August 18, 2025 • 52 mins
Financial expert Tammy Guns delivers a masterclass in divorce finances, revealing why proper planning can save you tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars during one of life's most challenging transitions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week.
I've got a tremendous expertthat is going to be talking to
us about all things financialduring divorce.
But before we jump in with her,let me welcome some of the new
members, as always, to theDivorced Advocate community.
(00:21):
Welcome to Cullen, Kelly andBrian.
If you are not a member of theDivorced Advocate community,
Welcome to Cullen, Kelly andBrian.
If you are not a member of theDivorced Advocate community yet,
get the support that youdeserve and need at the website,
at thedivorcedadvocatecom.
Wherever you're at in theprocess, whatever resources you
have, we have something therethat can help you out.
(00:41):
So check it out atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
All right, my guest today is ahighly, highly accomplished
professional with a unique blendof expertise in auditing,
business development, divorcemediation, asset tracing and
expert witness testimony.
(01:03):
She has served on two boards ofdirectors, authored two
award-winning books and holdsfour yes, four college degrees,
including two masters, with astrong foundation in accounting.
She's a graduate of theUniversity of Michigan and the
University of Wisconsin and isalso an engaging international
(01:24):
keynote speaker.
Her career highlights includedelivering a TEDx talk in Dallas
, Texas, and chairing a globalconference in Rome, Italy.
Please welcome Tammy Guns.
How are you doing, Tammy?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm doing well.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
How are you today?
I am great, and that is someresume and I got to say to my
audience you come very highlyrecommended in the area that we
kind of operate in in thedivorce realm here.
So when we connected I waspretty excited to chat with you
and our previous chat did notdisappoint.
It was very exciting and we'vegot just a ton of stuff, as any
(02:04):
of the listeners can imagine, intalking about the financial
piece of divorce.
It is so.
It can be well one, it'semotionally charged, but it can
be so complex and complicatedsometimes as well.
So I'm really interested inchatting with you about that.
But before we jump into some ofthose more specifics, share a
(02:27):
little bit about yourself andwhy in the world would you want
to get into this complex worldof finances and emotional world
of divorce and worked withdivorce and divorcing couples?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, I ended up getting into this space based on
having my own journey in it aswell.
So I mean, right out of collegeI worked at Arthur Anderson, I
did auditing and I've spent myentire career doing finance work
and accounting work.
But again, to me that was notas interesting as being able to
help people through a reallydifficult transition in their
(03:04):
life.
And so when I walked this pathmyself back in 2006, because I
was officially divorced back in2007, I just saw personally how
much you know divorce is really90% kids and finances and really
only 10% legal, and how thefinancial piece can make people
really afraid.
I know when I was going throughmy divorce, I'd wake up at two
(03:28):
o'clock in the morning scared,very scared for what my life was
going to look like and so Iactually really enjoy the work
that I do.
I know when I say I go tococktail parties and I tell
people what I do, they kind ofcringe but I say no.
I feel very honored to be ableto help people go through a
divorce.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, so instead of getting another degree in law,
you decided to go the wholedivorce route, which is, I think
and it's unfortunate that weget the dads that come to us
after the fact that just did nothave somebody like you that was
able to take them through theprocess during the divorce,
during temporary orders orpost-nups, and then through
final orders and then settingtheir lives up for success after
, and that just puts you so farbehind the eight ball.
(04:28):
And the unfortunate thing isthat so many people, even if
they aren't in financial straits, after experiencing that they
don't even know how much moneythey have either left on the
table or lost because they justwent through and split it down
the middle and had all kinds oftax implications or couldn't get
(04:49):
an assumption done, or they'rerefinanced on, or had to wait
years and like so many differentthings that they don't even
know.
And oftentimes I don't even sayanything right, because you
don't want to just add rub saltin the wound.
But that's what I want to talkto you today is to just get this
information out there to thedads listening and why it is so
(05:11):
incredibly important we talk onthis show a lot about creating
your divorce team that they'rethe divorce coach.
They're the ones going to haveto run this.
The attorney is one player onthat team, maybe a very
important one right Aquarterback or running back, but
I would say the next mostimportant one is going to be a
financial analyst.
Well, you're a certifieddivorce financial analyst and
(05:39):
there's a difference and we'regoing to talk about that too as
to financial planners and whatthey can and can't and their
expertise and what you will beable to do to help them.
So let's just start out.
It becomes obvious that there'sgoing to be a change in your
finance when you're goingthrough divorce.
What is one of the first thingsyou would tell a dad when money
(05:59):
moves?
What they should do when theyfigure out that divorce is
imminent?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, certainly, gathering all of your
information right, All of yourdocuments.
They're required anyway underthe statutes for disclosure.
So you want to know all of yourassets and all of your
liabilities.
So we always start with themarital balance sheet because
that can impact depending onwhich assets you receive it can
impact your cash flow.
So we always start there.
About half of the work I do I domediation, so I'm working with
(06:31):
both spouses through the divorce.
And then the other half of thework I do litigation support, so
I'm working with one spouse.
So I always say I meet clientswhere they are.
But no matter what client I'mworking with, I'm always going
to start with the maritalbalance sheet and one of the
(06:51):
important aspects is we walkthrough everything, such as tell
me your goals, what are youwanting?
Do you want the marital home?
Do you not want the maritalhome?
So we can start to kind of forma plan of what things look like
.
But I also will talk to peoplethrough the process regarding
liquidity and tax implications,because sometimes people think
they're trading a dollar for adollar, when they're really
trading a dollar for maybe 60cents or 85 cents, right, so we
(07:14):
literally every single asset.
I'll ask them if they know thebasis.
Sometimes people don't evenknow what basis is.
I'll explain that to them andthen I look at are there future
tax implications with thisparticular asset that you're
receiving?
But that's only part of thestory.
What I tell people when I workwith them is sometimes, when you
meet with me, you may have morequestions than answers, but I
(07:35):
promise you through the processthat we will get to the final
answer as far as what makessense from an asset base,
liability base as well as cashflow.
So we need all of thatinformation because sometimes
someone really wants a maritalhome but we talk through it like
can you assume the loan?
Or, if not, how do yourefinancing?
(07:56):
Do you need to buy out theother person?
Can we do this as a deferredasset?
So we literally talk aboutthings.
I always say I'm not just hereto get you a divorce, because
anyone can do that.
Right, you can get someone toan agreement.
I'm here to get you where itmakes sense for you post-decree,
so that you have the leastamount of conflict and you have
(08:17):
thought through everything.
We do not leave any stoneunturned when we go through the
process, so that people have avery wide perspective.
And it's interesting, peopleanswer their own questions,
because I ask them a lot ofquestions about what assets they
want and then once they see thewhole thing and they see the
cash flow, they're like, oh,this doesn't make sense anymore,
(08:38):
and so they really do answertheir own questions in the end.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Right.
So I see this quite often ifone of the dads has not been the
one that is handling thefinances, paying the bills, that
it's absolutely imperative tostart figuring out.
Hopefully it's amicably, whereyou can be working with your
soon-to-be ex and getting andcompiling this information, but
(09:08):
if it's not, it is crucial thatyou start getting a handle on
and figuring out what is goingon with your finances, where
money's at what's getting paid,like everything so that is and
start to create a system towhere you're able to keep that
(09:28):
at Google Drive or somethingelse, that you're then able to
pull this information becauseyou're going to need this
throughout the entire process.
Right, they're going to talk toyou first to hopefully get help
and sorting it all out andunderstanding, maybe a game plan
, but then they're going to needit for their attorneys and then
their their attorneys, and thatmight be, depending on the
(09:50):
length of the divorce, right,that that can be years sometimes
.
That's going to get updated andthen you're going to have to
update it with the court, withyour attorney and with the court
.
So, get a filing system, getall your stuff in a pile and and
and get it all ready so thatthen you can take it to Tammy.
And then the next thing youtalked about, which was kind of
(10:10):
what I alluded to in thebeginning, which is then looking
at this stuff, have you talk,maybe a little bit more in
detail?
We could talk about this forhours and talk about all the
situations and how they canmaximize their taxes, et cetera,
(10:33):
which I don't want to do.
That's why I want them to callyou right or call a CDFA, but
let's talk about that, becauseeven with, let's say, you've got
a house which is an asset andsome retirement stuff, there are
some significant tax thingsthat you can do when, like you
just alluded to and maybe we cangive an example of, just a
(10:56):
brief example of, say, one ofthe two would like to well,
let's just use it.
Okay, the dad wants to be ableto keep the house right, and so
he wants to finance.
Or, let's say, he wants to doan assumption, but then he's
going to have to pay outwhatever that equity is, and so,
(11:20):
let's say, there's retirementfunds, and then he's thinking
about maybe offsetting that.
Let's talk about a scenario likethat and how they can save
money by talking to you, asopposed to just saying, okay,
well, we're just going to splitit, or we're going to split
those assets and then he'd takeout the retirement funds.
They get a penalty on them andthen he gives that to the other
(11:41):
person or whatever crazy thingthat might.
I mean, I'm sure you've seenI've seen crazy stuff from going
.
Why would you do that?
You just gave the governmentlike tens of thousands of
dollars.
That's stupid.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Right.
So one of the things when welook at who wants the house in
this case, you said that the dadwanted the house.
So, we'll say, okay, well, youknow.
I want to know the basis.
I want to know if he is goingto have a future tax implication
Currently.
Of course, tax laws can change,but currently there's a
(12:14):
$250,000 exclusion per person,and so if he receives, you end
up in a divorce, you're subjectto what is called 1041 exchange
rules.
It's an IRS statute that saysyou receive assets in a divorce.
There's no tax implication atthe time of that.
However, once you go to sell it, then you have to pay the taxes
.
So I'd want to know, especiallyin the most recent years, houses
(12:34):
have gone way up in value andso there could be a capital gain
, and again, that capital gaincould be anywhere between 15 and
20%.
Again, this is based on 2025tax rules.
These could change at anymoment.
Now, if they're going to nownot have a retirement fund or
exchange that to the otherspouse.
Certainly there's two differentthings.
(12:54):
Number one I'd want to knowabout liquidity, right?
Because if the other spouse islooking to also purchase a condo
or a townhouse, you would wantto say, okay, well, how can they
get some liquidity IRAs?
If they are moved over to aspouse?
You really can't cash them inuntil you're 59 and a half
without penalty.
However, a 401k you can.
(13:17):
So there's a one-time exclusion.
You have to have what's called aqualified domestic relations
order that will move the 401kover.
However, 401ks will allow youto have an election.
It's a one-time election andyou must do it at the time that
you're getting the 401k movedover into your name.
You're able to take that out ascash and that way, that person
(13:40):
could have the cash to be ableto buy a house or, like I said,
or a condo or use it for livingexpenses.
Now, they don't have the 10%penalty if they're less than 59
and a half.
However, they would have to payordinary income taxes.
So sometimes what we do youknow certainly if I was with the
dad I wouldn't point that outto the spouse that, hey, if
(14:00):
you're going to take thatqualified domestic relations
order, you're going to take that401k that there would be a tax
implication as far as they'regoing to have to pay ordinary
income taxes on it.
However, for my clients I'mgoing to point that out I'm
going to say listen, if you'regoing to be the one receiving
that 401k, ask for a true up.
Ask for, if you were going totake $100,000 and you want to
take it cash, ask for $120,.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Right, true up.
So basis is what the value isright, just to be clear for
those listening.
And then the true up is thatyou're making considerations for
what those tax implications areso you can have a true net of,
let's say, if it's $100,000,you're getting $110,000 because
(14:48):
there's 10% whatever 10% taximplication on there.
So you're going to true that,obviously, if they're working
together, hopefully they'retalking about this in an
amicable manner and trying tohelp each other to offset any of
this.
But again, like you said, ifit's contentious you're just
trying, you're not trying to getover, but you're setting
yourself up as much as you canto do what's the best thing.
(15:12):
So then, to summarize what yousaid was so with the IRAs,
there's nothing you can do.
Those get either transferred orthey get split and there's
penalties and taxes on it andthere's you can do the QDROs,
right, the QDRO which is.
(15:35):
Then they can do the one-timetransfer.
So say, the dad's assuming theloan, which is a whole other
thing which we did.
We just did an episode lastweek or two weeks ago with Carla
on how to do assumptions andthe complications around that.
But they are doable, and one ofthe things was whether
(15:58):
assumption is good or not, orpossible or not, is if there is
equity that needs to be paid tothe other spouse, and so this
401k is an option to be able todo that without having to pay
any of those penalties.
And so that's and this is.
(16:18):
I just wanted to use one examplelike this because I see and
it's just because you don't knowwhat you don't know right,
because when I went through it12 years ago, I didn't know.
You probably did, becauseyou're an accountant and you
have accounting money I know,when we talked to Carla, one of
the things that she was gratefulfor was that she had her
(16:41):
mortgage background and she knewwhat she could and couldn't do
with the mortgage and was ableto finagle some of this stuff.
But attorneys do not know aboutso much of this stuff and we
just see them like, okay,looking at the balance, they'll
get their financial disclosuresand they'll just go okay, well,
you're going to get half of that, and then you're going to have
(17:02):
whatever that penalty is, and itis such a huge, huge mistake.
So that's hopefully thatexample that you just provided
helps those listening tounderstand that, hey, you've
really got yourself up andeverybody up for the best
possible outcomes, because thisis a simple math equation.
(17:37):
Even non-accountant dummies likeme, who got a D in accounting
in college, can look at thismath equation and say one
household into two means moreexpenses and same income,
probably, and so if you're notpaying attention to that, it
makes it.
(17:57):
You can put I see people allthe time put themselves in
financial straits and it doesn'thave to be that way.
So you can be smart bycontacting somebody before you
talk to the attorney or whileyou're talking to the attorney.
So what is one of the biggestmistakes that you see dads
(18:19):
running into when they do,outside of the one that I just
described?
Are there any other bigmistakes that you see happening
when couples are divorcing froma financial standpoint?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, they don't look at their future cash flow, and
that's what I do with everysingle one of my clients,
because if someone wants thehouse, maybe they'll qualify
from the bank's perspective, themortgage lending institution's
perspective.
However, when they look at allof their expenses, or especially
if they have children andthere's extracurricular
activities and whatnot andbraces, they're not looking at
(18:54):
their cash flow.
So they may make a decision totake the marital home, give up a
part of their retirement andthen maybe a year down the road,
they end up selling that homeand now they're going to have
again.
They could potentially have acapital gain and now they're
going to buy a much smaller homebecause they just realized that
they could not afford it.
You know, there's nothing worse, I think, than being house poor
(19:15):
.
I think a lot of people want tohang on their homes because of
the.
they think it's stability forthe children.
And let me tell you, kids areresilient, right?
Kids can.
In fact, I always say it's muchbetter for the kids to go
through a major life event likethis under your tutelage, where
you're able to hold them andtalk to them and wipe away their
(19:36):
tears.
And then, when they go off tocollege someday or they're an
adult someday and they facechallenges it's not the first
challenge they've ever faced andso I think kids are far more
resilient than people givethemselves credit for or give
the kids credit for, and sothey'll try to hang on to a
marital home when it justdoesn't make sense financially.
I'm sure the kids would muchprefer that you live comfortably
(19:59):
where you can pay all of yourbills, versus being stressed out
constantly about making thosepayments.
And so, like I said, there'snot a client I work with that I
don't work with them on futurecash flow projections to make
sure the decisions they'remaking make sense.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, that's huge, because so often you know, in my
case we had remodeled the houseand I got it exactly how I
wanted it and there's so muchemotion that goes into it.
And one of the things you likeyou said and obviously you've
(20:35):
been through this right Is thething the thing with the kids
and you're worried about thekids.
You don't want to disrupt thekids, but we talk about it all
the time here how resilient theyare, that this is an
opportunity whether you can seeit right now for you to be able
to demonstrate and model forkids getting through a difficult
and challenging time and andyour point also, which is
(20:57):
tremendous that you're alsothere to help them through a
difficult and challenging time.
So not only you're modelingyour that for them and they see
you and how you're reacting, butyou're able to to nurture them
through it, which is a a huge,huge thing, huge thing.
But the cash flow thing isreally, really something it
seems like there's usually oneor the other, and I don't know
(21:20):
if this is your experience ornot, or if you find that men or
women tend to be just moreattached and less aware of the
cash flow side of this, because,because it, it, man, it is.
It is so awful when one or theother parent is, like you said,
(21:42):
just clinging to say thismortgage, that is just, it's
going to be ridiculouslyexpensive, even if they can
refinance it.
Just to do that.
How do you cut through some ofthat emotion?
Let's say, because we get guysthat are emotional about it, we
get women that are emotional.
I would posit that womensometimes get more emotional
(22:05):
about it and look at it maybeless of a business transaction,
but you do this more.
So how do you cut through thatand try to help them to move in
a direction that you know isgoing to be financially better
for them?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Well, like I said, a lot of our process, people end
up answering their own questions.
So I'm like okay, so you wantthe home.
And then I'll say, let's gothrough your budget.
What is that new payment goingto look like?
And oh, by the way, you know,do you need?
You're going to change yourhealth insurance policy and now
your insurance is going to go upon your cars or maybe you're.
There's a lot of expenses theydon't think about right and so
(22:40):
maybe they have a plan, togetherwith a family, for phones.
Now I'm going to okay, nowyou're going to have to pay for
that on your own.
So we go through all of thethings I don't tell people hey,
listen, you shouldn't keep thishome or you shouldn't keep this
asset.
I'll go through and ask themwhat they're thinking.
We'll go through that process.
Then we'll go through theirexpenses and then, I look at
their income.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I certainly look at everything Like are they going
to be paying support or are theygoing to be receiving support?
Then we get down there and I'llsay, okay, now, if you keep the
house, this is what it's goingto look like on a monthly cash
flow, you're only going to bepositive.
You know, $100.
What happens if you need newtires that month, right?
So then what happens is thenthe people will answer their own
(23:22):
questions of oh, this doesn'tmake sense, I don't think I
should keep the home.
Or if I do keep the home now, Ihave nothing in retirement.
I'm in my middle 40s.
What does that look like?
So I ask lots of questions ofmy clients.
I have, like I said, a processthat it seems to work for
everybody as far as then at theend they're like boy Tammy, I
(23:45):
don't think I want the homeanymore or I don't want this
asset.
So they really do answer theirown questions because it's what
they're comfortable with.
And I'll tell you, I think it'suniversal that people don't dig
this deep into their finances.
Most people don't have verygood budgets that they follow
and so it may seem rudimentary,but it's not.
It's actually key tounderstanding what things are
(24:08):
going to look like.
Or people could have ahistorical knowledge of their
budgets, but we want to do aforward-looking budget so that
they understand what is it goingto really look like tomorrow,
not yesterday.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right.
So basically, I feel likeyou're describing to me as
financial therapy.
You're sitting and asking themquestions and they're answering
questions and they're kind ofcoming to it by speaking out
loud to what you're asking themand finally making their
conclusions like, yeah, I'm notgoing to be able to go on that
(24:44):
girls or guys trip because I'mnot going to have any money or
even, like you said, just beable to buy a new set of tires
or if the car breaks down, orsomething like that.
I think that's brilliant.
When you're working with andthis would be different maybe in
the different scenarios thatyou discuss, whether it's the
couple together or one of theindividuals how long does it
(25:07):
usually take you to sit downwith them, go through that and
let's just use just a scenariowhere they have a house, maybe
some retirement, becauseobviously if you build in
businesses and other largerassets or stuff like that,
that's things do the financialtherapy with them and then come
up with a plan for them thatthey can take to their attorney
(25:36):
and implement it.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Well, when I do mediation and I'm working with
both spouses, it tends to be youknow, I meet with them for two
hours at a time and we usuallymeet every other week, so we can
go through an entire divorce insix weeks about.
I don't like to rush it becauseI want people to be able to
digest the information thatwe're talking about, because
(25:59):
they're making decisions for therest of their life.
You know you don't get to sayoops with the court.
No, now I've decided I don'twant this asset.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
But with an individual client, when we're
going through things anywherebetween four and six hours, but
I don't like to meet with peoplefor more than two hours at a
time because I want them to beable to truly understand what
we're talking about.
I realize that emotions and theability to comprehend are an
inverse relationship, so thehigher the emotions, the less
(26:27):
people are able to comprehend.
I don't care if you're Einstein, it's going to work that same
way.
So, as we all know, goingthrough a divorce, it's a high
emotional period of time, and sothat's why I want to be able to
talk through things so peopletruly understand this is their
life, it is not my life, and Isay that all the time to my
clients.
I'm like I am here to help you,I'm here to serve you and your
(26:54):
needs, and this is not my life.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I want you to be comfortable with this decision
Right, and I wanted to clarifysomething that you said there
too.
So you do mediation for couples,but you also do just a plan for
couples or individuals that arejust going through this process
, so that they can either takeit together, like I said in the
(27:18):
beginning, to their respectiveattorneys and hopefully it's
amicable and then presented tothe court and then the court
approves it, or, if it is a highconflict, then that's their
plan that they're fighting forand arguing maybe, and then I
know that you're also an expertwitness around some of that
stuff too.
So so you do both of thosethings which are which are which
(27:39):
are different, but and I'd wantto emphasize also that that
plan part of it because that'sthe one that I I don't see
happening enough, even if it isamicable with couples, that it
is huge to find somebody to.
I'm just going to beat this todeath this entire time.
It's already half hour but it'shuge to have somebody and I'm
(28:01):
sure you agree with me to lookat that up front.
That is so, so important.
So, on the emotions part, somedads feel the financial system
in divorce is stacked againstthem.
I'm not going to get into thedetails of that, but from your
CDFA perspective, how can theyprepare so the settlement will
(28:26):
be fair and sustainable for them?
So just kind of looking fromthe perspective of a dad here.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Well so, and my own brother went through a divorce,
and he went through a divorce avery, very long time ago, back
when the courts were not asfavorable for dads having 50%
custody of the children, and somy brother was kind of on the
cutting edge of getting 50%custody of his son when that was
just unheard of when he gotdivorced.
(28:54):
And so I have my own brotherwho is a huge advocate for
fathers in divorce.
I would say that sometimespeople will let guilt or their
own emotions kind of have themgo.
Well, she can just have that orshe can just do this, I don't
care.
And they'll almost give awaythe farm in order to commit
(29:17):
feeling guilty or other emotionsthat are involved.
And I always say listen, you'regoing through a high emotional
period of your life and don't dothat because you're going to
have to live after this.
And so that's where I alwaysbring them back to what's
happening on paper here.
What do we really see from,like I said, the asset
(29:38):
standpoint, the tax standpoint,the cash flow standpoint?
You know I want the dads to beable to have the financial
wherewithal to be able to dothings with their kids and take
their kids on vacation.
So I think sometimes I've seenthat happen, where people will
let truly guilt get in the wayof good decision-making, because
you know what I always tellpeople when I meet with them.
(29:59):
Listen, most states areno-fault states.
I think actually there's nostate in the United States that
isn't so.
What happened or transpired inthe marriage is really not my
business.
I'm here to help you goingforward, so don't let those
emotions from the past cloudyour decision-making going
forward.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Right.
So that's where it's importantto get a therapist on your team
or a coach or both, so thatyou're not and I can relate to
that.
It was just, I was, finally, Ijust wanted this done, and I
don't really care what it lookslike and that was a huge, huge
mistake, because I got worn downand I did not do what we're
(30:42):
talking about today and I didnot get a coach and a therapist
to be able to help me build theskills to deal with the emotions
, to deal with everything thatwas coming up.
So that's great and that'scompletely non-financial advice,
right, which is learn, do whatyou need to do to get through.
It's going to be even in themost amicable divorces, there's
(31:04):
a huge amount of emotional,mental, emotional weight that
goes through this, and then thefinances are.
That seems to be the thing thatreally in like, uh, supercharge
those, those emotions and andfeelings right, that's like you
said, just make you lay up atnight and stressed out and
(31:25):
worrying and and make everythingmuch more, much more difficult.
So that's, uh, that good.
That wasn't exactly the answerI was expecting, but that makes
perfect sense.
Yeah, that's great.
You're, you're like, you'retruly like a financial therapist
, in addition to certified tothe North's financial answers.
Right, there's so muchpsychology and mental, emotional
(31:46):
issues that that go into it.
It's, it's something I probablyyou know until this
conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I do realize it, but, like the work that you've got
to do in order to cut throughsome of that is is pretty
immense.
Yes, I mean, and I I want tomake sure that you know people
are understanding what's goingon, like you said, because I do
see people becoming weary in theend and I'm like listen, you
know I'm here to help you andsupport you through the end so
that you don't make a decisionthat you're going to regret
later on.
And even so, you know you hadmentioned that.
(32:17):
You know here, because of mybackground in accounting, that I
must have known this stuffgoing through my divorce.
No, because there's nuances.
You know, in college I didn'tlearn about divorce, right, I
didn't learn about the nuances.
So there's things that reallymy training as a certified
divorce financial analyst havetrained me to understand things
(32:38):
from a divorce perspective.
Some of the statutes that are,you know, different.
The states are different,whether you're a community
property state or not.
So there's a lot of nuancesthat have, you know, really
nothing to do with finance andaccounting and so they're really
specific to divorce.
So you don't want to just talkto your CPA that does your taxes
.
They're certainly an importantperson to ask questions of, but
they're not going to see thewhole picture.
(32:58):
Same with the financial planner.
They have a certain expertise,but they're not necessarily
familiar with all of the divorcenuances and the statutes that
surround that.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Right, so let's talk about that.
That's a good segue to what wealluded to a little bit earlier
is the you might have afinancial planner, which is
great.
Hopefully you do.
They've helped you create abudget.
They've helped you get to thepoint that you're at now with
your assets and your retirementand investments and everything
else.
That's that's really tremendous.
(33:32):
That's really tremendous.
But why and and I you said it,but I want you to say it again
right, why talk to you insteadof and I get, I get this all the
time yeah, I've got a financialplanner.
I'm like, okay, and I do do thesame thing.
And when I'm coaching guys,coaching the dads, I say that's
great, but there are nuances andand you take it from there,
(33:54):
what like?
Why?
Why do they need to come to youinstead of just their financial
planner?
And maybe you have an exampleof one that just did not work
out well with their financialplanner.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, I've actually, and again, financial planners
are wonderful professionals andthey have a great role that they
serve.
But I will tell you, I've haddifferent people come to me,
many cases not just one where afinancial planner is helping to
try to propose a settlement andI will say what's wrong with it
and for all the particularreasons Some of it has to do
with support purposes they'relike, well, this can happen and
(34:27):
I'll say, well, that's nevergoing to fly.
In court Again, I always tellpeople I'm going to offer you my
professional opinion.
I don't offer legal advicebecause I'm not an attorney.
However, I know from being incourt as an expert witness what
will fly and what won't.
And so a lot of financialplanners very good hearted
people will propose somethingthat I'm like that won't work,
(34:48):
or this is going to mess uptheir liquidity, or you didn't
look at their future cash flow.
They're really looking at itperhaps from an asset under
management perspective orwhatnot.
There are definitely peoplethat when I'm working with
clients, I'll say these are aprofessional you may want to
talk to about a certainparticular aspect of it, but not
the overall picture, becausethey're going to miss things
(35:11):
because they're not familiarwith the statutes, whereas CDFAs
are.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Right.
Well, and another thing thatyou're being kind enough not to
say, but I will, is that theymight have a different
perspective on why they wantthose assets to stay with them
and not get transferred to theother spouse or cashed out or
put into a hire or somethingelse like that.
And that's not to say thatanybody's doing things
(35:38):
disingenuously, but, hey,there's human nature that is
involved in this whole processtoo.
So, and that's just in additionto the fact that they don't
know all the nuances goingthrough that they're really
looking at a.
The way that I see it isthey're just looking at a
snapshot of of right now.
(35:58):
Right, they're not.
They're not looking both downthe road and all the what's
going to happen in college.
And maybe they are, maybethey're, hopefully they're doing
it, but they're not.
They're not really doing the,the the real specific, detailed
work and running the scenariosand giving the different options
(36:19):
and scenarios that somebodylike you would be able to do and
be able to give them that.
What are some of?
What are some of the?
We keep talking about cashflow,which I think is really good
because it's just, it's justhuge.
Really good because it's justhuge If you get yourself into
just a situation where you justdon't have any money, you can't
(36:41):
have a life, and if you can'thave a life, you can't take care
of your kids and you're not ina good space and it just becomes
awful.
What are some things that yousee that get missed?
Maybe expenses, stuff?
Is there one or two or fivethings that you see that just
really get missed?
Attorneys don't think of that.
You don't think of that isreally important.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Well.
So one of the meetings that Ihave with clients is we go over
budgets in great detail and Ihave a budget worksheet that we
look at.
So people don't my budgetworksheet will prompt them to
think of all sorts of expensesthat they may you know.
Otherwise they're just going towhat's the mortgage, you know?
What's the taxes, what's theinsurance?
Here's my utilities.
We have a very detailed,miscellaneous section that will
(37:27):
go over things that people mightnot.
You know, I have a lot of guyswho don't account for haircuts.
I'm like, hey, don't you getyour hair cut?
So there's things that we putin there.
We do a lot of maintenance,things like that.
So people are, I mean, truly wethink of almost everything that
you.
So people will under budget.
They really do.
They will under budget whattheir true expenses are, and
(37:48):
that's where they're going tomiss their cashflow going
forward.
Another thing, too, is thatsometimes people will I've seen
this with a lot of my dadclients is they don't want to
accept spousal support becausethey have some, you know, maybe
moral reasons for it, or justthey don't like the idea of
(38:09):
receiving support.
And so I'll say to them listen,okay, maybe we could do a bio.
But how does that impact?
If you're going to refinance orassume the mortgage Now, you
may not be able to qualifybecause you're not seeing that
comingousal support or childsupport.
And I'm like, hey, listen, youwere used to living in a
(38:41):
household for many years withthat type of income.
There's nothing wrong withaccepting support.
In fact, it's going to help youand help your children.
So I mean, that's anotherpsychological question that we
will talk about.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Right, and that's becoming more and more common
these days with stay-at-homedads.
Do you see any disparity in thecourts as a witness or being
involved in this, between thespousal support that gets
ordered to stay-at-home dadsversus stay-at-home moms?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, because, at least within the state of Colorado,
which is predominantly where Ido most of my work although I
can do work in any state it'sbased on a couple of things.
So it's based on the personwho's going to pay, their
ability to pay, but you alsohave to show the need for the
support.
There are formulas that you canuse.
In fact I go to court a lot onspousal support calculations.
(39:42):
A lot of the reasons I go as anexpert witness is doing income
determination of privatebusiness owners and so spousal
support, child support.
There's statutes surroundingwhat is included in an income
and, believe me, the tax returnis a starting point.
I tell that to judges all thetime.
It is not an ending point andthere's all sorts of reasons why
(40:04):
the tax return is not a goodindication of final income.
In fact, I've done continuingeducation for judges within the
state of Colorado.
For judges within the state ofColorado.
They're, again, lovely people,but they did not go to college
for accounting and finance.
Most of them went for politicalscience, history.
I've had judges, even ineducation classes, say I don't
(40:27):
even know the difference betweengross and net profit.
So it's an education.
As an expert witness, I alwaysfeel like I'm there to help
educate the judges in thefinancial.
You know, there to help educatethe judges, to help paint the
financial story of my client.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, that's a really , really terrific point, because
what so many people don'tunderstand particularly if you
are going to be in a highconflict divorce is that it is
then incumbent upon you todemonstrate or to argue your
(41:02):
reasons why you feel thatwhatever you're arguing is the
case.
And I don't think so manypeople know or understand.
They think, oh yeah, well,we'll just look at tax returns
or we'll just look at thestatements or the balances and
then we can just split those.
(41:23):
They don't know.
And then they don't know andthe attorneys don't know and the
judges don't know, and thenthis is just like the blind
leading.
Honestly, it is like the blindleading the blind.
Sometime in some of these courtcases, and I'm sure I'm sure
you've got lots and lots ofstories, but you just sit there
(41:43):
and go.
I just can't believe thatnobody on either side has like
paid attention to any of thisstuff and it just just they kind
of.
It's almost like, hey, we justcheck the box, we check the box,
we check the box, we check thebox, we check the box and you're
divorced.
And then that gets to likewhere I said, some of them.
You look back and you're like,okay, I'm not gonna say why?
(42:04):
Why did you do that?
Because you lost tens ofthousands of dollars.
But I don't want to, I don'twant to rub salt in the wound
already.
So so it it goes back to whatwe always say in the show.
It is incumbent upon you to knowto understand the statutes.
You mentioned the statutesaround child support and then
also spousal support as well.
Most states it is by statute, soit's just going to be that
(42:31):
dollar amount, right is where itcan get iffy If it is
particularly business orself-reported income.
Right, there's write-offs etcetera that go into tax returns.
So if your attorney doesn'tknow how to read a tax return,
which most of them don't, thenthey have no idea how to add
(42:53):
some of that stuff back in andget to really what their
salaries are, what their incomesare, so that those statute,
those state statute numbers arereally really accurate.
And so, again, a reason why youneed to have somebody like
Tammy to be, even if it's justsimple you have a house, you
(43:13):
have a retirement fund, someinvestments, and one of you has
a business.
You need somebody to look atthose business tax returns or
tax returns, however they filethem, to know that there's
actually this the income isappropriate and you're both
getting well.
Hopefully you're workingtogether, you're both getting
set up the right way, but ifyou're arguing about it that the
(43:34):
income's imputed the right way,right, yeah, with regard to the
finances too, it's disclosureright.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
There's certainly statements.
People are required to dodisclosure of assets and
liabilities.
However, someone can bedishonest and not disclose some
bank account they have or someinvestment they have, and that's
part of the forensic accountingthat we do.
Again, that's not every client,not everybody has that need,
but we know how to look at taxreturns, how to look for missing
(44:05):
assets or how to look at bankstatements to see if funds are
going a particular direction.
Are there missing bank accountsthat are not being reported?
So, yes, you have to showstatements to the other side,
but that doesn't mean thatsomeone's going to show you all
their statements, and so wecertainly can help people find
that information.
Although, like I said, that'sunder super high conflict
(44:26):
divorces Most of our work thatwe do is not super high conflict
.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Right, but yeah, there's ways to see gaps, right.
That just don't make sense.
And then you go hmm, I wonderwhy that is, and you dig a
little bit further.
But yeah, like you said, agreewith this, don't go through
something like that.
It's the small percentage,unfortunately it's a small
percentage that we hear about orwe see on the news or gets all
the press and the media aboutthis stuff, but it's usually
(45:08):
people get through this amicablyand figure this out.
So any last pearls of wisdom,thoughts, ideas that you can
share with the dads.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
You know, I've actually worked with clients who
are CPAs or who have a vastknowledge regarding finances or
accounting, and they still cometo me for advice.
Because what I said before,which is not everybody
understands all the nuanceswithin the statutes regarding or
surrounding divorce, I thinkit's actually very helpful to
have experts come in and helpguide you through the process,
because they're going to thinkof things that you might not
(46:00):
think of.
Right, and I know almosteveryone that I talk to as well
as clients are like well, mysister's cousin's brother told
me this.
Right, you're like well, youknow that's you know that's not
the right information orwhatever, and so it's best to
really talk to professionals.
I mean, and honestly I've donethis just for my own kind of
(46:24):
like.
Looking at the clients I workwith, there's not a single
client I have worked with thatmy fee isn't paid 10 times over,
if not sometimes hundreds oftimes over.
I'm not kidding.
In things and advice that Igive them, that actually saves
them money in the end.
So don't be penny wise andpound foolish.
Divorce experts whether they'retherapists, coaches, financial
(46:46):
experts, anybody they really endup really helping you through
the process and then you're notmissing anything.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say Spend a little
bit of money up front, eventhough it's an uncertain.
It's really hard for guys,especially when it's uncertain
and they don't know, to spend alittle bit of money when they
don't know where the money'sgoing to be coming from or what
it is.
But you can save so much moneywith a coach, with a financial
(47:14):
analyst certified divorcefinancial analyst with a
certified divorce mortgagelender, with a therapist like,
get all that done, all thisstuff, the little bit of money
you're going to spend with Tammy, with me, with whomever, is
going to pay huge dividends,sometimes hundreds of I can
attest to hundreds of thousandsof dollars, if I would have put
(47:35):
my team together and didn'tspend over the next decade
hundreds of thousands of dollarshaving to be back in court and
fighting over stuff.
Right, you can literally savehundreds of thousands of dollars
by just spending a little bitof money upfront and getting
Tammy on board, getting a reporteven if it's just getting a
report from her, so that you cango forward, so that you know
(47:57):
100% you've put yourself in theposition, whatever position that
is, you might have options, butthe position that is going to
best suit you and your family.
So, tammy, where can thelisteners get a hold of you?
What's the website?
What's the best way to contactyou?
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Sure, so I'm with the Divorce Resource Center of
Colorado and so we are at trulylook that up, the Divorce
Resource Center of Colorado andit's wwwdrcofcoloradocom.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Okay, and just to be clear, you do work across the
country, depending on what it is, but you own the Divorce
Resource Center of Colorado, butshe's nationwide.
So, wherever you're at in thecountry, or probably really in
North America, because we've gotlots of Canadian listeners too
get a hold of Tammy, get thehelp that you need, that you
(48:54):
deserve.
This is one of the biggest ones, besides the attorney, besides
the coach.
Get a hold of Tammy and get aplan put together.
Tammy, thanks so much for beinghere.
I sincerely appreciate what youdo and maybe we'll have you back
on and talk, maybe in some morespecifics about, I think, the
retirement one I'd like to talkabout, like run some specific
(49:18):
numbers.
So people, really we could talkfor hours, but people could
know really when they like we'renot kidding, it's tens of
thousands, maybe hundreds ofthousands of dollars.
We're not kidding, we're notjust saying that to drum up
business.
We don't want you to lose money, we want your family to be set
in a good place going forward.
It's true, it is the absolutetruth.
(49:40):
So maybe we'll have you backand we'll chat some more.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Thank you.
I've really enjoyed speakingwith you today and I hope it's
been of help to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Absolutely.
Thanks so much.
Hello and welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for tuning inthis week.
I've got a tremendous expertthat is going to be talking to
us about all things financialduring divorce.
But before we jump in with her,let me welcome some of the new
members, as always, to theDivorced Advocate community.
(00:21):
Welcome to Cullen, Kelly andBrian.
If you are not a member of theDivorced Advocate community,
Welcome to Cullen, Kelly andBrian.
If you are not a member of theDivorced Advocate community yet,
get the support that youdeserve and need at the website,
at thedivorcedadvocatecom.
Wherever you're at in theprocess, whatever resources you
have, we have something therethat can help you out.
(00:41):
So check it out atthedivorcedadvocatecom.
All right, my guest today is ahighly, highly accomplished
professional with a unique blendof expertise in auditing,
business development, divorcemediation, asset tracing and
expert witness testimony.
(01:03):
She has served on two boards ofdirectors, authored two
award-winning books and holdsfour yes, four college degrees,
including two masters, with astrong foundation in accounting.
She's a graduate of theUniversity of Michigan and the
University of Wisconsin and isalso an engaging international
(01:24):
keynote speaker.
Her career highlights includedelivering a TEDx talk in Dallas
, Texas, and chairing a globalconference in Rome, Italy.
Please welcome Tammy Guns.
How are you doing, Tammy?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
I'm doing well.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
How are you today?
I am great, and that is someresume and I got to say to my
audience you come very highlyrecommended in the area that we
kind of operate in in thedivorce realm here.
So when we connected I waspretty excited to chat with you
and our previous chat did notdisappoint.
It was very exciting and we'vegot just a ton of stuff, as any
(02:04):
of the listeners can imagine, intalking about the financial
piece of divorce.
It is so.
It can be well one, it'semotionally charged, but it can
be so complex and complicatedsometimes as well.
So I'm really interested inchatting with you about that.
But before we jump into some ofthose more specifics, share a
(02:27):
little bit about yourself andwhy in the world would you want
to get into this complex worldof finances and emotional world
of divorce and worked withdivorce and divorcing couples?
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, I ended up getting into this space based on
having my own journey in it aswell.
So I mean, right out of collegeI worked at Arthur Anderson, I
did auditing and I've spent myentire career doing finance work
and accounting work.
But again, to me that was notas interesting as being able to
help people through a reallydifficult transition in their
(03:04):
life.
And so when I walked this pathmyself back in 2006, because I
was officially divorced back in2007, I just saw personally how
much you know divorce is really90% kids and finances and really
only 10% legal, and how thefinancial piece can make people
really afraid.
I know when I was going throughmy divorce, I'd wake up at two
(03:28):
o'clock in the morning scared,very scared for what my life was
going to look like and so Iactually really enjoy the work
that I do.
I know when I say I go tococktail parties and I tell
people what I do, they kind ofcringe but I say no.
I feel very honored to be ableto help people go through a
divorce.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, so instead of getting another degree in law,
you decided to go the wholedivorce route, which is, I think
and it's unfortunate that weget the dads that come to us
after the fact that just did nothave somebody like you that was
able to take them through theprocess during the divorce,
during temporary orders orpost-nups, and then through
final orders and then settingtheir lives up for success after
, and that just puts you so farbehind the eight ball.
(04:28):
And the unfortunate thing isthat so many people, even if
they aren't in financial straits, after experiencing that they
don't even know how much moneythey have either left on the
table or lost because they justwent through and split it down
the middle and had all kinds oftax implications or couldn't get
(04:49):
an assumption done, or they'rerefinanced on, or had to wait
years and like so many differentthings that they don't even
know.
And oftentimes I don't even sayanything right, because you
don't want to just add rub saltin the wound.
But that's what I want to talkto you today is to just get this
information out there to thedads listening and why it is so
(05:11):
incredibly important we talk onthis show a lot about creating
your divorce team that they'rethe divorce coach.
They're the ones going to haveto run this.
The attorney is one player onthat team, maybe a very
important one right Aquarterback or running back, but
I would say the next mostimportant one is going to be a
financial analyst.
Well, you're a certifieddivorce financial analyst and
(05:39):
there's a difference and we'regoing to talk about that too as
to financial planners and whatthey can and can't and their
expertise and what you will beable to do to help them.
So let's just start out.
It becomes obvious that there'sgoing to be a change in your
finance when you're goingthrough divorce.
What is one of the first thingsyou would tell a dad when money
(05:59):
moves?
What they should do when theyfigure out that divorce is
imminent?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, certainly, gathering all of your
information right, All of yourdocuments.
They're required anyway underthe statutes for disclosure.
So you want to know all of yourassets and all of your
liabilities.
So we always start with themarital balance sheet because
that can impact depending onwhich assets you receive it can
impact your cash flow.
So we always start there.
About half of the work I do I domediation, so I'm working with
(06:31):
both spouses through the divorce.
And then the other half of thework I do litigation support, so
I'm working with one spouse.
So I always say I meet clientswhere they are.
But no matter what client I'mworking with, I'm always going
to start with the maritalbalance sheet and one of the
(06:51):
important aspects is we walkthrough everything, such as tell
me your goals, what are youwanting?
Do you want the marital home?
Do you not want the maritalhome?
So we can start to kind of forma plan of what things look like
.
But I also will talk to peoplethrough the process regarding
liquidity and tax implications,because sometimes people think
they're trading a dollar for adollar, when they're really
trading a dollar for maybe 60cents or 85 cents, right, so we
(07:14):
literally every single asset.
I'll ask them if they know thebasis.
Sometimes people don't evenknow what basis is.
I'll explain that to them andthen I look at are there future
tax implications with thisparticular asset that you're
receiving?
But that's only part of thestory.
What I tell people when I workwith them is sometimes, when you
meet with me, you may have morequestions than answers, but I
(07:35):
promise you through the processthat we will get to the final
answer as far as what makessense from an asset base,
liability base as well as cashflow.
So we need all of thatinformation because sometimes
someone really wants a maritalhome but we talk through it like
can you assume the loan?
Or, if not, how do yourefinancing?
(07:56):
Do you need to buy out theother person?
Can we do this as a deferredasset?
So we literally talk aboutthings.
I always say I'm not just hereto get you a divorce, because
anyone can do that.
Right, you can get someone toan agreement.
I'm here to get you where itmakes sense for you post-decree,
so that you have the leastamount of conflict and you have
(08:17):
thought through everything.
We do not leave any stoneunturned when we go through the
process, so that people have avery wide perspective.
And it's interesting, peopleanswer their own questions,
because I ask them a lot ofquestions about what assets they
want and then once they see thewhole thing and they see the
cash flow, they're like, oh,this doesn't make sense anymore,
(08:38):
and so they really do answertheir own questions in the end.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Right.
So I see this quite often ifone of the dads has not been the
one that is handling thefinances, paying the bills, that
it's absolutely imperative tostart figuring out.
Hopefully it's amicably, whereyou can be working with your
soon-to-be ex and getting andcompiling this information, but
(09:08):
if it's not, it is crucial thatyou start getting a handle on
and figuring out what is goingon with your finances, where
money's at what's getting paid,like everything so that is and
start to create a system towhere you're able to keep that
(09:28):
at Google Drive or somethingelse, that you're then able to
pull this information becauseyou're going to need this
throughout the entire process.
Right, they're going to talk toyou first to hopefully get help
and sorting it all out andunderstanding, maybe a game plan
, but then they're going to needit for their attorneys and then
their their attorneys, and thatmight be, depending on the
(09:50):
length of the divorce, right,that that can be years sometimes
.
That's going to get updated andthen you're going to have to
update it with the court, withyour attorney and with the court
.
So, get a filing system, getall your stuff in a pile and and
and get it all ready so thatthen you can take it to Tammy.
And then the next thing youtalked about, which was kind of
(10:10):
what I alluded to in thebeginning, which is then looking
at this stuff, have you talk,maybe a little bit more in
detail?
We could talk about this forhours and talk about all the
situations and how they canmaximize their taxes, et cetera,
(10:33):
which I don't want to do.
That's why I want them to callyou right or call a CDFA, but
let's talk about that, becauseeven with, let's say, you've got
a house which is an asset andsome retirement stuff, there are
some significant tax thingsthat you can do when, like you
just alluded to and maybe we cangive an example of, just a
(10:56):
brief example of, say, one ofthe two would like to well,
let's just use it.
Okay, the dad wants to be ableto keep the house right, and so
he wants to finance.
Or, let's say, he wants to doan assumption, but then he's
going to have to pay outwhatever that equity is, and so,
(11:20):
let's say, there's retirementfunds, and then he's thinking
about maybe offsetting that.
Let's talk about a scenario likethat and how they can save
money by talking to you, asopposed to just saying, okay,
well, we're just going to splitit, or we're going to split
those assets and then he'd takeout the retirement funds.
They get a penalty on them andthen he gives that to the other
(11:41):
person or whatever crazy thingthat might.
I mean, I'm sure you've seenI've seen crazy stuff from going
.
Why would you do that?
You just gave the governmentlike tens of thousands of
dollars.
That's stupid.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Right.
So one of the things when welook at who wants the house in
this case, you said that the dadwanted the house.
So, we'll say, okay, well, youknow.
I want to know the basis.
I want to know if he is goingto have a future tax implication
Currently.
Of course, tax laws can change,but currently there's a
(12:14):
$250,000 exclusion per person,and so if he receives, you end
up in a divorce, you're subjectto what is called 1041 exchange
rules.
It's an IRS statute that saysyou receive assets in a divorce.
There's no tax implication atthe time of that.
However, once you go to sell it, then you have to pay the taxes
.
So I'd want to know, especiallyin the most recent years, houses
(12:34):
have gone way up in value andso there could be a capital gain
, and again, that capital gaincould be anywhere between 15 and
20%.
Again, this is based on 2025tax rules.
These could change at anymoment.
Now, if they're going to nownot have a retirement fund or
exchange that to the otherspouse.
Certainly there's two differentthings.
(12:54):
Number one I'd want to knowabout liquidity, right?
Because if the other spouse islooking to also purchase a condo
or a townhouse, you would wantto say, okay, well, how can they
get some liquidity IRAs?
If they are moved over to aspouse?
You really can't cash them inuntil you're 59 and a half
without penalty.
However, a 401k you can.
(13:17):
So there's a one-time exclusion.
You have to have what's called aqualified domestic relations
order that will move the 401kover.
However, 401ks will allow youto have an election.
It's a one-time election andyou must do it at the time that
you're getting the 401k movedover into your name.
You're able to take that out ascash and that way, that person
(13:40):
could have the cash to be ableto buy a house or, like I said,
or a condo or use it for livingexpenses.
Now, they don't have the 10%penalty if they're less than 59
and a half.
However, they would have to payordinary income taxes.
So sometimes what we do youknow certainly if I was with the
dad I wouldn't point that outto the spouse that, hey, if
(14:00):
you're going to take thatqualified domestic relations
order, you're going to take that401k that there would be a tax
implication as far as they'regoing to have to pay ordinary
income taxes on it.
However, for my clients I'mgoing to point that out I'm
going to say listen, if you'regoing to be the one receiving
that 401k, ask for a true up.
Ask for, if you were going totake $100,000 and you want to
take it cash, ask for $120,.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Right, true up.
So basis is what the value isright, just to be clear for
those listening.
And then the true up is thatyou're making considerations for
what those tax implications areso you can have a true net of,
let's say, if it's $100,000,you're getting $110,000 because
(14:48):
there's 10% whatever 10% taximplication on there.
So you're going to true that,obviously, if they're working
together, hopefully they'retalking about this in an
amicable manner and trying tohelp each other to offset any of
this.
But again, like you said, ifit's contentious you're just
trying, you're not trying to getover, but you're setting
yourself up as much as you canto do what's the best thing.
(15:12):
So then, to summarize what yousaid was so with the IRAs,
there's nothing you can do.
Those get either transferred orthey get split and there's
penalties and taxes on it andthere's you can do the QDROs,
right, the QDRO which is.
(15:35):
Then they can do the one-timetransfer.
So say, the dad's assuming theloan, which is a whole other
thing which we did.
We just did an episode lastweek or two weeks ago with Carla
on how to do assumptions andthe complications around that.
But they are doable, and one ofthe things was whether
(15:58):
assumption is good or not, orpossible or not, is if there is
equity that needs to be paid tothe other spouse, and so this
401k is an option to be able todo that without having to pay
any of those penalties.
And so that's and this is.
(16:18):
I just wanted to use one examplelike this because I see and
it's just because you don't knowwhat you don't know right,
because when I went through it12 years ago, I didn't know.
You probably did, becauseyou're an accountant and you
have accounting money I know,when we talked to Carla, one of
the things that she was gratefulfor was that she had her
(16:41):
mortgage background and she knewwhat she could and couldn't do
with the mortgage and was ableto finagle some of this stuff.
But attorneys do not know aboutso much of this stuff and we
just see them like, okay,looking at the balance, they'll
get their financial disclosuresand they'll just go okay, well,
you're going to get half of that, and then you're going to have
(17:02):
whatever that penalty is, and itis such a huge, huge mistake.
So that's hopefully thatexample that you just provided
helps those listening tounderstand that, hey, you've
really got yourself up andeverybody up for the best
possible outcomes, because thisis a simple math equation.
(17:37):
Even non-accountant dummies likeme, who got a D in accounting
in college, can look at thismath equation and say one
household into two means moreexpenses and same income,
probably, and so if you're notpaying attention to that, it
makes it.
(17:57):
You can put I see people allthe time put themselves in
financial straits and it doesn'thave to be that way.
So you can be smart bycontacting somebody before you
talk to the attorney or whileyou're talking to the attorney.
So what is one of the biggestmistakes that you see dads
(18:19):
running into when they do,outside of the one that I just
described?
Are there any other bigmistakes that you see happening
when couples are divorcing froma financial standpoint?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah, they don't look at their future cash flow, and
that's what I do with everysingle one of my clients,
because if someone wants thehouse, maybe they'll qualify
from the bank's perspective, themortgage lending institution's
perspective.
However, when they look at allof their expenses, or especially
if they have children andthere's extracurricular
activities and whatnot andbraces, they're not looking at
(18:54):
their cash flow.
So they may make a decision totake the marital home, give up a
part of their retirement andthen maybe a year down the road,
they end up selling that homeand now they're going to have
again.
They could potentially have acapital gain and now they're
going to buy a much smaller homebecause they just realized that
they could not afford it.
You know, there's nothing worse, I think, than being house poor
(19:15):
.
I think a lot of people want tohang on their homes because of
the.
they think it's stability forthe children.
And let me tell you, kids areresilient, right?
Kids can.
In fact, I always say it's muchbetter for the kids to go
through a major life event likethis under your tutelage, where
you're able to hold them andtalk to them and wipe away their
(19:36):
tears.
And then, when they go off tocollege someday or they're an
adult someday and they facechallenges it's not the first
challenge they've ever faced andso I think kids are far more
resilient than people givethemselves credit for or give
the kids credit for, and sothey'll try to hang on to a
marital home when it justdoesn't make sense financially.
I'm sure the kids would muchprefer that you live comfortably
(19:59):
where you can pay all of yourbills, versus being stressed out
constantly about making thosepayments.
And so, like I said, there'snot a client I work with that I
don't work with them on futurecash flow projections to make
sure the decisions they'remaking make sense.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, that's huge, because so often you know, in my
case we had remodeled the houseand I got it exactly how I
wanted it and there's so muchemotion that goes into it.
And one of the things you likeyou said and obviously you've
(20:35):
been through this right Is thething the thing with the kids
and you're worried about thekids.
You don't want to disrupt thekids, but we talk about it all
the time here how resilient theyare, that this is an
opportunity whether you can seeit right now for you to be able
to demonstrate and model forkids getting through a difficult
and challenging time and andyour point also, which is
(20:57):
tremendous that you're alsothere to help them through a
difficult and challenging time.
So not only you're modelingyour that for them and they see
you and how you're reacting, butyou're able to to nurture them
through it, which is a a huge,huge thing, huge thing.
But the cash flow thing isreally, really something it
seems like there's usually oneor the other, and I don't know
(21:20):
if this is your experience ornot, or if you find that men or
women tend to be just moreattached and less aware of the
cash flow side of this, because,because it, it, man, it is.
It is so awful when one or theother parent is, like you said,
(21:42):
just clinging to say thismortgage, that is just, it's
going to be ridiculouslyexpensive, even if they can
refinance it.
Just to do that.
How do you cut through some ofthat emotion?
Let's say, because we get guysthat are emotional about it, we
get women that are emotional.
I would posit that womensometimes get more emotional
(22:05):
about it and look at it maybeless of a business transaction,
but you do this more.
So how do you cut through thatand try to help them to move in
a direction that you know isgoing to be financially better
for them?
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Well, like I said, a lot of our process, people end
up answering their own questions.
So I'm like okay, so you wantthe home.
And then I'll say, let's gothrough your budget.
What is that new payment goingto look like?
And oh, by the way, you know,do you need?
You're going to change yourhealth insurance policy and now
your insurance is going to go upon your cars or maybe you're.
There's a lot of expenses theydon't think about right and so
(22:40):
maybe they have a plan, togetherwith a family, for phones.
Now I'm going to okay, nowyou're going to have to pay for
that on your own.
So we go through all of thethings I don't tell people hey,
listen, you shouldn't keep thishome or you shouldn't keep this
asset.
I'll go through and ask themwhat they're thinking.
We'll go through that process.
Then we'll go through theirexpenses and then, I look at
their income.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
I certainly look at everything Like are they going
to be paying support or are theygoing to be receiving support?
Then we get down there and I'llsay, okay, now, if you keep the
house, this is what it's goingto look like on a monthly cash
flow, you're only going to bepositive.
You know, $100.
What happens if you need newtires that month, right?
So then what happens is thenthe people will answer their own
(23:22):
questions of oh, this doesn'tmake sense, I don't think I
should keep the home.
Or if I do keep the home now, Ihave nothing in retirement.
I'm in my middle 40s.
What does that look like?
So I ask lots of questions ofmy clients.
I have, like I said, a processthat it seems to work for
everybody as far as then at theend they're like boy Tammy, I
(23:45):
don't think I want the homeanymore or I don't want this
asset.
So they really do answer theirown questions because it's what
they're comfortable with.
And I'll tell you, I think it'suniversal that people don't dig
this deep into their finances.
Most people don't have verygood budgets that they follow
and so it may seem rudimentary,but it's not.
It's actually key tounderstanding what things are
(24:08):
going to look like.
Or people could have ahistorical knowledge of their
budgets, but we want to do aforward-looking budget so that
they understand what is it goingto really look like tomorrow,
not yesterday.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right.
So basically, I feel likeyou're describing to me as
financial therapy.
You're sitting and asking themquestions and they're answering
questions and they're kind ofcoming to it by speaking out
loud to what you're asking themand finally making their
conclusions like, yeah, I'm notgoing to be able to go on that
(24:44):
girls or guys trip because I'mnot going to have any money or
even, like you said, just beable to buy a new set of tires
or if the car breaks down, orsomething like that.
I think that's brilliant.
When you're working with andthis would be different maybe in
the different scenarios thatyou discuss, whether it's the
couple together or one of theindividuals how long does it
(25:07):
usually take you to sit downwith them, go through that and
let's just use just a scenariowhere they have a house, maybe
some retirement, becauseobviously if you build in
businesses and other largerassets or stuff like that,
that's things do the financialtherapy with them and then come
up with a plan for them thatthey can take to their attorney
(25:36):
and implement it.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
Well, when I do mediation and I'm working with
both spouses, it tends to be youknow, I meet with them for two
hours at a time and we usuallymeet every other week, so we can
go through an entire divorce insix weeks about.
I don't like to rush it becauseI want people to be able to
digest the information thatwe're talking about, because
(25:59):
they're making decisions for therest of their life.
You know you don't get to sayoops with the court.
No, now I've decided I don'twant this asset.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
But with an individual client, when we're
going through things anywherebetween four and six hours, but
I don't like to meet with peoplefor more than two hours at a
time because I want them to beable to truly understand what
we're talking about.
I realize that emotions and theability to comprehend are an
inverse relationship, so thehigher the emotions, the less
(26:27):
people are able to comprehend.
I don't care if you're Einstein, it's going to work that same
way.
So, as we all know, goingthrough a divorce, it's a high
emotional period of time, and sothat's why I want to be able to
talk through things so peopletruly understand this is their
life, it is not my life, and Isay that all the time to my
clients.
I'm like I am here to help you,I'm here to serve you and your
(26:54):
needs, and this is not my life.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
I want you to be comfortable with this decision
Right, and I wanted to clarifysomething that you said there
too.
So you do mediation for couples,but you also do just a plan for
couples or individuals that arejust going through this process
, so that they can either takeit together, like I said in the
(27:18):
beginning, to their respectiveattorneys and hopefully it's
amicable and then presented tothe court and then the court
approves it, or, if it is a highconflict, then that's their
plan that they're fighting forand arguing maybe, and then I
know that you're also an expertwitness around some of that
stuff too.
So so you do both of thosethings which are which are which
(27:39):
are different, but and I'd wantto emphasize also that that
plan part of it because that'sthe one that I I don't see
happening enough, even if it isamicable with couples, that it
is huge to find somebody to.
I'm just going to beat this todeath this entire time.
It's already half hour but it'shuge to have somebody and I'm
(28:01):
sure you agree with me to lookat that up front.
That is so, so important.
So, on the emotions part, somedads feel the financial system
in divorce is stacked againstthem.
I'm not going to get into thedetails of that, but from your
CDFA perspective, how can theyprepare so the settlement will
(28:26):
be fair and sustainable for them?
So just kind of looking fromthe perspective of a dad here.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Well so, and my own brother went through a divorce,
and he went through a divorce avery, very long time ago, back
when the courts were not asfavorable for dads having 50%
custody of the children, and somy brother was kind of on the
cutting edge of getting 50%custody of his son when that was
just unheard of when he gotdivorced.
(28:54):
And so I have my own brotherwho is a huge advocate for
fathers in divorce.
I would say that sometimespeople will let guilt or their
own emotions kind of have themgo.
Well, she can just have that orshe can just do this, I don't
care.
And they'll almost give awaythe farm in order to commit
(29:17):
feeling guilty or other emotionsthat are involved.
And I always say listen, you'regoing through a high emotional
period of your life and don't dothat because you're going to
have to live after this.
And so that's where I alwaysbring them back to what's
happening on paper here.
What do we really see from,like I said, the asset
(29:38):
standpoint, the tax standpoint,the cash flow standpoint?
You know I want the dads to beable to have the financial
wherewithal to be able to dothings with their kids and take
their kids on vacation.
So I think sometimes I've seenthat happen, where people will
let truly guilt get in the wayof good decision-making, because
you know what I always tellpeople when I meet with them.
(29:59):
Listen, most states areno-fault states.
I think actually there's nostate in the United States that
isn't so.
What happened or transpired inthe marriage is really not my
business.
I'm here to help you goingforward, so don't let those
emotions from the past cloudyour decision-making going
forward.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Right.
So that's where it's importantto get a therapist on your team
or a coach or both, so thatyou're not and I can relate to
that.
It was just, I was, finally, Ijust wanted this done, and I
don't really care what it lookslike and that was a huge, huge
mistake, because I got worn downand I did not do what we're
(30:42):
talking about today and I didnot get a coach and a therapist
to be able to help me build theskills to deal with the emotions
, to deal with everything thatwas coming up.
So that's great and that'scompletely non-financial advice,
right, which is learn, do whatyou need to do to get through.
It's going to be even in themost amicable divorces, there's
(31:04):
a huge amount of emotional,mental, emotional weight that
goes through this, and then thefinances are.
That seems to be the thing thatreally in like, uh, supercharge
those, those emotions and andfeelings right, that's like you
said, just make you lay up atnight and stressed out and
(31:25):
worrying and and make everythingmuch more, much more difficult.
So that's, uh, that good.
That wasn't exactly the answerI was expecting, but that makes
perfect sense.
Yeah, that's great.
You're, you're like, you'retruly like a financial therapist
, in addition to certified tothe North's financial answers.
Right, there's so muchpsychology and mental, emotional
(31:46):
issues that that go into it.
It's, it's something I probablyyou know until this
conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
I do realize it, but, like the work that you've got
to do in order to cut throughsome of that is is pretty
immense.
Yes, I mean, and I I want tomake sure that you know people
are understanding what's goingon, like you said, because I do
see people becoming weary in theend and I'm like listen, you
know I'm here to help you andsupport you through the end so
that you don't make a decisionthat you're going to regret
later on.
And even so, you know you hadmentioned that.
(32:17):
You know here, because of mybackground in accounting, that I
must have known this stuffgoing through my divorce.
No, because there's nuances.
You know, in college I didn'tlearn about divorce, right, I
didn't learn about the nuances.
So there's things that reallymy training as a certified
divorce financial analyst havetrained me to understand things
(32:38):
from a divorce perspective.
Some of the statutes that are,you know, different.
The states are different,whether you're a community
property state or not.
So there's a lot of nuancesthat have, you know, really
nothing to do with finance andaccounting and so they're really
specific to divorce.
So you don't want to just talkto your CPA that does your taxes
.
They're certainly an importantperson to ask questions of, but
they're not going to see thewhole picture.
(32:58):
Same with the financial planner.
They have a certain expertise,but they're not necessarily
familiar with all of the divorcenuances and the statutes that
surround that.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Right, so let's talk about that.
That's a good segue to what wealluded to a little bit earlier
is the you might have afinancial planner, which is
great.
Hopefully you do.
They've helped you create abudget.
They've helped you get to thepoint that you're at now with
your assets and your retirementand investments and everything
else.
That's that's really tremendous.
(33:32):
That's really tremendous.
But why and and I you said it,but I want you to say it again
right, why talk to you insteadof and I get, I get this all the
time yeah, I've got a financialplanner.
I'm like, okay, and I do do thesame thing.
And when I'm coaching guys,coaching the dads, I say that's
great, but there are nuances andand you take it from there,
(33:54):
what like?
Why?
Why do they need to come to youinstead of just their financial
planner?
And maybe you have an exampleof one that just did not work
out well with their financialplanner.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, I've actually, and again, financial planners
are wonderful professionals andthey have a great role that they
serve.
But I will tell you, I've haddifferent people come to me,
many cases not just one where afinancial planner is helping to
try to propose a settlement andI will say what's wrong with it
and for all the particularreasons Some of it has to do
with support purposes they'relike, well, this can happen and
(34:27):
I'll say, well, that's nevergoing to fly.
In court Again, I always tellpeople I'm going to offer you my
professional opinion.
I don't offer legal advicebecause I'm not an attorney.
However, I know from being incourt as an expert witness what
will fly and what won't.
And so a lot of financialplanners very good hearted
people will propose somethingthat I'm like that won't work,
(34:48):
or this is going to mess uptheir liquidity, or you didn't
look at their future cash flow.
They're really looking at itperhaps from an asset under
management perspective orwhatnot.
There are definitely peoplethat when I'm working with
clients, I'll say these are aprofessional you may want to
talk to about a certainparticular aspect of it, but not
the overall picture, becausethey're going to miss things
(35:11):
because they're not familiarwith the statutes, whereas CDFAs
are.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Right.
Well, and another thing thatyou're being kind enough not to
say, but I will, is that theymight have a different
perspective on why they wantthose assets to stay with them
and not get transferred to theother spouse or cashed out or
put into a hire or somethingelse like that.
And that's not to say thatanybody's doing things
(35:38):
disingenuously, but, hey,there's human nature that is
involved in this whole processtoo.
So, and that's just in additionto the fact that they don't
know all the nuances goingthrough that they're really
looking at a.
The way that I see it isthey're just looking at a
snapshot of of right now.
(35:58):
Right, they're not.
They're not looking both downthe road and all the what's
going to happen in college.
And maybe they are, maybethey're, hopefully they're doing
it, but they're not.
They're not really doing the,the the real specific, detailed
work and running the scenariosand giving the different options
(36:19):
and scenarios that somebodylike you would be able to do and
be able to give them that.
What are some of?
What are some of the?
We keep talking about cashflow,which I think is really good
because it's just, it's justhuge.
Really good because it's justhuge If you get yourself into
just a situation where you justdon't have any money, you can't
(36:41):
have a life, and if you can'thave a life, you can't take care
of your kids and you're not ina good space and it just becomes
awful.
What are some things that yousee that get missed?
Maybe expenses, stuff?
Is there one or two or fivethings that you see that just
really get missed?
Attorneys don't think of that.
You don't think of that isreally important.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Well.
So one of the meetings that Ihave with clients is we go over
budgets in great detail and Ihave a budget worksheet that we
look at.
So people don't my budgetworksheet will prompt them to
think of all sorts of expensesthat they may you know.
Otherwise they're just going towhat's the mortgage, you know?
What's the taxes, what's theinsurance?
Here's my utilities.
We have a very detailed,miscellaneous section that will
(37:27):
go over things that people mightnot.
You know, I have a lot of guyswho don't account for haircuts.
I'm like, hey, don't you getyour hair cut?
So there's things that we putin there.
We do a lot of maintenance,things like that.
So people are, I mean, truly wethink of almost everything that
you.
So people will under budget.
They really do.
They will under budget whattheir true expenses are, and
(37:48):
that's where they're going tomiss their cashflow going
forward.
Another thing, too, is thatsometimes people will I've seen
this with a lot of my dadclients is they don't want to
accept spousal support becausethey have some, you know, maybe
moral reasons for it, or justthey don't like the idea of
(38:09):
receiving support.
And so I'll say to them listen,okay, maybe we could do a bio.
But how does that impact?
If you're going to refinance orassume the mortgage Now, you
may not be able to qualifybecause you're not seeing that
comingousal support or childsupport.
And I'm like, hey, listen, youwere used to living in a
(38:41):
household for many years withthat type of income.
There's nothing wrong withaccepting support.
In fact, it's going to help youand help your children.
So I mean, that's anotherpsychological question that we
will talk about.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
Right, and that's becoming more and more common
these days with stay-at-homedads.
Do you see any disparity in thecourts as a witness or being
involved in this, between thespousal support that gets
ordered to stay-at-home dadsversus stay-at-home moms?
Speaker 2 (39:18):
No, because, at least within the state of Colorado,
which is predominantly where Ido most of my work although I
can do work in any state it'sbased on a couple of things.
So it's based on the personwho's going to pay, their
ability to pay, but you alsohave to show the need for the
support.
There are formulas that you canuse.
In fact I go to court a lot onspousal support calculations.
(39:42):
A lot of the reasons I go as anexpert witness is doing income
determination of privatebusiness owners and so spousal
support, child support.
There's statutes surroundingwhat is included in an income
and, believe me, the tax returnis a starting point.
I tell that to judges all thetime.
It is not an ending point andthere's all sorts of reasons why
(40:04):
the tax return is not a goodindication of final income.
In fact, I've done continuingeducation for judges within the
state of Colorado.
For judges within the state ofColorado.
They're, again, lovely people,but they did not go to college
for accounting and finance.
Most of them went for politicalscience, history.
I've had judges, even ineducation classes, say I don't
(40:27):
even know the difference betweengross and net profit.
So it's an education.
As an expert witness, I alwaysfeel like I'm there to help
educate the judges in thefinancial.
You know, there to help educatethe judges, to help paint the
financial story of my client.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Yeah, that's a really , really terrific point, because
what so many people don'tunderstand particularly if you
are going to be in a highconflict divorce is that it is
then incumbent upon you todemonstrate or to argue your
(41:02):
reasons why you feel thatwhatever you're arguing is the
case.
And I don't think so manypeople know or understand.
They think, oh yeah, well,we'll just look at tax returns
or we'll just look at thestatements or the balances and
then we can just split those.
(41:23):
They don't know.
And then they don't know andthe attorneys don't know and the
judges don't know, and thenthis is just like the blind
leading.
Honestly, it is like the blindleading the blind.
Sometime in some of these courtcases, and I'm sure I'm sure
you've got lots and lots ofstories, but you just sit there
(41:43):
and go.
I just can't believe thatnobody on either side has like
paid attention to any of thisstuff and it just just they kind
of.
It's almost like, hey, we justcheck the box, we check the box,
we check the box, we check thebox, we check the box and you're
divorced.
And then that gets to likewhere I said, some of them.
You look back and you're like,okay, I'm not gonna say why?
(42:04):
Why did you do that?
Because you lost tens ofthousands of dollars.
But I don't want to, I don'twant to rub salt in the wound
already.
So so it it goes back to whatwe always say in the show.
It is incumbent upon you to knowto understand the statutes.
You mentioned the statutesaround child support and then
also spousal support as well.
Most states it is by statute, soit's just going to be that
(42:31):
dollar amount, right is where itcan get iffy If it is
particularly business orself-reported income.
Right, there's write-offs etcetera that go into tax returns.
So if your attorney doesn'tknow how to read a tax return,
which most of them don't, thenthey have no idea how to add
(42:53):
some of that stuff back in andget to really what their
salaries are, what their incomesare, so that those statute,
those state statute numbers arereally really accurate.
And so, again, a reason why youneed to have somebody like
Tammy to be, even if it's justsimple you have a house, you
(43:13):
have a retirement fund, someinvestments, and one of you has
a business.
You need somebody to look atthose business tax returns or
tax returns, however they filethem, to know that there's
actually this the income isappropriate and you're both
getting well.
Hopefully you're workingtogether, you're both getting
set up the right way, but ifyou're arguing about it that the
(43:34):
income's imputed the right way,right, yeah, with regard to the
finances too, it's disclosureright.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
There's certainly statements.
People are required to dodisclosure of assets and
liabilities.
However, someone can bedishonest and not disclose some
bank account they have or someinvestment they have, and that's
part of the forensic accountingthat we do.
Again, that's not every client,not everybody has that need,
but we know how to look at taxreturns, how to look for missing
(44:05):
assets or how to look at bankstatements to see if funds are
going a particular direction.
Are there missing bank accountsthat are not being reported?
So, yes, you have to showstatements to the other side,
but that doesn't mean thatsomeone's going to show you all
their statements, and so wecertainly can help people find
that information.
Although, like I said, that'sunder super high conflict
(44:26):
divorces Most of our work thatwe do is not super high conflict
.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Right, but yeah, there's ways to see gaps, right.
That just don't make sense.
And then you go hmm, I wonderwhy that is, and you dig a
little bit further.
But yeah, like you said, agreewith this, don't go through
something like that.
It's the small percentage,unfortunately it's a small
percentage that we hear about orwe see on the news or gets all
the press and the media aboutthis stuff, but it's usually
(45:08):
people get through this amicablyand figure this out.
So any last pearls of wisdom,thoughts, ideas that you can
share with the dads.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
You know, I've actually worked with clients who
are CPAs or who have a vastknowledge regarding finances or
accounting, and they still cometo me for advice.
Because what I said before,which is not everybody
understands all the nuanceswithin the statutes regarding or
surrounding divorce, I thinkit's actually very helpful to
have experts come in and helpguide you through the process,
because they're going to thinkof things that you might not
(46:00):
think of.
Right, and I know almosteveryone that I talk to as well
as clients are like well, mysister's cousin's brother told
me this.
Right, you're like well, youknow that's you know that's not
the right information orwhatever, and so it's best to
really talk to professionals.
I mean, and honestly I've donethis just for my own kind of
(46:24):
like.
Looking at the clients I workwith, there's not a single
client I have worked with thatmy fee isn't paid 10 times over,
if not sometimes hundreds oftimes over.
I'm not kidding.
In things and advice that Igive them, that actually saves
them money in the end.
So don't be penny wise andpound foolish.
Divorce experts whether they'retherapists, coaches, financial
(46:46):
experts, anybody they really endup really helping you through
the process and then you're notmissing anything.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say Spend a little
bit of money up front, eventhough it's an uncertain.
It's really hard for guys,especially when it's uncertain
and they don't know, to spend alittle bit of money when they
don't know where the money'sgoing to be coming from or what
it is.
But you can save so much moneywith a coach, with a financial
(47:14):
analyst certified divorcefinancial analyst with a
certified divorce mortgagelender, with a therapist like,
get all that done, all thisstuff, the little bit of money
you're going to spend with Tammy, with me, with whomever, is
going to pay huge dividends,sometimes hundreds of I can
attest to hundreds of thousandsof dollars, if I would have put
(47:35):
my team together and didn'tspend over the next decade
hundreds of thousands of dollarshaving to be back in court and
fighting over stuff.
Right, you can literally savehundreds of thousands of dollars
by just spending a little bitof money upfront and getting
Tammy on board, getting a reporteven if it's just getting a
report from her, so that you cango forward, so that you know
(47:57):
100% you've put yourself in theposition, whatever position that
is, you might have options, butthe position that is going to
best suit you and your family.
So, tammy, where can thelisteners get a hold of you?
What's the website?
What's the best way to contactyou?
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Sure, so I'm with the Divorce Resource Center of
Colorado and so we are at trulylook that up, the Divorce
Resource Center of Colorado andit's wwwdrcofcoloradocom.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Okay, and just to be clear, you do work across the
country, depending on what it is, but you own the Divorce
Resource Center of Colorado, butshe's nationwide.
So, wherever you're at in thecountry, or probably really in
North America, because we've gotlots of Canadian listeners too
get a hold of Tammy, get thehelp that you need, that you
(48:54):
deserve.
This is one of the biggest ones, besides the attorney, besides
the coach.
Get a hold of Tammy and get aplan put together.
Tammy, thanks so much for beinghere.
I sincerely appreciate what youdo and maybe we'll have you back
on and talk, maybe in some morespecifics about, I think, the
retirement one I'd like to talkabout, like run some specific
(49:18):
numbers.
So people, really we could talkfor hours, but people could
know really when they like we'renot kidding, it's tens of
thousands, maybe hundreds ofthousands of dollars.
We're not kidding, we're notjust saying that to drum up
business.
We don't want you to lose money, we want your family to be set
in a good place going forward.
It's true, it is the absolutetruth.
(49:40):
So maybe we'll have you backand we'll chat some more.
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Thank you.
I've really enjoyed speakingwith you today and I hope it's
been of help to your listeners.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
Absolutely.
Thanks so much.
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