July 14, 2025 • 46 mins
Ben Schooley, founder of The Pro Se Coach, pulls back the curtain on self-representation in divorce court, revealing insights from his journey through both an amicable split and a brutal four-year legal battle. His candid discussion transforms our understanding of what's possible when facing the family court system without an attorney.
Ben's website: https://prosecoachtx.com/
Join our Signal Channel: https://shorturl.at/8yqTb
Join The Divorce Dadvocate Membership Community - FULL Episodes - Live Meetings – FREE Workshops & Courses – Private Discussion Groups & MORE! - https://thedivorceddadvocate.com/membership-tiers/
How Are You Adjusting To Your Divorce? Find out in this quiz - http://www.thedivorceddadvocate.com/divorce-quiz.html
*FREE Dads Guide To Divorce* How to survive and thrive during and after divorce: http://www.dadsguidetodivorce.com
Don't suffer in silence! Get relief from the pain and confusion of your divorce and schedule your FREE, No Obligation Coaching Consultation - schedule a time directly into my schedule at www.TalkWithJude.com.
Join other divorced dads who have experienced or are experiencing divorce in this FREE Divorced Dads Online Meetup Group - https://www.meetup.com/Divorced-Dads-Meetup-Group/
Other Resources:
The Divorced Dadvocate Website - http://www.TheDivorcedDadvocate.com
The Divorced Dadvocate YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeSwx-F8KK4&list=PLT4HyN5ishYJznK51205ESxGZ2d19YkBp
The Divorced Dadvocate Podcast - https://thedivorceddadvocate.buzzsprout.com/
Divorced Dads Online Meetup Group - https://www.meetup.com/Divorced-Dads-Meetup-Group/
The Divorced Dadvocate Facebook Group - https://www.facebook.com/thedivorceddadvocate/
Music credit: Akira the Don
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week.
I sincerely appreciate it.
We've got an incredible episodeahead and an expert that is
tremendous.
Something that we haven'ttalked too much about, probably
at all in the five years thatwe've been together, but I think
it's an important topic for us,and that's about being pro se,
(00:24):
which is representing yourselfduring this divorce process.
Before we jump in, though, justa reminder to check out the
Divorced Advocate website atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
All kinds of resources for youwherever you're at in your
divorce, wherever you're atfinancially, from free to paid
resources.
Check out the divorce quiz,another opportunity to gauge
(00:46):
where you're at in your divorcecompared to thousands of others
that have gone through it.
So check it out at the divorceadvocatecom.
Get the help that you need andthat you deserve.
Okay, my guest, after his firstdivorce, had 50, 50 parenting
time of his two kids.
That was all the way since 2006.
He enjoyed a wonderfulrelationship with their mother,
(01:09):
never went to court, and lifewas as good as it could be for a
single dad.
But then his second marriagefailed after having his third
child, and what followed was aneducation he never wanted.
Dozens of hearings, countlessmotions, hours upon hours of
case law research, argumentpreparation and strategy
(01:29):
formation.
The four-year education wasintense and he came out the
other side a rather shatteredindividual.
However, he also discoveredvery quickly that he had
accumulated information andknowledge that is overwhelmingly
valuable to those unluckyenough to be on the same
adventure he was on.
That's a nice way to describe itas an adventure.
(01:50):
This led him to found the ProSe coach.
Please welcome, ben Schooley.
Ben welcome, thanks, miriam.
Hey, yeah, so adventure is anice way to describe this right.
Yeah, so adventure is a niceway to describe this right Going
(02:16):
on a divorce and you've been ontwo of them, so you're twice as
educated as I and some of therest of us are.
But start off by just sharing alittle bit about why you
decided then to get into pro secoaching, and maybe you can
describe what pro se is and whatpro se coaching is in that as
well.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Sure, I guess 18 years ago I had no idea what the
word pro se meant.
I married my high schoolsweetheart.
We had two kids, really young,and you know we had no business
being married, and so that endedquickly.
And then you know we had nobusiness being married, and so
that ended quickly.
Um, and then you know theactual process.
I gosh, I think we weredivorced in 90 days and you know
we did 50, 50, no support.
(02:54):
We were in our mid twenties, wewere both broke as hell and off
she went and off I went, and wejust did seven days, seven off.
And I tell you what I give hercredit to this day.
Um, when we split, our youngestwas six months old and she was
nursing him and she would bringme breast milk every day that he
was with me and I tell you whatat the time I was like I didn't
(03:15):
appreciate it as much as Iappreciate now to understand
just how quite how rare that wasfor her to do that for me.
And so, anyway, we moved on.
I ultimately remarried, and,you know, still doing 50, 50
with the young, with the oldertwo, that X ultimately moved to
the end of my street even, andso the kids just came and went
whenever they wanted, you know,and so they just kind of did
(03:35):
whatever.
But yeah, anyway, the secondone broke down and and I filed
for divorce there, and I enteredthat really naively because I
simply told her, I mean, I knewshe wanted out too, and so I
just said, well, this will besuper easy.
I said I tell you what.
You take everything we own andwe'll just put our son on the
same schedule as brother andsister Done, you can have
(03:56):
anything you want.
You know, that was my, that wasmy deal, but that didn't work
out.
And so four years of goingthrough that, yeah.
And so four years of goingthrough that and, yeah, more
hearings than I could possiblyeven count.
The stack of paper I have, it'salmost four feet tall, it's in
my closet waiting for that childif he ever wants to see it.
But I have not seen him now inalmost four years.
(04:17):
The other two I still talk tothey're 22 and 19 now, so you
know they aged out.
But yeah, my youngest is 15.
And he's been told andconvinced that the reason I
don't come around is my faultand that I don't want to.
And anyway, I went through allof those hearings and all of
that on my own.
I was in a small town that Igrew up in.
(04:38):
I felt like I could handle itand I was completely blind to
the process and just went in,put my football helmet in and
just started crashing throughwhatever I needed to crash
through.
So, you know, I got laughed outof court more times than I
could count and I went home andI redid whatever it was.
I did wrong and refiled it andwent back and did it again and
yeah, and so when I got out ofit, out of that whole journey
(05:02):
again to my point about beingsmall town lots of people knew I
went through a really long,nasty divorce and so I couldn't
go out to have a bite of dinnerat night without three people
stopping and asking me divorcequestions, and I found that I
knew most of the answers and soI started saying like well, you
know you want to file this anddon't forget that and make sure
you include that.
And they'd say, well, she spentthat year Thanks a bunch, bud.
(05:25):
And at the time I owned alittle company and so I was
still plugging away at that.
But I just discovered that moreand more and more of my time
was spent, you know, in Facebookgroups and other people
starting to come toward me justasking questions and asking
questions.
And the next thing I know I'mdoing this like five hours a day
.
Okay, so my, my real jobstarted suffering really bad,
but I see this just like tidalwave of people just start.
(05:48):
I start.
Next thing, I know I'm talkingseven days a week, eight hours a
day, with all these people.
I don't even know them, um, so,anyway, that's where pro se
coach came from, and so Iincorporated that name and fired
this up and I had no idea whatwould happen.
I still had my little companyand, uh, I got my first student.
His name was wonderfully namedBen, and I walked through that
(06:08):
with him and I was just talkingabout Ben the other day because
he was my very first student andwe got him really close to
50-50 and he settled and this isgoing on.
Probably five years ago andabout two, three weeks ago,
somebody sent me a message andit was his obituary and he
killed himself and his ex flaredup several years later and he
(06:30):
was having none of it and I justshare that to say this is a
really not enjoyable process andit's hard in a variety of ways
and, most importantly, it'sintimidating as hell because
your children are on the line,your finances are on the line
and, frankly, beyond that,beyond your own health, there's
not anything else really thatmuch important and your health
(06:54):
is the other thing that's goingto can potentially begin to be
impacted.
You know I went to the hospitalfour times, going through those
four years with gigantic panicattacks that I'd never
experienced before.
I'm six foot two.
I weigh about 210.
At the time, when I got done, Iweighed 162 pounds.
I was a walking skeleton andI'm a guy who would have said I
(07:14):
went through it all right.
But to look back, you know, infact that's how my whole journey
actually stopped is that mymother called me?
I was standing in the garageand she called me.
You know I'm in year four ofthis.
I weigh 160 pounds and I hadrecently, at that time, lost my
brother my younger brothercancer, and she called and she
said I watched your brother dieand I'm watching you die, so
(07:36):
you're done, we're stopping now.
So you're, you're, you'rewaving the flag, buddy.
And so I did, and anyway.
But that propelled me into thispro state coach was born.
And then, you know, withinabout six months I sold my
little company I have, and sothis is all I do now, full time.
I love doing it.
It's really hard job.
You know, jude, I know you talkto a lot of people too.
(07:58):
It's a very draining job therecan be, because it's a nasty
topic to talk about all damn day.
You know it's drama and it'shurt and it's tears and it's
fear and and it's all day.
And you know, and I'msympathetic to people because
they blow me up on july the 4thwith 26 text messages because
they're freaking out aboutsomething.
(08:19):
And you know, some part of mecould be like man, leave me
alone.
It's July the 4th.
But then I think back to my ownjourney.
I know, if I had, if I knew ofa guy like me, I'd have blown
him up too.
You know, because my head is inthe clouds, I don't even know
what day it is, much less toeven be respectful of your time.
I'm not trying to bedisrespectful, I'm freaking out
and so, but I do.
(08:39):
But I do, I'm very passionateabout it.
I argue with God a lot aboutthis.
I get very angry about itbecause I can't believe I went
through what I went through sothat I could help this guy over
here.
You know, I got to go throughall that, so I wish I didn't
know what.
I know I wish I had a differentjob, but I'm glad for the one I
got, that.
I'm really, really passionateabout this and I feel very
(09:02):
strongly that if you'reconsidering being pro se, the
first thing you have to get overis fear, because I know you're
intimidated by the process, butI swear on all that's holy Once
you see a peek behind thecurtain um, it is crayon, simple
.
Um, it is not difficult.
(09:24):
Um, but it's intimidating.
And so once you can get pastthe you know the the complexity,
objection, you're on your way,cause from there, you, you learn
really quick that you canweaponize the court system, not
in a way to like punish your exor like do awful things to this
person, but rather almost as afinancial sword, that you know.
I mean it's a gross way tothink about it, but, frankly,
(09:44):
every divorce attorney anywherewill tell you the first person
that runs out of money losesRight.
And so, as a as a proficientpro se person, I can bleed you
out so fast and make your headspin.
You know, I mean we laugh aboutit all the time when I teach
people how to do discovery andthey go really, that's all
discovery is.
It's that simple, you know ittakes us 45 minutes on a phone
(10:05):
call and I can say, yeah, but Iswear this is going to cost your
ex, I don't know, eight grandto deal with that and
potentially emotion, that compeland a little hearing.
I mean it's crazy amounts ofmoney.
And so I always I use courts aslike I try I tell people I
don't like going to court overimportant things.
I don't want to go to court anddeal with kids and possession
access If I can avoid it.
(10:25):
I understand that that'sunavoidable frequently, but I do
like going to court over thingsthat don't matter.
Discovery, you know,enforcements, these types of
things.
Let's go all day every day andso those are.
Those are good.
But yeah, I mean, that's kindof a crash course in who I am
and how I got here.
I'm pushing 50 now.
(10:47):
I just moved to central Texasfrom a little bit more south
from the hill country and then,yeah, my 22 and 19 year old.
My 22 year old is in Sweden now.
I haven't talked to her in agood while.
My 19-year-old was in ahumongous car crash in May when
he was living with me and he wasin the hospital for almost six
weeks and when he got out heonce said I want to go back to
mom's house.
I think mom's a better nursethan I am, so he went to mom's
but he's doing well.
(11:07):
But yeah, the 15-year-old I donot see.
So I was just thinking abouttoday.
He plays football.
So football is going to fire uphere at the end of August.
So I guess those are myopportunities.
I get to actually lay eyes onkids.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So I'm looking forward to that.
So I want to get into and talkmaybe a little bit about that.
I did want to make one point,though.
So I find it very interestingthat you've had both experiences
with an ex right An ex that'sabsolutely tremendous that sees
the value in their father beinginvolved in their children's
lives, did something like youdescribed which was way above
(11:43):
and beyond.
And then another one who's, I'massuming, probably alienating or
doing at least not facilitatingthe process for the kids.
Facilitating the process for thekids and I point that out
because we get all kinds of dadsthat come to the community, and
(12:03):
oftentimes the dads that cometo the community that don't have
a high conflict start to getscared around things, and
because there's a higherpercentage of dads that come to
the community really looking forhelp because they're struggling
, they might be alienating, theymay not have seen their kids
for a long time, they're runningout of money, whatever it might
(12:24):
be.
And then the other dads are likeoh geez, oh geez, which is not
a bad thing to be prepared tohear some of these worst case
stories, because what we alwayssay is prepare for the worst and
hope for the best, right.
But I just wanted to point outthat mentally, emotionally
healthy people see the value inboth parents being involved in
(12:47):
their children's lives and willmake an effort to make that
happen.
And so if you need a litmustest for whether or not that
person that you're ending therelationship and the marriage
with is not stable mentally,emotionally stable, might have a
personal disorder, et cetera ifthey're not doing everything
(13:10):
they can to facilitate that,then that is your red flag where
you need to be paying attentionto what's going on.
Huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yes, yes.
When you re-enter the datingworld and you find the date who
begins with oh yeah, dad nevercomes around because he's the
biggest loser, you probably needto tap the brakes just a smidge
.
It was funny in my 20s after myfirst ex and I split.
I didn't know if I was supposedto feel guilty about it or what
, because I had several friendsthat actually broke up too with
(13:40):
the explanation of well, ben andAllie have done OK, let's just
do it like they did, and it'slike OK, well, it's as ideal as
it can be.
But certainly, man, if you'regoing to get married, boy, you
get married to be married, don'tyou know?
Don't be getting married tohave kids and then break up.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
That's certainly not the way to spin it.
Definitely, yeah, ideally.
And my point being is becauseoftentimes and I know this was
my case in going through thedivorce process was oh, I fell
in love with this person.
I don't want to destroy thisperson, but if they're acting
poorly, which is the red flag ofnot facilitating time together
(14:21):
or doing other things, then youneed to pay attention to that,
because that is going to be ared flag and that is going to
help you to understand kind ofthe course you're going to be
taking, Like can you get thisdone amicably, pro se, maybe
with a mediator, maybe with acollaborative divorce, et cetera
, or do you need to really startpreparing for the worst and
(14:43):
then hoping that they comearound?
So I just wanted to make thatpoint.
That's pretty huge Now youpointed out.
I think it was very interestingthat you pointed out that you'd
like to go to court for theselittle things because it's very,
very expensive, but not for thebig things.
Let's dive a little bit moreinto that in the contract of pro
(15:07):
se what pro se is and why thatis beneficial and then also tie
that into talking about peekingbehind the curtain.
You said that it's not rocketscience.
These attorneys go to school tolearn all this case law, et
cetera.
Really, what they've learned isthe process right, so take us
(15:29):
through that a little bit Sure.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, a few things about just kind of how I work
too.
You know, the people that findme the earlier in their process
I tend to be able to work alittle bit better with, just
because you know you find me ayear into the process.
There's a lot of things that'salready happened.
That may or may not have beenideal, yeah, but I suppose, like
my process is a little bitdifferent than many people, I
guess, that call themselvesdivorce coaches or other things
that at least I've stumbledacross.
(15:52):
Here in the state of Texasthere's a committee called the
Unauthorized Practice of LawCommittee and they run around
trying to find guys like me thatare jump over the line, which
I'm extremely careful about.
I cannot give legal advice, Icannot tell you what to do.
I cannot.
You know there's a lot of no'sI cannot do, but one caveat that
they included was that, orexcluded, I should say is that
(16:14):
there's nothing blocking youfrom sharing any sort of motion
template or any other form ofdocumentation that you need for
court.
So the first misconception mostpeople bring me is can I do
this thing, whatever it is,without an attorney?
And the answer, 100% of thetime, is yes, there is nothing
an attorney can do that youcannot do.
So sometimes there's anadditional step or two, like,
(16:34):
for example, subpoenas Pro se.
People do not have subpoenapower, at least in Texas, so you
have to go through the court,which all that means you have to
fill out a one page form.
Ok, done, cost $60.
But it's not hard, but anyway,yeah.
So when I try to get a hold ofpeople, it's, it's, it's.
I try to get people reallyrational.
Try to get a hold of people.
(16:55):
It's, it's, it's.
I try to get people reallyrational.
I mean, just like you say that,um, you know when you meet
people and how they treat theirex and other things, the red
flag.
It's also a red flag for me,because you know what are you
really about?
Here?
I work almost equally 50 50 withmoms and dads, which was a huge
surprise to me.
When I got started I thought itwould all be 90% guys.
I don't know why.
I thought that.
I just figured they were alwaysthe ones getting rolled.
(17:15):
But man, I tell you there's alot of women out there that get
smoked by this industry as well.
But anyway, we try to figure out.
Is it really all about kids?
And of course everybody says,yes, okay, I get that.
But then how much of it isactually about money?
And that gets a little touchierbecause people don't want to
admit to me that, look, I can'tpay this freaking child support.
(17:36):
Or, ben, look, I really needthe child support.
All right, whatever you.
But you got to get honest withme because I got to know where
you're at.
And then okay, and then let'sfire up this party.
Whether we're doing the filingfor divorce or the modification
or whatever it is, I'm going toshare the template with you.
We're going to talk throughthat.
I utilize a lot of video coursesas well to kind of help
expedite explanations and otherthings.
(17:56):
But strategically, what Itypically do is let's say, jude
calls and Jude says, man, I'm onthe regular old every other
weekend.
Deal, this sucks, I want tomove to 50-50.
Frequently I'm not sayinguniversally, but frequently what
we'll do is we'll say, allright, let's fire this party up
and he will actually file andrequest to be primary and flop
the entire thing and put mom onevery other weekend, all right.
(18:19):
This is obviously veryexplosive in terms of the filing
and the response from the otherparty, but our intention isn't
actually to you know, to endwith what we asked for.
It's asking for one hundred andtwenty 125% so that we're
willing to be talked back towhere we want.
And I tell you what I don't careif you file that on your ex and
(18:41):
she laughs at you and flips youthe bird and says I'm going to
kick your butt in court.
That's all normal.
I promise you she is up at notworrying about this because you
know, because there's this reallike, even if it's a 5% chance,
she's got to sit there and thinklike holy crap, man, what if
that really happened and I lostall the child support and I'm
going to owe him child supportand I'm going to see the kids
every other weekend Wow, I'mstressed, all right, and then,
(19:04):
yeah, and then we use the systemto just continue to push this
through as hard as we can.
I always use the phrase liftback a dump truck up to her
attorney's office and just startshoveling it out, whatever.
So you asked about like behindthe curtain, and you know simple
things.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I do.
Let me just clarify.
So you're so.
What you're saying is that,from a from a standpoint and a
tactic of negotiation, you arestarting with something that is
much more extreme than actuallyprobably what is going to be the
ultimate.
That is much more extreme thanactually, probably what is going
to be the ultimate ruling orthe ultimate agreement that each
of the parties comes to.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, because see if I'm going to go to mediation.
Okay, first of all, I don'tever like to go to a final trial
ever.
That's terrifying to me to giveone person that much power over
a very long period of your lifewith a guy who doesn't even know
your kid's name.
So I don't ever want to go tofinal.
That's why I say I do not likegoing to court over important
things.
But if I'm going to go intomediation against my ex and the
(20:04):
only thing I'm asked for is50-50 in my plea, it takes two
seconds to get me back to 47-53.
And nothing really changes.
Yeah, maybe you got an extraovernight, but we're not
dramatically shifting the power,the balance of power.
If I'm going into that roomsaying, ok, offer number one is
I'm primary and you're paying mesupport.
(20:25):
I know she's going to laugh meout of the room, but maybe, just
maybe, that counteroffer issomething I can somehow arm
wrestle to get really close tothat 50-50 that I was seeking to
begin with.
And so, yeah, this is basicnegotiation right, I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
These are basic negotiation skills that are
taught.
When you do negotiating, or ifyou're in some kind of field
where you negotiate for a living, which is ask for more, come to
where you can feel comfortablewith and decide right.
So that makes perfect sense.
Now let me ask you this, thoughso when you might see somebody
(21:04):
that is on the other side, thatis coming with some ridiculous
stuff, do you do the same thing,which is come back with your
ridiculous stuff?
Because what I see guys doingoftentimes and we get a lot of
guys to the community that arecapitulating they may have been
codependent in theirrelationship, and so they're
(21:25):
used to uh saying yes or alwaysagreeing to things, and uh, and
and being the yes man, andthat's probably one of the
reasons why the relationshipsend.
I know that that was a part ofmy challenge as well, and then,
when they start getting intothis, it's really really hard
for them to be like yeah, whatare you talking about?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I'm asking for a hundred percent.
So, yeah, that's a big point.
When I talk to people for thefirst time and you know they'll
tell me something that they'reirritated with and they'll say
I'll say, well, what have youdone about it?
Well, god dang, I've asked himfor five years about this issue
and you know, nothing's changed.
And I have to say, like, well,I bet in y'all relationship is
(22:06):
probably exactly the same aswhat you're doing right now is
that all you're doing isflapping your guns.
You're asking, asking,suggesting, frustrated, and you
know your ex goes, ha ha, lookanother email from stupid ex and
deletes it.
And so that's kind of.
The first thing is like, man,you got to throw your shoulders
back, put your chin up and like,let's go, enough freaking
talking.
So if you're, if you know,whatever the issue is at play,
(22:29):
whether that means we need to doan enforcement or a
modification, don't even talkabout file you know, we didn't
see what that response isOftentimes just filing.
It causes enough of like a holycrap response.
You know this person's reallyfollowing through here.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Tap the brakes here.
Maybe we should talk Great.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And you've also taught people a lesson that the
next time an issue happens, I'mnot afraid to file and push this
up the flagpole.
So the next time I bring up anissue, you better talk to me and
not blow me off.
And so that's a big deal too.
So, yeah, you got to look atthe dynamic of y'all's
relationship.
However you know, whetheryou're going through divorce or
whether you're 10 years postdivorce, there's still a
relationship.
What does that look like?
(23:08):
And how are you feeding yourown problem?
You know, reasonable peoplewant to talk things out.
That's how I roll too.
I don't want to freaking go tocourt.
You know people ask me all thetime if I'm ever going to go
back to court and go deal withmy 15 year old.
I don't think I'd freakingsurvive, honestly.
Right, Because it's too closeto me.
Right, I can deal with Jude'sproblems.
(23:28):
I can deal with all my otherstudents of me, and I can't deal
with it anymore.
So, yeah, it's a good check.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Right.
Well, which is one of thereasons why now I recommend
anybody that's getting a divorcewhether it's amicable or high
conflict, that you need somebodyto help you through this
process.
Right, you need a Ben to helpyou.
If you're going to be pro-safe,you're going to be representing
yourself and even if you'regoing to do mediation, you're
going to do it amicably, youstill need a Ben.
You need a Jude to deal withwhat you just described, the
(24:05):
mental, emotional part of that.
A coach to help you take allthese parts around what's going
on, because that has an impact.
Right, what we're justdescribing, what you just
described right now, the mental,emotional part of that has an
impact on you.
If you're pro se in court, butyou cannot, you know, you just
(24:26):
cannot bring yourself to filethat motion or try to be
unreasonable in an attempt tojust come to something that is
reasonable, because you've gotsomebody else that is.
You know it's so convoluted andit's so and there's so much
that that goes into it that it'sreally, really important to
have those, have people aroundyou and, hopefully, somebody
(24:47):
that knows the process that canhelp guide you through that.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
You know it's a, it's a big point.
It's something I think all ofyou your people that are in the
community, I think, are kind ofteed into is that not many
people know what you'reexperiencing, even your friends
that have been through a divorce.
That you know.
Let's be real here, lots ofguys just roll over and take the
deal, okay.
And those guys, when you bringyour huge struggle to them about
(25:16):
how you're fighting for 50-50,going on four years or whatever
the case may be, they're notwith you.
They're like yeah, man, that'scrazy, that sucks, ben, I don't
know what to tell you.
And so you feel very isolatedand you feel very alone and you
don't want to talk to your newgirl about it or your mother, or
whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And so you're very alone.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
So that's probably to the end.
Jude, I'm sure you experiencedthis a lot.
That's probably one of myfavorite parts of my job.
I mean, a big part of my job isreading motions and finding
spelling errors.
That's not a lot of fun for me.
Talking to you about how you'redoing in your heart and your
mind and how you're gettingthrough this, and some
suggestions and thoughts fromsomeone that's been exactly
where you've been, is sorefreshing to most people, right
(26:00):
, you know, I mean, I do it too.
I've been heavily alienatedfrom my 15 year old.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Not many people understand that.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Lots of guys just say , like, well, bro, you know
he'll come back around when he's25.
Okay, maybe, so what am Isupposed to do for the next 10
years?
I'm about to lose my damn mind.
So I about to lose my damn mind, so I'm in a bunch of parental
alienation, zoom meeting typestuff that I do to sit there and
purge my own crap on otherpeople because nobody listens to
my crap I always listen toeverybody else's crap.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, exactly so.
Yeah, we just don't know whatwe don't know, right, and and
then you know back to, tospecifically the the law part of
it.
This system is created byattorneys, it's adjudicated by
attorneys and it really itbenefits attorneys.
(26:44):
Right, it's not set up tobenefit everybody who comes into
the system.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
The system is working exactly the way it was designed
to work Exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Right, right, and so let's talk about that a little
bit.
You need to understand thatwhen you're going into the
system, because I was completelylike hey, justice will be
served as long as I'm honest, uh, as long as I'm forthright, as
long as I'm doing the rightthing, have the right mind like
(27:14):
totally, totally clueless aroundthis, and just after 15 months,
like you just described, gotcompletely worn down.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
I get this from guys all, and then it was just like I
just want to be done, right,Like you said, just be done.
And then the problem with thatis you've got another 10, 15,
maybe 20 years of what you'vejust agreed to.
That trying to change orunravel becomes incredibly
difficult to do.
(27:46):
So one of the first things Italk about in coaching and I'm
sure that you do is you need tofigure out, you need to get up
to speed on statutes, you needto understand what's going.
Even if you've got an attorneyor if you've got Ben as your
coach, you need to educateyourself, Right.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yes, there's a lot.
Yes, you got to understand howthe the field that you're
playing on.
In the state of Texas, we did afreedom of information request
with the attorney general'soffice I think it was in 2021.
And we asked for there's 254counties in the state of Texas
and we asked for all 254 aboutwhat is the percentage of
custodial parents versusnon-custodial parents.
(28:29):
Who's which one's mom, whichone's dad?
Across all 254 in the state ofTexas, 92 percent of the time,
mom is custodial.
So, guys, you need tounderstand that you have an 8%
chance of being primary in thestate of Texas.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
That is statistically fat and I think across the
country it's 83%.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It's a predetermined outcome, and so that's why this
is back to my point.
I don't want to go to court overany of this.
I don't want to be in that roombecause I have a 92% chance of
losing, no matter how good myargument is.
And we laugh at the state ofTexas.
So back ass where we were justchuckling about this and say
Texas is a standard possessionorder.
It says specifically that inabsence of an agreement, the
(29:10):
minimum is standard possession.
In the later section of thestatute it says that the judge
must not, may not could mustcreate a schedule to maximize
both parents time.
The statutes are in conflictwith each other.
They say the freaking opposite.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
And so you know what does every judge do but rubber
stamp the minimum, in violationof the other statute.
But good luck getting it.
You know teaching a judge thelaw, especially when your pros
say they don't really takekindly to it.
And so, yes, you mustunderstand the game.
You've got to understand thatno one is here to help you.
They do not.
Nobody is your friend.
People think all the time ohyeah, I'm going to take a
guardian ad litem becausethey'll see right through this
(29:49):
crap and.
I promise you that ad litem isbest friends with your ex's
attorney.
They play golf together.
They're buddies.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
You're going to get hosed.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
The judge doesn't care about you.
Yes, they're going to giveopposing counsel, you know grace
, and they're going to pound youfor the same things.
No one is going to help you doanything in the system.
You can't even ask where do Ifile this thing?
Sorry, sir, we can't give youlegal advice.
Click, you know.
And so you just gotta.
You just gotta get your brainsaround.
This is the pool that you'rejumping in.
(30:18):
And so, yes, that's where youknow guys like me and Jude come
in and get handy to give youthat point in the right
direction, cause you're going toneed it.
Otherwise it's reallyintimidating, and you know to
your end earlier about justgetting ground down.
The number one reason peopleget rid of me is that they call
and they say I can't do itanymore, that's it.
I'm out of gas.
It's not we lost, it's not.
I'm out of money.
It's not anything, it's just Ican't.
(30:41):
I have to stop, you know, andand as much as I want to grab
them by the neck and go, no, yousaw, I think we can do this.
I also have to remember hey,what did I do?
Yeah, I threw the flag and saidthat's it.
Y'all are going to freaking,kill me.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I'm done so when I was pro se and having to read
the statutes, write the motions,write the responses, go through
(31:27):
all this.
So it is mentally andemotionally taxing, and so on
that point you say, well, theprocess isn't rocket science.
Right, it is a process, theprocess is known.
They don't like put it outthere for us they're not.
And when we're in there, likewhen I was representing myself,
I got steamrolled.
I got absolutely steamrolled onjust very simple procedural
(31:50):
stuff where the magistrate orthe judge could have said, hey,
you know you have the ability todo this, but never once would
they tell me, hey, you have theability to do this, but never
once would they tell me, hey,you have the ability to do this.
However, I've watched many timeswhen there were women crying or
upset or going on somethinggoing on emotionally in the
(32:12):
courtroom, where they'd stopeverything and they'd say ma'am,
do you need a minute?
Okay, you take a minute, ma'am,this is what your options are,
and like literally lay out allthe options for them to pick of
what's, of what's going on.
And so, with the with that said, and what we just described is
all of this, if you can hire anattorney, is it best to have
(32:39):
somebody representing you if youend up having to go to trial?
Is there a delineating place inwhich you would say Ben hey, we
don't want to be in trial, wedon't want to take this all the
way to trial, but it looks likeyou're going to trial.
Maybe you need an attorney,because that then becomes really
(33:00):
challenging if you're pro se.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It can, yeah, and I tell people if there's any point
that you want to hire anattorney, of course you could do
that, but you know that wouldbe one common spot Don't have an
attorney for discovery andinterrogatories and admissions
and motions to compel and someof this chinchy little stuff
that you can do, because as longas you'll put in the work to
learn how to do it, it's nothard.
And all of that is going tocost you 15, 20, 25 G's if
(33:25):
you've got an attorney.
But yeah, I want to save one forthe end now.
But I'm a little jaded with itbecause if I went through it all
over again and I knew what Iknow now, I'd never hire an
attorney ever, because I'll saythings in front.
I will say because I don't look, I don't care what the judge if
I'm his friend or he thinks I'ma nice guy, I really don't.
Yes, I understand that it wouldnot be wise to go running
(33:46):
around pissing off your judge.
However, I will say things tothe.
I will challenge the judge.
Let's say that an attorney won'tdo.
You got to remember, anattorney's got his entire career
in front of this judge.
He ain't going to go up thereand piss him off.
He's not going to go up thereand say, judge, I think you're
wrong.
And let me read you the statuteI'm going to.
And so, yeah, I get it.
People, you know they getfreaked out if they get close to
(34:08):
the final trial, andunderstandably so, and so then
they want to, you know, pass theresponsibility to somebody that
they think will help, andsometimes they do, Sure.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Now your point excuse me, your point about it being
basically a cottage industry ishuge.
Right, because they are goingto be in front of this judge
again, so oftentimes they're notgoing to go to bat for you in
the moment, some of them justaren't equipped to do well in
front of a judge, right?
Some of these attorneys arevery poor.
(34:39):
Others are very good at arguingin court, but some of them are
just going to wait and thenthey'll do a judicial review or
whatever, which benefits them,because then they got to get
paid to do this and then theycan prove that the judge was
wrong or the magistrate waswrong, because then they don't
(35:02):
have to argue it.
Right, at that moment theydon't have to piss anybody off.
Likewise, with some of theseother people that show up in
courts the quote unquote experts, right, the PREs or the CFIs or
financial people they're allkind of making their living in
the court.
They're not going to piss off Anattorney's not going to piss
(35:24):
off one of these people becausethey might have to see them
again or they might have to usethem with one of their clients,
right?
So, again, that's why it'sincredibly important Even, maybe
, if you have an attorney, havea coach like Ben that you can
bounce some of this stuff off of, because unfortunately the
system, like we said, is notstructured just looking out for
(35:48):
your best interest.
Even if you have an attorney,it's not.
I've been through seven of them, right, and I've gotten to the
point where I can say look, ifyou're not going to do what I'm
telling you to do, then I'm justgoing to find another attorney.
And I've had them say fine,because they just don't want to
listen, because they want to doit their way, because they don't
want to piss off the judge.
And then I've also had some sayman, I'd have never done that,
(36:13):
but it worked out.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
And so Texas has a deal called limited scope
representation.
I'm not sure.
I'm sure other states do aswell.
But it enables you to where youcan write your own motions and
do all of the background workand then attorney just signs off
on it, he files it.
In theory it works, but in reallife I rarely see it work, for
that very reason.
That you're saying is that youknow, if we put together a
(36:36):
blistering motion full of caselaw and questioning a decision
by the court, Mr Attorney isgoing to get squeamish.
He's going to get squeamish atthis because he's got to put his
name on this and it's going tolook like it's coming from him
and 99 times out of a hundredhe's going to drop the football.
And so, yeah, yeah, you know,I'm sure you've probably taken a
(36:56):
hundred of these phone callstoo with with you know, ben, I
had an attorney and you know,and we had this gigantic hearing
.
And then I can say, let meguess he didn't do anything you
asked him to do in the hearing,right?
Oh, yep, he didn't get pushedback against anything and I got
killed.
And so you know what that costsyou $55,000.
Okay, well, right.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Which is also a reason to have somebody like you
that you can strategize withand then tell your attorney what
you want them to do and how youwant them to approach things in
court.
Because, yeah, that happens allof the time, and it is so
critical that the attorneys areonly thinking about you during
(37:39):
the time in which they arebilling you, so they're not
laying up at night thinkingabout what the best strategy is
for Ben and his children and hisfamily right During the 15
minute increments.
That they have to be thinkingabout you is when they're doing
it, and usually that's not.
They're not strategizing right.
The strategy is, I would say, asmall percentage of it, and most
(38:00):
of them aren't really good atit, and so that's why you've got
to, as a dad, be on top of thestatutes, you've got to know
what's going on, you've got totalk to people like Ben, to know
and strategize, and then youhave to decide all this, and it
actually goes back to theattorney that I fired, which is
if you don't want to do what I'mdoing, what I'm telling you to
(38:21):
do, then I will find somebodywho will, and you might have to
say that because, again, thesystem is set up for them to do
it in the least amount of timeis with the, with the least
amount of effort, as quickly aspossible, without pissing
anybody off, and if it goes intohigh conflict, like a lot of
ours does, then that makes itmuch more difficult.
(38:42):
I know we got to wrap up on time, so so, maybe, maybe just share
a last thought that you wouldgive any of the dads that are
listening, that are eithercontemplating pro se or going
through pro se, and then letthem know how they can get ahold
of you, because I think, inaddition to divorce coaching,
like I, do something completelydifferent than than you do.
(39:04):
You focus right and you and youalluded to that earlier in the
in in in the show, you dosomething very specific and very
narrow and that is absolutely,100% needed by every dad,
whether he's represented byattorney or not.
So share with them.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
The tagline on my website says you can do this
period.
We can help.
And, honestly, that's the firstthing you got to understand,
man, is that you got this.
It's okay.
I get that you're freaked outyou should be.
It's terrifying, I understand.
But okay, now let's take thatfear and set it over here and
understand that it's not hard,it's okay, you know.
(39:39):
I mean, compartmentalize yourfear and you will have killed 99
of the dragons, and so you know.
And then again, you know,develop strategy, think clearly
and be freaking honest withyourself.
What are you really after here?
What are we really trying tosolve?
I don't, yeah, I don't thinkit's gross for people to say I
can't handle the child supportanymore because I can't handle
(40:00):
the child support.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
It's a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I was talking to a guy this morning.
It's $1,400 a month with likean eight-year-old and you know
it's like I've raised three kids.
It didn't cost $1,400 a monthto raise three kids, much less
one.
And if you took $1,400 a monthfrom me today, that can trigger.
You know how many times is thatwhat fires it up, when you know
moms will come to me and say Idon't know why dad got all
(40:23):
pissed off and filed all thisstuff against me.
And then you know, dot dot, dot.
I just filed for a childsupport increase.
I don't understand why he's soticked off and it's like I can
tell you why he's mad.
But, yeah, I mean guys, you cando it, Guys do it.
Guys are good aboutstrategizing and being logical
and trying their best to getemotion out of it and work on
(40:44):
that.
But yeah, you know Jude has donea tremendous job.
I want to say thanks for havingme on.
This has been a really coolinterview.
I really you're very good atwhat you do with this and.
But you know you can find melet me just transition to that.
You can find me atprosSiteCoachTXcom is where my
site is, and you can read muchabout me.
I am a little unique from frompeople, as I mentioned earlier,
(41:05):
that I do get way down in theweeds with you, which also means
I can only take so many peopleon at a time, because it's a
pretty daggum intimaterelationship I have with you,
because I'm going to learneverything about you and your
life and what's important to youand how you handle stress, and
we're going to talk at 2 am andI mean I've taken plenty of
calls at 3.30 in the morningbefore hearings, with people
(41:27):
freaking out before that, and soit's.
You know I do tell people to behonest with yourself in terms
of time.
I would say this is a solidpart-time job while you're in it
, you know.
I mean it's a good two, three,four hours a night if you're
going to do it right.
And of course, the people thatdon't are the ones that
disappear off my calendar for amonth and then pop back up and
(41:48):
say I haven't done a damn thingin a month, and so, of course,
nothing's happened or nothing,we haven't moved anything
forward, and so, anyway, much todiscuss.
But I'd love to hear from anyof you.
I do handle I I'm from texas,obviously, prosaycoachtxcom, but
uh, I've worked with people inoregon, west virginia, louisiana
, florida, hawaii, new york, newjersey, arizona, colorado, um,
(42:10):
the laws do have some nuanceddifferences, but they're not big
, um big.
But anyway, I would love totalk to you, and even beyond all
of the down in the weeds legalstuff, as I mentioned earlier, I
know exactly what you're goingthrough.
So if you ever want to talk tosomebody who knows exactly what
you're going through, I wouldlove to do that.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, you are not alone, Ben.
I sincerely appreciate it, andI can also say that Ben comes
highly recommended.
Ben comes highly recommended.
There's an individual in ourcommunity that has used Ben
speaks very highly of Ben, hashad some tremendous outcomes
because of his work with Ben,and so please get in contact
(42:53):
with him and get the help thatyou need and that you deserve.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Hey, I'll wrap it up.
So I really sincerelyappreciate it.
I'll wrap it up with one littlefunny story for you.
It's really brief, but I haveone attorney friend, sure, and
his name is also Ben, and helives over in the Houston area
and he split up with his ex inhis I think late 20s as well and
he sued her every single yearfor eight years for 50-50.
And every single year he lost.
(43:22):
But on the eighth year shefinally said you're an attorney
now.
And he said, yeah, I figuredwhat the hell, I already learned
it all.
So I just went to take back toschool and pass the bar.
You know what?
That's it.
We're just doing the 50-50.
We're moving on.
(43:42):
So the point of that thoughsometimes it's not over and done
, even if you lose.
Even if you lose, just pick upyour sword and you can keep
going.
When you have an attorney, youcan't really do that.
They're going to start lettinggo of you and they're going to
bleed you out.
When you're pro se, nothing canstop you except you, yep,
absolutely Tell them to staystrong.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Sometimes, unfortunately some of us it's a
war and there's all these smallbattles that go into the
long-term war around that.
It's a terrible analogy to use,but it found some value in this
.
Please share it far and wide onsocial media.
Give us a star rating, evenbetter.
(44:22):
Leave us some comments anddefinitely get in touch with Ben
Ben.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, bud.
Thanks bud.
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week.
I sincerely appreciate it.
We've got an incredible episodeahead and an expert that is
tremendous.
Something that we haven'ttalked too much about, probably
at all in the five years thatwe've been together, but I think
it's an important topic for us,and that's about being pro se,
(00:24):
which is representing yourselfduring this divorce process.
Before we jump in, though, justa reminder to check out the
Divorced Advocate website atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
All kinds of resources for youwherever you're at in your
divorce, wherever you're atfinancially, from free to paid
resources.
Check out the divorce quiz,another opportunity to gauge
(00:46):
where you're at in your divorcecompared to thousands of others
that have gone through it.
So check it out at the divorceadvocatecom.
Get the help that you need andthat you deserve.
Okay, my guest, after his firstdivorce, had 50, 50 parenting
time of his two kids.
That was all the way since 2006.
He enjoyed a wonderfulrelationship with their mother,
(01:09):
never went to court, and lifewas as good as it could be for a
single dad.
But then his second marriagefailed after having his third
child, and what followed was aneducation he never wanted.
Dozens of hearings, countlessmotions, hours upon hours of
case law research, argumentpreparation and strategy
(01:29):
formation.
The four-year education wasintense and he came out the
other side a rather shatteredindividual.
However, he also discoveredvery quickly that he had
accumulated information andknowledge that is overwhelmingly
valuable to those unluckyenough to be on the same
adventure he was on.
That's a nice way to describe itas an adventure.
(01:50):
This led him to found the ProSe coach.
Please welcome, ben Schooley.
Ben welcome, thanks, miriam.
Hey, yeah, so adventure is anice way to describe this right.
Yeah, so adventure is a niceway to describe this right Going
(02:16):
on a divorce and you've been ontwo of them, so you're twice as
educated as I and some of therest of us are.
But start off by just sharing alittle bit about why you
decided then to get into pro secoaching, and maybe you can
describe what pro se is and whatpro se coaching is in that as
well.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Sure, I guess 18 years ago I had no idea what the
word pro se meant.
I married my high schoolsweetheart.
We had two kids, really young,and you know we had no business
being married, and so that endedquickly.
And then you know we had nobusiness being married, and so
that ended quickly.
Um, and then you know theactual process.
I gosh, I think we weredivorced in 90 days and you know
we did 50, 50, no support.
(02:54):
We were in our mid twenties, wewere both broke as hell and off
she went and off I went, and wejust did seven days, seven off.
And I tell you what I give hercredit to this day.
Um, when we split, our youngestwas six months old and she was
nursing him and she would bringme breast milk every day that he
was with me and I tell you whatat the time I was like I didn't
(03:15):
appreciate it as much as Iappreciate now to understand
just how quite how rare that wasfor her to do that for me.
And so, anyway, we moved on.
I ultimately remarried, and,you know, still doing 50, 50
with the young, with the oldertwo, that X ultimately moved to
the end of my street even, andso the kids just came and went
whenever they wanted, you know,and so they just kind of did
(03:35):
whatever.
But yeah, anyway, the secondone broke down and and I filed
for divorce there, and I enteredthat really naively because I
simply told her, I mean, I knewshe wanted out too, and so I
just said, well, this will besuper easy.
I said I tell you what.
You take everything we own andwe'll just put our son on the
same schedule as brother andsister Done, you can have
(03:56):
anything you want.
You know, that was my, that wasmy deal, but that didn't work
out.
And so four years of goingthrough that, yeah.
And so four years of goingthrough that and, yeah, more
hearings than I could possiblyeven count.
The stack of paper I have, it'salmost four feet tall, it's in
my closet waiting for that childif he ever wants to see it.
But I have not seen him now inalmost four years.
(04:17):
The other two I still talk tothey're 22 and 19 now, so you
know they aged out.
But yeah, my youngest is 15.
And he's been told andconvinced that the reason I
don't come around is my faultand that I don't want to.
And anyway, I went through allof those hearings and all of
that on my own.
I was in a small town that Igrew up in.
(04:38):
I felt like I could handle itand I was completely blind to
the process and just went in,put my football helmet in and
just started crashing throughwhatever I needed to crash
through.
So, you know, I got laughed outof court more times than I
could count and I went home andI redid whatever it was.
I did wrong and refiled it andwent back and did it again and
yeah, and so when I got out ofit, out of that whole journey
(05:02):
again to my point about beingsmall town lots of people knew I
went through a really long,nasty divorce and so I couldn't
go out to have a bite of dinnerat night without three people
stopping and asking me divorcequestions, and I found that I
knew most of the answers and soI started saying like well, you
know you want to file this anddon't forget that and make sure
you include that.
And they'd say, well, she spentthat year Thanks a bunch, bud.
(05:25):
And at the time I owned alittle company and so I was
still plugging away at that.
But I just discovered that moreand more and more of my time
was spent, you know, in Facebookgroups and other people
starting to come toward me justasking questions and asking
questions.
And the next thing I know I'mdoing this like five hours a day
.
Okay, so my, my real jobstarted suffering really bad,
but I see this just like tidalwave of people just start.
(05:48):
I start.
Next thing, I know I'm talkingseven days a week, eight hours a
day, with all these people.
I don't even know them, um, so,anyway, that's where pro se
coach came from, and so Iincorporated that name and fired
this up and I had no idea whatwould happen.
I still had my little companyand, uh, I got my first student.
His name was wonderfully namedBen, and I walked through that
(06:08):
with him and I was just talkingabout Ben the other day because
he was my very first student andwe got him really close to
50-50 and he settled and this isgoing on.
Probably five years ago andabout two, three weeks ago,
somebody sent me a message andit was his obituary and he
killed himself and his ex flaredup several years later and he
(06:30):
was having none of it and I justshare that to say this is a
really not enjoyable process andit's hard in a variety of ways
and, most importantly, it'sintimidating as hell because
your children are on the line,your finances are on the line
and, frankly, beyond that,beyond your own health, there's
not anything else really thatmuch important and your health
(06:54):
is the other thing that's goingto can potentially begin to be
impacted.
You know I went to the hospitalfour times, going through those
four years with gigantic panicattacks that I'd never
experienced before.
I'm six foot two.
I weigh about 210.
At the time, when I got done, Iweighed 162 pounds.
I was a walking skeleton andI'm a guy who would have said I
(07:14):
went through it all right.
But to look back, you know, infact that's how my whole journey
actually stopped is that mymother called me?
I was standing in the garageand she called me.
You know I'm in year four ofthis.
I weigh 160 pounds and I hadrecently, at that time, lost my
brother my younger brothercancer, and she called and she
said I watched your brother dieand I'm watching you die, so
(07:36):
you're done, we're stopping now.
So you're, you're, you'rewaving the flag, buddy.
And so I did, and anyway.
But that propelled me into thispro state coach was born.
And then, you know, withinabout six months I sold my
little company I have, and sothis is all I do now, full time.
I love doing it.
It's really hard job.
You know, jude, I know you talkto a lot of people too.
(07:58):
It's a very draining job therecan be, because it's a nasty
topic to talk about all damn day.
You know it's drama and it'shurt and it's tears and it's
fear and and it's all day.
And you know, and I'msympathetic to people because
they blow me up on july the 4thwith 26 text messages because
they're freaking out aboutsomething.
(08:19):
And you know, some part of mecould be like man, leave me
alone.
It's July the 4th.
But then I think back to my ownjourney.
I know, if I had, if I knew ofa guy like me, I'd have blown
him up too.
You know, because my head is inthe clouds, I don't even know
what day it is, much less toeven be respectful of your time.
I'm not trying to bedisrespectful, I'm freaking out
and so, but I do.
(08:39):
But I do, I'm very passionateabout it.
I argue with God a lot aboutthis.
I get very angry about itbecause I can't believe I went
through what I went through sothat I could help this guy over
here.
You know, I got to go throughall that, so I wish I didn't
know what.
I know I wish I had a differentjob, but I'm glad for the one I
got, that.
I'm really, really passionateabout this and I feel very
(09:02):
strongly that if you'reconsidering being pro se, the
first thing you have to get overis fear, because I know you're
intimidated by the process, butI swear on all that's holy Once
you see a peek behind thecurtain um, it is crayon, simple
.
Um, it is not difficult.
(09:24):
Um, but it's intimidating.
And so once you can get pastthe you know the the complexity,
objection, you're on your way,cause from there, you, you learn
really quick that you canweaponize the court system, not
in a way to like punish your exor like do awful things to this
person, but rather almost as afinancial sword, that you know.
I mean it's a gross way tothink about it, but, frankly,
(09:44):
every divorce attorney anywherewill tell you the first person
that runs out of money losesRight.
And so, as a as a proficientpro se person, I can bleed you
out so fast and make your headspin.
You know, I mean we laugh aboutit all the time when I teach
people how to do discovery andthey go really, that's all
discovery is.
It's that simple, you know ittakes us 45 minutes on a phone
(10:05):
call and I can say, yeah, but Iswear this is going to cost your
ex, I don't know, eight grandto deal with that and
potentially emotion, that compeland a little hearing.
I mean it's crazy amounts ofmoney.
And so I always I use courts aslike I try I tell people I
don't like going to court overimportant things.
I don't want to go to court anddeal with kids and possession
access If I can avoid it.
(10:25):
I understand that that'sunavoidable frequently, but I do
like going to court over thingsthat don't matter.
Discovery, you know,enforcements, these types of
things.
Let's go all day every day andso those are.
Those are good.
But yeah, I mean, that's kindof a crash course in who I am
and how I got here.
I'm pushing 50 now.
(10:47):
I just moved to central Texasfrom a little bit more south
from the hill country and then,yeah, my 22 and 19 year old.
My 22 year old is in Sweden now.
I haven't talked to her in agood while.
My 19-year-old was in ahumongous car crash in May when
he was living with me and he wasin the hospital for almost six
weeks and when he got out heonce said I want to go back to
mom's house.
I think mom's a better nursethan I am, so he went to mom's
but he's doing well.
(11:07):
But yeah, the 15-year-old I donot see.
So I was just thinking abouttoday.
He plays football.
So football is going to fire uphere at the end of August.
So I guess those are myopportunities.
I get to actually lay eyes onkids.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So I'm looking forward to that.
So I want to get into and talkmaybe a little bit about that.
I did want to make one point,though.
So I find it very interestingthat you've had both experiences
with an ex right An ex that'sabsolutely tremendous that sees
the value in their father beinginvolved in their children's
lives, did something like youdescribed which was way above
(11:43):
and beyond.
And then another one who's, I'massuming, probably alienating or
doing at least not facilitatingthe process for the kids.
Facilitating the process for thekids and I point that out
because we get all kinds of dadsthat come to the community, and
(12:03):
oftentimes the dads that cometo the community that don't have
a high conflict start to getscared around things, and
because there's a higherpercentage of dads that come to
the community really looking forhelp because they're struggling
, they might be alienating, theymay not have seen their kids
for a long time, they're runningout of money, whatever it might
(12:24):
be.
And then the other dads are likeoh geez, oh geez, which is not
a bad thing to be prepared tohear some of these worst case
stories, because what we alwayssay is prepare for the worst and
hope for the best, right.
But I just wanted to point outthat mentally, emotionally
healthy people see the value inboth parents being involved in
(12:47):
their children's lives and willmake an effort to make that
happen.
And so if you need a litmustest for whether or not that
person that you're ending therelationship and the marriage
with is not stable mentally,emotionally stable, might have a
personal disorder, et cetera ifthey're not doing everything
(13:10):
they can to facilitate that,then that is your red flag where
you need to be paying attentionto what's going on.
Huge red flag.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yes, yes.
When you re-enter the datingworld and you find the date who
begins with oh yeah, dad nevercomes around because he's the
biggest loser, you probably needto tap the brakes just a smidge
.
It was funny in my 20s after myfirst ex and I split.
I didn't know if I was supposedto feel guilty about it or what
, because I had several friendsthat actually broke up too with
(13:40):
the explanation of well, ben andAllie have done OK, let's just
do it like they did, and it'slike OK, well, it's as ideal as
it can be.
But certainly, man, if you'regoing to get married, boy, you
get married to be married, don'tyou know?
Don't be getting married tohave kids and then break up.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
That's certainly not the way to spin it.
Definitely, yeah, ideally.
And my point being is becauseoftentimes and I know this was
my case in going through thedivorce process was oh, I fell
in love with this person.
I don't want to destroy thisperson, but if they're acting
poorly, which is the red flag ofnot facilitating time together
(14:21):
or doing other things, then youneed to pay attention to that,
because that is going to be ared flag and that is going to
help you to understand kind ofthe course you're going to be
taking, Like can you get thisdone amicably, pro se, maybe
with a mediator, maybe with acollaborative divorce, et cetera
, or do you need to really startpreparing for the worst and
(14:43):
then hoping that they comearound?
So I just wanted to make thatpoint.
That's pretty huge Now youpointed out.
I think it was very interestingthat you pointed out that you'd
like to go to court for theselittle things because it's very,
very expensive, but not for thebig things.
Let's dive a little bit moreinto that in the contract of pro
(15:07):
se what pro se is and why thatis beneficial and then also tie
that into talking about peekingbehind the curtain.
You said that it's not rocketscience.
These attorneys go to school tolearn all this case law, et
cetera.
Really, what they've learned isthe process right, so take us
(15:29):
through that a little bit Sure.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Yeah, a few things about just kind of how I work
too.
You know, the people that findme the earlier in their process
I tend to be able to work alittle bit better with, just
because you know you find me ayear into the process.
There's a lot of things that'salready happened.
That may or may not have beenideal, yeah, but I suppose, like
my process is a little bitdifferent than many people, I
guess, that call themselvesdivorce coaches or other things
that at least I've stumbledacross.
(15:52):
Here in the state of Texasthere's a committee called the
Unauthorized Practice of LawCommittee and they run around
trying to find guys like me thatare jump over the line, which
I'm extremely careful about.
I cannot give legal advice, Icannot tell you what to do.
I cannot.
You know there's a lot of no'sI cannot do, but one caveat that
they included was that, orexcluded, I should say is that
(16:14):
there's nothing blocking youfrom sharing any sort of motion
template or any other form ofdocumentation that you need for
court.
So the first misconception mostpeople bring me is can I do
this thing, whatever it is,without an attorney?
And the answer, 100% of thetime, is yes, there is nothing
an attorney can do that youcannot do.
So sometimes there's anadditional step or two, like,
(16:34):
for example, subpoenas Pro se.
People do not have subpoenapower, at least in Texas, so you
have to go through the court,which all that means you have to
fill out a one page form.
Ok, done, cost $60.
But it's not hard, but anyway,yeah.
So when I try to get a hold ofpeople, it's, it's, it's.
I try to get people reallyrational.
Try to get a hold of people.
(16:55):
It's, it's, it's.
I try to get people reallyrational.
I mean, just like you say that,um, you know when you meet
people and how they treat theirex and other things, the red
flag.
It's also a red flag for me,because you know what are you
really about?
Here?
I work almost equally 50 50 withmoms and dads, which was a huge
surprise to me.
When I got started I thought itwould all be 90% guys.
I don't know why.
I thought that.
I just figured they were alwaysthe ones getting rolled.
(17:15):
But man, I tell you there's alot of women out there that get
smoked by this industry as well.
But anyway, we try to figure out.
Is it really all about kids?
And of course everybody says,yes, okay, I get that.
But then how much of it isactually about money?
And that gets a little touchierbecause people don't want to
admit to me that, look, I can'tpay this freaking child support.
(17:36):
Or, ben, look, I really needthe child support.
All right, whatever you.
But you got to get honest withme because I got to know where
you're at.
And then okay, and then let'sfire up this party.
Whether we're doing the filingfor divorce or the modification
or whatever it is, I'm going toshare the template with you.
We're going to talk throughthat.
I utilize a lot of video coursesas well to kind of help
expedite explanations and otherthings.
(17:56):
But strategically, what Itypically do is let's say, jude
calls and Jude says, man, I'm onthe regular old every other
weekend.
Deal, this sucks, I want tomove to 50-50.
Frequently I'm not sayinguniversally, but frequently what
we'll do is we'll say, allright, let's fire this party up
and he will actually file andrequest to be primary and flop
the entire thing and put mom onevery other weekend, all right.
(18:19):
This is obviously veryexplosive in terms of the filing
and the response from the otherparty, but our intention isn't
actually to you know, to endwith what we asked for.
It's asking for one hundred andtwenty 125% so that we're
willing to be talked back towhere we want.
And I tell you what I don't careif you file that on your ex and
(18:41):
she laughs at you and flips youthe bird and says I'm going to
kick your butt in court.
That's all normal.
I promise you she is up at notworrying about this because you
know, because there's this reallike, even if it's a 5% chance,
she's got to sit there and thinklike holy crap, man, what if
that really happened and I lostall the child support and I'm
going to owe him child supportand I'm going to see the kids
every other weekend Wow, I'mstressed, all right, and then,
(19:04):
yeah, and then we use the systemto just continue to push this
through as hard as we can.
I always use the phrase liftback a dump truck up to her
attorney's office and just startshoveling it out, whatever.
So you asked about like behindthe curtain, and you know simple
things.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
I do.
Let me just clarify.
So you're so.
What you're saying is that,from a from a standpoint and a
tactic of negotiation, you arestarting with something that is
much more extreme than actuallyprobably what is going to be the
ultimate.
That is much more extreme thanactually, probably what is going
to be the ultimate ruling orthe ultimate agreement that each
of the parties comes to.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Yeah, because see if I'm going to go to mediation.
Okay, first of all, I don'tever like to go to a final trial
ever.
That's terrifying to me to giveone person that much power over
a very long period of your lifewith a guy who doesn't even know
your kid's name.
So I don't ever want to go tofinal.
That's why I say I do not likegoing to court over important
things.
But if I'm going to go intomediation against my ex and the
(20:04):
only thing I'm asked for is50-50 in my plea, it takes two
seconds to get me back to 47-53.
And nothing really changes.
Yeah, maybe you got an extraovernight, but we're not
dramatically shifting the power,the balance of power.
If I'm going into that roomsaying, ok, offer number one is
I'm primary and you're paying mesupport.
(20:25):
I know she's going to laugh meout of the room, but maybe, just
maybe, that counteroffer issomething I can somehow arm
wrestle to get really close tothat 50-50 that I was seeking to
begin with.
And so, yeah, this is basicnegotiation right, I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
These are basic negotiation skills that are
taught.
When you do negotiating, or ifyou're in some kind of field
where you negotiate for a living, which is ask for more, come to
where you can feel comfortablewith and decide right.
So that makes perfect sense.
Now let me ask you this, thoughso when you might see somebody
(21:04):
that is on the other side, thatis coming with some ridiculous
stuff, do you do the same thing,which is come back with your
ridiculous stuff?
Because what I see guys doingoftentimes and we get a lot of
guys to the community that arecapitulating they may have been
codependent in theirrelationship, and so they're
(21:25):
used to uh saying yes or alwaysagreeing to things, and uh, and
and being the yes man, andthat's probably one of the
reasons why the relationshipsend.
I know that that was a part ofmy challenge as well, and then,
when they start getting intothis, it's really really hard
for them to be like yeah, whatare you talking about?
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I'm asking for a hundred percent.
So, yeah, that's a big point.
When I talk to people for thefirst time and you know they'll
tell me something that they'reirritated with and they'll say
I'll say, well, what have youdone about it?
Well, god dang, I've asked himfor five years about this issue
and you know, nothing's changed.
And I have to say, like, well,I bet in y'all relationship is
(22:06):
probably exactly the same aswhat you're doing right now is
that all you're doing isflapping your guns.
You're asking, asking,suggesting, frustrated, and you
know your ex goes, ha ha, lookanother email from stupid ex and
deletes it.
And so that's kind of.
The first thing is like, man,you got to throw your shoulders
back, put your chin up and like,let's go, enough freaking
talking.
So if you're, if you know,whatever the issue is at play,
(22:29):
whether that means we need to doan enforcement or a
modification, don't even talkabout file you know, we didn't
see what that response isOftentimes just filing.
It causes enough of like a holycrap response.
You know this person's reallyfollowing through here.
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Tap the brakes here.
Maybe we should talk Great.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
And you've also taught people a lesson that the
next time an issue happens, I'mnot afraid to file and push this
up the flagpole.
So the next time I bring up anissue, you better talk to me and
not blow me off.
And so that's a big deal too.
So, yeah, you got to look atthe dynamic of y'all's
relationship.
However you know, whetheryou're going through divorce or
whether you're 10 years postdivorce, there's still a
relationship.
What does that look like?
(23:08):
And how are you feeding yourown problem?
You know, reasonable peoplewant to talk things out.
That's how I roll too.
I don't want to freaking go tocourt.
You know people ask me all thetime if I'm ever going to go
back to court and go deal withmy 15 year old.
I don't think I'd freakingsurvive, honestly.
Right, Because it's too closeto me.
Right, I can deal with Jude'sproblems.
(23:28):
I can deal with all my otherstudents of me, and I can't deal
with it anymore.
So, yeah, it's a good check.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Right.
Well, which is one of thereasons why now I recommend
anybody that's getting a divorcewhether it's amicable or high
conflict, that you need somebodyto help you through this
process.
Right, you need a Ben to helpyou.
If you're going to be pro-safe,you're going to be representing
yourself and even if you'regoing to do mediation, you're
going to do it amicably, youstill need a Ben.
You need a Jude to deal withwhat you just described, the
(24:05):
mental, emotional part of that.
A coach to help you take allthese parts around what's going
on, because that has an impact.
Right, what we're justdescribing, what you just
described right now, the mental,emotional part of that has an
impact on you.
If you're pro se in court, butyou cannot, you know, you just
(24:26):
cannot bring yourself to filethat motion or try to be
unreasonable in an attempt tojust come to something that is
reasonable, because you've gotsomebody else that is.
You know it's so convoluted andit's so and there's so much
that that goes into it that it'sreally, really important to
have those, have people aroundyou and, hopefully, somebody
(24:47):
that knows the process that canhelp guide you through that.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
You know it's a, it's a big point.
It's something I think all ofyou your people that are in the
community, I think, are kind ofteed into is that not many
people know what you'reexperiencing, even your friends
that have been through a divorce.
That you know.
Let's be real here, lots ofguys just roll over and take the
deal, okay.
And those guys, when you bringyour huge struggle to them about
(25:16):
how you're fighting for 50-50,going on four years or whatever
the case may be, they're notwith you.
They're like yeah, man, that'scrazy, that sucks, ben, I don't
know what to tell you.
And so you feel very isolatedand you feel very alone and you
don't want to talk to your newgirl about it or your mother, or
whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And so you're very alone.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
So that's probably to the end.
Jude, I'm sure you experiencedthis a lot.
That's probably one of myfavorite parts of my job.
I mean, a big part of my job isreading motions and finding
spelling errors.
That's not a lot of fun for me.
Talking to you about how you'redoing in your heart and your
mind and how you're gettingthrough this, and some
suggestions and thoughts fromsomeone that's been exactly
where you've been, is sorefreshing to most people, right
(26:00):
, you know, I mean, I do it too.
I've been heavily alienatedfrom my 15 year old.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Not many people understand that.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Lots of guys just say , like, well, bro, you know
he'll come back around when he's25.
Okay, maybe, so what am Isupposed to do for the next 10
years?
I'm about to lose my damn mind.
So I about to lose my damn mind, so I'm in a bunch of parental
alienation, zoom meeting typestuff that I do to sit there and
purge my own crap on otherpeople because nobody listens to
my crap I always listen toeverybody else's crap.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, exactly so.
Yeah, we just don't know whatwe don't know, right, and and
then you know back to, tospecifically the the law part of
it.
This system is created byattorneys, it's adjudicated by
attorneys and it really itbenefits attorneys.
(26:44):
Right, it's not set up tobenefit everybody who comes into
the system.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
The system is working exactly the way it was designed
to work Exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Right, right, and so let's talk about that a little
bit.
You need to understand thatwhen you're going into the
system, because I was completelylike hey, justice will be
served as long as I'm honest, uh, as long as I'm forthright, as
long as I'm doing the rightthing, have the right mind like
(27:14):
totally, totally clueless aroundthis, and just after 15 months,
like you just described, gotcompletely worn down.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
I get this from guys all, and then it was just like I
just want to be done, right,Like you said, just be done.
And then the problem with thatis you've got another 10, 15,
maybe 20 years of what you'vejust agreed to.
That trying to change orunravel becomes incredibly
difficult to do.
(27:46):
So one of the first things Italk about in coaching and I'm
sure that you do is you need tofigure out, you need to get up
to speed on statutes, you needto understand what's going.
Even if you've got an attorneyor if you've got Ben as your
coach, you need to educateyourself, Right.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yes, there's a lot.
Yes, you got to understand howthe the field that you're
playing on.
In the state of Texas, we did afreedom of information request
with the attorney general'soffice I think it was in 2021.
And we asked for there's 254counties in the state of Texas
and we asked for all 254 aboutwhat is the percentage of
custodial parents versusnon-custodial parents.
(28:29):
Who's which one's mom, whichone's dad?
Across all 254 in the state ofTexas, 92 percent of the time,
mom is custodial.
So, guys, you need tounderstand that you have an 8%
chance of being primary in thestate of Texas.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
That is statistically fat and I think across the
country it's 83%.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
It's a predetermined outcome, and so that's why this
is back to my point.
I don't want to go to court overany of this.
I don't want to be in that roombecause I have a 92% chance of
losing, no matter how good myargument is.
And we laugh at the state ofTexas.
So back ass where we were justchuckling about this and say
Texas is a standard possessionorder.
It says specifically that inabsence of an agreement, the
(29:10):
minimum is standard possession.
In the later section of thestatute it says that the judge
must not, may not could mustcreate a schedule to maximize
both parents time.
The statutes are in conflictwith each other.
They say the freaking opposite.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
And so you know what does every judge do but rubber
stamp the minimum, in violationof the other statute.
But good luck getting it.
You know teaching a judge thelaw, especially when your pros
say they don't really takekindly to it.
And so, yes, you mustunderstand the game.
You've got to understand thatno one is here to help you.
They do not.
Nobody is your friend.
People think all the time ohyeah, I'm going to take a
guardian ad litem becausethey'll see right through this
(29:49):
crap and.
I promise you that ad litem isbest friends with your ex's
attorney.
They play golf together.
They're buddies.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
You're going to get hosed.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
The judge doesn't care about you.
Yes, they're going to giveopposing counsel, you know grace
, and they're going to pound youfor the same things.
No one is going to help you doanything in the system.
You can't even ask where do Ifile this thing?
Sorry, sir, we can't give youlegal advice.
Click, you know.
And so you just gotta.
You just gotta get your brainsaround.
This is the pool that you'rejumping in.
(30:18):
And so, yes, that's where youknow guys like me and Jude come
in and get handy to give youthat point in the right
direction, cause you're going toneed it.
Otherwise it's reallyintimidating, and you know to
your end earlier about justgetting ground down.
The number one reason peopleget rid of me is that they call
and they say I can't do itanymore, that's it.
I'm out of gas.
It's not we lost, it's not.
I'm out of money.
It's not anything, it's just Ican't.
(30:41):
I have to stop, you know, andand as much as I want to grab
them by the neck and go, no, yousaw, I think we can do this.
I also have to remember hey,what did I do?
Yeah, I threw the flag and saidthat's it.
Y'all are going to freaking,kill me.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
I'm done so when I was pro se and having to read
the statutes, write the motions,write the responses, go through
(31:27):
all this.
So it is mentally andemotionally taxing, and so on
that point you say, well, theprocess isn't rocket science.
Right, it is a process, theprocess is known.
They don't like put it outthere for us they're not.
And when we're in there, likewhen I was representing myself,
I got steamrolled.
I got absolutely steamrolled onjust very simple procedural
(31:50):
stuff where the magistrate orthe judge could have said, hey,
you know you have the ability todo this, but never once would
they tell me, hey, you have theability to do this, but never
once would they tell me, hey,you have the ability to do this.
However, I've watched many timeswhen there were women crying or
upset or going on somethinggoing on emotionally in the
(32:12):
courtroom, where they'd stopeverything and they'd say ma'am,
do you need a minute?
Okay, you take a minute, ma'am,this is what your options are,
and like literally lay out allthe options for them to pick of
what's, of what's going on.
And so, with the with that said, and what we just described is
all of this, if you can hire anattorney, is it best to have
(32:39):
somebody representing you if youend up having to go to trial?
Is there a delineating place inwhich you would say Ben hey, we
don't want to be in trial, wedon't want to take this all the
way to trial, but it looks likeyou're going to trial.
Maybe you need an attorney,because that then becomes really
(33:00):
challenging if you're pro se.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
It can, yeah, and I tell people if there's any point
that you want to hire anattorney, of course you could do
that, but you know that wouldbe one common spot Don't have an
attorney for discovery andinterrogatories and admissions
and motions to compel and someof this chinchy little stuff
that you can do, because as longas you'll put in the work to
learn how to do it, it's nothard.
And all of that is going tocost you 15, 20, 25 G's if
(33:25):
you've got an attorney.
But yeah, I want to save one forthe end now.
But I'm a little jaded with itbecause if I went through it all
over again and I knew what Iknow now, I'd never hire an
attorney ever, because I'll saythings in front.
I will say because I don't look, I don't care what the judge if
I'm his friend or he thinks I'ma nice guy, I really don't.
Yes, I understand that it wouldnot be wise to go running
(33:46):
around pissing off your judge.
However, I will say things tothe.
I will challenge the judge.
Let's say that an attorney won'tdo.
You got to remember, anattorney's got his entire career
in front of this judge.
He ain't going to go up thereand piss him off.
He's not going to go up thereand say, judge, I think you're
wrong.
And let me read you the statuteI'm going to.
And so, yeah, I get it.
People, you know they getfreaked out if they get close to
(34:08):
the final trial, andunderstandably so, and so then
they want to, you know, pass theresponsibility to somebody that
they think will help, andsometimes they do, Sure.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Now your point excuse me, your point about it being
basically a cottage industry ishuge.
Right, because they are goingto be in front of this judge
again, so oftentimes they're notgoing to go to bat for you in
the moment, some of them justaren't equipped to do well in
front of a judge, right?
Some of these attorneys arevery poor.
(34:39):
Others are very good at arguingin court, but some of them are
just going to wait and thenthey'll do a judicial review or
whatever, which benefits them,because then they got to get
paid to do this and then theycan prove that the judge was
wrong or the magistrate waswrong, because then they don't
(35:02):
have to argue it.
Right, at that moment theydon't have to piss anybody off.
Likewise, with some of theseother people that show up in
courts the quote unquote experts, right, the PREs or the CFIs or
financial people they're allkind of making their living in
the court.
They're not going to piss off Anattorney's not going to piss
(35:24):
off one of these people becausethey might have to see them
again or they might have to usethem with one of their clients,
right?
So, again, that's why it'sincredibly important Even, maybe
, if you have an attorney, havea coach like Ben that you can
bounce some of this stuff off of, because unfortunately the
system, like we said, is notstructured just looking out for
(35:48):
your best interest.
Even if you have an attorney,it's not.
I've been through seven of them, right, and I've gotten to the
point where I can say look, ifyou're not going to do what I'm
telling you to do, then I'm justgoing to find another attorney.
And I've had them say fine,because they just don't want to
listen, because they want to doit their way, because they don't
want to piss off the judge.
And then I've also had some sayman, I'd have never done that,
(36:13):
but it worked out.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
And so Texas has a deal called limited scope
representation.
I'm not sure.
I'm sure other states do aswell.
But it enables you to where youcan write your own motions and
do all of the background workand then attorney just signs off
on it, he files it.
In theory it works, but in reallife I rarely see it work, for
that very reason.
That you're saying is that youknow, if we put together a
(36:36):
blistering motion full of caselaw and questioning a decision
by the court, Mr Attorney isgoing to get squeamish.
He's going to get squeamish atthis because he's got to put his
name on this and it's going tolook like it's coming from him
and 99 times out of a hundredhe's going to drop the football.
And so, yeah, yeah, you know,I'm sure you've probably taken a
(36:56):
hundred of these phone callstoo with with you know, ben, I
had an attorney and you know,and we had this gigantic hearing
.
And then I can say, let meguess he didn't do anything you
asked him to do in the hearing,right?
Oh, yep, he didn't get pushedback against anything and I got
killed.
And so you know what that costsyou $55,000.
Okay, well, right.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Which is also a reason to have somebody like you
that you can strategize withand then tell your attorney what
you want them to do and how youwant them to approach things in
court.
Because, yeah, that happens allof the time, and it is so
critical that the attorneys areonly thinking about you during
(37:39):
the time in which they arebilling you, so they're not
laying up at night thinkingabout what the best strategy is
for Ben and his children and hisfamily right During the 15
minute increments.
That they have to be thinkingabout you is when they're doing
it, and usually that's not.
They're not strategizing right.
The strategy is, I would say, asmall percentage of it, and most
(38:00):
of them aren't really good atit, and so that's why you've got
to, as a dad, be on top of thestatutes, you've got to know
what's going on, you've got totalk to people like Ben, to know
and strategize, and then youhave to decide all this, and it
actually goes back to theattorney that I fired, which is
if you don't want to do what I'mdoing, what I'm telling you to
(38:21):
do, then I will find somebodywho will, and you might have to
say that because, again, thesystem is set up for them to do
it in the least amount of timeis with the, with the least
amount of effort, as quickly aspossible, without pissing
anybody off, and if it goes intohigh conflict, like a lot of
ours does, then that makes itmuch more difficult.
(38:42):
I know we got to wrap up on time, so so, maybe, maybe just share
a last thought that you wouldgive any of the dads that are
listening, that are eithercontemplating pro se or going
through pro se, and then letthem know how they can get ahold
of you, because I think, inaddition to divorce coaching,
like I, do something completelydifferent than than you do.
(39:04):
You focus right and you and youalluded to that earlier in the
in in in the show, you dosomething very specific and very
narrow and that is absolutely,100% needed by every dad,
whether he's represented byattorney or not.
So share with them.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
The tagline on my website says you can do this
period.
We can help.
And, honestly, that's the firstthing you got to understand,
man, is that you got this.
It's okay.
I get that you're freaked outyou should be.
It's terrifying, I understand.
But okay, now let's take thatfear and set it over here and
understand that it's not hard,it's okay, you know.
(39:39):
I mean, compartmentalize yourfear and you will have killed 99
of the dragons, and so you know.
And then again, you know,develop strategy, think clearly
and be freaking honest withyourself.
What are you really after here?
What are we really trying tosolve?
I don't, yeah, I don't thinkit's gross for people to say I
can't handle the child supportanymore because I can't handle
(40:00):
the child support.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
It's a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
I was talking to a guy this morning.
It's $1,400 a month with likean eight-year-old and you know
it's like I've raised three kids.
It didn't cost $1,400 a monthto raise three kids, much less
one.
And if you took $1,400 a monthfrom me today, that can trigger.
You know how many times is thatwhat fires it up, when you know
moms will come to me and say Idon't know why dad got all
(40:23):
pissed off and filed all thisstuff against me.
And then you know, dot dot, dot.
I just filed for a childsupport increase.
I don't understand why he's soticked off and it's like I can
tell you why he's mad.
But, yeah, I mean guys, you cando it, Guys do it.
Guys are good aboutstrategizing and being logical
and trying their best to getemotion out of it and work on
(40:44):
that.
But yeah, you know Jude has donea tremendous job.
I want to say thanks for havingme on.
This has been a really coolinterview.
I really you're very good atwhat you do with this and.
But you know you can find melet me just transition to that.
You can find me atprosSiteCoachTXcom is where my
site is, and you can read muchabout me.
I am a little unique from frompeople, as I mentioned earlier,
(41:05):
that I do get way down in theweeds with you, which also means
I can only take so many peopleon at a time, because it's a
pretty daggum intimaterelationship I have with you,
because I'm going to learneverything about you and your
life and what's important to youand how you handle stress, and
we're going to talk at 2 am andI mean I've taken plenty of
calls at 3.30 in the morningbefore hearings, with people
(41:27):
freaking out before that, and soit's.
You know I do tell people to behonest with yourself in terms
of time.
I would say this is a solidpart-time job while you're in it
, you know.
I mean it's a good two, three,four hours a night if you're
going to do it right.
And of course, the people thatdon't are the ones that
disappear off my calendar for amonth and then pop back up and
(41:48):
say I haven't done a damn thingin a month, and so, of course,
nothing's happened or nothing,we haven't moved anything
forward, and so, anyway, much todiscuss.
But I'd love to hear from anyof you.
I do handle I I'm from texas,obviously, prosaycoachtxcom, but
uh, I've worked with people inoregon, west virginia, louisiana
, florida, hawaii, new york, newjersey, arizona, colorado, um,
(42:10):
the laws do have some nuanceddifferences, but they're not big
, um big.
But anyway, I would love totalk to you, and even beyond all
of the down in the weeds legalstuff, as I mentioned earlier, I
know exactly what you're goingthrough.
So if you ever want to talk tosomebody who knows exactly what
you're going through, I wouldlove to do that.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Yeah, you are not alone, Ben.
I sincerely appreciate it, andI can also say that Ben comes
highly recommended.
Ben comes highly recommended.
There's an individual in ourcommunity that has used Ben
speaks very highly of Ben, hashad some tremendous outcomes
because of his work with Ben,and so please get in contact
(42:53):
with him and get the help thatyou need and that you deserve.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
Hey, I'll wrap it up.
So I really sincerelyappreciate it.
I'll wrap it up with one littlefunny story for you.
It's really brief, but I haveone attorney friend, sure, and
his name is also Ben, and helives over in the Houston area
and he split up with his ex inhis I think late 20s as well and
he sued her every single yearfor eight years for 50-50.
And every single year he lost.
(43:22):
But on the eighth year shefinally said you're an attorney
now.
And he said, yeah, I figuredwhat the hell, I already learned
it all.
So I just went to take back toschool and pass the bar.
You know what?
That's it.
We're just doing the 50-50.
We're moving on.
(43:42):
So the point of that thoughsometimes it's not over and done
, even if you lose.
Even if you lose, just pick upyour sword and you can keep
going.
When you have an attorney, youcan't really do that.
They're going to start lettinggo of you and they're going to
bleed you out.
When you're pro se, nothing canstop you except you, yep,
absolutely Tell them to staystrong.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Sometimes, unfortunately some of us it's a
war and there's all these smallbattles that go into the
long-term war around that.
It's a terrible analogy to use,but it found some value in this
.
Please share it far and wide onsocial media.
Give us a star rating, evenbetter.
(44:22):
Leave us some comments anddefinitely get in touch with Ben
Ben.
Thank you so much.
Thanks, bud.
Thanks bud.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.