So maybe that is that you aregoing to install a nanny cam if
there's a single party consent,and you're just going to have it
running all the time, just incase something's going to happen
, or you put that doorbell camup so that you've got that going
.
But that's not your focus.
Again, you're planning for theworst, worst and you're hoping
(48:04):
for the best.
You're going to your attorney,you're finding an attorney,
you're making sure what you'redoing and how you're
communicating is the mosteffective way for your case.
Hopefully you're finding someoutside support around what you
said, because if they're goingto be using you for therapy,
that's going to be reallyexpensive.
And so go find a divorce coachright, which I highly recommend
(48:27):
for everybody and anybody allthe time anymore going through
this.
It's enough of an establishedindustry where there are good
divorce coaches that are goingto help you and it's going to be
well worth your money.
Because if you're using Sandraas your therapist and your
attorney, I mean that's great.
She don't want to do that, butit's going to be a buttload of
billable hours and so you'regoing to save some money by not
(48:51):
doing that and find a coach,find a therapist and do that and
put your team together, butyou'll have Sandra and your
attorney that's going to helpyou through this process, going
to help you talk about what youshould be, what could be working
If there is something thatcomes up.
You've just got yourselfcovered.
You're still walking that highroad, but you're still preparing
(49:12):
for the worst case scenario.
Sound good?
Speaker 2 (49:15):
Yes, and my role in the band, as I call it, or the
team, is to strategize the caseand execute Right.
It's to strategize the case andexecute right.
You, if you're having a veryhard time, an emotional time,
you need that support.
And I tell my clients that'slike one of my first intake
questions Do you have atherapist that you're working
with or would?
(49:36):
you like for a recommendation,because if you don't have that,
you can't necessarily be yourbest self to show up, and we
need that, your kids need that.
Forget about your attorney.
You need that, your childrendeserve it and you deserve it.
And so you still have to parent.
Through this right, you'restill creating memory, you're
(49:58):
still doing all the things thatneed to be done as a parent with
this added layer.
So just having that system inplace, and then sometimes the
children need therapy, so it's,you know, everybody being on the
same page to move forward.
Speaker 1 (50:15):
Yeah and maybe this is a whole nother topic and
maybe another podcast episode wecan get together and talk about
how they prepare strategy, howthey're actually leading the
strategy in working inconjunction with you, because
you have a limited amount oftime for you to work on their
case, but they know the fullbreadth of everything that's
(50:35):
happening.
So they're the ones that have tostart working on the strategy.
Talk about what that is withyou in the context of legalities
and then go forward with that,because I see this all the time.
Talk about what that is withyou in the context of legalities
and then go forward with that,Because I see this all the time,
which is these guys leave thestrategy just to the attorney
and the attorney.
I mean, that's like workingwith just a partial
(50:57):
understanding of everythingthat's going on.
You don't know everythingthat's going on, so that's their
job to figure that out, toconvey that to you, to prepare
all of that, and then we'recollaboratively with you in
implementing that.
So maybe I'll have you back onand we can talk about that.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Because we could spend quite a bit of time
talking about what that lookslike.
How does the attorney clientrelationship, what it looks like
right, what it looks like toknow, your options.
I tell my clients I'm the one onthe bus with you when I tell
you all the different directionsand possibility possible routes
(51:40):
, mediation being one of theroutes but technically you are
in the driver's seat.
You can say, oh, sandra, that'sa little too aggressive.
How about if and this is what Ido day in, day out how about if
we started this step and seewhat their response?
And I will role play with myclients and I'm like okay, we
started step one, but if theyreact this way, or if this is
(52:02):
the response, I'm telling you weneed to heed to this sign, and
this is a sign that we may needto pivot and go this route.
So, yeah, I would love to.
Because we could talk about thatall day yeah yeah.
Come back and talk about whatthat looks like, because I think
sometimes people don't know andso they don't know what to
(52:24):
expect and they just leave it tothe attorney to just Yep,
exactly, and there's differentstyles.
There's different work styles,and so it's knowing what works
for you.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Okay, great.
Well, we'll leave that as ateaser for the dads listening in
the future that we're going tocome back and we're going to
talk about that in a futureepisode, because I think that
would be very beneficial.
So, to the listeners, sandra,that are in the Maryland area
that might want to connect withyou, what is the best way for
them to do that?
Speaker 2 (52:56):
Wonderful.
Yes, If you have a matter inthe DMV area and I will say, at
Steins Burling, we are a fullservice law firm so we can help
you with other matters as well,my phone number is 301-838-3274,
or feel free to send me anemail at sdouglas, that's
Douglas with one S atsteinsperlingcom.
(53:18):
Thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed myself.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, fantastic conversation.
I sincerely appreciate the factthat you share all these pearls
of wisdom on a very sensitivetopic, but a really, really
important topic that can trulyturn the tide of, like we said,
like decades of what happenswith the future of your family,
(53:43):
depending on what you do or youdon't do.
So, thank you and anybodylistening.
If you found some value in this, please share it far and wide
on social media.
Leave us a star rating, leave acomment about this, connect
with Sandra, connect with thecommunity.
That's why we're here.
But, sandra, thank you so much.
I sincerely appreciate youbeing on here.
Speaker 2 (54:04):
Thank you, my pleasure.
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