In Conversation With...#1 - Holly - The Dysregulated Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
G'day everybody.
My name is Elliot Waters andyou're listening to the
Dysregulated Podcast.
As always, thank you for tuningin and a special welcome to
this new series, the InConversations With so.
I'm your host, elliot Waters,and in this feature we will be
diving deep into conversationswith individuals who have a

(00:21):
lived or living experience withmental illness, offering real,
raw and genuine insights intowhat it's like to navigate the
complexities of mental illhealth.
The aim is to bring authenticstories to light, encourage open
conversations and create aspace where we can ultimately

(00:41):
learn from each other.
So this episode may includediscussions of sensitive topics
such as suicide, self-harm,substance use, sexual violence,
domestic violence, trauma andother mental health-related
issues.
These conversations offergenuine insights into mental
illness, but they may bedistressing for some listeners.

(01:02):
If any of these topics aretriggering for you, please take
care of your wellbeing and reachout for support if needed.
Listener discretion is stronglyadvised.
All right, that's on record.
Let's hope that this is working, but if not, like I said, we'll
just do it again.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yeah, easy.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
So, holly, it's great to be here with you again.
Welcome back to the show.
Today is a little bit different.
This is a new segment.
I suppose that really only wasthought of.
I guess we've had the idea,haven't we?
We've spoken before about howwe have a lot of good mental
health conversations and oftenwe go geez.

(01:46):
Wouldn't it have been great ifwe were recording what we were
just talking about?
How cool would that be?
Well, the idea is, ladies andgentlemen, that that's exactly
what we're going to be doinghere today, which is just having
a general chit-chat about lifeand all that that means and,
yeah, going through some mentalhealth topics and and just sort

(02:09):
of vibing out and having a goodtime.
So thank you everybody forjoining us.
Holly, how are you feeling?
How you doing?

Speaker 2 (02:16):
yeah, all right, I'm a little bit nervous, as I
always get when we startrecording things, but I think we
have some really goodconversations that need some
input from the outside world andprovide some really good
insight into mental health andthe system and everything in
between.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Oh, the system.
Yeah, we'll get on to that in aminute, but yeah, well, thank
you for coming on again, I guessbroaden the scope of
understanding and offer someinsights for people that I think
hopefully they will find quiteuseful through our experiences

(02:55):
and it's always good to chatwith you because we seem to sort
of vibe off each other so well,but also because our stories
are a little bit different, sowe come at the same topics from
different angles, albeit we tendto come up with the same
conclusions, which is nice.
But yeah, so now I'm reallypumped, really excited.

(03:15):
So I guess, how I gruntedbefore at the New South Wales
mental health system or thesystem more generally, how have
you been lately and have you hadany experiences with the system
?
That's worthy.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Yeah.
So I've just come out of thepublic system where I had access
to multiple psychiatrists anddoctors and mental health nurses
and dieticians andpsychologists, et cetera.
So I've just gone into theprivate system and it has been
difficult navigating the privatesystem.
Somehow, whatever I say is veryreactive.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Private or public system.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
The private.
So what I've found the lastcouple of months like having
private psychiatrists.
If I say couple of months likehaving private psychiatrists, if
I say I'm feeling pretty low orI'm like really enjoying life
and improving, like have, thecontext is I have bipolar
disorder.
Either way, the alarm bellseemed to go off in the doctor's
heads and I just seem to getshipped into psych wards when I

(04:20):
don't really feel I need to bethere.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Which is crazy, because I'm begging to go into a
psych ward and I would say Idefinitely need to go, and yet
they won't put me in.
And yet here you are on thecomplete other side of the coin.
Flip the coin, you're on theother side, but you're getting
put in when you don'tnecessarily believe that you
need to go.
I find that very interesting,how there's that disparity

(04:44):
between ourselves.
I don't know.
It's interesting to me, yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I find it very frustrating because it seems to
be that if you get labeled withsomething like I have, like type
one bipolar disorder, that youjust everything you say, becomes
again reactive, whereas becauseElliot's been labeled with
things that are apparently ashe's told me is more
psychosocial problems, thatdoesn't seem to get addressed as

(05:10):
seriously as this wholeneurochemical thing that I've
apparently got going on.
So it just is very frustratingfor me because I get
over-managed and Elliot'sgetting under-managed and I just
want to give him some ofwhatever I seem to have that
doctors take advantage of.

Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, see, you get sort of.
I guess a lot of mental healthprofessionals would look at you
and look at your diagnosis ofbipolar type 1 and that would be
all they sort of see, whereas Ithink for me it's similar, but
this time it's in the case ofborderline personality disorder

(05:52):
that they see me and BPD andthat's just about it.
And I guess, yeah, there's thattendency to really play it safe
with bipolar and keep thosemanic episodes under control.
It's obviously so difficult toascertain if it's a manic
episode or if you're just happyin life.
I am sure that would befrustrating.

(06:13):
But with BPD, people withborderline personality are often
we get generalised into beingattention seekers, which isn't
the case at all.
But that is the stigma thatcomes with BPD.
So instead the idea is I'mguessing that they don't want to

(06:33):
put me in the psych wardbecause things aren't actually
that bad.
He's just overreacting to thesituation.
But that's the whole point ofthe disorder is that I do
overreact to situations andthat's the problem.
But it's not about attentionseeking, but I'm certainly help
seeking.
So it's very frustrating, youknow it's.

(06:54):
It's a shame we couldn't swapwell, not swap disorders so much
or anything like that.
But I don't know.
Just swap the way in which thesystem deals with us.
Because, yeah, as we know, ifyou've listened to the show long
enough, that I'm crying out forhelp essentially, whereas, yeah

(07:14):
, you are going pretty good andyou're being afforded help that
you don't really need, which initself can be detrimental.
So it's very frustrating, isn'tit?
Really annoying?

Speaker 2 (07:25):
So just to touch on the BPD again.
You have to correct me if I'mwrong, because I'm definitely
not an expert and I don't havethe disorder, but your episodes
tend to be smaller Small is thewrong word.
The duration's not as long, sothey're absolutely as intense as
a manic episode in bipolar ordepression, but they just don't
last as long.
So therefore, doctors, whenyou're presenting with an

(07:49):
episode, of whatever kind it is,and you're looking to be put
into a ward, are they goingright, this is only going to
last X amount of hours, or maybea day or two, but then he'll
bounce back and be all right.
Is that what they're thinking?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'll answer the first part first, which is it is a
bit like bipolar, but compressed, in that the mood swings,
instead of happening over weeksand months, are happening day by
day, and when I'm reallyramping the most like I'm having
mood swings every five to 10minutes, like it's terrible.
It's not good, but I think partof the reason that

(08:29):
psychiatrists in the publicsystem don't want much, it
appears, to do with people withBPD is partly because the gold
standard treatment forborderline personality disorder
does not involve medications.
It's all therapy, because youcan't really medicate
personality.
So dialectical behaviourtherapy, dbt, is the gold

(08:50):
standard treatment, and youdon't get DBT therapy in acute
psychiatric wards.
It's just not the environmentand they can't facilitate it,
which is fair enough, and oftenthere is, I think, a bit of that
idea that this person's got BPD, they'll calm down.
You know, in a little bitthey'll calm down, and they

(09:10):
should be right to go.
I think there is a bit of thatway of thinking.
But the problem is, though,that even if we do calm down the
, the next swing in eitherdirection is is is coming, and
it could be coming quite swiftly, and the results can be quite
disastrous as well, because BPDis a disorder that is very much

(09:32):
marked by impulsivity.
So you can imagine if you'rehaving a mood swing into the
depressive side of things,coupled with that impulsivity
that can drive substance abuseand other reckless behaviours
which can then amplify thedepressive sort of spiral
episode that the person is in.

(09:52):
Then all of a sudden we have abig, big problem, which is a
problem that an acute care teamin a psychiatric ward, for
example, I think can come to therescue a bit and return the
individual back to their sort ofstable way of proceeding in the
world.
But yeah, it's a tough onebecause that stigma around

(10:18):
attention seeking is sodetrimental to those of us that
have BPD.
Because, yeah, quite simply ourI guess our what's the word?
Our view of the world and howwe convey that to the mental
health provider it's not takenas seriously as some of the

(10:38):
other disorders.
Because, yeah, there is thatidea that someone with BPD is
just craving some attention or,let's say, validation.
How dare you Craving somevalidation?
It's not actually that serious,you know.
They're sort of putting on anact to get the response that
they want, you know.
So it's not as serious, butthat's not true.

(11:00):
The response that we want is sowe can push back against the
flood of negative emotion thatis just charging in.
I don't know, I don't knowanyone, in all my sort of time
of doing this whole mentalhealth thing, which is just
about forever for me I've nevermet anyone with BPD where I

(11:22):
would say that they're justattention-seeking like the
stigma of attention-seeking justwanting that reaction.
It goes deeper than that.
Even if it doesn't appear so onthe surface, people with BPD
have some real fundamentalpersonality issues at play and
views of the self and all thatsort of stuff, really deep stuff

(11:45):
that can manifest itself alittle bit, I guess,
superficially maybe on thesurface, but it's always coming
from a very, very deep,fundamental place.
And I think that is forgottenamongst a lot of mental health
providers and they just look atBPD and go, oh look, you know
he's just bunging it on, youknow he or she's just looking

(12:08):
for attention.
It's not that big of a deal,just get them calmed down and
then we can get them out andit's like, well, no, it's
actually, there's more to itthan that.
But you know it's hard to.
It's hard to advocate foroneself when you're in those
moods, those crisis, acutemoments.
It's very difficult to convincea mental health provider that's

(12:28):
already got a bias againstsomeone with BPD to change their
mind and opinion on how you arepresenting and the fact that
you need help and deserve it.
It's very hard to do that whenthings are stable, let alone
when you're in those crisispoints.
So that's partly why the system, I think, fails those with

(12:50):
borderline personality disorder,because there's this wrong
perception about the motives, Iguess, for someone with BPD
going to hospital and then oftenthose with BPD are not given
the treatment that they deserveand desperately need.
So whereas in your case, I guessbipolar the system's much more,

(13:13):
I guess, not equipped Iwouldn't say equipped, but more
understanding of the fact thatbipolar is very biological in a
way.
So the gold standard treatmentfor bipolar disorder is
medications as opposed to BPD,that is therapy.

(13:33):
So psychiatrists, I think, aremore willing to try and
intervene for the person withbipolar disorder because I guess
they feel like it's more inkeeping with what they're able
to do.
But I don't know, I just lookat people as people and if
you're in distress, you're indistress.
It doesn't really matter In myopinion.

(13:54):
I'm not a mental healthprofessional, but I'm certainly
a mental health consumer ofthese services and I don't know.
I think we need to look beyondjust the labels and the stigma
and the bias that's inherent inthose and maybe just look at the
individual and the terribletime that they're having and
hopefully come up with a way toalleviate that in some way.

(14:15):
So anyway, that's my soapboxlittle point for today.
But yeah, I hope that answersthat question.
But yeah, it is often verydifferent the way that the
hospitals treat differentconditions.
Obviously, to a certain degreethere's a necessity because
these conditions are different,but I think there is certain

(14:39):
biases at play and unfortunately, those of us with borderline
personality disorder would beall too aware of that, and then
you as well, holly.
I reckon there's bias the otherway, which is that you need to
have all this extra attentionwhen maybe things aren't quite
as bad as what you're being ledto believe from the doctor that

(15:01):
it could be.
So I don't't know.
It's a tough one.
Don't get me wrong.
I rag on the system a lot, butI'm certainly not blaming any
individuals and I understand whyit is how it is.
I just really hope we can comeup with a way to improve it a
little bit.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
Yeah, so touching on that, I guess every time that a
mental health professional hasintervened, every time that a
mental health professional hasintervened for me, it's mostly
been medication-based.
So I have been given anantipsychotic or a
benzodiazepine and basicallybeen put on watch for however
long to make sure that I'mstable because of the medication

(15:38):
.
But obviously BPD is adifferent kettle of fish.
So another big question for youif you were coming into the
hospital having a BPD episodewhether it's high or low or
whatever it is how would youwant the professionals to handle
it?
Do you want to sit in a roomwith a psychologist for four
hours and just talk it out?
Do you want medication on board?
What would be the gold startreatment if you could choose

(16:02):
what you needed?

Speaker 1 (16:04):
That's a good question.
It's hard because when Ipresent to emergency departments
which unfortunately I doperiodically if you've listened
to the episodes, this is to thelistener at home.
If you've listened to enoughepisodes of this podcast, you'd
know that I've got quite a fewdifferent diagnoses.

(16:24):
Episodes of this podcast, you'dknow that I've got quite a few
different diagnoses and usuallyif I go to the emergency
department, if it's a BPDrelated sort of phenomena that
I'm dealing with, I tend to putit instead under the umbrella of
depression or anxiety orbecause those conditions, those
disorders, are more easily andreadily accepted by the mental

(16:48):
health teams than BPD.
So I try and downplay the BPDcomponent as much as I can, but
I can only do that to a certainextent because it is a key
driver of my behavior, rightlyor wrong, wrongly.
Borderline personality is a bigpart of me, um, which isn't as
big part as it used to be, butit's still very much a driver of

(17:10):
a lot of my negative emotions,thoughts and behaviors.
Um, but in the hospital setting, I think usually when I present
there, things are out ofcontrol.
So I'm well aware that to fixthe condition and move beyond

(17:31):
BPD, that requires lots and lotsand lots of therapy, of which
I've been doing for a while nowand we're chipping away.
But there's a lot more to do.
But if I go to the emergencydepartment it's because I'm
really in the hole big time andit scares me.
When I go to the emergencydepartment, it's because I'm,
you know, really in the hole bigtime and it scares me.
When I go that deep into thehole, that's when I've lost

(17:52):
control and I'm at the whim ofmy crazy crazy is probably not
the word maladaptive thoughtsand behaviors, but still
cognizant enough to know that Ineed to take myself to the
hospital because this is dangerzone, this is danger time.
So really for me it's all about.

(18:13):
It's not about attentionseeking, but it is about trying
to bring those overt sort ofexpressions of my disorders
under control in that moment.
So then I can hopefully bedischarged quickly back into the
community and then do thethings back home that I know I
need to do.
That will help me movingforward, which is, you know, all

(18:34):
the stuff I do go to work, youknow, do potty episodes, all
that sort of stuff, all the goodthings.
But in those moments when I'm atthe ED, when I rock up to the
Mater Hospital, like that's whenI'm out of control and I'm
scared, like truly scared,petrified of what I'm thinking
and the feelings that I'mfeeling and the fact that I

(18:56):
don't seem to have any way tostop the negative emotion
flooding in.
It just infiltrates everything.
Every thought is negative.
It's just, you know, thatspiraling has just gone so deep
that I don't know which way's up.
And what I would like from thehospitals is some help to find
the way back up, knowing fullwell that there's no magic pill

(19:18):
that's going to fix mypredicament because I've tried
them all, my predicament becauseI've tried them all.
So it is all about, I guess,minimizing the potential damage.
But at the same time it's notjust medications.
You said, would I like to talkto someone and really sort of

(19:39):
talk it out?
Yeah, probably, usually I would, once I'd relaxed a bit because
, you know, because thesethoughts, there's plenty of them
and often the best way to getthem under control is to
actually expel them from themind.
And that can be in a few waysjournaling or whatever, doing
these episodes like I do on thepotty, but also talking to a

(20:01):
doctor or a mental healthprofessional about these things.
So I guess it's a two-prongedsort of attack, but then I think
, with most presentations toemergency departments for mental
health, that's what you want.
You want the medications like abenzodiazepine, for example,
like a Valium, to calm down andget some level-headed sort of

(20:25):
thinking going, and then youwant to be able to talk about
what's been going on withsomebody, even if it's just to
clear your head of it a littlebit, and then come up with a bit
of a plan upon discharge.
That's what I would like.
Part of the problem, though, isthat, because, for me, my

(20:45):
condition has been going on forso long now like I'm sort of
wanting more than just adischarge plan into the
community.
As we know again, if you'velistened I've been begging for
some sort of admission somewhereto have a look at all the
medications I'm on and howthings are traveling on that
front.

(21:06):
So you know it's not when I'mdischarged, so yeah.
So basically, go in there first.
It'd be nice if there's not toomuch of a waiting period.
But look, you know that's justthe way it is.
You've got to deal with it.
The first thing would probablybe a medication like a
benzodiazepine to calm down andget back to some sort of
level-headedness, and then I'dlike the opportunity to then

(21:30):
talk about what's been going onand what has been the triggers
for this and then come up with aplan, upon discharge, what the
next steps are.
And that's where the problem'sbeen for me more recently, which
is that the next steps upondischarge have not been very
clear, and they're still notvery clear as I sit here talking

(21:50):
right now.
But that's pretty much what I'mlooking for usually when I
present to the emergencydepartments, and that doesn't
necessarily include beingadmitted to the actual
psychiatric ward where possible.
If that can be avoided, thatwould be great.
But sometimes it can't beavoided because you know things

(22:11):
are dangerous and it needs to becontained.
And although those acute wardsare not a fun place to be in, it
is still a safer environmentthan what could potentially
happen on the outside.
So yeah, I don't know, I don'tknow a lot of waffling there,
but if that makes sense, that'sgood.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
No, that's a brilliant answer.
Thank you for answering thatquestion.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
What about yourself?
What do you look for In aperfect world?
Let's say a realistic, but aperfect world?
How would you like to be dealtwith?
I suppose Because, again, wecome at the system from
different angles, but we're bothfeeling like we're not getting

(22:56):
out of it what we need.
So, in a perfect world, what isit that you would like to
happen?

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, so I guess I've got some recent experience with
this, having just been admitted, probably two weeks ago, for a
hypomanic episode that my friendbrought me in for.
So how I would have liked themto deal with me is that before
they go right, we need tomedicate.
You actually talk to me and seewhat the level of risk is, and

(23:23):
not just listen to my friend.
I understand that I don't haveall the insight when I'm in an
episode, but I like to thinkthis recent one that I had, I at
least had some insight intowhat was going on and I would
like to be talked to and thenideally not medicated, because
although the medicationsdefinitely can bring you out of

(23:44):
an episode, it affects me fordays afterwards, like I'm groggy
, I'm slow, I'm just like ashell, a zombie, I guess you
could call it of a person.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
So we're talking antipsychotics, aren't we?

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah.
So the most recent one, I gotinjected with one called Haldol,
not a massive dose, I don'tthink, but enough that it
knocked me for a good two, three, four days, and yeah.
So I'd like to avoid that atall costs and try and make a
community discharge plan where Ican be like in previous
episodes where I have absolutelyrefused to go to hospital.

(24:21):
The community team has come tomy house a couple of times a day
, literally just for fiveminutes, just to make sure that
I'm not a danger to anybody.
I'm taking my medication andI'm functioning enough that I
don't need to be in hospital.
So that would be my idealsituation.
But I know that resources arestretched thin and that's not

(24:42):
possible for everybody and thatputting someone in a psychiatric
ward is a lot easier thancommunity engagement.
But I just you get so muchtrauma out of psychiatric visits
.
The first one I ever went intoI was with people who were three
times my age and it was justnot a conclusive environment.

(25:02):
There's no like you see adoctor every couple of days and
they adjust your medications.
There's no like you see adoctor every couple of days and
they adjust your medications,but there's no engagement,
there's no therapy, there's notalking to people, you're just
left to your own devices, and Ireckon boredom can be just as
bad as a weapon, as mania.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Especially if you've got ADHD as well, which is very
much a disorder of boredom,which is very much a disorder of
boredom.
That's what I've found as wellin these wards that boredom is
enemy number one, and it's sotrue that they're not the most
comfortable.
You know, make no mistake,these wards are not holidays.

(25:42):
In a sense, I guess you'retrying to give your mind a bit
of a holiday from what it's beengoing through, but at the same
time you're with other peoplewho are also very, very sick and
are not the best versions ofthemselves, and that can be very
difficult, especially the firsttime you're admitted I remember
that was it was like adifferent world.
And ever since then I haven'tbeen able to, you know, just

(26:05):
ignore the fact that this goeson in our society, in our
community, that there's peoplethat are this unwell mentally,
whereas I didn't notice before,I was a bit oblivious, I suppose
, a bit ignorant perhaps,whereas now, since my
experiences in the wards, it'sreally been an eye-opener of how

(26:26):
difficult some people's livesare and there's a lot of us that
are facing those sorts ofcomplexities.
I had a really good question.
I was going to ask you andtypical ADHD brain, I've
forgotten, but it was going tobe a beauty.
But I guess with theantipsychotic, that's one about

(26:47):
antipsychotics, but the one thatyou were on I haven't had
before, and you said it knockedyou around for a couple of days,
and that reminds me of a quoteI heard once in relation to
antipsychotics, which is youcan't be psychotic if you're
asleep, and that's often whatthey do.
So how many days did you sayyou were sort of knocked out?
For what was the story?

Speaker 2 (27:08):
there, maybe like three or four days, like not
totally knocked out, but enoughthat, like someone would be like
, right, it's breakfast time,come and get your breakfast, and
I would have to sit there for30 seconds and go breakfast
breakfast.
Oh, that means I actually haveto get up.
It's like the neuropathways inyour brain are blocked, because

(27:29):
they're obviously blockingdopamine, which is what
antipsychotics do.
So that must just be some nastyside effect, because it was
just, oh, it was horrible.
You really are a zombie.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
Yeah, yeah, and pretty much all antipsychotics,
to varying degrees, have thatsort of effect when you were
injected with it.
I've never had an injection.
Well, I've had an injection,but not of a psychoactive drug
that I can remember, at leastthat I can remember at least

(28:03):
Whereabouts do they do it andhow long did it take for it all
to?
I'd imagine it would.
The effects of the medicationwould hit pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, it definitely did.
So I've been injected a coupleof times on different occasions.
So the first time I was on topof a bridge and like completely
just erratic and not safe sothey needed to inject me.
So they inject me in my buttcheek.
But this time, at the hospitaljust recently, because I was

(28:35):
willing and I said you know,okay, fine, like you got to do
this, do it.
Then they just did it in likethe top part of your shoulder,
like your bicep, tricep, toparea there.
Does it hurt?

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, it does.
Yeah, because I remember I gotan injection in the backside of
I don't know if it waspenicillin or something, some
antibiotic Back in the day.
I used to get chronictonsillitis before I got them
pulled out and I remember at theGPs they put the needle in and
I collapsed because I wasn'treally ready and that whole side

(29:08):
of my leg and buttock wasn'tparticularly prepared either,
and I pretty much collapsed onthe ground because it was,
excuse me, it was quite painful.
So yeah, and I remember thatneedle at least looking back now
felt like it was huge.

(29:28):
But that is a pretty drasticstep for them to take.
Were you not, I guess,cooperating?
Or were you?
What was their reasoning forhaving to go to those sorts of
lengths?

Speaker 2 (29:47):
Yeah.
So for the first time I wasobviously on top of a bridge and
, refusing to like, they broughtme over from the other side and
I'm sitting on the road and Ijust kept trying to get up and
get back over the railing and itwas just constant for maybe I
don't know 15 minutes maybe.
And eventually, when theambulance arrived, the police
were like right, this person'sclearly mentally ill they have a

(30:10):
word for it, I think it's likementally disordered or something
.
So they have an act that theylegally have a right to inject
you if they deem you mentallydisordered or mentally ill or
whatever it is.
So I obviously met thatcriteria the first time.
But then when I went into thehospital for this hypomatic
episode that wasn't very severein my opinion, they were just

(30:32):
like.
They were very honest with me.
They were like right, we seethat you're in some kind of
distress.
We want to get you out of it.
The easiest way to do that isan injection.
Would you be okay with that?
I said no.
They said, if you don't do it,we'll get a court order.
And I was like okay, fine,whatever you need to do, just do
it.
So they didn't even tell mewhat it was.
They just got the needle andwere like right, sit still,

(30:54):
please, bang.
Right, we've got you a bed inthe psych ward.
Here you go, Chill out.
After half an hour I was likecompletely.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Done and dusted.
That was it for the next coupleof days.
Absolutely yeah, becausethere's a real loss of autonomy
there in that little story.
And it's a tough one because ifit's a life or death situation
or there's danger immediatedanger to people in the
community, you could justifyusing it.

(31:27):
But do you think you're at thatpoint when they did this?
Do you think that justificationwas there?

Speaker 2 (31:36):
Probably the first time.
Yes, because I was quiteliterally trying to absolutely
hurt myself in the most deadlyway possible and I was combative
, like hitting the policeofficers, Not hard, I was just
trying to get away.
But I was just so totally outof it that, yeah, I think that
was warranted there.
But the most recent one Ireally didn't think I was in

(31:59):
that big of an episode, Ithought I was just enjoying life
.
But then again that could be menot having any insight into my
situation, which I struggle with, where this is where me and
Elliot need to swap disorders orat least half of them so that I
can have some insight and hecan have some of my ignorance
and hopefully get some help.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
The insight is killer .
I even said that to mypsychiatrist the other day and
he sort of chuckled and didn'treally know how to answer and I
was being very serious when Isaid that.
But yeah, it's.
Um, yeah, insight's a funnything.
It is a funny thing becauseit's.

(32:39):
It's great to know howeverything's operating, why it
is, but to actually implementthe changes required, that's the
hard part and that's the mostfrustrating part.
If you can see plainly what itis that needs to be done but yet
know that you're not able to dothe things that need to be done
, it's not a great feeling.

(33:00):
And that's again the contrastbetween your story and mine and
there's quite a few of them,although fundamentally they're
very, very similar is that levelof insight and what you said
just then is so important?
Because a lot of people whodon't have bipolar one, bipolar
two or any specific, I guess,mental health disorders that

(33:24):
results in a level of mania orhypermania, is that during these
episodes they are fun andenjoyable and you feel like
you're a million bucks and youknow.
And it can then progressfurther than that, where people
think that they're Jesus or thatGod's speaking directly to them
and they have to carry out.

(33:45):
You know there's.
You'd be better to answer thatsort of and illustrate that
point better than me.
But at the same time, you knowthe feedback that you hear from
people and I feel the same whenI'm in BPD mode and things.
At the same time, you know thefeedback that you hear from
people and I feel the same whenI'm in BPD mode and things are
all running hot.
You know it's.
You don't think about theconsequences, it just feels

(34:06):
awesome.
It's like, yes, especially ifyour baseline of living is not
particularly fun.
You know like.
You know like, but yeah, like,I would say.
For the most part, I'm in a in alevel of depression, you know,
most days and I'm certainlysuffering from anxiety attacks

(34:26):
constantly as well.
So when there is that bit ofrelief, like like, it's amazing.
And of course, it's amazingbecause it's like, yeah, this, I
think, is closer to how lifeshould be, not as opposed to how
life is.
For me usually and I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, but
that way of thinking is similarin your case as well in that

(34:49):
it's like, of course, this isfun because all of a sudden, you
know things are all rosy andcolourful and you know like
what's.
Of course, that would beenjoyable and something to try
and attain.
It's just knowing where thelimit is between, like, a
healthy level of hey, life isgood versus an unhealthy level

(35:12):
of I'm the Messiah and everyoneshould bow down.
You know, I don't know.
Does that sort of make sense?

Speaker 2 (35:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think I touched on it when Idid my like story, the intake
interviews, that like I strugglewith that now I just my
baseline is just boring and it'snot fun and it's just I just
hate it.
So I look for those adrenaline,dopamine, whatever you want to
call it in mania.
So that's why, during this lastepisode, I just was not seeing

(35:42):
that there was a problem,because I was finally getting
the feeling that I've beensearching for for months, maybe
even a year.
It had been since my lastepisode.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
So Do you find so your day-to-day baseline?
So you would call that yourbaselines in the zone of
depression.
Would that be right?

Speaker 2 (36:05):
basically, I probably wouldn't say it's in the zone
of depression.
It's just boring for me.
Adding to it is that like sowhen I just get up and I'm like
nonchalant, don't really mindabout anything, like breakfast
is good, like whatever happensnext is good, like and it's just
all.
It's all good, but it's justboring because it's not like

(36:28):
that high intensity emotion thatI just miss from the mania so
would it be?

Speaker 1 (36:36):
I'm just, I just really want to get a good handle
on this and good grasp aboutyour experience here.
Um is, would anhedonia comeinto it at all, the loss of
pleasure and activities that youused to find pleasurable?
Like everything's just flat andthere's just no like spark in
anything that you do.

(36:56):
It's just all going through themotions and it's just flat.
Is that sort of getting closer?

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, definitely, but I try very after doing a lot of
psychology work with this I tryvery hard to get those natural
endorphins, dopamine, adrenaline, whatever it is.
So I do that at the moment byexercising.
So I'll get up in the morningand I'll feel anhedonia and I'll
be like life is so boring, likeI'm flat, like, but then I'll

(37:22):
go for a run or I'll go to thegym and then after that my
baseline feels better thananhedonia, but not brilliant, if
that makes sense.
So there are definitely thingsthat I can do to improve that,
which I know some peoplestruggle with.
But just because I'm notworking at the moment, I can
focus all my energy on trying toget those feel-good hormones

(37:43):
naturally, because otherwise Iwill stop taking my meds and
I'll happily go manic, becausethat's what I'm struggling with.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
That was the next point, because correct me if I'm
wrong, but you're on lithium,the mood stabilizer, and
olanzapine, the antipsychotic.
So both of those medicationswhich I've been lucky enough to
have as well, both of thosemedications are quite well known

(38:12):
to have a relationship of somesort with this flat feeling,
because they both well, theantipsychotics in particular
dampen that dopamine rush andit's the dopamine rush often
which is that excited feelingthat drives us towards a goal.
And the antipsychotics put alid on that because
unfortunately for those withbipolar disorder or

(38:36):
schizophrenia, those dopaminelevels can go too high.
Then all of a sudden we getinto psychosis territory.
But the trade-off is that, okay, we're not in psychosis
territory, which is great, butnow we're in gray, dull, flat,
depressed sort of zone, and alot of people or a lot of

(38:58):
doctors would look at the Iguess the flat effect, as you
call it affect A-F-F-E-C-T theflat effect, or emotions, versus
the psychosis side of things.
Neither of those are greatoptions, but I guess the lesser
of two evils is probably theflat effect side of things,

(39:20):
because you don't have theenergy to carry out any
destructive behaviours If you'rethe person that's going through

(39:43):
it.
I'm guessing the response wouldbe that both are debilitating
and it'd be nice if we couldfind some sort of middle ground.
And I've found that with me withmy medications as well.
So, like when I was younger,I've always been a real
passionate, excited person.
I've spoken about borderlinepersonality already, but one
thing about BPD is strongemotions and that can go both
ways.
So when I was growing up andstuff, I definitely had the

(40:05):
negatives but there were somereal big positive rushes as well
.
And now that I'm medicated andand I've done a lot of therapy
around controlling emotions andmy head space and all that sort
of stuff, unfortunately I don'tget the rush of excitement like
I used to.
And it's so depressing becauseyou know like I'm a bit

(40:30):
different.
You know like there's a lot ofdisorders at play.
Autism is another one thatsprings to mind as well.
When it comes to this sort ofemotional regulation sort of
thing, part of my uniqueness, Isuppose, was my excitability at
different topics and how I wouldreally, you know, get so
passionate about things andunfortunately over the years

(40:52):
that's sort of been beaten outof me you could say, you know,
through medications, and so Istruggle a bit too, in the sense
that a lot of my meds, I guess,contain me, but they contain me
and pin me down at a level thatis not Elliot happy, it is
Elliot very flat and not reallyfeeling anything, and that, then

(41:13):
, is depressing, because I knowthere are joys in the world, but
I feel like sometimes I'd loveto know if you feel the same,
that in those moments when youdo feel nothing but joy for any
particular moment, for whateverreason, there's always this
caveat I think of, which is hangon, is this healthy?
Healthy, though, should I befeeling this happy, or is this

(41:36):
actually a problem?
So often I'm not able to betruly happy without being
anxious that it's the happinessis actually a negative, if you
know what I mean.
I don't know.
Do you have that similar sortof experience?

Speaker 2 (41:52):
yeah, I think so.
So when I've talked.
So when I was first made stablein inverted commas I talked to
psychiatrists about the factthat you know, life is boring,
like I feel flat, like nothinginterests me anymore, and
they're kind of like well,you're not manic and you're not
depressed so good, what are youcomplaining for?

(42:14):
Depressed so good, what are youcomplaining for?
So then I did a bit more.
So I talked to then apsychologist who was a bit more
helpful and he said the best wayto combat that is to do things
that get you natural endorphins,like go outside, exercise, hang
out with friends I've got twodogs, so hang out with them.
Like you got to do that sort ofthing to try and lift you out

(42:35):
of it.
But I think it's so chemicalit's not that easy.
I can sit here and tell you togo and exercise and see friends
and whatever else, but if you'reflat and you just don't want to
do anything, it's impossible toget yourself up.
It is so hard.
People who don't have thisproblem will not understand how

(42:57):
hard it is to pull yourself outof this rut that is induced on
you by medications that, ifyou're being real with yourself,
you don't want, because youwant the mania, or at least
that's where I come from.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah, and it's not just the medications doing their
thing, it's the disorders firstand foremost doing it as well,
like a lot of people thathaven't been through God love
them a mental health sort ofjourney personally themselves.
You know, like with depression,people often, will, you know,

(43:32):
stay inside and be a bitreclusive and it'd be hard to
get out of bed and it's hard todo the real basics.
And unfortunately, I've foundthat people some people don't

(43:56):
understand, some peopleunderstand acutely well that
there are some times where yourbrain just will not allow you to
do the things that you know youshould be doing.
And that happens to me so oftenwhen I do these big sleeps that
I do, which happened theweekend just gone again, another
two days spent in bed doingnothing, even though there were

(44:17):
things for me to do.
But I tried.
I tried to get up, I tried tobe functional, I tried to be a
part of living and engaging inlife, but I just couldn't do it
because my mind has all thesedisorders associated with it and
they're doing their thing,bringing me down and that's.

(44:37):
And so I get a bit frustratedwhen people look at inaction as
being lazy, when it's actually.
Inaction is a direct result ofhaving a mental illness, and
that that's really one of thosethings that frustrates me and
that's what I guess I'm tryingto do here on the podcast is to

(44:59):
get that point across over thecourse of the show that you know
, these disorders, they havetheir own, I guess, ways of
working and it's usually to thedetriment of the individual, the
self, and it's important thatpeople know that this is how
they operate.

(45:20):
And although on the surfaceagain, surface level there might
be certain indicators or lackof behaviors or lack of
engagement that might suggestsome degree of laziness, there's
actually a lot more going on ifyou peel back those layers and
that's why they're mentalillnesses.
You know there's no logic tothis in most cases, there's no,

(45:42):
you know, obvious reason as towhy so-and-so should feel so in
the dumps today.
But unfortunately that's how itis and we've got to deal with
that.
And yeah, I guess that's a bigpart of what I'm trying to get
across on here, but it's also.
But then that's where bipolaris so frustrating, because you

(46:04):
get the opposite as well, which,all of a sudden, you feel like
you're doing everything andeverything's falling into place
finally, and you've figured itall out.
How amazing is this?
But then that could be deemedunhealthy.
And then comes that extracomplex part which is then
knowing what's a healthy happyversus a manic happy.

(46:26):
And that's very, very difficult.
And bipolar as well, you know Isaid before about our BPD is
very much therapy-based as faras the gold standard, moving
forward and improving one'sprognosis.
Well, with bipolar it's theopposite.
It's medication.
And the psychology componentalso helps with bipolar.

(46:51):
But a lot of the times thepsychology component is about
building the habits to ensurethat you have the medication
when needed.
So it's supplementary to themedication sort of story.
But what that suggests is that,excuse me, that bipolar is very
chemically, it appears.
You know, there's a lot ofneurotransmitters doing their

(47:13):
thing and if they're literallynot firing as they need to be,
firing like that's as physicalas it gets, that's not just
mental illness, that's aphysical problem which is
causing then the flow on effectof maybe lack of behaviors or
too many behaviors at the sametime.
So yeah, I don't know.
It's all very confusing, that'sfor sure.

(47:37):
But it's very difficult for thepeople who are going through
this.
And there'll be a lot of youlistening, you know, sort of
nodding, going yep, that's me.
I feel that too, you know,we're hypervigilant, not only of

(47:58):
those around us especiallythose with anxiety disorders are
hypervigilant of potentialthreats in our environments, but
we're also hypervigilant ofwhat's going on inside our own
minds, and that in itself cancause big, big problems because
it wears you out, it brings onthis anxiety.
You can never be sort of calmand happy in the moment because
you're just always questioningwhether you know this is how it

(48:19):
should be, and then yeah, soanyway, I don't really know
where that tangent was going,but yeah, it's hard living with
mental illness is what I'mtrying to say, Something like
that.
Anyway, sorry, holly, wherewere we?

Speaker 2 (48:32):
That's all right.
I just want to talk aboutanother thing that came up
during my experience of beingstable again in inverted commas,
it's capacity.
So I got told that my capacityis never going to be the same as
it was when I was 17.
Like where the point where Iwas working eight 10 hour days,
doing sports training for threeor four hours afterwards, going

(48:53):
out drinking with friends afterthat and then going to bed at
one o'clock in the morning andwaking up again at seven.
I'm never going to be able todo that again.
It's basically what I got toldby a psychiatrist.
These medications are going todull you down.
You're going to live a verysimple life, but this is how I
took it.
You're going to live a simplelife, but you're going to be
stable and that's all we careabout.
So it took me a long time tocome to terms with the fact that

(49:17):
my capacity I just can't doeverything that everyone else
can do.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
Well, I speak a lot on the show about my capacity.
In particular, I tend to focuson my social capacity, or lack
thereof, so that comment thereresonates with me in a big way.
I don't know, though, if that'sis that.
I don't know, is that somethingyou should tell somebody?

Speaker 2 (49:43):
I don't know.
See, this is where I find itreally hard to get into a
romantic relationship, becausehow do I explain to someone that
you know I can't really beawake past 10.30 pm because my
medication puts me to sleep?
How can you explain that tosomeone who is my age, who's 21
and is in their prime?

(50:03):
And then, how do you meetpeople if your social capacity
is just zero and you can barelyget out of bed some days?
That's the thing that I'mfinding the hardest, because all
my friends are getting intorelationships and I'm just here
thinking I'm stuck by thesemedications that I put on to
conform to society standards ofwhat they want me to be, whereas

(50:25):
I could be happy as manic offin the UK, like I was before,
and just and actually meetpeople and enjoy my.
I know there's a swing back todepression and I'd have to deal
with that, but part of it, likethis, is a battle I have every
day.
Is it worth it?
Is it worth being stable butnot living, not thriving?

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah, because that's similar to what they're doing
with me, which is, you know,it's all about containment.
You know, contain the mostextremes, or the extremes of my
personality and how it manifestsitself into the you know the
world to our externalenvironment.
It's all about containment.

(51:07):
Our external environment, it'sall about containment.
It's not about, I guess, lifeenrichment and being able to
tick off the things that youwant to tick off.
There's no secret on this showI've mentioned many times, I'm
amazed you were the one thatbrought up romantic
relationships and not me, whichis usually, it's always at the

(51:29):
forefront of my mind.
But it's true like these, likewhy the medications, shouldn't
the medications and thetreatments be being used in a
way that does facilitate yourability?
And this is just, in general,anyone but like you know, you,
the person who's undergoingthese treatments to facilitate

(51:51):
the individual's ability to getthe things that they want out of
life, and that could be a lifepartner.
That could be, you know, a niceholiday here and there, and you
know, like, is that the lifeworth building that we're aiming
towards, whereas I think often,in psychiatry in particular,
it's all about, like I saidbefore, containment.
And containment, though,doesn't necessarily equal a

(52:16):
happy, fulfilling life and Ialways thought the end goal
should be the happy, fulfillinglife.
That might take containment inthe short, the medium term,
containment in the short, themedium term, but surely there's
a way to, once that's all sortedout, to then be able to build
on that contained, strong,fundamental, to then build on

(52:39):
that and get those things thatyou really want out of life.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah, you're hitting the nail right on the head for
me, because I have thisconversation with doctors in the
private system now that I'vemoved into there and they just
don't care, like, as long as I'mstable, they don't care that
I'm not thriving, that I'm notliving the life that I want to
live.
They just care that I'm notmanic and I'm not depressed.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
That's right.
Like you know, like I've alwayswanted, or my goal more
recently, has been to go backinto the transport industry,
because I feel like I've gotunfinished business when it
comes to transport and logistics, because I used to work in
transport when I was younger andI'll do some episodes on that

(53:23):
down the track, because it'salways nice when I reminisce
about it but the thing is,though, I can't go back into the
transport industry because ofthe multitude of though.
I can't go back into thetransport industry because of
the multitude of medicationsthat I'm on, in particular the
quetiapine, the antipsychotic.
The chlamypramine, thetricyclic antidepressant it has
sedative effects to it.
My new medication, metazapineit also has sedation as a side

(53:47):
effect.
These medications, and thewhole rest that I'm on,
essentially disqualify me frombeing able to operate, drive a
truck, basically, and althoughmy goal to return to the
transport industry wasn't justto be a driver, I wanted to go
back in operations and be amanager, I wanted to lead a team

(54:09):
.
But I'm acutely aware as wellthat you've got to have and this
goes for any industry, buttransport especially, you've got
to have the credentials, andthe credentials is not a degree
in psychology.
The credentials is that I'vedone night shifts and I've
driven trucks and I've unloadedat different places, and I have
done that earlier in my careerbut I wanted to do a little bit

(54:30):
more of the work at the coalphase before I transitioned into
management and leadership andthen be a leader of men and
women.
That's what I wanted to do, butbeing on these medications has
disqualified me from being ableto do that, which is
unbelievably, dare I say.
It fired me from being able todo that, which is unbelievably,

(54:52):
dare I say it, heartbreaking,because the transport industry
is one of my loves and it'sheartbreaking to think that I
may not be able to return like Iwanted to.
And then it's like okay, so themedications are containing me.
Well, are they?
Seriously, you guys listen tothis podcast.
Are these medications reallydoing much for me?
Really?
I reckon I could come up with apretty strong argument to say

(55:15):
that their positive effects arenegligible at best.
But either way, let's just saythat they are containing some of
my behaviors.
That's all well and good, butthey're disqualifying me from
the career that I would like tohave, which is you.
Career is a huge part of one'slife and people gain so much

(55:35):
satisfaction and engagement andempowerment from their career,
and I've been disqualifiedbefore I can even get back to
the start line by thesemedications, which is making me
depressed.
So it's like, okay, what goodare these medications doing?
Yeah, maybe they're doing thiscontainment, which is important,

(55:56):
but what's the point if thenokay, yeah, I'm contained and
everything's good, but I can'tactually do anything because I'm
too lethargic because of theantipsychotics or you know what
I mean like and unfortunately,psychiatry, especially in the
public system, but the privateas well.

(56:16):
But the public system, or atleast in these wards, there is
only a limited amount of timethat can be devoted to each
patient.
So you know the the doctors are, I guess, focusing on the most
acute manifestations of thesemental illnesses that we have

(56:37):
and are trying to get them undercontrol term with a
psychiatrist.
Unless you've got lots and lotsof money and can afford to see
a psychiatrist privately everyfortnight, which the majority of
us can't do, even though that'spretty much what I need, but I

(56:58):
can't afford it that's wherepsychology does a much better
job, because psychology, atleast in my experience, whether
that be through doing my degreeor the research that I've done,
or being a consumer ofpsychological services myself is
a lot more about.
All right now that there's thiscontainment, what behaviors can

(57:19):
we incorporate, what ways ofthinking can we incorporate to
create that life worth livingfrom now on?
But when it comes to psychiatryand the medication stuff, like
I'm on now eight medications andat no point has there been a
discussion about an exit plan ortapering off the medications.
You know down the track when Iget off the meds, you know

(57:42):
there's been no discussion aboutthat at all.
It's just thrown more at me.
And that's why the last trip atall, it's just throwing more at
me.
And that's why the last tripwhich you would have heard a few
episodes before when I'vespoken about it, my more recent
trip to James Fletcher to seethe psychiatrist there in the
public system I went in therewith some pretty clear goals,
which was to titrate or at leastbegin the withdrawal of these

(58:06):
medications, to sort of startagain from baseline, to see
first off what my baselineactually is nowadays, because
it's so hard to tell, becausethere's so many different levers
being pulled and we don't knowwhich which medications pull and
what lever.
Um, and then the plan was alsomy plan to get off the meds so I
could go back into thetransport industry, which I

(58:27):
could then build a life aroundthat fundamental building block,
and I walked out of there witha new medication instead.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
So that just infuriates me that they just did
not listen to anything that youneeded.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
Yeah, and it sort of infuriates me as well, because
then it becomes a question ofyour autonomy.
I think at the start of thisepisode we mentioned, or I
mentioned, about you losing yourautonomy when they said you
know, we're going to inject youwith this pretty much whether
you like it or not.
It's almost on a similar scalein the sense that the

(59:06):
psychiatrist said well, you'regoing to be taking this
medication unless you like it ornot, because you don't really
have a choice.
This is the way it's got to beand that's not.
I didn't go in there.
I had clear goals going inthere of what I wanted to
achieve out of that appointmentand I achieved nothing.
And it's also hard.
It highlights another problem,which is how difficult it is to

(59:30):
advocate for oneself in thesesituations, because I don't know
about you.
You tell me, but sitting with apsychiatrist is quite anxiety
provoking for me personally.

Speaker 2 (59:42):
I don't know if you feel the same, or it is very
much so, and from my experiencethey have their computer open,
they're typing notes.
They barely look at you andthen they're just you're waiting
for them to ask you a questionand then they're like bam, have
you had a low mood recently?
And then you go yes or no, andthen they type more and it's
just.
It's a horrible experience,like I hate it.

(01:00:04):
So my most recent I've been inthe private system now for
probably four months and so thepsychiatrist that I'm seeing I
wanted to start an ADHDmedication so that I could try
and find my thriving not justsurviving mentality, and this
psychiatrist basically dismissedme and said as soon as I said

(01:00:26):
I'm bipolar type one, he waslike nope, not going to happen,
didn't listen to me.
So then I had to try andself-advocate for the fact that
I think I need this, and I did aterrible job.
I just ended up saying please,like my life is just a waste of
time at the moment, can I pleasehave something to help me get a
job and engage in life the waythat I want to?

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Sounds fair to me.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
So that's, I engage in life the way that I want to
Sounds fair to me.
I just didn't know what else todo.
I basically begged him and hejust dismissed me and then I
paid $700 and off I went.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
Yeah, and it is a tricky one because there is a
real risk with stimulantmedications and bipolar.
That can't be denied.
There is that risk, and we'respeaking about dopamine before,
and a lot of mania and thosemanic episodes and psychosis,
even a lot of that is driven byexcess amounts of dopamine.

(01:01:21):
So obviously introducing amedication that increases
dopamine comes with it.
You know some things to becareful of.
But at the same time, as far asI'm understanding it although
again I'm no doctor, but youknow, I've been around the
system a fair while now.
I have come across people withbipolar who have their moods

(01:01:43):
under control, with moodstabilizers like lithium or
lamotrigine, maybe an antantipsychotic as well, like
olanzapine, like you have Hollyor quetiapine or I don't know,
risperidol, a whole stack ofthem, and often, well, this is
pretty much what happened withme with my first private

(01:02:06):
psychiatrist.
The idea was to get my at thatpoint.
Bipolar was a pretty you knowthat diagnosis was pretty
solidified with me at the timewith how I was presenting.
So the idea was, if we get themood, if we get the bipolar
under control first, and then weget the anxiety under control,

(01:02:27):
then we look at the stimulantmedication for the ADHD.
But that's the hierarchy thatneeded to be done.
Because if the bipolar, orlet's just say my mood
dysregulation, my emotionaldysregulation, if it wasn't
under control, the stimulantmedication would definitely fuel
more of that, and that's justthe way it goes and that's fair

(01:02:49):
enough.
I agree with that.
Fuel more of that and that'sjust the way it goes and that's
fair enough, I agree with that.
And then that was the anxiety,was the next component that
needed to be sort of lookedafter, because stimulant
medication raises norepinephrinelevels, which is the fight or
flight or freeze sort ofchemical, one of the
neurotransmitters that'simplicated in that sort of

(01:03:10):
response.
Um, so obviously stimulantsthat raise that as well.
If the anxiety is not undercontrol, then that can fuel more
anxiety.
But once those first initialsort of steps were locked in and
everything was running smoothly, then I was introduced the
stimulant medication, which atfirst was dexamphetamine.

(01:03:31):
It was just five milligrams aday, purely and simply to see
what it would do if it wouldrock the boat too much.
And in the end we found outthat it didn't, which was good.
And then, ever since I'm now, Itake lots of stimulant
medication to try and keep theADHD under control, and that's

(01:03:54):
where I'm at.
I guess the difference there isI was diagnosed bipolar type 2,
whereas you're diagnosed type 1, so you've got the potential
for psychotic features.
You've got the potential forpsychotic features, but I'm sure

(01:04:16):
I'm going to look into this ina little bit more depth after
this episode and I'll come backwith an answer, because I'm sure
well I know that there's lotsof people that have bipolar
disorder that also meet thecriteria for ADHD, and so you
know there are non-stimulantoptions for ADHD.
I think you said you've triedthem, like Stratera before, but
didn't really do too much, whichis why they're second line

(01:04:39):
interventions, because oftenthey don't do too much.
But to go back to your originalpoint, though, you know you
need adhd looked at so you canthen build on creating that life
that you really really want.
It's very functional.
You know it's gaining thatfunction back, and the

(01:05:00):
medication would have greatutility in unlocking your
potential and ability to getfull-time work, for example, and
do all these different things,and I think that's so important
To me.
I think it's as importantlooking at the on one hand and

(01:05:21):
this is traditionally how mentalhealth professionals have sort
of approached these things,looking at the negatives all the
time.
You know the deficiency modelso so-and-so is deficient in
this area and deficient in thisarea.
So we've got to fix thedeficiencies so they're back to
normal.
You know it could beinterpersonal stuff,

(01:05:41):
communication, you know, angercontrol, whatever emotional
control, emotional dysregulation.
But the other side of the coinis the more strength-based
approach where you try andamplify the good and then really
work on what the individual isreally good at and then leverage
that in the world to createthat life worth living.

(01:06:05):
But unfortunately in psychiatrythey tend to just throw
medications at you to try andalleviate the deficiencies but
there's next to no focus at allon the other side, which is the
things that you've got going foryou that are really good, you
know, and let's focus on themand make them even better.
Psychology was very much likethat for a long time.

(01:06:26):
It's starting to turn a littlebit now because obviously you've
got to look at the deficiencies, because they're the things
that are holding you back, butyou've got to look at the things
that you're good at too,because they're the ones that
are going to push you forward.
So you sort of need to have aprocess and this needs to be
part of recovery plans and thoseframeworks that are created by

(01:06:49):
mental health professionals.
I think that need to look atboth sides of the equation and
traditionally, at least in myexperience, I think you would
agree, holly, from what you'resaying, it's very
deficiency-based, focusedinstead.

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
It is so what I wish.
I would have come out with apsychiatrist appointment.
So I'd tried two non-stimulantsalready and I'd been on a
stimulant as a teenager when Igot diagnosed with ADHD.
So I brought all that evidenceto him.
I was like I'm on anantipsychotic, I'm on a mood
stabilizer.

(01:07:24):
I've been stable.
This was before I had thisepisode, the hypomanic episodes
but I've been stable for twoyears, like I really want to try
lowest dose possible, like myparents will be around to make
sure, like I'll have friendsaround, I'll have people around
to make sure that I don't loseself-awareness and become manic
or whatever.
But even if he was going to sayno which he did I would have

(01:07:47):
liked him to say okay, buthere's a really good
psychologist who's going to helpyou work through your symptoms
manually and hopefully come upwith strategies to do something.
But instead he just said no andhe didn't even do it nicely,
and then he just shoved me out.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
I don't like that because, like, this is people's
lives, you know, like, and Ifelt a bit like this the other
day at my psychiatry appointment, you know, because essentially,
the psychiatrist, by writingout the script for the
metazepine, the new medication,he essentially was signing off
on the waiver that says Elliotcannot be employed in the

(01:08:25):
transport and logistics industry, and that is a huge, huge thing
in my world.
And there was no discussionaround because I did bring it up
but it was very briefly sort oftouched on and then it was
ignored.
Moving forward, it's like Ineed a bit more guidance here

(01:08:46):
than just take this medication.
She'll be right Because, yeah,I don't know, I just, yeah, it's
hard, it's very hard, and Ifeel that you shouldn't have to
come in with a game plan andobviously you need to be able to
talk about what you feel isimportant to talk about.
But you know, like the way youand I are talking here right now
, we're essentially sayingwhether we're saying it

(01:09:09):
outspokenly or not which is,you've got to manipulate your
psychiatrist in order to gainthe results that you want and
need, whereas it shouldn't haveto be like that.
The psychiatrist should be ableto do all these things without
us having to lead them.
Like the whole idea of thetherapeutic relationship,

(01:09:31):
person-centered care, which ismade famous by Carl Rogers, a
famous psychologist, is that youand your therapist or doctor
are supposedly meant to walkside by side.
Right?
That's the metaphor or theimagery that's used.
You know, you don't lead thepsychiatrist to say, no, we're
going this way, but thepsychiatrist doesn't lead you

(01:09:54):
either and say, no, we're goingthis way.
You both walk side by side.
Together, you both have input,fair input, and together you
come up with the pathway forwardand then you both go that way,
if that makes sense.
A little bit abstract, butthat's the general idea.
And so often in thesesituations I've found that, well

(01:10:16):
, I certainly haven't beenleading the psychiatrist
anywhere.
I've been running behind andit's down a path that I'm not
particularly happy with, and inmy case, most recently, it was
essentially that I won't be ableto work in the transport
industry.
So you know, and that's a huge,huge life changing, altering

(01:10:37):
sort of moment, and it wasglossed over and like, yeah,
it's, yeah, I didn't.
I didn't particularly want thisepisode to be completely about
how terrible psychiatrists are.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
No, I'm so sorry, that's my fault, I just really
needed a good rant.

Speaker 1 (01:10:54):
No, no.
But at the same time I think itneeds to be said and it's good
that we're saying it.
It's just a shame that we bothfeel as though we need to talk
about it, because I think we'revery valid in what we're saying.
I think so.
I don't know by all meanseverybody.
If you're listening and youthink maybe we're off the mark,

(01:11:16):
send me a message.
You can do that on Instagram orFacebook.
But it is a big problem and it'sa big problem for a lot of
people, and it's especially aproblem when you're not able to
advocate for yourself as needed.
And so often that is the casebecause you know you can imagine
you go in and you're depressed.
So you're not really.
You know making much eyecontact, although if you're
autistic like me, that's, that'sthe norm anyway um, but you

(01:11:37):
know your shoulders are slumped,you're sort of mumbling words a
bit, you're not thinkingclearly.
You're certainly not able tocome up with labor intensive,
energy intensive.
You know arguments to try andget your point across.
You just got to do the bestthat you can, and that's why
it's so important that skilledmental health professionals are

(01:11:58):
able to see beyond that and seesome.
You know some other things thatmight be going on, that it's
that the patient is unable tobring to mind in that moment
because of the disorders.
But it's so difficult whenyou're not given the opportunity
to begin with to really explainhow you feel and where you'd

(01:12:18):
like to end up.
So, yeah, it's a tough one andit's good reason that we're
talking a lot about it on thisepisode, because we've both had
experiences like this veryrecently and it's a big problem.
It's not a big problem just foryou, it's not a big problem
just for me, and it's, I daresay, a big problem for a lot of

(01:12:38):
the listeners as well.
So, if you are listening andyou're finding it very difficult
to get your wishes across toyour mental health providers,
well, unfortunately I don't havethe answer to that just yet,
although, let me tell you, I'minvestigating and as soon as I
find out you'll be first to know.
But I am definitely in the sameboat, and Holly is,

(01:13:01):
unfortunately, as well.
Would you agree?

Speaker 2 (01:13:04):
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:13:05):
Yeah.
So yeah, this is a topic thatwill be revisited, and it needs
to be because, yeah, that wholedeficiency model, you know,
looking at the negatives andtrying to negate the negatives
but ignoring the positives youknow there's a whole school of
thought on positive psychology,which was Martin Seligman was

(01:13:27):
the psychologist who created it.
He used to be head of theAmerican Psychology Association.
And Martin Seligman was thepsychologist who created it.
He used to be head of theAmerican Psychology Association.
Anyway, positive psychology isthis big thing and it's all
about making your positives evenbetter, so your skills and
competencies, building on themto then create that life worth
living.

(01:13:48):
And I think in some ways,psychiatry needs to flow
psychology's lead and maybe lookat a bit further down the track
, even just plan on how longwe're going to be on these meds.
For as I sit here now, I'veseen so many psychiatrists and
on so many different medicationsI have no idea I may be on

(01:14:10):
these meds forever.
I don't know.
I hope not, because there'ssome longer term side effects
that don't look particularlypretty, but you know it's never
really been mentioned to me.
There's, you know, there's atimeframe on this and this is
the plan and it's just yeah, Idon't know.
It's very short term thinkingand very much focusing on the
supposed deficiencies of theindividual and not really

(01:14:33):
focusing on the wishes of theindividual, which is very
disempowering and does rob oneof their autonomy, which is not
a very good feeling.
Anyway, back on my soapboxagain, but that's just how I
feel.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
Good to get it out there.

Speaker 1 (01:14:49):
Yeah, it is, and it needs to be said because a lot
of us are going through it.
So it's hard, you know, likebecause I really want to get
back to the transport industry.
You know I really do.
Although mental health is, Iguess, my number one, road
transport is sort of my numbertwo, and my dream is always to

(01:15:10):
be able to combine both worlds,and it still is my dream.
So what I want to do at the endof it all is I want to do a big
research undertaking into thetransport and logistics industry
from a mental health,psychology point of view and try
and improve the horrendousmental health outcomes that

(01:15:31):
there are currently for thosemen and women who keep Australia
moving.
It's an industry that is plaguedby poor mental health and I'd
like to do something about itbecause I've been in the
industry, I've worked nightshifts, I've done all the
driving, the loading of trucks,done quite a bit, and then

(01:15:53):
obviously I've got thepsychology research side of
things, my degree, all that sortof stuff.
My dream is to put bothtogether, but I really wanted a
little bit more time in thesaddle, so to speak, before I
tried to combine the best ofboth worlds, but it appears that
may not happen, so back to thedrawing board.
But anyway, that's all right,that's okay, that's something

(01:16:14):
I'm dealing with.
So it's yeah, just got to keepon trucking.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
I think it's okay to be disappointed.
Like I know, I definitely whenI lost my job late last year, I
definitely was trying to makeplans to get back into the
workforce and then but nothing,none of the support worked of
what I wanted to do Really.
It just wasn't in my capacityanymore and unfortunately that I
feel like that was decided by apsychiatrist.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
So are you in regular psychology at the moment?

Speaker 2 (01:16:49):
Not at the moment.
I have an appointment inoctober with a private
psychologist.
It was really hard to find onewho specialized in bipolar or
schizophrenia or psychosis, alot of.
Not that any of this is surfacelevel, but like a lot of the
psychologists are like stress,life issues, grief, like I just

(01:17:10):
needed to go to a psychologistwho wouldn't freak out if I said
the word psychosis, so it justtook me a while to find someone.
But yeah, the appointment's inOctober, so I've got another
month or so to wait, just rawdog life without a psychologist.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
But at least you've got a date to sort of focus on
and look forward to.

Speaker 2 (01:17:29):
Yeah for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:17:32):
And it's just such a shame that psychology is so
expensive too.
Absolutely yeah, Because yousaid that you've been seeing a
private psychiatrist, whichobviously there's quite a large
fee, I would imagine, involvedin that.

Speaker 2 (01:17:46):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:17:47):
Whereas I'm seeing one in the public system.
So it's actually free for me.
But I'm sort of at the whim ofwhen they've got availability
and it's a bit different.
You sort of take what you canget a little bit because it's
just so expensive.
Looking after one's mentalhealth is so expensive.

Speaker 2 (01:18:03):
It is yeah.
So one of the suggestions thatwas made to me is that I go
through a private psych ward andthen try an ADHD medication, a
stimulant, and I was like, howam I supposed to afford?
I think it's like 30 grand forlike a week.

Speaker 1 (01:18:19):
It's insane or you go , you've got to be top cover
private health insurance.

Speaker 2 (01:18:24):
Yeah, which I obviously am not.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
Yeah, you've got to be gold cover to get psychiatry
included.
Unfortunately, I know that fromthe hard way when I was at
Maitland Private Hospital I'vespoken about that on here before
that obviously was a privateadmission but that did require
me to go to top cover privatehealth insurance, which sent me
broke, although I did have agreat experience up there.

(01:18:49):
But unfortunately I don't havethe money at the moment to be
able to afford that and that'swhy I'm doing as much as I can
in the public system.
Psychology I'm seeing privately.
But again, this is anotherthing that bugs me when it comes
to access to psychology,everyone's like in Australia I'm

(01:19:12):
talking this isn't just NewSouth Wales In Australia you can
get 10 rebated sessions to seea psychologist, and people who
aren't quite aware on how thatworks seem to assume that that
means you get 10 free sessionsand you don't get free sessions.

(01:19:32):
You've got to pay the upfrontamount first.
Then you get your Medicarerebate, which is not the full
price of the session.
So one of the major majorbarriers to being able to get
the care that you need is theprice and the lack of
affordability, and you've hadthat problem a bit in the past,

(01:19:58):
dare I say because we werespeaking before about how you
haven't been workingconsistently over, say, 10 years
or whatever.
Um, it's, it's very hard.
It's, it's just so difficultwhen you've got mental illness,
or mental illnesses depending onwhat they are, it doesn't

(01:20:19):
matter what they are.
All of them make the ability towork to your full potential,
you know, very, very difficultand often just unattainable.
And and yet these services thatwe're talking about to improve
your mental health cost a lot ofmoney.
So it's like you've got to beworking full time to afford the
therapy which will then allowyou to keep working full time.

(01:20:42):
And I don't know if you can seethe problem in that, but if
you're not able to work fulltime, like me at the moment, for
example, I can't afford to gosee the psychologist as much as
I am required to, because Ican't afford it, and then
everything starts to slowlydisintegrate from there.
And that's what I've beentrying to overcome the last

(01:21:04):
probably three weeks now.
Three weeks now.
Have you found the same problemthat it's hard to get, I guess,
a real solid routine in placeto get the help that you need to
be able to see the therapist asmuch as you need and a
psychiatrist as much as you needbecause of those, I guess,
socioeconomic factors.

Speaker 2 (01:21:25):
Definitely now.
Yes, but in the past I was inthe public system for almost two
years and I could like ifsomething wasn't working or if I
was having a bad day orwhatever, I could just ring and
I could speak to thepsychologist within.
Sometimes he was available atthe time, sometimes it was like
10 minutes an hour and then Icould talk to him and if I

(01:21:45):
needed to see a doctor then Icould see a psychiatrist within
a few days.
But since going into theprivate system and I'm not
working at the moment, yes, it'sincredibly hard.
That's why it's taken so long.
I haven't had psychologysessions in four months since
getting discharged from thepublic system and obviously
psychiatry is the main priorityfor me at the moment because

(01:22:07):
obviously my condition isn't,it's neurochemical, it's not
really psychology.
Obviously I can benefiteveryone can benefit from
psychology, but it's not themain point of my treatment.
So all of my savings have goneinto psychiatry.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
Yeah, I don't understand how and we've spoken
about this together often Idon't understand how you were
afforded the access that you didget in the public system and
how I haven't been able to me.

Speaker 2 (01:22:50):
So when Elliot first got into the public system and
got an appointment with a publicpsychiatrist, my first reaction
is, yes, he's going to getaccess to a public psychologist
and the psychiatrist and all thesocial workers and dieticians
and anything that he needs he'sgot.
He's got what I got, but thedifference is Elliot's with the
Newcastle team and I was withLake Macquarie and somehow Lake
Macquarie just seems to be somuch better and you know what,

(01:23:13):
if Elliot was like a postcodeover, he'd be in Lake Macquarie
jurisdiction or whatever youwant to call it.

Speaker 1 (01:23:19):
It's actually even more than that.
My street, where I live, isdivided.
My side of the street isNewcastle City Council or City
of Newcastle.
Across the road is City of LakeMacquarie.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
Really I didn't realise it was that close.

Speaker 1 (01:23:37):
Yeah, because just down the road from my street is
Boundary Road, which is theboundary, so that's how close it
is and could have changed somuch.
But anyway, it is what it is.
But yeah, it's, I don't knowit's it's.
Yeah, I've always like,obviously I'm not, I'm glad that

(01:23:59):
you got that help.
That's brilliant, you know, andso you bloody should you know,
of course.
But I do wonder why sometimes Inever was afforded that
opportunity and I've always beena bit bemused by that, like
where's my social worker?
Or you know where's my personthat organizes all my
appointments and when I need toget my medications, and I don't

(01:24:22):
know.
All I can think of is it mustcome back to my level of insight
, because every single mentalhealth I don't even have to be a
professional, just anyonethat's, I don't know.
We've all got experience withmental health.
So so many people say, oh, youknow, the insight is so great,
you know, and I can only assumemaybe that it's my level of

(01:24:46):
insight has steered me away fromthose sorts of services or
access to those services.
But I don't know, it's aninteresting one.
But we've spoken about thisbefore, about how our
trajectories in the publicsystem has been so different.
And yeah, I don't know.
I still can't figure out whythat is.

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
I don't know yeah like even I had group sessions,
so I did two.
I did one that was ACT fordon't know.
Yeah, like even I had groupsessions, so I did two.
I did one that was ACT forpsychosis, which is do you know
what it stands for?
Acceptance and commitmenttherapy.
Yeah, that one.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:25:18):
And then I did another one on like like mood
regulation stuff.
So I did, I did two groups.
I saw a psychiatrist every week, I saw a psychologist twice a
week for a couple of monthsthere when things were bad, and
I had a dietician that helped mewith the weight gain of
olanzapine and I had a socialworker making sure that I wasn't
going to lose my housing, likeI just.

(01:25:40):
I had a job provider who washelping me get things off
Centrelink, like the five grandfor moving away and shit like
that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:48):
Jeez, that'd be a hard.

Speaker 2 (01:25:49):
Five grand yeah, so I just got all the help that I
needed in this one place andthey were so good about it once
I finally accepted the help, andI just find it so frustrating
that either Newcastle isn't thesame or they're discriminating
against BPD.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:26:10):
That's what I wonder.

Speaker 2 (01:26:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:26:12):
That's what I wonder.
I think it could be partly theBPD stigma that we spoke about
at the start of the episode, butalso, I think it's still that
level of insight, because I'vegot the insight straight away.
It's just like, oh look, hecan't be that bad.
You know he's still got a gripon reality, you know he's all

(01:26:33):
right, even though I'm not.
But yeah, that is somethingthat we've always found a bit
interesting, haven't we?

Speaker 2 (01:26:40):
Yeah, it's just so infuriating for me because I
almost end up feeling guiltythat I got such good help for
those two years and now I'mstable and I'm not thriving, but
I'm not hating life like.
I'm kind of in the middle youshould definitely, never, ever
feel guilty for that.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
Just I know.
I say to you all the time I'mgoing to say it again there is
no need to feel guilty.
You got the help that youdeserved and was rightfully
yours 100%.
And they did well by you forthe most part, even if the
psychiatry component has been abit limiting, you could say.
But holistically, the systemactually did quite a good job by

(01:27:21):
you, which is great.
It just needs to do such a goodjob for everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
Exactly by you, which is great.
It just needs to do such a goodjob for everybody, exactly, and
it's like I hate it becausethey probably I know that they
sit in their meetings everymorning and they go through all
of their people that they've goton for today and they basically
have a rant session.
I'm sure it's more professionalthan that, but they talk about
all the patients there.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
Yeah, that Elliot guy .
He keeps talking about theNewcastle Knights he just won't
shut up about it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:27:49):
Yeah, but they're more likely saying Elliot's so
insightful, he's not suicidal,like he's not a risk to anybody,
so therefore we can have a20-minute appointment, shove him
out and then we move on to theperson who this word I hate is
more severe because it's notsevere.
Person who this word I hate ismore severe because it's not
severe.
Everybody, nobody, has a mentalillness that is more severe.

(01:28:11):
They're just different indifferent ways.
Anxiety is absolutely ascrippling as schizophrenia, it's
just in different ways.

Speaker 1 (01:28:20):
It is, and you mentioned about the suicidality.
Then there have been timeswhere I have been suicidal, more
recently actually, I think Iwas telling you this yesterday
when I was on the phone to youabout how I told the
psychiatrist that I now had aplan, which I will not be going

(01:28:42):
into details.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
But when?
Elliot?

Speaker 1 (01:28:44):
told me this.

Speaker 2 (01:28:45):
It just makes me want to fight the system, because
how the hell can you tellsomeone that you have a plan and
then they're like on our CEO,like off you go?
Why is there no follow-up?
Why is there no community teamcoming to your house making sure
you're safe?

Speaker 1 (01:28:59):
Yeah, and I've been referred to this acute community
team many times before and theyjust don't ring.
So I just, yeah, I don't know.
And even more recently, when Isaid there was a plan, which
there was a couple of weeks ago,because I was going through a
very, very difficult time, andyou know, I fully expect that

(01:29:20):
it's going to swing back aroundagain and I'm going to go
through this terrible time,because you know, this is the
nature of my, my mental health,which is, um, there's this very
short run sort of short-term upsand downs, the bpd sort of
stuff, but there is still thoselonger, those elongated mood
disturbances of feelings ofthings are going okay and then

(01:29:43):
I'll dip down for a couple ofweeks and things will be really
difficult and there's no reasonthat I can think of that would
suggest that that's not comingagain.
But even then, when I said thatI was almost too insightful
because the way I was talking,like I knew the ins and outs and
the consequences and all thisdifferent stuff, and that played

(01:30:07):
against me.
So I don't know, maybe nexttime I'll just won't talk, maybe
I don't know.
But anyway, we'll see.
We'll see what happens.
But the story is I guess youare getting help, but you would
like help in some different wayswhich would enrich your life,
which is the difficult part.
Would that be fair to say?

Speaker 2 (01:30:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:28):
Yeah, I would like some help even though I am
getting some help, but I wouldlike some help to also be able
to do things that would enrichmy life, like get off all these
sedating medications and thenget back into the career that I
would really love to get stuckinto.
I get back into the career thatI would really love to get
stuck into.
What else has been happening,though, for your mental health?

(01:30:50):
Before we wrap up, how are thedoggies going?

Speaker 2 (01:30:54):
Yeah, the dogs are really good.

Speaker 1 (01:30:55):
I got a puppy in June we haven't met yet, so we need
to sort that out once we finishrecording.

Speaker 2 (01:31:02):
Yeah, so he's beautiful.
Because I'm not working, I'vebeen trying to find, find like
fucking listening to what thepsychiatrist and psychologists
have told me like find positivethings in life.
So I decided I would raise apuppy while I'm not working and
then focus very hard on exerciseand eating healthy, making sure
I get my two fruits, three vegor whatever it is making, make

(01:31:24):
sure I drink three bottles ofwater, like just real basic
stuff, like just making sure Ican get everything in a real
good routine and habits, andthen try and look for work
that's not going to.
I think a big trigger for myepisodes is stress.
So if I'm going to work a jobthat's stressful, I'm way more

(01:31:47):
likely to swing one way or theother in terms.
So that's just.
It's slightly frustratingbecause I would love to go back
to support work and do what Iused to do, but realistically
I'm probably going to end upworking at Woolies three days a
week and just having anon-stressful, very boring life,
because if I introduce stressinto my life I just spiral in

(01:32:07):
either direction.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:32:08):
But at the same time, yes, maybe you may need to go
to Woolies and do that for alittle bit, which isn't your
chosen, I guess, career, but atthe same time it can definitely
be a foundation to build upon.
And I guess that's sort of whatI'm trying to do too, which is,
you know, use my work at themoment and then springboard into

(01:32:29):
another area which isn't goingto be the transport industry, it
seems.
So I'm going full tilt into themental health world, into being
a hopefully a researcher orsome sort of keynote speaker
advocate.
I don't know, maybe thispodcast will take off, who knows
?
Hell yeah, but yeah, it's goodthat the doggos are going well

(01:32:55):
and my therapy animal, Mabel thecat.
She tolerates me, which ispretty good all things
considered.

Speaker 2 (01:33:02):
I've met your cat.
She looks beautiful, but Iobviously haven't seen her
personality.

Speaker 1 (01:33:07):
She's lovely, but I show too much love and I smother
her with my love and, I don'tknow, for some reason she
doesn't enjoy it when I get inher personal space without
asking.
So I don't know.
Maybe there's something toremember in that, maybe.

Speaker 2 (01:33:23):
My dogs love it.
The more I'm close to them, thebetter yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:28):
Yeah, so, looking down the track, we'll finish up
shortly.
So this has been really goodbecause, yeah, just to reiterate
to everybody and if you'restill listening right now, thank
you for listening through,because these episodes are going
to be very unstructured, youknow, like it's just having a
chat about how things have been,essentially talking about all

(01:33:51):
things mental health andeverything related, but without
any sort of well.
There's no real scripts used onthis show anyway, because you
know, this is the most genuine,honest, vulnerable and fair
dinkum podcast on all theinternet.
So there's no scripts, it justcomes from the heart.
But at the same time, theseconversations the idea is that

(01:34:14):
it's just going to be free,flowing and who knows where we
end up.
But whatever we cover, we coverit and you come along for the
journey too.
And, by all means, if you feelas though a lot of this
resonates with you, feel free toreach out to me on Instagram,
at elliotttwaters, or onFacebook by searching the

(01:34:35):
Dysregulated Podcast.
Message me on there and Ipromise I'll reply as quick as I
can.
Of course, remembering mysocial capacity has its problems
, so if I do take a little bitto reply, don't take it
personally is all I'm sayingthat is well and truly an Elliot
thing, unfortunately.

(01:34:56):
But this is a new segment and Iwould like to involve as many
people as I can, I suppose,because, yeah, there's a lot to
be said about this topic andthere's a lot more that we could
certainly go on, and I dare saythis will be the first of a few
episodes that Holly and I dotogether.
Of course, holly has beeninterviewed as part of the

(01:35:18):
Intake interview seriespreviously, so I highly highly
recommend listening to thatepisode.
It is a beauty.
But if you would like to beinterviewed on the show or be a
part of the conversation seriesagain, feel free to reach out to
me on social media and we canget that happening, because the

(01:35:40):
more people that we get on thisshow, the broader the scope of
understanding around mentalillness, and that's a good thing
for all of us.
And it's a good thing for metoo, because I love listening to
other people's stories andlearning so much.
It's a great privilege and anhonour.
So if you're interested, pleaselet me know.
But anyway, holly, any lastwords before we go.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
Just if you ever want to reach out to me and have a
chat about literally anythingunder the sun, just let Elliot
know and we can connect, becauseI'd love to connect with some
of you all the listeners andhear your stories and your
opinions and everything onmental health and anything else
that's going on in your life.

Speaker 1 (01:36:19):
I would love to connect with you, yeah, yeah
because I think sharing the loadyou know, helping carrying each
other's burdens that little bitis so important and it can be
as simple as just having anawareness around what the other
person's going through.
That in itself, you know thatcommon understanding can mean so

(01:36:40):
much and change so many things,and that's simply through
talking and communicating Likeit's a pretty powerful tool.
The old have a conversation.
I know it's well, it's probablynot cliche, but it is very true
that, yeah, having aconversation can change a life,
and Holly and I are more thanhappy to engage in conversations

(01:37:04):
around this sort of stuff.
Let me tell you, absolutelyit's interesting too.
You made a good comment.
So this episode has beenrecorded at the University of
Newcastle in the special podcaststudio which the university has
that I somehow have access to.
So let's hope that continues.
But Holly made a funny commentas we walked in that, um, it was

(01:37:27):
, it's, it's like a padded room.
Um, because it is a padded roomin the sense that you know it's
.
It's got all the soundinsulation stuff on the wall and
everything like that.
But yeah, it is, it did.
When I first come in here, itreminded me of a padded room too
, so it's quite a fitting littleenvironment, I feel to be
talking about this sort of stuffI 100 agree um so, but

(01:37:52):
thankfully this padded room hasa door that we can open from the
inside, so we can leavewhenever we want.

Speaker 2 (01:37:58):
So that's good, it's good um, but yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:38:01):
so thank you everybody for listening to the
new segment, the InConversations With series.
Thank you, holly, for coming onthe show again.
As always, I appreciate it andwe're going to do it again,
hopefully sooner rather thanlater, so thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:38:16):
I really enjoyed it.
It's really good.

Speaker 1 (01:38:18):
Yeah, cool.
And, like I said, if you guyshave any comments or would like
to reach out to me or to Holly,reach out to me via social media
.
And if you'd like to be a partof the show, whether that be
through the intake interviewswhere we have a look at your
story and how things haveprogressed to today, or whether
it's in one of these more laidback episodes where we're just

(01:38:42):
chewing the fat on mental health, you let me know and let's make
it happen.
So until next time.
Thank you for listening.
If you're enjoying the show,feel free to like, subscribe,
give the show a great ratingbecause it's great for the
algorithm, and you can share theshow around with your mates.
And you can follow me onInstagram at elliotttwaters, and
you can also follow the show onfacebook by searching the

(01:39:06):
dysregulated podcast.
All right, thank you, hollythank you no worries, we'll do
it all again soon.
Thanks everybody, bye.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}In Conversation With...#1 - Holly