Mental Health in the Lifestyle: Are We Okay?

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Content warning This episode includes discussions around
mental health challenges, substance use, and suicide
within the lifestyle community. Our guest Lindsay is a licensed
therapist with experience supporting ethical non
monogamous individuals and couples.
While this conversation is informed by professional
insight, it is not a substitute for professional mental health

(00:20):
care. The Down and Dirty Podcast does
not offer mental advice, treatment, or diagnosis.
If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health or
substance use, please seek help with a qualified professional or
reach out to a national support hotline.
We're having this conversation because these issues are real
and because our community deserves to talk about them

(00:41):
openly, without shame. Listeners discretion is at 5.
Prepare for a weekend of provocative fetish, glamour and
unapologetic kink on July 19th in St.
Paul, MN. Experience Rubber Ball USA, the
Midwest boldest night of latex fetish and uninhibited
expression. Whether you're drawn to the

(01:01):
stage performances, the dungeon play space, or the electric
energy of the crowd, Rubber BallUSA is going to give you exactly
what you deserve. Viv Platinum is already gone, so
don't wait. Grab Avip Gold and explore the
VIP dungeon. Visit rubberballusa.com to get
your tickets now. Join us Saturday.

(01:23):
June 21st for 50 Shades of Play,a Classy Affair, an exclusive
lifestyle event in Minneapolis. Inspired by the sensual energy
of 50 Shades of Grey, this nightinvites couples and singles to
dress to impress and explore their desires in a classy,
private setting. Expect seductive vibes, dancing,
drinks, and unforgettable connections.

(01:44):
Learn more and request approval.Go ahead and head to
couplesnextdoor.com and we'll see you there.
This episode of the Down and Dirty Podcast is sponsored by
Bondesk, your premier destination for upscale fetish
wear and kink essentials since 2013.
Exploremore@bondesk.com. So, Miss Doll, how are you?
It's been a while since we've talked.

(02:05):
I don't remember the last time Iactually saw you Mansion party.
Oh. Mansion Party.
OK, Mansion party. You know what, Mr. and.
Even that I know that was briefly.
Well, listen, here's what I'm going to tell you at the mansion
party. I remember before and at this
time I'm guessing the sleepy episode is out already.
People are home listening to thesleepy episode.
And on the sleepy episode you say one of your kinks.

(02:27):
I asked you guys a question. I said what are your kinks?
And you said one of your kinks is like basically orgy director?
Yes, so. You said that, so let me tell
you, I came to the room, I knocked on a door and I was
going to return something and I they open the door and they go
get in here and I walk in and I was just returning something.
I wasn't going over there to do anything.
And you go here, go there, you got your mount Army go.

(02:49):
There goes your chair, right over there.
And I. I did tell you to go to your
chair. Yeah, I went to my corner and I
sat there and as I'm watching the festivities go on, I'm just
like, I don't know if it was cool or creepy, but I was there.
But as I'm watching in the corner of the festival.
I'm pretty sure worked out for everyone in that room.

(03:09):
And I'm thinking through my head, I'm like, oh shit, this is
her kink. Like she just, what did they
call it when sleep was like, I domed you.
You domed to me. You were like, get over there in
your chair and. You listen.
That's what made. Me, I drink water.
It's sleepy, sad. It was all like full circle.

(03:29):
It was like coming to life and like real time of life, she
said. This picture does and I am very
sad right now. This is what I was thinking.
And that makes me giggle becauseuntil you said that I didn't
even. It didn't even click with.
Me. No.
It was so fast she couldn't haveclicked.
That. But now that you go, you say
that and I go back and I'm like,yeah, that's like telling him
drink your water. I was like, go sit in your chair

(03:51):
and you're like, OK, bye. I did not.
I would make money pass, go. I just went straight to the
chair, sat down, had a drink in my hand and did my thing.
And you enjoyed the festivities.I did.
I think there was. Anything and I.
Did my creepy thing over there. I don't think anything about it
was creepy all the. People were probably like and
then the creepy fucking professor.
Yeah, no, that's not what happened.

(04:12):
So you had fun at the mansion party?
Other than that I'm guessing. So do you guys go on like dates?
Sometimes you do and. Did you go on any dates between
like the mansion party and what will be the next party?
See This is why I asked this question.
I wonder this about people where'd.
You go. We went to a country bar.
I did some dancing mechanical. Boulder.

(04:34):
No, they should. You're allowed to have those.
In there we totally get on that legal.
Now I don't know that they are, but I think you just have to
have the proper like padding everywhere in order for that to
occur A. Guy, when you watch, there's
always some cowgirl that gets upthere with her Jean skirt on.
That rides all the way up to herwaist and yeah, and.

(04:56):
When she falls over highly. Wasted.
Oh yeah for sure. Those are actually my favorite
to watch. See that's.
Why? Because they think they're on.
They're all some hot shit tryingto find some guy so drunk and
there's no plaster drunk and then they get in like 2 rounds
and then they're holding on to it, falling sideways,

(05:16):
everything's riding up. People ask me all the time, like
when they're going on dates, like where would you take
somebody like on a first date oron a group date or things like
that. What is your suggestion?
Would you take somebody to a country western bar as a date
like you were meeting another couple?
Would you do it? Yeah.
I mean, if that was their, if that was their personality and

(05:38):
that was kind of like what they were into, usually we just end.
Up like you're you're the you'rethe person who is pushing this
along like you, you and the cowboy are like, all right, we
got to get this couple man we'vebeen Hemming and hawing.
That's just now where can we go that is going to put them in the
The vow is going to be fun. It's.
Going it definitely won't be there.
Okay, that's what I'm saying. Like where do you take people

(05:58):
when you're like you about to close this fucking deal?
A sports bar, Okay. And.
Why? Because usually they, well,
because they have the axe throwing and they have darts.
We found that that's something in particular a lot of couples
like to do is play darts or pool.
So anywhere where you have like those kinds of.
Things. Do you think it's more active?
It should be more activity basedon a date or do you think it

(06:20):
should be more like in a dark booth?
You know, canoe limit shit. I like the activity base because
it kind of puts everyone at easebut.
Also too, when it's activity based, you don't get that
intimate time for interaction. Like you don't get the time for
like getting a little kiss or getting a little finger rub or
something like that. The activity base becomes

(06:42):
competitive which also can fuck you up too.
My friends get to talking shit and you're like oh fuck you, you
know what I mean? People get mad you lose that
bowling, you didn't get no ass. I mean, again, if you do your
research with a couple that you're with, sometimes that's
what gets them going like. See I'm I'm torn.
I've done activity based stuff and I've also done the

(07:04):
canoodling. I would say like more so for
first date like and I'm not talking on a couple because me
and Nadine just had a conversation on the night she
goes remember that couple we went on a date with and I looked
at her like are you coming this decade?
Like when we go on a date with acouple but last summer we were
sitting here in the pool by herself and somebody texts us
like you want to listen to some music and me and her were just

(07:25):
sitting around like are you doing shit?
Come on. And we went and I forgot to
because we never go on dates. And when she said that, I was
like, are you talking when we lived in like another state?
But for that, it was cool. We went, we listened to music
and there was a lot of people around.
But I was saying like, for that's for couples, for if I'm
taking a young lady out on a date, just me and her.
I'm more canoodle dark corners. Oh well yeah, that makes that

(07:47):
would make more sense. I think that's what we should do
on here going forward. We should have when when Chuck
D's back, we should have 'cause he had probably got some weird
shit he's trying to do. On the first date.
Oh, I'm sure he does. The reason?
That man can tell. I'm sure he's done it all.
And then some way beyond. Your first date suggestions and
we could actually give some places maybe there you.

(08:08):
Go. Yeah, that's going.
To be a thing. We're on here.
Now that should be a thing. So today we have Lindsay with us
and she is a licensed therapist who works with Ian and lifestyle
folks. And tonight, we're talking
mental health, substance use, and what happens when things go
too far. And Lindsay is a friend of the
show she's been on before, correct?

(08:28):
Lindsay, not with me, but yes, another season, yes, that's what
I thought. Lindsay is used to these
environments. She's been around here before.
She's not a stranger. I am not good.
Thank you. Happy to be here.
Happy to talk about this topic. So thanks for having me again.
Introduce yourself, give a little background like what you
do. My name is Lindsay and I've,

(08:50):
I've been a therapist for 14 years now and I work with people
from all, I mean, all kinds of people with, you know,
different, there's different things that bring them to, to my
office for sure. I personally have been involved
in the lifestyle for four years.And so I've gotten to know

(09:11):
obviously a lot of people over that time.
And I've recently launched a a coaching business called
Pleasure Alchemy and I wanted toprovide an outlet for people do
be able to have these kind of conversations with a
professional. Now tell us a little bit about
you said pleasure. What?
What is Pleasure Alchemy? Pleasure.
Alchemy is my coaching business.Oh, I provide services.

(09:34):
What does that mean? Coaching is a little different
than than therapy and that it it, it doesn't go into kind of
the past like past trauma problems.
It's really more focused on the present and and helping couples
figure out where they want to goin, you know, in the, in the

(09:55):
lifestyle, whether that's the Poly lifestyle, the kink
lifestyle, or the swinging lifestyle, which are all fall
under the umbrella of ethical non monogamy or E&M.
What? I just learned.
Right. I'm taking notes over here.
Mental notes, mental notes. There's no.
Mental. I was going to say I don't see
you writing anything down. I don't know if you're talking
about taking notes, it's. Like a steel trap up here.

(10:19):
OK, I'll let you have that one, all right.
What mental health themes show up most often for people in open
relationships? I would say the same themes that
that show up in monogamous relationships.
I think the main difference in non monogamy is that it has, it
has a tendency to shine a big olfat spotlight and kind of speeds

(10:43):
up the problems that exist are already there and it just speeds
up sort of awareness to those problems or highlights them in a
much faster way than in a monogamous relationship.
So instead of being able to pushit under the rug, you obviously
have to bring everything out of Pandora's box basically on both
sides and be able to, yeah, after we discuss it.

(11:05):
Right. And it's not even sometimes you
don't even want it to come out of Pandora's box.
It just springs out and there itis.
Well Lizzie I have a question. So I've been to a therapist
before with one of my ex girlfriends.
Our guy was a gay guy named Kylethat was 25 years old and was
going to talk to us, a middle-aged couple with a

(11:26):
middle-aged third person, about our relationship and our
dynamic. And I just could not wrap my
goddamn mind around the fact that Kyle cannot possibly relate
to what I'm going through or what I'm about to tell Kyle.
So what I want to ask you is this as a therapist, what is
your experience in this lifestyle?
And because I would have to qualify you, I'm just saying I

(11:46):
would have to like before I would go into another therapy
office and go through more bullshit that I went through
with Kyle. I am going to say what does
this? What is this person's experience
level? So I want you to tell me if
you've been in it or do you think that I'm right or I'm
bullshit? You tell me.
Shut up, professor. I think it really depends on on

(12:07):
the person or the the couple or triad or however many people
show up in that room, right? And I say that because like, we
don't always have to have an experience as a therapist to
have empathy or understanding ofthat experience, but we do need
to be knowledgeable. And so, you know, not all

(12:27):
therapists or even coaches, right may have swinging
experience and that's OK, but they and they need to have a
position or an understanding of the components of, you know, non
monogamy as opposed to monogamy.So it's not going to work real
well. I believe if a therapist holds
more mononormative values and istrying to work with a couple

(12:51):
more a situation ship whatever that is non monogamous.
So what I heard was is that all therapists should have to go to
a white chocolate party first before they're able to affect
it. No, they need to have a third.
I think it's, it's a, they have to have an acceptance of it.
I that was kind of what I pulledfrom that and an acceptance that

(13:14):
they can't. Well, but then then there
becomes an ethical dilemma for therapists attending parties
with clients, so they would be in a much better position to
find a coach. What do you do?
Sit on the parking lot and tell me you're like on the headset?
What to do? Like go up to that couple?
No, I want you right there next to me in the trenches.

(13:36):
I mean, that's when you do that's fair.
You just might have to go to another state.
There's there are some ethical challenges that we don't really,
I mean. I get it.
I don't want to be involved in that either.
Sure. So like I said, the main part
that I gather from that is thereneeds to be an acceptance of it.
Just an understanding of it. So there there needs to be like
an acceptance that should curb between who the therapist is and

(14:00):
who the couple is. That's going to because I mean,
I would be, I would be a little off put by walking in and
telling a therapist that hey, I'm non monogamous And like the
first reaction that they give islike.
But Miss Doll, take my take my scenario that I went through in
under advisement. You're taking under
consideration what I was saying like I go in me and this woman

(14:20):
have been together for eons, right longer than most people
have been married. And so we we know each other.
We have battle scars and relationships scars built up.
We're going into a person that we we've been doing this whole
E&M. Am I saying or EMN or E ethanol?
E&M. E&M, we've been doing this for a

(14:42):
decade plus now, you know what Imean?
He has to be able to understand,like I don't want someone who
just read a book and knows the surface level stuff We're
talking. We're we're talking about this
is going to be for the rest of our lives at this point.
Now, I didn't trust that he was able to give sound advice on the
topic. That's what I'm saying.
So I'm not saying like we're a couple or we've just started

(15:05):
dating. We're trying to navigate our way
through it or get started. This is we're in the weeds.
We're in the thick of it. And I got somebody who's a
rookie in my mind. I could be totally wrong, but
you can't be that experienced at25, you know what I mean?
Personally, he has not dealt with this dynamic, obviously.
I think you bring up a really valid point and it doesn't
matter whether you're seeking a therapist or a coach, it's

(15:26):
really important that you interview the person that you
are potentially going to be delving all of your deepest,
darkest secrets to, right? You were saying it's a 25 year
old individual. Does he really have the
experience to help us with this issue?
I always just that people, when they start working with the
therapist that they treat that first session or first couple of

(15:48):
sessions more like an interview.Are you somebody that I want to
work with? Tell me about your
qualifications. Tell me about any related
experience that you have that might be able to help us with.
I just think it's a really important piece that a lot of
people think like, oh, this is the therapist that's been
assigned to me because they had the first available opening and
I'm kind of in crisis right now.And then they come to the first

(16:09):
session and they just want to spill everything, which is very,
very common. That's there's nothing wrong
with that. It's very common for that to
happen. But I just always recommend
people slow down, take your timeand make sure that the the
person that you are hiring, I mean, it is a service that they
are going to be who you're looking for or it's really not
going to work. It didn't work.

(16:33):
I ain't seen cow's ass since it did not work.
Yeah, it was not a good fit. You know it was not you have
experience personally. Do you find that that helps you
with your particular? Oh, absolutely.
I'm very open about that. I am, I am a participant in, in
the swing lifestyle and various lifestyles.

(16:55):
And I do think that that gives me an edge in working with
people in, in this community. I have my own journey and I've
had my own highs and my own lowsand I'm not special and I'm not
exclusive to that. It's an individual process for
everybody and for every relationship, but there's there
are some common things that comeup and I think it's it helps to

(17:15):
know it from the inside. Now do you get asked more often
to help therapy wise or more coaching?
So I've been really clear with my boundary around being a
therapist, right? I'm technically in the therapy
world. If I walk into a grocery store
and my client is there, you know, I can't say hi to them.

(17:37):
I can't even acknowledge them because of confidentiality.
And so I launched the coaching business as as a way to remain
in the community but then also help people within the
community. I'm still confused on the
difference between the therapistand the coach.
Can you highlight like the when would I seek out a therapist
versus one of my I would seek out a coach?
That's what I'm a little bit confused on.

(17:57):
So I would say if you were experiencing significant
diagnosed mental health conditions that are impacting
your relationship, we don't Ed, so no what?
Do you mean like? Like what's?
The range, I mean, what's the range?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, right, I mean, so

(18:18):
if it's like, you know, like you, you have this event in
childhood and it's impacting your adult life, that would be a
time to seek out a therapist, right?
So it actually has nothing really to do, nothing to.
Do with swinging though. That's the point.
Oh OK, I got my own. Answer.
Would you look? Me jumping over there.
No, no, that ain't. Nothing.

(18:38):
There are things that when you're working through
depression, anxiety, these things can impact the swinging
lifestyle, but they're impactingyour life regardless.
And I would say that would be a time if you're going to explore
childhood wounds or traumas, past events, that's going to be
more of a therapy route. Coaching is really more about

(19:00):
kind of what's happening in the present moment and past might
impact that, but it's not the focus of the session, right?
The focus of the session is like, hey, we want to be
swingers. We can't figure out how to get
over our jealousy. I think a.
Huge thing for the mental healththing is this when when couples
get into it and we see a lot of this even in in Lindsay.

(19:21):
You can you can chime in if you see this in your practice at
all. But what I know what happens is
at some point, even if it's justcouples dating other couples or
couples who get into solo play and they start dating singles.
What happens is relationships are formed and there are all
different levels of relationships.
There's from like a we hang out,we have beers together, you come

(19:42):
over in the crib together or we hang out with our kids all the
way to we're in love together. So all these different
relationships, you're going to have to manage all these
relationships. And once you start managing
these relationships, that shit gets tough.
And that impacts not only your regular life, it also impacts
your swinger life. Because let me tell you this, if

(20:03):
people hear that, no, oh, we didn't like that couple or we
don't deal with that couple anymore because things got messy
or this person couldn't handle me seeing other people.
This person couldn't handle knowing that, you know, we
didn't tell them that we were going to this party and this and
that. It fucks with people.
It fucks with their head, you know, and a lot, a lot of the

(20:25):
lifestyle is being able to keep that under wraps and being able
to manage that because you're gonna, like I said, you're gonna
have relationships with everybody you meet at some
level. And the successful people learn
how to manage these things. It happens every week in every
party you go to, you're going tohear about.
She didn't tell us she was coming in.
We wanted them. We were supposed to be playing
with them and we didn't go with them.

(20:46):
The mental side of it is important because if you aren't
strong in that or you guys haven't worked out, you know how
you're going to deal with these feelings.
Like Mr. Always says, all the fields come in.
All the fields come into. Play.
When all the fields start cominginto play, how are you going to
manage this? And that is a huge part of, I
think, the mental side of the line lifestyle.

(21:07):
How are you going to manage these relationships that you're
going to meet with everybody? So like I said, I'm not talking
about you've got a girlfriend orboyfriend and you fell in love
automatically. It's, you know, you became
friends with some people and you're hanging out every
weekend. It's not.
And then you see some pictures pop up on the wall or someone
asks you, are you going to so and so's party and you're not
invited, you're not there. So that right there 1 affects

(21:31):
your relationship with that person and it's also going to
affect your relationship at home, your relationship with
your partner in the next stop. So just keep that in the play
When you guys start this and people that are new in it, it's
normal. Everyone goes through it.
Even I went through it, there's scenarios that still come up
where I have to deal with dealing with these
relationships. Just remember that mental piece

(21:52):
of it is going to affect not only outside relationships, it's
going to affect your home relationship.
So Lindsay just wanted to tell that as just a tip of
experience. Yeah, I know.
One of the earlier episodes thatI was on, I'm in a different
season. I at the time said that
communication was key and I still believe that communication

(22:13):
is key. I think before communication
though is actually profound self-awareness.
So we need to be very self awareof how we show up, what we are
bringing into any kind of, you know, like ship relationship
situation, ship friendship, whatever it.
Is I agree. I agree.
Now you're strengthening your goddamn weaknesses.

(22:33):
It's easier said than done for some.
And on. That one and improve the other.
So we recently in the community itself have come across a couple
of extremely hard situations. One made national news and that
was finding 2 individuals beforea lifestyle event.

(22:56):
Was it before or after lifestyleevent?
Actually after. Event when?
What they were, reports say, andthat they had a drug overdose.
The other one was closer to home, was a suicide.
It's always scary. It's always ugly to, you know,
hear these things. And honestly, even as you know,
obviously the people close to these families and friends, but

(23:17):
also to the rest of you, the community, always wondering like
why how they always seem so happy, so put together, so
enjoying life like it was. And then all of a sudden there
it is. How common is the use of
substance like alcohol or party drugs in swinging communities?
And when does it become a concern?
If you haven't listened to the episode before, I'm black,

(23:38):
right? And so black people don't
consider what white people consider drugs all the time.
When you say drugs, I have a certain thing in my mind where
some people might consider weed a drug or like you said, alcohol
a drug. Those are not drugs to me.
That's like meth, like hard shit, like shit you're going to
die from is drugs to me. What do you what do you see?

(23:59):
All of the above people gravitate towards certain
chemicals to help with certain things.
You know, there's uppers, there's Downers and there's all
arounders. All.
Arounders, all arounders, right,you know, and so some people
want that. They want that upper right.

(24:19):
They they want the intensity. Usually uppers are kind of more
intense in nature and like cocaine.
Some people are feeling anxious,they're feeling nervous.
They want a cocktail or ton. That's a huge part of it, the
the nerves and the no, yeah, I'mguessing alcohol is the most
prevalent thing we're going to see at, you know, because no one

(24:39):
can hide the alcohol, you know what I mean?
You're going up to the bar and getting a vodka tonic versus if
you're in the corner taking a bump.
But the alcohol, I would say, isgoing to be the most prevalent
thing that people have to deal with and manage in the
lifestyle. Yes, yes.
Well, if you think about it, that's one of the first things
that we always or that we have noticed or said to people is
that if you're brand new to thisand you're trying to get past
your nerves and anxiety, grab that one drink and that kind of

(25:02):
helps calm everything down before you go in a approach
someone. That's the most common thing
that I see being used, like you said, well.
Liquors for sale, not cocaine for sale.
You know what I mean? So.
Alcohol's legal and actually I think you're going to see more
of an increase in well, you already are seeing an increase
in THC cannabis use, right? As I mean, it was always there,

(25:27):
but now that it's legal and it'sbecoming more drinks now.
Yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean there's a lot of places in Minneapolis you can go
instead of a beer, you can have a THC seltzer.
So as as public opinion shifts and, and these things become
more acceptable, you're going tosee an increase in, in other,

(25:51):
you know, other substances really.
And we're already seeing this. Scenario for you, me and the
Dean walk into your office and we sit down and we say, hey,
we're going to be doing this swinging thing and you know,
thinking about going to events. We're thinking about this one
coming up the next week. It's this guy white chocolates
birthday party. So we're thinking about going to
that. What do you suggest we have a

(26:13):
drink, You suggest we smoke a Jay?
Do you suggest we take a bump? What would you suggest we do to
make ourselves feel more comfortable or part of this
community or a swinger, so to speak.
And don't tell me whatever I'm comfortable with because I'm
paying good money for this hour,Lindsay.
So. Well, and I would tell you
ethically, I can't suggest that you take any.

(26:34):
Substance. Look at me however that.
Hearsay trap right there. However, I would probably have a
just a real honest conversation with you about what are you
hoping to get out of whether it's smoke in a joint or having

(26:54):
a beer or a drink. You know, how does it, how does
it help? And then I, I personally take a
harm reduction approach. I'm not an abstinence person
necessarily, but if you are going to be using clocking
drugs, so meaning I'm not going to say refrain from doing these
things, what I'm going to have aconversation with you is like
around why are you doing these things?

(27:16):
How do you minimize any potential harm that could come
of using substances, right? So for example, I might say Mr.
So and so whiskey Dick is a realthing.
Right. It is.
It is. I might ask the question, can
you really can? I have benefited so.

(27:39):
Much Lindsay knows. Whiskey Dick up, man, I love
whiskey Dick. Keep whiskey Dick alive because
I benefited so much from whiskey.
Dick. Yeah.
We call them Stoner Dicks too sometimes.
Then can that happen? Just asking.
It's a question. Listen, whiskey has the opposite

(28:00):
effect on me. Whiskey makes me like so.
Well, and and and cannabis is considered an all arounder.
So it it depends on how it affects the person.
For some people it's probably based on, I don't know, strain
and everything else. It it can be uplifting or it can
be have the opposite effect and be more of a a depressant or a

(28:23):
suppressant. It just varies on the person,
But it's a good that's a fair question.
I mean. Because for me, honestly, like
I'm on the same boat. I don't do it very often, but I
do have my gummies and stuff. And if I do a certain amount, I
literally become numb to the core and I just become deflated.
Like it doesn't matter. You can say whatever you want.
I'm not gonna answer you. I'm just gonna sit there happily

(28:44):
in my inner zone and we're just not gonna have a conversation.
I know myself enough to know that that's where I will go.
And so I think that there is that part where Lindsay says
that you do have to know yourself and if it's something
that you have never tried, don'ttry it at an event.
Don't ever try it at an event. The night before.

(29:05):
Don't do that. Yeah.
Because not only you're going toruin it for yourself, you're
going to ruin it for your partner.
And who knows who else that you're going to come across that
you might ruin their night. I do not like playing with
people who are super extremely high and who are super,
extremely drunk. It turns me off like a light
switch. It will never happen because I
know that they are not fully cognizant of what they are doing

(29:29):
in that moment, and I don't knowwhere that's going to go because
I can't read them in that situation.
I understand that for some people, that's how they loosen
up and that's how they can function around a large group of
people and other things like that because they're in their
heads too much and that stops it.
But also being the daughter of an alcoholic, I also know the

(29:50):
damage that it can do far beyondthat without the help that's
needed. It's important to note it
actually doesn't stop it. It just pauses it, right?
Because when that person sobers up, it just is a bigger problem.
And I know especially for new people, and I mean, admittedly
I've been there, it's real easy to get there and be nervous and,
you know, you have a drink and, and because that adrenaline is

(30:12):
running and those nerves are going, you, you have another
drink and then you have another.And you can find yourself just
in a position of being a little tipsy or beyond.
You know, it's easy. It's easy to do in that
environment because it is already a heightened
environment, right? It's charged.

(30:34):
So when you're ready to level upyour kink, don't just shop
anywhere. Shop where the gear is as bold
as you are. Bondesk is your premier
destination for fetish wear, bondage gear, and everything you
need to explore your kinky desires.
Whether you're curious or experienced, leather or latex,
Bondesk has what you deserve. Visit

(30:56):
theminstoreinminneapolisoronlineanytime@bondesk.com.I will add in one thing and that
is it is tough to be sober at a lifestyle event.
I've known couples that say theydon't go to parties for the pure
reason of alcohol because that is a challenging environment for

(31:17):
them personally. Let me ask you this question.
Why? I'll stop you before you go on
because you're saying like they're like, how do they get
plugged in the community? And we have an episode, I don't
know when it drops or whatever, but it talks about we delve into
race a little bit. And it also goes into why we
even started this community. How this community started was
because there wasn't a space forus to do what we wanted to do,

(31:38):
but we had to go off and just doour own thing because they're
what we weren't going to get into the other Ave. the way it
was. So I think this is sort of
analogous for what you're talking about.
These people that are sober, maybe that's what they need to
do because they're not going to change everyone else's thinking.
They're not going to change the formatting processes of the
parties and events and what is commonplace in usage throughout

(31:59):
the last 50 years of how you do swinging.
They're not going to change that.
Choice. They also made the right choice
by pulling themselves out of that situation to start with,
not putting themselves in there and then trying to stop everyone
around them from doing it, and also not enjoying themselves at
that level as well. So by removing themselves from

(32:21):
it, they've taken that first step of stopping anything
further for progressing that could cause harm to them or
others. I know that there are people who
are sober who are looking for sober community within this
lifestyle. And I also know a lot of people
who'd be willing to step out of their comfort zone and join in a
sober party and not have alcoholor any type of drug involved to

(32:44):
do it if. Anyone truly knows me If you see
me on Saturdays at our events, Idon't really have a drink until
about 10:00 at night. I am sober between the time I
wake up until the time I say allright, it's good to go now.
Like there's no more chance for total bullshit at this point.
In my mind, there's a certain level, but it's dark.
It's late by the time I get to. I could bullshit at this point.

(33:07):
So I see if someone said I'm gonna have a party, they'll come
to this place from 7:00 to 12:00.
I probably would still be sober at most of that time, so I could
see where there could be a lane for it.
But as a mass party producer, someone who produces large scale
events, that I don't think if I market it as Halloween is sober,

(33:30):
we're going to have 40 people there.
So I think there's a lane for it.
I just don't think it's mass marketable.
And also, again, it's like, how are we defining sober?
Sober from alcohol, sober from all substances.
Exactly. I mean, there's, there's a lot
of variability in that. Personally to this issue because
and I won't out them if they want to chime in, they can.

(33:51):
But someone brought up a proposal that said, look, you
have an event. What we would like to do is
create a quiet space for people who want that or don't want the
alcohol charged energy or whatever just to get away and be
able to be in their own sort of space, whatever.
And my response was I don't disagree with that idea.
I think there are probably a lotof people who would like that.

(34:13):
I think though, that you know, if there's 405 hundred people
running around that might be a little hard to carve out a space
for them. I don't know where we could
carve it out. And then also for me is as a
business owner, it was also going to sort of conflict with
the fact that you never want to separate your crowd at an event.
So if I have 100 people off separate and I have 400 people

(34:34):
over here, I'm losing those, those 100 people because they
don't now know what's happening on the dance floor.
They don't now know they're they're not in the interchange,
the mix going from the bar to the dance floor.
I have 100 people that don't know what's going on.
And then I have 100 people that are going to come back to me and
say, but we didn't meet anybody or, oh, we were, you know, it
seemed like people were standoffish or cliques.

(34:55):
That's how those things, that's how that line forms.
And that's how that line opens up for me as a promoter, I'm
saying. OK so for me I think the middle
ground might be like a sober meet and greet.
I don't disagree. I'm saying like that would be
something aside from when, you know, like.
Like an event at. 8:00 You know what I'm saying, at 8:00 I don't
want from 8:00 to 1:00 they're being, you know, a DJ and a

(35:16):
dance floor and a bar going on. But then from 8:00 to 1:00,
there's also the quiet zone or the, you know, the meet and
greet zone or whatever you're saying.
I think that. Yeah.
And so it's OK. I'm I'm OK being outed here.
This was my idea. I.
Didn't know if you would put your name on it or not.
That's what I'm. Saying no, no, yeah, yeah, this

(35:36):
was. I brought this idea to you
because I thought it was. Real life people were giving you
the dirt, yeah. Because I thought it would be
nice to have what I, I referenced as a Zen den, right?
For people. Thank you for people who maybe
don't want to be in the mix of the alcohol, still want to
attend the parties or have some aspect of the parties that have

(35:59):
an inclusive space where they feel and they can attend but not
have the temptation or the trigger of alcohol.
I do like the idea how if they're separated from the rest
of everyone else, but they meet someone who does drink alcohol
and stuff like and they decide to go from there with it.
Like how would someone like that?
Good question. Kind of, I mean, because if

(36:20):
you're trying to knee Sharky. You're going to ocean the fresh
water. What are you doing here?
Well, and that's what I'm saying.
So like if you're trying to keepyourself away from the
substance, but then you're connecting with people who are
doing it, say alcohol is the number one thing mainly, right?
So you have someone who's, you know, very much trying to stay
away from the alcohol, but meetsanother person and they met

(36:41):
before the alcohol started flowing, but now it's later in
the evening and they want to reconnect with these people.
But the alcohol has been flowing.
They're trying now that's. What you're saying Miss Dollar?
Yeah. Or even just to reconnect in
general. But like, yes, so say that
that's where they're wanting to go with it.
How are they going to transitioninto that when they've been
happily enjoying their sobriety and party over here, while the

(37:02):
people that they've been connecting with are now enjoying
the party on a whole different level?
Sounds like someone's got a decision to make to me.
I mean, I mean, that's, I know I, I and I think it's a
conversation. It's conversation at the start
of the night, right? Like you, you, you stated it
yourself, you have a boundary. I don't play with people who are
fucked up, right? And so that's that's no

(37:24):
different. So if my thinking was it was a
just be a space that is an alcohol free zone.
And so alcohol doesn't come in, that does not mean that people
who have been drinking wouldn't come in.
But I think once you start to develop a or promote a culture
of like, you know, the what the space is intended for, of course
you're going to have somebody who's had too much that's going

(37:45):
to come stumbling in there because they're looking for
something or someone I'm not. Going to be stumbling but I'm
definitely drinking and I'm coming to talk to the sober
honeys. So how are you going to stop me?
I don't think she's trying to stop it.
That's what I was trying to. Point out was no.
I'm not if you've been drinking,I mean, and you want to you just

(38:08):
you would come in and have something else to drink.
You just wouldn't bring your drink in.
It doesn't mean that you can't go have a drink.
Come in, stop, kick my rap and then I go back and get a drink
and then I come back. If that's what you need to do.
That defeats the purpose, Lindsey.
I think if we want this in soberspace, we want sober mind,
bodies and souls in here. We want like minds.
If I'm at the bar and I'm doing shots, I know what I'm getting.

(38:30):
I put in for that. I'm getting a wild shoddy type
time if I go to the Zen Den, which I like.
If I go to the Zeal, then I wantpeople clear headed.
I don't want to deal with no slurring words.
I don't want to deal with no block.
Of breath. I want to let's do a quick legal
disclaimer here and say that C&Dnor the Down and Dirty podcast

(38:51):
is recommending you ever hook upwith someone that's sloshed out
of their mind and can't make decisions for themselves.
Legal dish thing on consent. So I think I always talk like I
already have said those things. But yes, like that's my job is
to put in the legal disclaimers.And I, I think to the Senden the
Zenden idea was also to kind of help support some of those of us

(39:13):
who are more introverted in nature and need a little bit of
a down a nervous system down regulation so that we can engage
with, you know, our other members in a way that doesn't
feel so overwhelming. Support this.
I support it like there's. Nothing to be I.
Would donate to cause like this but I don't know that I would be

(39:34):
boots on the ground. Grass roots are because like.
And that's fair. I was the wrong person to bring
it to. There's somebody out there that
can make this happen. Just in terms of what is it that
we're trying, what's the point we're trying to get across?
What's the the purpose of, you know, and I think part of that
is just kind of moving away frompeople over consuming.
What tools and practices can help participants reduce stress

(39:54):
and anxiety at a lifestyle event?
That's not drugs and alcohol. So I think it kind of this is.
That's, I was going to say it comes back to like a therapist
or a coach, right? Like having somebody help you
identify what those core feelings are and work, work
through those. There are treatments out there

(40:16):
like accelerated resolution theory therapy or EMDR, which
are eye movement therapies that can help reduce symptoms and
sometimes situational trauma situations.
There's that would be no. With the thing in your hands,
you know what I. Mean no, there's no shocking.
It's situational. I was like, yeah, is that the

(40:37):
one? Sorry, go ahead.
Fuck you. Yeah.
I will say one of the things that I have recommended and have
also personally used is proprolinol.
Proprolinol is a beta blocker that blocks the uptake of
norepinephrine and adrenaline. And so that is, it's a
prescription drug, but it, it really does help with the social

(40:59):
anxiety, but that's also not, not for everybody are already on
hypertension medications. They're not going to give you
propranol. So there's, there's things
mindfulness meditation, breath work, yoga, there's different
treatment modalities out there that address like the Vegas
system, which is based on this polyvagal theory.
It's, it's our system that, you know, helps us feel OK, moves us

(41:23):
into fight or flight or moves usinto a state of like a shutdown
or a collapse, right. And so the more vagal toning we
can do to promote safety within the nervous system, then the
better we feel when we're in social environments and we're
starting to, you know, feel thatanxiety and, and start to
potentially, you know, internally freak out who.

(41:45):
Played devil's advocate here. So you mentioned a few things.
Therapy wise or medication wise,that could help people with
social anxiety. Now listening to that, do you
think that some people say like,well, that just sounds like an
excuse to do these things Because I go through, I don't
take any of that stuff or I don't go through any of those
processes, but I still have the same reactions.

(42:06):
I'm still nervous to go talk to people.
I'm still nervous to be in a room and I still don't want to
dance and I don't want to do that.
But I'm never going to take the beta blockers or do these
therapy things. Are those people just using that
as an excuse and they just need to get in there and do the work
or they just need to get out there and go meet people?
They just get on the goddamn dance floor and dance.
I. Mean, are you asking people who

(42:27):
struggle with these things? Is it an excuse?
Yeah, like the the drugs or the therapy or stuff, some would
just say just get out there and do it because we all go through
it. We're all having the same
challenge. Well, and that's very black and
white thinking, right? Like that is all or nothing.
And sometimes you can use some of these things to help you.
Sometimes it's a matter of having the experience a few

(42:48):
times, understanding the process, what's expected of you.
For a lot of people, like the anxiety comes in because they
don't know what to expect or what the expectations are of
them. But you know, the more times you
do something, whether you have alittle bit of assistance or not,
the more comfortable you get, which I think is why for some of

(43:08):
us on, on this call today, right?
We can say we don't mind an environment where we're sober or
semi sober or whatever, as opposed to maybe when we first
got started, right? Because it was through the
experiences over time that the getting to know people, getting
to know the community, building friendships, understanding how

(43:29):
the events work and what's expected of me, what can I
expect from others. I think that reduces the anxiety
for some people over time, right?
I don't think it's all or nothing, nothing.
And you know, the just get out there and do it attitude.
I mean, while Nike built a wholeslogan on that, you know, like.
I also feel it depends on your feels for that moment in time

(43:50):
too. Like what it feels you're I
mean, I can say, you know, for myself in general, like that old
saying, leave it at the door. Sometimes I feel like that's
what I have to tell myself. I'm going from my everyday life
into a lifestyle event. I have to leave to leave that
stuff at the door because what happens is I will end up
bringing in all of my emotions from how I've been in my

(44:13):
everyday life. And that will transpire into how
the rest of the night goes for me at an event and I just you
just don't know what's going to happen.
So you kind of, if I tell myselfI got to check myself at the
door, like I am here to relax orwhatever my thought process is
at that moment time. But like you said, it's not

(44:33):
black and white. It's.
It's such an individual process,right?
I mean, that's, and I think that's really what I'm kind of
taking away from this is that itthere's not A1 size fits all in
any situation. What's something you wish more
people in the community understood about mental health,
Lindsay? And not just on the substance,
half of it, but also like, you know, we talked about earlier,
there's, there was a suicide as well.

(44:55):
That I believe that the problemsthat exist within navigating the
lifestyle exist outside of that as well.
And so most people, I don't wantto say everybody, but most
people have had struggles at some point in their life.
And I think it's important to recognize like when you're
struggling, when to get help or ask for support, who are the

(45:17):
people in the community that youcan can reach out to?
I think that's actually another struggle in the community as
it's kind of hard to talk about what's going on for you
personally when you're also trying to get that room person
to your room at the end of the night.
You know, most people come in with a persona of who they are
that evening, and not everybody can compartmentalize.

(45:38):
That's the other thing too. You talked about leaving your
vanilla person at the door to step into your lifestyle person,
and some people can do that beautifully.
I'm really good at compartmentalizing, but there
are people who really struggle with that.
Everybody is unique and they're on their own own path, their own
journey. And then you bring two people
together and you call them a couple and that's a third

(46:00):
journey. And now you're trying to create
these experiences chances in another environment.
And it's tricky. The feels are bound to happen in
this environment. I think the lifestyle is kind of
shadow work. Sometimes what you might have
put or left in the unconscious realm of your your being is
going to be brought into the light.

(46:23):
I would have to say I agree. So then how do you think like as
hosts and as community members ourselves, Like, how do you feel
that we could possibly like stepin and assist people in these
situations without shaming them?Where you have a person in
particular who over drinks everytime you see them and be a start
to feel that might be a problem And you kind of know them on

(46:45):
some level, right? Or you see someone who's sitting
off in the corner. And no matter how many times
someone has, you know, come to them and talk to them and tried
to bring them into the loop of everything and make friends,
they keep refusing or don't interact.
Are there things you think that we could do better as a
community and in general to helpspot these things?

(47:05):
I think this is this is kind of a tricky question because on one
hand, I want to say really it's kind of the responsibility to
the end of the individual comingback to my original statement
of, of profound self-awareness to navigate through this, this
community, you really need to beaware of and willing to do your
work. I think it's just being aware of

(47:28):
where responsibility lies. Now, that's not also to say in
the community if somebody is struggling, but you can point
them in the direction. And then also being willing to
be kind, but honest kindness goes a long way.
And now if you keep seeing somebody and they're always
trashed, they're hitting on you.It's OK to say I think you in

(47:52):
your sober frame is a really awesome person, but when we come
to these events and you over consume, I actually would really
prefer we didn't do anything at all however you want to say
that. So setting boundaries with these
people that. Yeah, just setting boundaries
and yeah, and and just being being honest.
But people are going to do what people people are going to do

(48:14):
what people want to do. You are correct on that one.
I think both David and the professor can attest to this and
you too. We, we do have stuff that at the
very bottom of our page or somewhere in C&D that has all
the information for numbers and places to go call or find help

(48:36):
in any way, shape or form that you might need or that you see
that someone else might need andwant to share it.
Am I correct on that, boys? Yes.
Resources tool, yes, it's in help FAQs and we'll have links
in the show notes. I have a question for Lindsay
before she goes in your business.
What is the most common theme slash issue that you deal with

(48:59):
or give us? Like top.
Three if you can't pinpoint one,but you're going to say I can't
pinpoint 1. Top three issues are I'm going
to actually say attachment and. Then like how?
The attachment styles, specifically I.
Still don't know what that means?
Keep going. So we can bring her back on that
one, let her keep going. Communication and then some of

(49:24):
the harder feelings like jealousy, well, that's.
What I want to know what the topthree issues were.
What did? What did people come in and say
save me I need your help. I often think it comes down to
the attachment challenges. Attach to another person or my
partner's too attached to me doesn't let me be free.
Both of those things, right. So if I'm, if I'm avoidance,

(49:46):
that's right. If I am avoidance, attachment I
don't typically get, you know, close to people.
I hold them at an arm's length. If I'm anxious attachment, I
might really struggle watching my partner kiss someone, let
alone screw them right? Or what are the implications of,
you know, how are we going to dothis thing called swinging and

(50:08):
and I have to manage like my insecurities around feeling like
anxiously attached to my partner.
The third insecure attachment style is disorganized and it's
it's a combination of the last two.
This is kind of a whole other topic, but our attachment style
is formed in the 1st 18 months of life and that's kind of how
we. Our life.

(50:29):
No, no, as a as a child, but we carry this forward into our
adult relationships. So I knew I was going to have a
wife and multiple girlfriends when I was 18 months old.
That's mine. No, that's not that is your non.

(50:50):
Monogamy. I knew at 18 months I was going
to be a goddamn player in front of all of our listeners.
Will you just go ahead and and just state that the professor
doesn't need coaching. He needs some health help.
Coaching ain't going to help himat this point.
He needs the electrical. Shot therapy to his tempos.

(51:14):
I think actually the professor has done a pretty good job.
You're not supposed to be inflating his ego.
I was just making sure I was clear that at 18 months old.
No, it's how you as. Yes, we could have a whole other
episode on attachment styles. The lifestyle actually kind of

(51:36):
speeds up things that were probably already destined to
happen. So if you were struggling in
your marriage and you go and decide to become swingers as a
way to spice things up and now that might work, but it also
might just shine a biggle that spotlight on all the problems
that you were having prior to the lifestyle.

(51:58):
But now you're in an environmentwhere it's not just between you
and your partner, it's you and your partner and in the rest of
the room, whoever that might be.Thanks Lindsay for your insight
and honesty. The professor and I will just
remind all of our listeners. Check in on your friends, don't
ignore the signs, and take care of yourselves as well.
It's very important not only to yourself but also to the people

(52:20):
that are around you as well. They care too.
And do if you ever find yourselfin a situation where you feel
that you need help or someone that you know needs it, please
go find the help. Find the support that you need.
Whether it starts with a phone call to a friend or you go all
the way to finding yourself a therapist and or just need to go

(52:43):
to the hotlines. There are so many resources out
there, use them. What Miss Dawson and I will say
this, go to a friend because we're in a very unique situation
here and we're in a very unique lifestyle.
Whereas if we were talking about, you know, my wife's
cheating on me or my kids, don'tlisten to me.
And it's not you could go to anybody.
There's a billion people you cango to.
You could go to your cousin, youcan go to your mom, you go to

(53:04):
your coworker. That's not in this lifestyle.
We can't go to just anybody. We're in a unique situation
where we only have certain people we can talk to about
certain things. So if you have a close friend in
this lifestyle that you trust, aclose friend, this lifestyle
that you've gone through similarthings with, lean on that person
because, you know, let's keep itreal.
Everybody's not going to go to the step where they find a coach
or a therapist. Most people are going to say,

(53:25):
like, you know, I'm a weekend warrior.
We don't really do this that serious or I don't want to bring
this up. That's not what we're into.
That's not our lifestyle or whatever.
It's not. If you're doing this, you're
going to, like we said, you're going to come across these
feelings one way or the other. So make sure you're in.
I'm telling you this because I'mthe type of person, you know,
you've you've seen me and Lizzy talk about this throughout the

(53:46):
episode that I'm probably not going to go to Cal again.
I'm definitely not going to but.But he would go to Lindsay.
Yeah, yes, I'll see about you this weekend probably.
But I will lean on my friends for certain things that, you

(54:07):
know, you go through or that scenarios that come up.
I have a scenario in my life right now that I have to talk to
my friends about, you know what I mean?
So it's it's lifestyle related and only certain people can
relate. So make sure.
You. Yes, make sure you lean on
those. People, it's its own village and
you have to find your own smaller villages of people that
you can trust and talk with. Yes, Nancy, thank you.

(54:31):
Alright guys, thank you for joining us.
Thanks for having me. Special thanks to our sponsor
Bondesk for supporting this episode.
Visit bondesk.com and discover their premium selection of
bondage and BDSM gear, sex toys and fetish fashion to suit kinky
people at every level of experience.
Unlock desires beyond the ordinary with couples

(54:53):
nextdoor.com. Whether you're curious, kinky
Polly, or fully in the lifestyle, C&D is where real
people connect, flirt and explore.
Join a private community built for open minded adults who value
consent, respect and unforgettable experiences.
Use promo code DIRTY 25. Valid for new couples and single

(55:15):
females only. That's couples nextdoor.com
where open minded meets real life.
So David, the producer who sponsored today's episode,
that's couples nextdoor.com, where you can unlock the desires
beyond the ordinary. My favorite lifestyle website
out there. Also producer, where can you
listen to today's episode? All major podcasts because this

(55:38):
is a production of the down and dirty production company and
they make sure you hear this episode and what is our favorite
toy company Love sense the remote control gods over there
get you 1. And also don't forget those
smooth silky sounds by Vic. Toe note show notes, go to the

(55:59):
damn show notes.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Mental Health in the Lifestyle: Are We Okay?

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Mental Health in the Lifestyle: Are We Okay?

Crime Junkie