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March 7, 2023 41 mins

You'll be amazed at the innovative ways technology and addiction recovery can intersect. Join me and my esteemed guest, Dr. Jay from the Soberverse, as we traverse the complex terrain of contingency management in addiction recovery and how Sobercoin, a groundbreaking cryptocurrency, is transforming the recovery journey by rewarding sobriety.

Have you ever considered how radically different international approaches to drug use and addiction are? We take a deep-dive into the revolutionary measures adopted by Portugal and the new schemes being implemented stateside. Stay tuned as we tackle the controversial debate surrounding drug use and its impact on clean time and spiritual growth. Drawing from the experiences of Bill Wilson, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, we shed light on the exploration of psychedelic substances in the pursuit of sobriety.

We wrap up the discussion by evaluating the current state of treatment centers, drug courts, and the criminal justice system. Together with Dr. Jay, we reflect on how these avenues can better serve those battling addiction. The show emphasizes the power of connection, cementing its role as the cornerstone of recovery. This episode is an enlightening conversation that seamlessly merges the worlds of technology and addiction recovery, redefining conventional notions and approaches. Tune in and bolster your knowledge about the intricacies of the recovery journey.

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Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Hi guys, and welcome to thisepisode of the Drunken Worm
Podcast.
My name is Carl, the host of theshow, and you are listening to

(01:06):
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(02:32):
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(02:55):
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(03:17):
media platforms.
So this week we have awonderful guest lined up.
His name is Dr Jonas we callhim Dr Jay for short and we're
going to be talking a little bitabout some new upcoming hot
topics in the recovery communitywhen it comes to helping
approach the addiction ofdisease and how we're kind of

(03:41):
looking at it now, and so I'mgoing to let him talk to you
guys about his program and allof the different facets that his
program has to offer as well.
So, without any further ado,let's get started with this
week's episode.
Welcome to the Drunken WormPodcast.
Each week, I will be bringingyou dynamic content that will

(04:04):
educate and inspire.
This podcast was created totalk to mental health
professionals about addictionrecovery and their own personal
stories that can help inspire usto become better people and
live healthier lives.
Welcome to the Drunken WormPodcast.
My name is Carl, the host andcreator of this show, and I hope
all of you are having awonderful morning today.
Maybe you're out on thetreadmill working out at the gym

(04:27):
, maybe you're driving to workor maybe you're already at work
listening to this episode or athome, but I really appreciate
all of you guys taking the timeto support the show and listen.
On this week's episode, episode41, we have Dr Jay from the
soberverse and we're going to betalking about one of his
projects called Sobercoin, andwe're going to be discussing

(04:49):
contingency management in therecovery community and how the
professional community ofrecovery is approaching this to
help people with the disease ofaddiction.
Dr Jay, welcome to the DrunkenWorm Podcast, sir.

Speaker 2 (05:04):
Thank you, carl.
Thank you, and it's so great tobe here and be able to discuss
something so important witheveryone.
I look forward to having thisget mess and doubt, so thanks
again.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
Absolutely Well.
It's such a pleasure to be onthe show with you.
You and I have gotten a chanceto work a little bit together
through your podcast, that is,through the soberverse, so I
have a pretty good understandingof all the different facets of

(05:35):
what the soberverse is, andthere's a lot of areas within
that community that you havehelped to develop and help build
to support the recoverycommunity, and one of those is
called Sobercoin.
So let's talk a little bitabout what Sobercoin is and how
it relates to a process calledcontingency management when we

(05:58):
approach helping people with thedisease of addiction.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Fantastic.
Thanks for that greatintroduction.
So Sobercoin is acryptocurrency that we are now
minting using the BinanceNetwork, and there's some
history here.
To get everybody caught up,I've been working with the
cryptocurrency space since 2016,when it was still some blip on

(06:23):
everybody's radar, so you neededa million bitcoins to buy a
pizza and subsequently, over thecourse of the last five years,
now you need you know.
So that's how our system shifts.
So Sobercoin came out of my ideaof where we would be able to

(06:47):
use the whole.
I'm trying to think of the wordthat.
I'm trying to remember what itis.
How do we use thecryptocurrency space to better
the attack on the disease ofaddiction and the scourge on
society, and how much it'skilling us as a society and how

(07:10):
it's determining and ruiningfamilies and people that are
part of it?
So my idea back in 2018, whenwe first launched, was to reward
people for staying sober.
I mean, in a nutshell, that wasa business model.
That was the elevator pitch andI've been, you know, on the
cutting edge and often hangingoff the cliff of that edge for

(07:31):
most of my projects.
So we launched and we made a bigsplash for a lot of PR, a lot
of podcasts, which again, theywere also in their agency, and
it didn't take off like we hadhoped.
The idea when we introducedusing a mobile app called Silver

(07:52):
Systems as an accountabilitycomponent, which is what we
agreed and research hasindicated addicts really benefit
from.
Thus the whole idea with thesponsor and home groups etc is
accountability.
So we created an app wherepeople check in, and then we
decided to introduce the cryptoas the methodology to reward

(08:13):
them for checking in on aconsistent basis to report their
recovery and their sobriety,and they would get paid, and it
can't get really much simplerthan that.
So then, what they do with themoney is really up to them.
But as part of the big project,it's created another ancillary
project so people can spendtheir cryptocurrency on other

(08:35):
wellness related products andservices.
So it was really a closedeconomy, deliberately designed
so, and that's the evolution ofit, and the orange started way
back in 2018 for us and has nowevolved to where the state of
California had passed a law backin 2021.

(08:55):
That contingency management wasgoing to be the new
intervention of choice to helppeople start to address their
in-fetamine based use disorderinitially, and, of course, it
was spread out to otherdiagnoses as well as across the
country.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Well, you know that is so.
So I find it really fascinatingand actually I really find it
invigorating to learn about thisnew approach.
And you know, I have a historyof meth use and I was trying to
think to myself, like how wouldI approach this if this system

(09:36):
was in place when I got clean?
And you know what would it meanto me if somebody said, hey,
we're going to pay you to staysober basically is what they're
doing.
So right now, the state ofCalifornia is entering into a
pilot program with drug MediCaland they're going to be with 13

(09:58):
counties.
They're going to be startingthis new program and getting it
up and running and over the next, you know, six months to a year
, hopefully all the pieces willbe in place and all the counties
will have started their pilotprograms.
But what does it mean to paysomebody to stay sober?

(10:18):
And how is that different frommore traditional approaches with
evidence-based practices andthose type of things that we
currently see in our treatmentprograms?

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Well, the dilemma is that the what we would call
traditional treatmentinterventions, the 12 step
facilitation models, has been anabysmal failure and it's been
carried on for 30 plus years.
In the beginning, when it wasoriginally created, it was the
only game in town, and we'retalking the 70s and, of course,

(10:54):
the heyday in the 80s, beforemanaged care stepped in.
You know, the late 80s, early90s, when I got into recovery,
when I got into the industry,when I got into the professional
helping game was that, you know, the Minnesota model was it,
and anything other than that washeretics and heresy.
It was horrible.
Anything that did with, youknow, treatment centers being

(11:18):
therapeutic communities.
So you know back then, hey, ifyou didn't die, that was enough
incentives to get clean.
Nowadays, that's not enough.
That's the scary part about it.
Not dying is the bar for peopleto go to treatment, not to get
better but to not die.
So paying people is basically atool.

(11:42):
I think last resource for allof us is that we want to
incentivize people and pay themto change.
Now this particular model hasbeen proven effective in a lot
of different controlled settings, way before being adopted by
the drug treatment industry.
It's been going on withclinical research for smoking
cessation, for instance.
Now the challenge with payingpeople to behavioral change is

(12:07):
that when we take away thatreward, they've regressed to
their norm.
So this proven effective aswell.
So the whole idea and thedilemma that I think the state
of California does not foreseeand does not yet, is that they
have limited funds to work with,and, no matter how much that
limited funds is that big a pull, it's still finite and, whoever

(12:30):
is coming from, there's only somuch around, and so it's going
to make a big splash.
I think they're going to get alot of positive results.
There'll be a lot of publicrelations regarding it, a lot of
success stories.
Then there'll be a lot ofabysmal failures of people that
are going to continue to regressand return to their drug use.

(12:51):
The problem is there's notenough money to be able to
distribute Thus the endlesssupply of cryptocurrency.
So that is what's going to setmy model apart from everybody
else Is that when we want morecoins, we can submit them, like
going to the Federal Reserve andpaying more dollars.
They can't do that withMedicaid dollars, they can't do

(13:11):
that with public and governmentfunds, whereas I can as a
private entrepreneur.
So we can keep that supplygoing, because we need people.
Addicts need at least a yearbefore they get that implemented
in trench.
Change that, yes.
In fact I can live, and I canlive a quality life without a
drug system.
This is new for most everybody.
They can't even fathom goingout of the house without getting

(13:34):
high, let alone sustaining anextended period of time of life
and responsibility and growingup without drugs.
That's like it's a born.
I'm like why would I want to dothat when I could just be, you
know, addicted to drugs and haveother people take care of me?
We're asking people to not justgive up drugs, but to give up a

(13:54):
lifestyle and to let go ofimmaturity and their
responsibility, which is prettyattractive.
They do not have to do anything.
It's pretty good to not have topay rent and just get high all
day.
You know, the fact that they'reunder potentialized really
means nothing to them, becausethey're so beaten down already.
The norm is this is it?

(14:17):
This is as good as it gets,sure, so they believe it.
They believe that lie.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
And I hear everything that you're saying and I agree
with you.
But there are people out therethat are going to say well, you
know what, dr J, we're justputting a bandaid on it.
We're not really helping thesepeople and we're giving them
money to go get more drugs.
Right, but correct me if I'mwrong.
But if they continue to use, Ithink the idea is that they're

(14:45):
no longer going to be availablefor services.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, that's true.
They're not going to check intotheir systems, See if we use
real dollars.
There's some argument that, yes, in fact we're giving them
money to get high, but we'retrying to help them restore the
freedom of choice, whether theywant to use or not, by
attracting them to change, Notmandating change, which never
works.
So we have to attract thatchange and it looks good.
The grass is really greener onthe other side With the crypto

(15:12):
component and silver coin.
We can continue to sustain thatreward mechanism longer and
they can actually get entrenchedinto that new lifestyle for a
longer period of time and reallyget a good handle on it.
And they can't just go buydrugs with it, because drug
dealers don't take crypto.
They have to go through a lotof work in their brain to

(15:33):
convert that crypto into realdollars, to get money, and blah,
blah, blah.
We want to create that.
You have crypto.
Now you can buy a coach.
Now you can buy training.
Now you can do something toimprove the quality of your life
.
We want halfway houses to takecrypto.
Now you can get stable housing,which is the most critical
component for people to getbetter, is a freaking address in

(15:54):
a shower.
They can't do that from a tentand they can't do that from a
rest area, they can't do it fromCracker Barrel, Winnebago.
They need to have an address.
So when we get those systems inplace and other providers on
board, then we have a chance tomake a dent on a large scale,
which is what my goal is is toreally move the needle, so to

(16:15):
speak, not just to get in thegame, but move that needle
because we can, and it's shameon us for not doing it sooner.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
Right and I always feel that we're kind of behind
the ball a little bit when itcomes to just being in front of
the curve, as you put it,because we are always behind the
curve, it feels like when itcomes to approaching addiction
treatment.
A lot of the states years agosaid, well, we're not going to

(16:49):
treat the disease, we're justgoing to lock everyone up.
So that put a huge strain onour criminal justice system and
nothing got better.
People were filling up theprisons, costing the taxpayers
billions of dollars every year,and they still weren't
addressing the idea of how do wetreat this disease that some

(17:11):
people say there's no known curefor.
But we do have the ability todevelop coping mechanisms.
We have the ability to learndifferent ways to manage the
disease and keep it arrested inour lives.
So earlier you said the 12 stepprograms were a well, the 12

(17:33):
step approach.
Do you consider that to be aviable resource that can go
along with contingencymanagement as a tool for people
to use in a support group, in anetwork?

Speaker 2 (17:49):
12 step facilitation and 12 step models have their
place, but they had beenidentified as the panacea and
every treatment center was using, basically introducing clients
to something that's free in thecommunity.
So when we look at the historyof 12 step model, it was all
free, there was no cost involved, and then the treatment centers

(18:12):
adopted that and the insurancecompanies colluded with that and
made it real.
And the success rate howeveryou measure success, which at
that point was a year'sabstinence with success, was
like what?
9%?
I mean it's like you can't dothat with cancer, you can't do

(18:33):
that with any other disease andstay in business.
So it's just been this oneclusterfuck of collusion with
the insurance companies andMedicare and it's all driven by
the dollar and not really bypeople's well-being.
So I mean that's a tangent.
I probably don't want to get ontoo deep my attitude towards
the treatment center industryand how they have perpetuated

(18:54):
this nonsense that if you comehere you're going to get better.
No, you're going to come hereand not die for 30 days or 90
days and then we're going tohelp you maybe, but once you
leave you are not a revenuestream for us.
So we're really going to tellyou we care, but we really don't
, and I only know this becausehaving been a part of it for 30
years and watching this horriblething occur day after day after

(19:17):
day.
So we all know when people wantto get better, it doesn't
matter whether it's the mostluxurious place in the world or
a tent on the side of the road.
When they're ready to give upthe high cost of low living,
they'll do anything.
And whether it's a 12 stepmodel and then a meeting where
it's just that one person,because that's what's missing.

(19:40):
Addiction leads to socialisolation yes, absolutely.
And when they don't have thatperson other than another using
body which is not a using bodybut just another way to get more
, they have no way out.
There's no guide, there's nostopgap for them.
So that's that.
So again back to the coin.
When we incentivize people andgive them an opportunity to be

(20:03):
their best self for an extendedperiod of time and they find
themselves with their feet underthem for the first time and
both of us are our own successstories to tell, we know that.
We know what worked and whatwasn't that worked.
It wasn't that we ran out ofdrugs because we could always
get more.
When we ran out of moneybecause we could always figure
out ways to get more.
It was about that person.

(20:25):
Somewhere along the linewhatever it is that we believe
in presented that one personthat we latched onto and drank
their Kool-Aid and drank thatKool-Aid whatever they had to
offer, and that's what did it.
And then we may have outgrownthat person or not, or they
could still be in our lives, butthat was a hook that somebody

(20:45):
believed in us when we didn'tbelieve in ourselves anymore.
And no matter how many creativeinterventions we come up with,
that's the linchpin of it all islinking that person with that
addict, with somebody, andwhoever that person is, whether
we call them a coach, acounselor, a therapist, a case
manager, a parole officer.
My method on counselor was myperson.

(21:08):
Yeah, because I said to her Isaid look, I got this letter in
the mail, I got an opportunityto get on a plane and go to
Florida and save my life.
And she said let me give youcab fare to the airport right
now.
I said, well, I can't, I got tothis.
I got to that.
Shut the fuck up and get in thecar.

Speaker 1 (21:30):
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
That's how it went and, yeah, I dicked around for
the rest of the day chasingcocaine, right, but I did get on
the plane that night.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
And I never.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
I never looked back and I'm glad to say it'll be 35
years November 1st that I'dlanded in Palm Beach County and
haven't picked up since becauseI became teachable.
That was the other keyingredient being teachable and
letting go of this grandiose egocraziness in my brain that you

(22:02):
know I'm a sober liberty.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Sober liberty oh my gosh.
How many I you know?
That just makes me laugh,because I'm I'm thinking about.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
That's my new word.
That's my new word.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
That's going to be the word of the day.
Okay, so everybody out there,if you felt that you were a
sober liberty, please email theshow and let us know how that's
changed your perspective nowthat you're in recovery.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
We want to talk to you.
We want to talk to you becausewe want to hear that story of
how you became a sober liberty,because everybody wants to be
Ben Affleck who can freaking usewhenever he wants and go to
treatment whenever he wants andstill maintain a multimillion
dollar income.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
I want to be that guy , right, right.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
I want to be that guy who the insurance companies are
so banked on.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
I want to be that guy Right, but he's he looks.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
He doesn't look happy , I don't care, he doesn't look
happy in his eyes, he justdoesn't look happy.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Well, I mean even look at.
Oh gosh, who's the other actorthat was recently in all the
press with the court case fromPirates of the Caribbean?
Oh, what was his name?

Speaker 2 (23:14):
Johnny Depp, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah, oh my gosh, that's a mess yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
Characters in action.
Yeah, he's an unmanageable mess.
But then you read about Eminem,who, what we read about, he's a
12 step in full.
He's a 12 step anybody.
I mean.
He is so drenched in recoverynow it's just amazing.
And and he, his art only gotbetter.
It did only got better.
Yeah, he only got moreinsightful and more articulate

(23:42):
in terms of his commentary onsociety.
No, he didn't take a hit at all.
And that's the biggest strugglewith every artist I work with
and its own drugs is that theythink the arts going to go.
I said it's only going to getbetter and I could say trust me
all day, but that's like he usedcar salesman.
Yeah, so that doesn't work,yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
No, and so and it's, it's so amazing.
So let me ask you this so we'retalking about contingency
management and the other thingthat pops into my head is, you
know, the idea that we'reputting a bandaid on something.
So here in California we havean, and Canada is really doing

(24:19):
this, and I read an article incounselor magazine through one
of our providers out here, a Ccap, who manages the licensing
and licensures of counselorshere in California for the
addiction professionals, andthere was an article in there
and it was talking about howCanada would have these using

(24:40):
centers where they were actuallydosing people with heroin and
they were giving them, you know,a good quality heroin versus a
street quality, because theyknew where it came from, what
was in it, it wasn't filled withfentanyl and it wasn't going to
fucking kill people out there,right.

(25:02):
And so that harm reductionapproach is that also considered
to be a harm reduction approach, the way that we're looking at
using contingency management tohelp people manage their
addiction and hopefully gainsome skills to stay sober?

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yes, yes, you can classify every intervention now
into a harm reduction philosophy, because total abstinence is
not going to be an effectivemodel for most especially this
younger generation.
If there's such a thing, Idon't even know where that cut
off is anymore, because theystarted using it like 10 or 11
and they're already introducedto excess in the porn and the

(25:45):
addiction.
You know that pathway forrewards starts so young.
So regardless of that, so we'retalking about, you know,
management.
We're always going to be a harmreduction management model
where we're not going to look at, you know, the only measure of
success and it wasn't untilNatap redefined recovery, after
however many decades of me which, in my opinion, wherever it

(26:07):
went where it was really aboutimproving the quality of your
life, there's so many peoplethat can actually use it safely
and you know I'm not one of them, I don't even want to risk
trying to be one of them, butthey can manage their lives long
as they don't do certain thingsRight.
Yes, there's a professor at aColumbia University who is a big
proponent of weekend heroininjection and he travels around

(26:31):
the country saying he uses andhe's a big crack addict.
He just doesn't use crackanymore because he can't, but he
shoots heroin and talks aboutit on talk shows and he's a big
proponent of people who canactually use because abstinence
is a realistic goal.
So the dilemma is the 12 stepfacilitation model.

(26:53):
Set it up.
Then, if you use, you lose andyou give up your clean time and
you no longer grow and you nolonger are spiritual.
And that's just not true.
That's a myth that's beencreated Because when people
really study the history of BillWilson, they see that he was so
smart.
He was looking at ayahuascabefore they called it, that he

(27:14):
was looking at psilocybin andLSD.
Way back then he was doingXanax.
Well, it wasn't Xanax, yeah, itwas the value, yeah, and it was
Milltown, it was all the otherthings, because this is a
bipolar guy and it's likerunning around trying to keep
this shit together and not usealcohol.
So he was great, grasping atany straw he could to not drink

(27:35):
and anything that would work,work.
And he didn't say, well, I'mnot a recovering alcohol again
anymore because I use all theseother chemicals.

Speaker 1 (27:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:44):
You know, you know, and the people that really
really are purists know thisabout that history and and have
an open mind, because that'swhat it's supposed to be.
You're supposed to beopen-minded to whatever works
for the individual.
It doesn't mean it generalizesto everybody, sure.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
Sure.
Well, this is.
This is so exciting to have youon the show today and it's very
exciting to learn about this,this new program that is
starting to Roll out in a lot ofdifferent states throughout the
US and they have seen success.
I believe up in Canada andcorrect me if I'm wrong, if you
know, but I think Canada hasseen a lot of success with this

(28:24):
and I'm sure other countrieshave as well.
It wouldn't be surprised me atall if you know Norway or maybe
the Netherlands or one of thosecountries over there, because
they are very kind of cuttingedge with the way that they
approach health care and for thecommunity.
So let's talk a little bitabout One aspect of sure.

(28:46):
Go ahead, dr.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Let me just interrupt you for a sec.
So the other countries?
Obviously you know they grow up.
Their introduction tosubstances is a whole different
attitude.
Right from the beginning,portugal, as we know, set the
tone and legalized everything.
Right.
They just legalized everythingand their drug problem decreased
.
They actually took money thatthey were spending to

(29:08):
criminalize and lent it to drugdealers.
They would let drug dealerscome to the bank and borrow
money because they know howentrepreneurial they are.
Yeah right yeah, of coursethey're good at making money
right, and so they would lendthem money to make things better
.
And the prisons are emptyingout because you're not
aggravating themselves withstupid stuff, because these are

(29:29):
nonviolent people, you justthey're just lost in terms of
their own journey in life andand so that's.
And so now Portland, oregon, asour model city, has done
similar things and it's workingin the sense of the data they
collect, which, again, let mejust Premises that data that
they're collecting my researchand governments is always skewed

(29:50):
to say what they wanted to say,right, usually, and if they put
out the truth then probablyeverybody would kill themselves,
so you know.
So we want to buy into whateverwe think is going to make us
feel better and and basicallySooth us so we can function and
and keep our denial and check,because otherwise, without that,
we would all be in trouble,sure, so so Portland's working.

(30:13):
They're using psilocybin andthere's no contingency
management, because the laws ofattraction are what's working
and what's operating, and theattraction is to change in
growth and growth andcontribution, contribution to
the community, not to be anoutlier and to be a stone
thrower, but let's see what we,we as a collective, can fix

(30:34):
together to make it better.
We and that includes the lessfortunate and includes the
wealth you know.
So there's those two extremesthat people can coexist, you
know, that's the whole idea.
Whether whatever religion wouldever release Whatever gender,
whatever sexual present, itdoesn't matter, because
everybody's in the same boatCalls humanity right.

(30:55):
That's the idea.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, well, you know it's.
It's so interesting to see thisprogression of New approaches
to treating addiction.
One of the ways that you guysare approaching it with sober
coin and you made mention ofthis earlier is that with the
cryptocurrency, now the personthat is receiving the currency

(31:16):
can reinvest in their ownrecovery so they can go and pay
for coaching, they can go andpay for therapy, they can go and
and return the money into asober living house or a sober
living environment where they'restaying.
So this isn't just puttingmoney into their pocket.
We're actually creating a wholesystem, network where now the

(31:41):
attic is being able to supporttheir own recovery with other
tools.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
So that's the idea, is that people have to know
responsible for themselves,right?
It says right in all the12-step stuff.
Yeah you are responsible foryour recovery.
You're not responsible for yourdisease, but you are
responsible for your recovery.
Therefore, you need to reinvestin getting better.
We gave them tools with ourmodel.
With sober network, we have acoaching school for people to

(32:10):
train.
We have a coaching program forpeople who are trained to be
coaches.
We had a house that we wereusing an accepting crypto
because I had to do asmall-scale model to show that
the idea worked.
You know one of those and again,attracting somebody with an
envision like me, or buying intothe vision and seeing it is
painstaking because it's very,very Expensive on every level.

(32:33):
Right, because I had to beconsumed with it in order to
make that sale of people to buyinto it and to listen.
So when you're coming from leftfield, they just keep you out
there if they can, because theydon't want to rock the world.
When I created the mobile appsober systems in 2011 and was
recognized by Samhsa with with amedication management grand

(32:56):
prize award Of for Suboxone,oops.
And if they relapse, where dothey need to go Back to the same
center?
So the center needs to connect.
Right, they need to connectwith that client when they

(33:16):
discharge, but that's not whathappens.
They send them across thecountry to an halfway house and
that's it Done.
Next, next, next, fill the bed.
And that doesn't serve theclient, it doesn't serve the
family and it's a sabotage.
They set up the fail, but thetreatment center gets paid right
.
That's the bottom line.
So I got very disillusionedbecause I beat my head against

(33:40):
the wall and my pocketbook,banging on the doors of the
treatment centers to implementthe change.
Some did, most didn't.
Probation said we can't usethis because it will displace
people's employment and getreplaced by a machine.
I said well, you better buckleup, because that's what's
happening with AI.
You know the drug courts, themost important component over

(34:02):
the community and the criminaljustice.
I said here's a tool.
You could do thiselectronically.
You don't need bodies.
And they're like this is great,but we can't do this.
We don't have any money.
I said make the defendant payfor it.
Well, that's too cumbersome.
And I'm like are you kidding me?
You just don't want to dochange.
Just tell me that.
Don't tell me you're going todo this.

(34:23):
And then I gave them look, I'llgive you a way to pay for it
and they can get better out ofyour courtroom.
We don't want that, then wewant to have jobs.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yeah, it's always.
It's going uphill without apaddle man.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Oh man, it's so much fun to watch this happen and to
continue to tip it with thosebecause we know I know from my
experience now that everythingthat I saw, however many years,
is happening, and that's thereward Everything management was
passed by law.
I was so excited I almost Icouldn't stop dancing for like

(35:01):
months because this was going tohappen.
And then I realized that thecounty administrators had no
idea what they were doing and noidea what this meant, and it
was a learning curve.
And now, a year later, they'regoing to try to put a trial in
place without the propersoftware and the proper reward
by mechanism.
But I'm going to take what Ican get and bang on the doors
until they're listened and hearthat this is the way to do it.

(35:24):
And I'm not that smart that I'mthe only one.
There's other people that haveseen this and are also poised
and ready, I think, to make thedent and move that needle,
because contingency managementhas been going on in the prison
system since they started itRight.
The guards are like if you dothis right, you'll get more
exercise time and you clean thishallway, you'll get to see your

(35:46):
partner, and that's how theyevolve the conjugal visits, and
that's how they evolve to aparole and to halfway houses,
and that's where all this comesfrom is criminal justice.
So there's nothing new.
It's the adoption of thingsthat have been in place and
affected for many, many years.
It's just finally waking upthat what they've been doing is
not really working like theywant people to believe it as

(36:09):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Exactly.
Well, man, this is such a greattopic, and what I would like to
suggest to you, dr J, is I'dlike to revisit this topic in
six months and talk about theprogression of the sober coin
and kind of get an update onwhere you guys are at with it.
If we've seen any data comingout of California, I'm sure it's

(36:35):
probably going to take sometime before they start releasing
numbers.
But I think it would be veryinteresting to touch base again
and kind of see where theindustry is going with all of
this.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
Right, and remember they went from a 30 day model to
a 90 day extended care withhalfway houses.
I mean this was all fragmenteduntil it became one continuous
continuum of care.
And now it's IOP and PHP thatcame out of Florida.
We call it the Florida modeland I know the guy that

(37:06):
originated this extended caremodel and it was an amazingly
effective model.
It was better than anyresidential treatment I'd ever
been in where every minute ofyour day was accounted for.
Yes, and when you do that, youare setting yourself up to fail
and eventually use again.
So if you had to toe the lineand it was really critical and
he was really really good at itand a pioneer, a pioneer beyond

(37:30):
others in.
You know that's what it takes.
It takes, you know, the firstone through the wall is using
the bloodiest one.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
That's what I've learned.

Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yes, yeah.
Well, all right, six months.
It is coming in sometime inMarch.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
So all right.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
That'll be on the calendar.
That'll be fantastic and I'mreally looking forward to having
you back on the show.
I want to thank you very muchfor taking the time today.
I know you're on your lunchbreak.
It's 12 o'clock in Florida andnine o'clock here in California,
so I appreciate you taking thetime with us.
You're welcome.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Thank you for giving me a voice, because this is I'm
seeking here from the intensity.
I'm really passionate aboutthis and we can we can make it
happen.
It's not a, it's not a one manjob.
This is just as a collectivethat we can move that needle and
see a lot of people get betterand be their best selves.

Speaker 1 (38:18):
All right.
So if if anybody would like toget information about the show,
we're going to list all theinformation in the show notes.
But, Dr J, can you tell themhow to find more information
about sober coin and the silververse?

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Well, I have a number of websites, but most
importantly the soberversecomwww.
Soberversecom.
Everything is there becausethat's the direction it's headed
.
I think we grabbed that as fastas we could because we want to
be a collective.
We have recoverycoachescom,sobercom for Leaves and Jen to
find information.
We, you know, we have sobersystems, your mobile app free

(38:51):
download and, of course, myemail is Jonas at
sobernetworkcom and I'm prettyresponsive, so have at it.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
All right, dr J, thank you very much for coming
on the show today.
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